Caste System in Developed Countries?

[dahiyars]

Dear All

Many of us are living in U.S.A, U.K., Canada, Germany etc.. May I know about the various castes of these countries? Does caste system ever exited in these countries?

R.S.Dahiya

[ratananmol]

"Color" is the caste but you can erase the problem of color by your merit and financial standing. In effect, it is possible for an individual to dwarf the disadvantage of color by better education and income which reflects in his living conditions.
I am separting the issue of race and caste in my answer. Sometimes they are easily mixed up. Lerned people know that indians are caucasians and jats get confused with Pakistanis, Iranians or people from middle east as we look different from stereotype "indians" in USA. I have no problems with looking different from rest of indians but a comparison with Arabs is denigrating because I am a "hindu" and my culture rooted in hindu tradition and way of life is an asset in the post 9/11 era. (Iranians are Aryans in descent and look more similar to jats and i have no issues with them except their zeolous espousal of Islam; but they still reflect their old religion and remind us of brutal conversion to islam by their practices here in usa as they celebrate "Navroj" which is a parsi festival.)
The rigid caste system as it exists in India never existed here. And in india too it will have to cease to exist, if we want to move ahead.

[haryanajat]

"Color" is the caste but you can erase the problem of color by your merit and financial standing. In effect, it is possible for an individual to dwarf the disadvantage of color by better education and income which reflects in his living conditions.
I am separting the issue of race and caste in my answer. Sometimes they are easily mixed up.
The rigid caste system as it exists in India never existed here. And in india too it will have to cease to exist, if we want to move ahead.
Really? you can erase the the problem of color through merit and your financial standing? I didn't knew that. I don't think its that simple.
why is that one sees in Indian marriage ads - 1 thing that is very prominent - the mention of one's skin color - white, dark(hello what does dark mean?), wheatish (hello what does wheatish means?). The girl's skin color is very important in India. I think race and caste is very much interrelated. Since caste means color of skin. Funny thing is I have seen brahmins that are of black skin.
What is discrimination of blacks in America and elsewhere in western countries if not a caste system?
Its been here since the white man came. And its still very much here. It does not matter whether the black person is rich or poor. The degree of discrimination obviously decreases if one has money.
A black person in america fares almost like an untouchable in India.
Indians are 100% caucasians? All Indians or some or just a handful? I thought almost all Indians are now mixed.

[shailendra]

Very interesting discussion! I too believe that ther is no catse system per say in the US, but similar phenomena can be attributed to the ‘color’ prejudice here. Whatever one may say or believe the color issue plays a role (however small) in most places in America, and I don’t think it gets washed away easily (though it helps) from one’s financial standing….

But having said that it is also important to note which area you are talking about; For example I am in Florida (and South Florida for that matter) and here there is such a huge sprinkling of Hispanics (Spanish speaking ethnic groups) that a white American is more likely to get discriminated against when it comes to key positions etc! Funny, but true…Cubans lead the way, and then come the other South Americans; Colombia, Brazil, Argentina, Nicaragua, Venezuela etc. etc.

The good news is that most of us Indians get confused with the Hispanics (at least that is what has happened with me most of the time) and I am not complaining therefore for very obvious reasons! Ha! Ha!… :D and have luckily found a prejudice free state (in most ways) where that color factor at least is not playing in the back of one's mind all the time!

Though on the same note it is funny to see a lot of Desi’s changing their names and calling themselves very ‘American’ shorter names (ex. Tom for Gautam, and Jan for Janak etc!) cause one look at them from I guess American eyes and you would think, “You gotta be kidding me!”
The idea behind the name changing ideology is a commendable effort, but can hardly wash away the color of your skin and what you look like and speak as…

Anyways, I think I went on a tangent there (the name game is one of my pet peeves!) :rolleyes:
But I would say that to get a response on the question about a caste system in the United States well, ask the blacks here and you might very well get an acute answer!

[rkumar]

Interesting topic. Here is a link which tells something about caste systems in India and USA and how they are different.

http://www.sulekha.com/expressions/articledesc.asp?cid=86551

Indian society was so evolved and complex that population was divided into professional groupings which slowly became known by castes. It was large scale grouping of all Indians like elements in a periodic table...LOL..very scientific indeed... I don't know how and when castes become lower and higher. Originally there was nothing like higher or lower castes..If one looks at great Indian epics, they were all written by non-brahmans...Balmiki, ved vyas, were both non brahmans and still called Mahrishi...

RK^2

[anujkumar]

Interesting topic. Here is a link which tells something about caste systems in India and USA and how they are different.

http://www.sulekha.com/expressions/articledesc.asp?cid=86551

Indian society was so evolved and complex that population was divided into professional groupings which slowly became known by castes. It was large scale grouping of all Indians like elements in a periodic table...LOL..very scientific indeed... I don't know how and when castes become lower and higher. Originally there was nothing like higher or lower castes..If one looks at great Indian epics, they were all written by non-brahmans...Balmiki, ved vyas, were both non brahmans and still called Mahrishi...

RK^2


Yes!

It's like the brave new world, which became an epic, I mean the novel by Huxley, where people are 'decanted' and trained for specific purposes. That's what they learn all their life and enjoy doing it and be happy for it.

Now, specially if you look at it from the western perspective it looks very ugly. But I think people were happy in that system. It was based on loyalty and destiny.

There used to be pleasant relationship between Jizman and kameen. Kameen is bad word though invented later.

Even today it's the same thing, except some 'show off' equality and moeny being the regulating factor in the employer employee relationship rather than loyalty and centuries of ancenstral history.

[rkumar]

........There used to be pleasant relationship between Jizman and kameen. Kameen is bad word though invented later.

.

I some how had a gut feeling that the two words Jijman and Kameen can not be of Indian origin. So I googled both the words. To my surprise both the words are used in Europe.. Does it meen anything or just a mere coincidence?

http://www.utexas.edu/education/kameen.html

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.palli.ch/~kapeskreyol/atelier/contes/conte_creole72.php&prev=/search%3Fq%3Djijman%2B%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26rls%3DR NWE,RNWE:2004-41,RNWE:en

Jijman means judgement it seems.

RK^2

[anujkumar]

I some how had a gut feeling that the two words Jijman and Kameen can not be of Indian origin. So I googled both the words. To my surprise both the words are used in Europe.. Does it meen anything or just a mere coincidence?

http://www.utexas.edu/education/kameen.html

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.palli.ch/~kapeskreyol/atelier/contes/conte_creole72.php&prev=/search%3Fq%3Djijman%2B%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26rls%3DR NWE,RNWE:2004-41,RNWE:en

Jijman means judgement it seems.

RK^2

May be it is like that but it's hard to imagine European had anything to do with it, British could have been, but these are not english words. They have their own - Sahab - Nokar...stuff.

Kameen, i think is a proper hindi word.. of kamina fame...

Jijman is very technical.. and is no longer used..as i think there is nobody to use it. All the badia, lohar, dhobi, julaha, nai, pandit, have opened their shops... pay as you go system.. These are the one we had in the annual gift system, like in 10-15 years ago. Now they have only nai and lohar and that too under a very "complete" contracts.

Pandat stil uses Jijman.. in the marriages and terami stuff.. So i think that's going to stay for long.

It's funny that Pandit call Jat's jijman.. so that way they lower, but on the other hand they don't share hukkas with Jat's.

Very complex stuff..based on the Western UP system.

[bharatrattan]

Castism needs to be understood, instead of an outright rejection. When we are on the receiving end, the entity is the most evil one and when we are indulging in group behavior, it becomes the most cherished act.
If you observe carefully most of the Jats in the US have a fair chance to leave behind the caste equation and become the free citizens of a true global culture.

Would you call the effort to assemble the clan by AJATA and JATLAND in US castist?
The advantage of one group is taken as disadvantage by other, simply because the parameters have a relative value, which we can not ignore. Would it be really unfair if Jatland.com is cited as an extension of castist mind set of Jats in the cyber era?

If you honestly pore over these issues, many of your questions will be answered.
And to extend further, understanding the human behavior of organization based on color, language, etc should be appreciated as a reality, which nature favors. You have felt the pressure in an alien land, which in many ways is solved by organizing the Jat community in the US.

Instead of using the word Castism, I would prefer ‘human organizational behavior’, a more acceptable term. And the similarity based on all these factors (color, religion, caste etc) tend to happen invariably.

What is more interesting is to analyze the ‘tribal’ similarity as a factor in propagating social group structures. Castism and Racism are not different cousins, because both assume favor for people who seem to be related by genes, or ‘blood relations’. Evolutionary psychologists entertain tribal existence, the most fundamental entity in evolutionary sense. Human intelligence strongly evaluates situation base on the tribal conditions, hence clans have restrained to die out after all these long years we have inhabited earth. We naturally feel more emotional for people who we find are similar to us. The more this similarity is, the more ‘closer’ the person considered. You do not need education to follow this. This is much part of our natural tendency. I am sure many of you have felt it more satisfying to help a fellow Jat than others. Scientist hypothesize these sub-conscious decision are there because the chances of getting a return favor increases. Even emotions support such acts. I still remember one Jat constable’s neonate whom I admitted in the Pediatrics casualty at my Hospital the most gratifying incident during my internship. The child died after the overnight struggle, but the effort was not waste. I almost felt close to them like family. The wife had similar hands like our ‘women’ (the coarse hands of hardworking Jats), the lamented in the same way I have experienced during my tryst with village life. To say that I sub-consciously evaluated the prospects of getting returns is a very intellectual question. For the same reason if a Jat offends you, the disappointment is correspondingly higher, because we expect them to be agreeable. We are helped the most by these ‘castist’ people and also offended by the products of the same equation. I am sure many of you have felt the anguish when a Jat is the first to hurl abuse (or ridicule you, since Jats have the dirtiest habit of teasing, which they fanatically endorse in the name of ‘culture’/Jat humor), and not others.

You would need years of education to truly get rid of this ‘prejudice’, which automatically priorities your interaction with fellow humans. I am sure computer programmers enjoy the real meaning of task priority, when they do build software algorithms. And it’s enjoyed further by people who read about Artificial Intelligence.
There are various ramifications of this tendency to form grouping based on similarity, /closeness by ‘blood factors’. I am sure you have appreciated the sub-groups in Jat villages. The same village has different ‘pana’ and ‘kunba’ and ‘goti’ (based on surnames)
As I said education may weaken this tendency. The more we become informed, the more our thinking becomes refined. You would have very few people like Prof. Birbal Singh, on this group who do not have a problem with baniyas contributing to Jat progress. For the majority, who remain blind/biased towards (and truly speaking, against others), any single word of praise is a threat to there castist existence. What has stopped us to discuss Einstein on this group, or for that so many more obvious things? Does Sir Chotu Ram really compete with icons on a world stage? Posing this question is not an act of ingratitude. I appreciate what he did for us. But does this statement not itself clearly tells, how personal gains are influencing the criterion for praise. So if the scientists say that grouping sub-consciously favors the person, they are not entirely wrong.
Darwin after completing the voyage on Beagle observed so many species, and human tribes, that he concluded:
Hierarchal organization is key to human progress. Societies which don’t specialize do not progress. Tribes and species where division of labor exist, the outcome is more evolved.
(Not the real words, but paraphrasing my recall)

He observed that societies which had slaves for menial labor and monarchs to manage the tribe were more evolved. Such societies had fine arts, music, science etc developed. Instead societies which were truly egalitarian were left to the hunter stage. This was true for most of the hunting tribes, which had no leader, in Africa and Pacific islands.

I would also end my essay on this interesting topic with the caveat, that education does not necessarily erase these grouping factors. It makes our dealing with grouping needs more ‘educated’ or fashionably ‘modern/civilized’). A capable person would find it easier to help people of his group, to which he would be more acceptable. Einstein favored Zionism till end. His selection to help Jews does not undermine his intellectual supremacy in any way.

I hope I have made my point.
Bharat

[haryanajat]

Talking about caste/skin color/racial discrimination Mexico recently introduced stamps marking anniversary(60th?) of its beloved comic book character Memin Pinguin. The character is an african-mexican boy.
As soon as the stamp came out, Americans especially the blacks protested calling the cartoon character derogatory and based on racist stereotypes of blacks.
The Mexicans protested calling attention to America's 400 year old racist treatment of blacks and accusing Americans of double standards. A case of the pot calling the kettle black.
When a young bookseller in Mexico was asked what did he think about the cartoon character, he replied, "I thought Memin Pingin was a Monkey!!!!!!"
We all have racist stereotypes. Sometimes we just don't know that.
There is a story of this character in which the Memin is told blacks don't go to heaven as in religious paintings we don't see any "black angels!" Then Memin thinks that since he is going to hell anyway he can do all mischiefs he can.
Hmm correct - I don't see any Black angels in religious paintings either.

[ratananmol]

Dear Bharat and others:
As you have tried to give us an evolutionary window the issue of why a system which led to progress of human race has evolved into a social problem remains unresolved.
As an economist i tend to not bother too much with the full truth but enough truth to get you thru; it a like the marginal returns from exploration becomes too little or negative beyond a point in a typical inverted convex production curve or the satiation guided utility models developed by economists to characterize the rational behavior in real world.
And i believe that differentiation created on the basis of caste or clans has generaized economic causes which persits but nonetheless tends to pass the phase where the returns are negative or too little for the society; hence it is a social problem. Nobody could stop me from helping my own people but i would think many times over before negating the rewards accruing to a person who may be an outsider. I think what is one's "dharma" becomes crucial in judging and acting in some situations.
Mankind has evolved too much to still rely on the role of diffential behavior (as becomes clearer from your evolutionary perspective) while striving to reach higher. Your gesture of helping the infant at AIIMS was indeed commendable and the "returns" will accrue to you (as per the karma principal).
You may have noticed that I refrain from using the word "jat" and substitute it by "our people/community". This is done with a special reason: in the broad game of numbers we can lose a lot because of the discrimination we could be subjected to by our vulnerability of getting identified and getting conspired against.(This happens to all groups with better economic standing in society). It pays to mute the word "jat" and thus quell the negative unobservables we have no control over; i dont think that it reduces any bit of my identity for my purposes. Just a thing of strategy. Avoid the "J" word and behave like one is cleverer.
Best.

[anujkumar]

100 years from now there would be no Jats no Chamars, there would be just rich and poor.

All the bania, lohar, dhobi, julaha, nai, pandit, have opened their shops... pay as you go system.. These are the one we had in the annual gift system, like in 10-15 years ago. Now they have only nai and lohar and that too under a very "complete" contracts.

Pandat stil uses Jijman.. in the marriages and terami stuff.. So i think that's going to stay for long.

It's funny that Pandit call Jat's jijman.. so that way they lower, but on the other hand they don't share hukkas with Jat's.

Very complex stuff..based on the Western UP system.

Who understood the above? This reflect how fast the case system as defined to be the occupation class system is desolving these day in Jat belt atleast. Reason being development, high mobility and information flow. All thee of which are on the peak at this time in India.

The only major form of caste system that pervails is just the one used to give free moral boost to high caste people - I am ----(high case) and that's what defines me. or the one used lower case people for govenment reservation system, which entails politicians votes.

[vickypanwar]

A system of classifying people into castes/races and other categories certainly exists in the developed world too.

Examples of "skin colour" as a discriminatory factor has been given above. Also popular are discrimination based of religious faiths and belief systems. E.g. Jews (although being white) are still being detested in certain areas. I stumbled upon an article about racial discrimination in the US army sometime back. It was an eye opener.

But in general these distinctions are dissolving. Science has rejected the once held belief of sub-species of homo sapiens. Proponents of this theory wanted to prove that whites are a class superior. The Nazi gas chamber experiment of labeling Jews as "satans" is very famous. A lady even received her PhD for writing the thesis.

The now largely agreed viewpoint about the physical-feature differences in homo sapiens is socio-geographic, habitat based and evolutionary. Once all humanity was classified into three groups - caucasians, negroids and mongoloids - largely based on the skull shape. Over time many sub classes were proposed.

In the US, the race categorisation is largely political rather than scientific. e.g. Hispanics (spanish speaking people of largely mexican or latin american origin) can never be white; Caucasian only means whites of european origin; you'll be a "black" (in some states) for all legal puposes if any of your encestors in the last 4 generations was a negroid; and many more.

[gaganjat]

True

"Color" is the caste but you can erase the problem of color by your merit and financial standing. (Ratan Anmol)

Though on the same note it is funny to see a lot of Desi’s changing their names and calling themselves very ‘American’ shorter names (ex. Tom for Gautam, and Jan for Janak etc!) cause one look at them from I guess American eyes and you would think, “You gotta be kidding me!”
The idea behind the name changing ideology is a commendable effort, but can hardly wash away the color of your skin and what you look like and speak as… (Shailendra)

[vinodks]

Hi,
Rajiv Malhotra's article as suggested by Rajendraji gives pretty good overview of the subject. Inception of castes in ancient cultures and formation of social groups sharing similar interests today can be explained scientifically i.e. on economical and psychological basis (encompassing seemingly independent factor 'religion'), as is brilliantly explained by two Rattans:-)

I agree that similar social hierarchy can exist in other societies as well, getting more or less sublime form depending on how educated and liberal the society is. Though, classification of people based on ethnicity, color and profession in developed societies can’t be called ‘caste’ in technical terms, this kind of implied social structure affects mindset and working of society in similar way as caste-ridden societies but, of course, in milder form. Education, merit, financial status and legal rights can certainly blur these boundaries in terms of explicit social dealings but that doesn’t always have similar affect in people’s minds. But that’s best one can expect from eugenic factors like education etc. the remaining problem falls in realm of individual’s conscience.

Today, everybody agrees that Indian caste system is curse on society and must be removed. Agreed! But there is more to it. Having agreed that something is bad the next natural step is to take care of it. That process involves discussion, analysis of history (because those who don’t know it are condemned to repeat it :-)), planning, logistics and implementation.

A specific historical question one can ask is: how this cumbersome caste system got caste(d) in rigid form as we see it today while earliest ritual texts like Rgveda mention caste system in completely different context? Manu’s code defines 4 classes -Brahmins, Kshatriya,Vaishya and Shudra. First of all, this was not rigid system and there are numerous stories where caste system didn’t hinder individual in fulfilling his/her ambitions e.g. Balmiki, Ved-Vyasa etc. These texts are highly symbolic e.g. word “varNA” doesn’t mean ‘color of skin’ but ‘color of aura’ and this classification of people also had psychological element associated with it. Brahims representing Sattva state of mind; Kshatriya and Vaishya for Rajas state and Shudra for Tamas state. Brahims used to wear white clothes (so that any smallest inpurity can show up), Kshatriya used to wear red clothes(symbolic of blood), Vaishya –yellow clothes(turmeric, symbolic of trade) and Shudra –black clothes. So this ‘varNA’ might also have some meaning associated with clothes. These colors also represent psychological states and in that line few argue that classification was based on personal qualification and profession not birth, which later on got degraded to based on birth.

Real ramification of classes began later. Later texts (Smriti) talk of stories where caste is more visible. There is a proposition which many schools hold on to “whenever there is any doubt or question regarding any issue what so ever Shruti(Vedas) has authority over Smriti(Puranas, Upnishads, Mahabharta etc)”. But caste system didn’t remain like as defined in Shruti and crystallization began in Puranic period and early ADs. As an example, how Untouchables (dalits) originated when there is no word for that in Vedas? May be Buddhism can shed some light. Dr. Ambedkar said
“The Broken Men hated the Brahmins because the Brahmins were the enemies of Buddhism and the Brahmins imposed untouchability upon the Broken Men because they would not leave Buddhism. On this reasoning it is possible to conclude that one of the roots of untouchability lies in the hatred and contempt which the Brahmins created against those who were Buddhist.”

Some internet sources say that a caste similar to Untouchables existed in China, Japan and Koriea too, so that seems to endorse the statement. [As a digession: In movie ‘Seven Samurai’ seventh samurai was not samurai but a farmer and he was treated with prejudices so similar strata of classes are visible there]

Actually, division of society based on labor wasn’t unique feature of Ancient India only but other civilization had it too. Caste system was present in Judism, castes like Cohanim, Levites and Israelites were there but they weren’t very rigid. Priest class was present in almost every civilization and they had special rights. Like Druids in Celts, the Magi of the Persians and there was priest caste in Egypt too. Medieval Europe had priests, nobles, farmers etc. [Some people even try to relate this caste system with Indian through Aryan Invasion Theory, Georges Dumézil’s trifunctional hypothesis is a preposterous effort in that direction, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trifunctional_hypothesis ]
Actually “jati” system -division of society based on labor had similar groups in medieval Europe, called “Guilds” which were destroyed by onset on Industrial Revolution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guild

Colonial era had its share too in making system more rigid. And more harm is done by portrayal of caste system in west in negative light by racist scholars serving the purpose of Raj i.e. belittling the ruled society to make it easy to rule. Today this job has been delegated to Indian leftists and proselytizing agencies which convert untouchables. Few centuries back when Presbyterian was looked down by Roman Catholic some East Asian should have gone there and coax them to convert to Buddhism :-)

I believe that caste system was sensible idea in ancient time but its current form is due to various unfortunate courses history took. It’s easy to criticize that now because of all the “hindsight” we have but when Manu wrote his verse may be he didn’t have enough “foresight”. 5000 years are too long for any kind of foresight.

Anyway, that’s all….. thanks
Vinod

PS: Anuj, I couldn’t resist, your comparison of Indian caste system with Brave New World is childish. In BNW, castes alpha, beta and gammas are genetically tempered before birth and there are made like machines to serve their purpose by making them capable of enjoying what they are doing. And this is done to control society by a totalitarian ruler. While our caste system was meant to serve purpose of harmonious society.

[bharatrattan]

Dear Vinod,
To summarize and conclude,your discription is really brilliant.
Worth every word.
Bharat