My Disappointment - Election Related Debate on Jatland

[birbal]

I feel greatly disappointed by the level of discussion on various posts on this website relating to the election campaign and its outcome.

I read posts from well educated people that show total lack of fairness, decency, logic, and factual knowledge. One graduate student (a scholar by definition I assume) has concluded that Italians are scum (and as I wrote almost a year ago that those who portray other groups in a demeaning manner will face the consequence of their utterings in the future because the written record never goes away), several others have created their own definition of "Indian" (although we have a constitution and legal system), some have no hesitation in declaring others as idiots without providing any facts or logic to support their arguments.

If one looks carefully at the outcome of the election it is evident that the BJP and its allies got almost the same percentage of the votes as the previous election but the vastly different outcome is only due to our electoral system. BJP ruled the country with about 23% of the votes and this time they got about the same percentage of votes but the opposition was not as much divided as in the previous election. I will not be surprised if the Congress party is defeated in the next election but that is not the point of my post here.

I also have very strong opinions and I have been extremely active in politics all my life. But I am willing to provide logical arguments to support my position and willing to change my mind if someone has more convincing logic.

While growing up in Rajasthan I heard the equivalent words for scum and idiot used by RSS people against Jats and especially against the two Jat leaders in our area who fought hard to uplift the Jat community, Chaudhary Kumbharam Arya and Sardar Harlal Singh. I lived in the Jat Boarding in Jhunjhunu from 1955 to 1958 and because I always came first in class and I was strong in General Knowledge ( I could name all the MPs in the parliament with their affiliation) I got to talk with Sardar Harlal Singh occassionally when he stayed at the boarding. He never cared much about the opinions of these narrowminded people as he had a mission to help the community and that he did. ( I should mention that his nephew, Sanwat Singh, one of the brightest Jat young man was stabbed to death by Atal Behari Vajpayee's best friend Virendra Kumar Saklecha, who became Chief Minister of Madhya Pradesh).

As far as Sonia Gandhi is concerned, the only thing I can say that she proved her mettle by taking over the party at the bottom point and reviving it. She inherited nothing. The party was on the verge of collapse. Also, for 5 generations, from Priyanka Gandhi to Motilal Nehru. none of the individuals have done anything to harm the good name of the family. But, unfortunately, I see grandsons of a great man harming his name in Haryana.

When I look back at all the people who became Prime Minister of India I can say that with two exceptions we had people of integrity and character as Prime Ministers. The two exceptions are Morarji Desai and Atal Behari Vajpayee. I am sure whoever becomes the next prime Minister will be lot better than the current one.

I would like to challenge all Jats who have decided to support an anti-Jat party, BJP, for their self interest to provide me with some logic about the virtues of RSS, VHP, Hindutva etc. I also suggest them to read about E.V. Ramaswamy Naicker, better known as the Periyar, who freed the people of Tamilnadu from the yoke of the corrupt Hindu religion represented by the likes of RSS.

Birbal Singh

[chhoraharyanada]

Dear Birbal Singh Ji

Ram Ram

you write: "When I look back at all the people who became Prime Minister of India I can say that with two exceptions we had people of integrity and character as Prime Ministers. The two exceptions are Morarji Desai and Atal Behari Vajpayee. I am sure whoever becomes the next prime Minister will be lot better than the current one."

... I could not disagree with you more! Atal Behari Vajpayee is by far and away the best Prime Minister India has ever had. The facts and figures show this. For the first time, many Indians - especially those of us abroad - can turn around and say "ab tujhe pata hoga ke hindustan ki aukad kya hai?". The fact that one key topic (IT & outsourcing) in this years US presidential election is being debated heatedly reflects at the progress India has made in the last five years.

Since Vajpayee Ji came to power, I can list far more positive things than negative things. Straight away he took India's nuclear programme to another level. Under his stint, is India's economy growing the 3rd fastest in the world. Under his stint, has India become the 2nd largest IT supply market. Under his stint, have Indo-Pak relations been the warmest they've ever been.

And you say other PM's are better? Or better integrity? THAT IS NOTHING SHORT OF A JOKE! Could you please list all the great things of Lal Bahadur Shastri? Or Chandrashekar for that matter? VP Singh even? Rajiv Gandhi? I CHALLENGE ANYONE - to write the virtues of these bums down, and see if you can stretch it to longer than one paragraph (Combined!!) !!

And every other Prime Minister had integrity? Maaf karna uncle ji, but that is crazy?! Indira Gandhi by far and away was the worst PM we've ever had in that department. Nothing short of dictatorship (70's emergency and 84).
The Congress party has the UTTER CHEEK to call the BJP communal yet this is the party that played holi with sikh blood in 1984. All this under "Indira Mata". Please pass me the sick bucket!

Yes, I am a proud Jat. But I am also a proud Hindustani. I dont buy this pseudo-secular hogwash that we should be forever indebted to the "great" Gandhi khandan. Much of the things you talk about were in 1955 and 1958 etc. Uncle Ji, I was not even born then! If we want to jump back into time 50 years, then I am quite sure we can find a million and one shortcomings with the Jat community.
So please lets not get stuck in a time warp.

JAT KOM ZINDABAD!
HINDUSTAN ZINDABAD!

[jat1977]

>>>>>>>>... I could not disagree with you more! Atal Behari Vajpayee is by far and away the best Prime Minister India has ever had. The facts and figures show this. For the first time, many Indians - especially those of us abroad - can turn around and say "ab tujhe pata hoga ke hindustan ki aukad kya hai?". The fact that one key topic (IT & outsourcing) in this years US presidential election is being debated heatedly reflects at the progress India has made in the last five years.

##
I also respect Atalji, but boom in IT is not because of him. It was started much much earlier than that. Andhra and Karnatka are major contributors in this (Both Non BJP state). I wont go into details as everyone knows abt the facts behind IT.



>>>>> Since Vajpayee Ji came to power, I can list far more positive things than negative things. Straight away he took India's nuclear programme to another level. Under his stint, is India's economy growing the 3rd fastest in the world. Under his stint, has India become the 2nd largest IT supply market. Under his stint, have Indo-Pak relations been the warmest they've ever been.

##
Yes they did a good job but they did some bad jobs too. See what they had done to Tarun Tejpal's company Tehelka. Tehelka just unearthed a scam going on in defence purchases. Instead of praising them, they just destroyed them and their sponsors. Owner of 1st global was killed eventually.

>>>>And you say other PM's are better? Or better integrity? THAT IS NOTHING SHORT OF A JOKE! Could you please list all the great things of Lal Bahadur Shastri? Or Chandrashekar for that matter? VP Singh even? Rajiv Gandhi? I CHALLENGE ANYONE - to write the virtues of these bums down, and see if you can stretch it to longer than one paragraph (Combined!!) !!


##
Lal bahadur was a very very good man. Ask some elders in villages and they will tell you about him.

>>>>Much of the things you talk about were in 1955 and 1958 etc. Uncle Ji, I was not even born then! If we want to jump back into time 50 years, then I am quite sure we can find a million and one shortcomings with the Jat community.
So please lets not get stuck in a time warp.

##
I don't think so. ppl at that time were more honest and with integrity then today. They were not materialistic and greedy as ppl are now a days. Today even those jats who are abroad and plenty of money and a jat who is sipahi in police are not ashamed in asking for dowry. This was not the trend 30 years back.

[abhishek]

A little correction here, BJP is in power in Rajasthan because jats voted for it . Story was pretty same in Loksabha elections too. So are we going to say all those jats who voted for BJP are anti-jats or are not smart enough?
And I find it utterly disgusting to tell someone that a country of 1 billion with 10,000 years old civilization has an italian widow of former prime minister who happened to be son of a former prime minister who again was daughter of first prime minister of India as prime minister of India just because the vote was not in favor of her party but against ruling coalition.
It makes me even sadder to find out that it is happening in my nation.
And saddest was the inference that could be drawn out from post starting this thread that anyone ruing the fact that a foreigner is prime minister is a lesser jat or has inferior faculties?

[birbal]

Abhishek,

Only a small fraction of Jats voted for BJP in Rajasthan. But as you know in our electoral system that is enough to tilt the result.

Let me tell you that during the preindependence period a small fraction of Jats colluded with the feudals to oppress 99% of Jats. One of those Jat families is the Maharia family of the MP who is now MP from Sikar. Most of the Jats voted for Narayan Singh and Amra Ram but unfortunately, that split with the help of non-Jat BJP votes led to Maharia's victory. The same story is repeated in all constituencies where BJP won.

The only thing I can say that the man who did the greatest harm to the jats in Rajasthan ( Bhairon Singh Sekhawat) is extremely smart politician. The Rajasthan govt is totally under his control through his son-in-law, Nripat Singh Rizvi, and he has played cunning politics, and you can say it is our own fault to some extent and I would agree with it.

But, my point is that BJP is extremely anti-jat and they have used some traitors like the British used in India. If the Jats do not wake up they will lose all the gains they made since independence soon. Some of the younger people need to know recent history otherwise there fate will not be much better

[rkumar]

Dear Ramandeep,

Let me answer some of your questions. I am sure if not a book, I can certainly write a thesis on the contributions of every Prime minister.....I do not say that each one of them did not have their short comings as well..

1. For your information the first atomic explosion took place in 1974 when Indra Gandhi was the PM.

2. The slogan of taking India into 21st centuray was given by Rajiv Gandhi and it was he who commissioned persons like Syam Pitroda for the telecommnication we have today. It was he who spoke of computers and it is he who initiated the modern IT boom in India. Name me one IT company in India which has pre Rajiv Gandhi history...
3. Lal Bahadur Shastri was the person who put India on self sufficieny in food production. It was he who realised the importance of farmer.
4. All your Steel plants and BHEL, BEL and BARC etc were started by Nehru.. Can you tell me how many countries who got their freedom with India can boast of Steal mills and Atomic reasearch Institutions ?? Do you think Atal Vihari gave all this???? Only best thing Atal Vihari initiated is the widening of highways...

5. Ch Charan Singh, VP Singh at their likes were for too short a period and its no use talking about them here.

6. It was PV Narshimha Rao who started the liberalisation with Mohan Singh as his PM and present BJP only carried forward ..

7. Maximum damage done to Indian fabric in recent memory is by LK Advani and VP Singh who started caste based and religion based politics..How can one agree that Atal remaining PM with the support of Advani and likes is any different than them..??

8. Memory is very short and people forget the contribution of leaders too soon. It was Mrs Gandhi who stood like rock when US was with its 7th fleet in Bay of Bengal and Indian army was busy liberating Bangla Desh. She had the guts to rbuff Nixon and Regan..when it came to Indian interest.

I can write volumes on the contributions of these people but let us accept the time and space does not permit here.

Rajendra

[anilkc]

"The verdict may not be to everyone's satisfaction, but that's the way things stack up in a democracy. In the past the people have voted in alleged murderers, the corrupt, alleged rapists etc and we have accepted the verdict; in the face of the public mandate for her, should the mere fact of birth be held against her?"

Top 3 reasons for BJPs loss (as i see it):
1) In a country of 1 billion with 10,000 years old civilization, BJP could not find a "healthy" PM.
2) The way it handled "bad stuff" was no better than congress or any other party. It failed to distinguish.
3) BJP's undignified campaign against a woman.

[chhoraharyanada]

To Kalkhunde Ji and Vijay Latiyan,

Please read my posts carefully.
I did not say things like "IT boom was started by Vajpayee", neither did I say "India's nuclear programme was started by Vajpayee".

I said that:
"he took India's nuclear programme to another level"
&
"Under his stint, is India's economy growing the 3rd fastest in the world. Under his stint, has India become the 2nd largest IT supply market".

I'm not denying Naidu or former PM's laid the foundation stones, but ultimately the skyscraper was built under Vajpayee.

And also to Kalkhunde Ji, OK - yes you have listed some valid points about other PM's. But I was responding to the very 1st post of this thread saying the Atal Bihari Vajpayee was a man of no integrity and was one of our worst PM's. I find that statement nothing short of ridiculous.

[chhoraharyanada]

Abhishek Dhama (May 14, 2004 12:43 p.m.):
A little correction here, BJP is in power in Rajasthan because jats voted for it . Story was pretty same in Loksabha elections too. So are we going to say all those jats who voted for BJP are anti-jats or are not smart enough?
And I find it utterly disgusting to tell someone that a country of 1 billion with 10,000 years old civilization has an italian widow of former prime minister who happened to be son of a former prime minister who again was daughter of first prime minister of India as prime minister of India just because the vote was not in favor of her party but against ruling coalition.
It makes me even sadder to find out that it is happening in my nation.
And saddest was the inference that could be drawn out from post starting this thread that anyone ruing the fact that a foreigner is prime minister is a lesser jat or has inferior faculties?

I wholeheartedly agree with you.
Are Jats that vote BJP anti-Jat?! Of course not!
Let us not forget that Haryana was a 10-out-of-10 NDA state before this election. Were those Jats anti-Jat then but have now had a "Jat-shuddi" of sorts?!

[rameshlakra]

dear all
if i have understood correctly , the debate here is ....where does interest of jat lies ......is it BJP or congress ........

so i dont see any reason in highlighting the achivement of succesive PM or government .

well ....if we are serious about the interest of jats ,then we have to be serious politician first and in politics no alignment is permanent . whoever gives u better deal u go for it , whole heartidly and complete .

we need some serious leaders here ....not ajit singh , chauala , lals who can not open there mouth in delhi and has hollow mind and thinking with no real agenda other then personal agenda of pulling their own people down .

so instead of blaming BJP and congress , we need to stand united with anybody who give us a better deal and for the time being we should be demanding enough to the BJP IN rajasthan and pressurriseour ur jat mahasbha people to get there act going in identifying the work needs to be done .

even the centre can be asked to something for our people , now that they has got a full mandate from haryana ...

regards

[birbal]

I did not start this post to choose between BJP and Congress. My main objective was to educate some younger members about the true nature of BJP/RSS as being Jat hating group. As I said some Jats may support BJP for their short term self interest but it will certainly result in serious long term harm to the broader community.

E.V. Ramaswammy Naicker recognized such danger to his community and founded Dravida Kazaggam (the forerunner of DMK, AIADMK etc.). The word Dravida is misleading here. He was really a Jat equivalent in Tamilnadu and he saw that they were being suppressed by traditional Hindu religion. He woke up his community and literally got rid of the old fashioned religion. The progress to his community has been phenomenal.

Also, one should know that at one time Islam was the religion that encouraged science and scholarly pursuits and up to sisteenth century Muslims were ahead of the rest of the world. The Fundamentalist movement that began long time ago in Islam has brought them back to middle ages and now there situation is truely pathetic.

We should be careful not to allow these Hindu fundamentalists to drag India into the middle ages. Remember all these BJP and Shiv Sena leaders who profess Hindutva send their kids to English schools.

[rameshlakra]

dear birbal ji
regards ...
very true , we need some revolution for jats , some kind of selfless leaders and my views from my previous post stands ....

{
we need some serious leaders here ....not ajit singh , chauala , lals who can not open there mouth in delhi and has hollow mind and thinking with no real agenda other then personal agenda of pulling their own people down
}

TRUE we should stay away from hindu fundamentalist , and in any case the hindutava they are promoting is not hindutava but a pandatava , it is nothing but the selfish interpratation of pandits .
hindu is not a religion but a dharma and english has no equivalent of dharma , hindu is a way of life and not a religion it is brahmins who created 34000 gods and hindu dharam as such had no face of god , other then the supreme being .....brahman .

on the second thought , we should not get into the nitty gritty of their(parties) belief and thinking as long as they are doing something for the community , remmember whatever we say we can not progress without them too , one has to take the ground realities ,and actual view on ground .

so with this my view of the previous post are augmented . thanku

[ajmer]

Folks,

I agree with Dr. Birbal Singh that we have to be careful about calling anyone names. Along these lines, the other thread should simply be removed.

There is nothing wrong in having a political discussion as long as it doesn't reflect badly upon you as an individual and the community as a whole.

Now back to the discussion, I don't think there is anything wrong in a party name. For the most part it depends on the people of the party. A good person can be in found in any party. I think Atal Bihari Vajpayee was a good person overall. The country did make good progress during his tenure. Let us wait and see how the next PM does.

Also, for the most part the election is won based on really good politics and individual character of the person. I think Congress won mostly for the individual people involved and for one single person. In fact, congress won because of BJP's mistakes by associating them with the upper casts, directing the muslim and poor votes towards congress.

I have heard that Ch. Chautala did some good for Jats. Maybe that was one of the reason his party didn't fair so well in the elections. Anti-incumbency factor, strong Jat sentiments associated with Ch. Chautala, division of Jat votes were probably the main factors for such a poor performance.

But then it is politics and everything is fair in politics. Dekhte hain unt kis karwat baithega.

So it is not just doing good work which winds the election, it is good politics that wins the votes. Look at Chanderbabu Naidu.

I am very optimistic on India's future as the world largest democracy. This was democracy at it best. Yes, there is room for improvement and I can see it getting better.

Congratulations to Ch. Bhupinder Hooda, Ch. Sangwan and Ch. Ajit Singh for their wins. I wish good luck to Ch. Chautala and many other Jat (or more appropriately rural) leaders which are to come.

-ajmer

[rameshlakra]

dear ajmer ji
regards ..
i dont think chautalas lost becouse of associating with jats and doing well for them . nobody could lose in haryana with full jat support , on the contrary jats hold the key to success in nearly all the consitituancies .

according to my appreciation it is their tyrancy and indifference to common mens izzat and autocratic style of ruling , without much development that scrapped them from the face of haryana .

there is hardly any depth is such leaders thinking , infact they cant be called leaders , they are just oppurtunist , who just fill there coffers and wait for another time , as people have very short lived memories .

the less told about them , better it is in the genral interest of the community , after all something is better then nothing . i dont know when this something has to pave way for good things .lets wait and pray for our people then .

[ajmer]

Folks,

I would also like to add that India is a real democracy. The PM doesn't have the absolute power as is the case in many other countries. The power is really shared between the President, PM, Ministers and MPs.

It is also evident that doing nothings is not an option for a leader in India as was the case in early days of Independence. In a real democracy, the public may not reward you for good job but it centainly punishes you for your mistakes.

-ajmer

[ajmer]

Dear Ramesh Ji,

You may be right. While I was in India this during Nov-Dec of last year I got this feeling that Chautala made the most Jat appointments in key positions and people were generally happy.

On the other hand I did notice that hamare gaon main nahar ka pani pichhale ek saal se nahi aya tha, jo nahar har do hafte main aati thi. Standard of education has really gone down in govt and most private schools. Law and order situation has gotten worse and corruption is on the rise.

But then I don't like the idea of free electricity for the farmers or for anyone for that matter.

I guess you can always find some goods and some bads in a politician. We do know that ultimately it is the will of the people who will ultimately decide who survives.

-ajmer

Ramesh Lakra (May 14, 2004 03:51 p.m.):
dear ajmer ji
regards ..
i dont think chautalas lost becouse of associating with jats and doing well for them . nobody could lose in haryana with full jat support , on the contrary jats hold the key to success in nearly all the consitituancies .

according to my appreciation it is their tyrancy and indifference to common mens izzat and autocratic style of ruling , without much development that scrapped them from the face of haryana .

there is hardly any depth is such leaders thinking , infact they cant be called leaders , they are just oppurtunist , who just fill there coffers and wait for another time , as people have very short lived memories .

the less told about them , better it is in the genral interest of the community , after all something is better then nothing . i dont know when this something has to pave way for good things .lets wait and pray for our people then .

[anilkc]

The only way to stop any party from being "anti-jat" is to join them. Look at Scindias, some are in congress and some in BJP. Koi bhi aye koi farak nahi padta, Scindias are safe.

[chhoraharyanada]

In the last 5 years of NDA, both Naidu and Chautala were part of the NDA Gov't.
Naidu always laid out to the likes of Vajpayee and Advani what he wanted for his people and his state. He might have greased his hands a little along the way, but all-in-all visible development was occuring in Hyderabad and with regards to IT etc.

Chautala - on the other hand ... so far, all we've heard is widening of roads and a few minor things. As long as he was happy drinking and his aulad's eating lots of food, haryana ke jaat baarh mein gaye.

Anil ... (with regard to Scindias) ... good approach! Jews in the west do that a lot.

[birbal]

Let me provide a brief look at the history regarding Scindias. In the 3rd battle of Panipat in 1761, Madhoji Scindia, Damaji Gaekwad and Malhar Rao Holkar ran away from the battlefield leaving 25,000 Jats and the Maratha leader Sadashiv Rao Bhau in a siuation where they were clobbered. In 1857 Scindia betrayed the great freedom fighter, Tantia Tope, and in a book by a British woman about Maharajas (written in 1939) described the Dholpur family as the most loyal British supporters. I do not consider such an attribute to be positive.

The Jews do no such thing in the West. In the USA, Jews are overwhelmingly democratic party supporters, and in Canada they are mostly Liberal party supporters.

It may sound a good idea to join a party to change it but what kind of person will join a party that considers his whole community as worse than scum? This was the whole point of my post to begin with as I was not trying to support Congress party at all but letting people know what BJP is.

Let me clarify my political background. I come from an extremely poor Jat family but despite the feudal oppression my poor father was an activist ( he is a freedom fighter pension holder) and though he had no money he had value for education. In 1957, my brother-in-law, Shri Lachhu Ram (as the Kisan Sabha candidate) defeated the Congress candiadate, Thakur Bhim Singh of Mandawa. Later on he was elected for the Lok Dal of Chaudhary Charan Singh in 1977 but died soon after at a young age of 50.

But I can say that the Congress party played a role in uplifting Jats in Rajasthan mainly due to the efforts of Chaudhary Kumbha Ram Arya and Sardar Harlal Singh. I recall in 1957 when Sukhadia was manipulating against Jats by denying tickets, sardar Harlal Singh told Nehru that "Congress apke baap ki zaydad nahin hai" Nehru was stunned, but in the Congress one could speak out. Further I remember in 1962 or so when Sukhadia bribed few Jat traitors to vote against Kumbha Ram Arya for the Pradesh Congress Chief, and he asked those people to make a specific mark on the ballot. Kumbha Ramji was looking slowly at each ballot and Sukhadia asked "Chaudhary Sahib kya dekh rahe ho?" Kumbha Ramji said "tere kaley karnamon ke sabut dekh raha hun". A jat can never have that level of rights in BJP and I know what words they use to describe the whole community. Only a person with total lack of self-respect can join such party. Of course, there is no problem in having temporary alliance with a party but joining it is a different ball game.

[dsmolurd]

I strongly concur with Dr. Birbal. I am no history buff, but you don't need to be one to be aware of the intense hatred and despise these RSS/BJP "you name the animal" worshippers have for our community. If you are not aware of it then you must be living in some rather deep hole.

It's hard to know where this comes from. But my guess is that the intensely independent Jat nature has withstood the Brahminical ploys through the centuries. Our community has always denied them any exulted status. They fooled the Rajputs, but couldn't manage the Jats.

On top of that our bravado and "in your face" approach leaves them with deep fear of us. So they tackle it with the way they know best: brain washing, manipulating history, educational, economical and political suppression. They can't handle us directly. So they work in more cunning and devious ways. And full credit to them for doing so remarkably well.

However, as obnoxious as these devils (oh ! I meant to say the "descendants" of rishi munnis) are, they are here and we can't wish them away. They'll continue to play their games and we'll continously need to battle them.

However, to assume that these vile forms of human species can only be found within the BJP/RSS would be erroneous at best. These devils come in various forms, changing shape and form as often as they try to change our history books. Infact the BJP/RSS types are easier to identify and be aware of. It makes it easier to see through them and protect ourselves.

Indeed, the very reason that old, impotent, "farting in the dhoti" Vajpayee had been chosen by the BJP baboons was that he was the more cunning amongst their species. The party needed an opaque true Bahman like him to mask its true nature. And again full credits to him. He had the world and nation fooled. Jats talk about him as "Vajpayee Ji". I puke at the very thought. The Advanis and Joshis have lost the Bahmanical skills to mask and decieve. No wonder we can better protect ourselves from them. We can see the enemies. Vajpayee is however a different beast.

However, there is an old saying: "It is wise to befriend the enemy". There is a lot of depth in this little statement. By staying close to these devils we will be able to keep abreast of their ploys and be better able to understand their cunning ways. We need to be aware of how their devious minds work. We need to be part of their organisations, work with them, within them.
The fear is that doing so we may become one of them and lose our identity.

Unfortunately, the congress baboons are hardly any better. Truthfully, they might have more Vajpayees than the BJP/RSS.

We just have to stand for ourselves, make alliances of convenience as necessary...and try to come up with the upper hand.

And that's the real task. To be aware of who we are and where we want to go. To stick together as a community and not allow these demons to fragment us and use us for their own gains and agendas. To empower ourselves through them but despite them.

I wonder if Chautala is becoming more and more adept at that ? He had them pretty good in the last assembly elections, and now he might take them for a ride in the next ones as well.

We shall see.

[rksehrawat]

Dear Birbal Sir,

As regards your evaluation of Vajpayee as a worse PM than even Indira or Rajeev, Gujaral or Deve Gowda, VP Singh or Chandrasekhar, than God be with India. By your evaluation you have proved that for some people even a tree written Congress on it is the best leader in the world. It is beyond anybody's comprehension as to how Sonia could be a better leader than Atal. You may be right in your optimism sir but I have my doubts especially with Laloo on her side ? Let us see what is in store for India in the coming years ?

JAT - Justice And Truth.

[rksehrawat]

Dear Dr. Birbal,

You are perhaps forgetting that our great Jat leaders beginning with Sir Chootu Ram preferred to keep a distance from Congress. Ch. Charan Singh and Tau Devi Lal both worked with Vajpayee in 1980 and had alliance with him. Are you trying to say that they didn't care for the interests of jats. In the NDA govrnment there were more jat Ministers than any other previous governments, three at least I can recall at once, Dr. Sahib Singh Verma, Vikram Verma, Chhatrapal besides the evergreen turncoat Ajit Singh ? How can anyone say he was aginst jats. He gave more tickets to jats than any other party at national level, even more than INLD or Chaudhary Charan Singh's Lok Dal. What did Congress do for jats ? Just use them by turning jat pahalwans into goondas and dump them after they purpose is served ?

JAT - Justice And Truth

[chhoraharyanada]

Dr. Birbal Singh (May 14, 2004 08:37 p.m.):

The Jews do no such thing in the West. In the USA, Jews are overwhelmingly democratic party supporters, and in Canada they are mostly Liberal party supporters.

.


Dear Birbal Singh Ji,

Ram Ram

In the UK, you have jews both in the Conservative Party and the Labour Party. Similar story in France.

[chhoraharyanada]

Ram Ram

well said R.K Sehrawat!

[naveen_chaudhary]

For those supporting Congress and critcising BJP/Vajpayee- Are we saying that before 1999 (when congress was ruling most of the times since independence) there was no poverty or a poor man or problems in India and then all of a sudden Vajpayee came to power and in just 5 years created a nation where more than half of the population is below poverty line? Amazing!!!!!!
For the same lot - I hope now (when Congress is going to rule again) we'll have same (pre-BJP) utopia again! Well !!! All the best mates!

[birbal]

The true counterpart of BJP/RSS in England is National Front and in France is the party of Le Pen. I can not imagine any Jew in those parties. I have made no attempt to supprt Congress. The only thing I am saying is that BJP/Rss is evil and it is a disgrace for a Jat to join it. Temporary aliances are a different matter.

[chhoraharyanada]

Dr. Birbal Singh (May 15, 2004 05:58 a.m.):
The true counterpart of BJP/RSS in England is National Front and in France is the party of Le Pen. I can not imagine any Jew in those parties. I have made no attempt to supprt Congress. The only thing I am saying is that BJP/Rss is evil and it is a disgrace for a Jat to join it. Temporary aliances are a different matter.

Dear Birbal Singh Ji,

Ram Ram

you write: "The true counterpart of BJP/RSS in England is National Front and in France is the party of Le Pen."

sorry but that is just outright ridiculous. The National Front are not even a political party, just a group of racist thugs - a more accurate analogy would be something like the Bajrang Dal.
BJP is a hindu nationalist "centre right" party - and the corresponding "centre right" in the UK is the Conservative Party. And France - Jacques Chiraq's party.

"I have made no attempt to supprt Congress. The only thing I am saying is that BJP/Rss is evil and it is a disgrace for a Jat to join it."

... tho theek hai fir. Lalloo ko aap support dijiyega. If you feel that is a better alternative to BJP yaa Congress.

[rksehrawat]

Dear Dr. Birbal Singhji,

By your posts are you trying to prove that people like Dr. Sahib Singh Verma who worked tirelessly for the welfare of jats are a disgrace to the Jats. We should not forget that it was he who brought Nivedita College for Women to the border village of Kair so that our village girls from Delhi and Haryana villages around Bahadurgarh, who were reluctant to go to far off places to study after school, could acquire higher education. It is a pity that petty minded voters defeated him against notorious Sajjan Kumar, whose only asset is his goondaism being from the so called Sanjay brigade of emergency era. As for party politics, modern day politicians doesn't seem to believe in that. Politics these days is like a train and the parties are its compartments. If a politician don't get seat in one he immediately hops to the other. There were scores of people who when denied tickets by BJP contested on Congress tickets and vice versa. Hence, attaching principles to any party is a futile exercise on which we should not waste our time. It is also said that Sonia proved her mettle by leading Congress to power. An utter nonsense. If she had any magic or determination why congress didn't win in Kerala, Punjab, Karnataka and Uttaranchal where they are ruling party besides the three states of Rajasthan, MP and Chhatisgarh ? No sir, this is not the vote for or against any one but people's impatience. They are looking for a miracle to take place in a single term which is simply not possible. Everybody, lakhs of students churned out by our universities, want jobs for which no party with semi-illiterate leaders has any answer ? Unless really educated people with a sense of service to the nation with all sincerety enter the political arena we will continue to have this drama every five years or even at shorter durations ? If anybody thinks that people like Sonia, Laloo and Coms can take India forward, they are definitely very good day dreamers.

You must have seen in the newspapers that even before formation of the government differences over disinvestment, relations with USA and peace with Pakistan, petrol prices have cropped up. This is just a sample of things to come in the days ahead. I distinctly remember that euphoria created by Rajiv's election as PM in 1984, how he became a butt of jokes, and the way his tenure ended in 1989.

Regards.

[rajendersingh]

dear all,
if congress was so good to jats, can any body tell me how many jats were made ministers in central govt cabinet from the year 1947 to 1975.if yes what were their portfolis.

[birbal]

I have to keep on posting here in hope of clarifying my views and awakening at least those who have been tricked into believing that BJP/RSS is not so bad. Of course, I have neither the ability nor the intent to try to convince those who support BJP/RSS for their self interest no matter how harmful it is for the broader community.

I am not thrilled by the state of political parties and so-called leaders in India. Most of them have no principles and no ideology. But BJP/RSS is an exception as it has a definite ideology (and Vajpayee, Advani etc. are 100% product of RSS ideology) and unfortunately, its ideology is what makes it so evil and dangerous.

First, let me go back to E.V. Ramaswammy Naicker. What he achieved was the total annihilation of the traditional Hindu religion in the earstwhile Madras state (now Tamilnadu). Of course, his people, being just like Jats started fighting among themselves and soon there were DMK, AIADMK, PMK, MDMK etc. But because he had eradicated the evil like RSS despite all the infighting the state kept progressing and is still progressing. I am again reiterating that the leaders of DMK etc. keep on changing alliances but at least they are free of the EVIL that keeps us Jats behind. For years the south Indians came to the north looking for jobs and per capita income of Punjab/Haryana/Rajasthan was far higher than southern states. Now I can not believe the gap between per capita income of the so-called Hindu heartland (UP, Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh, Bihar and Haryana) and the south. The northern states are in an awful mess compared to the south. Just like the fundamentalists in Islam brought down the entire Muslim world, the likes of RSS will drown India. The reason is that the ideology of RSS is strictly based on hatred. They hate Muslims, they hate Jats, Gujars, Ahirs (and you can name many more groups). Excuse me but you are free to join and stay with them but I do not like a group which calls my entire community as worse than scum.

Are you trying to convince me that I should like Sahib Singh because he started one girl's college. You go and take a look at the Grameen Mahila sansthan in Sikar set up by ordinary Jats (mainly organized by my late father-in-law, Sukhveer Singh Batar), and many schools in Rajasthan. By just joining BJP and giving support and comfort to the Jat haters he has done a great disservice to the community.

If someone wants to live with the realities of politics there is no harm in having temporary alliance with any one. In the second world war Soviet Union, USA and UK were on the same side. But that does not mean Churchill joined communist party or Stalin left communist party. Joining a party and allying with a party are completely separate things. I have no problem with Charan Singh joining the crooks in 1977 to oust Indira Gandhi because that was a greater goal at the moment and it was temporary. I was in Canada at that time and I remember a celebration held when Indira Gandhi was defeated and one of the person with high standing in RSS who immigrated to Canada said what a great moment it is except that a "Gadha" has been given the position of Home Minister (Charan Singh). He had to hear a lot harsher language from me. I can tell you with absolute confidence that you are free to join that kind of group but their ideology is cast in stone and I and you both know what they call us.

Once, again, elections will come and go in a democracy, and governments will change, but certain ideolgies will not change and it is our responsibility to judge various ideologies with clear mind. India is a massive country and no one can solve all the problems or even some of the problems. But getting rid of evil elements at least provides some hope. Trying to throw hopeless arguments that if one opposes Vajpayee he is supporting Lalloo or Sonia is not very productive.

Coming to goondaism, I hear from you that Sajjan Kumar is one. He may have behaved like one and I am not supporting him but one thing I know for sure that Promod Mahajan is goonda by profession not just on some occassions.

As far as the threat from Muslims is concerned I can say that today the Muslims are threat to no one in the world except themselves. It is a sorry state to be in. The BJP/RSS will take us in the same situation too unless we have a Periyar in the north.

[birbal]

Rajender Singh (May 15, 2004 09:38 a.m.):
dear all,
if congress was so good to jats, can any body tell me how many jats were made ministers in central govt cabinet from the year 1947 to 1975.if yes what were their portfolis.


Dear Rajinderji,

I can tell you that the progress made by jats in Rajasthan between 1947 and 1977 can only be described as spectacular. We were poor, uneducated and backward who suffered under feudal states. there were a handful of Jats who collaborated with the feudals in the exploitation of their community. In the 30 years from 1947-1977 Jats came from the bottom to top. It was the rule of BJP under Bhairon Singh Sekhawat that set back the progress of the community.

You do not necessarily help a community by appointing a few stooges in the cabinet who do nothing for the community.

[abhishek]

Dr. Birbal Singh (May 15, 2004 11:33 a.m.):
You do not necessarily help a community by appointing a few stooges in the cabinet who do nothing for the community.

Agreed!

As I say this I am not a great supporter of BJP nor I am a sworn enemy of Congress.
Jats progressed not just because Congress has been extra considerate for their interests it is because of their own efforts and courage. When it comes to politics it is just matter of votes and in Rajasthan jat votes matter so no party ( yes not even BJP) can win there without hearing them.
For that matter it was BJP which agreed to reservation demand( which I think is quite justified) inspite of fact that Shekhawat was still at helm of affairs in state BJP unit and must have opposed it tooth and nail. And now rajputs are crying foul, but who cares 20 years down the line jats will be well entrenched in government positons and even if 10% of those care about community I think we are almost there and that´s what matters. We build our own destiny not a policitical party!!!!

One british politician said relationships are never permanent but interests are. And that should be our mantra....that´s what brahminist elite have been doing for centuries. Let them taste their own medicine.

[chhoraharyanada]

Dear Birbal Singh Ji,

you write: "the likes of RSS will drown India. The reason is that the ideology of RSS is strictly based on hatred. They hate Muslims, they hate Jats, Gujars, Ahirs (and you can name many more groups). Excuse me but you are free to join and stay with them but I do not like a group which calls my entire community as worse than scum."

... other than a few recollections of yours from the 1950's, can you please provide some solid proof or basis for these accusations.ie, Where do the likes of Sudarshan and Togadia single out Jats,Gujjars etc for abuse?! Musalmaan - chalo,haan maan liya. But Jats, Yadavs, Gujjars etc?! kaha?!

you write: "As far as the threat from Muslims is concerned I can say that today the Muslims are threat to no one in the world except themselves."

... based on what exactly?
Israel,Iraq,Kashmir,Bangladesh,Indonesia,Africa etc - so you are trying to tell us that the people of those places are not threatened by islam; but it is the muslims who are the threatened?!

that's pseudo-secularism in its worst form!

[birbal]

Ramandeep,

The ideology of RSS is based on the traditional Hinduism which decides your fate on the basis of birth. The ideology is permanent so it is not important to give some recent evidence against it. I am not limiting to my own experiences. Baburao Patel (he became an MP in 60s) was bright but a poor peasant's son in Maharastra and once his father told a big Hindu leader that my son wants to become a lawyer when he grows up. The leader replied "why, have all the Brahmins dead". The mentality is permanent.

As far as Muslims are concerned I am just stating a stark fact that they have gone back to the middle ages and all they are capable of doing now is to harm themselves. The countries you named other than Israel are almost 100% Muslim and look at their state. Would you like India to be like them?

As far as Israel is concerned, it is the location that makes them target and I am sure they are capable of dealing with it. By the way, my only son, a radiologist is married and my daghter-in-law is Israeli and has part of her family still living in Israel. I have personal interest in the welfare of Israel. So, I am not trying to be sympathetic to Muslims, just bringing out the factual situation.

I am trying to relate the downfall of Islam to the potential danger to India from BJP/RSS ideology because when it comes to fundamentalism all religions have serious negative potential. The fundmentalists essentially bring down a sociey by stifling free and open debate on issues of importance.

Since I am rather old and have been out of India for a long time but kept up with the goings on not only in India but most of the world I can provide lot of evidence of dangers of fundamentalism everywhere including India.

The ideologies like BJP/RSS that include other fundamentalists like Muslims and Christian fundamentalists tend to dumb down a society. If you know something about USA you will know that the states where Christian fundamentalists are stronger are the ones with lower standards of education, income and tolerance. That is the same reason the Indian heartland where BJP is gaining influence (Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh, Chhattisgard, UP, Haryana, Bihar) is falling behind the southern part of the country.

[rksehrawat]

Dear Dr. Birbal,

I think we are straying from the main point as to where the interest of our community lies. You will appreciate that most of our leaders were treated shabbily by Congress leadership and they had to leave it. Sir Chhotu Ram, Ch. Charan Singh, Ch. Devi Lal, Bansi Lal, Jagdeep Dhankhad and other present day leaders are the shining example of Congress hate towards jats. All jats leaders have at one time or the other have been cheated by the congress, used and dumped. I am sure a person of your calibre remember how the first Congress PM Jawaharlal was welcomed by the Jats of Bahadurgarh. He was virtually physically thrashed for his anti-jat policies. This is a documented record. Shastri was the only exception and only during his PMship some jats had tilted toward Congress. You may also perhaps be aware how the Ahirs of Delhi were given backward status even though at least in Delhi they were economically far better off than Jats. The jats were ridiculed by the Congress for demanding the same benefits as were offered to other castes. Instead their lands were acquired and they were given pittance reducing them to penury. You remember, sir, Ch. Charan Singh being called names by RSS people. It is a good thing, a jat never forgets the insults, but at the same time don't forget that Congress had also branded him "kulak' and played tricks on him for the sake of return to power. He was used by this very congress. Why I mentioned Sahib Singh's contribution to bringing a college to a village is that by doing so he has tried to restore the lost pride of jats of this area. You are perhaps not aware that the original location of Shivaji college of University of Delhi, was Matiyala village in West Delhi. However, it was shifted to Raja Garden in 1960s. When some people of this area approached the then Congress MP of this area, one Nair brother of the then Union Health Minister Sushila Nair, his reaction was "yeh to jaton ka area hai woh padhke likhate to hai nahin. Shahar se logo ko padhane ke liye itani door jana padta hai". The fact is this was revenge for the incident at Bahadurgarh. So much for the congress and its love for the jats. It is not that jats love BJP either but they have no other better option to oppose the anti-jats congress. Wherever they find a platfom to oppose congress they jump on it. Lok Dal and INLD are the products of anti-jat policy of congress. The bottomline is though the BJP may not be good be good for jats, congress is definitely anti-jats.

Regards.

JAT - Just And True

[birbal]

Sehrawatji,

In agreeing with your facts here I want to reiterate that I never said I support Congress. My objection is to Jats joining BJP/RSS and that's why I brought the name of E.V. Ramaswammy Naicker. The basis of RSS/BJP ideology is the traditionl Hindu religion and it breeds subservience/reverence. Unless it is eradicated we as Jats or as India will never progress.

The point I made is that though my family background is strictly non-Congress, I am much strongly opposed to BJP/RSS. For example, the heated exchange I mentioned earlier when in 1957 or so the Jat leader Sardar Harlal Singh (the Sardar was just a title given to him by local Jats and he was not a Sardar) blasted Nehru by saying that "Congress apke baap ki zayadad nahin hai". He could do that the congress was founded on democatic principles where one can use all kind of tactics (which you and I both do not approve) but one can challenge the authority. It is not possible in ideological parties like BJP/RSS. The dramatic progress made by the Jat community in Rajasthan between 1947 and 1977 (when BJP got in power) was due to the reasonable level of democratic structure in the Congress party. There was a culture of tolerance. The reason I mention people like Harlal Singh and Chaudhary Kumbha Ram Arya is because of their feelings for the broader community. Even though I belonged to a poor but strong anti-Congress family (Kisan Sabha) just because I came first in every exam in school (before going to IIT) I heard words of encouragement from both of them. They did not care where my family was voting.

On the other hand the BJP/RSS culture is based on hatred for their opponents. As a professor my greatest pleasure comes from my students doing well irrespective of their backgrounds. Most of the people in teaching profession are like that. But, I have had teachers who were strong Jan Sangh/RSS (now BJP) and who hated me because I was Jat and best student. This is not some single anecdotal experience as I have met a large number of people with RSS background in north America and their attitude is exactly same. At the same time I want to tell you that I know many progressive Brahmins but they dislike BJP as much as I do.

The two men I identify with the BJP/RSS culture most are Bhairon Singh Sekhawat and Atal Behari Vajpayee. I take offence when a Jat shows reverence for them, and I do not try to hide it at all.

It is not important how many Jats are in a cabinet but what is important is the development of an independent thinking culture, role models for younger people to improve their self confidence and ambitions. I am not seeking any favours for Jat community but just a fair chance which can never be available under a BJP/RSS culture. What I learned from Sardar Harlal Singh and Chaudhary Kumbha Ram Arya was self confidence and straight forwardness and I feel great about it. On the other hand I describe the BJP/RSS culture as one that teches cunningness, dishonesty, superficial politeness, cowardliness, hatred for opponents etc.

[rksehrawat]

Dear Dr. Birbal Singhji,

At least one thing has become very clear from this. We are both pure blood jats. You refuge to budge from your stand and I from mine. You know, what is the most difficult job in the world ? To make two jats agree on a point on which they have disagreed once. My guru Principles Hoshiyar Singh used to say "if your conscience tells you what you are doing is right, stick to it till the last", and my conscience and experience tells me that the last five year have been the best in the post-independence India. Congress or BJP, I too even care a hoot. The only thing we must care is that whoever is in power the development of our community must go on. Anyway thanks for sharing your thoughts with us. It has been a healthy discussion. We must keep sharing view points on current issues, what if we look at them from different angles. Thanks.

JAT - Just And True

[chhoraharyanada]

Dr. Birbal Singh (May 15, 2004 02:17 p.m.):
Ramandeep,

The ideology of RSS is based on the traditional Hinduism which decides your fate on the basis of birth. The ideology is permanent so it is not important to give some recent evidence against it. I am not limiting to my own experiences. Baburao Patel (he became an MP in 60s) was bright but a poor peasant's son in Maharastra and once his father told a big Hindu leader that my son wants to become a lawyer when he grows up. The leader replied "why, have all the Brahmins dead". The mentality is permanent.

As far as Muslims are concerned I am just stating a stark fact that they have gone back to the middle ages and all they are capable of doing now is to harm themselves. The countries you named other than Israel are almost 100% Muslim and look at their state. Would you like India to be like them?

As far as Israel is concerned, it is the location that makes them target and I am sure they are capable of dealing with it. By the way, my only son, a radiologist is married and my daghter-in-law is Israeli and has part of her family still living in Israel. I have personal interest in the welfare of Israel. So, I am not trying to be sympathetic to Muslims, just bringing out the factual situation.

I am trying to relate the downfall of Islam to the potential danger to India from BJP/RSS ideology because when it comes to fundamentalism all religions have serious negative potential. The fundmentalists essentially bring down a sociey by stifling free and open debate on issues of importance.

Since I am rather old and have been out of India for a long time but kept up with the goings on not only in India but most of the world I can provide lot of evidence of dangers of fundamentalism everywhere including India.

The ideologies like BJP/RSS that include other fundamentalists like Muslims and Christian fundamentalists tend to dumb down a society. If you know something about USA you will know that the states where Christian fundamentalists are stronger are the ones with lower standards of education, income and tolerance. That is the same reason the Indian heartland where BJP is gaining influence (Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh, Chhattisgard, UP, Haryana, Bihar) is falling behind the southern part of the country.

Dear Birbal Singh Ji,

Ram Ram!

If the RSS idealogy is based heavily on traditional hindu values Re: caste, then what is your opinion of the Sikh wing of the RSS, the Rashtriya Sikh Sangat?! Surely that too can not also be based on that?

Also, are you trying to imply that Arya Samajhi's can not truly be incorporated into Sangh Parivar idealogy?

And also ... more specific to 2004:
could you tell me how jat leaders such as Kishan Singh Sangwan (BJP MP) and Rattan Lal Kataria (BJP state president) are bad news for the Jats? Without going into your experiences from the 50's/60's.

finally, you write: "If you know something about USA you will know that the states where Christian fundamentalists are stronger are the ones with lower standards of education, income and tolerance. That is the same reason the Indian heartland where BJP is gaining influence (Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh, Chhattisgard, UP, Haryana, Bihar) is falling behind the southern part of the country."

... could you please explain: (i) Punjab (BJP has 3/3 there incl. Amritsar), (ii) Gujarat and Maharashtra are 50-50 between Congress on one-side and BJP/Shiv Sena on the other. And (iii) before this election, Delhi was a 7/7 BJP stronghold. Are you trying to imply the likes of Sajjan Kumar and Jagdeesh Tytler are better leaders and people are no longer "dumber" for voting the likes of them in?

[birbal]

Dear Ramandeep,

I will try to answer all your questions to the best of my ability.

I am not familiar with the Rastriya Sikh Sangat so I can no comment on that.

As far as the Arya Samaj is concerned, Swami Dayanada formulated it to take India to genuine Vedic values as opposed to the corrupt Sanatana Dharma (the basis of RSS). I read the whole Satyartha Prakash long time ago and the Sammullas (chapter) that most fascinated me was the one which desribed several stories describing the phony practices of Hindu religion. The one I have told my children many times about the story of the death of a Jat's father and how the crooked Brahmin stole his best cow as it was needed for the father to cross the Vaitrani River on his way to the heaven on the thirteenth day. The Jat gave the cow but took it back on the fourteenth day and the Brahmin said your father will go to narak but the Jat said he will not be able to cross the vaitrani so he is safe in heaven. The point I am trying to make is that Arya Samaj was formed to take us away from the evils o hinduism which RSS/BJP represents. In my opinion Swami Dayanand was a kindlier and holier version of E.V. Ramaswammy Naicker, but I keep on repeating that we really need a Naicker. The Arya Samaj is strongly against Murti Puja. How can an Arya Samaji fight to build a temple that will have Murtis? Arya Samaj allows any one to become a pundit which is strictly prohibited in Hinduism. You may be a great supporter of BJP/RSS but let me tell you there are still temples (in 2004!) that will not allow you to enter because you are a Jat though I have never had an interest to enter a temple.

Next question.

Let me tell you that one can never be a role model for a community while serving a group that is basically based on considering that community as inferior. Even during the imes of legalized slavery there were few slaves who got considerable power but that does not mean they could do any good to their community. The negative impact I fear from BJP/RSS values is the slow degradation of the role of women which comes with any fundamentalist group irrespective of religion. Let me give personal example again.

When we came to Canada over 30 years ago there were not many Indians to socialize with and unfortunately most of them were RSS types (we did not have many educated people in our community those days). The prevalent culture was for the woman of th house to take an ordinary clerical job and there was lot of social interaction essentially forming a subculture of traditional Indian values including crude jokes about Jats/Sikhs which I totally despise. Though we came from extremely poor background but I was not going to accept my wife to have a menial job all her life so she enrolled for M.A. in political science. I remember once in a gathering lot of people laughing about that and the senior Hindu leader (and RSS activist from back home) told me one should keep one's MAHATVAAKANKSHA (ambitions) according to background (meaning what more I want as a Jat). It was not long before my wife became the seniormost Indian woman civil servant (Deputy Registrar General) and hundreds of thousands of people had the name Indira Singh stamped on their birth and Marriage certificates as a permanent record. She got lot of calls over the years from Jat Sikhs and Indian young girls as how proud they felt that one of their own reached such a high position and that Indian woman in Canada do not have to limit their ambitions to just become clerks. (By the way, in 2004, the feelings of BJP types are one of zealousy and not of happines) I know lot of Indian woman who have competence but stay down because the culture I am trying to oppose so vehementally. So, to be a role model and useful to community one does not have to be subservient to some high leader.

Regarding the final question you are putting too much emphasis just on the outcome of election. If you look carefully at the election data you find that BJP got nearly the same votes as the last time but lost purely due to our electoral system. But the general trend is that BJP is gaining influence in the Hindu heartland since their low point in 1984 when they just got 2 seats in the parliament. As their influence rises I see the region continue to fall behind the rest of India. Remember, at the time of separation in 1947 Pakistan was substantially better off than India partly because Gandhi and Nehru were too kind in nature and Pakistan got the best irrigated land. But only Jinna and Liaqat Ali were true progressive leaders in Pakistan and their quick death led Pakistan in the direction BJP will take India into. While India built IITs Pakistan built Madrasas and fifty year later you see the difference. I do not want India to be in the same state one generation latter. BJP/RSS is a curse waiting to destroy India.

[rameshlakra]

dear all
my intentions have been very clear here , i am neither in favour of congress nor BJP. what my idea for the progress of jats is like this ...

we should have jat leader who is beyong the physical boundaries of delhi , haryana, rajasthan , and western up . we need jat leader who can unite people across the state boundaries and work as formidable force at the centre . who can get statehood to western up .
who can bargain centre for the development projects .

look at the rail connectivity of these regions , there is a lot that needs to be done ?

why didnt metro project led till bahadurgarh /najabgarh ?

education standard and development projects?

only if jats can find a good leader who can unite our people and lead them in right direction , will make jats fortunate and prospereous .

thank u , regards

[sanjeevmalik]

Dear Friends,

This site/forum is mainly meant for Jat’s to share/discuss/participate in Jat related issues, but I think at this point we need to rise higher than just being a community of India.

At this point of juncture in Indian Politics, I feel ashamed that there is no Indian to lead India and the most powerful post of the PMship might be filled by a foreign-born individual. Congress and Non-congress leaders like Laloo Yadav, Manmohan Singh, Sharad Pawar, PranabMurkherji and other elite leaders who themselves for reasons have ignored the self respect and self esteem of their country and join hands for their own selfish needs of power and greed, humiliates me. I am heartbroken to see the plight of Indian Current political affairs.

I could debate endlessly for and against any political party but that is not my point here. No doubt if Sonia takes oath of PMship even for a day will only be a “win for democracy but it will be a black day for India”.

http://www.expressindia.com/election/fullestory.php?type=ei&content_id=31513&headline='As~an~Indian~it~offends~me~to~be~represe nted~by~an~Italian'

Thanks.

[anilkc]

Just a minor correction and more info:
The name is Satyanarayan Gangaram Pitroda or angrezon ke liye sam (not syam) pitroda.
and he campaigned for congress.
http://www.aicc.org.in/elec-sam-pitroda.htm

Rajendra Kumar Kalkhunde (May 14, 2004 01:07 p.m.):

2. The slogan of taking India into 21st centuray was given by Rajiv Gandhi and it was he who commissioned persons like Syam Pitroda for the telecommnication we have today. It was he who spoke of computers and it is he who initiated the modern IT boom in India. Name me one IT company in India which has pre Rajiv Gandhi history...
Rajendra

[sangwans]

Dear All

I also come from Haryana (Bhiwani) and Rajasthan (Jhunjhunu) and have long experience of encountering community harminies and conflicts. Political conclusion in favour or against can be argued for correct indexing once we dilute our affiliations with party A and party B. The situations are different in different socio-econnomic set up. Sometimes we weigh the things with a select element of our interest in focus without giving due importance to the people at large in mind. If a few persons progress under certain regime or a few aspects get boost, that is not the criteria for the progress of the whole nation. Once the things fit to us (me) we say best progress. When one two, few or few hundred or even few thouisand/few lakhs who get best of the system saying best is not the best.

I agree by a good extent with Dr. Birbal Singh. If one has been in Rajasthan, one can see the things how jats made their place in the state from the dust. Haryana can not be any judgement place as it is the Jat culture. In Haryana fights are within jats. One Jat claiming jats has no rational. In Rajasthan even if there are two Jats fighting, there is Jat significance.

In Haryana Jats lost their significance in the state (or terrtory) at their time before independence and It was Sir Chhotu Ram who made the things right for them to raise their head. It was a re-rise from downfall.

In Rajasthan, Jat made a respectful place for themselves because of their hard work, intelligence alongwith fearlessness. Jats did not have a CM their, may not even had good representation in Govt. but were with Congress and had full freedom to use their talent, fought silently with feudal philosophy etc. etc. If with non-congress govt. giving a few ministries or even a CM is does not go a sustainable way of standing for the community. A few people will get benefit and consider it enough for all.

It was the congress time that Jats progressed in that socio-economic set to the level that now they are seen with great dignity (their are pockets of other similar agrarian communities where it is quite feudal still).

Now taking a stock of the situation that it was because of the Jats that congress had been winning, others tried to harness them through casteist political groups. This way they could be successful but for themselves. Had they been voting for Non-congress since beginning, they would have been powerless (as one by one as if a few get the status of God equivalence with nothing with others is a seva-meva syndrome), they would have been the same as they were (as political significance) when they were poor minority (in significance terms). Now they are significant, it does not matter which party wins.

We know in history when Kings failed to get the task accomplished because of a some key x and y problem and then a key person represeting a sect was appeased by King to get the job accomplished for the bad of the rest of his/her community.

I know things here are in quite abstract but hope meaning could be make out. There is no point in discussing X person and Y party by name.

One thing more, we superficially take development at times. The science and technological developments that happen in particular time are not political achievements. We can not say Congress did not give us computers, mobile, fax etc. in 1947. These developments are different not relation with party. Even IT, it is technical development because IT came in focus with science stregth, India has strong educational stregth with IITs, IIMs, National Institutes, etc etc. The skilled lot available got opportunities.
It is the genesis of huge technical infrastructue developed previously.

How one would say that papers of such great instutuion (Med, IITs, IIMs, Engg etc.) entrance leaked during last few years putting a disrepute to our pride. If one reads the response/happiness of academicians/students/researchers after these elections, conclusions are obvious. Regards etc. Rajender Sangwan

Dr. Birbal Singh (May 14, 2004 10:41 a.m.):
I feel greatly disappointed by the level of discussion on various posts on this website relating to the election campaign and its outcome.

I read posts from well educated people that show total lack of fairness, decency, logic, and factual knowledge. One graduate student (a scholar by definition I assume) has concluded that Italians are scum (and as I wrote almost a year ago that those who portray other groups in a demeaning manner will face the consequence of their utterings in the future because the written record never goes away), several others have created their own definition of "Indian" (although we have a constitution and legal system), some have no hesitation in declaring others as idiots without providing any facts or logic to support their arguments.

If one looks carefully at the outcome of the election it is evident that the BJP and its allies got almost the same percentage of the votes as the previous election but the vastly different outcome is only due to our electoral system. BJP ruled the country with about 23% of the votes and this time they got about the same percentage of votes but the opposition was not as much divided as in the previous election. I will not be surprised if the Congress party is defeated in the next election but that is not the point of my post here.

I also have very strong opinions and I have been extremely active in politics all my life. But I am willing to provide logical arguments to support my position and willing to change my mind if someone has more convincing logic.

While growing up in Rajasthan I heard the equivalent words for scum and idiot used by RSS people against Jats and especially against the two Jat leaders in our area who fought hard to uplift the Jat community, Chaudhary Kumbharam Arya and Sardar Harlal Singh. I lived in the Jat Boarding in Jhunjhunu from 1955 to 1958 and because I always came first in class and I was strong in General Knowledge ( I could name all the MPs in the parliament with their affiliation) I got to talk with Sardar Harlal Singh occassionally when he stayed at the boarding. He never cared much about the opinions of these narrowminded people as he had a mission to help the community and that he did. ( I should mention that his nephew, Sanwat Singh, one of the brightest Jat young man was stabbed to death by Atal Behari Vajpayee's best friend Virendra Kumar Saklecha, who became Chief Minister of Madhya Pradesh).

As far as Sonia Gandhi is concerned, the only thing I can say that she proved her mettle by taking over the party at the bottom point and reviving it. She inherited nothing. The party was on the verge of collapse. Also, for 5 generations, from Priyanka Gandhi to Motilal Nehru. none of the individuals have done anything to harm the good name of the family. But, unfortunately, I see grandsons of a great man harming his name in Haryana.

When I look back at all the people who became Prime Minister of India I can say that with two exceptions we had people of integrity and character as Prime Ministers. The two exceptions are Morarji Desai and Atal Behari Vajpayee. I am sure whoever becomes the next prime Minister will be lot better than the current one.

I would like to challenge all Jats who have decided to support an anti-Jat party, BJP, for their self interest to provide me with some logic about the virtues of RSS, VHP, Hindutva etc. I also suggest them to read about E.V. Ramaswamy Naicker, better known as the Periyar, who freed the people of Tamilnadu from the yoke of the corrupt Hindu religion represented by the likes of RSS.

Birbal Singh

[Samarkadian]

Respected Dr Birbal...

Sadar Pranam,


Thanks for providing vaulable information regarding kumbharam n sardar Harpal Singh..Wud u like to suggest some books or article of their works(best,if online)about these stalwarts...i wud be gratified if i can have economic views of chaudhary charan singh on agriculture..

Jai Hind
Samar

[anujkumar]

Choudhary Charan Singh authored many books, among them are:
Abolition of Zamindari
Co-operative Farming X-rayed
India’s Poverty and its Solution
Peasant Proprietorship or Land to the Workers and Prevention of Division of Holdings Below a Certain Minimum

Some of these are used as text book in macro-economics.

Two of these are available in US

India's Economic Policy: Gandhian Blueprint
By Charan Singh
Hardcover / April 1978 / ISBN - 0836401662


Land Reforms in Uttar Pradesh & the Kulaks
By Charan Singh
Hardcover ISBN - 0706929691

They are quite cheap, around 10-12 dollars.

These two might also be available in University libraries.

BTW

for readers, www.fetchbook.info is a great software agent, which search for you best price among all dealers, giving all format,

softcover are genrally chep, used books etc.

[birbal]

Samar,

Anuj has given details about the books authored by Chaudhary Charan Singh. Sardar Harlal Singh and Chaudhary Kumbha Ram Arya were born in Rajasthan in an era when Jats were not allowed to go to school. However, both of them made major contribution to the abolition of jagirdari (which was abolished in 1953, 6 years after India became independent). There is a biography of Sardar Harlal Singh published through efforts of Dr. Ghasi Ram Verma (who has himself made major contribution towards the education of Jats), and I have a copy of the book. I have not come across a biography of Chaudhary Kumbha Ram Arya but it is definitely needed.

[ratananmol]

Dear Birbal Singhji and others:
i would say that the emergence of bjp and others is a sort of brahminical reemergence for power; it would take a while for young people to realize that BJP is completely anti-jat; in fact i am happy that sahib singh has lost in outer delhi; despite the support he got from jats and the bad treatment he got for being ousted as chief minister he failed to take lessons and leave them.
Finally he was left by the people.
I like some of the details you have provided.
Best,
Anmol , maryland,usa.(Graduate Student , UMCP)

[sunildabas]

Respected Birbal Singh,
I am highly impressed by ur intellectul power and totally agree with u on ur viewpoints. Being so old u still have a very democratic mindset. u have rightly pointed out the hidden agenda of bjp/rss of spreading hatred. in fact they want to spread bhramanism and hate others(muslim, jats )etc like anything but are using us. i mean they so smpathy to us(jats) only to use us. i am also impressed by the logical reasoing u have provided in explaining ur points,
and thanks for providing so many facts. If jats want to improve then they really have to be democratic and also have some tolerance power in themselves. Wishing everyone good luck on jatland.

[sunildabas]

Dear Sir(r.k.serwat),
is this work(shifting of nivedita college) is work to be proud of( i mean this is the smallest work a cabinet minister could do). he did not even make a new college just shifted venue form one place to another. what else he has done. NAme one jat whom Shaib singh verma has provided some platform to rise, like all good poltician he wants all politics to be revovled around him.
i do not think even he has even (1/10) die hard supportes as sajjan kumar(good or bad he is but got so many die hard supportes).

[rksehrawat]

Dear Shri Sunil Kumar Dabas,

It is a bitter truth that when our leaders are doing nothing but filling their own pockets, even such small deeds make them stand out. Prior to him, all MPs from outer Delhi had done nothing, except for Braham Prakash who did quite a bit for his own community, like hospital at Jaffarpur, during half a tenure during 1977-80. As regards, comparison between the two present opponents, Sajjan Kumar is an illiterate with a tainted image, hence Dr. Sahib Singh makes a better choice. As regards die hard supporters, even Daud has more and die hard supporters that doesn't make him a choice for leadership. The development works like metro and flyovers in Delhi for which Congress is taking credit now, because they could not scrap them and had to be implemented as the funds were allocated, were the brainchild of Khurana and Dr. Sahib Singh Verma. Whatever little developmental work were done in rural areas of Delhi were done when Sahib Singh was CM. He is not related to me nor do I know him, but I am of the view that he is an accompalished Jat and we should be proud of such members of our community who are self-made. What are the qualifications or achievements of Sajjan Kumar ? He got to become MP, just because he was a ..... of Sanjay Gandhi !

JAT - Justice And Truth

sunil kumar dabas (Jun 04, 2004 05:27 a.m.):
Dear Sir(r.k.serwat),
is this work(shifting of nivedita college) is work to be proud of( i mean this is the smallest work a cabinet minister could do). he did not even make a new college just shifted venue form one place to another. what else he has done. NAme one jat whom Shaib singh verma has provided some platform to rise, like all good poltician he wants all politics to be revovled around him.
i do not think even he has even (1/10) die hard supportes as sajjan kumar(good or bad he is but got so many die hard supportes).