"Harit Pradesh" - whats this all about??

[chhoraharyanada]

RAM RAM,



VERBAL DUEL BETWEEN AJIT SINGH AND MULAYAM INTENSIFIES

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/955571.cms

MEERUT: The Harit Pradesh movement has led to a verbal duel between Rashtriya Lok Dal chief Ajit Singh and Uttar Pradesh chief minister and Samajwadi Party leader Mulayam Singh Yadav.

The two coalition partners (RLD and SP) are levelling charges against each other ever since Ajit launched his latest round of drive some months ago to further intensify the movement for the separate state.

Ajit has been holding meetings in different parts of western Uttar Pradesh seeking support for Harit Pradesh comprising 22 districts of the region.

Ajit even asked people to be prepared to face bullets and lathis to achieve the goal. He has openly asked students to take lead. His public meetings in western UP have been fiery. He has blasted the state government for ignoring the people of western Uttar Pradesh.

On the other hand, Mulayam, who seemed to be soft-paddling the issue for quite some time, has now come out in open against the demand terming it detrimental in the interest of the people of the state. In his latest statement at Safai Mulayam ruled out any further bifurcation of the state.

A few days before Mulayam made this statement, SP state general-secretary and MLA Ramsharan Das had declared in the House that there was no possibility of the state government moving a resolution to the Centre recommending the bifurcation of the state.

The statement infuriated RLD members across western UP. RLD leaders organised public meetings asking people in western UP to further intensify the movement.

[vikrantsiwag]

I was present at Meerut College,Meerut at the time of speech of Ch. Ajit Singh.Actually his demand is very right as UP is still a very big state,and western UP people are not given enough concern.As all imp places are in Purab(east)side,and also western UP is the main source of income of UP,and almost all the money goes to eastern UP,so the demand of Harit pradesh is good,but i feel personally that Ajit is not the appropriate person for this work.
he is a very selfish person.

[chhoraharyanada]

Hi,

Whilst reading up, with regards to Uttranchal: UP sarkar was not sacrificing too much - just dehradun, in return for losing a %age of SC/ST voters.

I can not see any Government wanting to part with certain parts of western UP.

Noida (Delhi overspill) and Ghaziabad are big cities with very active business and industry - especially noida.

Agra is major tourist attraction.

No UP sarkar would ever give this up.

Ch. Ajit Singh is very corrupt and unfortunately not a patch on his dad. jitna mahaan insaan Ch. Charan Singh the, utna bada namoona Ch. Ajit Singh hai.

RLD is now what is known as 'secondary' party of UP - alongside Congress and JD.

Mulayam's Samajwadi Party, brahmin-bania' BJP and chamaar/dalit's BSP make up 'primary' parties.

mulayam yaa mayawati ajit singh ke paas jaayenge jab paanch-che voto ki zaroorat padegi sarkar banaane mein.

this is reality. anybody else care to agree or disagree?

[raj2rif]

Dear Mr. Ramandeep,

Very well brought out. I really don't know as to whom does Ch Ajit Singh represents in his demand about the Harit Pradesh? He has hardly any political base. Whatever votes he is getting is still because of Late Ch. Charan Singh Ji.

Secondly, why is he harping about the Harit Pradesh now? Because he is not getting the booty he expected to get while joining with Mr. Mulayam Singh Yadav. I would have admitted his concern about western UP if he had demanded the same thing while he was the minister in Narsimha Rao, VP Singh and BJP governments. What he needs is money, more money and more money. I don't think he has any concern about the people like most of the politicians.

Harit Pradesh however is not a bad idea. But if we keep going on dividing the states, as had been done in recent past, then there is no end to it. Most divisions have been sought to get more people involved in politics to become minister and thus get license to amass wealth by unfair means.

[rkumar]

a

Harit Pradesh however is not a bad idea. But if we keep going on dividing the states, as had been done in recent past, then there is no end to it. Most divisions have been sought to get more people involved in politics to become minister and thus get license to amass wealth by unfair means.

Totally agree Tavathia Sahab. While division solves some problems, it brings many more added problems like sharing river water etc..We all know what sort of inter-state fights start after division. If we go by world experience and our own in India, divison can not be the solution to all ills. We have to address the problems as they are and have to solve them the way things are. Any further division of states will bring more problems and will create local loards who will silence the local common people.

Rajendra

[chhoraharyanada]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/957910.cms

A damage control commission

LUCKNOW: Mulayam Singh extends a hand of friendship rarely these days and if he does it only implies a strong sense of urgency. To most it looked like an innocuous cabinet decision of creating a post of chairman for irrigation development and flood control on Monday. For political analysts, it was much more than that.

The post has been tailor-made, according to political observers, to pointedly fill the widening gulf between the Samajwadi Party and Ajit Singh's Rashrtiya Lok Dal (RLD). Highly placed sources said that the decision was squarely aimed to 'adjust' displaced former minister Anuradha Chaudhry - a decision which 'disoriented' her mentor Ajit Singh. Mulayam Singh's political antenna sensed the warning signals in time because Ajit Singh's hobnobbing with the Congress had increased ever since.

After adjustment of all former ministers in corporations and commissions, the post seems to have been created for Anuradha Chaudhry. A close confidant of Ajit Singh of Rashtriya Lok Dal, Chaudhry, who is an MP, is currently out of ministerial job after she resigned as state irrigation minister. Chief minister Mulayam Singh Yadav had no option but to accept her resignation, as she had stayed as minister even after permissible limit of six months. She had resigned from the membership of assembly in the wake of her election to Lok Sabha but had continued as a minister.

Possibilities were ripe that on the rebound the RLD would have understanding with the Congress to possibly get a role in the UPA government at the Centre. Something had to be done to avoid the cross-over. The new commission was created, obviously without much administrative reason. There exists a huge top-heavy setup of the irrigation department.

[chhoraharyanada]

I think basically, Ch. Ajit Singh will never become a 'big fish' in a 'big pond' (Uttar Pradesh) like his Dad was ... actually, Ch. Charan Singh at one point became the biggest fish in the ocean (Indian PM).

Such a shame.

But I dont think fragmenting UP will be such a good idea .... looking at the map, if western UP was chopped off, I think Harit Pradesh would be taking a disproportionate %age of muslims (Aligarh, Agra etc).

I dont think it would ever become the 'jat paradise' that Ch. Ajit Singh is making it out to be.

I think its just a cheap stunt and a new gimmick. Thats all.

[jkthenua]

hello,

i think its a requirement of time to have separate state for western UP. western UP and eastern UP are very different and more important UP is still a big state and if you see management in smaller states, i think you would agree for smaller state too.

whether its ch. ajit singh or any body else, demand is right and we should support this demand.

and people say, that he is corrupt but i think he utilized his position whenever got chance. only thing we can say here is that probably we did not receieved as much we thought of.

and harit pradesh is just not for Jats but probably for better treatment of areas dominated by Jats.

thanks

Jitendra

[raj2rif]

hello,

i think its a requirement of time to have separate state for western UP. western UP and eastern UP are very different and more important UP is still a big state and if you see management in smaller states, i think you would agree for smaller state too.

whether its ch. ajit singh or any body else, demand is right and we should support this demand.

and people say, that he is corrupt but i think he utilized his position whenever got chance. only thing we can say here is that probably we did not receieved as much we thought of.

and harit pradesh is just not for Jats but probably for better treatment of areas dominated by Jats.

thanks

Jitendra

Dear Mr. Jitendra,

If the question is about smaller state then what is the quantification of being small? Ch. Ajit Singh's demand would have been valid if he had put up this point when he was the minister. Leave aside this, Ch. Charan Singh himself was home minister, Dy Prime Minister and finally Prime Minister. I am sure he would have thought of this also. UP was even then a big state. That not withstanding, Ch. Ajit Singh can't remain without of power. Utilizing his position to get some thing for the community is good, but what has he done so far is utilized his position for his own betterment. Now Mr. Mulayam Singh has taken the steps to reinstate Mrs. Anuradha Chaudhary, I am sure Harit Pradesh demand will also get into cold storage.

What we are looking at is the motive. His motive of demanding Harit Pradesh does not have credibility required. Jats as a community still vote for him, because they don't have any alternative. But should they have one, may be Ch. Ajit Singh may find it difficult to be in business.

He inherited a very big and credible legacy. He misused it for his personal benefit. He may still manipulate it till the time an alternative Jat Leader comes up. Unfortunately Shri Chautala is also in the same boat as Ajit Singh is, but probably he has done a little better than Ch. Ajit Singh.

[sukhdevsingh]

WATS ALL THIS ,R U PEOPLE ACTUALLY concerned about the common man problems ,and what r you doing is abusing a good cause .because you all are living comrtable life,This is the problem with our comunity (abusing each other).I think you people dont know ground realities. now a says a major no of farmers have small peace of land. can they survive only on that. and there are really any opportunities left for young boys in western up(except to run after delhi) .Had any one think about that. the only option left for yong generation there is to join army or police(thy work hard to get these). And what you people are doing that abusing a right cause.


2 you are also abusing Mr. Ajit Singh(i dont know why) He had done a lot to improve life standard of people uf western up(Its strange that instead of appriciating him ,you a abusing) Tell me a single name in poltics who is honest.
3 I want to ask that do you know even now a days ppl borrow money from moneylanders instead of banks(as they were doing 50 years ago)
Nothing had changed.
4 And we the educated people of our community doing what? Discussing abt "DPS MMS Clipping" This is shame .
5 and do you want to know why is this ,coz we are living a comfartable life .
main to aish kar raha hoon muze kya karna hai gaon ke logo ke bare me
6 You ppl belong to such category those visit their villages to take theri part(hissa) from land , and dont want to know how people are surviving there
7 just you want to discuss abt "nuclear strenghth of india" "dps mms cliping"
8 I had joined this group around a month ago and think that this is a wonderful group helping each other n the needed people . And what are you doing "leg pulling' This is shame.
You belong to such a category that accept defeat before going to war this is not a jat spiret.
" Who got faliure only knows the meaning of success"

Letus do somthing positive and constructive for our community and netion

Thanks
Sukhdev Singh Latiyan

[rkumar]

WATS ALL THIS ,R U PEOPLE ACTUALLY concerned about the common man problems ,and what r you doing is abusing a good cause .because you all are living comrtable life,This is the problem with our comunity (abusing each other).I think you people dont know ground realities. now a says a major no of farmers have small peace of land. can they survive only on that. and there are really any opportunities left for young boys in western up(except to run after delhi) .Had any one think about that. the only option left for yong generation there is to join army or police(thy work hard to get these). And what you people are doing that abusing a right cause.


2 you are also abusing Mr. Ajit Singh(i dont know why) He had done a lot to improve life standard of people uf western up(Its strange that instead of appriciating him ,you a abusing) Tell me a single name in poltics who is honest.
3 I want to ask that do you know even now a days ppl borrow money from moneylanders instead of banks(as they were doing 50 years ago)
Nothing had changed.
4 And we the educated people of our community doing what? Discussing abt "DPS MMS Clipping" This is shame .
5 and do you want to know why is this ,coz we are living a comfartable life .
main to aish kar raha hoon muze kya karna hai gaon ke logo ke bare me
6 You ppl belong to such category those visit their villages to take theri part(hissa) from land , and dont want to know how people are surviving there
7 just you want to discuss abt "nuclear strenghth of india" "dps mms cliping"
8 I had joined this group around a month ago and think that this is a wonderful group helping each other n the needed people . And what are you doing "leg pulling' This is shame.
You belong to such a category that accept defeat before going to war this is not a jat spiret.
" Who got faliure only knows the meaning of success"

Letus do somthing positive and constructive for our community and netion

Thanks
Sukhdev Singh Latiyan

Dear Mr Latiyan,

You have made sweeping remarks almost on everyone here. Of course there are people who belong to the catagory you have described, however, majority of us are very sincere to the cause of our society. We maintain very intense relationship with our roots. Now let me come to some of the points you have raised;

1. May I ask you as to who has made all the mess, we are in today? Did we, the ones who could find our ways out, made all this mess in our villages? Hope you know how people play politics in every village, in every panchayat election and in every committee of a school or college.

2. Do you think we all here belong to the class of people who get our share of agriculture produce from our brothers in village ? If not all, most of us claim nothing and additionally we invest a very handsome amount in village to strengthen the positions of those who are left behind. Many of us have either started or about to start educational institutions etc in our villages. Those who claim shares are the one who have never grwon up mentally and are working in jobs like Delhi police or in some other small jobs..

3. Who stopped all these jat boys to study hard and become like us ? Most of us have come out of those very schools and collges where there were no chairs to sit and no buildings. When we used to study, many of our classmates used to create trouble for everyone else. Do you want to blame us for all their problems?

4. You have sensitised my emotions today and I can not stop writing something which I never wished to share with any one. My father was also a very marginal farmer and could barely afford mine and my brother's educational expenses. We saw him working hard to support us. There was no electricity in our home and we used to study in our sugarcane and wheat fileds, just to be away from village troubles. We really worked very hard and gave up every pleasure of life to make upto this point. I used to help my fellow classmates for their studies. Those who joined my group are all well settled in life. Those who treated us like poor farmers son, are all there in village..
So moral of my writing is that people become what they are by their choice and not because of someone like us who has worked very hard and honestly to reach to this point.

5. Raising fingers is the simplest thing one can do.. May I ask you now if you don't mind. What have you done to help the situation in your own village? I will become your follower once I know your contributions to your village and to the family of your brothers.

Rajendra

[raj2rif]

Dear Rajendra Ji,

You have hit the nail on head. Mr. Sukhdev Singh has also mentioned that Ch. Ajit Singh has done a lot to improve the the condition of people in Western UP. I would like to know the details of that LOT?

Probably Mr. Sukhdev Singh is not aware, that I have spent most of my life in my village. I have seen in my own village young boys used to make a joke of a boy who could not afford a nice trouser to go to school. They used to tall him "Phati pant wala". This boy used to come to me for help, and I used to enjoy teaching him. Today those who used to make a joke of him are in the village, while this boy is a senior Engineer in Delhi. He did not have the enough opportunities, but he worked hard and got what he has today. Those who laughed at him at that time, are now doing what? Telling every one that those educated are not taking care of the village. I have seen most of the educated people do help their families and any one from the village who comes to them. But even these educated people have their own limitations. What people on this forum has said about Ch. Ajit Singh's demand for Harit Pradesh. How will Harit Pradesh improve the job conditions and land holdings in villages? What will be the effect of another state on the gove exchequer and from where that money will come from? We will only have another set of politicians and bureaucrats to milk the tax payers money and hard earned money of the poor people.

I just want to know, if Harit Pradesh was such a great idea, why Mr. Ajit Singh did not raise this issue when he had been in power, and he had been in power in most governments.

[sukhdevsingh]

Hello
both of you people are reight on your points,and i feel extreemly sorry if i had hurted someone's feelings. I want to explain my view further and the questions you had pointed in the reply
1 what Mr. Ajit Singh did ?
When he was a minister , he helped to establish a no of suger mills (specilally in western up) Thus by improving the condition of farmers there.Now farmers are getting resnable price for their sugercane productions.
this is a simple example i had pointed that what he did
I am not saying that he is totally a perfect person and did everything right till now, I also did not like his ideas to changing parties etc, But what i want to say that letus see what positive he had done(may be it is less).
Thus we can appriciate him for his positiveness
2 i also want to raise a question in this fouram , that we the educated people of our community can do somthing for our society.....cant we have a leader among us ,as we r educated n experienced?
3 for this we can have a small starting and letus growup......


About the second point that what i did for my community and do i know certain magics to help ,improve condition of the people......
Yes i want to help people, my age is 24 years . And what i can say till now and currently i m bussy in making my career ( You can say i m helping only myself and not doing anything for others in need)
So from my side i can only help the young boys to advice them about their career and the information i had. I am always ready to do this.
I am searching job since past few months and working hard to get a job(I had done MCA). all this i am doing honestly and i had financial support from my family.I am not asking anyone to give me a job here , what i need only the guidence.
I want to thanks the member of this fouram who are helping me and giving useful advices.
" i defenitly want to do somthing for the people in need, this wish is in my heart and i will do it with my all abilities.
I think you will understand and guide me for this cause.

3 One more point had been raised in response to my post " do i know some magic to help others" No i dont know. What i know is that we can help and do what we can according to our capabilities. We can motivate others to do this." Doing small things will make a big thing"

Today after reading this what i had done for others, I am thinking about this, and dont know the answer? Till now you can say i had done for myself....I worked hard throughout my studies only for me?.............I think myself a selfis person?....
But i know one thing by helping myself i will be able to do somthing for others. I am confident about this .yes i will do whenever and whatever i can do.

I feel sorry for Mr Rajendra Kumar kalkhande ji,My intention was not to hurt you.I also belong to a similar family background and a lot of people belongs the same.
And i dont want to hide this from anyone. This was an opportunity given by god to us ,
I also want to congrats you that you had utilze this opportunity not only for you but for others also.
This is what i can say
I am still in learning process and says what my heart feels.

Thanks
sukhdev singh

[rkumar]

Dear Sukhdev,

Yes you are right as far as Sugar mills are concerned. However, he could have done much more for himself and the area, had he played his cards well.

Rajendra

[raj2rif]

Dear Mr. Sukhdev Singh,

Firstly, the discussion is here on Mr. Ajit Singh's demand for Harit Pradesh, whether or not it is justified. All of us have different opinion on this issue and that is a good sign.

Now regarding helping people in our villages. Firstly, you are only 24 and the fact that you are doing yourself well in your studies, you are helping people to follow you as a role model. Helping is not only by money, it is by inspiration, guidance and little contribution here and there. First you need to get settled yourself and then you will be able to make a lot of contribution to your village folks.

Ch. Charan Singh was the one who first showed the way and got the right price of Sugercane to the farmers when he was the CM of UP, way back in 1969. Getting a few sugercane mills opened in the sugercane belt is not a big achievement. This thing probably would have happened as part of the normal development process. I am not sure if those mills were opened by the initiative taken by Ch. Ajit Singh or he just got the credit for that. Opening the suger mills is a state governments responsibility and I had not seen any time Ajit Singh having any say in State Govt functioning, specially when Mayawati or Mulayam Singh were in power. Even with BJP, I don't think he had more influence on BJP leadership then Mr. Sompal Shastri.

Any way if he did get some suger mills opened then, it is good, for he has been representing the area for over two decades now.

[sphougat]

I haven't read all articles in this chain, but smaller states are good for rapid development. I support Harit Pradesh. When Haryana became state it was having only seven districts. A smaller state provides easy access to administration for development. I think peacefully step by step it would be nice to have a Harit Pradesh.

[chhoraharyanada]

To Mr Sukhdev Singh and all other supporters of 'Harit Pradesh',

http://mapsofindia.com/maps/uttarpradesh/uttar-pradesh-district.htm

Here is a district map of UP.

Please give me (and others) a rough idea of what districts would become part of this Harit Pradesh.


Other points I would like to add on this issue:

1. Looking at the map, I'm inclined to think that places like Aligarh would become part of Harit Pradesh. I dont know if any of you have heard of the concept of 'Trojan Horse'. Here in the UK, people are debating whether or not Turkey should join the European Union - because if it did, it would become the first muslim state in Europe and who knows? could in the future create problems.

Similarly, Harit Pradesh would have too high a %age of muslims - perhaps they might become the main beneficiaries of a new carved out state and not the Jats as we are being led to believe.

Also, in UP, the finer higher education institutions are in places like Lucknow,Kanpur etc.

In Harit Pradesh - would Aligarh Muslim University (AMU) become the top college??? Do we really want a "Jat state" where Jats are going to end up second to muslims???

2. On Ch. Ajit Singh - he is a poor practitioner of his father's legacy. His father built up a political empire with Baghpat as the base. "AJGaR" (Ahirs/Yadavs-Jaats-Gujjars&Rajputs) was his winning combo. Ch. Ajit has failed in all departments especially in unifying kissan - even such lows as suffering defeats to people like Sompal!

Thats embarrassing! Like Kenya beating India in the cricket.

I agree with Col Sahab - that if another half decent Jat candidate was promoted in w.UP from either Samajwadi Party or even BJP(!), Ch. Ajit Singh would be in trouble.

Ram Ram.

[sphougat]

How many Jat District do we have in western UP (Harit Pradesh). I think if we have 10 Jat districts, then it would be enough to make Harit Pradesh. Why are you asking 18 or so?

[raj2rif]

Dear All,

It is a misconception that Aligarh has more Muslim population. Actually, traditionally, except Aligarh City, which is predominently muslim, Aligarh District does not have majority of Muslim Population.

Now the main point of Harit Pradesh. Do we want a Harit Pradesh of Jat Pradesh? I thought the purpose of asking for Harit Pradesh was to have a smaller states as many members have tried to justify.

If we are discussing purely on the demography of these districts, then we will find more muslims in, Saharanpur, Muzaffurnagar, Meerut and Moradabad districts than Aligarh itself. Regarding major educational institutions. I don't know if Roorkee is in Uttaranchal or UP as of today. If it is still in UP then it would be part of Harit Pradesh. If we have a vision, will and purpose, I am sure we can always create better institution in the so called Harit Pradesh. AMU is one of the very good institution purely because it has funds available to buy best equipment available, but then it discriminates between Muslims and others. We should be asking our secular parties to stop this practice in this or for that matter any other institutions. Purely for the point of ruling or dominating a particular state we as a community neither stand a chance nor we should try for it. Unless we want a state comprising of only Bharatpur, Mathura and probably Agra and Dholpur districts. How much have we ruled the Haryana state per say. Even if Ch. Bansilal was ruling, he was part of Congress and not part of any so called Jat Party as we have started to believe. And what have we achieved extra when our so called Jat leaders have ruled the state.

The fact is Ch. Ajit Singh's demand is based on keeping his personal political agenda in mind and not the community as such. We probably may be better of as a community to remain away from opportunist leaders. He has never been a stable member of his own parties, what do you think will he be a stable member of community. His interest in the community has always been only to garner vote bank Ch. Charan Singh created for him.

I have said in my earlier posts that why did he not demand the Harit Pradesh when he was in power. He remembers the community only when he is out of power. To me Ch. Ajit Singh does not hold any credibility even though his intentions in asking for Harit Pradesh may be genuine.

By the way, I was there in India during last February and March and attended one of Ch. Ajit Singh's meeting at Aligarh itself. What I learnt there was a shock for me. One of the local Jat Leader wanted his party's ticket to contest Aligarh seat, Ch. Ajit Singh I was told had demanded Rs. one Crore to give his party's ticket to a Jat Candidate. Go to Aligarh and you will find the truth.

[jkthenua]

hello everybody,

today when we discuss any thing about UP, we always talk about western, central and eastern UP. even if you consider the functioning of most of the organisation in UP they also follow the division either 2 or 3 major division.

I personally don't have any thing to say about Ajit Singh. but i just want to say that we should support harit pradesh.

I think, it is not a direct issue whether muslims or jats will be beneficiary of this state. i think it should some how help everybody in that part of state.
I am from Iglas tehsil of Aligarh district and I just want to mention here that It is having around 70% jat population. so you just can not say that Aligarh is Muslim dominated District.

I would like to appreciate the comments from Rajendra ji.
and just like to tell, that i am in process of making my career and i extended my support to my village people when ever they need. I definately like to intiate a school in my village, as it is dream of my father who use to go 10 kms on foot during his schooling.

aur teotiaji (ur from my mother's side),
we tried to be role model in our village, especially my younger brother, who secured higest mark in science 99/100 in 10th std. in UP Board, then 13rd rank in 12th Std. and now serving in ISRO as scientist after completing MTech. I have seen that enthu towards good education increased a lot in my relatives and village people.

thanks for encouraging such efforts in this forum.










To Mr Sukhdev Singh and all other supporters of 'Harit Pradesh',

http://mapsofindia.com/maps/uttarpradesh/uttar-pradesh-district.htm

Here is a district map of UP.

Please give me (and others) a rough idea of what districts would become part of this Harit Pradesh.


Other points I would like to add on this issue:

1. Looking at the map, I'm inclined to think that places like Aligarh would become part of Harit Pradesh. I dont know if any of you have heard of the concept of 'Trojan Horse'. Here in the UK, people are debating whether or not Turkey should join the European Union - because if it did, it would become the first muslim state in Europe and who knows? could in the future create problems.

Similarly, Harit Pradesh would have too high a %age of muslims - perhaps they might become the main beneficiaries of a new carved out state and not the Jats as we are being led to believe.

Also, in UP, the finer higher education institutions are in places like Lucknow,Kanpur etc.

In Harit Pradesh - would Aligarh Muslim University (AMU) become the top college??? Do we really want a "Jat state" where Jats are going to end up second to muslims???

2. On Ch. Ajit Singh - he is a poor practitioner of his father's legacy. His father built up a political empire with Baghpat as the base. "AJGaR" (Ahirs/Yadavs-Jaats-Gujjars&Rajputs) was his winning combo. Ch. Ajit has failed in all departments especially in unifying kissan - even such lows as suffering defeats to people like Sompal!

Thats embarrassing! Like Kenya beating India in the cricket.

I agree with Col Sahab - that if another half decent Jat candidate was promoted in w.UP from either Samajwadi Party or even BJP(!), Ch. Ajit Singh would be in trouble.

Ram Ram.

[rkumar]

I don't think size has anything to do with development. There are advantages and disvantages in both, small and large sizes. Experience so far has been that if divisions have solved few problems, they have created equally complex problems. If size alone were the criteria, NE states would have been the most developed ones in India. In my view, any further division of larger states should be deferred till there is clear decision on;

1. Sharing of river water
2. Sharing of other common resources like power plants
3. Resources for establishing new capital city and other infrastructure

We should not be carried away by slogans of self seeking politicians. In my view mindless divisions bring more troubles than they address..Remember, countries are uniting to form economic blocks..We need to take lessons from them and see how larger states can have beetr say in running India..

Rajendra

[itsnavin]

Yes, I support it! and why not?
It's not division of country or any thing like that but a division for development.
In the past I've seen in Western UP and seeing it today as well that the whole hierarchy in most of the Govt. office belong to Eastern UP. All Mishras, Yadavs, Mathurs etc. There is least place for the guys from western UP. Ab koi maaney ya na maaney, actual situation is worse than what I m telling.
They(Eastern UP) get jobs in western part, take bribes(for which UP is famous for), earn money but they don't do any development in the western UP. Moreover, this is true for politicians as well. Take any CM, Mulayam ji ko hee le lo...Most of the money comes from Western UP(Land revenues and bribes etc.) and gets invested in the Eastern UP areas. This is unjust!!

I think the days are over for Mathurs and Mishras...Western UP will see Harit Pradesh people working there. A boon for Jats. They will get the opportunity to get the administrative jobs as well. Atleast, the bribe u give to a guy in Ghaziabad or Meerut, it will stay in Harit Pradesh only. ;-)
But I really mean it. We'll have to fight for it and atleast I am ready for it. See Uttaranchal people, finally they have won! And WE WILL TOO!
And I don't care about the personality of Ch. Ajit Singh, so long as he's focussed on Harit Pradesh. I fully support his movement and all should! He needs this support.

Cheers

[rkumar]

Yes, I support it! and why not?
It's not division of country or any thing like that but a division for development.
In the past I've seen in Western UP and seeing it today as well that the whole hierarchy in most of the Govt. office belong to Eastern UP. All Mishras, Yadavs, Mathurs etc. There is least place for the guys from western UP. Ab koi maaney ya na maaney, actual situation is worse than what I m telling.
They(Eastern UP) get jobs in western part, take bribes(for which UP is famous for), earn money but they don't do any development in the western UP. Moreover, this is true for politicians as well. Take any CM, Mulayam ji ko hee le lo...Most of the money comes from Western UP(Land revenues and bribes etc.) and gets invested in the Eastern UP areas. This is unjust!!

I think the days are over for Mathurs and Mishras...Western UP will see Harit Pradesh people working there. A boon for Jats. They will get the opportunity to get the administrative jobs as well. Atleast, the bribe u give to a guy in Ghaziabad or Meerut, it will stay in Harit Pradesh only. ;-)
But I really mean it. We'll have to fight for it and atleast I am ready for it. See Uttaranchal people, finally they have won! And WE WILL TOO!
And I don't care about the personality of Ch. Ajit Singh, so long as he's focussed on Harit Pradesh. I fully support his movement and all should! He needs this support.

Cheers

Even now most of the investment is in Western UP. Take combined investment in NOIDA and Gaziabad, it will outstrip entire UP. Every beurocrate of UP invests his money in a house in NOIDA or Gaziabad. Kanpur is a dead city for a very long time, leave aside the IIT there. Western UP has more engineering and other colleges than Eastern..Just count all the colleges in NOIDA and Gaziabad, one will know the figures. Film city is in Gaziabad..New Airport project is in NOIDA area.. So let us put our facts and figures correctly before we raise the demand..

Rajendra

[chhoraharyanada]

Even now most of the investment is in Western UP. Take combined investment in NOIDA and Gaziabad, it will outstrip entire UP. Every beurocrate of UP invests his money in a house in NOIDA or Gaziabad. Kanpur is a dead city for a very long time, leave aside the IIT there. Western UP has more engineering and other colleges than Eastern..Just count all the colleges in NOIDA and Gaziabad, one will know the figures. Film city is in Gaziabad..New Airport project is in NOIDA area.. So let us put our facts and figures correctly before we raise the demand..

Rajendra

Yes! My point exactly!

And lets not forget Agra (revenue from tourism).

Uttranchal was a different ballgame ... UP sarkar was happy to part with DehraDun, because they were also losing a very large no. of tribals/STs.

This is not the case this time round.

I doubt any UP sarkar will want to part with western UP.

Ch. Ajit Singh will be bought off.

Ram Ram.

[sphougat]

Ok dear, there are lots of unemployed people. Students can' t see any future. If we will make smaller state, then there would be lots of jobs in the Govt. and other sectors. There would be new Capital. New secretariat, new ministries. Lots of staff to be hired. people will get jobs and they will serve the state. Keep aside Ajit Singh. This is a genuine demand. I am totally disagree with Dr. Rajendra Kumar Kalkhande. No body is caring about people.


I would request all students and unemployed people fight for your right.

.................................................. .........................


I did a little survey on the map of U.P. It has seventy districts. There should be at least three states out of U.P. Then you will see how fast it will develop. Secondly why did you allow Uttaranchal. You see how much time it takes to reach Lucknow. You can reach your national capital quickly rather to reach your provincial capital. How many days and money it takes to spend on a single visit. This is total stupidity and no body cares about that. Suppose you made Harit Pradesh its Capital should be Bulandshahar. It is almost centre of the projected Harit Pradesh and near to national capital too. Some time you have to go provincial capital to national capital through proper channel. I think it should be the best idea. But I don't know how much big city is Bulandshahar. Is there any threat of flood or water in the soil good for drinking and can we make high rise buildings there? We have to see so many things. Please all brothers from U.P provide some information, is this city would be suitable for capital for harit pradesh? I have tried to find some 24 Districts for this state. they are as follows:

Shaharanpur, Muzaffarnagar, Bijnor, Meerut, Baghpat, Ghaziabad, Bulandshahar, Jyotiba Phule Nagar, Moradabad, Rampur, Aligarh, Budaun, Bareilly, Pilibhit, Mathura, Gautam Budh Nagar, Hathras, Etah, Agra, Firozabad, Mainpuri, Etawah, Shahjahanpur, Farrukhabad

The second state can be made Purav Pradesh. The capital of Purv Pradesh should be Jaunpur. And the central part should be left as Uttar Pradesh as Capital Lucknow. Then you will see development.

[rkumar]

I did a little survey on the map of U.P. It has seventy districts. There should be at least three states out of U.P. Then you will see how fast it will develop. Secondly why did you allow Uttaranchal. You see how much time it takes to reach Lucknow. You can reach your national capital quickly rather to reach your provincial capital. How many days and money it takes to spend on a single visit. This is total stupidity and no body cares about that. Suppose you made Harit Pradesh its Capital should be Bulandshahar. It is almost centre of the projected Harit Pradesh and near to national capital too. Some time you have to go provincial capital to national capital through proper channel. I think it should be the best idea. But I don't know how much big city is Bulandshahar. Is there any threat of flood or water in the soil good for drinking and can we make high rise buildings there? We have to see so many things. Please all brothers from U.P provide some information, is this city would be suitable for capital for harit pradesh? I have tried to find some 24 Districts for this state. they are as follows:

Shaharanpur, Muzaffarnagar, Bijnor, Meerut, Baghpat, Ghaziabad, Bulandshahar, Jyotiba Phule Nagar, Moradabad, Rampur, Aligarh, Budaun, Bareilly, Pilibhit, Mathura, Gautam Budh Nagar, Hathras, Etah, Agra, Firozabad, Mainpuri, Etawah, Shahjahanpur, Farrukhabad

The second state can be made Purav Pradesh. The capital of Purv Pradesh should be Jaunpur. And the central part should be left as Uttar Pradesh as Capital Lucknow. Then you will see development.

Dear Mr. phougat,

If I take your logic, Sardar Patel should have never got those princely states merged in India and must have allowed them to remain separate states under the Indian constitution. I am sure as per your logic India would have been much more developed by this time..No wonder the people of NOrth East and Kashmir are fighting for independence as they also think that thay will becaome superpowers. They are forgetting that Mynamar and Nepal next door remain as backward as they were centuaries back. Divisions bring more disputes in todays world than they solve. Any further reorganisation of States should be done only when there is a very clear law about sharing of water and all other resources. Look at how Haryana and Punjab have been fighting over sutlaj water..

Rajendra

[chhoraharyanada]

I did a little survey on the map of U.P. It has seventy districts. There should be at least three states out of U.P.... I have tried to find some 24 Districts for this state. they are as follows:

Shaharanpur, Muzaffarnagar, Bijnor, Meerut, Baghpat, Ghaziabad, Bulandshahar, Jyotiba Phule Nagar, Moradabad, Rampur, Aligarh, Budaun, Bareilly, Pilibhit, Mathura, Gautam Budh Nagar, Hathras, Etah, Agra, Firozabad, Mainpuri, Etawah, Shahjahanpur, Farrukhabad



This state seems too big.

The idea of "Harit Pradesh" is basically a sugar-coated way of saying we want a state carved out of UP where Jats will become more active and bigger players in all walks of life - social,economic and political.

I was under the impression that Harit will have about 5-7 districts east of delhi, which include places like Baghpat with Meerut as the base/capital.

That would "ideally" do the trick.

But ...

The states you've listed will totally defeat the principle.

eg - Etah, Mathura, Etawah, Kannauj, Mainpuri are all densely populated Ahir/yadav areas.

The Yadav-Rajput combo of Mulayam Singh Yadav/Amar Singh will araam-se cake-walk it in Harit Pradesh also. It would serve their purpose because:
i. Eastern UP, or Purav Pradesh as you've called it has more brahmin land-owners and thaakurs etc. They'd lose all these non-SP voting people.
ii. Samajwadi Party has a monopoly on muslim votes, and it is likely to stay constant in Harit Pradesh.

Ch. Ajit Singh will again be secondary 'sidey' character.

I think this is something that we shall have to swallow with a bitter taste. Just 1 generation ago, Jats were top dogs of UP. The "J" was the shining and significant component of "AJGaR". Now, in the space of 20-odd years, we are seeing it slump into a chasm of mediocrity. We have seen Ch. Ajit Singh defeated by the likes of Sompal on his home turf, we are seeing him do business with the likes of Mayawati (another corrupt caste-leader).

Mulayam Singh is a better "people's politician" than Ch. Ajit Singh. The events of Mandal commission, reservations, Babri mosque demolition etc have shown him to reach out to people outside his own community (Yadavs), whilst Ch. Ajit Singh is/was happy to rest on his laurels in the base made for him by his Dad. Whilst neither can be compared to the great man himself, Ch. Ajit Singh is a distant third to Mulayam's distant second.

This is my view.

Regards,

Ram Ram.

[raj2rif]

Dear Ramandeep,

Your analysis is very good except the political inclination of Eastern UP. If you see the Ch. Charan Singh era, he always got more MLA's from Eastern UP. Believe or not, we are not in the winning combination alone in the 5-7 districts you have mentioned. Mathura, Aligarh and Agra have more density of Jat Population than Meerut and Ghaziabad per say. Even Muzaffurnagar may fall in the similar category. It is not only the Jat population's density it is also the aspiration of many Jats to contest elections that has spoiled the show over the years.

It was only after Mandal Commission, that the uppercastes broke away from Congress and went in mass with BJP. Otherwise the Brahmins and Thakurs Votes in Eastern UP were always divided. What Ch. Charan Singh was able to address was the farmer community, irrespective of their caste. While many brahmin and thakur farmers did not vote for him, majority of Ahirs in Eastern UP voted for him. There are other castes who traditionally vote against Thakurs like Kurmi's in the areas of Kannauj and Farrukhabad, who voted for Ch. Charan Singh. Ch. Ajit Singh just could not carry forward the legacy his father left for him.

Mulayam Singh was very close to Ch. Charan Singh and he probably learnt more from him than his own son, and that is why he is more successful. The biggest mistake Ch. Ajit Singh did in his political career is contesting against Mulayam Singh Yadav unsuccessfully for the CM's post during VP Singh's time.

The concept of Smaller states purely to become bigger player as a community is neither good for community nor for the nation. In a democratic set up unless we can learn the art of carrying every one with us, we can just forget the idea of playing a bigger role. Purely on Jat votes you can't win the elections and gain power.

You have to have the organization and the personality to attract the common man from every community to play a bigger role. The Kisan Union took off very well, but probably Mr. Tikait could not digest the success. In that he was supported by all farmers in the area, and not only Jats and that is why it became a force to recon with at that time.

[sphougat]

Dear Mr. phougat,

If I take your logic, Sardar Patel should have never got those princely states merged in India and must have allowed them to remain separate states under the Indian constitution. I am sure as per your logic India would have been much more developed by this time..No wonder the people of NOrth East and Kashmir are fighting for independence as they also think that thay will becaome superpowers. They are forgetting that Mynamar and Nepal next door remain as backward as they were centuaries back. Divisions bring more disputes in todays world than they solve. Any further reorganisation of States should be done only when there is a very clear law about sharing of water and all other resources. Look at how Haryana and Punjab have been fighting over sutlaj water..

Rajendra

There were more than 500 princely ruled states. They did right at that point of time. Dear Dr. Rajendra which theory do you and your statesman want to apply for development. Every political leader is boasting they will become fully developed nation by 2020. The reality is they are not doing anything, even the criminal are ruling in some states. You can not treat person like lalu who is openely distributing 100 bills to public. What are talking man. One side Chandraswami, a tantrik giving killing advice to people. What are you talking man. Listen there was a minister Lahri Singh I don't know it was Punjab at that point of time or Haryana. There were farheri (docaits) were hiding in the haryana fields. There was a big problem for haryana farmers to go in the fields and plough their fields. Lahri Singh called DGP (Director general of Police) and ordered him make a list of all criminals in the state. He further ordered I want to see all criminals dead within three months. DGP accepted his words and they clean the province within three months. Do you think any society, any society need criminals. No then who will treat them tell me. One billion people can not handle some crooks what are you talking man.

Tell me one thing, I don't know if any chief minister in UP completed 5 years term. if not why? You are talking about Haryana. We Haryanavis are thousand time better than Punjabis. We separated late from Punjab. How will you make fully developed India tell me. I will not mind to take your suggestions if they are viable. But, I don't think within India anybody is working on any good project to make India fully developed. Yes of course everybody is saying they will become, but how they will become, they don't know

[itsnavin]

Even now most of the investment is in Western UP. Take combined investment in NOIDA and Gaziabad, it will outstrip entire UP. Every beurocrate of UP invests his money in a house in NOIDA or Gaziabad. Kanpur is a dead city for a very long time, leave aside the IIT there. Western UP has more engineering and other colleges than Eastern..Just count all the colleges in NOIDA and Gaziabad, one will know the figures. Film city is in Gaziabad..New Airport project is in NOIDA area.. So let us put our facts and figures correctly before we raise the demand..

Rajendra
Rajender ji
u know it very well..NOIDA and Ghaziabad alone don't cover whole of Harit Pradesh. The development should reflect in other parts of the state as well. u r right that Noida and Ghaziabad are progressing. But as far as their development is concerned, it's due to the reason that they fall in NCR region. There are more funds for them. Did u visit Hapur or Bulandshahar? Any developments there? NO! nothing at all. Ghaziabad is the maximum revenue earning distt. in UP(from land revenues, taxes, industrial taxes, sugar mills etc etc) as it's bordering Delhi. i think that there is no reason that it should be underdeveloped than Faridabad atleast. But it is not. You know the reasons..right? I wish to see the same development levels in these areas as well. And the relatively same level of development should be there in other distt. of Harit Pradesh.

It's a well known issue when Mulayam Singh didn't leave any stone unturned for his efforts to abolish the new distt. of Gautam Budh Nagar. It was finally the court order that prevailed. But if that Yadav had been successful, NOIDA and its plans would have been dead before they could be initiated. Also NOIDA would become breeding place for criminals like Ghaziabad.

Next issue can be criminals, UP being a big state and CMs are from eastern parts. They don't pay any heed to criminal activities happening in the western UP areas like Ghaziabad, Muzz. Nagar, Meerut. If we can have a smaller state, police control could be better. They can tighten the noose around criminals. I think so!!

Navin

[abhishek]

It is as simple as that : if separation of Haryana from Punjab was justified in 60`s then demand of Harit Pradesh is as just as it gets.

[raj2rif]

Dear All,

I think we are loosing the sight of the discussion. I remember during the first innings of Mr. Kalyan Singh as CM in UP, all criminals from UP vanished. The reason, he had given full authorities to the local police officers. I remember travelling from Delhi to Bulandshahar late in the evening, and wanted to buy some sweets as I was going to some ones place. The bus at about 7:30 stopped at one of the Dhabas between Bulandshahar and Sikandrabad. There were some sweets available there. Some one was buying sweets from there, I told him why can't he buy at Bulandshahar as to me those sweets did not look very good. He replied, "Sir, Yeh Kalyan Singh ka Raj Hai, 8:00 PM market will close except Pan shops and medical stores. By the time bus reaches there you will find no other shop open. Truely, it was the case.

The point to stress here is that to enforce the law size of the state really does not matter. Because the local government remains the same, unless you are going to change the sizes of districts, tehsils and finally the villages if I go on extreme. It is the clear cut directions of the leader that matters. If you remember, that year Kalyan Singh made copying in exam congnizable offense with no bail provision. The UP board result slumped to 14% for 10th and 11% for 12th. He also made teachers accountable to students results and discouraged them to call students for private tuitions. I am sure it must have hurted the student and teachers community alike, but it was good for the nation and community at large. Sh. Mulayam Singh in next election campaign clearly put in his party's manifesto that he will allow copying in board exams and did announce it as first thing on his victory.

The point here is the purpose of Harit Pradesh? If it is development and if small states be the answer by all means we should do it. But if the purpose is for Ajit Singh to become CM and Jat community thinks that they will be the leader, then I don't think so that will be the case. On first instance Ch. Ajit Singh will dump the community for his personal gains. Jats alone can't rule a single state and so is any other community. In politics, leadership is most important and the leader has to be accepted by more than one community and not by any single community. So long Ch. Charan Singh was farmers leader he was successful. Wheneve we made him a Jat leader (which we all tried to do) we harmed his political career.

The points I have tried to bring out here is that, smaller state will give more opportunities to criminals to do the crime in one state and migrate to another to avoid the arrests. This is the reasone the Chambal valley is so famous for the crime. The reason is not the difficult terrain alone, but the boundry of three states in the area. UP, MP and Rajasthan.

No crime rate has come down by making Noida a separate district. It is not the size of the state or district that matters, it is the will of leader or rular that matters.

[rkumar]

There were more than 500 princely ruled states. They did right at that point of time. Dear Dr. Rajendra which theory do you and your statesman want to apply for development. Every political leader is boasting they will become fully developed nation by 2020. The reality is they are not doing anything, even the criminal are ruling in some states. You can not treat person like lalu who is openely distributing 100 bills to public. What are talking man. One side Chandraswami, a tantrik giving killing advice to people. What are you talking man. Listen there was a minister Lahri Singh I don't know it was Punjab at that point of time or Haryana. There were farheri (docaits) were hiding in the haryana fields. There was a big problem for haryana farmers to go in the fields and plough their fields. Lahri Singh called DGP (Director general of Police) and ordered him make a list of all criminals in the state. He further ordered I want to see all criminals dead within three months. DGP accepted his words and they clean the province within three months. Do you think any society, any society need criminals. No then who will treat them tell me. One billion people can not handle some crooks what are you talking man.

Tell me one thing, I don't know if any chief minister in UP completed 5 years term. if not why? You are talking about Haryana. We Haryanavis are thousand time better than Punjabis. We separated late from Punjab. How will you make fully developed India tell me. I will not mind to take your suggestions if they are viable. But, I don't think within India anybody is working on any good project to make India fully developed. Yes of course everybody is saying they will become, but how they will become, they don't know

We all know that there are things wrong with country. Division alone is not the answer. What I am trying to say is that any divisions without addressing all the related issues can be more dangerous. Let there be a complete reorganisation of states at the country level and just not these local level reorganisations based upon political reasons. Let Govt of India appoint a New commission which should work out all the details of this reorganisation. Let there be a report and then this report be made public. Let there be debates on that report. In my my view that should be the way to do it and not the way this has been done so far...Let the whole nation be part of this reorganisation process. Divisions carried out in hurry to please few bring more troubles than they address..

Rajendra

[sphougat]

Bhai reorganisation of the country in papers is a good idea. Language is the main factor to make different states. You can see almost all the states formed on the basis of language. In my opinion, whatever states are ok let them as it is and then take one by one. Reorganisation is a very extra ordinary project and that will take many years to decide and many years to implement. It may or may not be successful.

The second thing is part of western U.P. can be merged with State of Delhi or State of Haryana. Again still U. P. need one more divison. It is very complicated problem. Well it is up to you guys what ever you like do it. God bless you.

[raj2rif]

The organization of states on the basis of language probably was not the best idea. But then that is the past and we really can't change it. Why it was done on the basis of language, I have no answer to that. Probably low level of literecy may have been the main reason. If the division was not done on the basis of language then probably we would have Hindi as an accepted National language by now in the entire country and people would have had less divisive attitude. Culture of different region and way of life of different community may have been another reason. But in a union of different states, we need to have one language accpeted by all as the national language.

Reorganization of the states may be a tall order and may give opportunity to many people to lead the country to social fight and may be civil war. We as it is have so many organiztions undermining the authority of government.

Division of any state may not bring the desired results if the will is not there to improve. And if the will is there then the size of any state/district I think rarely is an obstacle. With means of communications available now, I am sure the bigger states can be managed more easily then in past. Yes division of UP will silence the people who are blaming the governments for undevelopment/underdevelopment of their areas on interest.

[sphougat]

Ok, I am asking only one question. Why any Chief Minister in U.P. can not complete his full 5 year term. Bhai Colonel you are well settled. But just think about those students and qualified people who are without job. Due to sex ratio in the society, even no body is giving them their daughter. In any society this is my own research more female, less crime. More males, lots of crime. Anyway, we need smaller districts, small tehsils, blocks and smaller states. You can have viable states. But who will make it, leaders. They don't want to do that. First of all, I can't see a leader who can manage all that stuff. Some time I feel Mrs. Indira Gandhi, whenever she decided to remove any chief minister, she did within a short period. Constitutional Machinery failed in so and so state, Governor rule imposed. Anyway as on today everybody trying to discharge their duties as this is their burden. Nobody have interest for development.

[chhoraharyanada]

Ok, I am asking only one question. Why any Chief Minister in U.P. can not complete his full 5 year term.

Suresh bhai,

Samajhne ki khoshish karo.

Uttar Pradesh is v.v.unique indeed. There is no other state like it in all of India. Especially, when you consider the demographic make up of it - whether it be religious, caste-based or regional based.

Agar sochoge tho - Haryana is not even close, nor MP, nor Rajasthan and certainly not any southie state.

Also, UP is host to the nation (and almost int'l) political hotbed that is the Ram Mandhir-Babri Masjid issue.

And for that reason, UP is different to all other states.

And frankly speaking, I think out of all leaders Mulayam is best placed out of all of them to complete 5 years & be successful in the post Babri period.

My views,

Regards,

RAM RAM.

[raj2rif]

Ok, I am asking only one question. Why any Chief Minister in U.P. can not complete his full 5 year term. Bhai Colonel you are well settled. But just think about those students and qualified people who are without job. Due to sex ratio in the society, even no body is giving them their daughter. In any society this is my own research more female, less crime. More males, lots of crime. Anyway, we need smaller districts, small tehsils, blocks and smaller states. You can have viable states. But who will make it, leaders. They don't want to do that. First of all, I can't see a leader who can manage all that stuff. Some time I feel Mrs. Indira Gandhi, whenever she decided to remove any chief minister, she did within a short period. Constitutional Machinery failed in so and so state, Governor rule imposed. Anyway as on today everybody trying to discharge their duties as this is their burden. Nobody have interest for development.

Dear Suresh Ji,

Division of state will not guarantee the full five year term for any CM in smaller state. Why a particular CM has not been able to complete a full five year term is because no party has been able to get the absolute majority and representatives of the people are salable for their personal interests. No single party has a political agenda which is appealable to the entire electoral college/ Voters. Under such circumstances it is more important to expose the weaknesses of these political leaders and try and find out viable alternative rather than divide the state and give all of them share of booty for complete five year term.

I have said in my earlier posts as well, that to become a viable political option and ensure stability, the leader has to come out with larger than the caste and and regional issues. He has to gain the confidence of the entire section of the voters across the party lines. Unfortunately the credibility of political leaders is so bad, and the money is playing such in important role that it is extremely difficult for any new leader to come up.

A movement like "Bhartiya Kisan Union" did come up but lost its cutting edge due to the power play with in the organization. They could not sustain the success they got. We need a very large hearted organization at the top, who can carry rich and poor, Jats and non Jats, weaks and strongs together through this difficult phase.

Again if you feel that the smaller states will create additional jobs, while that may be true, but for whom? The common man is unlikely to benefit from that. The jobs will still go to the relatives and supporters of these so called leaders and there will only be more of them. Such kind of poeple in any case get the job even now.

I understand the frustration of the youth and that is what is being exploited by these leaders for their personal gains.

[sphougat]

Bhai public bahut badi chij hai. Jis din lath tha liya na, leader/seader lukte haande gai. Aur mujhe aisa lag raha hai, jab ki Ek bhai ne kah bi diya hai, ke laathi, goli face karne ke liye tayar raho.

[raj2rif]

Dear Suresh Phougat Ji,

I personally do not believe in Lathi, and Goli business. That is not the best way to solve any problem. And if we feel that is the best way then why did we fight those lathi goli in Punjab and why are we fighting the same thing in Kashmir, Nagaland, Asaam, Manipur and Mizoram?

I don't think we should encourage this kind of a solution. There are many people to instigate the youth and watch the fun. I would not like to be party to such things where the leaders sacrifice the youth to get their political ambition fullfilled. If you really want to raise Lathi and Goli, then raise it against Corruption, I think that is the need of the hour.

[sphougat]

Dear Colonel,


I have no interest in all these things. My interest is only development. I have nothing to do with any political party or any particular leader or person. I am just trying to explain whatever feedback getting through newspapers. In decision making theory whatever feedback you will get, you will decide as per lead theory, gain theory and lag theory. I think I am just trying to help the society and trying to help that possibly this kind of thing can happen. It is good if we can make advance decision as per gain theory. Sometimes we take timely decision that is per lead theory and sometime we make pending decision, so that time will automatically solve the problem. This is known as lag theory. I don't want to go in any kind of controversy.

[raj2rif]

Dear Phougat Ji,

All I am trying to convey is that there are enough poeple to instigate youth to take to violence. I personally feel that as an educated society we should not instigate, encourage or support violence. We could do better by other means of negotiations. The most important being convincing people and the authorities alike with justification of our cause. I am sure like you non of us want to get involved with any controversy.

Your explanation of various theories is really good. Frankly, I had no idea of this subject. It is a learning for me. I may have practices it in my life but did not know about it.

[varuntomar]

my reply to this thread comes rather late but i could not help posting.....

what will lead to better development bigger states or smaller states? well it is debatable.....

what lies at the heart of the demand for Harit Pradesh is a demand for a separate Jat state. it is immaterial who demands it.....ajit singh has to raise the demand because this is the demand of his people.....neways he does too little and too late......he is not the same person his father was but there isn't any good alternative either.......atleast he will serve his purpose best till somebody really comitted to the cause of the people takes over from him if and when he retires.......and people of chhaprauli dont vote for him....they vote for Chaudhary Saab and his legacy.......

charisma of a leader and his committment towards development are very important issues but what's the use of the charisma when u have to spend ur entire life sitting in the opposition benches......Chaudhary Charan Singh had a huge following but he was chief minister of UP only twice that too for a period of about ten months on both the occassions.....his term as the PM was shortlived too.......

compare this with the no. of brahmin CMs UP has had and surprisingly none of them was from western UP.......western UP has always remained a poor cousin as far as implementation of government policies is concerned despite the fact it is the single largest contributor to the state treasury in UP.....

UP is a vast state and badly needs reorganisation different leaders have their fiefdoms in different regions that almost lead to a situation where the possibility of a stable government is bleak......

if we just look at the pace of development on the haryana side of NCR and UP side of NCR we will probably get an idea what kind of a difference a stable govt. can have.......

all my life i never saw a proper road from delhi to my village (which incidentally lies on delhi-saharanpur road)....whatever existed was badly damaged and it was awfully bad in baraut.....but when anuradha chaudhary was made PWD minister (her portfolio was PWD if my memory serves me right)
we got many new roads in the region.......and it benefits me and others like me who can reach home in less time and the ride is less bumpy.....she is not a charismatic leader but being a minister helped in working for the betterment of her electorate.......

so the question is how will people of western UP benefit from the creation of a new state......the answer is simple they will have more participation in the governance and probably siting on the treasury benches might bring some change than sitting on the side of the opposition benches.....

the Jat factor in the state cannot be ruled out they will either head the govt. or will have a prominent say.....

demand for creation of Harit Pradesh is justified as was of Haryana in the 60s

[itsnavin]

what lies at the heart of the demand for Harit Pradesh is a demand for a separate Jat state. it is immaterial who demands it.....ajit singh has to raise the demand because this is the demand of his people.....
Varun
I think u've taken it wrong here...u know..Harit Pradesh, if formed, will have a Muslim majority...but I don't mind this as well. Smaller states can be better managed. Infact UP is too big to handle for the govts like these...
Anyway, it'll take years of demands, protests, sacrifices etc etc to get it done...and to max. it depends on Central govt. to support this view...
let's see what goes on...

[varuntomar]

as long as there will be rural constituencies Jats will remain the primary force in western UP or the proposed Harit Pradesh.......accept it or not votes cast in rural areas are not truly representative of all communities.........

now i hope the members dont come after me for publicly stating the much known but less talked about fact in the Jat belt.......

[vivek]

Leaving aside all political equations, it seems a smaller state would help in governance. There are tremendous inefficiencies and bottleneck in current system, that not only impede growth but discourage future business ventures. The duplication of services would be minor, and are needed in any case to make the blood flow through the administrative arteries without any clots.

There are obvious advantages to people in West UP, especially the jats who make up minuscule of voting population for the entire stateand are thus ignored. Same may say that Harit Pradesh is a political gimmick, but it is an idea that makes tremendous sense if you are a jat from West UP.