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lrburdak
October 16th, 2006, 10:40 PM
Jats are the earliest kshatriyas. The mention of Jat word by the famous Sanskrit scholar Panini of 900 BCE in his Sanskrit grammar known as Ashtādhyāyī in the form of shloka as जट झट संघाते or “Jat Jhat Sanghate”. Which means the terms 'Jat' and 'democratic federation' are synonymous. It proves that the Jats are the most ancient people.

Jats in Shiva Stotra

Shiva Stotra is another most ancient epic, which mentions one thousand names of Lord Shiva, also mentioned in ‘Shalya Parva’ of Mahabharata, in which one of the names of god is ‘Jat’ and appears at serial number 489. Mahabharata Anushasan Parva chapter 17 shloka 89 reads as under:

महानखो, महारोमा, महाकोशो, महाजट: Mahānakho, Mahāromā, Mahākosho, Mahājata

प्रसन्नश्च, प्रसादश्च, प्रत्यो, गिरिसाधन: Prasannasha, Prasādasha, Pratyo, Girisādhana

Meaning - Mahanakha, Maharoma, Mahakosha, Mahajata, Prasanna, Prasada, Pratyaya, Girisadhana are the names of Lord Ishvara.

How old is Jat

According to an ancient story Brahma appointed Kartikeya as the commander of all the beings. Kartikeya got various gifts out of which there was a lord of all commanders named ‘Jat’. (Mahabharata Shalya Parva chapter 44 and 45). The shloka reads as under:

अक्ष: सन्तर्जनो राजन् कुन्दीकश्च तमोन्नकृत । Akshah santarjano rājana kundīkashcha tamonnakrita

एकाक्षो द्वादशक्षश्च तथैवैक जट: प्रभु ।। ५८ ।। Ekaksho dvadashkshashcha tathaivaika jatah prabhu

Meaning – Aksha, Santarjana, Kundika, Tamonnakrata, Ekaksha, dvadasha, and a ‘Jat’ lord of all (O Rajana ! gifted to swami Kartikeya)

It is believed in Hindu mythology that Brahma was the creator of the universe. As per Hindu cosmology the period of creation of the universe by Brahma was 1,97,29,49,108 years back in samvat 2063 (2006). It means the word ‘Jat’ is as old as the universe. [1]

Jats in Rigveda

Jats find a mention in most ancient Indian literature. Over sixty clans are named in the Rig Veda.[2] In the Mahabharata as they are mentioned ‘Jartas’ in ‘Karna Parva’. The famous Sanskrit scholar Panini]] of 900 BCE has mentioned in his Sanskrit grammar known as Ashtyāyī in the form of shloka as जट झट संघाते or “Jat Jhat Sanghate”. This means that the terms 'Jat' and 'democratic federation' are synonymous. He has mentioned many Jat clans as settled in Punjab and North west areas.

Jats in Grammar of Chandra

Jats are mentioned in the grammar treatise of Chandra of the fifth century in the phrase sentence अजय जर्टो हुणान or “Ajay Jarto Hunān, which refers to the defeat of Huns by the Jats under the leadership of Yasodharman. The inscription of Mandsaur also indicates that Yasodharman, the ruler of Malwa, was a Jat of the Virk gotra ( clan). [3]

Jats in the Deva Samhitā

There is mention of Jats in “Deva Samhitā” [4] in the form of powerful rulers over vast plains of Central Asia. For example in the 'Deva Samhitā' of Gorakh Sinha from the early medieval period, when Pārvatī asks Shiva about characters of Jats, Shiva tells her like this in sanskrit shloka-15 as under:

महाबला महावीर्या, महासत्य पराक्रमाः Mahābalā mahāvīryā, Mahāsatya parākramāh

सर्वाग्रे क्षत्रिया जट्टा देवकल्पा दृढ़-व्रता: Sarvāgre kshatriyā jattā Devkalpā dridh-vratāh

Meaning - 'They are, like gods, firm of determination and of all the Warriors, the Jats are the prime rulers of the earth.'

Shiva explains Parvati about the origin of Jats in Shloka –16 of Deva samhita:

श्रृष्टेरादौ महामाये वीर भद्रस्य शक्तित: hrishterādau mahāmāye Virabhadrasya shaktitah

कन्यानां दक्षस्य गर्भे जाता जट्टा महेश्वरी Kanyānām Dakshasya garbhe jātā jatta maheshwarī.

Meaning – 'In the beginning of the universe with the personification of the illusionary powers of Virabhadra and Daksha’s daughtergana's womb originated the caste of Jats'.

In the shloka-17 of 'Deva Samhitā' when Pārvatī asks about the origin of Jats, Shiva tells Parvati that:

गर्व खर्चोत्र विग्राणां देवानां च महेश्वरी Garva kharchotra vigrānam devānām cha maheshwarī

विचित्रं विस्मयं सत्वं पौराण कै साङ्गीपितं Vichitram vismayam satvam Pauran kai sāngīpitam

Meaning - 'The history of origin of Jats is extremely wonderful and their antiquity glorious. The Pundits of history did not record their annals lest it should injure and impair their false pride and of the vipras and gods. We describe that realistic history before you'.

Etymology of the word "Jat"

The most acceptable theory about the origin of the word, 'Jat' is that it has originated from the Sanskrit language word “Gyat” . The Mahabharata mentions in chapter 25, shloka 26 that Lord Krishna founded a federation ‘Gana-sangha’ of the Andhak and Vrishni clans. This federation was known as ‘Gyati-sangh’. Every member of this sangha was called Gyat.
over a period of time due to linguistic variaions it became Jat. [5]

The other prominent theory of the word's origins is that Jat came from the word Gaut tribal name of some Indo-Aryan tribes of Central Asia (such as those which later became Gauts/Goths and settled in Europe), which was written in 'Jattan Da Ithihas'. It has also been mentioned by Bhim Singh Dahiya. [6]

According to the historian 'Ram Lal Hala' the word Jat is drived from word 'Yat'. There was a king named 'Yat' in Chandra Vanshi clan who was ancestor of Lord Krishna. The Jats are descendants of King Yat. 'Yat' later changed to 'Jat'.[7]

Need to search epics

Since the word Jat existed from the beginning of the universe it must find place in various Indian epics. The main Indian epics worth mentioning are as follows: Vedas (Rigveda, Yjurveda, Samaveda, Athavaveda), Samhitas, Brahmanas, Aranyakas, Upanishadas, Vedanga (Shiksha, Chandas, Vyakarnas, Nirukta, Jyotisha, Kalpa), Mahabharata, Ramayana, Purana, Smriti, Bhagvadgita, Panchatantra, Kumar Vyasa Bharata, Stotra, Ramacharitamanas.

I searched some of the Indian and Hindu epics and produced as above some examples about the antiquity existence of word Jat and the history of Jats. It will be of great help to find more literature and linkages with the Jat history. In addition to the Hindu literature and epics the Buddhist and Jain books also have a great treasure about Jat history, not explored so far. Thus there is a need to research these sacred epics if we have to reconstruct the true Jat history.

References

1. Dr Mahendra Singh Arya, Dharmpal Singh Dudu, Kishan Singh Faujdar & Vijendra Singh Narwar, Adhunik Jat Itihasa, Agra 1998
2. Bhim Singh Dahiya, Aryan Tribes and the Rig Veda, Dahinam Publishers, 16 B Sujan Singh Park, Sonepat, Haryana,India,1991
3. CV Vaidya, History of Medieval Hindu India
4. Thakur Deshraj, Jat Itihas (Hindi), Maharaja Suraj Mal Smarak Shiksha Sansthan, Delhi, 1934, 2nd edition 1992 page 87-88.
5. Dr Natthan Singh, Jat-Itihas, (Jat History), page-41:Jat Samaj Kalyan Parishad, F-13, Dr Rajendra Prasad Colony, Tansen marg, Gwalior, M.P, India 474 002 2004
6. Bhim Singh Dahiya, Jats the Ancient Rulers, Dahinam Publishers, Sonepat, Haryana
7. Ram Lal Hala, Jat Kshatriya Itihas

cooljat
October 16th, 2006, 10:47 PM
very nice info uncleji
keep the great work up!

thanks a lot!

Rock on
Jit

vinodks
October 16th, 2006, 11:42 PM
Thats good write up Laxman ji...
However few issues... we need to look more carefully into this phrase of Astadhyayi... First of all, it has been overquoted without proper explanation of the context... No doubt, Panini and Patanjali(Mahabhasya) have written a lot about ancient republics but here it's important to see in what context word Jat is mentioned...
Panini wrote about Yaudeha's and they were in present day Haryana... history of clans with clan names bears more credibility than searching for Jat word... BTW, date of Panini is definately not 900BC... lets bring him 500 years closer...

Word for Shiva in Mahabharta as Mahajut: may also mean someone with grandeaur hair(Juts). We should look into meaning of surrounding words, like Mahanakho (with grandeur nails, nakha means nail in sanskrit), Maharoma(someone with great hairs, roma definetely means small hairs on body in sanskrit), Mahakosho (again if its Kesh, its another word for hair), so in same sense Mahajut: is more likely to mean someone with grand hair(Juta) rather than Jat... All these words are related to Shiva's appearance so meaning of Juta as hair is more fitting here... No doubt, mythical origin of Jats is that they orginated from Shiva's hairs, but its puranic fairy tale... however Joon interprets it as that people living in daob of Bhagirathi (Gunga, orginating from Shiva's hairs) are called Jats because they in geographical proximity of river orginating from Shiva's hair... Another similar argument can go like that. Sibi clan of Jats (Sibio of Alexander) were called Siva too and thats why Jats got assoicated to Shiva and his Jutts?

Dev Samhita is not ancient text, it was written after 10CE and the given verse(which also appears in Desraj's book) speaks about consciousness of underempathasis of history of Jats(so it appears to be later construction)... I think history of Jats in ancient time can't be fully recovered by looking for Jat word but its very much related to independent republics who have been struggling with imperialism since known history(be it Maurya, Kushan, Gupta)...

I agree with verse related to Yashodarman...
Finally, good article, keep it up...

-vinod



Jats are the earliest kshatriyas. The mention of Jat word by the famous Sanskrit scholar Panini of 900 BCE in his Sanskrit grammar known as Aṣṭādhyāyī in the form of shloka as जट झट संघाते or “Jat Jhat Sanghate”. Which means the terms 'Jat' and 'democratic federation' are synonymous. It proves that the Jats are the most ancient people.

Jats in Shiva Stotra

Shiva Stotra is another most ancient epic, which mentions one thousand names of Lord Shiva, also mentioned in ‘Shalya Parva’ of Mahabharata, in which one of the names of god is ‘Jat’ and appears at serial number 489. Mahabharata Anushasan Parva chapter 17 shloka 89 reads as under:

महानखो, महारोमा, महाकोशो, महाजट:

प्रसन्नश्च, प्रसादश्च, प्रत्यो, गिरिसाधन:

Meaning - Mahanakha, Maharoma, Mahakosha, Mahajata, Prasanna, Prasada, Pratyaya, Girisadhana are the names of Lord Ishvara.
[edit]How old is Jat
According to an ancient story Brahma appointed Kartikeya as the commander of all the beings. Kartikeya got various gifts out of which there was a lord of all commanders named ‘Jat’. (Mahabharata Shalya Parva chapter 44 and 45). The shloka reads as under:

अक्ष: सन्तर्जनो राजन् कुन्दीकश्च तमोन्नकृत ।

एकाक्षो द्वादशक्षश्च तथैवैक जट: प्रभु ।। ५८ ।।

Meaning – Aksha, Santarjana, Kundika, Tamonnakrata, Ekaksha, dvadasha, and a ‘Jat’ lord of all (O Rajana ! gifted to swami Kartikeya)
It is believed in Hindu mythology that Brahma was the creator of the universe. As per Hindu cosmology the period of creation of the universe by Brahma was 1,97,29,49,108 years back in samvat 2063 (2006). It means the word ‘Jat’ is as old as the universe. [1]

Jats in Rigveda

Jats find a mention in most ancient Indian literature. Over sixty clans are named in the Rig Veda.[2] In the Mahabharata as they are mentioned ‘Jartas’ in ‘Karna Parva’. The famous Sanskrit scholar Panini]] of 900 BCE has mentioned in his Sanskrit grammar known as Aṣṭādhyāyī in the form of shloka as जट झट संघाते or “Jat Jhat Sanghate”. This means that the terms 'Jat' and 'democratic federation' are synonymous. He has mentioned many Jat clans as settled in Punjab and North west areas.

Jats in Grammar of Chandra

Jats are mentioned in the grammar treatise of Chandra of the fifth century in the phrase sentence अजय जर्टो हुणान or “Ajay Jarto Huṇān”, which refers to the defeat of Huns by the Jats under the leadership of Yasodharman. The inscription of Mandsaur also indicates that Yasodharman, the ruler of Malwa, was a Jat of the Virk gotra ( clan). [3]

Jats in the Deva Samhitā

There is mention of Jats in “Deva Samhitā” [4] in the form of powerful rulers over vast plains of Central Asia. For example in the 'Deva Samhitā' of Gorakh Sinha from the early medieval period, when Pārvatī asks Shiva about characters of Jats, Shiva tells her like this in sanskrit shloka-15 as under:

महाबला महावीर्या, महासत्य पराक्रमाः Mahābalā mahāvīryā, Mahāsatya parākramāḥ

सर्वाग्रे क्षत्रिया जट्टा देवकल्पा दृढ़-व्रता: Sarvāgre kshatriyā jattā Devkalpā dridh-vratāḥ

Meaning - 'They are, like gods, firm of determination and of all the Warriors, the Jats are the prime rulers of the earth.'
Shiva explains Parvati about the origin of Jats in Shloka –16 of Deva samhita:

श्रृष्टेरादौ महामाये वीर भद्रस्य शक्तित: Shrishterādau mahāmāye Virabhadrasya shaktitaḥ

कन्यानां दक्षस्य गर्भे जाता जट्टा महेश्वरी Kanyānām Dakshasya garbhe jātā jatta maheshwarī.

Meaning – 'In the beginning of the universe with the personification of the illusionary powers of Virabhadra and Daksha’s daughtergana's womb originated the caste of Jats'.

In the shloka-17 of 'Deva Samhitā' when Pārvatī asks about the origin of Jats, Shiva tells Parvati that:

गर्व खर्चोत्र विग्राणां देवानां च महेश्वरी Garva kharchotra vigrānam devānām cha maheshwarī

विचित्रं विस्मयं सत्वं पौराण कै साङ्गीपितं Vichitram vismayam satvam Pauran kai sāngīpitam

Meaning - 'The history of origin of Jats is extremely wonderful and their antiquity glorious. The Pundits of history did not record their annals lest it should injure and impair their false pride and of the vipras and gods. We describe that realistic history before you'.
[edit]Etymology of the word "Jat"
The most acceptable theory about the origin of the word, 'Jat' is that it has originated from the Sanskrit language word “Gyat” . The Mahabharata mentions in chapter 25, shloka 26 that Lord Krishna founded a federation ‘Gana-sangha’ of the Andhak and Vrishni clans. This federation was known as ‘Gyati-sangh’. Over a period of time ‘Gyati’ became ‘Gyat’ and it changed to Jat.[5]

The other prominent theory of the word's origins is that Jat came from the word Gaut tribal name of some Indo-Aryan tribes of Central Asia (such as those which later became Gauts/Goths and settled in Europe), which was written in 'Jattan Da Ithihas'. It has also been mentioned by Bhim Singh Dahiya. [6]

According to the historian 'Ram Lal Hala' the word Jat is drived from word 'Yat'. There was a king named 'Yat' in Chandra Vanshi clan who was ancestor of Lord Krishna. The Jats are descendants of King Yat. 'Yat' later changed to 'Jat'.[7]

Need to search epics

Since the word Jat existed from the beginning of the universe it must find place in various Indian epics. The main Indian epics worth mentioning are as follows: Vedas (Rigveda, Yjurveda, Samaveda, Athavaveda), Samhitas, Brahmanas, Aranyakas, Upanishadas, Vedanga (Shiksha, Chandas, Vyakarnas, Nirukta, Jyotisha, Kalpa), Mahabharata, Ramayana, Purana, Smriti, Bhagvadgita, Panchatantra, Kumar Vyasa Bharata, Stotra, Ramacharitamanas.

I searched some of the Indian and Hindu epics and produced as above some examples about the antiquity existence of word Jat and the history of Jats. It will be of great help to find more literature and linkages with the Jat history. In addition to the Hindu literature and epics the Buddhist and Jain books also have a great treasure about Jat history, not explored so far. Thus there is a need to research these sacred epics if we have to reconstruct the true Jat history.

References

1. Dr Mahendra Singh Arya, Dharmpal Singh Dudu, Kishan Singh Faujdar & Vijendra Singh Narwar, Adhunik Jat Itihasa, Agra 1998
2. Bhim Singh Dahiya, Aryan Tribes and the Rig Veda, Dahinam Publishers, 16 B Sujan Singh Park, Sonepat, Haryana,India,1991
3. CV Vaidya, History of Medieval Hindu India
4. Thakur Deshraj, Jat Itihas (Hindi), Maharaja Suraj Mal Smarak Shiksha Sansthan, Delhi, 1934, 2nd edition 1992 page 87-88.
5. Dr Natthan Singh, Jat-Itihas, (Jat History), page-41:Jat Samaj Kalyan Parishad, F-13, Dr Rajendra Prasad Colony, Tansen marg, Gwalior, M.P, India 474 002 2004
6. Bhim Singh Dahiya, Jats the Ancient Rulers, Dahinam Publishers, Sonepat, Haryana
7. Ram Lal Hala, Jat Kshatriya Itihas

lrburdak
October 17th, 2006, 09:31 AM
In Hinduism, Virabhadra (Veerabhadra) (Sanskrit: वीरभद्र, IAST: Vīrabhadra) is a super being created by Shiva. Vīrabhadra was a great warrior who eventually blinded Bhaga, broke Pusha's (Sun) teeth and other gods including Indra fled the battle field unable to sustain his power. Vīrabhadra defeated Vishnu and Brahma in the war against Daksha. He is the head of Pramadas (the followers of Shiva).

Creation of Vīrabhadra

Sati was the youngest daughter of Daksha, the chief of the gods. When Sati grew up she set her heart on Shiva, worshipping him in secret. In the Swayamvara of Sati, Daksha invited all gods and princes except Shiva. Sati cast her wreath into air, calling upon Shiva to receive the garland; and behold he stood in midst of the court with the wreath about his neck. Daksha had no choice but to marry Sati with Shiva. [1]

One day Daksha made arrangements for a great horse sacrifice, and invited all the gods omtting only Shiva. Sati, being greatly humiliated, went to the banquet and Sati released the inward consuming fire and fell dead at Daksha's feet. Narada bore this news to Shiva. Shiva burned with anger, and tore from his head a lock of hair, glowing with energy, and cast upon the earth. The terrible demon Vīrabhadra sprang from it, his tall body reached the high heavens, he was dark as the clouds, he had a thousand arms, three burning eyes, and fiery hair; he wore a garland of skulls and carried terrible weapons. Vīrabhadra bowed at Shiva's feet and asked his will. [2]

Vīrabhadra Destroyed Daksha

Shiva directed Virabhadra: "Lead my army against Daksha and destroy his sacrifice; fear not the Brahmanas, for thou art a portion of my very self". On this direction of Shiva, Virabhadra appeared with Shiva's ganas in the midst of Daksha's assembly like a storm wind and broke the sacrificial vessels, polluted the offerings, insulted the priests and finally cut off Daksha's head, trampled on Indra, broke the staff of Yama, scattered the gods on every side; then he returned to Kailash. [3]

Vīrabhadra takes the form of Sharabha, a giant bird with four legs and two heads. Narasimha an incarnation of lord Vishnu looses control after killing Hiranyakashipu. He becomes furious and starts destroying everything around. All demi gods approach Shiva for help. Shiva sends Vīrabhadra to calm Narasimha. Vīrabhadra takes form of Sharabha, holds Narasimha in his clutches and presents him to Shiva. He cuts Narasimha's head and Shiva wears the skull it in his necklace. Vishnu gets released out of Narasimha's form with this exercise.

However, the version given in the Bhagavata purana states that none of the present demigods were able to calm Narasimha's fury, not Siva, not even the consort of Narayana, Laxmi.

The compromise with Shiva

After the destruction of Daksha's sacrifice, the defeated gods sought Brahma and asked his counsel. Brahma advised the gods to make their peace with Shiva. Brahma himself went with them to Kailash. Brahma prayed Shiva to pardon Daksha and to mend the broken limbs of gods and rishis. Shiva accepted his advice and restored the burnt head of Daksha with that of goat's head, and the broken limbs were made whole. Then the devas thanked Shiva for his gentleness, and invited him to sacrifice. There Daksha looked on him with reverence, the rite was duly performed, and there also Vishnu appeared riding upon Garuda. He spoke to Daksha, saying: "Only the unlearned deem myself and Shiva to be distinct; he, I and Brahma are one, assuming different names for creation, preservation, and destruction of the universe. We as the triune Self, prevade all creatures; the wise therefore regard all others as themselves." Then all the gods and rishis saluted Shiva and Vishnu and Brahma, and departed to their places; but Shiva returned to Kailash and fell once more into his dram. [4]

Vīrabhadra is prominently worshipped today in South India. The famous Lepakshi temple in Andhra Pradesh is dedicated to Lord Vīrabhadra. His is one of the primary Pancha-acharyas (gurus) for Lingayats.

Consort of Virabhadra - Bhadrakāli

Consort of Virabhadra was Bhadrakali, also known as the gentle Kali, is generally an auspicious form of the goddess Kali, and the legend states that she came into being by Devi’s wrath, when Daksha insulted Shiva. It is believed that Bhadrakāli was a local deity, which was assimilated into the mainstream Hinduism, particularly into Shaiva mythology. Sometimes, she assumes terrible aspect, and is represented with three eyes, and four, twelve or eighteen hands. She carries a number of weapons, with flames flowing from her head, and a small tusk protruding from her mouth. [5]

lrburdak
October 17th, 2006, 09:34 AM
Creation of Jats from Virbhadra

There is narration of story of creation of Virbhadra and destruction of Daksha in the book named Deva samhita consisting of Sanskrit shlokas (verses). It mentions about characteristics of Jats (shloka – 15) and their creation from Virabhadra and Daksha’s daughtergana's. [6]

Deva Samhitā' of Gorakh Sinha from the early medieval period, when Pārvatī asks Shiva about characters of Jats, Shiva tells her like this in sanskrit shloka (verse)-15 as under:

महाबला महावीर्या, महासत्य पराक्रमाः Mahābalā mahāvīryā, Mahāsatya parākramāh

सर्वाग्रे क्षत्रिया जट्टा देवकल्पा दृढ़-व्रता: Sarvāgre kshatriyā jattā Devkalpā dridh-vratāh

Meaning - 'They are, like gods, firm of determination and of all the kshatriyās, the Jats are the prime rulers of the earth.'
Shiva explains Parvati about the origin of Jats in Shloka (verse) –16 of Deva samhita as under:

श्रृष्टेरादौ महामाये वीर भद्रस्य शक्तित: Shrishterādau mahāmāye Virabhadrasya shaktitah

कन्यानां दक्षस्य गर्भे जाता जट्टा महेश्वरी Kanyānām Dakshasya garbhe jātā jatta maheshwarī.

Meaning – 'In the beginning of the universe with the personification of the illusionary powers of Virabhadra and Daksha’s daughtergana's womb originated the caste of Jats'.


Historical facts about the myths

The story of creation of Virabhadra from the Shiva’s lock and destruction of Daksha by Virabhadra and his ganas is mythical. It is not scientifically possible to creat a man from locks of hair but has some historical facts in it. This was the style of dramatizing facts at that time. We have to fit these mythical narrations in historical formats. Thakur Deshraj has explained that there was a clan of Jats named Shivi who had a republic ruled by democratic system of administration known as ganatantra. Kshudrakas had formed a sangha with Malavas. Shivis formed a sangha with a big federation or sangha known as Jat, which is clear from Paninis shloka in grammar of Ashtādhyāyī given below. [6]

Many books of Sanskrit literature have used ganas and sanghas frequently. The famous Sanskrit scholar Panini of 900 BCE has mentioned in his Sanskrit grammar known as Ashtādhyāyī in the form of shloka as जट झट संघाते or Jat Jhat Sanghate. This means that the terms 'Jat' and 'democratic federation' are synonymous.[6]


The historical facts about the mythical creation of Virabhadra have been further clarified by the historian RS Joon. He has clarified that Shiva lived in Gangotri Hills which, due to Shiva's popularity, came to be known as Shiva's Jata. The mountain ranges in that area is now known as Shivaliks. Raja Virabhadra of the Puru dynasty was the ruler of 'Talkhapur' near Haridwar, which also formed part of the area known as 'Shiv ki Jata'. [7]

This is the area around Haridwar. King Bhagiratha brought the Ganga to the plains in this region. According to legend the Ganga flows out from Shiva's Jata. Actually this also means that the Ganga flows out from the area known as 'Shiv ki Jata', the birthplace of the Jat Raja Virabhadra who was a follower and admirer of Shiva. On hearing of Sati's tragedy, Shiva went to the durbar of Virabhadra and pulled at his hair in fury while narrating the story. This infuriated Virabhadra and with his army, are invaded Kankhal and killed Daksha. [8]

Chronoly of Virabhadra

The historian Ram Swarup Joon has given the chronology of Virabhadra, obtained from the records of the Bards of Dholpur, in his book ‘History of the Jats’ (1938, 1967) as under: [9]

In the branch of Puru there was ‘Sanyati’ whose son was Virabhadra. Virabhadra had four sons 1. Ponbhadra 2. Kalhanbhadra 3. Atisurbhadra and 4. Jakhbhadra.

Ponbhadra is the originator of Punia gotra.

Kalhanbhadra is the originator of Kalhan gotra.

Atisurbhadra had Ajanta Jata Shankar and his son Dahibhadra in the lineage. Dahibhadra is the originator of Dahiya gotra.
Jakhbhadra is the originator of Jakhar gotra.


According to Ram Swaroop Joon, the descendants of above spread as under:

(a) Ponbhadra’s descendants Punias to Haryana, Brij, and Gwalior

(b) Kalhanbhadra’s descendants Kalhans to Kathiawar and Gujrat.

(c) Atisurbhadra’s descendants to Malwa

(d) Jakhbhadra’s descendants Jakhars to Punjab and Kashmir

(e) Dahibhadra’s descendants Dahiyas to Punjab and Central Asia


References

1.^ Sister Nivedita & Ananda K.Coomaraswamy: Myths and Legends of the Hindus and Bhuddhists, Kolkata, 2001 ISBN 81-7505-197-3
2.^ Sister Nivedita & Ananda K.Coomaraswamy: Myths and Legends of the Hindus and Bhuddhists, Kolkata, 2001 ISBN 81-7505-197-3
3.^ Sister Nivedita & Ananda K.Coomaraswamy: Myths and Legends of the Hindus and Bhuddhists, Kolkata, 2001 ISBN 81-7505-197-3
4.^ Sister Nivedita & Ananda K.Coomaraswamy: Myths and Legends of the Hindus and Bhuddhists, Kolkata, 2001 ISBN 81-7505-197-3
5.^ Anna Dallapiccola: Dictionary of Hindu Lore and Legend ISBN 0-500-51088-1
6.^ a b c Thakur Deshraj, Jat Itihas (Hindi), Maharaja Suraj Mal Smarak Shiksha Sansthan, Delhi, 1934, 2nd edition 1992 page 87-88.
7.^ RS Joon: History of the Jats’ (1938, 1967)
8.^ RS Joon: History of the Jats’ (1938, 1967)
9.^ RS Joon: History of the Jats’ (1938, 1967)

vinodks
October 17th, 2006, 10:05 AM
Thanks for writing this up Laxman ji, it will be very good quick reference. How ever I had few questions to all, has any non-Jat writer associated these tribes with Jats... Also, are Agrohas of Hissar Jats?... they are realted to Agratya whch was another small republic... 'Arjunayans' are associated with present Bharatpur and Alwar people by Jayaswal... they could also be Jats... Regarding Sibi, Raychaudhary associates them with Cholas of south too, although he doesn't (and nobody else does) deny their presense in north (Sibipura city in Kashmir or Punjab?)... One of the strongest people who fought with Alexander were Kathkian (present day Kathakas and kathas) about whom Ibbeston writes a lot but they are associated with Punwar Rajput... to quote Ibbeston (from Rose's book) "Like all Jats they (kathakas) take a particular pride in tracing their descent from a Rajput prince about the time of conversion to Islam. But an examination of their alleged predigree shows that like many other popular traditions of this kind, this account of their origin must be altogether fictitious." Now they are said to be Jats and their claim from Rajputs had been criticized by reputable authors. We also need to know more about Kathiawar Rajputs... basically most of the Rajputs would be found to have origin from "these people" (but we should be careful in calling them Jats too without reliable proof).. We need to to do more research about these people. And people in present Pakistan are important too.

>"We have to fit these mythical narrations in historical formats. Thakur Deshraj has explained that there was a clan of Jats named Shivi who had a republic ruled by democratic system of administration known as ganatantra. Kshudrakas had formed a sangha with Malavas. Shivis formed a sangha with a big federation or sangha known as Jat, which is clear from Paninis shloka in grammar of Ashtādhyāyī given below. [6]"

-vinod

nknauhwar
October 17th, 2006, 05:21 PM
I feel its good thread. But as Kalkhandeji tried once Jats should be searched in other epics, stories, lands and notable books of the world also.

vinodks
October 17th, 2006, 10:56 PM
I have deleted this from wikipedia

"महानखो, महारोमा, महाकोशो, महाजट: Mahanakho, maharoma, mahakosho, mahajat:

प्रसन्नश्च, प्रसादश्*च, प्रत्*ययो गिरिसाधन: Prasannashch, prasdashch, pratyayo girisadhan:

Meaning - 'The bearer of big nails, big hairs on the body, long hairs, with cheerful face, kind behaviour, trustworthy and habitant of hills is parmatma whose real name is Jat'.
"

Unless proper reference of meaning is provided, I would hold that Jut is hair not the name of people.

-vinod

saranrabar
October 17th, 2006, 11:46 PM
Several years ago, I attended a South Asian cultural event at Palo Alto, CA when various warrior cultures of the World were discussed by scholars of various origins. One person (Indian scholar) mentionned that the word JAT is related to the sanskrit word root ZAK.

Zak: to be strong or powerful , be able to or capable of or competent for; to be able to seize; according to Monier Williams Sanskrit English dictionary.

Does anyone have a further proof or disproof of the relationship between the sanskrit words JAT and ZAK?

ravichaudhary
October 18th, 2006, 02:10 AM
[QUOTE=lrburdak;119047]Jats are the earliest kshatriyas. The mention of Jat word by the famous Sanskrit scholar Panini of 900 BCE in his Sanskrit grammar known as Ashtādhyāyī in the form of shloka as जट झट संघाते or “Jat Jhat Sanghate”. Which means the terms 'Jat' and 'democratic federation' are synonymous. It proves that the Jats are the most ancient people.

************

Luxmanji, please do not take offence

How does this show that the Jat were "Kshatriyas"?

Jats have follwed all professions, spiritual. warriorism, agriculture, trading, medicine etc etc

Why are we trying to restrict them to the orthodox Hindu caste system?

In my view the Jats were Vedic in belief, first and foremost.

Attempts to show them as part of the caste system, by Jats is counter productive.

Do we even know that the word 'Kshatriya' existed in 600 BCE?

Is putting this sort of stuff onto Wiki etc, doing the study of Jat History much good ?.

Luxmanji may well be advised to proceed cautiously, and make haste slowly.

Best regards, and apologies if offence is caused.


Ravi Chaudhary

narenderkharb
October 18th, 2006, 09:42 AM
A little information.....???

Do vedics knew word kshrtriya ??

Also what is the exact sentence in Astadayayi is it JAT JHAT SANGHATE OR JaTA JHAT SANGHATE. As I read it is JaTA jhat sanghate.

PS .Its really heartening that we are ready to question each and every version in pursuance of a true jat history ,If we continue in the manner soon we will find the real facts that no body can question.

arunshamli
October 18th, 2006, 02:41 PM
Jats find a mention in most ancient Indian literature. Over sixty clans are named in the Rig Veda.[2] In the Mahabharata as they are mentioned ‘Jartas’ in ‘Karna Parva’. The famous Sanskrit scholar Panini]] of 900 BCE has mentioned in his Sanskrit grammar known as Ashtyāyī in the form of shloka as जट झट संघाते or “Jat Jhat Sanghate”. This means that the terms 'Jat' and 'democratic federation' are synonymous.


Burdak ji ,
Can you please give the chapter and sutra number from Ashtadhayi?

arunshamli
October 18th, 2006, 02:54 PM
How does this show that the Jat were "Kshatriyas"?

Jats have follwed all professions, spiritual. warriorism, agriculture, trading, medicine etc etc

Why are we trying to restrict them to the orthodox Hindu caste system?

In my view the Jats were Vedic in belief, first and foremost.

Ravi Chaudhary


I agree that caste division is a hindu thing.
But brahaman, kshatriya, vaishya and shudra exists in the vedas.

lrburdak
October 18th, 2006, 05:16 PM
Kshatriya (Hindi: क्षत्रिय, kshatriya from Sanskrit: क्षत्र, kshatra) is the title of the princely military order in the Vedic society. They are the warrior and ruling class in the varna system. The word means the protector of land. They are supposed to uphold the code of honour, bravery and loyalty. Everyone in the military and governing hierarchy from king to village chief and from general to foot-soldier is a kshatriya.

Comments

It was related to Varna system of Aryans much earlier than Hinduism came.

Initially there were only Kshatriyas prior to the Vedic society. Later came Brahmans. Much later came Vaishyas when the trading started in the society. Shudra is the lattest development.

Why Jats should not be classified Kshatriyas?

If not Kshatriya then where would we like to be placed ??

lrburdak
October 18th, 2006, 05:37 PM
'जट झट संघातेभ्वादिगरमय परस्मैपदी' - अर्थ: जट और झट धातु संघात अर्थ के प्रयुक्त होते हैं

अष्टाध्यायी अध्याय ३ पाद ३ सूत्र १९ और अध्याय ७ पाद २ सूत्र ११६ देखो

arunshamli
October 18th, 2006, 05:49 PM
'जट झट संघातेभ्वादिगरमय परस्मैपदी' - अर्थ: जट और झट धातु संघात अर्थ के प्रयुक्त होते हैं

अष्टाध्यायी अध्याय ३ पाद ३ सूत्र १९ और अध्याय ७ पाद २ सूत्र ११६ देखो

Burdak ji,

I also have a copy of ashtadhayi and the sutra you mentioned are
3.3.19 Akartari cha kaarke sangyayam
7.2.116 Ath updhayaya

I did not find "jat jhat sanghyate" anywhere close to these sutras.

ranjitjat
October 19th, 2006, 12:58 AM
Laxman ji
Good information.
I think you got my book Adhunik Jat Itihas from Jaipal agency Agra.
Have you able to get Indian Army history- France to Kargil from Agra ?
If not you can get from Gurukul Gautam Nagar - New Delhi 49.
or from Shaheed Dham Trust Bhiwani- Haryana
But in the post above you made me Dudu.
Never mind- Sab Chalta hae DUDU - GUDU

narenderkharb
October 19th, 2006, 09:28 AM
Burdak ji,

I also have a copy of ashtadhayi and the sutra you mentioned are
3.3.19 Akartari cha kaarke sangyayam
7.2.116 Ath updhayaya

I did not find "jat jhat sanghyate" anywhere close to these sutras.

Thanks Arun for taking pains .Now we can hope one Veda and sanskrit expert Jat can help us a lot in search of truth.

What is the view of other respected members in this regard .I would like Laxman ji Ravi ji Dudde ji and Sudhir ji to clear stand regarding this .

Shall we not drop this sentence once and for all in refernce for jat word in ancient books or Arun is at a mistake .

Let us make our history absolutely clear with out any Guess work .

As I have come to know we have a rich jat history that does not need the support of such words.

vinodks
October 19th, 2006, 09:31 AM
There might be mistake in verse no., so one can't be absolute sure. But I liked the following sentence...
For e-book of Ashtadhyayi
trasliteration
http://wikisource.org/wiki/A%E1%B9%A3%E1%B9%AD%C4%81dhy%C4%81y%C4%AB

Sanskrit
http://wikisource.org/wiki/%E0%A4%85%E0%A4%B7%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%9F%E0%A4%BE%E0%A 4%A7%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%AF%E0%A5%80

-vinod


a rich jat history that does not need the support of such words.

narenderkharb
October 19th, 2006, 10:35 AM
There might be mistake in verse no., so one can't be absolute sure. But I liked the following sentence...
For e-book of Ashtadhyayi
trasliteration
http://wikisource.org/wiki/A%E1%B9%A3%E1%B9%AD%C4%81dhy%C4%81y%C4%AB

Sanskrit
http://wikisource.org/wiki/%E0%A4%85%E0%A4%B7%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%9F%E0%A4%BE%E0%A 4%A7%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%AF%E0%A5%80

-vinod

What it there...????

Vinod more and more you plunge in to it(jat history)more and more you will like it.

Here we are arguing for a word whether Jat or not in panin period where he himself lived in the Jat kingdom ruled by Jat morya kings in appox.500BC.

Now Morya jats Kings ...???
In 500 BC......???
In Taxila.......???

This I would like you to find on internet also available on other jat sites.

arunshamli
October 19th, 2006, 06:09 PM
..............


What is the view of other respected members in this regard .I would like Laxman ji Ravi ji Dudde ji and Sudhir ji to clear stand regarding this .

Shall we not drop this sentence once and for all in refernce for jat word in ancient books or Arun is at a mistake .



I did not say the word does not exist in ashtadhayi, I only said I could not find it. and I am not an expert.

In my veiw reading history from a grammer book is not a very good idea and I believe that Ashtadhayi is a grammer book and it does not have history in it. But I definitly want to know the correct sutra where it exists.

vinodks
October 19th, 2006, 09:31 PM
I have followed those debates about Maurya being Jats (Dahiya's arguments too) and I am not fully convinced... people even associate them with Amorites and Chanakya with Magi priests... but its not well accepted view of history.... for now I would go with experts and consider them of Moria tribe...
we can discuss that in detail later...

-vinod


What it there...????

Vinod more and more you plunge in to it(jat history)more and more you will like it.

Here we are arguing for a word whether Jat or not in panin period where he himself lived in the Jat kingdom ruled by Jat morya kings in appox.500BC.

Now Morya jats Kings ...???
In 500 BC......???
In Taxila.......???

This I would like you to find on internet also available on other jat sites.

vinodks
October 19th, 2006, 09:33 PM
Arun, I also thought so but many people give importance to Astadhyayi in historical sense... it is said to meantion about people of Northwest India along with grammar... I haven't read it so no more comments...

-vinod


..............

I did not say the word does not exist in ashtadhayi, I only said I could not find it. and I am not an expert.

In my veiw reading history from a grammer book is not a very good idea and I believe that Ashtadhayi is a grammer book and it does not have history in it. But I definitly want to know the correct sutra where it exists.

vijay
October 19th, 2006, 09:49 PM
Respected Burdak Ji,

It feels so nice that you did this reasrech about our past and nice and genuine posts by Ravi Ji, Narender bhai, Vinod and Arun. I just want to be a part of the discussion but sorry to say i didn't read that epics and i should not say anything without reading any facts that are mentioned in our thousands years old epics and Vedas.

I will try to study them and will join the discussion soon. Plz continue the discussion and let us know all about ourselves what we are/were with solid proofs.

Hope to join you guys soon in the discussion.

Regards
Vijay

vinodks
October 19th, 2006, 10:19 PM
I guess nobody or very few of us have read these epic verse by verse. We get these facts from secondary references as are listed by Laxman ji himself. Good that more people are getting interested... following threads in jathistory yahoogroup and reading archives posts is good way to start I guess.

-vinod


Respected Burdak Ji,

It feels so nice that you did this reasrech about our past and nice and genuine posts by Ravi Ji, Narender bhai, Vinod and Arun. I just want to be a part of the discussion but sorry to say i didn't read that epics and i should not say anything without reading any facts that are mentioned in our thousands years old epics and Vedas.

I will try to study them and will join the discussion soon. Plz continue the discussion and let us know all about ourselves what we are/were with solid proofs.

Hope to join you guys soon in the discussion.

Regards
Vijay

vijay
October 19th, 2006, 11:22 PM
I guess nobody or very few of us have read these epic verse by verse. We get these facts from secondary references as are listed by Laxman ji himself. Good that more people are getting interested... following threads in jathistory yahoogroup and reading archives posts is good way to start I guess.

-vinod

Yeah Vinod bhai, i will try to read that and will post my views here after reading that. Otherwise is doesn't matter. Right ?

Respected Burdak Ji is doing an appreciable job and we must appreciate his hard working and if we have any doubts we should tell him so that he can research further and came out with some more facts.


My regards to Burdak ji for his research in this matter.


True knowledge is better than ignorance. Isn't it Vinod ?

vinodks
October 20th, 2006, 02:27 AM
Yeah you are right... Laxman ji's hard work is of course appreciated... what I meant was that you shouldn't be bothered by the fact that you haven't read epics... you could still could do research and contribute toward history.... good luck

-vinod



Yeah Vinod bhai, i will try to read that and will post my views here after reading that. Otherwise is doesn't matter. Right ?

Respected Burdak Ji is doing an appreciable job and we must appreciate his hard working and if we have any doubts we should tell him so that he can research further and came out with some more facts.


My regards to Burdak ji for his research in this matter.


True knowledge is better than ignorance. Isn't it Vinod ?

nknauhwar
October 20th, 2006, 07:32 PM
I have deleted this from wikipedia

"महानखो, महारोमा, महाकोशो, महाजट: Mahanakho, maharoma, mahakosho, mahajat:

प्रसन्नश्च, प्रसादश्*च, प्रत्*ययो गिरिसाधन: Prasannashch, prasdashch, pratyayo girisadhan:

Meaning - 'The bearer of big nails, big hairs on the body, long hairs, with cheerful face, kind behaviour, trustworthy and habitant of hills is parmatma whose real name is Jat'.
"

Unless proper reference of meaning is provided, I would hold that Jut is hair not the name of people.
-vinod

Vae jo hai Burdakji hamare neta (Siva) ka varnan kar rahe hain. In Indus valley one such seal was found that was surrounded by animals, three horn god/three eye god/trimutry of India and Scandinavia (thor, wodin n.... quoted Col. Todd). Till today our gotras (most of them) resemble animals, gadhe, kutte, chidiya- chironta (Maj. General Sparrow of Pnjyaabb) se le kar sher (amrita shergill) , hathi (Gajawat/Gajwal/gazni, sanskrit me haathi ko Gaj aur Sandhu/Sindhu ko ghoda/ashwa kahte hain) etc.

If we revert to the thread of Lord Siva. There, this point was lacking why Parvati is the wife of Lord Siva? "Habitant of Hills" here in this sloka confirms it.

nknauhwar
October 20th, 2006, 07:49 PM
Here evidences are destroyed. There are two theories in court of Justice. One is direct evidence and second is circumstantial evidence.

Plz orient your efforts to circumstantial evidence. Burdakji is building history where all proofs have been destroyed. But destruction of history could not destroy Jats and their royal/hard workin habits. All people from all over the world did come to India in search of many things. Some were too tyrants also but they could not displace Jats from their mainland Indus Valley area, right since the beginning of this civilization till today. You must be well aware that possession of this most fertile, safe, commercial (by sea routes it was at central place of the world) ....must not have been very easy.

So, where is that history? But, if you, really,are intersted in bashing absurd theories then I must say that all Indian History as it is taught today in schools to higheast level is JUST ABSURD. Its like that ke chhote bachhe ko aap ulti ginti sikha rahe ho.

lrburdak
October 22nd, 2006, 10:55 AM
Ganesha (गणेश or श्रीगणेश), "lord of the hosts," also spelled as Ganesa and Ganesh, often also referred to as Ganapati, is one of the most well-known and venerated representations of God. He is the second son of Shiva and Parvati, and the 'consort' of Buddhi. Ganas (Devanagari: गण) were attendants of Shiva and lived in Kailasa. Ganesha, second son of Shiva, was chosen as their leader by Shiva, hence his title Ganapati, "lord of ganas". [1]


Ganesha and jat connections

Image of Ganesha

The image of Ganesha is a composite one. Four animals, man, elephant, the serpent and the mouse have contributed to the makeup of his figure. All of them individually and collectively have deep symbolic significance in Hindu mythology.

Elephant head

The highly articulated mythology of Hinduism presents many stories which explain how Ganesha obtained his elephant head; often the origin of this particular attribute is to be found in the same anecdotes which tell about his birth. And many of these same stories reveal the origins of the enormous popularity of his cult.

The most well-known story is probably the one taken from the Shiva Purana. Once, while his mother Parvati wanted to take a bath, there were no attendants around to guard her and stop anyone from accidentally entering the house. Hence she created an image of a boy out of turmeric paste which she prepared to cleanse her body (turmeric was used for its antiseptic and cooling properties), and infused life into it, and thus Ganesha was born. Parvati ordered Ganesha not to allow anyone to enter the house, and Ganesha obediently followed his mother's orders. After a while Shiva returned from outside, and as he tried to enter the house, Ganesha stopped him. Shiva was infuriated at this strange little boy who dared to challenge him. He told Ganesha that he was Parvati's husband, and demanded that Ganesha let him go in. But Ganesha would not hear any person's word other than his dear mother's. Shiva lost his patience and had a fierce battle with Ganesha. At last he severed Ganesha's head with his Trishula. When Parvati came out and saw her son's lifeless body, she was very angry and sad. She demanded that Shiva restore Ganesha's life at once.

Unfortunately, Shiva's Trishula was so powerful that it had hurled Ganesha's head very far off. All attempts to find the head were in vain. As a last resort, Shiva approached Brahma who suggested that he replace Ganesha's head with the first living being that came his way which lay with its head facing north. Shiva then sent his celestial armies (Gana) to find and take the head of whatever creature they happened to find asleep with its head facing north. They found a dying elephant which slept in this manner, and after its death took its head, attaching the elephant's head to Ganesha's body and bringing him back to life. From then on, he was called Ganapathi, or head of the celestial armies, and was to be worshipped by everyone before beginning any activity.

Ganesha as the Head of the Republic

In North Indian Jat traditions, Ganesha is known as the Lord of the Gana (Republic). The word Ganesh is considered by them to formed by Gana + īsha, with sandhi at the join. Gana indicates the republic and the suffix ish indicates "Lord" or "Head". Ganesh is also known as Ganapati, the suffix 'pati' indicating Lord or protector of the Republic. According to the beliefs of the Jats, He guided the affairs of the republic. Nothing happened in the republic without his permission. A marriage ceremony would be performed with his blessings and entry to the republic area would be with his permission.

Ganesha was Jat

Ganesha was second son of Shiva and is considered to be the Jat god. Shiva is considered to be the progenitor of Jats. His descendants were known as Shivavanshi. The presence of Sheoran gotra in Jats is evidence of this. Sheorans consider themselves to be the descendants of Shiva. [2]

The implanting of elephant head has been rejected by Jat historians as it is not possible scintifically. [2]

It seems that this image of Ganesha was the result of the revenge of destruction of Daksha by Shiva's ganas in which Daksha's head replaced by that of a Goat. In a compromise formula Brahma prayed Shiva to pardon Daksha and to mend the broken limbs of gods and rishis. Shiva accepted his advice and restored the burnt head of Daksha with that of goat's head, and the broken limbs were made whole.

lrburdak
October 22nd, 2006, 10:57 AM
Meaning of gana

The meaning of Gana in Sanskrit is given by Monier Williams's dictionary as "flock, troop, multitude, number, tribe, series, class", adding that it can also be used to refer to a "body of attendants". It also defines Gana as "a company, any assemblage or association of men formed for the attainment of the same aims". [3]

Ganas as Shiva's attendants

The mention of ganas is in the form of attendants of Shiva in the story of creation of Virabhadra and destruction of Daksha in Hindu mythology. One day Daksha made arrangements for a great horse sacrifice, and invited all the gods omitting only Shiva. Shiva's first wife was Sati and daughter of Daksha Prajapati. Sati, being greatly humiliated, went to the banquet and Sati released the inward consuming fire and fell dead at Daksha's feet. Narada bore this news to Shiva. Shiva burned with anger, created Vīrabhadra who bowed at Shiva's feet and asked his will. [4]

Shiva directed Virabhadra: "Lead my army against Daksha and destroy his sacrifice; fear not the Brahmanas, for thou art a portion of my very self". On this direction of Shiva, Virabhadra appeared with Shiva's ganas in the midst of Daksha's assembly like a storm wind and broke the sacrificial vessels, polluted the offerings, insulted the priests and finally cut off Daksha's head, trampled on Indra, broke the staff of Yama, scattered the gods on every side; the he returned to Kailash. [5]


The above story of creation of Virabhadra from the Shiva’s lock and destruction of Daksha by Virabhadra and his ganas is mythical and not scientifically possible but has some historical facts in it. Thakur Deshraj has explained that there was a clan of Jats named Shivi who had a republic ruled by democratic system of administration known as ganatantra. Kshudrakas had formed a sangha with Malavas. Shivis formed a sangha with a big federation or sangha known as Jat, which is clear from Paninis shloka in grammar of Astādhyāyī given below. [6]

The historian Ram Swaroop Joon explains that Shiva lived in Gangotri Hills which, due to Shiva's popularity, came to be known as Shiva's Jata. The mountain ranges in that area is now known as Shivaliks. Raja Virabhadra of the Puru dynasty was the ruler of 'Talkhapur' near Haridwar, which also formed part of the area known as 'Shiv ki Jata'. [7]

This is the area around Haridwar. King Bhagiratha brought the Ganga to the plains in this region. According to legend the Ganga flows out from Shiva's Jata. Actually this also means that the Ganga flows out from the area known as 'Shiv ki Jata', the birthplace of the Jat Raja Virabhadra who was a follower and admirer of Shiva. On hearing of Sati's tragedy, Shiva went to the durbar of Virabhadra and pulled at his hair in fury while narrating the story. This infuriated Virabhadra and with his army, are invaded Kankhal and killed Daksha. [8]

Ganas in Sanskrit literature

In Panini's Astādhyāyī

Many books of Sanskrit literature have used ganas and sanghas frequently. The famous Sanskrit scholar Panini of 900 BCE has mentioned in his Sanskrit grammar known as Astādhyāyī in the form of shloka as जट झट संघाते or Jat Jhat Sanghate. This means that the terms 'Jat' and 'democratic federation' are synonymous.[6]

Panini in his grammar used gana as:

संघोद्घौ गण प्रशंसयो Sanghoddhau gana praśansayo

In Narada smriti

Narada smriti mentions as:

आदि शब्दों गण संघादि समूह विपक्षया Ādi śabdon gaṇa sanghadi samūh vipakshayā

It shows that the ganatantra (republic) system of rule was prevalent in India since ancient period.




In Shanti Parva

A detailed analysis has been done about ganas in chapter 107 of Shanti Parva in which Yudhisthira asks Bhisma about the ganas that how ganas increase, how they defend themselves from the dividing-policy of enemies, what are the techniques to conquer enemies and making the ganas friends, how they hide their secret mantras being in majority. The Bhisma’s answers to these questions have been recorded in the form of shlokas (verses) from 16 – 32 in Shanti Parva. [6]

In Vedas

Ganas have been narrated in Vedas in the form of assemblies of warriors as is clear from the following sutras if Rigveda (RV 3-26-6): [6]

व्रातं व्रातं गणम् गणम् Vrātam Vrātam ganam ganam

Gana in brief means an assembly. Ganatantra (republic) means a state run by assemblies.

The representative members of clans were known as ganas and their assembly as sanghas, there chief as ganadhipati or Ganesha and Ganapati.

[edit]Ganas in Buddhist literature
The Buddhist literature Mahabagga mentions that:

गण पूरकोवा भविस्सामीति Gana pūrkovā bhavissāmīti

It indicates that there was an officer who used to see the number of ganas and their koram in the Rajasabha (state assembly).[6]

During Buddhist period, the Buddhist books like 'Pali-pitaka', 'Majjhamnikaya', 'Mahabagga', 'Avadana shataka' have mentioned ganas and sanghas many times. During Buddhas period there were 116 republics or ganasanghas in India.

In Buddhist times, Ganas were assemblies of the Sanghas, early democratic republics known as Gana-rājyas, literally "rule of the assembly", a term paralleling democracy (demo-kratia) or Soviet republic. The term was revived in Bhārata Ganarājya, the official name of the Republic of India.

References

1.↑ Dictionary of Hindu Lore and Legend (ISBN 0-500-51088-1) by Anna L. Dallapiccola
2.↑ 2.0 2.1 Dr Mahendra Singh Arya, Dharmpal Singh Dudi, Kishan Singh Faujdar & Vijendra Singh Narwar: Adhunik Jat Itihasa (The modern history of Jats), Agra 1998
3.↑ Monier-Williams Sanskrit-English Dictionary
4.↑ Sister Nivedita & Ananda K.Coomaraswamy: Myths and Legends of the Hindus and Bhuddhists, Kolkata, 2001 ISBN 81-7505-197-3
5.↑ Sister Nivedita & Ananda K.Coomaraswamy: Myths and Legends of the Hindus and Bhuddhists, Kolkata, 2001 ISBN 81-7505-197-3
6.↑ 6.0 6.1 6.2 6.3 6.4 Thakur Deshraj, Jat Itihas (Hindi), Maharaja Suraj Mal Smarak Shiksha Sansthan, Delhi, 1934, 2nd edition 1992 page 87-88.
7.↑ Ram Swaroop Joon: History of the Jats (1938, 1967)
8.↑ Ram Swaroop Joon: History of the Jats (1938, 1967)

nknauhwar
October 22nd, 2006, 10:09 PM
Its a good knowledge. But I feel that all characteristics of Lord Siva like Bhooton ka Raja, "Killer and still Mahadev?" means when all fail then only Jats are called and once they are used they are discarded.

I'm not historical but political person. But I can sense as a common man that this sloka was a discovery which confirmed other characteristic of a Jat in the form of Siva, why he lives at Parvat and Why Parvati is his wife?

diwali mubarak ho, aap sub ko. Me ek chhoti moti post per hun mere liye koi sewa aap jaise bhaiyon ke liye chahiye to me hazir hun.

nknauhwar
October 23rd, 2006, 06:33 AM
I'm from UP Sir. But all my services in your feet. Next time do visit my home.

nkkhoth
October 23rd, 2006, 06:40 AM
I'm from Hanumangarrh Sir, please do visit my home also.

Mere ghar ka sirf itna sa pata hai us par sirf "Jat" likha hai.

nkkhoth
October 23rd, 2006, 06:53 AM
na dustak jaroori na awaz dena. me saanson ki aawaaz se jann loonga. ye Burdak hi hai me pahchan loonga.

Vo Shatrughn ko Raj diya mathura ka. Bharat ko khud ki ayodya de di. Kaal aaya khud Ram ka, us me lakshman ko phaansi de di.

us ke baad bhi lakhman burdak ji aap Jat ki sewa karna chahte hain. Diwali mubarak ho aap ko.

Ye Jat siway do char gali ke aap ko kuchh nahin dega.

vinodks
October 23rd, 2006, 08:37 PM
Again, Laxman ji... thats good post. Keep it up.

-vinod

arunshamli
October 25th, 2006, 04:44 PM
Arun, I also thought so but many people give importance to Astadhyayi in historical sense... it is said to meantion about people of Northwest India along with grammar... I haven't read it so no more comments...

-vinod

Vinod,
you could be right. But I would still say that things make sense in proper context only.

BTW, Do you know where in ashtadhayi this aphorishm exists? We may disagree on what it means but I just want to make sure that what we are quoting does really exist somewhere.

narenderkharb
October 25th, 2006, 06:46 PM
but I just want to make sure that what we are quoting does really exist somewhere.
Very true
Just wrote what I wanted to

narenderkharb
October 25th, 2006, 07:01 PM
Lord Shiva no doubt was the God of Jats living not only in Indus but belochistan, Makran Kamran Jiroft areas of Iran and Turan before the vedic culture.

lrburdak
October 27th, 2006, 10:38 PM
Krishna was of the royal family of Mathura, and was the eighth son born to the princess Devaki, and her husband Vasudeva in the Yaduvanshi Jat clan.

Birth of Krishna

Mathura was the capital of the closely linked clans of Vrishni, Andhaka, and Bhoja. They are generally known as Yadavas after their eponymous ancestor Yadu, and sometimes as Surasenas after another famed ancestor. Vasudeva and Devaki belonged to these clans. The king Kamsa, Devaki's brother, had ascended the throne by imprisoning his father, King Ugrasena. Afraid of a prophecy that predicted his death at the hands of Devaki's eighth son, he had the couple cast into prison where he planned to kill all of Devaki's children at birth. After killing the first six children, and Devaki's apparent miscarriage of the seventh, Krishna took birth. As his life was in danger he was smuggled out to be raised by his foster parents Yasoda and Nanda in Gokula, Mahavana. Two of his siblings also survived, Balarama (Devaki's seventh child, transferred to the womb of Rohini, Vasudeva's first wife) and Subhadra (daughter of Vasudeva and Devaki born much later than Balarama and Krishna).

Vrishni clan

Krishna belonged to Vrishni clan, which is a Jat clan. Vrishni (वृषणि) was a descendent of Yadu in Yadav vansh. Vrishni was born as eldest son of Maharaja Madhu in 19th generation of Yadu, the son of Yayati. He is a Chandravanshi Jat kshatriya. Vrishnis were the descendant of Vrishni. Krishna belonged to this branch of the Chandravanshi of Vrishnis from whom he got the name Varshneya. [1] The people of Dwaraka were known as the Vrishnis.

Migration of Vrishnis to Dwaraka

Jarasandha, father-in-law of Kans, invaded Mathura with a vast army; and though Krishna destroyed his army of demons, another asura, Kalayavan by name, surrounded Mathura with another army of thirty million monstrous fiends. Then Krishna thought it well to depart to Dwaraka. [2]

Wives of Krishna

Krishna had 16,108 wives. Krishna married Rukmini, daughter of King Bhishmaka of Vidarbha. He also married Mitrabinda, Satyabhama, Jambavati and others, winning each by great deeds; and another time, when a demon named Bhaumasura carried off and concealed many thousand princesses, Krishna pursued and slew him, and received these also into his house. Each of his wives had ten sons and one daughter. While Krishna was ruling at Dwaraka, Duryodhana was oppressing the Pandavas at Hastinapur and sought to compass their death. Krishna and Balarama went to give them help, and it was while Krishna was the Pandavas’ guest that he married Kalindi, daughter of Sun.[3]

End of Vrishnis

After the death of Duryodhana in Mahabharata, Krishna received the curse of his mother. She bewailed the death of her son and of friend and foe; then recognizing Hari as the Prime Mover, the One behind All, she cursed him for letting such things befall. This was her curse: that after 36 years Krishna should perish alone miserably and his people, the Vrishnis, should be destroyed. These things in due time came to pass. A madness seized the people of Dwaraka so that they fell upon one another and were slain, together with all sons and grandsons of Krishna. Only the women and Krishna and Balarama remained alive. Then Balarama went to the forest, and Krishna first sent a messanger to the Kuru city, to place the city and women of Dwaraka under the Pandavas protection, and then took leave of his father; afterward he himself sought the forest, where Balarama awaited him. Krishna discovered his brother seated under a mighty tree on the edge of the forest; he sat like a yogi, and behold, there came forth from his mouth a mighty snake, the thousand headed naga, Ananta, and glided away to ocean. Ocean himself and the sacred rivers and many divine nagas came to meet him. Thus Krishna beheld his brother depart from human world, and he wandered alone in forest. He thought of Gandhari’s curse and all that had befallen, and he knew that the time had come for his own departure. He restrained his senses in yoga and laid himself down. Then there came a hunter that way and thought him a deer, and loosed a shaft and pierced his foot; but when he came close the hunter beheld a man wrapped in yellow robes practicing yoga. Thinking himself an offender, he touched his feet. Then Krishna rose and gave him comfort, and himself ascended to Heaven.[4]

Arjuna went to Dwaraka and brought away the women and children of the Vrishnis, and set out for Kurukshetra. On the way a band of warriors attacked the cavalcade and carried away a great part of women. Arjuna established the others with the remnants of Krishna’s descendants in new cities; but Rukmini and many others of Krishna’s wives became Sati, burning themselves on pyre, and others became ascetics and nuns. The waters of ocean advanced and overwhelmed Dwaraka so that no trace remained.[5]

Krishna was Jat

The evidences from history and literature in support of the fact that [[Krishna]] was Jat are as under:-


When Jarasandha invaded Mathura with a vast army; and another asura, Kalayavan by name, surrounded Mathura with army of thirty million monstrous fiends, Then Krishna departed to Dwaraka along with Andhakas, Vrishnis, Bhojas etc clans. Mahabharata mentions in chapter 25, shloka 26 that Lord Krishna founded a federation ‘Gana-sangha’ of Andhak and Vrishni clans. This federation was known as ‘Gyati-sangh’. Each member of this ‘Gyati-sangh’ was known as ‘Gyat’. Krishna was chief of this sangha. Over a period of time ‘Gyati’ became ‘Gyat’ and it changed to Jat. The use of sutra - ''Jat jhat sanghate'' in sanskrit by Panini's grammar seems to have started from here. Thus Krishna is the real ancestor and founder of Jats. [6] [7]

According to Pandit Lekhraj descendants of Yadu are known as Yadavas after their eponymous ancestor Yadu. Yadu changes to Yadav which changes to Jadav and Jat as per Sanskrit grammar. [8]

The Arabian traveller Al-Biruni has mentioned that Lord Krishna was a Jat. [9] The Muslim contries have a notion that Jats are the ancestors of Yadavas.

James Todd writes that Jats are Yadavas. [10]

Mr Neshfield, a renowned scholar of Indology, writes that The word Jat is nothing more than the modern Hindi pronunciation of Yadu or Jadu, the tribe in which Krishna was born.

The Sinsinwar Jat rulers of Bharatpur have been recorded as Yadavavanshi, the descendants of Krishna. [11]

UN Sharma has mentioned the chronology of Krishna in which starting from Sindhupal in 64th generation of Krishna to Bharatpur ruler Maharaja Brijendra Singh (1929-1948) all the rulers are mentioned as Yaduvanshi Jats. [12]

Almost all early Jat rulers have been mentioned by contemporary poets as Yaduvanshis. The poet Sudan [13], poet Somnath [14], poet Udayram [15] have write about the origin of Sinsinwar Jat rulers of Bharatpur as under -

तीन जाति जादव की, अंधक, विस्नी, भोज ।
तीन भांति तेई भये, तै फिर तिनही षोज ।।
पूर्व जनम ते जादव विस्नी ।
तेई प्रकटे आइ सिनसिनी ।।

Jat historian Bhaleram Beniwal has written after recent researches with evidences in his book "Jāton kā Ādikālīn Itihās" that Krishna was by all evidences noting other than Jat. He has mentioned the above refered evidences in addition to the following authors which mention Krishna as Jats. [16] These are Yogendrapal Shastri[17], Motilal Gupta [18] Walter Hamilton [19].

Note:- The article is also available on Jatland Wiki at URL-

"http://www.jatland.com/home/Lord_Krishna"




References

1.↑ Dr Mahendra Singh Arya, Dharmpal Singh Dudi, Kishan Singh Faujdar & Vijendra Singh Narwar: Adhunik Jat Itihasa (The modern history of Jats), Agra 1998
2.↑ Sister Nivedita & Ananda K.Coomaraswamy: Myths and Legends of the Hindus and Bhuddhists, Kolkata, 2001 ISBN 81-7505-197-3
3.↑ Sister Nivedita & Ananda K.Coomaraswamy: Myths and Legends of the Hindus and Bhuddhists, Kolkata, 2001 ISBN 81-7505-197-3
4.↑ Sister Nivedita & Ananda K.Coomaraswamy: Myths and Legends of the Hindus and Bhuddhists, Kolkata, 2001 ISBN 81-7505-197-3
5.↑ Sister Nivedita & Ananda K.Coomaraswamy: Myths and Legends of the Hindus and Bhuddhists, Kolkata, 2001 ISBN 81-7505-197-3
6.↑ Mahabharata: Krishna – Narad Uvach
7.↑ Thakur Deshraj: Jat Itihas (Hindi), Maharaja Suraj Mal Smarak Shiksha Sansthan, Delhi, 1934, 2nd edition 1992. Page 106-109
8.↑ Parmesh Sharma & Rajpal Shastri: Kshatriyon ka Itihas
9.↑ Al-Biruni, India:Translated by Kayamuddin, Published by National Book Trust, India, 1997 page-176
10.↑ James Todd: Annals and Antiquities of Rajasthan, 2 Vols., Routledge & Kegan Paul Ltd., London, 1972 (reprint), first published in 1829
11.↑ Dr. Prakash Chandra Chandawat: Maharaja Suraj Mal aur unka yug, Jaypal Agencies Agra, 1982
12.↑ UN Sharma :Jaton ka Navin Itihas
13.↑ Sudan: Sujan-charitra, page-4
14.↑ Somnath: Sujanvilas,page 133
15.↑ Udayram: Sujan samva
16.↑ Bhaleram Beniwal : "Jāton kā Ādikālīn Itihās" (page 26-30), Jaypal Agencies Agra
17.↑ Yogendrapal Shastri:Jaton ka utkarsh (page286)
18.↑ Motilal Gupta: Matsya Pradesh ki Hindi Sahitya ko den (page214)
19.↑ Walter Hamilton: The east India Gazeteer (Vol. 1, page 233)

kharub
October 29th, 2006, 04:50 PM
brilliant piece of work ..... I salute you ...

lrburdak
October 29th, 2006, 10:00 PM
Rama (राम) Rāmachandra or Śrī Rāma (श्रीराम), was a king of ancient Ayodhya whose grand story is portrayed in the epic Ramayana. Suryavanshi Vaivasvat Manu's son was Ikshvaku, king of Ayodhya. Ikshvaku's son was Vikukshi and Vikukshi's son was Purjanya. Purjanya defeated Asuras in Deva-asura war as a result of which he was popular as 'Kakustha'.

Some facts from Ramayana

Sugriva was the king in exile of the state in which Ravana carried Sita away. Rama sought the help of the great monkey Sugriva, and the four other monkeys that dwelt on the mountain Rishyamuk. There Sugriva told Rama that he had seen Sita carried away by Ravana and how she had dropped her veil and jewels, and he showed these tokens to Rama and Lakshmana. Rama fared with Sugriva to Vali's city, and overcame Vali and established Sugriva on the throne. Sugriva sent out his marshals to summon the monkey host. They came from Himalaya, Vindhya, Kailash, from east and from west, from far and near, from caves and forests, in hundreds and thousands and millions, and each was captained by a veteran leader. Then Sugriva gave them to Rama and placed under his command. [1]

Rama and Sugriva relied on Hanuman, and gave him his signet ring to show for sign to Sita when he should discover her. A month had passed and monkeys did not find Sita. But there dwelt a mighty and very aged vulture named Sampati in a neighbouring cave, and he, hearing the name of his brother Jatayu, Sampati answered that he had seen Sita carried away by Ravana and that Ravana dwelt in Lanka, a hundred leagues across sea. [2]

Jat republics of Ramayana period

The marshals Sugriva had sent out in search of Sita were all from Jat republics. [3] The republics involved were 1. Videhi 2. Malav 3. Magadh 4. Pudru 5. Dasharna 6. Vidarbha 7. Prishika 8. Vanga 9. Matsya 10. Andhra 11. Vain 12. Chol 13. Pandya 14. Parsen 15. Bhadra 16. Shaka 17. Naga 18. Vahika 19. Daratha 20. Sindhu 21. Kusha 22. Bhoktipur. In addition following Jat republics were also also there namely Panchal, Vrishni, Bhoj, Kshudrak, Taxak, Kaler, Maan, Punia, Aulakh, Bain (Beniwal), which were in Nagavansh sangha. The nagavansha was very powerful at that time. [4]

Connections with Kak or Kakrana Jats

From 'Kakustha' started a Jat vansha known as 'Kusth' or Kakvansh. This later changed due to language variations to 'Kakustha', Kāk, Kāktīya, Kakka, Kuk, Kukkur, Kak and Kākarāṇ. In this very clan was born Dashratha's grandfather Raghu who started Raghuvansh. Raghuvanshi Jats are also descendants of him who are also known as 'Raghuvanshi Sikarwar’. During Ramayana period, in Balmiki Ramayana, Deva samhita, Vishnu Puran, Shiv Puran, Vedas etc there is mention of Jats and their republics at various places. Jatvansha joined his army of Vashishtha Rishi in his support and fought war with Vishvamitra. This was a very severe war in which thousands of Jat soldiers were killed. [5]

Bhaleram Beniwal has provided evidences from ‘Balkand ekonavish sarga shloka-16’, ‘Balkand dvavish sarga shloka-6’, ‘Balkand dvavish sarga shloka-20’, ‘Balkand panchvish sarga shloka-15’, ‘Balkand pratham sarga shloka-56’ to prove that Dashratha and his son Rama were ‘kakusth’ and Raghuvanshi Jats. Rama has been addressed by the names Raghunandan, Raghukul, Kakasthkul, and Raghuvanshi. Later Lava, elder son of Rama started Lamba gotra in Jats and Kusha started Kachhavahi or kushavansha whose descendant Brahdal was killed by Abhimanyu, son of Arjuna. Suryavanshi kushavansha Jats ruled Ayodhya from 3100 BC to 500 BC. In the 21st generation of Ikshvaku was born Mandhata who has been written and proved as Gaurvanshi Jat in genealogy of Suryavanshi kings. [6] One of sons of Mandhata was Ambarish. His son was Yuvanashva and his son was Harit, who was a great Rishi. The descendants of this king became Brahman who were known as Gaur Brahmans. [7]

Animal depiction of warriors

When Rama besieged Lanka, all his supporters like Kishkindha king Sugriva and his commander Hanuman, Jatayu, Jamvanta etc were Jat warriors. Bhaleram Beniwal has pointed out that these characters have been depicted as monkeys or animals is out of jealousy of the manuvadis and agents of dharma who never wanted to bring the true history of Jats. [8]

The Jat hostorian Thakur Deshraj has explained about the reasons of animal depiction of people prevalent in India during Ramayana period. During this period all four varnas had come into existence in Aryans. The duties of each varna were defined but they could change varna. Brahmans had come into a dominant position and had full control over kings and the society. Some kshatriyas like Kartaviryarjuna had become rebellions against the increased influence of Brahmans. In Sarswati ashrama a big organization under the leadership of Parsurama was constituted by Brahmans to penalize such kshatriyas. Brahmans suppressed kshatriyas like Kartaviryarjuna and deprived these kshatriyas from their status. The Aryans by this time had crossed Vindhyas and moving towards south. Vanars were inhabitants in southwest Vindhyas. Pampa sarovar was their main center. Vanars were not monkeys but either aboriginal inhabitants of that area or people of Aryan groups who had come from Iran via Bombay and reached south of Vindhyas. [9]

Other Jat historians have also treated Hanuman as a Jat warrior of Maan gotra. [10] Some other historians treat Vanar as a gotra of jats found in Haryana in India. Lord Hanuman of Ramayana was a kshatriya of Vanar clan. He was not a monkey as is shown in Ramayana. [11]

References

1.↑ Sister Nivedita & Ananda K.Coomaraswamy: Myths and Legends of the Hindus and Bhuddhists, Kolkata, 2001 ISBN 81-7505-197-3
2.↑ Sister Nivedita & Ananda K.Coomaraswamy: Myths and Legends of the Hindus and Bhuddhists, Kolkata, 2001 ISBN 81-7505-197-3
3.↑ Balmiki Ramayana sarga 40-43
4.↑ Bhaleram Beniwal: Jāt Yodhaon ke Balidān, Jaypal Agencies, Agra 2005 (Page 38)
5.↑ Bhaleram Beniwal: Jāt Yodhaon ke Balidān, Jaypal Agencies, Agra 2005 (Page 38)
6.↑ Vishnu Puran part IV Chapter 2-3
7.↑ Bhaleram Beniwal: Jāt Yodhaon ke Balidān, Jaypal Agencies, Agra 2005 (Page 39-40)
8.↑ Bhaleram Beniwal: Jāt Yodhaon ke Balidān, Jaypal Agencies, Agra 2005 (Page 40-41)
9.↑ Thakur Deshraj: Jat Itihasa (Hindi), Maharaja Suraj Mal Smarak Shiksha Sansthan, Delhi, 1934, 2nd edition 1992 (Page 15-19)
10.↑ Dr Mahendra Singh Arya, Dharmpal Singh Dudi, Kishan Singh Faujdar & Vijendra Singh Narwar: Ādhunik Jat Itihasa (The modern history of Jats), Agra 1998 (Page 289)
11.↑ Jat Samaj: Agra November 1999

vinodks
October 30th, 2006, 08:06 PM
Jat republics of Ramayana period

The marshals Sugriva had sent out in search of Sita were all from Jat republics. [3] The republics involved were 1. Videhi 2. Malav 3. Magadh 4. Pudru 5. Dasharna 6. Vidarbha 7. Prishika 8. Vanga 9. Matsya 10. Andhra 11. Vain 12. Chol 13. Pandya 14. Parsen 15. Bhadra 16. Shaka 17. Naga 18. Vahika 19. Daratha 20. Sindhu 21. Kusha 22. Bhoktipur. In addition following Jat republics were also also there namely Panchal, Vrishni, Bhoj, Kshudrak, Taxak, Kaler, Maan, Punia, Aulakh, Bain (Beniwal), which were in Nagavansh sangha. The nagavansha was very powerful at that time. [4]



Laxman ji, Where is it mentioned that above mentioned republics were Jats?
2) I think it's Mall(Bihar) not Malava(Malloi of Punjab) here, these are two different groups.
8) Vanga was in current Bangal, they consisted mostly non-aryan (or mixture)population. Whats proof that Vanga has anything to do with Jats?
9) Matsya was in current Jaipur, again the proof?
10) Pandya, now thats height. If same as Pandya dynasty, their kingdom was in extreme tip of southern Deccan... Proof?
12) Is this Chol of southern Chola? Then please provide proof.
17) What do Naga have to do with Jats? I am not denying, I am just asking proof. Nagas ruled North India after decline of Kushans and before rising of Maukhari and Gupta. It would be interesting to know relation of these Nagas with Jats.

There are other points in post which could be discussed but lets go step by step.

-vinod

lrburdak
October 30th, 2006, 08:56 PM
Hi Vinodji,

I have cited reference and again citing the book and author with page number-

Bhaleram Beniwal: Jāt Yodhaon ke Balidān, Jaypal Agencies, Agra 2005 (Page 38)

If you see Dilip Singh Ahlawat's jat Viron ka Itihas and Dudi's Adhunik Itihas again you find mentioned many Nagas as Jats.

regards,

mann123
October 31st, 2006, 01:55 AM
Laxman jee,

Hanuman pe to log mujhe joke martee hai ke Hanuman Jat thaa Hanu uska naam aur Maan uska gotra thaa.

but you are saying it was true that hanuman was a Jat? seems to be questionable.

Second thing ke agar pura bharat pe Jaton ka raaj thaa to Jaton ke population Bharat me sirf 2% hi kyo hai.

kharub
October 31st, 2006, 03:21 AM
Mann Bhai the rulers always belong to an elite class and more than often as history has proved they have no blood or clan relationship with their subjects.

So it is highly likely that Jats did rule most of the country but they themselves form a very small proportion of the total population and are mostly found in one certain region.

The British Royal family for example is 0% british 50% German 25% Danish and 25% French .... same for the Jordanian Royal family 25% British 75% Saudi ......... and most of the Royal families are the same .....

mann123
November 1st, 2006, 12:01 AM
Mann Bhai the rulers always belong to an elite class and more than often as history has proved they have no blood or clan relationship with their subjects.

So it is highly likely that Jats did rule most of the country but they themselves form a very small proportion of the total population and are mostly found in one certain region.

The British Royal family for example is 0% british 50% German 25% Danish and 25% French .... same for the Jordanian Royal family 25% British 75% Saudi ......... and most of the Royal families are the same .....

Bhai Kharub

you are right but in my opinion is we all were follower of someone and using there name as gotra (not actually there descendent). if we see the historical facts in Sikhism all who were following Guru Gobind Singh jee started using SINGH as there surname whether they belongs to any caste (chamar, dhanak, khatri, sindhi, and even Jats which were called Jatts after that).

Second thing which i had seen is that Jats in different area is treated differently say in Haryana they are most respected and treated all above in Kshatriyas and in Rajasthan they are treated as inferior by Rajputs and in UP its different again. So what i think is all were dependent on the king there if the king is Rajput they are treated as inferior if the king is Jat they are superior. So it doesn't seems to be logical they we were descendent of Yadav, Shree Ram or Shree Krishan etc.

kharub
November 1st, 2006, 12:41 AM
Mann Bhai Rajputs are no different from Jats ... they are a Jat sub Clan

Rajputs are the Jats who accepted the Brahmanical Order in order to be classified as a superior clan ....

A lot of Rajput and Jat Gotras are the same and a lot of Rajput Clans to this day claim descent their from Jats and so many famous kings have been calimed as Rajput in some books and Jat in some because there was no clear difference .......

So there you go ... Brahamans have fed us with the history we know now .. and they have always tried to play Jats down because Jats have defied them throughout history ..... this was the reason they used Jats (Rajputs) to counter Jats .....

lrburdak
November 6th, 2006, 07:29 AM
Hi members,

There is a useful discussion with an expert of Chinese and Buddhist literature is going on with Wikipedia's discussion page of Jat article on it, at URL-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Jat

I place it below for knowledge and adding more info available with members so that Jat article on Wikipedia can be updated accordingly. Please also provide source of your info which is a must to make it authentic on Wikipedia. Thanks
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Migration of Jats
There are historians who consider Jats to be of Indo-Aryan origin. On the basis of ethnological, physical and linguistic standards by many historians like E.B.Havell[1], Qanungo[2], C.V.Vaidya[3], Sir Herbert Risley [4], Thakur Deshraj[5], Mangal Sen Jindal[6]etc., who condider Jats to be Indo-Aryan. Dr Natthan Singh writes that Jats were the pure Aryans and their original homeland was Sapta Sindhu. On the basis of historical facts the Jats are reported to be present in India from 3102 BC. [7] [8] They had to migrate from India on economic, social and political reasons for some period but they returned back to India. In the migration also they did not leave their language and cultural traditions. Due to this reason only Jats do not have linguistic or physical similarities with Huns and Scythians. [9] This view is also supported by Thakur Deshraj who writes that on the basis of ethnological, physical, cultural and linguistic standards Jats are pure Aryans who inhabited the areas on the banks of Ganga-Yamuna or Sarswati-Sindhu during Vedic civilization. [10]

There is other group of Historians like, Sir Alexander Cunnigham [11] and Col James Tod [12], Bhim Singh Dahiya, V. Smith etc who consider the Jats to be of Indo-Scythian stock.

There are data available about genetics of Jats as discussed above.
There is need to clear this position on solid historical facts. It is proposed to add a new section in this article about the migration of Jat population. The migration of Jats has not been mentioned in the article so far. The migration pattern, period and the movement will lead to more clear history and theory about origin of Jats. burdak 11:32, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

^ 1.E.B.Havell: The history of Aryan rule in India, page 32
^ 2.Qanungo: History of the Jats
^ 3.C.V.Vaidya: History of Medieval Hindu India
^ 4.Sir Herbert Risley: The People of India
^5. Thakur Deshraj: Jat Itihasa
^6. Mangal Sen Jindal: History of Origin of Some Clans in India
^ 7.Dr Natthan Singh: Jat - Itihas (Hindi), Jat Samaj Kalyan Parishad Gwalior, 2004 (Page 9)
^ 8.CV Vaidya: Mahabharata a criticizm, Bombay 1904 (Page 55-78)
^9. Dr Natthan Singh: Jat - Itihas (Hindi), Jat Samaj Kalyan Parishad Gwalior, 2004 (Page 38)
^ 10.Thakur Deshraj: Jat Itihasa, Page 64
^ 11.Alexander Cunningham, History of Sikhs
^ 12.James Tod, Annals

Query on historical accuracy of dates for Jats
Dear Shri L R Burdak:

I have just noticed your recent comments. First, I have added a marker to your note which allows all the references you gave to be easily readable - I hope this is O.K. with you?

I was very surprised to find your statement: "On the basis of historical facts the Jats are reported to be present in India from 3102 BC." You give Dr Natthan Singh's book: Jat - Itihas (Hindi), as a reference for this. I have been studying Indian history for more than 25 years and I have never come across any historical information which can be accurately dated earlier than about the middle of the first millenium BCE. If Dr. Natthan Singh's claims can be verified, this would indeed be a landmark in the study of Indian history. Perhaps you would be kind enough to outline the evidence for this very early and remarkably precise dating? Thank you. John Hill 23:14, 2 November 2006 (UTC)


Year 3102 BC
Hi John Hill, There are two references cited above with 3102 BC. One is Dr Natthan Singh who is a reputed author of 'History of Jats'. Another reference is that of CV Vaidya who is an authority on Indian history. After your note above I tried to find more references. I found in Sister Nivedita book on Myths of The Hindus and Buddhists[13] in which she has given calculations about Hindu cosmology. She has mentioned that commencement of Kali yuga coincides with the day of the death of Krishna. This way this year coincides with death of Krishna. We have this on wikipedia as well. This year is mentioned on its link page of 3102 BC that:

3102 BC – Astrological evidence places this date to be the death of Krishna at the age of 125
3102 BC — Year 0 of the Kali Yuga begins
Regards, burdak 15:36, 3 November 2006 (UTC)


More on 3102 BC
Dear Shri Burdak, What you are saying, I gather, is that according to Hindu cosmology certain events took place in 3102 BC. While this may be accepted as fact by some Hindus, this sort of calculation is usually not accepted by people of other faiths as "historical fact." Many religious traditions have made calculations of this sort based on their scriptures and traditions. For example, the Anglican Archbishop James Ussher calculated on the basis of comparing information in the Christian scriptures with established historical dates that the world was created in 4004 BC. Nowadays most Christians, including most Anglicans (not to mention people of other faiths), no longer accept this date as worthy of serious consideration. It would be better in a general encyclopedia such as this, I suggest, to present such information in terms as such "calculations based on Hindu cosmology or tradition." Cheers, John Hill 22:27, 3 November 2006 (UTC)


Jat in Mahavamsa
Dear John Hill, Thanks for the suggestions. There is a need to find some solid historical fact. That is why I put it for discussion. I found that you have done a good work in Buddhist literature. Most of the Jats had adopted Buddhism when it was at peak. There is a need to research the Buddhist literature about origin and history of Jats. Mahavansha, provides a continuous historical record of over two millennia. At one point I find a comment about Chandragupta Maurya as under-

"Mahavamsa describes Chandragupta as coming of Kshatriya clan of Maurya: Mauryanam Khattyanam vamsha jata. (Geiger Trans p 27)."

The meaning of this shloka in sanskrit is that Mauryas are Jat of kshatriya clan. Can you suggest further approach about this and links which provide material on Jats in Buddhist literature or traditions. burdak 04:03, 4 November 2006 (UTC)


More on Jat in Mahavamsa
Dear Shree Burdak: Thank you very much for your last note which is, indeed, of great interest and importance as it seems to firmly establish that the Mauryas were of Jat lineage.

Unfortunately, I do not have a copy of the Mahavamsa available other than the on-line in the two internet links given in the Wikipedia article on the Mahavamsa. I haven't been able to find the passage you mention in either of these on-line versions of the Geiger translation but, perhaps, they are not complete or the English translation is faulty. I would be very grateful if you could send me the full quote and reference and any other details you can find. I will search for other references to Jats in my books and notes as soon as I can. I will search for more references to jats in my books and references as soon as I can. Many thanks, John Hill 23:40, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Retrieved from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Jat

ravichaudhary
November 14th, 2006, 12:44 AM
One of the problems you are dealing with is many scholars, wear blinkers, and therefore have tunnel vision, able to see only what is directly in front of them.

This is a very narrow minded view.

John Hill, who is a fairly decent sort of person, however ,also has this problem.

His achievement, is, that despite being an English speaker, he learnt some Chinese and translated a manuscript, a 5th century story, which is called a history.

Now that deed is quite an achievement, and needs all praise

The problem becomes, that he like many other such scholars, are not then able to interpret what they have translated, and he simply sees that area, ( Central Asia) as a " Silk Road", and a "Chinese- European "connection.

Their vision is of local people being barbaric nomads, running around the steppes drinking sheep milk.

They are ignorant of and ignore any connection to the older pre Islamic and pre Buddhist Vedic culture the prevailed in these areas since the times of the Sarasvati Sindhu (Indus Valley) Culture, of 3000 BCE to 2000 BCE when the Sarasvati river dried up.

Now this area history goes back to 3,000 BCE and it was highly developed area, with a well developed civilization, a well developed economy, supported by an extensive network of irrigation canals, that would put many modern countries engineering skills to shame.

This is the kind of economy is what produces and did produce the economic surplus that allowed a surpllus of labour, which would allow the scientific discoveries and the philosophical works like the Atharva Ved to be created.

Countless references are there to the Jats, Jateh, Getae, MassaGetae,( greek Literature), Jutia, Gutia( yuehchi in Chinese).

Why are these evidences ignored?

Colonial scholars, pooh pooh everything that does not suit their blinkered view,and the only way these ' scholars' pass off their opinions, as history, and get away with it, is because so far they controlled the chanels of distribution of the information.

The Indian Historians and the Jat Historians are not ignorant of this period. Their historical traditions, and literature are replete with data.- the Mahabharat, and the Vedic literature contains much material with reference to this area and time period.

Recent researches, contrary to John Hill's assertion, show that the Kushans were Jats, and ' Kushan', meaning ' crown' was simply a title or clan name variants of which are still found in the Jats of today.


Rather than John Hill asking the Jats to prove that Kaniska was a Jat, perhaps John Hill should be asked prove to us that he was not a Jat, and if not who was he?.


Ravi Chaudhary

ravichaudhary
November 14th, 2006, 12:53 AM
I have asked John Hill to provide what evidence he has to show that Kaniska was not a Jat

Ravi Chaudhary







http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Kanishka#Concern_about_the_so-called_.22Clan_of_Kanishka.22

lrburdak
November 14th, 2006, 08:21 AM
Thanks Raviji for asking evidences from John Hill on Kanishka's clan. We need some more evidences. I have further added a note to that discussion as under -

Hi John Hill, After your note to verify sources about the clan of Kanishka I further searched books with me and put more references at appropriate places in the article on clan of Kanishka's section. All references lead to the same fact that Kanishka was Kaswan Jat and it can not be anything else. Apart from literature and inscriptions the biggest evidence is that Kaswan clan is in Jats as on today in Rajasthan. Majoritry of them are in Churu district in Rajasthan. So as I am from that area and have first hand information about them. If there is any evidence otherwise, as Ravi Chaudhary has said, it may be placed for discussion.

About the origin of Kushans I take from Wikipedia article on Kushan which is as under -

"Chinese sources describe the Guishuang (Ch: 貴霜), i.e. the "Kushans", as one of the five aristocratic tribes of the Yuezhi (Ch: 月氏), a loose confederation of Indo-European peoples. The Yuezhi are also generally considered as the easternmost speakers of Indo-European languages, who had been living in the arid grasslands of eastern Central Asia, in modern-day Xinjiang and Gansu, possibly speaking versions of the Tocharian language, until they were driven west by the Xiongnu in 176–160 BCE. The five tribes constituting the Yuezhi are known in Chinese history as Xiūmì (Ch: 休密), Guishuang (Ch: 貴霜), Shuangmi (Ch: 雙靡), Xidun (Ch: 肸頓), and Dūmì (Ch: 都密).
The Yuezhi reached the Hellenic kingdom of Greco-Bactria, in the Bactrian territory (northernmost Afghanistan and Uzbekistan) around 135 BCE, and displaced the Greek dynasties there, who resettled in Indus basin (in present day Pakistan) in the western part of the Indo-Greek Kingdom.
In the following century, the Guishuang (Ch: 貴霜) gained prominence over the other Yuezhi tribes, and welded them into a tight confederation under yabgu (Commander) Kujula Kadphises. The name Guishuang was adopted in the West and modified into Kushan to designate the confederation, although the Chinese continued to call them Yuezhi."

According to Thakur Deshraj the Shivi gotra Jats of Shivaliks and lower reaches of Lake Manasarowar left this area after the war of Mahabharata and migrated to Uttar Kuru. Some of them settled in Punjab in the area known as 'Yadu ki Dung', some settled in Kashmir and the rest moved far north up to Siberia. [1]

The Krishna vanshi people in Sanskrit were called 'Karshney' and 'Karshniya'. Karshniya or Kasaniya is a gotra of Jats found in Rajasthan. These Krishna vanshi people in China were known as Kushan or Yuezhi.[2]

Bhim Singh Dahiya has established that Kushan or Yuezhi were Jats. There were two branches of Yuezhi people. One of the branches was called 'Ta-Yuezhi' which means 'The great Jats'. The other branch was 'Siao-Yuezhi' which means 'The little Jats'. The Greek historian Herodotus has written Massagetae for Ta-Yuezhi and Thyssagetae for Siao-Yuezhi. The Yuezhi people inhabited the Outer Mongolia and Gansu province of China.[3][4] burdak 03:35, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

1.^ Thakur Deshraj: Jat Itihas (Hindi), Maharaja Suraj Mal Smarak Shiksha Sansthan, Delhi, 1934
2.^ Thakur Deshraj: Jat Itihas (Hindi), Maharaja Suraj Mal Smarak Shiksha Sansthan, Delhi, 1934
3.^ Bhim Singh Dahiya: Aryan Tribes and the Rig Veda, Dahinam Publishers, Haryana, India,1991
4.^ Bhim Singh Dahiya: Jats the Ancient Rulers, Dahinam Publishers

Retrieved from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Kanishka

ravichaudhary
November 15th, 2006, 12:48 AM
Yuehzhi or yueh chi is simply the english transliteration of the Chinese script.

The phoentic sound is ' Jutia'.( of the Juts)

The correct terminology to use is the Jutia or Gutia.( the G being pronounced as in "George")

To Western scholars, this is simply ' nomenclature' and they do not pay any attention to this detail , but it causes a lot of distortation.

Burdakji and others, I suggest you use the term "Jutia ( chinese -Yueh Chi)".

This may be a little cumbersome in the begining, but it will get the correct terminology across.

and using correct terminology is important.

Ravi Chaudhary

smeker
November 15th, 2006, 10:35 PM
But what if all this is a name coincidence?
totaly different people whit similar names .for exemple lets take 2 diferent people.Armenians and aromanians- in their language even armanians-(a small people from Greece and Macedonia).Their names are similar but they are not from the same root.
The name armenian came from har mannii ,hight places,while aromanians came from the name of city of Rome(post-latin rotacism).
So,is posible that similar names as goths,yutes,jats etc, to be from totaly diferent origins? In thousand of words,name coincidence can be a problem.
Is an african tribe call massai,which is similar whit massa getae,but i bet that is no conection betwin these 2 people.May be is not a good exemple but is the only one that came in my mind now.

narenderkharb
November 15th, 2006, 10:50 PM
But what if all this is a name coincidence?
totaly different people whit similar names .for exemple lets take 2 diferent people.Armenians and aromanians- in their language even armanians-(a small people from Greece and Macedonia).Their names are similar but they are not from the same root.
The name armenian came from har mannii ,hight places,while aromanians came from the name of city of Rome(post-latin rotacism).
So,is posible that similar names as goths,yutes,jats etc, to be from totaly diferent origins? In thousand of words,name coincidence can be a problem.
Is an african tribe call massai,which is similar whit massa getae,but i bet that is no conection betwin these 2 people.May be is not a good exemple but is the only one that came in my mind now.

You have a point there.

But yehzhi are also known as tusharas in Indian literature and we find tushara group in Tomar jats and not in any other cast.

But again we find problem relating yehzhi to jats as ..

Yehzhi and Kaniska are said to be tartars not jats..

If we take little yehzhi they are said to have a tradition still prevalent in gujjars of himachal and jammu kashmir of moving cattle up and down the hills with the change of seasons living half year at one place and other half at other place.

smeker
November 15th, 2006, 11:03 PM
Is dificult as historians back then,name diferent people whit the same name or same people whit diferent names.
Not to mention fake histories.Like mughals praise them selfs to be mongols even they was more turkish then mongols.

narenderkharb
November 15th, 2006, 11:11 PM
When we say that jats are considered Indo Aryan or Indo Sythian what we mean by two terms...

As Aryan is not a race and has Irani majority non jat population (genetics) priest non jat class plus possibly jats than it leads we are reffering to religion again their we are not entirly vedic had shiva and other faiths.

When we speak indo sythian than we know sythian had different components many of which were not at all jats again sythian language resemble ossetic languages what about indus area parakrit than.

And sythian may be aryan or aryan may be sythian ..

narenderkharb
November 15th, 2006, 11:17 PM
When test reports of the skulls of Indus valley sent to England and later published by Archeological survey OF India confirms only two races Jats and Chamars and churrae than what else proof do we need to prove our existence in 3000 BC here.

Note...no other group other than JATS in higher class was mentioned as the inhabitants of this civilization in british report submitted to ASI.

ravichaudhary
November 16th, 2006, 12:21 AM
When test reports of the skulls of Indus valley sent to England and later published by Archeological survey OF India confirms only two races Jats and Chamars and churrae than what else proof do we need to prove our existence in 3000 BC here.


Note...no other group other than JATS in higher class was mentioned as the inhabitants of this civilization in british report submitted to ASI.

Narendra

Do you have the exact reference and quote?

If so, could you please scan and post it?

Ravi Chaudhary

narenderkharb
November 16th, 2006, 07:54 AM
This information was provided by a Pakistani historian and is present on internet in pdf files .I will try to find the link..

According to refernce britishers sent the skulls of Indus valley people to england to varify the people who were its inhabitants and scientists after studying reported those skulls of Jats and SCs.

This REPORT was sent in NEHRU times to India and reported in ASI but not quoted by Indian fellows, why cannot unserstand.

Bruhie and than suggestion of southIndian is one of the funniest theories which we see today by a selcted group.

smeker
November 16th, 2006, 11:41 AM
Narendra

Do you have the exact reference and quote?

If so, could you please scan and post it?

Ravi Chaudhary
The examination of 300 skeletons from the Indus Valley Civilization and comparison of those skeletons with modern-day Indians by Kenneth Kennedy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Kennedy) has also been a supporting argument for the OIT. Kennedy claims that the Harappan inhabitants of the Indus Valley Civilization are no different from the inhabitants of India in the following millennia.<SUP class=reference id=_ref-17>[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out_of_India_theory#_note-17)</SUP> However, this does not rule out one version of the Aryan Migration Hypothesis which suggests that the only "migration" was one of languages as opposed to a complete displacement of the indigenous population

narenderkharb
November 16th, 2006, 01:26 PM
The examination of 300 skeletons from the Indus Valley Civilization and comparison of those skeletons with modern-day Indians by Kenneth Kennedy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Kennedy) has also been a supporting argument for the OIT. Kennedy claims that the Harappan inhabitants of the Indus Valley Civilization are no different from the inhabitants of India in the following millennia.<SUP class=reference id=_ref-17>[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out_of_India_theory#_note-17)</SUP> However, this does not rule out one version of the Aryan Migration Hypothesis which suggests that the only "migration" was one of languages as opposed to a complete displacement of the indigenous population

This is exactly what I have researched and arrived at going through data on jats.

There is no race called ARYA and no people called ARYAN .This term Aryan is like term Christian you study and assimilate vedic literature in your culture and you will say yourslf Aryan .Similarly we have muslim, hindus etc which though follow certain common rituals are made of different ethnic groups.

Vedas didn't make any bone about arya vaizo and original home of people who practised vedic religion as nowhere near India .When some religion spreads people starts relating them to the historical figures of fables of those texts.

This is the single Reason that has destroyed Indian HISTORY AND PAST and the most sufferers are JATS IN TERMS OF HISTORY.

as we trace all our history to astadyayi ,Iskshvaku ,Yayati, Manu persons that may have never lived in our areas and came to land of Jats themselves.

And in contrast to this see we have no aryan invasion proof live here from the day one according to scientific proofs have same material culture in terms jewelery as in RAJASTHAN .We just adopted some vedic influence as burning of dead and similarly vedic priests accepted superiority of native gods as Shiva over indra mitra who were main gods earlier in vedas.We have same bullock carts buffalows and other gods like SHIVA as harppan people had but due to vedas we try to find in which sukta of rigvedas we have our mention .

But alas all our efforts have little results.

I ask why this wasteful excercise ?Are vedas indegenious to this country at the very first place ?
I can expect some priests who later merged in Indian Society to feel urge to relate them in this way but chanting vedic mantras by jat historian looks surprising.

If we want to define JATS than according to me ..

They are simply Central asian Jat Race (neither sythian nor aryan,and our indian area is part of that cenral asia see wiki))who gave birth to many other groups.

Some jats who lived here from Harappa times some moved out some moved in as this population shift continued over this area over the years , however not to any large extent.

narenderkharb
November 16th, 2006, 01:42 PM
Dear all please study the analysis results of KENNETH KENNDY AND TRY TO UNDERSTAND WHAT IT MEAN...

It says not Jats but SANSKRIT and its vedas as a religion came from outside to land of JATS.

Where we have all proofs supporting people living in our areas as the original inhabitants of Harppa civilization ..

We have all proofs supporting sanskrit as outside language a later day arrival in INDIA and recording its present thousand year earlier in different areas.

narenderkharb
November 16th, 2006, 01:53 PM
When there is any discussion regarding AIT

right winger try to fight on the basis as people of those times and today are same that is largely true.

And other group fight on basis that sanskrit is not native ...Which is also true..

And the fight continues ...continue ...continue..

I realsied this so put the real picture in the very begining itself that Jats were in fact the inhabitants of HARPPAN Civilization and Sanskrit and vedas came later.

No body from any group has so far advanced any argument that might negate this fact.

smeker
November 16th, 2006, 06:28 PM
We can partitionate Eurasia in 4 big areas, Europe,Middle east,India,China . We see relative big movement inside each of these areas ,but very low migrations betwin these areas(exept modern times).Very few migrate from China in Europe,or from Middle east(irano-semitic area) to China.The same must be true for India.Historial fail until now to proove that any masive invasion from outside occur in India.
Whit all invazions from mongoloid ASia in Europe we see extremly few mongoloids in Europe.Even populations who speak mongoloid language like hungarians look in majority as any european.
We observ a big migration in Europe of neolithic people,but they came from near by Turkey.Even whit their superior capacity to sustain more children then hunters ,still they barely form 20% of Europe population.
Even more ,Turkey is a very good habitat for people ,while area west to India is more like desert and sttepe ,not good for a big human population.So i doubt that any massive migration came in INdia ven from near by Iran.

smeker
November 16th, 2006, 06:57 PM
About schytians is belive that they form in 3000BC in North of Uiguristan,next to Mongolia.An least this is what arheology show.From there they migrate In Central Asia stepe and replace the cimmerians in north of Black Sea in 700BC.
Imagine that schytians and other stepe people was not numerous in number(how many people can live in a dry stepe?).If we take such big country as Kazahstan it has only 15 milion people,which half are new comers russians,not native.This is the explication(this and the nomadic stile) of why schytians replace cimmerians,sarmatian replace schitians,turko-mongols replace finaly this caucasias 1600 years ago.
In 600 BC the name getae(and related names) apear in Europe for the first time.Some how ,is posible to be related whit the schytian invasion replacing the cimmerians.

smeker
November 16th, 2006, 07:37 PM
Are jats sakas who came in India in 200bc? Lets not confuse a small number of invaders(may be less then 100 thousands) whit 8-10 milions of west India inhabitants(India has by then 70-80 milion people).Imagine how many people sakas must to kill in order to replace the natives.The most dangerous people for farmers are not the nomads from stepe but other farmers.Sakas didnt replace anybody .
Are jats aryans? no major invasion is recorded at that time.Arheology find nothing as an invasion.Arheologists today can find a group of hunters from paleolithic but they cant find evidence for a major invasion only 3000 years ago ? What was the population of INdia in 1500BC? 15 milions.Harrapans number was an least 2 milions in 2500 bc(while Sumer have 0,5 mil ,and Egipt 1 million in the same time).
If stepe people didnt replace not a single ethnic group in Europe,not even the people from the edge of the stepe,how could they replace any people from India which have twice the human density as Europe.?

The mistery is not from were the jats came from but from were the name jat originate.

sktewatia
November 16th, 2006, 07:49 PM
The examination of 300 skeletons from the Indus Valley Civilization and comparison of those skeletons with modern-day Indians by Kenneth Kennedy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Kennedy) has also been a supporting argument for the OIT. Kennedy claims that the Harappan inhabitants of the Indus Valley Civilization are no different from the inhabitants of India in the following millennia.<SUP class=reference id=_ref-17>[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out_of_India_theory#_note-17)</SUP> However, this does not rule out one version of the Aryan Migration Hypothesis which suggests that the only "migration" was one of languages as opposed to a complete displacement of the indigenous population

Soka, I'd like you to concentrate on Assur part of Jat. There are so many gots like Jatasra itself who write Asra only. Asra here means Assur. Morasur and Narasur are known to have faught with Krishna. There was one Bakasur also who was killed by Bhima. The present Assyria/syria is named after assur. Its ancient history calls its capital as "Ninenveh" means ninety nine in English "99" the greatest binary number.

Soka, today all computers n all modern technology is based on these two binary numbers zero and one. yes or no.

I really wonder sometimes, how our ancestor knew that much so as to name syria's capital as "ninenveh"?

smeker
November 16th, 2006, 07:49 PM
Narender ,Shiva is a real indo-european god.Is found at any indo-european people be it celts,thracians,schytians,not whit the same name of course.
Why Shiva isnt consider by some as an IE god? because is belive that proto-Shiva(pashpati) is a fertility god and aryans as a nomadic people didnt need a fertility god. But reconstruction of proto-IE pantheon show that fertility god and goddess was among the principal gods of proto-IE.
Shiva is similar whit germanic Odin and celtic Lug,not to mention slavic Veles or dacian Zalmoxis.An arhetipe of the cultural hero.

smeker
November 16th, 2006, 08:01 PM
Soka, I'd like you to concentrate on Assur part of Jat. There are so many gots like Jatasra itself who write Asra only. Asra here means Assur. Morasur and Narasur are known to have faught with Krishna. There was one Bakasur also who was killed by Bhima. The present Assyria/syria is named after assur. Its ancient history calls its capital as "Ninenveh" means ninety nine in English "99" the greatest binary number.

Soka, today all computers n all modern technology is based on these two binary numbers zero and one. yes or no.

I really wonder sometimes, how our ancestor knew that much so as to name syria's capital as "ninenveh"?
We say Niniveh ,but it was spell Ninua.Doesnt sound like 99.Ashur was one of the son of Shem the legend says.
Binary code,yes,but soon will be computers which use fractions not binary codes:D

smeker
November 16th, 2006, 08:24 PM
As the name jat is conected somehow whit schytians and gutians,both people came from the same himalayan area,must be original from west Himalaya area.

smeker
November 16th, 2006, 08:35 PM
Narender ,i cant send you more messages as you have full folder ,100 messages:)

narenderkharb
November 16th, 2006, 08:38 PM
Narender ,Shiva is a real indo-european god.Is found at any indo-european people be it celts,thracians,schytians,not whit the same name of course.
Why Shiva isnt consider by some as an IE god? because is belive that proto-Shiva(pashpati) is a fertility god and aryans as a nomadic people didnt need a fertility god. But reconstruction of proto-IE pantheon show that fertility God and goddess was among the principal gods of proto-IE.
Shiva is similar whit germanic Odin and celtic Lug,not to mention slavic Veles or dacian Zalmoxis.An arhetipe of the cultural hero.

Soko You are right in your observation .

As I read the sythian language and artifacts by Rizcovich(check spelling) I found a similar god like pashupati same horns same snake and a script like Indus valley script same figure was there in Ziroft civilzation .you find same culture in Xinjiang and nortern bacteria (early phase)and all areas are related with jats inhabitance.I found Zalmoxis lord of Romanian jats and shiva lord of Indus valley Jats.To summarise we have lord shiva as god of IE Jats originally, later on adjusted in remixed religion.

Now finding same culture and people with similar genetics(variation do occur over years ) and people calling them Jats from Dachia to Transoxania and India make me feel Jat is the most ancient race of people that spread over this area and had inter regional movements not to a massive scale though.

narenderkharb
November 16th, 2006, 08:56 PM
But we do found the movement of people over great distances and Jats were no exceptions.

We find Bala Jats moving from Turan to India in and settling in wide area as far as malwa.

We find mengals moving from baluchistan to chinese turkistan.

We find recentaly makrani JATS MOVING FROM halft area of Iran to gujarat KACHH area only 500 years ago.

Belochi along with bruhie moving to belochistan from iran.

And Bruhies moving from central India to bangla desh iran turkmanistan and belochistan areas .

Well migration do occur but as a small % of total population which hardly can change a population pattern drastically.

smeker
November 16th, 2006, 09:14 PM
Soko You are right in your observation .

As I read the sythian language and artifacts by Rizcovich(check spelling) I found a similar god like pashupati same horns same snake and a script like Indus valley script same figure was there in Ziroft civilzation .you find same culture in Xinjiang and nortern bacteria (early phase)and all areas are related with jats inhabitance.I found Zalmoxis lord of Romanian jats and shiva lord of Indus valley Jats.To summarise we have lord shiva as god of IE Jats originally, later on adjusted in remixed religion.

Now finding same culture and people with similar genetics(variation do occur over years ) and people calling them Jats from Dachia to Transoxania and India make me feel Jat is the most ancient race of people that spread over this area and had inter regional movements not to a massive scale though.
Now you wrong ,germans or romanians are not jats. Only 5% of them .No more then that.And Shiva wasnt the only god of jats.but among the first 3 more important.

smeker
November 16th, 2006, 09:22 PM
This area you mention have the comon gene R1a .Which is there from 10000 years old in that region.

narenderkharb
November 16th, 2006, 10:36 PM
Now you wrong ,germans or romanians are not jats. Only 5% of them .No more then that.And Shiva wasnt the only god of jats.but among the first 3 more important.

I don't remember wether I said german as Jats though I do feel that germani may be a jat tribe of germans and mann heyer bullar schillar may have been the same clans as found in Indian Jats however this I didn't post here.

About Anatolia I don't say all are Jats I simply say that jats have a God similar to lord Shiva in discription.

I think you got me wrong.

narenderkharb
November 16th, 2006, 10:47 PM
This area you mention have the comon gene R1a .Which is there from 10000 years old in that region.

Over the years there is a clear cut pattern of genetic movement given by opperhmier.
But this is a digression as we wanted to know what can we BE reffered Indo sythian Indo aryans ,I feel we can be called as IE Jats rather than these two terms that won't do justice to definition of Jats for the reasons sited earlier.

smeker
November 16th, 2006, 11:09 PM
As for me ,the evidence sugest that place of jat origin is near Himalaya so i must consider my self defeated in my early theory(jats having black sea origin).If jats came in Europe in 600BC they can be only a minority in Europe as i say earlier.
I belive that this german tribes whit jat names was a ruling elite of the german population.I explaind earlier why im not confuse the name of a nation whit the nation it self.For exemple only one of the 7 chinese states have the name Qin.But this name expanded to all population.The other 6 states renunce to their original names and adopted the Qin name.

smeker
November 16th, 2006, 11:12 PM
Because name jat is older then the name schytian we better say that jats are IE people or aryan if you like.We can trace the name jat to the name guti which exist before the schytians whit 1000 years.

smeker
November 16th, 2006, 11:16 PM
I don't remember wether I said german as Jats though I do feel that germani may be a jat tribe of germans and mann heyer bullar schillar may have been the same clans as found in Indian Jats however this I didn't post here.

About Anatolia I don't say all are Jats I simply say that jats have a God similar to lord Shiva in discription.

I think you got me wrong.
Yes,posibly i get you wrong .jats are in anatolia too ,more difuse in population or more concentrate in some regions.

narenderkharb
November 16th, 2006, 11:35 PM
I propose Simply IE Jats .

Not Aryan as the term does not represent any race and a later term than Jat.

As, had Jat been a later term to Aryan than we could have Jats only in indian area.

I think you are reffering to genetic studies when you trace origin to Western Himalayas but here the spread to west is much earlier than 1000 bc.

I read Iranian story of sahnama here the parthian king has three sons one rule parthia and iran second rule turan and India and third goes to anatolia ,some relate them to azats well thinking area of inhabitance may be a jat story.

smeker
November 17th, 2006, 06:02 AM
i refer not only to the genetic study,but the name story. is someting older then 1000bc.I had refer to 3000BC,1000years earlier then schytians and not at the year 1000BC.
The story you mention,must refer to Parthia(300 BC-220Ad).Parthian empire was spread from Anatolia to Pakistan.So the story must be real.Is also a letter in Iran museum ,send by king Decebal to king Pacorus in which he name Pacorus cousin,so they are relatives.I know only that parthians wear the so call massa getae-sarmatian clothes.This white clothes seem to be be very succesful as they are spread on so vast area even in France replacing the celtic clothes .

vinodks
November 17th, 2006, 09:51 PM
Some people might have claimed this but many more people associated Jat with Indo-Aryans and Indo-Schythian than with indigeous Indus valley people. Sikh Jats specifically take pride in associating with Europian tribes where Bharatpur Jat take pride associating with Yadavas, now people started taking pride by associating with Indus valley people. Looks like main thing is "taking pride" not the quest for truth. The fact that some elements of Indus valley culture are still pervalent doesnt imply that Jats are purely Indus valley people. There has been lots of intermixing.

Colonial scholars had passion of classifying people in classes, races, groups. I could see in tribe and castes survey books (in liberary in the campus) that different races of people are classified with different size, shape of head and noses. One guy even gave a fomulae that mean width of nose relates to the caste he belongs. Lets be careful in relying too much on anthopometry data when people have access to better technologies today.

By the way it will be helpful to see Imperial Gatetteer of British to see how the process of writing history and culture of India conducted...

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/reference/gazetteer/

-vinod




Note...no other group other than JATS in higher class was mentioned as the inhabitants of this civilization in british report submitted to ASI.

narenderkharb
November 17th, 2006, 10:37 PM
Some people might have claimed this but many more people associated Jat with Indo-Aryans and Indo-Schythian than with indigeous Indus valley people. Sikh Jats specifically take pride in associating with Europian tribes where Bharatpur Jat take pride associating with Yadavas, now people started taking pride by associating with Indus valley people. Looks like main thing is "taking pride" not the quest for truth. The fact that some elements of Indus valley culture are still pervalent doesnt imply that Jats are purely Indus valley people. There has been lots of intermixing.

Colonial scholars had passion of classifying people in classes, races, groups. I could see in tribe and castes survey books (in liberary in the campus) that different races of people are classified with different size, shape of head and noses. One guy even gave a fomulae that mean width of nose relates to the caste he belongs. Lets be careful in relying too much on anthopometry data when people have access to better technologies today.

By the way it will be helpful to see Imperial Gatetteer of British to see how the process of writing history and culture of India conducted...

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/reference/gazetteer/

-vinod

Hopeless .....
Same old style of commenting without reading any argument for or against

Before starting any allegation you should first read argument than deny ,if it is not valid .

I still remember some of your earlier stands and emphatic denials than reading some book and making 180 degree or 90 degree turn whatever that was.

narenderkharb
November 17th, 2006, 10:39 PM
We are open to your suggestions and criticism as we all want truth but that at least should have some argument or base.

sktewatia
November 17th, 2006, 10:54 PM
My simple question to you is like Joon: who lived in this area where present Jats are living?

If you say Indus Valley people. Then again where had they come from and where have they gone now? And also where, when and at what time Aryan Invasion took place? If at all it did then where had gone those people, so called Aryans?

Jadunath Sircar says that among all the people of Indian Subcontinent, Jat has the best claim of Vedic Aryan descent.

sktewatia
November 17th, 2006, 11:28 PM
No Jat (means caste), race and people of the world could establish its hold for such a long time, in such a wide spread fertile/best area of the world, as Jat (it means Jat, Jutt, got etc.) did.

Aur phir is Jat jati ke chidiyaghar me duniyan ki tamamm ruling dynasties(ke got) milte hain.

smeker
November 17th, 2006, 11:37 PM
Are you agree whit what wikipedia say abt jat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jat

ravichaudhary
November 18th, 2006, 01:25 AM
The article, is quite well researched.

In brief, it concludes, that the modern State of Haryana, constituted
the area of Kurukshetra since very ancient times and this area was
where the vedic culture evolved.

Migrations were away from this area, both east and West.

The Indus( Sindu) valley is not too far off. the Sarsvati also flowed through Kurukshetra

The areas of Gandhar etc are alos discussed

From a jat perspective, we may take note of clan names, like
Karaskara, Aratta, ( later Rat-hi)
etc


List members may be interested in reading the article below:

Vishal Agarwal, "Is There Vedic Evidence for the Indo-Aryan
Immigration to India?", Dialogue (Journal of Astha Bharati, New
Delhi), vol. 8, No. 1, July-September 2006, pp. 122-145.


http://www.omilosmeleton.gr/english/documents/VedicEvidenceforAMT.pdf

sktewatia
November 18th, 2006, 01:59 PM
One legend says that Jats are born from the daughters of Daksha Prajapati. He had three daughters: Diti, Aditi and Danu. Diti's sons were called Daityas or Assur, henece so many Assur gots are there in Jats like Jatasara (Jat Assur), Kadvasra (Kadv-Assur), Bains-assur/Bhainsassur (Sanskritised as Mahishassur of Indian Epics), Morasur, Narasur (of Mahabharta, Mor and Nahra Jats) etc. Aditi's sons were called Adityas/Devas can be compared with Vedic/post vedic Aryan stories, and present Deol got of Jats. Danu's sons were called Danavs modern Danes/scandinavians etc. They still are the tallest people of the world. Scandinavia also has been compared by many with skandh-nabh, meaning Sainikon ka Desh, the soldiers country.

These three are seen often at war with one another, in Indian epics, particularly Dev and Assurs (Adityas and Daityas), yet pauranic stories from time to time keep reminding that Dev and assurs though are enemies but originally are from same stock.

Kephart Kelvin mentions that Getic people dating back to 7700 BC were the ancestors of the nordic branch of Aryans who inhabit modern Scandinavia etc. today.

Indo-Jats seem to be dominated by Devas because epics are soft towards them and bit harsh towards Assurs. Modern Syrian area seems to be dominated originally by Assurs and hence its name Assyria. Further north europe Jats were dominated by Danu's sons Danavs. This seems to be inference after all.

narenderkharb
November 19th, 2006, 11:56 AM
The article, is quite well researched.

In brief, it concludes, that the modern State of Haryana, constituted
the area of Kurukshetra since very ancient times and this area was
where the vedic culture evolved.

Migrations were away from this area, both east and West.

The Indus( Sindu) valley is not too far off. the Sarsvati also flowed through Kurukshetra

The areas of Gandhar etc are alos discussed

From a jat perspective, we may take note of clan names, like
Karaskara, Aratta, ( later Rat-hi)
etc


List members may be interested in reading the article below:

Vishal Agarwal, "Is There Vedic Evidence for the Indo-Aryan
Immigration to India?", Dialogue (Journal of Astha Bharati, New
Delhi), vol. 8, No. 1, July-September 2006, pp. 122-145.


http://www.omilosmeleton.gr/english/documents/VedicEvidenceforAMT.pdf
Ravi ji

This is a mere a mythical story about some ghandarv kanya urvashi termed apsara and indian pururava who learnt yagna and vedic dharma and than spread that in india all article is about his decendants one said they went from AFGHANISTAN to kuru lands and than kasi videhas ,other says that they went from punjab to kuru lands called kurukshetra not any city kurukshetra synonimous with it.

I wonder why we have this self degrading wish to join some groups who are very clear about us being not aryans..


Now please read article little seriously. and try to see what they have for JATS in their interpretation....


Quote ....

Much of ancient sanskrit and vedic literature consider people and region of central and western punjab as impure and outsiders ....

That is land of sapatasindhva or land of Jats than where were these vedic aryan Jats.

Article further makes it clear if some one is any doubt...

Quote..

BSD 49 first sutra 1.1.2.10 define Aryavarta or land arya west of Kalkvana (Allahbad) east of Adarsana point of sarswati diappers in to desert south of Himalayas and north of Vindayas ...

that is western Haryana total punjab sindh area of jat inhabitance has been excluded from possiblity of being aryans.

So can we be happy that gurgaon bhiwani atleast are included and may be aryan ...

Sorry further explanation makes it clear who are aryans in next sutra ...

1.1.2.11...

Aryavarta is region of ganga yamuna doab area....

So almost comlete area of JATLAND according to priests are inhabited by non aryans as that is advised as outside the Aryavarta,and Jats are non aryan according to these texts.

So who are Aryans Pandey ji mishra ji saxena tiwari etc...etc..

Stll we may be adament than we have to assume that after puruva and urvashi story we lived first in allahbad mainpuri jhansi kanpur and later come to haryana and punjab ..

LOOKS CONVINCING???????

And what article say about people of Jatland JATS OF Souvira =punjab, Sindh.malwa Rajastha etc...
These are mixed people and if any one visit these areas than one must take a bath...

Perphps Ravi ji missed it it is right in this article itself...


My suggestion was why are we having a wish to be included in a group of people who clearly say you are not among us.

It is a short of degrading ourselves by asking regonition from some one who wants to take a bath after visting your country.

narenderkharb
November 19th, 2006, 01:13 PM
I often write about the worst effect of this Vedic literature on the History of India and in particular about Jats which our own Jats fails to understand.

Now let me make it clear how...

This article is written by Vishal who people know represent one group that want vedic people to be identified as original indian and there by claimant to all heritage that belonged to India's original inhabitants as Jats.

Now if we take there version right than all problems arise in INDIAN history . HOWEVER IF WE ACCEPT THE TRUTH WHICH EVEN THESE VEDIC TEXTS SAY CLEARLY THAN HISTORY OF INDIA AND JATS IS VERY CLEAR LIKE A MIRROR.

Now if we take their version than problem comes ...

Why if people of kurukshetra were decendants of pururava and urvashi than how they become non aryan in next sutras..

Natural inference is there Kuru land is different...

Why people of souvira and sindu malwa are considered different because they followed a different religion unlike thier vedic.

Now if we take hindutava version as correct than from kuru to west punjab than to sindhu suvira we should see aryans but it is not than it means there route was diferent .
There may be two routes one to Ghandar Parsia and Arrata and other to ganga jamuna basin clearly avoiding punjab and sindhusauvira regions it could be possible if they lived simewhere in kashmir intially for some time before moving one branch to gangayamuna doab area by kuru land of hastinapur and other to ghandara and parsia and arrata and indus valley and jatland of punjab was not accesible to them or they were not perffered over Shiva worship of jats and so callled him God of Anaryas.

I can clearly prove lacunae in Vishal theory that is so evident like this Arrata nation being in punjab funny...but that will be a wate of time as they have prejudiced approach ..

Let me clear this guy that Arrata was clearly mentioned in different texts along with sumerian texts as, lord of arrata and E..

It is clearly defined as a country of mountains and valley where lipus lezuli,and silver(check spelling)is extracted and traded ...

Now where are these sources in punjab and where are those montains area is
properly identified with Jiroft area of iran and belochistan or helmund valley that fullfills these conditions and had later vedic influence...

Again most common natural reasoning is while describing movement in a particular direction we start with a place nearer and move away like towars east as kuru panchal ,kasi videha towards west ghandaras parsia arrata that make arrrata most wstern than arrata in punjab .
And again if they moved east to kuru so it meant were living west of kurukshetra than how can you fit all nations arrata ghndara souvira in almost the same regions.
I mean just for a mere wish of being related they want to make a mesh of interpretation and outsiders religion as of Sapthasindava region as impure now they also want to be called inhabitants of this area otherwise Jats may say that we were more advanced than your vedic rituals via Indus culture.

And if we don't fall for the lobbying of these Hindutava history destroyers history is very clear as .....

Vedic people came and settled in Ghandara region and uravashi was a ghndarv kanya that fall for native.

The original religion of India and its people is not vedic as till that episode they didnot know vedic rituals that are taught to him, ghandarvas who put this condition that if you learn this you will become one of us and can marry her,in short ask him for accepting that religion which he learnt via yagna.

Now arrival of vedic religion is very late as till than we find well developed kashi videhas identities that is very later period than ancient Indus valley civilzation..It is crystal clear.

Now after learning his decendants spread in eastern side via kuru hastinapur to ganga valley and on western side from afghanistan to parsia and kamran area that later witnesses zorastrian religion similar to vedic religion.

Indus valley Jats didn't acept this faith and are termed Anaryas or impure and others things.

all Jats historians know that sindhusouvira region is described as devoid of brahman priests who were sent later to this area may be during jaidarth or somebody else and is recorded as such in ancient sanskrit texts...

Now every scientific and literary evidence point out who we are but other group just want to claim if any was good in Indian heritage and leaving us in a confusion we have to see to such attempts and put our history ion proper contexts insead of being confused and fooled by them.

Just think if we accept their version(like aggrawal kalyanraman) than ...

Aryans vedics were architect of INDUS VALLEY PEOPLE

And Jats were not Aryan than it means....

We came from outside and conquered these regions from aryans people ...

But do you see any signh of invasion on aryan and replacement of native aryans .. .. a theory that even these hindutava gang fear to propose but mean the same.

But science says we are the people that lived here from the day one and all facts relate us to its civilzation ...

Let us not fall for a false auro created aropund vedas and aryan words and try to bring a true JAT history.

narenderkharb
November 19th, 2006, 01:20 PM
Ravi ji


Contrary to your suggestion I could not find any evidence in this article that Sarswati flowed through Haryana .

That karkasara and arrata were used for some people in fact they are the name of nations.

I also don't know some clan as Karkasara though there are karwasara Jats if you want to hint the some similarity of name but even than article does not relate them to either aryan or jats.

narenderkharb
November 19th, 2006, 04:07 PM
The story you mention,must refer to Parthia(300 BC-220Ad).Parthian empire was spread from Anatolia to Pakistan.So the story must be real.Is also a letter in Iran museum ,send by king Decebal to king Pacorus in which he name Pacorus cousin,so they are relatives.I know only that parthians wear the so call massa getae-sarmatian clothes.This white clothes seem to be be very succesful as they are spread on so vast area even in France replacing the celtic clothes .

True I Reffered to parthians known as parthiar or parthva by indian texts.

Though parthian is a nativity term their rulers and aristocracy called them zats like sorana who defeated romans.

Rustam of Sahnama is identified with surena or soren zat and your refernce regarding decebal has further validated the sahnama story of all being zats and sons of same father.

Rustam came to India also and married an indian princess.

Well if you see history after christ jat area of indus had always been a bone of contention and part of diferent empires indian turanian iranian etc in different periods.

narenderkharb
November 19th, 2006, 04:18 PM
Are you agree whit what wikipedia say abt jat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jat

Soko

History Of JATS is like a mega hit film with many film roles wrapped in alumnium covers but with no name of film or director on them.

Some were identified by Arabs (from seventh century onward)some by britishers ( role in serindia and makran) etc...

So ,authentically we are claiming them only.

For the rest(like Indus Valley ) fight is on.....:)

vinodks
November 20th, 2006, 07:34 AM
I had read this article before it was posted here. I agree with Narender that group represented by Vishal Aggarwal is not a group whose profession is not true history but propaganda.
Like Narender we should develop sound knowledge of Brahamanas, AB and BSS specifically, and understand the unbiased version of history. I dont know much about migration details in BSS but came across few instances in Sharma's "Republics of Ancient India" where it is claimed (with proper ref) that Videha(Videga) went to Mithila from Punjab following Himalaya foot hills, so did Kosala people. Lichhavi(Rskavi), Malla and Sakyas too were Aryan people from Punjab. Basically during Brahaman period monarchies had upper hand in Kuru Panchal land and freedom loving people went east to seek new frontiers(700-600BC). These people were named derogatrily in Manu's book and in Brahama literature. After some time people in Punjab itself established republic politics whose account is seen in Panini's and Greek historians' books. But these people are not mentioned to come anywhere else but punjab.

-vinod


Soko

History Of JATS is like a mega hit film with many film roles wrapped in alumnium covers but with no name of film or director on them.

Some were identified by Arabs (from seventh century onward)some by britishers ( role in serindia and makran) etc...

So ,authentically we are claiming them only.

For the rest(like Indus Valley ) fight is on.....:)

ravichaudhary
November 20th, 2006, 07:17 PM
I dont know much about migration details in BSS but came across few instances in Sharma's "Republics of Ancient India" where it is claimed (with proper ref) that Videha(Videga) went to Mithila from Punjab following Himalaya foot hills, so did Kosala people. Lichhavi(Rskavi), Malla and Sakyas too were Aryan people from Punjab. Basically during Brahaman period monarchies had upper hand in Kuru Panchal land and freedom loving people went east to seek new frontiers(700-600BC). These people were named derogatrily in Manu's book and in Brahama literature. After some time people in Punjab itself established republic politics whose account is seen in Panini's and Greek historians' books. But these people are not mentioned to come anywhere else but punjab.

-vinod

Sharma's book is a must read.

Though he himself is more sympathetic to the Invasionist cause, his book is well documented, and depicts society as largely republican.

Monarchial systems, have received more notice,in history, in part as more literature exists about them. That gets to be self feeding.

Ravi Chaudhary

vinodks
November 22nd, 2006, 11:47 PM
Narender,
You should bring these points up for discussion with Vishal Agarwal... You could compile this and post in IndiaArcheology yahoogroup, which includes him and many other scholars who need to know more about Jat culture before talking about continuity of Sarawati civilisation in Haryana and punjab region...

-vinod


Ravi ji

This is a mere a mythical story about some ghandarv kanya urvashi termed apsara and indian pururava who learnt yagna and vedic dharma and than spread that in india all article is about his decendants one said they went from AFGHANISTAN to kuru lands and than kasi videhas ,other says that they went from punjab to kuru lands called kurukshetra not any city kurukshetra synonimous with it.

I wonder why we have this self degrading wish to join some groups who are very clear about us being not aryans..


Now please read article little seriously. and try to see what they have for JATS in their interpretation....


Quote ....

Much of ancient sanskrit and vedic literature consider people and region of central and western punjab as impure and outsiders ....

That is land of sapatasindhva or land of Jats than where were these vedic aryan Jats.

Article further makes it clear if some one is any doubt...

Quote..

BSD 49 first sutra 1.1.2.10 define Aryavarta or land arya west of Kalkvana (Allahbad) east of Adarsana point of sarswati diappers in to desert south of Himalayas and north of Vindayas ...

that is western Haryana total punjab sindh area of jat inhabitance has been excluded from possiblity of being aryans.

So can we be happy that gurgaon bhiwani atleast are included and may be aryan ...

Sorry further explanation makes it clear who are aryans in next sutra ...

1.1.2.11...

Aryavarta is region of ganga yamuna doab area....

So almost comlete area of JATLAND according to priests are inhabited by non aryans as that is advised as outside the Aryavarta,and Jats are non aryan according to these texts.

So who are Aryans Pandey ji mishra ji saxena tiwari etc...etc..

Stll we may be adament than we have to assume that after puruva and urvashi story we lived first in allahbad mainpuri jhansi kanpur and later come to haryana and punjab ..

LOOKS CONVINCING???????

And what article say about people of Jatland JATS OF Souvira =punjab, Sindh.malwa Rajastha etc...
These are mixed people and if any one visit these areas than one must take a bath...

Perphps Ravi ji missed it it is right in this article itself...


My suggestion was why are we having a wish to be included in a group of people who clearly say you are not among us.

It is a short of degrading ourselves by asking regonition from some one who wants to take a bath after visting your country.

ravichaudhary
November 23rd, 2006, 12:43 AM
Ravi ji

This is a mere a mythical story about some ghandarv kanya urvashi termed apsara and indian pururava who learnt yagna and vedic dharma and than spread that in india all article is about his decendants one said they went from AFGHANISTAN to kuru lands and than kasi videhas ,other says that they went from punjab to kuru lands called kurukshetra not any city kurukshetra synonimous with it.

I wonder why we have this self degrading wish to join some groups who are very clear about us being not aryans..


Now please read article little seriously. and try to see what they have for JATS in their interpretation....


Quote ....

Much of ancient sanskrit and vedic literature consider people and region of central and western punjab as impure and outsiders ....

That is land of sapatasindhva or land of Jats than where were these vedic aryan Jats.

Article further makes it clear if some one is any doubt...

Quote..

BSD 49 first sutra 1.1.2.10 define Aryavarta or land arya west of Kalkvana (Allahbad) east of Adarsana point of sarswati diappers in to desert south of Himalayas and north of Vindayas ...

that is western Haryana total punjab sindh area of jat inhabitance has been excluded from possiblity of being aryans.

So can we be happy that gurgaon bhiwani atleast are included and may be aryan ...

Sorry further explanation makes it clear who are aryans in next sutra ...

1.1.2.11...

Aryavarta is region of ganga yamuna doab area....

So almost comlete area of JATLAND according to priests are inhabited by non aryans as that is advised as outside the Aryavarta,and Jats are non aryan according to these texts.

So who are Aryans Pandey ji mishra ji saxena tiwari etc...etc..

Stll we may be adament than we have to assume that after puruva and urvashi story we lived first in allahbad mainpuri jhansi kanpur and later come to haryana and punjab ..

LOOKS CONVINCING???????

And what article say about people of Jatland JATS OF Souvira =punjab, Sindh.malwa Rajastha etc...
These are mixed people and if any one visit these areas than one must take a bath...

Perphps Ravi ji missed it it is right in this article itself...


My suggestion was why are we having a wish to be included in a group of people who clearly say you are not among us.

It is a short of degrading ourselves by asking regonition from some one who wants to take a bath after visting your country.

Narendra

The whole point is that it is a mythical story.

Myths usually have a kernel ot truth.

Our task is to discover that kernel.

The article makes the main point about people going east or west, that gives an indication of what the text , composed along time ago then said.

Since that is the only evidence for migration, east or west, the translation becomes important, as does the issue of whether it was correctly recorded in the original text, or was the original text modified?

I have the same issue, as to translations of ancient texts, as to how they are translated ,and from whose perspective they are translated.

We do not have to accept , what was written, as the gospel truth, especially as opinions go.

Stay open

Best regards

Ravi.

vinodks
November 23rd, 2006, 11:26 AM
I agree with you, but it cover only the period 1500BC-500BC and discusses only north-east Indian republics... Do you know any book on north west Indian rebublic history?

-vinod


Sharma's book is a must read.

Though he himself is more sympathetic to the Invasionist cause, his book is well documented, and depicts society as largely republican.

Monarchial systems, have received more notice,in history, in part as more literature exists about them. That gets to be self feeding.

Ravi Chaudhary

arunshamli
November 23rd, 2006, 04:44 PM
just want to make sure that what we are quoting does really exist somewhere.
It is more than a month and no one has answered this question yet, So I am going to assume that "jat jhat sanghate" does not exist in Ashtadhayi.

ravichaudhary
November 23rd, 2006, 07:12 PM
I agree with you, but it cover only the period 1500BC-500BC and discusses only north-east Indian republics... Do you know any book on north west Indian rebublic history?

-Vinod

Sharma wrote this book circa 1950. He lived in the US and was married to a Jewish lady.

At that time it was generally accepted that the chronology was 1,500 BCE for the 'Aryan Invasion'

I use the term 'Aryan Invasion' consideredly, to indicate the thinking at time among Western Scholars. Sharma despite his Indian name would qualify as a Western Scholar. H, as his education, training was all western.

Over the last 20 years, the alternate theories of chronology have take hold, and one cannot simplistically accept the chronology generally accepted in the 50's.

Even among the Western Scholars, the chronology for the Migration etc has been getting pushed back steadily, and now they talk of 2,000 BCE as a standard marker.

His book, leaving the chronology aspect aside, is absolutely excellent (this for those who have not read it), for it brings out the fact the society was largely republican as one might expect, and there were some aspects of monarchialism, as we must also expect.

His book is based on the Vedic literature available to him. The dating of that literature and the events therein can be left aside, when studying his book.

The book is highly recommended.


Ravi Chaudhary

ravichaudhary
November 23rd, 2006, 07:16 PM
It is more than a month and no one has answered this question yet, So I am going to assume that "jat jhat sanghate" does not exist in Ashtadhayi.

Easy, Easy

One of our problems is the lack amongst us of members who know the ancient languages, Pali, Sanskrit, Brahmi, etc

The other is lack of access to the texts themsleves.

It would sort of nice if more jats would take up linguistics, Sanskrit etc, as part of their studies, and know English too, so that we could get some translations with a Jat perspective

Anyone know any such scholars?

Ravi Chaudhary

narenderkharb
November 23rd, 2006, 09:04 PM
Narender,
You should bring these points up for discussion with Vishal Agarwal... You could compile this and post in IndiaArcheology yahoogroup, which includes him and many other scholars who need to know more about Jat culture before talking about continuity of Sarawati civilisation in Haryana and punjab region...

-vinod

Before discussing with others I wanted to have a concensus among us who we are , on pure facts.

You can see for past some time I am trying my best to have openion of senior members Like Ravi ji and others regarding our relation with vedism but some how there is relcutance on part of worthy members.

Some time we don't want to say truth in order not to hurt feeling of our worthy seniors but..

One can really feel sorry if we quote we were in Astadhyayi but can'nt show to anybody if someone ask ,where ?

And quote some one article to prove that karkasara and arrata similar to rathi
proves we were Aryans but on finding article say opposite ,simply say we don't have to believe this.

Sorry to be blunt but this is no honesty in our quest for a true Jat past .

What is the use of such type of history if its only aim is ego satisfaction.

vinodks
November 24th, 2006, 08:00 AM
You are right in the sense that we need to make the basics strong before taking up these issues to the next level, which could be serious discussions with non-jat scholars and publications etc. There would never come a point when all of us agree on all the issues but we need not wait for that. Some people in Jatland are more experienced and some are just starting up(like me) and it may take time before all of us arrive at the stage where we can easily grasp the content of publications, like Vishal's, and promptly compare with original ref and detect fallacy. I can see this group contributing original material in few more year down the line.

I didn't understand most of the concerned paper so am not in position to contribute. But you should anyway raise these points since they are backed by ref. so concensus among ourselves is redundant, atleast in this context.

As per Astadhyayi, someone need to do deeper study before arriving at any conclusion. Its possible that the verse# in ref was not right. There is no doubt that Astadhayayi has important information about republics and I tried to get V S Agarwal's "India as known to Panini", this is not available anywhere online. Its in library of congress DC but I dont have account.

I think if we want to contribute more to what other Jat writers have done; first of all, we should read them and then, we should to read history written by nationalist writers, and then we can follow the thread to original sources and try to fit things.

-vinod


Before discussing with others I wanted to have a concensus among us who we are , on pure facts.

You can see for past some time I am trying my best to have openion of senior members Like Ravi ji and others regarding our relation with vedism but some how there is relcutance on part of worthy members.

Some time we don't want to say truth in order not to hurt feeling of our worthy seniors but..

One can really feel sorry if we quote we were in Astadhyayi but can'nt show to anybody if someone ask ,where ?

And quote some one article to prove that karkasara and arrata similar to rathi
proves we were Aryans but on finding article say opposite ,simply say we don't have to believe this.

Sorry to be blunt but this is no honesty in our quest for a true Jat past .

What is the use of such type of history if its only aim is ego satisfaction.

vinodks
November 24th, 2006, 08:52 AM
Ravi ji,
I agree that Sharma's book is probabily best treatment of republics of vedic and northeast India but it's not about republics of northwest India after 500BC(Jat tribes). It's generally said that writers like Jayaswal and Majumdar had been little liberal in glorifying ancient govt system becuase they were nationalist writers in time of India's new independence and there was subconscious attempt to prove that India is capable of governing itself. Something like -Democracy is not new, we knew it 2000 years back.
Sharma says that Altekar's "State and Govt in Ancient India" is better than these writers so I just ordered it. There is another book by Altekar.

A history of village communities in western India, (University of Bombay. Economic series, no. v) (Unknown Binding) by Anant Sadashiv Altekar
http://www.amazon.com/history-village-communities-University-Economic/dp/B00085DES2/sr=1-21/qid=1164341315/ref=sr_1_21/102-0232693-2947375?ie=UTF8&s=books

It would be really interesting to read history of village community in northwest india, it might have some missing links about Jat history. But I dont know how to get this book:-((.

-vinod


Sharma wrote this book circa 1950. He lived in the US and was married to a Jewish lady.

At that time it was generally accepted that the chronology was 1,500 BCE for the 'Aryan Invasion'

I use the term 'Aryan Invasion' consideredly, to indicate the thinking at time among Western Scholars. Sharma despite his Indian name would qualify as a Western Scholar. H, as his education, training was all western.

Over the last 20 years, the alternate theories of chronology have take hold, and one cannot simplistically accept the chronology generally accepted in the 50's.

Even among the Western Scholars, the chronology for the Migration etc has been getting pushed back steadily, and now they talk of 2,000 BCE as a standard marker.

His book, leaving the chronology aspect aside, is absolutely excellent (this for those who have not read it), for it brings out the fact the society was largely republican as one might expect, and there were some aspects of monarchialism, as we must also expect.

His book is based on the Vedic literature available to him. The dating of that literature and the events therein can be left aside, when studying his book.

The book is highly recommended.


Ravi Chaudhary

lrburdak
November 24th, 2006, 09:25 AM
Ravi ji


Contrary to your suggestion I could not find any evidence in this article that Sarswati flowed through Haryana .

That karkasara and arrata were used for some people in fact they are the name of nations.

I also don't know some clan as Karkasara though there are karwasara Jats if you want to hint the some similarity of name but even than article does not relate them to either aryan or jats.
*******************************
Hi Narenderji,

Banbhatta has mentioned about Saraswati in 'Harshacharita' he mentions that they took bath in Sarasvari river. Thanesar and Kurukshetra are in Haryana. The river originates from place very near to Thanesar. You can read 'Harshacharita' for that . It is in Jat history file section on Yahoo. The sarasvati river probably was in existence in 7th century. Here is a Map of Aryavrata you can see clearly Sarasvati river shown in it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Map_of_Vedic_India.png

If you study the dynasty of 'Yayati' which you can see on Jatland wiki here

http://www.jatland.com/home/Yayati

You will find that Yayati got two sons from Devyani – 1. Yadu and 2. Turvasu.

He also got three sons from Sharmishtha – 1. Druhyu 2. Anu and 3. Puru.

The descendants of Yadu are called Yadavvanshi in which was born Krishna, the founder of Jat sangha.

Ram Swarup Joon has given this ancestry in his book on Jat History, which is based on James Todd and Agni Purana. RS Joon mentions that nothing is known of Anu in Puranas. But when I was studying Sumerian Civilization we find lot about Anu. It means The five sons of Yayati can be considered to rule entire Aryavrata. In that situation we can not say there was a migration type of exodus at all. A jat satrap appointed went to that kingdom to rule with few of his trusted chieftains.

We can think on these lines and make a model about Aryan or Jat migration. My view is that Aryans have been coming and going at various times as the situations demanded. Aryavrata was their homeland. This theory is supported by many jat historians like Thakur Deshraj, Dr Natthan Singh etc.

We take present situation. For example Marwaris are doing business in entire world but they are from Haryana and Rajasthan. Situations arise, say naxalism in northwest, and they are forced to leave that place. They may leave that place for some time and go to Madras and Kolkata. On favourable conditions they again come to Assam. This type of situation prevailed at that time also.

Regards,

vinodks
November 24th, 2006, 10:17 AM
Hi,
Rhys Davids was first historian to talk about (1902) existence of republics in ancient India...
His famous book "Buddhist India" is ONLINE...

http://www.fsnow.com/text/buddhist-india/

-vinod

lrburdak
November 24th, 2006, 04:58 PM
Hi Vinodji, good search. I was reading this book Chapter-2 in which it gives the route of Aryan Migration as under -

It is supposed that the course of Aryan migration lay along the valleys of the Ganges and the Jumna. It cannot have been so simple. We must postulate at least two other lines of equal importance—one down the Indus, round the Gulf of Cutch, and so up to Avanti; and another along the foot of the mountains from Kashmir, by way of Kosala, to the Sākiya country, and so on through Tirhut to Magadha and Anga. There is a great deal more evidence available, both in literature and in the conclusions to be drawn from language, as to tribal migration in India than has yet been collected or analysed.

Mr. Grierson, for instance, has only just recently pointed out the important fact that, even now, the dialects of Rājasthān have a close resemblance to the dialects spoken along the Himalayas not only in Nepal but as far west, at least, as Chambā. This would tend to show that their ancestors must have been living close together when they began their wanderings to the east and the south respectively. Both started from the Northern Panjab, and probably neither migration followed the Ganges route.[Footnote: J.R.A.S., 1901, p. 808.]
Reference http://www.fsnow.com/text/buddhist-india/chapter2.htm
**********************
Note - I got a very important clue that there are number of things common between Rajasthan and Nepal. Common language and words. You find common names of places like Viratnagar, Sankhu etc. Common gotras also. There is a point of further research in this fact.

Regards,

vinodks
November 24th, 2006, 10:04 PM
Laxman ji,

For long time I had gut feeling that Nepali and Rajasthani dielect are somehow related. Even Sharma mentions that in his book. Major chunk of my family lives in Nepal and my aunts (two of my aunts from Narender's village) learned Nepali in few months after going there. Its sometimes difficult for a listener to know when they switch between Baagdi and Nepali.
But I dont know how much of this influence is because of migrations of that period or how much becuase of later migrations. Thakurs of Nepal are said to be related to Rajputs and later on marwari went there in huge no. There was another thread started by RK ji(I guess so) about Nepal and Jats.

-vinod
PS: I have a request though, please don't put ji with my name:-)... please dont mind this, ji soon ke ajeeb sa lagta hai...


Hi Vinodji, good search. I was reading this book Chapter-2 in which it gives the route of Aryan Migration as under -

It is supposed that the course of Aryan migration lay along the valleys of the Ganges and the Jumna. It cannot have been so simple. We must postulate at least two other lines of equal importance—one down the Indus, round the Gulf of Cutch, and so up to Avanti; and another along the foot of the mountains from Kashmir, by way of Kosala, to the Sākiya country, and so on through Tirhut to Magadha and Anga. There is a great deal more evidence available, both in literature and in the conclusions to be drawn from language, as to tribal migration in India than has yet been collected or analysed.

Mr. Grierson, for instance, has only just recently pointed out the important fact that, even now, the dialects of Rājasthān have a close resemblance to the dialects spoken along the Himalayas not only in Nepal but as far west, at least, as Chambā. This would tend to show that their ancestors must have been living close together when they began their wanderings to the east and the south respectively. Both started from the Northern Panjab, and probably neither migration followed the Ganges route.[Footnote: J.R.A.S., 1901, p. 808.]
Reference http://www.fsnow.com/text/buddhist-india/chapter2.htm
**********************
Note - I got a very important clue that there are number of things common between Rajasthan and Nepal. Common language and words. You find common names of places like Viratnagar, Sankhu etc. Common gotras also. There is a point of further research in this fact.

Regards,

sktewatia
November 24th, 2006, 11:30 PM
Early Jats migrated towards east in India along the foot hills of Himalayas. The simple reasons were that the mouths of river were not so wide and the jungles were not very thick. Thats why we find republican and democratic governments in North-West India and in the Foot-Hills of Himalayas.

Jats were not acquanted with Iron by this time. Their ornaments and even weapons were made of Gold and Bronze as attested by Herodotus later about Central Asian Getae. He also mentions about Horse Sacrifice (Aswamedha Yagna in Ramayna) prevalent among Gatae. He also mentions polyandry etc. Similar was the observation of Romila Thapar. Perhaps due to this reason Smith was of the opinion that Pandavas were non Aryans.

Has any body studied the Original Herodotus writings????? Soka may be excused. I know he did study it.

Shall I scan and send it to you people? Even if someone has studied it then what can you deduct fron it? We all are intelligent people here capable enough to deduce and just not to follow the quotations of Chandrabardayi etc.

sktewatia
November 25th, 2006, 12:12 AM
Jats gave at least these two epics Ramayna and Mahabharta. No one knows which one is older?

While Thapar and all other's theories is that Mahabharta is older because Mahabharta is in the west and Ramayna follows later in the east.

But usual Brahmnical theories are opposite.

But whichever way you choose you definitely find a Jat in the forefront.

For example whether Hanumann etc. were really Bunders (monkeys)? Jatayu, pakshi? Jambwant , a reechh (Bhalu, Bear)? What about Kale-Ravna got of Chandgi Ram?

Indus valley depicts a three horn-god surrounded by animals. I hope its Siva??????

Why most of Jat clans are closer to Animals/Plants etc.?

sktewatia
November 25th, 2006, 12:16 AM
later Siva of Modern times is depicted by Thapar as a combination of Vedic god Rudra and Tamil god Murugan. However, I feel its just a fantasy! Like all history about Jats is a fantasy!

sktewatia
November 25th, 2006, 12:37 AM
This combination of Jat and Iron created 16 Janpadas. All, invariably, headed by Jats. Those jungles which could not be cleared by Copper and Bronze were now being cleared by Iron by Jats. Huge surplus food was created now to maintain huge armies even to the extent that even Alexander was reversed just for the fear of Nandas (the Nandal Jats of Rohtak, some of whom positioned themselves at Patliputra).

If you study the rainfall from west to east I feel it varies from 37cm to the greatest in the world in Chirapunji, but I feel it varies gradually????

When the principle of limit and continuity applies from Maths/Physics/Science to any damn thing then why it does not apply in history????????

Similar is my question, again and again, that why Jats are found today in the most fertile/strategic/commercial///// etc. land today? and suddenly they are are not born here. then where had they come from? when,where from?

Why seudo-historians of greatest height are avoiding this question?

vinodks
November 25th, 2006, 10:39 PM
Laxman ji,
Its good to search for Jat history links in puranic genalogy but we have to go beyond it for complete history of Jats. As everyone knows puranas have been unfavorable for Jats and other related tribes(saka, huna, yavana) so their claims shouldn't be taken for granted. I dont know how much convincing Yadu-Jadu-Jat concept will be to other historians, we need more material on Mlechha and Bahika people than vedic genealogy. But its good to have knowledge of these clans line so I scanned vedic genealogy from Majumdar's "Vedic India", it could be used for further ref and we can put it yahoogroup file too....

http://www.wam.umd.edu/~vinods/genealogy.jpg

-vinod



*******************************
Hi Narenderji,

Banbhatta has mentioned about Saraswati in 'Harshacharita' he mentions that they took bath in Sarasvari river. Thanesar and Kurukshetra are in Haryana. The river originates from place very near to Thanesar. You can read 'Harshacharita' for that . It is in Jat history file section on Yahoo. The sarasvati river probably was in existence in 7th century. Here is a Map of Aryavrata you can see clearly Sarasvati river shown in it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Map_of_Vedic_India.png

If you study the dynasty of 'Yayati' which you can see on Jatland wiki here

http://www.jatland.com/home/Yayati

You will find that Yayati got two sons from Devyani – 1. Yadu and 2. Turvasu.

He also got three sons from Sharmishtha – 1. Druhyu 2. Anu and 3. Puru.

The descendants of Yadu are called Yadavvanshi in which was born Krishna, the founder of Jat sangha.

Ram Swarup Joon has given this ancestry in his book on Jat History, which is based on James Todd and Agni Purana. RS Joon mentions that nothing is known of Anu in Puranas. But when I was studying Sumerian Civilization we find lot about Anu. It means The five sons of Yayati can be considered to rule entire Aryavrata. In that situation we can not say there was a migration type of exodus at all. A jat satrap appointed went to that kingdom to rule with few of his trusted chieftains.

We can think on these lines and make a model about Aryan or Jat migration. My view is that Aryans have been coming and going at various times as the situations demanded. Aryavrata was their homeland. This theory is supported by many jat historians like Thakur Deshraj, Dr Natthan Singh etc.

We take present situation. For example Marwaris are doing business in entire world but they are from Haryana and Rajasthan. Situations arise, say naxalism in northwest, and they are forced to leave that place. They may leave that place for some time and go to Madras and Kolkata. On favourable conditions they again come to Assam. This type of situation prevailed at that time also.

Regards,

sktewatia
November 26th, 2006, 11:54 PM
Machhar Jats started writing as Mathurs. Nangdi Gujjars started writing as Nagars. Jatrann/Thakrann etc. write today as simply Rana. Kakrann will stop tomorrow as soon as he comes to know that its "Crow"'s Rana. Little knowing that it was Kukutsth (the KAK) only which was most responsible for this solar dynasty.

Similar, for lunar Mahabharat Dynasty, This Kaurav/Kharav is there. Little knowing that Kahrvela of Kalinga and Kar of Maharashtra are born from them. I feel that every surname in Maharashtra ends with Kar means hand/hasti/hastinapur in Sanskrit/prakrit, like Hastinapur Kharkhoda in Sonepat and Meerut.

lrburdak
November 27th, 2006, 09:00 AM
Machhar Jats started writing as Mathurs. Nangdi Gujjars started writing as Nagars. Jatrann/Thakrann etc. write today as simply Rana. Kakrann will stop tomorrow as soon as he comes to know that its "Crow"'s Rana. Little knowing that it was Kukutsth (the KAK) only which was most responsible for this solar dynasty.

Similar, for lunar Mahabharat Dynasty, This Kaurav/Kharav is there. Little knowing that Kahrvela of Kalinga and Kar of Maharashtra are born from them. I feel that every surname in Maharashtra ends with Kar means hand/hasti/hastinapur in Sanskrit/prakrit, like Hastinapur Kharkhoda in Sonepat and Meerut.
*************************
Tewatia ji, I get very important point from your this comment that Raja Kharavel was from Kharav means Kharab. I had been searching history of Kharavel. Kharavel has mentioned about Kaswan in an inscription that he got victory over Masik town with the help of Kaswan. Raja Kharavela has mentioned about the rule of Kaswan in 2nd century of Vikram samvat—‘Hathi Gumpha and three other inscriptions’ (page 24) in Sanskrit as under:

“Kusawanam Kshetriyanam cha Sahayyatavatan prapt masik nagaram”.

This means that the city of 'Masik' was obtained with the help of 'Kuswan' Kshatriyas.

I have added this in Wikipedia also. History is silent about Kharavel. Can you give some reference ? Thanks,
Regards,

smeker
November 30th, 2006, 05:40 PM
Early Jats migrated towards east in India along the foot hills of Himalayas. The simple reasons were that the mouths of river were not so Has any body studied the Original Herodotus writings????? Soka may be excused. I know he did study it.

Shall I scan and send it to you people? Even if someone has studied it then what can you deduct fron it? We all are intelligent people here capable enough to deduce and just not to follow the quotations of Chandrabardayi etc.
http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/2707

Is the book here
http://classics.mit.edu/Herodotus/history.html

lrburdak
December 1st, 2006, 09:50 AM
Kharvel gotra

Kharvel or Khāravela(खारवेल) is a gotra of Jats in India. It is derived from Raja Khāravela (खारवेल), who was a Jat king. [1]

History

Kharavela (Khāravela,खारवेल) (?209 - after 170 BC), was the king of Kalinga. He restored the power of Kalinga after it had been devastated in a war with Maurya King Ashoka. He was the third king of the Chedi dynasty. Not much information is known about this king. The only source of information is his famous Hathigumpha inscription.

After the death of Kanishka, his successors continued to rule north-west India, but their empire was much reduced. About the middle of 3rd century Vasudeva, one of Kanishka's successor, was defeated by Shahpur I of the new Sasanian dynasty of Persia, and from now on the north-west came under Iranian influence. Meanwhile new kingdoms had been set up in India. In Orissa a great conqueror, Khāravela, appeared in the latter half of the 1st century BC; he raided far and wide over India and was a great patron of Jainism; but his empire was short-lived, and we know nothing of his successors. [2]

Hathigumpha inscription

The Hathigumpha inscription mentions that:

In the 2nd year of his reign, he attacked the country if the Musikas, "disregarding Satakarni", the Satavahana king.

In the 8th year of his reign, he attacked Rajagriha in Magadha and forced the Indo-Greek king Demetrius (described as the Yavana named Dimita) to retreat to Mathura.

In the 12th year of his reign, he attacked the king of Uttarapatha. He then attacks the kingdom of Magadha, and in Pataliputra, the capital of the Sunga, makes king "Bahasatimita" (thought to be a Sunga king Brhaspatimitra, or Pusyamitra himself) bow at his feet.

Raja Kharavela has mentioned about the rule of Kaswan in 2nd century of Vikram samvat—‘Hathi Gumpha and three other inscriptions’ (page 24) in Sanskrit as under:

“Kusawanam Kshetriyanam cha Sahayyatavatan prapt masik nagaram”. [3]

This means that the city of 'Masik' was obtained with the help of 'Kuswan' Kshatriyas

He seems to have abandoned his throne in the 13th year of his reign, and was succeeded by his son Kudeparisi.

References

1.↑ Dr Mahendra Singh Arya, Dharmpal Singh Dudi, Kishan Singh Faujdar & Vijendra Singh Narwar: Ādhunik Jat Itihasa (The modern history of Jats), Agra 1998
2.↑ AL Basham: The wonder that was India, 2004, Page 62, ISBN 0 330 43909 X
3.↑ Kishori Lal Faujdar:Jat Samaj Monthly Magazine, Agra, January/February (2001) page-6

lrburdak
December 1st, 2006, 09:32 PM
Jatani is a city and a municipality in Khordha district in the Indian state of Orissa.


Geography

Jatani is located at 20.17° N 85.7° E[1]. It has an average elevation of 36 metres (118 feet).


Demographics

As of 2001 India censusGRIndia, Jatani had a population of 54,550. Males constitute 52% of the population and females 48%. Jatani has an average literacy rate of 78%, higher than the national average of 59.5%: male literacy is 83%, and female literacy is 72%. In Jatani, 11% of the population is under 6 years of age.

sktewatia
December 1st, 2006, 11:43 PM
But Kar there in Orissa are Brahmins. Like in Sambhalpur, Cuttuk, Bhubneshwar, Puri etc. I investigated about Rath also but they are not aware of their past. Little do they know that they are the descendents of great Rathi jats, whose king Balhara was among the four most powerful persons of the world.

Your Khorda also seemed to be like Bhainsru-khurd in Rohtak/Sampla. And modern Khurdistan, where Jats were deployed when they lost the control of Basra-Baghdad road.

sktewatia
December 1st, 2006, 11:56 PM
long back when I was a little child, my father told me that Konark temple is a creation of Jats.

sktewatia
December 2nd, 2006, 02:48 AM
As the name jat is conected somehow whit schytians and gutians,both people came from the same himalayan area,must be original from west Himalaya area.

what is the basis of your this hypothesis?

As far as Indian/south asian Jat goes, Jat is not found as soon as fertile area goes off. I dnt know what kind of Jats you had there near Rome Empire? But I feel that this very culture and Roman empire was creation of we Jats only.

smeker
December 2nd, 2006, 03:24 AM
what is the basis of your this hypothesis?

As far as Indian/south asian Jat goes, Jat is not found as soon as fertile area goes off. I dnt know what kind of Jats you had there near Rome Empire? But I feel that this very culture and Roman empire was creation of we Jats only.
when i say west himalaya ,i was think at the sourounding area of himalaya not at himalaya it self.:)

smeker
December 2nd, 2006, 04:13 AM
long back when I was a little child, my father told me that Konark temple is a creation of Jats.
Konark temple,build by King Narasimhadeva I (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Narasimhadeva_I&action=edit) in 13 century
http://www.imsc.res.in/~golam/travel/Konark/Sculpturs-at-Konark-Temple.jpg

smeker
December 2nd, 2006, 04:22 AM
long back when I was a little child, my father told me that Konark temple is a creation of Jats.


what is the basis of your this hypothesis?

As far as Indian/south asian Jat goes, Jat is not found as soon as fertile area goes off. I dnt know what kind of Jats you had there near Rome Empire? But I feel that this very culture and Roman empire was creation of we Jats only.
was not the greeks that made the roman culture?Why this questions about romans?Did you know that goths concore half of the roman empire in the 5 century?

lrburdak
December 2nd, 2006, 08:28 AM
Khordha district of Orissa seems to be connected with Khor (खोड़) Jats. Khod or Khor (खोड़) gotra Jats are found in Madhya Pradesh. Distribution in Madhya Pradesh is at Barnawad village in Rajgarh.

There is also a Jat gotra called Khoria which is after khirwali place. khirwal or Khirwar are the Jats who founded Narsinghpur city in Madhya Pradesh and they were followers of Narsingha. They built two temples of Narsingha at Narsinghpur in MP.

There seems a Jat connection in Orissa.

sktewatia
December 2nd, 2006, 02:48 PM
There was statue of Sun God found at Beri village in Rohtak. It was also of 13th century. This was published in news paper long back along with the book review of BS Dahiya around in early 1980s. Looks Jats still had interest in Sun god as recent as 13-14th centuries.

sktewatia
December 2nd, 2006, 02:52 PM
Khordha district of Orissa seems to be connected with Khor (खोड़) Jats. Khod or Khor (खोड़) gotra Jats are found in Madhya Pradesh. Distribution in Madhya Pradesh is at Barnawad village in Rajgarh.

There is also a Jat gotra called Khoria which is after khirwali place. khirwal or Khirwar are the Jats who founded Narsinghpur city in Madhya Pradesh and they were followers of Narsingha. They built two temples of Narsingha at Narsinghpur in MP.

There seems a Jat connection in Orissa.

Yes its true, wherever you find Indo-European language all over world, Jat has be there in history in near or distant past. I read some where that Odhrann Jats gave Orissa its present name.

lrburdak
December 2nd, 2006, 10:04 PM
Khordha (also written Khurda) is an administrative division of the state of Orissa, India. In the year 2000 the district name was changed to Khordha. The district headquarters is Khordha Town, formerly known as Jajarsingh, or Kurada. The capital city of Bhubaneswar is located in this district. Khurda is the most urbanized of all the districts of Orissa.

It was the capital of Orissa from 1568 to 1803. It is also known for its fort, often described as the "last independent fort".

Khurda came into prominence when the first Rajas of the Khordha dynasty, Ramachandra Deva, made it the capital of his kingdom during the last part of the 16th century.

Khurda occupies a distinct place in the historical map of Orissa. Khurda was the capital of Orissa Kingdom from 1568.

Khurdagada is known as known as the "Last Independent Fort" of India. Now the remains of this historic fort lies as an evidence of our glorious past. Bhubaneswar, the capital of Orissa belongs to this district.

Important Places in Khordha

Atri : It is situated at the distance of 42 km from Bhubaneswar .It is famous for sulfur Spring and a temple dedicated to Lord Hatakeswara.

Barunei : This temple is situated on the Barunei Mountain.It is at a distance of 32 km from Bhubaneswar. Goddess Barunei is the famous deity of Khurda.
Chilka : Situated at a distance of 100 km from the state capital Bhubaneswar, lake is the largest lake of the country.

Dhauli : It is situated at a distance of 15 km from Bhubaneswar. The rock edict of Dhauli bears the early history of Kalinga and this rock edict was engraved by Emperor Ashok.

Khandagiri and Udayagiri : These twin hills are situated in Bhubaneswar. There are 117 caves in these twin hills. The Rani Gumpha is the largest cave in the Udaygiri hill. Another famous cave called the Hati Gumpha is also there where the rock is engraved by King Kharavela. These caves contain a beautiful Barabhuja temple and a Jain temple.

Blocks:
1. Balianta
2. Balipatana
3. Balugaon
4. Banapur
5. Begunia
6. Bolgarh
7. Bhubaneswar
8. Jatani
9. Khurda sadar
10. Tangi


Tahasils:
1. Banapur
2. Bhubaneswar
3. Khurda


Sub-Divisions:
1. Bhubaneswar
2. Khurda
********************************
Note:- I have highlighted the places connected with Jat gotras. Bahara, Bana, Khor, Khirwar, Atri, Chilka, Dhaulya etc are all Jat gotras. Members may like to connect more Jat info of Orissa.

Regards,

lrburdak
December 3rd, 2006, 03:33 PM
Konark (or Konarak) (Sanskrit: कोनार्क) is a small town in the state of Orissa, India, on the Bay of Bengal, sixty-five kilometres from Bhubaneswar. It is the site of the 13th-century Sun Temple (also known as the Black Pagoda), built in black granite by King Narasimhadeva I (AD 1236-1264) of the Gangas dynasty.

Note that the Gangas is a Jat gotra. Ghangus or Ghanghas is gotra of Jats found in Distt Bhiwani, Panipat and Jind of Haryana. Also found in Bhopal.
Gangarides is the Race as described by Megasthenes in his book Indica. It is same as Ghangus.

sktewatia
December 3rd, 2006, 06:38 PM
Yes, Ganges (modern Ganga, like Indus/Sindhu), river derives its original name from Gungus Jats only. Like wise Jamun/Jhamman Jats (Jhamman Singh etc. are common names of Jats, like Malkhan Singh etc. prooving that Khan also was initially a Jat title).

vinodks
December 4th, 2006, 09:22 AM
-----------------------------------repeat

vinodks
December 4th, 2006, 09:24 AM
Ganga (गंगा) dynasty of Orissa has nothing to do with Ghanghas (घनघस) Jats... logic is same as Kadyan Jats have nothing to do with Akkadian dynasty (2000BC) of mesopotamia as claimed by Dahiya among other such outrageous claims...
Lets be careful before writing such claims because they will never make their way in mainstream history of India and we would incur damage to ourselves by earning discredibility and spreading misinformed opinions to few interested Jats in this website...
The only ref made ot Ghanghas by Ibbeston is the popular myth which I heard in my village too(which has few ghanghas family who migrated from pakistan during partition)... that ghanghas = ghan + ghas... ghan(stone) ko ghasne(grinding) wale... ofcourse it may only be myth and further study could be done without casual efforts of matching similar sounding words...
Dahiya relates Ghanghas to khanghas and thus to Kong Khas (some leader in white huna tribes) who is said to fight with some sassanid king of persia... Ibbeston calls ghanghas and Khanghas as different people... further ref. are welcome if anyone has any... but in such circumstances its not proper to relate ghanghas to Ganga dynasty of Orissa or Ganges river....

-vinod


Konark (or Konarak) (Sanskrit: कोनार्क) is a small town in the state of Orissa, India, on the Bay of Bengal, sixty-five kilometres from Bhubaneswar. It is the site of the 13th-century Sun Temple (also known as the Black Pagoda), built in black granite by King Narasimhadeva I (AD 1236-1264) of the Gangas dynasty.

Note that the Gangas is a Jat gotra. Ghangus or Ghanghas is gotra of Jats found in Distt Bhiwani, Panipat and Jind of Haryana. Also found in Bhopal.
Gangarides is the Race as described by Megasthenes in his book Indica. It is same as Ghangus.

lrburdak
December 4th, 2006, 05:57 PM
Hi Vinod,

How do you reject the theory that Ganga dynasty did not belong to ghangas Jats. You see wikipedia. Here Ganga dynasty is written as Gangas -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Ganga_Dynasty

It tells that Several theories have been propounded regarding the origin of the Gangas. Some historians believe that the Gangas were immigrants from the North and were descendants of the Kanva dynasty of north India,
Some of their inscriptions indicate they belogned to Jahnaveya kula and Kanvayana gotra. Others believe they hailed from Kongunadu in present day Tamil Nadu.

They also called themselves decendents of a ruler of Ikshavaku vamsha.

Thakur Deshraj in his book on page 143 has written that Gangarides Race as described by Megasthenes in his book Indica is same as Ghangus Jats.

Gangaridai was the name of a country in the 300 BC in the Indian subcontinent. It was described by the Greek traveller Megasthenes in his work Indica. The Greek and Latin historians suggested that Alexander the Great withdrew from India anticipating the valiant counter attack of the mighty Gangaridai and Prasioi empires which were located in the Bengal region. It is not, however, clearly known who built these empires.

During Alexander's invasion

"When he (Alexander) moved forward with his forces certain men came to inform him that Porus, the king of the country, who was the nephew of that Porus whom he had defeated, had quitted his kingdom and fled to the nation of Gandaridai... He had obtained from Phegeus a description of the country beyond the Indus'' ... Quoted from The Classical Accounts of India, Dr R. C. Majumder, p. 170-72/234.

This points towards movement of jats to this area of Gangaridai. The possibility of Gangaridai being Ghangas Jat can not be simply rejected without sufficient evidences.

sktewatia
December 4th, 2006, 09:02 PM
well, Vinodji, I repeat.

Its not only orissa but elsewhere also we find these Gungus Jats ruling with Kadambas (Kadyanvas), Salkalayan etc.

Plz pick up any ncert book or any other book of history. ne south indian history says it.

and that Gangaikonda, the Chola was nothing else but Chahl/Chahal Jat.

sktewatia
December 4th, 2006, 09:09 PM
Luxmanji is on right track. Let him describe the real history by commonsense and the proofs available.

sktewatia
December 4th, 2006, 10:04 PM
Ghungus, Salkalayan (modern Tomers), Kadambas (modern Kadyanvas) ...

all three ruling togather with Palaavas, Chedis...etc. can not be just a coincidence...

all were Jats.

sktewatia
December 4th, 2006, 10:15 PM
I spent many nites in Tughlak Fort. I really tried to climb it. Then only I'm giving my statement.

Fokat me idhar udhar se padh ke is Jat history me kisi ko kuchh nahin mila.

vinodks
December 4th, 2006, 11:56 PM
First a request to all, plz dont put ji with my name... I had requested this couple of times before... secondly, plz try be sober while writing...

-vinod


I spent many nites in Tughlak Fort. I really tried to climb it. Then only I'm giving my statement.

Fokat me idhar udhar se padh ke is Jat history me kisi ko kuchh nahin mila.

ravichaudhary
December 5th, 2006, 01:39 AM
I had written on this some time go. see: -



http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/message/3295


The Ghangas

At the turn of the first millennium circa 0 BCE, we find a movement of
Jats from the Afghanistan central Asian area into the Indian
subcontinent. they were known to Indian historians by various names,
as Kushans in the North ,and as Saka in the Sind area.

They established various Janpadhs or republics, and also threw up a
number of rulers, people like Kaniska for the Kushans, and Rudraraman
etc for the Sakas.

Their territory spread from Central Asia, to the Bay of Bengal and
Orissa, and central and Southern India

We find many movements of Jat clans both southwards and back
northwards- Chalukya (Solankis), Rathi Dahiya, Kuntal, Dasarna, and
Virk etc

This is an account of the Ghangas, Gangas clan.

The Ghangas are also written as the Gangas.

In later times some historians took note of the empires established by
a clan, which was known as the Ghangas or Gangas, and as the Eastern
and Western Ghangas. The clan name is the same as the Gang (a),
Ghangas, of Haryana, U.P.

Professor Harihar Quanago made an exploration of the Gangas clan
origins etc, and though his account is steeped in much speculation and
Puranic lore, it does contain some interesting facts, which he has not
been able to connect. Beyond a vague statement that they came from
North India, from the Ganga –Yamuna basins.

We find two major dynasties in South India, over the period, known as
the Eastern Gangas and the Western Gangas.

The empires spread from Karnatak, to Orissa, to Andhra Pradesh.

The Southern Gangas histories state that they came south from North
India. About 500 CE, led by leader Vishnugupta.

They were originally from the land between the Ganga and the Jumna
/Yamuna rivers. They are linked to Ahichtra and Ayodhyapur in the
Ganga/Jumna basin.

All this area is Jat territory.

We also find a Jat Goth ` Gangas" in Modern Haryana, Punjab and
Western U.P.

Who were these Gangas?

In his article, Dr. Harihar Quanago tells us,

That the Gangas came from North India in 5th century CE, and settled
in Karnatak and Kalinga (modern Orissa,) and then ventured further south.

He tells us "In the Andhavaram copperplate inscription of Indravarman
III of Ganga dynasty, the Gangas are described as the descendants of
the `Tumbura' dynasty

So far (per Dr Quanago, but not quite true) no historian has been able
to identify this Tumbura as a dynasty.
It is mentioned in the Vayu Purana that at the foot hills of the
Vindhyas, there was a Janapada (human habitation) named Tumura, Tumbura:
"Toshalah Koshalaschaiva Taipura Vaidisastratha
Tumurastamburaschaiva sat Suranishadhaih saha
Anupastundikerascha Vitihotrahyabantayah
Ete Janapadah sarve Vindhya prustha nivasinah."
[Vayu Purana, 1st Part, 45 chapters, Bharatvarsha Varnana.]
The translation of these lines is given below. The Janapadas such as
Tosali,
Kosala, Tripura, Vidisha, Tumura, Tumhura, Nishadha, Anupa,
Sundhikera, Vitihotra
and Abanti are at the foot of the Vindhyas. This implies that all
these Janapadas are to
the north of the Vindhyas.


"Tumura Tumbura adi Janapada jete
Vindhyagiri antarbhukta emane Samaste."7


These two lines can be translated as follows. The Janapadas like
Tumura, Tumbura
etc. are all situated at the foot of the Vindhyas"


. Bachan Dubey, a researcher, while identifying the Tumbura race, has
aptly stated, while dealing with the Janapadas of Vindhya Pristha of
puranic period, mentions Malaya, Karusa (Baghel Khand), Mekala
(Amarkantak), Utkal, Dasarma (Dhasan), Kiskindha (it is different from
Kiskindha of South India), Tosali (Sisupalagarh in Orissa), Kosala
(Dakshina Kosala, Raipur Bilaspur), Tripuri (Tripuri near Jabalpur),
Vaidisa (Bhelsa), Naisadha (Narvargarh), Tundikara (Sindikar in
Matsya), Vitihotra, Anupa (Omkar Mandhatri along the Narmada) and
Tumbara (Tumain-Tumburu, Masya)".



What this does tell us , and this is confirmed by general history,-
is the expansion of Jats into central and South India, more commonly
known to Historians as the expansion of the
"Kushan' and the' Dharan Gupta' empires.

In the term `Tumura- we easily recognize the `Tumar or Tomar'. Clan of Jats. Utkal, Dasarna, Malaya (Mal, Malli) Kisking, Vaidisa, Matsya, Kara are also all Jat goths or clan names.


He writes:

." This means the Kaivarttas had first settled on the bank of river
Saraju (Sarayu) or river Gogri in Oudh or Ayodhya. There is a
tradition to the effect that their Ancestors had settled in Midnapur district in 822 Saka eras crossing the plateau of Madhya Pradesh. The five leaders who led them to this region had established five separate kingdoms namely, (1) Tamralipta or Tamluk, (2) Balisita or Mainagarh, (3) Turkee, (4) Sujamutha, (5) Kutabpur."

Here we see the movement continues in the year 822 Saka, or circa 746
CE. We find a name Turkee, or Turka, which is another variant of the
Jat Goth Tur or Toor, of which again Tomar, Tumar is a variant.

The Gangas link to the Tomar clan of Jats is also quite interesting.

For brief note about the Gangas of Southern India from Wikipedia,
which will need review and amendment see;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gangas

Ravi Chaudhary


For Harihar's Quanango's article see

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/message/3296



Re: Ghangas( Gangas) Jats of North and South India

THE ORIGIN OF GANGA DYNASTY
· A NEW INSIGHT

narenderkharb
December 5th, 2006, 07:44 AM
I had written on this some time go. see: -


we find a movement of Jats from the Afghanistan central Asian area into the Indian
subcontinent. they were known to Indian historians by various names,
as Kushans in the North ,and as Saka in the Sind area.

They established various Janpadhs or republics, and also threw up a
number of rulers, people like Kaniska for the Kushans, and Rudraraman
etc for the Sakas.

Their territory spread from Central Asia, to the Bay of Bengal and
Orissa, and central and Southern India

We find many movements of Jat clans both southwards and back
northwards- Chalukya (Solankis), Rathi Dahiya, Kuntal, Dasarna, and
Virk etc



Ravi and laxman ji

This is a major problem with JAT History

We are not able to identify the people who were we related to and than trace their movement.

Where according to Laxman ji sugesstion ghangas may be well settled in bengal areas in 300 BC .according to you they made their movement and settled as kushana and saka somewhere first century BC or AD.

Now you both supporting gangas as ghanghas jats are reffering to diffrent set of people and here entire jat history look just a manipulative excercise.

Now these tomar tur tushar or takhar groups related to kushan jats didn't reach bengal in 300 BC THAN how ghangas Jats could be tomars who were related to ghandarides.


So in order to have a better understanding of our history and a true reflection of our past we should try to identify exact group of people with which we can be identified and for that we need a healthy discussion about various models regarding our antiquity ...

Now I am trying this for a long time on yahoo jat history group , so that our conclusions are solid as solutions are found only via discussions .

But you seems not intersted at all,despite of so many reminders ,I simply can't understand why?really disppointed us.

My emphasis to know your and laxman ji's views was because of the fact that you present that to all others via internet as a jat view point about our history in addition to jattworld and ******** ,unless we have a clear approach about us how can we tell others about our past ,who will read our conflicting asssumptions and suggestions than will simply say it is all a futile attempt to cater to a jat ego.

So let us discuss all these theories and models of jat movement and settlement pattern ,arrive at a conclusion and than present our unquestionable view to others.

Otherwise we are happy as Gangas were Ghanghas jats.. Kabambas were Kadyan jats... Kushan were Kaswans jats.... Chola were Chahal jats...... ,yes all were jats.... but sometimes wonder why you forget Jatavs that were first jats as well on a more similar name and similar reasoning.

lrburdak
December 5th, 2006, 08:48 AM
Hi Narender ji,

We are searching and unless the search is complete we can not conclude. So keep on searching till we reach truth.

I make you clear that Jatavs were not Jats. The Bharatpur Dynasty established by displacing Balai people dwelling in that area earlier. To run a state it was necessary to keep balai (harijans) in good mood. So it was decided by the Jat rulers of Bharatpur that they be given a title 'Jatav' indicating the brothers of Jats. It is wrong to derive Jat word from Jatav. Jat word is as old as Brahma.

regards,

vinodks
December 5th, 2006, 08:56 AM
Just to clarify... the difference between words Ganga and Ghanghas is not just 2 h's and 1 s... first of all when one writes Gangas, is it plural of गंगा ? or is it गनगस?... Ghanghas (घनघस्)altogether seems to make a different word... on side note, there is a clan Gangah(गंगाह्) clan of Jats is listed in tribes and castes but no other info is available... other remark is that, the words of historians like Thakur Desraj or anyone shouldn't be taken on the face value unless primary ref is quoted in the book... even in that too, its important to see how primary source is interpreted... anyway, good luck...

Kharb, your discussion for model is welcome... start a new thread... I would mostly end up agreeing with that but we could have discussion...

-vinod

lrburdak
December 6th, 2006, 09:19 AM
Q1. Who were the people in the army who fought Kalinga War by Ashoka ?

Q2. Do all agree that Kharavela was a Jat ?

Q3. Where people have gone after Kalingawar ?

Regards,

vinodks
December 7th, 2006, 04:16 AM
A S Altekar's book is out of print but IT IS ONLINE....

http://dli.iiit.ac.in/cgi-bin/Browse/scripts/use_scripts/advnew/aui/bookreader_india/bookReader_test.cgi?barcode=2030020004253

Sadly on a brief browse it doesn't seem to have much ref to Jats... but looks interesting how panchayat system got developed... its not obvious to link present panchayat system with ancient republics and there are missing links too...

-vinod


Ravi ji,
I agree that Sharma's book is probabily best treatment of republics of vedic and northeast India but it's not about republics of northwest India after 500BC(Jat tribes). It's generally said that writers like Jayaswal and Majumdar had been little liberal in glorifying ancient govt system becuase they were nationalist writers in time of India's new independence and there was subconscious attempt to prove that India is capable of governing itself. Something like -Democracy is not new, we knew it 2000 years back.
Sharma says that Altekar's "State and Govt in Ancient India" is better than these writers so I just ordered it. There is another book by Altekar.

A history of village communities in western India, (University of Bombay. Economic series, no. v) (Unknown Binding) by Anant Sadashiv Altekar
http://www.amazon.com/history-village-communities-University-Economic/dp/B00085DES2/sr=1-21/qid=1164341315/ref=sr_1_21/102-0232693-2947375?ie=UTF8&s=books

It would be really interesting to read history of village community in northwest india, it might have some missing links about Jat history. But I dont know how to get this book:-((.

-vinod

sktewatia
December 7th, 2006, 03:25 PM
One important point I'm catching from Burdakji's and all other people here that It is describing Jat migration from North West to rest of India at least after 600 BC with the advent of Iron. Jats carried their social system and material culture and agriculture to further deeper in India. From here is the beginning of Jat/Got (caste system) which originally was nothing but Jat (our race) system only. Modern/ancient caste system of India is nothing but a corrupt form of our Jat system only.

This Aryan-isation/Aryanisation of India from Rigvedic North West India, should in fact be written as Jat-isation/Jatisation in history. Again there are no traces all over in rest of India of Aryan word now but Jat (caste in english) and Got(present gotra) words are abundantly prevalent. Both of these words are derived from We Jats and Gots only.

Though we may all be not very precise here (rather we can not be also because Jat history is yet to be explored), but mota-moti Present dicussion does answer the natural querry that if Jats can be found in North and West right upto Scandinavia then they must be found in east and south (India) also.

sktewatia
December 7th, 2006, 09:53 PM
Q1. Who were the people in the army who fought Kalinga War by Ashoka ?

Q2. Do all agree that Kharavela was a Jat ?

Q3. Where people have gone after Kalingawar ?

Regards,

Ans. 1-3. They were mostly Jats led by Kharvela who faught with another Jat Asoka. Asoka was a young ambitious fellow. A mixture of Jat (bindusar) with Brahmin Mother. His forefathers tolerated Kalinga and deep south due to these reasons only. I recall his expedition to Kabul/Kandhar area also. Similar, he tried in Kalinga. It was basically a fight between Mor and Kharav paals.

His policy of Dhamma can be explained in a similar way as that of Ajatshatru, the son of Bimbisara.

sktewatia
December 7th, 2006, 10:02 PM
Q.3. People of Kalinga had gone nowhere they had been absorbed over there in Jat (caste) system.

lrburdak
December 8th, 2006, 08:47 AM
Five villages demanded by Pandavas
Mahabharata tells that When Pandavas were defeated in chausar they were forced to leave the state for 13 years. During most of this time, they lived at place called Varnavata (modern Bairat) in Jaipur district in Rajasthan. Having lived there for pretty long time, the Pandawas sent a message to the Kauravas that they won't lay their claim to the throne if they were given just five villages. These 5 villages were :

1. Indraprastha (Purana Qila - Delhi
2. Panprastha (Panipat) - Haryana
3. Sonprastha (Sonipat) - Haryana
4. Tilprastha (Tilpat) - Haryana
5. Vyagprastha (Bagpat) - Uttar Pradesh

If you study the population of people who lived in all thse areas mentioned in Mahabharata it is is found to be the homeland of Jats.

The literary-cum-historical analysis and the archaeological evidence from Hastinapur and other related sites clearly indicate that it is the Painted Gray Ware Culture that was associated with the Mahabharata story and the event took place in 900 BC.

All these are still Jat villages. In ancient times these were included in Haryana. Haryana is nothing but Aryana. Here H is absent which is not un common as we speak Hospital as Aspatal in Hindi and Urdu. It is due to linguistic variations.

Thus Aryans were Jats inhabiting ancient Haryana and at the same time their another branch was at Iran which is also known as Aryana. The similarity of many common places and rivers proves this.

sktewatia
December 8th, 2006, 07:20 PM
Haryanka dynasty of Bimbisara. And later Nandal Jats there as Nandas in Magdha.

sktewatia
December 8th, 2006, 07:27 PM
And that Ajatshatru was there. Ajat means non-Jat. He was enemy of non-Jat, the son of Bimbisara.

nknauhwar
December 8th, 2006, 09:41 PM
We can work out on Ajatshatru now. Who, he was? Why Bindusra, Bimbisra, Kadwasra, Motsara, even Jatasra, Morasara and Narasara are there?

nknauhwar
December 9th, 2006, 06:37 AM
Five villages demanded by Pandavas
Mahabharata tells that When Pandavas were defeated in chausar they were forced to leave the state for 13 years. During most of this time, they lived at place called Varnavata (modern Bairat) in Jaipur district in Rajasthan. Having lived there for pretty long time, the Pandawas sent a message to the Kauravas that they won't lay their claim to the throne if they were given just five villages. These 5 villages were :

1. Indraprastha (Purana Qila - Delhi
2. Panprastha (Panipat) - Haryana
3. Sonprastha (Sonipat) - Haryana
4. Tilprastha (Tilpat) - Haryana
5. Vyagprastha (Bagpat) - Uttar Pradesh

If you study the population of people who lived in all thse areas mentioned in Mahabharata it is is found to be the homeland of Jats.

The literary-cum-historical analysis and the archaeological evidence from Hastinapur and other related sites clearly indicate that it is the Painted Gray Ware Culture that was associated with the Mahabharata story and the event took place in 900 BC.

All these are still Jat villages. In ancient times these were included in Haryana. Haryana is nothing but Aryana. Here H is absent which is not un common as we speak Hospital as Aspatal in Hindi and Urdu. It is due to linguistic variations.

Thus Aryans were Jats inhabiting ancient Haryana and at the same time their another branch was at Iran which is also known as Aryana. The similarity of many common places and rivers proves this.

Please, include Patlipat (Patliputra) of Magadh also.

Usually Pat ending villages/places are found on the banks of rivers. Pandavas were wise enough to demand them.

Even Indraprastha is called as Indpat. I get this clue because I'm from Braj (Mathura) area. In my language Pat is usually associated with water.

sktewatia
December 10th, 2006, 01:42 PM
Its good. Evenfurther extending it Vishakhapatnam, Machhlipatnam, etc. They are also found near water/ocean.

The meaning of Ajatshatru, as deduced in history books that he was enemyless, is wrong. He rather had many enemies, perhaps more than any other king. Even to the extent that his own father and maternal uncles were his enemies. The name is Ajatshatru and not Agyatshatru. He respected Budha and often badly depicted by Brahmnical texts, like Nandas and Mauryas. With beginning of Iron, Jats were able to clear dense forests along river Ganges where continuosly increasing rainfall and enough water in Ganges river (Ganges drains the water of 25% area of India), produced enough surplus food to maintain huge armies. This gave rise to 16 Mahajanpadas. Where different other people were also to be Jatised/Aryanised to make them learn agriculture and civilised/Jat life. So adopting such title by a Jat king is not surprising.

Otherwise also counter question arises that if not Jat, then what else this Haryanka dynasti was????

sktewatia
December 10th, 2006, 09:43 PM
Caste/Jat Sytem of Indian Subcontinent: Jat and Brahmins

Brahmins were just one of the 16 royal clans of Aryans or one of the clans of Jats. Their original name Brahm is still Jat got and it is found even today in various european nations also. Many Jats who proceeded further to make other races civilised or to Jatise them came to be known as Brahmins. This Jat/caste system however did not remain same as original Jat system. When these Brahmins came back to make their Jat/Caste/Jati system they were rebuffed by Jats. Little did they know that they were teaching their own masters their own system.

Jat's jatis were their gots, all equal. But later Jat/caste system or even called Brahmanical system came back with different Jats/Jatis which were not equal.

Most of this Jatisation spread and got compacted in India after Iron. The Indus/Aryan civilisations are not mentioning the Iron. Its not depicted anywhere in Mahabharta itself. These are called bronze civilisations. That jungle used to be burnt for clearing the land for agriculture. Thats why fire god was given such importance. Concept of Yagna came from here only.

Some Jat historians were bold like Desraj, Joon and Dahiya etc. That time it was hard to believe what they said. But they did tackle well some crucial and astonishing points in history. I like Kharav's theory also in this regard. Though may not be very precise but heavy arguments are there in its favour.

vinodks
December 11th, 2006, 08:45 PM
Thanks for keeping humor in jat history section, otherwise it become quite boring... Ajatshatru(born of Bimbisara and Lichhavi or Koshal lady) was enemy of Vajjan confedracy which also was, according to you of course, nothing but Jats...

-vinod


And that Ajatshatru was there. Ajat means non-Jat. He was enemy of non-Jat, the son of Bimbisara.

sktewatia
December 11th, 2006, 10:46 PM
Q. 1. What was this Haryanka Dynasty?
Q. 2. Who was Ajat Shatru? Why adopted this Title? What does it mean?
Q. 3. Jat word is found before Mauryas, the More Jats, why so?
Q. 4. Why questioning always please contribute at least something.

sktewatia
December 12th, 2006, 01:04 AM
there was no ARYAN. and no INVASION. Its Indus civilization and Jats only.

sktewatia
December 12th, 2006, 02:37 AM
where had Aryan come from? and where had/has he gone?
where had Jat come from? and where had/has he gone?
where had the Newton's law......

narenderkharb
December 12th, 2006, 08:33 AM
Thanks for keeping humor in jat history section, otherwise it become quite boring... Ajatshatru(born of Bimbisara and Lichhavi or Koshal lady) was enemy of Vajjan confedracy which also was, according to you of course, nothing but Jats...

-vinod

History as we disussd earlier can only be searched by constant reasoning questions and counter questions....Hypothesis and counterhypothesis..

I proposed long back to tewatia ji and may be to Laxman ji also in my personal meeting that Ajatsatru looks to have a connection with Jats but our suggestions were diametrically opposite...


I thought that Ajatsatru adopted this title as he was enemy of jats not a jat himself.


My reasoning for this theory was .....

As jats were known as ajzats only and indian pronunciation of azat is zat , and till today we call ourselves zats not jats if someone notice bit carefuly.

These parthian zats theory I proposed to Ravi ji also (in addition to other forms both jats and non Jats like IDF)during his last visit to India as not only their clans but their area of inhabitance their migration and their reference in Indian books make it clear that they were jats only.

I further stressed that it is the only missing link in our history that other Jat historians failed to notice.


Now there were two strong kingdom in time around ajatsatru ..

One was northwest kingdom of Morya and considered Jats that was really poweful to get the matrimonial alliances of Iranian great Kings.

and other eastern ajatsatru empire...

Naturally their was enemity and a conflict must have been wars and like prbhakarwardhan who took the title HUN HARIN(destroyer of Huns) ajatsatru took the title of Ajatsatru ie enemy of azats(most probably morya jats) whose kingdom was centred around Ghandara .

I again stress taking this missing link ,in Jat history will amply clear the hazy picture about Jat history.

But before that let us see what are the weak points in this propostions.

vinodks
December 12th, 2006, 09:56 AM
App, thoda sa control kra karo plz...

-vinod


where had Aryan come from? and where had/has he gone?
where had Jat come from? and where had/has he gone?
where had the Newton's law......

vinodks
December 12th, 2006, 10:10 AM
Problem comes when we apply too much imgination and become less self-critic...

Ajatshatru's (in prakrit Ajatsattu) other name was Kunika as Bimishra's other name was Srenika... Ajatshtru is title like Akber's title was Jalaluddin (most of ancient kings had a title, e.g. I could come across atleast 5 kings who had tilte Vikramditya)...

Ajatshatru title has been adapted by other kings too e.g. Yuddhistra in Gita's 1.10.32.... there are atleast 10 such verses in which this meaning is intended, I am pasting them at the end of the post...

ajāta-śatruḥ pṛtanāḿ
gopīthāya madhu-dviṣaḥ
parebhyaḥ śańkitaḥ snehāt
prāyuńkta catur-ańgiṇīm

SYNONYMS
ajāta-śatruḥ — Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, who was no one's enemy;
(source http://vedabase.net/sb/1/10/32/)

Etymolgocally Ajatshatru means man with no enemy... root is jata which vast range of meanings (http://www.vedabase.net/j/jata)
Also look of meaning of ajata (http://www.vedabase.net/a/ajata)

Jata and sujata(one with noble birth) are oft mentioned names in Rgveda and Dahiya had been very liberal in takeing them JAT... we dont find word JAT in ancient scripture it might be that it orginated from jat but no such proof exists... so meaning of Ajtshatru meaning enemy of Jats is absurd... he was enemy of Lichhavi, Videha and Malla confedracy, lets leave it at that...

Ajatshatru is commonly used word today too... people use it in day to day life and a quick search shows that http://www.swaminarayan.org/shastrijimaharaj/life/30.htm

I wont bother to put more links....

-vinod


History as we disussd earlier can only be searched by constant reasoning questions and counter questions....Hypothesis and counterhypothesis..

I proposed long back to tewatia ji and may be to Laxman ji also in my personal meeting that Ajatsatru looks to have a connection with Jats but our suggestions were diametrically opposite...


I thought that Ajatsatru adopted this title as he was enemy of jats not a jat himself.


My reasoning for this theory was .....

As jats were known as ajzats only and indian pronunciation of azat is zat , and till today we call ourselves zats not jats if someone notice bit carefuly.

These parthian zats theory I proposed to Ravi ji also (in addition to other forms both jats and non Jats like IDF)during his last visit to India as not only their clans but their area of inhabitance their migration and their reference in Indian books make it clear that they were jats only.

I further stressed that it is the only missing link in our history that other Jat historians failed to notice.


Now there were two strong kingdom in time around ajatsatru ..

One was northwest kingdom of Morya and considered Jats that was really poweful to get the matrimonial alliances of Iranian great Kings.

and other eastern ajatsatru empire...

Naturally their was enemity and a conflict must have been wars and like prbhakarwardhan who took the title HUN HARIN(destroyer of Huns) ajatsatru took the title of Ajatsatru ie enemy of azats(most probably morya jats) whose kingdom was centred around Ghandara .

I again stress taking this missing link ,in Jat history will amply clear the hazy picture about Jat history.

But before that let us see what are the weak points in this propostions.

vinodks
December 12th, 2006, 10:11 AM
http://www.vedabase.net/a/ajata

ajata

ajāta-śatroḥ — of one who has no enemy; SB 1.8.5
ajāta-śatrau — unto one who has no enemy; SB 1.10.6
ajāta-śatruḥ — Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, who was no one's enemy; SB 1.10.32
ajāta — never born; SB 1.13.31
ajāta-śatrum — unto Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira; SB 1.13.36
ajāta-śatroḥ — of one who had no enemy; SB 3.1.8
ajāta-śatroḥ — of Yudhiṣṭhira, who has no enemy; SB 3.1.11
ajāta-śatravaḥ — inimical to none; SB 3.25.21
ajāta — not arisen; SB 3.30.14
ajāta-pakṣāḥ — who have not yet grown wings; SB 6.11.26
ajāta-viklavaḥ — not afraid; SB 6.12.3
ajāta-śatrave — Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, who had no enemy; SB 7.1.13
ajāta-pakṣān — who have not grown wings to fly; SB 7.2.55
ajāta-janma-sthiti-saṃyamāya — unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is never born but whose appearance in different incarnations never ceases; SB 8.6.8
ajāta-śatruḥ — King Yudhiṣṭhira, whose enemy was never born; SB 10.71.23
ajāta-śatrave — to Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja, whose enemy was never born; SB 10.72.14
ajāta-śatroḥ — of Yudhiṣṭhira, whose enemy was never born; SB 10.75.1-2
ajāta-śatruḥ — King Yudhiṣṭhira; SB 10.75.39
ajāta — who has not developed; SB 11.8.29
ajāta-śatruḥ — King Yudhiṣṭhira, who considered no one his enemy; SB 11.19.11
ajāta-śatravaḥ — without enemies; CC Madhya 22.81
jāta-ajāta-rati-bhede — by distinction of mature love and immature love; CC Madhya 24.288
ajāta-rati sādhaka-bhakta — immature devotees engaged in devotional service; CC Madhya 24.291

vinodks
December 12th, 2006, 10:27 AM
Laxman ji, Could you please tell us which linguistic rules say that.

Also plz provide proofs of name Haryana in Vedic scriptures and reference of this post.

Geographically, this land was called kurushetra, which was a country rather than city, land of kurus
east of which -panchala, land of panchals
south of which- madhyadesha, matsya, srinjaya
north(punjab) of which- turghna
west of which- bharata also iritsu

name haryana may have occured but as symbolic meaning as green land, although I would be glad to hear that if there are proofs...

-vinod



All these are still Jat villages. In ancient times these were included in [B]Haryana. Haryana is nothing but Aryana. Here H is absent which is not un common as we speak Hospital as Aspatal in Hindi and Urdu. It is due to linguistic variations.

Thus Aryans were Jats inhabiting ancient Haryana and at the same time their another branch was at Iran which is also known as Aryana. The similarity of many common places and rivers proves this.

narenderkharb
December 12th, 2006, 11:39 AM
Problem comes when we apply too much imgination and become less self-critic...
-vinod

Vinod

I wish we can see a post from you with a better start than as usual starting accusations...

now I said about parthian Jats theory and possible ajatsatru title significance...

I gave some supporting arguments ..

Did you go through them ?

Was they mere imagination ?was their any denial of self criticims?

If therewas no self critism or otherwise involved than what was relevance of unnecessary remarks,

Now I gave possible reasons about Ajatsatru title which we also say mere title.

You asy that it was a meaning something else...

How ...what is your reasoning ,how solid ,let us see...

Ajatsatru you say has its base from Dhatu jata

Now you and me or other have read hindi and some sanskrit also ..
Can you tell me a meaning of jata in hindi or sanskrit...
pls try to put that meaning and try to come to conclusion...
And yes try to find a meaning that is used, not a hypothetical or imaginary meaning of some vedams or voice of dharma or similar sites and even if you find that try to fit that here without using your imagination skills also.

Let us see how solid your explanations are????

narenderkharb
December 12th, 2006, 12:00 PM
...................

vinodks
December 12th, 2006, 12:20 PM
The meaning posted by me is correct as per sanskrit dictionary and Gita shalokas... it would be profitable for all of us to agree on such reliable proofs and move ahead with next stage rather than arguing on this... people are free to give whatever meaning they wish to give to ajatshatru, but I would go ahead with usual, traditional and commonsense meaning as was given in the link... Ajatshatru is not critical to history of jats anyway and it came up because of tewatia ji's habit of "thinking aloud" in the forum... meaning of jata is SOLID as was given in the link...
Similarly there is no scope of argument regarding Kurushtera and Haryana... lets talk something else if there is...

-vinod


Vinod

I wish we can see a post from you with a better start than as usual starting accusations...

now I said about parthian Jats theory and possible ajatsatru title significance...

I gave some supporting arguments ..

Did you go through them ?

Was they mere imagination ?was their any denial of self criticims?

If therewas no self critism or otherwise involved than what was relevance of unnecessary remarks,

Now I gave possible reasons about Ajatsatru title which we also say mere title.

You asy that it was a meaning something else...

How ...what is your reasoning ,how solid ,let us see...

Ajatsatru you say has its base from Dhatu jata

Now you and me or other have read hindi and some sanskrit also ..
Can you tell me a meaning of jata in hindi or sanskrit...
pls try to put that meaning and try to come to conclusion...
And yes try to find a meaning that is used, not a hypothetical or imaginary meaning of some vedams or voice of dharma or similar sites and even if you find that try to fit that here without using your imagination skills also.

Let us see how solid your explanations are????

narenderkharb
December 12th, 2006, 02:20 PM
.................

sktewatia
December 12th, 2006, 04:24 PM
Any 12th class book or any usual and traditional book mentions that India was Aryanised by Aryans from North-West India. By my commonsense I'm saying that India was Jatised by Jats from North-West. I find more weightage in it because till today more Jat/Got exists in North-West India and rest of India also as compared to Aryan.

I've never seen any Aryan in my life in North-West India except for some Arya Samaji people who write Arya. Similarly in rest of India no Aryan, I've met.

While Aryan phase was temporary. This Jat/Got phase was more durable and widespread.

Dahiya's use of Jat/Sujat for Jat is not in liberal sense. Its correct and he is serious.

arunshamli
December 12th, 2006, 04:36 PM
Five villages demanded by Pandavas
Mahabharata tells that When Pandavas were defeated in chausar they were forced to leave the state for 13 years. During most of this time, they lived at place called Varnavata (modern Bairat) in Jaipur district in Rajasthan.



Burdak ji There is a village name Barnava in Meerut district and it is believed that it the same place which is called varnavat in Mahabharat. yahi pe lakh ka mahal banaya gaya thaa, the remains of the lakha palace are still found there.

please follow the link for more detail about the place
http://www.baghpat.com/pages/barnava.htm
http://www.baghpat.com/pages/lakshagrah.htm

and now you are saying that old varnavat is in Jaipur district. ye baat kuch samajh me nahi hai.

sktewatia
December 12th, 2006, 04:51 PM
Similarly, any 12th class book of history say NCERT mentions six reasons of supremacy of Magadh as compared to other Mahajanpadas, like Kashi, Kausal, Ayodhya, Avanti etc. Like more elephants, proximity to iron ores, strategic location of Rajgrih or Patliputra, ambitious rulers, fertile land, good rain fall etc. etc. But the most important in these is given that people and tribes around Magadh were recently hinduised and hence they were more enthusiatic. Now, this last word can not be digested by my commonsense as hindu word itself originated after Arabs came to India i.e. after 12-13 centuries later. I'd call this word also Jatised only. This phenomenon of Hinduisation/Jatisation was continuing in the times of Ajatshatru. I do know the meaning of Ajatshatru as given in traditional books. We are sitting here to oppose traditional books only regarding Jat history.


Burdak ji There is a village name Barnava in Meerut district and it is believed that it the same place which is called varnavat in Mahabharat. yahi pe lakh ka mahal banaya gaya thaa, the remains of the lakha palace are still found there.

please follow the link for more detail about the place
http://www.baghpat.com/pages/barnava.htm
http://www.baghpat.com/pages/lakshagrah.htm

and now you are saying that old varnavat is in Jaipur district. ye baat kuch samajh me nahi hai.

Baaliyan Sahbji

Burdak yhamn ppe koi jadu mantar nna lle ke baithaa. us ki aankh ka chasma itna badda koni jis me tte bbaddi duuur tuck ddikkhe. koshish kare sse. thaamm bhi karo bhai.

But good info. Aap log Jatland.com ke history channel pe aaya kariye. You are most welcome. Jat history is very easy to understand. Just move with some commonsense but with some basic knowledge of history of at least a school standard.

Plz see the spirit of Burdakji (and like wise all Jat history members here). We, really, can not expect anyone to be very precise when the whole Jat history is still in investigative stage.

Ramayana also is to be understood from this point of Jatisation. There were some people of original forests who used to oppose this. They were called Rakhshasas, in Ramayna.

When Viswamitra takes away Rama and Lakshmana, for destroying the Rakshasas, he is really taking two Jats to teach the forest people, what yagna is?

And now why these forest people are opposing him?

My commonsense says that they were going to burn their forest and their way of living. Hence, they were opposing.

jo ghar me hi arya samaj ki tarah yagna karna hota to un forest people ka kya jata tha?

sktewatia
December 12th, 2006, 09:56 PM
This Kausal/Ayodhya episode seems to be during the period of these Mahajanpadas. Mahabharat seems to be older than Ramayan.

sktewatia
December 12th, 2006, 10:19 PM
Many Iranian students were there with me who could not pronounce Jat as Jat. Unko bataya gaya ki ye Jat ke peechhe Tote wala t nahin Tata/Bidla wala t hai. Ub tum bol ke dikhao. They all failed one by one.

here people are there who can not question why Gujjar rather Goojar/Gurjar variation but do it when Jat and Jat variation is there.

Meri khopdi kharab ho gayee in dono ko alagh karte. Aakhir kaise likhen ki ye dono alagh hain.

narenderkharb
December 13th, 2006, 06:19 AM
.............

vinodks
December 13th, 2006, 09:01 AM
Jata- having born up

Ajata- not born

Ajata+Shatru= the one whose enemy hasn't born

I double checked translation of Gita shalokas from the book... meaning is right...
of course you are free not to believe....

-vinod


When you were so sure about Ajatsatru meaning why are you not able to derive that as per sanskrit and hindi grammer ,or shall I take you raise question first , read post later as usal..

Waiting for your reply.....




PS. Ajatsatru is important regarding Jat History as it testifies Jat presence though indirectly in a period where you find no mention of jats in traditional books.

Secondly the existence of a kurukshetra east and totally outside bharata is certainly questionable and has ample scope of argument.

narenderkharb
December 13th, 2006, 11:58 AM
Jata- having born up

Ajata- not born

Ajata+Shatru= the one whose enemy hasn't born

I double checked translation of Gita shalokas from the book... meaning is right...
of course you are free not to believe....

-vinod

As per the request of members this discussion is wrong in this thread so I am deleting ,let us try in proper thread.

My point was SANDHI OF ajata and shatru ie Ajata +satru = ajatasatru ,as per grammer rule not ajatsatru

and secondly adjective (Ajat ) should always specify noun (satru)as per grammer rule ie meaning should be an enemy that has not been born not it should refer to a third person whose enemy has not been born . However title like ajatsatru enemy of ajats put no gramatical problem and such titles DENOTING ENEMITY TO SOME GROUP has been used by rulers like Hunharin, saka +ARI =sakari ,Rudardaman....etc ,This is what I can deduce as per grammer rule,any way it can be done in seprate thread,also Haryana outside Bharat as suggested by you just looks fiction not reasonable argument.

arunshamli
December 13th, 2006, 03:49 PM
************************

sktewatia
December 13th, 2006, 08:28 PM
However, the thread is on "Jat in Indian Epics"

so better lets all Jats focus on this issue.

in my opinion Ramayan and Mahabharat are the two greatest epics.

lets name others also.

lets move with common sense and lets be traditional, or lets not be traditional, whichever way suits the commonsense.

sktewatia
December 13th, 2006, 11:05 PM
what is the meaning of yagna? the yagya. the yajya.
was it just like burning a few sticks in ghee as arya samajis do in a closed room or hall?

by the way I'm staunchest arya samaji.

my common sense says that it was burning of forests or clearing them after iron was invented by Jats.

what was maha yagya? I suppose it was clearing of big forests to practise agriculture to create surplus grains to maintain huge armies, as much as Alexander turned back fearing these cool and calm armies, of Nandas, the Nandal Jats.

Otherwise else the counter question is there, what yagna was according to the grammer/history?

and according to all the grammers Jat itself was born and others fell from Mars/Aero-plane.

grammers define Jat: jis ki jati maaloom na ho
grammers define Jat: jo ki gyat ya agyat ho
traditional meanings define jat jo ki surajmal ke time pe paida hua ho aur nahar singh to marna bhi kahin door shaayad paida hi na hua ho?

n e way I thank Burdakji, for taking pains, to start such threads, like Jats in maharashtra, orissa, mp, south india, etc.

but in single stroke, the reason was Jatisation. No logic can deny it.

wherever Indo-european language is found, Jat has to be found there in near or distant past.

Janak of Mithla himself praticed agriculture i.e. Hull. Sita was born from....
Why and what was these agriculturist Jats were doing there, in these Mahajanpadas?

aur ek ye bhi research ka vishay hai ki jitne bhi meaning in Ajatshatruon ne adopt kiye ye saare hi Jat rahe honge.

Like Yudhithilla, the gotta, ruling over Indpatt.

vinodks
December 14th, 2006, 07:50 AM
Aap harek thread ka satyanash kar dete hein... sometimes your incoherent posts are humorous, but most of the times they are irritating... instead of writing oneliners every other minute, plz write all of them together, so that they dont clatter threads... plz.

-vinod



aur ek ye bhi research ka vishay hai ki jitne bhi meaning in Ajatshatruon ne adopt kiye ye saare hi Jat rahe honge.

Like Yudhithilla, the gotta, ruling over Indpatt.

amitrajora
December 14th, 2006, 08:20 AM
There is a line in a song from the movie " Rangeela " starring the desirable Urmila Matondkar and cocky Aamir Khan :

" DUNIYA BOLEY TO MAZAA HAI, NAA KAHO KHUD KO RAJA "

I hope that makes sense to the eminent historians on this forum.

smeker
December 14th, 2006, 05:34 PM
what is the meaning of yagna? the yagya. the yajya.
was it just like burning a few sticks in ghee as arya samajis do in a closed room or hall?

by the way I'm staunchest arya samaji.

my common sense says that it was burning of forests or clearing them after iron was invented by Jats.

what was maha yagya? I suppose it was clearing of big forests to practise agriculture to create surplus grains to maintain huge armies, as much as Alexander turned back fearing these cool and calm armies, of Nandas, the Nandal Jats.

Otherwise else the counter question is there, what yagna was according to the grammer/history?

and according to all the grammers Jat itself was born and others fell from Mars/Aero-plane.
Cool and calm armies.:D
You make fire sacrifice Tewatia ji?

vinodks
December 14th, 2006, 10:23 PM
Bus asse comments ki hi kammi thi... pahle se hi Jaton se purvajo ne apni history ka bahut khyaal rakha hai aur ab jo thode bahut log interested hain unko asse item log chain nahi lene denge...
If you can add anything relevent to the thread plz do otherwise save these wisecracks for somethign else. Yahan koi raja/mantri nahi banane aata. Everyone is trying to understand history out of curiosity and arguments are integral part of discussions.

-vinod


There is a line in a song from the movie " Rangeela " starring the desirable Urmila Matondkar and cocky Aamir Khan :

"DUNIYA BOLEY TO MAZAA HAI, NAA KAHO KHUD KO RAJA "

I hope that makes sense to the eminent historians on this forum.

sktewatia
December 14th, 2006, 11:51 PM
Ramayna story is nothing but its compacting family system of Jats in the age of Mahajanpadas. Jats till today all over the world are having biggest families and relations through the full calculations of gots etc. Its a story when people living in thick jungles around Ganges were being braught into the fold of Jatisation/Aryanisation. Jats were mixing with them. And sometimes wide opposition was there. Somewhat similar situation what prevails in seven sister states today was there. When we hear of King Janak of Mithla ploughing the land himself (with Gold Hull), it does mean that the land has been recently cleared for agriculture by burning the forest by mahayagna, and Jats are practicing agriculture there. During practicing of agriculture as was the fold of Jats, their got and family system was being taught to local tribes there. Similar way Jat (Indo-European) languages were taught to them.

vijay
December 15th, 2006, 12:12 AM
Tewatia Sir, Vinod Bhai,

History section at jatland is only section where i always see some serious and constructive discussion otherwise in other sections members just try to pull one another's legs only. I know you both are mature enough and plz just stick to the subject what you are discussing. I can't participate here as i don't know history in such depth that you guys are discussing but everyday i read your posts for sure and try to update my knowledge about our history.

Lets come out with some positive conclusion after the discussion.:)

Hope you won't mind. :)

smeker
December 15th, 2006, 09:52 AM
Tewatia Sir, Vinod Bhai,

History section at jatland is only legs only. I know you both are mature enough and plz just stick to the subject what you are discussing. I can't participate here as i don't know history in such depth that you guys are discussing but everyday i read your posts for sure and try to update my knowledge about our history.

Lets come out with some positive conclusion after the discussion.:)

Hope you won't mind. :)
Exactly:) Peace;)

amitrajora
December 15th, 2006, 02:08 PM
Bus asse comments ki hi kammi thi... pahle se hi Jaton se purvajo ne apni history ka bahut khyaal rakha hai aur ab jo thode bahut log interested hain unko asse item log chain nahi lene denge...
If you can add anything relevent to the thread plz do otherwise save these wisecracks for somethign else. Yahan koi raja/mantri nahi banane aata. Everyone is trying to understand history out of curiosity and arguments are integral part of discussions.

-vinod

I apologise for my light hearted remark. However, my intention was to have some objective analysis. What I have seen here on this forum is that many of us have decided the end result first and are then gathering "facts" to support the so called hypothesis. Myths and fairytales are being taken as serious references. Allegations such as " The reports on studies on skulls were not made public" are voiced. I would love to have some solid hard evidence to support that. There are many good lawyers available in our community who could follow up why the report, if it existed ,was hushed up.

DNA analysis is a tool available these days for a reasonable amount of money. Could we have some DNA studies to back up our hypotheses ? let us not go by names and the language one speaks. For example one of our ex prime ministers could speak nine languages.Names are also not a reliable source of ancestory.

Ancient (and modern too) India was a melting pot in the true sense of the word.People were migrating from one place to another for n number of reasons.It really seems incredible that a group of people retained large fertile land holdings in a very important part of India for nearly upto 5000 years !!!( I read somewhere on this forum 3012 BC)

I hope I am not asking for too much. By the way I am not an historian or even a student of history.

ravichaudhary
December 15th, 2006, 09:41 PM
There is nothing wrong with a heated discussion. We call it a debate.

The idea is for people to explore and test the limits of the theories they propound.

In that way, as any scientific researcher knows, a critical review takes place, and a theory is proven or disproven.

This discussion should be taken in the same spirit.

As for, going by what “ duniya’ says, we Jats have a problem, that this ‘ duniya’ does not seem to know anything about our history, or when it does claim some knowledge, it is expressed in denigratory or derogatory terms .

The efforts by our historians, veteran or budding, have to be seen in that light.

Our research will go often against what the ‘ duniya’ thinks.

Once upon a time, in the West’ the duniya’ used to think the world was flat. The ‘ duniya’ now thinks the world is round. Scientific proof was rejected for the longest time, but was ultimately accepted. As an aside, the proof the world was round was already known to Indian astronomers, thousands of years ago. Why were these proofs rejcyted then, and even now.

An inclination to prejudice and dogma in the ‘duniya’ did not allow ‘facts’ to prevail.

If the Jats do not wish their history to be recorded or propagated, they deserve what the “duniya” says.

At the same time, most of us are beginners, and have no clue about our history and culture. There is nothing wrong with that.

That is only to be expected, as our educational systems had been wiped out, and our store, our archives of knowledge and history, had been burnt to the ground.

Here we are trying to reconstruct our history.

There will be many dead ends, many blind alleys that we will go down, in our path to reconstruction.

That should not deter us.


Our efforts are to reconstruct our history and change what ‘ duniya’; thinks.

Please try and encourage those who wish to explore our history, rather than discourage them.


Ravi Chaudhary

ravichaudhary
December 15th, 2006, 09:58 PM
I apologise for. Allegations such as
? let us not go by names and the language one speaks. For example one of our ex prime ministers could speak nine languages.Names are also not a reliable source of ancestory.

Ancient (and modern too).People were migrating from one place to another for n number of reasons. ars !!!( I read somewhere on this forum 3012 BC)

I hope I am not asking for too much. By the way I am not an historian or even a student of history.


Amit

With respect you are asking for a bit much.

Could I gently take you to task, with your permission?

You write:

1. “ What I have seen here on this forum is that many of us have decided the end result first and are then gathering "facts" to support the so called hypothesis.”


2. “Myths and fairytales are being taken as serious references”

Request> Can you substantiate that?

3. " The reports on studies on skulls were not made public" are voiced. I would love to have some solid hard evidence to support that. There are many good lawyers available in our community who could follow up why the report, if it existed ,was hushed up.”


Request> Do you know any lawyer who will help?

4 “ DNA analysis is a tool available these days for a reasonable amount of money. Could we have some DNA studies to back up our hypotheses”.

Request> where do we start and how? Besides how do DNA studies, address cultural and linguistic issues?.


5.’ India was a melting pot in the true sense of the word’

Question Was it? One could argue otherwise too. Look at the vast differences between the people of Punjab and for example Nagaland, or Mizoram?


6.”. It really seems incredible that a group of people retained large fertile land holdings in a very important part of India for nearly upto 5000 years?”


Response> doesn’t it?

Now this proposition can be explored in depth. Are they the same people, same genes, same culture or did things change, and if so what?

Amit and others, one hopes we see the kind of problems that can get thrown up.

As for not being a student of history, as soon as one takes an interest in History, one becomes a student.Welcome to the fraternity.

Hiow far will that interest take one, is upto the individual.The rest of us can and will help.

If anyone wished to discuss these aspects, please start another thread.

Please let the current one be.


Ravi Chaudhary

sktewatia
December 15th, 2006, 11:09 PM
Jat and Jat are same. they just can not be distinguished

smeker
December 16th, 2006, 12:00 AM
Jat and Jat are same. they just can not be distinguished
they are indentical like identical twins.

sktewatia
December 17th, 2006, 10:18 PM
they are indentical like identical twins.

like Ramayna and Mahabharta?

they are also like identical twins that Jats gave to this world?

smeker
December 18th, 2006, 12:12 AM
like Ramayna and Mahabharta?

they are also like identical twins that Jats gave to this world?
i dont know if Ramayana or Mahabharata are identical but are more complementary to each other.Were the action of these books is happend?:)

sktewatia
December 22nd, 2006, 10:06 PM
Idumm Jatvedse indunn mummumm.
Idumm Agnaye idunn mummumm.
Idumm somaye idunn mummum.

vinodks
December 23rd, 2006, 12:24 AM
Tewatia ji, is it some puzzle? Kabhi to hosh-havaas mein likha karo.

My guess is this is some part of some hymn from Rgveda. And another guess is you mean to highlight Jatvedse has something to do with Jat. Jatvedse/Jatvedah word is frequently referred to in RV(atleast 20times) and Gita. E.g. one such verse is

3.1.20 http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rvsan/rv03001.htm

महान्ति वर्ष्णे सवना कर्तेमा जन्मञ-जन्मन निहितो जातवेदाः ||
जन्मञ-जन्मन निहितो जातवेदा विश्वामित्रेभिरिध्यते अजस्रः |

which means-

[To thee who art of old these songs, O Agni, have I declared, the ancient and the later. These great libations to the Strong are offered: in every birth is Jatavedas stablished.

Stablished in every birth is Jatavedas, kindled perpetual by the Visvamitras. May we rest ever in the loving-kindness, in the auspicious grace of him the Holy.]

Whats is Jatvedah? as per lexicon http://www.vedabase.net/j/jata

jāta-vedaḥ — from which all the devotee's desires are fulfilled; SB 5.7.14

jāta-vedasam — a fire covered by ashes in Vedic ritualistic ceremonies; SB 5.10.5

jāta-vedaḥ — O fire-god; SB 5.20.17

jāta-vedāḥ — the producer of wealth or of all necessities of life; SB 8.5.35

jāta-vedāḥ — meant for material enjoyment according to the Vedic principles; SB 9.14.46

jāta-vedāḥ — fire personified; SB 10.10.28

Meaning changes with respect to context, even though sanskrit rules are inherently context-free http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Context-free_grammar

'Indun' has to do with moon, 'idam' of course means 'this'... I dont know what this piece of verse means though...
People have done careless scanning of vedic texts with desire to hunt down Jat word... but it wont yield much... as we discussed before jat history should go beyond Jat word... history of people, their habbits, culture and custom rather than literal similar sounding names... thats also is important aspect but with carefulness...


Jatvedah has nothing to do with JAT... well, as per this sources...

-vinod



Idumm Jatvedse indunn mummumm.
Idumm Agnaye idunn mummumm.
Idumm somaye idunn mummum.

smeker
December 26th, 2006, 10:03 PM
Genetic clusters ,show who is similar whit who
http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=61

vinodks
December 27th, 2006, 12:35 AM
Those who are interested can subscribe to online journal or read it online... its free.

http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs/issues.html

-vinod

vijay
December 27th, 2006, 07:12 AM
Idumm Jatvedse indunn mummumm.
Idumm Agnaye idunn mummumm.
Idumm somaye idunn mummum.

Ye Sanskrit hai !

Agni Dev, Som Dev aur Jats jo vedon mein likha hai !

Am i wrong Tewatia Sir ?

amitrajora
December 29th, 2006, 12:52 PM
Genetic clusters ,show who is similar whit who
http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=61

Could you please quote the source of that picture ?
Thanks in advance !!!!

amitrajora
December 29th, 2006, 12:56 PM
Amit



Ravi Chaudhary

Ravi Ji,

Thank you for your responses. Could you please point to the evidence for the skull report ? Please pardon my ignorance.
Thanks in advance.

smeker
December 29th, 2006, 06:56 PM
Could you please quote the source of that picture ?
Thanks in advance !!!!
http://manollasa.blogspot.com/2006/12/what-is-our-race.html

ravichaudhary
December 29th, 2006, 09:30 PM
Ravi Ji,

Thank you for your responses. Could you please point to the evidence for the skull report ? Please pardon my ignorance.
Thanks in advance.


I am unware of any 'skull report'.


Ravi Chaudhary

sktewatia
December 30th, 2006, 09:22 PM
Ye Sanskrit hai !

Agni Dev, Som Dev aur Jats jo vedon mein likha hai !

Am i wrong Tewatia Sir ?

A few dialects of Jats were grammarised/systematised/sanskritised. Sanskrit word itself means systematic. Vedas Sanskrit is different from Panini's. While Aryan may be a fiction but Jat is reality. Throughout in any written or well known history or in any inscription, Aryan word is rarely found. Its we Jats who created vedas/aryans and all those meanings; and its not otherway round. Vaise bhi sruti ke bad lipi to samajh aati hai lekin lipi ke bad shruti samajh nahin aati.

sktewatia
December 31st, 2006, 07:15 AM
The thread was on the topic "Jats in Indian Epics". Soka was on one extreme to deny the existence of Mahabharta/Ramayana etc. But my opinion is Dhuan utha hai to aag bhi kahin hogi. means if smoke is there fire has has to be somewhere. Ramayana, Mahabharat, Veda, Purana, Gita, Chandragomin, Panini etc. did happen. They kept revised from time to time, so may not be in their original form. They all do mention Jat/Gots in their own ways like Puranas mention Nanda's/Mauryas etc. as Sudra rulers. Alberuni mentions Krishna as low sudra Jut family. However, its upto our investigative efforts with commonsense and little knowledge of history to decifer them from there. Blindly moving with tradional meanings will fetch us nothing new. It will be another modern Ramayana where Rama, the God, conquers Lanka with the help of Bhalu/Bandars/Jatayu (Bear/monkeys/birds) etc. But I feel that they were as human as Rama himself was. As many clans of Jats resemble animals and birds so epics depict them like this.

My opinion of relating Jat with Jat also should not be misunderstood. Also I'm not the first person to do so among Jats. Jat's Got system is still the best and most scientific out breeding system in the world. This system is still practiced in its best sense among all the Jats from Ganges to Indus irrespective of their religions. I was and I'm well aware of the hindi/sanskrit/braj meaning of Jat, one of them is "born". Even if at all this meaning is also applied to Jat then also it should be in the sense of got and his marriage rules. Jats got or Jat's Jat or Jat's Jati is well decided by his birth whatever profession he adopts. In fact Jat's Jat is nothing but his got only.

Various Jats who seperated from Jats or Gots were like Gujars from Badgujar Jats, Heers (Aheer/Yadav) from Heer Jats, Minas from Minhas Jats, Marathi from Maha-Rathi Jats, Odiya from Odrann, Agrawal from Grewal, Mali from Mali/Malhi, Khatri from Khatri, Rode/Arode from Rode, Bannu from Bana etc. etc. While seperating from Jats they seperated on equality as Jats only. Simply because some got was dominant or in power in some region, so other Jats/Gots also came to be known after that got in that particular area. Numerous Jats/Gots originated from Jats/Gots, but never on the basis of profession as Pandit, Kshatriya, Vaisya, Sudra etc. For example Khatri's today are predominantly Businessmen and not predominantly fighters.

Budhism rose for a noble cause. But later corrupt practices sneaked into it. Thats not the fault of Budha. Similarly if corrupt practices sneaked into Jat system elsewhere thats not the fault of Jat/Got.

lrburdak
December 31st, 2006, 10:05 PM
Bhadrakali (IAST: Bhadrakālī, Devanagari: भद्रकाली) , also known as the gentle Kali, is generally an auspicious form of the goddess Kali, and the legend states that she came into being by Devi’s wrath, when Daksha insulted Shiva. It is believed that Bhadrakāli was a local deity, which was assimilated into the mainstream Hinduism, particularly into Shaiva mythology. Sometimes, she assumes terrible aspect, and is represented with three eyes, and four, twelve or eighteen hands. She carries a number of weapons, with flames flowing from her head, and a small tusk protruding from her mouth. She is the consort of Virabhadra. [1]

History

The historian Ram Swarup Joon has given the chronology of Virabhadra, obtained from the records of the Bards of Dholpur, in his book ‘History of the Jats’ (1938, 1967) as under: [2]

In the branch of Puru there was ‘Sanyati’ whose son was Virabhadra. Virabhadra had four sons 1. Pon Bhadra 2. Kalhan bhadra 3. Atisur Bhadra and 4. Jakh Bhadra.

Pon Bhadra is the originator of Punia gotra.

Kalhan Bhadra is the originator of Kalhan gotra.

Atisur Bhadra had Ajanta Jata Shankar and his son Dahi Bhadra in the lineage. Dahi Bhadra is the originator of Dahiya gotra.

Jakh Bhadra is the originator of Jakhar gotra.

According to Ram Swaroop Joon, the descendants of above spread as under:

(a) Pon Bhadra’s descendants Punias to Haryana, Brij, and Gwalior

(b) Kalhan Bhadra’s descendants Kalhans to Kathiawar and Gujrat.

(c) Atisur Bhadra’s descendants to Malwa

(d) Jakh Bhadra’s descendants Jakhars to Punjab and Kashmir

(e) Dahi Bhadra’s descendants Dahiyas to Punjab and Central Asia

Temples of Bhadrakali

It is clear from the above chronology that some descendants of Virabhadra have moved to Malwa and Gujarat. There must be some traces left in these areas. We find The traces of their migration in the form of temples of Bhadrakali in Ahmedabad (Gujarat) and in Malwa near Ratlam. The historian PN Oak has revealed that one densely populated area of Ahmedabad is known as 'Bhadra'. Bhadra is a sanskrat name. This Bhadra area is having a number of mosques. PN Oak has revealed that the Jama-masjid of Bhadra area in Ahmedabad was earlier a temple of Bhadrakali diety, which was converted to masjid. Bhadrakali was the primeval diety of this city. He proved, through number of articles published in 1964-65, that so called Jama-masjid of Ahmedabad (Karnavati or Rajnagar) was the temple of city and royal diety Bhadrakali. [3]

We also find the temple of Bhadrakali at place called Bajna at a distance of 36 km from Ratlam city in Malwa region. This Bhadrakali temple is of the period of Parmara rulers and known as Garhkhankhai mataji. This temple is situated in dense forested area of the valley at the sangam of Karan river and Mahi river. Raja Bhoj had constructed this temple. This place is also recognized as shaktipitha in India. The excavations at this site has produced Shiva in yoga pose, Lakshami, Gajasursanhar, Surya and Nataraja's rare idols. The world famous 'Tripurasundari ma' temple at a distance of 60 km from this place is situated at village Talwara in Banswara district in Rajasthan. An inscription of 1540 AD found here reveals that this temple was constructed prior to the rule of Kanishka. Some people believe it to be constructed before 3rd century AD. There was a very ancient place here known as 'Garhpoli' which is called as Umarai at present. Excavations in 1982 at this place have produced idols of Shiva with Parvati on his thigh. Ganesha and Kartikeya are seated on both sides.[4]

Reference
1.↑ Dictionary of Hindu Lore and Legend (ISBN 0-500-51088-1) by Anna Dallapiccola
2.↑ RS Joon: History of the Jats’ (1938, 1967)
3.↑ PN Oak: Some blunders of Indian Historical Research
4.↑ Amit Nigam: Ratlam ki Tripura sundari, Democratic World, 28 December 2006

sktewatia
January 1st, 2007, 08:28 PM
Why Jat is called Sujat? Why Jat/Sujat is same in rigveda? Because Jat is better born. All are born but Jat is better born according to some fixed marriage rules.

saranrabar
February 4th, 2007, 11:33 AM
Meaning of gana

The meaning of Gana in Sanskrit is given by Monier Williams's dictionary as "flock, troop, multitude, number, tribe, series, class", adding that it can also be used to refer to a "body of attendants". It also defines Gana as "a company, any assemblage or association of men formed for the attainment of the same aims". [3]

Ganas as Shiva's attendants

The mention of ganas is in the form of attendants of Shiva in the story of creation of Virabhadra and destruction of Daksha in Hindu mythology. One day Daksha made arrangements for a great horse sacrifice, and invited all the gods omitting only Shiva. Shiva's first wife was Sati and daughter of Daksha Prajapati. Sati, being greatly humiliated, went to the banquet and Sati released the inward consuming fire and fell dead at Daksha's feet. Narada bore this news to Shiva. Shiva burned with anger, created Vīrabhadra who bowed at Shiva's feet and asked his will. [4]

Shiva directed Virabhadra: "Lead my army against Daksha and destroy his sacrifice; fear not the Brahmanas, for thou art a portion of my very self". On this direction of Shiva, Virabhadra appeared with Shiva's ganas in the midst of Daksha's assembly like a storm wind and broke the sacrificial vessels, polluted the offerings, insulted the priests and finally cut off Daksha's head, trampled on Indra, broke the staff of Yama, scattered the gods on every side; the he returned to Kailash. [5]


The above story of creation of Virabhadra from the Shiva’s lock and destruction of Daksha by Virabhadra and his ganas is mythical and not scientifically possible but has some historical facts in it. Thakur Deshraj has explained that there was a clan of Jats named Shivi who had a republic ruled by democratic system of administration known as ganatantra. Kshudrakas had formed a sangha with Malavas. Shivis formed a sangha with a big federation or sangha known as Jat, which is clear from Paninis shloka in grammar of Astādhyāyī given below. [6]

The historian Ram Swaroop Joon explains that Shiva lived in Gangotri Hills which, due to Shiva's popularity, came to be known as Shiva's Jata. The mountain ranges in that area is now known as Shivaliks. Raja Virabhadra of the Puru dynasty was the ruler of 'Talkhapur' near Haridwar, which also formed part of the area known as 'Shiv ki Jata'. [7]

This is the area around Haridwar. King Bhagiratha brought the Ganga to the plains in this region. According to legend the Ganga flows out from Shiva's Jata. Actually this also means that the Ganga flows out from the area known as 'Shiv ki Jata', the birthplace of the Jat Raja Virabhadra who was a follower and admirer of Shiva. On hearing of Sati's tragedy, Shiva went to the durbar of Virabhadra and pulled at his hair in fury while narrating the story. This infuriated Virabhadra and with his army, are invaded Kankhal and killed Daksha. [8]

Ganas in Sanskrit literature

In Panini's Astādhyāyī

Many books of Sanskrit literature have used ganas and sanghas frequently. The famous Sanskrit scholar Panini of 900 BCE has mentioned in his Sanskrit grammar known as Astādhyāyī in the form of shloka as जट झट संघाते or Jat Jhat Sanghate. This means that the terms 'Jat' and 'democratic federation' are synonymous.[6]

Panini in his grammar used gana as:

संघोद्घौ गण प्रशंसयो Sanghoddhau gana praśansayo

In Narada smriti

Narada smriti mentions as:

आदि शब्दों गण संघादि समूह विपक्षया Ādi śabdon gaṇa sanghadi samūh vipakshayā

It shows that the ganatantra (republic) system of rule was prevalent in India since ancient period.




In Shanti Parva

A detailed analysis has been done about ganas in chapter 107 of Shanti Parva in which Yudhisthira asks Bhisma about the ganas that how ganas increase, how they defend themselves from the dividing-policy of enemies, what are the techniques to conquer enemies and making the ganas friends, how they hide their secret mantras being in majority. The Bhisma’s answers to these questions have been recorded in the form of shlokas (verses) from 16 – 32 in Shanti Parva. [6]

In Vedas

Ganas have been narrated in Vedas in the form of assemblies of warriors as is clear from the following sutras if Rigveda (RV 3-26-6): [6]

व्रातं व्रातं गणम् गणम् Vrātam Vrātam ganam ganam

Gana in brief means an assembly. Ganatantra (republic) means a state run by assemblies.

The representative members of clans were known as ganas and their assembly as sanghas, there chief as ganadhipati or Ganesha and Ganapati.

[edit]Ganas in Buddhist literature
The Buddhist literature Mahabagga mentions that:

गण पूरकोवा भविस्सामीति Gana pūrkovā bhavissāmīti

It indicates that there was an officer who used to see the number of ganas and their koram in the Rajasabha (state assembly).[6]

During Buddhist period, the Buddhist books like 'Pali-pitaka', 'Majjhamnikaya', 'Mahabagga', 'Avadana shataka' have mentioned ganas and sanghas many times. During Buddhas period there were 116 republics or ganasanghas in India.

In Buddhist times, Ganas were assemblies of the Sanghas, early democratic republics known as Gana-rājyas, literally "rule of the assembly", a term paralleling democracy (demo-kratia) or Soviet republic. The term was revived in Bhārata Ganarājya, the official name of the Republic of India.

References

1.↑ Dictionary of Hindu Lore and Legend (ISBN 0-500-51088-1) by Anna L. Dallapiccola
2.↑ 2.0 2.1 Dr Mahendra Singh Arya, Dharmpal Singh Dudi, Kishan Singh Faujdar & Vijendra Singh Narwar: Adhunik Jat Itihasa (The modern history of Jats), Agra 1998
3.↑ Monier-Williams Sanskrit-English Dictionary
4.↑ Sister Nivedita & Ananda K.Coomaraswamy: Myths and Legends of the Hindus and Bhuddhists, Kolkata, 2001 ISBN 81-7505-197-3
5.↑ Sister Nivedita & Ananda K.Coomaraswamy: Myths and Legends of the Hindus and Bhuddhists, Kolkata, 2001 ISBN 81-7505-197-3
6.↑ 6.0 6.1 6.2 6.3 6.4 Thakur Deshraj, Jat Itihas (Hindi), Maharaja Suraj Mal Smarak Shiksha Sansthan, Delhi, 1934, 2nd edition 1992 page 87-88.
7.↑ Ram Swaroop Joon: History of the Jats (1938, 1967)
8.↑ Ram Swaroop Joon: History of the Jats (1938, 1967)

I like all of your posts: you are very methodical and logic! Thank you!

lrburdak
March 2nd, 2007, 09:02 AM
Hathigumpha inscription consists of seventeen lines incised in deep cut Brahmi letters of the 1st Century BC on the overhanging brow of a natural cavern called Hathigumpha in the southern side of the Udayagiri hill near Bhubaneswar in Orissa. It faces straight towards the rock Edicts of Asoka at Dhauli situated at a distance of about six miles. Alexander Cunningham published this inscription in 1877 in the Corpus Inscriptionum Indicarrum Vol. I. Sadananda Agrawal has prepared the text in Sanskrit, which has been published in his book Śri Khāravela, 2000, which is presented here:

Text in Sanskrit

Line 1 - •नमो अरहंतानं [।।] णमो सवसिधानं [।।] ऐरेण महाराजेन महामेघवाहनेन चेतराज वस वधनेन पसथ सुभलखलेन चतुरंतलुठन गुणउपेनेत कलिंगाधिपतिना सिरि खारवेलेन

Line 2 - पंदरस वसानि सिरि कड़ार सरीरवता कीड़िता कुमार कीड़िका [।।] ततो लेख रूप गणना ववहार विधि विसारदेन सवविजावदातेन नव वसानि योवराजं पसासितं [।।] संपुणं चतुविसति वसो तदानी वधमान सेसयो वेनाभि विजयो ततिये

Line 3[/B] - कलिंग राजवसे पुरिस युगे महाराजभिसेचनं पापुनाति [।।] अभिसित मतो च पधमेवसे वात विहत गोपुर पाकार निवेसनं पटिसंखारयति कलिंगनगरि खिवीर सितल तड़ाग पाड़ियो च वंधापयति संवुयान पटि संटपनं च

Line 4 - कारयति पनतिसाहि सतसहसेहि पकतियो च रंजयति [।।] दुतिये च वसे अचितयिता सातकनिं पछिमदिसं हय गज नर रध बहुलं दंडं पठापयति [।।] कन्हवेंणां गताय च सेनाय वितासिति असिक नगरं [।।] ततिये पुन वसे

Line 5 - गंधव वेद बुधो दप नत गीत वादित संदसनाहि उसव समाज कारापनाहि च कीड़ापयति नगरिं [।।] तथा चवुथे वसे विजाधराधिवासं अहत पुवं कलिंग पुवराज निवेसितं ..... वितध मकुट स .... निखित छत

Line 6 - भिंगारे हित रतन सापतेये सव रठिक भोजके पादे वंदा पयति [।।]पंचमे च दानी वसे नंदराज तिवस सत ओघाटितं तनसुलिय वाटा पनाडि नगरि पवेस [य] ति ... [।।] अभिसितो च [छठे] वसे राजसेयं संदंसयं तो सवकरण

Line 7 - अनुगह अनेकानि सतसहसानि विसजति पोरं जानपदं [।।] सतमं च वसे पसासतो वजिरघरवति ... स मतुक पद [पुनां] स [कुमार] ...[।।] अठमे च वसे महति सेनाय महत गोरधगिरिं

Line 8 - घाता पयिता राजगहं उपपिड़ापयति [।।] एतिनं च कंम पदान संनादेन सबत सेन वाहने विपमुचितुं मधुरं अपायातो यवनराध ... म1... यछति पलव भार

Line 9 - कपरूखे हय गज रध सह यति सवधरावास परिवेसने ... सव गहणं च कारयितुं बम्हणानं जय परिहार ददाति [।।] अरंहत [पसादाय] नवमे च वसे

Line 10 - [नगरिय कलिंग]² राजनिवासं महाविजय पासादं कारयति अठतिसाय सतसहसेहि [।।] दसमे च वसे दंड संधि साम [मयो] भरधवस पठानं मही जयनं ... कारापयति [।।] एकादसमे च वसे [सतुनं] पायातानं च मणि रतनानि उपलभते [।।]

Line 11 - कलिंग पुवराज निवेसितं पिथुडं गधवनंगलेन कासयति [।।] जनपद भावनं च तेरसवस सत कतं भिदति तमिर देह संघातं [।।] बारसमे च वसे ..... वितासयति उतरापध राजनो [ततो]

Line 12 - मागधानं च विपुल भयं जनेतो हथसं गंगाय पाययति [।।] मागधं च राजान बहसतिमितं पादे वंदापयति [।।] नंदराज नीतं कालिंगजिन संनिवेसं [कलिंग] [राज] गह रतन परिहारे हि अंग मगध वसुं च नयति [।।]

Line 13 - ...तुं जठर लखिल गोपुरानि सिहरानि निवेसयति सत विसिकनं परिहारे हि [।।] अभुत मछरियं च हथीनाव तं परिहर [उपलभते] हय हथी रतन मानिकं [।।] पंडराजा एदानि अनेकानि मुत मनिरतनानि आहारापयति इध सतस [हसानि]

Line 14 - [दखिणापथ]³ वासिनो वसीकरोति [।।] तेरसमे च वसे सुपवत कुमारी पवते अरहते (हि) पखिन संसितहि कायनिसीदियाय (...)4 राजभितिनं चिनवतानं वासासितानं पूजानुरत उवासग (खा) रवेल सिरिना जीवदेह सायिका परिखाता [।।]

Line 15 - सकत समण सुविहितानं च सवदिसानं यतिनं तपस इसिनं संघायनं अरहत निसीदिया समीपे पभारे वराकर समुथापिताहि अनेक योजनाहि ताहि पनतिसाहि सतसहसेहि सिलाहि सिहपथ रानि स [भिलासेहि]

Line 16 - पटलिक चतरे च वेड्डरिय गभे थंभे पटिथापयति पानतरिय सतसहसेहि [।।] मुरियकाल वोछिनं च चोयठि अंग संतिकं तुरियं उपादयति [।।] खेमराजा स वधराजा 5 स भिखुराजा स धमराजा पसं तो सुनं तो अनुभवंतो कलणानि

Line 17 -... गुण विसेस कुसलो सव पासंड पूजको सवदेवायतन संकार कारको अपतिहत चक वाहन बलो चकधरो गुतचको पवत चको राजसि वसुकुल विनिसितो महाविजयो राजा खारवेल सिरि [।।]••

Notes
• In the left hand margin of the first five lines are engraved two symbols : the vaddhamangala at the top and the Swastika below.

1. Sten Konow : डिमित , Jayaswal : डिमिट and Barun : सबध, out of three letters, now the middle one (म) is only visible . So in no way it can be made out as Dimita.
2. The reading is doubtful.
3. Cannot be made out. However, Dr. Sahu Suggested this word.
4. Dr. Sahu reads : यापञापकेहि. But this also seems to be incorrect.
5. Dr. Sahu reads : बढराजा. It does not seem to be correct.

•• Here is a symbol : “ Tree within railing” .

lrburdak
March 2nd, 2007, 09:06 AM
Translation in English of Hathigumpha inscription

Line 1-2 - Salutation to Arhats, salutation to all Siddhas. Ārya Mahāmeghavāhana Mahārājā Śrī Khāravela, the overlord of Kalinga, who heightens the glory of the dynasty of Cetaraja , who possesses many auspicious sign, and is gifted with qualities spreading over four quarters, and who has handsome brown complexion, played the childhood games for fifteen years.

Line 2-3 - Thereafter, being proficient in writing (लेख) coinage (रूप), arithmetic (गणना) law (Vyavahāra ) and procedure (विधि) and skilled in all arts, he ruled as the crown prince for nine years. After completion his twenty-fourth year and with the ripening of the age of minority, (he) as glorious as Vainya was crowned king in the third generation of the royal dynasty of kalinga1*.

Line 3-4 - In the very first year of his coronation ( His Majesty) caused to be repaired the gate, rampart and structures of the fort of Kalinga Nagari, which had been damaged by storm, and caused to be built flight of steps for the cool tanks and laid all gardens at the cost of thirty five hundred thousand (coins) and thus pleased all his subjects.

Line 4-5 - In the second year, without caring for Sātakarnī [His Majesty] sent to the west a large army consisting of horse, elephant, infantry and chariot, and struck terror to Asikanagara with that troop that marched upto the river Kanhavemnā*2.

Thereafter, in the third year, well versed in the Gāndharva Veda, (His Majesty) made [ Kalinga] Nagri play, as it were by arranging festivals and convivial gatherings, and organising performances of acrobatics, dance, as well as vocal and instrumental music.

Line 5-6 - Then in the fourth year, (His Majesty] .... the Vidyadhara tract, that had been established by the former kings of Kalinga and had never been crossed before3.

The Rathika and Bhojaka chiefs with their crown cast off, their umbrella and royal insignia thrown aside, and their Jewellery and wealth confiscated, were, made to pay obeisance at the feet [ of His Majesty].

Line 6-7 - And in the fifth year, [His Majesty] caused the aqueducts that had been excavated by king Nanda three hundred years before , to flow into [Kalinga] Nagri through Tanasuli.

Further, in the sixth year of his coronation (his Majesty) in order to display the regal wealth, remitted all taxes, cesses and benevolences for the urban and rural population, to the extent of many hundred thousands (of coins).

Line 7-8 - And in the seventh year of his reign [the Queen] of Vajiraghara, blessed with a son attained motherhood.

Then in the eighth year, having destroyed the strong (fort) of Gorathariri, with a mighty army [ His Majesty] oppressed Rājagrha.

Line 8-9 - Getting the tidings of all these achievements, the Yavanaraja4 who retreated to Mathura for the rescue of his army encamped there [ Surrendered]

The sage Kharavela, with the Kalpa tree burdened with foliage and with the horses, elephants and chariots......... distributed (gifts) to all houses and inns and with a view to making gifts universal gave away the spoils of victory to the Brahmanas.

Line 9-10 - And in the ninth year [His Majesty] caused to be built [in Kalinga Nagari] the Great Victory palace the royal residence at the cost of thirty eight hundred thousand (coins). Then in the tenth year, [His Majesty] the embodiment of politics, diplomacy and peace, caused [ the army] to march through Bharatavarsa5 for conquest.

Line 10-11 - And in the eleventh year [His majesty] secured jewels and precious stones from the retreating [ enemies] [His Majesty] caused to be cultivated pithunda, founded by former kings of Kalinga, with ploughs drawn by asses. Also [ His Majesty] shattered the territorial confederacy of the Tamil states having populous villages, that was existing since thirteen hundred years.

Line 11-12 - And in the twelfth year, [ His Majesty] terrorised the king of Uttarapatha by an army of hundred thousand, after that [ His Majesty] generated great fear among the people of Magadha while making the elephants and horses drink in the Ganges, [ His Majesty] made Bahasatimita, the King of Magadha, obeisance at his feet. [ His Majesty] then brought back the image of Kalinga Jina with its thrown and endowment that had been taken away by king Nanda and the jewels plundered by him (King Nanda) from the Kalinga royal palace, along with the treasures of Anga and Magadha.

Line 13 - [His Majesty] brought to submission the people of ... And in the thirteenth year upasaka Sri Kharavela a devoted worshipper of those, who used to cloth themselves in fine cloth, enjoy royal endowment and take to rainy season, retreat, excavated in the Kumari hill, where the wheel of victory had been well turned6, dwelling cells for resting of the bodies of the .... Arhats who had renounced their sustenance.

Line 14 - [His Majesty] caused to erect towers with strong and beautiful gateways at the cost of two thousand coins. [His Majesty] obtained horses, elephants and jewels losing strange and wonderful elephants and ships. The King of Pandya caused to be brought here ( capital Kalinga Nagri) various pearls, jewels and precious stones hundred thousand in number.

Line 15-16 - [As desired by] the Queen of Simhapatha, [ His Majesty] built an edifice in front of and close to the dwellings of the Arhats with thirty five hundred thousand stone slabs, raised from the best quarries and brought form a distance of many yojanas for the convenience of the honoured Sramanas and for the yatis, Tapasa, Rsis and Samghiyanas, who hailed from all directions and also set up on the pink coloured floor, pillars bedecked with emerald at a cost of one hundred and five thousand (coins)

[His Majesty] revived the Tauryatrika7 included in sixty four branches of art that had been suspended during the time of the Mauryas.

Line 16-17 - [ Thus reigns] the king of bliss, the King of prosperity the Bhiksu King and King of Dhamma, [ His Majesty] the mighty conqueror Rajarsi Sri Kharavela, the descendent of Vasu 8, the embodiment of specific qualities, the worshipper of all religious order, the repairer of all shrines of gods, he possessor of invincible armies, the upholder of law , the protector of law, and the executor of law, having seen heard and felt all that is good.

Notes

1. Lekhah, Rupa, Ganana, vavahara & vidhi have been elaborate in the subsequent chapter of this book.
2. “ Dr. Sahu and other scholars identity with river Krisna, which does not seem to hold good.
3. Of course the meaning of this sentence is not fully clear and requires elaboration.
4. The name of this king is not Visible (Pl. see text)
5. North India.
6. Refers to Mahavira’s preaching on the crest of the Udyagiri hill.
7. Performance of dance, song and concert.
8. Scholars identifies Vasu with well known Cedi King, which in not convincing.

lrburdak
March 2nd, 2007, 09:41 AM
Masikanagara or Asikanagara

It is revealed from Line-4 of the Hathigumpha inscription that Kharavela in the second year of his reign despatched a strong force comprising cavalry, elephantry, infantry and chariotry to the western quarter without caring for or bothering about Sātakarnī, and Asikanagara was frightened on its reaching the river Kanhavemṇā. Some scholars prefer to read Masikanagara instead of Asikanagara and locate it in the coastal region of Andhra Pradesh. According to Sadananda Agrawal it is not well-supported. Kanhavemṇā is commonly equated with the river Krishna coastal flowing in Andhra Pradesh. However, Krishna lies much to the south of Kalinga, and not west as averred in the epigraph (पछिमदिसं). But there is another stream flowing to the west of Kalinga in Vidarbha and known locally at present as Kanhan which flows about 17 km northwest of Nagpur and joins the river Vena (Wainganga), and it is the combined flow of these two streams that is spoken as Kanhavemṇā in our records.

The recent find of a sealing belonging to the Asikajanapada in course of intensive archaeological excavations at Adam (Nagpur district) has solved also the problem of locating Asikanagara whose king or and people became frightful at the arrival of Kharavela's army at Kanhavemṇā. In view of the evidence of a highly prosperous city unearthed at Adam, Prof AM Shastri is of the opinion that Adam itself represents the Asikanagara of Hathigumpha inscription. It is worth noting in the present context that a terracota sealing having a legend, has been discovered from Adam, situated on the right bank of the river Wainganga, which reads Asakajanapadasa (असकजनपदस).

Other minor inscriptions

Besides Hathigumpha inscription of Kharavela there are some other minor Brahmi inscriptions in the twin hillocks of Udayagiri and Khandagiri, which were deciphered earlier by Prof RD Banergy during 1915-16 (Epigraphic Indica-XIII) and BM Baraua (Indian Historical Quarterly-XIV). Sadananda Agrawal has given further clarifications about them. Those seem to be related with Jats are as under:

Manchapuri cave inscription 'B' (Lower storey), of which, text in Sanskrit is - कुमारो वडुखस लेणं

Traslation - [This is]] the cave of Prince Vadukha. Note:- On palaeographic ground Prof Banergy considers this inscription to be a little earlier than the inscription of king Kudepasiri. According to Sadananda Agrawal, Badukha seems to be the son or brother of Kudepasiri.

Tatowāgumphā inscription (Cave No -1) - The record is incised over one of the entrances to the inner chamber. The Text reads in Sanscrit as पादमुलिकस कुसुमस लेणं x [।।]

Translation: The cave of Kusuma, the padamulika. Notes:- There is a syllable after the word lenam, which may be read as ni or phi,. padamulika literaly means, one who serves at the feet [of king].

Here Kusuma seems to be related with Kaswan clan of Jats.

According to Kishori Lal Faujdar, An article about Raja Kharavela in Orissa mentions about the rule of Kaswan in 2nd century of Vikram samvat. It has been mentioned in ‘Hathi Gumpha and three other inscriptions’ (page 24) in Sanskrit as under:

कुसवानाम् क्षत्रियानां च सहाय्यतावतां प्राप्त मसिक नगरम्

Kusawānāṃ kshatriyānāṃ ca Sahāyyatāvatāṃ prāpt masika nagaraṃ.

This translates that the city of 'Masik' was obtained with the help of 'Kuswa' Kshatriyas. It should now read as Asikanagar as made clear above.

Reference

* Sadananda Agrawal: Śrī Khāravela, Published by Sri Digambar Jain Samaj, Cuttack, 2000.
* Kishori Lal Faujdar: Jat Samaj Monthly Magazine, Agra, January/February (2001) page-6.
************************************
Note - I visited Bhubaneswar recently and could see places connected with Asoka and Kharavela. Asoka inscriptions are at Dhauligiri and Kharavela inscriptions are at Udayagiri and Khandagiri caves. Since Jat historians mention both these rulers as Jats so I have provided above informations on Jatland for our members. This is also on Jatlan Wiki at

http://www.jatland.com/home/Hathigumpha_inscription

One thing seems possible that Kharavela is probably Kharav Jat, which needs further research. Kasawan is certainly related with Kharavela. Asikanagar seems to be related with Asiagh or Siyak Jats. A strong intervention of Jat historians is needed to search exact origin of Kharavela. It is possible that Siyaks were at Asikanagara and they moved from here after their fall to Jangladesh as is recorded by Thakur Deshraj how they came to Jangladesh.

lrburdak
April 21st, 2007, 10:35 AM
Kharvel was king of Kharav Jat clan

Kharvel or Khāravela(खारवेल) is a gotra of Jats in India. It is derived from Raja Khāravela ( खारवेल), who was a Jat king. [Dharmpal Singh Dudi]


Kharavela (IAST: Khāravela, Devanagari: खारवेल) was the king of Kalinga, in Orissa state of India. He was responsible for the propagation of Jainism in East India. He led many successful campaigns against Magadha, Anga and what is today Tamil Nadu. He restored the power of Kalinga after it had been devastated in a war with Maurya King Ashoka. He was the third king of the Mahameghavahana dynasty. The main source of information about Kharavela is his famous seventeen line Hathigumpha inscription in a cave in Udayagiri hill near Bhubaneswar in Orissa.

Origin

Exact origin of Kharavela is not yet known to the historians. Some historians have tried to speculate the origin of Kharavela. Suniti Kumar Chatterji is of the opinion that Kharavela belonged to Dravidian stock. But how he came to the conclusion has not been explained. It would be better to take Kharavela as the prakrit form of Sanskrit word Ksharavela (Devanagari:क्षारवेल). It is significant to note here that the letter Khā (Devanagari:खा) in the Hathigumpha inscription invariably stands for kshā (Devanagari:क्षा) So, Khāra (Devanagari:खार) has to be taken as Kshāra (Devanagari:क्षार) meaning saltish and Vela means wave or shore. The word Khāra(Devanagari:खार) is still in vogue in many a northwestern Indian language in the sense “Saltish”, and the second component, vela, is also reminiscent of the word vela meaning wave or shore. [Sadananda Agrawal: Śrī Khāravela, Published by Sri Digambar Jain Samaj, Cuttack, 2000] Khāra (Devanagari:खार) word of Hindi indicates its linkages with northwest India. In northwest India, we find mention of Khārvel as a clan originated from samrat Kharavela, in the list of Jat clans given by Jat historians. Similarly in Jat history books Ail (ऐल) has been mentioned as habitation of Aryans in northwest and Air (ऐर) as a Jat clan originated from Nagavanshi ruler named Airawat. [Dharmpal Singh Dudi: Adhunik Jat Itihas] It needs more research to find the exact origin of Kharavela.

Dynasty of Kharavela

In the first line of Hathigumpha inscription Kharavela styles himself as IAST-Aireṇa Mahārājena Mahāmeghavāhana Cetarāja vasa Vadhanena xxx Kalimgādhipatinā Siri Khāravelan (Devanagari:ऐरेण महाराजेन महामेघवाहनेन चेतराज वस वधनेन पसथ सुभलखलेन चतुरंतलुठन गुणउपेनेत कलिंगाधिपतिना सिरि खारवेलेन) While the earliest scholar Prinsep and R L Mitra take the word Aira as the name of the king of Kalinga eulogised in the inscription, other few scholars are inclined to take the word as dynastic name and connected the ancestry of Kharavela with the puranic Aila belonging to the lunar Kshatriya dynasty. Bhagwan Lal Indraji is the first scholar to assert that the King whose activities are glorified in the inscription in named Kharavela.

It is a significant to note here that there is also no direct evidence in Hathigumpha inscription to show that Kharavela belongs to Cedi Dynasty. The only meaning conveyed by this expression is that Kharavela was the son of Cetarāja (Devanagari:चेतराज). [Sadananda Agrawal: Śrī Khāravela, Published by Sri Digambar Jain Samaj, Cuttack, 2000] There is a small crack in the stone above the letter ta (त) giving the impression of medial i. this crack misled some eminent scholars like R.D. Banerji and D.C. Sircar to decipher the word as Ceti (Devanagari:चेति) and this conjectural reading led the renowned scholars to hold the view that Kharavela belongs to Cedi dynasty. But in no way this can be accepted. It is pertinent to note in this context that a small inscription is found engraved in the Mancapuri Cave where King Kudepasiri (one of the successor of Kharavela) styled him self as Aira Maharaja Kalingadhipati Mahameghavahana (Devanagari:ऐरे महाराजा कलिंगाधिपतिना महामेघवाहन).

The King Sada has also been styled himself as Maharaja Kalinga Mahisika Adhipati Mahameghavahana. Both Kudepasiri and Sada, happen to be the successors of Kharavela, have never been stated in their respective inscription to be belonging to Cedi dysasty. It is significant that the word Aira has not been prefixed with the name of Sada. The Vahana ending dynastic (and personal) names were quite popular during the few centuries preceding. The meaning of Mahameghavahana is the great one riding on clouds. Dr. Sahu takes Maha as the prefix of Megha and opines: “ Mahameghavahana literary means one whose vehicle is great cloud”.

In line 17 of the Hathigumpha inscription Kharavela claims to have been descended from Rajarsi Vasu Kula. King Vasu recorded in Hathigumpha inscription can not be taken as Cedi king. It is pertinent to note in the context that in Mahabharata, Meghavahana as a dynastic name is found mentioned (Sabha Parva, XIV, 13) while the same epic preserves detailed accounts regarding the activities of Cedi dynasty. Cedi and Meghavahana have been flourished as two distinct dynasties since the early times, so both the dynasties should not be equated. [Sadananda Agrawal: Śrī Khāravela, Published by Sri Digambar Jain Samaj, Cuttack, 2000] We have already stated earlier that Cetaraja was the father of Kharavela and it seems probable that he was the immediate predecessor of Kharavela, belonging to be the second king in the Mahameghavahana line in Kalinga. The line-7 of the Hathigumpha inscription indicates that the Queen of Vajiraghara (Chief Queen of Kharavela ?) gave birth to a son. Another inscription in the lower storey of the same caves informs us that it had been executed by the Aira Maharaja Kalingadhipati Mahameghavahana Kudepasiri. In this cave another inscription is incised which reveals the name of Kumara Badukha. It is to be noted here that Kumara Badukha has not assumed any royal title. However, it is difficult to be sure of the relationship between Kharavela and Kudepasir. As no available record speaks any thing more about prince Badukha, he stands an obscure figures, in history but seems to be the son or brother Kudepasiri.

Mahiska country denoted the modern coastal Andhra (Guntur – Krishna region) which was apparently added to the Mahameghavahana kingdom at least during the reign of Maharaja Sada.

The sada rule came to an end during end first century / early second century A.D. [Sadananda Agrawal: Śrī Khāravela, Published by Sri Digambar Jain Samaj, Cuttack, 2000]

Clan of Kharavela

As pointed out earlier it needs more research to find the exact origin of Kharavela. I got a chance to visit Udayagiri and Khandagiri caves near Bhubaneswar on 15-2-2007 and saw Hathigumha inscription personally. The main source of information about Kharavela is his famous seventeen line Hathigumpha inscription in a cave in Udayagiri hill near Bhubaneswar in Orissa.

To arrive at some conclusion we have to find the origin of words mentioned in Hathigupha inscription. From the very first line we find that

Aireṇa Mahārājena Mahāmeghavāhana Cetarāja vasa Vadhanena xxx Kalimgādhipatinā Siri Khāravelan

Khāra word of Hindi indicates its linkages with northwest India. It means the origin of this clan is from Salt-range area situated in Sindh, which is considered to be the original home of Jats by historians. [Dr S.Jabir Raza, The Jats - Their Role and Contribution to the Socio-Economic Life and Polity of North and North West India. Vol I, 2004, Ed Dr Vir Singh]

We agree with scholars who are inclined to take the word’ ‘El’ or ‘Ail’ as dynastic name and connected with the ancestry of Kharavela with the puranic Aila belonging to the lunar Kshatriya dynasty. Chetraja was his father as proved above. It is very important to note the significance of word Mahāmeghavāhana. I did an analysis of Jat gotras in Muzffarnagar district in Uttar Pradesh and found that Kharav gotra Jats live in village called Meghakheri.

Meghakheri (मेघाखेड़ी) is a village in Sadar tehsil of Muzaffarnagar district in Uttar Pradesh. It is very ancient village. Population of the village is about 3000. It is mainly a village of Kharav Jats. Out of total population 50 percent are Kharav gotra Jats. Other Jats are Malik only four families. [Interview dated 21-4-2007 with Shri Rishipal Singh, Bachan Singh Colony, Muzaffarnagar (UP). Mob-9412110179] Thus we can conclude that Kharavela was a king of Kharav Jat clan originated from village Meghakheri and got the title of Mahāmeghavāhana on this basis.

lrburdak
April 21st, 2007, 10:36 AM
Other Jat clans associated with Kharavela

If Kharavela was Jat then there must be other Jat clans to assist him. Now we find from Hathigumpha inscription some clues about other Jat clans also.

Asiagh and Kaswan Jats

It is revealed from Line-4 of the Hathigumpha inscription that Kharavela in the second year of his reign dispatched a strong force comprising cavalry, elephantry, infantry and chariotry to the western quarter without caring for or bothering about Sātakarnī, and Asikanagara was frightened on its reaching the river Kanhavemṇā. Some scholars prefer to read Masikanagara instead of Asikanagara and locate it in the coastal region of Andhra Pradesh.

An article about Raja Kharavela in Orissa mentions about the rule of Kaswan in 2nd century of Vikram samvat. It has been mentioned in ‘Hathi Gumpha and three other inscriptions’ (page 24) in Sanskrit as under:

Sanskrit - कुसवानाम् क्षत्रियानां च सहाय्यतावतां प्राप्त मसिक नगरम्
IAST - “Kusawānāṃ kshatriyānāṃ ca Sahāyyatāvatāṃ prāpt masika nagaraṃ”.

This translates that the city of 'Masiknagara' was obtained with the help of 'Kuswan' Kshatriyas [Kishori Lal Faujdar:Jat Samaj Monthly Magazine, Agra, January/February (2001) page-6]

According to Sadananda Agrawal interpretation of the city as Masikanagara is not well-supported. Kanhavemṇā is commonly equated with the river Krishna coastal flowing in Andhra Pradesh. However, Krishna lies much to the south of Kalinga, and not west as averred in the epigraph (Devanagari: पछिमदिसं). But there is another stream flowing to the west of Kalinga in Vidarbha and known locally at present as Kanhan which flows about 17 km northwest of Nagpur and joins the river Vena (Wainganga), and it is the combined flow of these two streams that is spoken as Kanhavemṇā in our records. [Sadananda Agrawal: Śrī Khāravela, Published by Sri Digambar Jain Samaj, Cuttack, 2000]

The recent find of a sealing belonging to the Asikajanapada in course of intensive archaeological excavations at Adam (Nagpur district) has solved also the problem of locating Asikanagara whose king or and people became frightful at the arrival of Kharavela's army at Kanhavemṇā. In view of the evidence of a highly prosperous city unearthed at Adam, Prof AM Shastri is of the opinion that Adam itself represents the Asikanagara of Hathigumpha inscription. It is worth noting in the present context that a terracotta sealing having a legend, has been discovered from Adam, situated on the right bank of the river Wainganga, which reads Asakajanapadasa (Devanagari: असकजनपदस). [Sadananda Agrawal: Śrī Khāravela, Published by Sri Digambar Jain Samaj, Cuttack, 2000]

The township of Asikanagara to the west of Nagpur indicates the township of Asiagh or Siyak jats. This is also supported by Thakur Deshraj that Asiagh Jats moved from Asigarh in Malwa to Rajasthan. This must have been migration to Rajasthan of these people when their rule came to an end. After this period their rule is recorded in Jangladesh by the Historians James Tod and Thakur Deshraj.

From the above description we can interpret that Kaswan Jat was a chieftain who helped Kharavela in his war expedition. Kaswan Jats must also have moved along with Kharavela to Kalinga. It is also confirmed from following inscription:

X- Tatowāgumphā inscription (Cave No -1)

The record of this inscription is incised over one of the entrances to the inner chamber. The Text reads in Sanscrit as

पादमुलिकस कुसुमस लेणं x [।।] (IAST: pādamulikas kusumas lenam x)

Translation: The cave of Kusuma, the padamulika.

Notes:- There is a syllable after the word lenam, which may be read as ni or phi,. padamulika literally means, one who serves at the feet [of king].

According to Kishori Lal Faujdar, Here Kusuma seems to be related with Kaswan clan of Jats. He refers an article ‘Hathi Gumpha and three other inscriptions’ (page 24) in Devanagari as under[3]:

कुसवानाम् क्षत्रियानां च सहाय्यतावतां प्राप्त मसिक नगरम्
IAST - Kusawānāṃ kshatriyānāṃ ca Sahāyyatāvatāṃ prāpt masika nagaraṃ.

Translation:- This translates that the city of 'Masikanagara ' was obtained with the help of 'Kuswan' Kshatriyas.

Burdak Jats

There is one small inscription in Udayagiri caves about Prince Vaḍukha, which has not yet been interpreted by the historians. Had the historians knowledge about Jat clans it would have been easy to interpret it. The inscription details are as under.

III-Manchapuri cave inscription 'B' (Lower storey)'

This inscription has been engraved on the right wall of Veranda, to the right of the entrance to the right-hand side chamber of the main wing, consisting of one line. The text in Devanagari script is as under:

कुमारो वडुखस लेणं (IAST: kumāro vadukhas lenam)

Translation - [This is] the cave of Prince Vaḍukha.

Note:- On palaeographic ground Prof Banergy considers this inscription to be a little earlier than the inscription of king Kudepasiri. According to Sadananda Agrawal, Prince Badukha stands an obscure figure in history, but Badukha seems to be the son or brother of Kudepasiri. Here Badukha is the prakrat form of Barduk or Burdak, which is again a Jat clan of northwest India.

Chalka Jats

IV- Inscriptions in the sarpagumpha (Over the door way)

This inscription consisting of one line, is incised over the doorway of the sarpagumpha. The text in Devanagari script is as under:

चूलकमस कोठाजेया च (IAST: chūlakamas koţhājeyā cha)

Translation - The chamber and veranda/or side chamber of hūlakama. Note:- However Dr. Sahu interpreted Ajeya being united by a Sandhi qualifying Koṭha there by denoting invincible. But he ignored the conjunction ca (Devanagari: च) which follows Koṭha(Devanagari:कोठा) and Jeya (Devanagari:जेया).

VI- Haridas cave inscription

This inscription contains one line has been incised over one of the three entrances to the main chamber of the cave from the veranda. The text in Devanagari script is as under:

चूलकमस पसातो कोठाजेया च (IAST: chūlakamas pasāto koţhājeyā cha)

Translation :- The chamber and veranda (or side chamber) are the gift of chūlakama.

Note- Historians are unable to interpret it but infact it was the cave of Chalka or Chilka clan Jats.

Queen of Kharavela was Lal Jat

I- Mancapuri cave inscription (Upper storey)

This inscription is engraved on the raised space between the second and third doorways of the cave. The text in Devanagari script is as under:

L.1- अरहंत पसादाय कलिंगानं समनानं लेनं कारितं राजिनो ललाकस
L.2- हथिसिहस पपोतस धुतुना कलिंग चकवतिनो सिरिखारवेलस
L.3- अगमहिसिना कारितं

Translation - By the blessings of Arhats the chief queen of Kharavela, the Cakravarti monarch of Kalinga, the great grand-daughter of Hathisiha (Hasti Simha) and the daughter of Lalāka or Lalārka caused to be excavated the cave for the sramanas of Kalinga.

The Line of Hathigumpha inscription mentions that in the seventh year of his reign [the Queen] of Vajiraghara was blessed with a son attained motherhood. Sometime before his coronation the prince very probably married chief queen as per presence was essentially required in anointation ceremony. The chief queen, whose record has been engraved in the upper storey of Mancapuri Cave, was the great-grand daughter of Hastisimha and the daughter of king Lalaka or Lalarka. It is to be pointed out here that nothing is known abouth Hastisimha and Lalarka from any other source.

Note:- It is to be noted here that historians do not have any idea about queen of Kharavela. Infact she was daughter of Lalaka or Lala gotra Jats found in Muzaffarnagar in Uttar Pradesh. Lal (लल) gotra Jats live in Muzaffarnagar district in Badhai Kala, Barwala, Chunsa, Fahimpur, Lisad, Moghpur, Muzaffarnagar villages.

lrburdak
May 6th, 2007, 04:25 PM
Nagavansh is one of the category of kshatriyas. Chandravanshi King Ayu had a king named Elakha in nineth generation, whose son was Nagas, from whom started Nagavansh. Prajapati Daksha's daughter was Sarma, who was wife of Suryavanshi king Kashyapa, who gave birth to son of Naga clan from whom started the Nagavansh. [1]

History of Nagas

Nagas people spread throughout India during the period of the epic Mahabharata. The demi-god tribe called Suparnas (in which Garuda belonged) were arch-rivals of the Nagas. However, the Nagas near Kashmir seems to be the original abode of all of them. Places like Anantnag attests this theory.

1. Naga Ananta was the first among all the Naga kings.
2. The second Naga chief Vasuki had the kingdom near Kailasa (hence the connection of Vasuki with lord Siva).
3. The third chief Takshaka, in Takshasila both not far from Anantnag.
4. The kingdoms of other Nagas like Karkotaka and Airavata (near river Iravati (Ravi, one among the five rivers of Punjab) were also not far away.

Nagas had kingdoms in Nagaland and Andhra Pradesh. Arjuna's wife Ulupi was from one of such Naga kingdom (in Gangetic Plain) Arjuna's another wife Chitrangada who also was known to Ulupi was from Manipuri (location uncertain). She was probably from a Dravidian tribe. There are now many Naga worshiping places in South India, especially in Andhra Pradesh and Kerala.

Naga race was almost exterminated by Janamejaya, the Kuru king in Arjuna's line, who conducted the massacre of Nagas at Takshasila. This massacre was stopped by Astika, a Brahmin whose mother was a Naga (Vasuki's sister Jaratkaru).

According to a story in Matsya Puran, quoted in chapter X of a book India of the Dark Ages the Nagas ruled for 100 years as renegades (this because they were Buddhist). Later, it is said they purified themselves with water of the Ganga, performed ten Asvamedha Yagyas and were thus accepted, into the folds of Vaishnavism.

Nāgas in Hindu religion

A festival of Nāga panchami is celebrated in Hindus to pay respect to Nāgas. The five Nāgas worshiped on Nāga panchami are Ananta, Vāsuki, Taxak, Karkotaka and Pingala. According to a Puranic myth Brahma’s son Kashyapa had four wives. Kashyapa’s first wife gave birth to Devas, second to Garudas, third to Nāgas and fourth to Daityas. (Dainik Jagran, 25 July 2006). The third wife of Kashpa was called Kadroo, who gave birth to Nāgas. So Nāgas are also known as Kadroojā. They were the rulers of Pātāl-Loka. There is a Sanskrit shloka to remember important nine Nāgas as under: (Dainik Bhaskar 30 July 2006)

अनन्तं वासुकिं शेषं पद्मनाभं च कम्बलम् । Anantam Vāsukim Shesham Padmanābham cha Kambalam


शंखपालं धार्तराष्ट्रं तक्षकं कालियं तथा ।। Shankhapālam Dhārtarāshtram Taxakam Kāliyam tathā

एतानि नवनामानि च महात्मनाम् । Etāni navanāmāni cha mahātmanām

Nagavanshi kings in Mahabharata

Mahabharata counts following more Naga clans – Ahi, Shivatra, (Khet) Ashit, Serbhak, Sevridha, Astin, Kantat, Spaj, Anat, Kulik, Shankhapāl, Darvī, Achāswa, Ajgar, Āligī, Vilagī, Orīvisha, Karikrat, Kasṇīnla, Tirashcha Raji, Naimarat, Prīdākū, Prīdāmī, Rajju, Lohitāhī, Ratharvī, Vāhas, Serbhā.

The Nagavanshi kings had a symbol of Naga or serpent on their coins and flags. The coins of Nagavanshi rulers are still found at village Āhār in Bulandshar district in Uttar Pradesh. These coins depict symbols of Nagas on them. There is mention of Nagas in Mahabharata in a story in which Duryodan poisoned Bhima to kill and threw into Ganga River. When he was foating inriver he reached village Āhār where the Nagavanshi rulers took him out from Ganga River and gave treatment to cure. After treatment he was sent to Hastinapur.

Note:- Study of Nagavansh is important to reconstruct the History of Jats as many Jat clans find origins in nagavansha.

Reference - 1.↑ Bhaleram Beniwal: Jāton kā Ādikālīn Itihāsa, Jaypal Agencies, Agra 2005 (Page 25)

lrburdak
May 6th, 2007, 04:37 PM
Naga is clan of Jats

According to historian RS Joon, The facts are, however, different about Nagavansha. This dynasty belonged to Madrak Jat gotra of Yadav Vansh and was devotees of Shiva. They had a number of ruling dynasties such as Takshak Nag, Bachak Nag, Kilkil Nag, Karkotaka, Kaliramna etc all of which are Jat gotras. Mathura, Padmavati and Kantipur were capitals of Naga dynasty. Nagas of Padmavati were called Taank, which is also a Jat gotra, and are found in 24 villages near Sonipat.

In chapter 29 of "India of the Dark Ages" the ancestor of Tanks is mentioned as Raja Gajvkatra. In chapter 42 of the same book it is mentioned that Malla Jat Republic extended from Eastern Punjab to the Ganga and Yodhya republic extended into Rajasthan. Nagpur belonged to the Nagas. Nagar Brahmins also originated from there.

The Pauranic prejudice in the story is understandable. The Jats who followed Buddhism were considered renegades and those who adopted Vaishnavism became staunch Hindus.

Naga gotra (clan) of Jats are dtill found in Nagaur and Sikar districts of Rajasthan and Khargone district of Madhya Pradesh. The villages inhabited by Naga Jats in Sikar district are - Dujod, Kanwarpura, Rampura, Sikar. In Madhya Pradesh Naga Jats are found in Indore, MHOW, Ratlam, Harda, Ujjain, Khandwa, Dewas, Shajapur, Pachor, Gwalior, Tarana, Jabalpur, Katni, Narsinghpur, Badwah and Khargone.

Genealogy of Nāga kshatriyas

The list of rulers in the genealogy of Nāga kshatriyas, as provided by Kishori Lal Faujdar, is as under:

Shesha, Vāsuki, Arāwati, Taxak, Karkotak, Dhananjay, Kāliya, Manināth, Āyūraṇa (Pauniya), Pinjarak, Alāwat, Vāman, Nīl, Anīl, Kalmāsha, Shabal, Āryak, Ugrak Kalash, Pok, Sumand, Dīghamukh, Nimal Pindak, Shankh, Bāl Shiv, Vishtāvak, Imeguh, Nahush, Pingal, Bahya Varṇa, Hastipad, Mundar, Pindak, Karal, Ashwatar, Kālīshak, Pahal, Tūn Danvartak, Shankhamukh, Kushmāndak, semak, Chindārak, Karvīr, Pushpadand, Vilvak, Pāndhūr, Mūshakād, Shankhasirā, Pūrṇāmadra, Haridrak, Aparājit, Jotik, Pannag, Srāvah, Kauravya, Dhritarashtra, Shankhapind, Virjā, Suvahu, Shālipind, Haritpind, Pithrak, Sumukh, Koṇaya Dashan, Kuthar, Kunjar, Prabhākar, Kusad, Halak, Kumudāksha, Tittar, Mahāsarp, Kadanm, Bahumūlak, Karkar, Kundaudar, Mahodar.

Nagavanshi Jat clans

Some Jat clans developed their Vansha according to their system of worship such as Devas and Nāgas. In Devas the worshippers of Indra were known as Aindra, worshippers of Varun as Vārun, worshippers of Mitra as Maitreya or Mitrā, worshippers of Shiva as Shivi or Shaivya, worshippers of Marut as Mārut, worshippers of Gandharva as Gāndharva, worshippers of Shesha as Sheshma, worshippers of Karka as Karkotaka, worshippers of Nāga as Nāgā or Nāgil.

Jat clans of Nagavanshi or Nāgas were originated from Kashyapa. The Nāgvanshis acquired the status of Devas due to their excellent qualities, behavior and actions. Purānas mention Nāgas along with devas. Purānas mention of many Nāga Kingdoms. In ancient times Nāgas were the rulers of entire India. During their peak period of rule they had sent armies to other countries also conquered them. In many places Indian Nāgas have been mentioned as ruling dynasties such as Tāk, Taxak, Tānak, Tushta etc. Apart from these there were many branches of Nāgas such as Karkotaka Vanshi, Shesha Vanshi, Vāsuki Vanshi, Ahi Vanshi, Manibhadra Vanshi etc. These branches further developed as sub branches such as Sind Vansh, Kushan Vansh, Vaish Vansh and Saindhav Vansh etc.

List of the nagavansh Jat clans

Dharmpal Singh Dudee[2], Mansukh Ranwa [3] and Dr Naval Viyogi [4] provide informations about Nagavansh. A list of Jat gotras found in Nagavansh is given below:

Ābūdā, Āchashw, Ahi, Air, Airāwat, Āligī, Aparājit, Āpt, Ārtimān, Āryak, Asit, Aulak, Avalak, Avyay, Ayāhaṭ, Bāmal, Bānā, Barojwār, Bāsaṭh, Baulyā, Beniwāl, Bhakar, Bhākhar, Bhāṃmū, Bharaṃgur, Bhārshiv, Bheṃroṃ, Bhinchar, Bīhal, Bīlwān, Birālā, Dahiya, Dhaka, Dhaulyā, Deū, Devatra, Gorā, Imeguh, Kājal, Kālā, Kalash, Kāle Rāwat, Kālī, Kālī Ramaṇ, Kālī Ramatā, Kālī Rāwate, Kālī Rāye, Kālīḍhaman, Kālīshak, Kālīy, Kalmāsh, Kalwaria, Kalwāriyā, Kalyā, Kalya, Kalyāṇ, Kamal, Kanwal, Kariyā, Karkar, Karkoṭak, Karvīr, Kharwal, Khokhar, Khoṇḍal, Konḍāl, Kothār, Kulak, Kulakiyā, Kulār, Kullar, Kuṃḍodar, Kumuḍ, Kunḍal, Kunjar, Kushmānḍak, Kuṭhar, Legā, Lochag, Matwā, Mātwe, Muḍwāḍiyā, Mundel, Nāg, Nāgā, Nāgar, Nāgauriyā, Nīl, Odasī, Olā, Paḍwāl, Pāgwaṭ, Pāhal, Pāl, Paṃḍahārī, Pāṇḍar, Pāṇḍul, Pandul, Panjā, Pānn, Parsāne, Paṭhur, Pauḍiyā, Pehalāyaṇ, Piṃḍale, Podān, Pūchale, Punia, Rāhal, Roj, Roja , Rotra, Sagsail, Saharan, Sāmotā, Samrā, Sāngū, Sawaū, Sewdā, Sheshāno, Sheshmā, Shwitra, Shyaukand, Sihāg, Siraswār, Sitarwār, Siwāyach, Sumrā, Sūtalā, Takhar, Takshak, Ṭāṃk, Tankor, Tetarwl, Tītarwāl, Tokas, Toran, Udwal, Ugrak, Vaharwāl, Vais, Varik, Varṇwāl, Vasath, Vaurāṇ, Vāvan, Vīhan, Vodiyā, Yolyā,

References

1. ↑ Bhaleram Beniwal: Jāton kā Ādikālīn Itihāsa, Jaypal Agencies, Agra 2005 (Page 25)
2. ↑ Dr Mahendra Singh Arya, Dharmpal Singh Dudee, Kishan Singh Faujdar & Vijendra Singh Narwar: Ādhunik Jat Itihasa (The modern history of Jats), Agra 1998
3. ↑ Mansukh Ranwa:Kshatriya Shiromani Vir Tejaji, Page 9
4. ↑ Dr Naval Viyogi: Nagas – The Ancient Rulers of India, Their Origins and History (The History of the Indigenous people of India Vol. 2), Published by Originals (an imprint of Low Price Publications), Delhi, 2002, ISBN 81-7536-287-1

lrburdak
May 6th, 2007, 06:21 PM
According to Dr Naval Viyogi [1] In a period of third century AD many hoards of Taka coins have been recovered from Chutia Nagpur region,[2] which were introduced by the Taka Nagas or Takshak Nagas of North-West. Linguists have informed that these Taka people reached and ruled in the region of Dhaka of Bangla Desh, since the word ' Dhaka' is a linguistic (Pali) variation of Taka. [3] In the second act of Sanskrit play mrcchakatika a dialect has been used by author, known as Takki. Taki, Takka or Dhakka is the Prakrit dialect which has been called by Pischal language of East Bengal spoken around Dhaka, but there is another interpretation too, since word 'Ta' has been changed to 'Dha' due to the tendency of change from Sanskrit to Pali or Prakrit as cited above, hence the original word is Taka from which Dhaka has been derived.[4][5]

References

1. ↑ Dr Naval Viyogi: Nagas – The Ancient Rulers of India, Their Origins and History (The History of the Indigenous people of India Vol. 2), Published by Originals (an imprint of Low Price Publications), Delhi, 2002, ISBN 81-7536-287-1
2. ↑ Gupta Chandra Shekhar "Foreign Denomination of early Indian Coins" VIJ (1978) Vol 16 Part 1-2 pp 92-93
3. ↑ Bulletin of the Deccan Research Institute, Vol I (1939-40) p.192
4. ↑ Mehendale M.A. "Takki or Dhakki" , Bulletin of the Deccan College research Institute Vol I (1939-40) p.189-92
5. ↑ Dr Naval Viyogi: Nagas – The Ancient Rulers of India, Their Origins and History (The History of the Indigenous people of India Vol. 2), Published by Originals (an imprint of Low Price Publications), Delhi, 2002, ISBN 81-7536-287-1. pp-22,25,156

sktewatia
May 7th, 2007, 02:59 AM
Burdakji

All bhalu-bandars (Jambwant-hanuman etc.) in Ramayana, including Rama were Jats. Please try to concentrate on animal avtars. say out of 10 avtars many were animals like matsyavtar (machhar jats etc.). Almost all animal named kings and dynasties in epics/history like Bakasur in Mahabharta who was killed by Bhima. Similarly morasur(mor jats) and narasur(nahra jats) who were killed by Krishna were jats only. Most of the Jat clans are named after common flaura and fauna of Eurasia. And hence all great dynasties like Naga, Vanar, More, Kak (Kakran Jats) etc. were Jats.

regards

lrburdak
May 8th, 2007, 10:15 PM
In the form of languages the remains of aboriginal tribes and castes are still in each and every corner of India. The Munda languages in North East and Dravidian languages in South are spoken till to-day their main mark of identification in aboriginal tribes was the tradition of totemism : on the other hand there was tradition of Gotras in Aryan tribes and castes. [1]


Totem can be defined as follows: if some casters or tribes or a group of families living together accept animal or a plant as their totem, it is called the totem of that caste or tribe viz Monkey, bear, fish, serpent, dear, eagle, tortoise, pea-cock, duck and many plants etc. [2]


Acharya Chhitiji Mohan Sen [3] has defined the totem tradition: “From the most ancient time, in different countries, nations or tribes, a particular mark or insignia (animal, bird or plant) known as totem was in practice: that insignia was a subject of great respect and full faith for each and every member of the tribe or Nation. [4]


According to Majumdar the killing of certain animals or eating them is tabooed in some clans. Some tribes bear sign thereof. The totem animal, when it dies is ceremonially mourned and buried as a member of the clan concerned. The assumptions, with regard to totemism, are that totem organization is universal. J.F. Maclenon was the first to understand the significance of totemism as a primitive social institution.

According to Majumdar [5], as per ethnographic Survey of India, the Santhals have more than 100 totemistic clans. Hos have more than 50, Mundas 64 and Bhils 24, many castes in Orissa, the Kurmi, the Kumhar, the Bhumia, who have advanced in culture in recent years are named after the serpent, pumpkin, jackal and other totems. The Katkaris of Bombay, the Gond tribes of M.P. and of Rajasthan also have clan names after the fauna and flora of their habitat. It is clear that all these castes and tribes were sometimes, organized into totem system. But now owing to spreading of education and civilization, above system has also lost its grounds. [6]

Serpent Totem and Naga race

It is crystal clear from the above description, that Nagas were also tribes which, had serpent as their totem. They worshiped serpents and consider them to be their protector deities. They also used to wear artificial hoods of cobra on their heads. [7]


They were in origin indigenous Kshatriyas. They ruled all over India during history and pre-historic time. Some of the Naga Kings and families can be enumerated as under: Ahivritra, Ashwasena, Takshaka, Gonanda, Lohara, Karkota of North; Brahamadutta of Kashi, Sishunaga and Nanda of Magadha, of North east; Nagas of Padmavati (Bharsiva), Vidisa, Eran, Mathura, Ahichchhattra, Kausambi, Malava, Chakrakot, Bhogwati, in Central India; Andhra or Satvahanas (235 BC -225 AD) Chuttus, Chalukya, Pallava, Kadamba, Chhindaka, Chera, Chola of South India etc. Most of the above Naga families ruled between 500 BC and 500 AD and some of them onward up to the Mughal period. [8]

The Harappan Civilization and cult of Naga Worship

The Indus Valley Civilization which is the most ancient civilization of India, was spread up in North-West: Harappa, Mohenjodaro , Chanhudaro and Lothal were its most important towns. The founders of Indus valley civilization were Mediterraneans or Dravidians and Australoids, [9] where as, round headed Alpines, appeared, in mature age of this culture. [10] In excavation of these towns, in addition to Burnished Red ware, a very high number of seals and seal impressions have also been found out. Among the seals so found out on one seal, there is a figure of chief deity with buffalo head, on its both sides, are two other man deities and behind each of them is a serpent in standing posture. On another seal, there is a serpent, in standing posture, behind the bull, which is fighting with a mighty man. [11] On another third seal, there is a serpent resting his head on a Wooden bench or seat, which is protecting a tree deity. [12]

The presence of serpents on all the above three seals, establishes that the serpent was their (Harappans) protector deity and symbol of authority of rule. We can draw the following conclusion from the above detail:

1. The tradition of serpent worship or totemisim was prevalent in Indus Valley Civilization
2. The scene depicted on the seal no.-2, shows its relation with the myths of Bobylonia, which proves origin of this tradition on Western Asia.

This fact finding is further corroborated by seal, No.4 This figure is incised on a cylinder seal recovered form Babylonia (Lajards culte de Mithra). This proves the origin of tradition of tree and serpent worship in Babylonia, from where later on it was transferred to Indus Valley. [13]


Description of Nagas or Serpents in Vedas

The Rigveda

In Rigvedic account there is mention of Naga (Serpent ) race, Naga kings and Naga warriors.

There is description [14] of serpent deity “Ahivritra” in the verses of this sacred book “Ahi” is synonym of serpent . The word “ Ahi Budhna (the serpent of base of a mountain ) has come twelve times in the Rigveda. [15]


According to Oldenberg water is a form of serpent and according to Macdonell [Keith A.B. “The Religion and Philosophy of the Vedas and Upnishadas, p.193], they (Serpents) are the forms of Ahivritra, who is thought to be heavenly, it is conclusive that ahi-Budhna who is thought to be heavenly it is conclusive that Ahi Budhna of Rigveda was a serpent deity who was worshipped. [16]


The Description of Vritra also has come repeatedly in Ragveda. [17] He was deadly enemy of Indra, and he ultimately was killed by the later, he also has been called by the names like Dasyu, Dasa, Asura and Ahi in Rigveda, the word “Ahi” had also come for serpent. It means Ahi was a serpent. The greatest Ahi of Vedic poet was Vritra sarpa (Vritra serpent) which could block waters (Rivers) [Keith A.B. “The Religion and Philosophy of the Vedas and Upnishadas, p.193] In Atharva-ved and later Brahmanical literature there is also mention of “ Ahi” Along with Vritra. [18] Ahi is a title of Naga Kings and as well as serpent. In support of this view there are enormous evidence in sanskrit scripture such as in Amarkosha (First kanda) in the list of serpents there is mention of “Ahi” . In Hindi dictionary of Nalanda the meaning of “Ahi” is serpent and Vritrasur. In the sanskrit Hindi dictionary of Apte, the meaning of “Ahi” is serpent “ boa.” In Rigveda ( VII-50-1 to 3) “Ahi” has been stated to be a dangerous serpent . In Uttar Pradesh the cultural center of mediaeval period was Ahichchhattra (centre of Naga rule) which was situated in the district of Barrielly. This was the capital of ancient Naga kings. [19]


This is quite clear that “Ahi” as described in Rigveda, was a serpent or Naga race, whose king was Vritra or Ahivritra.

The Atharva-Veda

Dr Bhagwatsharan Upadhyay, the famous scholar of ancient history and culture, has noted some hymns of Atharva-Veda (V-13-6 to 10), which have reference of Assyrian Naga kings Aligi and Viligi. This proves that Naga worship and totemism tradition came to India from Assyria. [20]

[B]References

1. ↑ Dr Naval Viyogi: Nagas the Ancient Rulers of India, p.226
2. ↑ Dr Naval Viyogi: Nagas the Ancient Rulers of India, p.226
3. ↑ Bharat mien jati bhed, pp.111-12
4. ↑ Dr Naval Viyogi: Nagas the Ancient Rulers of India, p.227
5. ↑ Majumdar D.N. pp346-47
6. ↑ Dr Naval Viyogi: Nagas the Ancient Rulers of India, p.227
7. ↑ Dr Naval Viyogi: Nagas the Ancient Rulers of India, p.227
8. ↑ Dr Naval Viyogi: Nagas the Ancient Rulers of India, p.228
9. ↑ Whealer R.E.M., “A.I.” Vol III Bulletin of Archaeological Survey of India (January,1947); Bose N.K. and others “Human Skeleton from Harappa” ASIC (1963) pp.58-59
10. ↑ Sarkar S.S., “Aboriginal Races of India”, pp.143-45
11. ↑ Sastri Kedarnath, New lights on the Indus Civilization” Vol I p.35
12. ↑ Dr Naval Viyogi: Nagas the Ancient Rulers of India, p.228
13. ↑ Dr Naval Viyogi: Nagas the Ancient Rulers of India, p.229
14 ↑ Keith A.B. “The Religion and Philosophy of the Vedas and Upnishadas, p.193
15. ↑ Dr Naval Viyogi: Nagas the Ancient Rulers of India, p.229
16. ↑ Dr Naval Viyogi: Nagas the Ancient Rulers of India, p.230
17. ↑ R.V.II-11-5;II-20-7 and V-32-8
18. ↑ Mishra D.P. “Studies in the Proto-History of India” p.87
19. ↑ Dr Naval Viyogi: Nagas the Ancient Rulers of India, p.230
20. ↑ Dr Naval Viyogi: Nagas the Ancient Rulers of India, p.230

sktewatia
May 8th, 2007, 11:39 PM
its supreme Burdakji.

yatinder19
May 9th, 2007, 01:27 PM
Ultimate work Burdak Jii
It was really worth to read...
Keep it up...

sktewatia
May 14th, 2007, 01:27 AM
jat loved his flaura and fauna like anything. one day I was about to die in water and my bhains in pokhar at janauli talab saved me. even bains knew her way like a dog.

smeker
May 14th, 2007, 02:25 AM
jat loved his flaura and fauna like anything. one day I was about to die in water and my bhains in pokhar at janauli talab saved me. even bains knew her way like a dog.
nice avatar

lrburdak
June 13th, 2007, 08:40 AM
Most of Jat historians write that we do not find mention of Jat word
in our epics. All write example of Jats and Meds in Sindh during the time of Mahabharata to show antiquity of the word Jat. But it is not correct and historians have not tried to interpret the names of Devas, Gods, Warriors who have been mentioned in Mahabharata.

I give here examples from Mahabharata which is available on line. The on line links to Shalya Parva are -

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m09/m09045.htm English text

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/mbs/mbs09044.htm Sanskrit text


In Book 9 Section 45 of Shalya Parva we have its English text. And in
Book 9 Chapter 44 we have its Sanskrit text and the English
transliteration. I have taken these on Jatland Wiki and given links to
some of Gods and the combatants who appeared in the installation
ceremony of Kartikeya, the son of Ganesha. Here are the links of
Jatland Wiki. You may see here

http://www.jatland.com/home/Shalya_Parva_in_English

http://www.jatland.com/home/Shalya_Parva_in_Sanskrit


In these the words provided links with Jat gotras are seen blue.

The following gods and the combatants have similar name in Jat gotra list

In Mahabharata – in Jat gotra

Dhatri – Dhatarwal
Gandharvas – Gandhar
Kasyapa – Kashyap
Atri – Atri
Sinivali – Sinsinwal
Airavat – Ahlawat
Vasuki – Vasuki
Mani – Maan
Damvara – Dhama
Kunda – Kundu
Kusuma – Kaswan
Vala – Bal, Balhara
Ghasa – Ghasal
Kanchana – Kanchap
Sankukarna – Sankhunia
Jata – Jat
Kunadika – Kundarwal
Punyanaman – Puniya
Kokonada – Kukana
Ajodara – Ajdolia
Gajasiras – Gajraj
Jwalajibha – Jewlia
Jati – Jat
Hari – Hari
Krishnakesa – Krishnia
Jatadhara – Jat
Jathara – Jat
Dhumra – Dhama
Gayana – Gaina
Vana – Bana
Kalakantha – Kala, Kalkal
Kalakaksha - Kala, Kalkal
Majjala – Manju
Tuhara – Toor
Madhura – Madhur
Thakara – Takhar
Pandura – Pandu, Pundir
Achala – Achra
Kokanada – Kok
Lohajvaktra – Lohchab
Javana – Joon
Mundagriva – Mund
Krishnaujas – Krishnia
Kharvaktra - Kharb

The Jat gotra names and their details can be found from Jatland Wiki at -

http://www.jatland.com/home/Jat_Gotras

It is to be noted all these Jat gotras are very old and reported as rulers in some areas by Jat historians like Thakur Deshraj, Dalip Singh Ahlawat etc.

What is needed is an intensive search and their interpretation in right perspective. The shloka 54 clearly mentions that one of the God was Jat as under -


54 एकाक्षॊ थवाथशाक्षश च तदैवैक जटः परभुः
सहस्रबाहुर विकटॊ वयाघ्राक्षः कषितिकम्पनः

thambu
July 20th, 2007, 07:10 PM
Mr Burdaks work is painstakingly done but one tends to get lost in all the puzzles of shlokas and their interpretations. At least it is beyond my comprehension.

I feel like all of us to find the origin of jats and not to get confused in various words and their interpretations. I feel If the Jats were really what we all are trying to say they were, then one thing is very clear that they did not keep any records of this greatness. Well thats Jat like quality , i assume. In our other forums we have been expressing that the jats were non puranic whereby here we are refering to ganesha, Brahma, Bhadrakali and all the shloks of the purans.....i just do not understand.

he other issue is that we are saying that the Jats were great in the ancient, pre ancient times then where were they after that period till 17th century. There is no record or shloka in this period. Most of the history books are written by Jats who tend to get biased towards their clan and so there word cannot be taken on its value.

What i feel is that all are trying to grapple at straws and assuming whatever we want to believe. We shud take a leaf out of Maliabad Pathans [Yusufzais] who wanted to know about their roots since they had kept their race pure through the ages at Maliabad near lucknow. One of these Maliabadi Pathan went to Israel to do gene research and find out what were the beginning of these pure Yusufzai muslim pathans. You know what they found out?? According to research they were the sons of joseph, also known in islam as yusuf. Zai in Pakhtuni means son. So they were found out to be sons of joseph, the jew. i really sympathize with these true muslims.

I feel we shud get our genes researched and not keep harping about similar sounding words. Lets get scientific and based on facts rather than fiction.

rgds

ravichaudhary
July 20th, 2007, 08:17 PM
[QUOTE=thambu;141335]


As a small interjection.

There is no need for jats to get worked up, and accuse Jat historians of bias, when they write about the Jats.

The fact of the matter, quite simply is, that jats have been thoroughly ignored in Indian History, by non Jat Historians, or whenever they have been referred to in the History books , they have been referred to in derogratory terms.

The point is that all Historians are biased, for history is largely a Point of View. The bias is their in all writers- British put their POV, castiest Indians put their POV.

Why then do we get upset, when jats put their POV?

I , for one, see no need to be apologetic when Jat historians bring out a favourable picture of the jats.

Luxman Burdak, is one of rising stars among the Jat historians, doing a lot of primary reasarch,


With the amount of output that he brings out, it should not be unexpected that, some of the material may be confusing, especially, to some one who had not been through the learning curve, in Indian history.

That said, I would love to see a thousand Luxman Burdaks, bring their skills , to the study of the history of our people.

Jat History studies will get quite a shot in the arm

While we have come a long way, we still have along way to go.

Ravi Chaudhary

smeker
July 24th, 2007, 12:24 AM
[quote=thambu;141335]



The point is that all Historians are biased, for history is largely a Point of View. The bias is their in all writers- British put their POV, castiest Indians put their POV.
Ravi Chaudhary
excelento
we can say that history is not a exact science like math,but a probabilistic one.

vijay
July 24th, 2007, 02:26 AM
[quote=ravichaudhary;141339]
excelento
we can say that history is not a exact science like math,but a probabilistic one.

History never can be science ....... but it's an overview of what our ancestors did in past and how can we learn from that .... provided the fact that we want to learn from their advantages and mistakes..... without any doubt and questions ....

Probablity occurs only in confused minds, my dear friend :)

So, just decide what we are and what we want to be .............

smeker
July 24th, 2007, 10:43 AM
[quote=smeker;141466]

History never can be science ....... but it's an overview of what our ancestors did in past and how can we learn from that .... provided the fact that we want to learn from their advantages and mistakes..... without any doubt and questions ....

Probablity occurs only in confused minds, my dear friend :)

So, just decide what we are and what we want to be .............
Stil ,history use scientific methods.An exact science need 2 things- repetiton and observation.An historical event never repeat it self and cant be observed in the present(except present events).But an earth whitout history is like a man whitout memory.
Imagine that you dont remember anything.
We search the bits of memory left in the earth,in the old books,in bones,in artefacts.History is not science because we dont remember all.:)

narenderkharb
July 24th, 2007, 08:56 PM
[quote=vijay;141469]
Stil ,history use scientific methods.An exact science need 2 things- repetiton and observation.An historical event never repeat it self and cant be observed in the present(except present events).But an earth whitout history is like a man whitout memory.
Imagine that you dont remember anything.
We search the bits of memory left in the earth,in the old books,in bones,in artefacts.History is not science because we dont remember all.:)

Historian getting philosophical .:)

Soko

I was interested in history of romanian Jats ,Can you share info about earliest record of them in romania ,their possible movement in to or out of romania .Other related info .Let us start a new thread .Some say that they were a part of Toccharian group that moved west .How true ?

smeker
July 25th, 2007, 11:37 AM
Ok ,i gona try to answer in detail today or towmorow.
Till then ,the first mention was in a greek theater piece,in 6 century BC,which mention Charnabon ,the king who rule over the get.

ravileo
July 25th, 2007, 05:19 PM
You are pearl sir
thakss 4 writing such a good information
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7qCfUumaSs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7qCfUumaSs)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyOabB5FyOU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyOabB5FyOU)

lrburdak
July 26th, 2007, 10:21 AM
Our readers like Arun Ahlawat are right when they say they get confused in the jugglery of sansakrit shlokas while reading Jat history. I would like to say that this is bound to happen till Jat history becomes crystal clear like science.

But the problem with us is that we do not have the system of recording Jat history in the past. We have to depend on what ever has been mentioned and where ever we find. It all has to be brought on record and interpreted. Most non Jat historians say that Jats or the Jat clans are not mentioned in Indian epics like Mahabharata and Ramayana. It is because they do not have knowledge about Jat gotras and their variants. When ever any Jat clan is mentioned in these epics the historians overlook and take it to be some outsider or from the aboriginal tribes.

We know that Jats were Aryans and living in Aryavrata then they should have been mentioned in the epics. All the sanskrit shlokas prove that Jats from very ancient time were in India that included Pakistan. Sindh being the epicenter.

Even if they are mentioned for example in the following shloka from Online Mahabharata -

54 एकाक्षॊ थवाथशाक्षश च तदैवैक जटः परभुः
सहस्रबाहुर विकटॊ वयाघ्राक्षः कषितिकम्पनः

It clearly says that one of the Gods was Jata in the first line. Now if you read its online English translation you will not find Jat word. He has translated in such a way that he combined Eka word with Jata to be Ekajata. So the English reader will not believe that this is used for Jat. But Sanskrit version clearly writes about Jat.

That is Why we need sanskrit shlokas from epics to prove the antiquity of Jat word. We need not to confuse ourselves.

Thanks Raviji for clarifying the things.

Regards,

smeker
July 26th, 2007, 12:51 PM
[quote=smeker;141478]

Historian getting philosophical .:)

Soko

I was interested in history of romanian Jats ,Can you share info about earliest record of them in romania ,their possible movement in to or out of romania .Other related info .Let us start a new thread .Some say that they were a part of Toccharian group that moved west .How true ?
how you sugest to name this new thread?
first ,we have to be objective and establishe if this people are realy related and is not just a name coincidence.
lets make a map of supozed related people
make a comon standartise name
saka-for central asia
jat for india
goth for denmark
get for thracia
guti for sumerian-iran-kurdistan
jass-for hungary
are posibilites that secui-szekely to be saka at origin.

vinodks
July 27th, 2007, 08:00 PM
Laxmanji,
Provide the original link from where this shloka is taken. Lets see what does Jatah stand for here. Give the link of the chapter in MBH.

-vinod


Our readers like Arun Ahlawat are right when they say they get confused in the jugglery of sansakrit shlokas while reading Jat history. I would like to say that this is bound to happen till Jat history becomes crystal clear like science.

But the problem with us is that we do not have the system of recording Jat history in the past. We have to depend on what ever has been mentioned and where ever we find. It all has to be brought on record and interpreted. Most non Jat historians say that Jats or the Jat clans are not mentioned in Indian epics like Mahabharata and Ramayana. It is because they do not have knowledge about Jat gotras and their variants. When ever any Jat clan is mentioned in these epics the historians overlook and take it to be some outsider or from the aboriginal tribes.

We know that Jats were Aryans and living in Aryavrata then they should have been mentioned in the epics. All the sanskrit shlokas prove that Jats from very ancient time were in India that included Pakistan. Sindh being the epicenter.

Even if they are mentioned for example in the following shloka from Online Mahabharata -

54 एकाक्षॊ थवाथशाक्षश च तदैवैक जटः परभुः
सहस्रबाहुर विकटॊ वयाघ्राक्षः कषितिकम्पनः

It clearly says that one of the Gods was Jata in the first line. Now if you read its online English translation you will not find Jat word. He has translated in such a way that he combined Eka word with Jata to be Ekajata. So the English reader will not believe that this is used for Jat. But Sanskrit version clearly writes about Jat.

That is Why we need sanskrit shlokas from epics to prove the antiquity of Jat word. We need not to confuse ourselves.

Thanks Raviji for clarifying the things.

Regards,

lrburdak
July 28th, 2007, 08:48 AM
Hi Vinod,

For English translation of Mahabharata on line Book 9 Ch 45 see the link -

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m09/m09045.htm

For Sanskrit to English transliteration see specifically Shloka 54, Book 9 Ch 44 which mentions Jatah Prabhu -

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/mbs/mbs09044.htm

Regards,

ravichaudhary
July 31st, 2007, 07:15 PM
Hi Vinod,

For English translation of Mahabharata on line Book 9 Ch 45 see the link -

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m09/m09045.htm

For Sanskrit to English transliteration see specifically Shloka 54, Book 9 Ch 44 which mentions Jatah Prabhu -

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/mbs/mbs09044.htm

Regards,



54 एकाक्षॊ थवाथशाक्षश च तदैवैक जटः परभुः
सहस्रबाहुर विकटॊ वयाघ्राक्षः कषितिकम्पनः


It should read;

[B]'JUT" prabhu" not" jatah Prabhu
"

the phonetic sound is " Jut" as in " But" certainly not ' Jatah"


Ravi Chaudhary''


Luxmanji

Where is this word 'Jut' in the English translation, which line?

I do not see it?

Who did the Translation anyway?

lrburdak
July 31st, 2007, 08:50 PM
Raviji,

See line 56 in the middle of this English translation

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m09/m09045.htm

I reproduce that line here-

Dwadasaksha, Ekajata, Sahasravahu, Vikata, Vyaghraksha, Kshitikampana, Punyanaman, Sunaman, Suvaktra, Priyadarsana,

The standard transliteration of जट in Sanskrit is Jata. 'h' is put for ः So जट+ः=जटः which is Jatah. It is noun and is for Jat god.

Here in English translation mistake is that 'Ek' which should come with 'tadaiv' has been added with Jata, making it Ekajata. Here it is missed from net searches.

lrburdak
August 1st, 2007, 10:34 AM
Takhar (ताखर) is gotra of Jats found in Districts Ganganagar, Jhunjhunu, Sikar and Jaipur in Rajasthan. They are also in Bhopal and Mandsaur districts in Madhya Pradesh & Narnaul and Mahendergarh in Haryana. Takhar is also a province in Afghanistan.

History

Bhim Singh Dahiya[1] mentions about this clan. In ancient past they were also known as Tokhar or Tusar. Markandeya Purana mentions them with Kambojas, Barbaras and Chinas and are called Vahyāto Narāh, i.e. "outside people".[2] This shows that they were not still considered Indian at the time of Markandeya Purana. Mahabharata mentions Tukhāras as well as Tusaras. Tuśārs are mentioned by the Vāyu Purāna. [3] There it is clear that Tukhars and Tuśārs were different. That is why we have Takhars as well as Tusar clans among the Jats. Mahabharata places them beyond the Himalayas and correctly so. Takhara has been mentioned in Salya Parva of Mahabharata as one of the names of those combatants armed with diverse weapons and clad in diverse kinds of robes and ornaments, that Skanda procured at his ceremony of investiture. Harivansha mentions them with Sakas, Pahlavas, and others and they are branded as Mlecchas - another proof of their Centra Asian origin and conquering nature. But the Greek writer Strabo has only praise them, in spite of the fact that they had destroyed the Greek kingdoms of Bactria. Says he:

"The best known as the nomad tribes are those who drove away the Greeks out of Bactria, the Asi, the Pasiani, the Tochri and Śacarauli, who came from the country on the other side of Jaxartes...[4], [5]

Here Asi are another name of the Sakas (Asiagh Jats, Asik, Arsika); the Pasiani has been rightly corrected as Kusiani (the Kushanas), and Tochri are the Takhar, and Sacarauli are the Sakaravakas of Puranas. Lassen, identifies Tochares with the Tukhars and locates them in north Hindukush. [6], [7]

Their role in the history of Kashmir in 9/10th century is important. The Tokhars are an important clan with a brilliant past. Their clan gave their name to a language (Tokhari), to a country (Tokharistan). They seem to have come to India in the second century BC to second century AD.[8]

Bhim Singh Dahiya mentions about Takhar Jats in Sindh at the time of attack in 712 AD. They have been mentioned as Buddhist rulers of Siwistan. They made peace with Mohmad bin Qasim. Their ruler at that time was Kaka, son of Kotal and the grandson of Bhandargu Bhangu, a Jat of Bhangu clan. Qasim then asked Kaka, "Oh, Chief of Hind, what is your mode of bestowing honour?" Kaka replied, "Granting a seat, and investing with a garment of silk, and tying a turban round the head. It is the custom of our ancestors, the Jat Samanis". (Here the word Samani stands for the Buddhists, showing thereby that the Jats were Buddhist at that time). Another Jat, Banana son of Hanzala also came to the side of Qasim and Takhar Jats under Moka, son of Bisaya were brought before Qasim, who treated them with kindness and respect. A grand umbrella surmounted by a peacock, a chair and a robe of honour were bestowed upon him. All his Takhars were favoured with robes and saddled horses. Historians relate that the first umbrella of Rāṇagi, or chiefship, which he gave, was this to Moka.[9] Here it should be noted that like the Rai, Rana is also a title meaning chief. It should also be noted that these Takhar Jats were honourably given saddled horses by Mohmad bin Qasim.[10]

Distribution in Rajasthan

Locations in Jaipur district - Khatipura, Kisangarh, Renwal, Chomu, Badhal,

Villages in Sikar district - Balu Baba Ki Dhani, Maganpura (Dantaramgarh),

Villages in Jhunjhunu district - Narhar,

Distribution in Madhya Pradesh

Found in Madhya Pradesh in Bhopal, [Mandsaur]] districts.

Villages in Mandsaur district - Betikheri, Bugalia (Gujarda), Kacharia Jat, Laduna (Sitamau), Malhargarh, Mandsaur, Mandsaur, Nataram (Sitamau), Pipalkhuta, Ralayta (Multanpura), Ranayra (Sitamau),

Notable persons from this gotra

* Bajrang Lal Takhar
* Dharmpal Takhar
* Karan S. Takhar

References

1. ↑ Bhim Singh Dahiya, Jats the Ancient Rulers, p. 272-273
2. ↑ LVII, 39
3. ↑ XIV, 118
4. ↑ Strabo, XI, 151
5. ↑ Bhim Singh Dahiya, Jats the Ancient Rulers, p. 273
6. ↑ B C Law, op. cit., p. 396
7. ↑ Bhim Singh Dahiya, Jats the Ancient Rulers, p. 273
8. ↑ Bhim Singh Dahiya, Jats the Ancient Rulers, p. 273
9. ↑ Elliot and Dowson: History of India as told by its Own Historians, Vol. I, p. 165
10. ↑ Bhim Singh Dahiya, Jats the Ancient Rulers, p. 215
**************************
Note - This article is also available on Jatlan Wiki at URL

http://www.jatland.com/home/Takhar

prashantacmet
August 1st, 2007, 03:04 PM
Budrak ji.....great compilation...........it seems u have dedicated ur life to serach out the Jat History..............our community needs such crazy personality like u...............hat off 4 u...................na to aaj kaal iss site pai saarre burger khawa lag re majhe to..............ROOKKKA@@@@@@@@@burger

cooljat
August 1st, 2007, 03:58 PM
Burdak Uncle,
Salutations to u!!

Thanx a ton for this really enlighting information about my gotra Takhar!!!
I've been searchin since long to know a bit more about Takhar history!!
Finally, as expected ur the one who enlighted me with this really rare info.

I'm really glad to learn about my gotra's glorious history!!!

Thanks a lot....we are proud of u!!

keep diggin the history!!

warm regards!!!


Rock on
Jit



Takhar (ताखर) is gotra of Jats found in Districts Ganganagar, Jhunjhunu, Sikar and Jaipur in Rajasthan. They are also in Bhopal and Mandsaur districts in Madhya Pradesh & Narnaul and Mahendergarh in Haryana. Takhar is also a province in Afghanistan.

History

Bhim Singh Dahiya[1] mentions about this clan. In ancient past they were also known as Tokhar or Tusar. Markandeya Purana mentions them with Kambojas, Barbaras and Chinas and are called Vahyāto Narāh, i.e. "outside people".[2] This shows that they were not still considered Indian at the time of Markandeya Purana. Mahabharata mentions Tukhāras as well as Tusaras. Tuśārs are mentioned by the Vāyu Purāna. [3] There it is clear that Tukhars and Tuśārs were different. That is why we have Takhars as well as Tusar clans among the Jats. Mahabharata places them beyond the Himalayas and correctly so. Takhara has been mentioned in Salya Parva of Mahabharata as one of the names of those combatants armed with diverse weapons and clad in diverse kinds of robes and ornaments, that Skanda procured at his ceremony of investiture. Harivansha mentions them with Sakas, Pahlavas, and others and they are branded as Mlecchas - another proof of their Centra Asian origin and conquering nature. But the Greek writer Strabo has only praise them, in spite of the fact that they had destroyed the Greek kingdoms of Bactria. Says he:

"The best known as the nomad tribes are those who drove away the Greeks out of Bactria, the Asi, the Pasiani, the Tochri and Śacarauli, who came from the country on the other side of Jaxartes...[4], [5]

Here Asi are another name of the Sakas (Asiagh Jats, Asik, Arsika); the Pasiani has been rightly corrected as Kusiani (the Kushanas), and Tochri are the Takhar, and Sacarauli are the Sakaravakas of Puranas. Lassen, identifies Tochares with the Tukhars and locates them in north Hindukush. [6], [7]

Their role in the history of Kashmir in 9/10th century is important. The Tokhars are an important clan with a brilliant past. Their clan gave their name to a language (Tokhari), to a country (Tokharistan). They seem to have come to India in the second century BC to second century AD.[8]

Bhim Singh Dahiya mentions about Takhar Jats in Sindh at the time of attack in 712 AD. They have been mentioned as Buddhist rulers of Siwistan. They made peace with Mohmad bin Qasim. Their ruler at that time was Kaka, son of Kotal and the grandson of Bhandargu Bhangu, a Jat of Bhangu clan. Qasim then asked Kaka, "Oh, Chief of Hind, what is your mode of bestowing honour?" Kaka replied, "Granting a seat, and investing with a garment of silk, and tying a turban round the head. It is the custom of our ancestors, the Jat Samanis". (Here the word Samani stands for the Buddhists, showing thereby that the Jats were Buddhist at that time). Another Jat, Banana son of Hanzala also came to the side of Qasim and Takhar Jats under Moka, son of Bisaya were brought before Qasim, who treated them with kindness and respect. A grand umbrella surmounted by a peacock, a chair and a robe of honour were bestowed upon him. All his Takhars were favoured with robes and saddled horses. Historians relate that the first umbrella of Rāṇagi, or chiefship, which he gave, was this to Moka.[9] Here it should be noted that like the Rai, Rana is also a title meaning chief. It should also be noted that these Takhar Jats were honourably given saddled horses by Mohmad bin Qasim.[10]

Distribution in Rajasthan

Locations in Jaipur district - Khatipura, Kisangarh, Renwal, Chomu, Badhal,

Villages in Sikar district - Balu Baba Ki Dhani, Maganpura (Dantaramgarh),

Villages in Jhunjhunu district - Narhar,

Distribution in Madhya Pradesh

Found in Madhya Pradesh in Bhopal, [Mandsaur]] districts.

Villages in Mandsaur district - Betikheri, Bugalia (Gujarda), Kacharia Jat, Laduna (Sitamau), Malhargarh, Mandsaur, Mandsaur, Nataram (Sitamau), Pipalkhuta, Ralayta (Multanpura), Ranayra (Sitamau),

Notable persons from this gotra

* Bajrang Lal Takhar
* Dharmpal Takhar
* Karan S. Takhar

References

1. ↑ Bhim Singh Dahiya, Jats the Ancient Rulers, p. 272-273
2. ↑ LVII, 39
3. ↑ XIV, 118
4. ↑ Strabo, XI, 151
5. ↑ Bhim Singh Dahiya, Jats the Ancient Rulers, p. 273
6. ↑ B C Law, op. cit., p. 396
7. ↑ Bhim Singh Dahiya, Jats the Ancient Rulers, p. 273
8. ↑ Bhim Singh Dahiya, Jats the Ancient Rulers, p. 273
9. ↑ Elliot and Dowson: History of India as told by its Own Historians, Vol. I, p. 165
10. ↑ Bhim Singh Dahiya, Jats the Ancient Rulers, p. 215
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Note - This article is also available on Jatlan Wiki at URL

http://www.jatland.com/home/Takhar

narenderkharb
August 1st, 2007, 09:52 PM
Takhar (ताखर) is gotra of Jats found in Districts Ganganagar, Jhunjhunu, Sikar and Jaipur in Rajasthan.

Bhim Singh Dahiya mentions about Takhar Jats in Sindh at the time of attack in 712 AD. They have been mentioned as Buddhist rulers of Siwistan. They made peace with Mohmad bin Qasim. Their ruler at that time was Kaka, son of Kotal and the grandson of Bhandargu Bhangu, a Jat of Bhangu clan. Qasim then asked Kaka, "Oh, Chief of Hind, what is your mode of bestowing honour?" Kaka replied, "Granting a seat, and investing with a garment of silk, and tying a turban round the head. It is the custom of our ancestors, the Jat Samanis". (Here the word Samani stands for the Buddhists, showing thereby that the Jats were Buddhist at that time). Another Jat, Banana son of Hanzala also came to the side of Qasim and Takhar Jats under Moka, son of Bisaya were brought before Qasim, who treated them with kindness and respect. A grand umbrella surmounted by a peacock, a chair and a robe of honour were bestowed upon him. All his Takhars were favoured with robes and saddled horses. Historians relate that the first umbrella of Rāṇagi, or chiefship, which he gave, was this to Moka.[9] Here it should be noted that like the Rai, Rana is also a title meaning chief. It should also be noted that these Takhar Jats were honourably given saddled horses by Mohmad bin Qasim.[10]



Laxman Ji


Dahiya Saheb has made certain basic mistakes if he wrote this in his book.

Moka was an enemy of Jats rather a jat himself .

Kaka Kotal may or may not be a Jat ,Though English historian proclaim him Jat

but I doubt that as when Jat army went in the night to make a surprise attack on Kasim and lost its way ,he didn't accompany them instead went to Kasim in the morning and told plan of Jats.

I didn't read about Takhar clan of Samanis ,Can you clarify how he knew that ?

lrburdak
August 4th, 2007, 10:26 AM
Narenderji,

It is well known that Some Jats in Sindh supported and others opposed the Mohmad bin Qasim. So there seems no error by Bhim Singh Dahiya. Thakur Deshraj has mentioned Kaka as Rajput. Probably he is mistaken. In fact some where it is mentioned Thakur word is derived from Takhar which changed to Thakar. In fact in western Rajasthani language we call Thakur as Thakar. Takhars thus seem to be the first Jats who converted to Thakur or Rajputs. My above description based on Dahiya supports this.

lrburdak
August 5th, 2007, 08:56 PM
Manda (मंडा) gotra Jats are found in Jaipur, Pali, Nagaur, Kota, Bhilwara districts in Rajasthan. 95 % people of Dhadharia Kalan village in Nagaur district are Manda gotra Jats. The mother of Nathuram Mirdha was a Manda Jat of this village.


The Mandas in Iran - The First Historical Empire of Jats

The ancient Mandas are even now a clan of the Jats in India. It is they who gave the first Historical Empire of the Jats in the western Plateau of Iran. They are named in the Puranas also. The Visnu Purana mentions them as Mandakas. By removing the Suffix “ ka” the name appears in its old and present form. A country called Mandavya is mentioned in the Agni Purana. [1] Sankhyana Aranyaka, too mentions these people and so does Varahamihira, who, in his Samhita, locates them in the north, as well as the northwest of India. Madaiya is their Persian name. [2]


In the last quarter of the eighth century B.C., the area of Azerbaijan to the south of Lake Urmia was inhabited by various Jat clans. The two clans whose names had come down in history are called the Mannai and the Mandas. These two clans are nowadays called in India as the Manns and the Mandas. In 720 B.C. or so, the Assyrian King, Sargon II, attacked these people and the Assyrians captured their chief called Dayaukku. He was a Manda chief and perhaps nature took a hand in saving his life, because contrary to the Assyrian custom, his life was not only spared but he was sent, along with his family to Hamath. Thus it seems that before the last decade of the eighth century B.C. they were acknowledging the suzerainty of Assyria and it is mentioned that 22 of their chiefs swore the oath of allegiance before Sargon II. The name of their chief if given as Deiokes, son of Phraortes by Herodotus and other Greek writers. As per History of Persia, he was the same as the chief named by the Assyrians as Dayaukku. His name may well be Devaka because the suffix ‘s’ or ‘us’ is generally added to personal names by the Greeks. It was Devaka, who established the first empire of the Manda Jats in about 700 B.C. The later Achaemenian empire was an offshoot of Manda empire, because Cyrus the great, was an offshoot of Manda empire, because Cyrus the great , was son of Mandani, a daughter of the last Manda emperor. Cyrus the Great was an Achaemenid Persian, son of the local Persian king Cambyses I of Anshan and the Manda princess Mandane of Manda clan, who was the daughter of Astyages, the last Manda emperor.[3] Before he united the Persians and Mandas under a single empire, he was the ruler of Anshān, then a vassal kingdom of the Median Empire, in what is now part of Fars Province in southern Iran. The name of the queen was Aryenis (skt. Aryani), [4]


The Manda Empire

Up to the nineteenth century, this brilliant empire was called the “ Empire of the Medes” . It was so called by the Greek writers as well as in the Old Testament. The country of the Medes, called Media was the northwestern neighbour of the Mandas - the actual name of the empire builders. Even Media was eventually annexed to the empire of Manda. This was perhaps the reason of the serious mistake of history where the Mandas and the Medes were confused with each other. The Medes were traders of Greek stock and were living in small principalities. They never had any empire. Confounding the brave Mandas with the effete Medes was the most unfortunate event in history. The mistake became so prevalent that even a proverb was invented in English equal to the effect that a certain thing is as unchangeable as the laws of Medes and Persians. The mistake was detected when the monuments of Nabonodus and Cyrus were unearthed. It was then discovered that the whole history was based upon a philological mistake. It was found that the name of the empire and its people, was not Medes but Manda. [5]


The founder of the empire, Deiokes, hereinafter mentioned as Devaka, immediately formed a powerful army. When the country was secure, he decided to build his capital for which the mighty granite range of mount Alvanda was selected and at a height of 6,000 ft. above sea level the capital of Ecbatana was built. Its present site is the eastern part of modern Hamadan. [6]


After this preparations Devaka started expansion of his empire. The Assyrians could never have dreamt that this mountain shepherd at no distant date, would sack the great Nineveh and cause the name of Assyria to disappear from amongst the nations of the world. The adjoining areas were annexed to the Manda Empire and after consolidating it for 50 years, Devaka was succeeded by his son Fravarti, the Phraortes of the Greeks in 655 B.C. The Persians were the first to be conquered. Gaining more than self-confidence from their successes, the Mandas attacked the Assyrian empire but were defeated and Fravarti himself was killed.

Assurbanipal died in 626 B.C. and his successors were disputing the throne. Such an opportunity was not to be lost and second attack of Nineveh began. The Assyrian Emperor burnt himself in his palace and perished with his family. Thus in 606 B.C. Nineveh fell and so utter was its ruin that the Assyrian name was forgotten and the history of their empire soon melted into fable. [7]


Armenia and Cappadocia were including in the Manda Empire. Lydia was emerging as a powerful nation in the west and it was inevitable that the two powers should collide. The war began but in 585 B.C. when there was a total eclipse of the sun, it was stopped after six years of fighting, under a peace treaty. A daughter of the Lydian emperor was marred to the heir apparent of Manda, and the kingdom Urartu was annexed to Manda empire. Next year, i.e. 584 B.C. this great emperor died. Thus from a beaten nation he raised the Mandas into the most powerful and virile empire of that time. It is aptly stated that the east was Semitic when he began to rule but it was Aryan when he stopped. This leader in one of the great moments in history was succeeded by Ishtuvegu, Astyages of the Greeks. He was an unworthy son of a worthy father and he deviated from the basic policy of the Mandas,.i.e. to keep fit and ready for war. He had no son and his daughter named Mandani (after the clan name) was married to a small vassal prince of Elam. [8]


The first issued of princess Mandani was Cyrus who became the emperor, after putting in prison his maternal grandfather, Ishtuvegu. Three battles were fought, as per traditions preserved by the classical writers, before Ecbatana itself fell in 550 B.C. Cyrus was emperor of persia and had inherited the empire of the Mandas., which was further extended by him. But this does not mean that efforts were not made to recover the lost empire. We hear that Cyrus himself fought wars against the Jats in Balakh and the Caspian sea. At both the places he was unsuccessful. Balakh remained under the Kangs, and the small kingdom of the Massagate ruled over by the Dahias, remained free and independent. The king of the Massagate kingdom was Armogha and his queen was simply called Tomyris which is a Scythian word, Tomuri, meaning queen. The king had died and the queen had taken the administration in her hands when Cyrus the Great asked her to marry him. [9]


The queen gathered her force and the battle which followed was most ferocious. On both sides there were Jats, and they fought to the finish. Herodotus says that of all the wars of antiquity, this was the most bloody. The Jats gained complete and final victory. Cyrus himself was killed. His body was searched and recovered from the battlefield. [10]


Thus we see that many Jat kingdoms in the north and east were free of the Persian empire which was an offshoot of the earlier Manda Jat empire. The defeat of Cyrus the Great and his death was a signal for the Jats under Persian Empire to take up the throne of Ecbatana. This was done by the Jats under their leader Gaumata. In the meantime Darius came and this second empire lasted for only six months because conspirators in the pay of Darius killed Gaumata in the Sokhyavati palace of Ecbatana. Darius wrote in his inscriptions; “Ahurmazda made myself emperor. Our dynasty had lost the empire but I restored it to its original position. I re-established sacred places destroyed by Magas. These Magas were the Magian priests of the Jat emperors who came to India along with them, as a result of war. They were called in India the Magas. The Taga Brahmans on the Yamuna river are their descendants. They are the Tagazgez of Masoudi. [11], [12]


But the efforts did not cease there. In 519 BC Phravarti, another Manda follower of the Sun god of the Magi priests, fought for the lost empire. The Virks revolted in Hyrcania. But Darius, aptly called great, suppressed them and except lands on the frontiers of the empire. The Kangs remained free in north of Oxus river; and the Scythian Jats on the Danube were free. Infact, Darius, too attacked these invincible people with very large army and huge preparations of every short. At last Darius ordered on immediate withdrawal and returned to Persia. [13]

lrburdak
August 5th, 2007, 08:59 PM
Mandas and other Jats came to India

It was a result of these wars that the first migration of the Jats took place and from the Manda Empire and from other parts of Central Asia they came to India. That is why Panini mentioned many cities of theirs in the heart of Punjab in the fifth century B.C. But memories die hard. Even today, we have our villages named after the cities lost in Iran. The names like Elam, Bhatona, Susana, Baga, Kharkhoda (Manda Kurukada), etc, are still the names of Jat village. It is these Jats whom Buddha Prakash Calls, “ exotic and outlandish people” who came to Indian at the time of successors of Cyrus, [14] and whom Jean Przyluski calls the Bahlikas from Iran and Central Aisa. [15], [16]

Mandas in Sixth century

Mandas in the later period are found settled in Punjab and Sindh in sixth/seventh centuries AD. Ibn Haukal says that “the infidels who inhabited Sindh, are called Budha and Mand.” “The Mands dwell on the banks of Mihran (Sindhu) river. From the boundary of Multan to the sea… They form a large population. [17], [18]

Distribution of Mand Jats in India
Locations in Jaipur city - Barkat Nagar, Lalkothi, Mansarowar Colony,
Locations in Delhi city - 160, Pacshim Vihar,

Villages in Pali district - Mandiyan,

Villages in Nagaur district - Anesaria (sardi), Dhadharia Kalan,

Villages in Kota district - Kota,

Villages in Bhilwara district - Bhilwara,

Villages in Churu district - Manniwali,

Notable persons from this clan - Nathuram Mirdha's mother was a Manda Jat of Dhadharia Kalan village in Nagaur district in Rajasthan.

References

1. ↑ Indian History Quarterly, IX, P. 476
2. ↑ Bhim Singh Dahiya, Jats the Ancient Rulers, p. 127
3. ↑ Suren-Pahlav, Sh., Cyrus The Great; The Liberator, ; Retrieved January 12, 2007
4. ↑ Bhim Singh Dahiya, Jats the Ancient Rulers, p. 128
5. ↑ Bhim Singh Dahiya, Jats the Ancient Rulers, p. 128
6. ↑ Bhim Singh Dahiya, Jats the Ancient Rulers, p. 129
7. ↑ Bhim Singh Dahiya, Jats the Ancient Rulers, p. 130
8. ↑ Bhim Singh Dahiya, Jats the Ancient Rulers, p. 131
9. ↑ Bhim Singh Dahiya, Jats the Ancient Rulers, p. 131
10. ↑ Bhim Singh Dahiya, Jats the Ancient Rulers, p. 133
11. ↑ Journal of Bombay Branch of Royal Asiatic Society, 1914, p. 563
12. ↑ Bhim Singh Dahiya, Jats the Ancient Rulers, p. 133
13. ↑ Bhim Singh Dahiya, Jats the Ancient Rulers, p. 134
14. ↑ Buddha Prakash, Studies in Indian History and Civilisations, P. 35
15. ↑ Journal Asiatique, 1926 , pp.11-13
16. ↑ Bhim Singh Dahiya, Jats the Ancient Rulers, p. 135
17. ↑ Elliot and Dowson, op. cit., Vol. I, p. 38
18. ↑ Bhim Singh Dahiya, Jats the Ancient Rulers, p. 136
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Note - The article is available on Jat Land Wiki at URL -

http://www.jatland.com/home/Manda

lrburdak
August 28th, 2007, 07:05 PM
Munda (मुण्ड) or Moond (मूंड) is a clan of Jats found in Rajasthan, Punjab and Haryana states in India. They live in Districts Jhunjhunu, Sikar, Bikaner, Barmer, Jaipur, Hanumangarh and Jodhpur in Rajasthan.

Mundas the rulers in Magadha

Bhim Singh Dahiya has mentioned about the rule of Munda people in Magadha. The inscriptional evidences show that Jat rulers and tribes in north India from Kabul to Cuttack, in the period following the disintegration of Kushanas empire. Particularly Magadha area was under the rule of people who had the title, Murunda. They are admitted to be Sakas or Scythians. [1]

The Geographike of Ptolemy says that in 140 AD, the Murundas were established in the valley of the river Sarabos or Sarayu. [2] Half a century later, Oppien mentions the "Muruandien" as a Gangetic people. [3] S R Goyal quotes several other Jain authorities to show that Patliputra in particular, as well as Kanyakubja were ruled by Murundas/Sakas. The Jain ascetic, Padlipta Suri, cured the Murunda ruler of Patliputra of terrible headache and converted him to Jainism. [4] During the reign of Wu dynasty (220 - 227 AD) Fan Chen, the King of Kambodia, according to PC Bagchi sent his relative as ambassador to the Indian King of Patliputra. The ambassador was heartily welcomed and the gesture was returned by the Indian king who sent two men as ambassador as well as four horses of the Yue-chi i.e. the Jat country, as presents to the King of Kambodia. According to this account Buddhism was in prosperous state at that time in Magadha and the title of the king was Meouloun. This title has been identified with Murunda and this shows that in the middle of third century AD the Murundas were still ruling over Patliputra. [5] These Murunda rulers of Patliputra had special relations with Peshawar. It was but natural, for, after all Murundas and Kushanas both belonged to the same Scithian stock. [6]

From this it is clear that racially the rulers of Magadha in the third century AD were identical with Kushanas, ruling Afghanistan. In the Puranas they are mentioned as ruling India after the Tukharas (Takhar Jats) and Puranas also say that 13 kings of Murunda dynasty ruled India. It is significant that the Puranas also mention that these Murunda rulers destroyed the caste system and, in the language of Purans, they raised "low caste people" to high offices and all these people were of "Mleccha" origin. The Vishnu Purana correctly gives the clan name of these people as Munda - a still existing Jat clan. The title Murunda means "Lord", in Saka language, as per Sten Konow. [7]

Thus the literary evidence and evidence of Puranas shows that immediately before the Guptas, the Mundas were ruling over Magadha and their rule lasted for about two centuries, by taking 15 years for one rule. It is unfortunate that none of the thirteen rulers, is even named in the Indian history. This is really a pity for the Indian historians. Apparently, all this was deliberately done to remove all traces of the rule of the Jats which lasted for many centuries in all parts of India. It is possible that the Puranas, which were revised during or after the Gupta age, deliberately excluded details of these Jat rulers. [8]

Thus inscriptional as well as the literary and Puranic evidence shows that various Jat clans ruling in North India. The Varikas, the Mauryas, the Mundas, the Kushanas, the Taanks, etc. are of them. Various other clans having republic governments, mentioned in the Allahabad Pillar inscription of Samudragupta, are still existing Jat clans. This clear picture of different Jat clans ruling in different parts of north India is striking and can not be ignored by any writer of Indian history. [9]

Origin

According to the bard of this dynasty king Gaj of Ghazni had two sons named Mangal Rao and Masur Rao. Mangal Rao was the ruler of Lahore and Masur Rao of Sialkot. Foreign invaders drove both of them out of their kingdoms. Masur Rao fled away to the deserts of Rajasthan. He had two sons named Abhai Rao and Saran Rao. Descendants of Abhai Rao came to be called Bhurhya Bhatti and those of Saran Rao, Saran. Mangal Rao had six sons, named Mojam Rao, Gulrish, Moolraj, Sheoraj, Kewl Rao and Phul Rao. Descendants of Gulrish came to be called Gloraya or Kiliraya, those of Moolraj, Munda and those Sheoraj, Sheoran. Descendants of Kewal Rao and Phul Rao adopted pottery as their profession and were called Kumhar. [10]


Ramesh Chandra Gunarthi [11], in his book "Rajasthani Jatiyon ki Khoj" (1977), has mentioned about the origin of this gotra. One of the sons of Raja Mangal Rao Bhojsi of Bhati clan was Moonda who joined Jats. The descendants of Moonda are known as Moond. The capital of Moond Kings was at village Mandore in Jodhpur district. Some Other places connected with the history of Moonds are Munda (Churu district), Mundsar (Bikaner district), Mundara (Pali district), Mandawa (Jhunjhunu district) etc.



Distribution in Rajasthan

People belonging to Kiliraya and Munda gotras are found in Bikaner State.

Moond gotra Jats are found in Distt Jhunjhunu, Sikar, Bikaner and Jodhpur of Rajasthan.

Locations in Jaipur city - Ambabari, Khatipura, Murlipura Scheme, Vidyadhar Nagar,

Villages in Sikar district - Bhainrupura, Chaindas ki dhani, Dhani piploda, Ghassu ka Bas, Hardayalpura, Kolida, Piprali, Mandeta, Shivsinghpura, Sihot chhoti, Sikar, Sola patoda, Swami ki Dhani, Swami ki Dhani (Nechhwa)

Villages in Jhunjhunu district - Ajri Katla, Bajawa, Jakhal, Jhunjhunu, Majhau,

Villages in Barmer district - Bataru, Kekad,

Villages in Bikaner district
- Kalu, Kolayat, Ranisar,

Villages in Hanumangarh district - Amarpura-Jalukhat, Dholipal, Katheda, Kharakhera, Nagrana, Ratanpura, Sangaria,

Distribution in Punjab - Bhaguwala,

Notable persons from this gotra

* Harchand Ram Moond - Social reformer
* Ratan Lal Moond - RJS Rajasthan

References

1. ↑ Bhim Singh Dahiya, Jats: The Ancient Rulers, p.188
2. ↑ P C Bagchi, op. cit., p.133
3. ↑ S. Chatopadhyaya, Ethnic History of North India, p.117
4. ↑ S R Goyal, A history of Imperial Guptas, p. 57
5. ↑ PC Bagchi, op. cit., p. 134
6. ↑ Bhim Singh Dahiya, Jats: The Ancient Rulers, p.189
7. ↑ Bhim Singh Dahiya, Jats: The Ancient Rulers, p.189 - 190
8. ↑ Bhim Singh Dahiya, Jats: The Ancient Rulers, p.190
9. ↑ Bhim Singh Dahiya, Jats: The Ancient Rulers, p.191
10. ↑ Jat Samaj: Agra, October, 1993
11. ↑ Ramesh Chandra Gunarthi, Savar, Ajmer (1977): Rajasthani Jatiyon ki khoj

lrburdak
August 29th, 2007, 10:00 PM
Orissa state apparently seems to have no Jat connection but if we study the ancient history of Orissa we find rule of many Jat clans in Orissa. Orissa itself is derived from Odra and we have Odhran which is a Jat clan. We have Uriya as a Jat clan who ruled in Orissa. Odasi (ओडसी) is is also a gotra of Jats. They are considered descendants of Nagavansh.


Hiuen Tsang has given a vivid account of the condition of Buddhism in Orissa. He reported about the existence of three kingdoms in region -Odra, Kangoda and Kalinga. Here again Kangoda = Kang+Oda, in which Kang as well as Oda are both ancient Jat clans. Kalinga was ruled by Ashoka Maurya who was Maurya Jat. Kalinga War took place at Dhauli hills in Bhubaneswar and Dhaulya is a Jat gotra.

There are many ancient sites in Orissa named after Jat gotras, such as Jatni, Banpur, Kakudia, Narasimhapur, Balangir, Toshali. Jaina images have been excavated in many parts of Orissa, notably Bhadrak, Balasore, and Khiching in district of Mayurbhanj.


Hathigumpha inscription consists of seventeen lines incised in deep cut Brahmi letters of the 1st Century BC on the overhanging brow of a natural cavern called Hathigumpha in the southern side of the Udayagiri hill near Bhubaneswar in Orissa. It provides evidences about the Kharavela king to belonging to Jat clan. The minor inscriptions at Udaygiri hills in Bhbbaneswar provide evidences of Jat rulers belonging to Kaswan, Chalka, Lal, Burdak etc. clans.


Garhjat region in Orissa

Garhjat is the hilly area of eastern plateau in Orissa. Mayurbhanj and Keonjhar areas come under Garhjat. Many Gond tribes live in the Garhjat Hills of northern Orissa. Rourkela is an industrial city of Sundargarh district in Orissa state and is located in the Garhjat hills of eastern plateau between 20°-12’N and 84°-53’E at an altitude of 200 mt above sea level.


Maratha rule in Orissa

The Maratha administration of Orissa effectively began from the year 1751. Raghuji Bhonsle-I became the new master of the territory and a new system of government was put into operation. The Marathas divided Orissa into two broad political divisions passing under the more familiar terms as the Mughalbandi and the Garhjat. The Mughallbandi, comprising the coastal districts was divided into 150 Parganas and placed under 32 Revenue Commissioners or Amils. Each Pargana was divided into several Mahalas.

The Garhjat region covering the hill tracts of Orissa was allowed to be ruled by 24 tributary chiefs, who paid light tributes to the Maratha Government. The chiefs were bound by engagements which permitted them their autonomy. They administered their respective areas, maintained their forces and enjoyed princeship by status, but side by side, they had to respect the Maratha Raja of Nagpur as their overlord. Against possible rebellions from their side, the Marathas maintained a big force at Cuttack. In brief, the Marathas relation with the Orissa chiefs was more effective and purposive than that of the Mughals. [1]

The Feudatory State of Bamra, one of the satellite states of the Patna or Garhjat group of the lower Ganges, was founded in the middle 15th century. [2]

The state of Orissa, in east-central India along the Bay of Bengal, is another part of the Peninsular Shield., The section of Orissa seen from Landsat in Figure T-47.4 (index map to its right) consists of two physiographic areas-the Utkal Plain and the Garhjat Hills. The latter, mostly 1000 to 1200 m above sealevel, contains the Simlipal Massif, the Baitarani Uplands, and the Keonjhar Plateau. [3]

Tribal Uprising in the State of Gangpur Garhjat

The second half of 19th century was one of the most eventful periods in the history of modern Orissa and things were moving fastly for crystallizing movements of two distinct characters. While on one hand the movement for Oriya identity was taking a definite shape as a mark of protest against the high handedness of some domiciled non-oriya elites and their invasion on oriya language and culture, on the other hand, discontents smouldering among the people against the oppressive Garhjat administration was heading towards a conflagration. Gangpur, which was the fourth biggest of the eleven, 'A' class states of Orissa, experienced a violent uprising of the tribal peasants in the year 1897. It may be noted here that in the process of the integration of princely states, the present district of Sundargarh was formed with the merger of two states namely Bonai and Gangpur Garhjat States. The exploitation of the subjects in the erstwhile GangpurGarhjat were rooted in various types of feudal extractions like Bethi, Bethi, Magan, Rasad, Karchawl, in addition to the land revenue collected at exorbitant rates. [4]

References

1. ↑ http://og.csm.co.in/ogv8/orissaprofile/history8.asp?img=history History of Orissa on Orissa Government Portal
2. ↑ http://www.princelystates.com/ArchivedFeatures/fa-02-02.shtml Archived article from the January 2001 issue of Princely States Report
3. ↑ http://disc.gsfc.nasa.gov/geomorphology/GEO_2/GEO_PLATE_T-47.shtml NASA
4. ↑ http://orissagov.nic.in/e-magazine/Orissareview/jan-2007/engpdf/64-67.pdf. Dr. Pravat K. MallickMadri Kalo and the First Tribal Uprising in the State of Gangpur Garhjat

psgahlaut
September 12th, 2007, 09:04 PM
go 4 jats in world epics & try 4 draculla

I met some Jats in Rajasthan who never knew that Jats ever existed/exist beyond their district. But they were daring like anything.

Burdakji

enough posts you have sent about Jats. Its enough data. But now you should start analysing, why Jats are backward today n lacking in history? did they really deserve so?

why?????
regards

lrburdak
October 6th, 2007, 02:14 PM
S K Tomar is the winner of National Unity Award-2007. He is Managing Director of Hotel Solitaire. The award was given to him by National Unity Conference, New Delhi, on the occasion of Seminar organized on 19 August 2007 on the subject of National Harmony. This is very prestigious award. [1]

Reference

1. ↑ Jat Bandhu, 25 September 2007

lrburdak
October 7th, 2007, 10:25 PM
The Trigartas (त्रिगर्ता) were ancient tribes of Mahabharata period which gave rise to many Jat clans.

In different section of the Mahabharata the number of the Trigarta brothers goes on increasing from one to five and then to six. It appears that at the time of the final redaction of the Mahabharata the tradition of the six important clans of the Trigartās was well established. It is carious to note that in connection with the application of a suffix Panini makes a reference to the Damini group and the six Trigartas (दामन्यादि त्रिगर्तसष्टाच्छ: v.3.116). On the basis of an ancient verse the Kasika commentary names these as Kauṇḍoparastha (कौण्डोपरस्थ) , Dāṇḍakī (दाण्डकी) Krauṣṭakī (क्रौष्टकी), Jālamāni (जालमानि), Brahmagupta (ब्रह्मगुप्त), and Jānaki (जानकि). These communities mentioned in the grammatical literature can be identified with such Jat Gotra names as

(1) Damal , Damara, Damas, Dhami, Dhamora

(2) Kundu, Kadwasra, Kandoli, Kondal, Kont, Konth

(3) Dangi,

(4) Khanda, Khandaulia, Khandel, Khandia Khandaya, Khodiwal,

(5) Jali,

(6) Brahman, Brahma, Brahmayan and

(7) Janar, Janvar, Janak, Janal, Janar, Janawa .[1]

Location of Trigartas

The Mahabharata Book 2: Sabha Parva SECTION XXXI locates them along with Dasarnas, the Sivis, the Amvashtas, the Malavas, the five tribes of the Karnatas around Rohtak in Haryana as under:

शैरीषकं महेच्छं च वशे चक्रे महाथ्युतिः

शिबींस त्रिगर्तान अम्बष्ठान मालवान पञ्च कर्पटान ।। 6 ।।

Vaisampayana said,--"I shall now recite to you the deeds and triumphs of Nakula, and how that exalted one conquered the direction that had once been subjugated by Vasudeva. The intelligent Nakula, surrounded by a large host, set out from Khandavaprastha for the west, making this earth tremble with the shouts and the leonine roars of the warriors and the deep rattle of chariot wheels. And the hero first assailed the mountainous country called Rohitaka that was dear unto (the celestial generalissimo) Kartikeya and which was delightful and prosperous and full of kine and every kind of wealth and produce. And the encounter the son of Pandu had with the Mattamyurakas of that country was fierce. And the illustrious Nakula after this, subjugated the whole of the desert country and the region known as Sairishaka full of plenty, as also that other one called Mahetta. And the hero had a fierce encounter with the royal sage Akrosa. And the son of Pandu left that part of the country having subjugated the Dasarnas, the Sivis, the Trigartas, the Amvashtas, the Malavas, the five tribes of the Karnatas, and those twice born classes that were called the Madhyamakeyas and Vattadhanas. And making circuitous journey that bull among men then conquered the (Mlechcha) tribes called the Utsava-sanketas."[2]

The Trigartas have been variously located which shows that they had several settlements. The puranas call them the inhabitants of hills (Parvatāśrayinaḥ) (पर्वताश्रयिनः). The Bṛhatsamhitā locates them in the uttārapatha [3]. According to the Abhidhānachintānaṇi, Trigarta corresponds to Jālandhara(जालन्धरास्त्रिगर्ताःस्युः). The description of the Virat parva makes us believe that they were the northern neighbours of the Matsya Janapada (i.e. Bairat) and must have been living somewhere in modern Hissar. Reference to them are found in such later works as the Sarasvatīkaṇṭhābharaṇa (IV. 2.87) Goṇaratnamahodadhi (v.144) and Abhidhāna Chinatāmaṇi (p.382) [4]

Trigarta literally means three pits, valleys or settlements and also the people living there. In ancient period people were named after areas and areas also got the names of people. Therefore the word garta (गर्त) is significant and requires examination. The normal Prakrit formation from garta would be gatla or gaṭṭa but jarta or Jaṭṭa is also possible. The philologists are of the view that the Indo-European language had a frontal ee which change to ē in greek and a in Sanskrit and due to this change k and g got changed in sanskrit to their corresponding palatals e.g. Greek Genos, sanskrit Jana. This phenomena is called the Law of palatals. The change form K and g to C and J can also be seen in such Sanskrit words as Cakāra, Jagāma. One may therefore presume two formations garta and Jarta existing side by side. Whereas garta is available in the Rigveda and later Sanskrit works Jarta existed in dialect. One should not think that the emergence of dialects is a late phenomenon. The philologists opine that already in the Indo-European period the parent language was divided people in dialects. [5]

The Trigartas were an ancient people closely associated with the Sibis, Yaudheyas and other groups and belonged to the Āyudhajīvī Samgha at the time of Panini. Their location in Hissar as suggested be the Virat Parva is pointer to the fact that they were the part of the people among whom the Yaudheya clan had excelled. When the political centres are destroyed by the powerful adversaries, new leadership springs up form the masses and with them come up new names for leadership. In such a situation , the word Jarta, an oblique form of gart, appears to have come in prominence. From Jarta ot Jaṭṭa and then, under the Law of Moves', Jāṭ is a normal linguistic formation. [6]

To sum up the results of the present study, it must be stressed that the Jats belong to the proto-vedic Aryan stock. But being on the periphery of the Madhyadesa, the cradle of vedic culture, they did not undergo the social transformation on the line of varna system and monarchical political organization. The power of decision making remained with elders and clan organizations described in literature as Jeṣṭha Vṛiddha, Samsad or Sabha. A few ancestors of Jats have been named in this study and others are waiting for a comprehensive study. [7]

References

1. ↑ Maheswari Prasad, “Jats in Ancient India”:The Jats, Ed. Dr Vir Singh, Vol.I, p. 26
2. ↑ [Mahabharata Sabha Parva on Jatland Wiki
3. ↑ Bṛhatsamhitā XIV. 25
4. ↑ Maheswari Prasad, “Jats in Ancient India”:The Jats, Ed. Dr Vir Singh, Vol.I, p. 26
5. ↑ Maheswari Prasad, “Jats in Ancient India”:The Jats, Ed. Dr Vir Singh, Vol.I, p. 27
6. ↑ Maheswari Prasad, “Jats in Ancient India”:The Jats, Ed. Dr Vir Singh, Vol.I, p. 27
7. ↑ Maheswari Prasad, “Jats in Ancient India”:The Jats, Ed. Dr Vir Singh, Vol.I, p. 27