Gotra Issue...is this 21st century

[chhillar]

Villagers put up nakas on gotra issue
Raman Mohan
Tribune News Service

Badhra (Bhiwani), December 19
The row over the marriage of a boy of Poonia gotra of Jevali village to a girl with maternal links to Sheoran gotra on December 10 took a serious turn today with villagers putting up nakas around the village to prevent any member of the boy’s family from leaving or entering the village. Although the entire family of Hawa Singh, the boy’s father, has already migrated from the village to an unknown place after last Sunday’s panchayat which expelled the Poonia family from the village for life, the panchayat members feared the Poonias might enter the village in a police vehicle.
A police picket continues to guard the locked house of the Poonias in the village. Police parties also patrolled the village and its surrounding areas. Villagers checked every police vehicle passing through the nakas around the village.
The villagers set up nakas following the registration of a criminal case against eight villagers following the panchayat meeting. They were booked under Sections 147, 149, 323, 324, 541 and 506 of the IPC. The incensed villagers, fearing arrest, threatened to court arrest if any of the eight were picked up by the police.
The row erupted after the marriage of Hawa Singh’s son Ombir Singh to Saroj on December 10. The bride hails from a family in which a close female relative belongs to Sheoran gotra. The villagers met Hawa Singh on November 28 to urge him to cancel the marriage. Despite agreeing to do so, Hawa Singh went ahead with the marriage.
The villagers are now planning to take the issue to a gathering of Sheoran 25 - a khap panchayat of 25 villages dominated by the Sheorans. They are reported to be planning a meeting of the khap on or after December 25 to avoid any complications in the court where an old khap panchayat issue is to come up for hearing on December 23.
Meanwhile, the Poonias are planning to approach the Punjab and Haryana High Court to seek directions to the district administration to provide them security and curb illegal activities of the panchayat.
The area has become notorious for raking up such issues. Over the past year or so, similar problems were created for at least two couples under similar circumstances. These couples continue to be under siege despite relief from the court. However, the court intervention has failed to check panchayats from expelling villagers on defying their diktats.

[dahiyars]

Dear All and Chillar ji.

One more Fatwa by these so called Panchayats. Only courts orders will not work till well meaning people of Haryana rise up against these FATWAS. A campaign is required against these FATWAS.

R.S.Dahiya

[raj_rathee]

Dear All and Chillar ji.

One more Fatwa by these so called Panchayats. Only courts orders will not work till well meaning people of Haryana rise up against these FATWAS. A campaign is required against these FATWAS.

R.S.Dahiya

Our social system is based on certian social premises that have existed
for many many centuries. I am not sure how a few who consider themselves
"with the times" can all of a sudden start overriding the Panchayats.

If anything this has to be a gradual process...and in some cases we
see this happening (like ignoring Dadi ka gotra and things
like that). You cannot just change things overnight.

I respect the authority of the Panchayats (while not necessarily agreeing
with them). In this case the couple is ex-communicated from the
village. I think that is a reasonable compromise. Furthermore, the
parents had been warned against the marriage in advance...so this
is not a after the fact issue either.

What would we want next...marriages with the gotras...within the same
village...to our cousins?....I mean why not? Issme ke kharabi hai?
Its just stretching this a bit further, right?

I do not beleive that Indian courts are quite ready to handle the diverse
social situations that our community faces...and our ways of dealing
with them. The Panchayats are one mechanism that allows some
level of independence. We should not undermine them.

[vkaschaudhary]

21ST CENTURY DOESNT MEAN...

we should forget our culture....values...ethics....a system made by ancestor by which we can respect the relations.....

if gotra system religion system was not followed by them..then we would have benn following the Muslim system..where we have to marry a girl to whom we say sister in childhood and later on that she becomes wife....

god make relationships to.....to stop crime,to follow a system...
if that would not have been....than there won't b any difference...b/w a human being and dogs..............


so we must follow the system and values its not matter of 21 century or later on....

[hdsura]

For an outsider these panchayats seem more of an ill than cure. Most (may be all) of the time these are in news for bad reasons. Their means of solving problems, if at all that is the intention, are medieval.

They are giving good amunition to the Jat unfriendly media to create circus out of Jats.

[raj_rathee]

For an outsider these panchayats seem more of an ill than cure. Most (may be all) of the time these are in news for bad reasons. Their means of solving problems, if at all that is the intention, are medieval.

They are giving good amunition to the Jat unfriendly media to create circus out of Jats.

It *may be* that they are medieval.
However, they, as far as I can tell, represent the mentality and thought
process of the people they tend to represent (for better or worse).
Note that they do not represent someone sitting in Las Vegas (yourself)
or Bay areas (myself) of California. Infact they do not even represent
those of these villages who have migrated to the urban areas and
given up on the village.

So I fail to see who we are to question them. As far as I can tell this
is as good a democratic system as any we can have. They represent the
people who vote them in. If they are medieval, the folks they represent
are medieval too.

Either way, we *outsiders* need to butt out!

And by the way your title "Tribal Thinking" is quite appropriate. This is tribal
thinking. But guess what? The fact that we have a "Jatland.com"
and the fact that we are all members here is "tribal" in nature. We are
identifying with a tribe and find comfort and strength in that identity
and its ways. The Panchayat is actually protecting these ways
in the ways it thinks best.

[chhillar]

Te bhai Rathee panchatiaan pe comment karan tahin gaam mein jana pade ga ke??? par gaam ka in mere batyaan ne naka moond rakhya se

what would you say if these panchayatis do the same to your brother.....kick out the bride????

[sidchhikara]

It *may be* that they are medieval.
However, they, as far as I can tell, represent the mentality and thought
process of the people they tend to represent (for better or worse).
Note that they do not represent someone sitting in Las Vegas (yourself)
or Bay areas (myself) of California. Infact they do not even represent
those of these villages who have migrated to the urban areas and
given up on the village.

So I fail to see who we are to question them. As far as I can tell this
is as good a democratic system as any we can have. They represent the
people who vote them in. If they are medieval, the folks they represent
are medieval too.

Either way, we *outsiders* need to butt out!

And by the way your title "Tribal Thinking" is quite appropriate. This is tribal
thinking. But guess what? The fact that we have a "Jatland.com"
and the fact that we are all members here is "tribal" in nature. We are
identifying with a tribe and find comfort and strength in that identity
and its ways. The Panchayat is actually protecting these ways
in the ways it thinks best.

I understan that you are emphasizing the democratic process that the panchayats follow - majority wins. But the basis of any democratic process is civility. Panchayats have the mentality of tribal justice. Panchayats cannot be democratic because the members of panchayat donot understand the democratic process. there is a disconnect there. No civility no democracy.

[vinodks]

I agree with you. In modern times, the working styles and norms of Panchayat system may sound unpalatable and outlandish but the system is core characteristic of Jat culture. A century or so before when police and govt. was unknown to villages it was this system that gave safeguard to legal and criminal issues. Along the way certain cultural metaphors and norms emerged naturally because of so-called clannish nature of social structure. The word "clan" doesn't satisfactorily reflect the nature of gotra system but it got its way in common jargon somehow. Jats are not the only people who excerice exogamous system of marriage. Historially, laws of marriage in khatri, rajputs and other castes too were equally or more constrainted and owing to their traditional upperhand in social and economical their cultural norms gained acceptability. The upper-middle class of small towns isn't much improvement over so-called "clannish" style of village, only that they are powerless or unenthusiastic to raise such nakabandi. When it comes to marriage issues the liberal attitude that Jats had taken has been envy of other classes, I mean historically. Not all classes had luxury of widow remarriage, less constrainted sati-partha etc.

Having said that, historical significance of panchayat doesn't justify the decisions taken by panchayat. I am personally against gotra funda of mother and grandma, but I am not judgemental on those who practice that. It takes time for such social practices to become obsolete. If you remember our father's generation times or talk to elderly people you would get an idea how much things have changed positively, though elderly class doesn't seem to appreciate the change that much. But they deserve benefit of doubt, in fact they need. Not only gotra system but even intracaste marriage system can also be argued. Its fine to argue on such issues and reforms are welcome but you should also think about implementing it, atleast in your circle of influence.

These issues make nice material for news in media and people sitting in front of plasma tv dont have oppotunity, time or correct perpective to enable them to reflect on the complex social issue in its entirety before passing a silent judgement in his mind.

Rathee saab, Photo mein tau ji hain kya?... bahut achhe pic hai...

-vinod

Khushwant Singh: “They (Jats) brought with them certain institutions, the most important being the “panchayat”, an elected body of five elders, to which they pledged allegiance. Every Jat village was a republic…”


It *may be* that they are medieval.
However, they, as far as I can tell, represent the mentality and thought
process of the people they tend to represent (for better or worse).
Note that they do not represent someone sitting in Las Vegas (yourself)
or Bay areas (myself) of California. Infact they do not even represent
those of these villages who have migrated to the urban areas and
given up on the village.

So I fail to see who we are to question them. As far as I can tell this
is as good a democratic system as any we can have. They represent the
people who vote them in. If they are medieval, the folks they represent
are medieval too.

Either way, we *outsiders* need to butt out!

And by the way your title "Tribal Thinking" is quite appropriate. This is tribal
thinking. But guess what? The fact that we have a "Jatland.com"
and the fact that we are all members here is "tribal" in nature. We are
identifying with a tribe and find comfort and strength in that identity
and its ways. The Panchayat is actually protecting these ways
in the ways it thinks best.

[raj_rathee]

Te bhai Rathee panchatiaan pe comment karan tahin gaam mein jana pade ga ke??? par gaam ka in mere batyaan ne naka moond rakhya se

what would you say if these panchayatis do the same to your brother.....kick out the bride????


Nahin, comment karan tahin toh kahin nahin jaana yaar.
We are all commenting here. So everyone can have their say.

If I had a brother who is part of the rural system then yes he would be expected to follow the societal norm. If he breaks that norm then he
should take on the punishment that is normally meted out...in this
case it is usually leave the village for good. I think it is a fair and
reasonable way of handling such a situation. I do not think it
is barbaric or outrageous given the current psyche of the rural
folks.

I am not saying these norms are right or wrong. I am saying these norms
reflect the majority of the folks that come under its umbrella. If we want
change then that is a gradual process of educating/convincing/....
At the point that the majority of the villagers feel differently then I am
pretty comfortable in the beflief that the decisions the Panchayats
take will also reflect that majority.

Change takes place. It is gradual.

Don't blame the Panchayat. It is our people who still think like that.
Unko pada lyo jitna padhaya jaanta ho thaare te.

I do believe that Indian court system is not capable of dealing
with the complex issues that our society faces and the socio-economic
realities that exist out there. Law is meant to provide rules for how
a "reasonable"/"common" (wo)man (hence the term "common law") should
conduct themselves. Given our society we do not
have enough depth in our legal system to deal with all that. Any wonder
why we have separate laws for muslims? Why not a separate one for Jats?
And if so...why not the Panchayati system?

[BTW What I am saying does not at all reflect my own stand on what is
right or wrong in terms of social norms. My own standards are probably way
too outrageous for even the very liberated amongst us. The Panchayat
would probably have me burnt alive. :cool: ;) ]

[raj_rathee]

I understan that you are emphasizing the democratic process that the panchayats follow - majority wins. But the basis of any democratic process is civility. Panchayats have the mentality of tribal justice. Panchayats cannot be democratic because the members of panchayat donot understand the democratic process. there is a disconnect there. No civility no democracy.

Dost, the members of the panchayats are the people. Since
times immemorial that has always been the case. Civility is all about what
we "think" to be civil. The definition has been changing throughout history.

When the rural folks come to the same definition of "civility" as you then
what you will see is the decisions will reflect that as well.

It is futile to say that members of the Panchayat do not understand the
democratic process. By that yardstick we would not allow
any body without a PhD to stand in elections. We would probably
never have farmers or less educated people represent us in Delhi.
Because when you talk to the "Deliwallahs" they will say that these
ganwar/unpads ko democracy ka kya pata!

Democracy is about representation. It means the people choose who will
speak for them. Are you saying that our folks don't know about that?
You must be kidding if you really want to say that.

[raj_rathee]

Rathee saab, Photo mein tau ji hain kya?... bahut achhe pic hai...

-vinod

Khushwant Singh: “They (Jats) brought with them certain institutions, the most important being the “panchayat”, an elected body of five elders, to which they pledged allegiance. Every Jat village was a republic…”

Vinod...couldn't get to your post right now...Have to take off...

The man in the pic was my Nana. He passed away a couple
years back.

[sidchhikara]

Dost, the members of the panchayats are the people. Since
times immemorial that has always been the case. Civility is all about what
we "think" to be civil. The definition has been changing throughout history.

When the rural folks come to the same definition of "civility" as you then
what you will see is the decisions will reflect that as well.

It is futile to say that members of the Panchayat do not understand the
democratic process. By that yardstick we would not allow
any body without a PhD to stand in elections. We would probably
never have farmers or less educated people represent us in Delhi.
Because when you talk to the "Deliwallahs" they will say that these
ganwar/unpads ko democracy ka kya pata!

Democracy is about representation. It means the people choose who will
speak for them. Are you saying that our folks don't know about that?
You must be kidding if you really want to say that.


First things first - Democracy is a western concept. A few thins are required for democracy to function:

Executive
Legislature
Judiciary

These have to be mutually excusive of each others control.

Panchayat is everything rolled into one.

There is no court (panchayati) to decide for those who want to appeal panchayat's decision.
Look at the way they function - they try to impose their decision on the people.

Panchayat is a democracy to the point of how it is elected. It ends there. It does not have the instruments to function as a democracy.
There is no protection for minority opinion either.

Indian democracy itself is feudal. Its an illusion of democracy. The instruments are there as suggested by the constituionare there. But they are inadequate and mostly on paper.


--Because when you talk to the "Deliwallahs" they will say that these
ganwar/unpads ko democracy ka kya pata! -- what makes you think ppl in delhi know anything about democracy??

Anyway, that is the system the villages function under. They will continue to function under that system because they don't know what else is out there. It does'nt affect me. I am not sure how much it affects you. So I will leave it at that.

[hdsura]

I am truly an outsider to this whole panchayat system because originally I am from Rajasthan where there is no such panchayat system exists. So, I am not sure of the authenticity and the authority of this panchayat system.

There are two issues in this -
1) What is the legal or constitutional framework of these panchayats.
2) Social fabric of a certain class.

From what I understand (not limited to any particular episode) that these panayats are unconstitutional let alone democratic. If one justify to run an unconstitutional parallel governing/justice system then I guess one is treading dangerous territory. This is the point media is trying to convey.

Social fabric is concerned, no question of social values, rather unconcerned people getting in others business. Then may be that is what I am doing here. -:)

[hdsura]

Sounds like a panchayat *dictat*.

What to say. What to say. -:)

[raj_rathee]

I think one could debate concepts of democracy, law and so on
ad nauseum. I do not think we'll really get anywhere.

My view is that Indian society is too diverse. Different cultures exist within it.
Its different socio-economic groups have very differing needs. India is not
really in a position to create *sustainable* laws that can address the diversity of its people. We create laws that you just can't implement or enforce.

Try preventing child labor, when you don't have a system to feed these
children! Law bana kar kya uska acchar daaloge? Bacchon ka pet nahin bharoge toh woh kaam toh karenge hi!

Similarly try telling a Jat man in the village that he can't get a second wife
just because he doesn't have children from the first. If there
isn't a social system in place to support him in his old age what the
hell is he supposed to do? If the law forces his hand, he'll want to
divorce his wife or get rid of her in some other way. What social system
is in place to help out the poor woman if that happens to her?

In the current system at least the guy can marry again and still support
his first wife. The culture allows for that. The panchayats support that.

But if you start to enforce monogamy laws and such crap, you'll just
end up breaking up a social system that is practical and works.

Things like the panchayat are a very practical way of enforcing social norms
that these societies have defined for themselves. Essentially historically
it started as a system of "wise"/"elder" man that helped resolve issues.
In many ways it is still the same. Its a local way of dealing with local
issues. It gives power to the people in a very true sense to deal with
certain issues that no Indian law can really address in a way that
it satisfies the ground realities of Indian society.

From a Jat centric view, it allows us freedom to carry on a large
part of our lives the way we see fit...not how some lalas/brahamans
see fit for us in some far away seat of power.

Things aren't perfect. They never are. But bartering away our
power weilded through the Panchayats would be rather naive. Instead
what is needed is to participate in that system to ensure that is reflects
the true needs of our society.

Duniya power len tahin pata nahin kya-2 karti hai...tum log isse free men dena chahate ho.

[dndeswal]

.
राठी भाई ने जो कुछ लिखा, बिल्कुल ठीक है । अगर कानून बनाने से समस्यायें हल हो जाती तो अब तक तो अपना देश पता नहीं कितना आगे निकल चुका होता । हरयाणा में कानून है कि बाप की जायदाद में बेटी का भी हक है । हुआ यह है कि बहुत से गांवों में जिनके कोई लड़का नहीं था, मां-बाप के न रहने पर वहां पर ब्याहता लड़की रहने लगी - यानी एक दूसरे गोत्र का (पड़गोत्ती) परिवार वहां रहने लगा । कुछ सालों के बाद जब उनके बच्चे बड़े होंगे और उनकी शादी का सवाल आयेगा, तो ऐसा झगड़ा तो होगा ही । पहले एक गांव में एक या दो गोत्र (गोत) ही होते थे, अब तो पता नहीं कितने हो गये हैं । एक ही गांव में रहने वाले अलग-अलग गोत के परिवार आपस में रिश्ता भी करने लग सकते हैं (जैसा शहरों में होता है) - पर हमारा समाज इसकी इजाजत नहीं देता कि एक ही गांव में शादी हो या किसी दूसरे ऐसे गांव की लड़की ब्याह कर लाई जाये जिसके गोत के आदमी गांव में पहले ही मौजूद हैं ।

समस्या यहीं से शुरू होती है और पंचायतों को दखलंदाजी भी करनी पड़ती है । सरकारों ने कानून तो बना दिये पर समाज में उनके उल्टे असर का ख्याल नहीं किया । जो समाज हजारों साल से चला आ रहा है, उस पर पश्चिमी देशों से उधार लिये हुए कानून लागू करने से तो समाज में उथल-पुथल होगी ही ।

इसका मतलब यह न समझें कि मैं बेटियों के संपत्ति के हक के खिलाफ हूं - हक मिलना और बात है पर किसी दूसरे गोत्र वाले परिवार का किसी गांव में हमेशा के लिए बस जाना बिल्कुल अलग मुद्दा है और यही झगड़े की जड़ है ।

दूसरी बात यह भी है कि आजकल के पत्रकार भी ज्यादातर शहरी लोग हैं, उनको न तो पंचायती सिस्टम और न ही देहातों के रीत-रिवाजों का पता है । इन लोगों को अच्छा मसाला मिल जाता है और खूब नमक-मिर्च लगाकर लिखते हैं । ज्यादातर पत्रकार पंजाबी, बनिया या बाहमण हैं और तकरीबन सारे ही जाट विरोधी हैं । ऐसे पंचायती फैसले पहले भी होते आये हैं - और बहुत सोच समझ कर ही किये जाते हैं । आजकल जब समाज के ताने-बाने पर हमला हो रहा है तो ऐसी घटनायें तो होंगी ही । अपनी मर्जी से किसी भी गोत्र में या किसी भी जाति में ब्याह करना हो तो बेहतर है कि गांव को छोड़ दो और दूर किसी शहर में रहने लग जाओ । पर आजकल गावों में भी जमीन की कीमतें इतनी बढ गईं हैं, कौन एक सोने की मुर्गी को मारना चाहता है ?
.

[hdsura]

You are telling that these Panchayats are panacea? On the contrary they are in the news all the time for their irresposible conduct and wrong reasons. Never ever for good reasons. What does that tell you? Does one need a 100 line paragraph to illustrate how good or bad they are?

I also grew up in a village and good part of my relatives still live in villages and it is not very far from Haryana. The social structure is not very different but there are no Panchayats. Never ever felt that the rule of law didn't work. If it works in my village than it would in your's too.

If one chooses not to participate in mainstream and want to live in medieval era thats a matter of choice not fault of the system. They and their Panchayats have bigger problems.

[hdsura]

Your arguments are not holding because you say you have Panchayats and you have more problems.

In fact, you will find more problems in places where there are panchayats than not.

This panchayat systems you are advocating reminds me the African countries like Rwanda where they have similar panchayats.

There is no society even the most successful one's in world free from problems.

[vinodks]

I agree with Rathee and Deswal bhai. We dont have to stretch it so much as to call panacea but it would make more sense if one would honestly try to understand it by taking all factors into account. Its very easy to critize panachayats becuase they dont have formal legistative procedure. Historically they had better defined goals and played indispensible role but few of the things are becoming irrelevent with time.
Ofcourse we are against some incompromising stands taken by panchayats and should do to pervent them but I wouldn't believe in whatever I see in news and form an opinion. The debate can go on and on. Instead of going into its present structure, pros and cons I wanted to discuss its historical role, for which I would start a thread in history section.

Anyway good luck for healthy debate.

-vinod

You are telling that these Panchayats are panacea? On the contrary they are in the news all the time for their irresposible conduct and wrong reasons. Never ever for good reasons. What does that tell you? Does one need a 100 line paragraph to illustrate how good or bad they are?

I also grew up in a village and good part of my relatives still live in villages and it is not very far from Haryana. The social structure is not very different but there are no Panchayats. Never ever felt that the rule of law didn't work. If it works in my village than it would in your's too.

If one chooses not to participate in mainstream and want to live in medieval era thats a matter of choice not fault of the system. They and their Panchayats have bigger problems.

[vinodks]

I dont think you are trying to understand. I would suggest you to read Dharampal ji's book on Panchayat Raj. [The great soul passed away recently.] If you find time you could also read Dr B K Dabas's book on Social and Political History of Jats.

Panchayat Raj and India's Polity by Dharampal
http://www.vidyaonline.net/arvindgupta/dharampal4.zip

Kripya, Rwanda ki panchayat ke baare mein aur batayiye?

-vinod

Your arguments are not holding because you say you have Panchayats and you have more problems.

In fact, you will find more problems in places where there are panchayats than not.

This panchayat systems you are advocating reminds me the African countries like Rwanda where they have similar panchayats.

There is no society even the most successful one's in world free from problems.

[hdsura]

I by no way affected by it and could careless. But when you talk of Jat progress as whole I see it as problem not a solution. Kings are gone, Angrez are gone and so should have the panchayats. These are irrelevant now and unlawful too, even if they used to be a system.

Pariticipate in the mainstream or else left behind. You should give this message to people when you go to village.

Talk of present and future not the past---which even if you try wasn't that glorious. Lets be honest to ourselves here.

[hdsura]

I guess I have come too far perhaps, there is a saying -

*Hath kangan ko arsi kya*

My friend, listen carefully, I have quite learned people in my family who have been part of the Jat issues and I myself too have been involved quite a lot. I am quite aware of what are Jats what it means to me.

I dont think you are trying to understand. I would suggest you to read Dharampal ji's book on Panchayat Raj. [The great soul passed away recently.] If you find time you could also read Dr B K Dabas's book on Social and Political History of Jats.

Panchayat Raj and India's Polity by Dharampal
http://www.vidyaonline.net/arvindgupta/dharampal4.zip

Kripya, Rwanda ki panchayat ke baare mein aur batayiye?

-vinod

[vinodks]

Just wanted to share a quote.

Sir J N Sarkar*: "From ancient times till today Jats have been witnessing to democratic system and it is on account of this system that the entire community is based on equality, integrity, sociability and individual liberty. Despite the want of diplomatic skill, a common economic system and conducting a regular administration, they acknowledge the opinion of their elected leader or a respected chief with great reverence."

-vinod

*- Sir J N Sarkar was an Indian historian, inarguably one among the best.

[kharub]

I totally and thoroughly support the panchayati action ...... The grooms family was made aware of the social issues in advance and if they still choose to break away with social custom ... then the society has a right to outcast them ........

If you do not respect social norms and law of the land then you have no right to be a part of that society

And those enlightened souls .... the self appointed intellectulas crying foul and claiming injustice let me remind you people that its these very customs that have kept Jats Jats through thick and thin ..........

These panchayats and the social systems that our quam has is the very reason we faced the onslaugt of Brahmins & Mugals and thrived ... its what makes us strong and powerful ........ and all those who do not like the system are more than welcome to move to "undisclosed location" like the Poonia family did ........ you will not be missed

[kharub]

For an outsider these panchayats seem more of an ill than cure. Most (may be all) of the time these are in news for bad reasons. Their means of solving problems, if at all that is the intention, are medieval.

They are giving good amunition to the Jat unfriendly media to create circus out of Jats.

Let them outsiders think what they want ........ since when did Jats started caring about what people think ...... Its our custom and our culture and I am standing by it .. and will support it no matter what ...........

Are you talking about the same outsiders who operate Gay (Homosexual) Bars in Delhi, Bombay & Banglore ... who have wife swapping parties and consider themselves the social elite of India

(and these are not stories I have read, I have been to such parties, not knowing what was going on and then realising the deal and storming out)

I am a Jat ... and proud of my customs and cultures those who feel ashamed can change their surnames to Gupta, Sharma, Tyagi, Khan, Haq or whatever and we will not bother you ..

Talking liberal does not show one's modern outlook or ones advancement in life .. it only shows how hollow you are inside ......... Germans & Scandanavians are counted among the most liberal people .. and you should see their commitment to their customs and traditions ..... makes me laugh at these pseudo Liberal Jats wannabe

The weak change with times ........ the strong mould the times as they wish

[kharub]

There are two issues in this -
1) What is the legal or constitutional framework of these panchayats.
2) Social fabric of a certain class.

From what I understand (not limited to any particular episode) that these panayats are unconstitutional let alone democratic. If one justify to run an unconstitutional parallel governing/justice system then I guess one is treading dangerous territory. This is the point media is trying to convey.

Social fabric is concerned, no question of social values, rather unconcerned people getting in others business. Then may be that is what I am doing here. -:)

What is the constitution... some Dalit and a bunch of pandits wrote it .... constitution was written recently by human beings and not God himself ... and it can be changed by the fools like Lalu Yadav sitting in the parliament .. so don't give me the crap about greatness or superiority of the constitution

Our traditions are centuries old and far superior that any bloody constitution ... and same goes for laws ....... laws change

Its legal in the EU for faggets (homosexuals) to get married & adopt kids too and in a lot of Americal states also and and if you say anything against it you go to jail .......... so there goes the superiority of laws as well

People make laws . powerful people who have money and clout and people wrote the constitution ... it is in no way better than my customs .. centuries old and what has kept the identity of my people distinct .......

Screw your laws and constitution ......... they are wrong and faulty if not in line with the law of my people ......... And I will defy them every time they conflict with my rules

[kharub]

.
पर हमारा समाज इसकी इजाजत नहीं देता कि एक ही गांव में शादी हो या किसी दूसरे ऐसे गांव की लड़की ब्याह कर लाई जाये जिसके गोत के आदमी गांव में पहले ही मौजूद हैं ।

समस्या यहीं से शुरू होती है और पंचायतों को दखलंदाजी भी करनी पड़ती है । सरकारों ने कानून तो बना दिये पर समाज में उनके उल्टे असर का ख्याल नहीं किया । जो समाज हजारों साल से चला आ रहा है, उस पर पश्चिमी देशों से उधार लिये हुए कानून लागू करने से तो समाज में उथल-पुथल होगी ही ।

दूसरी बात यह भी है कि आजकल के पत्रकार भी ज्यादातर शहरी लोग हैं, उनको न तो पंचायती सिस्टम और न ही देहातों के रीत-रिवाजों का पता है । इन लोगों को अच्छा मसाला मिल जाता है और खूब नमक-मिर्च लगाकर लिखते हैं । ज्यादातर पत्रकार पंजाबी, बनिया या बाहमण हैं और तकरीबन सारे ही जाट विरोधी हैं । ऐसे पंचायती फैसले पहले भी होते आये हैं - और बहुत सोच समझ कर ही किये जाते हैं । आजकल जब समाज के ताने-बाने पर हमला हो रहा है तो ऐसी घटनायें तो होंगी ही । अपनी मर्जी से किसी भी गोत्र में या किसी भी जाति में ब्याह करना हो तो बेहतर है कि गांव को छोड़ दो और दूर किसी शहर में रहने लग जाओ । पर आजकल गावों में भी जमीन की कीमतें इतनी बढ गईं हैं, कौन एक सोने की मुर्गी को मारना चाहता है ?
.
Totally Agree with every word

[sidchhikara]

What is the constitution... some Dalit and a bunch of pandits wrote it .... constitution was written recently by human beings and not God himself ... and it can be changed by the fools like Lalu Yadav sitting in the parliament .. so don't give me the crap about greatness or superiority of the constitution

Our traditions are centuries old and far superior that any bloody constitution ... and same goes for laws ....... laws change

Its legal in the EU for faggets (homosexuals) to get married & adopt kids too and in a lot of Americal states also and and if you say anything against it you go to jail .......... so there goes the superiority of laws as well

People make laws . powerful people who have money and clout and people wrote the constitution ... it is in no way better than my customs .. centuries old and what has kept the identity of my people distinct .......

Screw your laws and constitution ......... they are wrong and faulty if not in line with the law of my people ......... And I will defy them every time they conflict with my rules

Sir,
You are confusing the issue. I realize your passion for the Jat customs.
You are angry against ppl of other religion caste etc. You have a right to be angry against them if you feel like it, but that does not make the panchayat right. The constitution written by ppl of other caste etc., may be wrong, but that does'nt make the panchayat right. I totally agree with you that constitution is F*&#ed up in more that one way and that ppl of other castes are assholes (not all of them though) - but it still does'nt make the panchayat right.

Please go easy on the homos, they probably will never harm you in anyway. I would be concerned about them if all the homos in the world decided to go and **** on ppl's front lawn everyday of the morning. That would be something I would not want to look at.

[sidchhikara]

1) The sarpanch is mostly corrupt and hoards all the money given to him by the government - thats how good the panchayat is. It by the ppl, of the ppl, but not for the ppl - its another way to channelize funds to the sarpanch.

2) In this particular case: Then he passes judgement on powerless and clueless ppl who dont know what hit them. His stupid ass and the rest of the clueless villagers then go ahead and do stupid sh*t like nakabandi - just holding traffic and inviting the stupid Indian press to come over and write a really stupid article - which makes the villagers look like fools (they actually are!!)

3) The rest of the stupid citizens read the papers - they form their stupid and biased opinion about Jats (branding all Jats stupid) -not realizing that they (read bania, punjabis - rest of them - I have no respect for stupid ppl BTW) are themselves stupid and annoying.

4) Then another stupid incident happens down the line involving Jats ... you know the rest of the drill.

5) Then we have ppl over here defending this kind of stupidity - you know what it makes them look like - you guessed it ------ STUPID!!!!!!!!!!

4)

[dndeswal]

.
The word ‘Panchayat’ itself contains several meanings. The true meaning of the word is that wherever five elderly, wise persons assemble, is called a ‘Panchayat’ or ‘the group of five learned persons’. Its modern format about which Mr. Chhikara is perhaps referring to, is the elected or, in a way, ‘Sarkari’ Panchayat which has some recognition by Government agencies.

Our traditional Panchayat system is not against any religion or caste - every caste has its own super-Panchayat. Brahmins have their own Panchayats, so do banias and other castes. Similarly every ‘khap’ has its own panchayat. The system itself has been prevailing for thousands of years – this unique system is India’s product and has been tested over time. Even President Clinton has praised this in his speeches and writings.

It may be possible that in the present case involving Jevali village of Poonia Gotra, the local ‘panchayat’ may be wrong. Courts have also delivered wrong decisions in the past. But that does not prove that our faith in the Panchayati system has been lost or they are “stupid” in delivering their judgements. The decisions of these Panchayats may not be legally-binding but are certainly morally-binding on the part of a locality or village. Americans are also making “stupid”, laws against immigrants and against their own nationals. Their stupid Senators and Congressmen are passing inhuman and immoral laws like gay marriages etc.
.

[sidchhikara]

.
The word ‘Panchayat’ itself contains several meanings. The true meaning of the word is that wherever five elderly, wise persons assemble, is called a ‘Panchayat’ or ‘the group of five learned persons’. Its modern format about which Mr. Chhikara is perhaps referring to, is the elected or, in a way, ‘Sarkari’ Panchayat which has some recognition by Government agencies.

Our traditional Panchayat system is not against any religion or caste - every caste has its own super-Panchayat. Brahmins have their own Panchayats, so do banias and other castes. Similarly every ‘khap’ has its own panchayat. The system itself has been prevailing for thousands of years – this unique system is India’s product and has been tested over time. Even President Clinton has praised this in his speeches and writings.

It may be possible that in the present case involving Jevali village of Poonia Gotra, the local ‘panchayat’ may be wrong. Courts have also delivered wrong decisions in the past. But that does not prove that our faith in the Panchayati system has been lost or they are “stupid” in delivering their judgements. The decisions of these Panchayats may not be legally-binding but are certainly morally-binding on the part of a locality or village. Americans are also making “stupid”, laws against immigrants and against their own nationals. Their stupid Senators and Congressmen are passing inhuman and immoral laws like gay marriages etc.
.

Who said the Americans are not stupid? - Some of them are very stupid, especially the religious kind - including Bush - who thinks Jesus told him to liberate Iraq. Some of the *achievements* of these stupid ppl include blocking stem cell research, not teaching evolution in school, ban on gay marriage, pro-life campaign, putting the ten commandments from the bible in all federal buildings... I can go on and on....

Whats inhuman and immoral about gay marriage? Does not bother me one bit.

Whats inhuman is imposing your will other ppl, let them do what they want until it affects you or the public services you use.

[kharub]

Sir,
You are confusing the issue. I realize your passion for the Jat customs.
You are angry against ppl of other religion caste etc. You have a right to be angry against them if you feel like it, but that does not make the panchayat right. The constitution written by ppl of other caste etc., may be wrong, but that does'nt make the panchayat right. I totally agree with you that constitution is F*&#ed up in more that one way and that ppl of other castes are assholes (not all of them though) - but it still does'nt make the panchayat right.

Please go easy on the homos, they probably will never harm you in anyway. I would be concerned about them if all the homos in the world decided to go and **** on ppl's front lawn everyday of the morning. That would be something I would not want to look at.

Homosexulity is a poision an evil if ignored will spread fast like it has in west .... it is a natural defect soemtimes genetic sometimes psycological .. I have nothing against homosexuals but everything against homosexuality .... but thats not the point of discussion here ... so i will save it for another time ...

[kharub]

1) The sarpanch is mostly corrupt and hoards all the money given to him by the government - thats how good the panchayat is. It by the ppl, of the ppl, but not for the ppl - its another way to channelize funds to the sarpanch.

Chhikara Bhai sahab .. by this logic the whole concept of democracy is faulty and should be scrapped ...... We should rather have a council of intellectuals to decide governance matters

2) In this particular case: Then he passes judgement on powerless and clueless ppl who dont know what hit them. His stupid ass and the rest of the clueless villagers then go ahead and do stupid sh*t like nakabandi - just holding traffic and inviting the stupid Indian press to come over and write a really stupid article - which makes the villagers look like fools (they actually are!!)

The whole point is its those peoples village and community .. whether out of stupidity or in full intellectual foresight they decide to do something its not only right but their absolute right to do so ......... a community is made of people and those people decide which direction to steer it in ... whether you agree or disagree

3) The rest of the stupid citizens read the papers - they form their stupid and biased opinion about Jats (branding all Jats stupid) -not realizing that they (read bania, punjabis - rest of them - I have no respect for stupid ppl BTW) are themselves stupid and annoying.

People will always think what they want to and you cannot please them .... when you start pleasing people the only thing you get it out of it is that displease yourself ..... stop worrying about people and stand up for what you think is right

4) Then another stupid incident happens down the line involving Jats ... you know the rest of the drill.

5) Then we have ppl over here defending this kind of stupidity - you know what it makes them look like - you guessed it ------ STUPID!!!!!!!!!!

What high moral ground do you have to have to think that your are so enlightened and superoir ... let me remind you that wherever in the world you live you are a product of that very social system ... and now you are critisizing it huh ........ maybe you have grown too big for your own boots ....... or maybe you are too Americanised and everything Jat smells now ....

4)

My comments are limited to our argument here on this topic and are not meant to be a personal observation

[vkaschaudhary]

Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm:)

[vinodks]

Guys, plz spare the gays in the discussion. Have whatever opinions you have regarding gay/lesbian/bi or whatever plz dont bring it in discussion on panchayat.

I agree with chikara on that Sarpanchs are "sometimes" corrupt. But the whole approach towards judging the panchayat system is based on partial selection of facts to suit the argument rather than including the complete picture. In my village, I had seen one surpanch who was so respected and so corrupt. I was child so didn't have courage to question him. Now the surpanch is from carpenter class and he looks much more honest. Lekin Hooda govt usko passe hi nahi deti:-)))...

There were few decision taken by panchayat which I really appreciated e.g. making classrooms for school by collecting chanda, buying ox for village by collecting money, cutting tree from a barren land and converting it into johad(pool), putting ban on cutting tree on nahar(canal), expelling a culprit from village who had almost killed another old man, expelling another man from village who had killed the ox(becuase ox had killed his father last year while the unfortunate old man was feeding the ox) so take the revenge the idoit son hit the ox on the date next year(its horror, humans are sometimes so strange) etc etc... Some of the this decision or their execution is out of hand of govt./police to enforce... I think we need to reform the system with positive input from educated class rather than bitch about age-old system...

-vinod

[sidchhikara]

My comments are limited to our argument here on this topic and are not meant to be a personal observation

Originally Posted by sidchhikara http://www.jatland.com/forums/images/kirsch/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?p=125709#post125709)
1) The sarpanch is mostly corrupt and hoards all the money given to him by the government - thats how good the panchayat is. It by the ppl, of the ppl, but not for the ppl - its another way to channelize funds to the sarpanch.

Chhikara Bhai sahab .. by this logic the whole concept of democracy is faulty and should be scrapped ...... We should rather have a council of intellectuals to decide governance matters

Give me one good reason why any rational human being would side with someone who is corrupt?
I'll give you 3:
1) Either you are yourself corrupt
2) Or you donot find anything wrong with corruption
3) or you are totally missing the point and arguing about it just for the sake of argument


2) In this particular case: Then he passes judgement on powerless and clueless ppl who dont know what hit them. His stupid ass and the rest of the clueless villagers then go ahead and do stupid sh*t like nakabandi - just holding traffic and inviting the stupid Indian press to come over and write a really stupid article - which makes the villagers look like fools (they actually are!!)

The whole point is its those peoples village and community .. whether out of stupidity or in full intellectual foresight they decide to do something its not only right but their absolute right to do so ......... a community is made of people and those people decide which direction to steer it in ... whether you agree or disagree

Its not right by me and also the ppl who got affected by this nonsense and I totally disagree with what they did. I have an opinion and I will hold on to it.


3) The rest of the stupid citizens read the papers - they form their stupid and biased opinion about Jats (branding all Jats stupid) -not realizing that they (read bania, punjabis - rest of them - I have no respect for stupid ppl BTW) are themselves stupid and annoying.

People will always think what they want to and you cannot please them .... when you start pleasing people the only thing you get it out of it is that displease yourself ..... stop worrying about people and stand up for what you think is right

Thats what I have been doing all along on this thread

4) Then another stupid incident happens down the line involving Jats ... you know the rest of the drill.

5) Then we have ppl over here defending this kind of stupidity - you know what it makes them look like - you guessed it ------ STUPID!!!!!!!!!!

What high moral ground do you have to have to think that your are so enlightened and superoir ... let me remind you that wherever in the world you live you are a product of that very social system ... and now you are critisizing it huh ........ maybe you have grown too big for your own boots ....... or maybe you are too Americanised and everything Jat smells now ....

Yes, I am a product of that social system. This social system has some good things and some bad. I am calling out the bad things.
One need not be americanised to be rationally inclined. Unless you think both are the same thing. I would like to point out that they are not - America is full of irrational ppl.

Let me point out what smells:
Corruption
Casteism
Religious and other kinds of intolerence
Global warming
Overpopulation
Civil Strife
Racism
If a Jat does any of these things in my opinion - he stinks too - no exception.
Human race itself stinks - they are so arrogant that they think the earth revolves for them. The seasons change for them. There is a God that will take care of them. They think they are superior to other ppl because they belong to certain race/color/religion/customs. Believe me we can go the dinosaur way anytime. All the conflicts will end - Palestinian -Israel, Muslim-Christian, Jat - non-jat, gotra issues. That same sarpanch's corpse will be laying in a pile of molten celestial lava. Till that happens we can either live peacefully and be civil to each other or quarrel over gotra issues.

As you pointed out correctly, I have grown out of my boots because they stunk.

The game is bigger than any of us.

[upender]

Guys let us not forget the topic which was being discussed....gotras are extremely important not just socially but for obvious genetic reasons....when we try to avoid marriages within gotras including that of mother, grandmother as well as those which reside within the same village is to avoid consanguinity in marriages....intragotra marriage will lead to increase in genetic disorders in the new born....so those who think why our elderly or the panchayats interfere when such a situation arises need to think twice...it sounds like a rigid system to those who have little social and scientific understanding of this gotra system....gehlot

[raj_rathee]

Anyway good luck for healthy debate.

-vinod


Wishful thinking! :rolleyes:

Koni meenh barse iss raygeestan men. Yahre tae chauth pathan tae eh
gaadi chaale sae! :D

Well anyways:
When in Rome do as the Romans do (and they did plenty :D :cool: )
When in Jatland, do as the Jats do! Jats the way!

[amitchhikara]

I will have to agree with Sidharth. Who you chose to marry is only your business and the panchayat should have no say in it. In this case they are trying to impose their will on others. Pachayat's have not changed with time and are still trying to impose some of the age old customs. If the families involved do not have any problem then what the F*** is the panchayat's problem ?

I admire Kharb's passion for the JAT community but he seems to make every issue a JATS vs the rest of the world issue and always has these war analogies like we have to gear up to fight the rest of the world. Don't quite get that.

[hdsura]

I admire your effort to dig up this nice but obscure quote.

Unfortunately, the truth is quite the opposite.

Don't take me wrong but since when we started to accept an authority? The proof is in the pudding (posts herein).

Just wanted to share a quote.

Sir J N Sarkar*: "From ancient times till today Jats have been witnessing to democratic system and it is on account of this system that the entire community is based on equality, integrity, sociability and individual liberty. Despite the want of diplomatic skill, a common economic system and conducting a regular administration, they acknowledge the opinion of their elected leader or a respected chief with great reverence."

-vinod

*- Sir J N Sarkar was an Indian historian, inarguably one among the best.

[hdsura]

Kharub,

I like your Jat zeal, but, at times it is too extreme, like Talibs. Think over.

[vinodks]

Just a suggestion. Don't gauge obscurity based on your own ignorance. How many Indians you knwo who were awarded knighthood for research in history? Problem with peudo-intellectuals is they take stand first and then vehemently defend it using the jargon they learned in English schools (as someone else also mentioned it before). Your comment that 'truth is quite opposite' means "whatever I know is truth, what I am ignorant of is untruth". Nobody is going to get any award by winning any argument here. It's all self-learning process; some have open ears, some have them closed, some have no ears, some dont even know what ears stand for.
Jyada ho gya to sorry!

-vinod

I admire your effort to dig up this nice but obscure quote.

Unfortunately, the truth is quite the opposite.

Don't take me wrong but since when we started to accept an authority? The proof is in the pudding (posts herein).

[mann123]

we must not prove everything wrong. I think Panchyat system is most ancient democratic system in Jats and it is time tested.

The issue here is not the panchayati system but the decision taken by that panchayat. That may be wrong or right if that is wrong how.

In my view the panchayat in this case is right. Take this case Ek baat batao wo jo sheoran byaa ke layaa hai sheoran to uskee bebe bhee hai or bahu bhee and sheoran uske bhai bhee or salee bhee yo koi badiya naa hai.

aise case pehle bhee sunee hai bhaiyo yo to ek hi Gaam ka case hai kaee Gaam to 15-20 Km tahee bhee kisee gaam na byaa kartee.

Some of the educated people claims that if court don't have objection then why panchayat have?

Court don't know much about our traditions. Agar court ke hisab to chaloge to same gotra me shaadi karna koi jurm nahee hai.

I think panchayata me rajneete aa gee nahee to they were the best democratic system prevailing since long.

[hdsura]

Your's is also a view and nothing wrong with it.

I have nothing at stake here to take a stand, I mean zilch. Plenty other more important things to take stand on than this some P* crap.

Ignorant, I may be. No award called knighthood in india in my memory. Something during Angrez gulami I rather not go that far to tickle my memory.


Just a suggestion. Don't gauge obscurity based on your own ignorance. How many Indians you knwo who were awarded knighthood for research in history? Problem with peudo-intellectuals is they take stand first and then vehemently defend it using the jargon they learned in English schools (as someone else also mentioned it before). Your comment that 'truth is quite opposite' means "whatever I know is truth, what I am ignorant of is untruth". Nobody is going to get any award by winning any argument here. It's all self-learning process; some have open ears, some have them closed, some have no ears, some dont even know what ears stand for.
Jyada ho gya to sorry!

-vinod

[ashokpaul]

The basic problem is that panchayats are in the wrong hands. All the awakened people must join hands to stop this. the court decisions are no solution to the social problems. The solution lies within the system. KISI BHI CHEEJ KO ANDAR SE HI THIK KIYA JA SAKTA AUR YAHI STHAYI HOTA HAI.

The panchayati people are those who are mostly illiterate or litterare but with no sense for the problems of common man. They are there to give FATWAS and not to provide solutions. VO PANCHAYAT KI AAD ME AAPNI ROTI SEKTE HAIN!!! The intelligent people of the JAT community are not taking part in the system. They are either living in the cities or abroad. They are passively involved in the local politics. YE SAB AAPNE BHAIYON KE LIYE SANVEDANA KI KAMI SE HAI. They have no pain in thier heart for the plight of common people.
Its very clear from the fact that intelligent person search for the job and reside in city, but people left behind(who were not sharp in study) become the part of ruling community. This community is ruling over HIS PARENTS, HIS ASSETS and everything HE POSSESSED in the village. And the INTELLECTUAL has no time for the well being of the village, the villagers who play significant role in his success, his parents and his assets.
YADI LEFT BEHIND LOG RAJ KARENGE TO PROBLEMS HONGI HI, GALAT FATAWE BHI JARI HONGE, SOCIETY BHI PICHHARI RAHEGI, AUR INTELLECTUALS KE LIYE BHI KAM KARANE ME MUSHKIL HOGI.

Solution lies in the fact that WE, THE INTELLECTUALS must lead the society. there should be a group named like "JAT INTELLECTUAL'S PANCHAYAT" i.e. JIP to counter the problems caused by JP i.e. JAT PANCHAYAT i.e. the group of left behinds. Basic precaution is that intellectual's must be ABOVE VOTE SYSTEM. ARISE, AWAKE and JOIN hands to make beter PANCHAYATS for the future of our children. WE , the intellectuals must understand politics take the corrective steps.
:confused: POLITICS AND TIME NEVER WAIT ....................................9416482391

[sidchhikara]

Thanks to all the guys who agree with me.
Also, Vishwajeet has the full right to express his opinions no matter how extreme they are.
In this case they don't seem too extreme considering the fact that most Jats do hold these kind of opinions with the same level of extremity.

[raj_rathee]

Thanks to all the guys who agree with me.


Laage sae tu Sarpanchi ke 'lection tahin khada hon laag raha sae.
:D

[kharub]

Thanks to all the guys who agree with me.
Also, Vishwajeet has the full right to express his opinions no matter how extreme they are.
In this case they don't seem too extreme considering the fact that most Jats do hold these kind of opinions with the same level of extremity.

Why do people with real belief in a cause called extreme ......... what is more dangerous for the world and human society .. beliefless liberals or peopel who really believe in social and cultural values .... I am not an extremist ....

I have lived in 5 different countries and am very well integrated and a recognised socially in each of those scenes ....... dont catagorise me as a ghetto Pakistani in the UK - they are extremists ...

Extremism stems of ignorance ..... My views are infact a result of enlightment from my global experiences

I was very liberal and my parents are still very very liberal .. those who know them will know ..... But the more I see the erosion of the social fabric .... the more conservative my views become .....

If we leave Jat future to you liberals ......... Jats will cease to exist very soon .. infact they will be half-bred mules ....... Shankar bajra ...
and Jats are not half bred mules ...... They are Tigers ....

[kharub]

The basic problem is that panchayats are in the wrong hands.

So is the government of India and every state ........ Do you want to blame that on Jats too ??

The panchayati people are those who are mostly illiterate or litterare but with no sense for the problems of common man. They are there to give FATWAS and not to provide solutions. VO PANCHAYAT KI AAD ME AAPNI ROTI SEKTE HAIN!!! The intelligent people of the JAT community are not taking part in the system. They are either living in the cities or abroad. They are passively involved in the local politics. YE SAB AAPNE BHAIYON KE LIYE SANVEDANA KI KAMI SE HAI. They have no pain in thier heart for the plight of common people.

I consider myself intellegent .... come from a family of highly recognised and internationally awarded academics .. My mother is a fellow at Indian Institute of Advanced Studies ...... awarded by UN for her work in academics ..... winner of Commonwealth Scholarship to pursue a Phd. at Cambridge ....and my dad is a highly intellegent Civil Servant ... and I have been living abroad for very long ... and thoroughly support the Panchayats .......... so as per your explanation I am an idiot and ignorant and illetrate perhaps ......well if an intellectual is saying it ... it must be right

Its very clear from the fact that intelligent person search for the job and reside in city, but people left behind(who were not sharp in study) become the part of ruling community. This community is ruling over HIS PARENTS, HIS ASSETS and everything HE POSSESSED in the village. And the INTELLECTUAL has no time for the well being of the village, the villagers who play significant role in his success, his parents and his assets.
YADI LEFT BEHIND LOG RAJ KARENGE TO PROBLEMS HONGI HI, GALAT FATAWE BHI JARI HONGE, SOCIETY BHI PICHHARI RAHEGI, AUR INTELLECTUALS KE LIYE BHI KAM KARANE ME MUSHKIL HOGI.

Solution lies in the fact that WE, THE INTELLECTUALS must lead the society. there should be a group named like "JAT INTELLECTUAL'S PANCHAYAT" i.e. JIP to counter the problems caused by JP i.e. JAT PANCHAYAT i.e. the group of left behinds. Basic precaution is that intellectual's must be ABOVE VOTE SYSTEM. ARISE, AWAKE and JOIN hands to make beter PANCHAYATS for the future of our children. WE , the intellectuals must understand politics take the corrective steps.
:confused: POLITICS AND TIME NEVER WAIT ....................................9416482391

Well as per your definition neither me nor my family comes under the INTELLECTUAL catagory ........ so we appoint you the Messiah of Jat people ... please spread your divine Intellect and pull us out of the gutter we live in ...... our future rests on you and your enlightment of us ignorant souls

[kharub]

I will have to agree with Sidharth. Who you chose to marry is only your business and the panchayat should have no say in it. In this case they are trying to impose their will on others. Pachayat's have not changed with time and are still trying to impose some of the age old customs. If the families involved do not have any problem then what the F*** is the panchayat's problem ?

I admire Kharb's passion for the JAT community but he seems to make every issue a JATS vs the rest of the world issue and always has these war analogies like we have to gear up to fight the rest of the world. Don't quite get that.


Chikkara sahab ...... we live in a society .. and Jat society is the integral part of being a Jat .. Its our customs that give us the Jat values .... why do we have to change our cutoms .. just because following customs means backwardness ... in my humble opinion only to those who have an inferiority complex .. not to me ....

Lets learn something form teh Jews .. its theri culture and value and strict adherence to it that makes them so powerful and dominating ...

And yes if you have not noticed there has always been an anti-Jat bias .... people have a prejudice

Just last month I met a Half-marwadi Half English lad who has just launched a hi-end fashion and lifestyle magazine in Northern Europe .... and it was a business meeting ... during the course of lunch he asked me .. where are you from in India ..... I said Haryana ....... so he asked me are you a Jat .. I said yes ....... and he said the way you are dressed and the way you talk .. I would have never guessed that you were a Jat ........ and I told him I find it rather insulting and a not a compliment ...... and you should have seen his face ... he was trying to make it up to me the whole rest of the meeting

He was half-british and lived most fo his life in the UK .. but his marwadi side of the family still fed him the Jat steroetype ........

I have many stories like this .. when people say .. I couldn't have guessed you are a Jat .... and this bias is as a result of the the anti-Jat sentiment and conspiracy

If i believe in something ....... i fight for it .. I am not a Thali ka baingan ... I stick to what i believe in

[pnauhwar21]

Guys..if you go back to origins of humans, everybody would have same ancestors..not sure how these gotras came into being within same community..we say that Manu created the different classes viz. shudras, khatriyas, brahmins and Vaishya..so initially people in india got divided on the basis of these classes..then further various sub-castes got into being and within those various gotras..so how come marrying in same gotra is genetically wrong? How come the genes of people from same ancestors got divided and so much different that marrying within same gotra is termed a potential medical problem?

And if genetics was the main reason then why don't see a lot of genetically challanged muslims, they marry far closer in the relations than the Jats in this particular case..

Apart from genetics, if their is any cultural reason for these customs, what are they? If its just about not marrying within close relations of sisters/brothers, everybody would be sister/brother eventually if you go back in the Family Tree..

[amitchhikara]

Chikkara sahab ...... we live in a society .. and Jat society is the integral part of being a Jat .. Its our customs that give us the Jat values .... why do we have to change our cutoms .. just because following customs means backwardness ... in my humble opinion only to those who have an inferiority complex .. not to me ....

Lets learn something form teh Jews .. its theri culture and value and strict adherence to it that makes them so powerful and dominating ...

And yes if you have not noticed there has always been an anti-Jat bias .... people have a prejudice

Just last month I met a Half-marwadi Half English lad who has just launched a hi-end fashion and lifestyle magazine in Northern Europe .... and it was a business meeting ... during the course of lunch he asked me .. where are you from in India ..... I said Haryana ....... so he asked me are you a Jat .. I said yes ....... and he said the way you are dressed and the way you talk .. I would have never guessed that you were a Jat ........ and I told him I find it rather insulting and a not a compliment ...... and you should have seen his face ... he was trying to make it up to me the whole rest of the meeting

He was half-british and lived most fo his life in the UK .. but his marwadi side of the family still fed him the Jat steroetype ........

I have many stories like this .. when people say .. I couldn't have guessed you are a Jat .... and this bias is as a result of the the anti-Jat sentiment and conspiracy

If i believe in something ....... i fight for it .. I am not a Thali ka baingan ... I stick to what i believe in

Agreeing to the fact that some of our JAT customs might no longer be practical in today's world will not make any of us any less JATS. The argument that these are age old, tried and tested customs and should be followed with a blindfold just doesn't sit well with me. No new toughts or ideas would ever take place if we just simply kept following old ones.

Don't get me wrong i am as proud a JAT as any but i have no problems with acknowleding that not all JAT customs and practices make perfect sense. We can definitely stand to make more progress if were open to modifications and changes for the good of our own society. We as JATS would make much more progress if we didn't have such big egos and were more receptive to changes that make sense in the long run for our own community.

[hdsura]

There is bragging about value, but, if I were to go by the content herein I don't see any value. Sorry Man, but it's cheap.

In the example, the response really reinforced the Guys already biased opinion. On the face the Guy was nice, but, internally might be think what an A* H*.

Sorry man I didn't mean to offend anyone, it is just a flip side observation.



And yes if you have not noticed there has always been an anti-Jat bias .... people have a prejudice

Just last month I met a Half-marwadi Half English lad who has just launched a hi-end fashion and lifestyle magazine in Northern Europe .... and it was a business meeting ... during the course of lunch he asked me .. where are you from in India ..... I said Haryana ....... so he asked me are you a Jat .. I said yes ....... and he said the way you are dressed and the way you talk .. I would have never guessed that you were a Jat ........ and I told him I find it rather insulting and a not a compliment ...... and you should have seen his face ... he was trying to make it up to me the whole rest of the meeting

He was half-british and lived most fo his life in the UK .. but his marwadi side of the family still fed him the Jat steroetype ........

I have many stories like this .. when people say .. I couldn't have guessed you are a Jat .... and this bias is as a result of the the anti-Jat sentiment and conspiracy

If i believe in something ....... i fight for it .. I am not a Thali ka baingan ... I stick to what i believe in

[kharub]

Guys..if you go back to origins of humans, everybody would have same ancestors..not sure how these gotras came into being within same community..we say that Manu created the different classes viz. shudras, khatriyas, brahmins and Vaishya..so initially people in india got divided on the basis of these classes..then further various sub-castes got into being and within those various gotras..so how come marrying in same gotra is genetically wrong? How come the genes of people from same ancestors got divided and so much different that marrying within same gotra is termed a potential medical problem?

And if genetics was the main reason then why don't see a lot of genetically challanged muslims, they marry far closer in the relations than the Jats in this particular case..


Apart from genetics, if their is any cultural reason for these customs, what are they? If its just about not marrying within close relations of sisters/brothers, everybody would be sister/brother eventually if you go back in the Family Tree..

Prashant Bhai look at the Parsi community ........ they have the highest rate of bith deformity and an exceptionally high rate of mental disorders ... i.e mentally challenged children ..... because they intermarry

Muslims are a very diverse lot and they do not intermarry as much as Parsis so it is not so easy to prove that in case of muslims because they do not have the same gene pool

[kharub]

Agreeing to the fact that some of our JAT customs might no longer be practical in today's world will not make any of us any less JATS. The argument that these are age old, tried and tested customs and should be followed with a blindfold just doesn't sit well with me. No new toughts or ideas would ever take place if we just simply kept following old ones.

Don't get me wrong i am as proud a JAT as any but i have no problems with acknowleding that not all JAT customs and practices make perfect sense. We can definitely stand to make more progress if were open to modifications and changes for the good of our own society. We as JATS would make much more progress if we didn't have such big egos and were more receptive to changes that make sense in the long run for our own community.

Chikkara Bhai sahab, just because you do not clearly understand them and the logic behind them does not mean that the customs do not make sense .. Customs did not just happen they have a firm logic and traditions underlining them ....... so rather then dismissing them maybe the emphasis should be on understanding them and the logic behind them a bit better

I am not doubting your Jathood ...... but leaving the tradition behind is not what is meant by being modern ..... it means moving forward with traditions

[kharub]

There is bragging about value, but, if I were to go by the content herein I don't see any value. Sorry Man, but it's cheap.

In the example, the response really reinforced the Guys already biased opinion. On the face the Guy was nice, but, internally might be think what an A* H*.

Sorry man I didn't mean to offend anyone, it is just a flip side observation.


Well you have a right to think what you want ...... I do not state my opinion and stories to impress people ....... I do it because i want to .. i am not selling my self .. so i was neither trying to be cheap nor expensive .. whatever opinion you hold does not bother me

Where was the bragging ?? and what was about values ??

I think you misunderstood me .......... but that does not bother me ... i know what i meant to say and thats all that matters to me

What would you rather have me say .. Oh Thank you I am so flattered that i dont seem like a Jat ..... thats a great compliment ......... I cant see your logic sorry .....

I dont kiss peoples bottoms ... because it comes with being a Jat .. and if confidence gets interpretted as arrogance then its the percievers fault and not mine