Poll on Dowry

[priyanka]

What is your opinion on DOWRY SYSTEM in JAT CULTURE. Is it Healthy for our society?

[hamendra]

What is your opinion on DOWRY SYSTEM in JAT CULTURE. Is it Healthy or our society?

No, Not at all.

[positivelook]

hi Priyanka

This is totally a nonsense thing in our culture. I totally disagree with dowry system. But as wht i see in this regard is tht it is very hard to abolish dowry system from our culture becose we opposer it but when it comes to marriage of our sister or daughter we support and try to give as much as we can. The reason behind this is if u dont give ur sister or daughter much in dowry than people criticise u in the society. So i think it is only in the hands of Groom side people to say big No-No to dowry.

Abhiamanyu Phougat

[mukeshkumar007]

None will say it is HEALTHY for our society. Lakin Yeh bi Sahi Hai ki Koi DOWRY lene se mana bi nahi karega........... (I am not talking about the exceptions)

We can give a great speech very eaisly against this evil but when time come to us we happily accept it by saying that we alone can't change the system.

[priyanka]

I agree with Abhimanyu. Mukesh, i believe that if there is any problem in the society and you want to remove it then one has to take initiative.Why dont we start it from one. Why to look at each other's face?
Swami Dayanand was only one who abolished SATI PRATHA and started VIDHVA VIVAHA. Today we are in much better position and stage.

[jagmohan]

This is what I wrote on this issue in Sep 2003:
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"There is only one cure to these social ills - self discipline and personal examples. No amount of reminding ourselves of our past history and greatness can screen the present rotten double standards in our 'kaum' and society. It is always easy to advise and lecture but very few of us 'Do what we say'. Even an educated JAT who is affluent will want dowry for his son. Though he would keep saying "Bhai, kucch nahi chahiye. Bas baraat ka adar satkar hona chhaiye". We all know where it ends up.

I want to see how many of our young and unmarried JATLAND members pledge NOT TO TAKE DOWRY on this site and follow it. Even elders who have sons to marry can join this effort. It is very simple actually. Just say "I will not accept any dowry when I marry".

Again let me start with myself. "I pledge in this forum that I will not accept any dowry if and when my son gets married. I will accept the 'Bahu' in only her personal clothes. All expenditure of a joint reception will be met by me and only me. This pledge will be fulfilled by my wife should I cease to exist".
One of us can keep track as to how many of us ultimately keep our pledge.
Dudee Saheb things are much worse in the villages where there are no jobs and the land has been divided again and again due to increase in population. I still believe we can make a difference in our own humble ways. The key is to not to get distracted from the goal. (22 Sep 2003)
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And since that post I can inform the members that the 'Engagement Ceremony' of my only son was held in Feb 2005. Only simple rings were exchanged, one rupee was given to my son and simple home food was served. The marriage is planned in May/jun 2006 in similar fashion. All those who want to see how a marriage takes place without dowry, even in this 'Kalyug', be my guest.

Personal examples will have to be set by our elders and eligible bachelors

Regards,

JS Malik

[mukeshkumar007]

Your post reminds me one real story. In our village my Dadaji’s cousin who is teacher in profession was a so-called protestor of this evil. Whenever he was invited and had an opportunity to speak the village he started his verbal attack on those people who are giving and accepting DOWAY. He always said that we must abolish this evil from our society. He called villagers not to marry his/her daughter with a person who is demanding for the dowry. Many people respected him. I was also greatly influenced with his views.
But when His daughter marriage took place last year them He himself gave 1.00 lakh rupees and once bikes and many materials in dowry. Every villager was appreciating him that he did a great marriage. I was really shocked with this happening. I personally went to him and asked “Dadaji aap to iske khilaf the na phir bi apne itna sara dehej de diya” Then He replied me “Beta yeh duniya hai tum nahi samjoge, Agar apko is duniya maie rehna hai, samaj maie betna utna hai to tumhe system ke sath chalna hoga.Tum akele cho to bi kuch nahi kar sakte” Without saying anything I returned home. I was thinking that It would be more better if he simply would help his younger brother who was financially very weak.
So dear, this problem will not be root out by explaining the drawbacks of this evil to the people because today almost people are well educated and they don’t want to change themselves.

By the way ab mujhe lagta hai ki yeh problem katam ho jayegi kyoki ajkal girls bhoot kam ho gai hai. Ache pade likhe boys ki shaddi hona muskil ho rehi hai isliye dowry mangna to door ki baat hai ………kehi kehi to ladke wale dowry de rehe hai apne ladle ke shadi ke liye…….. :D :D
jo meri tehre abi tak kuware hai unko ab careful rehna chiye, remember one thing :- don't demand for dowry because 926/1000 :D

[raj2rif]

It is an evil and we all had discussed it so many times.

What story Mukesh has written, that is a fact and realty on ground. We can only control our own activities and thus what Col Malik has written that is the only way to contribute your penny to the cause.

It is an evil in any society why only ours. There is another evil, and that is taking bribe. I know some of our relatives who feel proud of taking bribes and very happy with their "Upar ki amdani", and the subject is discussed with great pride in their family, but when they come across some one who demands the same from them, then it hurts them for they have become habitual of getting free stuff. When I ask them that why do they do the same thing that they don't like others doing it to them, then the answer is the same, I don't take it some else will and I alone can't change the system. By giving this argument they comfort themselves, and try to convince others but I am sure some where they surely be having a feeling of guilt.

The only answer is self discipline. You can control only yourself. So don't even worry if your Dada ji preaches some thing and does not practices it himself.

[singh1981]

well agar normal way main socha jaaye to kuch galat bhi nahi hai...
actually hame bachpan se sikhaya gaya tha ....daehz pratha buri pratha hai..8th 9th 10th mai ek aacha khasa bada essay hota tha...jisne hamare maan main iske baare main kuch -ive feelings daal di hai...actualy hame sikhana chahiye tha ki dahej pratah ko ek aachi pratha kaise banaya jaaye...


What is your opinion on DOWRY SYSTEM in JAT CULTURE. Is it Healthy for our society?

[dahiyasaab]

yeh dowry system aaya kahan se !
do you know ?
haryana mein abhi bhi bahut se aise khandaan hain
jinhoney aaj tak kisi ladki ke baap k aagey demand nahi rakhi !
par bhaut se aise bhi hain jinhoney apni ladki ki kami chupaney
k liye issey prmote kiya, toh sirf dosh ladko par kyun !
yeh sawal ka jawab sirf humein dena jarory kyun ?
every time man has to defend this why ?
Now a days, ladki wale iska jyada fayda uthate hain !
I know a true incident of tht, happened in my relations !
ladki wale sidhe kahte hai, ji hum toh Car dengey !
What does tht mean after marriage, duniya kahti hai
in logo ne dowry le thi shaadi mein, this is what is happening !
(in almost every arranged marriages) b'coz we (people of haryana )are against love marriges ! aur yeh kahani aise hi chalegi !
hamare yahan gotar k itne lafde hain ki ek toh ladki/ladka nahi milte, aur dosren milte hain toh hieght kam hoti hai, rang saaf nahi hota, ache padhe huye nahi hote ya fir status nahi hota ! jab log itne cheez dekhte hain toh lazmi hain apni cheez ko chupane k liye ve dowry ka sahara lete hain !
agar aap mein koi kami nahi toh leave tht person aap ko aur mil jayenge ?
kyun hum in logo ko bhadhava dey ! kyunki kahi hum mein bhi kuch kami hain !
taali kabhi ek haath se nahi bajti ! kanhi na kanhi ladki wale bhi galat hain !

[mkrana]

Please correct me if I am wrong: My understanding on Dahej has two forms:

1. It was initially gifts given to the newly weds to help them setup new life. Then this started taking form of 'showoff' and became a prestige issue. Soon the system malformed such that both families status was being measured in yardsticks of Dahej-value. And then it became the compulsion leading to the modern evils that we all know today and criticise the Dahej-system for.
2. Since Hindu system does not provide a mechanism to transfer the parent's property share to a girl child; our system adopted the forms of rituals to give them their share back. That's why on every occasion we give something in one form or the other to girl child in the family. But the marriage time gifts/stri-dhan is considered the biggest chunk of all these.

Now the concept may actually be the mixture of these two. Or something entirely different (if this is case ... can somebody please light on that).

This desease to me seems like just a symptom of bigger disease - discrimination to girl child. And unfortunately it starts from the girl's family only. How often the girl child is aborted? Who gets the bigger chunk of resouces from the family - boy or girl? Problem is the parent's themselves think their daughters as 'burden'. How many parents from our community (or whatsoever community on this matter) have given their daughters right in any property division? It is a law I guess ???
And unfortunately the saga continues after the marriage and till death :-(,
Nothing should and can justify any form of torture for the reason of somebody's greed. The issue has to be dealt with decisively. The possible tool is making girl child self sufficient. I'm sure the communitiy elders and leaders have more bright ideas for this. But the key is their implementation.

Another interesting twist I found from some place on net: the reverse-stories.
Where groom side has denied for any form of dahej, but still some street-smarter ladies tries to use the biased anti-dowry laws to implicate them(groom and entire family) in false cases once these ladies fail to adjust in the new family for one reason or the other. These instances dilute the actual pain these laws were originally errected for. We should also condemn these for two reasons -
1. It is an insult to those who are real sufferers.
2. It discourages people from saying NO to dahej, which is deterimental to the cause.

All these views are mine and may have some factual misunderstandings, anybody is welcome to correct.

Comments ?

[rkumar]

This issue has many dimensions and is not an easy one. Let me share my personal experience of getting married to clear few points;

When I got engaged, my in-laws told that being arya samaji, they would want only five baraties. I said that it will be exatly FIVE and no more and no less. On the wedding day me, my brother, my br-in-law, my father and one my uncle reached the wedding venue at exactly 12 noon. The very guy ( my would be br-in-law) looked astonished and asked , " bas paanch barati ?"..I told YES because this is what he wanted...I could see his hanging face.. We five baraties were totally lost among the crowd of others attending the wedding...My wife used to call me names for such a useless barat and she never forgave me till her end..... There was no baja nothing... I followed the arya samaj code in words and spirit. It was one rupee wedding in every possible sense, missing all the glamour.. However, my wife regretted it all her life.. I agreed with her feelings that it could have been made a bit more memorable... which amounted to more expenses from both sides... Don't know what one would call that...dowry or waste of money...I leave it to all of you to decide.. Trust me, no girl likes a simple wedding...Girls want for tamasha/ show off in their wedding than the men..

RK^2

[raj2rif]

This issue has many dimensions and is not an easy one. Let me share my personal experience of getting married to clear few points;

When I got engaged, my in-laws told that being arya samaji, they would want only five baraties. I said that it will be exatly FIVE and no more and no less. On the wedding day me, my brother, my br-in-law, my father and one my uncle reached the wedding venue at exactly 12 noon. The very guy ( my would be br-in-law) looked astonished and asked , " bas paanch barati ?"..I told YES because this is what he wanted...I could see his hanging face.. We five baraties were totally lost among the crowd of others attending the wedding...My wife used to call me names for such a useless barat and she never forgave me till her end..... There was no baja nothing... I followed the arya samaj code in words and spirit. It was one rupee wedding in every possible sense, missing all the glamour.. However, my wife regretted it all her life.. I agreed with her feelings that it could have been made a bit more memorable... which amounted to more expenses from both sides... Don't know what one would call that...dowry or waste of money...I leave it to all of you to decide.. Trust me, no girl likes a simple wedding...Girls want for tamasha/ show off in their wedding than the men..

RK^2
Dear Rajendra Ji,
I totally agree with you about the girls wanting more show than boys. I guess, while the event is one of the life time, one does not mind spending as per his/her capabilities, but to say lay down certain terms for wedding that is what is evil.
I remember my room mate in the hostle was getting married to a Tavathia girl. It was difficult for me to go as a Barati to a tavathia family. My own Phopha Ji's younger brother was there from the girl's side. The case was very interesting. The boys father had asked the brides father to look after the Barati's very well and no other demand. The grooms father also said to bride's father that he will bring exactly those number of baratis as they can look after well, and since most of his baratis will be coming far flung places, they will not be bringing beddings with them. Since the wedding was in Feb, the grooms father requested them to let him know as to how much baratis they can provide with bedding and look after them well. The bride's father said no limit bring as many as you want. The groom's father said that we have a list of about 175 people and we can cut it down to any number you said, but the only demand is all who come should be looked after well including providing them with beddings. The bride's father said no problem. Guess what, we had no beddings. And in the winter, we just spent the night by getting some sugercane leaves and burn them to keep the cold away.
Some times this also happens.

[brad]

very nicely put Manoj. Adding to it:
Hindu system does provide a mechanism for tranfering property to the girl child and its very fair way of doing it: it is called dahej.

After marriage the girl leaves the house and very likey the village too. Giving dahej at time of marriage ensures the father that the daughter got her fair share. This gives peace of mind to the father. I am ssuming father is the person whom u can trust to be most fair. After his death, u never know what others will do to the property. Also, since the girl does not stay at home, it becomes difficult to keep tab on things at fathers home.
ANother reason I say its fair is bcos, the girl has contributed to the house only upto the time she gets married. After that she contributes to her own new home. So, she should not get anything from family income incurred after that. This is fair to the brothers as they will be toilling and contributing to the very end and it will be their wives who will be the new shareholders in the house.

[ishwarlamba]

Dear All,
This dowery related issues are because of communications. Also I feel middle path gives long lasted results. For example these issues should be discuused in family meetings. Young people like Daughters and sons should be involved in the decision process. Should discuss how to spend less money and find the ways how to share or cut expenses of the other party.
I give a example. two years ago we married our daughter in USA. Before going from Australia to USA, we wanted to arrange a party in Australia. We hired a school hall, decorated ourself and cooked all food for 500 people at home with the help of friends and friends only served the food. As raw material is very cheep, it was very economical.
When we go to India, how money is wasted on food having so many stalls.
I request others also to give ideas
regards
Ishwar Lamba

[sunildahiya]

Mukesh Ji from where you pick this ratio

don't demand for dowry because 926/1000


This is wrong

In haryana this 670/1000 and different in every state.I think in jat community it will be 800/1000 app.

[raj_rathee]

I had something to say on the dowry issue on post #45 in the following thread.

http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7588

Here it is copy and pasted here.

There is always a lot of fuss made about this business of dowry. It would
be interesting to understand its historical origins and how this concept came about.
I am wondering that perhaps the concept may not be all that bad in and of itself.
That it gets abused is another matter !

I think traditionally the following have held true:

1) Girl got married and left to live in husband's household.
2) Concept of divorce was pretty much non-existent. Girl lived and died in
in-laws family no matter what ( and the guy was stuck with her no matter what).
(So these chains were there from both sides).
3) Girl did not take her share of her parent's property, but could assert her
right on her husband's share in case of his death.
4) Marriages generally tended to take place between economically and socially equals. That is to say property holding in parent's family and husband's family
were, on average, balanced.
5) In lieu of girl not taking her share from her parent's, there has been a time
tested social obligation on behalf of her brothers to always look after her, stand up for her, and provide her with gifts (often in the form of clothes, money, etc)
on special occasions and in general interactions.
6) Further, in lieu of her not taking her share, she sort of got a lump sum
(furniture, goods, maybe cash etc) in the form of dowry.

Given all this it seems to me to be a time tested and well balanced act
of giving her a fair share, not only in monetary terms but more
importantly in social/security terms whereby her brothers are
socially obligated to stand by her and for her, forever and ever.

Not only that, it has been a reliable way of maintaining land holdings
(a Jat's primary wealth tradionally) in a localised manner which is better for
everyone in the long term (I guess).

So I think that this whole concept of dowry is not as foul as it is often made
out to be. Sure we may need to adapt to the changing realities of our times,
and adjust our practices accordingly, but let us try to keep the above in mind.

I have often found that the practices that have held through centuries
past have often good rhyme and reason to them. They may become
outdated over time and the challenge is to intelligently mould current
day practices to be as sensible as the old practices may have been for
our ancestors.

[priti]

I agree with Raj, every system starts well intentioned and is usually based on common sense of the existing setup and power equations- jiska palda bhaari wohi rules banata hai. What I am curious about is the question which underpins dowry: why was the female given away in marriage? It could be due to patriarchal character of the society because its the sons who carry the family lineage and it is the males who are head of the families.

To give a different perspective, there are some matriarchal societies in Africa (and i have heard even in some tribes in India), where women are the heads of the families and keep more than one husband. Maybe because they have completely different understanding of life....maybe because they consider reproduction as the most important aspect of life and at the centre of that is the female.

Coming back to the dowry system, since the female leaves her family, the house she is used to, her old setup, usually to fulfill a traditional norm, her parents (who usually love her equally as their sons) through dowry ensure that she is comfortable in the new setting by giving her money, furniture, clothes and what say....

what becomes problematic in this system is when the parents start giving money, or stuff for the groom and his family! The underlying purpose of this is to obligate the guys family into treating their daughter well....what is not understood is that this can immensly disturb the delicate power equations in a family...and the results could go from normal to haywire situations depending upon the nature and character of people involved.

In a more modern setting (not always and everywhere), we find this tradition in the gift catalogues of modern weddings...where the bride and groom choose the things they might need and their friends and families choose the things from this catalogue according to their pockets....helps the newly wed couple to get established without having the burden of buying everything and without putting the burden on one party (in case of our dowry system....the girl's parents) to provide everything.

Going back to our traditions...i find the concept of 'Seedha' very interesting....again, its just a social provision - how its utilised is varied....It could be just a way of keeping in touch, getting some news and small gifts from your bhai, bhabhi or bhateeja....or it could be a source of complain....again the problem is one-sidedness of the tradition...why dont the buas send gifts for their brothers and their families...makes it much more balanced...

I dont think I am ever going to get 'seedhas' in the old sense, but i would definitely like to keep in touch with my nieces and nephews...even if it means sending online gifts to them....

Dowry should be the same...it is a social provision...the spirit of the tradition should be kept in mind...it could be given from both sides to make the 'couple' comfortable with their new life....

[radhikachhillar]

I agree with Raj, every system starts well intentioned and is usually based on common sense of the existing setup and power equations- jiska palda bhaari wohi rules banata hai. What I am curious about is the question which underpins dowry: why was the female given away in marriage? It could be due to patriarchal character of the society because its the sons who carry the family lineage and it is the males who are head of the families.

To give a different perspective, there are some matriarchal societies in Africa (and i have heard even in some tribes in India), where women are the heads of the families and keep more than one husband. Maybe because they have completely different understanding of life....maybe because they consider reproduction as the most important aspect of life and at the centre of that is the female.

Coming back to the dowry system, since the female leaves her family, the house she is used to, her old setup, usually to fulfill a traditional norm, her parents (who usually love her equally as their sons) through dowry ensure that she is comfortable in the new setting by giving her money, furniture, clothes and what say....

what becomes problematic in this system is when the parents start giving money, or stuff for the groom and his family! The underlying purpose of this is to obligate the guys family into treating their daughter well....what is not understood is that this can immensly disturb the delicate power equations in a family...and the results could go from normal to haywire situations depending upon the nature and character of people involved.

In a more modern setting (not always and everywhere), we find this tradition in the gift catalogues of modern weddings...where the bride and groom choose the things they might need and their friends and families choose the things from this catalogue according to their pockets....helps the newly wed couple to get established without having the burden of buying everything and without putting the burden on one party (in case of our dowry system....the girl's parents) to provide everything.

Going back to our traditions...i find the concept of 'Seedha' very interesting....again, its just a social provision - how its utilised is varied....It could be just a way of keeping in touch, getting some news and small gifts from your bhai, bhabhi or bhateeja....or it could be a source of complain....again the problem is one-sidedness of the tradition...why dont the buas send gifts for their brothers and their families...makes it much more balanced...

I dont think I am ever going to get 'seedhas' in the old sense, but i would definitely like to keep in touch with my nieces and nephews...even if it means sending online gifts to them....

Dowry should be the same...it is a social provision...the spirit of the tradition should be kept in mind...it could be given from both sides to make the 'couple' comfortable with their new life....



Agree with you dear.

[priti]

yeah, not everything in the world is black and white.....much of it is grey...and its the subtle variations (or menaings and understandings which we assign) which make it black or white.