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ishwarlamba
October 13th, 2004, 08:05 AM
Dear all,
In Manusmarti it is written present creation started from mansrower lake in Tibet.
In none of our scriptures is written, Aryans came from outside.
It was all propagated by Britishers that Aryans come from other countries to make us slave.
Please refer following book on this issue

The Myth of Aryan Invasions of India
by M. Lal Goel, PhD
University of West Florida
lgoel@uwf.edu

The often perceived and frequently quoted racial division in India between the fairer Aryan North and the darker Dravidian South is pernicious and dangerous. The British gave currency to this view of racial divide in India. It was part of their "divide and rule" strategy. The Northern people in India got especially sucked into this interpretation of history. It made the "Aryan" northerners appear racially closer to the white races of Europe. This viewpoint is also popular in Sri Lanka, where the Singhalese majority believe that they are descendants of Aryans from the North of India and that Tamils of Sri Lanka are not.

New interpretations of ancient Indian history cast a serious doubt that Aryans entered India from the outside, and that the Dravidian people were the conquered races, and further that the Dravidians were pushed down south by the invading Aryans.

Sri Aurobindo debunked this theory of a racial division between the North and South in India. Sri Aurobindo is the great light that blazed across the Indian horizon during the first half of the twentieth century (1872-1950). He was a historian, a philosopher, a poet, a mystic, a yogi, a freedom fighter, and a scholar. Sri Aurobindo has written commentaries on the Vedas, the Upanishads and the Bhagavad Gita. Therefore, when Sri Aurobindo speaks, we listen.

For anyone who seriously wishes to pursue the topic of north-south division in India, I recommend K. D. Sethna's The Problem of Aryan Origins (New Delhi: Aditya Prakashan, 1980 and 1992). Sethna (also known as Amal Kiran) is a distinguished disciple of the teachings of Sri Aurobindo. Also recommended is Francis Gautier's Rewriting Indian History (New Delhi, Vikas, 1996).

Aryans and Dravidians are related from days of antiquity. They are not separate races, as the British would have us believe. Contrary to the common view, the languages of the north and south are related. A large part of the vocabulary of the South Indian languages (Tamil, Kannada, Telugu, Malayalam) is derived from Sanskrit.

Hindus collectively have no racial memory that an Aryan invasion of India took place around 1,500 B.C., contrary to what modern history teaches. None of the Hindu scriptures describe that a conquest of India occurred in ancient times. Surely the extensive Hindu scriptures would narrate the story of invasions of India, if indeed they happened. Some people misread Ramayana as describing an invasion of the South from the North. Ravana, the vanquished king from the South is not described anywhere in the Ramayana as belonging to an alien or an inferior racial stock. Ravana was indeed a scholar of the Vedas ( a Chaturvedi) and belonged to the same cultural group as the victorious Rama.

People who give credence to an Aryan invasion of India cite archeological evidence as proof of their point of view. Among the thousands of clay seals that have been found in the region of Harappa and Mohenjo-Daro (the sites of the Indus Valley Civilization, supposedly the home originally of the Dravidian people), no seals depict the horse or the wheel. In contrast, Aryans were known to have horses and used the chariot. They used the horse and the chariot to subdue natives of the Indus Valley. Sethna disputes this evidence. Some seals depicting the wheel have indeed been discovered at the Harappan archeological sites. The wheel was known to the people of the Indus Valley.

Francois Gautier cites recent research which indicates that the script on the Indus seals is of Sanskrit lineage. This proves that the people of Harappa belonged to a much older Vedic age.

An invasion of India from the outside around 1,500 B. C. did not occur. People of North and South in India have lived together as one group since antiquity. This is Sethna's overall conclusion. People who talk of an Aryan conquest of India parrot the 19th century British viewpoint.

Recent scholarship does not deny that the people in India had relations with other Indo-European people in Asia and Europe. There was a belt stretching from India to the Mediterranean inhabited by a people who spoke related languages, known as the Indo-European languages. Sanskrit is the oldest known language in this family and may appropriately be called as the Mother of Indo-European languages.

Those who seek to foster the unity of India need to emphasize the unity of India, not its division. In the great cultural and religious history of India, important contributions have come from every region in the nation. The vast Ganga-Jamuna plain in the North of India is indeed the original heartland of Hinduism. This is the seat of Ayodhya (Bihar), Mathura and Vrindavan (UP), Kurukshetra (Haryana), and Indraprasatha (Delhi). The Great Mahabharata war was fought in the northern plains.

The eighth to thirteenth century Hindu revival movement originated in the South. Sankaracharya (from Kerala) defeated Buddhists in argumentation and laid the foundation of modern day Hinduism. Ramanuja (Tamilnad) and Madhava (Kannada) popularized the Bhakti movement. Sankara and Ramanuja traveled to many parts of India to establish centers of teaching and learning. Sankara wrote extensive commentaries on Brahma Sutras, Upanishads and the Bhagavad Gita, which are read all over the country.

Chaitanya Mahaprabhu from Bengal, Mirabai from Rajasthan, Tulsidas from U.P, Nanak from Punjab, Jnaneshwar from Maharashtra, Jaideva (author of Gita Govinda) from Orissa, have all contributed to Hindu religion.

The four Tirathas and Dhams ( Badri Nath, Rameshwaram, Puri, Dwarka) are located in four corners of India, north, south, east and west. Every pious Hindu aspires to visit the four Dhams in one's lifetime.

Narrow minded and ignorant Indians who equate Hinduism as belonging to one particular region of the country do disservice to the cause of a united India.

Some narrow-minded Hindus equate Hinduism with the North and with Hindi language. This viewpoint grows out of ignorance. Be it noted that Sanskrit language originally did not have its own script. It was written in various local scripts. Thus it used a variety of scripts, not Devanagri script alone. This information is attributed to the authority of Swami Dayananda Saraswati, founder of Arsha Vidya Gurukulum in Pennsylvania. Swami Dayananda is a first-rate Sanskrit scholar.

These views are of the author and do not reflect those of any institution or the university.

satbir_grewal
October 13th, 2004, 04:23 PM
Ishwar ji,

When we speak of collective Hindu memory, Max Muller has interpolated that the Ramayana is a semi myth woven by the Hindu psyche to justify the invasion of the Indian subcontinent by the Aryans wherein Rama, a very noble Aryan is wronged by the vicious Dasu God, Ravana when he kidnaps his wife Sita. Rama then embarks on a righteous mission to retrieve his wife and salvage Aryan honour by vanquishing the Dasu empire in Lanka.

Mahabharata is an inter-tribal rivalry between various Aryan tribes for the control of the fertile alluvial plains of Aryavrat or modern day Punjab and Haryana. Now, Max Muller was the one who took a lot of pain and put in a lot of hardwork to translate the Vedas from Sanskrit to German / English. He's the one who first noticed the linguistic similarities between Sanskrit and other western languages like Latin, German and English thereby giving birth to the idea of an Indo-European language which includes Iranian as well.

Therefore, relying on swamis and other obscure "literary sources" may not be a very good idea. The aim is not to hurt anybody's religious sentiments but practicality and logic is the bedrock of all serious discussions. Since this topic involves religion, I'd like to leave it at that.

Regards.

abhishek
October 13th, 2004, 08:07 PM
Satbir Grewal (Oct 13, 2004 06:55 a.m.):
. Now, Max Muller was the one who took a lot of pain and put in a lot of hardwork to translate the Vedas from Sanskrit to German / English. H

Regards.

Don't you think you are giving too much credit to Friedrich Max Müller ? All he did was to interpret indian history in a way which suited his english pay masters´ designs. Atleast I find it atrocious the way Max Müller is revered in India.

anilkc
October 13th, 2004, 08:30 PM
do we know that manusmiriti and other scriptures are not aryan imports? hindu culture itself is not an aryan import? anyway whats a hindu and how can we differentiate it from other?

satbir_grewal
October 13th, 2004, 08:37 PM
Abhishek,

There's no denying the fact that there might've been an agenda in Max Mueller's theories but we certainly can't deny him the credit for the painstaking work of translating the Vedas. Anyhow, do we have any indigenous person worth mentioning who can hold his own against Max Mueller. The problem is we don't have any serious historian in this particular department. All we have is swamis, fly by night authors and upstarts who have their own mythological axe to grind. It is indeed a shame for us Indians that foreigners had to come and bring out our ancient history for us.

Regards.

abhishek
October 14th, 2004, 12:30 AM
Satbir Grewal (Oct 13, 2004 11:07 a.m.):
. It is indeed a shame for us Indians that foreigners had to come and bring out our ancient history for us.

Regards.

History can never be free of ideologies. The way a historian thinks or believes will be reflected in what he writes or what he observes. It is a bare fact, we may yearn for objectivity but however we may try prejudices creep in. And if that is the case then why not indians write their own history. We don´t need a white man to tell us about our past, of all someone whose ideas were ideological breeding grounds for nazism!!

ravichaudhary
October 14th, 2004, 01:16 AM
Satbir Grewal (Oct 13, 2004 11:07 a.m.):
Abhishek,

There's no denying the fact that there might've been an agenda in Max Mueller's theories but we certainly can't deny him the credit for the painstaking work of translating the Vedas. Anyhow, do we have any indigenous person worth mentioning who can hold his own against Max Mueller. The problem is we don't have any serious historian in this particular department. All we have is swamis, fly by night authors and upstarts who have their own mythological axe to grind. It is indeed a shame for us Indians that foreigners had to come and bring out our ancient history for us.

Regards.

****************
Satbir

Actually Max Mueller's work was unashamedly to advance the cause of christianity, and hence denigration of any Indian work was required.

So any translation had that end in mind, and simply for that very reason of bias, any work of Max Mueller and co, should be treated with extreme caution.

Mr Dhama puts it very concisely and precisely.


To realize how effective Mueller , and his companions were, look how you refer to our learned scholars:

"All we have is swamis, fly by night authors and upstarts who have their own mythological axe to grind. "

So any of our indigenous work is ""mythology, and by fly by night people"

No offence intended, but is there not something wrong with this kind of 'thinking', when you automaticaly trash our domestic indian versions ??

Were our ancestors that unlearned and stupid ???

I for one do not think so!

Please go through the Yahoo Jathistory group's archives or these archives.

if you are objective, you will end up with a very different conclusion, from the one you have now

Best regards

Ravi

ishwarlamba
October 14th, 2004, 08:00 AM
Satbir Ji,
Problem is we do not read our scriptures and even history books written by our own people. We too much depend on writers other than Indian.
I do not know how much you have read about Swami Dayanand and his work. Please read the followings:
1. Life of Swami Dayanand Saraswati by Pandit Lekhram.
2. Satyarth Prakash by Swami Dayanand Saraswati
3. Rigvedadi Pashya Bhumika by Swami Dayanand Saraswati.
These books u can get from a bookshop in any town of Haryana

In the third book swami ji has explained what is in Vedas and how to interepret the.

He had wriiten three letters to Prof Maxmular but no reply from him.

Many things are required to interpret Vedas.
1. U need Panini grammer
2. U read Nighantu the encyclopedia of Vedic grammer
3. Vedas have no history in it
Regards
------------------------------------------------
Satbir Grewal (Oct 13, 2004 06:55 a.m.):
Ishwar ji,

When we speak of collective Hindu memory, Max Muller has interpolated that the Ramayana is a semi myth woven by the Hindu psyche to justify the invasion of the Indian subcontinent by the Aryans wherein Rama, a very noble Aryan is wronged by the vicious Dasu God, Ravana when he kidnaps his wife Sita. Rama then embarks on a righteous mission to retrieve his wife and salvage Aryan honour by vanquishing the Dasu empire in Lanka.

Mahabharata is an inter-tribal rivalry between various Aryan tribes for the control of the fertile alluvial plains of Aryavrat or modern day Punjab and Haryana. Now, Max Muller was the one who took a lot of pain and put in a lot of hardwork to translate the Vedas from Sanskrit to German / English. He's the one who first noticed the linguistic similarities between Sanskrit and other western languages like Latin, German and English thereby giving birth to the idea of an Indo-European language which includes Iranian as well.

Therefore, relying on swamis and other obscure "literary sources" may not be a very good idea. The aim is not to hurt anybody's religious sentiments but practicality and logic is the bedrock of all serious discussions. Since this topic involves religion, I'd like to leave it at that.

Regards.

satbir_grewal
October 14th, 2004, 08:15 PM
Ishwar ji,

There is no history in the vedas but they are replete with references to animals and trees which were not found in India but were present in Central Asia. This is especially true of the Rig Veda and moreover the Iranians or the Asuras as they were referred to in the early Vedic period are an offshoot of the same Aryan wave which swept into north India. The Indian wave was called the Devas by the Iranian Aryans. Devas and Asuras were arch rivals inspite of being from the same racial stock and there are derogatory and mutually antagonistic references to each other in their respective texts i.e. the Rig Veda and the Zand Avesta. Now, this is history and not mythology. Have you heard of the crack pot ideas of Bal Gangadhar Tilak who says the Aryans are from the Arctic. Things can't get more preposterous, incredulous and hilarious, can they ?

Anyways, having said that, had the Aryans originated in India, the Iranian texts would've mentioned as much. Leaving the documentary proof aside for a moment, we can see for ourselves the stark racial/ethnic differences between say the Kashmiris and a tribal from Jharkhand or for that matter a Tamil from down south. Also, one can't help but notice the racial dissimilarities between a Jat from the North and a Mizo from the East.

So, come on, let's not delude ourselves and close our eyes to ideas we don't prefer. Linguistically, Sanskrit is much closer to Latin than to say, a Dravidian language like Malyalam. Such stark ethnic and lingual contrasts within a few thousand kilometres is also a good enough proof to hint at repeated invasions of North Western India by the Aryans, Scythians, Mongols, Arabs, Turks and Huns. I'm not propagating any theory here, I'm just putting a few facts across for all to decide.

Regards.

ishwarlamba
October 15th, 2004, 04:00 AM
Satbir Ji,
Thanks for you reply.
I read Vedas, I will lbe very happy to know which mantras of Vedas u are quoting with references to animals and trees which were not found in India but were present in Central Asia.
waiting for your reply
regards
---------------------------------------
Satbir Grewal (Oct 14, 2004 10:47 a.m.):
Ishwar ji,

There is no history in the vedas but they are replete with references to animals and trees which were not found in India but were present in Central Asia. This is especially true of the Rig Veda and moreover the Iranians or the Asuras as they were referred to in the early Vedic period are an offshoot of the same Aryan wave which swept into north India. The Indian wave was called the Devas by the Iranian Aryans. Devas and Asuras were arch rivals inspite of being from the same racial stock and there are derogatory and mutually antagonistic references to each other in their respective texts i.e. the Rig Veda and the Zand Avesta. Now, this is history and not mythology. Have you heard of the crack pot ideas of Bal Gangadhar Tilak who says the Aryans are from the Arctic. Things can't get more preposterous, incredulous and hilarious, can they ?

Anyways, having said that, had the Aryans originated in India, the Iranian texts would've mentioned as much. Leaving the documentary proof aside for a moment, we can see for ourselves the stark racial/ethnic differences between say the Kashmiris and a tribal from Jharkhand or for that matter a Tamil from down south. Also, one can't help but notice the racial dissimilarities between a Jat from the North and a Mizo from the East.

So, come on, let's not delude ourselves and close our eyes to ideas we don't prefer. Linguistically, Sanskrit is much closer to Latin than to say, a Dravidian language like Malyalam. Such stark ethnic and lingual contrasts within a few thousand kilometres is also a good enough proof to hint at repeated invasions of North Western India by the Aryans, Scythians, Mongols, Arabs, Turks and Huns. I'm not propagating any theory here, I'm just putting a few facts across for all to decide.

Regards.

satbir_grewal
October 15th, 2004, 07:55 AM
a 2001 examination of male Y-DNA by Indian and American scientists shows that higher castes are genetically closer to Europeans than are individuals from lower castes, whose genetic profiles are closer to those of other Asians. This evidence obviously strongly supports the hypothesis of the arrival of Indo-European outsiders, as it is supposed the caste system was an attempt by these predominately male arrivals to keep themselves separate from the native population. Tribal people from the south of India, which would have remained apart from any northern incursion, are also geneticaly closer to those of lower caste origin. These results are part of the ongoing interest in examinations of genetic heritage and will become more precise as more studies are done. [2]

Linguists have several rules of thumb they use to gauge the place of origin of a family. One is that the area of highest linguistic diversity of a language family is usually fairly close to the area of its origin; thus, for example, while most speakers of Germanic languages live in the United States, the highest diversity of Germanic languages is found in northern Europe. By this criterion, India seems to be an exceedingly unlikely candidate for the origin of the Indo-European languages - it has only one Indo-European subfamily, Indo-Aryan, not counting recent introductions of European languages - and eastern Europe appears much more promising; conversely, the highest diversity in Dravidian is found among its northern branches. Another is that the earliest members of the family to diverge are usually found near the place of origin; the earliest member of Indo-European to diverge appears to have been the Anatolian languages, as Hittite grammar's many peculiarities (including an animate/inanimate gender system which appears to predate the three-gender system reconstructed for the rest of Indo-European) show. The second major divide is often considered to be the centum/satem divide (a sound shift affecting palatals); both types are found in Europe, but only satem languages appear to be found in India (with the possible exception of Bangani; see below.) For reasons such as these, most linguists believe Indo-European to have originated somewhere around the Black Sea; a favorite candidate is the Kurgan culture.
the leaders of Persia called themselves Aryans. Darius the Great, King of Persia (521 - 486 BC), in an inscription in Naqsh-e-Rostam (near Shiraz, Iran) proclaims: "I am Darius, the Great King, ..., A Persian, son of a Persian, an Aryan, having Aryan lineage...". The Avesta also records a homeland, called Airyanem Vaejah (The Aryan Expanse), from which the Aryans are supposed to have migrated

Other nearby peoples, notably the Hittites and Mitanni, also seem to have been related to it. That ancestral culture includes the worship of the gods Indra, Varuna, Agni, and Mithra, and the ritualistic use of a hallucinogenic drink called Soma, extracted from an unknown plant. However, as groups separated and migrated, their religions changed. Eventually the Persian Zoroastrian and Indian Vedic faiths emerged from the primal Aryan belief-system, and the ancestral Aryan gods gave rise to different pantheons

The Indo-European languages include some 150 languages spoken by about three billion people, including most of the major language families of Europe and western Asia, which belong to a single superfamily. Popular languages in this superfamily include English, Spanish, French, Portuguese, German, Italian, Russian, Farsi, Hindi, Punjabi, and Urdu.
1. redirect Template:Indo-European

The possibility of common origin of these disparate tongues was first proposed by Sir William Jones, who noticed similarities between four of the oldest languages known in his time, Latin, Greek, Sanskrit, and Persian. Systematic comparison of these and other old languages conducted by Franz Bopp supported this theory. In the 19th century, scholars used to call the group "Indo-Germanic languages" or sometimes "Aryan". However when it became apparent that the connection is relevant to most of Europe's languages, the name was expanded to Indo-European. An example of this was the strong similarity discovered between Sanskrit and older spoken dialects of Lithuanian.
The common ancestral (reconstructed) language is called Proto-Indo-European (PIE). There is disagreement as to the original geographic location (the so-called "Urheimat" or "original homeland"), where it originated from, with Armenia, the area to the north or west of the Black Sea, or Anatolia itself[1]
The various subgroups of the Indo-European family include:
• Indo-Iranian languages
• Italic languages (including Latin and its descendants, the Romance languages)
• Germanic languages (including English)
• Celtic languages
• Baltic languages
• Slavic languages
• Albanian language, which is often placed with several extinct languages in the Illyrian languages subgroup.
• Thracian language (extinct)
• Dacian language (extinct)
• Phrygian language (extinct language of ancient Phrygia)
• Anatolian languages (extinct, most notable was the language of the Hittites)
• Tocharian languages (extinct tongues of Tocharians)
• Greek languages
• Armenian language
(cf. Satem and Centum languages)
Most spoken European languages belong to the Indo-European superfamily. There are, however, language families which do not. The Finno-Ugric language family, which includes Hungarian, Estonian, Finnish and the languages of the Sami, is an example. The Caucasian language family is another. The Basque language is unusual in that it does not appear to be related to any known languages.


This religion may have had a pantheon of gods among whom the chief god was named: *Dyeus Pater¹ from which we know Zeus, Jupiter, Dyaus Pita, Dievs, Tiwat and Tyr (cf. the alternative forms Dias, in Greek, and Tiwaz in Germanic).
It may also have included a sky god whom we know as Varuna and Uranos.
There also seems to have been a god of thunder, whom we know, with various etymologies, as Thor, Taranis, Tarhunt, Perun, Perkunas and Indra.
A possible goddess of dawn, *aus-os-, seems to appear in Greek mythology as Eos, in Rome as Aurora, in Germanic mythology as Eostre, in Baltic mythology as Ausra, and in Hinduism as Ushas.
They may have distinguished between different races of gods (Jotuns, Titans), and (Asa, Asura, Ahura).
They seem to have had a class of Shamans as testified by the later existence of Druids and Brahmins. The Germanic peoples were an exception in having relegated this role to women, the Volvas (see also witches).
• *ghosti, which concerned mutual obligations between people and between worshipers and gods, and from which guest and host are derived.
• *artus, which concerned destiny and the order of the world. From this word are derived the Vedic rta, and the Germanic wyrd (see Urd).

ravichaudhary
October 16th, 2004, 01:48 AM
That DNA study, bamzad has been debunked .

Why do not answere Mr Lamba's question, and mine

rather than all this cut and pate ?

satbir_grewal
October 16th, 2004, 06:03 PM
Ravi,

I'll certainly answer Ishwar ji's question but I haven't been able to make out what is it that you want to know ? By the way, who has debunked the DNA theory ? You. Grrrrrrreattttt.

Coming to the cut and paste, mine is nothing compared to your's on Jattworld.com. Moreover, if a cut and paste job can enlighten you in any manner, it'll have served it's purpose. Let's have some really original ideas flowing from you.... We're waiting eagerly. I haven't heard a bit of sense from you ever since I've come to this site. We'll all appreciate it if you can contribute gainfully to this site rather than wasting everybody's time because you evidently don't value your's.

Cheers.

lrburdak
October 27th, 2004, 04:02 PM
Lamba ji and Sunny ji Namaskar.

It seems that we have moved away from the theme of the thread.
Webster's 1913 Dictionary has given definition and place of origin of Aryans as under-
"Ar"yan\ ([aum]r"yan or [a^]r"[i^]*an), n. [Skr. [=a]rya
excellent, honorable; akin to the name of the country Iran,
and perh. to Erin, Ireland, and the early name of this
people, at least in Asia.]
1. One of a primitive people supposed to have lived in
prehistoric times, in Central Asia, east of the Caspian
Sea, and north of the Hindoo Koosh and Paropamisan
Mountains, and to have been the stock from which sprang
the Hindoo, Persian, Greek, Latin, Celtic, Teutonic,
Slavonic, and other races; one of that ethnological
division of mankind called also Indo-European or
Indo-Germanic."
Are there strong evidences which prove that Aryans moved from India? Normally pastoral people have been moving from colder to hotter areas in search of grasslands for their animals. We can take evidences from some birds also which migrate from Siberia to India. The most common example is SIBERIAN CRANE.
This bird "SIBERIAN CRANE" moves every year during winters from Siberia to India. It stays in India during winter and returns back to Siberia after it.

regards,

ishwarlamba
November 3rd, 2004, 02:28 AM
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20041103/chd.htm

Invasion of Aryans a presumption: expert
Chitleen K. Sethi
Tribune News Service

Chandigarh, November 2
The latest to join the Out-of-Africa group of anthropologists is Dr P. Raghavan, a paleontologist working at Australian National University. Simply put, the findings of his recent studies of the human crania have shown that we, the Indians, are the ancestors of at least two of the four major group of races-the Caucasoid and Australoid.

A PhD from the Department of Anthropology, Panjab University, Dr Raghavan's discovery has once again put on its head the age old theory of the African origin of the four races.

“The old gang propounded that the four major races originated in the African continent in different geographical zones. However, my work supports the Out of Africa theory. Based on osteogenetic evidence available with us, we have come to the conclusion that the Caucasoid and Australoid races originated from a human gene slit in India 1.2 lakh years ago”, he said.

Dr Raghavan’s work is part of an on-going Australian Research Council’s project on ‘Contributions of South Asia to the peopling of Australasia’. “The data I have gathered from human crania provides evidence that supports my hypothesis that people from the North West India (Punjabis and Haryanavis) stand between Caucasoids (Europeans and Middle East settlers) and Australoids (Australian aborigines). My results also question the tenability of the invasion of the Aryans explaining the advent of the Caucasians in India. The invasion of the Aryans is merely a historical presumption that has no scientific basis,” he pointed out.

“Primarily, we all belong to the sub-set of African archaic Homo sapiens but originated from a well defined Indian ancestor as a result of a secondary two-way split episode followed by the waves of migration in opposite directions.

The Caucasoids migrated west 50,000 years ago and Australoids migrated to the South East 70,000 Years B.P. The third split also resulted in the origins of the Mongoloid race much later, some where far off northern Himalayas.”

Stating that he would be now focusing on South India, Dr Raghavan pointed out, “I am expecting to discover many exciting results from this research, the results of which are coming close to Professor Stephen Oppenheimer’s data on mitochondrial DNA-Y chromosome studies. Further investigations in South India will complete the work I have been doing on the story of human origins.”

The only Asian to be awarded Australian citizenship for his work, Dr Raghavan is, however, bitter about his parent department.

“I requested PU to allow me to study skulls and other skeletal materail they have here but they refused stating they had no such material at all”, he said.

Dr P. Raghavan

ratananmol
November 6th, 2004, 11:22 AM
"The Great Mahabharata war was fought in the northern plains."
any war that caused a decline could not have been "GREAT"; maybe it was grand and devastating.it is good to know the theme and various views posted on it.
anmol.

ishwarlamba
November 12th, 2004, 02:18 AM
Another article to support my view
--------------------------------
Respected members of Hinduism_Environment, Hinduism of Nepal and Arya
Samaj online,
Namaskar!
An interesting article debunking the myth of invasion on India by
outsiders to establish "Aryan race" was posted on the website KPandit by
Shri Rabinder Koul. Since this information is of vital interest to
every Hindu wherever he may be located presently, I thought it fit to
send it to you.
It is my good fortune to be able to act like a messenger from one site
to another so that good things for the "common (Hindu) weal" are not
done/discovered in isolation
With regards,
Avtar Krishen Kaul
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:05:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Rabinder Koul <arrk00@ameritech.net>
Subject: DNA refutes AIT - Part 1

Message: 3
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 21:41:12 -0500
From: "G.SUBRAMANIAM" <gsubrec@comcast.net>
Subject: DNA refutes AIT - Part 1

Mainly quotes from Stephen Oppenheimers latest book " The Real Eve"
Available at Amazon

Taken from my thread at India-Forum

1.
This is a recent book sold in Amazon, showing the latest DNA research
Some clear points in this book
So such thing as Aryan Invasion of India
Next ALL non-African humans resided in India from 85k to 60k years ago
The root DNA for all non-africans is in India

2. The real Eve"
by Stephen Oppenheimer

Available at Amazon

DNA shows that the non-african world was colonised by different waves
of emigrants from India

He has analysed both maternal DNA ( mitochondrial ) and Paternal DNA,
the Y chromosome

There is a genetic link indeed between Europe and north west India
However, the DNA shows the roots to lie in kashmir and Punjab

The author specifically debunks the Aryan Invasion Theory

3.
Most people say that M17 is the Y chromosome genetic marker showing AIT
in India. But, he clearely demolishes this myth
From the book. Page 116.
QUOTE

South Asia is logically the ultimate origin of M17 and his
ancestors; and sure enough we find highest rates and greatest diversity
of
M17 line in Pakistan, India and eastern Iran and low rates in the
Caucasus. M17 is not only more diverse in south Asia than in Central
Asia, but
diversity characterizes its presence in isolated tribal groups in the
south, thus undermining any theory of M17 as a marker of a "Male Aryan
Invasion" of India. One age estimate for the origin of this line in
India is as much as 51,000 years. All this suggests that M17 could have
found his way initially from India or Pakistan through Kashmir, than via

Central Asia and Russia, before finally comming to Eruope.


4.
The standard theory is that India was empty and got 'invaded' from the
north west
from Central Asian migrants

What is obvious in the book is that thanks to ice ages, outside Africa,
the ONLY place inhabitable during ice ages was India

India got occupied by humans from a coastal route out of Yemen


Then DNA shows that every other non-african area got migrated to by
Indians
either south east to Australia or north west to Middle east and Europe

5.
Page 83

Mitochondrial DNA study

The main African Eve circa 150k years ago is denoted as L

L had several daughters of which a branch of L3 , rooted in Ethiopia
During the ice age circa 85k years ago, the red sea was shallow and the
gulf was above water
A small band of L3 migrated to coastal Yemen and on the beach road and
the first inhabitable non-coastal area was India

L3 then splits into N and M lines
N was born near baluchistan and M deeper in India

Europeans and middle eastern people have no M lines

India has the deepest variety of M lines dated to 75k years
M is found in Central Asia, Australia, New Guinea

Page 87

Europeans came from South asia circa 50k years ago


Page 136
N had a daughter lineage R, born in India 65 K years ago



(R is genetically rooted in India )

R had several daughters


U in India, splitting up into several U lines

U5 is the ancestor of kurds, armenians and basques and dates to 50k
years

U6 migrated to North African coast

R had another daughter HV, dated 40K years ago
and HV migrated to Europe

N had a daughter I , dated 33K years
who migrated to Europe

R had a daughter J/T who migrated out of India
20K years ago

In short the entire maternal DNA of Europe is rooted in India which in
turn is rooted in Africa

7.
Page 178 shows entire global maternal DNA chart

Page 186 shows entire Y chromosome paternal DNA chart

8.
There was an explosion of the Toba volcano in Sumatra, 80k years ago
and the ash cloud was 3 feet thick in India and this caused a huge zone
of extinction which explains the sudden racial difference as we move
from Bengal to Assam

Page 187
The out of Africa Adam, breaks up into 3 paternal lines
YAP, RPSY, and 89

Virtually 97% of Indians are descended from 89

The root for all 3 male lines are in India

Page 192
South Asia is the first homeland for out of Africa humans


All Europeans are descended from various grandsons of 89

9. Oppenheimer's genetic map:

http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/journey/

ishwarlamba
November 12th, 2004, 08:15 AM
Dear Satvir Ji,
I am waiting for your reply please
regards
Ishwar Lamba

------------------------------]
Ravi,

I'll certainly answer Ishwar ji's question but I haven't been able to make out what is it that you want to know ? By the way, who has debunked the DNA theory ? You. Grrrrrrreattttt.

Coming to the cut and paste, mine is nothing compared to your's on Jattworld.com. Moreover, if a cut and paste job can enlighten you in any manner, it'll have served it's purpose. Let's have some really original ideas flowing from you.... We're waiting eagerly. I haven't heard a bit of sense from you ever since I've come to this site. We'll all appreciate it if you can contribute gainfully to this site rather than wasting everybody's time because you evidently don't value your's.

Cheers.