Despite progress, Poverty persists

[dahiyars]

Despite progress , poverty persists

The single most important factor that impedes growth or development of a nation is poverty. It is responsible for all the ills--- social, economic and health. Eradication of poverty holds the answer to the health problems of people. But there is apradox that we have poverty in the midst of plenty. Though we have enough to feed everyone, due to maldistribution and inequality, the poor stand and watch with empty hands and stomachs. On the other hand the crops are exported for hard cash. “If every man cares enough and shares enough, there is enough for everyman’s need, but not for everyman’s greed.” We should do better to remember these words of Gandhiji.
Medically we define poverty as follows: a person who can’ot consume 1600 calories a day is below poverty line. Here is no question of clothing or shelter etc. In Haryana 27 % people are said to be below poverty line meaning thereby that at least there are 55 lakh people.
Grinding poverty causes hunger which aggravates malnutrition making children emaciated and sick. The poor are always at the receiving end. Poverty, hunger and malnutrition stalk one another in a vicious circle. Aggravated by poverty, malnutrition combines with disease to form a deadly duo which together can kill, disable and stunt mental and physical growth causing delayed national development.

R.S.Dahiya

[rkumar]

I wonder if you have analysed the mentality of all these so called poor ? Majority of them don't like to work and are lazy. Those who wish to work can never remain poor to the extent that they can not afford basic needs like food, shelter.

RK^2

[devdahiya]

I wonder if you have analysed the mentality of all these so called poor ? Majority of them don't like to work and are lazy. Those who wish to work can never remain poor to the extent that they can not afford basic needs like food, shelter.

RK^2



True Rajendra sir. This socialist advocacy[promise] to provide food without work and pay without efforts is ruinning this nation. What the communists doing today is a clear example of bankrupcy of thoughts and latest ideas....oppose every positive move of people who want to take this country out of the cluthes of poverty. I believe that those who don't work hard will remain useless inspite of hue and cry. Reservations for well to do SC/St continues,where as people from upper classes are committing suicide. I don't want to think on these lines as :


Jisko karna hei kaam usse mil hi jatta hei
Nikkamma aaddami hamesha dhakke khata hei.

[devdahiya]

I wonder if you have analysed the mentality of all these so called poor ? Majority of them don't like to work and are lazy. Those who wish to work can never remain poor to the extent that they can not afford basic needs like food, shelter.

RK^2



True Rajendra sir. This socialist advocacy[promise] to provide food without work and pay without efforts is ruinning this nation. What some of our politicians doing today is a clear example of bankrupcy of thoughts and latest ideas....oppose every positive move of people who want to take this country out of the clutches of poverty. I believe that those who don't work hard will remain useless inspite of hue and cry. Reservations for well to do SC/St continues,where as people from upper classes are committing suicide. I don't want to think on these lines as :


Jisko karna hei kaam usse mil hi jatta hei
Nikkamma aaddami hamesha dhakke khata hei.

[rkumar]

.......... What the communists doing today is a clear example of bankrupcy of thoughts and latest ideas....oppose every positive move of people who want to take this country out of the cluthes of poverty. .............



Have Indian communists made any efforts to open educational and training institutions so that these so called poor get trained to earn livelihood? Have Indian communists ever agitated for the spread of education in Rural areas? They have all the time to lobby for Iranian cause and diverting public attention towards no-issues like anti americanism... Communist parties in India are run on arm twisting the Industrialists, exploiting the workers of their money to run trade unions... In my view communists are nothing but a sophisticated version of Mumbai underworld mafia who collect Hafta..

RK^2

[mukeshkumar007]

Have Indian communists made any efforts to open educational and training institutions so that these so called poor get trained to earn livelihood? Have Indian communists ever agitated for the spread of education in Rural areas?
RK^2

agar wo aisa karte to unki dukan kab ki hi band ho jati :)

[rkumar]

Communists of India, including leftist media is acting as a very strong loby for China, Pakistand and Iranian interests in India. Hindu newspaper reports literally everything Mussarf speaks. NDTV reports even on the toilet visits of Karat. Where is the reporting based upon national interests ? Communists line on Trade Union Chandda and this is why they are against privatisation. How about if we CPI as ;

CPI= China, Pakistan, Iran

RK^2

[birbal]

I wonder if you have analysed the mentality of all these so called poor ? Majority of them don't like to work and are lazy. Those who wish to work can never remain poor to the extent that they can not afford basic needs like food, shelter.

RK^2


Nothing could be farther from truth. In a book analyzing poverty around the world, J.K. Galbraith dispelled the conventional wisdom that poor are lazy and unmotivated. If one looks with open eyes and honestly, it is evident that in countries like India, the poor are the hardest workers, but the dice is rolled against them and it is nearly impossible to get out of the poverty cycle despite their best efforts. The few, who succeed, have to use crime as a means to get ahead.

In India, it is the upper strata people, like senior civil servants, politicians and their children, who are the laziest. The omnipresence of domestic servants in India is a proof that poor are hard workers and rich are lazy.

[devdahiya]

Nothing could be farther from truth. In a book analyzing poverty around the world, J.K. Galbraith dispelled the conventional wisdom that poor are lazy and unmotivated. If one looks with open eyes and honestly, it is evident that in countries like India, the poor are the hardest workers, but the dice is rolled against them and it is nearly impossible to get out of the poverty cycle despite their best efforts. The few, who succeed, have to use crime as a means to get ahead.

In India, it is the upper strata people, like senior civil servants, politicians and their children, who are the laziest. The omnipresence of domestic servants in India is a proof that poor are hard workers and rich are lazy.



Birbal sir, there are very few rich people in India and their being lazy or not lazy hardly makes any difference. When we say that poor people are hard working..we may not be too near to the truth.....We all have rissen from humblest possible existence and mind you we are Ok with life just because of shear hard work but majority of people like us who are still in existence are still there[may be worst than what they were 40-50 years back] inspite of the fact that better than us oppurtunities were available for them as well. Pardon me for disagreeing on this point but Rich people do involve themselves better in the bussiness of life and thats why they are rich......? Your sympathy with so called poors not withstanding, who so ever has put in genuine efforts to come out of that quagmire of poverty has come out of it...and mind you there are millions of such people around us. One has to help him/herself to make a place for self is my take sir.

[rkumar]

Nothing could be farther from truth. In a book analyzing poverty around the world, J.K. Galbraith dispelled the conventional wisdom that poor are lazy and unmotivated. If one looks with open eyes and honestly, it is evident that in countries like India, the poor are the hardest workers, but the dice is rolled against them and it is nearly impossible to get out of the poverty cycle despite their best efforts. The few, who succeed, have to use crime as a means to get ahead.

In India, it is the upper strata people, like senior civil servants, politicians and their children, who are the laziest. The omnipresence of domestic servants in India is a proof that poor are hard workers and rich are lazy.

Brirbal Singh Ji,

If we assume that basic intelligence is evenly spread, hard work is what matters. My personal experience is that hard working people may never become filthy rich, but they never remain poor either. Ofcourse one might argue about the level of richness. State policies only can keep masses poor. Under equal opportunities, only the lazy ones will remain poor. Payment for work is not based just upon the hours of work one puts. Type of work, quality of work, place of work and many other things matter. I am sure volumes are written on such topic by authors belonging to different ideologies. Intelligent domestic servants know that through education they can change the future of their next generation and the same has happened in 1000s of cases. What will one call about those who got opportunity for education and did not study? Can they blame others for their poverty? Most of us belong to families where our parents were illiterate and poor. Blaming others for all our problems is shying away from reality.

Rajendra

[dahiyars]

Dear Raj ji and Dev ji

I think we are diverting the issue because of our biases. I agree with Birbal ji on the issue. Does poverty not exists in America. Is the poor farmer of India kamchor?
We should have a healthy academic discussion. Never mind every body has got his world view.

R.S.Dahiya

[devdahiya]

Dear Raj ji and Dev ji

I think we are diverting the issue because of our biases. I agree with Birbal ji on the issue. Does poverty not exists in America. Is the poor farmer of India kamchor?
We should have a healthy academic discussion. Never mind every body has got his world view.

R.S.Dahiya



Dr Ranbir Singh ji,...frankly there are no bias at all...i personally [very strongly] feel that we can not brand a group as a whole good or bad.What i want to say[hope it is being conveyed correctly] is that those who work hard with a focussed attitude in life....will surely succeed be it a KISAN,NAI ,DHOBBI,TELLI,DUKANDAAR,NAUKARI PESHA aur KOI BHI. Many kisan don't go to fields and rather give their land on AADHHA-BAADHHA to play cards whole day long....and if someone wants me to call these creatures as sensible then why should i do that. IT is the KARMMA theory at test here. Why should we feel bad and biased against rich and famous[specially those who are capable and who have toiled their way to top] at all. Bajaj people have their scooters in every house hold...aren't they doing a equally good[if not better] service [what our kisans and labourers doing] to our nation?Aren't reliance people or Jet airways contributing greatly in nation building? How many examples of these rich people you want, who are rendering a examplary service to the nation.Now tell me who is biased? I appreciate the concern for the downtroddens but that should not be used as a routine tool to hoodwink the system. HARDWORKING people deserve sympathy but poor people with evil designs and Nikkamma attitude needs to be called NIKKAMMA for sure...nothing wrong with that please.

[birbal]

Anyone who believes that had work alone is enough to get ahead these days is living in a fantasy world. Most of the people here have some mathematics background, and the important thing to remember from mathematical derivations is the term "necessary and sufficient condition". Yes, if you want to progress it is necessary to work hard, but it is not sufficient if you are poor today.

Things were quite different a generation ago. I got admission in engineering at Jodhpur, but could not go because we had no money. I got admission in IIT and education in IIT was almost free due to scholarship but I needed the initial tuition fee money (about Rs. 500). It took me a while even to get that money but the Deputy Director of IIT Bombay was a strong socialist and he allowed me to join the program one and half months late. Such things do not happen today.

In an article published in New York times few months ago, the author (whose name I forgot) stated that the only reason there is social stability in America is because of the positive attitude of the poor people, and their hope that hard work will get them out of poverty. The author stated it was true in the past but most of the poor today have no hope in hell to get out of poverty despite all their efforts. When the masses realize the truth, it will be a different scene. Of course, we know it is lot worse for the poor in India. The first thing is that the access to quality education does not exist. So, leave alone the talk of level playing field, the poor today are out of the game before it begins.

The worst thing is that the poor in India have to pay lot more for their basic necessities. Just read the now famous book by C.K. Prahlad "The Bottom of the Pyramid", where he shows that the poor pay lot more for rice, water, milk, vegetables etc in the slums of Bombay.

The rich people in India are out of touch with the reality. One of my classmate and good friend, Arun Firodia, is a prominent industrialist in India. Recently, I read an article in a newspaper by him stating that the energy problem in India can be solved if every farmer keeps 2 Bullocks and 4 Cows, and use the gober gas to generate power. I could not believe it because Arun was one of our toppers and he went to MIT on scholarship (even though he came from a wealthy family and they controlled the Bajaj Tempo).

When I read statements from Rajendraji and Devji and few other Right Wingers on this site, and from the likes of Arun Firodia in the Press, I feel sad that how people can be blinded by ideology. The only reason India is doing well today is because for a while the socialist type of leaders had succeeded in providing opportunities for decent education for bright but poor children. Those type of opportunities do not exist today, but the crooked ideologues have succeeded in diverting the attention of poor people by using religion but it casn not last long. When the people realize the truth, it will be a different scenario.

[vinodks]

First of all, I strongly disagree with RKji in that the poor are poor because they are lazy...
This is too simplistic a statement without any deeper thought on multitude causes of poverty I would request everyone in this thread to read Time magazine's cover article (March 2005) "How to end poverty" which is kind of review of a book by Jeffrey D. Sachs. Those who don’t have time to read can go over main paragraphs that I am pasting in next post.

http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,1034738,00.html

Birbalji, It’s good to know that you are my senior from IITB. I agree with most of the comments about poverty though I think Arun Firodia’s witty comment about 4 cows and 2 bulls must have been said on lighter note because solutions of poverty are even more complicated than causes of problems themselves. I think you are impressed by Galbraith (were you referring to ‘Nature of Mass Poverty’?). Being famous economist and past ambassador to India he must have understanding of poverty and I would be interested to know his views. I am not in position to comment on that but quick search shows his views were not very well received by critics

http://www.blupete.com/Literature/Biographies/Philosophy/Galbraith.htm#Galbraith

[The book] is "replete with fallacies ... dogmatic assertions and time-honoured rhetorical devices in place of reasoned argument."

I think he had socialist tilt and most of economists have for that matter… I am interested to know arguments behind their policies, and plan to read something on this in near future before making my stand more rigid… But while talking of Indian communists, I agree with RKji statement (though it’s little blunt:)). I think solution of social problems like poverty should be sought without worrying about Right or Left… Once you start seeing people as right or left you have your own judgments and suspicion of their views and then we deviate from rational way of arriving at solutions…
I don’t think Maoists are salvager for Nepal, I don’t think Naxals can do any good in Andhra, failure of Kerala in hands of communists is well known and W. Bengal... well, you know…

Birbalji! Does the director of IITB being socialist has anything to do with the fact that the institute was initiated by support of USSR? Just curious… The current director Ashok Misra’s wife is very active in ASHA orgn, in fact Hillary Clinton visited her school in Powai.

-Vinod

Anyone who believes that had work alone is enough to get ahead these days is living in a fantasy world. Most of the people here have some mathematics background, and the important thing to remember from mathematical derivations is the term "necessary and sufficient condition". Yes, if you want to progress it is necessary to work hard, but it is not sufficient if you are poor today.

Things were quite different a generation ago. I got admission in engineering at Jodhpur, but could not go because we had no money. I got admission in IIT and education in IIT was almost free due to scholarship but I needed the initial tuition fee money (about Rs. 500). It took me a while even to get that money but the Deputy Director of IIT Bombay was a strong socialist and he allowed me to join the program one and half months late. Such things do not happen today.

In an article published in New York times few months ago, the author (whose name I forgot) stated that the only reason there is social stability in America is because of the positive attitude of the poor people, and their hope that hard work will get them out of poverty. The author stated it was true in the past but most of the poor today have no hope in hell to get out of poverty despite all their efforts. When the masses realize the truth, it will be a different scene. Of course, we know it is lot worse for the poor in India. The first thing is that the access to quality education does not exist. So, leave alone the talk of level playing field, the poor today are out of the game before it begins.

The worst thing is that the poor in India have to pay lot more for their basic necessities. Just read the now famous book by C.K. Prahlad "The Bottom of the Pyramid", where he shows that the poor pay lot more for rice, water, milk, vegetables etc in the slums of Bombay.

The rich people in India are out of touch with the reality. One of my classmate and good friend, Arun Firodia, is a prominent industrialist in India. Recently, I read an article in a newspaper by him stating that the energy problem in India can be solved if every farmer keeps 2 Bullocks and 4 Cows, and use the gober gas to generate power. I could not believe it because Arun was one of our toppers and he went to MIT on scholarship (even though he came from a wealthy family and they controlled the Bajaj Tempo).

When I read statements from Rajendraji and Devji and few other Right Wingers on this site, and from the likes of Arun Firodia in the Press, I feel sad that how people can be blinded by ideology. The only reason India is doing well today is because for a while the socialist type of leaders had succeeded in providing opportunities for decent education for bright but poor children. Those type of opportunities do not exist today, but the crooked ideologues have succeeded in diverting the attention of poor people by using religion but it casn not last long. When the people realize the truth, it will be a different scenario.

[vinodks]

Ok, few passages from the Time article

Currently, more than 8 million people around the world die each year because they are too poor to stay alive. Every morning our newspapers could report, "More than 20,000 people perished yesterday of extreme poverty."

Yet our generation, in the U.S. and abroad, can choose to end extreme poverty by the year 2025. To do it, we need to adopt a new method, which I call "clinical economics," to underscore the similarities between good development economics and good clinical medicine. In the past quarter-century, the development economics imposed by rich countries on the poorest countries has been too much like medicine in the 18th century, when doctors used leeches to draw blood from their patients, often killing them in the process. Development economics needs an overhaul in order to be much more like modern medicine, a profession of rigor, insight and practicality. The sources of poverty are multidimensional. So are the solutions.

If the poor are poor because they are lazy or their governments are corrupt, how could global cooperation help? Fortunately, these common beliefs are misconceptions--only a small part of the explanation of why the poor are poor. In all corners of the world, the poor face structural challenges that keep them from getting even their first foot on the ladder of development.

The world's remaining challenge is not mainly to overcome laziness and corruption, but rather to take on the solvable problems of geographic isolation, disease and natural hazards, and to do so with new arrangements of political responsibility that can get the job done. We need plans, systems, mutual accountability and financing mechanisms. But even before we have all of that apparatus in place--what I call the economic plumbing--we must first understand more concretely what such a strategy means to the people who can be helped.

Nearly half the 6 billion people in the world are poor.

The total number of people living in extreme poverty, the World Bank estimates, is 1.1 billion, down from 1.5 billion in 1981. While that is progress, much of the one-sixth of humanity in extreme poverty suffers the ravages of AIDS, drought, isolation and civil wars, and is thereby trapped in a vicious cycle of deprivation and death. Moreover, while the economic boom in East Asia has helped reduce the proportion of the extreme poor in that region from 58% in 1981 to 15% in 2001, and in South Asia from 52% to 31%, the situation is deeply entrenched in Africa, where almost half of the continent's population lives in extreme poverty--a proportion that has actually grown worse over the past two decades as the rest of the world has grown more prosperous.

When a society is economically dominant, it is easy for its members to assume that such dominance reflects a deeper superiority--whether religious, racial, genetic, ethnic, cultural or institutional--rather than an accident of timing or geography.

My fav one:

In the face of this horrific maelstrom, the world community has so far displayed a fair bit of hand-wringing and even some high-minded rhetoric, but precious little action

[devdahiya]

Respect worthy Birbal ji, I don't understand how could you assume that some one has wings...Right or left wings.I don't even practice such theory in life...but certainly loath a sweaping statement from any quarter. Without writing too much i would like to say my final words:



Determined people don't bog down in life,irrespective of their origin,type of birth,situation or circumstances.They pursue things relentlessly until they succeed....and these are the people on whose shouldres rest the destiny of humanity.Passangers crib through out their lives and die passengers and as a burdon.Positive people with spark will surely be helped to excel but shams in disguise of destitudes must not be else they will take the system for granted and thats why there are millions of such idle people in our country as they get free food, doing just nothing. Ghodde ko Kuwein takk le jaya ja sakta hei par panni nahin pilaya ja sakta.

[dahiyarules]

I was holding back my urge to comment on this one, for a long time.

Why do we have a Government?

We have a Government because we want someone to make fruitful decisions on our behalf at a social level. My question is, how many time does an elected official make decisions that are fruitful to us. Hardly any! In some cases, some decisions seem fruitful to some, but they are disastrous for others.

Let’s take for example the reservations system. I am sure that there are several of you out there who will agree with me the reservation system, or affirmative action as it is widely known in the west, has cast a spell of disaster on the country. The only reason that you will agree with me is because you all are Jats and none of you ever qualified for this benefit. But on the other hand if I were talking to a “Chamaar” audience, I would be booed and pelted with obscenities. Why? Because those people have a strong belief that the reservation system helps their community, even though it ahs hurt them more than it has helped them as it keeps them from discovering their true potential. The simple evidence to my argument is that more than half a century after independence, the reservation system has hardly helped the backward communities of our country, even though the program itself has expanded exponentially.

Coming back to the main point, we live in a world of insecurity, where we trust the institution of Government for our security and welfare. Even though, we hardly ever got either of the two. People are murdered in broad daylight. Women are raped as people just walk by. Children are abducted for trivial amounts of money. And as one of the patrons of the forum put it, poverty still persists. So by any logical litmus test, the institution of Government is total failure. And if anyone still wants to crank up this junked up Soviet made Lada, probably you are doing something similar to digging up a corpse from a grave and trying to revive him using a defribulator.

If any Government was ever successful in providing us with everything that we expected of them, they won’t be in business for long. So it is in the interest of the Government to promise us the world and do nothing when the time comes to put their money where their mouths are. So the government is in business to stay in business. The only way they can stay in business is by constantly lying to us and leaving us under the impression that we cannot do without them. I do not buy the hogwash that they build roads and maintain security by the means of a police force. Even though that is an entirely different issue that I would like to comment on, but, we must not overlook that facts that the best road networks in the world are privately owned and maintained, and the instance of Police brutality whether in India or the United State are despicable and in utmost bad taste. So you still want Government to provide you with bad services and break your backs in lockup room?




What is the alternative to Government?

The only alternative to Government is Liberty. Liberty to choose is the only thing that could enable sane and civil minds to make sound decisions for them and for those they love and care for. Liberty to choose our way of life, who we work for, who we do business with, what we buy and consume, how we educate and raise our children, to travel and move around, how we allocate our earnings, are just some of the good things in life that every individual must strive for. Once we have the Liberty to live our lives on our own terms, I hardly see the need for any Government.

Liberty will lead to free enterprise. Free enterprise will enable enterprising minds to create opportunities. Opportunities are just what people of high integrity and dignity are looking for, to get what they are worth and what they deserve. In other words, free enterprise will lead to fair remuneration for hardworking individuals. Entrepreneurs have an incentive to maintain a well remunerated and highly motivated workforce, because these are the deciding factors for the productivity and capability of an enterprise.

The point is not that poverty still persists in India. The point is that those who were supposed to eradicate poverty by the means of a centralized authority and planning have a good reason for poverty to persist. Because, as long as poverty persists, someone will have promises to make that they have an incentive to break.

[scsheorayan]

Respected Birbal ji,
My apologies in advance for not agreeing with applicability of your theory to modern India. We all carry India of the day we left those shores but the country is not the same and neither are it's people. India is evolving faster than some of us care to admit. The issue here is whether hard work can get you out of poverty. I think we need to define what is meant by hard work. Some times people could be working very hard and reach no where and some times they make progress. In my opinion working smarter and ethically is more important than just working just harder like a bull. That is the only legal way to progress in life. Our society has always valued hard work and it still does. In the days of agriculture the need was physical work in harsh environment.Then came industrialisation and knowledge of science became the definition of hard work. Now in Information age the same is true. Those who are not lazy to think (they may be lazy to do any thing physically ) are in a better position to take advantage of opprtunities offered by IT revolution. Work smarter not just harder.

[raj2rif]

Dear Rajendra Ji and Dev Dahiya Ji,

I have seen practically all my life that more often than not a hard working person does not get what he deserves while a middleman makes more money.
While training near Mhow in M.P. State, I saw a farmer plucking fresh peas for selling in the market. I asked him, what price the peas were sold by him. He replied Rs. 1.00 per K.g. (1985). While he was getting only Rs. 1 for his hard work for over 4 months, with the investment of his land, the Bania in the subji mandi was selling the same item to consumer at the rate of Rs. 4/kg. It means what? The farmer was not woking as hard as the Bania was working. It has been the case with all the crops, be it wheat or sugercane.

It is because of this reason, I had been advocating that we need to establish a self distribution system among the farmer community. The bania is able to make more money because he has more to invest.
If we really want to help our village folks, we could help them by educating them to take the distribution system in our own hands and remove the middleman. Not only this will get more money to our farmers for their crops but also create some employment for our village youth. The poor is being kept poor by those who had money, politicians, civil servants and people who can manipulate the system.
Agreed, many of our folks are not smart, but should their simplicity be a curse to remain poor. We need to educate them. I am not the one advocating a free lunch, but if we can correct the system of compensation, probably we can do better. Gandhi Ji is not going to come and help us, some one among us has to take the batton and run to the finish.

[positivelook]

Dear members

good comments on topic but everyone have different views. I am totally agree with RK sir and Dev sir that poor in India are poor cos they are lazy and its true that in rural areas Farmers give their land on pAtta while cultivating by themselve so that they can play cards. I remeber few farmers from my own village who used to do that and other farmers who have less land than them are in well position in comparson to them.
Now Tavathia sir ur point is valid why middleman makes more money and answer is simple that he is smart and doing business and doing business is not easy, if farmers have the courage to open shops in market than they can also sell their products on reasonable rate. Take the example of that guy in 1985 if he has send his son to school and provided him good education than they are able to do business now after 20 yrs.

Bhai Sumit
yaar har baat mein sarkar. Now u r blaming Govt. for poverty well i m agree we have corruption in our country but wht can sarkar do if a person having 4 acres of land but he dont want to cultivate his land by own and give it to someone on Patta. Sarkar have setup minimum wage rate for Majdoors around 110 rs per day but wht sarkar will do if our own people dont want to pay 110 rs cos they think its too much. SO there are few things which even govt. cant change so we have to change our people and beleive me that is the only way to change our country.

Abhimanyu Phougat

[dahiyarules]

Yaar Abhimanyu!

Minimum wage is a hogwash. It means nothing. Even if there ar eemployers willing to pay 110 rupees to a mazdoor, what if the Mazodoor has a family of 12 to feed? So minimum wage makes no sense at all. Besides, measures like minimum wage lead to inflation. If such a measure will raise the purchasing power of the consumer, the demand for goods and services rises, leading to higher prices. Once the market is back in equilibrium, the 110 upees wont be enough to maintain a standard of living that was possible for a brief period after the wage increase.

One of the main reasons I lobby for free makrets is crony capitalism. It is a well known fact that Industrialists have a strong lobby in the Government. They manage to buy legislations in their favors. This way they manage to manipulate their way against the market forces of demand and supply. A "government regulation free" market will cast a death spell on crony capitalism. Once the industrialists will submit to the forces of market demand and supply they will have to go by the equilibrium standards of wages and remuneration for their workforce. Otherwise, their production will suffer from understaffing and unproductivity. ANd believe me, this is the last thing a manufacturer expects.

In the US, an average labourer makes over 30 dollars an hour, which is over six times the minimum wage. Why? The minimum wage is too less for someone to exhert phisical strength. They rather goto school, get a diploma and make 6 times sitting on the desk. However, they can overlook the opportunity cost of not going to school, and work right away for six times the minum wage. You need to realize the power of market forces of demand and supply.

India has a very large seciton of its population relying on agriculture. This was good after independence as we had a large population of uneducated people, and they found employment on farms. But, not that the population has grown exponentially, and farming has beocme more mechanized, agriculture is not able to sustain such a large number of people. People need to move out of this occupation, and find alternative means of employment. They need to get the requisite qualifications to work on other jobs, or they will keep suffering with 4 acre farming land. Government cannot produce more land over night, nor can it create employment. So people need to take the initiative to move out of this sector and move to other jobs.



Dear members

good comments on topic but everyone have different views. I am totally agree with RK sir and Dev sir that poor in India are poor cos they are lazy and its true that in rural areas Farmers give their land on pAtta while cultivating by themselve so that they can play cards. I remeber few farmers from my own village who used to do that and other farmers who have less land than them are in well position in comparson to them.
Now Tavathia sir ur point is valid why middleman makes more money and answer is simple that he is smart and doing business and doing business is not easy, if farmers have the courage to open shops in market than they can also sell their products on reasonable rate. Take the example of that guy in 1985 if he has send his son to school and provided him good education than they are able to do business now after 20 yrs.

Bhai Sumit
yaar har baat mein sarkar. Now u r blaming Govt. for poverty well i m agree we have corruption in our country but wht can sarkar do if a person having 4 acres of land but he dont want to cultivate his land by own and give it to someone on Patta. Sarkar have setup minimum wage rate for Majdoors around 110 rs per day but wht sarkar will do if our own people dont want to pay 110 rs cos they think its too much. SO there are few things which even govt. cant change so we have to change our people and beleive me that is the only way to change our country.

Abhimanyu Phougat

[dahiyars]

Dear Devji, Abhimanyu ji and others

Thanks a lot for your valuable comments to enrich my knowledge.Yet Andhra Pradesh farmers are committing suicide because they are under heavy debts because of higher inputs costs for farming. They worked very hard day and night and as a result there were bumper crops. But they did not get the reasonable prices for their crops.It was all inspite of their hard work.

Moreover a women who can keep my and our house very neat and clean is not able to keep her own house clean. Is it lack of her capability to keep the house clean or something else? Needs to be looked in to depth.

R.S.Dahiya

[devdahiya]

Dear Devji, Abhimanyu ji and others

Thanks a lot for your valuable comments to enrich my knowledge.Yet Andhra Pradesh farmers are committing suicide because they are under heavy debts because of higher inputs costs for farming. They worked very hard day and night and as a result there were bumper crops. But they did not get the reasonable prices for their crops.It was all inspite of their hard work.

Moreover a women who can keep my and our house very neat and clean is not able to keep her own house clean. Is it lack of her capability to keep the house clean or something else? Needs to be looked in to depth.

R.S.Dahiya



Dr saheb waisse mei kaffi likh chukka iss ke barre mei par phir bhi aissa lagtta hei ki shayadd meri baat jo mei kehna chahta huun wo ya to spasht taur par prastuut nahi ho pa rahi ya samajhne mei koi problem hei....whatever the reason i very strongly feel that poverty is of two types. First is by default and second is due to KARMA.It is not possible for even God to make everybody rich.Take it jungle or inland..yahan par SURVIVAL OF FITTEST wala formula chalta hei....So many wild animals eat grass and harm none but still they are the best food for the mighty lions and tigers.....WHY SHOULD THESE POOR SOULS BE PUNISHED TO DEATH FOR NO FAULT OF THEIRS? Any answers to that please? And worst is that the Nature[call God] also allowes it[permits] to maintain the balance. A woman who works in some house hold and keeps that house clean because she gets food by doing so and food is the most essential of all commodities.......And why she is not able to keep her house clean is basically due to lack of facelities[she doesn't have a house that needs that kind of cleaning] and lack of time and interest...but surely not that she can not do it....she can very well keep her house clean too but her priorities are different.


I never said that Govt/NGO or indviduals should not involve themselves for the good of lesser fortunates...one must do that in all humility but then if they want you to spoon feed them...it does not work and ends up being a cheap popular stunt. If our farmers are not getting proper rates for their product then it is not because of Govt apathy but probably due to the kind of stuff they produce ie Wheat etc...which happens to be the basic food item and if you are suggesting that the rates of Wheat and rice should be like gold or diamond than i am sure that you will end up contradicting your own concerns for poors and needy as they will not get even food to eat.....Please ponder over it Dr saheb. And hence i say it again...THose who work hard and use their brains to diversyfy as per the moving times will never be needing somebody's sympathy but those who do not want to do any thing and want this world to come to their door steps to make them rich and educated are living in fool's paradise.


Regards Dr Saheb

[birbal]

Dr. Dahiya raised a serious issue of poverty in the face of seemingly growing economy, but several responses have not dealt with the real issue. I brought in the ideological chasms in the picture because of what has happened globally in the last 30 years or so, since the rise of Right Wing ideology around the world beginning from Margaret Thacher and Ronald Reagan guided by Milton Friedman.

Data from around the world show that the opportunities of upward mobility for a substantial section of the society have been dramatically curtailed in this era. It is found that the living standards of the lower end of society have declined despite global growth.

I am not in any delusion of removing poverty completely, but at least some reasonably fair chance for the children to rise to their potential should exist. Such a fair chance did exist in the post W.W. II era until the political shift took hold.

I strongly disagree that in the India of today there are better opportunities. In fact, the modern economy needs well educated people, and since the opportunity for education of poor people are far worse today than were 50 years ago, the relative position of poor people has become lot worse. I remember teachers taking pride in my performance in the Govt. High School. But, the culture in the Govt run schools has changed completely, and the teachers do not give a damn for the education. I had asked one teacher about the lack of effort in teaching in our village school and he said " konse mere ko money order bhejenge." The preponderance of private schools has shut out a considerable section of the society from becoming productive citizens in the modern society.

I am not trying to single out India. Things are lot worse in the USA and the failure of their High Schools is well known. The only reason USA can maintain the competitive edge is due to the smart foreign graduate students and faculty members. But, the economic well being of an average American is going down and millions of them have lost the retirement benefits they took granted for their future security.

All I am trying to say here that this can not continue without causing social instability. John Kenneddy had said in his inaugration speech in Jan. 1961 that if the poor people are not given opportunity to get out of poverty, the rich will not be able to live in comfortable lifestyle. I do not blame Naxals and Nepalese Maoists. Why should they play the game when the rules of the game are loaded against them?

I am not complaining because I find myself in very privileged situation in all aspects despite my background. But, I look at the scene fairly instead of just blaming the disadvantaged. Knowledge was always equated with power but now it is lot more relevant in the present day knowledge-based society, and the poor are more and more excluded from access to knowledge.

[mukeshkumar007]

Knowledge was always equated with power but now it is lot more relevant in the present day knowledge-based society, and the poor are more and more excluded from access to knowledge.

very true sir.

[scsheorayan]

Respected Birbal ji,
Fully agree with your analysis but not with the message it sends out to those struggling to make ends meet. Without hope, the motivation is difficult. While individual can not change the world politics alone, he/she can choose the best options available. Inspite of all doom and gloom there are more career opportunities now then they were in our times. Those days you went to army or became a teacher unless ofcourse your parents could afford to send you to city for higher education. In that respect things are still the same but choices have increased. Struggling person has two choices i.e. to struggle and hope to make some progress or give up struggle and resort to crime. Our culture teaches us the value of hard work and Geeta has specifical emphasis on concentrating on efforts rather than results. Let us concentrate on efforts rather than worry unduly about results. The teacher in your example is a sample of modern Indian society turning to materialism so rapidly that slow acting communities like Jats are being left behind in this race. We all have a role to play i.e. of motivation and encouragement. Rather than following economic theories which are based on a number of assumptions that may or may not be applicable. In my opinion if we stick to first principles we are bound to make progress provided the chosen path is correct. Our culture is the greatest source of inspiration let us benefit from it. " Himmat ki Keemat Hai " Please Correct me if I am wrong but need to be positive is the greatest when all cards are stacked against you.

[rkumar]

Dr. Dahiya raised a serious issue of poverty in the face of seemingly growing economy, but several responses have not dealt with the real issue. I brought in the ideological chasms in the picture because of what has happened globally in the last 30 years or so, since the rise of Right Wing ideology around the world beginning from Margaret Thacher and Ronald Reagan guided by Milton Friedman.

Data from around the world show that the opportunities of upward mobility for a substantial section of the society have been dramatically curtailed in this era. It is found that the living standards of the lower end of society have declined despite global growth.

I am not in any delusion of removing poverty completely, but at least some reasonably fair chance for the children to rise to their potential should exist. Such a fair chance did exist in the post W.W. II era until the political shift took hold.

I strongly disagree that in the India of today there are better opportunities. In fact, the modern economy needs well educated people, and since the opportunity for education of poor people are far worse today than were 50 years ago, the relative position of poor people has become lot worse. I remember teachers taking pride in my performance in the Govt. High School. But, the culture in the Govt run schools has changed completely, and the teachers do not give a damn for the education. I had asked one teacher about the lack of effort in teaching in our village school and he said " konse mere ko money order bhejenge." The preponderance of private schools has shut out a considerable section of the society from becoming productive citizens in the modern society.

I am not trying to single out India. Things are lot worse in the USA and the failure of their High Schools is well known. The only reason USA can maintain the competitive edge is due to the smart foreign graduate students and faculty members. But, the economic well being of an average American is going down and millions of them have lost the retirement benefits they took granted for their future security.

All I am trying to say here that this can not continue without causing social instability. John Kenneddy had said in his inaugration speech in Jan. 1961 that if the poor people are not given opportunity to get out of poverty, the rich will not be able to live in comfortable lifestyle. I do not blame Naxals and Nepalese Maoists. Why should they play the game when the rules of the game are loaded against them?

I am not complaining because I find myself in very privileged situation in all aspects despite my background. But, I look at the scene fairly instead of just blaming the disadvantaged. Knowledge was always equated with power but now it is lot more relevant in the present day knowledge-based society, and the poor are more and more excluded from access to knowledge.

Birbal Singh Ji,

I fully agree with you here. There has been degradation all over and west is also sliding fast. There are health insurance problems and poor can not afford treatment in USA. Waiting lists are long in UK and Europe now. Quality of medical care is going down and down each day. Who is to be blamed for all this ? Hard working rich people or arrogant governments who are spending hard earned money of tax payers on invading nations? I totally agree with you on the issue of poor quality of schools available to rural poor. No doubt there are many issues and poor intelligent boys are not evenly placed like they were 30-40 years back. But again, how to set the balance? by fighting or by peaceful means? In today's world violence is not going to take anyone too far. There is need of people joining hands and marching to the parliaments of their nation in peaceful manner. Unity for cause with paeceful means only can change the fate of societies. Unity itself is the first indication that people are aware of problem and want a solution. It was this unity on a large scale which brough freedom to country. Same can be done to solve other problems which are eatintg the roots of our nation. Let us ask a question to all of us?

Why are we not uniting against the problems which all of us facing?

I don't think any government on the face of Earth is strong enough if people unite and approach the government to address the problem.

Rajendra

[gsvijay1]

I totally agree with you that in today's knowledge based society its very important to provide poor people access to knowledge.