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Thread: Jats in Indian epics

  1. #181
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    what is the meaning of yagna? the yagya. the yajya.
    was it just like burning a few sticks in ghee as arya samajis do in a closed room or hall?

    by the way I'm staunchest arya samaji.

    my common sense says that it was burning of forests or clearing them after iron was invented by Jats.

    what was maha yagya? I suppose it was clearing of big forests to practise agriculture to create surplus grains to maintain huge armies, as much as Alexander turned back fearing these cool and calm armies, of Nandas, the Nandal Jats.

    Otherwise else the counter question is there, what yagna was according to the grammer/history?

    and according to all the grammers Jat itself was born and others fell from Mars/Aero-plane.

    grammers define Jat: jis ki jati maaloom na ho
    grammers define Jat: jo ki gyat ya agyat ho
    traditional meanings define jat jo ki surajmal ke time pe paida hua ho aur nahar singh to marna bhi kahin door shaayad paida hi na hua ho?

    n e way I thank Burdakji, for taking pains, to start such threads, like Jats in maharashtra, orissa, mp, south india, etc.

    but in single stroke, the reason was Jatisation. No logic can deny it.

    wherever Indo-european language is found, Jat has to be found there in near or distant past.

    Janak of Mithla himself praticed agriculture i.e. Hull. Sita was born from....
    Why and what was these agriculturist Jats were doing there, in these Mahajanpadas?

    aur ek ye bhi research ka vishay hai ki jitne bhi meaning in Ajatshatruon ne adopt kiye ye saare hi Jat rahe honge.

    Like Yudhithilla, the gotta, ruling over Indpatt.
    Last edited by bharti; December 15th, 2006 at 08:13 PM. Reason: 5posts merged

  2. #182
    Aap harek thread ka satyanash kar dete hein... sometimes your incoherent posts are humorous, but most of the times they are irritating... instead of writing oneliners every other minute, plz write all of them together, so that they dont clatter threads... plz.

    -vinod


    Quote Originally Posted by sktewatia View Post
    aur ek ye bhi research ka vishay hai ki jitne bhi meaning in Ajatshatruon ne adopt kiye ye saare hi Jat rahe honge.

    Like Yudhithilla, the gotta, ruling over Indpatt.

  3. #183

    Movie Song

    There is a line in a song from the movie " Rangeela " starring the desirable Urmila Matondkar and cocky Aamir Khan :

    " DUNIYA BOLEY TO MAZAA HAI, NAA KAHO KHUD KO RAJA "

    I hope that makes sense to the eminent historians on this forum.

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by sktewatia View Post
    what is the meaning of yagna? the yagya. the yajya.
    was it just like burning a few sticks in ghee as arya samajis do in a closed room or hall?

    by the way I'm staunchest arya samaji.

    my common sense says that it was burning of forests or clearing them after iron was invented by Jats.

    what was maha yagya? I suppose it was clearing of big forests to practise agriculture to create surplus grains to maintain huge armies, as much as Alexander turned back fearing these cool and calm armies, of Nandas, the Nandal Jats.

    Otherwise else the counter question is there, what yagna was according to the grammer/history?

    and according to all the grammers Jat itself was born and others fell from Mars/Aero-plane.
    Cool and calm armies.:D
    You make fire sacrifice Tewatia ji?

  5. #185
    Bus asse comments ki hi kammi thi... pahle se hi Jaton se purvajo ne apni history ka bahut khyaal rakha hai aur ab jo thode bahut log interested hain unko asse item log chain nahi lene denge...
    If you can add anything relevent to the thread plz do otherwise save these wisecracks for somethign else. Yahan koi raja/mantri nahi banane aata. Everyone is trying to understand history out of curiosity and arguments are integral part of discussions.

    -vinod

    Quote Originally Posted by amitrajora View Post
    There is a line in a song from the movie " Rangeela " starring the desirable Urmila Matondkar and cocky Aamir Khan :

    "DUNIYA BOLEY TO MAZAA HAI, NAA KAHO KHUD KO RAJA "

    I hope that makes sense to the eminent historians on this forum.

  6. #186
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    Ramayna story is nothing but its compacting family system of Jats in the age of Mahajanpadas. Jats till today all over the world are having biggest families and relations through the full calculations of gots etc. Its a story when people living in thick jungles around Ganges were being braught into the fold of Jatisation/Aryanisation. Jats were mixing with them. And sometimes wide opposition was there. Somewhat similar situation what prevails in seven sister states today was there. When we hear of King Janak of Mithla ploughing the land himself (with Gold Hull), it does mean that the land has been recently cleared for agriculture by burning the forest by mahayagna, and Jats are practicing agriculture there. During practicing of agriculture as was the fold of Jats, their got and family system was being taught to local tribes there. Similar way Jat (Indo-European) languages were taught to them.
    Last edited by sktewatia; December 15th, 2006 at 11:56 AM.

  7. #187

    Smile Calm down Plzzzzzzz !

    Tewatia Sir, Vinod Bhai,

    History section at jatland is only section where i always see some serious and constructive discussion otherwise in other sections members just try to pull one another's legs only. I know you both are mature enough and plz just stick to the subject what you are discussing. I can't participate here as i don't know history in such depth that you guys are discussing but everyday i read your posts for sure and try to update my knowledge about our history.

    Lets come out with some positive conclusion after the discussion.

    Hope you won't mind.
    It's better to be alone than in a bad company.

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by vijay View Post
    Tewatia Sir, Vinod Bhai,

    History section at jatland is only legs only. I know you both are mature enough and plz just stick to the subject what you are discussing. I can't participate here as i don't know history in such depth that you guys are discussing but everyday i read your posts for sure and try to update my knowledge about our history.

    Lets come out with some positive conclusion after the discussion.

    Hope you won't mind.
    Exactly Peace

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by vinodks View Post
    Bus asse comments ki hi kammi thi... pahle se hi Jaton se purvajo ne apni history ka bahut khyaal rakha hai aur ab jo thode bahut log interested hain unko asse item log chain nahi lene denge...
    If you can add anything relevent to the thread plz do otherwise save these wisecracks for somethign else. Yahan koi raja/mantri nahi banane aata. Everyone is trying to understand history out of curiosity and arguments are integral part of discussions.

    -vinod
    I apologise for my light hearted remark. However, my intention was to have some objective analysis. What I have seen here on this forum is that many of us have decided the end result first and are then gathering "facts" to support the so called hypothesis. Myths and fairytales are being taken as serious references. Allegations such as " The reports on studies on skulls were not made public" are voiced. I would love to have some solid hard evidence to support that. There are many good lawyers available in our community who could follow up why the report, if it existed ,was hushed up.

    DNA analysis is a tool available these days for a reasonable amount of money. Could we have some DNA studies to back up our hypotheses ? let us not go by names and the language one speaks. For example one of our ex prime ministers could speak nine languages.Names are also not a reliable source of ancestory.

    Ancient (and modern too) India was a melting pot in the true sense of the word.People were migrating from one place to another for n number of reasons.It really seems incredible that a group of people retained large fertile land holdings in a very important part of India for nearly upto 5000 years !!!( I read somewhere on this forum 3012 BC)

    I hope I am not asking for too much. By the way I am not an historian or even a student of history.

  10. #190
    There is nothing wrong with a heated discussion. We call it a debate.

    The idea is for people to explore and test the limits of the theories they propound.

    In that way, as any scientific researcher knows, a critical review takes place, and a theory is proven or disproven.

    This discussion should be taken in the same spirit.

    As for, going by what “ duniya’ says, we Jats have a problem, that this ‘ duniya’ does not seem to know anything about our history, or when it does claim some knowledge, it is expressed in denigratory or derogatory terms .

    The efforts by our historians, veteran or budding, have to be seen in that light.

    Our research will go often against what the ‘ duniya’ thinks.

    Once upon a time, in the West’ the duniya’ used to think the world was flat. The ‘ duniya’ now thinks the world is round. Scientific proof was rejected for the longest time, but was ultimately accepted. As an aside, the proof the world was round was already known to Indian astronomers, thousands of years ago. Why were these proofs rejcyted then, and even now.

    An inclination to prejudice and dogma in the ‘duniya’ did not allow ‘facts’ to prevail.

    If the Jats do not wish their history to be recorded or propagated, they deserve what the “duniya” says.

    At the same time, most of us are beginners, and have no clue about our history and culture. There is nothing wrong with that.

    That is only to be expected, as our educational systems had been wiped out, and our store, our archives of knowledge and history, had been burnt to the ground.

    Here we are trying to reconstruct our history.

    There will be many dead ends, many blind alleys that we will go down, in our path to reconstruction.

    That should not deter us.


    Our efforts are to reconstruct our history and change what ‘ duniya’; thinks.

    Please try and encourage those who wish to explore our history, rather than discourage them.


    Ravi Chaudhary

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by amitrajora View Post
    I apologise for. Allegations such as
    ? let us not go by names and the language one speaks. For example one of our ex prime ministers could speak nine languages.Names are also not a reliable source of ancestory.

    Ancient (and modern too).People were migrating from one place to another for n number of reasons. ars !!!( I read somewhere on this forum 3012 BC)

    I hope I am not asking for too much. By the way I am not an historian or even a student of history.

    Amit

    With respect you are asking for a bit much.

    Could I gently take you to task, with your permission?

    You write:

    1. “ What I have seen here on this forum is that many of us have decided the end result first and are then gathering "facts" to support the so called hypothesis.”


    2. “Myths and fairytales are being taken as serious references”

    Request> Can you substantiate that?

    3. " The reports on studies on skulls were not made public" are voiced. I would love to have some solid hard evidence to support that. There are many good lawyers available in our community who could follow up why the report, if it existed ,was hushed up.”


    Request> Do you know any lawyer who will help?

    4 “ DNA analysis is a tool available these days for a reasonable amount of money. Could we have some DNA studies to back up our hypotheses”.

    Request> where do we start and how? Besides how do DNA studies, address cultural and linguistic issues?.


    5.’ India was a melting pot in the true sense of the word’

    Question Was it? One could argue otherwise too. Look at the vast differences between the people of Punjab and for example Nagaland, or Mizoram?


    6.”. It really seems incredible that a group of people retained large fertile land holdings in a very important part of India for nearly upto 5000 years?”


    Response> doesn’t it?

    Now this proposition can be explored in depth. Are they the same people, same genes, same culture or did things change, and if so what?

    Amit and others, one hopes we see the kind of problems that can get thrown up.

    As for not being a student of history, as soon as one takes an interest in History, one becomes a student.Welcome to the fraternity.

    Hiow far will that interest take one, is upto the individual.The rest of us can and will help.

    If anyone wished to discuss these aspects, please start another thread.

    Please let the current one be.


    Ravi Chaudhary

  12. #192
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    Jat and Jat are same. they just can not be distinguished

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by sktewatia View Post
    Jat and Jat are same. they just can not be distinguished
    they are indentical like identical twins.

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by smeker View Post
    they are indentical like identical twins.
    like Ramayna and Mahabharta?

    they are also like identical twins that Jats gave to this world?

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by sktewatia View Post
    like Ramayna and Mahabharta?

    they are also like identical twins that Jats gave to this world?
    i dont know if Ramayana or Mahabharata are identical but are more complementary to each other.Were the action of these books is happend?

  16. #196
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    Idumm Jatvedse indunn mummumm.
    Idumm Agnaye idunn mummumm.
    Idumm somaye idunn mummum.

  17. #197
    Tewatia ji, is it some puzzle? Kabhi to hosh-havaas mein likha karo.

    My guess is this is some part of some hymn from Rgveda. And another guess is you mean to highlight Jatvedse has something to do with Jat. Jatvedse/Jatvedah word is frequently referred to in RV(atleast 20times) and Gita. E.g. one such verse is

    3.1.20 http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rvsan/rv03001.htm

    महान्ति वर्ष्णे सवना कर्तेमा जन्मञ-जन्मन निहितो जातवेदाः ||
    जन्मञ-जन्मन निहितो जातवेदा विश्वामित्रेभिरिध्यते अजस्रः |

    which means-

    [To thee who art of old these songs, O Agni, have I declared, the ancient and the later. These great libations to the Strong are offered: in every birth is Jatavedas stablished.

    Stablished in every birth is Jatavedas, kindled perpetual by the Visvamitras. May we rest ever in the loving-kindness, in the auspicious grace of him the Holy.]

    Whats is Jatvedah? as per lexicon http://www.vedabase.net/j/jata

    jāta-vedaḥ — from which all the devotee's desires are fulfilled; SB 5.7.14

    jāta-vedasam — a fire covered by ashes in Vedic ritualistic ceremonies; SB 5.10.5

    jāta-vedaḥ — O fire-god; SB 5.20.17

    jāta-vedāḥ — the producer of wealth or of all necessities of life; SB 8.5.35

    jāta-vedāḥ — meant for material enjoyment according to the Vedic principles; SB 9.14.46

    jāta-vedāḥ — fire personified; SB 10.10.28

    Meaning changes with respect to context, even though sanskrit rules are inherently context-free http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Context-free_grammar

    'Indun' has to do with moon, 'idam' of course means 'this'... I dont know what this piece of verse means though...
    People have done careless scanning of vedic texts with desire to hunt down Jat word... but it wont yield much... as we discussed before jat history should go beyond Jat word... history of people, their habbits, culture and custom rather than literal similar sounding names... thats also is important aspect but with carefulness...


    Jatvedah has nothing to do with JAT... well, as per this sources...

    -vinod


    Quote Originally Posted by sktewatia View Post
    Idumm Jatvedse indunn mummumm.
    Idumm Agnaye idunn mummumm.
    Idumm somaye idunn mummum.
    Last edited by vinodks; December 23rd, 2006 at 06:36 AM.

  18. #198

  19. #199
    Those who are interested can subscribe to online journal or read it online... its free.

    http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs/issues.html

    -vinod

  20. #200

    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by sktewatia View Post
    Idumm Jatvedse indunn mummumm.
    Idumm Agnaye idunn mummumm.
    Idumm somaye idunn mummum.
    Ye Sanskrit hai !

    Agni Dev, Som Dev aur Jats jo vedon mein likha hai !

    Am i wrong Tewatia Sir ?
    It's better to be alone than in a bad company.

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