Allowing Sikh JaTs on this site [Archive]

ajmer

March 3rd, 2004, 03:14 AM

Folks,

I don't really object and I am not at all against our sikh jat brothers. I visit this site because I am able to make a connection (at heart) with people of a culture we all have come to share in the Jat heartland of Western UP, Haryana, Punjab, Rajasthan and other areas.

We must consider the pros and cons of such an idea. I would be real careful here just to avoid unnecessary conflict. As far as I can see this would only lead to conflict. I don't see any value in such a idea.

I think there are websites already dedicated to our Sikh Jat brothers and those who can make a connection can easily get involved on those sites.

I would rather have this site dedicated to the people of common culture, interest and background. I may be wrong but I think that is the whole idea of this site - to be able to make connection with the people who share a culture, share a interest and share a background. This is the only reason I come to this site, otherwise there are so many other websites on the internet.

My 2 cents worth.

-ajmer

mbamal

March 3rd, 2004, 05:03 AM

In Principle I agree with Ravi...its a good idea to allow sikh jats to become members of this forum. What does Nitin and other jatland members think of this idea?

rkumar

March 3rd, 2004, 05:24 AM

Ajmer Dahiya (Mar 02, 2004 05:44 p.m.):
Folks,

I don't really object and I am not at all against our sikh jat brothers. I visit this site because I am able to make a connection (at heart) with people of a culture we all have come to share in the Jat heartland of Western UP, Haryana, Punjab, Rajasthan and other areas.

We must consider the pros and cons of such an idea. I would be real careful here just to avoid unnecessary conflict. As far as I can see this would only lead to conflict. I don't see any value in such a idea.

I think there are websites already dedicated to our Sikh Jat brothers and those who can make a connection can easily get involved on those sites.

I would rather have this site dedicated to the people of common culture, interest and background. I may be wrong but I think that is the whole idea of this site - to be able to make connection with the people who share a culture, share a interest and share a background. This is the only reason I come to this site, otherwise there are so many other websites on the internet.

My 2 cents worth.

-ajmer

Ajmer Bhai,

World in our times is changing much more faster than it had ever changed in the past. Winds of changes are blowing too fast and holding hands of our other jat brothers will give us strength. Let us come closer to all of them as soon as we can and make a much larger block. This will give us a voice on world forum.

Rajendra

dan

March 3rd, 2004, 06:33 AM

I am a jat and i feel a closer sense of brother hood towards a sikh jatt and evan a muslim jat than a brahmin or a baniya ..

its a pitty a few pepl on both sides dont feel the way i do

There is only 1 race a jat race ...if tommorow i were to take a side i kno on whose side i would be on

ravichaudhary

March 3rd, 2004, 08:11 AM

Ajmer

When we leave our comfort zones , there is always unease.

Yet The Sarv Khap of Haryana, stretched from the Sutlej in Punjab to Western UP, to Madhya Pradesh,

Then our Sikh Jats are our flesh and blood.

One other small point

United we are over 50 million.

In an area that is the richest part on India, surrounding the capital.

Can you imagine the power that will bring.

align that with the vision of Dr Gehlawat and others.

Is it not worthwhile to take the first little step?

There are many more members who are much more capable than I am, who will lead us to a new frontier.

and when we stand together, none can defeat us.

Is that not a worthwhile vision?

Ravi

danarambeerda

March 3rd, 2004, 08:43 AM

JAT IS JAT (NO MATTER WHICH RELIGION YOU BELONG TO, JAT SHOULD NOT HAVE ANY RELIGIOUS BORDER, AND SHOULD NOT BE TIED UP WITH RELIGIOUS KNOTS) THATS WHAT I WOULD SAY...

VERY GOOD I AGREE WITH YOU RAVI WELCOME THEM ON JATLAND.

WITH BEST REGARDS

drnchaudhry

March 3rd, 2004, 10:10 AM

I would love to interact with non hindu jats on this forum. Why to prejudge. Lets know each other by direct communication.

mukesh_rana80

March 3rd, 2004, 12:27 PM

hello!
issue of invoving sikh and muslim jats in this forum depends on the very purpose of this forum. if the purpose is just to increase the numbers and being more powerfull in terms numbers (no doubt there will b very powerfull people in sikh and muslim jats and they will help in growth and development).
but are really we (haryana,u.p,delhi ,rajasthan)jats and sikh-muslim jats same. are marriages between all these three types possible(as there have been lots of discussion about intercaste marriage on this site).
is our culture similar to sikh and muslim jats.if all these people interact and mix up culture , what will b the final product. for that matter all human beings r similar.
so, first we need to concentare on consolidating our posion and at later stages only include sikh or muslim jats. other wise it may happen that after some time (2-3yr.) this forum may b dominated by sikh or muslim jats and we our self may loose the identity(at present also some of us r not clear what we really r ). so, lets consolidate and concentrate more on invoving(there r lakhs in harayan,u.p,delhi,rajasthan) our our type of jats.

choudharysaaab

March 3rd, 2004, 01:09 PM

sorry Ravi ji...i will not accept them with us...aaj sikh jat ko milane ki baat ho rahi he kal ko mushlim jat ko bhi milayenge kyon ?....ham kam he kya?...aap kis strength ki baaat ker rahe he...kya aap hamare saath hoke khud ko kamjor samajh rahe ho to isame aapki galati he...to be unit agal baat he aur apane "guts" alag baat he...
sikh jat bahoot cooperative he to me kya karoon..honge...ham nahi he kya?...aise to dheere-dheere ye "ghar".."dharamshaala" ban jayegi...ki jab jisaka mann hua aa gaya....yadi aapka yaha number of mambers badane ka irada hi he to me yaha mere college me sabhi hostels me announce ker deta hoon na.....kon mana karega....sabhi girl-boys chat kerne ko agree ho jayenge.....
absolutely NO...from my side..chahe aap isako "narrow mindness" kaho ya kuchh aur....i cann't accept them .....yadi non hindu jats se interact hona he to aap khud bhi personally ye kaam ker sakate he..nahi to fir hamare is chhote se pariwar me "wo" baat nahi rahegi...

ye unity ki baat kahi aur kejiye..election to nahi lad rahe aap kahi?...

amar0974

March 3rd, 2004, 02:26 PM

Mainey pehley bhey kaha tha, So Many Cook (Sikh) Spoils the Dish(Jatland.com).

uday

March 3rd, 2004, 02:42 PM

In my perception.. "NOPE" !!

As of now Home page of Jatland.com describes as below

"Your participation is eagerly awaited!! New users will need to be register first. Please note that registration is open only to (Hindu) Jats at the moment."

Sikh Jatt and Muslim Jats :-( Believe me if inclusion of sikh \ muslim jat logic get implemented on this website then after some time aapne bhaiyon se isi website per milne ke liye Sat sri kaal ( Ithey - uthey ) aur salaamwalekum karna padega :-) )

I have a BIG doubt if Muslim JAT and Sikh JAT can understand what all has written in our JAT Dictionary in below URL. Hamara culture mail nahi khata then why should we invite Sikh \ Muslim Jats.

Sikh Jats has lot of their own sites….those interested…can join those sites.

http://www.jatland.com/cgi-bin/ub/UltraBoard.cgi?action=Read&BID=12&TID=1074&P=6&SID=69799#ID118

coolguy

March 3rd, 2004, 02:47 PM

what i think is that there should not be any problem in allowing sikh jats on this site..
There should not be any difference between sikh jats and us.
This step will also improve our strength and our circle ...
We all r educated persons and hope u all will support this move..

rohittewatia

March 3rd, 2004, 02:57 PM

Dear Hemant,
I agree with you to some extent. However, you should not forget the fact these sikhs were the people choosen out of us only. This koum was created for the dharm rakhsha.
There were jats also among them. However, the muslim jats are not at all among us and should not be allowed at any case. I have nothing personal against anybody.

virenderk

March 3rd, 2004, 03:01 PM

I agree with Mukesh , Hemant,Amardeep and Uday.We do require Quality jats ( Hindu jats) not quantity of jats

[quote]Uday Dahiya (Mar 03, 2004 05:12 a.m.):

Sikh Jats has lot of their own sites….those interested…can join those sites.

ravichaudhary

March 3rd, 2004, 05:54 PM

This thread is for the discussion of the issue " Sikh Jats" only.

For the issue of Muslim Jats, I have started another thread.

Please could members post their comments re Muslim Jats there.

Ravi

ajmer

March 4th, 2004, 03:26 AM

Rajendera Bhai and others,

Thanks. I understand that the times have changed and so have Jats. That is why we are so far away from our homes. There are so many other ways in which to show and accept the change.

I would like to see this site preserve the Tau (ta-ooo) culture unless we can really have a taoo.com. This is not a political forum. Some people have mentioned strength. There is strength in numbers but there is strength in culture too.

This site has been very successful as far as I am concerned. Why change it now.

This issue has already been debated and I think it is a good idea to keep the site the way it is.

This site is many things for many of us. For some of us this site is more like going to the other side of the village Johad to have some fun with friends in the evening after a hard working day.

As someone has already pointed out, as a simple benchmark go and ask a Tau whether he will marry his son or daughter in other communities. I am not at all against inter-cast marriage and all that is why I am asking a Tau and not the son or daughter. Also, don't tell me that a UP Tau won't marry his son or daughter in Haryana or vice versa because that is not true. So many Taus in our area are already married in UP and vice-versa.

Take care and have fun.

Thanks.

-ajmer

anujkumar

March 4th, 2004, 03:28 AM

Dear Members:

I too don't think it's a good idea for the same reasons explained by other members in previous replies. I think they are not really banned (in the sense that they keep on coming on this site and forced out). It's just they wouldn't relate to it.

One argument was that they allow all Jat's on their site. I would like to know any member going to their groups and Does that serve same purpose as this one. I guess there would be none, exept who has some other agenda like (professional reasons..etc).

rkumar

March 4th, 2004, 05:05 AM

Dear Friends,

Putting a no entry board and saying "Hindu Jats Only" sounds a highly outdated mind set. You mean to say that to interact with other jats we have to go to their sites? And if they want to interact with our group, there is no way they can come to our site? With this approach Jatland.com looks like old south africa. Who knows, those very sikh jats or muslim jats may turn out to be like mirrors where we can see our true face..Let us not hide away our faces and be so introverts. I won't be surprised if there are some jats living in USA or else where who got married to Christian ladies and are almost Christians by their new way of life. What do you say to them? We will do a great service to Jat cause by opening this site to other jats. Is our Jattu culture so weak that opening this site to other jats will dilute us? My friends, holi is just few days away...let this holi be in true spirit of brotherhood...let us welcome them with rang aur gulaal and ofcourse sweets...

Regards
Rajendra

anujkumar

March 4th, 2004, 05:21 AM

Theek hai Rajender Jee,

aan do bai. Ar dike sare mithai ar gulal le ke khade rahiyo.. par methaai khilawange kuukar.. yaa to ek website hai.. ar 0-1 0-1 he le jaa sake sai..

ar haan "no baniya no bahman" kaa bord bhee ghana suthra naa lagta.... unhai bhee aan deve ke..

Rajendra Kumar Kalkhunde (Mar 03, 2004 07:38 p.m.):
Dear Friends,

Putting a no entry board and saying "Hindu Jats Only" sounds a highly outdated mind set. You mean to say that to interact with other jats we have to go to their sites? And if they want to interact with our group, there is no way they can come to our site? With this approach Jatland.com looks like old south africa. Who knows, those very sikh jats or muslim jats may turn out to be like mirrors where we can see our true face..Let us not hide away our faces and be so introverts. I won't be surprised if there are some jats living in USA or else where who got married to Christian ladies and are almost Christians by their new way of life. What do you say to them? We will do a great service to Jat cause by opening this site to other jats. Is our Jattu culture so weak that opening this site to other jats will dilute us? My friends, holi is just few days away...let this holi be in true spirit of brotherhood...let us welcome them with rang aur gulaal and ofcourse sweets...

Regards
Rajendra

rkumar

March 4th, 2004, 05:35 AM

[quote]Anuj Kumar (Mar 03, 2004 07:51 p.m.):
Theek hai Rajender Jee,

aan do bai. Ar dike sare mithai ar gulal le ke khade rahiyo.. par methaai khilawange kuukar.. yaa to ek website hai.. ar 0-1 0-1 he le jaa sake sai..

ar haan "no baniya no bahman" kaa bord bhee ghana suthra naa lagta.... unhai bhee aan deve ke..

[quote]

Dear Anuj,
Be sure no Baniya aur bahmann will stand even for few minutes where 4 jats are talking together. So you need not hang that board. The name of site being Jatland, attracts only the jats. Name of the site itself is like a board.

Rajendra

yvsgaawar

March 4th, 2004, 07:55 PM

Rajender Ji, I support your idea of allowing Sikh JATS to join Jatland. May be we should wait for a while before letting them in. As you can see we Hindu JATS are not united yet. I have seen many times on this forum, people complaining about Haryanvi JAT, UP JAT and Rajasthan JATS. Let us resolve these differences first before creating more mess on board. We must not forget, they are dominant in nature and I am sure they are going to dominate Jatland. I know this because I lived with them for long time. Another thing I have observed is, they do not have any problem (bad feelings) about UP, Rajasthan and MP JATS, but they (Not All of them) certainly don't like Haryanvi JATS (Whatever the reason). I request we should discuss all pros and cons before taking this big step.

ravichaudhary

March 4th, 2004, 08:34 PM

YagyaVir Singh Gaawar (Mar 04, 2004 10:25 a.m.):
Another thing I have observed is, they do not have any problem (bad feelings) about UP, Rajasthan and MP JATS, but they (Not All of them) certainly don't like Haryanvi JATS (Whatever the reason). I request we should discuss all pros and cons before taking this big step.

*********
Let me just take this single poiint, we will also discuss other views,one by one.

This comment that the Jat Sikhs do not like Haryanvi Jats.

This is a stereotype, best got rid off. Perhaps some uniformed perosn made the comment to you, Yahgyavir, and it stuck. That is what causes stereotypes.

This site is only a discusson board.

Let us never forget that.

All someone is saying, by refusing entry, is

" hey I will not let you, a Jatt Sikh, enter the discussion"

Now if we do not discuss with each other, how do we get rid of misconceptions, let alone build relationships.

What is the Jatt Sikh going to say:" I do not like you, you are a Haryanvi Jatt"

You will ask " Prahji, why not"

What will be his response?

The reverse is also true.

A response will come!

Will that not help clear up misconceptions?

Is that alone, not a worth while objective ?

Ravi Chaudhary

yvsgaawar

March 4th, 2004, 09:50 PM

Ravi ji,
May be stereotype, but it is there in the mind. I will get rid of this only if I see more and more Sikh JATS start saying Haryanvi JATS are like our brothers. It may get resolve if we talk on the common platform, or may get worse and Jatland will become Kurukshetra between Sikh JATS and Haryanvi JATS. It wasn’t one person but lots of them made this comment. This was the period between 1983-1992. This perception must have changed by now (Or may be not). My only intention was to tell the truth. I will be more then happy to welcome them. I know them very well and love to interact with them.

danarambeerda

March 4th, 2004, 09:57 PM

JAT KI KOI HINDU CASTE DOST NAHI HAI...ALL HINDU CASTE THEY HATE JAT...OFCOURSE INFRONT OF YOU THEY WILL LIKE BUT FROM THE BACK ALL HINDUS THEY HATE JAT. ALL HINDU CAN BE UNITED AGAINST US BUT BELIEVE ME MUSLIM AND SIKH THEY WONT BE WITH THEM...SO BHAI LOGO SOCHO SAMJHO AND KUCHH KARO..THAT WOULD ONLY I CAN SAY..

WITH BES REGARDS

sunita

March 4th, 2004, 10:00 PM

allow them.

rkumar

March 4th, 2004, 10:09 PM

Dana Ram Choudhary (Mar 04, 2004 12:27 p.m.):
JAT KI KOI HINDU CASTE DOST NAHI HAI...ALL HINDU CASTE THEY HATE JAT...OFCOURSE INFRONT OF YOU THEY WILL LIKE BUT FROM THE BACK ALL HINDUS THEY HATE JAT. ALL HINDU CAN BE UNITED AGAINST US BUT BELIEVE ME MUSLIM AND SIKH THEY WONT BE WITH THEM...SO BHAI LOGO SOCHO SAMJHO AND KUCHH KARO..THAT WOULD ONLY I CAN SAY..

WITH BES REGARDS

I fully agree with Dana Ram ji. Jat ki marod ko koi karod me bhi nahi khareed sakta and I suppose this is what the Jat is. Kings could not pay for his "Marod". We will do a great service to Jathood by inviting all jats (sikhs, muslims etc ) to express their views on jatland. I am not sure about sikh jats' relations with haryana jats. However, all I know is that Badal and chautala families are great friends and have always stood by each each other. Some likes/ dislikes will always be there, but they are all managable. I am sure we will be able to handle them all as they surface. Let us not be so defensive.

Rajendra

shekhar_nehra

March 4th, 2004, 10:48 PM

http://www.jatland.com/cgi-bin/ub/UltraBoard.cgi?action=Read&BID=19&TID=624&P=1&SID=72899#ID7

http://www.jatland.com/cgi-bin/ub/UltraBoard.cgi?action=Read&BID=19&TID=625&P=1&SID=72899#ID2

I think a JatSikh is a jat first and then a Sikh as the name suggests.

We need moderates. This is the need of hour. We should not hold prejudice against JatSikhs and Moola Jats ( Muslim jats as they are known commonly ). I would like to share a fact that Muslim jats are not very fanatic. There are many families of muslim jats where of the two brothers one is "Randhir" and the other "Gulab".They keep Rozas and celebrate Diwali as well.
All jats should be welcomed to Jatland.

Moreover I have a suggestion, Why not to invite non-jat learned men and women who are curious about Jats , the ones doing studies on jat history (this may include researchers from foreign univ's as well) as guests on this forum with limited access.This will solve the problem of having People like Ms. Dutta , who proclaims to be an authority on Jat history.

ajmer

March 4th, 2004, 11:07 PM

Folks,

I am not too sure I can say that a Jat Sikh is Jat first and Sikh later. In fact, I can't say this for anyone other than our local Jats. They are Jats first then anything else. In fact, Jats are so moderate that they don't really have a religion. Humanity is the relegion of Jats. This statement is very strong and I am sure many will agree with me on this.

Go ahead and start another forum such as a yahoo message group and test this idea. Once again this is not a political forum.

Also, to CH. Dhana Ram's comments I would only say that Kahin esa no ho ki dhobi ka kutta ghar ka na ghat ka.

Once again, don't get me wrong, I am not against any one because I simply don't belive in discrimination based on cast, color or religion. It is just that I am debating the purpose of this site. We have to change the rules of the site (such as no sikh jokes) in drastic ways before we can allow this. Based on the posting on this site, I am very sure that the site will have to be closed down very soon if opened to the general public. It just can't withstand the scrutiny of the general public.

Just as someone else pointed out why don't we first try to establish the purpose of this site. Just try doing that among ourselves. That in itself will be very amusing.

-ajmer

ravichaudhary

March 5th, 2004, 12:20 AM

[quote]Ajmer Dahiya (Mar 04, 2004 01:37 p.m.):
Folks,
We have to change the rules of the site (such as no sikh jokes) in drastic ways before we can allow this. Based on the posting on this site, I am very sure that the site will have to be closed down very soon if opened to the general public. It just can't withstand the scrutiny of the general public.

*****************

Ajmer,

There must be more to life than making " Sikh" jokes.

You can still make them but be prepared to see other people crack some about you in return.

and with respect, I disagree with the worry about public scrutiny.

Those who want to enter this site can do so by simply taking on a neutral name or a name that sounds like a Hindu Jat

Nothing here is that confidential.

No one can stop the back door entry , and do you not think it is happening already ?.

Our Yahoo group Jathistory is open to all, and we have plenty of critical comments from non Jat scholars there. It works quite well.

Do visit and join

Open mindeness will make us grow, and be stronger, not weaker

Ravi

vimal

March 5th, 2004, 03:36 AM

Sikh jatts have many forums but for Hindu Jat, this is the only one. I don't think we should dilute the only major forum we have at such an early stage.

nvedwan

March 5th, 2004, 05:10 AM

For those who are confused about whether it's the Jat or the Sikh part of Jatt Sikh identity, which dominates: Jatt is simply the modifier, so they are primarily Sikhs. Just as African-Americans is the commonly used term to denote people of African descent, but defines them predominantly by the fact of their being Americans.

In the sense of expanding our identity, I like the idea of including Sikhs and others, but at the same time we should not downplay the very real and significant differences that exist because of different religious affiliations. A lot of people come to this website for a certain sense of informal intimacy--a home away from home-- which can only result from close cultural similarities. They don't visit for fulfilling a certain political agenda (global domination?!!) and "strategic" vision. It makes sense then that people complaan about the potential of diluting the common identity, which forms the basis for this, rather intense and sometimes abrasive, interaction. The difference is that as an intellectual, romantic experiment, in testing the uncertain waters of identity, this is a fine idea, but at the gut level, it may not sit very well with a lot of people.

The potential for conflict and contradiction will also grow tremendously, and should not be glossed over. Just to give one example, Jatt Sikhs have a very uneasy (to put it mildly) relationship with Arya Samaj, which they see as a Hindu device for domination and reabsorption of other communities. (By the way this is no stereotype, there is huge literature on this and how it was the Arya Samaj aggressiveness that led to millitancy in Punjab). For Jats, Arya Samaj has been a basis for their identity for well over hundred years now. Where's the meeting point here?

I could also see a similar contradictions on the issue of vegetarianism, which Sikhs in general decry as ghaas-phoos khana.

In sum, there is nothing absolutely unbridgeable that seperates us from Muslim and Sikh Jats, but let's do a realistic appraisal of the potential for conflict. If we fail to do this, the resulting problems may very well spell the end of this website.

PS: As someone else pointed out Jatt Sikhs have a tendency to see Haryanvi Jats as being backward and crude. This is also borne out by my personal experiences. I am describing my experience of studying in DAV College Chandigarh, where Jats and Jatts were like oil and water--absolutely no sense of shared identity. But then I can't claim that I was interacting with a representative sample!

anujkumar

March 5th, 2004, 05:17 AM

Bilkul theek kaha Neeraj Jee,

ekak sentence 16 aanne kaa!! and 16 aanne related to this thread.

Neeraj Vedwan (Mar 04, 2004 07:40 p.m.):
For those who are confused about whether it's the Jat or the Sikh part of Jatt Sikh identity, which dominates: Jatt is simply the modifier, so they are primarily Sikhs. Just as African-Americans is the commonly used term to denote people of African descent, but defines them predominantly by the fact of their being Americans.

In the sense of expanding our identity, I like the idea of including Sikhs and others, but at the same time we should not downplay the very real and significant differences that exist because of different religious affiliations. A lot of people come to this website for a certain sense of informal intimacy--a home away from home-- which can only result from close cultural similarities. They don't visit for fulfilling a certain political agenda (global domination?!!) and "strategic" vision. It makes sense then that people complaan about the potential of diluting the common identity, which forms the basis for this, rather intense and sometimes abrasive, interaction. The difference is that as an intellectual, romantic experiment, in testing the uncertain waters of identity, this is a fine idea, but at the gut level, it may not sit very well with a lot of people.

The potential for conflict and contradiction will also grow tremendously, and should not be glossed over. Just to give one example, Jatt Sikhs have a very uneasy (to put it mildly) relationship with Arya Samaj, which they see as a Hindu device for domination and reabsorption of other communities. (By the way this is no stereotype, there is huge literature on this and how it was the Arya Samaj aggressiveness that led to millitancy in Punjab). For Jats, Arya Samaj has been a basis for their identity for well over hundred years now. Where's the meeting point here?

I could also see a similar contradictions on the issue of vegetarianism, which Sikhs in general decry as ghaas-phoos khana.

In sum, there is nothing absolutely unbridgeable that seperates us from Muslim and Sikh Jats, but let's do a realistic appraisal of the potential for conflict. If we fail to do this, the resulting problems may very well spell the end of this website.

PS: As someone else pointed out Jatt Sikhs have a tendency to see Haryanvi Jats as being backward and crude. This is also borne out by my personal experiences. I am describing my experience of studying in DAV College Chandigarh, where Jats and Jatts were like oil and water--absolutely no sense of shared identity. But then I can't claim that I was interacting with a representative sample!

vimal

March 5th, 2004, 08:36 AM

I have spent 10 years in Punjab, did my graduation from there and has closely interacted with Jatt sikhs. I never found any curiosity in them to know about Hindu jats or their culture. There may be one or two sikh intellectuals who want to explore more about the Jat culture but not many. There are so many Jatt sikhs globally that if they started coming to Jatland, the site will predominantly become just any other Punjabi site. We have to create one more section for punjabi music and in that separate sections for hansraj hans, gurdaas maan, daler mehndi and so on.

They are already way ahead of us in terms of literacy, jobs, financial wealth etc. Whereas Jat community need to address some of these issues. These may not be important to them and they may have some other concerns and issues not relevant to our community.

If you interact with a common Jatt sikh, then you will observe the differences between a hindu and sikh jat. I am not opposing it because of the religion differences but the difference in their attitude and upbringing and the way they think of non punjabis.

chhoraharyanada

March 6th, 2004, 04:35 AM

I'm 1/2 sikh (100% jatt though) ... mujhe kyu 'allow' kiya is site pe fir???

ravichaudhary

March 6th, 2004, 04:45 AM

Ramandeep (Mar 05, 2004 07:05 p.m.):
I'm 1/2 sikh (100% jatt though) ... mujhe kyu 'allow' kiya is site pe fir???

Dear Ramandeep

If you will permit a lighter note.

It means we are half way there

Jats are very broad minded people.

Issues must be discussed, and consensus achieved.

That is our ancient way.

Patience

Ravi

chhoraharyanada

March 6th, 2004, 04:51 AM

relax maar yaar ...

hindu / sikh ... unnis bees ka farak, as far as I am concerned.

I think what other people are scared that punjabi will eat this place up. so it becomes a punjabi-v-haryanvi issue?!

I came here 'cos I was interested in Jat history and also, see a bit more about haryana politics ('cos I am from Ambala originally).

biotechs2001

March 6th, 2004, 02:45 PM

Dear Rajendra Kumar Kalkhunde Ji
I persoanlly not in favour to allows Moslem or Sikh on this site.
But I liked very much your ratinal,logical and rustic phrases e.g.

[quote]Rajendra Kumar Kalkhunde (Mar 04, 2004 12:39 p.m.):

... Jat ki marod ko koi karod me bhi nahi khareed sakta...

----and-------

...Jab MA pass Chamari ho, LLB Ghasyaari Ho
Tab desh ka naksha badlega......

ravichaudhary

March 6th, 2004, 07:27 PM

Dear Col Malik

Here is what you wrote on the Jatt or Jatt Sikh Thread

Your words there are of a true visionary

Ravi

******************

http://www.jatland.com/cgi-bin/ub/UltraBoard.cgi?action=Read&BID=19&TID=624&P=1&SID=72899#ID7

Dear All,
JAT SIKHS and JATS are the same, from the same stock and are brothers. Let me give you a brief insight into history.

Guru Govind Singh Ji asked for five people whom he wanted to sacrifice for the 'Panth'. The five who came forward were: one Khatriya, one JAT, a Calico Painter, one Water Carrier (Bhisti) and one Barber. These five later came to be known as Panch Pyara's.

Legend has it that when Guru Teg Bahadur Ji was beheaded by the Muslim rulers in Chandni Chowk (Sis Ganj Gurudwara stand there today), the Sikhs took his head and ran on horseback towards North ie towards Anandpur Sahib. The horses need to take rest and water, so they stopped at a village called 'Badkhalsa' (Now situated near Delhi - Haryana border). A JAT villager understood that these brave SIKHS would not be able to out run the Muslim horsemen and did something which should make us all, JATS and SIKHS, proud. He asked the villagers to behead him and hand over his head to the chasing horsemen. (The JAT had resemblence with Guru Teg Bahadur. He was similar in built). He was beheaded, the SIKHS were able to take the head of their Guru to Anandpur Sahib and the Muslims returned to Delhi with the head of this humble JAT from a small village. The village was then given its present name 'BADA KHALSA' by the next SIKH Guru. With times this has now become Badkhalsa.

It is a well known fact that JAT SIKHS and JATS are one. The 'Tilak', 'Tarazu' and 'Talwar' (Brahmin, Bania and Thakur) nexus never wanted the common man to know this, and that is why extortions of our history by these.

Keep searching and you would find many such examples.

Lt Col JS Malik (Retd)
JAT BALWAN, JAI BHAGWAN

*****************

pssangwan

March 8th, 2004, 05:44 AM

Dears All,
Personally I think, a Jat remains a Jat, even if he changes his religious belief.
The word Jat does not allude to any religious community.
It implies to a racial community.
In wider sense, the word Hindu also does not stand for a religion. It denotes people of Sindh
Civilization, who spread to east and then to rest of India.
Just near us, there is a large village DANODA of Nain khap of Jats. Here there are still many Jat
families who are Jains by faith, and yet they have got Hindu Jat relatives
The Muslims and Sikhs are very recent faiths and there are many distinguished Jats among them.
Our Bishnois are mainly Jats with same Gotras.
Here I live near Punjab border and in some villages, this is common practice among Hindu and Sikh
families to marry each other.
The racial character should not be confused with religious faith.
There are even families whose members practice different faiths and beliefs.
As a race also, one may like it or not, just like other races, we are a mixed lot.
In past there had been lot of mixing with other communities and It is still going on even today.
We commonly accept this fact –JAT KE JO BHYAH KE AGI, WA JATANI HOGI.
But their offspring’s will definitely have a mixed character.
Just by our thought and acceptance, we can’t change the biological process.
We Jats have got more of physical characters of Aryan race, but there are Jats who clearly show the
Dravidian characters of the colour and facial build of projecting jaw and slanting forehead and curly
hair.
Facts are facts and we can’t deny them.
The fact is that we Jats had been mainly rural people.
Our main profession had been farming and livestock breeding.
But when called upon, we proved to be good warriors.
You may say –military was our second profession.
And both these professions demand lot of physical indurance and stamina.
So over centuries we developed into a rough, tough and sturdy lot.
But with changing times, we have made a niche in all other professions and proved that we are
capable of everything and we don’t lag behind any one else.
As compared to other communities, Jats had been less orthodox and always showed scanty respect o
to the Brahminical class.
There is a proverb in our villages –KAAL BAAGAR (dry land) TEIN UPJAI, BURA BAHMAN TEIN
HO!
The other word for a Brahmin in their vocabulary is a –TARDA, which is a disdainful expression.
They always preferred wet lands and greener pastures.
But nobody leaves a greener pasture for others.
So they had to use force.
Sometimes they failed and sometimes they succeeded and thus they spread to many greener
pastures.
They were not averse to changing faith.
They considered it more of personal affair and not a social issue and were more tolerant to it.
.
NOW WHEHER TO ALLOW MUSLIM JATS AND SIKH JATS ON THIS WEBSITE?
I think we must allow, rather we should invite them to come and share their experience andthoughts.
They are our brothers.
The religious and sectarian boundaries of region should not devide us.
We will be a bigger community, with a wider horizon and better force to reckon with our exploiter
classes.
.
With all good wishes,
Dr. P S Sangwan
Sangwan Hospital
Uklana Mandi Distt. Hisar Haryana -125 113
Ph. 01693-233077, 233677, 235077, M-9416044077
pssangwan@rediffmail.com

ravichaudhary

March 8th, 2004, 08:35 AM

[quote]Dr. Partap Singh Sangwan (Mar 07, 2004 08:14 p.m.):
Dears All,
Personally I think, a Jat remains a Jat, even if he changes his religious belief.

Thank you Dr Sangwan

It will probably be a surprise to some, but many Jats were and are Jains.

Visit the Jathistory group and see for yourself.

Many Jat rulers of Rajastan were Jains.

Chandragupta Maurya, the Jat, also accepted Jainism as his religion in his later life

To day we rediscover, that the Maur, Maurya Empire was a Jat empire.

Should we be proud of that, or should we reject that, because Chandra Gupta was a Jain, and his grandson,Ashoka was a Buddhist. ?

The Jat society and empire spread from Afghanistan to Bengal and Orissa and South India.

We can either reclaim our heritage or shrink ourselves to Poverty and insignificance.

Again, these are troubling isssues,but they will not go away if we stick our heads in the sand.

We Jats have never been afraid of adversity and challenges.

Will we not rise to the occasion today ?

Ravi

jagmohan

March 8th, 2004, 09:11 AM

Dear Ravi,

Thanks for quoting my earlier mail. And I am no visionary. I am a simple JAT. I was born in a village and was lucky to have studied in a Sainik School very far from home (In Karnataka State). I got luckier when I was commissioned in the Jammu and Kashmir Light Infantry. For your information all Jawans of this regiment are recruited only from the state of J&K only. The officers are from all over the country. I have been indeed grateful to God all this while and more so because I got an opportunity to pray in Mandir -Maszid-Gurudwara (popularly called MMG in the regiment) for 21 years. I know more about Islam than many Moslems.

However, all that is my personal experience which I share with others to bring about an acceptnace that there is one God or Power and differents ways to get there. But does everyone think so? Not my Muslim friens.

I am now working in Mumbai and live in a predominantly Muslim neighbourhood. There are two Masjids nearby. In fact I am woken up everuday by 'Azan' and I take it that I have also marked my presence to the Almighty. One day I went to the Masjid and asked the Maulvi whether I can attend Namaz? I did not tell him who I was, but since I have grown 'French Cut', he may have thought that I was a Muslim. He said why not. Then I told him I was a Hindu. He nearly fainted and polietly refused me.

What I am trying to get to is a very simple point. Let us first make sure that we learn to communicate within our own community and then have grand plans of integrating the Sikhs and Muslims. I am a very broadminded person but when it comes to my core beliefs about my 'Kaum' ie JATS (And I don't consider myself to be a Hindu. I am an Arya Samaji and a JAT), I have very extreme views.

I wish the Muslims and Sikhs all the happiness in thid world. Let them multiply as much as they wish. As an individual I am first concerned about my family, then my near and dear ones (many of them from different castes and creeds), then my Kaum and then the country. No Sir, I am a JAT first and then a Haryanvi and then an Indian. And when I was in the Army I was a soldier first and my religion was the religion of my Jawans. I know this might surprise a lot of people but then those are my beliefs. Today it has become fashionable to say 'I am an Indian' first and foremost, especially amongst those who have caused maximum damage to the very fabric of this country. These 'India Shining Wallas'. Let me first be a good son, husband, father brother and friend and then when time comes to give my life for the country, I would do so only when I see these 'Shinng Wallas first make sacrifices themselves (I am still on the reserve list). Let me first make a difference in the life of one JAT who is not related to me (though all JATS are supposed to be related), then I will think of integrating the Sikhs and Muslims. I know enough about then and don't want to learn more from then. My first priority is towards educating those poorest of the poor JATS who have been forgotton by their brethern who feel making chips in Bangalore is better than making cowdung cakes in villages.

Another point about Dr Sangwan's point that "Whoever marries a JAT, becomes a JAT". I don't think so. I don't have any relative abroad (have not tried to find out but there are many out there) and would like to know from those who have married white Americans or Europeans whether this is true. Have you made them JATNIS or they have made you, whatever?

Mr Ravi, I am very clear. I think the aim of this site is as written by Budh Nashier Bahi and Sujata Ji. Let us first make a difference to our own community and then think of others. Yes, those of us who feel the pangs of separation, please go ahead and become a Muslim or Sikh. Why not? Aren't we all JATS. And those who want to get educated, please do so but spare simple JATS like me.

Thanks and regards,

Lt Col JS Malik (Retd)

ravichaudhary

March 8th, 2004, 05:23 PM

Col Malik

Thank you for your thoughtful post.

We must keep in mind why this subject arose in the first place.

I recived a request from some Sikh Jats, wondering why they could not post on the Jatland site , while all who wished to do so, ( Sikh Jat, or anyone else could do so on theirs and were welcome.

I had no answer to give, and put their request to this group.

The choice to interact or not is upto the members of this group.

It does not affect me personally whether this group accepts requests for help from Sikh Jats or not ( Today at any rate).

A time may come, when some Jats ( hindu) may need help from the Sikh Jats. Will they not remember the reaction we gave them today.?

A few years ago, I heard of an event, that at one of the annual Jat Sabha meetings in Delhi, a group from Andhra Pradesh came to the meeting.

Thye said they were Jats, and had over one hundred villages in Andhra.

They were facing difficulties and wished help from their Jat Bretheren in the north.

I do not what happened next. Chances are not much.

If that request came again, today, I guess some members of this list would refuse to talk to them.

If the Sikh Jats are looking for understanding, interaction, and support, should we simply say-

" No, No and NO, - we will not even enter into a conversation ?"

Please reflect upon it.

Ravi

jagmohan

March 9th, 2004, 08:58 AM

Dear Ravi,

Has anyone denied you the freedom to express your opinions and requests the way you want to? No. We have been carrying out a meaningful discussion and I believe that if two people agree on everything then one of them is surely abnormal, if not both.

Please understand that request by few Sikhs to participate in Jatland does not necessarily reflect the opinion of the entire community. I know you will say that a begining should be made. I too want the same thing but a little differently. You seem to want that all JATS of the world will unite under one banner and then we start to do something for the community. It is good to be futuristic and think ahead. I am not that intelligent or forward looking and my approach is slightly different. I am more of a grassroot man. I think about the poorest of the poor JAT of my village who is unable to educate his daughter for want of money. I want to first help him rather than thinking of integrating JATS of the World. May be I am not educated enough to think big but I shall endevor to make a difference in the life if few poorest of the poor JATS. And I want to start from my village and not from Amritsar or Lahore.

I know of hundreds of JAT villages lacking basic sanitation. Let us think about bringing about some change in their lives rather than looking after Andhra JATS. The issue is too simple to be understood. And if the Andhra JATS came for the convention, I believe they would have given some advance notice and should have been looked after. But their problems cannot be sorted out by North Indian JATS as long as there is poverty in North Indian villages. Of course, in times of drought and other natural calamities the North Indian JATS do help them with foodgrains, animal fodder and water.

If the 'Karta Dhartas' of this site want to admit Muslim, Sikh and all other Non Hindu JATS, I have absolutely no problem but my personal opinion is NO. I also believe if such an admission is granted this will become a buggers muddle and at least I would not want to get dirty. I have so many things to do rather than try and explain to a Muslim that there is but God, which he would refute in the name of Allah and say only his God exists and others are 'Kafirs'.

Regards,

Lt Col JS Malik (Retd)

ravichaudhary

March 9th, 2004, 05:34 PM

Col Malik

You know I respect your personal view.

I will request that you post your view of Muslims on that thread. I now it is a very difficult topic, and that is why I separated it at the outset, when another member played the Muslim card.

The mere inclusion of a reference to Muslims is enough to raise emotions to piont where no conversation is possible.

I am well aware of our difficulties with the followers of this religion. Browse through my posts here and the Jathistory group.

I will request you( and others) not mix the threads

Ravi

ravichaudhary

March 9th, 2004, 05:49 PM

The issue was not whether the Andhra Jats should have got, lodging and shelter, but that they asking for help, for their problems back home

My guess no help was given?

My guesses as to why :

We north Indian Hindu Jats were too preocupied with our problems, were too disorganized, and had no ability to give help even if we wished to do so.

Help would mean, money, political clout.

We have none of that.

Apathy would have prevailed and everyone after the Sabha went home to their daily routine.

And yes, I do have a vision where we like minded people unite, and bring our clout together,

for political and economic power

Today the Sikh Jats ands Jats are over 70 million. That dominates Punjab, Haryana, UP, and Rajasthan.

Most of Producutive India,especially the Capital region.

Without that,

you will not be able to do the very thing you say that you wish to do, help uneducated Kids in the Hindu Jat Villages .

"We cannot even look after oursleves, how can we help others."

To that I would say "If we are not willing help others, others will not be there to help us."

and we do not have to restrict our focus,

others will come to help, for their own reasons.

All we need to do is to create a welcoming environment.

Ravi

atuldahiya

March 9th, 2004, 09:01 PM

Thoda ajeeb sa lagta hai sun kae ki jat sikh ko bhi jatland mae shamil karna chaeyae just becoz somebody asked for it....i have nottin against jat sikhs rather i have lots of jat sikh freinds... but at many instance I realised one thing with them......jat sikhs never consider us as one of them......although i am close to my jat sikh frnds but still they would say nooooo......u a different jat....AND THATS WHAT THEY BELEIVE IN .....and I might be wrong to say this ... i personally think ..it would not be a great idea to accept jat sikh in this family........

drnchaudhry

March 9th, 2004, 09:04 PM

I guess, dietetic habits, matrimonial preferences, and practice of a particular religion are personal choices. How communication with others will invade someone's privacy?
If someone is determined to extend his helping hands at personal level. How a dialogue with others will hinder him?
I am not saying that we should go for hunting of non hindu jats. All I mean is please allow if someone is interested to interact with us.
Please do not forget, we will still have moderators if discussion is out of line.
I simply can not get, how avoidance of a conversation will help, we Jats.

anilkc

March 9th, 2004, 10:53 PM

Isnt it interesting that the offer to join has come from Jat Sikhs?
Before we jump to conclusions, isnt it a good idea to find out what motivated them to join this forum? Do they have a hidden agenda? Do we really know them? Have we heard their side of story to come to a fair conclusion?

jagmohan

March 10th, 2004, 08:47 AM

Dear Ravi,

Since the basic issue is 'Whether Non Hindu JATS be allowed to be members of this site' does it matter whether we discuss Sikhs or Muslims? However, your point is well taken.

Now let me give my views on your 'vision' of uniting the North Indian JATS so that they have economic and political clout.

It would be wiser to first unite the family, then the larger family (Panna) and then the village, if you want your vision to even start taking shape. I don't know how educated and aware we all are about the real conditions that prevail in the rural areas. Without ensuring better future for those in the rural areas all this talk about JAT clout has no meaning. And I am glad that people with vision have done and are doing exactly that to address this basic fact. They are opening educational institutions in villages to educate 'Uneducated Kids'.

Now on the question of creating an welcoming environment, a point raised by another member. My feeling is that let us create a welcoming environment for our own JATS before allowing Sikhs on this site. Those of you who feel very close to the Sikhs (I too have few Sikh friends) please welcome them in the most befitting manner in your houses, offices or whereever. I personally feel we should be spared the 'Refugee Culture' that is now considered synonymous with Sikhs.

Please hear their side of the story by sending them private mails. I first want to hear the story of my JATS and learn from them for I have no grand plans of uniting the JATS of the World to create a clout, political and economical.

There are few promonent JATS in the country who can make a difference if they want to. They can do what would take JATLAND 100 years to do. Namely unite all Hindu JATS. Why can't these Chautalas. Ajit Singhs, Bansi Lals and Jhakhars come under the banner of one party and fight for the JAT cause? The answer is very simple and historically proven. 'We are like this only'. What Rajinder Ji has nicely descrived as "JAT ki Marod" (Though I don't agree with him on allowing Sikhs and Muslims on this site)

Regards,

Lt Col JS Malik (Retd)

ravichaudhary

March 11th, 2004, 01:41 AM

Here are two Jatt Sikh Sites.

is there anything threatening here ?

http://www.jattworld.com/exoops/

http://pub49.ezboard.com/fjattincboard30296frm1

Ravi

choudharysaaab

March 11th, 2004, 12:36 PM

ravi bhai ye konsa game khel rahe ho aap?...
u r looking like "dono haatho pe laddoo"....

http://www.jattworld.com/exoops/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=437&forum=3#8034

ravichaudhary

March 11th, 2004, 04:49 PM

Hemant kr choudhary (Mar 11, 2004 03:06 a.m.):
ravi bhai ye konsa game khel rahe ho aap?...
u r looking like "dono haatho pe laddoo"....

http://www.jattworld.com/exoops/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=437&forum=3#8034

One member there, going by the name of Ajat, whio is actually quite knowledgable on Jat culture and history, made a comment about Shri Dudhee that was not correct, and would be misunderstood.

I clarified it, and pointed how Shri Dudhee was very sincere, dedicated, was a historian,and had done, and is doing much for education of Jats and Jat girls in rural areas.

The person accepted that clarification,and was willing to help ion such rural eduacation projects.

I have suggested he join Dudheeji's education group.

Another Jat Sikh lady Nadia Deol a PHd is also a member of that education group, from the inception of that group, and has developed and presented a working paper on rural education.

If the matter was not addressed immediately , there would be misunderstanding and bad blood.

I hope that clarifies the issue.

As suggested by Shri Nashier, I am now going to leave this topic alone.

Members have enough information to digest and come to their own conclusions

Ravi Chaudhary

vijay

December 29th, 2005, 10:48 AM

Hi all,
I am new member of the family. A warm hello to everybody.
Well, i knew Jatt's and their history.

Sikhism was founded by Guru Gobind Singh Ji, the 10th guru. Before him all the nine Guru's were Hindu. Guru Gobind Singh ji had to fight with Aurangjeb and needs soldiers for that. So he asked for volunteers and got a huge response all over the North India. They gather at a place i don't know exactly, maybe Swarn Mandir (Golden Temple, Why it is called a Mandir think it) where and then Guru Gobind Singh told them from now on everbody of us would be known a Singh (Lion). That's why every sikh use Singh with his name. He made some other resolutions that leds to sikhism (five K's : Kanga (Comb), Kada , kesh (Hair), Kachcha (underwear) and Kirpan ( Sword) ) and Amrit (Nector) for the reason that from now on they are Sikhs.
His jat followers became Jatt's. You can prove it very easily by simply comparing the gotra in Jat's and Jatt's . "THEY ARE SAME". So by default they are JAT by origin.

I am not into debate that they should included or not but i am strongly in favor of the fact that we have same flesh, same hot blood and are brothers. That's it.

I will appreciate your suggestions on it.
Thanks.

atul.jhajhria

December 29th, 2005, 11:52 AM

I am all in favour of including Jatsikh's here. So far i never had any bad experience with jat-sikh. I found them identifying with Hindu-Jats and often i see them in same group as us.
Since Sikhism was made to protect hinduism, we dont have any deep rooted animosity towards them and vice-versa. The most of the differences are social and are not grave as such. :rolleyes:

However if i am missing any point then please enlighten me. As far as i know there was no bloodbath between H-Jats and S-Jats :) at any point of time.

I am sure there are many Sikh Jats already on forum like ramandeep. They identify themselves as Jat and thats important.

The case of Muslim Jat is bit different, we have long history of fighting with them. I dont hold favourable view of Muslim-Jats.

Note: If anyone talks of creating khalistan, just kick him.

sampuran

December 29th, 2005, 12:58 PM

anildabas1701

December 29th, 2005, 01:07 PM

Ravi Choudhary Sahab,
Mujhe Jat Sikhoon Se Koi Preshani Nahi, Mein To Chahta Hoon Ki Aap Site Par Punjabi Music Bhi Load Karwae, Punjab Hariyana Ko Phir Se Ek Kar De, And Us To Okhi Gal Ae Hagi Ki Saadi Shaadi Vaste Ek Changi Si Sardarni Bhi Vekh Lyo

anildabas1701

December 29th, 2005, 01:17 PM

Ravi Sahab Ek Baat Kahena To Bhool Hi Gaya Ki Naa To Mujhe Aaj Tak Kisi Sikh Jat Site Se Join Karne Ka Koi Invitation Aaya Aur Mera Manana Hai Ki Yanh Par 3303 Member Mein Se Sayad Hi Kisi Ko Koi Invitation Aaya Ho................................................ ...................
Aap Ne Jabardasti Jakar Apne Aap Ko Register Kiya Ho To Baat Alag Hai, Par Invitation To Aap Ko Bhi Nahi Aaya Hoga............................

narenderkharb

January 8th, 2006, 04:48 PM

I strongly support the views of Ravi,vijay,atul and all with similar views.If we can not share a site with jats who came forward to fight against the attrocities of tyrrants on fellow jats and than there is no use of showing bhaichara among us also.If we advocate this sepration on dialect than we will tomarrow talk about bhagri,bhangru or parava sites. Our blood is one dialect changes every 20 km,If we starts segregation it ends on oneself .We can have seperate sections catering exclusive to haryanvi flavours.

devdahiya

January 8th, 2006, 05:19 PM

Then why not open this site to RAJPUTS,Muslims, Brahmins and for that matter to the entire world ? Rajputs also have same roots what Jats and sikh have. There are two different matters....One, whether Siks are like us or not, yes they are almost the same except the PAGGARI and they are wonderful people as i have known them........and the second why this site after all....for whom......Why......and how? ..........! First unite your handfuls beforwe thinking on univarsal lines.......We all understand the broader aspects and benefits of larger conectivity but first we have a daunting task of putting our house in order. Charity must begin at home....spread its wings to moon...and if it has to end it must end at that home only. Who is against anyone at all in the first place? Let us not divide ourselves on this emotive issue.