An Inconvenient Truth

[priti]

[posted this in my other thread but thought its better to start a new one on this important topic]

I wanted to to talk about this documentary in my 'creative movies' thread but realised its more of a general topic to talk about.

Climate change is a reality, this winter I traveled to three places which are supposed to be cold- moscow, delhi and back to toronto...

Toronto had a mild winter this year (and last year too), I was told lake ontario freezes up at times and typically in december january the temperatures are below zero, the city municipality has a hard time keeping the open ice rinks functional, this winter the zero temperatures have started only now (end of jan.) and are not going to last any longer....on the western coast...vancouver (which is supposed to have mild winters) has been freezing and has had snow storms this winter...

Moscow is supposed to be colder than Toronto...i went there and came back my shoes all dirty with the melting snow in the height of winter...

Delhi has already started becoming warm...my father tells me that when they were young, there used to be frost everywhere in the mornings at this time of the year...

I am not a scientist, so I dont know how this all happens, this is just an account of my perceptions...and then I saw this movie made by Al Gore (who lost to Bush in the race to presidential elections with a narrow and very much disputable margin).

http://www.climatecrisis.net/

If its all true (i'm again being a scpetic), then we do have a duty to do what we can in our capacity....we have people on this website from all over the world, some are already aware of these issues through the general discourses around them, but most hear and dismiss....

Sometimes I think why should I care, I have pretty good life and nothing's going to happen in my lifetime....i am not going to get affected by climate change....the turning point for me was realising that if ever my children come into being, their whole existence will be at stake...maybe this is our responsibility for the future generations...or maybe I still dont care because I dont have anybody following me in life...but what about people who have children, would love to hear from them on what they think...is it our responsibility to provide a safe climate as inheritance or do you think why should we care, future generations will face 'their' destiny....

[deepakchoudhry]

Hi Priti,

I'm not a scientist but I know Planet (Creation) has constantly been changing...It was never the same and will never be same in the future.

Everything eventually will be destroyed (ie the final dance of shiva).

All we have done is pushed mother nature to move into a faster gear.

Govt can force people to change lifestyles i.e. high duty on fuel etc etc with which I dont agree.

I'm afraid we have to learn to adapt to these changes and invent better technologies fast !!!

Deepak

PS: Pls go ahead and buy that 4WD 4.0 Liter Guzzler you always wanted...dont feel guilty.:D

[trueblueindian]

Dont feel like consuming my energies here on this thread but all's a result of Global warming......... climate is dramatically changing... no doubts n no debate can help that :( :rolleyes:

[priti]

my dear friend...your statement appears very pessimist....think you didn't go through the thread properly in saving the energies for 'more' important topics...my question was whether you feel responsible for your future generations or you think they should face and deal with the mess we've left them....

Dont feel like consuming my energies here on this thread but all's a result of Global warming......... climate is dramatically changing... no doubts n no debate can help that :( :rolleyes:

[priti]

Will definitely never be the same but i think things could be done to make it more sustainable and few things are moving towards it....

I dont agree with government regulations as well (unless we are all moving towards doom with our habits and government steps in) and I feel that within free economy we can acheive environmental sustainability...

Free market does what people want to do...if a rational human being thinks that with current practices his future is at stake, they will demand for technologies that help create better environment...so free markets are not a problem...they are based on rational behaviour.....

The problem i think is that rational behaviour is often equated just with profit maximisation, and in that pursuit only, as you say, we have pushed mother earth in a fast and faster gear...global warming is a result of putting short term profitability ahead of a longer term perspective...

A good thing is that it all depends on what people like us want, if we want a green car, there will be a market for green car, which will lead to greater demand for green car, the investors will invest in companies which produce green car, the valuations for companies producing green cars will go up...so all this cycle can actually be turned into a virtuous cycle too rather than the resource consuming vicious one...it just depends on each of us...



Hi Priti,

I'm not a scientist but I know Planet (Creation) has constantly been changing...It was never the same and will never be same in the future.

Everything eventually will be destroyed (ie the final dance of shiva).

All we have done is pushed mother nature to move into a faster gear.

Govt can force people to change lifestyles i.e. high duty on fuel etc etc with which I dont agree.

I'm afraid we have to learn to adapt to these changes and invent better technologies fast !!!

Deepak

PS: Pls go ahead and buy that 4WD 4.0 Liter Guzzler you always wanted...dont feel guilty.:D

[trueblueindian]

my dear friend...your statement appears very pessimist....think you didn't go through the thread properly in saving the energies for 'more' important topics...my question was whether you feel responsible for your future generations or you think they should face and deal with the mess we've left them....

welll preeti its not about saving my energy for a more IMP. topic.... but all i did was i saved sum energy.....lol:D as u suggested n now again am consuming it coz of your misinterpreation............:p :)

no i certianlly dont feel myself responsible..... no one individually can be responsible for these things .... can u just question urself.... ur reasoning here on this topic is consumng hell lot of energy aswell ..... ur PC... my PC... other PPLs PC.... servers... satelites n wot not....:o its ok to be a rational thinker but then think wot u can actually do in real life..... priti plz ask urself ... have u been responsible in all applied senses to your elders, nation.................. n wot not.... if yes then think about future... more so this reminds me most vital word in geeta "KARMA" just be worried about ur individual actions n things would be right .... moreso whn we cant controll present how can we effectively plan n worry for future :confused:

it is all development dear.... no one knew 20 years down the line that we can intreat in such a way ... its a by product of that wasted energy n mess we are leaving behind.... but then we are creating better things for our future enerations.... u get sumthing n u consume few .... n then u leave few for future................... aslo energy is somthing which can never distructed... it allways floats around in some way or other

[priti]

funny :) ...i dont mind you spending your 'renewable' energies on discussing how to save earth's non renewable ones...:p welll preeti its not about saving my energy for a more IMP. topic.... but all i did was i saved sum energy.....lol:D as u suggested n now again am consuming it coz of your misinterpreation............:p :)

[trueblueindian]

funny :) ...i dont mind you spending your 'renewable' energies on discussing how to save earth's non renewable ones...:p

hahahhahahahahahaha all is in spirits dear..... n yeah my energies..... they are allways dieng to be consumed i was jusss cautioned after i read such a serious issue related to saving precious energy :eek: :p :rolleyes: :confused: :D

[trueblueindian]

funny :) ...i dont mind you spending your 'renewable' energies on discussing how to save earth's non renewable ones...:p

Mind it priti my 'renewable' energies are derived from earth's non renewable ones... :p :rolleyes: :D .... i consume bread, water, electricity, fuel, infrastructure n blah - blah for my day to day needs..... ..hehehhehehehee :p

Infact now feel that am the culprit ...................>>>>>>>>>> :p :rolleyes: :D

[priti]

i cant say i have been completely responsible...thats not for me to say...the least i can do is try...and i am trying.....

we can argue till doom'sday :p over what is responsible (in terms of creating the so called zero footprint on earth) and what is not...lets talk about the aggregate....

many scientists have linked tsunami with global warming, could you have said the same thing, had you been living in the coastal regions of thailand?

What about the poor penguins and polar bears whose habitat is completely being destroyed by it.....you know what if you can do one thing...you can watch this movie if u get time....these things dont get discussed in India much because there are more pressing issues for everyone...like shilpa shetty's 'all called for money' racial slur....:p

yes no one knows 100% but we have a science that has been developed over the years and that science can predict certain outcomes...

maybe, collectively people can have an effect on changing the direction of this development a little bit....

no i certianlly dont feel myself responsible..... no one individually can be responsible for these things .... can u just question urself.... ur reasoning here on this topic is consumng hell lot of energy aswell ..... ur PC... my PC... other PPLs PC.... servers... satelites n wot not....:o its ok to be a rational thinker but then think wot u can actually do in real life..... priti plz ask urself ... have u been responsible in all applied senses to your elders, nation.................. n wot not.... if yes then think about future... more so this reminds me most vital word in geeta "KARMA" just be worried about ur individual actions n things would be right .... moreso whn we cant controll present how can we effectively plan n worry for future :confused:

it is all development dear.... no one knew 20 years down the line that we can intreat in such a way ... its a by product of that wasted energy n mess we are leaving behind.... but then we are creating better things for our future enerations.... u get sumthing n u consume few .... n then u leave few for future................... aslo energy is somthing which can never distructed... it allways floats around in some way or other

[priti]

oh yes, you are :D .....Mind it priti my 'renewable' energies are derived from earth's non renewable ones... :p :rolleyes: :D .... i consume bread, water, electricity, fuel, infrastructure n blah - blah for my day to day needs..... ..hehehhehehehee :p

Infact now feel that am the culprit ...................>>>>>>>>>> :p :rolleyes: :D

[raj2rif]

Dear Priti,
It is a nice topic that you have brought up for discussion. I have not seen the movie though, but it was widely covered on US media at the time of release. I think Mr. Al Gore has brought out a very pertinent topic to fore front and must be credited for that.
We do have a responsibility to take creative and necessary action now to help our future generations. The passivity to such an important issue may not help us. While we can't vouch for others we on our own can take the necessary measure to conserve the environment and preserve the balance.
Once again thanks a lot for raising an important topic.

[dahiyarules]

I am not into this global-warming thing. But, I do my bit to contribute less trash to the environment.

I save all batteries that I use.

I have reduced my driving considerably. I always wished to have Military Issue Hummer, which I will very soon. But that wont be everyday use. I will use it maybe 4-6 weekends a year or for hauling heavy loads here and there.

[priti]

thats quite commendable considering you dont buy into global warming arguments! I dont know whats your time frame for buying a hummer but there might actually be a hybrid one by then....maybe a little more expensive but might actually save on your gas bills!

I am not into this global-warming thing. But, I do my bit to contribute less trash to the environment.

I save all batteries that I use.

I have reduced my driving considerably. I always wished to have Military Issue Hummer, which I will very soon. But that wont be everyday use. I will use it maybe 4-6 weekends a year or for hauling heavy loads here and there.

[priti]

not a carbon neutral person...but...I do

- separate my household garbage for recycling
- Reduce it as much as I can
- keep the thermostat switched off when not required (wear a sweater or two to be cosy...it feels like indian winter time at home)
- take public transport when i can
- switch off light bulbs and unplug electronics whenever i can remember(keeps the place a little more spartan)
- love unpackaged stuff....lush is a good one for toiletries, st. lawrance market is great for food produce
- pursuade (to little success) my investment analyst husband that corporate social and environmental performance matters for the bottomline and thus to shareholders
- work and research in social and environmental finance.

[trueblueindian]

What about the poor penguins and polar bears whose habitat is completely being destroyed by it.....you know what if you can do one thing...you can watch this movie if u get time....these things dont get discussed in India much because there are more pressing issues for everyone...like shilpa shetty's 'all called for money' racial slur...



well wot makes u write that statement priti ....... ok we have time only for such things but then how did u come across this thing....:rolleyes: i hope u turn ur ears deaf opon hearing such stuff...... right????? :confused: BTW thx for making me aware about this topic.... i really didnt knew about it.......:p :rolleyes: :D

Also for ur info this drama has been staged in ur thinking and responsible west not in india ... also the monetry benefits were to the channel there n not here .... i doubt that show is aired in india....:eek: :confused: :rolleyes:

Cummmon priti i still cant controll my laughter ............. as wot was the need to say this ......... how many years have u been in west ????? u go on to say that before going to west u were also mentally sick n now u r suddenly enlightened and think about whole world....... i wish i was there tooo... so that i can also be a sensible person and the one who dosent gossip around allways..... :o :p

please be assured ppl in india are very sensible and are doing their bit in all spehers of life ... but then exceptions and a mix of all type of ppl is there in whole world... then wy only india or indians have to be blamed ....

i wonder there are more gossip mag's n programmes in US then in india !!!! now u decide ................

[dahiyarules]

thats quite commendable considering you dont buy into global warming arguments! I dont know whats your time frame for buying a hummer but there might actually be a hybrid one by then....maybe a little more expensive but might actually save on your gas bills!

Ha Ha Ha @ Hybrid Hummer.

The hummer would loose its objective if they will ever make the battery operated ones.

Batteries can never produce the kind of torque that gasoline or diesel engines can, unless the battery operated engine is the size of a house.

The only reason I am buying a Military Issue one is because I cannot afford the civilian version. :) I think I have to compromise the leather interiors, Bose sound system, navigation, sunroof/moon roof, climate controlled seats. and what not.

Besides, I do not think my hummer will melt the arctic sheets as I do not plan to use it for more than 3000 miles a year.

The reason I do not buy into the global warming propaganda is because of the kind of people it comes from. If you look at the credentials of the people who are at the forefront of the global warming propaganda, you will see that they are hardcore left wing socialists who resent private enterprise.

Global warming is just the front to hinder development of industrial infrastructure.

If someone uses the term "Climate Change" I am all ears to it. It is just a cycle that we are going through. The earth is switching poles. The climate may get warmer in the years to come. Sea levels may rise. But, then it will be ice-age again. If you look at the evolution of earth, you will see this pattern.

[trueblueindian]

The reason I do not buy into the global warming propaganda is because of the kind of people it comes from. If you look at the credentials of the people who are at the forefront of the global warming propaganda, you will see that they are hardcore left wing socialists who resent private enterprise.

Global warming is just the front to hinder development of industrial infrastructure.

If someone uses the term "Climate Change" I am all ears to it. It is just a cycle that we are going through. The earth is switching poles. The climate may get warmer in the years to come. Sea levels may rise. But, then it will be ice-age again. If you look at the evolution of earth, you will see this pattern.


In agreement wid u sumit..... how can we forget that today life on earth is because of the climate change .... its something natural and will go on for eternity.... after all nature teaches us one very imp. thing and thats "change" so be ready for it !!!!!!!!! :) ;)

wy make hue n cry all the times... yeah the doccumentry may be gud and on such issues generally we all find them to be gud... coz it involves emotions and we the humans are known as emotional creatures so no big deal and as sumit suggested earlier just do your bit n thats more than sufficient and saving energy also means saving money so every sensible person does that

[desijat]

I think what we are experiencing now is nothing less than what we saw in the movie Day After Tomorrow

For those who havent seen it, it states that since we have not been considerate enough for nature, there would be a repetition of what happened a few milleniums ago.
There would be an Ice Age again and things would start again from zero.... All the northern hemisphere would be covered by ice, things will freeze @ once



On the same note, i would like to remind people of a decision that Delhi govt took, to make CNG necessary for diesel run heavy vehicles/\ We can see the difference allready in the air of Delhi

[deepakchoudhry]

not a carbon neutral person...but...I do

- separate my household garbage for recycling
- Reduce it as much as I can
- keep the thermostat switched off when not required (wear a sweater or two to be cosy...it feels like indian winter time at home)
- take public transport when i can
- switch off light bulbs and unplug electronics whenever i can remember(keeps the place a little more spartan)
- love unpackaged stuff....lush is a good one for toiletries, st. lawrance market is great for food produce
- pursuade (to little success) my investment analyst husband that corporate social and environmental performance matters for the bottomline and thus to shareholders
- work and research in social and environmental finance.

Hi Priti,

In our homes in India thanks to combination of economics and morals (i.e. money factor and it is sin to waste) we are taught this from early childhood.

But what makes me laugh is the way the propaganda machine in the West is working on this issue.

It reminds me of analogy of a person who does not take sugar in the tea but stuffs oneself with Chocolate and Candies. :)

Deepak

[deepakchoudhry]

Prince Charles awared Green Citizen of the world...LOL

Have a read and see the hypocrisy. :D

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,21088068-2703,00.html

[priti]

i dont know why you got so hyper....what i said is true that environmental issues dont get discussed in India...well wot makes u write that statement priti ....... ok we have time only for such things but then how did u come across this thing....:rolleyes: i hope u turn ur ears deaf opon hearing such stuff...... right????? :confused: BTW thx for making me aware about this topic.... i really didnt knew about it.......:p :rolleyes: :D

Also for ur info this drama has been staged in ur thinking and responsible west not in india ... also the monetry benefits were to the channel there n not here .... i doubt that show is aired in india....:eek: :confused: :rolleyes:

Cummmon priti i still cant controll my laughter ............. as wot was the need to say this ......... how many years have u been in west ????? u go on to say that before going to west u were also mentally sick n now u r suddenly enlightened and think about whole world....... i wish i was there tooo... so that i can also be a sensible person and the one who dosent gossip around allways..... :o :p

please be assured ppl in india are very sensible and are doing their bit in all spehers of life ... but then exceptions and a mix of all type of ppl is there in whole world... then wy only india or indians have to be blamed ....

i wonder there are more gossip mag's n programmes in US then in india !!!! now u decide ................

[rakeshdahiya]

Dear Priti,

I agree with u that climate is changing drastically.....i would like to give the example of Singapore...i was told that the rainy seson in singapore is Nov Dec but this year it has rained in aug sept and oct as well and its raining very heavily in Jan also.....u must have read abt floods in Malasia......i was told that rain has been unusually heavy this year(inspite of Songapore being a tropical country)....i agrree tyat its all because of Global warming.....we should do our little bit to save our earth....akhir boond boond se hi sagar bhartaa hai.............

[desijat]

Hi Priti,
It reminds me of analogy of a person who does not take sugar in the tea but stuffs oneself with Chocolate and Candies. :)

Deepak

This reminds me...

Yesterday was my friends birthday, and we were having a very heavy indian meal which consisted of allmost everything one could think of. One of my friends had a heavy dinner, lost of sweet dishes , and at the end asked for Diet coke:p :p :p :p

[ritu]

i wonder there are more gossip mag's n programmes in US then in india !!!! now u decide

tbi bhai u r forgetting preety is in canada not in us.

[trueblueindian]

i wonder there are more gossip mag's n programmes in US then in india !!!! now u decide

tbi bhai u r forgetting preety is in canada not in us.

koye naaaa bebey US and canada or for that matter europe.... aek sei aae sei..... i was just reacting on pritis statement about the intreasts of indian ppl......:rolleyes: nothing more and it was about goras not NRI's and also for those few NRI's who dont miss a chance to cuss and discuss india and its ppl on every single opportunity..... berra na uddde pahunchtae aae kaunsi high headedness ke shikaar ho jya sei few ppl ( now not commentng on u priti :p :) )

[trueblueindian]

i dont know why you got so hyper....what i said is true that environmental issues dont get discussed in India...

Priti well am not that hyper but the way u talked about how ppl in india are concerned about things made me upset..... u just cant generealise things ..... :mad:

u muss be in the feild of enviormetel sciences and must be concerned also...... no doubts i respect your concerns ....... but then the way indians have preserved enviorment from centuries is one gud example ....... also a very nice example quoted by deepak... have a look.... i guess u should write something on this so that westren ppl learn and adopt these wonderfull qualities..... now cheer up:)

FOR YOUR INFO - -- even havan / sarso ke tael key diya's / gossse (uplas) help purify the enviorment to a great extent..... yahan tou dharam mei bhi enviorment ko aage rakkkha gaya hai ji.... and if u researh closely u will find many such wonderfull ideas....:rolleyes:


last but not least - - - u can destroy less or more enviorment but you just cant stop destroying it .... also no science can change the climate... its the principle of nature to change from time to time n thats wy we all are in existence...

[priti]

Among all the things I said, you picked this to discuss....bhai jisne duniya dekhi hai woh uske baare mein baat bhi kar sake hai....ibb tu manne batauga ki mein india ko discuss kar sakti hun ya nahin...jiske baare mein concern hoti hai uske baare mein bola bhi jata hai....do you have a problem if i discuss my country and say that an important aspect is missing from the economic discussions....ya haade sirf khilli udaan khater aaya kare...enlightened te mein india mein ye hogi thee....jab wahan ke garment workers ko interview karti thi aur ankhon mein aansu aa jaate the, jab dilli ke gaam saare industrialise hoge...saans lena mushkil hoga....jab saaran ne keh keh ke pareshaan hogi akk bhai dustbin bas do kadam door se..uss me phek diyo i kagaj ke glass ne....

we aren't always going to remain in the upla era....just wait and see what haryana becomes after five years if no environmental norms are established....

Dilli ke pollution ka haal to mein khud dekh ke aa rahi hun...despite the cng and everything...

water table in India is going low....

All these things are not a result of evolution of earth, they are result of bad practicies in economic activities....

The purpose of starting this thread was to share a concern, to see how responsible people feel about these things...I gather not much...thats fine by me...to each his own...the least one can do for having the priviledge of human brain is to make informed choices....its fine if people knowlingly dont care...the problem is when people dont care to know...

god probably gave equal importance to all species...what has that leopard who killed brutally by villagers lately in India done to deserve that fate...we are increasingly occupying habitats of other species (read transgressing)...we'll probably keep token lions in the zoos to show to future generations..yeah those existing once upon a time...

and let me clarify how I became enlightened...not because I have lived in 'the west' but because of my experience in and outside india...

high headed NRIs....bs......look around you in delhi and let me know how many modest and level headed people you see....many think of themselves as gods just on the qualification of having a politician relative...and yes why should NRIs not be high headed...they have gone to a different country, have made it own their own in a foreign environment and are doing their country proud....and if i'm not wrong a little credit should be given to these NRIs in creating the current India phenomenon in the world...so much for generalizations...

I would be very grateful if people who respond to this thread stick to the topic...

koye naaaa bebey US and canada or for that matter europe.... aek sei aae sei..... i was just reacting on pritis statement about the intreasts of indian ppl......:rolleyes: nothing more and it was about goras not NRI's and also for those few NRI's who dont miss a chance to cuss and discuss india and its ppl on every single opportunity..... berra na uddde pahunchtae aae kaunsi high headedness ke shikaar ho jya sei few ppl ( now not commentng on u priti :p :) )

[desijat]

I would agree to you PRiti di But i would differ on the note that we are not doing anything..

For instance, when it came to pollution then we did implement CNG, and trust me, if i can feel the difference in the Air of Delhi then it is really changing. Delhi is going more beautiful day by day.

Secondly, Boring(Digging for water) is not allowed in certain areas of South Delhi and some other parts where water level has dipped very below. This is an order passed by the court, however i do agree that corrupt officers still let it happen in a few private institutions for bribes.

People still spit on the road, inspite of dustbins on every few 100 meters.
People still urinate in open, inspite of urinals being provided by government in every major public place.

It isnt that we are not doing anything, but just that we are failing in educating people.


India and Indians have always been reactive, and not proactive as our friends in west are. We dont sense the threat before, and if somehow we get to know it then we try to ignore it by closing our eyes(most of the times)

[priti]

I think your reason is pretty reasonable...terms are usually highjacked to serve propaganda...and many times by groups who have formed a certain opionion about things and wouldn't budge form it....but we have to differentiate between propaganda and reality...even to make good economic sense....i'll come back to this later...first i need to emphasise that- one we have natural climate change....second, we have climate change which is not natural but due to unrestrained human activities...

now, coming to the economic sense of climate change...some developments and examples...carbon trading.....companies adopting policies on climate change....its a shame that US hasn't signed the kyoto till now and north America in general is far behind Indian and chinese standards of car emissions! (now Sandesh dont get too happy....that happened because tata wanted to export cars to EU and EU has pretty strict standards in vehicle emissions...thus the same standards had to be implemented in India...which is great!).

negative effect of using bad technologies...an oil spill in alaska cost BP 36 million everyday! just imagine what it would do to its quarterly/annual results! alternative energy is the next big sector for investors...all big energy companies are spending big money on alternative energy R&D

pension funds are moving into responsible investments i.e. considering the stakeholder and environmental issues in the valuations of companies...now that is something considering the amount and nature of money PFs have worldwide...

I can go on and on about how these things link up and we actually need to look at their logic and not who's talking about them....its the venture capitalists who're coming up with the most innovative and socially responsible technologies and practices nowadays...so private enterpreneurship is actually a boon for this sector...

The reason I do not buy into the global warming propaganda is because of the kind of people it comes from. If you look at the credentials of the people who are at the forefront of the global warming propaganda, you will see that they are hardcore left wing socialists who resent private enterprise.

Global warming is just the front to hinder development of industrial infrastructure.

If someone uses the term "Climate Change" I am all ears to it. It is just a cycle that we are going through. The earth is switching poles. The climate may get warmer in the years to come. Sea levels may rise. But, then it will be ice-age again. If you look at the evolution of earth, you will see this pattern.

[priti]

Yes, Vikas, CNG has made a lot of difference and hopefully, Delhi will be world class city in near future, and for this very reason we need to talk about these things...I think among all the cities in India, Delhi has done far better in terms of creating infrastructure in a very short span of time...its all commendable and thanks to Dikshit for getting some world city issues to delhi....still a big scope for improvement....

Should we be limited to Delhi? I would be inclined to ask Deepender (although his constituency would probably be very small) what his plans are about environmental norms in haryana...maybe they are alreayd in place...its very significant part of opening your borders to industry and letting them know that you would not tolerate lax environmental standards...


I would agree to you PRiti di But i would differ on the note that we are not doing anything..

For instance, when it came to pollution then we did implement CNG, and trust me, if i can feel the difference in the Air of Delhi then it is really changing. Delhi is going more beautiful day by day.

Secondly, Boring(Digging for water) is not allowed in certain areas of South Delhi and some other parts where water level has dipped very below. This is an order passed by the court, however i do agree that corrupt officers still let it happen in a few private institutions for bribes.

People still spit on the road, inspite of dustbins on every few 100 meters.
People still urinate in open, inspite of urinals being provided by government in every major public place.

It isnt that we are not doing anything, but just that we are failing in educating people.


India and Indians have always been reactive, and not proactive as our friends in west are. We dont sense the threat before, and if somehow we get to know it then we try to ignore it by closing our eyes(most of the times)

[neels]

...what i said is true that environmental issues dont get discussed in India...

Hi Priti, I am following ur thread since last few days. You are right in your concern, and so is everyone. This is not so that its not discussed in India or the Indians are not aware about it. Its discussed, as well the required steps are being taken to overcome this problem. The Govt is trying its level best to tackle the environmental hazards. But the major issue is India has huge population and that is a mix of all sort. The large segment of our poplulation in uneducated or undereducated, and their living conditions are like that , that environment problems, cleanliness hardly matters to them, and hardly they understand what impact it can have in the coming times. This unawareness inturn is depleting the natural resouces, as well polluting the present atmosphere.
Such an alarming situation requires a collective action in the form of corrective measures implemented by the govt. and then conscious efforts on the part of users to maintain them. As Vikas Chaudhary has mentioned, besides being provided with garbage bins, hardly very few of us use them. The reason is deep rooted, we hadnt such facilities earlier and are in habit of littering. Thou hard, But the Bad Habits need to be changed.This is just one example, similar concern should be adopted for saving resources and keeping the environment clean. First of all we need to change ourselves, and then try to make others aware.
This calls for a conscious effort on everyone's part. Nothing will come out by blaming the Govt. or the infrastructure or each other.

[trueblueindian]

i donnno again that u urself have to rely to every thing and u want others to just stick to the topic.....WHY :confused: :rolleyes:

Dear priti ji its ok... i can easily rely to all your eye brow raised answers but again i dont find a reason to do so..... well i guess the topic was of world enviorment and not only indian enviorment.....

Vikas its only that white shirt abb kaali nahi hotti.... but more or less pollution levels have not gone much down... though one gud thing is that the increase in pollution level has gone doown drasticallly... and that in itself is an achivement..

Priti ji....... i dont care u agree or not but indeed properly done havans (mass activity) help purify enviorment and use of uplas had also prooved enviorment friendly... lastely sarso key tael ka diya bhi bade kaam ki cheez hai... soorma for ankh and purification of air..... and i said that coz these practices were and are still followed in this country..... and if u are blaming industrilisation for bad enviorment then only thing is world stops these activities... and return to stone age... is that possible.... man has allways progressed and would do so in future ..... no one can stop the ever developing and ever progressing human mind....

seee if one interprets all these things as suggested by you thers absolutely nothing wrong in it but we just cant avoid these damages.... we can and we should really controlll litter and all that but thats not wy enviorment is degrading its all thanx to industrial waste whn tonnes of toxic chemicals and other harming stuff goes into rivers and earth.... thats the main cause and it could not be avoided as on date..

If u arent aware even in delhi some zones have distributed waste management system in place where bio - degradable and non bio degradable waste is seprated and treated accordingly and this system is in place for more than 2 years now..

as pointed out by Dr. neelam population is other key factor to this problem.... but then if we see it on global scale india must not be throwig more than 1-2 % of the total pollution.... if u have figuers priti ji.... plz share

[rraajjeevv]

There is a lot that the developed nations have to do first before asking the poorer countries. The main cause of global warming is the emission of carbon dioxide. According to this website (http://maps.grida.no/go/graphic/national_carbon_dioxide_co2_emissions_per_capita), India lies way below the developed countries. For example on per capita basis USA emit 20 times more, Australia 18, Canada 14, Norway 11, Germany/Japan 9 times.
Coming to population, the overall population of India may be high but the population density of India is about 336 per square kilometer which is less than countries like Japan, Taiwan, SOuth Korea, etc (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_density). I am sure India can sustain a higher population. India has always been highly populated compared to other counrties for the last few thousand years.

If you try and find the data on the generation of waste per household I am sure that figure for India would again be miniscule compared to the developed countries.

What i would like to say is that agreed India needs to do more for the environment, but then there are other countries who lecture us on environment to do a lot more themselves before asking us. First and foremost India needs to be able to provide a decent standard of life to its citizens.

BTW, you can do more for the environment if you switch off your appliances from the mains (including your computer monitors) rather than use your remote to switch it off or put it in stand by.

[priti]

Thats right Rajeev, I agree with you on per capita carbon emissions. India's per capita carbon emission is 1/6th of the world average (with a population poor or below poverty line which uses only biomass for fuel...so that helps in these figures). Despite this, it is among the top ten countries in contributing to greenhouse gases. This share is only bound to grown in future (as the population is upwardly mobile economically) and this gives serious reasons to pay heed.

For those who are interested to find out more on the , these are three sites to visit (linked with sustainable development):

Newly formed committee on climate change, ministry of environment:
http://envfor.nic.in/cc/youth.htm

TERI:
http://static.teriin.org/climate/climate.htm (see viewpoints too)

CSE:
http://www.cseindia.org/programme/geg/wssd_index.htm

Best
Priti

There is a lot that the developed nations have to do first before asking the poorer countries. The main cause of global warming is the emission of carbon dioxide. According to this website (http://maps.grida.no/go/graphic/national_carbon_dioxide_co2_emissions_per_capita), India lies way below the developed countries. For example on per capita basis USA emit 20 times more, Australia 18, Canada 14, Norway 11, Germany/Japan 9 times.
Coming to population, the overall population of India may be high but the population density of India is about 336 per square kilometer which is less than countries like Japan, Taiwan, SOuth Korea, etc (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_density). I am sure India can sustain a higher population. India has always been highly populated compared to other counrties for the last few thousand years.

If you try and find the data on the generation of waste per household I am sure that figure for India would again be miniscule compared to the developed countries.

What i would like to say is that agreed India needs to do more for the environment, but then there are other countries who lecture us on environment to do a lot more themselves before asking us. First and foremost India needs to be able to provide a decent standard of life to its citizens.

BTW, you can do more for the environment if you switch off your appliances from the mains (including your computer monitors) rather than use your remote to switch it off or put it in stand by.

[rraajjeevv]

Thats right Rajeev, I agree with you on per capita carbon emissions. India's per capita carbon emission is 1/6th of the world average (with a population poor or below poverty line which uses only biomass for fuel...so that helps in these figures). Despite this, it is among the top ten countries in contributing to greenhouse gases. This share is only bound to grown in future (as the population is upwardly mobile economically) and this gives serious reasons to pay heed.
Best
Priti
It is wrong to assume that burning of biomass does not contribute to greenhouse gases. In fact that is the most inefficient approach to using energy. Moreover, cattles are also responsible for greenhouse gases by contributing to methane in the atmosphere. Cow 'emissions' more damaging to planet than CO2 from cars (http://news.independent.co.uk/environment/article2062484.ece). If you search google on cattle+greenhouse you will come across numerous such sources.
You wrote overall India is among the top ten countries in contributing to greenhouse gases. Would not it be foolish to look at the overall contribution instead of what a single India contributes to global warming? That is unless you want us to shoot overselves in our foot or maybe you regard four Indians equal to a single foreigner. In the matters of national interest I appreciate the CHinese approach, they do not give a damn what the world thinks about their actions. They do whatever is in their national interests. Even Canada does not give a damn when animal protestors complain about annual culling of hundreds of thousand of innocent seals ( i believ it was 300,000 last time)

I am not advocating that India should not worry about the future environmental distaster. There are simple things that we can do. For example how many petrol stations in India do not sell adulterated fuel. I would say there would not be any. Fuel adulteration not only increases co2 emission it also damages the engines. And what about the condition of the roads? DOes not those need improving? Or you might just argue fewer roads mean fewer vehicles and lesser greanhouse emissions. And voila, we are safe from global warming.

[priti]

Thats what I wrote...that a single indian contributes less but on an aggregate the country's contribution is among top ten...am I missing something?

You are right...issues are everywhere...but they get discussed with a far more intensity ....anyway it depends on what the priorities are of a particular nation...i'm not making comparisons or passing judgments...just an observation...:)

Very nice example of petrol stations...I hope that people on this site who own a petrol pump would read this.

In addition to what individuals can do to reduce the unnatural pace of climate change, a big responsibility also lies on government and corporations. The good thing is governments and corporations are also made up of individuals...who can listen, think and act....everyone in their own capacity can act...employed people can ask their companies what their environmental policies are (the issues differ from sector to sector...for example, software companies would not have to deal with environmental issues in a major way as manufacturing companies), enterpreneurs can see that their operations do not create a huge waste, consumers have the biggest influence...they can chose to buy from companies that have sound environmental policies, practcies and products....so I think a whole lifecycle approach embracing all parts of life might be taken...and this is just one issue of our lifetimes :eek: , there many others....


You wrote overall India is among the top ten countries in contributing to greenhouse gases. Would not it be foolish to look at the overall contribution instead of what a single India contributes to global warming?

Even Canada does not give a damn when animal protestors complain about annual culling of hundreds of thousand of innocent seals ( i believ it was 300,000 last time)

I am not advocating that India should not worry about the future environmental distaster. There are simple things that we can do. For example how many petrol stations in India do not sell adulterated fuel. I would say there would not be any. Fuel adulteration not only increases co2 emission it also damages the engines. And what about the condition of the roads? DOes not those need improving? Or you might just argue fewer roads mean fewer vehicles and lesser greanhouse emissions. And voila, we are safe from global warming.

[shailendra]

...Hmmm, a very good and productive discussion[on one extremely 'hot' topic] Priti!

I wonder how I missed it as it seems to have been around for more than a couple of days here I see! (must be because of the title and initial intent of the thread which was about the Al Gore movie...I am sure I would not have side stepped it if it screamed ‘Global Warming’ in the first place! Reminds me though; I still need to watch that movie!)…

Chalo daer aaye dursut aaye….though I think I am gonna wait, collect my thoughts before posting and/or jumping into a discussion that is apparently already doing very-very well indeed, [and therefore avoid ending up sounding like I don’t know my monsoons and snowflakes!]

But my quick thoughts before exiting? It is obviously not something that has one straight shot answer or single way to counter act the obvious digression of the climate happening everywhere. But be warned; It is also painfully and increasingly becoming apparent that it would require some real pro-active moves by everyone (individually) on this planet to start making a difference bit by bit!

Anyways, like I mentioned; it is definitely becoming a very interesting read here…(I specially liked the one about the plans on acquiring an Army Humvee; especially since the more rugged stripped down H1 Hummer is definitely more expensive than the commercial H2 Hummer! …but really, more than that I guess it was the use of a the word ‘Hummer’ and ‘climate’ all in the same place that dropped me off my chair! ;) Ah well…)

Anyways, before exiting this post (and I hope to be back with more discussions hopefully on this) here are a couple of cartoons on this weird climate conditions of our Earth that I saw somewhere and posting here for everyone to enjoy!

[priti]

Welcome to the thread! :) and thanks for putting the cartoonist's lens on the topic...very subtle and very effective...

Looking forward to your views here....

...Hmmm, a very good and productive discussion[on one extremely 'hot' topic] Priti!

I wonder how I missed it as it seems to have been around for more than a couple of days here I see! (must be because of the title and initial intent of the thread which was about the Al Gore movie...I am sure I would not have side stepped it if it screamed ‘Global Warming’ in the first place! Reminds me though; I still need to watch that movie!)…

Chalo daer aaye dursut aaye….though I think I am gonna wait, collect my thoughts before posting and/or jumping into a discussion that is apparently already doing very-very well indeed, [and therefore avoid ending up sounding like I don’t know my monsoons and snowflakes!]

But my quick thoughts before exiting? It is obviously not something that has one straight shot answer or single way to counter act the obvious digression of the climate happening everywhere. But be warned; It is also painfully and increasingly becoming apparent that it would require some real pro-active moves by everyone (individually) on this planet to start making a difference bit by bit!

Anyways, like I mentioned; it is definitely becoming a very interesting read here…(I specially liked the one about the plans on acquiring an Army Humvee; especially since the more rugged stripped down H1 Hummer is definitely more expensive than the commercial H2 Hummer! …but really, more than that I guess it was the use of a the word ‘Hummer’ and ‘climate’ all in the same place that dropped me off my chair! ;) Ah well…)

Anyways, before exiting this post (and I hope to be back with more discussions hopefully on this) here are a couple of cartoons on this weird climate conditions of our Earth that I saw somewhere and posting here for everyone to enjoy!

[priti]

the reason for saying that use of biomass as fuel helps India's figures is not to say that it does not emit CO2 but that it doesn't get counted because of its unmetered use...

the household waste also does not get numbered as its disposal is random...maybe not in big cities anymore...

the random waste disposal is displayed ...if one happen to go to hill stations or where there has been a landslide of any proportion...one can see plastic between layers of soil....very unhealthy for nature....these are but little things which can be observed...

according to the given figures of per capita CO2 (the UNEP graph)...India is actually at no. 5! (and growing) in total CO2 emissions after US, China, Russia and Japan in that order if you just multiply the per capita with their respective populations...

As suggested by Sandesh, it could actually be a good idea to go back to some traditional technologies selectively....like climate control houses we used to have in the villages with 'Gaj' and 'obras'. New architectectural solutions anybody....Shailendra...

Folks from the US need to worry the most!! their per capita as well as aggregate CO2 contribution is way higher than anybody.....approximate figures:

US: 298*20 = 5960
China: 1313*2.2 = 2888
Russia: 143*10 = 1430
Japan: 127*9.5 = 1206
India: 1095*1.1 = 1204

As Neelam said, the population factor definitely plays in any discussion regarding India, imagine if with 1.1 per capita average, India is number 5, what will happen when this increases (and it is increasing for sure....among the top 5 its only US which has a decreasing average at the moment...maybe even Japan but I doubt it)...



Thats right Rajeev, I agree with you on per capita carbon emissions. India's per capita carbon emission is 1/6th of the world average (with a population poor or below poverty line which uses only biomass for fuel...so that helps in these figures). Despite this, it is among the top ten countries in contributing to greenhouse gases. This share is only bound to grown in future (as the population is upwardly mobile economically) and this gives serious reasons to pay heed.

[vivek]

I remember reading in the 70's that there was going to be an ice age due to pollution in the atmosphere. Now its global warming. People forget that the polar caps on Mars are melting too, and there is global warming on Mars.

Sun is a variable star, and earth's orbit also is not completely stationary around the sun. The point is that there are too many variables that make a climate. There have been ice age in the past, and there also has been tropical climate in the artic circle as evidenced by fossils of Wolly mammoth with tropical vegetation in their stomach. I am skeptic about the political laced arguments by scientist. As I type this, the temperature outside is -16C with -35C windchill in West Michigan...the coldest day here in 20 years.

Below is a link to a counter argument.. I agree with the scientist that Kyoto is not the best way to go, as you would get minimal affect for monies spent.

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/story.html?id=156df7e6-d490-41c9-8b1f-106fef8763c6&k=0

[priti]

Nice contribution to the debate Vivek.

Its good to see that no matter what the reasoning, there is a consensus on cutting back conventional resources...

[ranjitjat]

http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4372&highlight=kyoto KYOTO
nice subject carry on debating
When I started this thread in 2002.
Not a sigle reply until 2005
Total reply is 3 in 5 years.
This show how much we care about
climate change
Green-black-vlue- white revolution
Polution
Friendly debate
or any thing
any problem
concerning
Human beings
Jat Community
our life
our children life
mankind future.
most of the time good topic like this lost in personal issues.
Ego problem
some time in the past I appeal to discuss only problem & Issues = Subject
I was told you are the biggest problem of jatland. I stayed away for few years from the site.
We can see more and more problems now.
So where is the problem ?
Who is problem ?
This is Anadipana- Jattpana- Panga Lena.
Abhi tak to Jat Panchayat agree hi nahi hue hae ki Koe Glowal warming ki problem bhi hae. Hal to dur ki bat hae.
Jabki yah Kisan ki hi sabse jayda problem hae.
Rain ka hona- nahi hona- akdam mosam badlna- flood etc

[Samarkadian]

not a carbon neutral person...but...I do

- separate my household garbage for recycling
- Reduce it as much as I can
- keep the thermostat switched off when not required (wear a sweater or two to be cosy...it feels like indian winter time at home)
- take public transport when i can
- switch off light bulbs and unplug electronics whenever i can remember(keeps the place a little more spartan)
- love unpackaged stuff....lush is a good one for toiletries, st. lawrance market is great for food produce
- pursuade (to little success) my investment analyst husband that corporate social and environmental performance matters for the bottomline and thus to shareholders
- work and research in social and environmental finance.

I 've heard a lot about this movie by Al gore but cudnt got it yet.You are very right about coming gen., rather in life cycle, if we get chance to get human birth again, we might be infants again and if we dnt care at present we only wud be victims.I was reminded of a book where whole chapter was dedicated about it Dr Brain Weiss(only Love is real).Its really appreciative of you Priti ji to make a list and follow them.I will contribute on my own,family and friends.Good Luck.This thread should be continued as long as earth.

[vivek]

Earth has gone through these cycles of ice age and warmth before. Dr. Sallie Balinuis is a very respected scientist who is a full professor at Harvard. Here's an interesting interview with her.

http://www.reason.com/news/show/30760.html

Dr. Richard Lindzen is a full professor at MIT. Here's an interesting interview with him.

http://www.carolinajournal.com/exclusives/display_exclusive.html?id=3837

Indian climatologist
http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1925164,0008.htm

Did you know that sun is a variable star and has been incredibly active recently.
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/060926_solar_activity.html
http://www.handpen.com/Bio/sun_freaks.html

The sad part is that the debate on global warming has become political instead of scientific, and failed academic like Gore have become authority figures with publicity seeking rock stars and alarmist media all profiting from this.

This doesn't mean that we should be wasteful...just recognize that earth is not going to end up like venus tommorow.

[priti]

I dont understand why people have a problem with hype created around important issue. If it is an important issue, it should be hyped and somebody has to do the job of conveying the scientific knowledge in layman's terms.

With all due respect to the view of the Academics in the links Vivek, and agreeing with him in terms of nonclarity of purpose and effectiveness of regulations, From what I hear, there is a fair amount of consensus in the scientific community about global warming due to human activities, maybe thats because of the funding going down that channel, but then there are lots of agencies who stand to lose from the global warming argument who would be funding research too, so where's that bit of research. At the end of the day, human activities are destroying the planet keeping other things constant, looking around, its common sense. Now nobody is sure about tomorrow, an asteroid might come and hit the planet in all likelihood, there are several factors beyond control of humans. But the factors which are in our control should be paid attention to.

I dont know, maybe afterall, greed will be the solution afterall, checkout the link below on business case for paying heed to climate change....10% of all GHG emissions are from companies participating in the surveys...and they are doing something about it, even if only under investor groups' pressure...

http://www.cdproject.net/aboutus.asp

[kabir]

Sheikh re Skeikh (read: Gore re Gore)! Aappa to dekh.

http://www.abcnews.go.com/Politics/GlobalWarming/story?id=2906888&page=1

[sidchhikara]

funny :) ...i dont mind you spending your 'renewable' energies on discussing how to save earth's non renewable ones...:p
They cause GW. Why would we want to save them to reduce GW?

[sidchhikara]

India has not been a major contributor to the phenomenon. Each American consumes energy eq to 51 Indians - they havent signed Kyoto either. Some ppl in far out villages dont even have electricity.

[priti]

I suggest you go through the thread in its entirety...

India has not been a major contributor to the phenomenon. Each American consumes energy eq to 51 Indians - they havent signed Kyoto either. Some ppl in far out villages dont even have electricity.

[dahiyarules]

recently saw the documentary "An Inconvenient Truth." I fell asleep 15 minutes into it. I was declared guilty of dereliction of duty by other hippies present at the screening. :P :P So, I yawned and walked out and slept in the parking lot. Damn the freaks!

[priti]

:) may you have fair amount of sleep before your next documentary, or the next thing you watch be on hummers and anti government themes to have your attention :D.......

recently saw the documentary "An Inconvenient Truth." I fell asleep 15 minutes into it. I was declared guilty of dereliction of duty by other hippies present at the screening. :P :P So, I yawned and walked out and slept in the parking lot. Damn the freaks!

[dahiyarules]

:) may you have fair amount of sleep before your next documentary, or the next thing you watch be on hummers and anti government themes to have your attention :D.......

Is that the best you can do? Make me feel like a scumbag?

What is it with the hummers? Why do you hippies take out your ire on hummers? They are just another vehicle which consume slightly more fuel compared to smaller vehicles. But, considering the fact that they serve a niche market, there aren't many hummers around. Even the ones who have hummers use it as secondary means of transport considering the costs. So the net effect of having hummers is close to zero.

Dont get into the anti-govt debate. You seem to be a smart person. Make some valid arguments instead of character bashing of those who dare to disagree with you. Your god Al gore flies around the world in a private jet which burns several hundred times more fuel than my little car. Not to forget his mansions, each of which consumes nearly 20 times of electricity consumes by an average household.

All you hippies can do is indulge in character assassination and still fail to make conclusive arguments.

I will bow to you if you give up your urban lifestyle and start living in the trees. Until then I have just one word for you and your fellow pot smoking hippies: HYPOCRITES.

[priti]

Did u wake up on the wrong side of the bed or what??

I just stated your preferences in jest and if that makes you feel like a scumbag, then its your problem man...

And thats the best you can do, anybody who has a different belief system than you- categorise all of them as hippies....what are you? A cocaine sniffing drug lord!!

Get out of your chicago school (even they are changing late in their lives- read milton friedman's late interviews) and think of things as they are in reality, there is nothing like efficient markets in reality. I have never supported ineffective governance and regulations.....and do you have a better alternative??

Arnold has a fleet of hummer and I have nothing against him, he's doing good...and this stand alone report on Al Gore's lifestyle, they seem to me like character assasination when the critiques have run out of gas on arguments....

For your sensibilities, maybe these two chicago school people may appeal to you better as cost analysis of global warming....
http://www.becker-posner-blog.com/archives/2007/02/global_warming_1.html

http://www.becker-posner-blog.com/archives/2007/02/global_warmingp.html

As for living in trees my dear, I would seriously consider more progressive and innovative suggestion from you than going back to being primitive....



Is that the best you can do? Make me feel like a scumbag?

What is it with the hummers? Why do you hippies take out your ire on hummers? They are just another vehicle which consume slightly more fuel compared to smaller vehicles. But, considering the fact that they serve a niche market, there aren't many hummers around. Even the ones who have hummers use it as secondary means of transport considering the costs. So the net effect of having hummers is close to zero.

Dont get into the anti-govt debate. You seem to be a smart person. Make some valid arguments instead of character bashing of those who dare to disagree with you. Your god Al gore flies around the world in a private jet which burns several hundred times more fuel than my little car. Not to forget his mansions, each of which consumes nearly 20 times of electricity consumes by an average household.

All you hippies can do is indulge in character assassination and still fail to make conclusive arguments.

I will bow to you if you give up your urban lifestyle and start living in the trees. Until then I have just one word for you and your fellow pot smoking hippies: HYPOCRITES.

[dahiyarules]

I do not belong to Chicago School. I belong to the "Jiyo aur Jeene Do" school. I categorize all hypocrites who want to make people like me feel bad for our belief in a liberty-based system as hippies.

I do my part to reduce my footprint on the environment. Infact I do more than Al Gore, Barbara Streisand, George Clooney, Leonardo Di Caprio put together.

The problem I have with the so-called environmental conscious movement is that they want to impose their values on me while they fly around in pvt. jets, have 10 mansions, all airconditioned from floor to ceiling etc.

Come on yaar, your right to expect environment consciousness on my part, ends at my doorstep.

Did u wake up on the wrong side of the bed or what??

I just stated your preferences in jest and if that makes you feel like a scumbag, then its your problem man...

And thats the best you can do, anybody who has a different belief system than you- categorise all of them as hippies....what are you? A cocaine sniffing drug lord!!

Get out of your chicago school (even they are changing late in their lives- read milton friedman's late interviews) and think of things as they are in reality, there is nothing like efficient markets in reality. I have never supported ineffective governance and regulations.....and do you have a better alternative??

Arnold has a fleet of hummer and I have nothing against him, he's doing good...and this stand alone report on Al Gore's lifestyle, they seem to me like character assasination when the critiques have run out of gas on arguments....

For your sensibilities, maybe these two chicago school people may appeal to you better as cost analysis of global warming....
http://www.becker-posner-blog.com/archives/2007/02/global_warming_1.html

http://www.becker-posner-blog.com/archives/2007/02/global_warmingp.html

As for living in trees my dear, I would seriously consider more progressive and innovative suggestion from you than going back to being primitive....

[deepakchoudhry]

This Documentary is a Hog wash....But people are simply not interested to consider any other view point.

Those who beileve in Logic and Science you can check these points for yourself.

Few Facts

1) CO2 is not responsible for greenhouse effect. It is not a greenhouse Gas.
2) Earth has always been changing and continous to change. Ice Age, Hot Periods etc etc

So whats resposnible

1) Sun Storms
2) Cosmic Rays entering into Trosphere (Pls google them both to find details explainations)


This has been hyped by

1) The socialists who want us to go back 100 years.
2) The (so called) Enviornmental Scientist who want Govt funding
3) The Whole Environment Industry whose bread and Butter depends on it.

And It has also been Hijacked by

1) By policy makers and politicians who dont want countries in Africa and Asia should ever develop.
2) Another way to increase Tax

The dont want that millions living in poor countries should have a better quality of life.

And media is completly biased and manage to brain wash ignorant and informed alike.

Deepak

[Samarkadian]

I 've been following this thread since it started and then thought to refresh my ideas with surfing. Channel 4 has also aired a documentary "The Great Global Warming Swindle" by Martin Durkin who has claimed the cause of Global warming (?) is not co2 rather solar disturbances and More of Co2 is emitted by volcanos than human activity.

I have gone through many sites and found some interesting facts about book written by Al Gore. One is here by Ian Murray, titled "Gorey Truths
25 inconvenient truths for Al Gore".

"1. Carbon Dioxide’s Effect on Temperature. The relationship between global temperature and carbon dioxide (CO2), on which the entire scare is founded, is not linear. Every molecule of CO2 added to the atmosphere contributes less to warming than the previous one. The book’s graph on p. 66-67 is seriously misleading. Moreover, even the historical levels of CO2 shown on the graph are disputed. Evidence from plant fossil-remains suggest that there was as much CO2 in the atmosphere about 11,000 years ago as there is today.
2. Kilimanjaro. The snows of Kilimanjaro are melting not because of global warming but because of a local climate shift that began 100 years ago. The authors of a report in the International Journal of Climatology “develop a new concept for investigating the retreat of Kilimanjaro’s glaciers, based on the physical understanding of glacier–climate interactions.” They note that, “The concept considers the peculiarities of the mountain and implies that climatological processes other than air temperature control the ice recession in a direct manner. A drastic drop in atmospheric moisture at the end of the 19th century and the ensuing drier climatic conditions are likely forcing glacier retreat on Kilimanjaro
3. Glaciers. Glaciers around the world have been receding at around the same pace for over 100 years. Research published by the National Academy of Sciences last week indicates that the Peruvian glacier on p. 53-53 probably disappeared a few thousand years ago.

4. The Medieval Warm Period. Al Gore says that the “hockey stick” graph that shows temperatures remarkably steady for the last 1,000 years has been validated, and ridicules the concept of a “medieval warm period.” That’s not the case. Last year, a team of leading paleoclimatologists said, “When matching existing temperature reconstructions…the timeseries display a reasonably coherent picture of major climatic episodes: ‘Medieval Warm Period,’ ‘Little Ice Age’ and ‘Recent Warming.’” They go on to conclude, “So what would it mean, if the reconstructions indicate a larger…or smaller…temperature amplitude? We suggest that the former situation, i.e. enhanced variability during pre-industrial times, would result in a redistribution of weight towards the role of natural factors in forcing temperature changes, thereby relatively devaluing the impact of anthropogenic emissions and affecting future temperature predictions.”
5. The Hottest Year. Satellite temperature measurements say that 2005 wasn't the hottest year on record — 1998 was — and that temperatures have been stable since 2001 (p.7
6. Heat Waves. The summer heat wave that struck Europe in 2003 was caused by an atmospheric pressure anomaly; it had nothing to do with global warming. As the United Nations Environment Program reported in September 2003, “This extreme wheather [sic] was caused by an anti-cyclone firmly anchored over the western European land mass holding back the rain-bearing depressions that usually enter the continent from the Atlantic ocean. This situation was exceptional in the extended length of time (over 20 days) during which it conveyed very hot dry air up from south of the Mediterranean.”

7. Record Temperatures. Record temperatures — hot and cold — are set every day around the world; that’s the nature of records. Statistically, any given place will see four record high temperatures set every year. There is evidence that daytime high temperatures are staying about the same as for the last few decades, but nighttime lows are gradually rising. Global warming might be more properly called, “Global less cooling.” (On this, see Patrick J. Michaels book, Meltdown: The Predictable Distortion of Global Warming by Scientists, Politicians, and the Media.)
8. Hurricanes. There is no overall global trend of hurricane-force storms getting stronger that has anything to do with temperature. A recent study in Geophysical Research Letters found: “The data indicate a large increasing trend in tropical cyclone intensity and longevity for the North Atlantic basin and a considerable decreasing trend for the Northeast Pacific. All other basins showed small trends, and there has been no significant change in global net tropical cyclone activity. There has been a small increase in global Category 4–5 hurricanes from the period 1986–1995 to the period 1996–2005. Most of this increase is likely due to improved observational technology. These findings indicate that other important factors govern intensity and frequency of tropical cyclones besides SSTs [sea surface temperatures].”

9. Tornadoes. Records for numbers of tornadoes are set because we can now record more of the smaller tornadoes (see, for instance, the Tornado FAQ at Weather Underground).

10. European Flooding. European flooding is not new (p. 107). Similar flooding happened in 2003. Research from Michael Mudelsee and colleagues from the University of Leipzig published in Nature (Sept. 11, 2003) looked at data reaching as far back as 1021 (for the Elbe) and 1269 (for the Oder). They concluded that there is no upward trend in the incidence of extreme flooding in this region of central Europe.
11. Shrinking Lakes. Scientists investigating the disappearance of Lake Chad (p.116) found that most of it was due to human overuse of water. “The lake’s decline probably has nothing to do with global warming, report the two scientists, who based their findings on computer models and satellite imagery made available by NASA. They attribute the situation instead to human actions related to climate variation, compounded by the ever increasing demands of an expanding population” (“Shrinking African Lake Offers Lesson on Finite Resources,” National Geographic, April 26, 2001). Lake Chad is also a very shallow lake that has shrunk considerably throughout human history.



Contd.................

[Samarkadian]

12. Polar Bears. Polar bears are not becoming endangered. A leading Canadian polar bear biologist wrote recently, “Climate change is having an effect on the west Hudson population of polar bears, but really, there is no need to panic. Of the 13 populations of polar bears in Canada, 11 are stable or increasing in number. They are not going extinct, or even appear (sic) to be affected at present.”

13. The Gulf Stream. The Gulf Stream, the ocean conveyor belt, is not at risk of shutting off in the North Atlantic (p. 150). Carl Wunsch of MIT wrote to the journal Nature in 2004 to say, “The only way to produce an ocean circulation without a Gulf Stream is either to turn off the wind system, or to stop the Earth’s rotation, or both”

14. Invasive Species. Gore’s worries about the effect of warming on species ignore evolution. With the new earlier caterpillar season in the Netherlands, an evolutionary advantage is given to birds that can hatch their eggs earlier than the rest. That’s how nature works. Also, “invasive species” naturally extend their range when climate changes. As for the pine beetle given as an example of invasive species, Rob Scagel, a forest microclimate specialist in British Columbia, said, “The MPB (mountain pine beetle) is a species native to this part of North America and is always present. The MPB epidemic started as comparatively small outbreaks and through forest management inaction got completely out of hand.”

15. Species Loss. When it comes to species loss, the figures given on p. 163 are based on extreme guesswork, as the late Julian Simon pointed out. We have documentary evidence of only just over 1,000 extinctions since 1600 (see, for instance, Bjørn Lomborg’s The Skeptical Environmentalist, p. 250).

16. Coral Reefs. Coral reefs have been around for over 500 million years. This means that they have survived through long periods with much higher temperatures and atmospheric CO2 concentrations than today.

17. Malaria and other Infectious Diseases. Leading disease scientists contend that climate change plays only a minor role in the spread of emerging infectious diseases. In “Global Warming and Malaria: A Call for Accuracy” (The Lancet, June 2004), nine leading malariologists criticized models linking global warming to increased malaria spread as “misleading” and “display[ing] a lack of knowledge” of the subject.

18. Antarctic Ice. There is controversy over whether the Antarctic ice sheet is thinning or thickening. Recent scientific studies have shown a thickening in the interior at the same time as increased melting along the coastlines. Temperatures in the interior are generally decreasing. The Antarctic Peninsula, where the Larsen-B ice shelf broke up (p. 181) is not representative of what is happening in the rest of Antarctica. Dr. Wibjörn Karlén, Professor Emeritus of Physical Geography and Quaternary Geology at Stockholm University, acknowledges, “Some small areas in the Antarctic Peninsula have broken up recently, just like it has done back in time. The temperature in this part of Antarctica has increased recently, probably because of a small change in the position of the low pressure systems.” According to a forthcoming report from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, climate models based on anthropogenic forcing cannot explain the anomalous warming of the Antarctic Peninsula; thus, something natural is at work.

19. Greenland Climate. Greenland was warmer in the 1920s and 1930s than it is now. A recent study by Dr. Peter Chylek of the University of California, Riverside, addressed the question of whether man is directly responsible for recent warming: “An important question is to what extent can the current (1995-2005) temperature increase in Greenland coastal regions be interpreted as evidence of man-induced global warming? Although there has been a considerable temperature increase during the last decade (1995 to 2005) a similar increase and at a faster rate occurred during the early part of the 20th century (1920 to 1930) when carbon dioxide or other greenhouse gases could not be a cause. The Greenland warming of 1920 to 1930 demonstrates that a high concentration of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases is not a necessary condition for period of warming to arise. The observed 1995-2005 temperature increase seems to be within a natural variability of Greenland climate.” (Petr Chylek et al., Geophysical Research Letters, 13 June 2006.)

20. Sea Level Rise. The United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change does not forecast sea-level rises of “18 to 20 feet.” Rather, it says, “We project a sea level rise of 0.09 to 0.88 m for 1990 to 2100, with a central value of 0.48 m. The central value gives an average rate of 2.2 to 4.4 times the rate over the 20th century...It is now widely agreed that major loss of grounded ice and accelerated sea level rise are very unlikely during the 21st century.” Al Gore’s suggestions of much more are therefore extremely alarmist.

21. Population. Al Gore worries about population growth; Gore does not suggest a solution. Fertility in the developed world is stable or decreasing. The plain fact is that we are not going to reduce population back down to 2 billion or fewer in the foreseeable future. In the meantime, the population in the developing world requires a significant increase in its standard of living to reduce the threats of premature and infant mortality, disease, and hunger. In The Undercover Economist, Tim Harford writes, “If we are honest, then, the argument that trade leads to economic growth, which leads to climate change, leads us then to a stark conclusion: we should cut our trade links to make sure that the Chinese, Indians and Africans stay poor. The question is whether any environmental catastrophe, even severe climate change, could possibly inflict the same terrible human cost as keeping three or four billion people in poverty. To ask that question is to answer it.”

[Samarkadian]

22. Energy Generation. A specific example of this is Gore’s acknowledgement that 30 percent of global CO2 emissions come from wood fires used for cooking (p. 227). If we introduced affordable, coal-fired power generation into South Asia and Africa we could reduce this considerably and save over 1.6 million lives a year. This is the sort of solution that Gore does not even consider.

23. Carbon-Emissions Trading. The European Carbon Exchange Market, touted as “effective” on p. 252, has crashed.

24. The “Scientific Consensus.” On the supposed “scientific consensus”: Dr. Naomi Oreskes, of the University of California, San Diego, (p. 262) did not examine a “large random sample” of scientific articles. She got her search terms wrong and thought she was looking at all the articles when in fact she was looking at only 928 out of about 12,000 articles on “climate change.” Dr. Benny Peiser, of Liverpool John Moores University in England, was unable to replicate her study. He says, “As I have stressed repeatedly, the whole data set includes only 13 abstracts (~1%) that explicitly endorse what Oreskes has called the ‘consensus view.’ In fact, the vast majority of abstracts does (sic) not mention anthropogenic climate change. Moreover — and despite attempts to deny this fact — a handful of abstracts actually questions the view that human activities are the main driving force of ‘the observed warming over the last 50 years.’” In addition, a recent survey of scientists following the same methodology as one published in 1996 found that about 30 percent of scientists disagreed to some extent or another with the contention that “climate change is mostly the result of anthropogenic causes.” Less than 10 percent “strongly agreed” with the statement. Details of both the survey and the failed attempt to replicate the Oreskes study can be found here.

25. Economic Costs. Even if the study Gore cites is right (p. 280-281), the United States will still emit massive amounts of CO2 after all the measures it outlines have been realized. Getting emissions down to the paltry levels needed to stabilize CO2 in the atmosphere would require, in Gore’s own words, “a wrenching transformation” of our way of life. This cannot be done easily or without significant cost. The Kyoto Protocol, which Gore enthusiastically supports, would avert less than a tenth of a degree of warming in the next fifty years and would cost up to $400 billion a year to the U.S. All of the current proposals in Congress would cost the economy significant amounts, making us all poorer, with all that that entails for human health and welfare, while doing nothing to stop global warming.

Finally, Gore quotes Winston Churchill (p. 100) — but he should read what Churchill said when he was asked what qualities a politician requires: “The ability to foretell what is going to happen tomorrow, next week, next month and next year. And to have the ability afterwards to explain why it didn't happen.”


refernce--http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=YmFiZDAyMWFhMGIxNTgwNGIyMjVkZjQ4OGFiZjFlNjc=

PS-My intention is not at all to load the site. I tried to give this topic a direction.

I'm still in confusion over the issue? Can anyone sum it up ? Preeti Ji?

[priti]

Sure Samar, a little tied up right now but will sum it up soon....

22. Energy Generation. A specific example of this is Gore’s acknowledgement that 30 percent of global CO2 emissions come from wood fires used for cooking (p. 227). If we introduced affordable, coal-fired power generation into South Asia and Africa we could reduce this considerably and save over 1.6 million lives a year. This is the sort of solution that Gore does not even consider.

23. Carbon-Emissions Trading. The European Carbon Exchange Market, touted as “effective” on p. 252, has crashed.

24. The “Scientific Consensus.” On the supposed “scientific consensus”: Dr. Naomi Oreskes, of the University of California, San Diego, (p. 262) did not examine a “large random sample” of scientific articles. She got her search terms wrong and thought she was looking at all the articles when in fact she was looking at only 928 out of about 12,000 articles on “climate change.” Dr. Benny Peiser, of Liverpool John Moores University in England, was unable to replicate her study. He says, “As I have stressed repeatedly, the whole data set includes only 13 abstracts (~1%) that explicitly endorse what Oreskes has called the ‘consensus view.’ In fact, the vast majority of abstracts does (sic) not mention anthropogenic climate change. Moreover — and despite attempts to deny this fact — a handful of abstracts actually questions the view that human activities are the main driving force of ‘the observed warming over the last 50 years.’” In addition, a recent survey of scientists following the same methodology as one published in 1996 found that about 30 percent of scientists disagreed to some extent or another with the contention that “climate change is mostly the result of anthropogenic causes.” Less than 10 percent “strongly agreed” with the statement. Details of both the survey and the failed attempt to replicate the Oreskes study can be found here.

25. Economic Costs. Even if the study Gore cites is right (p. 280-281), the United States will still emit massive amounts of CO2 after all the measures it outlines have been realized. Getting emissions down to the paltry levels needed to stabilize CO2 in the atmosphere would require, in Gore’s own words, “a wrenching transformation” of our way of life. This cannot be done easily or without significant cost. The Kyoto Protocol, which Gore enthusiastically supports, would avert less than a tenth of a degree of warming in the next fifty years and would cost up to $400 billion a year to the U.S. All of the current proposals in Congress would cost the economy significant amounts, making us all poorer, with all that that entails for human health and welfare, while doing nothing to stop global warming.

Finally, Gore quotes Winston Churchill (p. 100) — but he should read what Churchill said when he was asked what qualities a politician requires: “The ability to foretell what is going to happen tomorrow, next week, next month and next year. And to have the ability afterwards to explain why it didn't happen.”


refernce--http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=YmFiZDAyMWFhMGIxNTgwNGIyMjVkZjQ4OGFiZjFlNjc=

PS-My intention is not at all to load the site. I tried to give this topic a direction.

I'm still in confusion over the issue? Can anyone sum it up ? Preeti Ji?

[sidchhikara]

I suggest you go through the thread in its entirety...
I saw thw post where you had some math regarding carbon contribution. What are those numbers??

[dahiyarules]

What happened to the acid rains and the ozone layer being depleted.

This anti-development socialists come up with some new BS theory every ten years.

[priti]

...its not the anti development socialists but very pro development scientists who had come up with ozone layer hole and depletion....and maybe the awareness resulted in reduced CFc gases worldwide and they were successful in avoiding the problem.......

What happened to the acid rains and the ozone layer being depleted.

This anti-development socialists come up with some new BS theory every ten years.

[priti]

Summary of the thread:

About the documentary:
Since the inception of this thread, it has gone on to win an oscar and is becoming too high profile for its own good.

- Most people on jatland believe its a hogwash (I dont know how many have watched it)

- People see it as a political movie than an awareness raising exercise and because of this, the 'issue' is not getting attention as it should be regardless of the political and other motivations


About the Issue:
- No consensus that there is a problem. Most people believe that this phenomenon could be explained variously thus no conclusive support for human activities causing global warming.

- As is common in everything, self-interest drives how people perceive environmental issues, most have preconceived notions which they are not willing to change because it would mean change in their status quo. Self interest her also means nationality, beliefs and identity.

- Problem- no leading scientist has come out in support of the theory (atleast not to my knowledge- which is limited), its mainly being championed by agencies, politicians and corporations

- Another problematic aspect of this issue is the doomsday treatment, everyone would probably agree on conservation and innovation in technology especially in energy sector, but not all agree that doomsday is near if things aren't changed...so doomsday is not helping the issue of conservation...

- On this site, most of us are Indians and environmental issues are considered as a cost rather than startegic economic advantage....i think for the future of development this needs to be changed...for competing globally environmental standards have at par or better....we should strive for higher standards and not race to the bottom....India took advantage of the IT boom, it should not hesitate in adopting new technologies that help efficient use of resources....its a benefit not a cost...

Thanks everyone for participating...

[dahiyarules]

...its not the anti development socialists but very pro development scientists who had come up with ozone layer hole and depletion....and maybe the awareness resulted in reduced CFc gases worldwide and they were successful in avoiding the problem.......

Airconditioning around the world still uses the so called ozone-depleting CFC components. Airconditioning and refrigerents were the main target of the ozone layer mania.

Its just that these conspiracies fall apart within a few years of being around.

I am sure you will be saying that we probably prevented the arctic caps from melting for blah blah blah reason, 10 years from now.

[dahiyarules]

Summary of the thread:

About the documentary:
Since the inception of this thread, it has gone on to win an oscar and is becoming too high profile for its own good.

- Most people on jatland believe its a hogwash (I dont know how many have watched it)

- People see it as a political movie than an awareness raising exercise and because of this, the 'issue' is not getting attention as it should be regardless of the political and other motivations


About the Issue:
- No consensus that there is a problem. Most people believe that this phenomenon could be explained variously thus no conclusive support for human activities causing global warming.

- As is common in everything, self-interest drives how people perceive environmental issues, most have preconceived notions which they are not willing to change because it would mean change in their status quo. Self interest her also means nationality, beliefs and identity.

- Problem- no leading scientist has come out in support of the theory (atleast not to my knowledge- which is limited), its mainly being championed by agencies, politicians and corporations

- Another problematic aspect of this issue is the doomsday treatment, everyone would probably agree on conservation and innovation in technology especially in energy sector, but not all agree that doomsday is near if things aren't changed...so doomsday is not helping the issue of conservation...

- On this site, most of us are Indians and environmental issues are considered as a cost rather than startegic economic advantage....i think for the future of development this needs to be changed...for competing globally environmental standards have at par or better....we should strive for higher standards and not race to the bottom....India took advantage of the IT boom, it should not hesitate in adopting new technologies that help efficient use of resources....its a benefit not a cost...

Thanks everyone for participating...

Priti!

Go an start living in the trees. Stop using electricity and fossil fuels. Maybe then I will grant you my audience. Till then you are just a pain for my ears.

[priti]

Sumit, I do not need your audience alone, and you do not need to visit this thread if its pain to you. I dont know what you're trying to prove by attacking it like this. I thought you were rational....but sadly you're missing the entire point here.......

Priti!

Go an start living in the trees. Stop using electricity and fossil fuels. Maybe then I will grant you my audience. Till then you are just a pain for my ears.

[priti]

why not, might actually be able to say that since lots of people do actually work on this issue rather than contest it on every front...

There is no relation between collectivism and environmental issues. It is equally grabbed by a socialist and a capitalist fyi!!




Airconditioning around the world still uses the so called ozone-depleting CFC components. Airconditioning and refrigerents were the main target of the ozone layer mania.

Its just that these conspiracies fall apart within a few years of being around.

I am sure you will be saying that we probably prevented the arctic caps from melting for blah blah blah reason, 10 years from now.

[priti]

Those numbers mean how much a country collectively is contributing to carbon emissions ..

I saw thw post where you had some math regarding carbon contribution. What are those numbers??

[priti]

Hi Deepak

CO2 is the second largest contributor to the greenhouse effect- after water vapors........



Few Facts

1) CO2 is not responsible for greenhouse effect. It is not a greenhouse Gas.
2) Earth has always been changing and continous to change. Ice Age, Hot Periods etc etc

So whats resposnible

1) Sun Storms
2) Cosmic Rays entering into Trosphere (Pls google them both to find details explainations)


This has been hyped by

1) The socialists who want us to go back 100 years.
2) The (so called) Enviornmental Scientist who want Govt funding
3) The Whole Environment Industry whose bread and Butter depends on it.

And It has also been Hijacked by

1) By policy makers and politicians who dont want countries in Africa and Asia should ever develop.
2) Another way to increase Tax

The dont want that millions living in poor countries should have a better quality of life.

And media is completly biased and manage to brain wash ignorant and informed alike.

Deepak

[kabir]

Whether one buys or not the environment argument, there's no denying the fact that if individuals/authorities start acting in a more responsible fashion, things do improve.

Delhi is an example of that. The introduction of CNG and greenification drive brought down the pollution level considerably. It might still be bad but a whole lot better than what it used to be once.

Summary of the thread:

About the documentary:
Since the inception of this thread, it has gone on to win an oscar and is becoming too high profile for its own good.

- Most people on jatland believe its a hogwash (I dont know how many have watched it)

- People see it as a political movie than an awareness raising exercise and because of this, the 'issue' is not getting attention as it should be regardless of the political and other motivations


About the Issue:
- No consensus that there is a problem. Most people believe that this phenomenon could be explained variously thus no conclusive support for human activities causing global warming.

- As is common in everything, self-interest drives how people perceive environmental issues, most have preconceived notions which they are not willing to change because it would mean change in their status quo. Self interest her also means nationality, beliefs and identity.

- Problem- no leading scientist has come out in support of the theory (atleast not to my knowledge- which is limited), its mainly being championed by agencies, politicians and corporations

- Another problematic aspect of this issue is the doomsday treatment, everyone would probably agree on conservation and innovation in technology especially in energy sector, but not all agree that doomsday is near if things aren't changed...so doomsday is not helping the issue of conservation...

- On this site, most of us are Indians and environmental issues are considered as a cost rather than startegic economic advantage....i think for the future of development this needs to be changed...for competing globally environmental standards have at par or better....we should strive for higher standards and not race to the bottom....India took advantage of the IT boom, it should not hesitate in adopting new technologies that help efficient use of resources....its a benefit not a cost...

Thanks everyone for participating...

[priti]

Thinking about it, its hard to believe that you're questioning ozone depletion,

kindly check this link to remove some of your doubts:

http://www.ec.gc.ca/soer-ree/English/Indicator_series/new_issues.cfm?issue_id=5&tech_id=21

if it still remains...visit any university's environmental science department and you might just think that it happened....


Airconditioning around the world still uses the so called ozone-depleting CFC components. Airconditioning and refrigerents were the main target of the ozone layer mania.

Its just that these conspiracies fall apart within a few years of being around.

I am sure you will be saying that we probably prevented the arctic caps from melting for blah blah blah reason, 10 years from now.

[priti]

Yes, one does not have to on the verge of collapse to be acting...

Whether one buys or not the environment argument, there's no denying the fact that individuals/authorities start acting in a more responsible fashion, things do improve.

Delhi is an example of that. The introduction of CNG and greenification drive brought down the pollution level considerably. It might still be bad but a whole lot better than what it used to be once.

[vivek]

Hi Deepak

CO2 is the second largest contributor to the greenhouse effect- after water vapors........

You are wrong on that one priti. Methane contributes a lot more than C02...but its not practical to contain cow emmissions etc etc. Also lets not forget how environmentalist might have killed off millions of humans by banning DDT.

DDT was cheaply produced and had a very good safety profile. Yet based upon some book by an environmentalist..(and without any scientific basis) , DDT production was banned. Malaria was almost eradicated before its ban...but made a comeback again, and has killed millions. The sad thing is that the insecticide on the market today has a worse safety profile than DDT, and is much more expensive to produce. This is what happens when people without scientific background become hysterical about a cause.

[sidchhikara]

Those numbers mean how much a country collectively is contributing to carbon emissions ..
Well our population if 4 times the U.S.

[hdsura]

I've heard that there are more than 7 billion people on earth and the amount of CO2 generated from their **art is creating ozone layer depletion. Have you thought of its REMEDY?



not a carbon neutral person...but...I do

- separate my household garbage for recycling
- Reduce it as much as I can
- keep the thermostat switched off when not required (wear a sweater or two to be cosy...it feels like indian winter time at home)
- take public transport when i can
- switch off light bulbs and unplug electronics whenever i can remember(keeps the place a little more spartan)
- love unpackaged stuff....lush is a good one for toiletries, st. lawrance market is great for food produce
- pursuade (to little success) my investment analyst husband that corporate social and environmental performance matters for the bottomline and thus to shareholders
- work and research in social and environmental finance.

[deepakchoudhry]

Hi Priti,

I'm not a scientist but common sense says...We all have CO2 element in us (plants/animals/plants).

And ocean / sea / rivers / ponds who are the biggest emitter of Co2 gas than human factories put together.

We must respect nature, but I'm against the proporganda and hypocricy.

Vedic thought compares earth (and all it empasses) to as mother. We are taught to respect rivers, trees etc etc in our rituals. Which I'm sure most indians born in India are aware of.

I just get amused, when I hear western nations take such a moral ground when they are themselves the biggest polluter on this planet.

Per woh kehte hai naa...dayr aaye dursat aaye. :)

Warm regrads,

Deepak

[piush_tomar]

Arey Priti..Kyo itna soochey..kuch aur topic nahi mila tuje....

cheers

Piyush

[kabir]

I've heard that there are more than 7 billion people on earth and the amount of CO2 generated from their **art is creating ozone layer depletion. Have you thought of its REMEDY?

You've actually heard them all seven billion f*rt! Before I faint, lemme quickly salute you.

[priti]

I wish I'd have the remedy here to everything man...then I wouldn't have to debate it here and reply to your ingenious problems!

I've heard that there are more than 7 billion people on earth and the amount of CO2 generated from their **art is creating ozone layer depletion. Have you thought of its REMEDY?

[priti]

Hey Deepak

I agree with you, nobody should take a higher moral ground on this issue whether its the western countries or eastern...everyone is part of the globe and cant be excused from a global issue...and I do think that nobody is taking the higher moral grounds....

I recently saw the documentary from which you had mentioned some facts...the Great Global Warming Swindle....and I must say I was quite shocked initially by their claim that its all made up by hippies who didn't have anything to do after the Berlin wall collapsed!!! :D my my now i know where its all coming from.........

But then I watched it again...and I thought for a moment...and it appeared to me how much viewership this program will get especially at a time like this where its a top issue in many countries...and the maker is really really smart in that sense....my next post is something I recently got...and I'm sure you must have read the Independent in England recently, where one of the scientist who appeared in the program has clearly said how his quotes have been misrepresented........this program is amazingly deft at leaving people convinced that global warming is a hogwash....no wonder this topic got extra-ordinary opposition here......

anyway, here comes my next post...

Hi Priti,

I'm not a scientist but common sense says...We all have CO2 element in us (plants/animals/plants).

And ocean / sea / rivers / ponds who are the biggest emitter of Co2 gas than human factories put together.

We must respect nature, but I'm against the proporganda and hypocricy.

Vedic thought compares earth (and all it empasses) to as mother. We are taught to respect rivers, trees etc etc in our rituals. Which I'm sure most indians born in India are aware of.

I just get amused, when I hear western nations take such a moral ground when they are themselves the biggest polluter on this planet.

Per woh kehte hai naa...dayr aaye dursat aaye. :)

Warm regrads,

Deepak

[priti]

Hello Folks

(Samar...finally I made some sense of it...)

I'm glad I started this topic here because it not only made me take more initiative to learn more about this almost unknown (to me) issue (which had always been peripheral to my work) but it has also reinforced that simple truths are pretty complicated in real life....

Getting back to the channel 4 'The Great Global Warming Swindle', I recently got the enclosed in my post, and I'm sure its not something I cannot share in this forum. This is a formal complaint to ofcom against the makers of this documentary, the grounds for the complaint is 'misrepresentation' of facts and quotes.....

Its a long read...do it at your pleasure if you want to...also thats why i'm not pasting it here.

[dahiyarules]

Last weekend, it snowed like crazy in Cleveland. It was so bad that the Mariners-Indians game had to be cancelled.

No one could predict the snow a week ago. And here we have these "Global Warming Gurus" predicting the climate 50 years from now.

No one means any offense to you Priti. But, you need to wake up that you have been scammed. Ofcourse there is climate change. But, we humans are not as responsible for it as nature itself. And it aint as bad as the Global Warming Gurus are making it out to be.ANd considering the example I cited above, there should be hardl any doubt that they are BS-ing about whats going to happen 50 years from now.

[shailendra]

Last weekend, it snowed like crazy in Cleveland. It was so bad that the Mariners-Indians game had to be cancelled.

No one could predict the snow a week ago. And here we have these "Global Warming Gurus" predicting the climate 50 years from now.

Ofcourse there is climate change. But, we humans are not as responsible for it as nature itself. And it aint as bad as the Global Warming Gurus are making it out to be.

Oh lord! That means the rest of the world (and it is not just some specialist Gurus we are talking about here) that is suddenly waking up to this stuff, must really be nuts after all!
We all can just call it a day and go back to our SUV's (or is it the 'not-bought-yet' Hummer) without losing too much sleep on this bunch of 'crap', (it's all really the fault of the weather predicting guys who don't know their job after all)...:rolleyes:

Actually you had me convinced right off the bat when you mentioned the crazy snow in Cleveland! :D :D :D

[shailendra]

....You know after all the ridiculous laughs, naysayers, and the friendly ribbing, reading all this reminds me of this article I had read about on Environmental issues which was aptly titled, 'Moment of Truth'....

Very briefly; the whole discussion in the article was about whether if this whole push to save this planet just a fad, or is it actually a turning point???...and of course I couldn't but get reminded of that very discussion reading some of these very questions and the 'aaah, we-aren't-the-ones-responsible' talks happening right here.......

Well, here is why:
The article mentioned an incident wherein this Harvard educated oceanographer who studied climatic changes and how it affects marine life had famously and pompously declared in an interview (Sumit, please pay attention to this)... "The worst stuff is not gong to happen...not that I think that the projection's aren't that [accurate], but because we can't be that stupid!" ...

The article then goes on furthur and lists the overwhelming responses that he got, that well...essentially said, What do you mean, we can't be that stupid? Just look around!!!.......................

People, with that I rest my case...

ps. Well anyways now that we have got that out of the way; here's hoping that maybe in the next following posts we can try and force ourselves to discuss about the issue itself rather than bickering about if it IS an issue or not!

[devdahiya]

We all are responsible for the state of affairs prevailing around us.Nature gave us the best we needed but our greed for comforts coupled with irresponsible behaviour has brought us to this pass.In other words it is our own creation and hence we all have to face the music too.On the brighter side,nature has its own mechanism to balance things in its own way but that is not just free as there is a cost attached to the resultent of every misendeavour undertaken by us all[knowingly or unknowingly].Nature does carry out its cleansing acts in shape of famine,floods,diseases etc from time to time and part of the humanity has to perish every time.So bang on regardless but remember that what we sow the shall we reap.

[ratheetheraist]

We all are responsible for the state of affairs prevailing around us.Nature gave us the best we needed but our greed for comforts coupled with irresponsible behaviour has brought us to this pass.In other words it is our own creation and hence we all have to face the music too.On the brighter side,nature has its own mechanism to balance things in its own way but that is not just free as there is a cost attached to the resultent of every misendeavour undertaken by us all[knowingly or unknowingly].Nature does carry out its cleansing acts in shape of famine,floods,diseases etc from time to time and part of the humanity has to perish every time.So bang on regardless but remember that what we sow the shall we reap.

yes, u r rite pahladpuriye..!!:p :p i agree..!!:p ;) :D :D

[dahiyarules]

(or is it the 'not-bought-yet' Hummer) ! :D :D :D

Did the cost benefit analysis. It is not worth spending 20K on a vehicle that I do not expect to drive more than a 1000 miles a year. Especially considering my "inconvenient" financial situation :D

Boy I love those monsters. Just wanna grind through those swamps and deserts at 80 miles and hour. Someday, I will make it happen.

[spdeshwal]

You also need to wake up my friend!

A lady Dr. at AIMS has revealed in her research paper that Men who wear tight Jeans supported by Global warming would have lowered their chances of fathering babies. She has explained how the Tight Jeans and Global warming reduces the sperm count drastically in men.

[dahiyarules]

You also need to wake up my friend!

A lady Dr. at AIMS has revealed in her research paper that Men who wear tight Jeans supported by Global warming would have lowered their chances of fathering babies. She has explained how the Tight Jeans and Global warming reduces the sperm count drastically in men.

Was it a joke or was it a taunt towards me.

[spdeshwal]

Dear Sumit,

Neither it was a joke nor a taunt towards you but a serious piece of information i wanted to share with you and others. This information was part of a Zee News bulletin on 13th of April 2007. Unfortunately i forgot the name of the Research Scholar but trying to find the link. Scholar's contention was that high temperature in the testes caused by tight under clothes particularly Jeans and enhanced by Global warming destroys the sperms. It was incidental that you have photograph with a jeans trousers. Otherwise i had no intention to embarrass you. I am sorry if you felt that way.

[priti]

Very interesting article about India, other developing countries, carbon trading, kyoto, business sense, and technology transfer....

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Opinion/Sunday_Specials/Deep_Focus/It_pays_to_go/articleshow/msid-1935746,curpg-1.cms