Jats : Aryan or Scythian ?

[satbir_grewal]

Bhai,

this aryan and scythian business is very confusing. on one hand history opines that jats are scythians and on the other, arya samajis say we are aryans. who is right ? is the arya samaj presenting a convoluted form of history to justify it's existence among jats ? has the arya samaj twisted jat history to it's convenience ? we jats have fallen prey to outlandish theories and have forgotten our ancestry. is it too late ?

[chhoraharyanada]

Satbir Grewal (Sep 17, 2004 11:40 a.m.):
Bhai,

this aryan and scythian business is very confusing. on one hand history opines that jats are scythians and on the other, arya samajis say we are aryans. who is right ? is the arya samaj presenting a convoluted form of history to justify it's existence among jats ? has the arya samaj twisted jat history to it's convenience ? we jats have fallen prey to outlandish theories and have forgotten our ancestry. is it too late ?

Ram Ram!!

Hi,

With regard to the Arya Samajhis ... do they refer to Jats as Aryans in the sense Aryan=Noble (literal), OR, Jat as a foreign race (Aryan)??

Please clarify.


Regards,

[satbir_grewal]

Ramandeep ji,

I'm not too sure what "arya" means but conventional / mainstream history sees it as a foreign race that invaded India about 2,500 years back. Now once we start convincing ourselves that we're Aryans, we've automatically disregarded our lineage which is supposed to be Scythian. The Scythians were supposed to be a nomadic, barbarous, volatile and fearsome race dwelling along the northern shores of the Black Sea. There is a Russian republic called Ossetia which prides in the fact that it's inhabitants are direct descendants of the Scythian tribes that defeated Darius the Great, a mighty emperoro of Persia. The Scythian have been described as tall, garceful looking people who had blade like noses.

So, in whatever sense the term "aryan" is used, it certainly is not referring to Jats because then it makes us the blood brothers of Punjabi khatris (the trading class) who claim direct descent from the Aryans. Considering the fact that these khatris are quite fair looking and have, in some cases light eyes, the idea that they are Aryans may not be too far fetched whether we like it or not. So, I guess it's time we jats came clean on this one and took pride in our Scythian forefathers.

[ravichaudhary]

Dear Satbir

Why do you say the 'Sycthians' were barbaric ?


Ravi

[satbir_grewal]

Ravi ji,

I say that because history says so. The Scythians followed, what would seem to us today, very gruesome rituals. If two enemies wanted to mend fences, they would kill a mutual enemy and then drink his blood mixed with wine in his skull. Now, who wouldn't call that barbaric. Another custom was self-mutilation when people would slash themselves with knives to prove their loyalty and steadfastness to their ruler. They did this even when the ruler died. As a matter of fact, Ravi ji, most medieval civilizations were barbaric and the Scythians were no exception. The German Teutonic tribes were far worse than the Scythians but that didn't stop Germany from becoming a global powerhouse, economically and militarily. The Scythians were living in their own times and did what all humans of that age did in varying degrees. Nothing much to it, really. You might remember how lethal a Jat Sikh driven militancy in Punjab was. They were ruthless alright but they were very effective and it took another Jat Sikh, KPS Gill, to reign them in. It was just a small reminder to everybody as to how bad things can be when a Jat goes berserk. It almost brought the Indian government to it's knees. KPS Gill had said that we should thank God that the Sikh militants do not have a terrain like Kashmir to operate in. So ruthlessness is an integral part of Jat nature and it is put to good use when the time comes and we shouldn't be embarrased about it.

Regards.

[ravichaudhary]

Barbarian was a greco roman ternm for foreigner

something like the Indic 'Mleccha'- foreigner, barbaric

The rest, blood drinking etc could well be Herodutus's imagination running wild.

Do you have another source for this except the Greeks?

If you look closer I suspect you may find they were quite civilized, had huge agricultural complexes, irrigation canals, cities.

Try and look at the Indo- Bactria complex, North West of Afghanistan, the Tarim Basin, for starters.

That would suggest they had an advanced civilization, which would lead one to appreciate that their works of philosophy, literature and science, were quite advanced.

It also fits in as to why 60 clans,and over 10 rishis in the Rig Veda ( 3000 CE to 2000 BCE) are Jat.

Let us recognize and pay homage to their civilization,- bravery in war, does not mean drinking blood or getting drunk.

One must take Herodutus, circa 3000 BCE with some salt.

[satbir_grewal]

Ravi ji,

Speaking of history, here you go - (this might throw some light on our ancestors) they were not the noblest of people, I guess. Not that I'm not proud of my forefathers. Each race has it's history and the best part is you can't change it much. Denial is not the answer.

"What sort of men are these!?" That question must have perplexed the Persian leader Darius when, in the midst of battle, he watched his Scythian enemies abandon the serious business of war in order to take off suddenly in chase of a hare they had spied. Well the same query persists in the minds of modern civilized men as scholarship adds to what we know about this strange custom of Eurasia's mounted nomad. New research and thousands of examined burial sites in the last 20 years in South Russia and the Altai have helped us to paint a much fuller picture of this vigorous nomad people with their unique animal art and love of the horse - an extraordinary race from whom the civilized world learned to wear trousers and riding horses.
Land of Myth and Gold
Perhaps the most striking feature of Scythians was the enormous amount of gold they wore and used. The ancient legend tells the story about the one-eyed people, Arimaspians in Scythia who had on-going battle with the griffins who guarded the gold. This gold undoubtedly came from the rich fields in the Altai district. It is common that the Scythians wore golden ornaments and belts. Gold plates were sewn to their garments and gold gleamed from their weapons. The archaeologists are consistently amazed by the amount of gold offerings deposited in the great burial- mounds of the Scythian kings.

Where had they come from? The Scythians themselves had a legend that they sprang from the three sons of certain Targitaus, a person of supernatural birth who dwelled in the Black Sea domain. Together the three brothers ruled the land until four golden implements - a plow, a yoke, a battle-ax and a drinking cup - fell from the sky and suddenly began to blaze. Colaxais, the youngest, proved to be the only one of the brothers who could pick up the burning objects, and thus became sole ruler of the Scythian kingdom.

Another Scythian creation story was told by the ancient Diodorus Siculus at the 1st century B.C. According to Diodorus, Scythians "lived in very small numbers at the Araks River....that they gained for themselves a country in the mountains up to the Caucasus, in the lowland on the coast of the Ocean (Caspian Sea) and the Meot Lake (Azov Sea) and other territories up to the Tanais River (Don River). Born in that land from the conjugal union of Zeus and a snake-legged goddess was a son Scyth who gave the name Scythian to the people." His descendants were named Pal and Naps and were the ancestors of two congenetic people - pals and naps. "They won for themselves a country "behind the Tanais River up to the Egyptian Nile River" (Diodorus II, 43).



History
Dating the earliest Scythians has been a problem since they did not develop their distinctive art style until the 6th century B.C. A. I. Melyukova suggested that the early Scythians were descendants of tribes of the Srubnaya culture who, between the middle of the 2nd millenium B.C. and the end of the 7th century B.C., moved in several waves from the Volga-Ural steppes into the north Black Sea area and assimilated the local Cimmerians. In history, the Scythians was first recorded in the 7th century B.C. as Assyria's ally against the Cimmerians, who had lost their homeland to the Scythians and moved south. The Scythian king, Partatua married an Assyrian princess in 674 B.C. and two nations remained allies. Scythians and Assyrians together conquered the Medes of the Caspian Sea; however the Medes was able to drive the Scythians out of western Asia and back to the Pontic Steppes by the turn of the century.

In 514 BC. a very important event took place in the steppe. Herodotus described this account in full details. Darius, the third of the Persian great Kings, decided to invade Scythia. With Darius himself in command, the Persian army of 700,000 soldiers marched across the Danube to the Russian steppes. The Scythians steadily retreated while the Persians pursuit. Darius failed the attempt to force the Scythians to confront the Persians with head-on battle. The Scythians did not abandon their tactic of withdrawal and replied to Darius when he demanded an battle action:


There is nothing new or strange in what we do. We follow our mode of life in peaceful times. We have neither towns nor cultivated lands in these parts which might induce us, through fear of their being ravaged, to be in any hurry to fight you. But if you must needs come to blows with us speedily, look about you, and behold our fathers' tombs. Attempt to meddle with them and you shall see whether or not we will fight with you."
It was indeed very strange war to Darius. There was nothing to be captured and held - no citied, no buildings, no plunder, nothing but the rimless steppe. He was fighting air. Darius had no alternative but to turn back. All the way to the Danube the Scythians harassed his retreat. He never campaigned northward through Europe again and the Scythians prevailed on the south Russian steppe and kept expanding westward for the next century.

From the end of the 7th century to the 3rd century BC, the Scythians occupied the steppe from the north Black Sea area, from the Don in the east to the Danube in the west. Among all those Scythians tribes, the most distinguishing tribe is called the Royal Scythians. With the Royal Scythians playing the dominant role, nomad Scythians, the Callipidae, the Alizones, agricultural Scythians and ploughing Scythians hold a submissive position. While the Royal and Nomad scythians led the nomadic lives, the Callipidae and Alizones lived in semi-nomadic style. Of course ploughing Scythians definitely were sedentary agriculturalists. According to Herodotus, the Callipidae or the Graeco-Scythians lived not far from Olbia, at the mouth of the Bug. To the north, there lived the Alizones; and further north the ploughing Scythians covered the area between the Dnieper and Bug. The Nomad Scythians occupied the steppes of the Azov Sea area and the left and right banks of the Dnieper. Most scholars believe that both banks of the lower Bug as far as the River Konka were the lands of the Nomad Scythians while the Royal Scythians roamed lands further east and south as far as the Don. Lastly the nomadic Scythians occupied at the Altai region of Siberia are called Kindred Scythians or Eastern Scythians.

It was during the 4th century BC. that the Scythian kingdom reached the hightest economic, political, social and cultural development. Many nomads bacme sedentary in the north Black Sea and Kamenskoe Gorodishche was the economic, political and trading capital of Scythia in the 4th till the first half of the 3rd century BC. The great king Atheas united all the Scythian tribes and expanded his territory to Tracian border on the rigth bank of the Danube. In 339 B.C., Atheas was killed at age of 90 in the battle with Philip of Macedon. However the Scythian kingdom remained strong and wealthy. The outside threat did not disturb their stability until the Celts and the Thracians swept in from the west and the Sarmatians from the east starting at the second half of the 3rd century BC.; the Scythian kingdom was absorbed by other nomdic powers and pretty much disappeared in the history.

Language
Scythians are illiterate, there is no written record left. However few Scythian words survived by Herodotus. According to him, 'pata' meant 'to kill'; 'spou' meant 'eye', 'arima' meant 'one', 'oior' meant 'man'. From these words, the phiologists are able to define Scythian dialecte as a prehistoric Indo-European language.

Taming the Horse
The first of these mounted nomads to attract the attention of historians were the Scythians. If the Scythians were not the first to domesticate the horse they were among the earliest, if not the first of the Central Asian people to learn to ride it. Mounted soldiers was the Scythians' success in war; so when they penetrated into Asia, the technique of riding was rapidly adopted and mastered throughout the entire Middle Eastern area.

Though the Scythian had elaborate bitted bridles, the stirrup was not known to them and they rode on saddleclothes, relying on grip and balance. Even so, they were formidable horsemen in battle.

Life Style in the Steppes
The Scythians were famous for their bloody tribal custom. Warriors not only cut off the heads of slain enemies but also made leather-bound drinking cups from their enemies' skulls. They lined these grisly trophies with gold and proudly displayed them to impress their guests. The Scythians were traditionally polygamous and male-dominated society. Even though the ancient Greeks' impression that Scythia was a matriarchy ,it is not supported by the archaeological evidence. A wealthy Scythian could take several wives, and upon his death a son or a brother would assume them as his own. Scythian women had little power beyond the confines of their households, unlike their neighboring tribe the Sarmatians, whose women not only rode but fought with the men equally. Scythian women travlled in waggons with their children instead. Some scholars suggest that the women may have lived a more active and influential life at one time.

Since fish and game are abundant the tribesmen were never short of food. Their staple diet consisted of kumis, a form of fermented mare's milk which is still popular in Central Asia, a good deal of cheese, and vegetables such as onions, garlic and beans. They cooked their meat as a stew. As for cleaning, Herodotus noted that the Scythians did not use water for washing. Instead the women used a paste of pounded cypress, cedar and frankincense that, according to Herodotus, they applied to the face and body: A sweet odor is thereby imparted to them, and when they take off the plaster on the day following, their skin is clean and glossy." Scythians are said to be passionate people - bearded men with dark, deep set eyes with long, wind-snarled hair. They are one of the earlist races wore trousers, reflecting their horseback lifestyle. They wore pliable boots with heels. From the 2000-years-old frozen body recovered in 1947 in Siberia, we learned that Scythians liked to cover themselves with elaborate tattoos.

Religion
The Scythians had no temples, or altars or religious images, and evidently no priests. It is known that the northern nomads including the Scythians practiced Shamanism in their religion: they used shamans to deal with the world of spirits and gave advice to the kings and chiefs. Being superstitious people, they believed in witchcraft, magic and the power of amulets. The most highly honoured of the Scythian shamans came from certain specific families. They are effeminate males called 'enarees' - meant 'men-women' or 'halfmen'. They spoke with high-pitched voices and wore women's clothes.

Rites of Death
Prolonged and demonstrative grieving followed the death of every Scythian tribesman. At the death of a king all Scythian tribes joined a show of stupendous grief that last 40 days. Men of the dominant tribe, the Royal Scythians, cropped their hair, lacerated their ears, forehead, noses and arms. After the king was buried with the best of all his weapons and possessions, the funeral party strangled one of his concubines, his cupbearer, his cook, his lackey, his messenger and his best horses and place all the bodies by him. Then the grave was to be covered with 60-feet hight mound.

Even then, the funeral was not over. One year later as many as 50 Scythian youths might be selected from among those who had directly served the king. They would be strangled and buried in a circle around the royal tomb.

Animal Art Style
One thing that Herodotus failed to report about these Scythian warriors is that they produced art of stunning force and vitality. Around the 6th century B.C., the Scythian created an art of pattern and ornament with naturalistic motifs based on animals. The favorite animals of the Scythian style are the stag, the horse, the ibex, the boar, the bear, the wolf, the felines, the eagle and the fish. The Scythian animal art style was adopted by all the mounted nomads as far as the borders of China by the end of the first millennium BC. During last two centuries, many rich and extraordinary finds were excavated from Scythian tombs and graves such as Pazyryk site in the Altai mountain of south-central Siberia, Kul Oba in the Kuban basin of the northern Black Sea.

[satbir_grewal]

Ravi ji,

Here's more of it.

Scythians/Sacae

The Central-Asian steppe has been the home of nomad tribes for centuries. Being nomads, they roamed across the plains, incidentally attacking the urbanized countries to the south, east and west.
The first to describe the life style of these tribes was a Greek researcher, Herodotus, who lived in the fifth century BCE. Although he concentrates on the tribes living in modern Ukraine, which he calls Scythians, we may extrapolate his description to people in Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan and possibly Mongolia, even though Herodotus usually calls these eastern nomads 'Sacae'. In fact, just as the Scythians and the Sacae shared the same life style, they had the same name: in their own language, which belonged to the Indo-iranian family, they called themselves Skudat ('archers'?). The Persians rendered this name as Sakâ and the Greeks as Skythai. The Chinese called them, at a later stage in history, Sai.
Related subjects:
- Armenia;
- Behistun
inscription;
- Herodotus;
- Skunkha.

Shield emblem in the form of
a panther, made of gold, 7-6th
century BCE.
Hermitage, Petersburg.
Tribes are, almost by definition, very loose organizations. Every now and then, new tribal coalitions came into being, and sometimes, new languages became prominent among the nomads from the Central-Asian steppe.
The oldest group we know of, is usually called Indo-Iranian. (The old name 'Aryan' is no longer used.) There are no contemporary reports about their migration, but it can be reconstructed from their language. It is reasonably certain that at the beginning of the second millennium BCE, the speakers of the Proto-Indo-Iranian language moved from Ukraine to the southeast. From an archaeological point of view, their migration is attested in the change from the Yamnaya culture into the Andronovo culture.
A Scythian archer with bow
and 'pointed hat'.
They invaded the country that was later called Afghanistan, where they separated in an Iranian and an Indian branch. The first group settled in Aria, a name that lives on in our word 'Iran', where they settled after 1000 BCE; the second group reached the Punjab c.1500 BCE. From the second millennium on, three groups of languages can be discerned: the Indian group (Vedic, Sanskrit...), the Scythian group (in the homeland on the steppe), and the Iranian group (Gathic, Persian...). Even when, in the sixth century, the Achaemenid empire was at its most powerful and the Persians lived in comfortable towns, they still remembered their earlier, nomadic life style:
The Persian nation contains a number of tribes, and the ones which Cyrus assembled and persuaded to revolt were the Pasargadae, Maraphii, and Maspii, upon which all the other tribes are dependent. Of these, the Pasargadae are the most distinguished; they contain the clan of the Achaemenids from which spring the Perseid kings. Other tribes are the Panthialaei, Derusiaei, Germanii, all of which are attached to the soil, the remainder -the Dahae, Mardi, Dropici, Sagarti, being nomadic.
[Herodotus, Histories 1.125
tr. Aubrey de Selincourt]

Sakâ tigrakhaudâ
(relief from Persepolis) The second group of nomads known to have gone south, is the tribe of the Cimmerians. Their name Gimirru -given to them by the Assyrians- means 'people traveling back and forth'; this name still exists in our word 'Crimea'. The Cimmerians destroyed the kingdoms of Urartu (an old name for Armenia) and Phrygia (in Turkey) in the first quarter of the seventh century BCE; other Scythians reached Ascalon in Palestine. According to Herodotus, they ruled the northwest of Iran (which Herodotus calls Media) for twenty-eight years.
In the sixth, fifth and fourth centuries BCE, the Persians discerned several nomad tribes on the Central-Asian steppe. As we have seem, they called them Sakâ. We know the names of these tribes from Persian royal inscriptions and can add information from Herodotus and other Greek authors.

The Sakâ haumavargâ ('haoma-drinking Sacae') were subjected by Cyrus the Great. Herodotus calls them Amyrgian Scythians. Haoma was a trance inducing drink, made from fly agaric. This mushroom does not occur south of the river Amudar'ya (Oxus). Consequently, we may assume that these nomads lived in Uzbekistan. Herodotus informs us that they wore trousers and pointed caps; they fought as archers. He also mentions their use of the battle ax (which they called sagaris).
The Sakâ tigrakhaudâ ('Sacae with pointed hats') were defeated in 520/519 BCE by the Persian king Darius I the Great, who gave this tribe a new leader. One of the earlier leaders was killed, the other, named Skunkha, was taken captive and is visible on the relief at Behistun. (It is possible that Darius created a new tribe from several earlier tribes.) Herodotus calls the Sakâ tigrakhaudâ the Orthocorybantians ('pointed hat men'), and informs us that they lived in the same tax district as the Medes. This suggests that the Sakâ tigrakhaudâ lived on the banks of the ancient lower reaches of the Amudar'ya, which used to have a mouth in the Caspian Sea south of Krasnovodsk. The pointed hat is a kind of turban.
The Apâ Sakâ ('Water Sacae') are also known as the Pausikoi, as Herodotus prefers to call them. Later authors, like Arrian of Nicomedia (in his Anabasis) and Ammianus Marcellinus (in his Roman history) call them the Abian Scythians; still later, we encounter them as the Apasiaki, first east and later southwest of Lake Aral. They must be situated along the ancient lower reaches of the Amudar'ya.
The tribe that Herodotus calls 'Massagetes' must have been called something like Mâh-Sakâ in Persian, which means 'Moon Sacae', but this is confusing. Ma-Sakâ means Moon Sacae, and it is known that the Massagetes venerated only one god, the Sun. The Massagetes were responsible for the death of the Persian king Cyrus the Great (in December 530). From Herodotus' description, it is clear that they lived along the Syrdar'ya (Jaxartes).
The nomad tribe known as Dahâ, which means 'robbers', is mentioned for the first time in the Daiva inscription of Xerxes; he must have subjected them. Herodotus calls the Dai a Persian nomad tribe (above), but they can not have lived in Persia proper, because they are mentioned in the Anabasis of Arrian as living along the lower reaches of the Syrdar'ya. In the days of the Macedonian king Alexander the Great, they were famous for their mounted archers. It is possible that this tribe desintegrated after the fall of the Achaemenid empire; one of the tribes that came into being, was that of the Parni, who went south in the third century BCE and founded the Parthian empire.
The Sakâ paradrayâ ('Sacae across the sea') were living in Ukraine. These are the nomads that the Greeks called Scythians. In (514 or) 513 BCE, king Darius launched a disastrous campaign against the Sakâ paradrayâ. Herodotus gives a long description of their way of life and discerns many tribes in the neighborhood.
The Royal Scythians lived in the southern part of Ukraine, immediately north of the Greek towns.
The Scythian-Farmers seem to be identical with the archaeological culture known as Chernoles, which has been identified with the Iron Age Slavs.
Probably, we may identify the Neuri with the so-called Milograd culture, the archaeological remains of which have been found on the confluence of the rivers Dnepr and Pripyat, north of modern Kiev. They may be the ancestors of the Balts.
Herodotus' story about the Man-eaters received some confirmation with the excavation of human remains that were gnawed at by human jaws; these excavations were along the river Sula, to the southeast of Kiev.
The Argippaeans are sometimes identified with the ancestors of the Calmucs.
The Issedones may be identical to the Wu-sun who (according to Chinese texts) lived on the shore of Lake Balchash.
The Sauromatae are mentioned by Herodotus as the descendants of Scythian fathers and Amazon mothers. Of course, this is a legend, but the tribe did exist and was to move to the west after 130 BCE. In the process, they assimilated the Royal Scythians (above). In the late first century BCE, the Sarmatian coalition consisted of four tribes:
The Iazyges, which had once lived on the shores of the Sea of Azov, were now living on the northern bank of the Danube. They were to move to what is now eastern Hungary, where they settled in c.50 CE. They were defeated by the Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius (in 175).
The Urgi lived on the banks of the Dnepr, south of Kiev.
The Royal Scythians were still living in the south of Ukraine and had become the most important Sarmatian tribe. They and the Urgi became known as the Sarmati. The Romans seem to have accepted their settlement in Hungary, but the situation was sometimes tense. The Sarmati were, for example, responsible for the destruction of the Twenty-first legion Rapax in 92.
The Roxolani initially lived between the Don and the Dnepr but settled on the lower reaches of the Danube, where the Iazyges had been living before they migrated to Hungary.


The Khan (leader) of the
Tatars. Note the bow and
the pointed hat.
The steppe nomads frequently attacked the urbanized regions to the east, south or west. Usually, this created great havoc, but after some time, they went back to their homeland. However, it was necessary for the attacked states to defend themselves. The Indians thought that they did not need walls because they were was protected by the Himalayas; c.110 BCE, the valley of the Indus was run over. The Chinese built the 'Wall of ten thousand miles' to protect themselves. The rulers of the Achaemenid empire, from Cyrus the Great to Alexander the Great, may have built walls as well. These walls are mentioned in the eighteenth sura of the Quran and in medieval legend, but cannot be identified with known archaeological remains. It is certain, however, that both Cyrus and Alexander built garrison towns along the river Syrdar'ya or Jaxartes; our sources call them Cyreschata and Alexandria Eschatê.
Nomadism continued to exist into the first and second millennium CE. Several tribes may be mentioned. The Alani -whose language lives on in modern Ossetian- are known from the first century CE; they lived in modern Kazakhstan. Later, they moved to the west, being pushed forward by the Huns, which are known from Chinese texts as the Xiung-nu. Later tribal formations were the Avars, the Chasars, the Bulgars, the Turks, the Magyars, the Cumans, the Tatars, the Mongols and the Cossacks.

Literature

J. Harmatta, 'Herodotus, historian of the Cimmerians and the Scythians' in: Hérodote et les peuples non Grecs. Neuf exposés suivis de discussions (Entretiens sur l' Antiquité classique, tome XXV) (1990 Genève), pages 115-130.
Renate Rolle, Die Welt der Skythen. Stutenmelker und Pferdebogner: ein antikes Reitervolk in neuer Sicht, 1980 Lucerne
T. Sulimivski, 'The Scyths' in: Ilya Gershevitch (ed.): The Cambridge History of Iran, vol. II: The Median and Achaemenian Periods, 1985 Cambridge, pages 149-199.
Stephanie West, "Scythians" in: Egbert Bakker, Irene de Jong and Hans van Wees (eds.), Brill's Companion to Herodotus (2002 Leiden), pages 437-456

[ravichaudhary]

could darius collect 700,000 soldiers.

Do you know what it takes to feed 700,000 soldiers , everyday?

What the population of then Iran?
ravi

[satbir_grewal]

You seriously believe that the Persian empire was confined to modern day Iran and the soldiers of Darius' army were from that geographical area alone.

In any case, what source do exactly rely upon when it comes to Scythian history. You can't be sitting on a computer table and debunking centuries' worth of scholarship and historical accounts. I don't think that some Scythian warrior is going to get up from his Kurgan and narrate his times. I don't mean to suggest for a moment that ancient scholars did not have a prediliction for exaggeration but then you'll have to grant them that they often relied upon word of mouth for their accounts. They didn't have CNN beaming in live pictures from the battlefields of Ulski and Maikop. For instance, "an army of 700,000" usually meant a very large army and not that some historian had gone into the rank and file to conduct a census. It was mostly figure of speech.

Having said that, the fact remains that the Scythians were by and large nomads with a barbarous inclination. You have to come up something better to prove otherwise.

[shailendra]

Ramandeep (Sep 17, 2004 06:01 p.m.):
Satbir Grewal (Sep 17, 2004 11:40 a.m.):
Bhai,

this aryan and scythian business is very confusing. on one hand history opines that jats are scythians and on the other, arya samajis say we are aryans. who is right ? is the arya samaj presenting a convoluted form of history to justify it's existence among jats ? has the arya samaj twisted jat history to it's convenience ? we jats have fallen prey to outlandish theories and have forgotten our ancestry. is it too late ?

Ram Ram!!

Hi,

With regard to the Arya Samajhis ... do they refer to Jats as Aryans in the sense Aryan=Noble (literal), OR, Jat as a foreign race (Aryan)??

Please clarify.


Regards,

As I understand 'Arya' was also used liberaly in Ancient India to address a person of royal descent.

In any case, all these long cut and paste (or quoted) theories here are still just what they are; THEORIES...
There is no conclusive evidence on either. I hardly see what the debate is about? Also, isn't it true that it's not only us, the Jats, but more than half of the North Indian region people in some way or the other relying on the authenticity (or not) of these theories?....

[ajat]

Hi Mr. Grewal,

“we jats have fallen prey to outlandish theories and have forgotten our ancestry. is it too late ?”

I agree wholeheartedly. Can you tell me a bit about your ancestry – the Grewal tribe.?

[satbir_grewal]

Mr Sunny Singh,

I'll tell you all about the Grewals if you can just tell me your goth. I hope I'm not asking for too much because usually when a man ends his name with just a "singh", I'm afraid he might not have much ahead of it anyway. So, if you can do everbody a favour by elaborating "sunny singh.......... what????

cheers

[ajat]

Hi Mr. Grewal,

I didn’t know the prerequisite to sharing your knowledge about Grewals was requiring full knowledge about the origins of the person posing the original question?

I am a Jat from the Hoshiarpur District. I am also a Sikh, and have noted a great many Grewal Jat Sikhs.

Best Wishes,

[ravichaudhary]

Satbir

why do you not start a separate topic for Grewals ?

Many of us will be interested

Ravi Chaudhary

[ratananmol]

Dear All:
would it help us in any way to establish that we are outsiders.
It seems like a brahman's conspiracy to segregate the kaum from the rest of india to strip the advantageous position we have despite our small numbers.
The aryan invasion theory has been attacked because of the discomfort of brahman with something that establishes his exploitative past and tactics.
Please think for a while before we add fuel to this matter.
We are indians, the sons of the soil and holders of her honour and anyone trying to alienate us with our land is not a friend.As lord krishna has said it is important to say the right thing not necessarily the truth, even if there is some truth in this matter.
Anmol.
Best.

[satbir_grewal]

Dear Anmol,

Whenever we indulge in history, we cannot afford to be sentimental or mytho-religious about it. It always has to be a logical and critical pursuit. As far as the Brahmans are concerned, they certainly have no right to dub somebody a foreigner because they themselves claim descent from the Aryans, who, by all accounts were a pastoral, central asian race that invaded India about 2,500 years back. So, no issue here, really.

As far as the use of the term 'arya' is concerned, it certainly meant 'noble' in Rig Vedic language but it also denoted an ethno-linguistic meaning. The stark ethno-cultural differences between the people of Southern and Eastern India as compared to North-Western India certainly hint towards an influx if not invasion of foreign races into the fertile plains of Pakistani and Indian Punjab (this most certainly includes Haryana and Delhi). The Aryans, Scythians, Bactrians, Persians, Turks, Mongols, Huns, Mughals and Arabs have invaded India on a regular basis. It's no use wallowing in a denial syndrome. Mythological and neo-religious balderdash is for the consumption of the gullible rustic masses. It's no use burying our heads in the sands of ignorance and befooling ourselves to glory. I'm a Jat and I like talking straight. We should have the nerve to face the truth.

Regards.

[ravichaudhary]

Satbir Grewal (Sep 24, 2004 03:59 a.m.):
As far as the use of the term 'arya' is concerned, it certainly meant 'noble' in Rig Vedic language but it also denoted an ethno-linguistic meaning.

Regards.


Dear Satbir

That is what I understand 'Arya' to mean- "noble", exactly as the Rig veda, and the other Vedas too for that matter say- the oldest sources that we have incidently.

Could you clarify the second part ..".ethno linguistic".

Are you cliaming that the Rig Veda and the Jats have no connection?

Ravi

[satbir_grewal]

Ethno-linguistic basically means that the Aryans, were ethnically (I suppose I can hazard calling it racially) different from the original (again, curiously a subject of fierce debate on this site) inhabitants of north-western India. There was also a very evident lingual difference. The Aryans simply spoke a different tongue which was more akin to Iranian (Avestan) than to, say, Tamil or maybe Nagamese. These were the two major factors which set the Aryans apart from the aboriginal inhabitants (by the way, even today, 'adivasi' means aboriginal).

Coming on to the Rig Vedic connection of the Jats, well, I'll have to say yes, there is no clear mention of anything called Jat in the Rig Veda and if there is then Mr Max Mueller was probably sleeping when he translated the Rig Veda. Unless, of course if you take in to account the mention of some obscure tribe called Jatrika in the Mahabharata. Now, calling them Jats will be stretching it a bit too far I'm afraid.

Whatever fictitious connections have been manufactured regarding Jats and the Rig Veda are tales spun by wily Brahmans to assimilate a powerful section of society firmly into the Brah'maniac'al fold. Otherwise, who's going to get havans done and who's going to pay them their 'dakshina'. Do you think a Jat fully aware of his Indo-Scythian ancestry is going to care two hoots about the Brahman. So these tales are just a survival tool of the priesthood. We possess this unique knack
of accepting mythology as history without much delay. These are signs of collective ignorance. Associating ourselves with one sage/rishi or the other gives us immense satisfaction while we can't even tell somebody about the name of our own ancestor three generations up the tree. But, yes, we're pretty sure of the fact that we're direct descendants of some celestial sage. We also hear stories of some goth springing from the bones of God knows what. Since when have bones started bearing children. Ours is not to reason why, ours is but to tell a lie. So, Ravi ji, I'm afraid you can't convince me on this one. I would prefer a much more down to earth central Asian origin of the Jats. My ancestors were no sages and friends of Lord Krishna, they were just poor farmers and soldiers trying to eke out a living in this world ridden with cockeyed myths and fantasies.

Regards.

[chhoraharyanada]

Sunny Singh (Sep 22, 2004 07:37 p.m.):
Hi Mr. Grewal,

I didn’t know the prerequisite to sharing your knowledge about Grewals was requiring full knowledge about the origins of the person posing the original question?

I am a Jat from the Hoshiarpur District. I am also a Sikh, and have noted a great many Grewal Jat Sikhs.

Best Wishes,

o kidhan doabeya?

kithe gaya si?

[ravichaudhary]

Satbir

Please stop making assumptions about 'Aryans". No one has been able to show up " Aryan" as a race.

In the Rig veda, the term "Brahmin" appears only once, that also only in the last mandal or the 10th book, which is a late interpolation.

The Rig Veda is not a "Brahmin" document.

So please let us get off this " everything is the wily Brahmin's fault".

Jat goth names appear for 60 goths.

How do you explain that ?

[satbir_grewal]

Mr Raman,

Why don't you find some other site for your 'kidhan' niceties ? This site is for Hindu Jats and you want to open a chat session in the middle of a, well, debate. Were you dozing when you opened this forum and started typing away without even bothering to find out what the discussion was all about. Instead of jabbering away in Punjabi, why don't you give Haryanvi a try ? That would seem more appropriate for this site. Move on, Raman.

[satbir_grewal]

ramandeep,

have you got something meaningful to contribute or are you just using this forum as a chat room. Cut the 'kidhan' stuff and jabber away in punjabi on some other site. As it is you stand out as a non-Jat on a hindu Jat site. So spare us the non-serious stuff and do everyone a favour by 'kidhaning' elsewhere. I hope you weren't dozing when you entered the forum. You don't seem to be overly concerned about the topic at hand and all you're doing is eating away precious webspace with your riff-raff talk.

BYE.

[vmalik]

ramandeep,

have you got something meaningful to contribute or are you just using this forum as a chat room. Cut the 'kidhan' stuff and jabber away in punjabi on some other site. As it is you stand out as a non-Jat on a hindu Jat site. So spare us the non-serious stuff and do everyone a favour by 'kidhaning' elsewhere. I hope you weren't dozing when you entered the forum. You don't seem to be overly concerned about the topic at hand and all you're doing is eating away precious webspace with your riff-raff talk.

BYE.

[chhoraharyanada]

Ram Ram 2 all ...

Dear Satbir/Vidya/whoever you are (all 3 posts have the same IP):

I was talking to Sunny Singh. He is a Jat Sikh poster who knows his **** when it comes to jat history. Hence the Punjabi salutation.

He is/was a regular poster on this site and we were having a nice long-winded discussion on the "Jat - Ahir relationshp" thread.

And I have contributed to discussions all over this site. Par vaise bhi, tujhe kya oye?

Jatu basha thaane main sikhya doonga!
(actually Im kidding its not that good)

Regards and chill out man,

RSS.

[chhoraharyanada]

Ravi Chaudhary (Sep 24, 2004 04:15 p.m.):
Satbir

Please stop making assumptions about 'Aryans". No one has been able to show up " Aryan" as a race.

In the Rig veda, the term "Brahmin" appears only once, that also only in the last mandal or the 10th book, which is a late interpolation.

The Rig Veda is not a "Brahmin" document.

So please let us get off this " everything is the wily Brahmin's fault".

Jat goth names appear for 60 goths.

How do you explain that ?


Hi Ravi bhai,

The Rig Veda has plenty of Jat gotra names mentioned, right?

What about the other vedas? Arthava, yajur etc? Do they have as heavy a Jat influence?
I ought to know as my dad's side are Arya Samajhis but I never took an interest.
So please bata de-na,

Thanks,

[vmalik]

ramandeep,

have you got something meaningful to contribute or are you just using this forum as a chat room. Cut the 'kidhan' stuff and jabber away in punjabi on some other site. As it is you stand out as a non-Jat on a hindu Jat site. So spare us the non-serious stuff and do everyone a favour by 'kidhaning' elsewhere. I hope you weren't dozing when you entered the forum. You don't seem to be overly concerned about the topic at hand and all you're doing is eating away precious webspace with your riff-raff talk.

BYE.

[ravichaudhary]

Dear Vidhya

Allow me to stop this digression of your, comment on Ramandeep at the pass, before it gets unhealthy.

Ramandeep is very much of a Jat. He may be more familar with Punjabi.Punjabi is more expressive in somethings. I also use it.

Any language is and should be welcome.

Do note we are communicating here in English.

If I was you, I would delete this comment completely and apologise

Ramandeep. please take Vidya's comment in a good natured way.

To answer the other question, the other Vedas and subsequent Indian literature, including the Ramayana, the Mahrbaharat contain many references to the Jats.

The Gotra of Lord Ram is Kukur, Kak, which is also a Jat Goth. I made a post about this

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/message/1561
see also
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/message/1599

Undoubtedly there are references to Jat goths found in Literature , geographically from India to Mesopotamia to Europe.

If we to approach the subject objectively, we should be prepared to take into account these references, which go back to 2200 BCE in Mesopotamia, and not simply pooh pooh them away , or get bogged down into an Aryan V Scythian labels or anything else. or what religion they followed then or now

The subject has to be looked at from a Jat perspective independent of the other streams of thought


Ramandeep

The topic is being kept to a narrow focus to help Satbir and us reach some common ground, hence we may as well concentrate on one issue, one source- the Rig Veda in an ancient enough text- 3000 BCE to 2000 BCE.


The Rig veda is not a Brahmin document

Over 60 Jat goths are mentioned

Over 10 rishis also have Jat goths


Ravi

[vmalik]

ramandeep,

why don't you 'kidhan' on a punjabi site instead of degenerating this reasonably intellectual discussion into a chat session. Post something if you have something meaningful to contribute instead of eating into precious webspace.

[chhoraharyanada]

Vidya,

oi ... chup hone ke liye kya loge?

bas bhi kar!!!

Ravi Bhai,

Thanks!

If we're assuming that these Jat gotras exist in the Rig Veda, then we are entitled to reject the notion that " Jat=Saka "? Am I right?
This would present the critical thinker with 2 questions:
1) putting a date on the Rig Veda
2) If the Jat are not Sakas, or of Scythian origin - then what are they?

regards,

RAM RAM

[ajat]

Kidhan Ramandeep, ki hal ya? Yaar, main mara motha break lai laya.

Maybe I should stop with the Panjabi, we do not want to piss of the Panjabi Jat Grewal. Or the Malik/Ghatwal Jat whose ancestors (unknown to him) hail from Afghanistan.

Yaaro, don’t forget where you came from.

Best Wishes,

[ravichaudhary]

Ramandeep (Sep 26, 2004 05:24 p.m.):
V

Ravi Bhai,

Thanks!

If we're assuming that these Jat gotras exist in the Rig Veda, then we are entitled to reject the notion that " Jat=Saka "? Am I right?
*****************

NO we are not right, in doing that.

**************

This would present the critical thinker with 2 questions:
1) putting a date on the Rig Veda
2) If the Jat are not Sakas, or of Scythian origin - then what are they?




regards,

RAM RAM

Re 2, there is no conflict. both answers are correct, in varying degrees

there is also the timeline as well as the geograhical issues

ravi

[chhoraharyanada]

Hi Sunny,

Main teek haa! Tusi kimme ho?

To Ravi Bhai(or actually open question to both of you),

I am a little confused.
I had an argument with a friend of mine, a bit of right-wing hindu punjabi, who is hell-bent on denying any existence of foreign tribes (eg Sakas) entering the sub-continent and forming caste-based communities (Jat,Gujjar,Ahir,later Rajput etc).

On this whole Rig Veda issue ... I said to him that gotras like "Maur", "Sahota", "Attri", "Sansi" all exist in the Rig Veda.

To which he said "well if the Rig Veda is upto 5000 years old and the Sakas didnt come till 2000 years after that - then surely Jats are a race belonging natively to the indian subcontinent?" And none of this 'we came from outside' talk.

I said that it was not concrete that only one Saka influx occured into the subcontinent. I said that there had been many, and there were a few historians who had said that too ...

Help! What are your views/comments on this.

[ajat]

Hi Raman,

Vadheya Vadheya! Sada vi fateh fateh ya!

If I may interject on Ravi’s points – I personally do not believe the people we call Jats today were in India during the Rg Veda.

Regards,

[ajat]

Hi Raman,

“On this whole Rig Veda issue ... I said to him that gotras like "Maur", "Sahota", "Attri", "Sansi" all exist in the Rig Veda.”

You’re a smart guy, do the math. Take the total population of Maurs, Sahota, Sansi, etc. and work backwards at 25 years per generation. How many years can you go back – 1200 B.C.? Hardly.

Better yet - take the entire Jat population! I think we only have a handful of major famines in India over the last 200 years, some of which did not affect Jats directly. And of course some wars. The total population of Jats in 1925 was around 9 million, now its about 35 million, but this is due to global population explosion.

Best Wishes,

[chhoraharyanada]

Hi Sunny,

You raise quite a good point.

How about if we clumped Rajputs, Ahirs and Gujjars and added it to that mix?
(I dont know populations of these 3 - sorry!)
Do you think it'd make a difference?

I mean after all there has been some caste mobility amongst the above ...

[ravichaudhary]

Sunny

How do you explain the Jat Goths found in the Rig Veda?

Ravi

[ajat]

Hi Guys,

Ravi and Raman - this should answer both of your questions:

All these groups - Jats, Gujars, Ahirs, and Rajputs - allowed some native people to enter their fold.

Regards,

[ravichaudhary]

Sunny

Your reply does not tell me why the Jat goths are in the Rig Veda.

ravi

[ajat]

Hi Ravi,

Please list the Jat Goths in Rg Veda again.

Thanks,

[ravichaudhary]

Sunny Singh (Oct 13, 2004 12:22 p.m.):
Hi Ravi,

Please list the Jat Goths in Rg Veda again.

Thanks,

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/message/421
Jat Rishis in the Rig Veda


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/message/420
Jat Clans in the Rig Veda

Sunny

your input appreciated

Best regards

Ravi

[ajat]

Hi Ravi,

The following clan names catch me as possible:

Puniya

Paura

Sibi

Vrika

Regards,

[gurjant]

I'm just checking whether I'm allowed to post here.

Regards.

[ravichaudhary]

Gurjant

Everyone is welcome

In case people are wondering about who you are,

Let me mention a note of thanks, and congratulations of your translation of Duleh's " Jattan da Ithiaas".

It is an invaluable contribution.

We will all look forward to more from you

Best regards

Ravi

[chhoraharyanada]

Dear Ravi Bhai & Sunny phaaji,

1. Is it possible that there was more than 1 saka entry into the sub continent - ie, pre-dating their suggested entry? Correct me if I am wrong - but I believe there are a few historians (both indian and western) who've said that there were more than one main influx?

2. Also another theory - if these gotras in the Rig Veda are to be taken seriously .... and then we accept the main saka influx occured when it did - does this not give some weighting to Hukam Pawar's theory of "in and out" movements vis-a-vis the indian sub-continent?

Take care all.

Ram Ram and Sat Sri Akaal.

[ajat]

Hi Raman,

“1. Is it possible that there was more than 1 saka entry into the sub continent - ie, pre-dating their suggested entry?

Correct me if I am wrong - but I believe there are a few historians (both indian and western) who've said that there were more than one main influx?”

Sure, Pryluski and Tarn have suggested this based on the HABITS of the Madra people of Sialkot. Agrawala adding to this suggests their were kanta/kand ending PLACE NAMES in the Panjab area and suggests Sakas were in Panjab prior to Panini.

It is reasonable to assume some Central Asian or Persian tribes (based on funeral rites) were in Panjab prior to suggested influx just based on the peculiar customs there. I think AK Narain suggest that the Earliest Sakas in South Asia were the Saka Haumavarga (Amygian Scythians), or the Soma drinking Sakas mention in the Rg Veda.

Still others argue that the original Aryans who inhabited Panjab were pushed out of Panjab. This is based on the belief that while the Indus river was mentioned in early Hindu texts, the sacred river later became the Sarawati and Panjab was looked upon as devoid of religion. Attachments to the Mahabharata such as Karna Parva (excuse spelling) suggest performing purification acts before a self-respecting Hindu was to visit the Vahika (Panjab). Vahi and Heeka were some supposed demons of Panjab. This people believe suggest the Rg Vedic Aryan were ousted from the Panjab by some powerful and “unclean” tribe, most probably from Central Asia.

But still this is a lot of speculation. And exactly how Saka were in India at that time? What was the limit of their influence?

“2. Also another theory - if these gotras in the Rig Veda are to be taken seriously .... and then we accept the main saka influx occured when it did - does this not give some weighting to Hukam Pawar's theory of "in and out" movements vis-a-vis the indian sub-continent?”

You are basing this question on another big assumption – that Jats are Sakas. Still though, how are you going to prove that early Sakas (Haumavarga) left India and for what reason? And the returned as Sakas proper (Massagetae), and Yuezhi and White Huns?

Even if we assume that this is remotely possible, are the latter even the same people as the former?

Gurjant, Kidhan tu vi ageyan?

Regards,

[lrburdak]

Hi,
Members may like to see relation of Jats with Croats and Serbs in the following article on URL-
http://www.iranchamber.com/history/articles/common_origin_croats_serbs_jats.php

Regards,

[supersteve]

but to me it makes no sense because there was two main groups of aryan civilization one in India and the other in Iran and Scythians are natives to eastern iran so in sense that would make scythians aryans. And it would explain are close relationship between the jats, serbs and croats as we are all pure Aryans. And the jats are a product of western and eastern (irans and indias) Aryan Civilizations.

p.s.- it seems to me that we need a person of jat orgin thats experienced and qualified to look into these matters. because it would drive that person to findout the truth of his or hers race. and not listen to these british fools like Cunningham

[supersteve]

First off i agree with Satbir its time for jats to be proud of are history. one thing we do no is that we have Scythian (Saka) blood in us wheather its Aryo-Scythian or fully Scythian its a proud lineage. Second my family is of Jat Sikh lineage from the punjabi we now live in Canada that makes me 4th generation Canadian. people here in canada also realize the might of the jats from the punjab even my white friends ask me to tell them storys of the lion of the punjab Ranjit Singh. So all in all im staying that are history has always been a powerful and strong one we jats are truly underrated for are abilitys.

[dahiyarules]

Hmmm! if ya'll are proud of having an "Aryan/Scythian" connection, then ya'll must be proud of Hitler's views. And in his views, we are the mutt (dirty) race. We arent anywhere close to being white. Now shut up, and close the discussion.

A person's gene's hardly make any differnece. His actions make a lot of difference. further, a person's efforts prescribe the person's actions. So go out and get working towards what you really want to do. Being "aryan/scythian" is not going to make any difference.

[junnu]

Hmmm! if ya'll are proud of having an "Aryan/Scythian" connection, then ya'll must be proud of Hitler's views. And in his views, we are the mutt (dirty) race. We arent anywhere close to being white. Now shut up, and close the discussion.

A person's gene's hardly make any differnece. His actions make a lot of difference. further, a person's efforts prescribe the person's actions. So go out and get working towards what you really want to do. Being "aryan/scythian" is not going to make any difference.

Dear Sumit,

Just because of one rogue aryan 'hitler' you cannot deduce that Jats are not aryans. Aryans were there before him...and after. I think its a very healthy discussion...and we cannot just "shut up" and stop thinking.He was partly right....we are Not white. Our skin pigmentation proves it. But we are not blacks, chinese or Dravadians either...so what are we? Basically Mutts....but Damn good ones !! LOL Lets try to preserve this Mutt race...which orignated by accident.
Just a thought to ponder upon.......

Junnu

[supersteve]

Hmmm! if ya'll are proud of having an "Aryan/Scythian" connection, then ya'll must be proud of Hitler's views. And in his views, we are the mutt (dirty) race. We arent anywhere close to being white. Now shut up, and close the discussion.

A person's gene's hardly make any differnece. His actions make a lot of difference. further, a person's efforts prescribe the person's actions. So go out and get working towards what you really want to do. Being "aryan/scythian" is not going to make any difference.

If you new anything of WW2 history and Hitlers veiws on India you would no that Hitler respected Jats and new of are Aryan connection and their where Jats that also fought for the Nazi's. Its weird but it is History. Heres some links below.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1399564/posts

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3684288.stm[/URL]
[URL="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3684288.stm"] (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3684288.stm)

[smeker]

Aryans belong to south caucasian group,spread in Asia Minor,along whit the hittites(see hittite mythology ,very simmilar whit the vedas);but the schitians(and also the thracian confuse whit schitians)belong to north caucasian tipe.This 2 groups have their own individual caracteristic.The idea is, schitians are not aryan(south caucasians)but a linguistic related group.
The term aryan is not a lucky one.We have to find a better one.Any sugestions?

[sampuran]

Dear Sumit,

Just because of one rogue aryan 'hitler' you cannot deduce that Jats are not aryans. Aryans were there before him...and after. I think its a very healthy discussion...and we cannot just "shut up" and stop thinking.He was partly right....we are Not white. Our skin pigmentation proves it. But we are not blacks, chinese or Dravadians either...so what are we? Basically Mutts....but Damn good ones !! LOL Lets try to preserve this Mutt race...which orignated by accident.
Just a thought to ponder upon.......

Junnu


Hitler was no Aryan. He just imagined he was, a pure one ! Dictators have to find some extraordinary slogan to unite the people under them. Best is to perpetuate lies that they are racially superior and enemy is davil.

Colour of skin decides a persons race, especially within India ? Just live in Andamans for couple of years like the natives do . Then see whether you look more similar to them or not ? Or you can stay under the burqa and give yourself a new racial nomenclature.

[narenderkharb]

[quote=smeker]Aryans belong to south caucasian group,spread in Asia Minor,along whit the hittites(see hittite mythology ,very simmilar whit the vedas);but the schitians(and also the thracian confuse whit schitians)belong to north caucasian tipe.This 2 groups have their own individual caracteristic.The idea is, schitians are not aryan(south caucasians)but a linguistic related group.
The term aryan is not a lucky one.We have to find a better one.Any s
?[/quougestionste]
Your articles are thought provoking and well researched.Please continue

[smeker]

The term south caucasian is a geographic and a linguistic one.South caucasians are the hittites,mittani people,people from Urartu(today Armenia)and indians from Gange.The hittite language is almost identical whit old sanskrite.The Kurgan culture north of Caucas mountans seems to be the birth place of schitian ethnic group.This group apear arheologic in 5500BC,so is relative contemporane whit aryans(who apear in the same time in south of Caucas mountains).Iranic group of skitians,thracian,persian is not a new indoeuropean group like many belive, but it have same age as aryans.
Are 5 major theories about the original land of aryans :
1-the Max Muller theory who place the first aryans in Central Asia in today Thadjikistan or Afganistan(base on similar names of rivers and places in afganistan and names of rivers and places from rg veda)or in today Ukraine(base on kurgan culture).
2-in carpatian area(romania)base also on similar names of rivers,towns,mountains and the names of ones of Rg Veda and Mahabharata(this theory is postulate by english and american researchers from Cambrige,also by Napoleon Savescu).
3-from Indus Valley culture(Mohenjo Daro) they spread around in Central Asia and Europe(postulate by some indian and brahmin researchers).
4-aryans already exist in Ganga plain in the time of nonaryan Indus civilisation(2900-1700bc),but their material culture was not develop until 1500bc when they became liders in spreading indoeuropean religion and language around the world(this theory have few suporters iven in India).
5-the anatolian(Turkey and South Caucase)theory postulate that a aryan group from Mitani(relatives of hittites and urartu) defeted by assirians around 1800BC,move eastward pass through Indus Valley(peacefull or conflictual whit the local population)and setlled in Ganga Valley.
The hittites
Hittite language is the oldest indoeuropean language discovered.
The hittites was the first people who use iron as a common metal(for agricultural tooles and weapons),they are the first people who replace the bronze whit the iron.
In Armenia was discovered a metalurgic factory 7000 years old.Here was prelucrate objects of iron(steel),aluminium(rediscovered in 19century),cuper,magnesium and other metals.The workers use a bandage covering the mouth.
Hittites was having the most advance language in the world at that time.The religious hittite prayers have an elevate language ,fact for which we speak not only about a mithology(like in the case of sumerians,assirians and egiptians)but also about a theology-hittite theology.In this case the hittites are the first theologians of the world.The hittite texts,persian Avesta and Vedas are from the same family of tinking.Hittites(2500-1200BC) indirectly influence the first greek philosophers(700BC)and the first indian philosophers(900BC).Also greeks(in 400BC) and indians(in 50AD)was the first that completly develope the art(are 3 stages of art:primitive,intermediar,complete).Hittites&Co was agricultores,seminomadic and nomadic people.
The thracian was the most numerous people after indians(Herodot say),living in today Turkey,north Greece,Bulgaria,east Serbia,Romania,west Ukraine,Cehia,Slovacia.Was divided in 200 tribes(messi,bessi,phrigians,abioi,boii,getae,and other 194 tribes).They are the aliates of Troi against greeks,and they destroy the hittites in 1200BC.
The gene M 173 is the iranic gene.This gene is spread among east europeans,central asia and north west india .
Is not such thing as pure rase but dominand gene.
The term aryan is a social one(aryan=nobil)but today is use like a ethnic term;indoeuropean(or euroindian)is a more better term but is to long.
If the rase is base on skin color then are only 2 rases temperate rase(white)and tropical rase(black).In this case the northen chinese(white)are a diferent rase then chinese from south china(black).In reality the rase is base on morphologic structure of the body.And we have 3 rase:caucasian(black or white)-european,turkish,indian,finnic,semitic;mongoloid(b lack or white)-chinese,indonesian,amerindian,polinesian;afroide(i n general black)-african,australian aborigen,melanesian.Inreality exist only 1 rase,the human rase.

[sktewatia]

and modern aggrawals (bania) are their descendents. This is proved by the geographical area of aggrawals which is same as modern jat area. i.e from ganges to indus river through rajasthan. However, they are not pure jats but seems to be a mixture like kayasthas as they are on the average not as fare as jats are n nose on the average is also not as sharp as average jat has. Many castes originated from jat gotras; viz,

modern heers/aheers who write yadav now originated from heer jats of heer-ranjha fame.

gujjars originated from buddgujjar/gujjar jats found mostly in faridabad district. MLA from palwal, harkishan singh, in undivided punjab was budgujjar.

rode/arode are from rod/road/rode jats.

modern punjabi khattri caste is from khattri jats. even kshatriya is sanskritised form of khattri.

kundu is also perhaps a caste in orissa, is after kundu jats.

bengal/ is after bengal/bhangal/bhangi/vehngi jats. there used to be one bhangi misl of jats in punjab out of 12 misls including the one shukarchakiya misl of Maharaja Ranjit Singh himself was jat. obviously begal's capital dhaka is after dhaka jats.

modern rajputs often are called thakur is after thakran jats.

again muslim meo caste in haryana/rajasthan and hindu meo caste in orissa is after meo jats.


almost half of the germans write mann which is after mann jats.

almost all germans/north europeans are called teutonic/teuton which after tevti/teoti/teotian/teutian or tewatia jats. teuton is synonymous with aryan.

and again aryan race is known woldwide. arya/arh/arhia is just a goth of jats.

goth is again known worldwide. bargothi/gothi/badegothi is just a surname (in bulandshahar area chikul village) of jats.

all sakas are known after saka/sikarwar jats.

kushanas are known after kaswan/kushan jats.

all turks over the world are known after toor jats. mughals were chaghtai turks, delhi sultanate rulers were ilbari turks. modern turkey. chinese turkistan....


list is endless and can be multiplied as much as you can with little care n knowledge.

[sktewatia]

sindhi are known after sandhu/sindhu jats.

marathi (maha-rathi) are after rathi jats of rashtrakuta's empire fame about 11 hundred yrs back.

singhalies are named after single/sanghal jats.

anndhra is after andre jats.

gujrati/gujrat is after gujar caste or gujjar jats of gurjar pratihar empire fame.

lohar caste is after lohar jats.

[sktewatia]

useless to say they were/are all one and same. all jats, all from same area i.e. indo-european or precisely central asia. from time to time whichever goth of jats was in power in central asia they were known by that name. even huns are not to be confused as mongolian race. they did have sharp nose n all that. even today hunz/hanz/hans are abundantly found in germany and in india recently one jat sikh raghubir singh hun was major general. like aryan they are all called barbarian and barbaric people.

have u ever analysed why kanishka started saka era though he was kushana. the fact is that kushanas were also sakas. even mahatma budh is known as saka/sakya muni. he was also saka. sakas were the most just people say greek historians. at the sametime very fond of dance n music but most ruthless also. herodotus often calls these people as indian getae, thracian getae, scythian getae, persian getae.. etc. that means all of them were jats.

similarly dev, danavs and assurs are also same and all jats and all aryans.

[sampuran]

Dear Soka
The chronology of Indian (Aryan) civillisation given in your post is incorrect. What Mr Max Muller propounded for reasons other than scholarly is still being flouted as universal truth by many misguided academicians and intellectuals, especially in the Christian world. They find it difficult to digest that human civillisation could have started many millennia before what is written in the Bible. Even Mr Stephen Hawkins could not give up this prejudice much like Mother Terassa who in spite of being revered in India</ST1:pas a saintly woman, wanted to convert her biographer, a Hindu, to the only True Religion in the world. A very good article (A Hindu History of Time) on this aspect has been written by Mr Sudhakar Raje. You can find it at http://www.organiser.org/dynamic/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=85&page=26 Another (http://www.organiser.org/dynamic/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=85&page=26 Another) article decisively refutes the falsehood of vested religio-political interests regarding the origin of Aryans. The full text can be found at http://www.indiacause.com/columns/OL_051212.htm (http://www.indiacause.com/columns/OL_051212.htm)
<O:p
If the information supplied by Sh Tewatia is even 50% relevant, then we Indians need to change our outlook towards each other. It shows clearly that various castes have emanated from the Jats themselves. It also proves the oft repeated contention by knowledgable persons that Hinduism as a religion does not support casteism. This system is corruption of ‘Varnashram’ dharma. In that light, should we, especially the members on this forum, continue to carry our caste based prejudices ? Others may be excused on account of ignorance, but not us.
Second point that emerges from Sh Tewatia’s posts is about regionalism in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com /><st1:country-region><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = <st1:pIndia</st1:country-region>. Jat genealogies can be traced all over Indian subcontinent. I would say, if not all, at least 90% of the agrarian and associated communities of <st1:country-region><ST1:pIndia </ST1:p</st1:country-region>have Jat ancestory.
<O:p</O:p
As we trace our roots and relationships with the wider world, first we should be doing so closer home, within our own country. Or the beggages of casteism and regionalism are too hard to forgo ?

[narenderkharb]

Very important point
KANISHKA STARTING SAKA ERA Which shows Kanishka was saka

[sktewatia]

dnt u notice even budha was saka. often he is called sakya/saka muni. why kanishka, harsha, asoka were getting converted to budhism. even samudragupta (a genious versatile king of indian history) was proud of his mother. who was lichhavi i.e. from budha's clan. jats provided these 4 stable dynasties to our country. all like sakas the most just people. even vikramaditya was the most just king ever known in indian history. he was the king who braught fame to indian history as the golden period.

see the traditions of their armies; long boots and loose coat.


whether guptas were copying sakas? may be yes or no! but guptas were following their own traditions of jats.

see budha's pravachans: "hey anand jab tak ye malla (mull/mullick jats) stop infighting amongst themselves, koi in ka udhhar nahin kar sakta"

[narenderkharb]

For our religion we have Akhara in almost every village where yogi(Nath or Naga) baba stays . Most of them follow BABA GORAKHNATH who lived near NEPAL.We observe similarity between these Sadhus and Bodh Bikshus. Both live the same way eat by Biksha do yoga and tantra and their emphasis is on MOKSHA NOT savarga.They hardly follow Santan dharam and karam kand.I wonder wether our Babas and Bodhs are one and the same thing or some differences might have been of minor consequences,or are we still bodhs in a practical way.Recentely some mandirs are coming in villages inside Akhara due to moderen influence.Any way our religion has been very different from practices where God is pleased by offering items via agni, brahmin or sacrifice.

[smeker]

Dear Sampuran,
Are i know 3 schools of bible interpretation who doesnt accept interpretation that world is 6000-7500 years old.
Trying to convert(thats mean telling the true about the world)is not imoral.Our parents trying to convert us from our wrong acts every day-they know better LOL.Your opinion is influence by post-modernism (exist only subjectiv and relative true and the true is establish by culture)who is ilogic.
To tell you about brahmins plans to convert the world,or sati rituals? We are not here on religious debates forum.
I use only standard cronology ,not vedic,biblic quranic cronology.
Are you a brahmin misionar?

[smeker]

Knowing about jats from India is like visiting your brothers,knowing about jats from around the world is like visiting your cousins.
Jats around the world still have similar behaviours iven they was splited long time ago.Some habits change very hard.
Acording to Sampuram are 4 billion jats in the world today.This cant be,and can be proved.
Are only a couple of nations that have heavy genetic jats elements.In general are tall nations ,over 1,77 -1,78 tall.The talest groups in the world are iranians and subsaharian africans. However the tallness is also influence by good or stressfull life.But genetic factor seem to be dominant.
See tallness of nations on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_height

[narenderkharb]

Dear Soko
you are right we are here for jats not for religion. Jats consider religion as a way to do good deeds and be endear themselves to almighty. Basically Jats beleve that all religions are just different ways for the same cause.Hindhu religion in itself have so many ways.Best thing about this religion is not rigid,pls don't assosiate Sati etc. with this religion. We feel the same about you when u said visiting brothers.In fact I can say many doubt ur photo since you can be immidiately identified as a jat from HARYANA.

[parda]

dnt u notice even budha was saka. often he is called sakya/saka muni. why kanishka, harsha, asoka were getting converted to budhism. even samudragupta (a genious versatile king of indian history) was proud of his mother. who was lichhavi i.e. from budha's clan. jats provided these 4 stable dynasties to our country. all like sakas the most just people. even vikramaditya was the most just king ever known in indian history. he was the king who braught fame to indian history as the golden period.

see the traditions of their armies; long boots and loose coat.


whether guptas were copying sakas? may be yes or no! but guptas were following their own traditions of jats.

see budha's pravachans: "hey anand jab tak ye malla (mull/mullick jats) stop infighting amongst themselves, koi in ka udhhar nahin kar sakta"

bhai sahab.
Buddha's other name sakyamuni is not associated with sakyas or scythians but a tree which is found commonly in that area. I don't know in what way but he was not a saka.
If you look at ancient picturizations of buddha you will see mongolian features.
vikramditya of gupta dynasty? when did he become a jat?
So kaniskha started saka era and therefore he was a jat?
Kamaaal kar diya bhai logoon ne. Logic/reasoning ke aise ke taise kar dee.
Bhaad meein jayee science. Aaise ke taise hoo science ke kitaboon ke. Aag laago do unko, raddi mein beech dallo unko. Pata naheen yeh aap sabke theories padkee muzhe aisa kahanee ka zee sa aa gaaaya.:rolleyes:

[narenderkharb]

this Tewatia and pardeep looks two faces of the same coin(non jat).First bowl and then bat yourself.Tere...Khel Dekh...ke ..Zee sa aa gaaaya.

[smeker]

The first sculptures of Budha apear 500 years after his death. Budha was from a kshatrya cast .He wear a tuft of hair on his head ,also a custom of the samurai,the mots(in fact mots mean tuft) of Apusen mountains in Romania,the getian who wear this tuft under their pointed caps;also is a sikh turban that have the same tuft.Exist a sarmatian tribe call the budini(enlighted ones),and other scitian and sarmatian tribes,like costoboces(shining ones),dacii mari(powerfull ones) that use the description for them self as shining,great,beautiful,victorios ones.However name Budha is,like we know,give for spiritual reasons.The region were Budha was born is heavy mixed whit mongolic nepalese.

[sktewatia]

I read this book about 25 years back when I used 2 b a student at IIT delhi. It was amazingly beautiful work which the history researchers world over in general and indian in particular should have followed. A leading english newspaper of that time quoted it as "certainly the book is going to provide a hot trail to the researchers in history". Before that one Ram Saroop Joon of Noon Majra village of Rohtak also wrote the similar facts but dahiya extended his work with marvellous authentic proofs.

Later, I had an opportunity to write some history articles "Origin of Tewatia Jats" (history of tewatia clan/gotra on this jatland is originally taken from my article only) in some books where he was also writing (Jats: Their Roots").

He traces the origin of Jats some where above the caspian sea.

n mentions many jat tribes in rigveda. where jat word is more prominent than aryan. In rigveda Indra is called the "Jatau Jatan" meaning "jat of jats", jaton ka jat i.e. "king of kings"

Samuran Singh ji in your thread on hinduism posted to Soka, somewhere it is mentined that Aryan word in rigveda is mentioned 36 times. I feel that Jat word is mentioned much more than that.

Plz dont misunderstand me. Its true that India always remained a wonder for the world. Plz read the book by A L Basham "The Wonder That was India". Romila Thapar has quoted him many times. I'd been in JNU also in 1986-87. Though science student but still curious of history.

[sktewatia]

I read this book about 25 years back when I used 2 b a student at IIT delhi. It was amazingly beautiful work which the history researchers world over in general and indian in particular should have followed. A leading english newspaper of that time quoted it as "certainly the book is going to provide a hot trail to the researchers in history". Before that one Ram Saroop Joon of Noon Majra village of Rohtak also wrote the similar facts but dahiya extended his work with marvellous authentic proofs.

Later, I had an opportunity to write some history articles "Origin of Tewatia Jats" (history of tewatia clan/gotra on this jatland is originally taken from my article only) in some books where he was also writing (Jats: Their Roots").

He traces the origin of Jats some where above the caspian sea.

n mentions many jat tribes in rigveda. where jat word is more prominent than aryan. In rigveda Indra is called the "Jatau Jatan" meaning "jat of jats", jaton ka jat i.e. "king of kings"

Samuran Singh ji in your thread on hinduism posted to Soka, somewhere it is mentined that Aryan word in rigveda is mentioned 36 times. I feel that Jat word is mentioned much more than that.

Plz dont misunderstand me. Its true that India always remained a wonder for the world. Plz read the book by A L Basham "The Wonder That was India". Romila Thapar has quoted him many times. I'd been in JNU also in 1986-87. Though science student but still curious of history.

[sktewatia]

all international numerals are arabic numerals n in turn they are indian numerals rather punjabi rather jat numerals taken by arabs from india rather punjab/sindh. Rather arabians called all the indians as Jats (Zotts) only as they encountered mostly jats in trans indus area.

Similarly much of the knowledge by Alexander was taken from Jats/Punjab/India and later he founded Alexanderia University. No doubt India was always hunted n searched for knowledege, wealth, philosophy, soldiers, peace, the best place to live in.....etc. Till today its all indian brain thats being imported and appreciated by USA.

Its not surprising that why invaders, rulers, great robbers, colonizers, monks, peace/war loving people were usually fascinated by India.

[narenderkharb]

It is the great contribution of sh. B.S. Dhaia and Respected Joon saheb that today we know a lot history of jat race.Every jat is indebted to them for their historical efforts.
However the search for history is an ongoing process with new discoveries new chapters are written and age old myths are removed.
I remember Ravi ji quoting that Tod and Cunnigham both found horse and cart but just put cart before the horse, same thing(according to me) happened here also as they pointed about the origins of jats.

They find jats spread over many nations responsible for their history right from mouth of Indus river to caspian sea and many europian nations and concluded that jats came from caspian sea.

Their theory prephas was influnced by many scholars who belived east ward migrations of races,and relative unavailability of data in vedic literature.

However there was no reason available for assuming that we came caspian sea. In fact jats migrated slowly to all these nations

These observations are not any assumptions but based on G ENETIC ANALYSIS based on dna analysis,which shows greater variety of chromosomal markings which slowly became rarer as we moved towards west proving that migration jat race is from east to west and not vice versa.recent papers by calcutta stastical institute shows almost negligible genetic contribution from centeral asia.Even vedic culture people except brahaman,s gene spread is restricted to hilly areas inhimalays and not in jat land NW India.

Jats our Fore fathers, we feel proud have a much more glorios history than even anticipated by historians like Dhaia saheb.

Now with latest discoveries the theory about the antiquity of people of Indus valley is much more clear. It has completely demolished the theories of Asko Parpola of dravidian origins of these people and Witzel theory of Austro Asiatic origin. These discoveries has concusively proved the invasion of Vedic culture(Bharaminism) from Tajikstan (Pamirs) and their spread later to gangatic valley.This clearly proves that jats were the original inhabitants of this countary and brahman slowly came afterwards and spread slowly towards gangatic valley and south(POLARITY AND TEPOLARITY OF Y- CHROMOSOMAL DISTRIBUTION STUDIES BY INDIAN AND INTRNATIONAL SCIENTISTS) As they entered this mystic land they adopted the gods of this(SHIVA GNESHAetc. leaving their gods Mitra VARUNA ETC.) land customs as well as dialects of these people.However they preserve their sanskrit hymens which was an economical necessity and the tradition of writing literature in this secertive language which was never the language of commoan man at any point of time in India . people other than Brahmans were dissuaded from even knowing this language for this economical reason only.Since this literature was preserved, when some one search history via this literature he finds a totally cloured version.Jats retained their democratic traditions their hold over most fertle land in the world,they gave concept of atama moksha etc. to these people and so much more that we can keep on writing and reciving very less from them.However their Varna system was an anathema to them who belived in equality an diginity of labour as a result vedic brahmana developed an apathy for them

DNA analysis has also demolished certain myths about some casts like Rajputs claiming to be of this vedic culture Aryans when they found this group distinct from vedic people again varifying this well known secreat that it is a hetrogeneous group of jats gujjars and huns etc.However their beliefs are their we don't want to disturb them.

I would like my brothers to search our roots which are right here in this mystic holy land and not in far away lands.

[narenderkharb]

Tajikhstan thoug a muslim nation is not searching its ancestory to arabic lands.Finding this nation as the original homeland of vedic culture people they are paying a homage to their ancestors by celebrating year 2006 as the ARYAN YEAR.

[anjuliedalal]

Dear Soko Norman,
You know it is so nice to hear of a jat or get from another part of the world. When you said roman and indian scholars have reached to the same conclusions about our ancestory... that made me think.. maybe there is something about the jat movement.
You said that in your schools there was atleast a page about get history. Not bad, that is a good begining. There is some acknowledgement. Here in America, when we learn about European history there is no mention of a jat or get ancestory.
You look punjabi or haryana. Might want to look into it.
By the way, are gypsies jats too. In your part of the world what do they say about that.