Mangal Pandey

[rkumar]

Communists are hell bent upon erasing every possible Indian hero's image. This is what they have to say about Mangal Pandey.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1184856.cms

RK^2

[deepender]

Accidental heroes?

All heroes are accidental. No-one plans to be a hero.
The point is, that we recognize that when the moment do arise even if it does out of an accident, who ends up standing on the right side and who on the wrong side.

Mangal Pandey most certainly chose the right side, Mr. Mukherjee seems to have chosen the wrong (Left :-)) one.

[aditi]

All heros cnt be accidental...beg to differ !!! Mangal pandey is more of an hype than reality ..... A recusant than a hero..... the revoultion or the rising was inevitable....

.........Wish it wud have been a Jaat rather than a Pandey!!!




QUOTE=deepender]Accidental heroes?

All heroes are accidental. No-one plans to be a hero.
The point is, that we recognize that when the moment do arise even if it does out of an accident, who ends up standing on the right side and who on the wrong side.

Mangal Pandey most certainly chose the right side, Mr. Mukherjee seems to have chosen the wrong one.[/QUOTE]

[vinodks]

And I differ with Aditi. Pandey wasn't just a non-conformist, that is one way of looking at him.. just becuase mutiny was inevitable his revolt wasn't less important.. e.g. people say we were anyway bound to get freedom after WWII but just because of that all the deeds by Gandhi or other freedom fighter don't become less significant..
And its unfair for people to pass any judgement on him saying that there was no nationalist feeling in India and what he meant by his country was his village etc.. All his records are written by English so any interpretation of them is bound to carry their bias..
I agree now it got hyped becuz of movie.. but we should respect our heroes like in US even smallest incidents in Independence war is glorified.. In the first revolution in America when tea bags were thrown in sea in Boston beacuz of taxes on tea imposed by British, you can criticize those people saying that they fought to get around taxes but not freedom.. Thats crooked way of thinking.. Even if Pandey's revolt was for solely personal purpose it was REVOLT and it led to inspiring others, thats more important....

BTW welcome to Jatland..:-))

vinod

[deepender]

I concede that perhaps the movie has over hyped the "legend of Mangal Pandey", but truly aren't we responsible for under-hyping this legend in the first place ?? (partly because we don't have any good historic account of what ensued).

It's true that victors always write the history in any war or power struggle, in 1857 it was the British, after American Revolution it was the Union, after WW2 it was the allies, after Alexander's conquests it was the Macedonians and after India's Independence it was the successive Congress govts - and I see nothing wrong or unnatural in this. But since we have had our eventual victory in the great power struggle with the British perhaps it's time to write our own version of the "The Great Revolt of 1857"? Certainly Mr. Mukerjee's version would not qualify in my books.
I see this movie as a healthy step in direction of "writing an Indian version" of the spark that led to the birth of the India's nationality!

BTW, welcome Aditi to Jatland!

[raj_rathee]

.. but we should respect our heroes like in US even smallest incidents in Independence war is glorified.. In the first revolution in America when tea bags were thrown in sea in Boston beacuz of taxes on tea imposed by British, you can criticize those people saying that they fought to get around taxes but not freedom.. Thats crooked way of thinking.. Even if Pandey's revolt was for solely personal purpose it was REVOLT and it led to inspiring others, thats more important....

BTW welcome to Jatland..:-))

vinod

Rightly said....
In my opinion, heroism is less a tribute to those past, and more a guiding light
for those yet to come......

[deepender]

Raj, can't think of a better way to put it!


In my opinion, heroism is less a tribute to those past, and more a guiding light
for those yet to come......

[dharmpaltakhar]

good topic.
all i care for is that he had guts to stand up against britishers.
it doesn't matter whether he did it for his village, awadh or india. i think there should be no discussion whether mangal pandey was fighting for india. he did what he had to do and i respect him for that.

also i haven't seen the movie yet so i am not going to comment on that.

[anujkumar]

I am wondering what does this acedemic historian's (Rudranghsu Mukherjee )'s view (or his research) has to with communist and commnism.

Prehaps, He is Bengali?

Other than that it's a healthy controversy. The movie is just an adaptation of the life story of Mangal Pandey, mixture of history and fantasy, not an authentic history document.

[achalsingh]

Mangal Pandey was a hype or hero by accident and views by Mr Mukherjee (i doubt that it is same of communist). I know a simple thing that he was a part of first war of independence and that matters a most.
Achal Singh

[aditi]

....what sets apart Managl Pandey from rest of the others is his defiance not heroism....This feeling is present in all i would say....one who expresses it would undeniably come out as a hero......ths would not imply mortifying neyone ....

Btw .... I acknowledge ur welcome …Mr Singh and Mr. Sangwan .!!!














I concede that perhaps the movie has over hyped the "legend of Mangal Pandey", but truly aren't we responsible for under-hyping this legend in the first place ?? (partly because we don't have any good historic account of what ensued).

It's true that victors always write the history in any war or power struggle, in 1857 it was the British, after American Revolution it was the Union, after WW2 it was the allies, after Alexander's conquests it was the Macedonians and after India's Independence it was the successive Congress govts - and I see nothing wrong or unnatural in this. But since we have had our eventual victory in the great power struggle with the British perhaps it's time to write our own version of the "The Great Revolt of 1857"? Certainly Mr. Mukerjee's version would not qualify in my books.
I see this movie as a healthy step in direction of "writing an Indian version" of the spark that led to the birth of the India's nationality!

BTW, welcome Aditi to Jatland!

[anujkadyan]

Well I think he sure is a HEro and everyone who has the guts to stand for what he thinks is his right is a Hero indeed..esp when others around him are not able to do that..

it always takes one person to coem forward and take the first step and be the leader.. others can be good followers..

Also in 1857 even if we look at Jhansi ki rani it was not that she was fighting for independence of the whole India from British Raj.. it was for her own personal motive and her own state that she fought.. Infact she did try to make certain compromises with British and when nothing worked out she had no choice but to revolt.. and she did it with great zeal and determination and thats what makes her the Hero..

One fo the main reasons in 1857 for our defeat was that everyone was fighting for his own personal interests.. and there was no such thing as national unity.. It was for their own share of princely states.

But yes they were all heros and they were the reason for the spark which later took the shape of a fire..

THey were all the source of inspiration for the next generations !!!

[rkumar]

Still very little is known about so many unknown Heros of 1857 war of independence. Thousands of people came into streets and fought in their own ways in almost every town. Loads of them were hanged by roadsides to create terror among masses. Famous battle of Shamli is not known today even to people of Shamli. This is what I call most unfortunate. There is not a trace or memorial to this great battle of Shamli.

http://www.1-electric.com/articles/Indian_rebellion_of_1857
http://darululoom-deoband.com/english/introulema/vc1.htm

If we talk of Heros, they are always common people who take leads and resist against injustice. Mahendra Singh Tikait was nothing more than any common illiterate farmer when he led the farmers. Difference between a hero and a common man is nothing but his reaction to injustice. One does not need a PhD degree or linkage to royal family to become hero. We know how royals like Scindhias took their tails between their legs during 1857.

RK^2

[spdeshwal]

Kalkhunde sahab,

In Bangalinyo/ communisto me ek Bimari hai, ye aapne te bada intellecual, freedom fighter,Deshbhagat kise ne naa mante. And to proove their point they go to any extent to defame any personality, person/ organisation.

I have read quite few books on modren history and no where read something like this or similar. Even the books published by NCERT consider Mangal Pandey as the initiater of the freedom struggle.

You have rightly pointed out the Name of Chodhry Mahender Singh Tikait, coming from a humble farming backround revolutionised the farmers movement and become the tallestof the national Kisaan Leaders.

The acts of heroism are very much incidental. In given circumstances, I mean Strategic position, an ordinary sepoy OR a junior officer can perform like a Paramvir Chakra Awardee and a senior officer thrown in front of Court Marshal

Some element of character building, backround and conditions separate Heros from Tel Chors.

So, about 2000 sacrificed their lives in first of independence( 1857) from haryana were all heros.
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2005/20050812/haryana.htm#4

So moral of the story is don't bother to read these communist historians and enjoy the film Mangal Pandey.

Cheers!

[ravichaudhary]

Mangal Pandey, was hanged to death for shooting and killing a British officer!!

In an army this happens all the time. Those hangings do not translate into a countrywide rebellion.


I somehow cannot see how he , himself, can be called the Instigator, or how he could have influenced the population from Calcutta to Peshawar to rise up simultaneously

Obviously something else was going on.

For the Jat version see:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/message/1602


Ravi Chaudhary

[ravichaudhary]

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/message/1602

**************

1857- THE FIRST WAR OF INDEPENDENCE


THE 1857 SEPOY MUTINY OR WAS IT THE FIRST INDIAN WAR OF INDEPENDENCE ?

British and most native Indian historians treat this event alike as a
Sepoy mutiny, a mutiny of the British Indian native foot soldiers
against their British officers. Brave and loyal Indians, among the
princely states of Baroda, Jaipur, Bikaner, Patiala, Nabha, and Jind
and Nepal, put this mutiny.

To get an idea of the treatment of the subject one has to only read a
prescribed text in Indian Universities, the highly regarded text " An
Advanced History of India-" by the esteemed Historians - R C
Majumdar, H. C. Ray Chaudhary, Kalika Ranjan Dutta. Macmillan India,
New Delhi republished this textbook first published in 1946, in its
4th edition in 1990.
'

It tells us that, the British were fortunate "to secure the loyalty
of and receive valuable aid from the likes of Sir Dinkar Rao of
GWALIOR, Sir Salar Jung of HYDERABAD, Jang Bahadur of NEPAL". Praise
and thanks are bestowed on the Rajput princes of Rajastan and the
Sikh princes of Punjab, Gulab Singh of Kashmir, all of whom were by
then, little more then pensioners and tax collectors for the British.
Scindia of Gwalior, Gulab Singh of Kashmir, are singled out for
special praise. Of Scindia the British Historians wrote " he. Saved
India for the British" and of Salar Jang (later Sir Salar Jang), as
a " man whose name deserves to be ever mentioned by Englishmen with
gratitude and admiration"

The cause is supposed to have been the adoption of fat filled
cartridges in the newly introduced bullets. The fat was of Pigs and
Cows, thus offensive to both Muslims and Hindus.

The revolt spread from Calcutta to Peshawar and Central India. To
suppress it help came the quarters above.

A conspiracy, against the British, British, between Nana Sahib
Peshwa the adopted son of Baji Rao II, the last Peshwa, and the Rani
of Jhansi, Laxmi Bai and others is also suggested, and it is also
suggested that the conspiracy existed even before the revolt.

At it end untold atrocities were committed on the Indian people in
revenge.

The Bombay Telegraph reported, on the aftermath of the taking of
Delhi by the British,

" All the city people found within the walls when our troops arrived
were bayoneted on the spot; and the number was not inconsiderable, as
you may suppose when I tell you that in some houses forty or fifty
people were hiding"


When it was over, names like Laxmi Bai, Rani of Jhansi, Nana Sahib
Peshwa, Tantia Tope, lived on in the minds of the Indian psyche, to
be evoked as the precursors and role models of the freedom movement
that came later, and led to the independence of India from the
British in 1947.



However one is inclined to ask was this all, and was this cause
enough for a major conflagration to envelope then known British
India. ?



How is that such a well-coordinated effort existed from one end of
the nation to the other?


Was the entire Indian population so enthralled that they would risk,
and not only risk, but also give their lives?

Was all this to save a pension for Nana Sahib Peshwa, or so that
Laxmi Bai's adopted son could ascend the throne of the small Zamidari?


The causes, the organizers, the organization, and the coordination
were a little deeper, yet the story has not been told in full.


Names like Swami Omanand, Swami Purananand, Swami Virajanand, Swami
Dayanand are nowhere mentioned.

There is no cognizance of names like Nahar Singh, Rao Tula Ram, and
of sacrifices of the men and women of the Jat Sarv Khap.

There is no mention in our histories of how the headmen of the Panchayat of each village in then Haryana were hanged to death, and entire villages
were burnt to the ground.



Haryana as it then was not the miniscule Haryana, of toady, but a
vast republic, which spread from the Sutlej in then Punjab, to
Rajasthan to Madhya Pradesh to Western UP. Its supreme Panchayat
governed this vast entire territory through its panchayat system.
Formed in 600 AD by the Jat Emperor Harsh Vardhan Virk, it was
headquartered at Shoron, district Muzzafarnagar, some 150 Kilometers
north east of Delhi on the Delhi - Dehradun Road. This republic faced
down the invaders like Ghazni, Ghauri, Timur and the Khiljis for over
one thousand years.


When the 1857 war was lost, it was destroyed. Its people were
punished. It was divided between the petty protectorates of the
British, the princes of Rajasthan, Punjab, and one part to form the
United Provinces of Agra and Oudh, and one to create what later
became the Union Territory of Delhi. The name Haryana was erased from
history.



Some records survived, and Dilip Singh Ahlawat, after much research
in the Sarv Khap records, wrote a History book in Hindi; Titled " Jat
Viron ka Ithihass" published from Rohtak in1988.


His account of the first war of Independence of 1857 is a little
different from the standard one


see:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jathistory/files

1857warofindependence.doc
1857 First war of Indian Independence

Source: Dilip Singh Ahlawat- " Jat Viron ka Itihass"].

It is the Indian version of the first war of independence, which the
British and Indian Marxist historians called the Sepoy Mutiny.

It is word .doc format, and is 28 pages long.

[shailendra]

Well but then isn't Mangal Pandey also mostly a sort of central (tangible) icon amidst all hundreds and lakhs of unknown mutineers during that revolt? I mean his story could be something that one can identify with as to the times, the ideology and the whole surge of Hindu emotions when an incident helped revive a region towards a revolt…

The History book research apparently shows that the Britishers realizing the huge mistake about the tainted cartridge tried to make quick amends by complete retraction of that ammunition,….but jaise History gawah hai, it was ALREADY too late! The spark was lit and then it was less about having to bite into a cartridge laden with cow fat and more about for once having a central and focused rebellion in the making that each and every Sepoy identified with!

Make no mistake the mutiny can be defined as nothing else but the first independence revolt! It is important to understand that at that time what was India was still scattered Princely states more than anything else, with each one of those states fighting to somehow regain a breath under the overpowering and stifling influence of the British. It is but a wonder that even in those conditions the whole region stood up like a combined force…even though the mutiny was doomed to be futile and short lived!
Critics have long debated why the sepoy’s were there in the first place but that’s like asking where were the lakhs of Indians in the first place when the Britishers methodically overpowered the whole regions might and will power!
Anyways scr..w Rudranghsu Mukherjee’s supposed view of the whole thing… who cares about losers and nonconformists anyways! :rolleyes:

[vinodks]

Ravi, you are doing good job of compiling documents on jat history. I will read these from yahoogroup file once I am finished with "history of Jats" by Prof Qanungo. Its nice book.

I agree that some names who gave their lives for freedom, are absence from history books. But one old man in my village used to say that Raja of Jind had treaty with British and used to give them taxes and rural parts of haryana were remote from influence of Raj. Peope used to be so "bhole-bhale" you were not very clear about british govr. and politics. That old man used to earn his livelihood by selling salt on camels, he used to tell stories of grandfathers. There were freedom fighters from Haryana too but I don't know why princely state of Jind raja didn't revolt? I am not clear about role of haryana in freedom fighting. there were so many figthers from Panjab.
Any thoughts???

Vinod

[haryanajat]

Ravi, you are doing good job of compiling documents on jat history. I will read these from yahoogroup file once I am finished with "history of Jats" by Prof Qanungo. Its nice book.

I agree that some names who gave their lives for freedom, are absence from history books. But one old man in my village used to say that Raja of Jind had treaty with British and used to give them taxes and rural parts of haryana were remote from influence of Raj. Peope used to be so "bhole-bhale" you were not very clear about british govr. and politics. That old man used to earn his livelihood by selling salt on camels, he used to tell stories of grandfathers. There were freedom fighters from Haryana too but I don't know why princely state of Jind raja didn't revolt? I am not clear about role of haryana in freedom fighting. there were so many figthers from Panjab.
Any thoughts???

Vinod
Is the book by qanungo available in us? From where did you purchase it? or did you get it from some other source.
Strangely When I looked around And I saw this book listed on a Iraqi web site hosted in UK - link goes to amazon:
http://www.local-news.net/go/44.32/31.98/shop - #3 on the list!!

[nrao]

Personally, I think the chapter in Capt. Dilip Singh Ahlawat's book on 1857 (I think translated by Ravi), is the best. In a very small space it provides an alternative yet comprehensive view of 1857.

From a Jat perspective, it is quite unmatched. I would go so far as to say that it should be a must reading for all jats interested in history of 1857. I learnt about Raja Nahar Singh of Ballabhgarh, who had a very heroic role in the war, from this chapter. Similarly, ordinary jats in old Haryana, who were all hanged after the war was crushed, also find a mention in that chapter. It is a good example of and can easily be classified as a great subaltern work, yet retaining its jat character.

[spdeshwal]

Ravi ji Namaste!

The Book by Sh. Dilip Singh Ahlawat is Great work. So are your efforts in Translating the great Book.This book as evidence provided by you Gives altogrther different account special in relation to participation of jats in first war of independece as it popularly Known.

My curiosity is about the cartridges greased with beef and other animal fat which is believed to be the immediate cause of revolt that was first intiated by Mangal Pandey.

I don't know how would you rate Discovery of India as historical evidence that supports the cartridge theory which were believed to be greased with animal fat(pig and cow)? It also says that Mangal Pandey( of Bengal Army) was the one who first revolted against that at Barreckpore.This incident is believed to have taken place on 29th March, 1857. This spreaded to other parts of north india via Meerut and Delhi. I may be wrong in my assumptions as i had read the book a few years back.

with regards

[vinodks]

Is the book by qanungo available in us? From where did you purchase it? or did you get it from some other source.
Strangely When I looked around And I saw this book listed on a Iraqi web site hosted in UK - link goes to amazon:
http://www.local-news.net/go/44.32/31.98/shop - #3 on the list!!

Jeentender, I got this from http://www.abebooks.com/
they have lots of old books which are not in amazon...

vinod

[bharatrattan]

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/message/1602

**************

1857- THE FIRST WAR OF INDEPENDENCE


THE 1857 SEPOY MUTINY OR WAS IT THE FIRST INDIAN WAR OF INDEPENDENCE ?
.

Dear Ravi,

It was a sepoy mutiny and not war of independence.
If the thing that sparked angst among the soldiers was the ‘animal grease’, in the beginning the defiance had nothing to do with Independence. Later as the soldiers realized the extent to which they could affect the minority British forces, the ambition did expand to coup away the existing ‘Company’s regime. I have no doubts about the opportunism of the ‘Bhikari’ Nawabs, who missed the 'orgy' tradition using Indian women, developing ‘fine arts’ in brothels of Benaras .
‘India’ remains a 'colonial concept', because such political unification only existed after the administration was centralized by the British.
It is funny that religious sentiments were more important than the national identity (which did not exist at that time, but there was a religious identity). The society was badly split, with no commitment to establish a democracy. If the mutiny had succeeded, I have no doubts; India would have gone back into the hands of Nawabs and rajas and that would have been the worst possible thing.
It is not always that you benefit from a seeming victory. Afghans never lost to British, but look where they are presently, and where we are after 700 long years of suppression, first by Mughals and later by British.

Retrospective exaggeration/ interpretation of history for psychological and political benefits, is not something I appreciate. It is best to accept facts to the extent they are true.
I would describe the event a Revolt and not mutiny, which gives the British perspective more precisely . It did play a role in catalyzing anti-British sentiments.
But it was not a war of Independence.

Bharat