Hindus Lets Get United

[mit]

JAMMU: Unleashing a wave of terror in Jammu and Kashmir's Rajouri district, militants axed to death a woman and slit the throats of five men after segregating Hindus and Muslims in the village.

Both the incidents in separate villages in Rajouri district, about 200 km north of Jammu, took place Thursday night.

In what is being seen as the first major killing of Hindus in the last two years, five men in the age group of 40-60 were brutally killed when militants allegedly barged into their homes in Deb village in Rajouri.

Though initial reports said the five were gunned down, it later came to light that their throats were slit after the militants segregated Hindu and Muslim populations.

No group has claimed responsibility for the incident in the hilly village in the heavily forested area where a large...
SOURCE:TIMES OF INDIA TODAY.

Dear fellow members this is a matter to be discussed and thought. some thing should be done on it otherwise it's not to0 far when these islamic terrorist will come to eachone of us giving us no choice but to die lets do something.
:mad:

[dahiyarules]

Well its not a Hindu-Muslim issue. Its more of an insurgency related issue. The insurgents did it intentionally to get attention, and by adding the religious aspect to their actions, they strive for even greater attention. Our reaction should be to storngly denounce all bloodshed.

I havent yet commented on the Kashmr issue on this blog. I strongly denounce all insurgent activity. But, since I am a Liberty minded person, I have a strong impression that Kashmir is an OCCUPIED TERRITORY. We are occupying Kashmir against the wishes of a lot of people. I think it is time for us to hold a referendum, for the Kashmir people (Including all Kashmiri Pandits and other refugees), to choose their destiny. If they want to stay with India, good, than we cna show the middle finger to Pakistan. If they want otherwise, we should wish them luck. Then there could be two scenarios. Either they can live in a Talibanized society under Pakistani rule, and that would be Bangladesh 2 (only this time we would completely seal the borders and not allow any refugees, and neither interfere in their internal affairs). Scenario 2 would be something like they would end up becoming a soveriegn state. They would be a landlocked country, and would loose access to India's immense resources. So eitherways they are at the loosing end if they vote for independence form India.

I know that man of you are finding my words too harsh to digest. But the fact is that a Nation is not a land mass defined by international borders. A nation is a community of a Like minded group of progressive people, who strive to acheive a set of common goals. By forcibly including other people in this group is anti-liberty and undermines the very definition of the word "Nation." As for all those who have sacrificed their lives in the valley, I salute them, but they are just the lost pawns of India's political ambitions.

Be practical guys. We fought for our freedom from the British. Now someone is fighting for freedom from us. And we have no right to deny them their freedom. To hell with them. If they want to commit suicide, inspite of the immense sacirfices in terms of human lives and economic costs, thenwho are we to stop them.

[itsnavin]

Sumit bhai...
read ur views about Kashmir..and ofcourse surprised!
Kitney hissey karwaogey India ke...Aaj tum kashmir ki baat kar rahe ho, kal Khalistan, then Nagas, Asaam, Tamils and soon the list will increase. If we keep making the states independent like this, India will merely be Delhi only...and that too may be not.

You said..Kashmir is an occupied territory by India...did u read this in detail? Maharaja HariSingh agreed to join hands with India after Pakistani insurgents attacked Kashmir...and India helped Hari Singh to take control of Indian occupied Kashmir. Then how can u say that India has occupied...infact Pakistan has forcibly occupied POK..

If India made Kashmir independent, do u think that Kashmir will remain independent. It'll have to surrender to Pakistan...Pakistan will take it same day.

Also, if Pakistan claims Kashmir only due to the reason that it has muslim majority...OK...give them Kashmir and also send all 14% Indian muslim to Pakistan...and tell them we are giving them extra space to accomodate them...By these means, Gandhi ne jo galtiyan ki thee...unko sudhara ja sakta hai...

And u r saying Kashmiri militants as freedom fighters...shame! Was Bhindrawala a freedom fighter? Do u think all BODOs are freedom fighters? There is no point me telling u these things...You'll have to judge it yourself.

As per my opinions, Kashmir problem has 2 potential solutions:
- Get POK by any means...by hook or by crook..
- Make LOC an international border...

And in no case India should free Kashmir...otherwise it'll be forced to free many other states...

Navin

[rkumar]

and how about we Jats demanding a Jatland ? All it takes to create trouble is to have 100 trouble makers, killing few people, blasting few bombs...and freedom movement starts... here are some counter questions ?

1. Did British held a referndum when country was divided ?
2. Did patel hold referndum when various princely states were taken over ?

India will break into 100 pieces when Kashmir is lost from India. whole Jatland will also become a land locked country... We will be once again at war with everyone... And if war is what will happen, then why not to keep fighting it in Kashmir right now ? Next logical step should be to annihilate the very concept of Pakistan... This is the only way for India to become strong... Those who want peace, there are so many places on Earth where they can go...1000s of inhibited islands are there in ocean...one can own one of them and live on fishing...

RK^2

[dahiyarules]

Exactly. I managed to twitch ya'lls right nerve. My basic aim to inform the kashmiris of the real intentions of those who want Kashmir to go free. Dude, I know muslims from pakistan who are envious of the living conditions in Pakistan. There are a lot of reasons for those guys to not go their own way.

As for the refrendum, thats gonna make doodh ka doodh aur paani ka paani. The current leaders of Kashmir are all dogs of pakistan. I think we shold play a reverse stratgy, by having some dogs on our side.

As for the country splitting, let me tell you something. Learn from history. Geography keeps changing. It never remans the same. India will split up some day. When? its a question of time. The reason I see India tending to split up is because people fail to see the common goal that binds a nation, and theres a lot of frustration and impatience with government.

[itsnavin]

Nerve hai to pinch bhee hogi...

Whatever u say Sumit...it's not going to happen...India is not going to split beyond this. Last split was in 1947. And to tell you if it splits further, the new so called nation will be another Bangaldesh or Pakistan. With India growing at 6-7%, no state can think of living of it's own. Moreover, it's the people like you who think that separation is in India's benefit. .

You said Geography keeps changing...but it can't be only for India...US, UK, China, France...kya in sab countries mein geography change nahin hoti..India mein hee kyon? US ke states ko independence ki baat kyon nahin hoti yahan par..US has it's military presence in each part of the world..India ne Kashmir mein military laga dee to sabko problem hone lagi.

And the feeling of common goals comes from resolving issues not by creating issues like u r doing here. I know there is a lot of frustration and impatience among Indians but things won't change over night. We need to work and u too. Educate people. Reforms are needed. Basically we need an Indian revolution to overthrow the corrupt officials, politicians and public. Think about ur state...ur caste but also think about how u and ur state contributes to India.
About referendum, I'll never go for it as I don't believe that voting can be impartial. It'll be heavily rigged and the final outcome of that referendum, I already know. They will vote for independent Kashmir but will be taken over by Pakistan immediately.

Think again...it's not very easy. Tomorrow if some one claims a part of ur parental property....r u going to give it to him without resistence...I am sure...u won't.

Navin

[dahiyarules]

Well howlong will you force people to live together. Read my words carefully. Partitions are evitable as long as people share a commong goal that binds them together. The only reason there are all those insurgency movements happening in India right is becuase those people have been mislead by their leaders about a goal thats diferent from India's.

I am asking everyone to be very practical. Atleast in your hearts you all agree that Kashmiri's dont want o stay with us. Because you all are afraid of having a refrendum. Some of you all already know what the outcome of a refrendum would be, even without having a refrendum.

I have a solution for Kashmir. We dont even have to Give it away. Stop treating Kashmiri's like second class citizens. You may not agree verbally, but you know what I am talking about. Finally Convince them that we share a common goal. And politically, we can always rig them just like the Pakis have rigged them for years. Have some paid dogs among them who keep creating hatred for Pakistan. We did this to Bangladesh, by creating the Mukti bahini.

Kashmir needs a psychological warefare rather than the conventional one they are having right now.

As for the other parts of the world, you ever head of the AmericanCivil War. After supressing the southern war for Independence the federal government has indulged in an extensive campaign to taint the confederate movement. Today confedracy is equated to slavery, racism, greed, anti-nationalism, terrorism, here in the United states. That campaign has been going on for 140 years. Today you will see more American flags in the south than in the formerly union states. Learn something from them.

[jitender_singh]

Hi,

If you go by your approach we cant stand a powerful nation, to become a powerful nation we have to sacrifice small things and we indians can never allow freedom of kashmir , it is at very important geographical position for central asia.

its a general concept, to remain stable unstabled your neighbour. India have to amend thier policy against these neighbours.

Regards
Jitender



At last britain is able to convince IRA , similarly we can hope for Kashmir.

Well howlong will you force people to live together. Read my words carefully. Partitions are evitable as long as people share a commong goal that binds them together. The only reason there are all those insurgency movements happening in India right is becuase those people have been mislead by their leaders about a goal thats diferent from India's.

I am asking everyone to be very practical. Atleast in your hearts you all agree that Kashmiri's dont want o stay with us. Because you all are afraid of having a refrendum. Some of you all already know what the outcome of a refrendum would be, even without having a refrendum.

I have a solution for Kashmir. We dont even have to Give it away. Stop treating Kashmiri's like second class citizens. You may not agree verbally, but you know what I am talking about. Finally Convince them that we share a common goal. And politically, we can always rig them just like the Pakis have rigged them for years. Have some paid dogs among them who keep creating hatred for Pakistan. We did this to Bangladesh, by creating the Mukti bahini.

Kashmir needs a psychological warefare rather than the conventional one they are having right now.

As for the other parts of the world, you ever head of the AmericanCivil War. After supressing the southern war for Independence the federal government has indulged in an extensive campaign to taint the confederate movement. Today confedracy is equated to slavery, racism, greed, anti-nationalism, terrorism, here in the United states. That campaign has been going on for 140 years. Today you will see more American flags in the south than in the formerly union states. Learn something from them.

[abhishek]

At last britain is able to convince IRA , similarly we can hope for Kashmir.
those two words sound so very indian and sums up indian foreign policy well. And Kashmir is part of India period.

[dhruvdahiya]

Let Us Unite Jats FirstJAMMU: Unleashing a wave of terror in Jammu and Kashmir's Rajouri district, militants axed to death a woman and slit the throats of five men after segregating Hindus and Muslims in the village.

Both the incidents in separate villages in Rajouri district, about 200 km north of Jammu, took place Thursday night.

In what is being seen as the first major killing of Hindus in the last two years, five men in the age group of 40-60 were brutally killed when militants allegedly barged into their homes in Deb village in Rajouri.

Though initial reports said the five were gunned down, it later came to light that their throats were slit after the militants segregated Hindu and Muslim populations.

No group has claimed responsibility for the incident in the hilly village in the heavily forested area where a large...
SOURCE:TIMES OF INDIA TODAY.

Dear fellow members this is a matter to be discussed and thought and some thing should be done on it otherwise it's not to far when these islamic terrorist will come to eachone of us giving us no choice but to die lets do something.
:mad:





My dear Amit uncle ji,


Let us unite our handful of JATS first because we could not do that in last 1000 + years............SAD na?

[rkumar]

What do we mean by freedom of Kashmir? The very question is meaningless and illogical. Kashmir is free as;

1. Kashmir has a freely elected legislature
2. Kashmir elects its own MPs who take part in national policy matters

What else freedom means? Don't they have everything one needs in a free society?

RK^2

[vinodks]

Well its not a Hindu-Muslim issue. Its more of an insurgency related issue. The insurgents did it intentionally to get attention, and by adding the religious aspect to their actions, they strive for even greater attention. Our reaction should be to storngly denounce all bloodshed.


Sumit bhai, its unfortunate that your thoughts clearly manifest ignorance of Kashmir and Hindu-Muslim issue and I would strongly recommend you to make yourself acquinted with atleast basics of the subject. In order to sound fancy and unconventional these (pseudo)-liberal ideas are adapated by many these days but they don't serve any purpose other than verbosity.
This issue is very much Hindu-Muslim issue but it's cloaked in other minor issues. If Kashmir is lost not only it will be a very big jolt to nation's confidence and individual Indian's psyche but it will also open gateway to dream mission of insurgency so called "Mugalistan" -a imaginary belt of muslim dominated population from Kashmir to north UP to Bihar to Bangladesh and rest parts of country will be more vulnerable. Factitious elements has contibuted most to India's decline in history and they continue to play their role, plight of kashmiris(now moderate muslims are getting killed becuz no Hindus are left), Nepal is already in grip of Maoist, Naxalist and Nagas are active and so on...
Sometimes this factitious attitude takes milder form like regional-"liberty"....
Sorry if I was harsh but I was just trying to be objective.

Vinod

[vivek]

Let's imagine that there is a referendum in Kashmir, and the results of referendum say India...what makes you think for one minute that Pakistan will respect that referendum....does the dictater over there respect election results in their own country?

Having a higher ground in a battlefield is extremely important, and planes of Punjab would be incredibly difficult to defend if Kashmir is given away.

India has been on defensive in this Pakistan sponsored terrorism. I do not know what is keeping the Indian government from sending a clandestine operation and blowing up some of these jehadi camps.....and have some obscure group claim responsibility for it. (Give Pakistan taste of their own medicine). This is war and you cannot fight it with one arm tied behind your back.

My father directed antiterrorism efforts for IB in kashmir in the 1960's (He later became DG Maharastra). His 'people crossed into Pakistan on a regular basis to cut out the problem at the root.

[pup030]

Well friends, Kashmir was and still remains an exclusive territory within India and let me ask you all as to what is our personal stake in the territory. Its the hapless soldiers and officers from the forces who are at the receiving end. Why does the central government extend so many sops to Kashmir, each summer we have starvation deaths in Kalahandi, Orrisa. :o Today, if anyone of us wanted to the start a business in the valley or say invest in some property there, we are prevented from doing so by the special enactments which forbid us to have assets in that state. Why should the national exchequer keep bleeding for the valley when on the other hand the same tax payers cannot buy or invest in assets in the valley.

Thats strange and theatre of the absurd. Allow the rest of the nation to have stakes in the valley and things would start to change. For far too long has the valley remained an exclusive zone and thats not doing anyone any good. Mark my words, let there be material involvement for the rest of the citizenry and the ground realities would rapidly change.

The Kashmiri pandits,less said the better of their plight... could there be anything more sad then a people turned into refugees within their own country. :mad: If you are in Delhi, do shock yourself for once by visiting any of the Kashmiri pandit camps and you would discover the bitter truth about once proud and well off Kashmiri pandit woman having to prostitute themselves in order to survive. Thats happening right under the nose of the authorities who are instrumental with regard to Kashmir. Could there be anything more shameful then this for the "Nation".

Kit ka nation state Bhai. :confused:

Dhiren Singh
Advocate

[vivek]

Well friends, Kashmir was and still remains an exclusive territory within India and let me ask you all as to what is our personal stake in the territory. Its the hapless soldiers and officers from the forces who are at the receiving end. Why does the central government extend so many sops to Kashmir, each summer we have starvation deaths in Kalahandi, Orrisa. :o Today, if anyone of us wanted to the start a business in the valley or say invest in some property there, we are prevented from doing so by the special enactments which forbid us to have assets in that state. Why should the national exchequer keep bleeding for the valley when on the other hand the same tax payers cannot buy or invest in assets in the valley.

Thats strange and theatre of the absurd. Allow the rest of the nation to have stakes in the valley and things would start to change. For far too long has the valley remained an exclusive zone and thats not doing anyone any good. Mark my words, let there be material involvement for the rest of the citizenry and the ground realities would rapidly change.

The Kashmiri pandits,less said the better of their plight... could there be anything more sad then a people turned into refugees within their own country. :mad: If you are in Delhi, do shock yourself for once by visiting any of the Kashmiri pandit camps and you would discover the bitter truth about once proud and well off Kashmiri pandit woman having to prostitute themselves in order to survive. Thats happening right under the nose of the authorities who are instrumental with regard to Kashmir. Could there be anything more shameful then this for the "Nation".

Kit ka nation state Bhai. :confused:

Dhiren Singh
Advocate

Bilkul theek baat kahi. Dhiren ji

[mit]

Well its not a Hindu-Muslim issue. Its more of an insurgency related issue. The insurgents did it intentionally to get attention, and by adding the religious aspect to their actions, they strive for even greater attention. Our reaction should be to storngly denounce all bloodshed.
lives in the valley, I salute them, but they are just the lost pawns of India's political ambitions.

Be practical guys. We fought for our freedom from the British. Now someone is fighting for freedom from us. And we have no right to deny them their freedom. To hell with them. If they want to commit suicide, inspite of the immense sacirfices in terms of human lives and economic costs, thenwho are we to stop them.

Said to know that people in my community thinks like that but than it is a fact that jats have there individual thinking that shows that u are a very jat stock but my friend my point was not to justify or unjustify the kashmir issue (i strongly feel its part of my country and we will not give it on any cost)
i want to ask our elders and friends to come with some solution to this problem.it was a problem,it is a problem and will stay a problem untill some thing would be done and if we sited like this than the day is not to far when these bastards will come inside our house.
Now let me give answer to ur qus like respected elders and my friends have told u it is not kashmir we are fighting for we are fighting with a ideology "islam" whose basic concept is to spread and those who do not get coloured under islamic colour kill them ,thats the problem we are facing, it would have been alright as u are saying if these people are protesting by only giving there life like our satyagrahi people had done but these people are giving 1 life and talking 10 innocent life. u cant justify these terrorist by saying there fight as fight for freedom. i m amazed about ur ignorance and naiveness which is unable to differentiate between a nobel fight and a filthy terrorism none of indian freedom fighters have never delibrately killed a single innocent person but these islamic terrorist kills innocents which is immoral in all the religions races and creed.My bro if u cant come with some thing nice or do some thing than atleast dont justify the enemies coz "Humay to apno nay loota gairo mein kehan dum tha meri kashti wahi dubi jahan pani bhoot kam tha"jai hind

[dahiyarules]

Well,I have a very different approach to issues. Theres an approach that India has been taking towards Kashmir for the last nearly 20 years (since the insurgency broke out). No the facts on the ground state that, Kashmiri Insurgency is supported by the Govrnment of Pakistan. They are doing to us what we did to them in Bangladesh. On the top of it all, the insurgents as equally motivated by Islam, as they are by Indian occupation. I would openly admit one thing: that the Paksitanis and Kashmiris have bee very successsful in their campaign so far, to turn the Kashmir poppulation's opinion that they live in an occupied territory.

Now we are just left with two options. either keep fighting the Insurgency, till one of the party blinks. Or change our approach. Now this is the point where I want you all to start understanding me clearly.

If we want Kashmir to be an integral part of India, we have to play a reverse game on Pakistan, just as i said in the previous posts. Every tie we say that we will never free kashmir, or Kashmir belongs to India, we are boosting the Insurgents point that Kashmir is an occupied territory. Are you getting me. So we have to include Kashmiris along wiht other ethnic groups in our society. As long as we address them as Kashmiris and not Indians, they will continue to have the feeling of being excluded form the rest of the society.

I dont want anyone to misunderstand me. I am very well acquainted with the facts on the ground. dont think I am ignorant. And based on that I am recommending a change of approach.

Massmindedness is the disease. Start thinking differently. As long as everyone continues to look at the situation from one angle, the situation is going to be in th same angle. To change the situation, you have to change the angle, and for that look at it form a different angle.

I really didnt understand what you meant by Hindus uniting. Hindus unite. Then the Muslims unite. And then the others and on. And we all unite against each other. And in such a scenario, how can you expect the entire country to stick together. Guys d you really think that theres a basis to to your ideas.

[drrajpoonia]

Sumit,
Can you first try and get your history right? Pakistan has been after Kashmir right from independence. The first time that they tried to grab Kashmir was in 1948. Then they tried to create the lie that the attackers were from the Pakistan side of Kashmir whereas in reality they were aided, manned and supported by the Pakistani army. The second time that they tried was in 1965 through Operation Gibralter which led to the war of 1965 and Ayub Khan had to lose power.
Do you know anything about the Indo Pak war of 1971? I don't think so. Try to google for genocide/rape 1971 Bangladesh. Do you know how many Bamgladeshis were killed after Mujiber Rehman's party won a majority and the generals in Pakistan (West) realised that the power is going to shift to the East. At least 3 million were killed in Bangladesh. India did not have any choice. Pakistan was not broken by India, the seeds were sown by the follies of Pakistanis.
And of course the most recent attempt was when they grabbed the peaks of Kashmir. Then they tried to peddle the lies that the insurgent were Mujahidinins. But then the major manpower was supplied by the Northern Light Infantry (mainly Shias). If you can find information on the Pakistani occupied side of Kashmir, try to read on the Gilgit uprising by the Shias of early 80s which was brutally suppressed by Pervez Musharraf under the orders of Gen Zia. FYI the POK (I think you would call it Azad Kashmir) side is mostly Shia and not Sunni.
It is not because India broke up Pakistan and created Bangladesh that Pakistan decided to support insurgency in Kashmir. It is inspite of that.
And regarding your second assertion that India is going to break up eventually, you seem to be swayed by the old opinion in the West. Right from India's independence there has been this assertion that India will break up. It has not happened till now and it is doubtful when the economy picks up and the standard of living goes up such a thing would happen.

[dahiyarules]

Sumit,
Can you first try and get your history right? Pakistan has been after Kashmir right from independence. The first time that they tried to grab Kashmir was in 1948. Then they tried to create the lie that the attackers were from the Pakistan side of Kashmir whereas in reality they were aided, manned and supported by the Pakistani army. The second time that they tried was in 1965 through Operation Gibralter which led to the war of 1965 and Ayub Khan had to lose power.
Do you know anything about the Indo Pak war of 1971? I don't think so. Try to google for genocide/rape 1971 Bangladesh. Do you know how many Bamgladeshis were killed after Mujiber Rehman's party won a majority and the generals in Pakistan (West) realised that the power is going to shift to the East. At least 3 million were killed in Bangladesh. India did not have any choice. Pakistan was not broken by India, the seeds were sown by the follies of Pakistanis.
And of course the most recent attempt was when they grabbed the peaks of Kashmir. Then they tried to peddle the lies that the insurgent were Mujahidinins. But then the major manpower was supplied by the Northern Light Infantry (mainly Shias). If you can find information on the Pakistani occupied side of Kashmir, try to read on the Gilgit uprising by the Shias of early 80s which was brutally suppressed by Pervez Musharraf under the orders of Gen Zia. FYI the POK (I think you would call it Azad Kashmir) side is mostly Shia and not Sunni.
It is not because India broke up Pakistan and created Bangladesh that Pakistan decided to support insurgency in Kashmir. It is inspite of that.
And regarding your second assertion that India is going to break up eventually, you seem to be swayed by the old opinion in the West. Right from India's independence there has been this assertion that India will break up. It has not happened till now and it is doubtful when the economy picks up and the standard of living goes up such a thing would happen.
Well I read the same History as you sir. The only difference is that we have a differnet analysis of the same sitution, and thus differing opinions.

1. I am very well aware that Pakistan has been trying to get Kashmir right from the partition days. If we go by the logic that Mahraja of Kashmir ceeded Kashmir to india, so it belongs to us, then going by the same logic, Junagarh and Hyderabad shold belong to Pakistan. I am not siding with any side on this issue. I want answers to questions that people just prefer to shove under the couch.

2. As for Bangladesh, it was none of our business to intervene. We shold have secured our borders, and stopped all the refugees form coming in. The war was fought well over 3 decades ago, and we still have droves of refugees coming into India illeally, and that too with the help of Bangladeshi paramilitary forces. On the top of it, every now and then there are hostile activities by Bangladeshi forces every now and then, committed against our forces. By our old logic, we should attack Bangladesh again. We trained Mukti ahini and invaded Bangladesh, and now we are justifying it. What double standards.

3. As for the Kagil incident, I strongly agree it was Pakistan's fault. They should have never crossed the LOC. But then it was our fault also. We were sleeping, when we were supposed to be on the lookout.

heres no reason to be hostile to me. What do you mean that wuld call POK, azad kashmir. I am in strong disagreement over the way the kashmir Issue has been handled so far. I cannot turn a blind eye towards the thousands of civillians who have been killed in the insurgency, just like thousands of our brave men in uniform, who have sacrificed for the cause. Kashmir issue can be put to a full stop now, but it has become a fodder for both sides on the issue.

And I also do not understand that howcome you guys consider kashmir to be a soverieng part of India, when you treat Kashmir like an occupied territory, and Kashmiris like third class citizens.

yes I want India to stretch form Kashmir to Kanyakumari. but for a moment: How close have we come to achieve something, ever since the insurgency errupted nearly two decades ago. The ground reality is that the two sides are still in a dispute. Insurgency is waging. People are dying. So lets put it this way. we are still at square one.

Instead of bashing me up, I would like you guys to give some sensible suggestions to resolve the Kashmir issue for once and for all. Whats the point of having a dessert in front of you, when you cannot have it, as long as you are in a dispute wiht your little rother next to you, who wont let you have it, and doesnt have the balls to snatch it from you either.

By the way I just thought of how storngly many of us oppose the US presence in Iraq, which has been excused by saying that the US put a full stop to massmurderer Saddams, activity, but we are in support of India intervening in bangladesh.

[scotlandjat]

Sorry to say but how on earth did people work out that Kashmir belongs to India when the FACT is Indians cant even purchase land or even stay in Kashmir.

And IF Kashmir truely does belong to India then what about the 250,000 Hindu Pundits living as REFUGEES IN INDIA.

Sorry but i honestly think its a TOTAL Joke.

[dahiyarules]

Thats exactly another of points, that I bring up in discussion on the Kashir issue. Instead of including the Kashmiris in the regular indian population, and giving them the same rights, what indians elsewhere have. Kashmiris dont need special previleges. More than anything their attitude needs to be changed. Just like the pakistanis have managed to convince them in their favor, we need to do the same.

As for the kashmiri Pandits, they need to be resettled in Kashmir, and should be able to claim back what belongs to them.

[gaganjat]

Do you think it belongs to Pakistan or is it a country itself?
Say Yes or No.


Sorry to say but how on earth did people work out that Kashmir belongs to India when the FACT is Indians cant even purchase land or even stay in Kashmir.

And IF Kashmir truely does belong to India then what about the 250,000 Hindu Pundits living as REFUGEES IN INDIA.

Sorry but i honestly think its a TOTAL Joke.

[dhruvdahiya]

I after talking to so many experienced people and reading through the literature available want to say the following:

1] Kashmir dispute has reached a stage where it has become a pain for India [saanp ke muh mei chhachhunder]

2] India has allowed it to reach this far due to weak political leadership and thoroughly confused foreign policy years after years.

3] Practically J&K is hardly with India [waise khush hone ke paise nahi lagte]

4] There is a huge truth in what SUMIT DAHIYA uncle is stating out here but we tend to get carried away with our false bravado...let us register as to what sense is he talking.

5] Kargil was a blunder of our own making then why blame Pakistan [ When one's izzat gets openly sold in the streets, blaming the village sarpanch will be in bad taste.

6] Indians are poor learners and have hardly any urge or incling to learn from history.

7] We are brilliant indvidually but collectively we have been a let down barring a few times in the fase of external aggressions.

8] Pakistan has proved to be smarter than India as far as the GAME OF KASHMIR is concerned.

9] Price paid by india towards Kashmir is 100 times more than what Pakistan has paid ? and we are still paying a very heavy price still

10] What ever the price INDIA has to keep its stake HIGEST in J&K in all times to come as now it is a question of the Izzat and geography.




Due respect to all worthy members.

[vivek]

Those of you suggesting that we give into pakistan sponsored terrorism have learned nothing from history and have very little understanding of Islam. If we give away Kashmir, would the muslims be satisfied. The Imam of Jama Masjid in New Delhi refuses to condemn the concept that India is Darul Harb....a concept in Islam which means that it is duty of every muslim to take back land that was once ruled by islam.

The house in kashmir has to be cleaned. We cannot bow down to muslim power in the middle east and treat it as separate from india. The soldiers who die for kashmir should be able to buy land in kashmir.

The plan would be to remove Article 370. Prepare a large resettlement area for Kashmiri pandits and soldiers families. Give business and tax incentives for the enterprising to move into Kashmir. There will be need for private security firms, so that's another venue for employment. Biharis are making bunkers for the terrorist, I am sure a lot of them would move into kashmir.

Slowly change the composition of the state to a hindu majority. Jammu and Kashmir is 33% non muslim...so it can be done.

However we seem to be moving in the opposite direction, so that will only embolden the terrorist more. There is a reason why hindus were gulam for a 1000 years, and it is cowardice, caste where one works against the other, and politicians working for petty gain (a la Mulayam Singh).

Classic case of cowardice...when Morarji Desai nixed a plan at last minute to bomb Pakistan's nuclear facility so painstakingly put in by my father with the help of Israelis. The plan went ahead again when Chaudhary Charan Singh became PM, but then Indira came to power and totally nixed the plan and removed contact with the israelis.

Remember Chaudhary Charan singh August 15th 1979 address to the nation. He asked, why is Pakistan pursuing nuclear weapons so feverishly. Who would they be used against? China, Russia, Afganistan? No they would be used against India? That speech was prophetic for he also complained against the labor laws that are so affecting the Indian marketplace today. If he was in power for just six more months, we wouldn't have the mess with kashmir we have today.

[mit]

Those of you suggesting that we give into pakistan sponsored terrorism have learned nothing from history and have very little understanding of Islam. If we give away Kashmir, would the muslims be satisfied. The Imam of Jama Masjid in New Delhi refuses to condemn the concept that India is Darul Harb....a concept in Islam which means that it is duty of every muslim to take back land that was once ruled by islam.

The house in kashmir has to be cleaned. We cannot bow down to muslim power in the middle east and treat it as separate from india. The soldiers who die for kashmir should be able to buy land in kashmir.

The plan would be to remove Article 370. Prepare a large resettlement area for Kashmiri pandits and soldiers families. Give business and tax incentives for the enterprising to move into Kashmir. There will be need for private security firms, so that's another venue for employment. Biharis are making bunkers for the terrorist, I am sure a lot of them would move into kashmir.

Slowly change the composition of the state to a hindu majority. Jammu and Kashmir is 33% non muslim...so it can be done.

However we seem to be moving in the opposite direction, so that will only embolden the terrorist more. There is a reason why hindus were gulam for a 1000 years, and it is cowardice, caste where one works against the other, and politicians working for petty gain (a la Mulayam Singh).

Classic case of cowardice...when Morarji Desai nixed a plan at last minute to bomb Pakistan's nuclear facility so painstakingly put in by my father with the help of Israelis. The plan went ahead again when Chaudhary Charan Singh became PM, but then Indira came to power and totally nixed the plan and removed contact with the israelis.

Remember Chaudhary Charan singh August 15th 1979 address to the nation. He asked, why is Pakistan pursuing nuclear weapons so feverishly. Who would they be used against? China, Russia, Afganistan? No they would be used against India? That speech was prophetic for he also complained against the labor laws that are so affecting the Indian marketplace today. If he was in power for just six more months, we wouldn't have the mess with kashmir we have today.
True vivek bro what ever u said is true i dont understand why our own brothers are talking like that they think that the problem will be solved if we give kashmir and i would like to say that why dont our people dont understand that it's the ideology of islam to spread it's not kashmir they want to change all world in to a mulsim world so if we give kashmir we give up in front of that ideology i m tired of this openmindedness dhaiya bro had opted seems he is living in too much comfort in us thats why he speak like that he dont know the way our brothers were butchered and our femalse were humiliated by these so called kashmiri terrrorist on top i dont understand how can some one call them as fighters fighters dont do cowardly acts like these insurgents are doing but i would like to say some of our brother who claim to be knowledgable seems very ignorant of the ground realities

[gaganjat]

People who think Kashmir is a disputed property are not Indians.

People who think that Kashmir is creating troubles for whole of India and we should give it up, are the most foolish people. They should surrender their Indian citizenship and become Bangladeshi.

And the time they will be moving to Bangladesh or Pakistan I would love to shoot them dead.


Do you think it belongs to Pakistan or is it a country itself?
Say Yes or No.

[mit]

People who think Kashmir is a disputed property are not Indians.

People who think that Kashmir is creating troubles for whole of India and we should give it up, are the most foolish people. They should surrender their Indian citizenship and become Bangladeshi.

And the time they will be moving to Bangladesh or Pakistan I would love to shoot them dead.
WELL SAID BRO BRAVOO.

[gaganjat]

The reason behind preventing people from purchasing land in Kashmir is well known. It is to prevent it from paki supporters in India to make it a paki owned land.

Indians in India cant be refugees. They are still in their own country but just changed the place for security.

Mahlee if you still believe they are refugees than you are refugee too in Scotland but you dont even belong to India. You can say yourself GLOBAL REFUGEE.

Mahlee Its f*uken stupid to say its a joke.







Sorry to say but how on earth did people work out that Kashmir belongs to India when the FACT is Indians cant even purchase land or even stay in Kashmir.

And IF Kashmir truely does belong to India then what about the 250,000 Hindu Pundits living as REFUGEES IN INDIA.

Sorry but i honestly think its a TOTAL Joke.

[rkumar]

I am seeing all the ingredients being mixed now at international level to annihilate Pakistan once for all...The way things are moving, day is not too far when there won't be any Pakistan on the face of Earth... Pakistan can not take Kashmir for another 1000 years.....

RK^2

[mit]

I am seeing all the ingredients being mixed now at international level to annihilate Pakistan once for all...The way things are moving, day is not too far when there won't be any Pakistan on the face of Earth... Pakistan can not take Kashmir for another 1000 years.....

RK^2
Very well said uncle there would be no pakistan on the world map very soon.

[karans]

I am seeing all the ingredients being mixed now at international level to annihilate Pakistan once for all...The way things are moving, day is not too far when there won't be any Pakistan on the face of Earth... Pakistan can not take Kashmir for another 1000 years.....

RK^2

Tau baat to theek kah se tu. Amerika ke hum phoopa konya lagen the ke mahre prime minister ke washington me itni khattar karte wo. kuch khichdi to jaroor paak re se.

Karan

[scotlandjat]

The reason behind preventing people from purchasing land in Kashmir is well known. It is to prevent it from paki supporters in India to make it a paki owned land.

Indians in India cant be refugees. They are still in their own country but just changed the place for security.

Mahlee if you still believe they are refugees than you are refugee too in Scotland but you dont even belong to India. You can say yourself GLOBAL REFUGEE.

Mahlee Its f*uken stupid to say its a joke.

Ok you seem to have missed my point Gaganjat.

Gaganjat i think personally it is a Joke how an Indian Citizen like yourself and many other members on this website are not allowed to buy land in Jammu & Kashmir. Now IF J&K is part and parcel of India why cant an Indian Citizen buy land or even property.

You also mentioned that it is to stop Pro Pakistani from buying land in J&K then could RAW etc not do the same in Azad Kashmir???

For instance i was born and bred here in Scotland i can buy land and even property in England,Wales and Northern Ireland because it is all part and parcel of Britain. There is no dispute.

And as for the Kashmir Pundit am sorry to say they are Refugees in their own India and i'll tell you another thing these ILLEGAL Bangladeshi coming in the truck loads into India are treated much better than the Kashmiri Pundits.

[jakhar77]

People who think Kashmir is a disputed property are not Indians.

People who think that Kashmir is creating troubles for whole of India and we should give it up, are the most foolish people. They should surrender their Indian citizenship and become Bangladeshi.

And the time they will be moving to Bangladesh or Pakistan I would love to shoot them dead.
this is like real Indian Jat.

[dahiyarules]

People who think Kashmir is a disputed property are not Indians.

People who think that Kashmir is creating troubles for whole of India and we should give it up, are the most foolish people. They should surrender their Indian citizenship and become Bangladeshi.

And the time they will be moving to Bangladesh or Pakistan I would love to shoot them dead.
Hey Guys !

I remember how three years ago I used to think the same way, just like most of us.

Then, my opinon was that we have to keep fghting for Kashmir. we are putting up a good show. And Kashmir will forever belong to us.

Now, I still think that Kashmir belongs to us. We have shed enough blood and paid enough price to deserve to have kashmir to be a part of India.

But my opinon has changed in respect that is our strategy on Kashmir working. If we keep the same strategy for years to ocme, is anything going to change. Neither Pakisan has stopped fighting us for Kashmir, nor have we blinked so far. The fight is going on, and we are still at square one.

Now wha I have so far been suggesting is a change in strategy. By this I am not saying give up Kashmir to Pakistan or anyone else. Just like pakistan has managed to convince the Kashmiris to be on thier side, we have to convince the Kashmirirs to cme back to our side. Kashmir has to be integrated into India, just like Punjab was done recently, or lets say Madhya pradesh has been for all these years. Once no one can figure out any distinction between Kashmir or any other Indian provinces, no one would be crying for Kashmir anymore.

I think I made my point very clear.

As for the refrendum, I strongly feel, that as long as we are afraid of having in Kashmir, we get our answer on the issue, clear and straight forward, we havent achieved anything in Kashmir. We may have managed to hold on to the piece of Land, but we havent managed to win over the kashmiri people's hearts, which in my mind is more important than having the land. The day we feel confident enough to hold a refrendum in Kashmir, we can say that our policies and strategies on Kashmir are working, and we have succesfully integrated Kashmir into India. Till our heart says no to refrendum, we are failing in Kashmir.

As for violence, and erasing paksitan from the map, I am compltely against any violence. The leaders sit in their nuke proof bunkers in Delhi and Islamabad,as our men bit the bullets. I htink those who start the wars, shold be the ones who actually fight them. Never underestimate your enemy. Pakistn isnt any less lethal now. we have to be more smart with our strateiges, than be a bonehead.

as for someone shooting me, because I strive for liberty freedom and peace, go ahead and do it. I rather die defending liberty, than taking it away from someone.

Guys wake up. Realise the fact that Kashmiris are humans too. Ordinary civillians are are being disenfrenchized o their civil liberties. They ae living under constant fear of being attacked either by the millitants or our own security forces. And if you some sense of civility and compassion left within you, you cannot tollerate or justify their suffering either. Lets put it this way. The entire country s suffering becase of Kashmir. And something has to be done ASAP about it.

[dhruvdahiya]

Hey Guys !

I remember how three years ago I used to think the same way, just like most of us.

Then, my opinon was that we have to keep fghting for Kashmir. we are putting up a good show. And Kashmir will forever belong to us.

Now, I still think that Kashmir belongs to us. We have shed enough blood and paid enough price to deserve to have kashmir to be a part of India.

But my opinon has changed in respect that is our strategy on Kashmir working. If we keep the same strategy for years to ocme, is anything going to change. Neither Pakisan has stopped fighting us for Kashmir, nor have we blinked so far. The fight is going on, and we are still at square one.

Now wha I have so far been suggesting is a change in strategy. By this I am not saying give up Kashmir to Pakistan or anyone else. Just like pakistan has managed to convince the Kashmiris to be on thier side, we have to convince the Kashmirirs to cme back to our side. Kashmir has to be integrated into India, just like Punjab was done recently, or lets say Madhya pradesh has been for all these years. Once no one can figure out any distinction between Kashmir or any other Indian provinces, no one would be crying for Kashmir anymore.

I think I made my point very clear.

As for the refrendum, I strongly feel, that as long as we are afraid of having in Kashmir, we get our answer on the issue, clear and straight forward, we havent achieved anything in Kashmir. We may have managed to hold on to the piece of Land, but we havent managed to win over the kashmiri people's hearts, which in my mind is more important than having the land. The day we feel confident enough to hold a refrendum in Kashmir, we can say that our policies and strategies on Kashmir are working, and we have succesfully integrated Kashmir into India. Till our heart says no to refrendum, we are failing in Kashmir.

As for violence, and erasing paksitan from the map, I am compltely against any violence. The leaders sit in their nuke proof bunkers in Delhi and Islamabad,as our men bit the bullets. I htink those who start the wars, shold be the ones who actually fight them. Never underestimate your enemy. Pakistn isnt any less lethal now. we have to be more smart with our strateiges, than be a bonehead.

as for someone shooting me, because I strive for liberty freedom and peace, go ahead and do it. I rather die defending liberty, than taking it away from someone.

Guys wake up. Realise the fact that Kashmiris are humans too. Ordinary civillians are are being disenfrenchized o their civil liberties. They ae living under constant fear of being attacked either by the millitants or our own security forces. And if you some sense of civility and compassion left within you, you cannot tollerate or justify their suffering either. Lets put it this way. The entire country s suffering becase of Kashmir. And something has to be done ASAP about it.



"One has to practice liberty before Advocating it"........[LINCOLN]........Indian mindset is still not ready to practice Liberty and hence J&K Burns and will continue till such time we do not learn the above lesson. Selfish lots end up becoming Slaves of their habits.

[mit]

Hey Guys !

I remember how three years ago I used to think the same way, just like most of us.


Guys wake up. Realise the fact that Kashmiris are humans too. Ordinary civillians are are being disenfrenchized o their civil liberties. They ae living under constant fear of being attacked either by the millitants or our own security forces. And if you some sense of civility and compassion left within you, you cannot tollerate or justify their suffering either. Lets put it this way. The entire country s suffering becase of Kashmir. And something has to be done ASAP about it.

My brother it's time for u to wake up what do u think you are dealing with first of all these so called kashmiris u taking favour of are mostly either part islamic terrorist groups or they give support them by giving them food shelter and many time financialy.secondly what kind of a jat you are if some one want to take anything from u with force u will give it yeah.and what this **** about u use to think 3 years back like us people you want to say that we are three year backward than ur thinking common dont give us that bullshit as far as i think just becoz ur own life is well settled you had start thinking a preachers way common u say u belong from a army background i dont think so coz u dont have pain of those young widows who's husbands has died right after a week of their marriage in a bloodshed in kashmir dealing with ur favourate islamic terrorist.How many time do i have to tell u it's not kashmir these bastards want, did'nt u saw the the so called map of mughalistan and if u give them kashmir (own so called liberal ideas of ur's)than ready to give them the whole india (may be they want u and ur family to work for them)coz when it comes to islam which itself says spread ur religion spread ur territory. so you should wake up coz we knows the fact it's u who need to wake up and dont tell us that u knows couple of pakistani's who says things of brotherhood all of them are pure bastards i can bet i know more pakistanise than u here in london all of them talk well in front of u but all of them are pure son of bitches backstabbers.so my brother try to be a bit realistic living in america doesnot means that we should forget our soilders who had died for kashmir does'nt matter what happens now if we step back we will be no where so understand it's not kashmir issue it's the matter of existence.
JUST ABOVE THEM(JAT)

[dahiyarules]

Hey Amit !

I respect everyones opinion. Nones livnig in the stone age, while other live in the ice age and so on. We all live in the same times, and we all have differing opinions.

I think of all those who have lost their loved ones in the Kashmir conflict, including me. And thats why I am giving it a hard thought on how to bring a conclusion to this situation, becuase I do not want more women being widowed a week after gettng married. Because, we we keep on carrying on the same strategy, we are going to have more women who get widowed wihin a week of getting married. Because, the ground reality is, theres a proxy war going on ,adn people are dying every day.

As for the muslims and Pakistanis, I dont have great faith at them either. I know that they are ideologically rotten assholes. I know a bunch of em either, but just cant help getting negative vibes from them.

I am looking at Kashmiris, who have been manipulated to think that their best interest is in a unified Kashmir, integrated with Pakistan. And this has been by nobody else, but the Pakistanis themselves, by the help of their intelligence agencies, and other organizations that prop the propoganda in kashmir. Now as long as the Kashmirirs keep having similar feelings, its going to e very bad for India. This would motivat hem to blow up our trains and buses, just like they are doing elsewhere. So more than having a military campaign, the need of the minute is to inflict a psychological warfare on the Kashmiris, to change their mind as to whats in their best interest. And theres no doubt that they would be on the gaining end, if they stay with india, provided all the liberties we get back at home.

Domestic trouble start when people in the family start trusting the outsiders more han they trust the ones in their homes. Thats exaclty whats happening at the moment. All insurgencies in INdia derive their support from outsde governments.

[abhishek]

This article should put doubts about kashmir at rest

http://www.saag.org/papers8/paper710.html

....
The true presumptive basis for any strategic Indian thinking on Pakistan are:

1. Solving Kashmir will NOT bring peace to the Indian sub-continent – Kashmir is not the main issue, Pakistan is

2. Pakistan’s in stability is due to its moth-eaten and unreliable institutions, as well as due to the diffusion of jihadi terrorist thinking throughout all aspects of Pakistani society – not due to its trumped up animosity with India

3. Solving Kashmir, Indian generosity or propping up the Pakistani economy will not reform Pakistani institutions or cleanse Pakistani society of jihadi radicalism

4. A Kashmir solution that Pakistan will sign on to, does not have any immediate benefits for India – neither terrorism not nuclear threats will stop

5. A Pakistan, capable of civilized behavior with its neighbors will go a long way in ridding the world of the scourge of terrorism
...

[sampuran]

Those who like to take a liberal view because they live in relative peace and safety, just think, will Kashmir problem exist if it was a Buddhist or Hindu state as it once used to be ?

Moplah Rebellion, Part II: Hindus massacred on Maraad Beach

http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/may/09rajeev.htm

The reported facts about the incident in Maraad, Kozhikode, Kerala, are as follows.

A group of Hindu fishermen sitting on the beach near a temple is attacked suddenly, without provocation or warning, by a mob of Muslims armed with swords. After a chaotic ten minutes, nine people are dead or bleeding to death on the beach. Many are seriously wounded. The attackers vanish into the night.
A cache of swords and other sharp weapons, including blood-stained ones, as well as powerful country bombs is recovered from a mosque in the vicinity.
Various politicians make soothing noises, 66 persons have been arrested in connection with the crime. A judicial inquiry has been instituted.
The dead are: Gopalan, Chandran, Santosh, Madhavan, Asghar, Dasan, Pushparaj, Krishnan, and Prajeesh. One of them had been married for just five days. I am basing this analysis on reports in the Malayalam media (eg: www.keralakaumudi.com (http://www.keralakaumudi.com/)). I find the local media to be far more accurate and less prejudiced than the English language media in most cases.
Consider the circumstances: the attack happened on a Friday, and it was directed at those sitting near a Hindu temple. First, almost all Muslim-initiated riots in India take place on Fridays, after the faithful have heard sermons in the local mosque.
Second, killing Hindus near a Hindu temple is guaranteed to be offensive; if there is any chance of a communal riot developing, this is an excellent way of triggering it.
This was a mini-Godhra: a murderous attack on Hindus. I have no idea who was behind it, perhaps Pakistanis, or perhaps it was merely local Moplah Muslims. After all, the Moplahs of Malabar did not need any Pakistani inspiration when they launched into the terrible riots of 1921 (the Moplah Rebellion) when they, without provocation, murdered, raped, and forcibly converted thousands of Hindus, just because distant Turkey had abolished the Caliphate.
What was the objective this time? Possibly to create a communal riot along the lines of what happened in Gujarat in the wake of the Godhra (http://www.rediff.com/news/godhra.htm) massacre. Perhaps to emphasise that in Muslim-dominated Malabar, as in Bangladesh and Kashmir, it is just fine to murder Hindus. The perpetrators -- whoever they are -- are confident that there will be no consequences.
What is likely to happen? Not much. Frightened Hindus will move some place safer, and one more piece of real estate will become dar-ul Islam, land of Muslims. This has been happening in other parts of Malabar, for example Muslim-majority Malappuram district, where Hindus are leaving for less dangerous places. Yes, the famed Nehruvian Stalinist 'secularism' in action, yet again.
Hindus in Kerala have declined in numbers, and this is what happens to non-Muslims when the Muslim population reaches a critical mass: decimation. When Semitic religions hold sway, they brutalise minorities. We have the examples of Muslim intolerance in Jammu & Kashmir and Christian intolerance in the Northeast. Hindus have a simple choice: convert, die or flee. And Kerala's Hindus are running out of places to flee to. We may end up in squalid refugee camps like the Pandits.