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Thread: Common migration origins of Jats and Gujjars.

  1. #1

    Common migration origins of Jats and Gujjars.

    Hello everyone,
    I am starting a new thread, that will try to explore the common migration origins of Jats and Gujjars. These are people who share a lot in common. Going into the past might be an exciting Journey. I will contribute as much time as i can, i am going to be bit slow, so i kindly request other distinguished learned scholars to shed some light in this perspective.
    Last edited by maddhan1979; February 2nd, 2013 at 03:38 PM.

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    AbhikRana (April 4th, 2013)

  3. #2
    Due to geographic location of "Jats", it seems, "Jat" migration happened after "Gurjar" migration. One commonality is the presence of common gotras of "Jats" and "Gujjars". "Chauhan", "Panwar" etc. Interestingly one of the "Jat gotra" is "BadGujar".
    http://www.jatland.com/home/Badgujar
    Jats seem to have migrated from very north of India. The fable of "Jats" emerging from the jata of Shiva might have some fact behind it. We have family names like "Malik" in Kashmir as well. There is a place called "Gillgit". I am not sure, what this word really means but again "Gill" is a "Jat" family name.

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    krishdel (March 17th, 2013)

  5. #3

  6. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by maddhan1979 View Post
    Due to geographic location of "Jats", it seems, "Jat" migration happened after "Gurjar" migration. One commonality is the presence of common gotras of "Jats" and "Gujjars". "Chauhan", "Panwar" etc. Interestingly one of the "Jat gotra" is "BadGujar".
    http://www.jatland.com/home/Badgujar
    Jats seem to have migrated from very north of India. The fable of "Jats" emerging from the jata of Shiva might have some fact behind it. We have family names like "Malik" in Kashmir as well. There is a place called "Gillgit". I am not sure, what this word really means but again "Gill" is a "Jat" family name.
    "Jats seem to have migrated from very north of India": Correcton: "Jats seem to have migrated into Bharat from very northern areas of Bharat" another view can be "These tribes were living from North western part of India till all the way up to central Asia" as these tribes were involved in agriculture and cattle rearing, it is possible they were taking their cattle for grazing into vast planes of central Asia. As per the agriculture, areas near harappa and mohanjodaro had plenty of water due to river Indus and river Saraswati. This situation could have contributed to development of Agriculture in this region.

  7. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by maddhan1979 View Post
    Due to geographic location of "Jats", it seems, "Jat" migration happened after "Gurjar" migration. One commonality is the presence of common gotras of "Jats" and "Gujjars". "Chauhan", "Panwar" etc. Interestingly one of the "Jat gotra" is "BadGujar".
    http://www.jatland.com/home/Badgujar
    Jats seem to have migrated from very north of India. The fable of "Jats" emerging from the jata of Shiva might have some fact behind it. We have family names like "Malik" in Kashmir as well. There is a place called "Gillgit". I am not sure, what this word really means but again "Gill" is a "Jat" family name.
    I agree with the common origins of Jats and Gurjars. One can perhaps add Rajputs too into this mix.

    About the bold though, how did you decipher that the Jat migration happened after the Gurjar migration based on geographic distribution of the communities?
    Pagdi Sambhal Jatta..!

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    maddhan1979 (April 17th, 2013)

  9. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by swaich View Post
    I agree with the common origins of Jats and Gurjars. One can perhaps add Rajputs too into this mix.

    About the bold though, how did you decipher that the Jat migration happened after the Gurjar migration based on geographic distribution of the communities?
    I am working on the fact that major "Jat" origin is in "Scythians". Last known migration of "Scythians" was in 4 century.

    Few facts are :
    1. Scythians never went too deep into Bharat to their extreme they went all the way up to Mathura, maybe a bit further. Jats rarely exist outside this boundary and even if they exist their migration to outer areas have been very late in history.
    2. Scythians were horse born warriors. The family name "Han" connects with people who were horse born warriors. So "Chauhan" if we break this word it becomes "Chau+han". Chauhan is a gotra for "Jats", one can say there were other "Hans" in history as "Changez Khan", but "Jats" do not seem to connected to other "Hans", rather are more closer to Scythians. Althoug due to wars and other adverse conditions "Jats" married into other blood but if u look at majority Jat blood, their facial features, built and other physical characteristics to do not point to Mongoloid huns or "Changez Kahn Huns".

    As per the question on Rajputs, i have stated some facts about Rajputs that came into my knowledge from a Rajput friend of mine. U will have to search these facts from another thread. Rajputs have arisen from the same group of people but again if u are living in a society few hundreads of years ago and you hold a status of being a warrior in society then u need to fullfil some sterotypical image building actions and if u have to rise above the normal everyday warrior then u have to do even more. Therefore such actions needed help of other communities such a priests (in past religion dominated people' lives more strongly). The Rajput friend of mine told me about a yagya that was performed which converted people of different communities to a Rajput, therefore you can find Rajputs with family names common to Jats, Gujars, Brahmins etc. Where as Jats and Gujars hold their own geographic location and clan system.

    Few things are needed to be a warrior Unity, clear thought, common thought and a centralized vision. All these facts are in "Jat" blood, these factors were recognized by different kings and army generals throughout history and "Jats", were used as warriors in different armies. In Old times, the people we know as today "Jats" either fought each other among themselves or sacrificed their loyalty to outsiders. This never let them to rise at a common foreground as a single united force, lot of other factors such as wars in the name of religion, dignity,etc. took away their remaining strength. Most of the times in history warriors have never been able to use a logical brain to see a wider picture, they were always living at the level of survival in any role as a farmer or as a warrior. Both these roles whether that be farming or being a warrior needs unity and lot of people to work.
    Last edited by maddhan1979; March 20th, 2013 at 07:54 AM.

  10. #7

  11. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by swaich View Post
    I agree with the common origins of Jats and Gurjars. One can perhaps add Rajputs too into this mix.

    About the bold though, how did you decipher that the Jat migration happened after the Gurjar migration based on geographic distribution of the communities?
    Gurjars are present more south than Jats in India. This means they were earlier migrants.

  12. #9
    We must remember in Europe, history revolves more around Christ and after Christ. History before Christ and pre history is little talked about, where as we talk easily about pre history and before Christ history there fore the context of Slavic tribes and other migrating tribes remains very contextual. When i say, contextual, i mean to say, at what point of time, which tribe was where, lived at that place for how much time and what was that tribe doing there at the point of time.
    Last edited by maddhan1979; March 20th, 2013 at 06:08 AM.

  13. #10
    In the past, keeping genealogy was the work of priests or special people such as "Bhats" who were kept and paid to keep the geneology or clan history or family history. Warriors never had time to keep these records as they were always involved in fights and wars. Now, how this geneology was kept, recorded and shown to public totally depended on the keepers of this geneology. So ancient geneology has to be carefully seen and understood to take out relevant facts from biases, mythologies and molded (facts changed by record keepers) facts.

  14. #11
    It is pathetic and Ironic, that Jats and Gurjars form majority in north and north western India, Pakistan and Afghanistan. Yet, due to geo political situations throughout ages, they were never able to rise above the religious identity and form one communal entity. Both of these tribes throughout ages have been used in one form or the other. Their original tribal identity was changed due to religious identity in the form of first Islamic conversions then most Jats took to Sikhism to defend the country and then separation of Pakistan from India.

    It is still more pathetic that these same people are used to kill each other in the form of armies, as these people for ages have formed a big segments of any Army in north western India, Pakistan and Afghanistan. It will be good to see return of muslim Jats and muslim Gujjars (and other related tribes who trace their origins to these tribes)to original Khap system and align with their root clans, so future generations know, WHO WE ALL ARE and WHERE WE COMING FROM. We can not succeed until and unless we rise above any kind of religious identity.

  15. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by maddhan1979 View Post
    It is pathetic and Ironic, that Jats and Gurjars form majority in north and north western India, Pakistan and Afghanistan. Yet, due to geo political situations throughout ages, they were never able to rise above the religious identity and form one communal entity. Both of these tribes throughout ages have been used in one form or the other. Their original tribal identity was changed due to religious identity in the form of first Islamic conversions then most Jats took to Sikhism to defend the country and then separation of Pakistan from India.

    It is still more pathetic that these same people are used to kill each other in the form of armies, as these people for ages have formed a big segments of any Army in north western India, Pakistan and Afghanistan. It will be good to see return of muslim Jats and muslim Gujjars (and other related tribes who trace their origins to these tribes)to original Khap system and align with their root clans, so future generations know, WHO WE ALL ARE and WHERE WE COMING FROM. We can not succeed until and unless we rise above any kind of religious identity.
    If northwestern tribes of Bharat keep on sticking to their strong and orthodox religious identities, North western part of India will always be in turmoil. In this changing time of technology and economics, it will only bring misery to people of North Western Bharat, as this is the most densely populated part of Indian subcontinent. It will stop development of these areas in the form of investments and education.

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    AbhikRana (April 4th, 2013)

  17. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by maddhan1979 View Post
    If northwestern tribes of Bharat keep on sticking to their strong and orthodox religious identities, North western part of India will always be in turmoil. In this changing time of technology and economics, it will only bring misery to people of North Western Bharat, as this is the most densely populated part of Indian subcontinent. It will stop development of these areas in the form of investments and education.

    Why did " Jats" and "Gujjars" converted to muslim religion? In the past it was good to convert warriors or the people who really fought, rather than fighting them. It is an interesting fact warriors and artisans were the people who converted most to muslim faith. Warriors provided resistance and artisans provided tools and equipment for army.
    There are hardly any other community who went through this mass scale conversion.
    Last edited by maddhan1979; April 4th, 2013 at 02:30 PM.

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    AbhikRana (April 4th, 2013)

  19. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by maddhan1979 View Post
    Why did " Jats" and "Gujjars" converted to muslim religion? In the past it was good to convert warriors or the people who really fought, rather than fighting them. It is an interesting fact warriors and artisans were the people who converted most to muslim faith. Warriors provided resistance and artisans provided tools and equipment for army.
    There are hardly any other community who went through this mass scale conversion.
    Friend,

    As far as I know, for conversion of people many factors play their role in more or less degree but no exhaustive pattern could be presented. The allurement for pelf and power sharing, the threat of death to helpless prisoners, the upward hierarchical swing in social standing etc. are assigned as some of the reasons.

    For example, Sometimes the usual practice adopted by some of the over zealot rulers in dealing with the war prisoners was to compel them either to accept Islam or face massacre as is evidenced by the treatment meted out to Gokula Chaudhary and his associates [1669-70] and Banda Singh Bahadur and his over 700 co-prisoners of war in 1716 AD.

    But to say that certain caste or community men converted to Islam and others did not would be over simplification of solving the riddle pertaining understanding of the complex problem of conversion to Islam, Buddhism or Sikhism or any other religion. The case to case and situation to situation objective conditions have to be analysed with the help of micro level studies by fixing the time period and locale limitations in each case separately. This type of study can preferably be taken up by sociologists, ethnographers and other than history scholars in better way.
    Last edited by DrRajpalSingh; April 4th, 2013 at 11:10 PM.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  20. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    Friend,

    As far as I know, for conversion of people many factors play their role in more or less degree but no exhaustive pattern could be presented. The allurement for pelf and power sharing, the threat of death to helpless prisoners, the upward hierarchical swing in social standing etc. are assigned as some of the reasons.

    For example, Sometimes the usual practice adopted by some of the over zealot rulers in dealing with the war prisoners was to compel them either to accept Islam or face massacre as is evidenced by the treatment meted out to Gokula Chaudhary and his associates [1669-70] and Banda Singh Bahadur and his over 700 co-prisoners of war in 1716 AD.

    But to say that certain caste or community men converted to Islam and others did not would be over simplification of solving the riddle pertaining understanding of the complex problem of conversion to Islam, Buddhism or Sikhism or any other religion. The case to case and situation to situation objective conditions have to be analysed with the help of micro level studies by fixing the time period and locale limitations in each case separately. This type of study can preferably be taken up by sociologists, ethnographers and other than history scholars in better way.
    Dr. Janghu, u are right on this issue. I stated this fact on my observation. The point is not about religion, the point is about one of the major reasons. It was hard for me to see muslim brothers from many communities. I could not find any, it somehow seemed there were no conversions in certain communities in India and that was a big question of Why?

  21. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by maddhan1979 View Post
    Dr. Janghu, u are right on this issue. I stated this fact on my observation. The point is not about religion, the point is about one of the major reasons. It was hard for me to see muslim brothers from many communities. I could not find any, it somehow seemed there were no conversions in certain communities in India and that was a big question of Why?
    I admit that I have given just general observations on the issue. This is just to share with you that if you study the conversion of the people of Jammu Kashmir from Hinduism to Buddhism in Ladakh region and in other parts of the state to Islam or conversion of Hindus to Sikhism from pre-partition Punjab or change of religious beliefs through the ages in modern Haryana region, very clear picture would emerge that no community or caste remained unaffected by the forces of changes in religio-cultural, political and economic conditions of the day to accept newer religions and discarding their earlier religious identity.

    Therefore, need of caution. The sweeping statements without relevant data at our command may lead to wrong interpretations and faulty conclusions, which must be avoided when discussing such emotive issues.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  22. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    I admit that I have given just general observations on the issue. This is just to share with you that if you study the conversion of the people of Jammu Kashmir from Hinduism to Buddhism in Ladakh region and in other parts of the state to Islam or conversion of Hindus to Sikhism from pre-partition Punjab or change of religious beliefs through the ages in modern Haryana region, very clear picture would emerge that no community or caste remained unaffected by the forces of changes in religio-cultural, political and economic conditions of the day to accept newer religions and discarding their earlier religious identity.

    Therefore, need of caution. The sweeping statements without relevant data at our command may lead to wrong interpretations and faulty conclusions, which must be avoided when discussing such emotive issues.

    It is interesting to know "Jats" have clans like "Roria" and "Khatri". Ror is a community and so is Khatri. It seems these communities are part of Jats. As in ancient times Jats were not Jats but "Jute" or "Jut" a very big tribe.

  23. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by maddhan1979 View Post
    It is interesting to know "Jats" have clans like "Roria" and "Khatri". Ror is a community and so is Khatri. It seems these communities are part of Jats. As in ancient times Jats were not Jats but "Jute" or "Jut" a very big tribe.
    Friend,

    Misty haze of the ancient history of the emergence of various caste/community groups cannot be gauged clearly with basing our assumptions on alike sounding few words or many words. Solid research work based on all available tools of research are to be applied to test any hypothesis. Till then, no use of deducting any inference on the issues like one we are going to deal with here.

    Thanks.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  24. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    Friend,

    Misty haze of the ancient history of the emergence of various caste/community groups cannot be gauged clearly with basing our assumptions on alike sounding few words or many words. Solid research work based on all available tools of research are to be applied to test any hypothesis. Till then, no use of deducting any inference on the issues like one we are going to deal with here.

    Thanks.

    U are right but linguistic meaning of the words are the base of any kind of deduction in linguistics related with social sciences. Deductive reasoning is one of them. So if u break the language it leads to root words and any root word arises from a common origin.A easy examplei is : Lot of words like "Raghuvanshi", just mean, people who are from same clan as some named "Raghu", whether that be a king or some common person ( Raghu + vanshi). Again "Raghuvanshi" does not hold a singular value therefore it can not be the origin or "the root word". This also means the original word of these people is something else, which should hold a singular value. That is mostly the clan name or the tribe name or the family name.

  25. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by maddhan1979 View Post
    U are right but linguistic meaning of the words are the base of any kind of deduction in linguistics related with social sciences. Deductive reasoning is one of them. So if u break the language it leads to root words and any root word arises from a common origin.A easy examplei is : Lot of words like "Raghuvanshi", just mean, people who are from same clan as some named "Raghu", whether that be a king or some common person ( Raghu + vanshi). Again "Raghuvanshi" does not hold a singular value therefore it can not be the origin or "the root word". This also means the original word of these people is something else, which should hold a singular value. That is mostly the clan name or the tribe name or the family name.
    It seems that the core group of people remain as "Jat" as lot of other family names are coming out of the "Jat" or "Jutt" origin.

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