What was haryanvi language called in past ?

[vikaskajal]

Hi Dear Jatlanders.
Haryana as a state came in to existence in 1966.
But our language or boli known as haryanvi was in use much before Haryana was born.
I know haryanvi is a varient of 'KHARI BOLI'.
What was our language named before the state was born ?

Any definate answer or thought is welcome.

[prashantacmet]

good question ??......

[dndeswal]

good question ??......

<O:p</O:p
Rather a childish question. No region on this earth comes in existence through political or administrative boundaries. If tomorrow a state in the name of ‘Vidarbha’ or ‘Bundelkhand’ is created, it does not mean it is ‘born’ or ‘came in existence’ on a so-and-so date. These regions exist for thousands of years and are known by these very names. Similarly, 'Haryana' also is thousands of years old and its ancient boundaries consisted of present-day Haryana, almost entire Indian Punjab, many districts of present-day Rajasthan and some regions across Yamuna, upto Badayun district.
<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
And Haryanavi language was also known by this very name before 1966. <O:p</O:p
.

[rkumar]

<O:p</O:p
Rather a childish question. No region on this earth comes in existence through political or administrative boundaries. If tomorrow a state in the name of ‘Vidarbha’ or ‘Bundelkhand’ is created, it does not mean it is ‘born’ or ‘came in existence’ on a so-and-so date. These regions exist for thousands of years and are known by these very names. Similarly, 'Haryana' also is thousands of years old and its ancient boundaries consisted of present-day Haryana, almost entire Indian Punjab, many districts of present-day Rajasthan and some regions across Yamuna, upto Badayun district.
<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
And Haryanavi language was also known by this very name before 1966. <O:p</O:p
.

I don't think the question is childish. Region might be historic but not necessarily the language. For the so called Haryanvi to be classified as language it has to fulfil some basic requirements which are;

1. Does it have its own alphabets which are unique ?
2. Does it have have literature written in its own unique alphabets ?

To best of my knowledge neither of above exists. So called Haryanvi at best can be classified only as a dilect of Hindi and thats why its nothing but just a Khadi Bolli.

RK^2

[vikaskajal]

<O:p</O:p
Rather a childish question. No region on this earth comes in existence through political or administrative boundaries. If tomorrow a state in the name of ‘Vidarbha’ or ‘Bundelkhand’ is created, it does not mean it is ‘born’ or ‘came in existence’ on a so-and-so date. These regions exist for thousands of years and are known by these very names. Similarly, 'Haryana' also is thousands of years old and its ancient boundaries consisted of present-day Haryana, almost entire Indian Punjab, many districts of present-day Rajasthan and some regions across Yamuna, upto Badayun district.
<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p
And Haryanavi language was also known by this very name before 1966. <O:p</O:p
.
Haryana was mentioned as early as Mahabharata but having said that ,I haven't seen any old map (British ,mughal or previous era) which describes the boundries as you have described under Haryana.But there are maps which mention old states like Maghda,Punjab. So there is high possibility that the title or name HARAYANA was infact no so popular and common in old times.
I agree that No Region ('Culture' should be more appropiate word) come in to existense through political boundries including ours.But during its evolution it might have been reffered by different names. For eg What we call Camobodian language or culture today was called as Kamboja ,Khmer in past.
And thats all I wanted to ask whether our Boli and culture were called by some other name as well.

[prashantacmet]

THEEK KAHI AAPNE
I don't think the question is childish. Region might be historic but not necessarily the language. For the so called Haryanvi to be classified as language it has to fulfil some basic requirements which are;

1. Does it have its own alphabets which are unique ?
2. Does it have have literature written in its own unique alphabets ?

To best of my knowledge neither of above exists. So called Haryanvi at best can be classified only as a dilect of Hindi and thats why its nothing but just a Khadi Bolli.

RK^2

[spdeshwal]

My belief is that Haryanvi as a dialect or Khadi boli is older than Hindi Language, if we go strictly by the definition of the language. May be it has gone through many faces in maturing a present day distinct dialect.My observation is based on following questions.

Now question is, how old is Hindi language?
What is the oldest literature written in Hindi?
What is oldest literature written using Devnagri Alhphabet?

I believe, we don't have a piece of literature older than 1000 years.

[jitendershooda]

I don't think the question is childish. Region might be historic but not necessarily the language. For the so called Haryanvi to be classified as language it has to fulfil some basic requirements which are;

1. Does it have its own alphabets which are unique ?
2. Does it have have literature written in its own unique alphabets ?

To best of my knowledge neither of above exists. So called Haryanvi at best can be classified only as a dilect of Hindi and thats why its nothing but just a Khadi Bolli.

RK^2

:) Rk ji Ya baat to theek hai aapki ek childish question konya ...

You are right that Haryanvi is not a language ... but this doesnt change the question and its intent by any means, isnt it? And Dialects are more older than languages thats what I feel.

So, What haryanvi Dialect was named as; earlier to 1966. Dont know before 1966 also this region was known as Haryana? And if so or not then was it Haryanvi that time too?

[lrburdak]

See what is on wikipedia about Haryanvi language

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haryanvi

[narenderkharb]

I don't think the question is childish. Region might be historic but not necessarily the language. For the so called Haryanvi to be classified as language it has to fulfil some basic requirements which are;

1. Does it have its own alphabets which are unique ?
2. Does it have have literature written in its own unique alphabets ?

To best of my knowledge neither of above exists. So called Haryanvi at best can be classified only as a dilect of Hindi and thats why its nothing but just a Khadi Bolli.

RK^2

Really childish..

Having unique alphabets is no prequalification to be recorded as a distinct language .

Do Sindhi language recorded as one of the main languages in Indian constitution has some distinct alphabets.

There was no Hindi earlier ,Hindi has been created out of this khari /haryanvi boli via persian influence when ke hal sai ? changed to Kaya hal hai as persians used to put H FOR S .

Also Haryana is recorded as Haryana even in Anangpal times though there was no Punjab UP and Rajsthan in those days.

[narenderkharb]

:) Rk ji Ya baat to theek hai aapki ek childish question konya ...

You are right that Haryanvi is not a language ... but this doesnt change the question and its intent by any means, isnt it? And Dialects are more older than languages thats what I feel.

So, What haryanvi Dialect was named as; earlier to 1966. Dont know before 1966 also this region was known as Haryana? And if so or not then was it Haryanvi that time too?

Though Haryana Desh (modern western UP ,Haryana ,Eastern Punjab and north eastern Rajsthan ) is more than thousand years old ,there was no composite language called Haryanvi as such ,This area was called Desh and its language as Deswali ,however Brij ,Bagari and Punjabi too were other sub languages or dialects spoken in earlier Haryana Desh.

[vijay]

I don't think the question is childish. Region might be historic but not necessarily the language. For the so called Haryanvi to be classified as language it has to fulfil some basic requirements which are;

1. Does it have its own alphabets which are unique ?
2. Does it have have literature written in its own unique alphabets ?

To best of my knowledge neither of above exists. So called Haryanvi at best can be classified only as a dilect of Hindi and thats why its nothing but just a Khadi Bolli.

RK^2

Yes RK sir agree with you :)

I doubts that this so called Haryanvi Language is spoken even in All Haryana itself.

I seriously consider it as just a local dilect of some specific districts of Haryana State ( at present )

[vijay]

So, What haryanvi Dialect was named as; earlier to 1966. Dont know before 1966 also this region was known as Haryana? And if so or not then was it Haryanvi that time too?

Yes, there was no Haryana earlier than 1966. I don't think that Moughals or British could had neglected it if Haryana name existed so long back.

Kurukshetra. Thanesar were so prominent in History but not Haryana.

I suppose Haryanvi word just originated after 1966 and dare to say bhai ..... in a few selective distircts in Haryana State only .... otherwise in north western region of Haryana ...... Ambala, Kaithal, Narwana Sirsa ( people speak Punjabi ) ...... in south west Haryana ( Sirsa, Fatehabad, Hisar, Bhiwani ) people speak bargi ( Rajasthani/dilect of Rajasthan ) ...... while Narnaul, Mahendergarh, Faridbad region speaks typical Rajasthani. Karnal and Yamuna Nagar people use a mixed dialect of Haryanvi and of western UP.

So, Rohtak, Panipat, Sonipat, Jind, Bahadurgarh etc. is the area where this so called Haryanvi Language is used only

[narenderkharb]

Yes, there was no Haryana earlier than 1966.

No Vijay you simply don't know this .

Have you read about Palam Baoli Inscription written at the coronation of Prthiviraj Chouhan ,Haryana is mentioned as such in this inscription.

Have you read the Jinacharya chronicle written in Mahipal tomar times in ninth century AD more than thousand years ago.

They say there is a country on earth called Haryana Desh with its capital Indraprastha (Delhi)whose wealth and beauty is even adored by Lord Indra.

So can always ask brothers when in doubt.:)

Again I will repeat that all languages don't have different scripts it is not a big secret to find out .

You are confusing two terms ,haryanvi as understood today synonymous with Deswali Language and language spoken in earlier Haryana desh that comprises other dialects like Brij ,Khari boli,Bagari and Punjabi,Btw

To your surprise word Punjab was first used in fourteenth century not earlier and for Rajsthan you now very well is post independence .

Haryana was known more than thousand years earlier than people heard names of UP and Rajsthan

[vijay]

No Vijay you simply don't know this .

Have you read about Palam Baoli Inscription written at the coronation of Prthiviraj Chouhan ,Haryana is mentioned as such in this inscription.

Have you read the Jinacharya chronicle written in Mahipal tomar times in ninth century AD more than thousand years ago.

They say there is a country on earth called Haryana Desh with its capital Indraprastha (Delhi)whose wealth and beauty is even adored by Lord Indra.

So can always ask brothers when in doubt.:)


Narender Bhai, it's as simple as that you mention in your post that i just posted what i know at first hand .......... and i am damn sure that what i know about History is like a drop against a Sea ( means ....... your knowledge about History ).


You are confusing two terms ,haryanvi as understood today synonymous with Deswali Language and language spoken in earlier Haryana desh that comprises other dialects like Brij ,Khari boli,Bagari and Punjabi,Btw


I accept that you are always right when we talk about History ...... but my question is that why this vast spoken dilect is just constrainted within a few districts only.


To your surprise word Punjab was first used in fourteenth century not earlier and for Rajsthan you now very well is post independence .


Haryana is so easy to provide a name being a little area ..... how can people name a region having an area almost 30 timer bigger than Haryana ......... even larger than England ...... i hope you know what i mean NOW :)


Haryana was known more than thousand years earlier than people heard names of UP and Rajsthan

I remember Hastinapur, Indraprasth etc. but never heard of about the word Delhi before the British.......

I think it concludes Bhai :)

[fatehsingh]

Yes, there was no Haryana earlier than 1966. I don't think that Moughals or British could had neglected it if Haryana name existed so long back.

Kurukshetra. Thanesar were so prominent in History but not Haryana.

I suppose Haryanvi word just originated after 1966 and dare to say bhai ..... in a few selective distircts in Haryana State only .... otherwise in north western region of Haryana ...... Ambala, Kaithal, Narwana Sirsa ( people speak Punjabi ) ...... in south west Haryana ( Sirsa, Fatehabad, Hisar, Bhiwani ) people speak bargi ( Rajasthani/dilect of Rajasthan ) ...... while Narnaul, Mahendergarh, Faridbad region speaks typical Rajasthani. Karnal and Yamuna Nagar people use a mixed dialect of Haryanvi and of western UP.

So, Rohtak, Panipat, Sonipat, Jind, Bahadurgarh etc. is the area where this so called Haryanvi Language is used only
and that area is known as JAT BELT AND HARYANVI LANGUAGE IS SYNONYMS TO JATS

[fatehsingh]

I remember Hastinapur, Indraprasth etc. but never heard of about the word Delhi before the British.......

I think it concludes Bhai :)

DELHI SULTANATE IS THE WORD WHICH IS USED EVEN BEFORE THE BRITISHERS ARRIVED IN INDIA....AND DONT FORGET THE DELHI GATE IN LAHORE WHICH WAS BUILT MUCH BEFORE THE BRITISHERS CAME TO INDIA AND IT WAS NAMED AS DELHI GATE SINCE ITS CONSTRUCTION DONE...........

[rkumar]

............
Again I will repeat that all languages don't have different scripts it is not a big secret to find out .

..................

Point well taken as far as scripts are concerned. However, I can't think of even single book of any historical significance ever written in so called Hqaryanvi or Deshwali language. We often claim that Vedas, Purans, Geeta etc all were written on the land of Haryana. How come none of these books or any other afterwards find any mention of Haryanvi/ Deshwali ? Any Pandu lipi books ever written in Haryanvi??

RK^2

[jat222in]

I think Haryanvi is not a language. It is a BOLI. The script is same as of HINDI is. "Devnagri". And it is written in devnagri. So there is a difference between language and boli. Further I would like to know more about the topic.




Point well taken as far as scripts are concerned. However, I can't think of even single book of any historical significance ever written in so called Hqaryanvi or Deshwali language. We often claim that Vedas, Purans, Geeta etc all were written on the land of Haryana. How come none of these books or any other afterwards find any mention of Haryanvi/ Deshwali ? Any Pandu lipi books ever written in Haryanvi??

RK^2

[narenderkharb]

Narender Bhai, it's as simple as that you mention in your post that i just posted what i know at first hand .......... and i am damn sure that what i know about History is like a drop against a Sea ( means ....... your knowledge about History ).


Despite of your good knowledge you are humble ,Wait a minute I will ask Devender Kumar to note it ,He just missed this great Jat character in his post about Jats.:)

[vijay]

and that area is known as JAT BELT AND HARYANVI LANGUAGE IS SYNONYMS TO JATS

Bhai, Do you know that this area and the population of this BELT is less than any one of the district of Rajasthan ..... where more than 15 districts are dominated by Jat's ( by population ) .... and they don't speak Haryanvi Language.

Still you want to say that haryanvi Language is Synonym to Jats ? :)

[narenderkharb]

Point well taken as far as scripts are concerned. However, I can't think of even single book of any historical significance ever written in so called Hqaryanvi or Deshwali language. We often claim that Vedas, Purans, Geeta etc all were written on the land of Haryana. How come none of these books or any other afterwards find any mention of Haryanvi/ Deshwali ? Any Pandu lipi books ever written in Haryanvi??

RK^2

RK ji

What you mean by language ???

Same question is put to other members who say Haryanvi is not a language.

If someone says that it is a boli of Hindi than he simply does not know that there was no Hindi just few centuries earlier but languages Brij ,Deswali,Bagari were even than spoken by same people.

Sanskrit was never used as a language of communication than How can it be considered a language ?

Now take case of Script, Devanagari itself came out of Sarda which came out of Gupta than Brahmi etc....etc..This is a continuous process.


Lastly came question of some written material as we know a lot was destroyed in Muslim invasion and later this invasion lead to development of Hindi and Urdu ,but we have still a lot written in Brij ,Marwari and other Languages /dialects of this earlier Haryana Desh .

Finally as per a common Haryanvi villager Dada Lakhmi wrote on virtually every thing that exist in this world .:)

[narenderkharb]

I think Haryanvi is not a language. It is a BOLI. The script is same as of HINDI is. "Devnagri". And it is written in devnagri. So there is a difference between language and boli. Further I would like to know more about the topic.

How can an old language(haryanvi ) be a dialect of new language Hindi.

Top correct it can be said that Hindi is a dialect of Haryanvi that included Brij ,Bagari,Deswali and Khari Boli.

[narenderkharb]

I remember Hastinapur, Indraprasth etc. but never heard of about the word Delhi before the British.......

:)

Pasnahacariu is a Jain book written by muni sridhar.

It is clear from the Pasnahacariu writings that ....

Haryana was the name of country ruled by tomars and its capital was named as dilhi in appox 1050 Ad.

Here is Link...
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/JatHistory /files/dhilli_ tomar.pdf (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/files/dhilli_tomar.pdf)

[lrburdak]

The word Hariana, occurs in a 1328 AD Sanskrit inscription kept in the Delhi Museum, which refers to the Haryana region as The heaven on earth.

[jitendershooda]

RK ji

What you mean by language ???

Same question is put to other members who say Haryanvi is not a language.

If someone says that it is a boli of Hindi than he simply does not know that there was no Hindi just few centuries earlier but languages Brij ,Deswali,Bagari were even than spoken by same people.

Sanskrit was never used as a language of communication than How can it be considered a language ?

Now take case of Script, Devanagari itself came out of Sarda which came out of Gupta than Brahmi etc....etc..This is a continuous process.


Lastly came question of some written material as we know a lot was destroyed in Muslim invasion and later this invasion lead to development of Hindi and Urdu ,but we have still a lot written in Brij ,Marwari and other Languages /dialects of this earlier Haryana Desh .

Finally as per a common Haryanvi villager Dada Lakhmi wrote on virtually every thing that exist in this world .:)

Nice informative reply bhai saab!!!

[jitendershooda]

Pasnahacariu is a Jain book written by muni sridhar.

It is clear from the Pasnahacariu writings that ....

Haryana was the name of country ruled by tomars and its capital was named as dilhi in appox 1050 Ad.

Here is Link...
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/JatHistory /files/dhilli_ tomar.pdf (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/files/dhilli_tomar.pdf)

ha ha ha ... itni purani kitab kite te kadh lyao ho Kharb bhai saab .... Nice info thanks.

[asuhag]

Well personally speaking "Haryanvi" has a influence beyond haryana also.....western UP,Delhi,suprsingly belts of Himachal(infact typical pahari language has an accent remerkably similar to haryanvi)...plus the BHRAJ bhasha also is similar to haryanvi with minor changes,major part being accent......n also that Punjabi also has many things common with HARYANVI!

so the debate sholud be of a GREATER HARYANVI language and we will see influences with rajasthani language also(This one's for my Rajasthani bhai's :) )!

[vijay]

Pasnahacariu is a Jain book written by muni sridhar.

It is clear from the Pasnahacariu writings that ....

Haryana was the name of country ruled by tomars and its capital was named as dilhi in appox 1050 Ad.

Here is Link...
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/JatHistory /files/dhilli_ tomar.pdf (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/files/dhilli_tomar.pdf)

I think this link is for some user group ..... i provided my yahoo id and password and now its asking me about my hotmail password too ...... what's next ?

[vijay]

I think people are drawing the fine line between the states again here ... irrespective of talking about the community as a whole ....... i just mentioned about the population and the dilect they speak only and the wise people are taking that as a statism ...... i am not into it.

Few years back i was studying in KUK as a student of M. Sc. ( Chemistry ) and one of my friend was from Himachal. He used to speak a language which was almost similar to Haryanvi ( except some minor changes in accent ) ..... We may felt nice that OUR dilect is wide spread ...... One day he told me that 'your' Haryanvi dilect seems closer to "our boli' and it seems that your haryanvi boli is influenced from our boli ......... What say ?

Did they adopted 'ours' or we adopted 'theirs' ..... who will decide that ?

[narenderkharb]

The word Hariana, occurs in a 1328 AD Sanskrit inscription kept in the Delhi Museum, which refers to the Haryana region as The heaven on earth.

True Laxman ji ,

I think you are mentioning the sarvala sanskrit inscription in the reign of Muhammad bin Tughalak .

Before that Palam Sanskrit Inscription of 1276 also mention Haryana Desh.

Earlier a Khandit Parsasti in Ajmer Museum mention same Haryana country as Arnoraj captured same Haryana not any other country .

and earliest we find Sridhar book in appox 1050 Ad .Over a period of time this region has again and agin been refered as Desh Haryana

But its capital had recorded refernce even earlier..


Since we know Delhi was not founded by Anangpal in appox Eight century it was repopulated .

Original Delhi was founded King Dellu who ruled somewhere near Alexander times and was the source for famous saying Delhi Dillu Jat ki ...

Founding of Dehli by King Dehlu is well attested by Fariesta in his Book History of Muhammadan conquest of India .

[amiteshv]

True Laxman ji ,

I think you are mentioning the sarvala sanskrit inscription in the reign of Muhammad bin Tughalak .

Before that Palam Sanskrit Inscription of 1276 also mention haryana Desh.

Earlier a Khandit Parsasti in Ajmer Museum mention same Haryana country as Arnoraj captured same Haryana not any other country .

and earliest we find Aridhar in app ox 1050 Ad .

But region existed even before that as Delhi is recorded country of this very own Haryana Desh.


And as we know Delhi was not founded by Anangpal in appox Eight century it was repopulated .

Original Delhi was founded King Dehu who lived in second or third century BC. and was the source for famous saying Delhu Dillu Jat ki ...

Founding of Dehli by King Dehlu is well attested by Fariesta in his Book History of Muhammadan conquest of India .

vo jo dhol dhamake ka role hota hai is sangeet me. vahi is duniyan ke sangeet me haryanvi language ka role hota hai. jitne marzi koi sazz bajjen, per ye jo saaszz hai jat ka, aur ye jo aawaazz hai jatt ki kadde kitti dekhe nne mille.

[amiteshv]

saaszi chaturang chadhi, vir rung me turang chadhi, sarza sivaji jung jeetan chalat hain,

bhushan bhanat naadd brihad nagaran ke nadi nad mad gabran ke rallat hain..:)

[amiteshv]

udde nne kadi koi maharashtra me balhara naam ka jatt hoya karta. arabians attested his presence over there.

[amiteshv]

ye szjass (jats), saastz or aawaazz, unhin logon ki hai. sakas were the most just people upon earth, similar were gutasya putras of ujjaini.. where from passes kark or makar rekha in ujjain..:)

[amiteshv]

gabar here means haathi...:)

[amiteshv]

turang here means ghoda:)

[narenderkharb]

ha ha ha ... itni purani kitab kite te kadh lyao ho Kharb bhai saab .... Nice info thanks.

Thanks Jitender Bhai

Ye to majburi mein tohani padhi ,Appane aadmiyan ne bi na bera Aapne Haryana Desh ke Bare mein.

Or Rk Saheb ne na bera ke pahalm ye bhi Haryanvi thae UP aale konya .

@Rk Bhai Saheb Is Uttar Prdesh tain purana to Yo Sanghi Gaam bhi Sai.:)

Just see...


http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~poyntz/India/images/EasternPunjab&Kashmir.JPG

[amiteshv]

Yes I agree with Narender Bhai. Western UP is eastward migration of Jats/Aryans. Lower western UP is migration from lower Haryana (Faridabad etc) and eastern Rajasthan. Like from Bharatpur district etc. and its languages are also similar to Braj. Upper western UP is from upper Haryana, Rohtak etc. Khadi Boli is also similar to Haryanvi in its hardness and bit rudeness. Exactly speaking Khadiboli of Meerut etc. is mixture of Haryanvi and Braj.

Similarly Multani is mixture of Haryanvi and Punjabi.

In mass migrations where shifting of major populations took place it was always from West to East. Rainfall keeps increasing from west to east becoming maximum in Chirapunji. From about 25cm rainfall in Punjab, 37cm rainfall in western UP, about 60 cm in Central UP, even more in Bihar and North East. Upto western UP Jat migrated in Copper/bronze age. Mahabharta is a story of Jats in Bronze age where no iron is mentioned. After advent of Iron around 2800 years back, Jat was able to clear the thick forests of Central/Eastern UP and Bihar (due to heavy rainfall) for agriculture. Thats why we find sudden rise of Mahjanapadas around 600BC. who due more rain and more surplus food were able to sustain huge armies whom Allexander feared.

There was conflict of Jats with the aboriginal tribes of these regions while clearing forest who did not like the entry and the agriculture change that this Jat was bringing by burning the forests by Mahayagnas. Story of Ramayna is the story of Jats during this period due to the above reasons. We find even great kings like Maharaja Janak practicing agriculture and Sita is born from earth and plough.......

Suddenly we find rise against brahminsm in east by various sects originated by kshatriya kings like Budhism, Jainism. It is due to natural traditional conflict of Jats with brahmins which continues till today. Suddenly Ajatshatru, More (mauryas), Nanda (Nandal) kings are seen in Bihar. As if a vast majority of Haryanvi Jats migrated to Bihar region.

Those Jats still continue in all these lands in form of various Jats/Zats/Jatis/Castes.....