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dskadyan
July 29th, 2009, 08:13 AM
As Lawyer For Human Rights International Filed a case in Punjab and Haryana High Court for abolishing Khap panchayats and verdicts passed by them.

I am here very surprised that people gives more regards to a Judge with written and almost static rules, Even some of them made by British during Raj, and appointed by Government and not to a jury consist of themselves in Khap Panchayats.

Is this because the Govt. Sponsored Judicial system is reinforced with Police Force?
Is it Khap panchayats verdicts are TUGALKI and what a Judge pass is a direction?
Why not a well respected and good khap panchayat, which resolve matter faster than any so CALLED FAST TRACK COURT can do, better than our Judicial system?

I find some advantage of khap panchayat.

1. They are having a jury from common man which have thorough knowledge of issue, both parties and implication of the crime and its verdict. Our Judicial system are only see the instance with the help of written and solid Proofs and that also is the interpretation of the Single so called Meritorious person. He bears no implication of crime and verdict he would pass.

2. The matter is resolved free and speedily. And you know about our judicial system, even most of time you never met with the verdict.

3. As the verdicts are not based on written book they are much more practical.

But than why are they getting so much negative publicity.

1. Our judicial system can’t afford a Khap panchayat as they makes them feels under power in that case. This is honor issue for our judicial system. Our Judges of Judicial system are such a Nobel person that according to them a common man can’t do justice in Khap panchayats.
So not only there is no support from our judicial system they even want to destroy this parallel system.

2. Fast results also make the defending party unhappy in many cases. They knew that they can go in court where the verdict can even take a life time, so why should respect the Khap panchayats verdict. They also know that our judicial system would make the verdict of Khap panchayat VOID in no time.

3. Khap Panchayat is based on social respect and we are less and less interested in that. We only believe in Jail term, monetary problem and social respect and obligation always second to these things.

So we should think about this and should strengthen our Khap panchayat, general panchayat and all type of panchayats which solve our peculiar problem without help from written criminal laws.

narenderkharb
July 29th, 2009, 10:49 PM
As Lawyer For Human Rights International Filed a case in Punjab and Haryana High Court for abolishing Khap panchayats and verdicts passed by them.

I am here very surprised that people gives more regards to a Judge with written and almost static rules, Even some of them made by British during Raj, and appointed by Government and not to a jury consist of themselves in Khap Panchayats.

Is this because the Govt. Sponsored Judicial system is reinforced with Police Force?
Is it Khap panchayats verdicts are TUGALKI and what a Judge pass is a direction?
Why not a well respected and good khap panchayat, which resolve matter faster than any so CALLED FAST TRACK COURT can do, better than our Judicial system?

I find some advantage of khap panchayat.

1. They are having a jury from common man which have thorough knowledge of issue, both parties and implication of the crime and its verdict. Our Judicial system are only see the instance with the help of written and solid Proofs and that also is the interpretation of the Single so called Meritorious person. He bears no implication of crime and verdict he would pass.

2. The matter is resolved free and speedily. And you know about our judicial system, even most of time you never met with the verdict.

3. As the verdicts are not based on written book they are much more practical.

But than why are they getting so much negative publicity.

1. Our judicial system can’t afford a Khap panchayat as they makes them feels under power in that case. This is honor issue for our judicial system. Our Judges of Judicial system are such a Nobel person that according to them a common man can’t do justice in Khap panchayats.
So not only there is no support from our judicial system they even want to destroy this parallel system.

2. Fast results also make the defending party unhappy in many cases. They knew that they can go in court where the verdict can even take a life time, so why should respect the Khap panchayats verdict. They also know that our judicial system would make the verdict of Khap panchayat VOID in no time.

3. Khap Panchayat is based on social respect and we are less and less interested in that. We only believe in Jail term, monetary problem and social respect and obligation always second to these things.

So we should think about this and should strengthen our Khap panchayat, general panchayat and all type of panchayats which solve our peculiar problem without help from written criminal laws.


Nice post .

narenderkharb
July 29th, 2009, 10:57 PM
Can some body tell the name and address of this man who filed this petition against our system .It was some Chopra last time .We can meet him and explain our view point.

anilsangwan
July 29th, 2009, 11:17 PM
On a lighter note........ if Jats plan to meet him, I am sure about the "kind of treatment" this "Mr Chopra" is going to get :rock :rock ..... PGI mein khattoli book karwa lega ebb e......


Can some body tell the name and address of this man who filed this petition against our system .It was some Chopra last time .We can meet him and explain our view point.

RavinderSura
July 30th, 2009, 10:48 AM
खाप पंचायतों के प्रधानों की बैठक 2 को : गोत्र विवाद पर जारी फरमानों से आलोचना के घेरे में आई खापों ने विचार विमर्श के लिए 2 अगस्त को झज्जर की छोटूराम धर्मशाला में खाप पंचायतों के प्रधानों, जाट संगठनों के प्रतिनिधियों व जाट समुदाय से जुडे़ कुछ बुद्धिजीवियों की बैठक बुलाई है। जाट तख्त संघर्ष समिति के राष्ट्रीय महासचिव डॉ. ओमप्रकाश धनखड़ ने बताया कि बैठक में विशेष रूप से गोत्र विवादों पर विचार विमर्श किया जाएगा। बैठक में जाट महासभा के कमांडर हवा सिंह सांगवान, राष्ट्रीय जाट महासंघ के अध्यक्ष भलेराम बेनीवाल, जाट ज्योति के संपादक प्रोफेसर जगदीश गहलोत, जाट रत्**न के संपादक जसबीर मलिक के अलावा धनखड़ झज्जर-360, पालम-360, सोनीपत-360, झाडसा-360, दहिया, अहलावत, दलाल, गुलिया चौबीसी, महम चौबीसी खापों के प्रधान भाग लेंगे।

jitendershooda
July 30th, 2009, 12:50 PM
खाप पंचायतों के प्रधानों की बैठक 2 को : गोत्र विवाद पर जारी फरमानों से आलोचना के घेरे में आई खापों ने विचार विमर्श के लिए 2 अगस्त को झज्जर की छोटूराम धर्मशाला में खाप पंचायतों के प्रधानों, जाट संगठनों के प्रतिनिधियों व जाट समुदाय से जुडे़ कुछ बुद्धिजीवियों की बैठक बुलाई है। जाट तख्त संघर्ष समिति के राष्ट्रीय महासचिव डॉ. ओमप्रकाश धनखड़ ने बताया कि बैठक में विशेष रूप से गोत्र विवादों पर विचार विमर्श किया जाएगा। बैठक में जाट महासभा के कमांडर हवा सिंह सांगवान, राष्ट्रीय जाट महासंघ के अध्यक्ष भलेराम बेनीवाल, जाट ज्योति के संपादक प्रोफेसर जगदीश गहलोत, जाट रत्**न के संपादक जसबीर मलिक के अलावा धनखड़ झज्जर-360, पालम-360, सोनीपत-360, झाडसा-360, दहिया, अहलावत, दलाल, गुलिया चौबीसी, महम चौबीसी खापों के प्रधान भाग लेंगे।

Indeed a good step. These kind of discussions must continue and address most of the issues related to marrying some gotr and reach some conclusion. Missing is perhaps the youth involvement here.

narenderkharb
July 30th, 2009, 03:19 PM
. Missing is perhaps the youth involvement here.

Jitender, Can you and other members give your suggestions ???

I can assure that same will be presented to Khap Panchayat as opinion of the young generation .

It will be nice if some of you can attend the panchayat that day.

jitendershooda
July 30th, 2009, 05:32 PM
Jitender, Can you and other members give your suggestions ???

I can assure that same will be presented to Khap Panchayat as opinion of the young generation .

It will be nice if some of you can attend the panchayat that day.

Narender Ji,

My opinion is as follows:
http://www.jatland.com/forums/showpost.php?p=218501&postcount=74

Also issues raised by Kapil Dalal needs to be addressed. Here I tried my bit in this regard
http://www.jatland.com/forums/showpost.php?p=217940&postcount=26

--------------------------
Killing is not the solution. These are social norms and a person violating must be cut apart socially and not physically. Also we need panchayat's to be held time to time and come up with concrete realisation as to what needs to carry on forward and what needs to be shed off or made optional in terms of these social norms. It is hard to obey all of the rules that we had in past and so society needs timely overhaulling.

I found Politicians talking only for votes and nobody has been come out with strong words. Though I heard Deepender talking of understanding the social norms but we need peacetime efforts to raise such concerns. We can understand that they dont want themselves to be read wrong and loose votes but I think peacetime state sponsored panchayats under legal supervision could have made them hero in society. They should try this.

According to me ... the following should be covered by law either by making JAT act for haryana or so....

Must
1) Cant marry same gotr
2) Cant marry mother's gotr
3) Cant marry in the same village

These should be covered by law for we Jats. Duniya to humari aachi cheejen apna rahi hai ... hum apni aachi rivajon ko hi khone par amada hein. Like one have told that in UK first cousin marriages among muslims have been discouraged due to increase in retardation cases.

Optional
4) Shouldnt marry the other gotr residing in the same village if there is some bhai chara in that village among those gotra's. Like Kapil have said how to make it clear whether bhaichara is there or not .... needs discussion ....

Also if some bhaichara was there and they marry ... then the couple should leave the village and not the parents.

It is going harder and harder to follow these bhaichara things ... e.g. Loharehdi, jhesorkhedi ... have bhaichara with Kharhar ... they cant marry in kharhar but can in other rahtee's .... they cant marry in Deeghal but can marry in other ahlawats .... similarly man, sehwag, deshwal, dalal ....

So social norms should be relaxed to make them more attractive to follow and not too much strong that one start hating them.

Ek taraf to hum bihar se leke aa rahe hein ... doosri taraf hum in bhaicharon mein phanse hue hein ... wa kum te kum jatni to se ...

kapdal
July 30th, 2009, 06:19 PM
It is going harder and harder to follow these bhaichara things ... e.g. Loharehdi, jhesorkhedi ... have bhaichara with Kharhar ... they cant marry in kharhar but can in other rahtee's .... they cant marry in Deeghal but can marry in other ahlawats .... similarly man, sehwag, deshwal, dalal ....

...

Jitu, a clarification- maan, sehwag, deswal and dalal is universal bhaichara. They can't marry anywhere. The logic for that is common ancestry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalal

In the Gahlawat-Kadian case, that is not clear. As apparently, some Kadians of Dharana married their daughters into Gahlawats of other villages. Also, the marriage did seem to have sanction of Gahlawats of Dharana from some newspaper reports (Apparently, when Kadians were marching to the family's house, the neighbourhood (presumably Gahlwats) was throwing stones on them). And then Kadians wanted all Gahlawats out of Dharana, which was irrational. How can bhaichara be practised in selective cases?

Agree with most other things you said. I won't mind JAT Act, but I don't see a strong legal/rational basis for the law. It can still be made and courts won't probably interferre as they didn't when Rajiv Gandhi made a law in Shah Bano case. But I think if 2 individuals exercise a choice that doesn't meet social norms, the society should have full right to exclude them from its midst, but shouldn't have any right over the individuals' lives.

Some logic that has been given at some places about genetics, etc. also needs to be taken in a balanced way. The gotras have become huge in themselves. It is not necessary at all that 2 people of same gotra would have similar genes if there is no direct relationship between them. My child would have a much higher chance (in relative terms, not absolute terms) of having the same genes as desecendant of my paternal/maternal grandmothers or great grandmothers who don't share my gotra than someone from my Gotra with whom I don't share ancestry over 5-6 generations. This is not an argument to support same gotra marriage. But just to clarify that a same gotra marriage is not equivalent to inbreeding that is practised amongst Muslims.

ajit2009
July 30th, 2009, 08:03 PM
Jitu, a clarification- maan, sehwag, deswal and dalal is universal bhaichara. They can't marry anywhere. The logic for that is common ancestry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalal

In the Gahlawat-Kadian case, that is not clear. As apparently, some Kadians of Dharana married their daughters into Gahlawats of other villages. Also, the marriage did seem to have sanction of Gahlawats of Dharana from some newspaper reports (Apparently, when Kadians were marching to the family's house, the neighbourhood (presumably Gahlwats) was throwing stones on them). And then Kadians wanted all Gahlawats out of Dharana, which was irrational. How can bhaichara be practised in selective cases?




I would like to tell something about this issue.
Many of JATLAND member are confused about this issue that what is kadyan-gahlot bhaichara.
Actually there is not in general. The Dharana village is Kadyan’s Village, 90% Jat are of Kadyan gotra and are also the orginal habitat of this place. Like some time due to some issue in relatives we can ask them to settle in our near by region and give them a part to live and earn bread and butter. The gahlot are same way places at DHARANA village. So there are only few of them.There shouldn’t be any issue if Kadyan boy marry a Gahlot gotra as Gahlot are very few. Many of minor gotra are living with this tradition from a long in almost all villages and they don't have objection in these kind situation.

Here the Gahlots made a big move intentionally to prove their might against the kadyans, who are much more in number and are original habitat of the village. This move if approved will make a lot of impact on social system in place at all villages. They are aware of this kind of situation will create a mess but they still done this and now are not even feeling guilty. This would imbalance the social system in place in each and every village.
So I also think that they are at mistake and they should leave the village as panchayat put on for now. As these kinds of verdicts are exemplary punishment and nothing personal here. We also support panchayats and not the Criminals.

kapdal
July 30th, 2009, 08:20 PM
I would like to tell something about this issue.
Many of JATLAND member are confused about this issue that what is kadyan-gahlot bhaichara.
Actually there is not in general. The Dharana village is Kadyan’s Village, 90% Jat are of Kadyan gotra and are also the orginal habitat of this place. Like some time due to some issue in relatives we can ask them to settle in our near by region and give them a part to live and earn bread and butter. The gahlot are same way places at DHARANA village. So there are only few of them.There shouldn’t be any issue if Kadyan boy marry a Gahlot gotra as Gahlot are very few. Many of minor gotra are living with this tradition from a long in almost all villages and they don't have objection in these kind situation.

Here the Gahlots made a big move intentionally to prove their might against the kadyans, who are much more in number and are original habitat of the village. This move if approved will make a lot of impact on social system in place at all villages. They are aware of this kind of situation will create a mess but they still done this and now are not even feeling guilty. This would imbalance the social system in place in each and every village.
So I also think that they are at mistake and they should leave the village as panchayat put on for now. As these kinds of verdicts are exemplary punishment and nothing personal here. We also support panchayats and not the Criminals.

Ajit bhai, thanks for the facts. But if Kadyan boy marrying a gahlot girl is not a problem then why is there a problem in a gahlot boy marrying a kadyan girl? Bhaichara should be both ways, no?

anilsinghd
July 30th, 2009, 08:40 PM
Jitender, Can you and other members give your suggestions ???

I can assure that same will be presented to Khap Panchayat as opinion of the young generation .

It will be nice if some of you can attend the panchayat that day.


I agree with what Jit said , and also with Narendra ji that youth should be involved in this.

I guess making things simpler should help and also there should not be confusions around things.

Things are changing and so we should adapt , just to take my own example , I knew nothing of the gotras that I needed to avoid and even my father had some vague ideas , being Dalal myself as Kapil said , deshwal , maan etc were obvious but there were similar issues of Bhaichara in the village and all.

My Tau ji clarified for us that since we live outside village we do not need to follow the same etc , So there are no absolute norms , making things concrete would help i believe.

Also if at all we reach at conclusions about the norms , it would be a good idea to make sure that is promoted and popularised or should I say be toldd to all. It is one thing that few know it , its important that everybody knows it. :)


=========

On the topic , one very obvious "for" for the Judicial system ( ofcourse I am being idealistic) is that it is not biased and it does not base things on emotions! :)

ajit2009
July 30th, 2009, 09:56 PM
My Tau ji clarified for us that since we live outside village we do not need to follow the same etc , So there are no absolute norms , making things concrete would help i believe.

Also if at all we reach at conclusions about the norms , it would be a good idea to make sure that is promoted and popularised or should I say be toldd to all. It is one thing that few know it , its important that everybody knows it. :)


=========

On the topic , one very obvious "for" for the Judicial system ( ofcourse I am being idealistic) is that it is not biased and it does not base things on emotions! :)[/QUOTE]


in my thinking,i want to tell u that in our society , there are three type of cast : 1 poor
2 middle
3 rich
two casts are great and no barrier for them , they are : poor & rich .
there is an example also : किसे ने ठीक कहा है कि यदि गरीब कि छोरी किते चली जा तो ......कह्वेंगे .....बिहा दी ,..............
यदि मिड्डल कि किते चली जा ते ,..कह्वेंगे ...... भाज गी .............................
यदि आमिर कि चली जा तो .......कह्वेंगे...........पिकनिक मनाने गई

..........भाई या कद्दे ते ही होंदी आयी है ......और ऐसे ही चलेगी ...........
भाई समाज तो ....समाज है मानने वाला मध्य वर्ग है ............ न मानने वाले ठाठी वर्ग ?
बाकि असली जब बेरा पट्टे है .... जब समाज में रहवे है ..पंचायत में बोले है ?
क्या है गवर्मेंट ?
पंचायत को भगवान के सामान बताया गया है अगर समाज में रह कर मांनते तो .........बाकि सब सयाने मानस होरे है भाई हम तो चार भाई लोग कि राय अछि मानते है बजाये गवर्नमेंट के .

But middle socity is very like a narrow street, in this cast every one have their hard rule and regulation . if anyone will try to ignore them ,then he will be punished by this middle society, and every one will obey all oe these rules nor he will be throw out from society ,and this will last and final.

dskadyan
July 30th, 2009, 11:37 PM
Ajit bhai, thanks for the facts. But if Kadyan boy marrying a gahlot girl is not a problem then why is there a problem in a gahlot boy marrying a kadyan girl? Bhaichara should be both ways, no?

Bhaisahab kyonki yahan par mathematical theory nahi chalti ki a = 2 and b= 2 so a=b.

Agar mein kah deta huu ke chhore ke byah mein, chhora barat le kar jata hai ladki ke yahan aur shadi kar ke lata hai. Tum puchoge "Kya ladki ki bhi shadi hoyee ke?", i will tell haan, toh kya tum yeh puchoge ki ladki bhi barat le kar aa saktee hai pher toh?".

Toh tu hi bata de kya yeh possible hai???

Bhai wahan Gahlot and Kadyan ka Bhaichara nahi hai balki Kadyan wahan ke Vasi (village haitant) hai. so Kadyan ki ladki wahan par thousands ki Beti ho jatee hai. Woh Chora gaam ala ka jamai ban ja hai.

Aur mhare gamma main sath khele hode ne jamai koye na banawata. aur agar tumko yeh bhi nahi pata ki kyon toh bhai 2-4 mahine gaam mein la kar ana pata chal jayega kyon.


LEKIN YAHAN MAIN ISSUE IS "IS IT NOT A GOOD WAY OF SORTING OUT SOCIAL ISSUE IN PANCHAYAT AND WE SHOULD RESPECT THAT"? SHADI AND GOTRA IS ONE OF THEM BUT NOT ALL. AND I AM NOT AWARE ANY KILLING VERDICT BY A KHAP PANCHAYAT. IF YES THAN GIVE SITING. KILLING OF VEDPAL NEAR JIND IS NOT VERDICT OF ANY KHAP PANCHAYAT(JUST FOR SAKE OF CLARIFICATION).

kapdal
July 31st, 2009, 12:06 AM
Agar mein kah deta huu ke chhore ke byah mein, chhora barat le kar jata hai ladki ke yahan aur shadi kar ke lata hai. Tum puchoge "Kya ladki ki bhi shadi hoyee ke?", i will tell haan, toh kya tum yeh puchoge ki ladki bhi barat le kar aa saktee hai pher toh?".

Toh tu hi bata de kya yeh possible hai???


Na, yeh possible na hai. Aise baawle sawaal tu hi boojh le. Bhai tu us baat se is baat pe kaise jump maar gaya, meri samajh mein to nahin aaya.

Jahaan tak bhaichaare waali baat hai, yahaan bahut log poochh chuke hain. Theek hai bhai, tu kadyan hai, to tujhe strongly aisa lagta hoga ki kadyanon ki baat theek hai. Par aisa koi consensus nahin hai ki sirf gahlawat ko kadyan ka bhaichara nibhana chaaiye, and not the other way round.

Aur aapke hisaab se "so Kadyan ki ladki wahan par thousands ki Beti ho jatee hai. Woh Chora gaam ala ka jamai ban ja hai. Aur mhare gamma main sath khele hode ne jamai koye na banawata." Kuchh sau ek gahlawat bhi honge same gaon mein. Toh un sau ek ka kya neg banega jab gahlawat chhori gaon mein bahu ban ke aayegi- bahu ka ki beti ka? Ya fir unka gaon mein same hak hi na hai kyunki gaon kadyan ka hai?

BadgujarSampat
July 31st, 2009, 12:08 AM
Kya SIKH theek the KHALISTAN banate waqt!

Eeb to chaploos CM banenge aur hizde MP...jinki lugai chod ke bhaj ja aur usne pher li aave gharan...

Refugee Rajya sabha main...

Sarpanch Jail main.

Chore bebe byah byah lavenge aur gham dekhta reh ja ga

DEMAND FOR SEPARATE NATION : JATLAND

itsme
July 31st, 2009, 03:52 AM
pagal log...aree bhai chaara badhaana hai to kuch ache kaam karo..kisi ne shaadi kar li chahee koi b ho ....kya woh insaan nahi hai....duniyaa pata nahi kahan pahunch gayi yeh wehin ke wehin hai ...aur kuch padhe likhe insaan(So called) yahan faltoo main doosron ka time kharab karein hai....:mad::mad: aree kimmee karna hai to un bewkoof logon ko kaho ki maarna is not a solution...n waise b khaap wale hote kaun hai jo kisi ko b maar denge ,...un educated illetrate people.... n their dumb supporters....sh**T



Bhaisahab kyonki yahan par mathematical theory nahi chalti ki a = 2 and b= 2 so a=b.

Agar mein kah deta huu ke chhore ke byah mein, chhora barat le kar jata hai ladki ke yahan aur shadi kar ke lata hai. Tum puchoge "Kya ladki ki bhi shadi hoyee ke?", i will tell haan, toh kya tum yeh puchoge ki ladki bhi barat le kar aa saktee hai pher toh?".

Toh tu hi bata de kya yeh possible hai???

Bhai wahan Gahlot and Kadyan ka Bhaichara nahi hai balki Kadyan wahan ke Vasi (village haitant) hai. so Kadyan ki ladki wahan par thousands ki Beti ho jatee hai. Woh Chora gaam ala ka jamai ban ja hai.

Aur mhare gamma main sath khele hode ne jamai koye na banawata. aur agar tumko yeh bhi nahi pata ki kyon toh bhai 2-4 mahine gaam mein la kar ana pata chal jayega kyon.


LEKIN YAHAN MAIN ISSUE IS "IS IT NOT A GOOD WAY OF SORTING OUT SOCIAL ISSUE IN PANCHAYAT AND WE SHOULD RESPECT THAT"? SHADI AND GOTRA IS ONE OF THEM BUT NOT ALL. AND I AM NOT AWARE ANY KILLING VERDICT BY A KHAP PANCHAYAT. IF YES THAN GIVE SITING. KILLING OF VEDPAL NEAR JIND IS NOT VERDICT OF ANY KHAP PANCHAYAT(JUST FOR SAKE OF CLARIFICATION).

sidchhikara
July 31st, 2009, 04:36 AM
pagal log...aree bhai chaara badhaana hai to kuch ache kaam karo..kisi ne shaadi kar li chahee koi b ho ....kya woh insaan nahi hai....duniyaa pata nahi kahan pahunch gayi yeh wehin ke wehin hai ...aur kuch padhe likhe insaan(So called) yahan faltoo main doosron ka time kharab karein hai....:mad::mad: aree kimmee karna hai to un bewkoof logon ko kaho ki maarna is not a solution...n waise b khaap wale hote kaun hai jo kisi ko b maar denge ,...un educated illetrate people.... n their dumb supporters....sh**T

I Agree ..........

spdeshwal
July 31st, 2009, 07:07 AM
[QUOTE=dskadyan;218947]Bhaisahab kyonki yahan par mathematical theory nahi chalti ki a = 2 and b= 2 so a=b.


Devender bhai

Mathematcal theory hi chalti hai:

a=2 and B=2 ho tab theek hai arr kisi bhi controversy ke chance kum hi hote hein
Problem tab aati hai jab A=25 and B=2
and B start demanding equal rights

The current controversy and the similar incidents in the past are result of a kind of frustration these minority gotra people go through for years.
Someone from the minority group decides to fight for the equal rights.
This kind of action is the result of some irrational reaction of the frustrated mindset. Ye deewar mein dhoon mar ke sarkaane ki koshish jaisa hai

If we see democratically, then even the minority people have the same right.
For that, a big social shake up would be needed. I mean changing the mindset that "saare gaam ka Bateu Ban jyaga".
But it doesn't seem to be possible in the near future.
Aaj ke haalat mein yahi faisla achha hai ki , " The couple leave the village and the parents shouldn't be punished"

While going through this discussion, I was wandering, why this kind of controversies erupt in the district surrounded by Rohtak. I mean Jhajhar, Sonepat, panipat, Jind and Bhiwani
I haven't heard of these kind of controversies in UP and Rajasthan or may be I may not be aware of this.
What norms are followed by Jats in these states?

mann123
July 31st, 2009, 07:24 AM
Bhai norms to humare jaise hi hain but media coverage kam hain. UP main to I have seen 3 brothers were having 1 wife unka pata na khosda kyu na baajya eb tae.


[QUOTE=dskadyan;218947]Bhaisahab kyonki I haven't heard of these kind of controversies in UP and Rajasthan or may be I may not be aware of this.
What norms are followed by Jats in these states?

mann123
July 31st, 2009, 07:49 AM
Is this a really a problem of gotra's? I doubt as Jats have more than 350 गोत्र हैं उनमे ते ५-७ छोड़ दिए तो कुन सा साका होगया...बड़े बुद्दे कहते ई से ७ घर तो daayan भी छोडे से ..हाम के ७ गोत न छोड़ सकते ...
एक और बात मैं समझता हूँ के पंचायत का काम सामाजिक विरोध से होना चाहिए न की जान लेने के.. और भाई कहती हाना भी शर्म आ से येः पंच्याती रेअक्टिव हैं प्रोअक्टिवे न से...यह सुसरे जीब कित जा से जब एक पान्ने के छोहरे दुसरी पान्ने की छोहरिया पे लाइन मारे से... उनने कोई दिक्कत न होती..
भाइयो क्यों सारी कुहहो से मेरे पे अक गाम मैं आज के हो से बाकी ब्याह होए पाछे उन ने पानी सेर ते उपार धिखे से वैसे असामाजिक रिश्ता हैं तो कोए प्रॉब्लम न से

dskadyan
July 31st, 2009, 08:49 AM
Aur aapke hisaab se "so Kadyan ki ladki wahan par thousands ki Beti ho jatee hai. Woh Chora gaam ala ka jamai ban ja hai. Aur mhare gamma main sath khele hode ne jamai koye na banawata." Kuchh sau ek gahlawat bhi honge same gaon mein. Toh un sau ek ka kya neg banega jab gahlawat chhori gaon mein bahu ban ke aayegi- bahu ka ki beti ka? Ya fir unka gaon mein same hak hi na hai kyunki gaon kadyan ka hai?
Bhai Wahan Kuch sau nahi hai gahlot. Thats why its not other way round. This is what i am telling you. Aur 1-2 parivar wale, ek gaon mein 10-20 gotra ho jate hai.

dskadyan
July 31st, 2009, 09:16 AM
[

Aur aapke hisaab se "so Kadyan ki ladki wahan par thousands ki Beti ho jatee hai. Woh Chora gaam ala ka jamai ban ja hai. Aur mhare gamma main sath khele hode ne jamai koye na banawata." Kuchh sau ek gahlawat bhi honge same gaon mein. Toh un sau ek ka kya neg banega jab gahlawat chhori gaon mein bahu ban ke aayegi- bahu ka ki beti ka? Ya fir unka gaon mein same hak hi na hai kyunki gaon kadyan ka hai?[/QUOTE]



भाई इस बात का जवाब मेरे धोरे है : मजोरिटी ............जिसकी मजोरिटी होगी उसकी वलुए है ........उस जगह .
उदाहरण के लिए : अगर मान्दोठी में पांच घर गहलावत के है तो वो दलाल की लड़की ब्याह के ला सकते है ?


अगर जवाब मिले तो भेजना .......... मान्दोठी, दलाल खप ताहि पहुंचा दूंगा ...
और हाम तो असली गलती लड़की वाले की मानते है .....उसे पत्ता होते हुए वो ऐसा करता है ........वो सबसे नीच है .फेर तो अपने घर ही सदी कर दे बहार जाने की जरूरत क्या है , .........हम तो कट्टर जाट खाप का समर्थन करते है , इस सिलसिले में सख्ती से पैस आना चाहिए खाप को ,और ऐसी सजा देनी चाहिए की आगे कोई भाईचारे को बिगाड़ने की कोसिस न करे .

mann123
July 31st, 2009, 11:51 AM
Bhai Saab

Waa saja kisisk se honee chaiye?? Matlab phaasee ...jahar de ke marana...ak aur kimme?


[हम तो कट्टर जाट खाप का समर्थन करते है , इस सिलसिले में सख्ती से पैस आना चाहिए खाप को ,और ऐसी सजा देनी चाहिए की आगे कोई भाईचारे को बिगाड़ने की कोसिस न करे .

jitendershooda
July 31st, 2009, 12:28 PM
Jitu, a clarification- maan, sehwag, deswal and dalal is universal bhaichara. They can't marry anywhere. The logic for that is common ancestry.

Some logic that has been given at some places about genetics, etc. also needs to be taken in a balanced way. The gotras have become huge in themselves. It is not necessary at all that 2 people of same gotra would have similar genes if there is no direct relationship between them. My child would have a much higher chance (in relative terms, not absolute terms) of having the same genes as desecendant of my paternal/maternal grandmothers or great grandmothers who don't share my gotra than someone from my Gotra with whom I don't share ancestry over 5-6 generations. This is not an argument to support same gotra marriage. But just to clarify that a same gotra marriage is not equivalent to inbreeding that is practised amongst Muslims.

Very well said.

Regarding the bhaichara thing I was putting more complex situations that may arise. Some with universal bhaichara might have bhaichara with specific villages too.

Also when in a village one gotr can marry in other gotr residing in the same village? Majority/minority doesnt seems good to me ... it must be related to ancestory like when Gahlawat's were aulad of a kadian girl of dharana etc. In this case Kadian's can marry in gahlawats of other village as one can marry in the same gotr (not the same village) in which his sister is married (correct me if I am wrong). But Gahlawat's shouldnt marry as Kadian's are their Mama looking at the roots of that village.

Now complexity is in yours question in earlier post .... that what will be the criteria of the population to consider a village or kasba and relax rules like kahnaur, kalanaur etc. Means when can one marry within same kasba or village(big village with several outsider gotr etc)?
Iss area mein bahut sare log bahar se akar base hue hein refugee's ki jameene leke like patwapur there are gulia, kundu and other outsider gotras so what should be left and what shouldnt?

kapdal
July 31st, 2009, 03:17 PM
[

भाई इस बात का जवाब मेरे धोरे है : मजोरिटी ............जिसकी मजोरिटी होगी उसकी वलुए है ........उस जगह .
उदाहरण के लिए : अगर मान्दोठी में पांच घर गहलावत के है तो वो दलाल की लड़की ब्याह के ला सकते है ?


अगर जवाब मिले तो भेजना .......... मान्दोठी, दलाल खप ताहि पहुंचा दूंगा ...
और हाम तो असली गलती लड़की वाले की मानते है .....उसे पत्ता होते हुए वो ऐसा करता है ........वो सबसे नीच है .फेर तो अपने घर ही सदी कर दे बहार जाने की जरूरत क्या है , .........हम तो कट्टर जाट खाप का समर्थन करते है , इस सिलसिले में सख्ती से पैस आना चाहिए खाप को ,और ऐसी सजा देनी चाहिए की आगे कोई भाईचारे को बिगाड़ने की कोसिस न करे .

Agar dalal aur gahlawat us gaon mein bhaichara maante hain to gahlwaton ko dalal ki ladki byah ke nahin laani chaahiye. Aur dalalon ko bhi gahlawaton ki ladki byah ke nahin laani chaahiye. Tu to jiski laathi uski bhains waali baat karr raha hai. Na ki bhaichaare waali...

I can think of a million situations where "majority is right" can lead to horrifying consequences. I'd be surprised if Khap Panchayats have the same stand. It doesn't even have the pretense of a moral ground!

ajit2009
July 31st, 2009, 04:43 PM
Agar dalal aur gahlawat us gaon mein bhaichara maante hain to gahlwaton ko dalal ki ladki byah ke nahin laani chaahiye. Aur dalalon ko bhi gahlawaton ki ladki byah ke nahin laani chaahiye. Tu to jiski laathi uski bhains waali baat karr raha hai. Na ki bhaichaare waali...

I can think of a million situations where "majority is right" can lead to horrifying consequences. I'd be surprised if Khap Panchayats have the same stand. It doesn't even have the pretense of a moral ground!


:rockbhai bhains aur manasa me bahut farak hai fer lathi ka jikar chod .isne tale dhar le ,kade gam me ana pade to kisi budhe dhore baith ke batlaiye .........khani akele vicharo se nahi ...kuch mahsoos karne se hoti hai

kapdal
July 31st, 2009, 04:56 PM
:rockbhai bhains aur manasa me bahut farak hai fer lathi ka jikar chod .isne tale dhar le ,kade gam me ana pade to kisi budhe dhore baith ke batlaiye .........khani akele vicharo se nahi ...kuch mahsoos karne se hoti hai

Bhai main apne vichaar de raha hoon na ki boodhe ke. Haan gaam jaake nyun bera jaroor paat ja se ki sirf isse isse maamlon mein boodhe ki suni ja se.

raka
July 31st, 2009, 05:10 PM
Ajit bhai, thanks for the facts. But if Kadyan boy marrying a gahlot girl is not a problem then why is there a problem in a gahlot boy marrying a kadyan girl? Bhaichara should be both ways, no?
bhai kapil gaon ka kheda dekhya ja s ak kunse gottar ka s aur us gaon me basne wale dusre gottar walo ko us khede ko basane walo ke saath baichara rakhna pade s. rahi baat kasbe ki to bhai lal dore me basne wale gottar me sab isi riwaaj ne maane s .

kapdal
July 31st, 2009, 05:22 PM
bhai kapil gaon ka kheda dekhya ja s ak kunse gottar ka s aur us gaon me basne wale dusre gottar walo ko us khede ko basane walo ke saath baichara rakhna pade s. rahi baat kasbe ki to bhai lal dore me basne wale gottar me sab isi riwaaj ne maane s .

Hmmm...thanks for the info..

anilsinghd
July 31st, 2009, 05:22 PM
LEKIN YAHAN MAIN ISSUE IS "IS IT NOT A GOOD WAY OF SORTING OUT SOCIAL ISSUE IN PANCHAYAT AND WE SHOULD RESPECT THAT"? SHADI AND GOTRA IS ONE OF THEM BUT NOT ALL.


Devender I agree with you that we should focus on the main issue.

Frankly I have nothing against the panchayats if they act rationally over things and can keep the emotions away from this.

I guess we can divide any issue in two separate buckets based on time.
Once before it can happen , one aft er it has happened.

And the reaction function of the decision etc are / should be totally diff erent in both cases.


main panchayaton ki baat se sehmat hun ki in samaj ke niyamon ko follow karna chahiye lekin yeh sab tab hai jab woh issue hua nahi hai , uske liye panchayat kya kar rahi hai ? Kya koi programs , workshops , information flow ki jaa rahi hai aaj ke youth mein ki kya sahi hai kya galat hai ?
Aise progressive kadam liye jaane chahiye jinse sabhi ke paas cheejon ki knowledge ho. Bhai i guess you will agr ee that prevention is better than cure. :)

jahan tak baat issue hone ke baad ki hai , i dont think ki kadi saja dena , gaon nikala dena poori family ko , monteary jurmana etc are any solutions.
yahin JL pe hi ek thread mein padha tha ki ZEE news pe interview diya us chhori ne to kaha ki 21k rapiye le ke panchayat use beti se bahu maan legi ? bhai baat bahut sahi kahi hai us ladki ne , agar shaanti se sochi jaye to ... :)

kapdal
July 31st, 2009, 05:35 PM
Bhai i guess you will agr ee that prevention is better than cure. :)



Yes, very good point! Problem isi baat se hai ki saara kaam ho jaane pe kuchh log apna hanga dikhana chaahte hain. Maine pehle waale thread pe bhi poochha tha ki kisi ko to khabar rahi hogi shaadi se pehle, is case mein to bhaja ke nahin laaye the...proper shaadi hui thi. Tab panchayat ne khilafat ki thi ki nahin? Ab rolla karne se kya faayda hoga- ab to shaadi ho gayi. Aisa bhi nahin hai ki example set kiya ja raha hai. Har 2-4 mahine mein ek naya maamla aa jaata hai. Kisi case mein jabran rakhi bandhwaayi jaati hai, kisi case main murder karr diya jaata hai. Kuchh logon ki zindagi barbaad hoti hai aur mudda to wahi rehta hai. Aisa to hua nahin ki yeh sab karne se case band ho gaye.

Ambijat
July 31st, 2009, 05:52 PM
The khap system has been one of the most oppressive instruments. Had they have larger merit then why other civil and violent disputes not being taken up.
I doubt the lack of civil society concerns in the khap norms have been questioned by any khap members. No system how so ever ancient and particular can supersede the bindings from the Constitution of India.

anilsinghd
July 31st, 2009, 06:13 PM
Tab panchayat ne khilafat ki thi ki nahin? Ab rolla karne se kya faayda hoga- ab to shaadi ho gayi.


Well Kapil , I do not blame Panchayats a lot for this , i am only of the opinion that they must be progressive going forward and do better.

basically all of this is a falluout of a general phenomenon of CYA( you will know the term :D ). We all follow the same policy , quick fixes are the order of time , reactionary approaches are rampant , no body is looking for the longer term , there ain't any vision and planning and when there is not any , conflicts are bound to occur ! :)

dskadyan
July 31st, 2009, 10:42 PM
hmm discussion is taking different turn now. we are proving ourselves.

dskadyan
July 31st, 2009, 10:43 PM
The khap system has been one of the most oppressive instruments. Had they have larger merit then why other civil and violent disputes not being taken up.
I doubt the lack of civil society concerns in the khap norms have been questioned by any khap members. No system how so ever ancient and particular can supersede the bindings from the Constitution of India.

Dear Sir,
Who says panchayats can’t solve the civil and violent disputes. But all the verdicts are based on Social Respect. Would you respect a verdict given by judge if there is no Police Force there? I doubt.

And all says that khap panchayat kills, part husband and wife and many other ruthless verdict.


Adalat(court) mein laddoo/jalebi milti hai kya? Whan criminals ko salute dete hai 25 rifles ki? Ya sab bakwas hai. Court mein jakar kon sa case 1 mahine mein sulat gaya hai? batao.
And what about constitution here?
can you interpret that 5 Kg book to me. If there is all written well and thorough why so many of state issue, water issue and insolvency of these things!!
Bhai Constitution ko side mein hi rahne do toh theek hai. Thats true oppressive book if you say the panchyats oppressive. But in actually book is right but executioner are using to make us believe they have power and only they can do the real work of social harmony. do you know Raj Dand? That was a stick ,Raja used to show to people and all people believe that the person having that have super natural power to rule them.Ajj mein raj dand dikaha ke raja ban sakta hu kya? Log usi dande se lamba kar denge maine.

Ab woh Raj dand ki jagah Constitution hai. The CM/PM and all XXXcrats use this as Raj dand. Constitution, State, Government all are institute for exploitation, panchayats are not. Think it for 5 minutes. Then you will realize the fact.
These systems are made to rule by few very few clever and powerful one to rule on all other.

spdeshwal
August 1st, 2009, 06:54 AM
इस तरह की कलह की पीछे बहुत हद तक हमारी सामजिक कुरीतियाँ भी हैं
एक बहुत बड़ा कारण, पर्दा सिस्टम भी है !
किसी ग्रामीण परिवेश में, पर्दे में सभी बहुएँ हैं, परदे के बिना सब बहने हैं

मेरी जानकारी के मताबिक कुछ महिलायें, शादी के बाद अपने पैत्रिक गाँव में अपने पति के साथ रहने लगी और उस पर कभी कोई विवाद नहीं हुआ ! एकाध केस में हकीकी लोग नाराज जरूर हुए लेकिन कुछ समय के लिए !

मेरा एक सुझाव है , क्यों ने उस कादियान लड़की को निर्देश दे दिया जाये की वो ढराना गाँव में पर्दा न करे !
मेरा द्रिड विश्वाश है की इस विवाह के प्रति पूरे गाँव का नजरिया ही बदल जाएगा ! म्रेरे विचार से इस सारी समस्या को सुलझाने के लिए हमारे माननीय पंचों को थोड़ा लचीला व् व्यवहारिक नजरिया अपनाना बहुत जरूरी है !

सभी के विचारों का सम्मान करें और खुश रहें !

lrburdak
August 1st, 2009, 09:31 AM
Deswalji

It is a good suggestion. We have to have some flexibility on both sides looking to the present conditions keeping traditions alive. There is no fault with the traditional khap panchayat system. I will request to read more about the khaps , sarvakhaps and sarv khap panchayats on Jatland Wiki.

http://www.jatland.com/home/Khap

Regards,

Ambijat
August 2nd, 2009, 11:12 PM
Dear Sir,
Who says panchayats can’t solve the civil and violent disputes. But all the verdicts are based on Social Respect. Would you respect a verdict given by judge if there is no Police Force there? I doubt.

And all says that khap panchayat kills, part husband and wife and many other ruthless verdict.


Adalat(court) mein laddoo/jalebi milti hai kya? Whan criminals ko salute dete hai 25 rifles ki? Ya sab bakwas hai. Court mein jakar kon sa case 1 mahine mein sulat gaya hai? batao.
And what about constitution here?
can you interpret that 5 Kg book to me. If there is all written well and thorough why so many of state issue, water issue and insolvency of these things!!
Bhai Constitution ko side mein hi rahne do toh theek hai. Thats true oppressive book if you say the panchyats oppressive. But in actually book is right but executioner are using to make us believe they have power and only they can do the real work of social harmony. do you know Raj Dand? That was a stick ,Raja used to show to people and all people believe that the person having that have super natural power to rule them.Ajj mein raj dand dikaha ke raja ban sakta hu kya? Log usi dande se lamba kar denge maine.

Ab woh Raj dand ki jagah Constitution hai. The CM/PM and all XXXcrats use this as Raj dand. Constitution, State, Government all are institute for exploitation, panchayats are not. Think it for 5 minutes. Then you will realize the fact.
These systems are made to rule by few very few clever and powerful one to rule on all other.

अब चूँकि बात के मायने अनेक रूप में प्रस्तुत किये जा रहे हैं, इसलिए संक्षेप में कुछ विचार रखना चाहूँगा पहला तो ये कि अच्छा होता यदि यहाँ अभिप्राय लोक निर्वाचित पंचायत से होता, क्योंकि जिन खूबियों के लिए पंचायत की हिमायत की जा रही है, वे खाँप पंचायतों से कुछ अधिक की अपेक्षा है । एक शब्द Social Respect बङा ही महत्वपूर्ण है । यह Social Respect क्या है, इसके क्या स्वरूप हैं । यही सब पंचायत की सबसे बङी व्याख्या है । किस प्रकार से खाँप से नेतृत्व का चुनाव किया जाता है कि अमुक व्यक्ति का Social Respect औरों की तुलना में अधिक है । जाहिर है, संसाधनों की बहुत बङी भूमिका इन सबमें होती है । इसलिए जिसे Social Respect समझा जा रहा है, वह दरअसल Social Stratification है । सवाल यह है कि क्यों एक नौजवान उस व्यवस्था का हिमायती हो जाता है जो कि उसके संसाधन व हैसियत आदि के बूते से बाहर है । यह एक आधुनिकतावाद का चरम प्रश्न है । दौङ में पिछङने पर होने वाला Identity crisis व उससे पनपने वाला Social alienation आज का नौजवान झेलने से डरता है, इसिलिए इस Forum पर मैं देख रहा हूँ कि एक प्रकार का नव संकीर्णतावाद (neo conservatism) देखने को मिल रहा है । मेरा भय सिर्फ इतना ही है चूँकि जाट यूवा भारत स्तर पर जो सामाजिक परिवर्तन को अनदेखा कर रहे हैं । एक वर्ग विशेष ऐसे ही अवसर की तलाश कर रहा है जो कि Identity politics में उनका प्रयोग कर सकता है ।
कादियाँ जी जब Constitution की धज्जियाँ उङाते हैं तो मुझे इसी खतरे का आभास होता है ।
धन्यवाद ।

Ambijat
August 4th, 2009, 07:22 PM
deswalji

it is a good suggestion. We have to have some flexibility on both sides looking to the present conditions keeping traditions alive. There is no fault with the traditional khap panchayat system. I will request to read more about the khaps , sarvakhaps and sarv khap panchayats on jatland wiki.

http://www.jatland.com/home/khap

regards,

लक्षमण जी एक जानकारी चाहूँगा, कि क्या कारण है कि खापों का विकास पश्चिमी राजस्थान में नहीं हो पाया । नागौर, सीकर, अजमेर, टोंक, बाङमेर, जोधपुर व जयपुर में खाँप व्यवस्था नहीं पाई जाती है । दूसरा यह कि आगरा व आसपास के इलाकों सभी जाट गोत्र इस खाँप व्यवस्था से नहीं जुङे हुए हैं । यह कुछ महत्वपूर्ण प्रश्न हैं, जो कि खाँप व्यवस्था को समझने में मदद देंगे ।
धन्यवाद ।

drssrana2003
August 9th, 2009, 12:13 AM
Mr. Kadyan,
Thanks for pointing out the advantages and need for accepting the role of Panchaysts in dispensing justice. It is a pity that our leaders have completely fallen prey to a mind set which finds all that is traditional as irrelevant. Even the Mughals had recognised the role of Panchayats at least in civil matters. The British based their legislation for governance in India on the Smriti law and tradition. Platitude lauding the Panchayati Raj should be replaced by some bold action in handing over to the Panchayats what our Judiciary and execitive has failed to resolve. One can then hope for real suraaj.
s.s.rana

lrburdak
August 13th, 2009, 07:38 PM
लक्षमण जी एक जानकारी चाहूँगा, कि क्या कारण है कि खापों का विकास पश्चिमी राजस्थान में नहीं हो पाया । नागौर, सीकर, अजमेर, टोंक, बाङमेर, जोधपुर व जयपुर में खाँप व्यवस्था नहीं पाई जाती है । दूसरा यह कि आगरा व आसपास के इलाकों सभी जाट गोत्र इस खाँप व्यवस्था से नहीं जुङे हुए हैं । यह कुछ महत्वपूर्ण प्रश्न हैं, जो कि खाँप व्यवस्था को समझने में मदद देंगे ।
धन्यवाद ।

Ambrishji,

Khap sustem was there in Rajasthan prior to the rule of Rajputs but it was completely destroyed over a period of 500 years. Not only the system of organization of Jats was destroyed during this period but Jats were left with no resources. It was only a few years prioir to the independence that there was awakening through the Jat Mahasabhas.

MayankKp
August 17th, 2009, 01:44 AM
My grandfather recently wrote an article on Khap Panchayat which was published in Tribune Newspaper. Excerpt:



A Tribune Special
Why are political parties silent on khaps?
These so-called panchayats must be banned, says D.R. Chaudhry



IN its lead editorial in The Tribune (July 25), a question is posed in all anguish: “Who rules Haryana?: The law or the khaps?” The answer is resounding: “the khaps”. From meddling into marital affairs to ostracising a family and lynching a young man for violating khap norms of marriage, the institution of khap panchayat in Haryana has traversed its hideous journey from the grotesque to the macabre.


The two marriages in question were not the same gotra marriages as erroneously reported in a section of the media. Grooms and brides in both cases belong to different gotras. Objections to these marriages rest on frivolous grounds — in one case some families of the bride’s gotra residing in her in-laws’ village while in another case the bride and the groom belonging to two neighbouring villages.


Khap panchayat is largely a Jat institution around Delhi. It is a gotra-centric body covering a cluster of villages dominated by a particular gotra of Jats. All the members of a khap are supposed to be related to one another with ties of blood. This bhaichara (brotherhood) is the basis of solidarity. Marriage within the same khap is a taboo. Even marriage in the gawand (neighbourhood) is frowned upon.


The khap is a medieval institution when Jats were tribals divided into clans. It acted as an instrument of security in an age marked by lawlessness. In modern times, it has outlived its utility when various institutions to maintain law and order are in operation.


The functioning of khap panchayats in Haryana and elsewhere around Delhi poses some fundamental issues which must be given due consideration if the society has to retain its civilised character. First of all, the concept of bhaichara in the khap area which was the raison d’etre of the institution is a myth now. Improved means of communications, transport, mass media and the spread of modern education have exposed the rural youth to the outside world and have led many of them to reject the mores of tribal society. All the members of a khap are no longer regarded as brothers and sisters and the intimacy between the two sexes is getting quite common. When it takes the shape of a matrimonial alliance, this is taken as a threat to the haloed institution of khap and invites barbarous punishment.
Secondly, the khap panchayat has no elective principle. Its so-called mukhias are self-appointed guardians of social mores. It has emasculated the electorally-constituted panchayats which give due representation to women and weaker sections.


Thirdly, It has no idea of symbiotic relationship between tradition and modernity. Tradition untouched by modernity starts stinking while modernity cut off from tradition is shallow. It is the harmonious blend between the two which takes society forward. The lack of this understanding explains its rigidity. In this respect, the Gatwala khap of Malik Jats in Gohana sub-division of Sonepat district of Haryana has proved quite sensible.


In cases of such marriages which recently rocked two villages in the state, the couple is advised to settle at any place other than the village of the groom and the issue is quietly buried. If this flexibility had been shown in the above two cases, the mammoth human tragedy — one young man brutally murdered while another narrowly escaped death after attempted suicide and his family currently living under serious threat — would have been avoided. Ravinder of Jhajjar district has been living with his aunt near Delhi for many years and had agreed to sever all relations with his parents while the deceased Ved Pal of Kaithal district had settled in Punjab.


Fourthly, the observance of khap norms has become impractical with the changing complexion of rural society. For instance, Samchana village has more than 15 Jat gotras. If the khap norm of avoiding matrimonial alliance among these gotras is observed, marriage in this village is well nigh impossible. As such the norms have been relaxed.


There are several villages in the khap belt which have about a dozen of Jat gotras, making matrimonial alliances a nightmare. Then there is a vast tract of land ranging from Fatehbad district in Haryana to Abohar-Fazilka in Punjab and adjoining areas of Rajasthan from Sri Ganganagar district to Bikaner, Jaisalmer and Badmer in Rajasthan where there is no khap system and every Jat-dominated village has almost all the Jat gotras prevalent in that area. Marriage in the same village is quite common in this belt.


Chautala, a village in Haryana, that has produced several leading politicians in the state, has several dozen marriages among its different Jat gotras. Moreover, Punjabi and Bania communities in Haryana are quite flexible in matter of gotras in matrimonial alliances. It is only Jats wedded to khaps who still live in medieval times.


The khap panchayat has become a law unto itself. It has evolved a parallel judicial system. Kangaroo courts are held and fatwas issued. Two ghastly incidents referred to above is not a rare occurrence. Several such episodes have occurred in the state and the culprits went scot- free. It is the kid-glove treatment meted out to khap custodians that has emboldened them to run amuck. A studied silence maintained by the leaders of all the political parties in Haryana except one left party is amazing. Consequently, Haryana has become a killing field for the youths eager for matrimonial alliances of their choice.


The khap panchayat in Haryana sticks out like a sore thumb in the body politic — a diseased part incapable of being cured and hence needs to be amputated. It is time its unconstitutional activities were banned with a heavy hand.


The Rajasthan High Court and the State Human Rights Commission took a suo motu notice of the functioning of the caste panchayats in the state and issued instructions to the state administration to apply a curb on them. The Home Ministry of Rajasthan vide its letter No. P-10(26) Home 13/98 dated February 14, 2001 issued instructions to the law enforcing agencies in the state to curb the unlawful functioning of the caste panchayats in the state. This has gone a long way to keep the monster under leash.


Rapid advance made by Haryana in the material field is regressive in the face of growing moral decay and spiritual atrophy in the state, with a sizeable section of its population fast lapsing into the dark zone of barbarity and depravity. It is like getting all the riches on the earth after selling one’s soul to the Lucifer.

He can be contacted on email id: drchaudhry@rediffmail.com

ravichaudhary
August 17th, 2009, 07:19 AM
Mayank


Could we know a little more about your Grandfather.


Perhaps you could write up a small biography of him.

Has he written many articles ? I think I have seen his name before.

Could you encourage him to communicate on this forum or on the Jathistory group or directly with me


Ravi Chaudhary.

rsdalal
August 17th, 2009, 07:32 AM
Kapil Panchayat can be wrong at many time, but people as well take advantage of panchayats in many cases. It is not uncommon to say "Hum to bahar rahe se, kisko patta lagega. Same intention is very much possible in this case as both boy and girl were living in Delhi.
So most probably parents did this knowingly, so why to blame panchayats.
Rahi baat shadi kar ke laye the, bhaga ke nahi, that depends who they invited where it was arranged. if it was so open, I am sure it was not a very unknown fact in that villege that Kadyans are living there. Even if bioy did not know all this, I am sure parents , Tau, chacha knew about this, they are living in the villege.
Even here on jatland there was one post from the relative of the family, where he tried to patray, that it was all because of property dispute, nothing else. Does that look like that now ?

And yes I think it is setting example, directly or indirectly
It is very unfortunate all this happens after the marriage took place, but family is more responsible for this than the panchayat. It is not a uncommon rules in villeges regarding the bhaichara and I am sure people in villege know about this. Now if some one does not even spend 5-10 mnts talking to Bade budhe of villege, why to blame panchayats.
Panchayats decision of not letting boy and girl is nothing wrong, if they can not follow the rules of society, why they want to live in one?


Yes, very good point! Problem isi baat se hai ki saara kaam ho jaane pe kuchh log apna hanga dikhana chaahte hain. Maine pehle waale thread pe bhi poochha tha ki kisi ko to khabar rahi hogi shaadi se pehle, is case mein to bhaja ke nahin laaye the...proper shaadi hui thi. Tab panchayat ne khilafat ki thi ki nahin? Ab rolla karne se kya faayda hoga- ab to shaadi ho gayi. Aisa bhi nahin hai ki example set kiya ja raha hai. Har 2-4 mahine mein ek naya maamla aa jaata hai. Kisi case mein jabran rakhi bandhwaayi jaati hai, kisi case main murder karr diya jaata hai. Kuchh logon ki zindagi barbaad hoti hai aur mudda to wahi rehta hai. Aisa to hua nahin ki yeh sab karne se case band ho gaye.

ravichaudhary
August 17th, 2009, 07:42 AM
[QUOTE=MayankKp;220902]My grandfather recently wrote an article on Khap Panchayat which was published in Tribune Newspaper. Excerpt:


Here is one reason we need more enlightenment.

**********


Make this boy his wife's brother! Haryana's Cultural Dilemma

Rajbir Deswal , ANTA: Jan 4 2009
http://rajbirdeswal.instablogs.com/entry/make-this-boy-his-wifes-brother-haryanas-cultural-dilemma/


The Khap Panchayats which are Kangaroo Courts dispence crude, brutal,abortive and senseless judgements in Haryana(an Indian state) like “Make this boy his wife’s brother for they belong to the same Gotra(Lineage or sirname) !” Rajbir Deswal’s book review of Haryana At Crossroads published in The Tribune exposes all that and much more...!


Popularly known as ‘Dee Aar’ in Haryana, the author is a man of many parts — an educationist, political commentator, social activist, thinker and philosopher rolled into one. Haryana at Crossroads, on the one hand, opens windows on current burning Haryana issues, and on the other, it provides a deep insight into the state’s glorious past, degenerated into a near-tribal cultural milieu.
The present-day Haryana’s devolvement is commented upon as having been a result of politics of populism propagated by the Lals of Haryana, with its slothful distinction of excelling in the art of ‘Aaya Ram, Gaya Rams’, en masse defections allegorised as ‘Ali Baba and 40 Thieves’, consequence of which manifested itself into the powers that be turning into whipping boys, doing the bidding of the Centre, and the common Harayanvi caring two hoots for discipline to be adhered to, in building up a society conducive to civic norms.


D. R. Chaudhry believes in Raymond William’s definition of culture, “Culture is no finished but static thing. It is a process that has continually to be renewed, recreated, defended and modified.” He laments that one comes across “a Jat, a Brahmin, an Ahir, a Punjabi or a local” in Haryana, but it is difficult to meet a Haryanvi in Haryana. He traces the origin of this dichotomy attributable to the collapse of the Mauryan empire providing opportunity of a free-for-all scenario, replete with looting, plundering, marauding of the region by the Greeks, Shakas, Scythians, Parthian, Hoons and Kushans.


According to the author, no social reforms movements ever visited the tradition-bound state except the Arya Samaj in its revivalist but backward-looking character. He rightly laments the absence of a cultural renaissance which could influence and impact the Haryanvis in acquiring a modern sensibility. This could also have led to avoiding crises in agriculture, industry, education, infrastructure, social justice, political formations, etc.
Chaudhry firmly believes in having a middle class, which has eluded Haryana, and which compels the sovereign to give better and accountable administration in terms of security, health, education and generating employment, etc. There are very few theatre groups in the state and there is no established film industry. Haryanvi dialect did not find a script and an appropriate literature unlike Punjabi. Patronising of art and culture in the state remained neglected in the absence of powerful feudalistic families which are known to spare their kitty for such like finer genres in a civilised and mature society. Step by step, the author diagnoses the ills the “unfortunate state” has been suffering since ages and it’s not being able to suitably adapt itself to the much-hyped modernity and its likely fall out.

Long-standing disputes of water with Punjab, including the states’ Capital issue, find mention in the book.

The author believes in Dr M.S. Swaminathan recommendations of measuring up with the ill effects of ‘exploitative agriculture’. Special Economic Zones (SEZs) have also been delineated in detail but the author is skeptical if the present-day powers that be, linked up with Reliance and other industrial houses, would be able to pay back enough, in terms of employment generation, and tax collection for the state exchequer, besides all Haryanvis’ collective acceptance of the concept of SEZs.

The book finds apt and objective handling of the situation as it obtains in the state. It calls a spade a spade and does not paint a rosy picture in itself. The universities lack autonomy and are second-grade government departments. Chaudhry believes in bringing about changes in the transfer policy and also that the panchayats’ and other civic bodies’ role in the spread of primary and higher education needs to be addressed. The author is also worried about the falling status of women in the state and suggests ways and means to appropriate the sex ratio and arrest female foeticide.

The issue of social justice also gets equally dexterous treatment at the hand of Chaudhry when he describes khap panchayats as ‘Kangaroo courts’ dispensing justice in crude, brutal, abortive and senseless adjudications. It is to the author’s credit that very recently, the Punjab and Haryana High Court referred to an article published by him in The Tribune on the same subject while hearing petitions against the ‘fatwas’ (edicts), issued by the khap panchayats which did have their relevance but in an era gone bye. The book is a must-read for scholars and researchers besides all those interested in Haryana affairs.

The Tribune Book Review at
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2009/20090104/spectrum/book4.htm

END

ravichaudhary
August 17th, 2009, 08:49 AM
My grandfather recently wrote an article on Khap Panchayat which was published in Tribune Newspaper. Excerpt:



A Tribune Special
Why are political parties silent on khaps?
These so-called panchayats must be banned, says D.R. Chaudhry


[LEFT]IN its lead editorial in The Tribune (July 25), a question is posed in all anguish: “Who rules Haryana?: The law or the khaps?”

answer is resounding: “the khaps”.



[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]There are sever

He can be contacted on email id: drchaudhry@rediffmail.com


This is exactly the question- whose law shall prevail- British law, or Jat law?


The reason there is no Khaps left in Rajasthan, is that they were destroyed by the Rajput- Muslim, and then the Rajput - British hegemony.

The Khaps could not be completely destroyed in Haryana and UP

Ravi Chaudhary

MayankKp
August 17th, 2009, 10:08 AM
I am sorry. his email id is: chaudhrydr@rediffmail.com

He would be glad to interact with people and discuss on the related issue with interested people.

MayankKp
August 17th, 2009, 10:10 AM
Rahul

Yes, he writes many articles mainly related to Haryana in different newspapers. You may contact him at chaudhrydr@rediffmail.com .

ravichaudhary
August 17th, 2009, 10:17 AM
I am sorry. his email id is: chaudhrydr@rediffmail.com

He would be glad to interact with people and discuss on the related issue with interested people.

Mayank

Perhaps he could become a member here, and participate on this jat forum.

He is also welcome to join the Jathistory group, URL below.

Would he be willing?


Where does he live?



Ravi Chaudhary.

spdeshwal
August 17th, 2009, 05:43 PM
Ravi ji

Shri DR Chaudhry was owner/editor of the very popular weekly 'Pingh'.
He was chairman of the HPSC, probably in late 70'sor early 80's and was instrumental in the selection of many jat HCS. He hails from village Chautala and settled in Rohtak for the last 3 decades. He is the father of Jatland member and Film Director Ashwini Chaudhry. I hope Mayank can post more information as he certainly deserves a place in Jat Wiki.


Cheers!

ravichaudhary
August 17th, 2009, 06:10 PM
[QUOTE=spdeshwal;220988]Ravi ji

Shri DR Chaudhry was owner/editor of the very popular weekly 'Pingh'.
He was chairman of the HPSC, probably in late 70'sor early 80's and was instrumental in the selection of many jat HCS. He hails from village Chautala and settled in Rohtak for the last 3 decades. He is the father of Jatland member and Film Director Ashwini Chaudhry. I hope Mayank can post more information as he certainly deserves a place in Jat Wiki.


Cheers![/QUOT

Can you tell us more?

His childhood, his education, his goth, etc

A biographical detail.


Ravi Chaudhary

Ambijat
August 17th, 2009, 11:48 PM
Ambrishji,

Khap sustem was there in Rajasthan prior to the rule of Rajputs but it was completely destroyed over a period of 500 years. Not only the system of organization of Jats was destroyed during this period but Jats were left with no resources. It was only a few years prioir to the independence that there was awakening through the Jat Mahasabhas.

I would have greatly appreciated if any historical account is referred. Recently, I came across the writings of Co. James Todd who has written extensively on Rajputana (the then Rajasthan). He refers to the Jat dominions in giving them a term 'canton'. This was actually a rural spread and yes a few of them commanded a political organisation eg the Godaras, Beniwals, Pooniahs, but they did not represent the vast number of Jat gotras and in fact the territorial sovereignty was actually in the hands of individual tillers except the pastures which were collective. I still doubt that all the Jats of Rajasthan would have had a khap like system. Even the cantons could not be put at par with the khaps.

ravichaudhary
August 18th, 2009, 01:15 AM
Ambrish

What Todd calls cantons are actually Khaps.

The Godharas had over 700 villages in their Khap.

Do not carried away by Todd's writiings and interpretaions.

He was not there to write a Histsory of the Jats

Please discuss your thoughts on the History section thread.

see :

Rajastan, Rajputana and Khaps

http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?p=221036#post221036.

Here let us stay with the main topic and not dilute it


Ravi Chaudhary

ravichaudhary
August 18th, 2009, 02:09 AM
I am sorry. his email id is: chaudhrydr@rediffmail.com

He would be glad to interact with people and discuss on the related issue with interested people.

I have sent him an invitation to join Jatland and the Jathistory group.

Perhaps you can help him register !

He is also most welcome to contact me directly


Ravi Chaudhary

Ambijat
August 18th, 2009, 12:22 PM
Ambrish

What Todd calls cantons are actually Khaps.

The Godharas had over 700 villages in their Khap.

Do not carried away by Todd's writiings and interpretaions.

He was not there to write a Histsory of the Jats

Please discuss your thoughts on the History section thread.

see :

Rajastan, Rajputana and Khaps

http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?p=221036#post221036.

Here let us stay with the main topic and not dilute it


Ravi Chaudhary

I believe Todd equally did not have any partisan attitude towards Rajputs either. He actually did a survey of states and thereby noted from Bardic accounts which in no case would have anything special to say for the Jats. But, the fact remains that all Jat gotras do not have this khap system as it essentially the tribal form.

It is very important to make distinction between the community organisations such as those of Paliwals and Jains, which were as rural and enforcing as the khaps, but still they were far remote from any notion of the khaps.

This khap system which has actually vilified the humble history of the Jats seems to be still holding ground in the particular belt of Haryana (not all) is because of some socio-cultural distinctiveness of the Jats of this particular region.

That's my only contention!
regards!

ARVINDJANGU
August 18th, 2009, 09:26 PM
मैंने चौधरी साहब की शादी के बारे में लिखा था जो के डिलीट कर दिया गया | शायद किसी mod को ये बात अखर गई हो | मैं सिर्फ इतना बताना चाहता था की सिरसा की तरफ के बागडी जाटों में अपने गाँव में शादी करने का रिवाज हैं व बागड़ी जाटों में खाप प्रणाली नहीं हैं जबकि हमारे देशवाली जाटों में खाप प्रणाली होती हैं | शादी के वक़्त हमे इन खापों के गाँव भाईचारे के तहत छोड़ने होते हैं | चौधरी साहब का खाप प्रणाली का विरोध लाजमी हैं , उनकी तरफ खुद के गाँव में ही शादी पर कोई ऐतराज नहीं होता और न ही उनकी तरफ खाप प्रणाली हैं |

Ambijat
August 19th, 2009, 01:19 AM
मैंने चौधरी साहब की शादी के बारे में लिखा था जो के डिलीट कर दिया गया | शायद किसी mod को ये बात अखर गई हो | मैं सिर्फ इतना बताना चाहता था की सिरसा की तरफ के बागडी जाटों में अपने गाँव में शादी करने का रिवाज हैं व बागड़ी जाटों में खाप प्रणाली नहीं हैं जबकि हमारे देशवाली जाटों में खाप प्रणाली होती हैं | शादी के वक़्त हमे इन खापों के गाँव भाईचारे के तहत छोड़ने होते हैं | चौधरी साहब का खाप प्रणाली का विरोध लाजमी हैं , उनकी तरफ खुद के गाँव में ही शादी पर कोई ऐतराज नहीं होता और न ही उनकी तरफ खाप प्रणाली हैं |
इस प्रकार के निजि तर्क किसी व्यक्ति के सार्वजनिक जीवन के विचार का आधार नहीं होता है, ऐसे बहुत से जाट समुदाय हैं जो कि खाप के बारे में किसी भौगोलिक आधार को नहीं मानते हैं । मसला सिर्फ गोत्र टालने का है जो कि चार गोतों से तय हो जाता है । इससे अधिक चीजों को जटिल बनाने में कहाँ की समझदारी है ।

ravichaudhary
August 19th, 2009, 01:52 AM
I believe Todd equally did not have any partisan attitude towards Rajputs either. He actually did a survey of states and thereby noted from Bardic accounts which in no case would have anything special to say for the Jats. But, the fact remains that all Jat gotras do not have this khap system as it essentially the tribal form.

It is very important to make distinction between the community organisations such as those of Paliwals and Jains, which were as rural and enforcing as the khaps, but still they were far remote from any notion of the khaps.

This khap system which has actually vilified the humble history of the Jats seems to be still holding ground in the particular belt of Haryana (not all) is because of some socio-cultural distinctiveness of the Jats of this particular region.

That's my only contention!
regards!-6+

With respect, your contention, can be questioned.

The Khap is not simply a community based organization. like the Jains have..

It is a geographical orgainzation, and in the Khaps the jains would also have to be part of and live by Khap decisions ( they were dominated by Jats - true.)

Todd's work was to glorify the Rajputs, and in that context you need to rethink your approach and conclusions.

Towards glorifying them he negated Jat History and appropriated it to the Rajputs.

The Rajputs and Muslims, together destroyed the Khaps in Rajasthan,as the British did in Haryana and U.P after 1857.,

For a detailed discussion, please post your comments , on the History section.

Here as I have pointed out earlier, it only clogs up and distracts from the main discussion.


Ravi Chaudhary

ravichaudhary
August 19th, 2009, 01:53 AM
इस प्रकार के निजि तर्क किसी व्यक्ति के सार्वजनिक जीवन के विचार का आधार नहीं होता है, ऐसे बहुत से जाट समुदाय हैं जो कि खाप के बारे में किसी भौगोलिक आधार को नहीं मानते हैं । मसला सिर्फ गोत्र टालने का है जो कि चार गोतों से तय हो जाता है । इससे अधिक चीजों को जटिल बनाने में कहाँ की समझदारी है ।


Please elaborate and expand with evidence and examples.


Ravi Chaudhary

annch
August 19th, 2009, 04:22 AM
Respected members,
Pardon my ignorance, however I failed to comprehend the Khap Panchayats vis-a-vis the Indian Judicial System. I have a few queries-

1) Is there a way to ensure that the khap passes unbiased decisions?
2) How is it proved that decision taken is right?
3) Any way to enforce the implementation of the decision?
4) Any way to challenge the decision? Who does one go to if the decision is not acceptable?
5) How many women are currently represented/ involved in Khap Panchayats?
6) Can anybody give a recent achievement of Khap Panchayat, besides the honor killings?......

Regards

annch
August 19th, 2009, 04:36 AM
Ravi ji,
What is a "jat law"? the law of men and muscle?
Regards

This is exactly the question- whose law shall prevail- British law, or Jat law?

annch
August 19th, 2009, 08:02 AM
I would like to present a case to the members, and invite their views.
Case:
There are three brothers in a joint family.All married and with sons and daughters. The means of livelihood- Agriculture.
The second brother has one son who is 5 years old. This brother passes away. The wife and son are mistreated by the rest of the family. The wife's family is unable to bear it, and takes her and her son to stay with them.
Years pass by. The remaining two brothers divide the property between themselves.
The wife of the second brother returns with her 16 year old son and asks for share of her husband in the property. The two brothers refuse to give her the share, saying that she gave up her and her son's right when she left the husbands' family for her own family.
The wife goes to the Khap Panchayat for justice.

Questions for the members:

1) Would Khap handle this case?
2) What do you think may be the decision of the Khap Panchayat? Whom does it favor?

Regards

jitendershooda
August 19th, 2009, 11:07 AM
Todd's work was to glorify the Rajputs, and in that context you need to rethink your approach and conclusions.

Towards glorifying them he negated Jat History and appropriated it to the Rajputs.


Ravi Ji,

We question Bhim Singh Dahiya, Todd and Hawa Singh Sangwan Ji. So this way we nearly decline each theory about jat history .... where to start believing, am confused.

If nothing is ok about we jats then why we always use to mention some book or other in history section.

jitendershooda
August 19th, 2009, 11:11 AM
मैंने चौधरी साहब की शादी के बारे में लिखा था जो के डिलीट कर दिया गया | शायद किसी mod को ये बात अखर गई हो | मैं सिर्फ इतना बताना चाहता था की सिरसा की तरफ के बागडी जाटों में अपने गाँव में शादी करने का रिवाज हैं व बागड़ी जाटों में खाप प्रणाली नहीं हैं जबकि हमारे देशवाली जाटों में खाप प्रणाली होती हैं | शादी के वक़्त हमे इन खापों के गाँव भाईचारे के तहत छोड़ने होते हैं | चौधरी साहब का खाप प्रणाली का विरोध लाजमी हैं , उनकी तरफ खुद के गाँव में ही शादी पर कोई ऐतराज नहीं होता और न ही उनकी तरफ खाप प्रणाली हैं |

It is also evident from the replies of members on this forum itself. Where some members who are not from this area even criticised the basics followed by other area people.

I also feel that a person view point is largely influenced by his family/locality followings. It is obvious that if someone belongs to a village where they can marry in same village will favour that and others not. Its human behaviour.

jitendershooda
August 19th, 2009, 11:18 AM
The wife goes to the Khap Panchayat for justice.

Questions for the members:

1) Would Khap handle this case?
2) What do you think may be the decision of the Khap Panchayat? Whom does it favor?

Regards

My views
1) Yes, Khap will handle this case. You have mentioned that wife goes to khap panchayat for justice, then I feel they will definatly respond.

2) Decision of the khap panchayat would be to provide jameen and haq to the boy. Panchayat would favour Wife and her boy.

Now I have seen many cases where individuals dont obey panchayats and they move to court. In this case too this will happen. But interesting thing is that in this case perhaps khap panchayats will not give a Samajik bahishkar to the culprits.

jitendershooda
August 19th, 2009, 12:12 PM
Could you please try to answer the same questions with respect to present judiciary system in India leaving behind panchayats/khaps.


Respected members,
Pardon my ignorance, however I failed to comprehend the Khap Panchayats vis-a-vis the Indian Judicial System. I have a few queries-

1) Is there a way to ensure that the khap passes unbiased decisions?
- I feel that this all is depreciating with the depreciation of human values and with no rights to khaps/panchayats. You cant say that panchayats decisions are always unbiased but in majority they are.

2) How is it proved that decision taken is right?
- Its by majority and by people of both parties. I have seen that panchayats mostly take decisions in-between right and wrong. They are more right but not precisely. Beech-bachav ka rasta dekh ke nirnaya hota hai. At first look it seems wrong but if one see in long run then its good.
a) The parties have saved their transportation, advocate fees, lots of photocopies etc etc.
b) Also they didnt get bitter relations as much they will get during police-court proceedings.
c) In court and police both parties leave the original matters behind and run with false accuses and then go to any heights to prove them.
d) But in case of panchayats everything is visible and its fact that these panchayats have few such nice and sage guys that you will not find that much wisery in judges too.

3) Any way to enforce the implementation of the decision?
- I feel that in present day the panchayats are bodies with no hands and only they are at receiving end. I have seen few panchayats where any of the party (mostly the culprits) didnt obeyed the decision and they have gone to court as they knew the proceedings of courts and loopholes available. Instead in panchayats there is lot of be-ijjati for the worng doer in front of their own people. Instead in courts the culprit and influencial person can swing things.

4) Any way to challenge the decision? Who does one go to if the decision is not acceptable?
- There is a hierarchy for the panchayats too. Initial village level, then 4 gaama - bahra ki panchayat, then khap panchayat and then kae khap panchayat and then sarv khap panchayat.

5) How many women are currently represented/ involved in Khap Panchayats?
-This needs to be addressed.

6) Can anybody give a recent achievement of Khap Panchayat, besides the honor killings?......
-Here I wish to ask a question in response ... Have you any evidence where the khap have issued a fatwa for KILLING? I have heard that they never did so, if the individual family is taking some step then should we put that too on shoulders of KHAP panchayat?

Haan we may disagree with their decisions of forcing the guy-girl (couple) to be bro-sister after marriage but putting killing blaim is injustice to them.

Now what is their achievements in recent years -
a) Also many a land related and hindu marriage act issues in Haryana are resolved by panchayats later on when both the parties have been fed up with the court proceedings and costs involved. A land case of one of my known one was resolved by force and panchayat after 33 years of court proceedings and all wins. (1972-2003).

b) Also you can find how much marriages have been re-settled by courts since HMA. Delhi police and others are now taking help of legal-panchayats to solve these out. As with a single spark in between relations both parties use such blames on each other that their marriage become impossible to re-sume. Girls will file dowry case and other false allegations and so is boys side who will put character blame over the gal. Advocates will enjoy and both parties will be the loosers for ever. But many a cases have been daily resolved by panchayats .... beshak unke decisions beech-bachav ke rahete hon aur kisi ek party ko thoda bahut samjhota karna padta ho but still they enjoy it in long run.

c) Kae jegah salon ki parivarik-dushmaniyan jinmein kae kae jane ja chuki hein dono side se ... court-police-jail se tang aake panchayaton mein faisle hue hein ... that too recently.

Regards

Overall this system was indeed a good system and needs to be carried forward but in present scenerio needs lots of improvements with some legal put also.

I would say Anjoo's questions have substance and I responded only to defend the fact that these panchayats are for good and we shouldnt portray them as villians. Instead we can improve them every day and they can prove (are proving) load sharers for Indian judicial system which is having very less efficiency with so much backlog and loopholes.

dskadyan
August 19th, 2009, 02:34 PM
I was just want this kind of Contribution. And I Like the way Hooda Sahab Gave Answer to Anju's Questions.

I find one question unanswered.
Q. 5) How many women are currently represented/ involved in Khap Panchayats?

This is all most ZERO. And reason is that women are not suitable for that kind of situations. Because situation is always tense in these kind of panchayats. there are many cases when the village put PUNCHs in hostage.And I dont think that this is neccessary to women get any representation in Khap Panchayat. This is not the case that Man cant Handle Woman's Related case. if needed then woman can also be there. But decisions are taken as whole society,human being and natural law. Not the male, female and powerful or poor discrimination are there .

And the issue of Biasing and all are not there in Panchayats. As Judicial System is totaly based on Witness,Presentation and Rule Book. But Panchyat is About a solution to a problem and a Rightly said in earlier replies, EK BICH KA RASTA FOR ALL PARTIES. Not like Judicial system that gives a Punitive action for one. Panchayats gives Good for all verdict. Punch are having much load on their shoulders for right decision. they do a lot of discussion and then pass the decision.

Some time Panchayats also do some mistake but there is always a method to rectify by taking Bigger Panchayat or re-assembling at different time. The Governments or these so Called Judges - Made our this system in such a bad shape that now Panchayat are non existence.

Judicial System is based on Individualilsm and Privatism. But Panchayats are for Socialistic view which is best suits for longer run.

ravichaudhary
August 20th, 2009, 01:32 AM
Ravi ji,
What is a "jat law"? the law of men and muscle?
Regards

I have moved my response and further discussion to the History section;


http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28276


Much matter overlaps.

Here we are trying to discuss the current situation. Detailed Historical aspect should be in History section.

Please try and post in relevant sections

Thank you all for the patience


Ravi Chaudhary

ravichaudhary
August 20th, 2009, 01:36 AM
Ravi Ji,

We question Bhim Singh Dahiya, Todd and Hawa Singh Sangwan Ji. So this way we nearly decline each theory about jat history .... where to start believing, am confused.

If nothing is ok about we jats then why we always use to mention some book or other in history section.

Jitender

History is not a perfect science.

We still need to study it, to guide out present and future.

We cannot study something without a spirit of enquiry and questioning.

Let us keep tryiing



Ravi

ravichaudhary
August 20th, 2009, 02:12 AM
Respected members,
Pardon my ignorance, however I failed to comprehend the Khap Panchayats vis-a-vis the Indian Judicial System. I have a few queries-

1) Is there a way to ensure that the khap passes unbiased decisions?
2) How is it proved that decision taken is right?
3) Any way to enforce the implementation of the decision?
4) Any way to challenge the decision? Who does one go to if the decision is not acceptable?
5) How many women are currently represented/ involved in Khap Panchayats?
6) Can anybody give a recent achievement of Khap Panchayat, besides the honor killings?......

Regards


Jitender Hooda Sahib has given some very insightful explanations. I agree with him.

Some more thoughts:


1) Is there a way to ensure that the Khap passes unbiased decisions?

Response: No there is no way to know that the decision is not biased. That also happened with any judicial system. It is well known how corrupt the Indian Judicial system is, and judges are bought with money in routine.

Since it is direct democracy, the Khap Panchayat cannot get away with a biased decision, they have live with the rest, day in and day out.


2) How is it proved that decision taken is right?

Response: as usual time tells

3) Any way to enforce the implementation of the decision?

Response; Enforcement was by consensus. A person living in the ‘same;’ had to follow the rules and norms of the Samaj- society. Fines were levied, Ostracization was one extreme punishment.

4) Any way to challenge the decision? Who does one go to if the decision is not acceptable?

Yes, one could go to the higher Khap, or to the Sarv Khap which acted as the Supreme Court,


5) How many women are currently represented/ involved in Khap Panchayat?

Difficult question.

If you are talking about women’s empowerment, historically we have evidence that women also participated in the Panchayat, as for example when the Khap Panchayat was meeting and debating responses to the Khiljis, or the Mughals or to Timur.

On a day to day basis I cannot say.

The Jats have been a patriarchal society historically, and I suspect that the Panchayat did not in routine give women a vote. Were they heard – I would say yes.

The saying was “I speak at home; you speak for me at the Panchayat.”

Does this need to change ?- obviously. Women should have full participation.

Let us also keep in mind, that women is England received voting rights only in 1928. In contrast Jat women were part of the Panchayat meetings in 1398. some five hundred years earlier.

The position of the lady was probably the best in Jat society, whether it was re marriage, rights in the family etc, she held a position of honor.

If some one wishes, we can discuss this; I will post a paper on the History section.
.

6) Can anybody give a recent achievement of Khap Panchayat, besides the honor killings?

There is NO, repeat NO, honor in killing.

Jats are not violent by nature. They are conservative, may be quick to anger, but their culture does not lead them to casual and easy violence.

When a loved one gets killed, it creates a vacuum in the family, an emptiness that is impossible to replace.

Again we can discuss this on a separate thread, but I suspect these killing were more ‘crimes of passion,’ and ‘temporary insanity’, than cold blooded killings for gain.

I cannot see the Panchayats issuing such an order to kill .

I can see individuals, going out of their minds, and taking acts that they later regret.

Jats have a culture of tolerance for all, and are very civilized by nature as their history shows.

As to major decisions they have taken recently.

Their political and judicial power was crushed in 1857. It is only in that 25 years or so, that there has been a ground swell ,and the common village people are reviving these bodies , as they can get no satisfaction of from the Judicial- police- political nexus.

Their movements have improved the rights of rural people , through a constant ongoing interaction with administration and politicians


Other view are welcome

Ravi Chaudhary

ravichaudhary
August 20th, 2009, 02:14 AM
My views
1) Yes, Khap will handle this case. You have mentioned that wife goes to khap panchayat for justice, then I feel they will definatly respond.

2) Decision of the khap panchayat would be to provide jameen and haq to the boy. Panchayat would favour Wife and her boy.

Now I have seen many cases where individuals dont obey panchayats and they move to court. In this case too this will happen. But interesting thing is that in this case perhaps khap panchayats will not give a Samajik bahishkar to the culprits.

I agree with Jitender.

The Khap would provide Justice

Ravi

annch
August 20th, 2009, 07:32 AM
Jitender, Ravi ji,
Thank you for your thoughts.
The reality- Khap Panchayat told the brothers to give the woman and her son a share in the property. The brothers refused to follow the decision of the Panchayat. The woman and her family could not afford to fight for their right in the courts. So, she had no choice but to go back to her family, empty handed.
As Jitender pointed out, why didn't the Khap Panchayat stop the hukka-paani of the errant brothers?
Regards


My views
1) Yes, Khap will handle this case. You have mentioned that wife goes to khap panchayat for justice, then I feel they will definatly respond.

2) Decision of the khap panchayat would be to provide jameen and haq to the boy. Panchayat would favour Wife and her boy.

Now I have seen many cases where individuals dont obey panchayats and they move to court. In this case too this will happen. But interesting thing is that in this case perhaps khap panchayats will not give a Samajik bahishkar to the culprits.

mann123
August 20th, 2009, 08:05 AM
Ravi jee

With due respect the panchayat bend against powerful and everyone living in the village knows that. The only concensus they might have have is to punish a Girl (of course not BOY) if she has done something wrong.

In this scenario also they gave there decisions but what about implementation.

In my opinion they must have a say in court ...like recommending their decision to court and getting it stamped.

Thanks


I agree with Jitender.

The Khap would provide Justice

Ravi

annch
August 20th, 2009, 08:13 AM
Great proposal!!!

Ravi jee
In my opinion they must have a say in court ...like recommending their decision to court and getting it stamped.

Thanks

annch
August 20th, 2009, 11:38 AM
Jitender,
Appreciate your revert to my questions, thanks. I do favor the khap panchayats, but not in their current form of dark ages. It would be a long wait before khaps grow into institutions to run parallel to judiciary.

#The judiciary system is very well documented, and well supported by other institutions. To compare Khaps with Judiciary would be inappropriate. I guess the judiciary system is more evolved form of the Khaps.

#Yes, khaps can support the judiciary in expediting cases, but what would be the nature of these cases? only the petty ones that need quick resolutions or where a petitioner cannot afford a lawyer? Correct me if I am wrong here, but khaps do not have calibre to handle issues involving high stakes (now that land is a commodity) or complex political gameplans. Villagers killed the couple who flouted the acceptable norms. Will khap exonerate the villagers involved in this murder justified by social norms?

#How influential a khap can be? We have an example of Mahender Singh Tikait, a khap chaudhary who rose to be the president of Bhartiya Kisan Union.Correct me if I am wrong, this is the strongest a khap can grow in its current structure. What impact has he/khap had so far in his/its sphere of influence?

#Could role of Khaps stretch further than the social norms (match-making and match-breaking) and into the political and economic domain of the villages? Not just to improve the "values" but also the economic conditions?

Regards,
Anju

Could you please try to answer the same questions with respect to present judiciary system in India leaving behind panchayats/khaps.



Overall this system was indeed a good system and needs to be carried forward but in present scenerio needs lots of improvements with some legal put also.

I would say Anjoo's questions have substance and I responded only to defend the fact that these panchayats are for good and we shouldnt portray them as villians. Instead we can improve them every day and they can prove (are proving) load sharers for Indian judicial system which is having very less efficiency with so much backlog and loopholes.

annch
August 20th, 2009, 11:42 AM
Ravi ji,
You have added meat to Jitender's arguement in favor of the khap panchayats.
However, I differ from your stand in a few aspects, that i would elaborate in my future post soon.
Regards
Anju

Jitender Hooda Sahib has given some very insightful explanations. I agree with him.

Some more thoughts:


1) Is there a way to ensure that the Khap passes unbiased decisions?

Response: No there is no way to know that the decision is not biased. That also happened with any judicial system. It is well known how corrupt the Indian Judicial system is, and judges are bought with money in routine.

Since it is direct democracy, the Khap Panchayat cannot get away with a biased decision, they have live with the rest, day in and day out.


2) How is it proved that decision taken is right?

Response: as usual time tells

3) Any way to enforce the implementation of the decision?

Response; Enforcement was by consensus. A person living in the ‘same;’ had to follow the rules and norms of the Samaj- society. Fines were levied, Ostracization was one extreme punishment.

4) Any way to challenge the decision? Who does one go to if the decision is not acceptable?

Yes, one could go to the higher Khap, or to the Sarv Khap which acted as the Supreme Court,


5) How many women are currently represented/ involved in Khap Panchayat?

Difficult question.

If you are talking about women’s empowerment, historically we have evidence that women also participated in the Panchayat, as for example when the Khap Panchayat was meeting and debating responses to the Khiljis, or the Mughals or to Timur.

On a day to day basis I cannot say.

The Jats have been a patriarchal society historically, and I suspect that the Panchayat did not in routine give women a vote. Were they heard – I would say yes.

The saying was “I speak at home; you speak for me at the Panchayat.”

Does this need to change ?- obviously. Women should have full participation.

Let us also keep in mind, that women is England received voting rights only in 1928. In contrast Jat women were part of the Panchayat meetings in 1398. some five hundred years earlier.

The position of the lady was probably the best in Jat society, whether it was re marriage, rights in the family etc, she held a position of honor.

If some one wishes, we can discuss this; I will post a paper on the History section.
.

6) Can anybody give a recent achievement of Khap Panchayat, besides the honor killings?

There is NO, repeat NO, honor in killing.

Jats are not violent by nature. They are conservative, may be quick to anger, but their culture does not lead them to casual and easy violence.

When a loved one gets killed, it creates a vacuum in the family, an emptiness that is impossible to replace.

Again we can discuss this on a separate thread, but I suspect these killing were more ‘crimes of passion,’ and ‘temporary insanity’, than cold blooded killings for gain.

I cannot see the Panchayats issuing such an order to kill .

I can see individuals, going out of their minds, and taking acts that they later regret.

Jats have a culture of tolerance for all, and are very civilized by nature as their history shows.

As to major decisions they have taken recently.

Their political and judicial power was crushed in 1857. It is only in that 25 years or so, that there has been a ground swell ,and the common village people are reviving these bodies , as they can get no satisfaction of from the Judicial- police- political nexus.

Their movements have improved the rights of rural people , through a constant ongoing interaction with administration and politicians


Other view are welcome

Ravi Chaudhary

ravichaudhary
August 20th, 2009, 07:06 PM
Ravi ji,
You have added meat to Jitender's arguement in favor of the khap panchayats.
However, I differ from your stand in a few aspects, that i would elaborate in my future post soon.
Regards
Anju

Anju

Please do.

I hope other members will also take advantage of this and contribute their thoughts.

Nothing is cast in stone.

We must evolve and adapt to meet current challenges


Ravi Chaudhary

dskadyan
August 22nd, 2009, 12:55 AM
Jitender,
Appreciate your revert to my questions, thanks. I do favor the khap panchayats, but not in their current form of dark ages. It would be a long wait before khaps grow into institutions to run parallel to judiciary.

#The judiciary system is very well documented, and well supported by other institutions. To compare Khaps with Judiciary would be inappropriate. I guess the judiciary system is more evolved form of the Khaps.

Here I would like to tell you this Written rules are problems. what are those
1. They are rigid.
2. Lawyer Plays with wording in rule. Sky is limit for word plays as there is pools of rule books.
3. Khap Panchayat is not in dark age. You can say its evolved and tested method. Jury and Supreme court with 3 and 5 judges are imitation of the Panchayats. Only there is so much red tapes,alienation and overcrowded they are not as use full as panchayats.
4. And yes you can say there is so much difference in Verdict that they seems cruel some time. But getting 7-10 years term for some thing that should be overlooked. Like accidental deaths and many such cases.

Still i want to improove our khap panchayats and it should start with judidcial system gives verdict against Panchayats and members.

Aur jo yeh Honour Killing ki baat karte hai ki galat hai, they should put themselves at their position. You also would kill at those situation. Killing man dont give them any pleasure or some thing.
And I dont think any JAT will give reward here to the person.

sidchhikara
August 22nd, 2009, 02:25 AM
Here I would like to tell you this Written rules are problems. what are those
1. They are rigid.
2. Lawyer Plays with wording in rule. Sky is limit for word plays as there is pools of rule books.
3. Khap Panchayat is not in dark age. You can say its evolved and tested method. Jury and Supreme court with 3 and 5 judges are imitation of the Panchayats. Only there is so much red tapes,alienation and overcrowded they are not as use full as panchayats.
4. And yes you can say there is so much difference in Verdict that they seems cruel some time. But getting 7-10 years term for some thing that should be overlooked. Like accidental deaths and many such cases.

Still i want to improove our khap panchayats and it should start with judidcial system gives verdict against Panchayats and members.

Aur jo yeh Honour Killing ki baat karte hai ki galat hai, they should put themselves at their position. You also would kill at those situation. Killing man dont give them any pleasure or some thing.
And I dont think any JAT will give reward here to the person.

I also think murder is A-OK as long as the murderer does not receive any gifts. In case someone gives the murderer a gift, he should straightaway turn it down and chastize the gift-giver by laying down the rule about gift-less honor killings.
As regards to pleasure, what if the murderer has a pleasing personality? So Khaat panchayat should come up with a rule for banning murderers with pleasing personalities. All this projection is now making my head hurt.

annch
August 22nd, 2009, 06:51 AM
Kadyan ji,
Can you substantiate any of your comments with facts or examples or news in favor of Khap Panchayats?
# Your point 2) contradicts point 1).
# Your point 3): You mean panchayats can handle the volume and variety of cases-civil, criminal, corporate, etc, etc, that Judiciary handles?
# Your point 4): Let me give a simple example. Eve-teasing, a harmless fun activity of a man that can be over looked. However, for a woman, she would like to see him flogged senseless.

Lets make law even more simple- Eye for an eye, life for a life.
Lets call the people involved in honor killing as the Social Workers. Afterall they are working towards the upliftment of your social values without any ulterior motives. Right?
Regards

Here I would like to tell you this Written rules are problems. what are those
1. They are rigid.
2. Lawyer Plays with wording in rule. Sky is limit for word plays as there is pools of rule books.
3. Khap Panchayat is not in dark age. You can say its evolved and tested method. Jury and Supreme court with 3 and 5 judges are imitation of the Panchayats. Only there is so much red tapes,alienation and overcrowded they are not as use full as panchayats.
4. And yes you can say there is so much difference in Verdict that they seems cruel some time. But getting 7-10 years term for some thing that should be overlooked. Like accidental deaths and many such cases.

Still i want to improove our khap panchayats and it should start with judidcial system gives verdict against Panchayats and members.

Aur jo yeh Honour Killing ki baat karte hai ki galat hai, they should put themselves at their position. You also would kill at those situation. Killing man dont give them any pleasure or some thing.
And I dont think any JAT will give reward here to the person.

annch
August 22nd, 2009, 11:17 AM
Dear Sir,
Kindly note the inserts in bold.
Regards

Jitender Hooda Sahib has given some very insightful explanations. I agree with him.

Some more thoughts:


1) Is there a way to ensure that the Khap passes unbiased decisions?

Response: No there is no way to know that the decision is not biased. That also happened with any judicial system. It is well known how corrupt the Indian Judicial system is, and judges are bought with money in routine.

Since it is direct democracy, the Khap Panchayat cannot get away with a biased decision, they have live with the rest, day in and day out. As khaps will grow in power, so will the Khap Chaudharys, and their status. Do you think chaudharys will be incorruptible and not misuse that power?
5) How many women are currently represented/ involved in Khap Panchayat?

The position of the lady was probably the best in Jat society, whether it was re marriage, rights in the family etc, she held a position of honor.

If some one wishes, we can discuss this; I will post a paper on the History section.-This would be nice to be reminded of status of women in our jat society.
.

6) Can anybody give a recent achievement of Khap Panchayat, besides the honor killings?

When a loved one gets killed, it creates a vacuum in the family, an emptiness that is impossible to replace.

Again we can discuss this on a separate thread, but I suspect these killing were more ‘crimes of passion,’ and ‘temporary insanity’, than cold blooded killings for gain.-Ravi ji, does this justify taking a life?

I cannot see the Panchayats issuing such an order to kill . -what about instigating it or condoning it? Isn't that akin to murder?

Jats have a culture of tolerance for all, and are very civilized by nature as their history shows.I disagree, we seem to have an instinctive zero tolerance for any sort of opposition/check/counter to our thoughts, behaviour or actions.

As to major decisions they have taken recently.

Their political and judicial power was crushed in 1857. It is only in that 25 years or so, that there has been a ground swell ,and the common village people are reviving these bodies , as they can get no satisfaction of from the Judicial- police- political nexus.-A common man in a village prefers to solve his problems within consensus of a family or a Kunba or panchayat, else accept it as fate or go to judiciary if they can afford it. Is it the common man or the enlightened souls with political ambitions who are reviving Khaps?

Their movements have improved the rights of rural people , through a constant ongoing interaction with administration and politicians-could you guide me to any material supportive of this, thanks.

Other view are welcome

Ravi Chaudhary

rakeshsehrawat
August 22nd, 2009, 01:53 PM
Dear Sir,
Kindly note the inserts in bold.
Regards

Again wrong direction and assumption
Honour killing is different from panchayat's decision
I haven't seen panchayat making decision to kill anyone. It is either from family side of girl or boy. Mostly from family of girl.
Tum logo ko ye kaun batata hai ki panchayat logo ki hatya karwati hai.
TV media se bahar niklo ye log siraf khabro ko bechte hain. And they believe in destroying culture.

Who are the persons running panchayats? It is common man who is not holding position in politics.Politics to is kaam ko khatam karne par ho rahi hai. Ye ek janta ki adalat hai jo constitution par nahi human feelings pe based hai jiska kaam bhaichara banana hai na ki bigadna. Ek gaon jisme do gotra wale salo se rehte aaye hain us gaon mein ek aadmi doosre gotra ki ladki biyah lata hai to ye batao us gaon wale us ladki ko kya kaheein? Behan ya bhabhi? aur iske liye wo us parivar ko gaon chodne ko kehta hain to isme burai kya hai? Unhone unka katl nahi kiya tum log media ki baato pe kyun jate ho? khud ek baar jake to dekho wahan kaun sa MP ya MLA baitha hai?

dskadyan
August 25th, 2009, 11:22 AM
Kadyan ji,
Can you substantiate any of your comments with facts or examples or news in favor of Khap Panchayats?
# Your point 2) contradicts point 1).
May be, so it should be in our judicial system.
# Your point 3): You mean panchayats can handle the volume and variety of cases-civil, criminal, corporate, etc, etc, that Judiciary handles?
No, Panchayats will resolve things. But you are right judicial system handles them and well for long long time. Other wise a jameen case wont take more than 8 hours to solve, that may take even 30 years in our judicial system.
# Your point 4): Let me give a simple example. Eve-teasing, a harmless fun activity of a man that can be over looked. However, for a woman, she would like to see him flogged senseless.
This post is not about man vs woman. and now cases are there that man are also target of these kind of attacks by women. And you may have seen so many cases of girls tries to kiss a man celebrity in public, in media.You may say these are in cases of celebrities and are rare, but point is that sharam and all these things are no more important for metropolitan girls and even for many village and small cities girl.All these things happen because social respect decreasing day by day. If we have strong panchayats many crime wont exist on the earth, at least not in these numbers.


Lets make law even more simple- Eye for an eye, life for a life.
Lets call the people involved in honor killing as the Social Workers. Afterall they are working towards the upliftment of your social values without any ulterior motives. Right?

Yeh sab hindu panchayats ki cheezein nahi hai. app kaha se pakad kar layee hai ram jane.

I think you have wrong idea of panchayat.

Its not a rigid structure. No body got selected for any permanent post. This is where we as common man do the justice for two parties which are having issue. A group of certain people which both parties trust is panchayat. And bigger version of this system is called khap panchayat. Do you think you cant resolve issue of your two coleague better and faster than the judge which dont know any one of them?

And we are not suggesting to remove judiciary system. just supporting to keep this parallel system alive and in this time of lesser social respect it can be happen only if government support this system. And it will increase harmony and better social enviorment.

rakeshsehrawat
August 25th, 2009, 11:34 AM
I think you have wrong idea of panchayat.

Its not a rigid structure. No body got selected for any permanent post. This is where we as common man do the justice for two parties which are having issue. A group of certain people which both parties trust is panchayat. And bigger version of this system is called khap panchayat. Do you think you cant resolve issue of your two coleague better and faster than the judge which dont know any one of them?

And we are not suggesting to remove judiciary system. just supporting to keep this parallel system alive and in this time of lesser social respect it can be happen only if government support this system. And it will increase harmony and better social enviorment.
Chod kadiyan kyun khamkha bawla ho rehya hai.
jin logo ne dunia siraf TV ki nazar se dekhi hai unhe samjhane ka koi fayda nahi. bihar ki panchayat aur thakurgirii dekhi hai in ne bus.
Agar panchayat wale itne tagde politician ya paise wale log hote to unka naam pehli baar kaise sunte hain ye log???

annch
August 25th, 2009, 06:34 PM
Rakesh,
I respect your viewpoint. I would have thought that you would also cite the great deeds of Khap panchayats to convince the non-believers like me.
I am not against Khaps. I am against their agenda.
I guess there is a conspiracy against the Haryana khaps in the press. They seem to have lost out on the good work by Khaps.
Regards






Chod kadiyan kyun khamkha bawla ho rehya hai.
jin logo ne dunia siraf TV ki nazar se dekhi hai unhe samjhane ka koi fayda nahi. bihar ki panchayat aur thakurgirii dekhi hai in ne bus.
Agar panchayat wale itne tagde politician ya paise wale log hote to unka naam pehli baar kaise sunte hain ye log???

annch
August 25th, 2009, 06:53 PM
If Panchayat gave that decision, do you think Panchayat Chaudhrys would be able to avoid imprisonment?
Panchayat did not condemn the act of villagers who killed the couple. Isn't that a kind of support to murder?

Again wrong direction and assumption
Honour killing is different from panchayat's decision
I haven't seen panchayat making decision to kill anyone. It is either from family side of girl or boy. Mostly from family of girl.
Tum logo ko ye kaun batata hai ki panchayat logo ki hatya karwati hai.
TV media se bahar niklo ye log siraf khabro ko bechte hain. And they believe in destroying culture.

Who are the persons running panchayats? It is common man who is not holding position in politics.Politics to is kaam ko khatam karne par ho rahi hai. Ye ek janta ki adalat hai jo constitution par nahi human feelings pe based hai jiska kaam bhaichara banana hai na ki bigadna. Ek gaon jisme do gotra wale salo se rehte aaye hain us gaon mein ek aadmi doosre gotra ki ladki biyah lata hai to ye batao us gaon wale us ladki ko kya kaheein? Behan ya bhabhi? aur iske liye wo us parivar ko gaon chodne ko kehta hain to isme burai kya hai? Unhone unka katl nahi kiya tum log media ki baato pe kyun jate ho? khud ek baar jake to dekho wahan kaun sa MP ya MLA baitha hai?

kapdal
August 25th, 2009, 07:21 PM
If Panchayat gave that decision, do you think they would be able to avoid imprisonment?
Panchayat did not condemn the act of villagers who killed the couple. Isn't that a kind of support to murder?

Forget support or condemn. They are mere words. If panchayat is the authority in the village society, then it better enforce its authority. OK, it is debatable that the couple should have been punished or not and if yes, then in what form. But Panchayat DID enforce its authority and forced them out of the village. Fine. I would beg to differ with them but they are the rule-enforcers of the village society, probably they know better and so I can live with their decision. But now some people kill the couple. Where is panchayat's authority now? I don't even want any condemnation. I want punishment for the killers. Why doesn't it take action against the murderers? And I don't want any bhaashan on pratishastha, parampara and anushashan on how honor justifies the killing. Or any roundabout logic that Panchayat didn't order the killings, it is the relatives who killed the couple. In that case, one will find examples where relatives did the marriage as well (like in Dharana). No civil society can allow members to go berserk, take law in their hands and impart vigilante justice. That is jungle law. If you have authority and you enforce it in one case, you have to enforce it in all cases.

annch
August 25th, 2009, 08:07 PM
Panchayat ke chaudhriyan kii matti maari gayii akk maaraniya ne sazaa de de? Maran teh toh unne bhi darr laagey hai!!!

But now some people kill the couple. Where is panchayat's authority now? I don't even want any condemnation. I want punishment for the killers. Why doesn't it take action against the murderers?

annch
August 25th, 2009, 08:44 PM
Kadyan ji,
Please cite examples of what Khaps have achieved so far, backed by proof, thanks.
What Khaps "can do" for the rural society, sky is the limit...how about telling what khap has done?

I think you have wrong idea of panchayat.

Its not a rigid structure. No body got selected for any permanent post. This is where we as common man do the justice for two parties which are having issue. A group of certain people which both parties trust is panchayat. And bigger version of this system is called khap panchayat. Do you think you cant resolve issue of your two coleague better and faster than the judge which dont know any one of them?

And we are not suggesting to remove judiciary system. just supporting to keep this parallel system alive and in this time of lesser social respect it can be happen only if government support this system. And it will increase harmony and better social enviorment.

bsanjusmily
August 26th, 2009, 01:44 AM
thnkas for u that u h written abt khaap panchayat.....bt 1 thng that how u give ordered to kill sombody...tht nt fine...very illigal n dsnt gud for future of jaats....do ur work plz n nt bothrd other people...jiyo or jeene do....we all knows tht kese rahna h or kya karna h...we r enough educated than the thekedaar of our community...we know our gud n bed.....plz dnt teach any1....i respect you bt nt ur thoughts...."["]jese hinduo ke thekedaar bane h is desh me vaise plz aap jaato ke thekedaar mat baniye..".[/COLOR][/COLOR]
thnks..sir....

annch
August 27th, 2009, 07:56 AM
Heres' news from Deccan Herald.
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/21139/jatland-horrors.html
And, heres' an excerpt-
Not only the families, deeply hurt and enraged over being ‘betrayed’ by the boy or the girl, who fall in love and choose to marry against their wishes, but also the ‘all powerful’ caste panchayats perpetrate or abet ‘honour killings’.
The caste panchayats have in the past pronounced orders to strangle, burn or hack the lovers to death for ‘violating’ the `strict caste-based traditions’.

rakeshsehrawat
August 27th, 2009, 09:41 AM
Heres' news from Deccan Herald.
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/21139/jatland-horrors.html
And, heres' an excerpt-
Not only the families, deeply hurt and enraged over being ‘betrayed’ by the boy or the girl, who fall in love and choose to marry against their wishes, but also the ‘all powerful’ caste panchayats perpetrate or abet ‘honour killings’.
The caste panchayats have in the past pronounced orders to strangle, burn or hack the lovers to death for ‘violating’ the `strict caste-based traditions’.

Honour killing is clearly mentioned.
I haven't seen that a panchayat held and passed decision for killing.
Based on what's written in paper you just mixed that panchayat is giving decision to kill people. Media doesn't want a court of common man because they can blackmail politicians but person from panchayat are common men and they don't accept bribes so it is difficult for media to face them .They want to destroy this system by putting poisionous words in ears of youth.
Decision is all yours but all i ask is that atleast once in life see real panchayat.

jitendershooda
August 27th, 2009, 10:30 AM
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2009/20090827/haryana.htm#2
Deepak’s father has alleged that his son was beaten to death by Mana Ram, Sunil and Anil with sticks as they suspected Deepak’s affair with a girl of their family.

rakeshsehrawat
August 27th, 2009, 10:38 AM
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2009/20090827/haryana.htm#2
Deepak’s father has alleged that his son was beaten to death by Mana Ram, Sunil and Anil with sticks as they suspected Deepak’s affair with a girl of their family.

Sir ji
Isme panchayat kahan se aa gayee?

raka
August 27th, 2009, 02:25 PM
Heres' news from Deccan Herald.
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/21139/jatland-horrors.html
And, heres' an excerpt-
Not only the families, deeply hurt and enraged over being ‘betrayed’ by the boy or the girl, who fall in love and choose to marry against their wishes, but also the ‘all powerful’ caste panchayats perpetrate or abet ‘honour killings’.
The caste panchayats have in the past pronounced orders to strangle, burn or hack the lovers to death for ‘violating’ the `strict caste-based traditions’.
chhori tu isa dar kyu maan ri s is khaap ta , k baat kimme rool to na s bata diye le teri to tarafdaari karange khaap aalya aage ;)
jitender hooda bhai aagar is manaraam ki jagah aapa hote to kya karte???? is dipak ne gunthi pahrate k ?

annch
August 27th, 2009, 05:00 PM
Rakesh ji,
Thank you for your support, appreciate it.:)
Khaps can do a lot. I am just asking for what Khaps have done so far.
Regards,
Anju





chhori tu isa dar kyu maan ri s is khaap ta , k baat kimme rool to na s bata diye le teri to tarafdaari karange khaap aalya aage ;)
jitender hooda bhai aagar is manaraam ki jagah aapa hote to kya karte???? is dipak ne gunthi pahrate k ?

kapdal
August 27th, 2009, 05:31 PM
Honour killing is clearly mentioned.
I haven't seen that a panchayat held and passed decision for killing.
Based on what's written in paper you just mixed that panchayat is giving decision to kill people.

Rakesh, if you are saying that the newspaper report doesn't talk about panchyat giving decision to kill people, then it does. Excerpts:

- but also the ‘all powerful’ caste panchayats perpetrate or abet ‘honour killings’.
-The caste panchayats have in the past pronounced orders to strangle, burn or hack the lovers to death for ‘violating’ the `strict caste-based traditions’.

Having said that, I think this report is a shoddy piece of journalism. The journalist has no idea of what he is talking about. He has merely collected some sound bytes from people opposed to the traditional view point and built a narrative in black and white terms. In one para, he even jumps from Panchayat to Nitish Katara case! And to top it all, he has given it a provocative title, "Jatland horrors". Garbage level.

anilsinghd
August 27th, 2009, 05:42 PM
jitender hooda bhai aagar is manaraam ki jagah aapa hote to kya karte???? is dipak ne gunthi pahrate k ?


Sure enough killing someone is not the way to go.

A "love" / "affair " , "relationship" is of one person , it involves the girl as well , you can do N number of things to stop the affair!

kapdal
August 27th, 2009, 06:25 PM
Sure enough killing someone is not the way to go.

A "love" / "affair " , "relationship" is of one person , it involves the girl as well , you can do N number of things to stop the affair!

Humbey! Hum Jat se aur isse kesan mein mhaare dhore do hi choice ho se- ya to goothi pahraao ya susre ki ghitti daab do...

annch
August 27th, 2009, 06:32 PM
It may be garbage level, the sensational journalism, but can it fudge the stats.


Having said that, I think this report is a shoddy piece of journalism. The journalist has no idea of what he is talking about. He has merely collected some sound bytes from people opposed to the traditional view point and built a narrative in black and white terms. In one para, he even jumps from Panchayat to Nitish Katara case! And to top it all, he has given it a provocative title, "Jatland horrors". Garbage level.

kapdal
August 27th, 2009, 06:37 PM
chhori tu isa dar kyu maan ri s is khaap ta , k baat kimme rool to na s bata diye le teri to tarafdaari karange khaap aalya aage ;)
jitender hooda bhai aagar is manaraam ki jagah aapa hote to kya karte???? is dipak ne gunthi pahrate k ?

Raka sahab, aap itna likhan ki takeef manna liya karro. Agar aap blank post bhi daal doge ne, to bhi humne bera paat jaaga ki aap ke kehna chaah rahe ho. Matbal ki warna yeh dialoguebaazi baansi laagan lagegi...

kapdal
August 27th, 2009, 06:44 PM
It may be garbage level, the sensational journalism, but can it fudge the stats.

But of course it can. Why not? Anything to prove a point, as they say. And what stats are you talking about? The bit about 150 honour killings in Muzaffarnagar based on a "survey by a New Delhi-based organisation"? Is it some secret organization that he doesn't have a name? Or is there no organization? And how do you do a survey to ascertain killings? Who do you survey- dead people?

annch
August 27th, 2009, 06:49 PM
Seperate the wheat from the chaff, isn't that what we do with every news thats reported? We survey the alive to ascertain the dead.

But of course it can. Why not? Anything to prove a point, as they say. And what stats are you talking about? The bit about 150 honour killings in Muzaffarnagar based on a "survey by a New Delhi-based organisation"? Is it some secret organization that he doesn't have a name? Or is there no organization? And how do you do a survey to ascertain killings? Who do you survey- dead people?

raka
August 27th, 2009, 06:58 PM
Raka sahab, aap itna likhan ki takeef manna liya karro. Agar aap blank post bhi daal doge ne, to bhi humne bera paat jaaga ki aap ke kehna chaah rahe ho. Matbal ki warna yeh dialoguebaazi baansi laagan lagegi...
achha chhote bhai aage ta dhyaan rakhunga maine bera na tha mera ladla chhota samajhdar bhai bhi aade aawe s :)

kapdal
August 27th, 2009, 07:08 PM
Seperate the wheat from the chaff, isn't that what we do with every news thats reported? We survey the alive to ascertain the dead.

My understanding of a survey is that either you go to each village and ask everyone. Like a census is done, comprehensively. Which clearly won't have been done. Or you do a survey of a much smaller sample, find an average trend and assign it to the whole population. But this is not some "feature" or "charateristic" that you can find an average and extrapolate.

A serious research piece on crime would usually not take "facts" from surveys but from official crime figures (one may though apply adjustments to take into account police inefficiency). And even if any survey is used, there is a clear elaboration on what methodolgy was used. Forget the details, this guy doesn't even have a name on who did the survey.

The tone, tenor and quality of the article is totally suspect for me. I am not going to try and find diamonds in a coal mine where none exist. I am not disputing honor killings, but I am not going to jump to the other extreme and start believing articles that sensationalise them.

raka
August 27th, 2009, 07:14 PM
kapil tahra bhi karda kaam s jinne yo saang shuru karya tha wo saangi ja bhi liye aur thaam eb tahi aade darrruuu bajaan laag re so .....
le chhote bhai eb na bolu bas akhri baar je kar gya tha , eb aage ta tu a bar liye yo ( fill in the blanks ) meri taraf ta ----------------------;)

annch
August 27th, 2009, 07:40 PM
You may discount the article with questions on the tone, tenor and quality of the article, or the numbers quoted or the methodolgy followed to get these numbers. That still does not change the ground reality of role played by Khaps in "honor killings" if not by encouraging, then by "not discouraging".

My understanding of a survey is that either you go to each village and ask everyone. Like a census is done, comprehensively. Which clearly won't have been done. Or you do a survey of a much smaller sample, find an average trend and assign it to the whole population. But this is not some "feature" or "charateristic" that you can find an average and extrapolate.

A serious research piece on crime would usually not take "facts" from surveys but from official crime figures (one may though apply adjustments to take into account police inefficiency). And even if any survey is used, there is a clear elaboration on what methodolgy was used. Forget the details, this guy doesn't even have a name on who did the survey.

The tone, tenor and quality of the article is totally suspect for me. I am not going to try and find diamonds in a coal mine where none exist. I am not disputing honor killings, but I am not going to jump to the other extreme and start believing articles that sensationalise them.

kapdal
August 27th, 2009, 07:48 PM
You may discount the article with questions on the tone, tenor and quality of the article, or the numbers quoted or the methodolgy followed to get these numbers. That still does not change the ground reality of role played by Khaps in "honor killings" if not by encouraging, then by "not discouraging".

Agree on that. My stand, as explained in an earlier post, is not at all to give Khaps a clean chit. They are accountable for these murders as they are the ones who take the village society as their undisputable jurisdiction. But dodgy evidence/support only hurts one's case. Plus, there are significant costs of such shoddy journalism in terms of antagonising sentiments/spreading misinformation.

anilsinghd
August 27th, 2009, 08:00 PM
That still does not change the ground reality of role played by Khaps in "honor killings" if not by encouraging, then by "not discouraging".

Precisely the point that I wanted to make.

ravindra.singh
August 27th, 2009, 09:33 PM
It want to express my vies that Khap Panchayat are very well because it solves so many issues locally that we dont have to g oto courts and spend so much money on useless issues.

But there MUST be some limitations for these kind of panchayat decision. They DO NOT have rights to give death sentences (so called Honor Killings...). For this we have our constitution of India. So having this in mind, these panchayat should take any decision.

I do not support same gotra marriages at all but if someone is doing that, Khap Panchayat are not supposed to give them Death Sentence. This is completely immoral, and in that case it would support if some serious action is taken against these Khap Panchayat heads.

In Kadyan-Gehlot case, I would say that same rights must be for both side. We cannot have rights based on number of people living in a village....

drssrana2003
August 27th, 2009, 11:11 PM
The idea of justice in a plural society like ours in India is not a static cobcept. Individual liberty or freedom is nor was ever absolute. It is governed by our social regulatory institutions like the Khap Panchayats as far as social behaviour is concerned. The State has a vast apparatus in the form of laws and regulations. Even if the social institutions are not State sponsored they have regulated and guided the destiny of the social code through centuries.Rawls has said that Justice of just institutions that decide the basic structure of society is bound to be just. Individuals and their reactions are just in so fr as they conform to the demands of just institutions. Basic structure of society is the primary subject of justice

spdeshwal
August 28th, 2009, 08:13 AM
Sir,

I agree with your observation that justice in our society is not static but the evolution of 'khap Punchayat' is not dynamic either. The boundaries of just and justice couldn't be evolving in isolation of ever changing social environment.
I believe,the current controversy is also the result of 'khap Punchayat' not keeping pace with the dynamic society.
Again, the quote from Rawls is based on the assumption that these Institutions are just, hence can't do any injustice.Our Khap punchayats have failed the Litmus Test time and again.One khap member pronounced a decision as just when he was heading the khap Punchayat a few years back but making hue and cry when at the receiving end.
Sir, to me Khap punchayts can't be just and couldn't be saviour of social justice if representatives can't call a spade a spade.



With warmest regards

annch
August 28th, 2009, 08:35 AM
Sateypal ji,
Well said, Sir.

Sir,

I agree with your observation that justice in our society is not static but the evolution of 'khap Punchayat' is not dynamic either. The boundaries of just and justice couldn't be evolving in isolation of ever changing social environment.
I believe,the current controversy is also the result of 'khap Punchayat' not keeping pace with the dynamic society.
Again, the quote from Rawls is based on the assumption that these Institutions are just, hence can't do any injustice.Our Khap punchayats have failed the Litmus Test time and again.One khap member pronounced a decision as just when he was heading the khap Punchayat a few years back but making hue and cry when at the receiving end.
Sir, to me Khap punchayts can't be just and couldn't be saviour of social justice if representatives can't call a spade a spade.



With warmest regards

anilsinghd
August 28th, 2009, 03:23 PM
Sir,

I agree with your observation that justice in our society is not static but the evolution of 'khap Punchayat' is not dynamic either. The boundaries of just and justice couldn't be evolving in isolation of ever changing social environment.
I believe,the current controversy is also the result of 'khap Punchayat' not keeping pace with the dynamic society.
Again, the quote from Rawls is based on the assumption that these Institutions are just, hence can't do any injustice.Our Khap punchayats have failed the Litmus Test time and again.One khap member pronounced a decision as just when he was heading the khap Punchayat a few years back but making hue and cry when at the receiving end.
Sir, to me Khap punchayts can't be just and couldn't be saviour of social justice if representatives can't call a spade a spade.



With warmest regards

Totally in sync with that , as i have reiterated it often , tradition and culture and institutions are not something to demolish and then build new ones but they need to be worked upon with change of times. Same is the case with the Khap Panchayats i believe , there should be more youth participation , more women participation , a constant feffort to understand the issues of people , polls and feedbback mechanism to know what people want and how people want the solutions. :)

It cannot be the case that on one hand we talk about empowerment , education ,freedom and ideals and on the other impose authority on people at the same time.

malikdeepak1
August 28th, 2009, 03:38 PM
Totally in sync with that , as i have reiterated it often , tradition and culture and institutions are not something to demolish and then build new ones but they need to be worked upon with change of times. Same is the case with the Khap Panchayats i believe , there should be more youth participation , more women participation , a constant feffort to understand the issues of people , polls and feedbback mechanism to know what people want and how people want the solutions. :)

Govt at center has passed 50% reservation for women in Panchayats.
Still i wonder how the implementation of this reservation will go around:confused:
http://in.jagran.yahoo.com/news/national/politics/5_2_5738163.html

rsdalal
August 28th, 2009, 10:45 PM
Govt at center has passed 50% reservation for women in Panchayats.
Still i wonder how the implementation of this reservation will go around:confused:
http://in.jagran.yahoo.com/news/national/politics/5_2_5738163.html

Khap panchayats are not same as panchayats. Villege panchayats are part of Govt and Khap panchayats are not.
Khap panchayats are just social organization based on Gott and casts.

rakeshsehrawat
August 29th, 2009, 09:54 AM
Khap panchayats are not same as panchayats. Villege panchayats are part of Govt and Khap panchayats are not.
Khap panchayats are just social organization based on Gott and casts.
Ya baat samajh na aawe inke.
Ye sochte hain ki ye log election se chune jate hain aur ye log sarkar se paise lete hain. Media ki khilafat ke bavjood inke samajh na aawe media is panchayat ko khamkha ghasit raha hai. Khair in ne bhi patkan do paa. Waise bhi wo log ab in pachdo mein padna nahi chahte. kyonki logo ka bharosa court par jyada ho gaya hai panchayat ka fainsla sun-ne ko tayar nahi kyonki wahan jhuthe saboot gavah nahi chalte wahan sachai ki jit hoti hai aur fainsle keliye aapko vakilo ko paise nahi dene hote.

dskadyan
August 31st, 2009, 11:27 PM
You know what is the building block of panchayats are
1. Social Responsibility
2. Harmony
3. Bhai Chara

Lekin nangad(Nude) samaj cant understand that. And Killing killing kya laga rakhi hai. Haan agar panchayat Killing order de deti hai toh kya ho gaya. Ache kaam karne walo ko toh nahi de rahee?
toh Afjal ko Nobel Award dila do shanti ka. Woh bombay wala bhai court mein maje le raha hai. Hum bewkoofon ki tarah news padh rahe hai. and asking for Humanity.

In sab neh toh nangad badha diye samaj mein. Aur yeh sab hamako hi tang karenge.

Aur yeh eve teasing,rape, frauds increasing day by day. why we know our judicial system. and saath dene ke liye hum jaise hai. Kyon unko apne saath bitha lo. Ghar par invite karo Rapist ko?

Aur agar koi puche toh rapist ne kya jurm kar diya. Natural hai. where is the nature law ki both of the partner should be agree.

All these laws developed from this Panchayat sytem. Ab nangad banana hai toh mast hai. Sab panchayat band karwa dena. Aur Why family matters should be solved with in family inko bhi court me le jana.

sidchhikara
September 1st, 2009, 02:08 AM
You know what is the building block of panchayats are
1. Social Responsibility
2. Harmony
3. Bhai Chara

Lekin nangad(Nude) samaj cant understand that. And Killing killing kya laga rakhi hai. Haan agar panchayat Killing order de deti hai toh kya ho gaya. Ache kaam karne walo ko toh nahi de rahee?
toh Afjal ko Nobel Award dila do shanti ka. Woh bombay wala bhai court mein maje le raha hai. Hum bewkoofon ki tarah news padh rahe hai. and asking for Humanity.

In sab neh toh nangad badha diye samaj mein. Aur yeh sab hamako hi tang karenge.

Aur yeh eve teasing,rape, frauds increasing day by day. why we know our judicial system. and saath dene ke liye hum jaise hai. Kyon unko apne saath bitha lo. Ghar par invite karo Rapist ko?

Aur agar koi puche toh rapist ne kya jurm kar diya. Natural hai. where is the nature law ki both of the partner should be agree.

All these laws developed from this Panchayat sytem. Ab nangad banana hai toh mast hai. Sab panchayat band karwa dena. Aur Why family matters should be solved with in family inko bhi court me le jana.

Bhai ... yoh profile aala photu tanne Khaat Panchayat main baithe od ne khichwaya sai? Afghanistan mein vacation ghani sasti sein - ghoom aa - naa te ek kaam kar ude he reh jaa - Musalman ban ke - sirf naam badalna sei - lacchan te saare maujood sai.

annch
September 1st, 2009, 03:15 AM
If this post represents the words/thoughts/mentality/attitude/culture of a khap panchayat, if this is how a spokesperson of a Khap panchayat behaves, then this is the most convincing post AGAINST the Khaps.

You know what is the building block of panchayats are
1. Social Responsibility
2. Harmony
3. Bhai Chara

Lekin nangad(Nude) samaj cant understand that. And Killing killing kya laga rakhi hai. Haan agar panchayat Killing order de deti hai toh kya ho gaya. Ache kaam karne walo ko toh nahi de rahee?
toh Afjal ko Nobel Award dila do shanti ka. Woh bombay wala bhai court mein maje le raha hai. Hum bewkoofon ki tarah news padh rahe hai. and asking for Humanity.

In sab neh toh nangad badha diye samaj mein. Aur yeh sab hamako hi tang karenge.

Aur yeh eve teasing,rape, frauds increasing day by day. why we know our judicial system. and saath dene ke liye hum jaise hai. Kyon unko apne saath bitha lo. Ghar par invite karo Rapist ko?

Aur agar koi puche toh rapist ne kya jurm kar diya. Natural hai. where is the nature law ki both of the partner should be agree.

All these laws developed from this Panchayat sytem. Ab nangad banana hai toh mast hai. Sab panchayat band karwa dena. Aur Why family matters should be solved with in family inko bhi court me le jana.

malikdeepak1
September 1st, 2009, 10:25 AM
Khap panchayats are not same as panchayats. Villege panchayats are part of Govt and Khap panchayats are not.
Khap panchayats are just social organization based on Gott and casts.

I very well know this Sir. I just put out a thought on the involvement of women in panchayats and not Khap Panchayats(Plz go through my post again. 2 hi line h jyada nahi h, time nahi lagega ek bar fir najar marne me). Aur Khap panchayat me aurton ko saamil karne ki himmat nahi h in logo me. Ye to panchayat me hi shamil nahi karte.. Koi aurat sarpanch ban ja se to 95% cases me uska gharaala sare decision leve h. Wa to niri sign/gutha tekan tai ho se.
Je khap panchayat me aa gi to inki Chaudher pe aa banegi, ar ya baat sahen koni hove inpe.
Aur ye Khap panchayat kuch na karti samaj ne aage lyaan tai. Nire ghar paaden tai rah rhi se. YE khaap panchayat Bode aadmi pe e sher hoya kare. Kise thade ken aankh tha ke nahi dekh sakti.Aadmi maaren ka haq kise ne nahi h. I agree Gotr-vivah galat h, par uski saja Marna nahi h.

With due respect to you maine sirf Anil ki baat ka jwab diya tha, jo usne kaha tha ki MORE WOMEN PARTICIPATION chaiye!

PS :No offence to anyone.

Regards
Deepak

jitendershooda
September 1st, 2009, 11:38 AM
Sir ji
Isme panchayat kahan se aa gayee?

Bhai Rakesh, That's why I have put this link. Such decisions are personal ones.


jitender hooda bhai aagar is manaraam ki jagah aapa hote to kya karte???? is dipak ne gunthi pahrate k ?

Bhai Rakke, could you please tell me who is the culprit in that affair if that was there?
Only BOY?
Only Girl?
BOTH? (If BOTH then werent the girl's parents responsible somewhere for her upbringing?)

Yes, I may have supported the same in case of RAPE. But not in this case where both are involved with some indirect share of the families.

kapdal
September 8th, 2009, 08:55 PM
Sensationalization continues. There are 4 articles related to Khaps today on TOI's website. While I have no sympathy for the functioning of Khaps, I hate the way media is making a mockery of the issue by writing whatever crap they can imagine.

This was the worst one.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news/india/Pesticide-pills-for-wayward-girls/articleshow/4984365.cms

ROHTAK: Less than 100 km from Delhi, smooth roads take you to Sanghi, the village where Haryana chief minister Bhupinder Singh Hooda was born. There http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/thumb.cms?msid=4984368&width=300&resizemode=4 (javascript:openslideshownew('/slideshow/4984368.cms?imw=460','541','526')) http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/photo/4764554.cms (javascript:openslideshownew('/slideshow/4984368.cms?imw=460','541','526'))


Young girls are generally at the receiving end of khap 'justice'. (TOI Photo)
are pucca houses, cobbled streets, well-fed cattle, neat schools and sprawling green fields. It’s easy to be impressed by the colleges and professional institutes that dot the area.

But Sanghi, like most villages in this prosperous belt, has dark secrets to keep. Here, rape is casual, murder-by-pesticide of teenage daughters acceptable and it is routine to dispose of their bodies by burning them in cattle-carts. Here, young women are routinely threatened, abused and killed. Standard khap operating procedure?

In Sanghi, flush with development, khap rule has been the norm. The village women want the status quo to be maintained, uncertain of a life without khap decrees. “With mobile phones and television, milna-julna (interaction between the sexes) is too much. What can parents do except kill a daughter who disobeys?” says a local teacher defensively.

Girls who survive their mother’s womb are brought up as daughters of the village. Not just Sanghi’s daughters, but of 12 neighbouring villages, says a khap member. All 12 villages form the Khidwali Bara khap, a Jat territorial unit. It decrees that boys and girls within these 12 villages cannot marry. Interestingly, the entire onus of ‘siblinghood’ rests on the girl. She is the keeper of village honour. Exceptions may be made for a boy, if the khap decides, but a girl is never allowed to bend the rules. “If a girl married in her community’s villages, she will be in purdah in her own house. How can we allow that?” asks middle-aged Bedo.

The 10 to 15 men who rule a khap derive their power from being fatwa-issuing ‘samajik karyakarta’ (social workers). They settle disputes out of court, play matchmaker and assert their control by frowning on relationships between girls and boys.

In keeping with khap rules, older villagers do their best to keep the sexes apart. Last year, the senior secondary government school was forced to become single-sex with girls attending in the morning and boys in the afternoon. But such measures have limited impact, say villagers. “Yeh mobile sabko bigaad rahein hain,” says Bedo. “Kabhi kuan pe milenge, khet mein, kabhi ghar mein (The cellphone is corrupting the young who keep looking for ways to meet),” complains Ompati, a 50-plus housewife.

Intimacy is not a khap-level issue. Relationships are kosher so long as they’re casual flings, but dreams of marriage can spell death for the girl.

Vidya, who teaches at a government school in Sanghi, says she has had students who died in mysterious circumstances. “We are only told so-and-so is dead,” she says. The physical trainer in her school adds, “Kaaran koi nai batata (No one gives reasons).” On average, 10 to 12 healthy girls die every year, locals reckon, but there are no reliable figures.

Generally, it’s the parents or father-brother duos who kill ‘wayward’ girls. A sympathetic mother may plead with a daughter to take the goli herself. A protesting daughter may be force-fed a pesticide pill, the preferred mode. The other route is death by hanging, all the better to ‘show’ it as suicide. No police, no complaint, no records. “Yahan izzatdar woh hain jo ladki ko marte hain (Those who kill their girls are respected here),” says another teacher.

If a couple runs away, the women in their families run the risk of being raped, gang-raped, and boycotted. At times, khaps also ‘fine’ the families lakhs of rupees. For the locals, that is par for the course. “What else can be done?” asks an old woman.

Fearing their daughters would go astray, many parents marry them off early. In the government senior secondary school, two Class IX students just got married, some others are engaged. The married ones stay with their parents and aren’t allowed to speak to their husbands, also at school in other villages. “His name is Sonu and he’s in plus 2,” says Poonam of the youth she married in July. They hope to meet during vacations.

For their part, the “keepers of honour” have unquestioning faith in the khap. The only dirty word for the women here is ‘adhikar’. “Adhikar ke upeksha se ghar toot te hain (Asking for rights leads to broken homes),” says schoolteacher Kanta. But there is change, she insists. Her family can at last visit her. That’s adhikar enough for her.
In the last 10 years, the khap’s influence as the moral police has only grown. But Sanghi sleeps easy. Even when its daughters are being put to sleep.
*************

The other links:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news/india/Only-whores-choose-their-partners/articleshow/4984378.cms
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news/india/Medieval-justice-just-50km-from-Delhi/articleshow/4984351.cms
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news/india/Khap-panchayats-seek-legal-claws/articleshow/4984423.cms

kapdal
September 8th, 2009, 09:03 PM
I put a comment (reproduced below) addressed to the journalist on the above link, criticising her piece. While there are 52 comments on the link associated with Tikait, many of them highly critical of Tikait (rightly so in my opinion), my comment has not been published yet. Let's see how much TOI believes in freedom of speech and expression. This was my letter:

Dear Ms Sengupta,

Do you call this journalism? I think you may as well have published the story in "Rochak Kahaniyan". From what you have written, it is apparent that rape and murders are "casual" and "routine" (The quoted words used by you in the same context) in the Jat belt. Indluging in rape and murder seems to be the favorite hobby of these villagers. Did you actually visit the village? Guess when they can't spare their own women, an outsider like you (an emanicipated, "modern" woman) would have been just too likely to get raped/murdered. No? I think you should write (sorry, invent!) these stories from the confines of your comfortable office. Since what you have to write is already pretty much pre-decided, why bother with the risk of visiting? You can get the customary photo from the archives.

While there is no honour in killing (and there is no denying that there have been honour killings), the reality is far from what you are trying to present here. So many cases of rapes, murders, hangings, pesticide pills; and you couldn't mention ONE SPECIFIC CASE? Rather than the "routine" death of the "10-12" females, what seems more mysterious to me is their very existence- if they existed in real, I wonder how a talented journalist like you couldn't delve deeper into ONE SPECIFIC CASE?

People like you, who want to sensationalize everything without understanding anything, are a part of the problem. No social evil (and honour killings for whatever reason are a social evil) has ever been rooted out by painting a negative picture of the people who believe in it. In your case, you don't even understand the difference between social custom and social evil. When you are befuddled by the "complicated logic" (Quoting your friend Divya A from a piece she has done on Dharana) of a social custom, you call it social evil. You effortlessly switch from one to the other using your vivid imagination to fill in the huge gaps of logic. Shame on you and your colleagues who are sensationalizing a sensitive topic to win your own little rat races.

With warm regards,
Kapil Dalal

sunillathwal
September 8th, 2009, 09:52 PM
Sensationalization continues. There are 4 articles related to Khaps today on TOI's website. While I have no sympathy for the functioning of Khaps, I hate the way media is making a mockery of the issue by writing whatever crap they can imagine.

This was the worst one.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news/india/Pesticide-pills-for-wayward-girls/articleshow/4984365.cms



These articles were crap at its best. reporter had no clue what (s)he is talking about. :(
Here at Jatland, some members are arguing about the role of panchayats in honor killing, TOI has gone one step ahead: Women are ordered to be gang raped !! :mad:
Worst thing is: they are highlighting the JAT. :mad:

after reading the full report, i was literally shocked. Anyone who is not from NCR region will precept that Haryana/UP/NCR are worse than Afghanistan!!

This pathetic report claim that women are treated badly, like a live-stock in JAt belt. True, there are girl-foetcide and some prejudices against girl (and it is not just haryana or up, it is through out the country) BUT to this extent :(
i wonder if reporter bothered to see how many graduates girl are there even in villages!!

No wonder, even some Jatland memebrs are clueless about the role/decisions of panchayats and the ground realities. Now i know, for sure, why some members are so opposed to panchayats.

Svikas
September 8th, 2009, 10:11 PM
Sensationalization continues. There are 4 articles related to Khaps today on TOI's website. While I have no sympathy for the functioning of Khaps, I hate the way media is making a mockery of the issue by writing whatever crap they can imagine.
I have similar thoughts about this smear job on khaps done by ToI. What these jokers have done is, pre-judged that khaps are 'evil', 'medieval' and 'backward' and proceeded to do a write up with this prejudiced view. If one uses their clever style of argument and reasoning even our judicial system would come out as outdated, evil and archaic but this kind of vitriol is reserved for us, 'medieval fools'. It is infuriating and blood boils reading this cr*p.

Kapil, rarely does ToI publishes letters critical of itself, so bro, don't your hold your breath on this one. Another thing, freedom of speech and expression is what we, backward fools, have to give to our 'modern' messiahs and it is these ToI buggers who'll trample freedom of speech and expression at the first chance they get (moderate comments which are not to their liking or not publish letters which go against their articles). Is their some sort of watchdog/ombudsman for these media clowns where one can complain? No point in writing to these pathetic fools. There has to be some sort of neutrality/objectivity which is obvoiusly not ToI's strong suit when they paint khaps as some sort of mafia who orders rapes/executions/abductions with out giving any evidence.

kapdal
September 8th, 2009, 10:12 PM
No wonder, even some Jatland memebrs are clueless about the role/decisions of panchayats and the ground realities. Now i know, for sure, why some members are so opposed to panchayats.

Sunil, while I agree that these articles are crap, it would be wrong to assume that members speaking against the role/decisions of panchayats are unaware of the ground realities or are talking crap themselves. Media is obviously sensationalizing the issue and printing rubbish. But it is a fact that honour killings have taken place. What justifies that?

It is debatable what role Khaps have played in the same, but there is no denying that they have a role to play given the authority they command/exercise on social issues. How can they turn a blind eye when someone is dishing out his justice in their jurisdiction? They may not have ordered the killings but they have been passive supporters of the same. Their case on social customs would have been much stronger had they condemned the killings and taken action against the killers.

sidchhikara
September 8th, 2009, 10:42 PM
But Sanghi, like most villages in this prosperous belt, has dark secrets to keep. Here, rape is casual, murder-by-pesticide of teenage daughters acceptable and it is routine to dispose of their bodies by burning them in cattle-carts. Here, young women are routinely threatened, abused and killed. Standard khap operating procedure?

Nandita Sengupta - who wrote this - looks like a Barkha Dutt wannabe. Complete with shrillness, shrieks, in-objectivity, generalizations, lazy fact-less writing. Indian journalism has such a long way to go - the sad part is they have not even started on that path.
Here is some dirt on her courtesy google - I am sure you can find more.
http://sporadicblogger.wordpress.com/2007/07/27/ht-platform-nandita-sengupta/



“With mobile phones and television, milna-julna (interaction between the sexes) is too much. What can parents do except kill a daughter who disobeys?” says a local teacher defensively.



Non sequitur in a darkly comical way.

kapdal
September 8th, 2009, 10:52 PM
Nandita Sengupta - who wrote this - looks like a Barkha Dutt wannabe. Complete with shrillness, shrieks, in-objectivity, generalizations, lazy fact-less writing. Indian journalism has such a long way to go - the sad part is they have not even started on that path.
Here is some dirt on her courtesy google - I am sure you can find more.
http://sporadicblogger.wordpress.com/2007/07/27/ht-platform-nandita-sengupta/



Non sequitur in a darkly comical way.

Bhai, yeh link to block ho gaya meri company ke server pe. Can you please copy paste the dirt?

anilsinghd
September 8th, 2009, 11:19 PM
At your service Sir! :)



Bhai, yeh link to block ho gaya meri company ke server pe. Can you please copy paste the dirt?



Posted by sporadicblogger in Life (http://en.wordpress.com/tag/life/), Reviews/Rants (http://en.wordpress.com/tag/reviewsrants/), contemporary (http://en.wordpress.com/tag/contemporary/).
trackback (http://sporadicblogger.wordpress.com/2007/07/27/ht-platform-nandita-sengupta/trackback/)
Sex Education begins at home, she says. The lady feels that sex education in schools should be ‘put on hold for the moment’
Sample her gems-
‘In December 2004, two teenagers showed us why introducing sex education in Indian schools is asking for trouble’. She was, ofcourse, referring to the infamous MMS case. Note the keywords: teenagers, INDIAN SCHOOLS, trouble…
She follows that up by contradicting herself by stating in the last sentence of the rubbish piece that- ‘In school, ’sex education’ with all its overwhelming relevance (????!!!) is best left alone. …The same way that teaching youngsters about religion does not lead to fundamentalism, telling them about sex does not lead to irresponsible behaviour(my italics).’
The woman is daft. I wonder how she got herself published in the edit page. She tries to make a case but her ‘arguments’ are pathetic at best. At one point she attempts to be a great debater and says that ‘Sadly, the aguments for sex education (her italics) are even more hackneyed than those against it-the opponents at least known for thei dogmatic approach’. Er, yeah. Right. Ofcourse, she doesn’t go on to show HOW the arguments are ’sadly’ more hackneyed. She tries, though. Here, THIS is why she believes it is more ‘hackneyed’-
‘The ‘progressive’ (she puts the word within ‘ ‘) reasoning behind talking about sex is to make minors aware of AIDS so that they can be cautious about their sexual behaviour. It is an unfortunate generation for which sex and talking about sex will be associated with a disease and its entailing burden’.
This sentence astounded me. I mean, what does the idiot want? The world to bury its head under the sand and look the other way? Because, well,er,*cough cough*, AIDS is a burgeoning threat in todays world!! Lets not talk about safe sex because the young shouldn’t forever associate it with yucky disease...
Stupid woman.
Sex education in schools is a must. Most parents feel uncomfortable discussion sex and sexuality with their children. There are children as old as 14-15 (and this is only in my experience…I’m sure the figures an be more horrifying) who do not know what a condom is, who do not know how one becomes pregnant, and that oral sex can transmit the virus.
The point is children WILL find out about dirty dirty sex. (They aren’t blind, and we must credit them with the bare minimum of intelligence. ) Shouldn’t they then be given the correct information about it?
This strange author(her, not me) can choose to live in her own blessed world, but the point is, yes, it would be GREAT if sex education started at home, but in all likelihood, this won’t happen soon. And EVEN if it did, it needs to be supplemented at school. After all, just because they are Parents, it does not mean they have all the information.

jitender_singh
September 9th, 2009, 01:06 AM
all this crap is not only propogate through media but also through satellite channels. there is one serial called ' naa aana is des laado' it shows jats always pressurise their bahus and daughters and owmen in thier houses always living under threat and injustice.

mere khyal se ladkiyan ki sabs ejyaada durgatee toh rajput karte hain.. aise case sabse jyaada rajasthan main milenge rajput communities main jahan ladki ko pada hote hi jeher mila doodh de dete the..

I think female ka status itna kharab nahe ehai jaaton main jitna yeh media show karta hai..

bazardparveen
September 9th, 2009, 01:34 AM
It is just a media crap. Media is presenting khap panchayat like Taliban of India. In TOI article reporter is using word Honor Killing....how a killing can be honor? It's rubbish. When media will realize their social responsibility?

annch
September 9th, 2009, 03:07 AM
The reports in the news are definitely wrong. Women are very well respected in our community.I have not heard of any girl being killed by poisoning or any other way. They may die of sudden stomach aches, mysterious fevers that result in a quick death and a quicker funeral.
Even if girl/couple are being killed, all this is minor collateral damage in maintaining our superior gene pool and culture.Do Khaps allow deviants to this? Only in exceptional cases like, when an unsuitable boy fails to get an equally unsuitable bride within the community, then that boy is ok to buy a bride for himself from nepal/bihar etc etc.

amritkharb
September 9th, 2009, 03:48 AM
The reports in the news are definitely wrong. Women are very well respected in our community.I have not heard of any girl being killed by poisoning or any other way. They may die of sudden stomach aches, mysterious fevers that result in a quick death and a quicker funeral.
Even if girl/couple are being killed, all this is minor collateral damage in maintaining our superior gene pool and culture.Do Khaps allow deviants to this? Only in exceptional cases like, when an unsuitable boy fails to get an equally unsuitable bride within the community, then that boy is ok to buy a bride for himself from nepal/bihar etc etc.

Are you saying article is correct or kya aap aur kuch kah rahe haeen?:confused:

sunillathwal
September 9th, 2009, 04:17 AM
Sunil, while I agree that these articles are crap, it would be wrong to assume that members speaking against the role/decisions of panchayats are unaware of the ground realities or are talking crap themselves. Media is obviously sensationalizing the issue and printing rubbish.

Agreed. i am not a blind supporter of these Khaps either. After reading few posts in this thread, i got the impression that some members believe that panchayats are a rotten system meant only for ordering honor killing (directly or indirectly) nothing else; no other credentials,!! But truth is panchayats do play constructive roles in many issues (petty fights to monetary issues to huge land disputes). Nobody takes note of that. We should give them their due credit.
'What else panchayats can/should do' is already discussed in thread and i agree with that. Khap panchayats should evolve with time BUT then this responsibilty lies on the youth, they should take some initiative.. i am sure Panchayat will (atleast) listen to their ideas.




But it is a fact that honour killings have taken place. What justifies that?
It is debatable what role Khaps have played in the same, but there is no denying that they have a role to play given the authority they command/exercise on social issues. How can they turn a blind eye when someone is dishing out his justice in their jurisdiction? They may not have ordered the killings but they have been passive supporters of the same. Their case on social customs would have been much stronger had they condemned the killings and taken action against the killers.

Partly agree. Let us not forget, there are many (i would say majority of) incidents where honor killing takes place without anybody else (other than the family) knowing it.. Padosiyon ko bhi agle din pata chalta hai. in many cases even the exact reason of the killing remains a mystery. :)

Do you really think, its only the fear of Panchayats that responsible for honor killing??
i don't think so... it is generally parents and/or sibling who do it for their so called 'honor' in society!! If panchayats are the culprit of not condemning these killings so is every other single fabric of society.. Friends, relatives... no??

Believe it or not, Panchayats or Khap panchayats are mostly involved in issues that causes friction between two large set of ppl (pana, villages, clan etc.). Again the whole question is, should we cease our tradition of not marrying into 'bhaai-chara' and all?? if one think it should continue, then there is no other way but the social-boycott of such couples!!

they have been passive supporters of the same (honor killing).

The reasons for such killings is either incestuous or same village affair. period.
Can panchayats say it is okey to be in such relationships?? will u say so??

Kapil, what will u suggest to stop honor killing??

Should panchayats do the counselling of all adolescent in villages??

should they start asking the postmortem reports of any adolescent/adult died in village to ascertain if this was a honor killing? :)

Again don't take me wrong, m not a supporter of honor killing but to put blame on panchayat is wrong. Role of panchayat is also limited.

If u ask me: parents are the sole culprit here, they are responsible for their son/daughter' wrong doings, and then they kill 'them' to keep their 'honor' intact.

Another thing: Lets us assume that some how panchayats start 'actively' condemning the 'honor killing. Will it stop??
I don't think it will stop. i even doubt if the number will come down just because panchayats say it is wrong.
There are death penalty and other punishments for murder, rap etc in Indian penal code, but still these things are happening. (i know lame excuse but Truth is lame at times).

More than panchayats it is the individuals who are responsible for such acts, they need to 'grow up' and take care of their wards!!

amritkharb
September 9th, 2009, 04:58 AM
Even CM son said something like this: ki these honor killings were private local matter.
Ho rahe hongi aise ghatnayeen aur yeh panchayat waale chupa rahe haeen honge.
But this writer is a bengali and she is exaggerating and bengali do not like jats and that is what I have heard. so we must not overlook the ethnicity of the writer in question. let us do a write up on kolkatta black hole or find something of that sort in bengali psyche.
Sen=bengali surname
ADD gupta a north Indian Baniya to Sen and it becomes = Sengupta!
Thus Sengupta=Bengali Baniya!

ravichaudhary
September 9th, 2009, 07:03 AM
Even CM son said something like this: ki these honor killings were private local matter.
Ho rahe hongi aise ghatnayeen aur yeh panchayat waale chupa rahe haeen honge.
But this writer is a bengali and she is exaggerating and bengali do not like jats and that is what I have heard. so we must not overlook the ethnicity of the writer in question. let us do a write up on kolkatta black hole or find something of that sort in bengali psyche.
Sen=bengali surname
ADD gupta a north Indian Baniya to Sen and it becomes = Sengupta!
Thus Sengupta=Bengali Baniya!

Mr. Kharab

I hope I do not offend you.


Your well intentioned but hot headed response , is what we wish to avoid.

We wish to engage with the Senguptas and Neha Dixits of the world, and expose them, make them accountable for what they write.

We cannot do that by joining them in mud slinging.

If you wish to help, help organize responses, using facts and logic.

We wish to organize media committees, organize our well wishers in the media. we have plenty of Jats in th media. it is time we encourage them to come forward under one banner.

No one will support killing. There is No honour in it.

We have to find a way that satisfies the community tradition, and also lets the tradition adapt to changing times.

I do not have any obvious solutions, no magic bullets.

We all have to contribute, men , women, old and young.

Take care


Ravi Chaudhary

jitendershooda
September 9th, 2009, 10:57 AM
It is debatable what role Khaps have played in the same, but there is no denying that they have a role to play given the authority they command/exercise on social issues. How can they turn a blind eye when someone is dishing out his justice in their jurisdiction? They may not have ordered the killings but they have been passive supporters of the same. Their case on social customs would have been much stronger had they condemned the killings and taken action against the killers.

So we all are, isnt?

I wish to inform you that
Narender Kharb, Retd Chief Justice Tewatia Ji, SS Rana, Mehar Singh Dahiya, Ravi Ji (By his paper), Comandt Hawa Singh Sangwan Ji, Bharti Sindhu etc. have made an effort to bridge the gap between Media, Khaps and Intellects on 30th August at SurajMal Institute delhi. I will only say at the moment that it was a great initiative altogether.

It is true that most of the reports in media are 'invented' as per Kapil Dalal. But we can counter them by providing logical details. I dont think anybody is stopping us to get the real details of Khaps history and functioning posted in newspapers. Like in yesterdays TOI they have mentioned these Khaps were started in 14th century. We can get a paper ready with Khaps history, start, their functioning, their acheivements, resist they provided to mugals and british, involvement of ladies they had (36 thousand ladies were present in a panchayat during HarshVardhna's time - Ravi ji may provide full details), when ladies participation declined (due to the threat to their asmita from moguls), Present scenerio and points of revival.

Present day also 80% of the panchayats have not been reported in media and that is the reason that they are painted with wrong colors. If all of the cases are under media coverage the modern society will also praise their efforts. This can be acheived if we make Khaps/villagers/media close to each other. Here I think we people can play an important role.

I willnot deny that there are lots and lots of improvement scope there but overall they are doing a lot good works even today. Will compile and post an answer to Kapil and Anju's query - what good they are doing or have done recently, soon.

bharti
September 9th, 2009, 11:12 AM
Dear fellow members,
It was Koyal,my 11 yr old daughter, who announced yesterday morning: Aaj to Khaps ke baare mein bahut aaya hua hai newspaper mein!
She was referring to the TOI links Kapil has given. She did not give me the newspaper till she read all that was written about Jats and Khaps on Page 1, 11 and the complete page 15.Seems TOI had dedicated yesterday's edition to Jats.
At the end she just said: Why should these people interfere with our customs and traditions?(probably because she is aware of the Gotra system which Bengalis and Mallus fail to understand.)

Coming to the article. I knew it was coming since the day I attended the Seminar organised By Col MS Dahiya(retd), at Maharaja Surajmal Institute, Janakpuri,ND on 30Aug'09.
One of the journalists' present there had told that TOI is soon coming out with a Big Story on Khaps.
What is driving their so much interest in this, I fail to understand.:confused:

Like everyone here, I too was curious about these Khaps and went to attend the Khap Panchayat at Jhajjar on 2 Aug while the Dharana Issue was at its peak( it was solved in the next Sarv Khap Panchayat on 9 Aug).
Though there was no other woman present except for one covering the event, I was never made to feel out of place.
The Khap Heads command respect because of their wise words and the experience they carry which is reflected in their speech.
Then suddenly I too was invited to speak. Do you not see the change taking place in Khaps? Else why would they want to hear the views of a woman?
My experience was overall very good.

And between all this discussion on serious issue an appeal was made to all to not go without having food! Simple food- roti-sabji,dal-chawal,raita and halwa.The warmth with which it was served would cool down tempers of anyone.
It is with this level head that decisions are taken and that too after hearing the views of all. Not in haste to just finish off the burden of cases but also not taking years as it often happens in the courts.
At least I am not against the Khaps.

These days there are a lot of Lok Adalats being conducted by the Courts. The government is encouraging these.
Recently, the Delhi Legal Services and Delhi Police has come up with lots of ads on Radio about Mediation Centres where family disputes are solved/both parties counselled/ court procedures avoided to solve matters peacefully and without burdening the courts.
Have the Khaps not been doing the same work since times immemorial?

There were various examples given during the Seminar at Surajmal Ins. by representatives of some Khaps where a number of cases were solved. One where as many as 20-25 murders had taken place between families and Khaps had succeeded in bringing peace. I think it was Jharonth.(Mr Narender Kharb and Mr Jitender Hooda would be able to give the exact details.)

Probably the Khaps are not media-savvy and do not know Image-Building concepts. I had requested them to invite the media whenever they were solving some matters so that they do not come to light only when some odd couple is murdered and the Khaps projected as Taliban issuing Fatwas.

Life is different in rural areas.All urban thoughts and systems should not be forced on them. Not that people are not ready for change.But it should suit them.
The younger generation with exposure to the outside world should give them ideas to keep pace with changes happening outside.
It is heartening to see people like Kapil,Sid,Anjoo,Meera,Sunil,Anil and many others here concerned about such issues pertaining to our community and society as whole.

regards,
bharti.

yudhvirmor
September 9th, 2009, 11:22 AM
Dear fellow members,
It was Koyal,my 11 yr old daughter, who announced yesterday morning: Aaj to Khaps ke baare mein bahut aaya hua hai newspaper mein!
She was referring to the TOI links Kapil has given. She did not give me the newspaper till she read all that was written about Jats and Khaps on Page 1, 11 and the complete page 15.Seems TOI had dedicated yesterday's edition to Jats.
At the end she just said: Why should these people interfere with our customs and traditions?(probably because she is aware of the Gotra system which Bengalis and Mallus fail to understand.)

Coming to the article. I knew it was coming since the day I attended the Seminar organised By Col MS Dahiya(retd), at Maharaja Surajmal Institute, Janakpuri,ND on 30Aug'09.
One of the journalists' present there had told that TOI is soon coming out with a Big Story on Khaps.
What is driving their so much interest in this, I fail to understand.:confused:

Like everyone here, I too was curious about these Khaps and went to attend the Khap Panchayat at Jhajjar on 2 Aug while the Dharana Issue was at its peak( it was solved in the next Sarv Khap Panchayat on 9 Aug).
Though there was no other woman present except for one covering the event, I was never made to feel out of place.
The Khap Heads command respect because of their wise words and the experience they carry which is reflected in their speech.
Then suddenly I too was invited to speak. Do you not see the change taking place in Khaps? Else why would they want to hear the views of a woman?
My experience was overall very good.

And between all this discussion on serious issue an appeal was made to all to not go without having food! Simple food- roti-sabji,dal-chawal,raita and halwa.The warmth with which it was served would cool down tempers of anyone.
It is with this level head that decisions are taken and that too after hearing the views of all. Not in haste to just finish off the burden of cases but also not taking years as it often happens in the courts.
At least I am not against the Khaps.

These days there are a lot of Lok Adalats being conducted by the Courts. The government is encouraging these.
Recently, the Delhi Legal Services and Delhi Police has come up with lots of ads on Radio about Mediation Centres where family disputes are solved/both parties counselled/ court procedures avoided to solve matters peacefully and without burdening the courts.
Have the Khaps not been doing the same work since times immemorial?

There were various examples given during the Seminar at Surajmal Ins. by representatives of some Khaps where a number of cases were solved. One where as many as 20-25 murders had taken place between families and Khaps had succeeded in bringing peace. I think it was Jharonth.(Mr Narender Kharb and Mr Jitender Hooda would be able to give the exact details.)

Probably the Khaps are not media-savvy and do not know Image-Building concepts. I had requested them to invite the media whenever they were solving some matters so that they do not come to light only when some odd couple is murdered and the Khaps projected as Taliban issuing Fatwas.

Life is different in rural areas.All urban thoughts and systems should not be forced on them. Not that people are not ready for change.But it should suit them.
The younger generation with exposure to the outside world should give them ideas to keep pace with changes happening outside.
It is heartening to see people like Kapil,Sid,Anjoo,Meera,Sunil,Anil and many others here concerned about such issues pertaining to our community and society as whole.

regards,
bharti.

I think this is the truth.. Till date, No media house is able to bring some video footage or some written documents that says "Khap directed couple's family to kill them" Though I have never attended any Panchyat, I think people who speak their also have kind of inteligence to solve issues amicably. Majority of the times, Khap Panchayt asks couple to live out of village and reason is simple.. They don't want to setup wrong examples in village. Even our civil adminstartion does the same thing "Tadi Par"
Ask some unsocial element to stay out of district...

Samarkadian
September 9th, 2009, 11:23 AM
It is reactionary to give claification to spineless journalism. Does that particular journalist hold any qualification in social science, anthropology?

Any official press briefing by office bearers of khap on those articles? No..Why?

Though it an issue to encash upon by khaps. Those 4 articles shall be multiplied.

rakeshsehrawat
September 9th, 2009, 11:54 AM
Media ka kaam dukandaar aala haai. Dukan wala ye nahi dekhta ki uska product expire ho chuka hai aur kisi ko nuksaan bhi pahuncha sakta hai. Same media wale aaj sabse bade terrorist bane baithe hain inki khabar aur baat sunke aadmi ghar se nikalna band kar de. Inko har seedhi baat ko controversial karne ka gur aata hai.
ek seedha sa example hai
"maaro mat jane do"
"maaro, mat jane do" ya "maro mat, jane do"
ab siraf coma ki baat hai ki wo kahan lagana hai aur ye coma hamesha controversy create karne wali jagah lagate hain.
Choice is all yours you want to follow your culture or not.

anilsinghd
September 9th, 2009, 04:16 PM
Life is different in rural areas.All urban thoughts and systems should not be forced on them. Not that people are not ready for change.But it should suit them.
The younger generation with exposure to the outside world should give them ideas to keep pace with changes happening outside.

regards,
bharti.


Thanks Bharti ji , Indeed a good insight into things from your post.

I have repeated this N number of times that "traditions , procedures and processes , institutions and culture" are things that need to be built on and evolve with time. Precisely the reason that Khap Panchayats should evolve with time. And not only evolve but have a futuristic attitude and a forward looking approach.

Totally appreciate the step by yourself and other members of the forum (mentioned in your post) of the seminar and trying to bridge the gap. Happy to share thoughts and views if needed.


Indeed the right way to go. :)


Regards,
Anil

kapdal
September 9th, 2009, 05:45 PM
Agreed. i am not a blind supporter of these Khaps either. After reading few posts in this thread, i got the impression that some members believe that panchayats are a rotten system meant only for ordering honor killing (directly or indirectly) nothing else; no other credentials,!! But truth is panchayats do play constructive roles in many issues (petty fights to monetary issues to huge land disputes). Nobody takes note of that. We should give them their due credit.


Agreed. Painting them in black as out and out villains is as big a folly as painting them in white as out and out heroes (which is also done on the same forum). Every society has its social organizations which are conservative/traditionalist yet important to protect indigenous culture/traditions. West has a variety of churches catering to a variety of people. In India itself, there is SGPC for Sikhs, Church for Christians, AIMPLB for Muslims and various other societies for Parsis, South Indians, etc. But the success/failure of a social organization is dependent on how flexible it is to evolve according to changing times. Unfortunately, in my opinion, Khaps have failed to deal with the issue of honour killings in an appropriate way.



Partly agree. Let us not forget, there are many (i would say majority of) incidents where honor killing takes place without anybody else (other than the family) knowing it.. Padosiyon ko bhi agle din pata chalta hai. in many cases even the exact reason of the killing remains a mystery. :)

If panchayats are the culprit of not condemning these killings so is every other single fabric of society.. Friends, relatives... no??

If u ask me: parents are the sole culprit here, they are responsible for their son/daughter' wrong doings, and then they kill 'them' to keep their 'honor' intact.


This is what I don't agree to. Khaps can't declare themselves as the authority in one case and then raise their hands in helplessness saying "What can we do?" in another case; both cases belonging to similar jurisdiction. Similarly, how can Khap argue that they don't have a role to play when the relatives are indulging in honor killings. By the same logic, they shouldn't have a role when the relatives are blessing a marriage (like in Dharana).

I will give a different example, which has an anology here, but we can deal with it without emotions. Let's say a thief, Chor robs a person, Imandar. Pancham claims to be the arbiter of justice and is also accepted as same by the general society. So Pancham takes some punitive action against Chor as per the accepted norms. Now Imandar thinks that is not enough and goes ahead and cuts off Chor's hands and blinds him. There would always be Junta (the public) and the Bahubalis (the powerful) who would say Chor was a wretched person and Imandar was a hero for teaching a lesson to him. But what should Pancham do? Can he say that I gave my judgment on Chor and I am helpless if Imandar felt so strongly about it to punish Chor so severely on his own? Pancham may be right as per the Junta and the Bahubalis, but he is not being just and he loses the moral authority. If Pancham is the authority and a fair/just one at that, then he has to punish Imandar as well for the crime he has committed, to the best of his capacity.

You have raised valid operational points (that I'll attempt to answer) on what Khaps can actually do or if whatever they do would be effective or not. But my main point is on principles, which are paramount in matters of justice. A judiciary (and Khaps claim to be one with centuries of experience) can't pick and choose cases that it wants to pass judgments on. It has to look (Atleast attempt!) at all the issues that are there in its jurisdiction; fairly and justly.

Now coming to the operational part, probably there is not much that Khaps can do, since they don't have a defined role/responsibility in the Indian state (Note that the same applies in cases of gotra marriages or land disputes, etc.). Certainly, they can't do an investigation with post-mortems, etc. What they do have, or atleast claim to have, is the moral authority. And they must exercise it by not only condemning the killings unconditionally, but also taking action against the accused by imposing fines or social penalties (gaon nikala ya hukka paani band). I don't think the identity of the accused is that big a secret inside a village when the crimes happen in public view or when the accused come and proclaim their deeds publicly on TV. Certainly, Khaps may not be able to take action in all cases for lack of information. But, problem right now is that they have not taken action in a single case of honor killing. There is a big problem with a judiciary that passively accepts the vigilante justice being given out in its jurisdiction by the Junta and the Bahubalis. This is what Khaps have been doing. The point is not about shifting the blame from parents to Khaps. It is about whether Khaps are fulfilling the responsibility they have proclaimed as theirs.

Eventually, it is upto the state to prosecute the accused as per the Indian law. The only constructive role that Khaps can play in the process is to come down as hardly (if not more) on those guilty of honor killings, as it does on those guilty of same gotra marriages.



The reasons for such killings is either incestuous or same village affair. period.
Can panchayats say it is okey to be in such relationships?? will u say so??


But two wrongs don't make a right, my friend. Khaps don't have to give a green light to same gotra/village marriage if it rules against the honor killings. It doesn't have to choose one of the two, it can reject both.

PS: I would accept the gotra system as our own tradition. But one must be careful with the usual justifications given for it (why bother with justifications for traditions in the first place?). I think incestous would be a wrong word to choose for 2 unrelated people just sharing the same gotra.



Another thing: Lets us assume that some how panchayats start 'actively' condemning the 'honor killing. Will it stop??
I don't think it will stop. i even doubt if the number will come down just because panchayats say it is wrong.
There are death penalty and other punishments for murder, rap etc in Indian penal code, but still these things are happening. (i know lame excuse but Truth is lame at times).


I can use the same logic to argue why bother about same gotra marriages when your punishments are not having any effect (in terms of nos. coming down, etc.)...:)

The principles behind giving justice through punishment are not only about eradicating the crime. It is accepted that no punishment would ever eradicate a crime. But if there is no punishment, it'd be a free for all. I think it was Socrates/Plato who came up with this theory on justice that human beings are more than willing to cause hurt to others, what stops them is the fear of being hurt by a similar action from the opposite side. The concept of justice institutionalizes this fear. One can realize the power of deterrence only when it is not there, something none of us would want to test.

sunillathwal
September 10th, 2009, 01:08 AM
1. Though there was no other woman present except for one covering the event, I was never made to feel out of place.

2. Then suddenly I too was invited to speak. Do you not see the change taking place in Khaps? Else why would they want to hear the views of a woman? My experience was overall very good.

3. It is with this level head that decisions are taken and that too after hearing the views of all. Not in haste to just finish off the burden of cases but also not taking years as it often happens in the courts.

4. These days there are a lot of Lok Adalats being conducted by the Courts. The government is encouraging these.

5. There were various examples given during the Seminar at Surajmal Ins. by representatives of some Khaps where a number of cases were solved. One where as many as 20-25 murders had taken place between families and Khaps had succeeded in bringing peace.

6. The Khaps are not media-savvy and do not know Image-Building concepts. I had requested them to invite the media whenever they were solving some matters so that they do not come to light only when some odd couple is murdered and the Khaps projected as Taliban issuing Fatwas.

7. Life is different in rural areas.All urban thoughts and systems should not be forced on them. Not that people are not ready for change.But it should suit them.

8. The younger generation with exposure to the outside world should give them ideas to keep pace with changes happening outside.



This post covers almost all the points raised so far.. :)



Unfortunately, in my opinion, Khaps have failed to deal with the issue of honour killings in an appropriate way.

Khaps can't declare themselves as the authority in one case and then raise their hands in helplessness saying "What can we do?" in another case; both cases belonging to similar jurisdiction. Similarly, how can Khap argue that they don't have a role to play when the relatives are indulging in honor killings. By the same logic, they shouldn't have a role when the relatives are blessing a marriage (like in Dharana).


You have raised valid operational points (that I'll attempt to answer) on what Khaps can actually do or if whatever they do would be effective or not. But my main point is on principles, which are paramount in matters of justice. A judiciary (and Khaps claim to be one with centuries of experience) can't pick and choose cases that it wants to pass judgments on. It has to look (Atleast attempt!) at all the issues that are there in its jurisdiction; fairly and justly.

Now coming to the operational part, probably there is not much that Khaps can do, since they don't have a defined role/responsibility in the Indian state (Note that the same applies in cases of gotra marriages or land disputes, etc.). I don't think the identity of the accused is that big a secret inside a village when the crimes happen in public view or when the accused come and proclaim their deeds publicly on TV.

But two wrongs don't make a right, my friend. Khaps don't have to give a green light to same gotra/village marriage if it rules against the honor killings. It doesn't have to choose one of the two, it can reject both.

I can use the same logic to argue why bother about same gotra marriages when your punishments are not having any effect (in terms of nos. coming down, etc.)...:)



Kapil, let me put your concern/query in simpler words:
Khap pnachyats do 'act' in same gotra marriage but not against honor killings! Why?

Typical case: There is a dispute between two individuals, they can opt for going to police or to panchayats. {Panchyats hardly go to somebody's home to sort out any issue. it is always one party or other who ask panchayats to intervene).}
In case of prohibited-gotra marriage, there are a lot of people who are 'affected'. As pointed out by Bharti ji, rural life is different. It creates a 'moral' issue for a particular gotra. Our constitution/courts are of no help in this matter. So, a group of people approach panchayat or khap panchayats. Decision taken by these institutes is 'agreeable' by both the sides (may be the couple in this case is not happy, but the Two gotra ppl are!!!). If khap-panchayat is not able to do that, then the matter is put forwarded to sarv-khap panchayat.

Now, your point that if panchayat is not 'acting' on honor killing (personal matter) then they should not 'act' in same marriage either (again same personal choice)!!
If you look closely, then panchayat is NOT intruding their personal space.. Panchayat role is to somehow solve the 'issue' raised by such a marriage which is affecting another set of people (gotra) and again it does so because it is approached for the same!!
Panchayat does not take issues by its own. i am sure there are marriages which are against the set norms (eg. ppl migrated from village to city and then marrying somebody close to that villages). Did panchayat go and hand out the 'boycott farman' for such couple?? no!!
On similar lines, there are many ppl lodged in jails for various crimes by the law, Panchayats don't go and try to change the verdict in those cases.

Point i am trying to drive here is that Panchayats do NOT take issues as per their wish; people approach panchyats as per their convenience.

In case of honor killings, nobody else is really 'affected' (and if there is somebody, then he/she does not approach panchayat). i am sure if one go and raise the issue, they will do the best of their capacities. Point is who will raise the question?? Neighbors, relatives, friends, family, you, me?? Who??

Kapil, therotically speaking, they can condemn such acts BUT as u pointed out in your post panchayats have a very limited role. i am not very sure about the composition of kahp-panchyats and their agendas but as i know these are normal folks with their families and job etc, they meet only when there is some 'issue' at hand and try to sort out a most agreeable solution.

For the sake of argument:
Kapil, why u think that state law (equipped with all sort of punishments and being the supreme authority) is not able to stop these (apparently) rampant honor killings??? :)
Does state (which is of course ignorant about the rural sensitivities regarding gotra system) not have this responsibility of punishing those guilty of honor killing?? why even state is failing?? :)

sidchhikara
September 10th, 2009, 02:49 AM
For the sake of argument:
Kapil, why u think that state law (equipped with all sort of punishments and being the supreme authority) is not able to stop these (apparently) rampant honor killings??? :)
Does state (which is of course ignorant about the rural sensitivities regarding gotra system) not have this responsibility of punishing those guilty of honor killing?? why even state is failing?? :)

Good question.
I think the answer is that we are a banana republic.

kapdal
September 10th, 2009, 03:47 AM
Kapil, let me put your concern/query in simpler words:
Khap pnachyats do 'act' in same gotra marriage but not against honor killings! Why?


Sunil,

I think these are valid arguments to "justify" Khaps' inaction on honor killings. As you noted, I had acknowledged Khaps' limited "official" capacity as well. Indeed, one can think of other such arguments to absolve the Khaps. But the debate that whether Khaps don't take action because they silently approve of these murders (bad reason) or because they are helpless/not approached (good reason) would be pointless from the perspective of the point I was trying to make.

My last post is my opinion on "Why Khaps must take action" and not a question- "Khaps don't take action. Why?" The point I was trying to stress on was the question of moral authority. Khaps are social organizations. The role of a social organization is to provide leadership to the society on social issues. Honor killings are as much of a social issue as same gotra marriages. While the cause of Khaps' inaction is debatable, the effect is not- it significantly erodes their moral authority. When that goes, not much is left. Today newspapers are questioning their wisdom, tomorrow everyone would. If I was a member of Khap, I'd have felt obliged to act on such cases, to the best of my capacity. To relinquish a duty on semantics may be convenient but not visionary.

kapdal
September 10th, 2009, 04:35 AM
For the sake of argument:
Kapil, why u think that state law (equipped with all sort of punishments and being the supreme authority) is not able to stop these (apparently) rampant honor killings??? :)
Does state (which is of course ignorant about the rural sensitivities regarding gotra system) not have this responsibility of punishing those guilty of honor killing?? why even state is failing?? :)

It is a separate argument from the point I was making earlier, but for the sake of argument..:)

Firstly, I think the amount of rampant-ness of honor killings is a hype created by the media. The very reason I wrote an angst-filled comment to Ms. Sengupta for the shoddy journalism she delivered. The Indian state fails to deliver on many law and order issues, so this is nothing special. Much less dangerous than Naxals, who are upto something much more sinister.

Having said that, state is anyways ill-equipped to deal with this issue as it is a social problem. The policemen/prosecutors come from the same society, thus undermining the possible punitive action. In fact, punishments by State may actually be counterproductive as it'd be seen as "outsider" action. It is important for the punishments to be given by an authority that people believe in, if they have to act as a deterrent. In any case, they can't be the sole remedial action. The aim should be to look beyond punishments.

A social problem can be solved only through social reforms, backed by state action. An example of the same is Sati, against which Arya Samaj, Brahmo Samaj and other social reformers campaigned against through 19th/20th century, backed by anti-Sati laws. Till then, there was as much honor in Sati as well, if not more. Who can undertake social reforms- the one who exercises moral leadership over the masses. The current politicians clearly don't have it (At a time, probably Ch. Chhotu Ram/Ch. Charan Singh or Ch. Devi Lal did). Khaps, who probably have the moral authority, are unwilling to look at the problem for whatever reasons.

annch
September 10th, 2009, 07:32 AM
By the way, which political party in Haryana is supporting the rejuvenation of Khap Panchayats?

vicky84
September 10th, 2009, 07:49 AM
By the way, which political party in Haryana is supporting the rejuvenation of Khap Panchayats?

I believe every political party...

As its just a matter of getting votes..no matter how they come from..which way they come from...Political parties need power and supporting Khap Panchayats is one of the way to get into power...

annch
September 10th, 2009, 07:54 AM
Thanks for the info.....have khap panchayats given any indication which party they are supporting?

I believe every political party...

As its just a matter of getting votes..no matter how they come from..which way they come from...Political parties need power and supporting Khap Panchayats is one of the way to get into power...

vicky84
September 10th, 2009, 08:05 AM
Thanks for the info.....have khap panchayats given any indication which party they are supporting?

As far as my knowledge is concerned, khap panchayats do not support any political party officially but could be some internal politics where they are biased on supporting some party...

rakeshsehrawat
September 10th, 2009, 11:18 AM
Panchayat have their own system they are not governed by any govt. or political party. They are not getting any donations or rembursements from anyone. Panchayatis spend from their own pocket. What type of reforms do you expect?
Panchayat is an old democracy system. Few rules were made and asked to follow.
1) Every Girl of your gotra and you village is your sister . And you are not allowed to marry a girl of your gotra.
2)You are not allowed to marry in your mother's grand mother's or granny's gotra. Now granny is exempted.
3)If a village is having two gotras then both are brothers and sisters. No one allowed to marry in other's gotra.
4) Intercaste marriage is not allowed (which is no more in practice)
5) From very old times widow is remarried to Younger/ Elder brother of person died. And a man can marry his sister in law. These were first prefrences.

Agar ye bhi bahut bade kanoon hain to koi kuch nahi kar sakta

malikdeepak1
September 10th, 2009, 11:39 AM
Panchayat have their own system they are not governed by any govt. or political party. They are not getting any donations or rembursements from anyone. Panchayatis spend from their own pocket. What type of reforms do you expect?
Panchayat is an old democracy system. Few rules were made and asked to follow.
1) Every Girl of your gotra and you village is your sister . And you are not allowed to marry a girl of your gotra.
2)You are not allowed to marry in your mother's grand mother's or granny's gotra. Now granny is exempted.
3)If a village is having two gotras then both are brothers and sisters. No one allowed to marry in other's gotra.
4) Intercaste marriage is not allowed (which is no more in practice)
5) From very old times widow is remarried to Younger/ Elder brother of person died. And a man can marry his sister in law. These were first prefrences.

Agar ye bhi bahut bade kanoon hain to koi kuch nahi kar sakta

Rakesh bhai agreed on all the rules, but differ slightly on the point highlighted above. Panchayats are not meant only for resolving issues, rather they play a much bigger role in development of the village and for that they definitely get grant from the government. They may be operating on their own for some settlement of local issue but for the development purpose they do get money from govt. No body in this world has such a big heart to spend continuously for 5 years for others.
And Panchayats ARE a part of our system. Only KHAAP panchayats are not.
Shayad isliye sarpanch ke election bhi hote h gaon me.. :)

jitendershooda
September 10th, 2009, 11:40 AM
It is a separate argument from the point I was making earlier, but for the sake of argument..:)

Firstly, I think the amount of rampant-ness of honor killings is a hype created by the media. The very reason I wrote an angst-filled comment to Ms. Sengupta for the shoddy journalism she delivered. The Indian state fails to deliver on many law and order issues, so this is nothing special. Much less dangerous than Naxals, who are upto something much more sinister.

Having said that, state is anyways ill-equipped to deal with this issue as it is a social problem. The policemen/prosecutors come from the same society, thus undermining the possible punitive action. In fact, punishments by State may actually be counterproductive as it'd be seen as "outsider" action. It is important for the punishments to be given by an authority that people believe in, if they have to act as a deterrent. In any case, they can't be the sole remedial action. The aim should be to look beyond punishments.

A social problem can be solved only through social reforms, backed by state action. An example of the same is Sati, against which Arya Samaj, Brahmo Samaj and other social reformers campaigned against through 19th/20th century, backed by anti-Sati laws. Till then, there was as much honor in Sati as well, if not more. Who can undertake social reforms- the one who exercises moral leadership over the masses. The current politicians clearly don't have it (At a time, probably Ch. Chhotu Ram/Ch. Charan Singh or Ch. Devi Lal did). Khaps, who probably have the moral authority, are unwilling to look at the problem for whatever reasons.

The last sentence in BOLD can be solution to all the problems. If you look into this matter of Panchayats/Khaps/Honour Killings etc. Who is the real culprit?

India was divided into different rajwadas during British and before that. In different areas different Castes were residing having their different set of customs and culture. So do Jats and other castes have had in this area. These cultures and traditions were being followed from centuries.

Britishers were so clever that they never came into such disputes or say they have recognised the culture and traditions followed by people of different areas. They have discovered customary laws for different areas. Now India got free, the first government had a quite good intention in mind to bring reforms in the society. BUT How should they have taken this forward?

A social problem can be solved only through social reforms, backed by state action.

But they never acted on your lines. They have put a commette headed by a south indian. That came up with few REFORMS (so called) in 1955.

They left 5 degrees of father gen and 3 of mothers. BUT on the other hand TamilNadu and pondicherry was given rebate out of it in terms of special act/point. Because there were matriarchal society and to keep Mothers land or some others reasons may be there they have a practice to marry girl to her maternal uncle itself. Then why not people of this area were taken into confidence?

Now, you can see that during those times there was not much media involved and I can bet that most of the people of this area didnt know about these type of reforms till 90's.

One elderly Gahlawat Ji, told during Rohtak's seminar that he was present there in parliament deergha that day. And even AbulKalam Azad said that its Stupid. What are you doing Mr Nehru. But Nehru was the sole ruler and so with little opposition it was passed without any spread of news in societies affecting due to this.

In the meantime through TV/Media such movies were shown where marriage happens in the same village and other sort of things affecting youths mind. Now one took such step .... people reacted fearcly and what message gone in public through now much active media is that they are villians. If the law of this country allows them then Who they are to stop them?

These cases have been in majority if a study is carried out then I am sure that 95% of the cases would have been recorded during past 10 years when media is going more active and bringing all sorts of impacts in the society.

Now today there are clashes between society/such couples/state. WHO is responsible and root cause for the same? Even today How state is behaving? Any efforts from our so called reliable state backed by full proof law to reach to root cause?

Panchayats/Khaps looking at the problems faced during marriages they themselves are relaxing some way or the other. It clearly shows that if some state wise discussions are carried out then some permanent solution could be traced out.

If the necessary things will be added into law and rest will be made clear to the khaps and general public. Then there will be less conflicts and thus less honour killings. If one thing will be covered by law and other will be rejected by law as well as by khaps/panchayats (Means people of that area) then there will be no breach of honour and thus no such reactions from families of the couples concerned.

jitendershooda
September 10th, 2009, 11:44 AM
Nice to go through such a healthy discussion on this thread.


Agreed. Painting them in black as out and out villains is as big a folly as painting them in white as out and out heroes (which is also done on the same forum). Every society has its social organizations which are conservative/traditionalist yet important to protect indigenous culture/traditions.


This is what I don't agree to. Khaps can't declare themselves as the authority in one case and then raise their hands in helplessness saying "What can we do?" in another case; both cases belonging to similar jurisdiction. Similarly, how can Khap argue that they don't have a role to play when the relatives are indulging in honor killings. By the same logic, they shouldn't have a role when the relatives are blessing a marriage (like in Dharana).

Eventually, it is upto the state to prosecute the accused as per the Indian law. The only constructive role that Khaps can play in the process is to come down as hardly (if not more) on those guilty of honor killings, as it does on those guilty of same gotra marriages.



But two wrongs don't make a right, my friend. Khaps don't have to give a green light to same gotra/village marriage if it rules against the honor killings. It doesn't have to choose one of the two, it can reject both.


The principles behind giving justice through punishment are not only about eradicating the crime. It is accepted that no punishment would ever eradicate a crime. But if there is no punishment, it'd be a free for all. I think it was Socrates/Plato who came up with this theory on justice that human beings are more than willing to cause hurt to others, what stops them is the fear of being hurt by a similar action from the opposite side. The concept of justice institutionalizes this fear. One can realize the power of deterrence only when it is not there, something none of us would want to test.


This post covers almost all the points raised so far.. :)



Kapil, let me put your concern/query in simpler words:
Khap pnachyats do 'act' in same gotra marriage but not against honor killings! Why?

Typical case: There is a dispute between two individuals, they can opt for going to police or to panchayats. {Panchyats hardly go to somebody's home to sort out any issue. it is always one party or other who ask panchayats to intervene).}
In case of prohibited-gotra marriage, there are a lot of people who are 'affected'. As pointed out by Bharti ji, rural life is different. It creates a 'moral' issue for a particular gotra. Our constitution/courts are of no help in this matter. So, a group of people approach panchayat or khap panchayats. Decision taken by these institutes is 'agreeable' by both the sides (may be the couple in this case is not happy, but the Two gotra ppl are!!!). If khap-panchayat is not able to do that, then the matter is put forwarded to sarv-khap panchayat.

Now, your point that if panchayat is not 'acting' on honor killing (personal matter) then they should not 'act' in same marriage either (again same personal choice)!!
If you look closely, then panchayat is NOT intruding their personal space.. Panchayat role is to somehow solve the 'issue' raised by such a marriage which is affecting another set of people (gotra) and again it does so because it is approached for the same!!
Panchayat does not take issues by its own. i am sure there are marriages which are against the set norms (eg. ppl migrated from village to city and then marrying somebody close to that villages). Did panchayat go and hand out the 'boycott farman' for such couple?? no!!
On similar lines, there are many ppl lodged in jails for various crimes by the law, Panchayats don't go and try to change the verdict in those cases.

Point i am trying to drive here is that Panchayats do NOT take issues as per their wish; people approach panchyats as per their convenience.

In case of honor killings, nobody else is really 'affected' (and if there is somebody, then he/she does not approach panchayat). i am sure if one go and raise the issue, they will do the best of their capacities. Point is who will raise the question?? Neighbors, relatives, friends, family, you, me?? Who??

Kapil, therotically speaking, they can condemn such acts BUT as u pointed out in your post panchayats have a very limited role. i am not very sure about the composition of kahp-panchyats and their agendas but as i know these are normal folks with their families and job etc, they meet only when there is some 'issue' at hand and try to sort out a most agreeable solution.

For the sake of argument:
Kapil, why u think that state law (equipped with all sort of punishments and being the supreme authority) is not able to stop these (apparently) rampant honor killings??? :)
Does state (which is of course ignorant about the rural sensitivities regarding gotra system) not have this responsibility of punishing those guilty of honor killing?? why even state is failing?? :)

kapdal
September 10th, 2009, 03:47 PM
What type of reforms do you expect?
Panchayat is an old democracy system. Few rules were made and asked to follow.
1) Every Girl of your gotra and you village is your sister . And you are not allowed to marry a girl of your gotra.
2)You are not allowed to marry in your mother's grand mother's or granny's gotra. Now granny is exempted.
3)If a village is having two gotras then both are brothers and sisters. No one allowed to marry in other's gotra.
4) Intercaste marriage is not allowed (which is no more in practice)
5) From very old times widow is remarried to Younger/ Elder brother of person died. And a man can marry his sister in law. These were first prefrences.

Agar ye bhi bahut bade kanoon hain to koi kuch nahi kar sakta

Not sure if you are appreciating the discussion. No one is taking an issue with the above rules. Creating a false impression that members are arguing against the social customs doesn't serve any useful purpose (Pity is that this is not the first time). I mentioned REFORMS in the context of honor killings. I know you are a firm supporter of honor killings. And this is the need for social reforms- as even educated people think it is right to kill someone who doesn't abide by a social custom. The next step would be to kill someone who doesn't agree with you.

If a social custom has to be put in practise through such extreme force, it doesn't bode well for the custom. What would be the % of same gotra marriages in our community? I bet it would be less than 0.1% (inter-caste would be much higher). Hell is not going to break loose if a few couples disobey the social customs. An apt punishment would be to ex-communicate them from the society whose rules they don't abide by. It is accepted by the civil society all across the world that only the rarest of rare crimes warrant capital punishment. In the first place, it'd be difficult to argue that marriage by consenting adults is a crime. And it is not only the killed who are victimised, but the killers too. They are left with life long trips to courts apart from a broken family and emotional trauma. And the whole community gets tarnished as "Talibani". Talk about a lose-lose trade.

Samarkadian
September 10th, 2009, 04:40 PM
I put a comment (reproduced below) addressed to the journalist on the above link, criticising her piece. While there are 52 comments on the link associated with Tikait, many of them highly critical of Tikait (rightly so in my opinion), my comment has not been published yet. Let's see how much TOI believes in freedom of speech and expression. This was my letter:

Dear Ms Sengupta,



Kapil, did you recieve any feedback from TOI?

kapdal
September 10th, 2009, 05:08 PM
Kapil, did you recieve any feedback from TOI?

Not yet. Don't think so that I'd get any feedback. I also tried looking for a way to write directly to the editor. But strangely didn't find any link on TOI website. Much more reknowned reporters put down their real email addresses to interact directly with readers. If you have any link, let me know. Ms. Sengupta anyways seems to be hopeless. She carries her prejudices on her sleeves. Her description on her TOI blog says "Her blog is mainly about women and the young, and about men when they deserve a mention." Interestingly, I also found a website where she had ranted big time about the sub-standard journalism of TOI. This was in 2005 and she was in HT then. Read the 2nd last comment:
http://wef.blogs.com/editors/2005/06/india_the_ragin.html

If nothing, probably her new employer, should try and find out what resulted in a change of heart...:)

Samarkadian
September 10th, 2009, 06:11 PM
This wanabe Shoba De aka feminist lead can be tamed here through TOI editor-in-cheif.

To send a letter to the editor, use this form at http://in.indiatimes.com/feedback.cms and choose "Letter to the editor" which sends email to editor@indiatimes.co.in

Wikipedia says the Editor-in-Chief's name is Jaideep Bose.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Times_o…

Phone numbers:- 3312277,3318852,23312271

http://delhigovt.nic.in/press.asp

kapdal
September 10th, 2009, 06:21 PM
This wanabe Shoba De aka feminist lead can be tamed here through TOI editor-in-cheif.

To send a letter to the editor, use this form at http://in.indiatimes.com/feedback.cms and choose "Letter to the editor" which sends email to editor@indiatimes.co.in

Wikipedia says the Editor-in-Chief's name is Jaideep Bose.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Times_o…

Phone numbers:- 3312277,3318852,23312271

http://delhigovt.nic.in/press.asp

I saw the form, but thought it was for Indiatimes. Didn't see TOI option. Would send a letter to the editor and see what happens.

kapdal
September 10th, 2009, 07:47 PM
This wanabe Shoba De aka feminist lead can be tamed here through TOI editor-in-cheif.

To send a letter to the editor, use this form at http://in.indiatimes.com/feedback.cms and choose "Letter to the editor" which sends email to editor@indiatimes.co.in

Wikipedia says the Editor-in-Chief's name is Jaideep Bose.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Times_o…

Phone numbers:- 3312277,3318852,23312271

http://delhigovt.nic.in/press.asp

Just used the form to send this letter to the editor. I checked later that my letter had 4000+ characters, and the form had said 1000 characters. Neverthless, I did get "Thank You For Sending Your Feedback!http://in.indiatimes.com/images/spacer.gif". If I don't get a response, I will use the email address (where did u get it from?). Here is the letter:

Dear Sir,

This is with reference to the story that appeared on this link:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news/india/Pesticide-pills-for-wayward-girls/articleshow/4984365.cms

I had written a critical comment on the same link directed to Ms. Nandita Sengupta. Though critical, it was devoid of any foul language. To the best of my knowledge, I didn't violate any of the usual etiquettes one should bear in mind before posting an online comment. So I was extremely disappointed when my comment was not published. As a leading media organization, TOI was expected to have some stomach for freedom of speech. And of course, I didn't even receive any reason on why comment was not published.

Coming back to the story, it is an example of how far the journalistic standards have fallen. It is apparent that Ms. Sengupta has literally invented the piece from her pre-conceived notions. Words like "casual" and "routine" have been used to describe murders as if it is some hobby pursued by these villagers in their leisure time. She has absolutely no idea of what she is talking about. Here is another gem, "Interestingly, the entire onus of ‘siblinghood’ rests on the girl." How is that even a logical statement? There are no lesbians being murdered for dishonouring "siblinghood". So how can the onus be only on the girl? She goes on, "Exceptions may be made for a boy, if the khap decides, but a girl is never allowed to bend the rules." How can a girl single-handedly bend the rule!!? For the rule to bent, she'd have to marry a boy from the same village, right!? I won't even bother about going into her description of Khaps as social workers and the decisions/exceptions she is attributing to them carte blanche.

While there is no honour in killing (and there is no denying that there have been honour killings), the reality is far from what your reporter is trying to present here. It seems her aim is to use the "shock and awe" technique on the readers. So many cases of rapes, murders, hangings, pesticide pills in one village; and she couldn't mention ONE SPECIFIC CASE? Rather than the "mysterious" death of the "10-12" females as quantified by her, what seems more mysterious to me is their very existence- if they existed in real, I wonder how a talented journalist like her couldn't delve deeper into ONE SPECIFIC CASE? And there are some absolute bloopers. Like "If a couple runs away, the women in their families run the risk of being raped, gang-raped, and boycotted." I think she forgot to mention the public lashings, eye-balls being gorged out, nails taken off, etc. etc. I mean comeon!

And let's be clear. There is no denying that honour killings are a sad reality. Indeed, there have been cases where families kill their own in the name of honour, when some social customs are violated. It is shameful and barbaric even if it happens much less rampantly than what your reporter is trying to suggest. People like her, who want to sensationalize everything without understanding anything, are a part of the problem. No social evil (and honour killings for whatever reason are a social evil) has ever been rooted out by painting a negative picture of the people who believe in it. In this case, Ms. Sengupta and her counterparts don't even understand the difference between social custom and social evil. When they are befuddled by the "complicated logic" (Quoting from another piece done by Ms. Divya A on Dharana) of a social custom, they call it social evil, effortlessly switching from one to the other using their vivid imagination to fill in the huge gaps of logic.

Interestingly, on doing my little research on Ms. Nandita Sengupta, I am a bit more enlightened of her credentials (or lack of them). Back in 2005, she felt so strongly against TOI and its journalistic standards, that she was writing on a public forum about the same. Link below:
http://wef.blogs.com/editors/2005/06/india_the_ragin.html

From this, I wonder if she has purposely decreased her standards to be in line with TOI's standards or if TOI's standards are falling because of journalists like here.

I hope your newspaper still has the gumption to carry critical views. If not, atleast have the decency to acknowledge receipt.

Warm Regards,
Kapil Dalal

Svikas
September 10th, 2009, 08:24 PM
Kapil, try this email add mytimesmyvoice@timesgroup.com and copy it to toieditorial@timesgroup.com toireporter@timesgroup.com

kapdal
September 10th, 2009, 08:30 PM
Kapil, try this email add mytimesmyvoice@timesgroup.com and copy it to toieditorial@timesgroup.com toireporter@timesgroup.com

Thanks Vikas! Will try these if the above doesn't work.

bharti
September 11th, 2009, 10:06 AM
Kapil, the Edit Page Mailbox invites views and comments at mytimesmyvoice@timesgroup.com with Editor,Delhi in the subject line.

kapdal
September 11th, 2009, 03:05 PM
Kapil, the Edit Page Mailbox invites views and comments at mytimesmyvoice@timesgroup.com with Editor,Delhi in the subject line.

Thanks Bhartiji! I will send it to the above email ID tonight/tomorrow.

To be honest though, the best response would be a progressive Khap that unconditionally condemns honour killings and take whatever steps it can to stop the same. I have made a case for this earlier based on Khaps' moral authority. Maybe it won't stop even one honour killing, but there is no harm trying, and it'd only help improve Khaps'/community's perceived image. Since you have been involved with Khaps, do you think Khaps are willing to introspect? Or is it too much to expect?

bharti
September 11th, 2009, 04:31 PM
Kapil, whatever brief interaction I have had with the Khap Pradhans/ Representatives, I am all hopeful.

It is not that these old men are not ready to listen to you or they are not ready to change. But then there has to be a way to put your point to them. Try 'teaching' or 'preaching', none would care about you.Especially Jats. Develop confidence, make them believe you are part of them, not any 'outsider', they would give you all respect and listen to you.
Has anyone ever tried this?
Maybe now some are trying that.

Also,it is not that Khaps have not changed certain rules with changing times. With changing times when they realised that certain Big Gotras like Malik were finding it difficult to find matches, it was the colletive decision of Gathwala(Malik) Khap that if both -the boys' and girls' grandmother's gotra was Malik, they could leave it.
So we cannot say Khaps are too rigid to change.

There has been no fatwa issued or any flogging of women for doing away with 'ghoongats'. People are accepting these changing trends.
A 'Sengupta' might call a woman in any village in 'ghoonghat' or 'dhaatha' as backward but she would find the girls in city like Pune zooming around on 2-wheelers with scarves tied exactly as 'dhaatha'(the women in villages wrap their dupatta in a peculiar way around their face while working to avoid dust or otherwise where only the eyes are visible), that would be trendy!

Kapil, with things changing at a great pace especially in last 8-10 years, it is not only people in rural areas who are finding it difficult but people in cities like Delhi too have not been able to keep pace.
Ask any parent of a school going teenager especially those who go to the ones with big names how difficult parenting has become. How the parents as well as teachers are shocked to see boys with low-waist trousers and girls all trying to be like Kalki of Dev-D. Same Times of India had come with a big story on this issue as well and had given statements of shock of some famous schools and the corrective measures being taken by them. Why? Let the children follow the latest trends.
It takes time to adapt to these changes trends.

Coming back to Khaps. Kapil, I am not defending the wrong decisions that might have been taken by Khaps, but I do believe that they too are evolving. Give them some time.
Again whatever little I know about the Khaps, I think they are still better than the 'democratically' elected Panchayats which are politicised so much so that it creates enimity amongst the people of same village because of the interference of Political parties/Local MLA, MP and the kind of money involved. Try to find out the amount of money spent in these panchayat elections to win so that later they can swallow the funds from the Centre/State meant for development of village.
The contestants must be spending lakhs in these elections. Why?
Except for few places, it is all too politicised.

But whatever be the situation presently, I am still hopeful that positive changes will take place.
Maybe, Khaps should hire some Latika Khaneja for image-building ;)

regards,
bharti.

kapdal
September 11th, 2009, 05:27 PM
Kapil, whatever brief interaction I have had with the Khap Pradhans/ Representatives, I am all hopeful.


Bhartiji, I have absolutely no issue with whatever you said above. It is all valid. With time, rules will change as they become unsustainable, as they have changed in the past. So I have no issues with the current rules.

Main mudda to honour killing ka hai jisse na sirf parivaaron ki matti-paleet ho rahi hai balki kaum bhi badnaam ho rahi hai. And this can be presented to Khaps in a very respectable way. Ki aap log buzurg ho, Chaudhri ho. Yahaan aapki chaudhar mein log khulle aam katle-aam karr rahe hain aur fir seena thok rahe hain ki humne sahi kiya aur khap hamaare saath hai. Jiske bachhon ne samaaj ke niyam tode, usne un bachhon ko maarke kaunsa teer maara? Sabse pehli galti to uski parvarish main rahi hogi. Aur apni galti ki saza usne bachhon ko de di!? If they agree with the logic, they should themselves feel obliged to take action.

Trust me, if Khaps show moral leadership on this issue (and other such social evils like female infanticide) in an honorable way, no Latika Khanejas would be required for image building. The same idiotic Senguptas would sing paeans in praise of "forward-looking, progressive and honest community leaders". To hell with Senguptas. In the first place, that would be the right thing to do.

rakeshsehrawat
September 11th, 2009, 06:10 PM
Bhartiji, I have absolutely no issue with whatever you said above. It is all valid. With time, rules will change as they become unsustainable, as they have changed in the past. So I have no issues with the current rules.

Main mudda to honour killing ka hai jisse na sirf parivaaron ki matti-paleet ho rahi hai balki kaum bhi badnaam ho rahi hai. And this can be presented to Khaps in a very respectable way. Ki aap log buzurg ho, Chaudhri ho. Yahaan aapki chaudhar mein log khulle aam katle-aam karr rahe hain aur fir seena thok rahe hain ki humne sahi kiya aur khap hamaare saath hai. Jiske bachhon ne samaaj ke niyam tode, usne un bachhon ko maarke kaunsa teer maara? Sabse pehli galti to uski parvarish main rahi hogi. Aur apni galti ki saza usne bachhon ko de di!? If they agree with the logic, they should themselves feel obliged to take action.

Trust me, if Khaps show moral leadership on this issue (and other such social evils like female infanticide) in an honorable way, no Latika Khanejas would be required for image building. The same idiotic Senguptas would sing paeans in praise of "forward-looking, progressive and honest community leaders". To hell with Senguptas. In the first place, that would be the right thing to do.

Kapil Khaps are not something that intruppt in family matters unless and untill you call a panchayat people never geather. It is not something like people of same village or they are conneted through internet.
Still they are using indian postal service. No one is paying them to go in panchayat. For sake of society they are doing this job for free. If you have a say meet any panchayat head ask him to post letter and call sarvakhap. This is not something that you can do from UK.


Aadmi ko apne bache marna kaisa lagta hoga ye kaise keh sakte ho.
Agar apni izzat ke liye koi apne kaleje ke tukde ko maarta hai to use kyon rokenge?
Izzat ke liya marna aur maarna jato se chudwa diya to jat ki jagah naam aage sharma la dyo.

bharti
September 11th, 2009, 06:25 PM
Trust me, if Khaps show moral leadership on this issue (and other such social evils like female infanticide) in an honorable way, no Latika Khanejas would be required for image building. The same idiotic Senguptas would sing paeans in praise of "forward-looking, progressive and honest community leaders". To hell with Senguptas. In the first place, that would be the right thing to do.

Kapil, during the seminar at Maharaja Surajmal Institute, one of the speakers' made a mention of female foeticide to be a personal issue(he was no Khap Pradhan).
When I was invited to speak, the first thing I spoke was on this.
I said I beg to differ. Agar female foeticide personal issue hai to fir shaadi bhi ek personal issue hai. Fir kyon maar detey hain apne gotr/guhaand mein shaadi karne par? Unki marji, kisi se bhi karein shaadi.
Haryana, jahan ek bhains bhi 40-50000 se kam mein nahi aati, wahan log 2-25000 mein biwi khareed kar le aate hain! kyon? kyonki apne yahan to ladkiyaan paida hone nahi detey,to fir aur jagah se khareedkar hi laayenge. chahe kharnaa hi kharaab ho jaaye. chahe wo chuhdi/ chamari kisi bhi gotr ki ho koi farak nahi padta. Na hi koi panchayat ismein kuchch kethi hai aur na hi koi katal hotey.
Kyon, ye personal issue ho gaya? Koi farak nahi padta samaj ko?

Amidst slight smiles on this Kharnaa word I mentioned, all I could hear was Shame! Shame!

As I went back to take my seat, the same gentleman who had made the mention of foeticide was so apologetic that I was embarassed. Maybe he had never thought it this way.

Anyway, I had put across my message :)

bazardparveen
September 11th, 2009, 07:42 PM
Dear friends
I have not gone through this thread (it take hours to read whole thread).The point i am raising here, might have been raised earlier. I was reading thread: Married Adult children abandoning Parents in America - Indians
http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?p=224404&posted=1#post224404
I think, incident told by ritu ji is only one of the examples what is happening in our society. These issues must be raised in our panchayat/ kahp panchayat. Peoplle who are doing such shameful acts must be punished.

kapdal
September 11th, 2009, 07:52 PM
Kapil Khaps are not something that intruppt in family matters unless and untill you call a panchayat people never geather. It is not something like people of same village or they are conneted through internet.
Still they are using indian postal service. No one is paying them to go in panchayat. For sake of society they are doing this job for free. If you have a say meet any panchayat head ask him to post letter and call sarvakhap. This is not something that you can do from UK.



Bhai teri Khap ki description to aisi hai ki jaise yeh bin jabde ke boodhe sher hain, jinhain sirf dahaadne ke liye kabhi-kabhi ikhatta kiya jaata hai. I hope they don't think like you and are much better leaders than that.



Aadmi ko apne bache marna kaisa lagta hoga ye kaise keh sakte ho.
Agar apni izzat ke liye koi apne kaleje ke tukde ko maarta hai to use kyon rokenge?
Izzat ke liya marna aur maarna jato se chudwa diya to jat ki jagah naam aage sharma la dyo.

Kuchh ek aadmi aur woh bhi Jat to apni ladkiyon ko paida hone se pehle hi maar dete hain. Woh bhi personal matter hi hoga aur shaayad izzat bhi badhti hogi?
On a lighter note, I'd find infinitely more honorable to be a Rakesh Sharma and travel in space than being a Rakesh Sehrawat killing for fake honour.

kapdal
September 11th, 2009, 07:53 PM
Dear friends
I have not gone through this thread (it take hours to read whole thread).The point i am raising here, might have been raised earlier. I was reading thread: Married Adult children abandoning Parents in America - Indians
http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?p=224404&posted=1#post224404
I think, incident told by ritu ji is only one of the examples what is happening in our society. These issues must be raised in our panchayat/ kahp panchayat. Peoplle who are doing such shameful acts must be punished.

Nyun kyukar bhai...yeh bhi personal matter hai...pehle yeh bata ki chitthi likh ke panchayat kaun bulaayega?

bazardparveen
September 11th, 2009, 08:00 PM
Nyun kyukar bhai...yeh bhi personal matter hai...pehle yeh bata ki chitthi likh ke panchayat kaun bulaayega?
bhai kapil, nue to bhay bhi personal matter sae..............uda to jiba log kadda ho ja sae:D:D....................Joke apart,I don't know who will call because i don't know how khap panchyat works. but one thing is sure if Panchyat take action in these matters then everybody will support them.

tejsd
September 14th, 2009, 09:09 PM
There has been a lot of media attention on the marriages within Gotras and expert advise rendered by many a champions. I had written to the Times of India , in reply to various articles published in the paper. Understandably, they have not published the article.I am reproducing the same below.



To My Sister I Marry : Never


Medieval justice, love marriages doomed, back a few centuries, Taliban of India are few of the verdicts pronounced by the media and the conscience keepers of the faith on the happenings in and around the villages of the Capital Region. They have catapulted into prominence the ‘Khap Panchayat System’, little known till recently. Unfortunately, the people who are sitting on judgment know very little about the social customs of the this area and have made no attempt to educate themselves even in the last few months, when the so called honour killings came into prominence. I personally condemn all such acts of killing and neither does the ‘Khap’ nor the community allows these. Why then are these killings taking place and why the ‘Khaps’ are dictating terms when we have a time tested judiciary in place. More so in an area adjacent to the National Capital Region and in some of the most prosperous states / region of the country (Haryana , rural Delhi, Western UP, parts of Rajasthan and even Punjab). Certainly things are not as simple as brought to us by the ‘social champions’ through the media.
It is beyond argument that the social customs of an area are the basis of law of that land and not the other way around. Thus, Muslims have a different law based on their customs and Hindus have a different law. However, customs of Hindus vary from one geographical region to another (since these are unwritten) and hence the law tries to accommodate such variations. The Hindu Marriage Act does not permit marriage between brother and sister (unless custom permits, as in certain South Indian communities).
At this point it is pertinent to understand who Jats are and are they actually as barbaric and backward as projected by some section of the media. Jats are staunch Aryans and do not believe in idol worship. They worship their ancestors and each village has its own shrine dedicated to its ancestors. Thus, age old customs and traditions are more dear to them than even their own sibling. Customs like widow marriage in the late husband’s family, to keep the ‘ijjat’ within family, are still prevalent . Today, the Jats make some of the best soldiers and farmers due to their hard work, dedication and self respect.
Would it then be right to term a successful, dedicated and patriotic community as ‘Taliban of India’? The answer lies in our perception . Perhaps we still perceive village life and customs as seen in Bollywood movies. Ironically , it’s not the truth what is projected in films and wrongly assimilated by our urban thinkers. Take a closer look in any village around Delhi . It generally consists of only one or two ‘Gotras’. Most Gotras form a cluster of neighboring villages. Thus, all boys and girls in a village are brothers and sisters. They are cousins from same descendents and must act and behave as such. There is nothing wrong in that expectation. Most Indian religions and communities ( except Muslims ) do not allow marriage between brothers and sisters. This is what the ‘Khap Panchayat’ has been saying and interference by ignorant media has catapulted a non issue into national debate.
Let us understand and respect the local customs and find social solutions rather than imposing an alien one. The action by the ‘Khap Panchyat’ to seek legal redress and amendments to the Hindu Marriage Act is a step in the right direction and must be analysed by the sociologists to render correct advice. If reason fails to understand , support and honour local customs then may be Taliban is around the corner (or around the NCR). - Col TS Dalal (Retd)

malikdeepak1
September 15th, 2009, 10:41 AM
bhai kapil, nue to bhay bhi personal matter sae..............uda to jiba log kadda ho ja sae:D:D....................Joke apart,I don't know who will call because i don't know how khap panchyat works. but one thing is sure if Panchyat take action in these matters then everybody will support them.

Bhai Panchayat to munaadi kar ke bulayi jaya kare.. Aajkal advance ho rhe h log to phone pe btala lende honge ke flaani jagah panchayat se bula laiyo apne gaam aalyan ne..
Er bhai parveen jo mudda tane suggest karya se Khap panchayat ko, wo discuss karna bahot jaruri h in Khap panchayatan me kyuki isi panchayat me aadhe ghar te dabadkaaye hod log e jaya kare jinki unke ghar me bhoojh nahi hoti.Er honor killing karke sher bane rah se.
Bhai inke kanoono/reetiyon ke khilaf koi nahi h, khilaf hai to inki mansikta ke. Insan h bhai hum, jaanvar nahi jo aadmi ko mar de.

We should abide by the rules but not at the cost of life!

anilsinghd
September 15th, 2009, 04:21 PM
Nyun kyukar bhai...yeh bhi personal matter hai...pehle yeh bata ki chitthi likh ke panchayat kaun bulaayega?

On a serious note , do not you and the other protagonists in the ongoing discussion believe that it is nothing mroe than a lack of proper description , specification that is causing issues?

I mean where is the official document of what comes under khap panchayats and what not?

Where is a proper agenda of what they are supposed to do? And how are they evolving.


Sorry to be sounding technical on this but frankly it does not take a lot to describe what exactly is the plan , the vision or something similar. I happened to read a document related to regi stration of NGO and was scrared like anything , its so formal and legal and blah blah but practically it did not convey any iota of information , We no more can run our nation / villages etc on unwritten promises and cannot leave things to the "wisdom" of people.
We keep on talking of politics all day long and parties but frankly its time we make people accountable , we start judging on basis of work done out of work promised.

Mathematics is a basic science and i do not think it takes a PHD to calculate x/y , any illiterate people can do that as well.

Proper specifications and accountability and transparency are the keys.

malikdeepak1
September 15th, 2009, 04:44 PM
Proper specifications and accountability and transparency are the keys.

This is what is required but not found anywhere. what you find is only blame game.

ravichaudhary
September 15th, 2009, 05:59 PM
There has been a lot of media attention on the marriages within Gotras and expert advise rendered by many a champions. I had written to the Times of India , in reply to various articles published in the paper. Understandably, they have not published the article.I am reproducing the same below.



To My Sister I Marry : Never

- Col TS Dalal (Retd)[/FONT][/SIZE]



Col. Dalal

Good article.


TOI is studiuosly avoiding publishing any comments which are against their 'line'.

We will have to develop a coordinated strategy.

How many more people have posted comments, which have not appeared?

Please contact me

Ravi Chaudhary

Samarkadian
September 20th, 2009, 11:03 AM
I don't know what it shall be called. A Jat Girl (18) along with her lover murdered almost her whole family which includes seven members. Reason came out of investigation is that Boy and Girl both belong to same gotra Dagar in village Ritoli-Kabulpur.

Have a look at the news piece:

चार दिन के सस्पेंस के बाद हरियाणा के कबूलपुर हत्याकांड का सच सामने आ गया। सात लोगों की हत्या करने वाला कोई और नहीं, बल्कि इस परिवार की बेटी सोनम निकली। उसने यह खूनी खेल अपने प्रेमी के साथ मिलकर खेला। दोनों ने सात जानें इसलिए ले लीं, क्योंकि माता-पिता और दादी उनकी शादी में बाधक बन रहे थे। पुलिस ने दोनों को गिरफ्तार कर लिया है।

malikdeepak1
September 20th, 2009, 01:31 PM
I don't know what it shall be called. A Jat Girl (18) along with her lover murdered almost her whole family which includes seven members. Reason came out of investigation is that Boy and Girl both belong to same gotra Dagar in village Ritoli-Kabulpur.

Have a look at the news piece:

चार दिन के सस्पेंस के बाद हरियाणा के कबूलपुर हत्याकांड का सच सामने आ गया। सात लोगों की हत्या करने वाला कोई और नहीं, बल्कि इस परिवार की बेटी सोनम निकली। उसने यह खूनी खेल अपने प्रेमी के साथ मिलकर खेला। दोनों ने सात जानें इसलिए ले लीं, क्योंकि माता-पिता और दादी उनकी शादी में बाधक बन रहे थे। पुलिस ने दोनों को गिरफ्तार कर लिया है।



This IS the ugly face of gotra-vivads. The killings done by the girl just shows how the circumstances (Read HONOR KILLINGS) have made them commit such a crime. Same goth ke the donu to un ne dikh liya tha ki byah koni hove unka. Je kar bhi le hai to KHAP aale nahi jeen deve hai. marna un-ne e tha. Gal ghar aalya ki badnaami honi thi, gaam-guhaand te nyaare hona tha.. Is te aachha sare tapka e diye un ne.

The circumstancs have now created a fear factor among such people who are in these kind of relations.

Yes, the killings are not at all the solution of this problem (same goth),honor killings or the crime committed by the girl, but a definite refinement in the system is required to avoid such controversies in future.

vikasbhalothia
September 20th, 2009, 01:35 PM
I m against the muslim law , but 4 these kind of people inko bech road par khada kar ke patharo se marna chaiye ,
हवस मे अन्धी इस लड़की को जरा भी दया नहि आयी , जिन्होने इसको पाला पोसा ईतना बड़ा किया . उनको मारते हुऐ इस लड़्की के हाथ नहि कापे

Samarkadian
September 20th, 2009, 01:35 PM
This IS the ugly face of gotra-vivads. The killings done by the girl just shows how the circumstances (Read HONOR KILLINGS) have made them commit such a crime. Same goth ke the donu to un ne dikh liya tha ki byah koni hove unka. Je kar bhi le hai to KHAP aale nahi jeen deve hai. marna un-ne e tha. Gal ghar aalya ki badnaami honi thi, gaam-guhaand te nyaare hona tha.. Is te aachha sare tapka e diye un ne.

The circumstancs have now created a fear factor among such people who are in these kind of relations.

Yes, the killings are not at all the solution of this problem (same goth),honor killings or the crime committed by the girl, but a definite refinement in the system is required to avoid such controversies in future.



Thank you Spokes Man of the year.

malikdeepak1
September 20th, 2009, 01:47 PM
Thank you Spokes Man of the year.

ha ha. Nahi Samarji ye title to Rocky bhai ko hi dijiye, mere kise kaam ka nahi hai ye. :p
Aapka dhanywad aapne hume is title ke liye chuna:D

Baki bhay baith rha h ib ise relation aala me. Wo jo karte hai wo hi galat hai sabse pahle to. unki vjah se unke ghar aale badnaam hove se.

but i'm strongly against Honor killings. I don't know the exact circumstances which led that girl to commit such a big crime. But I'm sure that these killings have a certain role in making up her mind set to kill her family members (since they are from same gotra). Uski family wale aginst the unke relation ke coz of same goth, or ve alag rhna nahi chahte ek-dusre se.

Or ye Honor killings ki baat unhe bhi pta hai, since this issue is still very hot there in our area. So unko ye to pta hi tha ki vo agar shadi karenge to unhe sath nahi rahne diya jayega aur most probably Honor Killing ke naam par maar bhi diya jayega.

Need is to change the mindset of people. Aur ye Khap panchahyts ke Honor killings karne se nahi sudhrne wla hai. jab tak ye chlega, i'm sure the incident of Kabulpur will be repeated time and again.

malikdeepak1
September 20th, 2009, 01:49 PM
I m against the muslim law , but 4 these kind of people inko bech road par khada kar ke patharo se marna chaiye ,


Jarur maaro bhai, par gal un ne bhi khade kar lo Jo HONOUR KILLINGS ke naam pe in jisa ne maar de se.. No body has right to kill any person in this world. So the LAW should be the same for all!

vikasbhalothia
September 20th, 2009, 01:56 PM
Jarur maaro bhai, par gal un ne bhi khade kar lo Jo HONOUR KILLINGS ke naam pe in jisa ne maar de se.. No body has right to kill any person in this world. So the LAW should be the same for all!


honour killing is much better than this

Samarkadian
September 20th, 2009, 01:57 PM
ha ha. Nahi Samarji ye title to Rocky bhai ko hi dijiye, mere kise kaam ka nahi hai ye. :p
Aapka dhanywad aapne hume is title ke liye chuna:D

Baki bhay baith rha h ib ise relation aala me. Wo jo karte hai wo hi galat hai sabse pahle to. unki vjah se unke ghar aale badnaam hove se.

but i'm strongly against Honor killings. I don't know the exact circumstances which led that girl to commit such a big crime. But I'm sure that these killings have a certain role in making up her mind set to kill her family members. Uski family wale aginst the unke relation ke coz of same goth, or ve alag rhna nahi chahte ek-dusre se.

Or ye Honor killings ki baat unhe bhi pta hai, since this issue is still very hot there in our area. So unko ye to pta hi tha ki vo agar shadi karenge to unhe sath nahi rahne diya jayega aur most probably Honor Killing ke naam par maar bhi diya jayega.

Need is to change the mindset of people. Aur ye Khap panchahyts ke Honor killings karne se nahi sudhrne wla hai. jab tak ye chlega, i'm sure the incident of Kabulpur will be repeated time and again.

One need MIND SET to commit such heinous deeds and that too a 18 year old? How did you manage to read their mind sitting hundred kilometers away.? You definitely seem to have a great telepathic skills

I am amazed that while 'Not Knowing' you can justify and rationalize criminal acts so strongly.

In last sentence, you are a dead sure Astrolger as well, Deepak. You beat rocky at every spot.

We wish to hear more of you., Deepak.

malikdeepak1
September 20th, 2009, 02:23 PM
One need MIND SET to commit such heinous deeds and that too a 18 year old? How did you manage to read their mind sitting hundred kilometers away.? You definitely seem to have a great telepathic skills

I am amazed that while 'Not Knowing' you can justify and rationalize criminal acts so strongly.

In last sentence, you are a dead sure Astrolger as well, Deepak. You beat rocky at every spot.

We wish to hear more of you., Deepak.

She's is mature right? or jo miane suna h ya news me dekha h uske hisab se wo 19 ki hai. Har aadmi ki ek soch hoti hai, jaise aapki alag hai or meri alag. I think usi soch ke anusar hmara dimag koi baat accept ya reject karta hai. To us ladki ko apne pyar me (I'm not justifying her love is correct) jo soch-smajh me aaya wo usne kar diya, jo ki bilkul galat hai. Er usne poori planning karke maar rakhe hai ghar aale, to definitely MIND to SET hua hi hai sir.

Main uski pairvi nahi kar rha hu ki usne sahi kiya hai. And its not about my telepathic skills Samar, its my point of view, my perception. What i could make out I posted here. May be you found my view point is not on the correct side.

But coz they were from same gotra this thing certainly can't be ruled out. They have agreed that their parents were against their marriege due to same gotra. So they had to take this step. but if you think on this same gotra line then won't you be reminded of the narwana incident At least ONCE? So i thought that this thing also could have contributed in making them such a decision.

aur rahi baat Honor killings ki to I'm against these type of killings. Je Honor killings kare te same goth aale aapas me pyar karen te darre hai to ye donu ek-dusre te dur ho jyave hai.

And I'm not astrologer Sir. And I don't need to justify this thing. Jo mujhe theek laga maine likh diya. Aapko Thik laga ya nahi laga wo aapki soch hai.


Er ye honor killings kare se na Khap aale, kal ne inke ghar me koi isa karega na jib dekhunga ye apne balak ka ke karenge.

By the way you are also DEAD SURE that i'm an "Astrologer" sitting THOUSANDS of kilometers away from me. So you also PREDICT things about others. Is this also some kind of a telepathic skills??

And Yes you will definitely hear more things from me!

malikdeepak1
September 20th, 2009, 02:35 PM
honour killing is much better than this

kyu bhai wo kise ke balak nahi hote?? Wo insan nahi he ke?

raka
September 20th, 2009, 07:53 PM
kyu bhai wo kise ke balak nahi hote?? Wo insan nahi he ke?
sahi baat kah s bhai .... bakki is chhori n sahi kara , k karti bechaari pyaar to pyaar ho s sari ummar k maa babu gailya thodi kaatni ho s pyaar aale gailya kaatni ho s ......;)

sunillathwal
September 20th, 2009, 08:03 PM
Er ye honor killings kare se na Khap aale, kal ne inke ghar me koi isa karega na jib dekhunga ye apne balak ka ke karenge.


Nth time: Can u give one example where Khap panchayat did/ ordered/ sponsored these honor killings?? :)

malikdeepak1
September 20th, 2009, 11:49 PM
Nth time: Can u give one example where Khap panchayat did/ ordered/ sponsored these honor killings?? :)

Of course dude.

Kasandhi gaon h Gohana tehsil k under. us gaam me ek Professor hai(name i don't remem). Kasandhi ke ore-dhore aale sare gamma me Malik goth se. Wo proffesser kise bahar ke gaam te aake bus gya kashandhi me. Wo Malik ki chori byah laaya apne chore ke. Pahle to ath-gaama panchayat ne uska boycott kar diya er uste kahi ke chori ne ulti chhod aao er gaam chodd do. Par usne koe sa kaam nahi karya. To Bhai Khap panchayat hoyi fer 2-3 bar. Professer ko fir se warning di. WO nahi manaya (Jo uski galat baat thi) Un ne rupiye ikatthe kiye usko MAARNE ke liye.
Professor ko pta chal gya. usne police protection le li. Thode din tak kuch nahi hua.

Wo ek din Gohana se wapis ghar aa rha tha apni car me(No one was with him in the car, don kno why). Usko Khanpur gaon ke pass rok liya logo ne or usko bahut buri trah se maara lathiyo se(wo log aspas ke kisi gaon ke nahi the). Uski kismat achi thi ki usi time ek Police patrolling party udhar se ja rahi thi.. unhone kisi trah usko bacha liya par uske hath-pair toot gaye buri trah. 6-7 mhine me chalaan joga hoya wo.

To bhai directly ya indirectly ye Khap wale hi influence karte hai in killings ko. usne galti kari ya baat me maanu hu. Er wo dhaid se ya bhi maanu hu. kise ki nahi maanta wo. Par galti ki sja jaan se maarna nahi hai. Itne hi influencial hai Khap wale to usko gaion se hi kyu nahi nikal dete, jabardsti hi sahi, par gaon se nikal do. Kisi ko jaan se marne ka haq kanoon ne kisi ko nahi de rkha. Kanoon sab ke liye brabar hai. Khap wale 100% involve hote hai HONOUR killings me.

Mere khud ke saamne ki baat se ya kyuki us tam main apne gaam me rhya karta Kasandhe me (Kasandha-kashandi sath-sath h bikul).

Probably sufficient to satisfy your query that Khap panchayats are involved in some way or other in such killings.

malikdeepak1
September 20th, 2009, 11:51 PM
sahi baat kah s bhai .... bakki is chhori n sahi kara , k karti bechaari pyaar to pyaar ho s sari ummar k maa babu gailya thodi kaatni ho s pyaar aale gailya kaatni ho s ......;)

sangwan uncle ji jo usne ladki ne kiya wo bikul galat hai or uski saja milegi usko. I'm not justifying her killings as I mentioned in my previous posts. I'm just against these so called HONOUR KILLINGS.

rakeshsehrawat
September 21st, 2009, 09:57 AM
An incident of degradation of our minds.We our culture is going in right direction. Soon there will be merrages of cousins.

Agar log isko justify karte hain to honour killing mein kya buarai hai?

Long live love of jats.

raka
September 21st, 2009, 01:36 PM
sangwan uncle ji jo usne ladki ne kiya wo bikul galat hai or uski saja milegi usko. I'm not justifying her killings as I mentioned in my previous posts. I'm just against these so called HONOUR KILLINGS.
ye khaap aale kun s bhai koi sarkaari aadmi ho s k ye , kasute kasai maanas ho s pher to ye ;)

rakeshsehrawat
September 21st, 2009, 01:42 PM
ye khaap aale kun s bhai koi sarkaari aadmi ho s k ye , kasute kasai maanas ho s pher to ye ;)

Fansi todan khater kasai koni milte raka ji Sarvakhap aalya ne pakdo.

little knowledge is dangerous thing.

bazardparveen
September 21st, 2009, 01:54 PM
She's is mature right? or jo miane suna h ya news me dekha h uske hisab se wo 19 ki hai. Har aadmi ki ek soch hoti hai, jaise aapki alag hai or meri alag. I think usi soch ke anusar hmara dimag koi .......... And Yes you will definitely hear more things from me!


Of course dude.

Kasandhi gaon h Gohana tehsil k under. us gaam me ek Professor hai(name i don't remem). Kasandhi ke ore-dhore aale sare gamma me Malik goth se. Wo proffesser kise bahar ke gaam te aake bus gya kashandhi me. ......................Probably sufficient to satisfy your query that Khap panchayats are involved in some way or other in such killings.




Ist of all, we can't justify act of the girl by any means. Girl who can kill her own family can't be right in any way. Nowhere khap Panchyat are responsible for such a sin.

For honor killing families are responsible not khap panchyat. In the incident given by you, 1st point is that everybody knows that according to tradition in harayana, you can't marry in a gotra of the village where you are leaving. That's our culture. I don't think professor was not aware about this. It looks like he does it intentionally not by mistake.Still, professor was asked to leave the village, killing was not ordered. He didn't obey them something wrong happened. He was not killed, it might be possible that intention was just to scare him otherwise their is no need lathi's to kill anybody. I don't think money was collected for the purpose of killing.

Here I am not justifying the act of beating the professor, i want to say, normally parents or other family members do killing at the name of their honor and prestige. Panchyat normally order the family or couple to leave the village. Panchyat are nowhere responsible for killing.

kapdal
September 21st, 2009, 04:39 PM
This is what happens when the powers-to-be resort to "hanga" leadership rather than moral one. Jungle kanoon. Maro ya Maaro. When the leadership in villages throws its weight behind every gotra-vivad, but turns a blind eye to honor killings, what moral authority is it left with? I had asked this earlier on the same thread. Some tried to absolve the khaps, others tried to mock the question. They don't see that to ask a valid question and get a reasonable response is an exercise in strengthening the system (or so I had wished anyways). To ignore it is a symptom of failure. When the authority fails, anarchy prevails. Now the reverse of honor killings has happened, equally disgraceful and disgusting. Next scene- typical hai-tauba by culture-vultures.

They have closed their eyes to what is happening inside villages. When you close your eyes, you can imagine whatever you want. So they imagine an ideal society that functions on moral rules. They don't dare open their eyes.

One can either shout at the top of one's lungs about our "reeti-rivaaz" or take corrective actions to protect the same. Action is effective when you have moral authority. When people know you are right and have faith in you. Either the khaps can wake up now or watch their beloved gotra system collapse like a house of cards. They will have to take appropriate action against all social evils, and not only those that suit them. I hope they can do it.

captkalkal
September 21st, 2009, 04:45 PM
Nth time: Can u give one example where Khap panchayat did/ ordered/ sponsored these honor killings?? :)


I do agree, can any of the members speaking against Khap Panchayats cite an example where the Panchayat ordered an honor killing? It is all media hype and we are swept away alongwith.

I do not support whatever the Panchayats have to say but at the same time let us not declare them as demons. Aaapne hi chacha tau hain who sit and participate in all these panchayats and raise their hands when decisions are being made. I personally know for sure that lot of educated people are a part of decision making process.

malikdeepak1
September 21st, 2009, 05:17 PM
I don't think money was collected for the purpose of killing.


They collected Rs 5 lakhs for that purpose only. Mhare gaam aalyan ne 51000 katthe karke diye the is kaam khatir.

Aur ladki ne jo kiya hai uske liye usko Faansi ki saja bhi kam padegi.
What has happened now is just the Vice-versa of Honor killings like Kapil mentioned in his post.

Samarkadian
September 21st, 2009, 05:34 PM
This is what happens when the powers-to-be resort to "hanga" leadership rather than moral one. Jungle kanoon. Maro ya Maaro. When the leadership in villages throws its weight behind every gotra-vivad, but turns a blind eye to honor killings, what moral authority is it left with? I had asked this earlier on the same thread. Some tried to absolve the khaps, others tried to mock the question. They don't see that to ask a valid question and get a reasonable response is an exercise in strengthening the system (or so I had wished anyways). To ignore it is a symptom of failure. When the authority fails, anarchy prevails. Now the reverse of honor killings has happened, equally disgraceful and disgusting. Next scene- typical hai-tauba by culture-vultures.



Very good point, Kapil.

I assume that whatever you had proposed , was on the lines of strengthing Gotra marriages/ affairs rows, happening among Jats ? What is alternate model in your schemes? Do you agree that this [same gotra affairs/marriages] is unethical? How this could be implemented to eradicate such issues from root? Would you mind to reproduce that post again here.

Without fixing this bug, Khap panchyats can not move ahead towards other equaly important issues like increasing trend of dowry among jats, gender ratio, buying of non-jat brides, land acquiring by govt. and industerialists, lack of Jat education societies and many more.

sunillathwal
September 21st, 2009, 06:22 PM
Pahle to ath-gaama panchayat ne uska boycott kar diya er uste kahi ke chori ne ulti chhod aao er gaam chodd do. Par usne koe sa kaam nahi karya. To Bhai Khap panchayat hoyi fer 2-3 bar. Professer ko fir se warning di. WO nahi manaya (Jo uski galat baat thi) Un ne rupiye ikatthe kiye usko MAARNE ke liye.

Mere khud ke saamne ki baat se ya kyuki us tam main apne gaam me rhya karta Kasandhe me (Kasandha-kashandi sath-sath h bikul).

Probably sufficient to satisfy your query that Khap panchayats are involved in some way or other in such killings.


They collected Rs 5 lakhs for that purpose only. Mhare gaam aalyan ne 51000 katthe karke diye the is kaam khatir.


My ignorance!! This is the first time i have heard about any incident where Khap panchayat collected money to hire goons to eliminate the wrong-doer!! As you are from the same village, i assume it is no hearsay and i have no reason to doubt you.
Can you further elaborate what was the 'modus-operandi' of this money collecting exercise?? i mean did they openly say that they need money
to hire someone?? [just for my curiosity, my village is not very far from gohana... 13 kms only]

I have seen in my village, panchayat collecting money for vill school renovation, for 'johad-khudai', digging well, etc. Ppl (sarcpnach, gaon ke buddhe-bujurg, panchayat memebers) come in group to every home and ask for the contribution. Har ghar apni haisiyet ke hisab se paise daan karte hai...

How 'it' was exercised ?? 'Who and all' contributed here?? Nobody questioned them?? what about your family.. did u contribute?? Please don't take it as a personal comment or something. :)
i am just curios about this whole exercise. :)

kapdal
September 21st, 2009, 06:48 PM
Very good point, Kapil.

I assume that whatever you had proposed , was on the lines of strengthing Gotra marriages/ affairs rows, happening among Jats ? What is alternate model in your schemes? Do you agree that this [same gotra affairs/marriages] this is unethical? How this could be implemented to eradicate such issues from root? Would you mind to reproduce that post again here.

Without fixing this bug, Khap panchyats can not move ahead towards other equaly important issues like increasing trend of dowry among jats, gender ratio, buying of non-jat brides, land acquiring by govt. and industerialists, lack of Jat education societies and many more.

Samar, the crux of my argument can be found here:
http://www.jatland.com/forums/showpost.php?p=224007&postcount=145

My argument is about principles. That Khaps have to deal with all social issues and take a morally correct stand on them. I can suggest that Khaps should proactively connect with youngsters and carry out social reforms/emphasise on social customs like Arya Samaj did. But it can only be a suggestion and not a solution. The best and most capable people to come up with solutions (planned or trial/error route) are Khap/Panchayat people, as they are traditional centers of social power and still recognized by the majority. If they remain indifferent like they have been, they may become redundant.

They can't afford to be reactionary (Koi mudda uthayega to panchayat hogi) or selective (Will look at gotra vivads but not honor killings) in what they deal with. All social evils (including honor killings, female infanticide, etc.) have to be unequivocally condemned and the guilty given appropriate social punishment (let the state handle the criminal case). That would give them moral authority, something every ruler needs. Once you have that, you have to use danda only on rare occasions. Otherwise, it is Andhre Nagri, Chaupat Raja. And then none of your rules or danda works.

rekharathee
September 21st, 2009, 07:15 PM
why that girl's episode is being related to khap panchayts and honour killings,we read or watch such cases very frequently and all the culprits(who kill their parents for their so called love,when parents do not agree) are not jats....these are basically the deeds f hysterical mind-sets.......b it jat or ny other cast.

anilsinghd
September 21st, 2009, 07:38 PM
why that girl's episode is being related to khap panchayts and honour killings.

Rekha, agreed that we can afford to not relate this issue with Khaps at all. But it does not make any harm if we do that as well.

Basically this event (which people are tagging as reverse Honour killing) and the honour killing/issues are no more than "REACTIONARY EVENTS".

And my plain logic is that one cannot solve these issues by being reactionary about things. Having a futuristic vision and to cut the problem at its roots is the way to go.
I have repeated that earlier as well but Khap panchayats or Panchayats or Govt or any Authority need to educate/inform people ( from an early age) about the social norms and their implications. Moral value books which were written 50 years ago are of no use in today's context.

singhabhimanyu
September 21st, 2009, 08:20 PM
Anil, wht's the problem? i dont understand why we're calling this act to be some retaliation to khap laws. i agree with rekha, these gruesome acts are committed by wicked sociopaths who can be in any caste n any country. here's another example http://blog.taragana.com/n/caught-in-compromising-position-daughter-kills-mother-lead-69738/ do u think this kapoor girl retaliated to some khap vap? if u ask me, these horrific things happen in any society. i wonder how people @ jatland.com would have reacted if the nithari culprit was some jat. or if tht bloody austrian Fritlz (incest father) was some jat. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article3835640.ece

Having a futuristic vision and to cut the problem at its roots is the way to go.

why that girl's episode is being related to khap panchayts and honour killings,we read or watch such cases very frequently and all the culprits(who kill their parents for their so called love,when parents do not agree) are not jats....these are basically the deeds f hysterical mind-sets.......b it jat or ny other cast.

anilsinghd
September 21st, 2009, 09:09 PM
Anil, wht's the problem? i dont understand why we're calling this act to be some retaliation to khap laws. i agree with rekha, these gruesome acts are committed by wicked sociopaths who can be in any caste n any country.

Abhimanyu , you might apprecaite that I did not disagree with Rekha on that. I read the case you gave as link. That is totally different from the Khaps etc , totally agreed on that.

The reason I said the Samar's posted case was in some sense realted is because its in the village context and there is hint that the family did not want the relation to go on and thats the reason why it happened.

The problem that you asked is this: LACK OF DEFINITION OF NORMS.

Believe it or not , but if Khaps/parents/panchayats/court/govt. can precisely put down points on what's socially feasible and accpetable and what is not , it will go a long way in simplifying things.

singhabhimanyu
September 21st, 2009, 09:18 PM
no its not at all different frm the way i see it. these are just 2-3 instances of senseless insanity which i blve is beyond any education. not all sicknesses can be cured. these happen and will continue to happen despite the norms being meticulously defined or maybe so in the future. im firm we're unnecessarily dragging in n out the khaps here.

Abhimanyu , you might apprecaite that I did not disagree with Rekha on that. I read the case you gave as link. That is totally different from the Khaps etc , totally agreed on that.
The problem that you asked is this: LACK OF DEFINITION OF NORMS.

hoodarajesh
September 21st, 2009, 11:57 PM
ganv kabul pur me jo huaa kya wo hamari jato ki sanskarti
anusaar huaa hai . sayad hindistan ka pahala mamla hai jo
ye ghatit huaa hai . kya is par bhi hamari jaati ki chhaap
lagni thi . kya ab hame ab ghar ki ladkiyo se bhi daar lagne lagega .
inhe faasi se kam saja nhi honi chahiye .
aap logo ki kya raay hai .......

rana1
September 22nd, 2009, 12:24 AM
ganv kabul pur me jo huaa kya wo hamari jato ki sanskarti
anusaar huaa hai . sayad hindistan ka pahala mamla hai jo
ye ghatit huaa hai . kya is par bhi hamari jaati ki chhaap
lagni thi . kya ab hame ab ghar ki ladkiyo se bhi daar lagne lagega .
inhe faasi se kam saja nhi honi chahiye .
aap logo ki kya raay hai .......


bhai rajesh her parewar m her admi ki ek limit hoti h agar unme se koi ek bhi apni limit cross kerta h to esaa hona lajmi h baki jo huaa bhout buraa huaa abb aap hi soch ker dekhoo ke us ladki ke under keetna jaher bhera huaa hoga jo usne ye kadam uthaya baki ye ghtena samaj ko kalinkeet kerne wali h hamare badeye bujurag theek hi kehte h kee ajj ke balaka m samai kona reh ri ha agee koi asaa kadam na uthaye es leye kanoon ko unee kadi se kadi saja deni chahiye

agar kissi bhai ko nahi pata h to go and get full information
http://in.jagran.yahoo.com/news/local/haryana/4_6_5802979_1.html

ARVINDJANGU
September 22nd, 2009, 01:24 PM
काफी दिनों से इस थ्रेड में 'होनौर किलिंग ' पर बहस चल रही हैं | हर एक यह बात कह रहा हैं की यह गलत हैं ऐसा नहीं होना चाहिए , और इसके लिए खाप वालों को कोस रहें हैं | एक बहनजी ने तो खाप को बिलकुल गलत करार कर दिया , उनका खाप से ज्यादा न्यायपालिका पर विश्वास हैं | क्या न्यायपालिका में भ्रष्टाचार नहीं हैं , सबसे ज्यादा भ्रष्ट तो आजके दिन हमारी न्यायपालिका हैं | आपको कोई नक़ल लेनी हैं तो अहलमद को १००-२०० का नोट देना पड़ता हैं , तारीख लेनी हैं तो जज के रीडर को नोट दो ,गवाही चल रही हो तो सरकारी वकील को पैसे दो | अभी पीछे आप सभी ने मनु शर्मा वाले केस के बारे में पढ़ा होगा , उसको कैसे न्यायपलिका ने बरी कर दिया था | रही खाप की बात तो यह खाप वाले कोई विदेश से नहीं बुलाये जाते , यह लोग हम में से ही होते हैं | गाँव में कितने अहम् फैसले इन खाप पंचायतो के द्वारा लिए जाते जो बिलकुल सही होते हैं | खाप किसे एक आदमी की जागीर नहीं होती की आप उसे खरीद लोगे | अपने समाज अपनी संस्कृति को बचाने के लिए जो ये खाप वाले करते हैं वो न्यायपालिका नहीं कर सकती |
रही बात हत्या की , खाप के लोग कभी किसी को नहीं मरवाते | कुछ दिन पहले एक अखबार में इन खापों के विरोध में काफी विस्तार से लिखा था के ये खाप वाले पैसे लेकर हत्याए बलत्कार जैसे काम करवाते हैं | इस थ्रेड में भी एक भाई ने अपने पड़ोस के गाँव का हवाला दिया हैं | भाई खाप के द्वारा जो यह पैसे उगाए जाते हैं ये किसी हत्या के लिए नहीं , उस दौरान चल रही पंचायत के खार्चे के लिए उगाहे जाते हैं | खाप वालों को किसी को मारने के लिए भाड़े के गुंडे की जरुरत नहीं पड़ती . और न ही वो लोग कोई हत्या या बलत्कार करवाते हैं | यह खाप पंचायत समाज की मान मर्यादा शांति के लिए होती हैं न के हत्या के लिए | अखबार में जिनने वो अर्टिकल लिखा था उनमे से मुझे कोई भी ऐसा नजर नहीं आया जिसका परिवेश गाँव से हो | और न ही उनलोगों का सामाजिक मेल हमसे खाता हैं सो जाहिर सी बात हैं वो लोग हमारे हमारी संस्कृति के विरूद्व ही लिखेंगे | हमारी जो संस्कृति सदियों से चली आ रही हैं वो इस २१ वि सदी के आते ही एकदम कैसे ख़राब हो गई | हम लोग दूसरो की संस्कृति से जल्दी प्रभावित हो जाते हैं जबकि हमे करना चाहिए दूसरो को अपनी संस्कृति से प्रभावित |
'सांप ने के मारे सांप की माँ न मारे ' तो यह हत्याए रोकने के लिए कानून में संसोधन की जरुरत हैं और इसके लिए हमारे खाप के बड़े बुजुर्ग प्रयास कर रहे हैं | इस प्रकार की हत्या आदमी सामाजिक डर अर्र शर्म के कारण करता हैं अक लोग के कहेंगे | कबूलपुर के काण्ड से खाप का क्या लेना देना | अब यह मीडिया वाले इनके प्यार की वकालत भी करेंगे एक गोत्र के हुए तो क्या हुआ हरेक को अपना जीवन जीवन जीने का हक हैं | आजकल के बच्चे फ़िल्मी हो गए हैं इन्हें सिर्फ प्यार नजर आता हैं (इस प्यार के आगे माँ बाप का २० साल का प्यार भी फिंका पड़ जाता हैं , क्योंकि प्यार और हवस में फरक होता हैं जिसे ये बच्चे प्यार समझ रहें वो वास्तव में प्यार नहीं एक हवस मात्र हैं ) आजकल की फिल्मों में चाहे एक्शन मूवी हो भगत सिंह पर कोई मूवी हो इनने प्यार जरुर दिखाना हैं , एक गाँव में ही पडोस की छोरी त प्यार दिखावेंगे |

Ambijat
September 23rd, 2009, 02:08 AM
क्या यह जानने का प्रयास नहीं करना चाहिए कि आखिर सगोत्र विवाह के मामले हरियाणा में ही क्यो इस प्रकार से आ रहे हैं । अन्य जाट क्षेत्रो से क्यो नहीं । जाहिर है कि खाप की भूमिका इसमें महत्व रखती है । अब यह मान लेना चाहिए कि कुछ लचीलापन दिखाने की जरूरत है । गोत्र व पिंड को अलग करके देखना चाहिए क्योकि इसका अब ठोस आधार नहीं रहा है ।

rsdalal
September 23rd, 2009, 04:12 AM
Just for information, there were many incidents in West UP jatland villeges few years back. So it is not just Haryana.
Rajsthan, as LS burduck ji explained Khaps are not strong enough.
Regarding लचीलापन , it is relative term, as per one person Khaps are too much relaxed can be too rigid per another person.
Khaps change their rules with time. for instance Dahiya and Dabas Gott never used to have marriage alliances, but now it is allowed. Nani ka gott is relaxed now etc etc. What else they can relex depends on ourselves, as rightly said in above post Khaps are us only
....

क्या यह जानने का प्रयास नहीं करना चाहिए कि आखिर सगोत्र विवाह के मामले हरियाणा में ही क्यो इस प्रकार से आ रहे हैं । अन्य जाट क्षेत्रो से क्यो नहीं । जाहिर है कि खाप की भूमिका इसमें महत्व रखती है । अब यह मान लेना चाहिए कि कुछ लचीलापन दिखाने की जरूरत है । गोत्र व पिंड को अलग करके देखना चाहिए क्योकि इसका अब ठोस आधार नहीं रहा है ।

hoodarajesh
September 23rd, 2009, 12:09 PM
क्या यह जानने का प्रयास नहीं करना चाहिए कि आखिर सगोत्र विवाह के मामले हरियाणा में ही क्यो इस प्रकार से आ रहे हैं । अन्य जाट क्षेत्रो से क्यो नहीं । जाहिर है कि खाप की भूमिका इसमें महत्व रखती है । अब यह मान लेना चाहिए कि कुछ लचीलापन दिखाने की जरूरत है । गोत्र व पिंड को अलग करके देखना चाहिए क्योकि इसका अब ठोस आधार नहीं रहा है ।

क्यों भाई ये मामले पश्चिमी उत्तर परदेश और दिल्ल्ली में भी कई
बार आते है . और रही बात लचीला पण अपनाने की तो थोडी
सी ही डील देते ही ये प्यार मोहबत पड़ोस को तो छोडो घर में
ही चालू हो जायेंगे १०-२० साल बाद . इसलिए जो बच रहा है
उसको बचाए रखो . जाट बल्ट में मिडिया वाले भी तो कुछ जाट
होते है . पर अपने चैनल की टी आर पि बढाने के लिए ये लोग
अगर भैस भी कोई मरी दिख गई तो वही कैमरा फिट कर बोलने
लग जायेंगे की -- सगोत्र झोटे से ब्याह नही होने देने से पंचायत के
फरमान ने एक जिन्दगी और लील ली .
अब काबुल पुर वाले केस में भी बार बार टी.वि पर दिखा रहे की पंचायत
के भय के चलते लड़की ने यह कदम उठाया . जब की इस मामले में नै तो कोई
पंचायत हुई और नै ही किसी को पता था .

sunillathwal
September 23rd, 2009, 01:51 PM
@ Mod: Please delete this post.. Double posting.. (hence edited)

sunillathwal
September 23rd, 2009, 01:52 PM
अब काबुल पुर वाले केस में भी बार बार टी.वि पर दिखा रहे की पंचायत
के भय के चलते लड़की ने यह कदम उठाया . जब की इस मामले में नै तो कोई
पंचायत हुई और नै ही किसी को पता था .

Precisely... :)

Take any news paper published from anyplace in india.. north.. south.. anywhere, go to state news section.. One can always find news heading like:

=================
"Couple killed by girl's brother and his friends.."

"Boy/Girl commits suicide for not allowing to marry his/her lover..."

"Mr. X (mansik santulan theek nahi tha jiska) killed his mother in a fit of rage.."

"Mr. Y filed lodged FIR against Mr. Z for "meri beti ko bahla-fusla ke agwa kar liya gaya hai"

"Absconding couple found @ mmmdd"
========================

And it is not just the uneducated, or teenage girls/boys are going to such extremes like murdering others/themselves.
Last year only one PhD scholar (girl, about to finish her phd... 29+ aged) from my dept @IISc committed suicide, Reason was most common: parent objected/interfered!!

BTW, she was not JAT, neither her village (metro city to be precise) had any panchayat or Khaps.

I wonder what ppl, who are blaming Khap for anything (and everything happening in confinement of one's home), have to say here!! :)

Are Khaps/ Panchayats responsible (directly or INDIRECTLY) here?? :)

yudhvirmor
September 23rd, 2009, 02:14 PM
Precisely... :)

Take any news paper published from anyplace in india.. north.. south.. anywhere, go to state news section.. One can always find news heading like:

=================
"Couple killed by girl's brother and his friends.."

"Girl commits suicide for not allowing to marry his lover..."

"Mr. X (mansik santulan theek nahi tha jiska) killed his mother in a fit of rage.."

"Mr. Y filed lodged FIR against Mr. Z for "meri beti ko bahla-fusla ke agwa kar liya gaya hai"

"Absconding couple found @ mmmdd"
========================

And it is not just the uneducated, or teenage girls/boys are going to such extremes like murdering others/themselves.
Last year only one PhD scholar (girl, about to finish her phd... 29+ aged) from my dept @IISc committed suicide, Reason was most common: parent objected/interfered!!

BTW, she was not JAT, neither her village (metro city to be precise) had any panchayat or Khaps.

I wonder what ppl who are blaming Khap for anything (and everything happening in confinement of one's home) have to say here!! :)

Are Khaps/ Panchayats responsible (directly or INDIRECTLY) here?? :)

Its a question of Psyche... I was reading "I am OK You are OK" and found that most of us has Parent Ego problem... We always like to blame.. Khaps blame people like you & me (Munch kate ar Jeans alle balak) and we blame them( Illiterate Old Mustande)

sunillathwal
September 23rd, 2009, 04:25 PM
Its a question of Psyche... I was reading "I am OK You are OK" and found that most of us has Parent Ego problem... We always like to blame.. Khaps blame people like you & me (Munch kate ar Jeans alle balak) and we blame them( Illiterate Old Mustande)

Yudhvir Bhai, Generation gap is ok.. it had always been there and it will be there in future also. even in so called 'developed nations', generation-gap is there (though parent's objection list is different) But that is not the point here.

We are/were discussing about the role of Khaps/Panchayats in 'honor killings' and (recent) 'reverse honor killings'!!
I have already put my views in earlier posts in this thread regarding the inability/inaction/passiveness of Khap in these matters.

http://www.jatland.com/forums/showpost.php?p=224058&postcount=146

Progressive, evolving, mature, lachilee Khaps... great concept... utopian. It should be there. But should is a funny word. In an 'utopian' world there won't be any need of a Khap either!!

Many ppl are accusing khap of their DIRECT or INDIRECT involvement in 'honor killings'.
Strangely, nobody is talking about the parents responsibilities!!
As i already said, honor killing, suicides related issues are everywhere in India.. if Gotar is not an issue, then somewherecaste is or somewherestatus is or parent's whimsy objections are.
In most parts of india, Khaps doesn't exist BUT these issues does!!


How and why khaps are being dragged in [B]recent incident is beyond my understanding [whereas individuals are being let-off.] :confused:

All that i can say further: If Khaps/Pnachayats are uncivilized and barbaric.. believe me our cast, our ppl are far more savage and barbaric.. Here at JL itself many ppl are ok with 'honor killings', go to average Molads of villages and towns, hear their view regarding these issues.. :)

I strongly believe that our Panchayats/Khaps are a liberal, forward minded, milder (in some sense) and progressive reflection of our folks. if Khaps are not good enough, there is something horribly wrong with our cast/society and only time can fix that. :(

Ambijat
September 23rd, 2009, 10:09 PM
Just for information, there were many incidents in West UP jatland villeges few years back. So it is not just Haryana.
Rajsthan, as LS burduck ji explained Khaps are not strong enough.
Regarding लचीलापन , it is relative term, as per one person Khaps are too much relaxed can be too rigid per another person.
Khaps change their rules with time. for instance Dahiya and Dabas Gott never used to have marriage alliances, but now it is allowed. Nani ka gott is relaxed now etc etc. What else they can relex depends on ourselves, as rightly said in above post Khaps are us only
....
यह ठीक है कि राजस्थान में जाट एक अपवाद ही हैं कि वहाँ किसी प्रकार की खाप व्यवस्था नहीं है, पर यह जानने का कम प्रयास किया जाता है कि शायद यहाँ गोत्रों की विविधता भी अधिक है, जो कि इस प्रकार के संकट की संभावना को कम करता है . एक और तथ्य यह भी है कि राजस्थान में अंतरजातीय विवाह भी जाटों में स्वीकार्य हो रहे हैं . खाप व्यवस्था के लिए इन सभी परिस्थितियों में किसी भी प्रकार की भूमिका नहीं रह जाती है .
एक दलील बङी कमजोर दी जा रही है कि यदि खाप की परंपराएं नहीं रहीं तो कुल व गोत्रों में ही विवाह हो जाने लगेंगे . यदि युवा वर्ग का exposure अधिक होता है , तो वह इस प्रकार के झुकाव कम ही रखता है . यह उचित कहा गया है कि लचीलापन सापेक्ष तथ्य है पर शायद साधन संपन्न लोगों के लिए ज्यादा .

rakeshsehrawat
September 24th, 2009, 09:35 AM
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news/india/Moilys-Mission-Cut-case-life-from-15-years-to-1-year/articleshow/5047925.cms
Law minister Veerappa Moily is attempting the unthinkable -- reducing the life of litigation from an average 15 years at present to one year, and that too in just three years from now.

The `Mission Document', which his ministry is preparing to be used as a `roadmap' for judicial reforms, backs up this high-spirited plan with measures like setting up 5,000 new courts across the country that will work in three shifts -- morning, day and evening.

"The infrastructure will remain the same but we will get the work of 15,000 courts to liquidate the 2.74 crore cases, which are pending in trial courts clogging the wheels of justice and entailing a litigant's endless wait for a decision in his case," Moily told TOI in an interview.

To start with, there will be Gram Nyayalays, which will be functional from Gandhi Jayanti on October 2 this year, he said. "In the coming three years, we will set up 5,000 more courts with a clear mandate that from the time of filing of a case till its decision, no more than six months time should be taken," he said and hoped that a substantial percentage of the pendency would be wiped off.

These additional courts will be backed by a solid case management plan that includes clubbing identical cases. Importantly, a judge cannot keep his judgment reserved for a long time.

"While cutting down delay in completing the trial procedure for each case, there will be a time limit put on every judge to deliver his verdict," Moily said, adding, "The time limit for giving judgments after completion of hearing will also be applicable to judges of the High Courts and the Supreme Court."

In making functional the additional 5,000 courts, the services of retired judges will be requisitioned both in the trial courts and the High Courts, which are also reeling under a pendency of nearly 40 lakh cases. A retired district judge, whose services are requisitioned, could expect a fixed pay of Rs 50,000 per month.

"We will train and equip trial court judges, provide them with laptops. Information technology will play a huge role in faster disposal of cases with the help of additional courts," Moily said.

While taking care of procedural delays and providing additional manpower to deal with pendency, the law minister also wants to reduce filing of cases, the government being the biggest litigant in higher courts.

This problem of excessive litigation on behalf of the government has arisen because no officer is ready to stick his neck out for taking a decision not to approach a higher court in the fear of being pulled up later.

"We will evolve a policy to be followed by officers in taking decisions whether or not the government should file an appeal in the higher courts or not. Once the criteria for filing of an appeal is evolved, which would be a little conservative towards moving higher courts, I expect a drastic fall in governmental litigation," the law minister said.
Govt is also planning to requisition the services of retired judges to deal with the pendency of cases. A retired district judge could expect a fixed pay of Rs 50,000 per month.
“We will train and equip trial court judges, provide them with laptops. Information technology will play a huge role in faster disposal of cases with the help of additional courts,” law minister Veerappa Moily said. While taking care of procedural delays and providing additional manpower to deal with pendency, the law minister also wants to reduce filing of cases, the government being the biggest litigant in higher courts.
This problem of excessive litigation on behalf of the government has arisen because no officer is ready to stick his neck out for taking a decision not to approach a higher court in the fear of being pulled up later.

Kehte hain doosre ki thali mein ghee jyada hi nazar aata hai.
Govt. is taking intiative to make similar type of structure as we are having from centuries.

ARVINDJANGU
September 24th, 2009, 11:09 AM
ढाका साहब क्या राजस्थान के जाटों में सगोत्र विवाह का रिवाज हैं ? रही बात खाप के लचीलेपन की तो जैसा दलाल साहब ने बताया हैं के समय अनुसार खाप अपना लचीलापन दिखाती रही हैं , पहले हम चार गोत्र टालते थे जिसमे नानी का गोत्र भी सम्मलित था | जैसे जैसे रिश्ता करने में कठिनाइया आने लगी खाप ने " नानी कानि " कर दी | गौरतलब बात यह हैं के जाटों में करीब ४००० गोत्र हैं , गोत्र बढे हैं घटे नहीं फिर ये हालत क्यों हुए हैं ? जैसा की जस्टिस तेवतिया साहब ने रोहतक की एक खाप पंचायत में कहा के हमे रिश्ते दूर दराज के जाटों से भी करना चाहिए जबकि हमारी कोशिश येही रहती हैं के रिश्ता पास ही हो दूर न जाना पड़े | जब तक ऐसी सोच रहेगी तो रिश्तों में दिक्कत आएगी | (आजकल जो जाट शहरों में रह रहे हैं उनको रिश्ता करने में सबसे ज्यादा दिक्कत का सामना करना पड़ता हैं क्योकि वो लोग सामाजिक न रहकर अपने काम अपने परिवार तक सीमित रहते हैं , और बाद में मत्रिमोनिअल का सहारा लेते हैं) |
यह गोत्र रिवाज कोई आजका नहीं हैं और ना ही यह केवल हरियाणा उत्तरप्रदेश दिल्ली के जाटों में हैं बल्कि इसको पंजाब के सिक्ख जाट भी मानते हैं | प्रोफ़ेसर बी. स. ढिल्लों ने भी इस गोत्र विवाह का हवाला अपनी किताब में दिया हैं "On Jat marriages, Major Barstow [5] wrote," Every Jat clan is exogamous, i.e., while every person "must" marry a Jat of opposite sex, no person "can" marry into his/her own clan (or his/her) mother's clan (about fifty years ago this was also applicable to the grandmother's clan as well), as such a union would be regarded as incest. Besides the above restrictions, it is unusual for a person to marry into a family of whatever clan it may be that settled in his/her own village. Unions between persons of different religion are forbidden, but for this purpose no difference is made between Punjabi Jats who are Hindus and Jats who are Sikhs". "
आज हमारी भारत सरकार भी पंचायत प्रणाली को मानती हैं | इस पंचायत प्रणाली को संविधान में भी मान्यता दे रखी हैं | यह पंचायती राज जाटों की देन हैं , और आज सरकार इसी खाप पंचायत को गलत करार देने पर आमदा हैं इसको ban करने की सोच रही हैं | पंचायती राज पर प्रोफ़ेसर बी.स.ढिल्लों ने लिखा हैं "An eminent Sikh scholar, Khushwant Singh [10], said it was the Jats who introduced the panchayat system (a body of five elected people that is widely practiced in modern India). In fact, he wrote, "They (Jats) brought with them certain institutions, the most important being the pancayat (panchayat), an elected body of five elders, to which they pledged their allegiance. Every Jat village was a small republic".
More information on Panchayats see Ref. [5] page 163. Interestingly, this highlights the fact that the modern Jats have kept this tradition alive for hundreds of years. For example, Ammianus Marcellinus [11], a fourth century Roman, wrote, ""all are born of noble blood, and moreover they (Alani a branch of the Massagetae or "great" Jats) choose chiefs those men who are conspicuous for long experience as warriors".
आज के "TOI" में कबूलपुर काण्ड पर एक खबर छपी हैं जिसमे फिर से खाप को गलत करार देने की कोशिश की हैं | page no.10 पर जिसमे लड़की का ब्यान इस प्रकार हैं " i knew our realtionship would not acceptable to our parents and society " Asked whether she was aware of social norms that forbid same gotra marriage , she replied in the affirmative . " लेकिन जो प्यार करते हैं उनको शादी करने देना चाहिए ." और लड़की के आशिक ( भाई ) नवीन का ब्यान इस तरह से हैं " we may be held gulity under the law , but i hold the khaaps responsible for this "
अब बताओ इसमें खाप का के कसूर स | क्यों खाप ने कोसे स ? काल न कोई भाई न्यू कहेगा के म तो अपनी माजाई बहिन से शादी करूँगा तो इसको समाज कैसे क़बूल करेगा | अब तक जो गाँव आबाद हैं क्या वो बिना प्यार के आबाद हो गए ? क्या हमारे माँ बाप दादा दादी ने बिना प्यार के यो कुणबा जोड़ दिया ? आजकल आले इन नई नसल आल्या का बेरा न कुणसा प्यार स यो ?
( इनकी करतूत देख के इसा डर लागन लाग्या के इब अगर मेरा छोरा भी न्यू कह्देगा न अक बाबू म तो अपनी माँ / बाहन गेल्या ब्याह करूँगा तो मैंने न्यू ए कहनी पड़ेगी के बटेऊ कर लिए पर मेरी कदे सूते की नाड़ ना तार दिए खाप आल्या न मैं आपे देख ल्यूँगा) ;)|

yudhvirmor
September 24th, 2009, 11:58 AM
Yudhvir Bhai, Generation gap is ok.. it had always been there and it will be there in future also. even in so called 'developed nations', generation-gap is there (though parent's objection list is different) But that is not the point here.

We are/were discussing about the role of Khaps/Panchayats in 'honor killings' and (recent) 'reverse honor killings'!!
I have already put my views in earlier posts in this thread regarding the inability/inaction/passiveness of Khap in these matters.

http://www.jatland.com/forums/showpost.php?p=224058&postcount=146

Progressive, evolving, mature, lachilee Khaps... great concept... utopian. It should be there. But should is a funny word. In an 'utopian' world there won't be any need of a Khap either!!

Many ppl are accusing khap of their DIRECT or INDIRECT involvement in 'honor killings'.
Strangely, nobody is talking about the parents responsibilities!!
As i already said, honor killing, suicides related issues are everywhere in India.. if Gotar is not an issue, then somewherecaste is or somewherestatus is or parent's whimsy objections are.
In most parts of india, Khaps doesn't exist BUT these issues does!!


How and why khaps are being dragged in [B]recent incident is beyond my understanding [whereas individuals are being let-off.] :confused:

All that i can say further: If Khaps/Pnachayats are uncivilized and barbaric.. believe me our cast, our ppl are far more savage and barbaric.. Here at JL itself many ppl are ok with 'honor killings', go to average Molads of villages and towns, hear their view regarding these issues.. :)

I strongly believe that our Panchayats/Khaps are a liberal, forward minded, milder (in some sense) and progressive reflection of our folks. if Khaps are not good enough, there is something horribly wrong with our cast/society and only time can fix that. :(


I strongly agree with you buddy. We need khap panchyats and its our tradition. Jats are more often are on target because we are half cooked.. we are not like tribes of Bihar/chatisgarh/AP and also doesn't belong to elite club of socialites.. I found it silly that people are saying that she killed her family because she had fear that they'll kill her.. To be very practical, it was better option for her parents to kill her (Read Honor Killing), In that scenario ratio would be 1:7....

You have raised valid point that whom to blame and whom to trust.. I understand parents play important role in shaping up the personalities of their wards. However, We can't guarantee that parents will succeed. 2nd Control gate is education institutes ( I did my 10th in 1996 and we had good strength of gals in class and I don't remember if anybody was dating any gal from our section/class/school). However, Its very common now days and even parents know that their children are romantically involved (In case of Gals, only mother knows about her just friends ;))

Things are changing because world is evolving (It used to take around 2-3 months to purpose a gal. You need to find her friend then you need to find her school/tuition timings then you need some expert who can pen down some golden words on piece of golden paper). Now its just sms away..
Our tradition has been left out from this evolution and we never thought to discuss about these challenges and society leader failed to incorporate these changes. Same is true for parents.

I feel situation is quite explosive and learning about tradition are coming with violent means.. These kind of incidents may send strong message to our young generation that we need to be little more disciplined and there are lots of way to spend time other than chit chatting on Nokia phones with Tata connections...

kusumdhochak
September 24th, 2009, 03:50 PM
Some people here use this argument that if we ignore these cases and don't take strong actions (even of the order of honour killing), people will start marrying their cousin sisters/brothers. But I don't see the reason for their fears. There are communities/places where there are no such actions taken and people are not marrying their cousins. People grow up playing with their cousins treating them as their sisters and brothers and there is no reason why they will on some day decide to get married. When we speculate about something, we should atleast see around for contradictions.

Some people are relating panchayats with honor killing while others differ. One can agree may be that panchayats are not involved in killings but what about forcing the familises or the couple to leave the village, or live separately etc. Those are big enough problems for the couples. moreover the family itself does not define the ijjat etc of that home, it is also how the society reacts to it. If the society and neihbourhood left these people and their families alone and the panchayts did not pass resolutions against them, families will most probably not think of killing their kids.

Mishti
September 24th, 2009, 04:47 PM
[QUOTE=dskadyan;218706]As Lawyer For Human Rights International Filed a case in Punjab and Haryana High Court for abolishing Khap panchayats and verdicts passed by them.

No doubt you've made an important point Sir. What I think is we should keep our ethnicity intact whether there is any amendment in Hindu marriage Act or not relating the incestous marriages within same gotras. We should take an initiative to bring it to the kind notice of our law-makers and till this amendment happens it is the moral duty of parents and elders to teach their wards about our customs and beliefs.

Ambijat
September 24th, 2009, 10:59 PM
ढाका साहब क्या राजस्थान के जाटों में सगोत्र विवाह का रिवाज हैं ? रही बात खाप के लचीलेपन की तो जैसा दलाल साहब ने बताया हैं के समय अनुसार खाप अपना लचीलापन दिखाती रही हैं , पहले हम चार गोत्र टालते थे जिसमे नानी का गोत्र भी सम्मलित था | जैसे जैसे रिश्ता करने में कठिनाइया आने लगी खाप ने " नानी कानि " कर दी | गौरतलब बात यह हैं के जाटों में करीब ४००० गोत्र हैं , गोत्र बढे हैं घटे नहीं फिर ये हालत क्यों हुए हैं ? जैसा की जस्टिस तेवतिया साहब ने रोहतक की एक खाप पंचायत में कहा के हमे रिश्ते दूर दराज के जाटों से भी करना चाहिए जबकि हमारी कोशिश येही रहती हैं के रिश्ता पास ही हो दूर न जाना पड़े | जब तक ऐसी सोच रहेगी तो रिश्तों में दिक्कत आएगी | (आजकल जो जाट शहरों में रह रहे हैं उनको रिश्ता करने में सबसे ज्यादा दिक्कत का सामना करना पड़ता हैं क्योकि वो लोग सामाजिक न रहकर अपने काम अपने परिवार तक सीमित रहते हैं , और बाद में मत्रिमोनिअल का सहारा लेते हैं) |....

राजस्थान में नानी का गोत्र भी टाला जाता है । अपवाद इसलिए कि राजस्थान में न तो खाप हैं न ही सगोत्र विवाह के मामले और नहीं honour killing के . इसका मतलब है कि यह तीनो चीज हरियाणा के परदृश्य में परस्पर संबंध रखती हैं , तथा इनका हल इस परिस्थिति को संबोधित किये बिना नहीं निकलने वाला.

और यदि बात सगोत्र के सवाल तक रहती तो शायद इतना बवाल नहीं होता, पर अब मामला पिंड स्तर पर पहुँच गया कि गाँव के सभी गोत्र सपिँड मान लिए गये, जैसे कि हाल ही में एक गहलोत परिवार के मामले में सामने आया, तब सोचना चाहिए कि कहाँ तक ऐसी कट्टरता ठीक है. और भी कई दकियानूसी उदाहरण हैं . लचीलापन इन मामलो में ही संदर्भ निहित है । चार गोत्र टालने का मामला शायद ही कभी विवाद में आया हो, फिर भी यह तो मानना होगा कि जो इसको भी नहीं मान रहे उनके मानवाधिकारो का हनन करने का अधिकार किसी भी खाप पंचायत को नही है , उनके जीवन को क्षति पहुँचाने का तो बिलकुल नहीं .

ARVINDJANGU
September 26th, 2009, 11:30 AM
मैं भी राजस्थान के चिडावा शहर के कादियान गोत्र के जाटों में ब्याह राख्या सु | मैंने इस तरफ कभी कोई भी ऐसी शादी नहीं देखि जो गाँव की गाँव में हुई हो | रही बात सपिंड की तो आज तक किसे माँ बाप ने इस रीति के खिलाफ आवाज़ या ऐतराज नहीं जताया जिनने अपने बालका के ब्याह की ज्यादा चिन्ता हो स | यह रोला तो सिर्फ आजकल के यह " जुगनू " ही कर रहे हैं | इनकी गिनती भी इतनी कोणी के इनके लिए पूरी सामाजिक व्यवस्था बदलनी पड़े | इनकी मान भी लोगे तो फेर काल न इनके घर भी उझङते हान्डेगे क्योकि इन "जुग्नुआ" ने सिर्फ रात रात दिखे स न्यू ना बेरा अक दिन भी निकलेगा |
रही बात मानवधिकार आल्या की तो इनने तो 377 भी सही लागे स , उसका क्या ?

Ambijat
September 26th, 2009, 06:41 PM
जो जुगनुओं का पीछा करते हैं वही नाउम्मीदी के अंधेरे से बाहर आते हैं, आपने नहीं देखी यह पूरी समझ का बङा ही कमजोर आधार है, सिरसा में ऐसे पर्याप्त उदाहरण हैं । सामाजिक व्यवस्था बदली नहीं जाती है, बदलाव अपने आप आता है, जरूरत इस बदलाव को समझने की ताकि टकराव को टाला जा सके । दिन का सवेरा उनके लिए मायने नहीं रखता जो भोर से पहले मंजिल के लिए निकल पङते हैं । और परिवर्तन चाहने वाले ऐसे ही लोग होते हैं । हर बात का जवाब हो ऐसा आवश्यक नहीं पर हर बात की समझ होना जरूरी है ।

Samarkadian
October 5th, 2009, 07:35 PM
राजस्थान में नानी का गोत्र भी टाला जाता है । अपवाद इसलिए कि राजस्थान में न तो खाप हैं न ही सगोत्र विवाह के मामले और नहीं honour killing के . इसका मतलब है कि यह तीनो चीज हरियाणा के परदृश्य में परस्पर संबंध रखती हैं , तथा इनका हल इस परिस्थिति को संबोधित किये बिना नहीं निकलने वाला.

और यदि बात सगोत्र के सवाल तक रहती तो शायद इतना बवाल नहीं होता, पर अब मामला पिंड स्तर पर पहुँच गया कि गाँव के सभी गोत्र सपिँड मान लिए गये, जैसे कि हाल ही में एक गहलोत परिवार के मामले में सामने आया, तब सोचना चाहिए कि कहाँ तक ऐसी कट्टरता ठीक है. और भी कई दकियानूसी उदाहरण हैं . लचीलापन इन मामलो में ही संदर्भ निहित है । चार गोत्र टालने का मामला शायद ही कभी विवाद में आया हो, फिर भी यह तो मानना होगा कि जो इसको भी नहीं मान रहे उनके मानवाधिकारो का हनन करने का अधिकार किसी भी खाप पंचायत को नही है , उनके जीवन को क्षति पहुँचाने का तो बिलकुल नहीं .

Dhaka Saab and All,

Have a look here:-

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news/city/chandigarh/Bucking-trend-Jats-cock-a-snook-at-khaps/articleshow/5001464.cms


Often loathed for its mediaeval faith in khap (caste) panchayats that rip apart lovers defying the ban on marriages within the same
village and sometimes in the neighbourhood, the Jat community has thrown up a surprise in the form of a few hamlets, including Chautala, where young couples are not hounded in the name of brotherhood norms.

DR Chaudhry, member of Haryana Administrative Reforms Commission, belongs to Chautala in Sirsa and so does his wife. “Not just me, but many others have been married within the village and nobody has ever raised questions,” said Chaudhry, adding, “there is this vast Jat belt extending from Fatehabad district in Haryana to Abohar-Fazilka in Punjab and Sri Ganganagar, Bikaner, Jaisalmer and Barmer in Rajasthan where there is no khap system and marriages within the same village and gotra (sub-caste) are quite common.”


The wife of Devi Lal’s son and deputy chairman of state planning board, Ranjeet Singh, is from Ganganagar but her mother belongs to Chautala. “Ours is a very large village consisting of 10,000 voters. Though such marriages are taking place, it’s not always possible to avoid traditions and customs prevalent in other Jat areas,” said Ranjeet.

Others who have cocked a snook at the archaic khap norm are former MLA Brijlal Godara, farmer Devi Lal Godara from Chautala, Mani Ram Bishnoi of Gorakhpur, former chairman of panchayat samiti, Fatehabad, Krishan Rohaj of Bharola Wali and block samiti chairman Pratap Singh Sai of Bhattu Kalan — he has, in fact, married twice and both wives are alive. A large number of such instances are also available in Pilimandori, Badopal, Khajuri and Mohamadpur Rohi villages in Fatehabad district.

But everybody is not so fortunate. “We have been compelled to commit suicide...,” went the death note of a couple in Bosti village, Fatehabad. Similarly, in Hisar’s Bheri Akabarpur village, an SC couple, belonging to different castes, was reportedly driven to end their lives by a belligerent society.

But strange are the ways of these haters of ‘love within village’ for they don’t seem to mind people buying girls from West Bengal, Bihar, Assam and Nepal to cope with the growing army of bachelors in a state weighed down by a skewed sex ratio. “In reality, reactionary forces are against marriages of choice due to their tribal mindset,” concluded Shakuntala Jhakar, state secretary of All-India Democratic Women’s Association.

Fateh
October 6th, 2009, 10:39 PM
Though it is a big discussion but in brief I would like to submit to our brothers few of my views for consideration please.
1) Khanp panchayat system is very old & it has a long History available in black & white. As for as Rajesthan is concern, due to low social status of jats in the society, the role of khanp panchayat was performed by the Rajput leader of the village/ area.
2) Khanp panchayat system is much older than the judicial system. In fact at some stage these khanp panchayats were holding judicial responsibilities of prosecuting & defending specially in cases of social nature.
3) Khanp panchayats are ment to mantain social order discipline in the society, name/ fame of the community, protection/ help of weak/ poor, Impart knowledge , guidance & ensure implimentation of traditions/ customs/practices of social nature.
4) They are managed by very experienced, capable, reputed caltured &elderly people.
5) Their system of inquiry & decesion making/pernouncement is democratic, transparent, deliberate& grants equal opportunity to both sides. The fact is that the system is much batter, farer & faster than the present judicial system of the country.
6) fronkly speaking no killing ordered by these panchayats, either the families concern or individuals concern are responsible for such in human /illegal acts.
7) Need of the hour:-
a) Proper bringing up of children.
b) proper knowledge about our traditions, social customs & the
khanp panchayat system to our yougth & the media.
c) Involvement of yougth is social & khanp actiities.
d) Proper management of the media.
e) Khanp managers have to be more practical, flexible, tranparent & have to keep the law of the land in view while deciding such cases. The social problem has to be solved socially.
f) our traditions/social customs required to be writen & get them approved by our exicutive as well as judiciary.
g) Hindu marriage act needs to be amended accordingly.
h) Finally, such unsocial acts by our yougth needs to be handled in a very mature manner by the families concern.

Fateh
October 7th, 2009, 10:31 AM
May I add one more point that in most of the cases, the khanp panchayat comes in when judicial & local efforts fails. I donot mean that sucess rate of these panchayats is 100% but certainly in such social matters these panchayats do batter job.These panchayats donot stop anybody to take legal course/action. I would like to request elderly people to recollect their memories & tell us the difference in the state of discipline, day today fighting, court cases, enemity etc in the villages during the period when the panchayati raj has not started by the govt & now when these official panchayats are playing various roles. I request to my young brothers to takeup a special study and find out the above mentioned difference of the state in the villages. Fronkly speaking after these elected panchayats have started working in villages, the peace, harmony, respect/love for each other, cooperation, helping hand etc has vanished from the villages. Gentilemen, khanp panchayats had been part of our calture for ages & as long as we follow our calture these panchayats will remain an important part of the calture. Regards

Ambijat
October 11th, 2009, 10:57 PM
Dhaka Saab and All,

Have a look here:-

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/n...ow/5001464.cms (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news/city/chandigarh/Bucking-trend-Jats-cock-a-snook-at-khaps/articleshow/5001464.cms)

Often loathed for its mediaeval faith in khap (caste) panchayats that rip apart lovers defying the ban on marriages within the same
village and sometimes in the neighbourhood, the Jat community has thrown up a surprise in the form of a few hamlets, including Chautala, where young couples are not hounded in the name of brotherhood norms.Thanks! for putting up, I have already referred in my previous posts about Sirsa. And, these can be trend setters, however I doubt if moneyed and landlord class would take a liberal view of it. Because it would hurt them in their class interest. I always try to say that it is not solely a caste matter it is lot more to with class. And, these marital norms are more into the business of intra-gotra and intra-pind stratification which would only harm the jats in the long run.

Interestingly, some commentators have quipped about these acts as 'tribal mindsets'. I would like to plead the case for the tribals here as the Bhils and Garasias of Rajasthan whom I have known so long. Not a single marriage in the Bhils is solemnised by the parents. It is their perhaps most liberal form of custom that they identify their partners in village fair and then when they talk with each other about each other's acceptance that then the parents step in. So, in my view tribals are more progressive so far as these marital norms are concerned.
I would request not to malign the tribals for the sake of the convenience of the argument.
Thanks!

Arvindc
October 12th, 2009, 05:06 PM
The strange thing is that these haters of ‘love within village’ will often cast a blind eye to the incedents of eve teasing by the same vilagers. And if the things get worse, then the eve teasing, it is always the fairsex who is reprimanded.

Khap Panchayat is an issue raised for political calculations rather then to tackle any Judicial issues.

BLBijarniyan
January 9th, 2010, 02:38 PM
In our social system the Gotra separation for atleast 4 Gotras are very human & scientifically correct system which was adoped by our community since many centuries of socialism this system is very important in scientifically correct method of marriages in between two famalies & it should be followed for maintaining the social system of our Jat community because it is the real judicial system. Permission for marriages in real Gotra is not acceptable by the community & in that case there is no difference between animals, birds & human being. So the system adopted by our forefather's is the correct & scientifically fit system & it should be protected by social thinkers/think tanks of Jat community otherwise our breed will be colepsed badly in future & breavery of Jat community will be badly damaged by non-social youngers of our community because they are not knowing the social responsibilities for our Jat community & it is not out of way to say that they are doing like Hindi version *Pyar mein andhe Kya kar lenge Khanp ke Bande* but the historian Jats are not animals or birds.

sanjaymalik
February 9th, 2010, 02:13 PM
The UPA government is readying an amendment to the Indian Penal Code to make honour killings a ‘‘distinct offence’’ so that deterrent punishment can be handed out to khap panchayats that order death penalty for young couples who marry defying caste barriers. The bill will look at distinguishing honour killings from ordinary murders by widening its definition under Section 302.
http://epaper.timesofindia.com/Daily/skins/TOINEW/navigator.asp?Daily=CAP&showST=true&login=default&pub=TOI

at page 14.

vikasJAT
February 13th, 2010, 02:35 PM
Bhaisahab kyonki yahan par mathematical theory nahi chalti ki a = 2 and b= 2 so a=b.

Agar mein kah deta huu ke chhore ke byah mein, chhora barat le kar jata hai ladki ke yahan aur shadi kar ke lata hai. Tum puchoge "Kya ladki ki bhi shadi hoyee ke?", i will tell haan, toh kya tum yeh puchoge ki ladki bhi barat le kar aa saktee hai pher toh?".

Toh tu hi bata de kya yeh possible hai???






bhai kadyan yo b hoya se beri me k ek chori barat lekar aayi ,khud ghodi pe baith kr aayi aur chore te shadi kar li.....na bera ho to beri me thare kise bhi kadyan bhai te puch liye............isliye kuch b ho sakta h kuch ni bera bhai.................

ab serious baat karte hain:-->

bhai haryane me aajkal in gotra k karan bahut bura kaam hon lagra h,kuch to bhai gotre bhi ghane hoge, shadi k time
papa,
mummy,
dadi,
nani
sab k got dekhe se,aur kite n kite got mile ja se........esa hoyi pache rishta toot ja se jiste bhai sab dukhi to hove se,lekin aajkal hum jise jawan balak ya baat samjhte ni gotra ki aur koi b galat kadam utha leva sa......
Jaha tak main sochu su jo ya khap panchayat h ya kuch galat decision bhi le se,....jaise ki thode din pehla ek admi gela hua tha ki uske ek balak bhi hogya tha shadi pache aur shadi n b 3-4 saal hoge the aur shadi bhi puri barat le jake pure gaam wala k samne hui thi,lekin baad me jab panchayat hui to panchayat boli us admi te ki tu apni patni (wife) ne behan man le.....bhai tham khud bataio jab shadi hui to panchayat kit jari thi?panchayat ne 3 saal pache bade sapne aaye ki gotre mile se?aur koi bhi admi apni patni ne ek balak hoyi pache behan kyukar maan lega?bhai tham sare nu batayio ki is mamle me panchayat ka decision kitna thek se??
bhai shadi k time maa aur papa ka gotra ni milna chahiye ye baat thek se lekin apne to satgamme ka bhi ghana checkkr hove se.
jat bhaiyo mane kuch galat bola ho to vo bhi bata diyo....................


vikas dhankhar

malikdeepak1
February 19th, 2010, 08:48 AM
For those who are die hard supporters of Panchayats or Khap panchayats..

http://in.jagran.yahoo.com/news/local/haryana/4_6_6195212.html

rana1
February 19th, 2010, 09:21 AM
bhai kadyan yo b hoya se beri me k ek chori barat lekar aayi ,khud ghodi pe baith kr aayi aur chore te shadi kar li.....na bera ho to beri me thare kise bhi kadyan bhai te puch liye............isliye kuch b ho sakta h kuch ni bera bhai.................

ab serious baat karte hain:-->

bhai haryane me aajkal in gotra k karan bahut bura kaam hon lagra h,kuch to bhai gotre bhi ghane hoge, shadi k time
papa,
mummy,
dadi,
nani
sab k got dekhe se,aur kite n kite got mile ja se........esa hoyi pache rishta toot ja se jiste bhai sab dukhi to hove se,lekin aajkal hum jise jawan balak ya baat samjhte ni gotra ki aur koi b galat kadam utha leva sa......


vikas dhankhar

na ji sarpanch sahab bhout sahi kahii apnee agee t dhyaan rakhaa ge ....


nani ka to bhout pahle hata deya tha or ab 1,2 saal pahle dadi ka bhi hata deya

deepshi
August 24th, 2010, 08:53 AM
I strongly believe that our Panchayats/Khaps are a liberal, forward minded, milder (in some sense) and progressive reflection of our folks. if Khaps are not good enough, there is something horribly wrong with our cast/society and only time can fix that. :(

Right.....

sanjaymalik
September 20th, 2010, 03:42 PM
Why blame only Haryana, UP, etc or specially Jat when khap panchyat system is present every where and reserving the indian culture & values in south Indian states also.
Whether people accept this or not the khap system is universal phenomana in India. form J & K to Kanyakumari. and these are the necessary institution to govern far reached villages for preservation of social value & culture etc.

Women targeted in TN ‘honour’ killings



As Centre Mulls Khap Law, TN Turns Blind Eye To Caste Murders In Its Backyard


Jaya Menon | TNN



Chennai: In Sivaganga district of south Tamil Nadu, an agrarian pocket made famous by its high profile MP and home minister, P Chidambaram, 39 women committed suicide from January 2008 to June 2010. Not far away and neighbouring Madurai in the south, Theni district, which holds Andipatti, where former chief minister and AIADMK leader J Jayalalithaa contests for the assembly elections, 82 suicides by women were recorded by the police during the same period. In Virudhunagar district, 90 suicides were recorded and Thoothukudi 136.
The statistics may appear innocuous, though worrying, as all these districts are categorised as caste-sensitive. Activists in the region are waking up to a new possibility - that these suicides could well be driven by 'caste honour'. The figures are replies to RTI queries to district authorities by a Madurai-based NGO, Evidence.
"We are beginning to believe that many of these suicides are actually instigated and could even be murders, but registered by the police under IPC as suicides," says A Kathir of Evidence, an NGO campaigning for the cause of dalits. And there are cases, eye-witnesses and even police records to confirm this - some buried away deep in Tamil Nadu's agrarian backyard, but some still smouldering evidence of deep-rooted inter-caste jealousy and hatred. "In the last three months alone, there have been six cases of honour killings in Tamil Nadu" he says, pointing out that in almost all the cases, the alleged murders were a fallout of caste hatred. "And in five of the six cases, it is the women who were either murdered or driven to suicide."
As the Centre mulls an amendment to the Indian Evidence Act (in the wake of a recent rash of 'honour' killings in the north, instigated by Khap panchayats), which seeks to put the onus on the caste councils to prove their innocence and make them equally culpable, murders and instigated suicides to uphold "honour" continue in Tamil Nadu's caste-sensitive southern districts.
According to CPM state secretariat member P Sampath, half-hearted attempts by successive governments in the state to bridge intercaste hostility -the statesponsored social justice tea parties, samathuvapurams (egalitarian colonies) and cash incentives for intercaste marriages - are mere cosmetic efforts that fail to hide the lack of political will and blatant attempts to nurture caste groups and stoke hatred. "The government is neither keen on a legislation nor do they have a proper social outlook. They see casterelated issues as a law and order problem," says Sampath.
In some cases, police who have a crucial role to play in creating awareness, help to hide the crime, registering killings as suicides. "There has to be social awareness," admits DGP Letika Saran, who feels the media has a "greater role" to play in this.

ravichaudhary
September 20th, 2010, 06:11 PM
Sanjay and others

Please add the link always.

We need that to respond to and educate the media

Ravi chaudhary

sanjaymalik
September 20th, 2010, 07:01 PM
Sanjay and others

Please add the link always.

We need that to respond to and educate the media

Ravi chaudhary

Revi ji, please see link today's the same TOI.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Now-honour-suicides-in-TN/articleshow/6588411.cms

narendersingh
October 24th, 2010, 08:31 AM
The Khap panchayat in true sense, gave proper justice and dictates after proper scrutinizing the case. Now the ignorant world (Jaankar Bhi Anjaan Banti hai)although they know the power of THE KHAPS. But the topic is that they have to remain in opposition(AADAT SEY LACHAR HAI) ,however and whatever the topic may be.They damn care the consequences.Now the thing is that "KHACHAR KEY BEEZ ZYADAA KHEEND GAYE".Rahee Baat JAT Kee Iskey Do hee Dushman Hai-JAT AND NON JAT.
I agree today there are lot of changes.The changes are natural but we should not derail from the original path,the way it use to be.We should retain our old GLORY.

cooljat
March 8th, 2011, 02:22 PM
.

At last some sane news by Media .. nevertheless Cheers to Khaps for sucha good advisory!


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/delhi/Khaps-for-thrift-in-marriages/articleshow/7650961.cms (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/delhi/Khaps-for-thrift-in-marriages/articleshow/7650961.cms)

Jat khaps have come out with a marriage advisory - two gold rings as gifts, only a day of celebrations, single and simple meals, minimum baratis, no display of guns or shooting in the air, and no DJs. These suggestions were made at the centenary celebration of Jat Mahapanchayat (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/topic/search?q=Jat%20Mahapanchayat) in Sonipat on Monday to save the community, which has been spending heavily in marriages. In some cases, families have gone bankrupt after spending more than they could afford


Cheers
Jit

singhvp
March 8th, 2011, 02:37 PM
.

At last some sane news by Media .. nevertheless Cheers to Khaps for sucha good advisory!


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/delhi/Khaps-for-thrift-in-marriages/articleshow/7650961.cms (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/delhi/Khaps-for-thrift-in-marriages/articleshow/7650961.cms)

Jat khaps have come out with a marriage advisory - two gold rings as gifts, only a day of celebrations, single and simple meals, minimum baratis, no display of guns or shooting in the air, and no DJs. These suggestions were made at the centenary celebration of Jat Mahapanchayat (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/topic/search?q=Jat%20Mahapanchayat) in Sonipat on Monday to save the community, which has been spending heavily in marriages. In some cases, families have gone bankrupt after spending more than they could afford


Cheers
Jit



A good Advisory. Really appreciable.

Fateh
March 14th, 2011, 07:13 PM
Bhai, kHAP PANCHAYATS, had been doing always good for the community concern and the society as whole, but unfortunately , some selfish people who donot have any connection with such organisations, are spoiling the name of khap panchayats and our uneducated media & yougth, lack understanding about such panchayats, ofcourse some panchayat elders are not changing as per the time and circumstances. The institution of khap has proved its worth for the period we have history & memories with us regards

narendersingh
March 17th, 2011, 11:19 AM
Bhai, kHAP PANCHAYATS, had been doing always good for the community concern and the society as whole, but unfortunately , some selfish people who donot have any connection with such organisations, are spoiling the name of khap panchayats and our uneducated media & yougth, lack understanding about such panchayats, ofcourse some panchayat elders are not changing as per the time and circumstances. The institution of khap has proved its worth for the period we have history & memories with us regards


I do agree on your views expressed.Group of ignorant,arrogant stuff(They have no human values ) are coming forward. False lime light.

phoolkumar
September 21st, 2013, 05:23 PM
“You are invited to SarvKhap meeting at Rohtak on issue of Honor Killing and related concerns”

Agenda brief: Program will start by offering a tribute to people who got killed in Muzaffarnagar riots. Call is sent to all caste representatives of Khaps across communities; main motto of the meeting is to condemn the Rohtak Honor Killing incident and to deliver the message that they don't support any honor killing. Further to submit a memorandum to president and PM of India to make the legal machinery more effective to prevent such cases in future. And some more points relevant to same issues would be discussed. A special press session is also scheduled to answer questions of press lobby……

Timing: Tomorrow 22 Sept 2013, around 9 or 10am depending on gathering on spot.

Venue: Arya Choupal, Prem Nagar-Hafed Road, Rohtak-Haryana.

Meeting convener: Jasbir Singh Malik, Mb: 9355675622

Note: Please be in touch with the convener of meeting for any last moment change in program.

desijat
January 24th, 2014, 09:29 PM
WB: Khap-ordered gang-rape of tribal girl sparks outrage; 13 arrested - See more at: http://www.mid-day.com/articles/wb-khap-ordered-gang-rape-of-tribal-girl-sparks-outrage-13-arrested/15045003#sthash.oW2RSSCX.dpuf

Google and you will find more such news where media will blame Khap for west bengal rape.


Point- Should not media issue a corrigendum?

krishdel
January 25th, 2014, 10:05 PM
This is all propaganda against the JATS , some person knowingly do this, otherwise how can be Khap in Bengal, Khap was just concept of Haryana , West UP & Rajastahan, Punjab. Please post reply at this site if possible and make them understand that Khap are even opposite of marriage in same village and how can they think so dirty. Also make them aware that Khan was prevalent just in Haryana, West UP ,Rajasthan & Punjab.



WB: Khap-ordered gang-rape of tribal girl sparks outrage; 13 arrested - See more at: http://www.mid-day.com/articles/wb-khap-ordered-gang-rape-of-tribal-girl-sparks-outrage-13-arrested/15045003#sthash.oW2RSSCX.dpuf

Google and you will find more such news where media will blame Khap for west bengal rape.


Point- Should not media issue a corrigendum?