Gandhi? Well, How about Chanakya!?!

[shailendra]

I had till recently been watching the (now quite old) TV serial ‘Chanakya’. What an amazing personality he was...That very well done and historically (costume and Architecture wise) correct Serial continued to intrigue me even after watching it completely for a second time. Those of you who never watched it, it is my recommendation to get hold of a copy and watch it as soon as possible; just to get an acute lesson on patriotism, political savviness and perseverance.
I am mentioning about him here because even though he was just a Brahmin who plotted and overthrew governments, but his life history provides a valuable lesson. There has already been numerous discussions about Gandhi on Jatland (and I am not going there again) but if it is really someone we all want to take inspiration from (or even discuss about), maybe it is better to go back further in time and into our History, when the issues were not very different from now. Maybe Chanakya never took on the might of the British but he too had a formidable foe in the version of the invading Greeks (and all those useless Kings at home in Bharat).

I am including here some text that has been written about him:

Chanakya has been misunderstood by a lot of people, mainly the modern western scholars. Today India is in a similar situation which Chanakya encountered. The country then had been ravaged by Alexander and there were numerous petty kings looking after their own interests. The nationalistic pride had disappeared, and people were not proud or even aware of their ancestry. Chanakya appeared on the scene and united Bharat under the rule of Chandragupta Maurya. He was fearless, not afraid of death, disgrace or defeat. He was compassionate to the poor and kind, evil to deceit. His writings which clearly show his fearlessness in the pursuit of Truth has been echoed over 2000 years later when Swami Vivekananda cried out, 'Arise, Awake, sleep not till the goal is reached.'

In an article 'The foundation of the Mauryan empire' there is text that says, 'The country had hardly recovered from the shock of Alexander’s victorious march through it - march which had dislocated its indigenous political organization.... The atmosphere was full of frustration and depression. The battle of India's independence against these heavy odds called for a leader of exceptional ability and vision who would infuse new life and enthusiasm into the drooping spirits of a defeated people, and organize a fresh national resistance against alien domination. Fortunately the country produced such a leader in young Chandragupta who had already been prepared for the great mission in life by the Brahmin Chanakya, better known as Kautilya [his given name was Vishnugupta]. Chanakya's superior vision and insight led him to discover in this youth the disciple who would be able, under his direction, to free the motherland of foreign rule.'

Probably the most accurate description of Chanakya can be found in Nehru's words in the Discovery of India, 'Chanakya has been called the Indian Machiavelli and to some extent the comparison is justified. But he was a much bigger person in every way, greater in intellect and reason. He was no mere follower of a King, a humble adviser of an all powerful emperor. Bold and scheming, proud and revengeful, never forgetting a slight, never forgetting his purpose, availing himself of every device to delude and defeat the enemy, he sat with the reins of empire in his hands and looked upon the emperor more as a loved pupil than as master. Simple and austere in life, uninterested in pomp and pageantry of high position, when he had redeemed his pledge and accomplished his purpose, he wanted to retire, Brahmin-like, to a life of contemplation.

There was hardly anything Chanakya would have refrained from doing to achieve his purpose he was unscrupulous enough, yet he was also wise enough to know that this very purpose might be defeated by means unsuited to the end. Long before Clausewitz, he is reported to have said that war is only a continuance of state policy by other means. But he adds, war must always serve the larger ends of policy and not become an end in itself. The statesman's objective must always be the betterment of the State as a result of war and not the mere defeat and destruction of the enemy.'

[ishwarlamba]

Thanks Shalendra Beta,
For last 2000 years India could not have another Chankya.
If he had not been our slavery could have started from 200BC.
Alexgendra had appointed his governors in all North West.
It was the leadership by the professor of political science at Taxila university (now a tourist spot near Islamabad in Pakistan) that whole North West was liberated and strong Indian Empire was created. Salukas the successor of Sikandra was defeated.
If time permits I will write more about Chankya

I suggest all should read books on Chankya and view the serial
regards

[jagmohan]

Chanakya was much more than a 'Strategist' and those of you who have read his most famous creation, the 'Arthshastra', would agree with me.

His contributions are also to be seen in the light of conditions prevailing during those difficult times. His network of information gathering was so efficient that the present day intelligence agencies could be proud to emulate. His writings on providing security to the high and mighty are still practised world over. By the way during his time the inner most circle of bodyguards for a King or a Queen used to be provided by eunuchs. His commentry on all issues, starting from the way a country should have its borders protected to collection of revenue, ingredients of an administrative unit to disposition of law enforcing agencies, should be read and understood by every individual who has an interest in his community, society and country.

Although the chapter of 'Killing one's opponents' is no longer available as on date, his manipulations of instruments of power would make Churchill look like a school boy.

Chankaya was one of the tallest Indian who lived on the same part of earth from which our ancestors came. The least we could do in his honor is to know more about him.

Regards.

[shailendra]

Ishwar Singh Lamba (Sep 09, 2004 11:24 p.m.):
Thanks Shalendra Beta,
For last 2000 years India could not have another Chankya.
If he had not been our slavery could have started from 200BC.
Alexgendra had appointed his governors in all North West.
It was the leadership by the professor of political science at Taxila university (now a tourist spot near Islamabad in Pakistan) that whole North West was liberated and strong Indian Empire was created. Salukas the successor of Sikandra was defeated.
If time permits I will write more about Chankya

I suggest all should read books on Chankya and view the serial
regards

True Mr. Lamba, One can even go to the length of saying that the present day Bharat was actually just a bunch of small (but powerful) Kingdoms...and contrary to belief that it was the British that unified under their oppresive rule what is now India....It was during that early times when as a result of the Greek invasion under Alexander that Chankaya and the resulting Mauryan Empire (under Chadragupt) helped create the boundaries of what is now a Modern India.

Thanks, and yeah; me and everyone else interested would surely look forward to reading more about him from your future threads.

[shailendra]

Lt Col Jagmohan Malik (Retd) (Sep 10, 2004 12:48 a.m.):

...should be read and understood by every individual who has an interest in his community, society and country.

Chankaya was one of the tallest Indian who lived on the same part of earth from which our ancestors came. The least we could do in his honor is to know more about him.

Regards.

very true Col. Malik, I couldn't have put it better. For me that TV Serial alone was such a revelation!!!... and no wonder a true and shrewed politician is often (mostly wrongly) compared to the him and his 'Chanakya Niti'...

But everything said and done; one could benifit so much just to read about his policies and 'gameplans'... and really come to understand the true stature of that little giant Indian.

[shailendra]

...And oh, on a side note another piece of news-
Most of you must have read/seen or heard about the new Hollywood mega blockbuster Movie coming out: 'Alexander'

It would be interesting to see how much or in what vein do they show his campaign in India!

[abhishek]

Shailendra Singh Hooda (Sep 10, 2004 09:56 a.m.):
...And oh, on a side note another piece of news-
Most of you must have read/seen or heard about the new Hollywood mega blockbuster Movie coming out: 'Alexander'

It would be interesting to see how much or in what vein do they show his campaign in India!
May be I am digressing a bit but there are couple of really nice posts on Alexander´s campaign in India and it follows that it was not as "successful" as western historians would like us to believe. Nevertheless Chanakya was a great politician definitely ahead of his times. To uproot dynasty as powerful as Nanda´s was never going to an easy task.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/message/1655

[shailendra]

Here is a very well researched link on Chanakya and his Niti (...Oh no, not one of our Jatland Members ;-) - but what is popularily called 'Chanakya-Niti')

http://www.hinduism.co.za/chanakya.htm

This website is a very long thread on him and mostly everyone will get something revealing and interesting about that guy in there.

On a side note: I strongly recommend again buying the complete set of DVD's of that older TV serial 'Chanakya' (came out at a time when we were still in awe with the incredible view of two opposing arrows stopping in mid stride on our TV screens; remember Ramayan?).... watching 'Chanakya' in the comfort of your living room makes up for a great treat to really absorb the beautifully designed Ancient Hindu sets and costumes...Not to mention his deliverance of awe inspiring dialogues....

[sonalisingh]

Thanks for this Shailendra.
I'll enjoy reading this.
(In general I find material which analyses historical/social/religious information and puts it in a comtemporary context.) Hope this link will have some of that.


[quote]Shailendra Singh Hooda (Sep 17, 2004 12:21 p.m.):
Here is a very well researched link on Chanakya and his Niti (...Oh no, not one of our Jatland Members ;-) - but what is popularily called 'Chanakya-Niti')

http://www.hinduism.co.za/chanakya.htm

[shailendra]

Sonali Singh (Sep 17, 2004 12:36 p.m.):
Thanks for this Shailendra.
I'll enjoy reading this.
(In general I find material which analyses historical/social/religious information and puts it in a comtemporary context.) Hope this link will have some of that.



...Well, hopefully it should keep you hooked.

I have always been intrigued by those first powerful path breakers of their ages and legends from Ancient times...What can be more amazing to have not been lead by an example set by someone else...but actually creating your own example for the coming generations to follow!!!
[Talk about Ancient times reminds me I need to bring back another favorite topic back into circulation after this post...]

[sonalisingh]

It was an interesting read.

Regarding the book (the Niti chapters), I would say that most of the points were either common sense to one who has been out and about in this world, or were a bit ambiguous in their meaning, or quite outdated (esp. vis-a-vis women).

But still there were plenty of points to ponder over. I think each point can certianly be taken up for discussion in today's context. Some of these contain timesless wisdom.

What I did not find however was discussion and anlysis of how Chanyaka went about using these in his own life. That would have been interesting.

One wonders how Chanyaka would have dealt with some current day issues. For instance, if Chanyaka was a modern day Indian PM, what would his strategy be in reagrds to the following:

o The India-Pakistan issues. How do you think he would seek to resolve it ? What would he seek to achieve and how woulod he go about doing it.

o The American-Iraq conflict. What would Chanyaka's stand be there ?

Any takers here who think they can play the role of Chanyaka with reagard these to issues, and cite Chanyaka's philosophy/actions to back up.....


[quote]Shailendra Singh Hooda (Sep 17, 2004 02:31 p.m.):

...Well, hopefully it should keep you hooked.

[sonalisingh]

BTW:

I did see a few episodes of Chanakaya
(first 4). Shailendra is right about it. It definitely will have you hooked.

I remember how I just couldn't digest the horribly dull Ramayana, and then somewhat better Mahabharat. Chanayaka is very different. Plan to see the rest of the episodes
too.

[shailendra]

Sonali Singh (Sep 18, 2004 12:31 p.m.):
It was an interesting read.

Regarding the book (the Niti chapters), I would say that most of the points were either common sense to one who has been out and about in this world, or were a bit ambiguous in their meaning, or quite outdated (esp. vis-a-vis women).

What I did not find however was discussion and anlysis of how Chanyaka went about using these in his own life. That would have been interesting.



...Well yeah, the most frustrating part is the complete lack of detail about anything on him or his protege Chandragupt. His Niti is well documented (and like you said, mostly understandable in the Ancient context of way of life and actions)...but on him it is like this deep mystery, the trail runs cold...

Anyways, my intrigue has been aroused after watching the TV serial and maybe we might get some more info etc. (Hullo... Houston calling Mr. Ishwar Singh Lamba) from other members too...

the queries you have posted about how he would respond to present day situations brings up a very interesting thought Sonali,... I would dare say, these very present day situations have arisen due to the twisted mentality of the would-be Chanakya politicians!
Don't forget, Chanakya also epitomizes the very 'cunning' of a shrewed Politician...supposedly it is said that no one was as 'Kutil' before him in Ancient India, and unfortunately even the black deeds of a cruel policy or move nowadays is usually infamously labelled as "Wah, kya Chanakya Niti apnayee hai!"...

[shailendra]

Sonali Singh (Sep 20, 2004 10:55 a.m.):
BTW:

I did see a few episodes of Chanakaya
(first 4). Shailendra is right about it. It definitely will have you hooked.

I remember how I just couldn't digest the horribly dull Ramayana, and then somewhat better Mahabharat. Chanayaka is very different. Plan to see the rest of the episodes
too.

...There you go! It is very well composed in terms of eye for detail. The hamming too is down to a minimum and in terms of acting the guy who plays Chanakya (incidentally the Director too) and a few other important role actors really shine thru. [Alright...alright, so I sound as if I am getting some kick-backs from the TV serial's producers!]

...plus, don't get me started on pet peev TV serial 'Ramayana'...geez! I used to get all cross eyed trying to decipher kiska teer kisne chalaya...aur kiska teer kaise gayab hua! On top of that the ham acting of the guy playing Ram and the woman playing Sita...[hey Sitae!...]

[anilkc]

I am sure some details are available somewhere. I remeber reading somewhere that the relation between Chanakya and Chandragupta did not last long and Chanakaya left (or kicked out) the court. But later he was again recalled when the empire faced extreme droughts for 3 or more yrs and things where really bad. One important point of contention between the 2 was who should succeed chandragupta. Chanakya did not like the idea of declaring chandragupts underage son to be named the king. Probabliy bcos he was out of favour of kings we do not find any records of him for later period. He did briefly return at an old age but did not make much impact.

[rkumar]

There is a saying in our villages that;

" If you see a kala brahmann, gaura chamar and mala wala jat", be extremely careful of them.

Chanakya was very dark skinned brahman...hahahah...his name was kautilya..Chanakya was only his title...

Rajendra

[shailendra]

anil chaudhary (Sep 20, 2004 12:39 p.m.):
I am sure some details are available somewhere. I remeber reading somewhere that the relation between Chanakya and Chandragupta did not last long and Chanakaya left (or kicked out) the court. But later he was again recalled when the empire faced extreme droughts for 3 or more yrs and things where really bad. One important point of contention between the 2 was who should succeed chandragupta. Chanakya did not like the idea of declaring chandragupts underage son to be named the king. Probabliy bcos he was out of favour of kings we do not find any records of him for later period. He did briefly return at an old age but did not make much impact.

Cool...good info!

I do know that in another famous TV serial (what can I say!?!...am a sucker for the good ones!) 'Bharat ek Khoj'...it is depicted that there used to be a lot of conflict between Chanakya and Chandragupt, as the King (Chandragupt) not always agreed with his 'guru's' extreme views and any shrewed policies to achieve the end...
Also shown was the fact that Chandragupt ultimately renounced the throne and decided to turn into a Buddhist (or was it jain) monk.

But you are right just as there are a lot of theories and stories about Chanakya's first appearing on the scene...similarly his later days remain a mystery too.

[anilkc]

google chanakya and u will find lots of info on him. e.g.,
http://www.sulekha.com/expressions/column.asp?cid=305911

http://www.freeindia.org/biographies/greatpersonalities/chanakya/index.htm

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8107/chanakya.html

[shailendra]

anil chaudhary (Sep 20, 2004 02:08 p.m.):
http://www.sulekha.com/expressions/column.asp?cid=305911


This one is very-very interesting.......

[shailendra]

Here is something more for you guys to consider about the wily Chanakya;
Of the numerous crafty lessons taught by him, One of the more prominent lessons on how to achieve one's end is the principle involving:

* Sam
* Kam
* Dand
* Bheet

Sam, the primary principle, implies the use of rationalization but if this technique does not work then the second implement is Kam i.e. bribery. If this does not produce the desired result, then the tertiary principle is Dand or the vehement use of violence. If all three fail then the last machination is Bheet or sowing seeds of dissension and discord

[mbamal]

I guess its Saam, Daan, Dand, Bhed..

b.t.w. which dictionary are u using dude..that defines kam as bribery :-D ..

[jagmohan]

Rajendra Ji,

I too have heard of what you mentioned from my elders. A little difference though.

"Kala Bahman, Bhoora Dhanak and Kaira JAT are to be guarded against".

Regards,

Malik

[shailendra]

Mandeep Bamal (Sep 21, 2004 11:28 a.m.):
I guess its Saam, Daan, Dand, Bhed..

b.t.w. which dictionary are u using dude..that defines kam as bribery :-D ..

...Hold your verile horses back there fella, In any case I was simply quoting someone there...But you know what, I think we both may be incorrect...

Cause if I ain't wrong, and from what I recall it's probably 'Daam' (for Bribery!) ;-)

[itsnavin]

Saam, Daam, Dand, Bhed....

Daan nahin Daam hai...

[shailendra]

Navin Farswal (Sep 21, 2004 12:00 p.m.):
Saam, Daam, Dand, Bhed....

Daan nahin Daam hai...

There you go!!!
Thanks, Navin...

[sonalisingh]

Of course, one also wonders what motivation Chanayaka may have in publishing the Niti. Does it not amount to giving away your strategies and educating your enemies ?

Or was it also a strategy to mislead others ?

Or was it really an honest desire to inform and educate ? Or did he do it when he was a mere professor and did not actively play politics ?


Shailendra Singh Hooda (Sep 20, 2004 12:22 p.m.):
the queries you have posted about how he would respond to present day situations brings up a very interesting thought Sonali,... I would dare say, these very present day situations have arisen due to the twisted mentality of the would-be Chanakya politicians!

[sonalisingh]

Oh thank God ! I am not alone ! Phew !

I had seriously begin to think I was the lone Hindustani who just couldn't stand that stuff !
Ugghh...Snore...Yawn !!

Some of those actors were slower than Vajpayee in moving around and getting their words out ! I swear, if I was physically there I'd have punched them and spoken their words for them...

And those Sansktritised dialogues ! Did people actually get what they were saying ? I refuse to believe that the Gaonwalas actually understood anything that was being said.


Shailendra Singh Hooda (Sep 20, 2004 12:29 p.m.):
...plus, don't get me started on pet peev TV serial 'Ramayana'...geez! I used to get all cross eyed trying to decipher kiska teer kisne chalaya...aur kiska teer kaise gayab hua! On top of that the ham acting of the guy playing Ram and the woman playing Sita...[hey Sitae!...]

[shailendra]

Sonali Singh (Sep 21, 2004 11:18 p.m.):
Of course, one also wonders what motivation Chanayaka may have in publishing the Niti. Does it not amount to giving away your strategies and educating your enemies ?

Or was it also a strategy to mislead others ?

Or was it really an honest desire to inform and educate ? Or did he do it when he was a mere professor and did not actively play politics ?



...I wouls say both of the above! It is one thing to talk/preach/consult on certain policies and then completely else to be able to implement them....We all know he was perhaps the only one who practised those in a most shrewed manner with fruitful and very immediate results!!!
[How is the serial viewing coming along?...Don't you miss the fact that it does not shed too much light on his Niti's? (how and why...)]

[shailendra]

Sonali Singh (Sep 21, 2004 11:58 p.m.):

And those Sansktritised dialogues ! Did people actually get what they were saying ? I refuse to believe that the Gaonwalas actually understood anything that was being said.

[/quote]

" Hey Matae, Kya Bhrata-shree abhi tak udyan mein bhramad kar rahe hain...?" ^_^

Oh man, all they missed was the golden halo behind their heads! No wonder kaha jaata hai ke kuch jagahon pe log nah-dhoh ke ...haath jod ke baith jaate the just before the appearance of Shree Ram on the little 'idiot-box'!

[sonalisingh]

Well it is hard to say. Making the association between the Nitis and Chanayaka's machinations would really require an in-depth analysis...like one that would be taken for
any literary endeavor. It would require both a detailed knowledge and understanding of the Nitis as well as history...both of which most of us lack.

Frankly, I have a to rely a lot on the English subtitles to make some sense of the dialogues. Most of it goes over my head.

That said, the serial has been a godsend. It keeps my old man hooked to the tv hours on
end, and ma dozes off right away. So it keeps them off my back. :-D

Actually, Pa actually relishes the fact that we have found something in common...

...but damn now my VCR is toasted....we were about half way into the serial....darn !


Shailendra Singh Hooda (Sep 23, 2004 09:46 a.m.):
[How is the serial viewing coming along?...Don't you miss the fact that it does not shed too much light on his Niti's? (how and why...)]

[shailendra]

Sonali Singh (Sep 23, 2004 12:05 p.m.):

That said, the serial has been a godsend. It keeps my old man hooked to the tv hours on
end, and ma dozes off right away. So it keeps them off my back. :-D

Actually, Pa actually relishes the fact that we have found something in common...



...Whoa! I must say that I am immensely pleased to have somehow been able to contribute here to the other post," Bachao Sonali ko Bachao!" ... in some in-direct way notwithstanding!!! ^_^ ...

[ps. And oh yes...at the risk of sounding cliched; personally very-very glad to see the words 'Ma' and 'Pa' in there too!!! Good job! :) Don't worry, it does not make you sound any less tough.....]

[shailendra]

Here are some more reasoning from Chanakya's Arthashastra:

" When the king under attack cannot afford the time needed to sow dissension among the members of the confederacy, Kautilya advises that it is best to make peace by making concessions, with the time bought by peace, he shall try to remedy his weaknesses. What to do is to remedy each type of weakness as soon as possible." Moral of the story is never take a panga or pick up a fight till you have the power to back it. Or else, wait, build your strength and then attack. You must be able to swallow your ego to do this.

The Weak King - Kautilya cautions against spineless submission and foolhardily valor. It is better to give up what will be taken by force and live to fight another day. Only if the circumstances are not conducive to peace shall he fight. A weak king may try to reduce his losses by suing for peace. Equally, he can employ clandestine methods to kill or weaken the aggressor. "Peace can be sought even after the aggressor starts his campaign by offering him useless things. (12.1.24-31). If this fails an envoy can be sent to dissuade the aggressor from continuing his campaign. If this is also useless, the aggressor can be killed or undermined by provoking rebellions and attacks. (12.2.8-10). Or, he can be assassinated "(12.2.2-7).

[rkumar]

Even one modern day author has defined the peace as that time in between the wars when one prepares for the next war...hahahaha...so things are universal in a way..

Rajendra

[shailendra]

Rajendra Kumar Kalkhunde (Sep 24, 2004 10:14 a.m.):
Even one modern day author has defined the peace as that time in between the wars when one prepares for the next war...hahahaha...so things are universal in a way..

Rajendra

One of Chanakya's policies on War: Quote-Unquote,

'Vigraha', this could usually mean a conventional war, a secret war or a proxy war as is better known today as an undeclared war. The last twenty years have seen proxy and undeclared wars become more effective.

For example: When Pakistan prints fake Rs 500 rupee notes to destabilize the Indian economy, provides protection to the Mumbai's underworld, who in turn dominate the Hindi Film industry and extort money from businessmen and from Bollywood.

[shailendra]

Man! Again, come 2nd October and it is 'Bapu' all over the place...while no mention anywhere at all of another equally (if not less) powerful statesman; Lal Bahadur Shastri

[mbamal]

I have the entire chanakya collection on cd..we needed a chankaya during british rule..instead ze got gandhi :(