IIT- Roorkee

[snrsingh]

Hello!!..

I am posting this as a member of jatland and not as student of IIT Roorkee.Since there is good number of IIT-ian as member of jatland. It pain to see spate of criticism coming from others IIT's regarding our calibare(IIT-Roorkee) , compared to other IIT's.In fact it is callousness on the part of other IIT to denounce that it is upgraded to IIT....Look University of Roorkee is "converted" into IIT-Roorkee not "upgraded".We were enjoy more if not less than any IIT as erstwhile universtiy of Roorkee before converted into IIT( It was ranked 4 in India beating some of IIT and 14 in Asia..including japan korea,china and australia.... by asia week).Progress is only possible if we not belittle the achivement of others.Since IIT-Roorkee is not located in a metro city so its achivement is not highlighted.Look who doubt our calibare are welcome to visit our campuses and website to get Feel of our calibare.

Regards
Surinder

[sanjeevmalik]

In a recent attack on IITs vs Roorkee University, Dr. Murli Manohar Joshi said that "There are more number of Roorkee graudates that serve the country versus the graduates from IIT's."

I think this itself is a feather in the hat for Roorkee University graduates who serve the country better than the IITians.

As far as the downgrading comments made by some IITians about Roorkee University shows only their level of maturity in giving such statements.

Thanks.

[mbamal]

Although I am an IIT Delhi B.tech graduate in electrical engineering, I appreciate the views put up by the by Surinder and Sanjeev. I never underestimate anyones ability. For me every individual in equally capable in every sense. It all depends on his desire/enthusisam/perseverance to achieve his/her goals. I know Roorkee produces one of the best technical graduates in India and is second to none. But...but...having said that I would only like to point out a few things.

1. If Roorkee was happy to be a Roorkee, then why it so happily changed to IIT and why was it so fast in updating their website in matter of days. They just dropped off their Roorkee tag like a hot potato. They now proudly introduce themselves as being from IIT Roorkee. If u dont like IIT tag then why flaunt it?

2. Criticism from Murli Manohar Joshi was targeted towards lack of research output from IIT's (I am not sure if any single person is sane enough to beleive him). IIT's are pouplar because of their highly competitive undergraduate programs and not for their M.tech of PhD programs. IITs undergrad program are easily at par (if not better) with MIT or stanford.

3. Talking about serving the country...let me tell you that working in an MNC in India doesnt make you more patriotic than someone working abroad. As an Engineer, you should work towards betterment of society, and IITs have proved it n number of times...in whichever society/country they live, they have sought to do the same for that particular society. Even in India CEO of NIIT, Infosys and numerous other companies r X-iitians.

I am not trying to boast and this should not be taken as a burst of arrogance, I know the facts. Not every IITian is better than a Roorkee Graduate, and I know it and acknowledge it. IIT or Roorkee just give u a platform from where u can choose and define your own career based on ur knowledge/skills and competence. But let me make few things very clear, IIT Roorkee will always be an IIT Roorkee and not an IIT. They are just different, i do not care about comparisons or rankings. For me it doesnt even matter, I judge people on a personal basis and not based on their background or education. I have had several friends from DCE, BITS who are more intelligent and competent than many IITians. But while doing comarisons, the law of averages applies..and on an average and IIT grad leaves a Roorkee grad way..way...behind. U might have to take this with a pinch of salt, but thats how things are, and thats how things will be. Let me ask you Surinder, if you had a choice between IIT (i mean IIT D,K,KGP,B,M) and Roorkee, which one would u have preffered.
I know that most of you disagree with me..specially the non-IIT engineering grads, but I am not the one who started this thread. I never said anything derogatory about Roorkee but at the same time I am a proud IITian and I cannot stand someone trying to demean/disparage IIT in anyway....and I know my views will be in minority....but then not many people get to be an IITian.

IIT ka enthu high hai!

[skpunia]

Hello Mandeep,

I am not IITian but whatever you said it's 100% TRUE........ I do fully agree.......

Surendra

[sanjeevmalik]

Mandeep,

Congratulations on being a proud IITian. You have earned it.

IITs have done a great job and are still doing it. I am proud to be from a country where IIT belongs.

Forums like these give an opportunity to list the views, comments of an individual however critical they might be. My comments here are not against you but a generalization of my thoughts and knowledge about this topic.

No doubt. It surely takes desire/enthusisam/perseverance to achieve his/her goals and also to be one of the top 1% of about 200,000 applicants each year to be in an IIT. But it also takes the right guidance (parents/school), right resources (fees, tutorials), right environment (at home/at school) and right amount of diligent hard work (by the individual) to be in the top 1% of the applicants. All who are in IIT and will be in the IIT need to have the combination of the above characteristics. I deeply admire, appreciate and congratulate each IITian for their achievement. I also have deep regards and respect for every hardworking successful person.

Indian government and the IIT management/faculty/student have done an excellent job to create an IIT brand recognized internationally.

I also have few comments about your points.

1. I don’t think it was the decision of a Roorkee university students to associate it to IIT rather I personally feel that it was an administrative/management/government decision to make Roorkee a part of the IIT brand. It was easy and better for the government to make one Roorkee a part of the IITs group rather than making IITs named as Roorkee University at Delhi, Roorkee University at Kanpur, etc. So once the strategic decision was made it had to be implemented very diligently. I am sure Roorkee will benefit being part of the IIT brand but as far as the website change was concerned, it was rather a part of the implementation step rather than a choice of the Roorkee university management.

2. IIT’s have the best in the undergrad programs as the input to these institutions is the best 1-2% of the Indian bright students and the amount of the Government subsidy to these institutions. But I meant as an institution at large and not the undergrad program itself at the IIT. It’s getting into an IIT that’s difficult and not studying at an IIT.

3. I meant the percentage of IITians working for the government services (Engineering). Things have changed recently due to rise of the tech industry in India, but I am talking on the basis of statistics of the graduates produced by IIT in last 30 to 40 years.

4. Things have changed and will keep on changing in future. To make a remark “IIT Roorkee will always be an IIT Roorkee and not an IIT” is highly judgmental at this time.

5. If I had a choice to choose Aeronautical Engineering at an IIT versus Computer Engineering at Roorkee, I would have opted for Computer Engineering at Roorkee. But that’s me.

6. “IIT ka enthu high hai!”: High hi hone chaiye but attitude nahin.

Thanks.

[snrsingh]

Hello!!
Mandeep,
I fully endorse your view that people are to be judged on a personal basis and not based on their background or education.But i too have to put some point, I am not saying this after hearing Murli Manahor Joshi statement....but comment from other IITs(I consider them mature enough).I am not saying that other IIT-ian less patrotic.Infact we have same number of student there in MNC and abroad.
One more you were asking about my choice if i had to choose between different IIT....since we have to take many thing into account like course(Branch),proximity of native places and many more. It depend more or less a personal choice .As admission to all IIT is on JEE so i feel all are equal and there is no part you saying that IIT grads leave behind IIT-Roorkee way behind.
IIT-Roorkee is oldest engineering instiute since 1857 as Thomson Engineering college.It was proved itself over a time,We are happy to be part of bandwagon of IIT.Hope you all reciprocate us warmaly!!
IIT (including IIT-Roorkee)ka enthu high hai!

Regards
Surinder

[palsaniya]

Although I am B.TECH. student @ IIT Kharagpur in Mechanical Engg.
According to Murli Manohar joshi ..we cann't resolve anything coz Politician's sounds....

As IIT Kharagpur at the top (no.1 )since few yrs ....But i never underestimate other Institutes or someone's ability...all are good .....Actually past Impression of IIT R was not good due to their Entrance exam Level,at my time that was like 12th class standard n something like reservation for UP candidates...but now situation has changed due to JEE..so IIT-R also good....hum bhai bhai hai.....

but what do you say bout crazy murli manohar joshi who is going to convert some RECs name to IITs ..is it right?? i think its wrong...if he want to improve RECs then changing brand name is not solution?? Never.....just going to mixup all...!!!

IITs(Including IIT-R) ka Tempo high hai !!!

its ram...

[mbamal]

Dear Surinder and Sanjeev,

Let me take my statement back that "IIT grads leave IIT-Roorkee grads way behind." I was ofcourse being too judgemental and naive when I made this. My apologies for that! but now that Roorkee is an IIT, so there should be no discussion about Roorkee vs IIT. that makes no sense.

IIT ka enthu high hai..

[rkumar]

Dear Frineds,

I belong to Roorkee University era and not the IIT Roorkee era. I have visited and interacted with students and faculty from all over the places, including other IITs. Let me put some facts which even today's IIT Roorkee students may not know;

1. Roorkee University had the best dining culture in the country, may be next only to NDA Khadagwasla. I have dined in IIT Mumbai's mess long back and found it no better than a Dhaba on road side. Unfortunately Roorkee also deteriorated after 1975 as far as the campus culture is concerned.

2. Roorkee University laid lots of emphasis in olden days on personality development and made its students feel class apart. Today's IITians can not even dream of those days.

3. There are many subjects in Roorkee which were unique when started. I am not sure if other IITs have such subjects even today. It has one of the oldest Earth Quake Engineering department in the country and the first Water Resource Management Centre in the country.

This is the tragedy of this country that the institutions are built at the ruins of others. Free India has lost the great universities like Allahbad and reduced them to local colleges where only Gundas live and control. 50 years back this very university was known for the best science, best input to IAS and so many other things. Firaq Goarkhpuri taught in this very university and Meghnath Saha was the professor of Physics there. Planning Commission in India was the brain Child of Meghnath Saha with the blessings of Nehru.

IITs have degraded the Indian universities and the labs like PRL, NPL and TIFR etc have degraded the university research in this country. Higher degrees like masters and Ph. Ds have degraded the BA/ Bsc and MBBS etc. I call this tragedy for the nation. What a BA used to know 50 years back, an MA or Ph.D does not know today. There used to be professors of Mathes in Allahbad with BA degrees and mind you they were the greatest scholars. MBBS used to be a great degree just 30 years back and look now MDs sitting at every nukkad and their worth is not even equal to a RMP. Ph.D s are available in streets. Today's education has created great technical minds, no doubts about that. Unfortunately great teachers and great scientists are missing. Modern education could not create one Raman, one Meghnath Saha, one s.n. Bose or one JC bose. Proximity to big cities has become the yard stick of evaluating the grade of institution. IITs shining will note make Indian Education Shine my friends. We need to put life back in each and every university which has lost its past glory because of this pampering of IITs and these Centrally funded Labs.

Regards
Rajendra

[mbamal]

Dear Rajendra ji,

IITs r not known for their mess facilities...they can be worse than a dhabha...but they are known for the world renwowned, highly competitive undergraduate programs.
One would expect a learned person like you to make sensible comparisons. After reading your arguments its safe to assume that you know absolutely nothing about IITs or IITians nor you are aware of the research/teaching culture in IITs, IISc or institutes like TIFR. You say that PhD's are available in streets...can you tell me the numbers of PhDs produced by India in an year. I do not intend to question your wisdom or disrespect you in anyway..but please know the facts before you pass judgements.

[nvedwan]

Dear all,

I think one should try to put this situation in some sort of larger perspective. IITs have produced world-class undergraduates largely because of their a.) low selection ratios (therefore, for example, not necessarily the quality of faculty), b.) instituional autonomy (that is, freedom from political interference) c.) very high levels of funding per-capita (relative to other institutions, some of which have not even been able to buy books for decades).

There is no denying, however, that the IITs and IIMs have lagged behind in their reserach output. For instance, IIMA, which I am familiar with, still continues to rely primarily on Harvard case-studies for instruction. Now, why haven't the faculty been able to substitute these with case-studies done in India, and therefore, more relevant to the local conditions (especially for marketing)? Does the institutional culture, even in these elite institutions, discourage independent research? Compared to state universities, which have become third-rate teaching shops, these instituitions cannot really claim that they are suffering from lack of linkages with industry, and therefore stimuli for higher output. (at IIMs most faculty double as consultants, and there is a structure in place to encourage and manage it). There maybe issues related to the difficulty of publishing in international journals, which tend to be biased against third world contributors but by and large these institutions have not had the same research productivity as comparable (or even lesser) institutions abroad. The problem still is probably related to the lack of "pull" (rather than "push") factors: that is the lack of demand from industry, etc. (and here the structure of Indian economy with historically, relatively low levels of investment in R& D, maybe to blame. The situation is getting somewhat better now in the "knowledge" industries: IT, Pharma, Biotech). Of course, individual star reserachers (e.g., string theory advances at TIFR) continue to get accolades for their performance.

These issues apart, I think the prerequisites, at least, for successful higher education institutions are clear: autonomy and fiscal independence. as long as postings in these institutions are made to earn and accumulate political capital, the situation is bound to deteriorate. Also, there should a more even spread of these institutions across India, and rehabilitation of state universities will have to be a big part of it(allahabad univ,once the Oxford of the East, and now a sewer of kinds, Meerut university turning into a degree dukan, and so on). There will always be a hierarchy as far as insitutional prestige is concenrned but systematic cannibalization should be prevented. But then I doubt if that is what plagues India's higher educational system.

[rkumar]

Dear Mandeep,

I knew the type of response I was going to get when i posted my views. May be the values have changed and methods of evaluation have changed and this is why I view things on my yard sticks and you view at your yard sticks. For me the composit education is what matters and for you people only what sells in today's market place that matters. I have come across of this biological phenomenon where people try to down play the views of other class by saying that " I did not expect such answers from a persona like you "... This is a very well know method to shut others from expressing their views and I am well aware of this and sorry to tell you that even illiterate villagers use this to shut the educated ones. You look at the world through your prism and I look through mine. I do not know how much I know about TIFR and research in India, but what made you claim that you know everything? For your information I was a research scholar at PRL Ahemdabad and most of my group faculty came from TIFR. I have 55 publications and I started software programming when computers were not even a regular subject. I am a regular visitor to IIT Delhi and have many collegues working there, including Dr RP Dahiya. Now the number of Ph.Ds.. Do you know that you can get Ph.Ds from Universities like Agra, Meerut and 100s of them in MP without ever going there and just by registering under some third rate professor. I am sorry to say that most of you who just did their graduations have no clue what so ever about the research environment even in your own institution and what all plagues there in research. I wonder how much interaction a student has with his professor at his graduation level and how closely he knows him as far as his research caliber is concerned. I will take your view more seriously if you tell me your research background and how many papers have you published and if there is any patent in your name. I can tell you that I have spent much more time with IIT professors than probably you have. I know them much more closely as far as their research is concerned and I also know how their research compares with the world standard.

Rajendra

[adhanda]

hi,
i agree with you guys that IIT r shouldn't be considered any way different that other IITs (well I think its the tragedy of IIT Guwahati, its not able to catch up with other iits at right pace), anyways, but i have some points to mention

1) I dont like the attitude of roorkee's guys to cash on the name of IIT. Its my opinion that you need to clear JEE , and only then you can say yourself IITian, so the way these roorkee guys (51% of them got in roorkee by means of UP state domicile/SC/ST reservation) just changed their signature overnight with 'Student, IIT Roorkee' , sounds like they had no confidence on Univ of Roorkee, which was, I believe one of the best univs in India.

2) The idea of converting all good engg colleges into IIT is totally vague. Govt is just trying to cash in the name of IIT, which is going to dilute the 'brand name'. Look at USA, here we have MIT, Stanford, Berkeley, and every univ has its own 'brand name', so why can't india follow tha same step, why just IIT, let Roorkee be another 'Brand Name', and 'REC's' be another brand name, The only way to make a 'brand name' is not to just join the existing wave. Govt should provide more facilities and autonomy to RECs , if Mr Joshi likes the name "NIT" more then REC, thats fine with me !!

3) To be very honest, the reason for grand success of IITians is not that they have got something like 'einstein's brain' in them, I know couple of REC's guys, who, I am sure, are much better then some IITians, but the way things work in REC's, their curriculam, the faculty, everything hinders the making of REC at par with IITs, DOnt make them IIT, just create the same environment their, and then you would see the real comparison.

4) Going back to roorkee stuff, i believe that roorkee was among the topmost engg colleges of India always, so by converting it into IIT has destroyed whatever uniqueness it had. Like I know that in civil engg, no other engg college in india (including iits) can compete with roorkee, thats should be the aim, to have diff univs having excellence in different fields, not that convert all into IIT. Also, once you say JEE is the standard , but onviously if you increase the intake seats to 6000, even a guy getting something like 5000 rank would proudly be an IITian. But does he deserve that, thats the point

5) To choose IIT r comp sc. vs say iit kgp mech, well I dont think thats going to be the case. Looking at the present comp sc boom, its not fair to compare that field with anyother, but just for the information, its not that you want some degree from any IIT, in my time (1998), no one was willing to prefer for IIT g comp.sc. over say iit kgp mech. So i think iitr is gonna take some time too.

[mbamal]

Dear Rajendra,

I do not want to get in an argument with you...ofcourse with your 55 publications and experience..i stand no chance..but then again..i would have expected a more reasonable comparison from a gr8 researcher like you. I am still 22 and have just started my career in research..do you really want to compare your achievements against mine? I have nothing to prove and just out of respect for you I would not like to involve in any argument with you.
-------------------------

I completely agree with Abhishek...each institution is different...each individual is different....uniquesness is wat seperates one from the other.

[rkumar]

Mandeep Bamal (Feb 21, 2004 05:41 p.m.):
Dear Rajendra,

I do not want to get in an argument with you...ofcourse with your 55 publications and experience..i stand no chance..but then again..i would have expected a more reasonable comparison from a gr8 researcher like you. I am still 22 and have just started my career in research..do you really want to compare your achievements against mine? I have nothing to prove and just out of respect for you I would not like to involve in any argument with you.
-------------------------

I completely agree with Abhishek...each institution is different...each individual is different....uniquesness is wat seperates one from the other.

I am sorry Mandeep. This is not getting into argument. Again you are putting wrongly. This is discussion and the dicussion is purely academic. I would certainly love to be enlightened by you as to what more resonable comparison you expected from me ? Do you think any comparison will be resonable only when its along your expectations? You are just entering into research as you said and may be we will share our views when you have travelled some distance along this path. Soon you will know how much research is original and how much is just done for fooling the grant giving bodies. You will soon know how scietific research bodies are hijacked by so called Scientific mafias. Again a comment at your last sentense.. I do not know what argument/ discussion has to do with respect and age of a person. I will love to hear you if you have any points. There is no question of my loosing respect if I learn something from you, but for God's sake don't develop the habit of shutting others by your unique logics of expectations.

Rajendra

[palsaniya]

hi abhishek,

i do agree ur arguments,exactly situations like that...

1)Attitude of IIT-r guys want to cash on name of IITs.

2) I hv met - some of the Roorkee guys+girls in Inter IIT sports & cultural meet, bit difference between IITians n roorkee people...

as somebody was comparing culture of IITs with Roorkee..i think he doesn't know bout IITs culture ,atleast IIT-kgp.
According to our Inter IIT cultural meet,i felt->roorkee people don't hv good cultural sound.

3) Don't go behind politician's sounds..

4) this year ,some of my friends were not willing to prefer for IIT r comp.sc.some they preferred mechanical at iit-kgp.

But Finally roorkee also IIT due to politics...so we hv to accept it..:)..n don't underestimate somebody's ability, infact other than IITs also....

so IITs(including Roorkee) ka Tempo high hai !!!








Abhishek Dhanda (Feb 21, 2004 01:45 p.m.):
hi,
i agree with you guys that IIT r shouldn't be considered any way different that other IITs (well I think its the tragedy of IIT Guwahati, its not able to catch up with other iits at right pace), anyways, but i have some points to mention

1) I dont like the attitude of roorkee's guys to cash on the name of IIT. Its my opinion that you need to clear JEE , and only then you can say yourself IITian, so the way these roorkee guys (51% of them got in roorkee by means of UP state domicile/SC/ST reservation) just changed their signature overnight with 'Student, IIT Roorkee' , sounds like they had no confidence on Univ of Roorkee, which was, I believe one of the best univs in India.

2) The idea of converting all good engg colleges into IIT is totally vague. Govt is just trying to cash in the name of IIT, which is going to dilute the 'brand name'. Look at USA, here we have MIT, Stanford, Berkeley, and every univ has its own 'brand name', so why can't india follow tha same step, why just IIT, let Roorkee be another 'Brand Name', and 'REC's' be another brand name, The only way to make a 'brand name' is not to just join the existing wave. Govt should provide more facilities and autonomy to RECs , if Mr Joshi likes the name "NIT" more then REC, thats fine with me !!

3) To be very honest, the reason for grand success of IITians is not that they have got something like 'einstein's brain' in them, I know couple of REC's guys, who, I am sure, are much better then some IITians, but the way things work in REC's, their curriculam, the faculty, everything hinders the making of REC at par with IITs, DOnt make them IIT, just create the same environment their, and then you would see the real comparison.

4) Going back to roorkee stuff, i believe that roorkee was among the topmost engg colleges of India always, so by converting it into IIT has destroyed whatever uniqueness it had. Like I know that in civil engg, no other engg college in india (including iits) can compete with roorkee, thats should be the aim, to have diff univs having excellence in different fields, not that convert all into IIT. Also, once you say JEE is the standard , but onviously if you increase the intake seats to 6000, even a guy getting something like 5000 rank would proudly be an IITian. But does he deserve that, thats the point

5) To choose IIT r comp sc. vs say iit kgp mech, well I dont think thats going to be the case. Looking at the present comp sc boom, its not fair to compare that field with anyother, but just for the information, its not that you want some degree from any IIT, in my time (1998), no one was willing to prefer for IIT g comp.sc. over say iit kgp mech. So i think iitr is gonna take some time too.

[mbamal]

Rajendra...ok let me clarify what reasonable comparisons I am talking about..first you tried to compare IIT and IIT-R based on their dining facilities..then you compared their culture..for which i dont think u know anything about IITs culture (including IITR)..then you want to compare your research credentials against mine...do all these comparisons make any sense??

[rkumar]

Mandeep Bamal (Feb 22, 2004 09:13 a.m.):
Rajendra...ok let me clarify what reasonable comparisons I am talking about..first you tried to compare IIT and IIT-R based on their dining facilities..then you compared their culture..for which i dont think u know anything about IITs culture (including IITR)..then you want to compare your research credentials against mine...do all these comparisons make any sense??

Whole problem is when you decalre that other side does not know anything about IIT or TIFR etc and you want comparison only on the parameters of your choice. Its like telling;

1. Look at India only by its software prowess and not by its people peeing on roadside, deficating in open and so on....

2. Look at AIIMS only for the best MBBS it produces and not at the shabby corridores it has and the filthy surroundings inside..

2. Look at IITs only for the best graduates they produce and not anything else as you think IITs are holy cows and nothing can be questioned about them..

In an open discussion you can not set just the parameters of your choice. If to you its the quality of graduate education, to me its the composite education which includes many things. What makes you think that just by going your graduation from IIT you know everything about IIT and TIFR and me having contacts with the people there over last 27 years know nothing about these places?????? Please do not start discussions with assumptions and expectations. Do I need to tell you that there are lots of people even overseas who know more about India than 90% Indians.. Just living in India does not make one authority on Indian system or its culture. Same is true I suppose about being in IITs...or for that matter in any other place. Ok now since you claim to know everything about IIts and where they stand vice verse MIT, Stanford etc, please enlighten me on the following;

1. How many patents IITs have produced during their existence and how it compares with MIT and Stanford ? Don't count patents which its students have produced while being in USA as I don't consider that IITs contribution.

2. How many books have been written by IIT professors which are followed globally and how this number compares with those written by MIT and Stanford professors?

3. How mnay of your so called Graduate Study books are written by IIT professors and how many by Non IIT professors ?

4. How many reasearch papers IITs produce which are cited by international journals?

5. Tell me the index globally published and accepted on which IIT graduation programme has been declared to be comparable to the best in the world.. May be I am unawre of this. Please educate me.

Please don't take this to your heart, this is purely a discussion and not trying to prove one upmanship.

Rajendra

[sanjeevmalik]

[quote]Abhishek Dhanda (Feb 21, 2004 01:45 p.m.):
Note: This is a platform to discuss individual viewpoints and not a platform to downsize, downgrade or to belittle others.

Some facts as per my knowledge:
1. IITs have the highest government funding/subsidy per student in Indian Techical/Engineering Institutes.

2. IIT gets the better part of the cream of the brightest students (1-2% of the 200,000 approx. applicants). The distribution of the bright student is no way closer to be even, for what ever reason there might be.

3. IIT stands ahead of other engineering institutions in India.

4. It was a politician who started IITs and it’s the Government funds that an IIT thrives on. So if another politician does something different why does this politician become worse than the other? This doesn’t mean that I personally approve the political decision to rename Rookree U. to an IIT-R. I think that the politicians should have given better funding to Roorkee University and gave it a chance to compete with an IIT rather than bringing Roorkee U. under the IIT umbrella.

5. I know many students who get through the JEE just wish to be a part of an IIT just because it’s an IIT. I know students doing MSc from IIT as they cannot get any engg. Department in an IIT. I also know students doing/done Mtech from IIT trying to impress to create a perception of being IITians (B. Tech) knowing very well that M. Tech. program is not as good as the Undergrad program at IIT. So I guess it’s human nature to use the best of what they have got.

i agree with you guys that IIT r shouldn't be considered any way different that other IITs (well I think its the tragedy of IIT Guwahati, its not able to catch up with other iits at right pace), anyways, but i have some points to mention

1) I dont like the attitude of roorkee's guys to cash on the name of IIT. Its my opinion that you need to clear JEE , and only then you can say yourself IITian, so the way these roorkee guys (51% of them got in roorkee by means of UP state domicile/SC/ST reservation) just changed their signature overnight with 'Student, IIT Roorkee' , sounds like they had no confidence on Univ of Roorkee, which was, I believe one of the best univs in India.

Answer: I know you don’t like it, but that’s your personal opinion. I am sure that is the opinion of majority of the IITians. But ask this question to yourself. If you were a recent Roorkee alumni, and would you have not encashed or benefited to be a part of the better school, if you had a chance. I know you may reply saying “NO!! I would have kept my identity and the identity of my institute.” But just be practical.

2) The idea of converting all good engg colleges into IIT is totally vague. Govt is just trying to cash in the name of IIT, which is going to dilute the 'brand name'. Look at USA, here we have MIT, Stanford, Berkeley, and every univ has its own 'brand name', so why can't india follow tha same step, why just IIT, let Roorkee be another 'Brand Name', and 'REC's' be another brand name, The only way to make a 'brand name' is not to just join the existing wave. Govt should provide more facilities and autonomy to RECs , if Mr Joshi likes the name "NIT" more then REC, thats fine with me !!

Answer: I concur with you. I don’t like it myself. It’s not only government who is trying to encash the IIT brand. Most of the individuals/insititutes does try to encash do it one form or the other. I don’t like it. But it happens in practical life.

3) To be very honest, the reason for grand success of IITians is not that they have got something like 'einstein's brain' in them, I know couple of REC's guys, who, I am sure, are much better then some IITians, but the way things work in REC's, their curriculam, the faculty, everything hinders the making of REC at par with IITs, DOnt make them IIT, just create the same environment their, and then you would see the real comparison.

Answer: I totally concur with you here.

4) Going back to roorkee stuff, i believe that roorkee was among the topmost engg colleges of India always, so by converting it into IIT has destroyed whatever uniqueness it had. Like I know that in civil engg, no other engg college in india (including iits) can compete with roorkee, thats should be the aim, to have diff univs having excellence in different fields, not that convert all into IIT. Also, once you say JEE is the standard , but onviously if you increase the intake seats to 6000, even a guy getting something like 5000 rank would proudly be an IITian. But does he deserve that, thats the point

Answer: I get your point here. But why do you have to decide if the 5000th rank in JEE deserves to be an IITian. Since you know your capabilities, why don’t you just pay attention to yourself and do the best you can for yourself and the society/resources/community who helped you reach here.

5) To choose IIT r comp sc. vs say iit kgp mech, well I dont think thats going to be the case. Looking at the present comp sc boom, its not fair to compare that field with anyother, but just for the information, its not that you want some degree from any IIT, in my time (199 , no one was willing to prefer for IIT g comp.sc. over say iit kgp mech. So i think iitr is gonna take some time too

Answer: I don’t think, it was “NO ONE”, but may be the majority of higher rankers in JEE compared to lower rankers in JEE.

Thanks.

[mbamal]

Rajendra,

I do not have those stats...and i m not sure if anyone has them..people have better things to do then collect these stats. IITs are not famous for research...IITs are engineering universities and not research institutes like IISc or TIFR. IITs are famous for their undergrad education.IITs grads who are interested in research do not stay in IIT for M.tech of PhD...they go on to join western univs and research centers (why they do it is another thing). Thats where they contribute in research. Just as an example..I recently went to a conf. where 40% of the first authors were X-iitians. They were from, Intel, IBM, Stan, Georgia tech, Cornell, Umich etc etc. So when you talk about contribution towards research from iitians, make sure you know the situation.

You cannot expect a cow to lay eggs or a hen to give milk...can you??

[rkumar]

Mandeep Bamal (Feb 22, 2004 11:17 a.m.):
Rajendra,

I do not have those stats...and i m not sure if anyone has them..people have better things to do then collect these stats. IITs are not famous for research...IITs are engineering universities and not research institutes like IISc or TIFR. IITs are famous for their undergrad education.IITs grads who are interested in research do not stay in IIT for M.tech of PhD...they go on to join western univs and research centers (why they do it is another thing). Thats where they contribute in research. Just as an example..I recently went to a conf. where 40% of the first authors were X-iitians. They were from, Intel, IBM, Stan, Georgia tech, Cornell, Umich etc etc. So when you talk about contribution towards research from iitians, make sure you know the situation.

You cannot expect a cow to lay eggs or a hen to give milk...can you??

I am sorry once again... when you guys don't know what your institutions vital stats are, you call it that you have better things to do. What an answer.... Please let me know the name of this confrenece where 40% first authors were IITians ? I am sure these papers must be on some website. I am keen to look at these papers. Also please read the charter of IITs. They were created not just for undergraduate cources but for PG cources and research and many other things as well. You are just trying to highlight where IIts have excelled and not where they have failed. I would expect a balanced view from some one like you. I would be keen to know how many of your faculty member are ex IIT graduates? That will tell a lot about the quality of your faculty. And mind you, its not a waste of time to know the stats about one's institution. You will be on sound footing to put your case only when you know these figures, else its like talking in thin air...You will do a great service to the image of IITs if you can come out with these simple figures. And ...and...and.. If IITs are just engineering Universities and not the research institutions as per your statement, what the hell makes IITs any better than Roorkee, where from this discussion started ?????

Rajendra

[mbamal]

Rajendra,

please find some other IITian who might want to work on the stats u want...I am simply not interested...I see nothing positive coming out of this discussion with you. If u have something against IITs, thats a personal matter and I dont care! Just one comment on IITs faculty, most of them more than 55 publications...and much more international recognition.

[rkumar]

Mandeep Bamal (Feb 22, 2004 12:57 p.m.):
Rajendra,

please find some other IITian who might want to work on the stats u want...I am simply not interested...I see nothing positive coming out of this discussion with you. If u have something against IITs, thats a personal matter and I dont care! Just one comment on IITs faculty, most of them more than 55 publications...and much more international recognition.

Thanks Mandeep. Its fine, but you can look now back on our conversation and you have not been able to give even one single information on anything about your own institution. You need not answer any further but ask yourself now how much you know about IITs. Whenever it came to quoting the figures, you avoided all the answers. Trust me I am not againts IITs or for that matter against any institution. However, I would have loved a fair picture and not the popular picture. Never mind.. I would very much appreciate if you don't make this our conversation as the basis of our future relations and please don't brand me against IITs or anyone else. I suppose we close this here.

Rajendra

[mbamal]

Dear Rajendra ji,

Obviously I am still very young and naive (very much i guess) and have still much to learn. Since I was an undergrad at IIT so I was not so much exposed/involved at research at IITs. You were right in pointing out that I could not give enough data or stats to support my claims, but this kind of data is not available and its not easy to gather all that. I hope you can understand all that. Indeed as i went through my earlier posts in this thread I could easily see that I was making it more of a personal argument instead of a discussion. And I apologize for that. That is what I was afraid of, I never want to be disrespectful in any way to any of my seniors, thats the last thing I want to do. Well I guess that it is very much for me to hope that our future relations are not be affected by this small argument we had.
Best Regards,
Mandeep

[palsaniya]

mr. rajendra cool...

IITs are not for research, like m.tech. Phd. from IITs is not big sound !!!

IITs r famous only for producing talented smart graduate people who are dominating on world.





Rajendra Kumar Kalkhunde (Feb 22, 2004 10:28 a.m.):
Mandeep Bamal (Feb 22, 2004 09:13 a.m.):
Rajendra...ok let me clarify what reasonable comparisons I am talking about..first you tried to compare IIT and IIT-R based on their dining facilities..then you compared their culture..for which i dont think u know anything about IITs culture (including IITR)..then you want to compare your research credentials against mine...do all these comparisons make any sense??

Whole problem is when you decalre that other side does not know anything about IIT or TIFR etc and you want comparison only on the parameters of your choice. Its like telling;

1. Look at India only by its software prowess and not by its people peeing on roadside, deficating in open and so on....

2. Look at AIIMS only for the best MBBS it produces and not at the shabby corridores it has and the filthy surroundings inside..

2. Look at IITs only for the best graduates they produce and not anything else as you think IITs are holy cows and nothing can be questioned about them..

In an open discussion you can not set just the parameters of your choice. If to you its the quality of graduate education, to me its the composite education which includes many things. What makes you think that just by going your graduation from IIT you know everything about IIT and TIFR and me having contacts with the people there over last 27 years know nothing about these places?????? Please do not start discussions with assumptions and expectations. Do I need to tell you that there are lots of people even overseas who know more about India than 90% Indians.. Just living in India does not make one authority on Indian system or its culture. Same is true I suppose about being in IITs...or for that matter in any other place. Ok now since you claim to know everything about IIts and where they stand vice verse MIT, Stanford etc, please enlighten me on the following;

1. How many patents IITs have produced during their existence and how it compares with MIT and Stanford ? Don't count patents which its students have produced while being in USA as I don't consider that IITs contribution.

2. How many books have been written by IIT professors which are followed globally and how this number compares with those written by MIT and Stanford professors?

3. How mnay of your so called Graduate Study books are written by IIT professors and how many by Non IIT professors ?

4. How many reasearch papers IITs produce which are cited by international journals?

5. Tell me the index globally published and accepted on which IIT graduation programme has been declared to be comparable to the best in the world.. May be I am unawre of this. Please educate me.

Please don't take this to your heart, this is purely a discussion and not trying to prove one upmanship.

Rajendra

Yes man No one will doubt that after seeing your Photograph.

No offences Just Kiddin!!!!!!!

Risky_Jat
*******************************
[quote]R.C. Palsaniya (Feb 23, 2004 06:58 a.m.):
mr. rajendra cool...

IITs are not for research, like m.tech. Phd. from IITs is not big sound !!!

IITs r famous only for producing talented smart graduate people who are dominating on world.

[palsaniya]

Hello riski man ...would u like to tell who r u?? as joined jatland today itself n replied very fast....it didn't get u...??..why r u blotting out ur face..?.....

anyway kidding man...


chaudhary (Feb 23, 2004 09:10 a.m.):
Yes man No one will doubt that after seeing your Photograph.

No offences Just Kiddin!!!!!!!

Risky_Jat
*******************************
[quote]R.C. Palsaniya (Feb 23, 2004 06:58 a.m.):
mr. rajendra cool...

IITs are not for research, like m.tech. Phd. from IITs is not big sound !!!

IITs r famous only for producing talented smart graduate people who are dominating on world.

[privinay]

good thread.....

but Guys Don't fight bout IIT ,Roorkee/REC
Anyway both belong to INDIA
East or West INDIA is the BEST

cheers

[vjanu]

----
I would be keen to know how many of your faculty member are ex IIT graduates? That will tell a lot about the quality of your faculty.
----

As far as IIT Bombay is considered, most faculty members in the Engineering departments are from IITs (in fact, from IIT Bombay itself).

The quality of IITB's faculty is something I can not question. I have not interacted much with faculty from other IITs, but IITB faculty is pretty good (Can not call it best due to lack of comparision stats).

----
And mind you, its not a waste of time to know the stats about one's institution. You will be on sound footing to put your case only when you know these figures, else its like talking in thin air...You will do a great service to the image of IITs if you can come out with these simple figures.
----

The figures you asked for are anything but simple.

I know the poor chap made some mistakes in arguing emotionally and ignored some rules of formal debating by coming out without stats.

But by no means are those stats easy to get.

For example, I know that most IITB faculty are ex-IITians (I studied there till 2 years ago, so I know), but if you start nitpicking and ask me for numbers - I can not give you any. Nor am I interested in finding out the exact number. If someone does not believe me, all he has to do is go to IITB's website and check the faculty pages. And if someone thinks that such a stat is easy to compile, may be he can do the counting and post here.

----
And ...and...and.. If IITs are just engineering Universities and not the research institutions as per your statement, what the hell makes IITs any better than Roorkee, where from this discussion started ?????
----

This discussion started when someone said that he feels hurt when people from other IITs do not consider IIT-Roorkee people at par. I am sure that the stats that you ask for were not what he wanted.

To be honest, I do not consider and average Roorkee student (before it was made IIT) at par with an average IIT student. It has nothing to do with Roorkee and everything to do with JEE. Everyone on this thread agreed that it is the JEE that makes a difference in the quality of IIT students.

Thus, it made sense to compare Pre-IITR Roorkee students with their IIT counterparts. It is no longer valid because people who go to IITR have also cleared JEE.

I cleared JEE'98 and I do not consider an average Roorkee student of 98 batch at par with an average IITian of that year. Simple.

I consider an average student of IITR at par with an average student of any other IIT today.

Also, IIT students had a problem with the fact that as soon as Roorkee was made an IIT, even those students who had failed at clearing JEE started attaching IIT's name in their signatures. I think it was a valid problem. At least 4 batches of Roorkee students passed out from IIT Roorkee without clearing JEE!

Regards,

--
Vivek

Arey bhai Pal aapne wo photograph kyon change kar diii ????

kya gajab ke lagte they aap usme. :-)
yaar meri baat ka bura maan gaye kya ???

dost

R.C. Palsaniya (Feb 23, 2004 09:45 a.m.):
Hello riski man ...would u like to tell who r u?? as joined jatland today itself n replied very fast....it didn't get u...??..why r u blotting out ur face..?.....

anyway kidding man...


chaudhary (Feb 23, 2004 09:10 a.m.):
Yes man No one will doubt that after seeing your Photograph.

No offences Just Kiddin!!!!!!!

Risky_Jat
*******************************
[quote]R.C. Palsaniya (Feb 23, 2004 06:58 a.m.):
mr. rajendra cool...

IITs are not for research, like m.tech. Phd. from IITs is not big sound !!!

IITs r famous only for producing talented smart graduate people who are dominating on world.

[mbamal]

bhai janu....poor chap kise keh raha hai..lugaiyon kee tarah chugli karne kee aadat chhod de...saamne aavega to pant ke bhether e ---- dega...kade koi beham ho!

[itsnavin]

Janu bhai..I agree that it's the JEE which makes the difference not the IITs but I think a pre-Roorkee topper is better than average IIT student. Moreover, when it comes to choosing ur engg. line, you the rank where you are place. If one is Ranked 1st in pre-Roorkee test and 4000 in JEE, then ofcourse one will head to Roorkee not to IIT. I mean to say...there are a lot of things to addressed before we compare the two.
Cheers