Cut in Food Subsidy-denounce this

[dahiyars]

Denounce This Retrograde Move
The UPA government’s decision to cut the food subsidy by Rs. 4524 crore by reducing the quantity of wheat and rice issued through the PDS and Antyodaya Anna Yojana is a very retrograde move which is a betrayal of the UPA government’s commitment to the people. This will adversely affect hundreds of millions of people at a time when calorie consumption is already declining and nutritional deficiencies are on the increase, especially among the poor.
It is shocking that the BPL and Antyodaya families will be getting 5 kg less foodgrains per month. Instead of enlarging the scope of the PDS, this amounts to reducing its spread and reducing the access of ordinary people to basic nutrition.
Further, this move will limit the turnover of the Food Corporation of India and affect its ability to undertake procurement at minimum support prices of crops. At a time when farmers continue to reel under severe agrarian crisis, the attempt should be to ensure stable prices through procurement
R.S.Dahiya

[dahiyarules]

THANK GOODNESS FOR THE GOOD NEWS.

I am completely in favor of the government cutting any and all subsidies.


I didnt even read your post Mr. RS Dahiya. Because socialists like you rant meaningless crap, right in the face of free marketeers and voluntaryists like me.

It has been prove beyond all limits by economics, that subsidies hurt everyone including those who get them.

If you are s interested in giving free money to people, go and do it at your own expense. Subsidies are forced down the necks of those who dont support them, but are forced to fork out the money and resources.

Once again, we must celebrate everytime Government takes a step out of our private lives and personal welfare.

Less Government = More individual freedom = More Prosperity.

Put this in your head.

[atul.jhajhria]

@Ranbir: I agree with you, this indeed is bad news and will adversly affect millions of people. Infact Jats will be among worst hit when they cut the subsidy. :(

@sumit: please read the post properly before writing vague response's :rolleyes:

[rkumar]

THANK GOODNESS FOR THE GOOD NEWS.

I am completely in favor of the government cutting any and all subsidies.


I didnt even read your post Mr. RS Dahiya. Because socialists like you rant meaningless crap, right in the face of free marketeers and voluntaryists like me.

It has been prove beyond all limits by economics, that subsidies hurt everyone including those who get them.

If you are s interested in giving free money to people, go and do it at your own expense. Subsidies are forced down the necks of those who dont support them, but are forced to fork out the money and resources.

Once again, we must celebrate everytime Government takes a step out of our private lives and personal welfare.

Less Government = More individual freedom = More Prosperity.

Put this in your head.

I am totally with you Sumit on this. Countries who run on international aids, rarely progress. SC/STs who have been getting reservations in government posts, have not come up the development ladder even in 60 years. This reminds me of Raheem Khankhana's famous doha;

" Rahiman wo nar mar chuke, jo kahin mangan jai"

RK^2

[atul.jhajhria]

Countries who run on international aids, rarely progress. SC/STs who have been getting reservations in government posts, have not come up the development ladder even in 60 years. This reminds me of Raheem Khankhana's famous doha;
RK^2

We are talking about subsidies, not international aids. International community is always against most of the subsidies government provides.

Also subsidies does not mean we are getting something which we dont deserve. Subsidies are aimed to wipe out competition from the market.

If you think countries who get subsidies rarely progress then think again. USA gives largest sum of subsidy to its farmers in whole world :). Other countries like Canada and european nations has biggest problem with it and always cries foul.

Apart from agriculture, there are lots of example where subsidy has done wonders for their countries. The most prominent example is Airbus. It was so much subsidized that it not only finished boing's dominance but became dominant itself. :)

Its so amusing to see people of developing countries raising concerns for subsidies in their own country when developed countries are continuously giving huge subsidies to their farmers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricultural_subsidy

From this article only read these texts
The main criticism of these programs is that they promote poverty in developing countries since those economies depend on their agricultural production and they can't compete with subsided and therefore low priced commodities. Another criticism is that the same funds could be spent on other goverment activities such as crime control, education, military defense, etc.

It is developed countries who need to cut the subsidies, not developing countries.

Giving food to poor should not be related to SC/ST reservation. It is a part of humanity and developing country like India do need to feed its poor people. Any type of subsidy is welcome :).

[rameshlakra]

There was a long debate carried out in parliament before this exercise and the highlighted views brought out by general sentiments are:-

1) People who actualy are BPl,do not posses ration cards(true for most of the cases) and hence are never benefitted by PDS.

2) Most of the PDS lands up either in wrong hands or gets sourced to open market by corrupt practices.

In large the whole PDS business is not succesful and we should be open to try out new things in order to make it effective and cutting subsidy could be one.

[mukeshkumar007]

Less Government = More individual freedom = More Prosperity.



Adim Smith's rule of mid 19th century can't be implemented in present senario, specially in India....


If you think countries who get subsidies rarely progress then think again. USA gives largest sum of subsidy to its farmers in whole world . Other countries like Canada and european nations has biggest problem with it and always cries foul.
Apart from agriculture, there are lots of example where subsidy has done wonders for their countries. The most prominent example is Airbus. It was so much subsidized that it not only finished boing's dominance but became dominant itself.


I fully agree with you Atul.

[dahiyarules]

Ok Mr. Atul. Here is my take on your post.

I am unable to understand whether you are in support of, or against competition.

On one hand you seem to tell us that subsidies help wipe out competition, which in your view is a good thing. On the other hand you cite the example of Airbus, that wiped out the dominance of Boeing by getting subsidies, which again in your view was a good thing to happen. Did'nt this create a fresh competion in the Airliner market, which you seem to be in favor of.

Yaar! make up your mind, and let us know if you think competition is good or bad.

Coming back to subsidies, I wold like to cite the example of sugar production in the United States. It is a very commonly discussed issue in most basic and advanced level Microeconomics courses.

Foreign sugar producers are able to sel sugar at much lower prices to consumers in the US, in comparison to the domestic sugar producers. The domestic sugar producers manage to get heavy tarriffs levied on imported sugar, and get heavy subisidies for their own production operations, while getting a price floor on sugar prices. This means that the domestic sugar producers eliminate foreign competion, and get tonnes of free monies in terms of free subsidies. Now those who think that the consumer would benefit indirectly because of this nature of domestic producers, are completely wrong. Because of price floors, domestic sugar producers manager to charge prices over a certain level for their produce. Thus the whole concept of benefits trickling down to the consumer goes to trash, as domestic sugar producers thicken their pockets at the cost of consumers and foreign producers.

A very small group of people who form the US doemstic sugar producers benefit from subsidies and other eocnomic evils like tarrifs and price floors. While a large number of domestic consumers suffer due to high sugar prices. Finally, the foreign producers of sugar sufer too, as they loose a major chunk of the "US sugar consumption pie."

Thus we end up with a producer surplus for domestic sugar producers at the cost of welfare of the domestic sugar consumers.

Where do subsidies come from?

Governments tax citizens. The tax money funds subsidies that are disbursed to special interest groups. But subsidies come at a cost to these special interest groups. They hire PR firms and lobby firms to noose the government into giving them subsidies. Such activity costs money. In the above example, the special interest group is "Domestic Sugar Producers of America." They pay the PR firms and lobby firms insane amount of money to get free money from the government, which in your words means "subsidies." The PR firm and Lobby firm fees come out of the subsidy money. To put it together, tax payers pay special interest group free money, and also pay the special interst groups' PR firms and Lobby firms which help subsidies happen. All they get in return is highly priced commodities. So, in a way consumers or tax payers pay to get themselves screwed at the end of the day.

I do not find it the right platform to disemburse all the theory that proves my point that "subsidies" are evil." Those with sound mental capabilities would have got my point by now.

My entire understanding of economics is based on voluntaryism. No one but you knows whats best for you. That is why you should be in charge of making decisions that affect you. Governments and other authoritative institutions make decisions that help their personal needs and quest for power. Everyday, government officials all over the world are nailed for passing personal favors to their near and dear ones, at the cost of their constituents.

Competion is healthy. It provides consumers with choice. I believe that you are a consumer too several times, every day of your life. You choose where to live. You choose what clothes to buy. You choose what food to eat. You choose the phone company. You choose among several brands. You choose what car to buy. and on and on.

Competition provides consumers to decide the configuration that satisfies their personal needs, keeping in mind their bare necessities and budgeting abilities. Competion filters out inefficiency. Only those who are willing to provide goods and services at prices that the consumers are willing to pay survive the competition. I am sure that you wont like a producer or service provider that fails to provide you with goods and services that fail to meet your expectations, and also make you pay beyond your ability.

Price ceilings, price floors, rationing, subsidies, tarrifs etc. are hallmarks of socialism. The only reason that socialism in its purest form didnt even survice a century was because rational people have no tolerance for social elements that come at the cost of their individual or economic liberty.

The only reason that some of these elements still "parasite" upon our society is becuase they are passed on to us by the government as 'sugar laced sour pills." When people are explained in detail what these conepts actually stand for, and do to our societies, atleast the rational ones instantly oppose them. That is why their is a very strong oppostion to government's taxation policies in the United States. But people fail to get their economic liberty from the government, because the institution of government has become more powerful than people can handle.

This is a question that I ask most people that give them a reason to rethink their ideas. Let me repaeat a conversation between me and my brother, that will get accross the point.

How much taxes do you pay every year. he told me that last year they deducted $18000 from his paycheck. I asked him, if he was happy about it. He said: noway. So I gave him an option. If you had the option to pay just half of what you paid last year, would you pay it? He was like, ofcourse. What if instead of paying the IRS (Internal Revenue Services) would you stop a homeless bum every year, and give him the $ 9000? To this he said, you must be out of my mind. But he got my point. Government takes money from you and gives it away to bums who are nothing but unproductive elements in our society. If you had the option, you wont pay taxes, because you know that you have btter uses for that money, than the governmentdoes. I do not know of anyone who pays taxes happily. I wonder though, if you hop all the way to the tax office eveyr year, with a smile on your face and a daisy flower in your hair.

Look Atul, you must be really upset by the way I critique arguments. But then I have no tollerance for irrationality and bad logic. Socialism falls under those categories. I am sure we still have a lot of things in common that cam make us good friends.


We are talking about subsidies, not international aids. International community is always against most of the subsidies government provides.

Also subsidies does not mean we are getting something which we dont deserve. Subsidies are aimed to wipe out competition from the market.

If you think countries who get subsidies rarely progress then think again. USA gives largest sum of subsidy to its farmers in whole world :). Other countries like Canada and european nations has biggest problem with it and always cries foul.

Apart from agriculture, there are lots of example where subsidy has done wonders for their countries. The most prominent example is Airbus. It was so much subsidized that it not only finished boing's dominance but became dominant itself. :)

Its so amusing to see people of developing countries raising concerns for subsidies in their own country when developed countries are continuously giving huge subsidies to their farmers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricultural_subsidy

From this article only read these texts
The main criticism of these programs is that they promote poverty in developing countries since those economies depend on their agricultural production and they can't compete with subsided and therefore low priced commodities. Another criticism is that the same funds could be spent on other goverment activities such as crime control, education, military defense, etc.

It is developed countries who need to cut the subsidies, not developing countries.
..

[atul.jhajhria]

There was a long debate carried out in parliament before this exercise and the highlighted views brought out by general sentiments are:-

1) People who actualy are BPl,do not posses ration cards(true for most of the cases) and hence are never benefitted by PDS.

2) Most of the PDS lands up either in wrong hands or gets sourced to open market by corrupt practices.

In large the whole PDS business is not succesful and we should be open to try out new things in order to make it effective and cutting subsidy could be one.

If government says that most of BPl dont have ration card and hence cant be benifitted then why its not doing anything to give those BPl people ration card. Isn't its a failure of Government.

If most of PDS lands up in wrong hands then isn't it a fault of government. Why they are not ensuring that it reaches to right hands.

Its like saying: Since the money we provide to develop infrastructure does not result in much development so we wont give any money at all.

However if there is other way to help BPl people then government should metion it specifically. Government has not stated that they are reducing subsidies because they have found another way of giving food to poor. :rolleyes:

The food subsidy is one of the most essential subisdy. It help all those BPl people to live. This is most humanitarian work and the governement should not cut subsidy on this. :)

[dahiyarules]

[QUOTE=mukeshkumar007]Adim Smith's rule of mid 19th century can't be implemented in present senario, specially in India....

Mukesh Yaar!

Let me correct you here. Adam Smith was a 18th century thinker, and not a 19th century thinker. His ideas ar still very much in application all over the place. Goto www.adamsmith.org

Isnt it amazing that Adam Smith outlived Karl Marx by several centuries. This sounds like a good enough litmus test, to me. The one that outlives the other is better and more logical.

The revolution that Adam Smith started led to the prosperity of the west. Thats why US, Canada, UK and other western nations are so prosperous, that millions flock to these countries every year. They offer more opportunities to individuals. So many opportunities, that they are able to absorb outsiders to benefit from these opportunities. How many people do you think Soviet Union absorbed and provide them with opportunities.

Guys! I just want you to have an open mind. Just listen for once for what what ideas others have to offer, and the reasoning behind those ideas.

Believe me, I can prove ya'll wrong on just everything that you back up with a socialist leaning reasoning, and cite it with very much valid examples.

[dahiyarules]

My question is: If you want to feed underprevilidged people, why dont you do it at your own expense? Go and give them money from your own pocket. Why are you forcing it down the neck of other taxpayers, who may not support subsidies.

I want this question answered, and not looked over, just like you usually do.

If government says that most of BPl dont have ration card and hence cant be benifitted then why its not doing anything to give those BPl people ration card. Isn't its a failure of Government.

If most of PDS lands up in wrong hands then isn't it a fault of government. Why they are not ensuring that it reaches to right hands.

Its like saying: Since the money we provide to develop infrastructure does not result in much development so we wont give any money at all.

However if there is other way to help BPl people then government should metion it specifically. Government has not stated that they are reducing subsidies because they have found another way of giving food to poor. :rolleyes:

The food subsidy is one of the most essential subisdy. It help all those BPl people to live. This is most humanitarian work and the governement should not cut subsidy on this. :)

[atul.jhajhria]

Ok Mr. Atul. Here is my take on your post.

I am unable to understand whether you are in support of, or against competition.

On one hand you seem to tell us that subsidies help wipe out competition, which in your view is a good thing. On the other hand you cite the example of Airbus, that wiped out the dominance of Boeing by getting subsidies, which again in your view was a good thing to happen. Did'nt this create a fresh competion in the Airliner market, which you seem to be in favor of.

Yaar! make up your mind, and let us know if you think competition is good or bad.
Dude, its not that tough.:D Giving subsidy or cutting subsidy depends upon the health of a Nation. Since we are talking in context to India. Providing subsidy is only option to win in international market.

This only means that i am in favour of subsidy.


Foreign sugar producers are able to sell sugar at much lower prices to consumers in the US, in comparison to the domestic sugar producers. The domestic sugar producers manage to get heavy tarriffs levied on imported sugar, and get heavy subisidies for their own production operations, while getting a price floor on sugar prices. This means that the domestic sugar producers eliminate foreign competion, and get tonnes of free monies in terms of free subsidies. Now those who think that the consumer would benefit indirectly because of this nature of domestic producers, are completely wrong. Because of price floors, domestic sugar producers manager to charge prices over a certain level for their produce. Thus the whole concept of benefits trickling down to the consumer goes to trash, as domestic sugar producers thicken their pockets at the cost of consumers and foreign producers.

A very small group of people who form the US doemstic sugar producers benefit from subsidies and other eocnomic evils like tarrifs and price floors. While a large number of domestic consumers suffer due to high sugar prices. Finally, the foreign producers of sugar sufer too, as they loose a major chunk of the "US sugar consumption pie."

Thus we end up with a producer surplus for domestic sugar producers at the cost of welfare of the domestic sugar consumers.
Thats a valid point but incomplete. ;)

When domestic sugar producers gets advantage,its advantage is not finished at domestic level. The whole purpose of subsidies is not just to win domestic market, its real aim is to win international market. They(domestic producers) get so much advantage that they are able to kill competiton in foreign market too. :). For example, if there is US domestic producer A and is heavily subsidize, then it will reduce the price in International market so much that most of the countires will buy sugar from A. Doing this A has not only grabbed the market but it has caused to rethink the startegy in other countries. If a government like India see's that it no longer able to stand A's competiton it will not promote sugercae production in the country. Farmers will not get right price and will switch on their own. Next year, the cometiton is cut by x%. This is the way to dominance.

However many times governemnt of other countries subsidze just to kill off A. :)

You have to think from Indian point of view.



Where do subsidies come from?

Governments tax citizens. The tax money funds subsidies that are disbursed to special interest groups. But subsidies come at a cost to these special interest groups. They hire PR firms and lobby firms to noose the government into giving them subsidies. Such activity costs money. In the above example, the special interest group is "Domestic Sugar Producers of America." They pay the PR firms and lobby firms insane amount of money to get free money from the government, which in your words means "subsidies." The PR firm and Lobby firm fees come out of the subsidy money. To put it together, tax payers pay special interest group free money, and also pay the special interst groups' PR firms and Lobby firms which help subsidies happen. All they get in return is highly priced commodities. So, in a way consumers or tax payers pay to get themselves screwed at the end of the day.
Here you are seeing only one side of the coin.

Any money Government has comes from people only. Its true that subsidy come from taxes only. However you fail to see other side of the coin.

Its not a matter of choice always, sometimes its matter of survival and sometimes its a matter of sustainence and sometime its the matter of dominance. ;)

Every industry try its best to get subsidies from the governemnt. You just pointed about sugercane industry. Actually everyone wants subsides and its where government is deciding factor. Governement is not a blind as you made it out. It considers all pros and cons before subsidizing any sector.

If money could have bought everything then tobacco industry wuld have everything by now.:) Its not that easy

I do not find it the right platform to disemburse all the theory that proves my point that "subsidies" are evil." Those with sound mental capabilities would have got my point by now.
Actually its other way around :p

My entire understanding of economics is based on voluntaryism. No one but you knows whats best for you. That is why you should be in charge of making decisions that affect you. Governments and other authoritative institutions make decisions that help their personal needs and quest for power. Everyday, government officials all over the world are nailed for passing personal favors to their near and dear ones, at the cost of their constituents.

Competion is healthy. It provides consumers with choice. I believe that you are a consumer too several times, every day of your life. You choose where to live. You choose what clothes to buy. You choose what food to eat. You choose the phone company. You choose among several brands. You choose what car to buy. and on and on.

Competition provides consumers to decide the configuration that satisfies their personal needs, keeping in mind their bare necessities and budgeting abilities. Competion filters out inefficiency. Only those who are willing to provide goods and services at prices that the consumers are willing to pay survive the competition. I am sure that you wont like a producer or service provider that fails to provide you with goods and services that fail to meet your expectations, and also make you pay beyond your ability.

Price ceilings, price floors, rationing, subsidies, tarrifs etc. are hallmarks of socialism. The only reason that socialism in its purest form didnt even survice a century was because rational people have no tolerance for social elements that come at the cost of their individual or economic liberty.

The only reason that some of these elements still "parasite" upon our society is becuase they are passed on to us by the government as 'sugar laced sour pills." When people are explained in detail what these conepts actually stand for, and do to our societies, atleast the rational ones instantly oppose them. That is why their is a very strong oppostion to government's taxation policies in the United States. But people fail to get their economic liberty from the government, because the institution of government has become more powerful than people can handle.

This is a question that I ask most people that give them a reason to rethink their ideas. Let me repaeat a conversation between me and my brother, that will get accross the point.

How much taxes do you pay every year. he told me that last year they deducted $18000 from his paycheck. I asked him, if he was happy about it. He said: noway. So I gave him an option. If you had the option to pay just half of what you paid last year, would you pay it? He was like, ofcourse. What if instead of paying the IRS (Internal Revenue Services) would you stop a homeless bum every year, and give him the $ 9000? To this he said, you must be out of my mind. But he got my point. Government takes money from you and gives it away to bums who are nothing but unproductive elements in our society. If you had the option, you wont pay taxes, because you know that you have btter uses for that money, than the governmentdoes. I do not know of anyone who pays taxes happily. I wonder though, if you hop all the way to the tax office eveyr year, with a smile on your face and a daisy flower in your hair.

You are very much confused my dear friend

In short i will explain you: You cant live a happy life if you dont give away some part of your earned money. The $ which you gave to bums is as important as giving subsidies ;). And not everything goes to bums.

Look Atul, you must be really upset by the way I critique arguments. But then I have no tollerance for irrationality and bad logic. Socialism falls under those categories. I am sure we still have a lot of things in common that cam make us good friends.
I am as cool as ever was :). I am sure there is atleast one thing that makes us good friend :D

[atul.jhajhria]

My question is: If you want to feed underprevilidged people, why dont you do it at your own expense? Go and give them money from your own pocket. Why are you forcing it down the neck of other taxpayers, who may not support subsidies.

I want this question answered, and not looked over, just like you usually do.

Only a part of tax money goes to under privilidged, not everything.

However to answer your question:
The situation when you can afford not to give any money to underprivelged is when you have strict capatilism. Since no country(including US) has that type of government that is not possible.

why its not possible?
Every government understands that it had to maintain some minimum balance between poor and rich. The moment that balance breaks they will risk of breaking their own country. It may lead to disintegration of a country if gap between rich and poor is too much.

No one wants to give any money to poor people, not for free :). Its not a matter of choice.

Either feed those millions of hungry people or they will cause enough damage to your economy that you may never come out of it.

Also government hopes that some of them may rise above BPl to enter into main stream.

Even USA is little bit socialist country and it has to be ;)

Apart from economic matters there are other reasons too. Not many people wants to see their fellow countryman dying because they cant afford to buy food. Humans are not that cruel my friend.

..

[dahiyarules]

Read your response Atul. You said the same thing again using different words.

I dont consider you worthy enough to be converted into a voluntaryist.

Keep sticking to your guns. And I will stick to mine.

At the end of the day, the one with more sound ideas will be the last man standing. Adam Smith proves my point.


Only a part of tax money goes to under privilidged, not everything.

However to answer your question:
The situation when you can afford not to give any money to underprivelged is when you have strict capatilism. Since no country(including US) has that type of government that is not possible.

why its not possible?
Every government understands that it had to maintain some minimum balance between poor and rich. The moment that balance breaks they will risk of breaking their own country. It may lead to disintegration of a country if gap between rich and poor is too much.

No one wants to give any money to poor people, not for free :). Its not a matter of choice.

Either feed those millions of hungry people or they will cause enough damage to your economy that you may never come out of it.

Also government hopes that some of them may rise above BPl to enter into main stream.

Even USA is little bit socialist country and it has to be ;)

Apart from economic matters there are other reasons too. Not many people wants to see their fellow countryman dying because they cant afford to buy food. Humans are not that cruel my friend.

..

[atul.jhajhria]

Read your response Atul. You said the same thing again using different words.

I dont consider you worthy enough to be converted into a voluntaryist.

Keep sticking to your guns. And I will stick to mine.

At the end of the day, the one with more sound ideas will be the last man standing. Adam Smith proves my point.

I knew you will get angry after reading my post :). Infact its not your fault but its a general human tendency. They dont want to loose :rolleyes:.

However the moment you open your mind you will see that you were wrong.

According to you: i said same thing using different words. I would say i only explained it in detail to make you understand :p

I frankly dont understand what you have against my views. I provided counter view and explained them too but you seems to have closed your mind. I read your post and i presented counter view, i expect same from you. Tell me where you have not understood or you think i am wrong. Just saying that i will stick to my views and you will stick to yours does not prove anything. :rolleyes:

Just few post above, you accused me with this

I want this question answered, and not looked over, just like you usually do.

I gave you answer, now tell me who is trying to run away ;)

[devdahiya]

Subsidies of all kind are a definite burdon on the tax payer without any doubt and it does hamper the progress. Having said that, in a country like india where govt functions[or it should if not doing already] on the concept of a welfare state, the fruits of the progress must be passed on to the weakest of all [and as such the concept of subsidies evolved after independence as there was scaracity of essential items and thus millions were starving] but today india produces enough of wheat and rice to meet the requirement of her citizens with something to spare and hence subsidies need to be cut gradually. Moreover as some one has already brought out, these subsidised items being distributed through PDS are landing into godowns of corrupt people, defeating the very purpose of the scheme. Infact this PDS has made many people lazy and idle as food becomes easily available [where ever it is reaching desired people]. Need of the hour is to generate jobs and provide education but then as Sumit said Govt only can't fight out all ills....it is the common men who have to get involved and make a difference. Govt inefficiency should not be quoted in the blame game. Time is ripe thus to do away with subsidies in a gradual manner. Even this reservation must go as this is causing havocs to the deserving people...with lesser qualified people basking in sun.


THIS POST IS WITH DUE REGARDS TO ALL THE VIEWS EXPRESSED BY THE WORTHY MEMBERS.

[atul.jhajhria]

You just defeated the purpose of my thread ;). Atleast read all the posts before posting anything. :)

Subsidies of all kind are a definite burdon on the tax payer without any doubt and it does hamper the progress. Having said that, in a country like india where govt. functions[or it should if not doing already] on the concept of a welfare state,wherein the fruits of the progress must be passed on to the weakest of all and as such the concept of subsidies evolved after independence as there was scaracity of essential items and thus millions were starving but today india produces enough of wheat and rice to meet the requirement of her citizens with something to spare and hence subsidies need to be cut gradually.

Subsidy is not given because there is scarcity or the surpless of food items. Its given to help poor people to survive, fight competition in international market and for dominance :rolleyes:

If your developing country doesn't provide subsides it wont stop developed countries to provide subsidies to their industries.

Moreover as some one has already brought out, these subsadised items being distributed through PDS are landing into godowns of corrupt people, defeating the very purpose of the scheme. Infact this PDS has made many people lazy and idle as food becomes easily available [where ever it is reaching desired people].

You must be kidding. Instead of discussing the way so that food finds its way to BPl people you are stating that since subsidy does not reaches to needy people it should be banned. I dont have words to comment on your thinking. :rolleyes:

Need of the hour is to generate jobs and provide education but then as Sumit said Govt only can't fight out all ills....it is the common men who have to get involved and make a difference. Govt inefficiency should not be quoted in the blame game. Time is ripe thus to do away with subsidies in a gradual manner. Even this reservation must go as this is causing havocs to the deserving people...with lesser qualified people basking in sun.

Need of the hour is not providing jobs and provide education, these things come later on. Giving food to needy is the main issue here. ;) Think of someone like you promising a dying man to give job. :p

If you want to discuss about reservation then make a seperate topic. I would be very happy to have debate on that too. ;)

[devdahiya]

You just defeated the purpose of my thread ;). Atleast read all the posts before posting anything. :)



Subsidy is not given because there is scarcity or the surpless of food items. Its given to help poor people to survive, fight competition in international market and for dominance :rolleyes:

If your developing country doesn't provide subsides it wont stop developed countries to provide subsidies to their industries.



You must be kidding. Instead of discussing the way so that food finds its way to BPl people you are stating that since subsidy does not reaches to needy people it should be banned. I dont have words to comment on your thinking. :rolleyes:



Need of the hour is not providing jobs and provide education, these things come later on. Giving food to needy is the main issue here. ;) Think of someone like you promising a dying man to give job. :p

If you want to discuss about reservation then make a seperate topic. I would be very happy to have debate on that too. ;)


Don't wanna join issue with you. Your knowledge is your's and mine is mine. Best we can do is to avoid sarcasm and loud mouth. Keep your knowledge and help those need food. Thanx anyway.Also if you bother to check it out, this was not your thread. Of course you posted your views and those seem novice with an air of " All must agree with me" desperate cry.That does not happen ever unless you are convincing in your thoughts. All the best.

[atul.jhajhria]

Don't wanna join issue with you. Your knowledge is your's and mine is mine. Best we can do is to avoid sarcasm and loud mouth. Keep your knowledge and help those need food. Thanx anyway.

You cant tell me that i cant include sarcasm in my post. I never posted anything crude and thats it. Sarcasm is very much parts of debate. ;)

If you want to avoid sarcasm then dont give vague examples. :)

[devdahiya]

You cant tell me that i cant include sarcasm in my post. I never posted anything crude and thats it. Sarcasm is very much parts of debate. ;)

If you want to avoid sarcasm then dont give vague examples. :)



Never quoted you in my post...........assumptions i suppose......it is a dangerous track you are treading on.

[atul.jhajhria]

Never quoted you in my post...........assumptions i suppose......it is a dangerous track you are treading on.

You gave your views, i disagree with your views. :)

Hence i refuted them with reasons. Do you have problem with that ;)

[devdahiya]

You gave your views, i disagree with your views. :)

Hence i refuted them with reasons. Do you have problem with that ;)



No more comments from my side.

[atul.jhajhria]

No more comments from my side.

pawned :p

Dont get angry dev, its all part of debates. Be strong :)

[devdahiya]

pawned :p

Dont get angry dev, its all part of debates. Be strong :)




God must make you doubly strong...so i pray....you need it a lot bhai. Carry on...bang on regardless. People who have met me [many of Jatlanders] must be laughing their hearts out. Pawned...what....? Phew.......daring you! Arr nyu batta teri uss subsidy ki rabbaddi ka ke huya....khindda di arr seet ka barolla thha liya....Tum ND sou bhai.....ha...ha...ha God bless !

[atul.jhajhria]

God must make you doubly strong...so i pray....you need it a lot bhai. Carry on...bang on regardless. People who have met me [many of Jatlanders] must be laughing their hearts out. Pawned...what....? Phew.......daring you! Arr nyu batta teri uss subsidy ki rabbaddi ka ke huya....khindda di arr seet ka barolla thha liya....Tum ND sou bhai.....ha...ha...ha God bless !

lmao, you are taking God's help :p

If you cant accept the facts or if you cant give counter view then why to give your views. You are not holier than thou that we are not entitled to refute your views. :cool:

Sarcasm is very much part of debates. However i wont use it in future(especially with you) because its taking too much toll :o

[devdahiya]

lmao, you are taking God's help :p

If you cant accept the facts or if you cant give counter view then why to give your views. You are not holier than thou that we are not entitled to refute your views. :cool:

Sarcasm is very much part of debates. However i wont use it in future(especially with you) because its taking too much toll :o


You and facts....R U crazy ? Bachcha hei yaar.........Will take you time....ought to grind yourself. And listen, better concentrate on Subsidies else all those downtroddens will curse you........speed up that operation.

[mbamal]

I am totally with you Sumit on this. Countries who run on international aids, rarely progress. SC/STs who have been getting reservations in government posts, have not come up the development ladder even in 60 years. This reminds me of Raheem Khankhana's famous doha;

" Rahiman wo nar mar chuke, jo kahin mangan jai"

RK^2

Rajendra Sir,

You and Sumit are correct in being the proponents of no-subsidies and market oriented approach. But what should be debated is the timing of this implementation and the manner of implementation. Cutting subsidies when Europe and US are still subsidizing their rich farmers will be fatal for the health of indian farm sector and jats in particular.

[narenderkharb]

It was good to see every one is concerned about the poor man but their approach varies.
Problem is some of our red commarades never come out of drawing rooms to see how this PDS AND BPL sYSTEM works.
I would reuest RS dAHIA ji to plz visit any floor mill owner in Najaf garh area and enquire how this wheat ment for poor people reach them,even some of it they get directly from FCI under the pretext of damaged grains via bribery.

My freinds will be in a shock if they get the complete details of these subsidies under food subsidy category,clearly explained by many economists 90% of these subsidies go to the pocket of rich people like subsidies given on petro products under food subsidy group.

Subsidies given in the name of fertilizers go to the pockets of corrupt officials even foreign firms are ready to give fertilizers at much cheaper rates(after bribing also) than our indian IFFCO.

I talk about the poorest of poor The FARMER and his son LABOURER(which our reds don't identify) they would never mind this swindling of money ,but the jock that they are given some thing without getting anything is more hurting,and Govt.need not to do any thing since it already did via subsidies which goes directly to richman's pockets.what a cruel joke to this perenial sufferer.

Shard joshi Tikait and some leaders who represnt this class of farmers and poor people time and again have demanded we donot want subsidies but just the right price of our produce,whose prices are put under strain via imports.

In an intersting debate about poor people on a tv channel respected commarade Chatrunan mishra ji who got a chance as Agriculture and food ministr,got emotional and shouted how our farmers can compete with other countries where farm inputs are heavily subsidised to it Setkari sanghdan leader quipped what happened to your this wisdom when every boby was saying this thing and you imported damaged wheat in the name of poor and unavoidability of compition in this global era,naturally MISHRA JI was looking on the other side.

[devdahiya]

It was good to see every one is concerned about the poor man but their approach varies.
Problem is some of our red commarades never come out of drawing rooms to see how this PDS AND BPL sYSTEM works.
I would reuest RS dAHIA ji to plz visit any floor mill owner in Najaf garh area and enquire how this wheat ment for poor people reach them,even some of it they get directly from FCI under the pretext of damaged grains via bribery.

My freinds will be in a shock if they get the complete details of these subsidies under food subsidy category,clearly explained by many economists 90% of these subsidies go to the pocket of rich people like subsidies given on petro products under food subsidy group.

Subsidies given in the name of fertilizers go to the pockets of corrupt officials even foreign firms are ready to give fertilizers at much cheaper rates(after bribing also) than our indian IFFCO.

I talk about the poorest of poor The FARMER and his son LABOURER(which our reds don't identify) they would never mind this swindling of money ,but the jock that they are given some thing without getting anything is more hurting,and Govt.need not to do any thing since it already did via subsidies which goes directly to richman's pockets.what a cruel joke to this perenial sufferer.

Shard joshi Tikait and some leaders who represnt this class of farmers and poor people time and again have demanded we donot want subsidies but just the right price of our produce,whose prices are put under strain via imports.

In an intersting debate about poor people on a tv channel respected commarade Chatrunan mishra ji who got a chance as Agriculture and food ministr,got emotional and shouted how our farmers can compete with other countries where farm inputs are heavily subsidised to it Setkari sanghdan leader quipped what happened to your this wisdom when every boby was saying this thing and you imported damaged wheat in the name of poor and unavoidability of compition in this global era,naturally MISHRA JI was looking on the other side.



Absolute truth............I said the same thing. These poor lot must be given An opportunity to work and earn their living but then people don't want to part with this eye wash.Vicious circle has never helped any one.

[dahiyars]

Thanks to all who have participated in the debate. To have socialist views is not a crime. However I have learnt a lot from all of you.with due regards to all

R.s.Dahiya

[atul.jhajhria]

I did not intended to further indulge in this discussion but i could not stop myself to atleast try to help other people. If you have any difficulty in understanding then feel free to ask.

It was good to see every one is concerned about the poor man but their approach varies.
Problem is some of our red commarades never come out of drawing rooms to see how this PDS AND BPL sYSTEM works.
I would reuest RS dAHIA ji to plz visit any floor mill owner in Najaf garh area and enquire how this wheat ment for poor people reach them,even some of it they get directly from FCI under the pretext of damaged grains via bribery.

My freinds will be in a shock if they get the complete details of these subsidies under food subsidy category,clearly explained by many economists 90% of these subsidies go to the pocket of rich people like subsidies given on petro products under food subsidy group.

Here you are confusing between two entirely different thing. We are discussing: Cut in food subsidy and its impact on BPl people.

You are referring to different problem: Does subsidies find its way to people for whom they are designed.

However if you wish to combine these two different things then we have government as culprit, as it fails in its own scheme.

However if government thinks that their can be more effective way of distributing the food to BPl people then they should provide the outline of that plan before cutting food subsidy. However whatever method government uses it will be same as subsidy as long as food is given at cheaper rate or free.

Subsidies given in the name of fertilizers go to the pockets of corrupt officials even foreign firms are ready to give fertilizers at much cheaper rates(after bribing also) than our indian IFFCO.

I disagree, I have a close relative working as manager in IFFCO and as far as he has told me there is not as big corruption as to generalize with whole IFFCO. Some incidences are bound to happen but a company like IFFCO can never sustain if they give fertilizer at higher price.

It may be possible that during some duration heavily subsidized foreign company may have offered cheaper fertilizers.

I talk about the poorest of poor The FARMER and his son LABOURER(which our reds don't identify) they would never mind this swindling of money ,but the jock that they are given some thing without getting anything is more hurting,and Govt.need not to do any thing since it already did via subsidies which goes directly to richman's pockets.what a cruel joke to this perenial sufferer.

I agree with you. ;)

Shard joshi Tikait and some leaders who represnt this class of farmers and poor people time and again have demanded we donot want subsidies but just the right price of our produce,whose prices are put under strain via imports.

I think here you are trying to give example why subsidies are not necessary. Tell me if i understood it wrong.

Their is slight difference in what they intend to say and what you have understood from the statement.

They are merely asking for right price because they think that if farmers will get right price for their crop then farmers will be at far more beneficial position even if government removes subsidies.

They are not asking to remove subsidies ;) This is the matter of relative benifit.

In an intersting debate about poor people on a tv channel respected commarade Chatrunan mishra ji who got a chance as Agriculture and food ministr,got emotional and shouted how our farmers can compete with other countries where farm inputs are heavily subsidised to it Setkari sanghdan leader quipped what happened to your this wisdom when every boby was saying this thing and you imported damaged wheat in the name of poor and unavoidability of compition in this global era,naturally MISHRA JI was looking on the other side.

Thats a nice example of ignorance/double-standards of our Politicians. :)

[narenderkharb]

Having socialist views if it means equalit and gurantee againt exploitation is really great thing,which every student coming out of the institution posseses

Thinking about the poor is a virtue which every right thinking person should have.

However the real problem starts when we adopt policies with a stated goal to help the poor which serve just the opposite purpose,lead this group in to the vicious circle of poverty.

As Atul wants to suggest don't cut till altenate way is found out my point was since the 90% subsidies are already cornered by rich what purpose will contnuance of this drama serve except flattening rich man's pockets.

Secondly the Govt which is avoiding its duty via subsidy farce will have to do some thing concrete instead.

It will have to give remunerative prices to farmers which it is avoiding taking refuge under subsidy umbrella.

As far understandig farmer leaders are concerned I would say I had personal long discussions with them like ghansi ram nain dhaya tikait Bhopal singh and others in 1987 except Shard joshi(whose views are well known) during the famous dharana for many days at India gate lawns.All of them are againt subsidies and in favour of remunarative prices.I joined that during my Msc. as I felt ,they are not fighting for themselves but for us.

[dahiyarules]

You know something Atul, you must stop being so stubborn. The point is not loosing or winning. The point is the message that we are conveying to other readers of this forum.

For me, the most important thing in an Individual's life is liberty. I dont think that you are familiar with the phrase : "conceived in liberty." It means liberty is our birth right. Life and liberty are inseparable.

Your socialist ideas are completely anti-liberty. I want to empower people. My ideas do exactly the same. I dont want people to be the slaves of the government. Let people clame their liberty. The first step in this direction would be to reduce the size of goverment in our lives.

You asked for it. So, you will get it now. I dont want you to feel that I quit. Its jsut that you are such a bonehead, that I dont consider you worth my time and effort. I had rather talk to people who posess a sane level of mental capabilities.

This time I will refute your statement, from their nomenclature point of view. Your statements are completely flawed. Let me tell you and others how.

Let me describe what "analytical statement means."

Step 1 You make a claim.

Step 2 You analyze the claim

Step 3 You back up the claim with sound reasoning.

Step 4 You connext the reasoning with the claim

Your statements lack the flowchart, that I just mentioned. Thus they are flawed in the entirity. You do a good job at making a claim. But, god only knows what happens after that. You just fail to connect your reasoning with the claim.

The only reason India and China have seen prosperity knock their doors, over the past few years in because of the reduction of government in our economies. If it were upto socialists like you (thank me that I havent called you a facist communist yet), we would still be living in the dark ages.

I am not asking you to change your mind. Actually, I want you to be the extremist socialist that you are. People like you give me a reason to be an activist. People of your leanings have had a smooth sail for several decades. They have tested the nerves of "lovers of liberty" like me for several decades. We are not going to tollerate your BS/crap anymore. You will find us at every stage of your propoganda. We will continue to make life a living hell for you. Socialism died out long time ago. It's ghosts still fool around though. Just think of us as the "ghostbusters." And we will not rest in peace till we bring the bells of liberty to every door and household in the habitable universe.

Good luck.

I knew you will get angry after reading my post :). Infact its not your fault but its a general human tendency. They dont want to loose :rolleyes:.

However the moment you open your mind you will see that you were wrong.

According to you: i said same thing using different words. I would say i only explained it in detail to make you understand :p

I frankly dont understand what you have against my views. I provided counter view and explained them too but you seems to have closed your mind. I read your post and i presented counter view, i expect same from you. Tell me where you have not understood or you think i am wrong. Just saying that i will stick to my views and you will stick to yours does not prove anything. :rolleyes:

Just few post above, you accused me with this


I gave you answer, now tell me who is trying to run away ;)

[dahiyarules]

RS Dahiya sir!

You are right. To have socialist views is not a crime. To be a socialist is nothing less than a crime.

Consider the millions that socialists kill, when they take over nations. Remember the "Bolshevik Revolution." They killed millions in Russia.

Remember the "French Revolution." They put millions under the gillotine.

Remeber the "Maoist" takeover of China. Millions were killed and millions were displaced to Formosa, what we now know as Taiwan.

Remember the "Khmer Rouge" regime of Cambodia. The worst ever massacre in human history.

Remember the "Che Guevara" rebellion of Bolivia. Millions killed.

Remember the "Fidel Castro" communist takeover of Cuba. Millions killed and displaced.

The list just goes on and on.

Socialism has this unquenchable thurst for human blood. Millions have quenched this thirst with theirs and their loved ones blood over the years.

Socialism has no tollerance for liberty. And I have no tollerance for socialim.

Think again, if possessing socialist ideas is a crime or not.

Theres a saying: "The only good communist is a dead communist."

Take my word on it. It makes a lot of sense to me.


Thanks to all who have participated in the debate. To have socialist views is not a crime. However I have learnt a lot from all of you.with due regards to all

R.s.Dahiya

[atul.jhajhria]

You know something Atul, you must stop being so stubborn. The point is not loosing or winning. The point is the message that we are conveying to other readers of this forum.

sigh >_<, i am trying to figure out just what is about me that presses your buttons so badly. All you have to do is prove me wrong. So far you have not given counter view to my thinking and you are asking me favour to agree with you. Sorry i dont change my mind ;)

For me, the most important thing in an Individual's life is liberty. I dont think that you are familiar with the phrase : "conceived in liberty." It means liberty is our birth right. Life and liberty are inseparable.

Your socialist ideas are completely anti-liberty. I want to empower people. My ideas do exactly the same. I dont want people to be the slaves of the government. Let people clame their liberty. The first step in this direction would be to reduce the size of goverment in our lives.

Seriously i am not moved at all by your liberty thingy. I will put your comments comparable to Laluji comment few years ago, his comment was to gathering of farmers: If you remove electricity from the water what will be left in water, it would be useless to farmers.

Your comments are as vague as laluji's comment. :)

Its really hard to believe that some human being can have such views. You are trying to justify cuts in subsidy in the name of liberty. :rolleyes: Do you know what is the meaning of liberty is? Let me write the meaning for you
Liberty: Freedom from unjust or undue governmental control.

From when giving food at cheaper rates become unjust and undue, tell us :rolleyes:

You indeed are giving freedom to that BPl person, but little different type of freedom, freedom from life. :)



You asked for it. So, you will get it now. I dont want you to feel that I quit. Its jsut that you are such a bonehead, that I dont consider you worth my time and effort. I had rather talk to people who posess a sane level of mental capabilities.

Its a sign of normal human reaction. You are getting annoyed here, next step would be anger :p

This time I will refute your statement, from their nomenclature point of view. Your statements are completely flawed. Let me tell you and others how.

Let me describe what "analytical statement means."

Step 1 You make a claim.

Step 2 You analyze the claim

Step 3 You back up the claim with sound reasoning.

Step 4 You connext the reasoning with the claim

Your statements lack the flowchart, that I just mentioned. Thus they are flawed in the entirity. You do a good job at making a claim. But, god only knows what happens after that. You just fail to connect your reasoning with the claim.

You says i fail to connect reasoning with claim.
I will take the pain to make you understand again. who never know when you get lucky :D

My reason to provide subsidy: For giving poor people chance to live, to compete in international market for survival and some time for dominance.

This statement connects to claim by itself, if you still dont understand then ask again. After all what friends are for :p

The only reason India and China have seen prosperity knock their doors, over the past few years in because of the reduction of government in our economies. If it were upto socialists like you (thank me that I havent called you a facist communist yet), we would still be living in the dark ages.

Do you know what you are writing. :rolleyes: You are relating the progress of china to reduction of governemnt in their economy. Do you understand that china is communist country.

You can be little more wise to reasearch the topic you want to discuss. It will save you embarrasement.

I am not asking you to change your mind. Actually, I want you to be the extremist socialist that you are. People like you give me a reason to be an activist. People of your leanings have had a smooth sail for several decades.

You can not change my mind just by asking. You have to provide reasoning and so far you are horribly failed in that.


They have tested the nerves of "lovers of liberty" like me for several decades. We are not going to tollerate your BS/crap anymore. You will find us at every stage of your propoganda. We will continue to make life a living hell for you. Socialism died out long time ago. It's ghosts still fool around though. Just think of us as the "ghostbusters." And we will not rest in peace till we bring the bells of liberty to every door and household in the habitable universe.
Good luck.

This is like big words without any real meaning, kind of mental fart. ;).

Socialism has not died and can never die, It will be present with capatalism side by side.

Any country cant be 100% capitalist or communist. It is mixture of these two with leaning on one side. The moment country becomes 100% capatilst or vice versa it will collapse.

[dahiyarules]

Ok Atul ! Believe me, I have an unlimited supplies of vebal incendiaries to throw at you.

I am not surprised that you are not moved by my love for Liberty. It was expected.

Thanks for doing the job for me by defining liberty. You have the answers to your questions, and you do not realize it.

"Government control" is unjust in its very concept. I dont want Government controlling me or you or for the matter of fact any citizen of the country. I want the citizens to control their own destiny.

Stop connecting Liberty with subsidies. LET ME MAKE IT CLEAR. SUBSIDIES ARE ANTI-LIBERTY BECAUSE THEY ARE FORCED DOWN THE NECK OF THOSE WHO DISAGREE WITH THEM IN PRINCIPLE, BUT ARE FORCED TO PAY FOR THEM. Put it in your head bro.

I want the masses to enable themselves to make their ends meet. Handouts in terms of liberty and welfare lower the recepient's self esteem and social worth. Lets give them a reason to live with dignity, but giving them a reason to work and fend for themselves. People who depend on welfare are slaves of the state. The state uses them to their own advantage. In the case of India, these people form massive vote banks. This is how the process of democracy is rigged in our country. The leader who promises more handouts gets more votes. Whether he fulfills his promises or not, is an answer most of us can predict wihtout having any astrological skills.

Yes it is hard to believe that I have such views. Thanks for affirming that I ma not a "bitch" of the state. I am an anarchist first and a capitalist later. Summing up, I am an Anarchocapitalist. I hope your eyes burn as you read this, just like sunlight burns the dracula.

Price fixing of commodities disrupts the delicate balance that markets hold. Only market forces can determine the right price, taking into consideration demand and supply.

Coming to China, I want you to do your fact check. CHina is the fastest growing economy in the world. It will overtake the US as the largest economy by the first quarter of this century. More entreprenurial investment is flowing into China's infrastructure than any country in the world. The US's trade defici with China is far bigger than it's fiscal deficit. That shows how much goods and services your "communist China" sells in the world's largest economy alone. China is opening up. Thats what I said. Read my words carefully. It will keep opening up, because the people are realizing the benefits of a free economy.

I have reached a point that I am not trying to convince you on any point. I am just countering you. Because, I want you to stop spreading disinformation among those who are reading this thread.

I agree with you that no economy is completely capitalist. But, that is what I and other like-minded people strive to achieve, so that socialsit parasites like you dotn feed on our liberty and social welfare.

Yaar I heard of farts from the ass. Never heard of mental farts. hehehe. Wonder how you fart your brains off.

Come on dude. Bring it on. I am waiting for your next one.


sigh >_<, i am trying to figure out just what is about me that presses your buttons so badly. All you have to do is prove me wrong. So far you have not given counter view to my thinking and you are asking me favour to agree with you. Sorry i dont change my mind ;)



Seriously i am not moved at all by your liberty thingy. I will put your comments comparable to Laluji comment few years ago, his comment was to gathering of farmers: If you remove electricity from the water what will be left in water, it would be useless to farmers.

Your comments are as vague as laluji's comment. :)

Its really hard to believe that some human being can have such views. You are trying to justify cuts in subsidy in the name of liberty. :rolleyes: Do you know what is the meaning of liberty is? Let me write the meaning for you
Liberty: Freedom from unjust or undue governmental control.

From when giving food at cheaper rates become unjust and undue, tell us :rolleyes:

You indeed are giving freedom to that BPl person, but little different type of freedom, freedom from life. :)





Its a sign of normal human reaction. You are getting annoyed here, next step would be anger :p



You says i fail to connect reasoning with claim.
I will take the pain to make you understand again. who never know when you get lucky :D

My reason to provide subsidy: For giving poor people chance to live, to compete in international market for survival and some time for dominance.

This statement connects to claim by itself, if you still dont understand then ask again. After all what friends are for :p



Do you know what you are writing. :rolleyes: You are relating the progress of china to reduction of governemnt in their economy. Do you understand that china is communist country.

You can be little more wise to reasearch the topic you want to discuss. It will save you embarrasement.



You can not change my mind just by asking. You have to provide reasoning and so far you are horribly failed in that.




This is like big words without any real meaning, kind of mental fart. ;).

Socialism has not died and can never die, It will be present with capatalism side by side.

Any country cant be 100% capitalist or communist. It is mixture of these two with leaning on one side. The moment country becomes 100% capatilst or vice versa it will collapse.

[devdahiya]

Sumi bhai ke fayda.....can i request you to go for those YOUR ADVOCATED......chilly pils. You are special dear.

[dahiyarules]

Hahahah!

Dev Sir! Chilly pill kha lee tay chaal ho jyaga :D.

Haan Chill pill could work in this situation.

I am just loving this discussion. Let me mind you here, that its not a debate, because I am not countering arguments that are of an equal level. I am just countering misinformation, with information.

I think those who were smart enough, got my point. Others just have too much time on their hands.

You wont hear from me on this one anymore. I pull out voluntarily for the sake of sanity.

Sumi bhai ke fayda.....can i request you to go for those YOUR ADVOCATED......chilly pils. You are special dear.