Who are the keepers of the records ?

[raj_rathee]

Ravi posted the article on Prithviraj that had information from Sarv
Khap Panch. records. That raised my curiosity as to where these records
are kept, and how are they maintained ? Who creates new records, if at all ?

Also, the history of villages (marriages, births, other events) used to be maintained
by Pandes (not sure if that is the right spelling or evern the right word...basically
these were Pandit types who kept the books as part of their livlihood). They
often had fairly detailed record of family trees along with such stuff as who gave
what (Ch XYZ gave 10 tola sona on birth of blah blah and so on...probably
very exaggerated stuff...since the Pandes were at the receiving end.)
Are these still maintained by anyone (probably not since such records are
probably kept in the govt. departments and so on) ?

And what happened to the records that did exist ? Are they still the exclusive
property of the Pandes ? There was a lot of useful information stored
there. Village history. Who founded the village, where they came from and son on.
For instance my village was founded by someone who had travelled from Rajasthan.

[ndahiya]

Hi

An idea occurred to me me reading Raj's post...

Is it possible for us to begin creating a repository of information on Jatland ? Obviously it will need to be decentralized (where anyone can add/edit info)... But that will cause issues with accuracy... I believe Jatland.com can add meaningful value to the process... If only we can figure a techincal way out...

Also some though on what parts to start with ? One thing that comes to mind is the Gotra's section. Now it has to be manually entered/edited by one of the mods... the pandas/bhats have a lot of info on family trees/origins etc that can be entered...

Regards
Nitin


ps: I do not mean to move the discussion off-topic from the original post by Raj. Plz send me a PM if you think that is more appropriate.

[raj_rathee]

Nitin,

Maintaining as much information as possible in a central repository is
definitely highly desirable. I think the technicalities of doing so can be worked
out.

I don't know about the gotras part. As it stands I think it is a list of all
Jat gotras. So maintaining that in its present form is probably not a big deal.

The bigger issue initially would be to how to get the information in the first place.
For instance, the Panda/Bhat records, as far as I am aware (and thats code for
"don't have a clue"), are exclusive property of these traditional recordkeepers.
So getting this information would be hard as it is. I suppose they are very protective
of it...it used to be their goldmine. Secondly, I suppose deciphering those
hand written records (Sanskrit ? Hindi ?) would be the next hurdle.

After that, putting all that together intelligently into a cohesive, well-organised
knowledge base that can be readily accessed to provide useful, searchable
information would perhaps seem like a full time historian's delight, but
maybe not the average Jatlander's cup of tea.

So the key is getting the information. The rest comes later.

[Of course, you were probably mentioning this in a generic sense rather than
specifically for the information in the Bhat records.]

...and now I need to rush out...couldn't complete my train of thought....

[lrburdak]

Hi Nitin,
The gotra can be the easiest source of history. In the gotra section we can provide link to each gotra which contains detailed info about it. Make it editable so that any body having any info about a gotra can add to it.

regards,



Hi


An idea occurred to me me reading Raj's post...

Is it possible for us to begin creating a repository of information on Jatland ? Obviously it will need to be decentralized (where anyone can add/edit info)... But that will cause issues with accuracy... I believe Jatland.com can add meaningful value to the process... If only we can figure a techincal way out...

Also some though on what parts to start with ? One thing that comes to mind is the Gotra's section. Now it has to be manually entered/edited by one of the mods... the pandas/bhats have a lot of info on family trees/origins etc that can be entered...

Regards
Nitin


ps: I do not mean to move the discussion off-topic from the original post by Raj. Plz send me a PM if you think that is more appropriate.

[raj_rathee]

I think that is one way of doing this. Each gotra can be a hyperlink
which leads to maybe a hyperlink for villages which leads to village
specific information that may have got from bhat records and so on.

I am not sure if the best way to deal with this is by allowing anyone to
edit this. Its probably best if some specific individaals take care of updates.

Hi Nitin,
The gotra can be the easiest source of history. In the gotra section we can provide link to each gotra which contains detailed info about it. Make it editable so that any body having any info about a gotra can add to it.

regards,

[ravichaudhary]

The Sarv Khap records or what remains of them are with the family of Chaudhry Kabul Singh, who now live n Budhana, Distt Muzzafarnagar, U.P. Village Shoron is about 6 km away..

They maintain them, as best as they can. Much material has been lost.

When the Khap had some power, i.e funding, the records were maintained by Bhats and Mirasi-s, who worked for the Sarv Khap.

What is needed, is digitalization of the material into Hindi, and translation into English, of the records and the various books that are available.

Nihal Singh’s book is out of print, and can do with a republishing and a translation.

We will need translators, typists, and funds.

The others ideas are good too, I hope they are implemented soon.

Some thought may also be given to avoid putting out negative stories only about the Jats, especially on the home pages of Jat sites e, g Ghazni’s imaginary naval expedition to punish the Jats or that the Jats did not cooperate with the Maharattas because the Maharattas would not let the Jats loot Delhi.

I am finding that the more and more I dig into these negative stories, they turn out to be pretty baseless.

Bests regards

[raj_rathee]

Thanks Ravi !
It is quite surprising that such records are not being taken care of !

I would have thought that as far as the Sarv Khap records are concerned, they
would have been preserved. At the very least, since people have used them
for reference (eg Nihal Singh's book) one would think that these would have been
copied, translated and preserved already. Certainly if historians have gone
through them that must be the case.

At least organisations like the All India Jat Mahasabha should be taking such issues
up and playing a role in preserving our history. Influential politicians should
play a role too.

Anyways, if this has not happened, let us try to do something about it. What would
you think is the scope of such records ? (No. of pages ?) How much work
would be involved in getting these translated/copied etc. How far do these
go back ?

What would you think would be the financial undertaking necessary here ? I'll
pitch in for a portion of that.

BTW: Is the sarv khap panc. still an active entity ? Does it still meet 5 times
a year as it used to in the past ?

What about smaller level panchayats ? Do these keep records as well ? What
about individual village panchayats ? Given what we know about the
village panchayats, it would be hard to imagine them keeping any real
records of meetings and so on.

Regarding the Bhat/Pandas I guess no one seems to have much information
on them. I wonder if these were in every village or one per
a few villages or......

Somewhere I read that these were at a few places such as Haridwar/Varansi ?
That just doesn't seem to ring true. My only experience with such a person was
when a local person (from my own village maybe...not sure) came to my house
and wanted to update his records. So my assumption here is that these
folks are locally based.

As far as I am aware these are the only source of written information that
people can use to trace back their roots.


The Sarv Khap records or what remains of them are with the family of Chaudhry Kabul Singh, who now live n Budhana, Distt Muzzafarnagar, U.P. Village Shoron is about 6 km away..

They maintain them, as best as they can. Much material has been lost.

When the Khap had some power, i.e funding, the records were maintained by Bhats and Mirasi-s, who worked for the Sarv Khap.

What is needed, is digitalization of the material into Hindi, and translation into English, of the records and the various books that are available.

Nihal Singh’s book is out of print, and can do with a republishing and a translation.

We will need translators, typists, and funds.

The others ideas are good too, I hope they are implemented soon.

Some thought may also be given to avoid putting out negative stories only about the Jats, especially on the home pages of Jat sites e, g Ghazni’s imaginary naval expedition to punish the Jats or that the Jats did not cooperate with the Maharattas because the Maharattas would not let the Jats loot Delhi.

I am finding that the more and more I dig into these negative stories, they turn out to be pretty baseless.

Bests regards

[vsinghchaudhry]

I am stilla student but i am willing to make a monetary contribution within my limits for this cause..All our brave forefathers sacrifised soo much and preserving thier legacy is the least we can do..
Thanks Ravi !
It is quite surprising that such records are not being taken care of !

I would have thought that as far as the Sarv Khap records are concerned, they
would have been preserved. At the very least, since people have used them
for reference (eg Nihal Singh's book) one would think that these would have been
copied, translated and preserved already. Certainly if historians have gone
through them that must be the case.

At least organisations like the All India Jat Mahasabha should be taking such issues
up and playing a role in preserving our history. Influential politicians should
play a role too.

Anyways, if this has not happened, let us try to do something about it. What would
you think is the scope of such records ? (No. of pages ?) How much work
would be involved in getting these translated/copied etc. How far do these
go back ?

What would you think would be the financial undertaking necessary here ? I'll
pitch in for a portion of that.

BTW: Is the sarv khap panc. still an active entity ? Does it still meet 5 times
a year as it used to in the past ?

What about smaller level panchayats ? Do these keep records as well ? What
about individual village panchayats ? Given what we know about the
village panchayats, it would be hard to imagine them keeping any real
records of meetings and so on.

Regarding the Bhat/Pandas I guess no one seems to have much information
on them. I wonder if these were in every village or one per
a few villages or......

Somewhere I read that these were at a few places such as Haridwar/Varansi ?
That just doesn't seem to ring true. My only experience with such a person was
when a local person (from my own village maybe...not sure) came to my house
and wanted to update his records. So my assumption here is that these
folks are locally based.

As far as I am aware these are the only source of written information that
people can use to trace back their roots.

[stokas]

One of the ‘Bhaat’ I know is Rakesh Kaushik – who is young in age. He is doing a great work in managing and updating these records.
I can’t say - which specific Gotra or Jat Community records he have; but it’s for sure that he is doing a great job. He is very enthusiastic – related to Jat’s History – and very keen to spread this knowledge. What a scientist is for a laboratory – he is for Jat records (these are my observations; after meeting him several times).
Some 2-3 years back, he came to me and told about his plans to publish a book on ‘Tokas’ gotra. WOW! What a great idea it was!! When asked about some financial help – I provided what I can; and assured for some more, when the book is out.
After a few days, he showed me the ‘DTP work’ also, which was very fine.
He was too concerned about the financial crunch he was facing – as not many of our villagers were giving ‘this’ help to him but very eager to have the ‘chaudhraahat’ with their photos and personal details printed in the ‘Book’. But, after that I never heard from him and the ‘Book’ never published!!
I conclude two things here:
1. He is a scholar in Jat records.
2. This person needs monetary back up and could be of a great help to our Jat community.

One more record-keeper I know is in some village, near Gadganga, UP. He keeps the death-records.

Both these persons could lead us to some more great sources.

It’s time to wake-up and act now. Rakesh could be a great source in preserving, translating and many more things (can’t configure as unto what depth – only he can tell this) – discussed in previous posts. Only the thing is financial back up.
Some sort of funds could be created for this great work. These types of people are like a ‘Gold-mine’ for us. I am always ready to do the needful.


His address:
Rakesh Kaushik
Chintpurni Colony, No. 800
Near GVM Girls College
Gate No. 2
Sonepat (Haryana)
Phone: 236742


Thanks to Raj for this great thread.

[raj_rathee]

Hi Shailendra:

Thanks a lot for bringing this up !
I am from Sonepat and my parents live in Sonepat. Its quite possible that
this person was the one who visited me many years back at our home. Don't
know but could be him.

I have to be honest with you. I tend to be a bit cynical of these people. Their
main focus tends to be how much money they can get out of us. Perhaps I am
mistaken. I don't know. I guess they need to make a livlihood one way or the
other.

I'll see if I can get my dad interested in paying him a visit, to see what he is all
about. Infact I have never talked about this stuff to my dad. Funny, because
our elders are the ones that are most likely to be able to provide such
background info.

My primary interest would be to get a copy of the records. I would not like
the idea of making payments to him and have no control over what he really
has to offer.

When that Bhaat came to my house I was only a teenager and I was alone
at home. His main focus was to get some money out of me on the pretext of
wanting to update our family records. He went on to read details from his
"book" that would lead me to believe that my ancestors were neck deep
in Gold and other riches. "Falana dada gave itna tolas and a horse on birth
of...". Basically on those lines.

Ha ha. Funny ! As far as I am aware there is not one drop of aristocracy in
my lineage (papa's side or ma's side). Not even one hair thin line linking
me to the descendents of some Surya devta ! Not even a great great great
grandfather who might have fought in some army. Nope. Not one shred.
As far as I can tell we are one 100% pure bred line of haalis. The "khao, peeo,
dand maro" types. "Kab angrej aaye kab chale gayee, kya maloom" types.
The only thing that can link me to aristocracy is that I had a childhood pet
dog named "Raja" when I used to live in the village. And like true aristocratic
intrigue, he was found poisened under mysterious circumstances. Ji haan,
that is the only link I have been able to dig up thus far.

But the Bhaat's fancy details would lead me to believe I was the descendent of
some mighty people. Ha !

Anyways, I'll provide an update if I learn something from my father.




One of the ‘Bhaat’ I know is Rakesh Kaushik – who is young in age. He is doing a great work in managing and updating these records.
I can’t say - which specific Gotra or Jat Community records he have; but it’s for sure that he is doing a great job. He is very enthusiastic – related to Jat’s History – and very keen to spread this knowledge. What a scientist is for a laboratory – he is for Jat records (these are my observations; after meeting him several times).
Some 2-3 years back, he came to me and told about his plans to publish a book on ‘Tokas’ gotra. WOW! What a great idea it was!! When asked about some financial help – I provided what I can; and assured for some more, when the book is out.
After a few days, he showed me the ‘DTP work’ also, which was very fine.
He was too concerned about the financial crunch he was facing – as not many of our villagers were giving ‘this’ help to him but very eager to have the ‘chaudhraahat’ with their photos and personal details printed in the ‘Book’. But, after that I never heard from him and the ‘Book’ never published!!
I conclude two things here:
1. He is a scholar in Jat records.
2. This person needs monetary back up and could be of a great help to our Jat community.

One more record-keeper I know is in some village, near Gadganga, UP. He keeps the death-records.

Both these persons could lead us to some more great sources.

It’s time to wake-up and act now. Rakesh could be a great source in preserving, translating and many more things (can’t configure as unto what depth – only he can tell this) – discussed in previous posts. Only the thing is financial back up.
Some sort of funds could be created for this great work. These types of people are like a ‘Gold-mine’ for us. I am always ready to do the needful.


His address:
Rakesh Kaushik
Chintpurni Colony, No. 800
Near GVM Girls College
Gate No. 2
Sonepat (Haryana)
Phone: 236742


Thanks to Raj for this great thread.

[raj_rathee]

Actually Shailendra, this is a very telling statement !
Money writes history ! Isn't it so true. Every one wants to get "Chaudhar".
And those with the money get it ! You keep the "historians" happy and they'll
oblige you !

One wonders how much of history is really a record of commercial transactions.
Thats the way its been and thats the way it'll continue to be.



He was too concerned about the financial crunch he was facing – as not many of our villagers were giving ‘this’ help to him but very eager to have the ‘chaudhraahat’ with their photos and personal details printed in the ‘Book’. But, after that I never heard from him and the ‘Book’ never published!!

[minhassukhdev]

If anay body have a historical knowledge(origen of minhas gotra) of minhas gotra pl give full information on web jatland.com

[kumarjee]

Thanks Ravi !
It is quite surprising that such records are not being taken care of !

I would have thought that as far as the Sarv Khap records are concerned, they
would have been preserved. At the very least, since people have used them
for reference (eg Nihal Singh's book) one would think that these would have been
copied, translated and preserved already. Certainly if historians have gone
through them that must be the case.

At least organisations like the All India Jat Mahasabha should be taking such issues
up and playing a role in preserving our history. Influential politicians should
play a role too.

Anyways, if this has not happened, let us try to do something about it. What would
you think is the scope of such records ? (No. of pages ?) How much work
would be involved in getting these translated/copied etc. How far do these
go back ?

What would you think would be the financial undertaking necessary here ? I'll
pitch in for a portion of that.

BTW: Is the sarv khap panc. still an active entity ? Does it still meet 5 times
a year as it used to in the past ?

What about smaller level panchayats ? Do these keep records as well ? What
about individual village panchayats ? Given what we know about the
village panchayats, it would be hard to imagine them keeping any real
records of meetings and so on.

Regarding the Bhat/Pandas I guess no one seems to have much information
on them. I wonder if these were in every village or one per
a few villages or......

Somewhere I read that these were at a few places such as Haridwar/Varansi ?
That just doesn't seem to ring true. My only experience with such a person was
when a local person (from my own village maybe...not sure) came to my house

and wanted to update his records. So my assumption here is that these
folks are locally based.

As far as I am aware these are the only source of written information that
people can use to trace back their roots.

Ravi

I hink I had written earlier that I will pitch in funds and some editing/publishing assistance.
Please get in touch with me.
Kumarjee

[kumarjee]

Ravi

I had indicated to you that I am willing to pitchin fund and other needed assistane in thsi respect.

Kumarjee

[danarambeerda]

Hi Nitin,
The gotra can be the easiest source of history. In the gotra section we can provide link to each gotra which contains detailed info about it. Make it editable so that any body having any info about a gotra can add to it.

regards,


Sh. Laxman ji Ram Ram sa,

i agree with you, it's the easiest way to provide more source of histry by gotra, like i am beerda by gotra and if i know any thing about beerda gotra, i will just go to gotra section and add the material there for others. i am sure that all of us know a little bit about our own gotra and if there is any kind of confusion we can discuss too.

with best regards

[danarambeerda]

GOTRA'S HISTORY BY BADUA

At our place in rajasthan we have "BADUA" some people call them bhatt or some may call by diferrent names but these BADUA has all kind of historycal material about jat gotra's, our gotra's badua has a record written on the tree's leaves and peels, so you can imagine how old the records they keep and therefore i believe that they can provide lot of material for jat history if any one is interested to collect the jat history which is scattered at many places.

If any one wants to know more about these "BADUA'S" please contact to me.

with best reagrds.

[priti]

I think i can get in touch with a Bhat too. last time i was in india, i was questioning my father about our history and he said the bhat knows the origins of our village and stuff. My elder brother keeps a copy of our family tree (which was obtained from the bhat). Also, my father mentioned that our bhat lives yamunapaar. This time i will make an effort to locate him and see what info i can get from him. Will keep you all posted.

[ndahiya]

Sorry for the delay on my part...

Laxman ji: I explored the possibility of allowing ppl to edit the page directly, but it is a cumbersome technological implementation in the current setup. I have tried to set something up on this over the last couple of months. What we need to install is a "wiki" but its kind of tough to integrate with the rest of the site.

Ravi ji: I was in Delhi in last month and tried to explore accessing the record, but couldn't make progress. If it is only a matter of money, it can be taken care of. I suspect the bigger prob might be getting people to do it.

[lrburdak]

Thanks Nitin, for the efforts. We can keep this feature in mind and apply when changing set up of the site in future. There is one site wikipedia.org using this feature of editing by any body. It is working very well over there.
Regards,

[ndahiya]

Thanks Nitin, for the efforts. We can keep this feature in mind and apply when changing set up of the site in future. There is one site wikipedia.org using this feature of editing by any body. It is working very well over there.
Regards,

yes sir.. we can install the software, that is not the problem... but i was hoping we could integrate it with the member area (and it has to be done right in the beginning)... still exploring this...

[sanjay22dahiya]

Hi all


Its a good idea to have records within JATLAND domain so that everyone can easily access any information easily.I don't know about other villages but the entire Birth & death records of our village is safely kept with many pandits in gadganga.My grandfather have a copy of all these records,he still maintains it very well.

I'm interested to know the meaning & origin of words llike "JAT" & especially "DAHIYA".If anyone knows any information or any e-link plz let me know.


Thanks shailenderji,MR kaushik may give me some valuable information.

Sanjay dahiya

[narenderkharb]

What is the progress on jat historical records of sarv khap panchayat.

Do any one have another copy of letters by jata rajpal,or if ravi ji got it kindly put it on net if possible.

This script can give some important clues as it has been observed in other ancient records also.

I am ready to contribute for fund required to maintain or reproduce these valuable records.

kindly suggest the name of person or oragnaisation where we can send our contribution.