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Thread: Rod/Ror community in Haryana (India Today article)

  1. #1

    Rod/Ror community in Haryana (India Today article)

    I just came across this article from India Today about Rod/Ror community in Haryana. To me it seemed factually incorrect based on my understanding and readings. Can somebody confirm or deny these. I know Dr Rajpal Singh has written a book on Rod itihas and can point us to the right direction.

    The article writes about Sadashiv Rao Bhau to have been killed in the battle which does not seem correct.
    The article also writes about remaining Marathas forming the Rod community, which does not seem correct since Rod community goes much further back in time before any Marathas.

    This article appeared in Jan issue of India Today:

    http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/h.../1/168685.html
    - Naveen Rao

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    DrRajpalSingh (December 2nd, 2012)

  3. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by nrao View Post
    I just came across this article from India Today about Rod/Ror community in Haryana. To me it seemed factually incorrect based on my understanding and readings. Can somebody confirm or deny these. I know Dr Rajpal Singh has written a book on Rod itihas and can point us to the right direction.

    The article writes about Sadashiv Rao Bhau to have been killed in the battle which does not seem correct.
    The article also writes about remaining Marathas forming the Rod community, which does not seem correct since Rod community goes much further back in time before any Marathas.

    This article appeared in Jan issue of India Today:

    http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/h.../1/168685.html
    It has nothing to do with History of Rods. This issue is raised by some political minded people had raised a Rod Maratha political party, contested elections for Haryana Assembly and Parliament and lost both forfeiting their security deposit from the Rod dominated area. Now it has been dissolved and merged with BJP with the entry of this outfit's leader Mr. Verma.

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  5. #3
    Thank you. What a mess they have created, I was not aware of this.


    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    It has nothing to do with History of Rods. This issue is raised by some political minded people had raised a Rod Maratha political party, contested elections for Haryana Assembly and Parliament and lost both forfeiting their security deposit from the Rod dominated area. Now it has been dissolved and merged with BJP with the entry of this outfit's leader Mr. Verma.
    - Naveen Rao

  6. #4
    There are a lot of confusing aspects about the article. While the wiki page on Ror community doesn't mention the Marathi link, the India Today article lists a lot of common aspects between the Ror community and Maharashtrians. While a love for horses and preferring rice over wheat could be just a coincidence, how does one explain the Marathi surnames and their cries of 'Chattrapati ki Jai" ?

    Another thing confusing in the article is that the original group of Maratha soldiers who founded the Ror community seem to have numbered around 500. The current numbers of the community is around 6,00,000. There seems to be a remarkable rate of reproduction to reach such huge numbers in 250 odd years!

    If indeed the two researchers are accurate, then maybe a small section of the community near Panipat draws its lineage from the Maratha soldiers but probably not the entire 6 lakh of them.
    Pagdi Sambhal Jatta..!

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    DrRajpalSingh (December 2nd, 2012)

  8. #5
    Dr Raj Pal already gave expert's opinion. He has conducted extensive research on this topic. For details read, "Ror itihaas ki jhalak" by Dr. Raj Pal Singh, Pal Publications, Yamunanagar (1987)

    Quote Originally Posted by swaich View Post
    There are a lot of confusing aspects about the article. While the wiki page on Ror community doesn't mention the Marathi link, the India Today article lists a lot of common aspects between the Ror community and Maharashtrians. While a love for horses and preferring rice over wheat could be just a coincidence, how does one explain the Marathi surnames and their cries of 'Chattrapati ki Jai" ?

    Another thing confusing in the article is that the original group of Maratha soldiers who founded the Ror community seem to have numbered around 500. The current numbers of the community is around 6,00,000. There seems to be a remarkable rate of reproduction to reach such huge numbers in 250 odd years!

    If indeed the two researchers are accurate, then maybe a small section of the community near Panipat draws its lineage from the Maratha soldiers but probably not the entire 6 lakh of them.

  9. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by deshi-jat View Post
    Dr Raj Pal already gave expert's opinion. He has conducted extensive research on this topic. For details read, "Ror itihaas ki jhalak" by Dr. Raj Pal Singh, Pal Publications, Yamunanagar (1987)
    I read that in the posts above.

    Rajpal ji, did you find any Marathi connections - shared surnames, traditions like these researchers? Is there a better explanation?
    Pagdi Sambhal Jatta..!

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    DrRajpalSingh (December 2nd, 2012)

  11. #7
    इतिहास में हम यह भी पढ़ते हैं की जब मराठा सेना लड़ाई हार गई तो उनके साथ आई उनकी औरतों बच्चो को महाराजा सूरजमल ने सुरक्षित वापिस महाराष्ट्र पहुचाया , जो जाट सैनिक उन्हें छोड़ने गए थे वे वहीँ बसा लिए गए जहां पर आज उनकी खाप को जाट 22सी के नाम से जाना जाता हैं । अब यहाँ कितने मराठा सैनिक जिन्दा बचे और बचे भी तो इतने थोड़े समय में इतनी आबादी कैसे हो गई ? वैसे यहाँ रोड़ अपने आप को मराठा मानते हैं जैसे राजपाल जी ने बताया की एक रोड़ वीरेंदर मराठा ने मराठा नाम से पार्टी भी बनाई थी । अभी कुछ महीने पहले इनका कोई प्रोग्राम था जिसमे इन्होने भाजपा के मराठा नेता गोपी नाथ मुंडे को बुला रखा था ।
    "कर्म हैं जिसका भगवान, कौम वतन पर हैं जो कुर्बान |
    पगड़ी का जो रखे मान सच्चे जाट की यह पहचान ||


    कुछ हमारे संग चले आये गे .कुछ देख के रंग ढंग चले आये गे .बाकी बचे होके तंग चले आये गे !

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  13. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by swaich View Post
    . There seems to be a remarkable rate of reproduction to reach such huge numbers in 250 odd years!
    और आबादी बढाने के लिए बदनाम कर रखे हैं मुसलमान .....
    "कर्म हैं जिसका भगवान, कौम वतन पर हैं जो कुर्बान |
    पगड़ी का जो रखे मान सच्चे जाट की यह पहचान ||


    कुछ हमारे संग चले आये गे .कुछ देख के रंग ढंग चले आये गे .बाकी बचे होके तंग चले आये गे !

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    swaich (December 2nd, 2012)

  15. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by RavinderSura View Post
    इतिहास में हम यह भी पढ़ते हैं की जब मराठा सेना लड़ाई हार गई तो उनके साथ आई उनकी औरतों बच्चो को महाराजा सूरजमल ने सुरक्षित वापिस महाराष्ट्र पहुचाया , जो जाट सैनिक उन्हें छोड़ने गए थे वे वहीँ बसा लिए गए जहां पर आज उनकी खाप को जाट 22सी के नाम से जाना जाता हैं । अब यहाँ कितने मराठा सैनिक जिन्दा बचे और बचे भी तो इतने थोड़े समय में इतनी आबादी कैसे हो गई ? वैसे यहाँ रोड़ अपने आप को मराठा मानते हैं जैसे राजपाल जी ने बताया की एक रोड़ वीरेंदर मराठा ने मराठा नाम से पार्टी भी बनाई थी । अभी कुछ महीने पहले इनका कोई प्रोग्राम था जिसमे इन्होने भाजपा के मराठा नेता गोपी नाथ मुंडे को बुला रखा था ।
    Friend,

    Before the year, 2000, none of the Rods/Rorsmade any mention of their connection whatsoever with the Marathas. This could be proved by the fact that in his interview based data collection that Prof. Dileram {Now retired from DAV College Karnal} had conducted a wide range of survey to collect data for his dissertation for the award of M.Phil degree from KU Kuruksehtra.


    A personal note:
    Prior to it in 1985-87 to collect data for mybook, I had visited over 50 villages in Haryana and UP belonging to Rodcommunity and consulted/interviewed people of Rod leadership of the day including Ch. Ishwar Singh, Ex Speaker of Haryana Vidhan Sabha, Ch. ShivRam Varma, former BJP leader and Rod community stalwart from Jhanjhari village near Karnal [the father of the protagonist of the new link with war ravaged Maratha ancestor theory], the then President and former surviving presidents of the All India Ror Mahasabha and other intellectuals and common people too. I had also gone through the recordskept by the Jagas [bards], the traditional record keepers of the community and found no mention whatsoever on the issue that has of late surfaced to the fore. We had gone to the house of Desh RajJaga in his village near Jaipur and he was also kind enough to lay out his all records before us for further verification. The rgazetteer records,Ibbetson.s book and Archaeological Survey of India Report as well as other extanct data was also taken note of during the course of study. Sarva Khap records in the possession of Ch. Kabul Singh were also scrutinized at that time.

    However, not sufficient material was availableto compile a full book. Therefore, it was decided to put the material as aglimpse of Ror History in the form of a small booklet i.e. Ror Itihas kee EkJhalak so as to stimulate research on the topic under discussion.
    To be contd…p. 2/-

  16. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by swaich View Post
    There are a lot of confusing aspects about the article. While the wiki page on Ror community doesn't mention the Marathi link, the India Today article lists a lot of common aspects between the Ror community and Maharashtrians. While a love for horses and preferring rice over wheat could be just a coincidence, how does one explain the Marathi surnames and their cries of 'Chattrapati ki Jai" ?

    Another thing confusing in the article is that the original group of Maratha soldiers who founded the Ror community seem to have numbered around 500. The current numbers of the community is around 6,00,000. There seems to be a remarkable rate of reproduction to reach such huge numbers in 250 odd years!

    If indeed the two researchers are accurate, then maybe a small section of the community near Panipat draws its lineage from the Maratha soldiers but probably not the entire 6 lakh of them.
    Friend,
    {Please read part I of the post above.}

    My comments on the issues raised in the post are :

    There is no similarity/synchronous among the gotras or names of the present day Rods/Rors with the Marathas.

    E
    ven today, except a microscopic few, do not subscribe to the Maratha origin of the Rods.

    The notion of using so called Chhatarpati ki Jaihas no relevance in finding the pedigree of a community. I do not claim sole proprietorship on the history ofRods but can say with confidence that none of the Maratha survivors in 1761Panipat battle remained in northern part of Nurbada as is recorded in thecontemporary sources extensively used by Dr. G S Dardesai, Dr. H R Gupta, Dr. KR Qanungo, Dr. J N Sarkar et, all.

    Duringcollection of material for my Ph. D dissertation I found that after thedissastor of Panipat where major chunk of officers and leaders includingSadashiv Rao Bhao were killed, thousands of survivours were able to reach theterritories of the Jat ruler of Bharatpur in a very wretched condition.

    Maharani Kishori, the consort of MaharajaSurajmal, took over the charge to look after these Marathas. She personally looked after the arrangement to provide them humanitarian aid, necessary medicines to the ill and food to the starving lotl and when they were able to recover from the illnessand fatigue for taking further journey, they were seen off by giving them expenses to be borne in their home ward journey. The detail of her good work is recorded in by a anonymous Marathi record of the 18th century --Bhao Bakhar. {for details, see, Dr. Raj Pal Singh, Rise of the Jat Power, 1988,Delhi}.

    The then Maratha leadership including Peshwa is said to have acknowledged with due respect the contribution of the Jat Maharani towards saving lives of over50,000 Marathas who had received kind hospitilty and personal attention.
    The myth that Bhao escaped death at Panipat andremained alive is not tenable in view of the contemporary records kept atPeshwa Daftar, Poona and other evidences recording his death in the battleground. [See book by Hari Ram Gupta on Third battle of Panipat)

    If the love of some Rods for horses isindication of their lost link with the Marathas, then what about ancient postHarappan people of India and also of Persia or Scythia of the yore. So it is ashallow link in the same way as is the case of sneezing. For instance, when achild sneezes in Bhiwani district villages, the elders compliment by saying: Chhattarpati Sedh Masani, Gurgoan wali Rani!In the adjacent Jhunjhunoo district the complementation is Chhattarpati aansn msi, mahare tabber ka pet salayi and also useChhattarpati makkhawalir/tatijawali mai,….

    On thisbasis can we conclude that the inhabitants of Bhiwani / Jhunjhunoo districts are descendants of Chhatapati Shivaji or Maratha survivours of Panipat battleof 1761.

    In fact, the word Chhatarpati is used to denote the local dieties ie Sedh, Masani, Gurgon/Tatija/Makhar wali Rani which are represented as Shakti or Parvati the consort of the Shiva. They have nothing to do with Shivaji or his dynasty assuming Chhattarpati title.

    To conclude, if the well financed research project to establish connection between the Rods and Marathas is based on the sound historical evidence, then it would be a nice addition in the history of the country. In the end, I welcome efforts of the Rod-Maratha Jagriti Manch led by Shri Virendra Varmaji and his team's latest attempt to unveil the lost pages of history of one of the rural communities residing in some parts of Haryana and UP.

    We hope to hear some path breaking news of solid sources based history of Rods from the Manch..


    Thanks
    Last edited by DrRajpalSingh; December 2nd, 2012 at 02:50 PM. Reason: spellings

  17. #11
    Thank you setting the record straight and clearing some of the facts, most important being that Sadashiv Rao Bhau was killed in the 3rd battle of Panipat, which I was not aware of previously.

    There is another tendency nowadays to ascribe 250 villages to Rors in Haryana alone in addition to villages in western UP. In another place I have seen 270 as the number of villages where Rors live currently. It always seemed quite exaggerated number but I never had any way to ascertain that.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    Friend,
    {Please read part I of the post above.}

    My comments on the issues raised in the post are :

    There is no similarity/synchronous among the gotras or names of the present day Rods/Rors with the Marathas.

    E
    ven today, except a microscopic few, do not subscribe to the Maratha origin of the Rods.

    The notion of using so called Chhatarpati ki Jaihas no relevance in finding the pedigree of a community. I do not claim sole proprietorship on the history ofRods but can say with confidence that none of the Maratha survivors in 1761Panipat battle remained in northern part of Nurbada as is recorded in thecontemporary sources extensively used by Dr. G S Dardesai, Dr. H R Gupta, Dr. KR Qanungo, Dr. J N Sarkar et, all.

    Duringcollection of material for my Ph. D dissertation I found that after thedissastor of Panipat where major chunk of officers and leaders includingSadashiv Rao Bhao were killed, thousands of survivours were able to reach theterritories of the Jat ruler of Bharatpur in a very wretched condition.

    Maharani Kishori, the consort of MaharajaSurajmal, took over the charge to look after these Marathas. She personally looked after the arrangement to provide them humanitarian aid, necessary medicines to the ill and food to the starving lotl and when they were able to recover from the illnessand fatigue for taking further journey, they were seen off by giving them expenses to be borne in their home ward journey. The detail of her good work is recorded in by a anonymous Marathi record of the 18th century --Bhao Bakhar. {for details, see, Dr. Raj Pal Singh, Rise of the Jat Power, 1988,Delhi}.

    The then Maratha leadership including Peshwa is said to have acknowledged with due respect the contribution of the Jat Maharani towards saving lives of over50,000 Marathas who had received kind hospitilty and personal attention.
    The myth that Bhao escaped death at Panipat andremained alive is not tenable in view of the contemporary records kept atPeshwa Daftar, Poona and other evidences recording his death in the battleground. [See book by Hari Ram Gupta on Third battle of Panipat)

    If the love of some Rods for horses isindication of their lost link with the Marathas, then what about ancient postHarappan people of India and also of Persia or Scythia of the yore. So it is ashallow link in the same way as is the case of sneezing. For instance, when achild sneezes in Bhiwani district villages, the elders compliment by saying: Chhattarpati Sedh Masani, Gurgoan wali Rani!In the adjacent Jhunjhunoo district the complementation is Chhattarpati aansn msi, mahare tabber ka pet salayi and also useChhattarpati makkhawalir/tatijawali mai,.

    On thisbasis can we conclude that the inhabitants of Bhiwani / Jhunjhunoo districts are descendants of Chhatapati Shivaji or Maratha survivours of Panipat battleof 1761.

    In fact, the word Chhatarpati is used to denote the local dieties ie Sedh, Masani, Gurgon/Tatija/Makhar wali Rani which are represented as Shakti or Parvati the consort of the Shiva. They have nothing to do with Shivaji or his dynasty assuming Chhattarpati title.

    To conclude, if the well financed research project to establish connection between the Rods and Marathas is based on the sound historical evidence, then it would be a nice addition in the history of the country. In the end, I welcome efforts of the Rod-Maratha Jagriti Manch led by Shri Virendra Varmaji and his team's latest attempt to unveil the lost pages of history of one of the rural communities residing in some parts of Haryana and UP.

    We hope to hear some path breaking news of solid sources based history of Rods from the Manch..


    Thanks
    - Naveen Rao

  18. #12
    Another excellent post.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    Friend,

    Before the year, 2000, none of the Rods/Rorsmade any mention of their connection whatsoever with the Marathas. This could be proved by the fact that in his interview based data collection that Prof. Dileram {Now retired from DAV College Karnal} had conducted a wide range of survey to collect data for his dissertation for the award of M.Phil degree from KU Kuruksehtra.


    A personal note:
    Prior to it in 1985-87 to collect data for mybook, I had visited over 50 villages in Haryana and UP belonging to Rodcommunity and consulted/interviewed people of Rod leadership of the day including Ch. Ishwar Singh, Ex Speaker of Haryana Vidhan Sabha, Ch. ShivRam Varma, former BJP leader and Rod community stalwart from Jhanjhari village near Karnal [the father of the protagonist of the new link with war ravaged Maratha ancestor theory], the then President and former surviving presidents of the All India Ror Mahasabha and other intellectuals and common people too. I had also gone through the recordskept by the Jagas [bards], the traditional record keepers of the community and found no mention whatsoever on the issue that has of late surfaced to the fore. We had gone to the house of Desh RajJaga in his village near Jaipur and he was also kind enough to lay out his all records before us for further verification. The rgazetteer records,Ibbetson.s book and Archaeological Survey of India Report as well as other extanct data was also taken note of during the course of study. Sarva Khap records in the possession of Ch. Kabul Singh were also scrutinized at that time.

    However, not sufficient material was availableto compile a full book. Therefore, it was decided to put the material as aglimpse of Ror History in the form of a small booklet i.e. Ror Itihas kee EkJhalak so as to stimulate research on the topic under discussion.
    To be contd…p. 2/-
    - Naveen Rao

  19. The Following Likes this post:

    DrRajpalSingh (July 7th, 2013)

  20. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by nrao View Post
    Thank you setting the record straight and clearing some of the facts, most important being that Sadashiv Rao Bhau was killed in the 3rd battle of Panipat, which I was not aware of previously.

    There is another tendency nowadays to ascribe 250 villages to Rors in Haryana alone in addition to villages in western UP. In another place I have seen 270 as the number of villages where Rors live currently. It always seemed quite exaggerated number but I never had any way to ascertain that.
    Friend,

    No village in India is exclusively inhabited by any one community. the same is true with the Rors in Haryana and UP. In UP a cluster of Ror inhabited villages is around Thana Bhawan in Saharanpur and a few villages towards Bijnaur. In Haryana, they are found inhabited with other caste men in several villages of the district of Karnal, Kurukshetra, Kaithal and Panipat.

    Thanks.

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