but........

[psdahiya]

in so far as our orientation goes........ yes we are physically oriented.but tell me for all our contribution to the defence services, has any jat become the chief of army staff? i am not aware of any. and who decides these postings?
civil servants! influence projection in only one field is simply not enough

[jogi]

dahiya sahab,
according to indian military law...jats, sikhs and rajputs donot have right for the army cheif post....as they r marshal com's...
one of my friend who captain in army told me this...
for ur information jats r every where...n time will come when u will see lots of jats as civil servants..
just wait..
good luck



paramjit singh dahiya (Nov 24, 2003 07:26 a.m.):
in so far as our orientation goes........ yes we are physically oriented.but tell me for all our contribution to the defence services, has any jat become the chief of army staff? i am not aware of any. and who decides these postings?
civil servants! influence projection in only one field is simply not enough

[uday]

But Dilbag Singh( Sardar ) was heading INDIAN AIR FORCE somewhere in 1983-84.

Jogender Tushir (Nov 24, 2003 01:15 p.m.):
dahiya sahab,
according to indian military law...jats, sikhs and rajputs donot have right for the army cheif post....as they r marshal com's...
one of my friend who captain in army told me this...
for ur information jats r every where...n time will come when u will see lots of jats as civil servants..
just wait..
good luck



paramjit singh dahiya (Nov 24, 2003 07:26 a.m.):
in so far as our orientation goes........ yes we are physically oriented.but tell me for all our contribution to the defence services, has any jat become the chief of army staff? i am not aware of any. and who decides these postings?
civil servants! influence projection in only one field is simply not enough

[jagmohan]

Dear Paramjit and Jogender,

There is no such rule in the Army Act. By the way no law can debar an Indian citizen from assuming any government post. It would be against the fundamental rights enshrined in the Constitution of India.

It is a fact that we have had no Army Chief from the JAT community so far. Let me inform the members that the present Naval Chief, Admiral Madhvendra Singh is a RAJPUT. His is son of late IC 1 (Indian Commission Number 1) Maj Gen Bhagwati Singh.

It has been a sort of unwritten rule not to make a JAT or SIKH the Chief of Army Staff (COAS). This is because of happenings in the late 50s when Nehru and Krishna Menon kicked up incompetent officers (Kashmiri pandits and Punjabis) before the Indo-China conflict of 1962. The Chinese kicked us despite the bravery of our troops. Gen Thimayya nearly resigned on this issue but then since he was a soldier par excellence, he didn't, as he didn't want to create bad blood between the Army establishment and the Government. It is basically the fear of the Politicians that a JAT or SIKH my indulge in a coup. Madam Gandhi too was apprehensive of this. This is the reason.

However, coup is the last thing on the minds of the personnel of the Armed Forces. They are too busy cleaning up the mess created by our short sighted politicians, who have ensured that our citizens keep fighting in the name of religion, caste, language, water etc. etc. And in any case today you have refugees who are dominating the 'Fauj'. If there is a coup they will sell the country or whatever is left of it.

I foresee a JAT/SIKH Army Chief in the near future. By the way the real operational power in the Army rests with the Army Commanders (JATS have held this appointment in the past and would do so in future too). Chief is only a figure head.

Regards,

Lt Col JS Malik (Retd)

[jogi]

thank you malik sir for the much wanted information here..i really appreciate that..
i had an kind of thinking that this some kind of law or something...sorry about that..
thanks
regards




Lt Col Jagmohan Malik (Retd) (Nov 25, 2003 01:31 a.m.):
Dear Paramjit and Jogender,

There is no such rule in the Army Act. By the way no law can debar an Indian citizen from assuming any government post. It would be against the fundamental rights enshrined in the Constitution of India.

It is a fact that we have had no Army Chief from the JAT community so far. Let me inform the members that the present Naval Chief, Admiral Madhvendra Singh is a RAJPUT. His is son of late IC 1 (Indian Commission Number 1) Maj Gen Bhagwati Singh.

It has been a sort of unwritten rule not to make a JAT or SIKH the Chief of Army Staff (COAS). This is because of happenings in the late 50s when Nehru and Krishna Menon kicked up incompetent officers (Kashmiri pandits and Punjabis) before the Indo-China conflict of 1962. The Chinese kicked us despite the bravery of our troops. Gen Thimayya nearly resigned on this issue but then since he was a soldier par excellence, he didn't, as he didn't want to create bad blood between the Army establishment and the Government. It is basically the fear of the Politicians that a JAT or SIKH my indulge in a coup. Madam Gandhi too was apprehensive of this. This is the reason.

However, coup is the last thing on the minds of the personnel of the Armed Forces. They are too busy cleaning up the mess created by our short sighted politicians, who have ensured that our citizens keep fighting in the name of religion, caste, language, water etc. etc. And in any case today you have refugees who are dominating the 'Fauj'. If there is a coup they will sell the country or whatever is left of it.

I foresee a JAT/SIKH Army Chief in the near future. By the way the real operational power in the Army rests with the Army Commanders (JATS have held this appointment in the past and would do so in future too). Chief is only a figure head.

Regards,

Lt Col JS Malik (Retd)

[psdahiya]

that was exactly my point and malik sahib has confirmed the same.............but i still say that it is the civil service that is responsible for this glass ceiling..... of course dominated by brahmins and punjabis.that is why i say that influence projection should be all round............... educational movements in our community seem to have petered out

[scsheorayan]

Paramjit,

You are absolutely right about state of education in rural jatland where people are either;
1.Disillusioned with the education because it does not provide them with decent jobs.
or
2.Not motivated enough to do the hard yakka.

Education is Penance and does require a lot of efforts on the part of individual. Young children like any one else would want to take the easy way out unless ofcourse they are motivated enough to face up to the challenges of life. Parents and teachers have their jobs cut out for them provided they care enough about the future and are themselves motivated enough. Society needs to have high ideals and generate individuals whose self esteem is not in doubt then we can expect commited individuals who are not afraid of hard work. Post independence generation were probably too insecure materially and concentrated solely on material aspects of life at the cost of spirituality. Next generation or the one after that would probably realise that money alone is not the route to fulfilment of life and will be doing University reasearch on topics like family and culture which their great grand parents knew very well without even going to school.
In the mean time let us just watch and do what we can to maintain the cultural heritage.

[nvedwan]

Another aspect of the pathetic educational system especially at the state level is the very short life span of these institutions (before they start rotting). universities like CCS hau, MDU and KU (not to speak of meerut univ.) have declined within a very short period since their inception. HAU which was once an august research institution (in partnership with the Ohio state university) is a place where 80-90% budget goes towards salary payment. how has this situation come about? becuase of rampant political games being played, recruiting people for currying political favors even when there is no need for them, and they are pretty much incapable of doing anything. at one stage even a principal of a local college was appointed the vice chancellor! (because of his proximity to the CM). This is the same place where ICS officers used to be in-charge, and built up the instituion painstakingly.

again, this is not to mention run-away regionalism, nepotism, open goonda-gardi (not long ago the VC's office was ransacked by drunk senior faculty,most of them educated abroad!) mass absenteeism from work by people (all of who have become property delaers. they just show up to claim their salaries!).

This is just an example of a university which started with a world class infrastructure, faculty (at least once upon a time) and only a short time span has come down to this level.
What a shameful decline!

[anilkc]

I dont see anything wrong if jats/sikhs have not been made cheifs in any defence srvices.
Just like only a minority of people are deputed in their home state in civil services and outsiders are prefered for top jobs. The reason is tha we still have a lot of regionalism and caste bonding and have tendency to break away from India. In defence forces that largest no of recruits are from punjab followed by rajasthan. In 1980s a sikh head of army refusing to act in Punjab and declaring Punjab independent was not unthinkable. I think we are still a couple of decades away from seeing a sikh or jat as chief.

[jagmohan]

Dear Anil,

If you want to know why the Armed Forces in India would never get involved in a coup, please read a book titled 'Military Leadership to Avoid Military Coup' by Lt Gen M L Chibber (Retd). The system of recruitment,training and functioning is such that it is unlikely.

For your information it was a Sikh General who commanded the troops who actually went inside the Golden Temple. then Maj Gen K S Brar, who retired as a Lt Gen. I have already said so earlier that Op Bluestar could have been avoided.

Thanks and regards,

Lt Col JS Malik (Retd)

[sindhu]

Dear Lt Col. Malik,

You are right. Also the air chief marshal in mid eighties was Dilbag Singh who is a jat sikh.

Reagrds

A S Sindhu

Lt Col Jagmohan Malik (Retd) (Nov 25, 2003 01:31 a.m.):
Dear Paramjit and Jogender,

There is no such rule in the Army Act. By the way no law can debar an Indian citizen from assuming any government post. It would be against the fundamental rights enshrined in the Constitution of India.

It is a fact that we have had no Army Chief from the JAT community so far. Let me inform the members that the present Naval Chief, Admiral Madhvendra Singh is a RAJPUT. His is son of late IC 1 (Indian Commission Number 1) Maj Gen Bhagwati Singh.

It has been a sort of unwritten rule not to make a JAT or SIKH the Chief of Army Staff (COAS). This is because of happenings in the late 50s when Nehru and Krishna Menon kicked up incompetent officers (Kashmiri pandits and Punjabis) before the Indo-China conflict of 1962. The Chinese kicked us despite the bravery of our troops. Gen Thimayya nearly resigned on this issue but then since he was a soldier par excellence, he didn't, as he didn't want to create bad blood between the Army establishment and the Government. It is basically the fear of the Politicians that a JAT or SIKH my indulge in a coup. Madam Gandhi too was apprehensive of this. This is the reason.

However, coup is the last thing on the minds of the personnel of the Armed Forces. They are too busy cleaning up the mess created by our short sighted politicians, who have ensured that our citizens keep fighting in the name of religion, caste, language, water etc. etc. And in any case today you have refugees who are dominating the 'Fauj'. If there is a coup they will sell the country or whatever is left of it.

I foresee a JAT/SIKH Army Chief in the near future. By the way the real operational power in the Army rests with the Army Commanders (JATS have held this appointment in the past and would do so in future too). Chief is only a figure head.

Regards,

Lt Col JS Malik (Retd)

[sindhu]

Dear Neeraj,

I also share the same anguish. HAU, KU were one time great institutions and their products rule the academia and industry but unfortunately, the political interferance has ruined everything.

It is so frustrating to look back and see what our institutions are upto. I wish if we can do something about this.

By the way I am also in academics and in your neighboring state. if you happen to be around chicago, do contact me.

A S Sindhu

neeraj vedwan (Nov 29, 2003 11:35 a.m.):
Another aspect of the pathetic educational system especially at the state level is the very short life span of these institutions (before they start rotting). universities like CCS hau, MDU and KU (not to speak of meerut univ.) have declined within a very short period since their inception. HAU which was once an august research institution (in partnership with the Ohio state university) is a place where 80-90% budget goes towards salary payment. how has this situation come about? becuase of rampant political games being played, recruiting people for currying political favors even when there is no need for them, and they are pretty much incapable of doing anything. at one stage even a principal of a local college was appointed the vice chancellor! (because of his proximity to the CM). This is the same place where ICS officers used to be in-charge, and built up the instituion painstakingly.

again, this is not to mention run-away regionalism, nepotism, open goonda-gardi (not long ago the VC's office was ransacked by drunk senior faculty,most of them educated abroad!) mass absenteeism from work by people (all of who have become property delaers. they just show up to claim their salaries!).

This is just an example of a university which started with a world class infrastructure, faculty (at least once upon a time) and only a short time span has come down to this level.
What a shameful decline!

[anilkc]

Dear Lt Col. Malik,
Thank u for the info...I will try to get hold of the book u mentioned.
Probabily through the discussions here, we will solve the mystery of why Jats/sikhs make good jawans, but are not able to rise to the top. What r we missing ? Its easy to blame the political/civilian administration who actually make the appointments. But I beleive the ans is somewhere else.

[jagmohan]

Dear Anil,

Thanks for the understanding.

Actually civilians and politicians have nothing much to do as far as interference in promotion procedure is concerned. It would be worth elucidating a bit for the benefit of members. Up to the rank of Major (and equivalant ranks in Navy and Air Force) the promotions are time bound. However, there are promotional exams which have to be cleared. Indian Armed Forces are probably the only institution where one has to appear and clear exams even for time bound promotions.

Then comes the famouos 'Apprisal System' or the annual confidential report (ACR). For merit promotions (Lt Col and above) an officer is judged by the points he has accumulated in the ACRs, his performance on the training courses, operational profile and if he has won any honours and awards. However, the most important factor is ACR. An officer is judged on a scale from 1 to 9 by three superior officers called IO (Initiating Officer), RO (Reviewing Officer) and SRO (Senior Reviewing Officer). An officer will only know what rating he has been goiven by the IO. He will never know how many points have been awarded by the RO and SRO. Upto the rank of a Full Colonel Ministry of Defence has no say and the Chief of the Army staff is the final authority. This is the system.

It has been universally accepted that basically it is the officer class that makes the difference. Good troops (Muslim JATS, Pathans, Baluchi's) under a useless officer class would give you Pakistan Army. Normal troops under an inspired leader and equally motivated officer class will give you the Army of Napoleon. The same is the case with the Indian Army. JATS and SIKHS under useless officers have also run away from the battle field while Kashmiri's, Bihari's and Tambi's under inspired leaders have stood and fought as bravely, if not more, than the martial races.

Contrary to what people think, there are many JAT Officers in very senior ranks presently serving. Some could become chief's in future. But most JAT officer's retire in the rank of Lt Col, like yours truly (Though I opted for premature retirement after 21 years of service). The most important reason for JATS not making progress in many fields, more so in the Armed Forces, as per their capability is simple and straight. WE DON'T HELP EACH OTHER AND WE ARE JEALOUS OF OTHERS MAKING BETTER PROGRESS. I can debate on this issue with examples till cows come home.

Regards,

Lt Col JS Malik (Retd)

[psdahiya]

dear anil,
i have reason to feel anguished over the matter because this is the only field ( apart from farming) in which we have a sizeable presence.And my point is that irrespective of the general perception CASTEISM is present in the defence forces.......just look at the number of refugees present in the higher posts....it's disgusting.......tehelka did not come as a surprise to me

regards.

[arjun]

Malik sahib, very eloquently put. and i have to agree with most of what you say.coming from a service background I have seen how capable officers ( Jats or otherwise) with good leadership qualities are sometimes passed by for people with the gift of the gab.
But it is a pyramid system, so elimination is the name of the game at the top.
I am sure we will see a Jat chief in the future, you cant keep a good person down forever.

[nvedwan]

Thanks Sindhu Jee, for empathiziing with the views I expressed regarding the sorry state of our higher education institutions. The solution in my opinion lies in critical thinking. We as a community have to think long-term about our interests. Sure, in the short-term, people can self-enrich themselves by property dealing or whatever and neglecting their official responsibilities and so on. But do we want this kind of equation to prevail: self-interest triumphing over community interest?


A S Sindhu (Dec 02, 2003 11:44 a.m.):
Dear Neeraj,

I also share the same anguish. HAU, KU were one time great institutions and their products rule the academia and industry but unfortunately, the political interferance has ruined everything.

It is so frustrating to look back and see what our institutions are upto. I wish if we can do something about this.

By the way I am also in academics and in your neighboring state. if you happen to be around chicago, do contact me.

A S Sindhu

neeraj vedwan (Nov 29, 2003 11:35 a.m.):
Another aspect of the pathetic educational system especially at the state level is the very short life span of these institutions (before they start rotting). universities like CCS hau, MDU and KU (not to speak of meerut univ.) have declined within a very short period since their inception. HAU which was once an august research institution (in partnership with the Ohio state university) is a place where 80-90% budget goes towards salary payment. how has this situation come about? becuase of rampant political games being played, recruiting people for currying political favors even when there is no need for them, and they are pretty much incapable of doing anything. at one stage even a principal of a local college was appointed the vice chancellor! (because of his proximity to the CM). This is the same place where ICS officers used to be in-charge, and built up the instituion painstakingly.

again, this is not to mention run-away regionalism, nepotism, open goonda-gardi (not long ago the VC's office was ransacked by drunk senior faculty,most of them educated abroad!) mass absenteeism from work by people (all of who have become property delaers. they just show up to claim their salaries!).

This is just an example of a university which started with a world class infrastructure, faculty (at least once upon a time) and only a short time span has come down to this level.
What a shameful decline!