Jats in Indonesia ?

[saranrabar]

Buddhism and Hinduism shapped the Malaysian and Indonesian thinking prior to the late conquest by Islam.

It is said that most Indonesian and Malaysian ancient rulers are formerly of Indian origin.

To date many Sanskrit words and word roots are still used in Bahasa Malayu and Bahasa Indonesia.

Would it be possible that Jats are actually the former rulers of South East Asia?

After their defeat at Dehli in 1100-1200 C.E, where did the Jat rulers go?

Does the use of Jat Gotras as last name in foreign countries an indication that their ancestors are actually jats?

[lrburdak]

Hi Rabari I had earlier written an article on this subject on Jatland it is available on the thread http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7550. I am reproducing it below:

Sunda of Indonesia

Sunda are one of the largest groups of people yet unreached for Christ. Population of these people is 3065000. They live in the western portion of the Indonesian island, Java. This tropical island lies just northwest of Australia.

Although the Sundanese speak their own language, called Sunda (part of the Malayo-Polynesian family), many also speak Javanese. They are culturally similar to the Javanese, but set themselves apart by personality. They claim to be more open and informal than the Javanese.

Historically, the Sundanese culture has remained somewhat isolated. While the cultural influences of India were spreading across Southeast Asia in earlier times, they had little effect on the orang gunung (mountain people) of Java.

To be Sundanese is, ideally, to be a rice farmer. Unfortunately, many of the villagers do not own enough rice land to provide for their daily needs. Because of this, nearly all of the villagers engage in small trade, crafts, seasonal farming, or service occupations. Besides rice, other crops grown on dry land include corn, root crops, chili peppers, and tobacco. Coastal areas tend to have mixed economies of rice, fishing, and/or fish farming.

Sundanese villages contain between 1,000 and 7,000 people, and the houses lie clustered together. Homes are often built up on poles or stilts. The villages are separated by small agricultural fields.

Traditional values are still strong in the villages and represent a behavior code known as adat, (guidelines that were laid down by their ancestors). The purpose of adat is to maintain peace and unity inside the village, between people, and within the "cosmic whole," of which they are a part. Change is slowly coming to the villages, with new ideas being introduced to those attending work or schools in the cities. The power of adat tries to slow down these new influences. However, recent developments, such as television and improvement of countryside roads, are bringing changes that even adat cannot stop.

Though not much is known about the kinship system of the Sundanese, we do know that the line of descent is through both of the parents. There are also evidences that ancestor worship (worshipping the spirits of deceased ancestors) was practiced. While many people may be recognized as relatives, the nuclear family remains the primary unit. Homes are basically matrilocal, meaning that the married daughters' homes are located near the parents' house, if available land permits. The parents' home is usually inherited by the youngest daughter, who stays at home after she is married to care for her parents.

Social etiquette is taught by the mother; whereas, the father is responsible for the physical needs of the child. Perhaps this is the reason Sundanese children seem to have a spiritual connection with their mothers rather than with their fathers.

In the past, marriages were arranged by the parents. Today, however, young people make their own choices with parental approval. Wedding ceremonies consist of traditional rituals that represent a settled life founded by the rice goddess, Dewi Sri.

I have taken the above matter about SUNDA community from website with URL address-
http://www.joshuaproject.net/

History of Java

Indian scholars wrote about the Dvipantara or Jawa Dwipa Hindu kingdom in Java and Sumatra around 200 BC.

The Taruma kingdom occupied West Java around 400. Buddhist influence about 425.

The Singhasari kingdom fell to the Majapahit who allied with Mongols 1293 to defeat the Singhasari. The Majapahit then turned on the Kublai Khan's forces and drove them out. This established Majapahit hegemony over Java. There remain Hindu communities in Java. Today, the Tenggerese, some Osings, and to some extent the Baduis are still Hindus.

Under the influence of Hinduism and Buddhism, several kingdoms formed on the islands of Sumatra and Java from the 7th to 14th century. The arrival of Arab traders from Gujarat, India later brought Islam, which became the dominant religion after the collapse of Hindu and Buddhist Kingdoms.
When the Europeans came in the early 16th century, they found a multitude of small states. These were vulnerable to the Europeans, who were in pursuit of dominating the spice trade. In the 17th century, the Dutch emerged as the most powerful of the Europeans, ousting the British and Portuguese (except for their colony Portuguese Timor on the island of Timor). The Netherlands ruled Indonesia as a colony until World War II, first under the control of the Dutch East India Company (VOC), and then beginning in the nineteenth century directly by the Dutch government.
Central element in the nineteenth century of Dutch colonial rule, was the so-called Cultivation System, or Cultuurstelsel. This system of forced cultivations brought the Dutch and their Indonesian counter parts on Java enormous wealth. In a more liberal period of colonial rule after 1870 the cultivation system was abolished.

After 1901 the Dutch introduced the Ethical Policy, directed to democratic reforms and economic improvements. Under governor-general J.B. van Heutsz the Dutch established direct colonial rule throughout the Indonesian archipelago, thereby laying the foundations of today's Indonesian state.


Are SUNDA people jats from India ?

We know that SUNDA is a well-known gotra of Jats in India. I was interesting to know if these people of Indonesia have any relation with India. Have jats ever moved to Indonesia? The period of history given above pertains to that of the great Mauryan king Ashoka. Mauryas are considered by Jat historians as Jat rulers. Jats had adopted Buddhism during Mauryan Empire. My view is that the Sunda people of Java are Sunda jats of India.

I have one record of movement of Jats from India to far off islands is from a book written by Cap. Bhagwan Singh who was High commissioner of Fiji. He has been President of all India Jat Maha Sabha also. In his book MY FATHER’S LAND-FIJI he has written that-

“ It was sheer fate which took my grandfather, Ram Chander Singh, and grandmother, Padam Kaur, to the shores of Fiji Islands in 1885. It was a move, which broke with the strict conservative traditions of north-India family.
…. Emigrant ships had been sailing to Natal, British Guyana, Trinidad, the West Indies, and Dutch, Spanish and French colonies for the past 60 years when the first emigrant ship to Fiji, “Lewidas”, arrived on the 15th of May, 1879. It added 498 more Indians to the nearly 340000 already living in other far-flung British colonies.
…..It was the same route that any traveler takes today, crossing almost 1300 kms across the Gangetic plain, passing through Kanpur, Allahabad, Varansi and Patna. It was this area, east of Agra, where the majority of their fellow labours in Fiji would come from…..”

From the above version given by Cap. Bhagwan Singh it is clear that Jat families have been moving from India to Fiji through Indonesia taking a round of Australia. It is quite possible that Jats have moved to Indonesia in large number.

Can any member throw more light on relation between SUNDA people of Indonesia and SUNDA jats of India?

regards,
__________________

[kharub]

In my humble opinion this discussion is ill-founded ...

Has anybody ever seen a Javan or a Sumartan person ...... I have and worked with them closely in the past .................... there is no way they are even remotely related to Jats ........ just the mere physical characteristics will tell you that ......

they look as close to Jats as Kenynans to Swedish

[smeker]

Kharub ,thats call intermixing.Usualy migration from a country to another was made in small number.Sometimes a whole population can take the name of a small ruling elite-like the german franks give their name to the much more noumerous latin french.
I so a documentary abt some chinese settled in Africa 500 years ago. Guess what ,their descendents look very african,whit only some remote chinese features.Thats becose of intermixing. Or mongols tatars from Europe,many of them are blonde whit blue eyes. Or gypsy from Spain looking very much spanish.

[kharub]

I totally agree with you soka .. but the point is those "Chinese" Africans have intermixed so much that there is hardly any chinese trait left so they cannot be in any way claimed to be chinese ...

so the discussion should be "Jats migration or expedition to Indonesia in pre-historic or medival times" not "Jats in indonesia" .... there are no Jats in Indonesia ....

Jats have at the present time have nothing to do with Sumatrans or Javanese or Paupuans ....

[sktewatia]

like budhism spread from India to far east, similar was the case of Jatism. Indonesia was true india n asia. like mongols had khoja ojhlan (the got) of sir chhoturam similar was the case with Asians. how can we ignore them, they did follow us like in case of budhism, similar was jatism.......

a selfless religion only to be propagated in the name of humankind.....

[sktewatia]

I had many indonesians with me in my post graduate study at Roorkee. The symbol of education there (like saraswati in India) till today is Ganesh. They were all muslims but worshiping Ganesh. And its not that some of them out of choice were doing so. Its their national symbol.

I'd like repeat here again that Khan was not a muslim but Jat title. Till today we Jats have names like Malkhan Singh etc. Similarly many tenetes of Jats were absorbed in various religions. The most astonishing example is Shaolin Ninza. The Budhhist Jats (from India) were not expected to know such dangerous arts which they carried with them to china n taught them to chinese. till to day whole world considers them as chinese but in fact it was an art that belonged to Budhist Jat in India.

It reminds me the statement of J n Sircar that a Jat is Jat first. whether Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Christien, Bisnoi, Budhist, Jain, Kabir panthi, Udhas Panthi, Parsi,..Zoroatrian..., Dacian.., European............

[saranrabar]

I am aware of these two view points: (1) only Jats are people who are looking like most 2000 C.E. Jats (we do not know if our 2000 B.C. Jat ancestors were white or brown or yellow or black or blue); versus (2) Jats are anyone whith Jats Y DNA and mt DNA (gotras). It may be of interest if I explain why I find this subject (very) important.

Few years ago, I interacted with some French persons familiar with St. Croix>: http://www.societe-perillos.com/stcroixjarez11.html Because of my name (related to the place they think where their ancestors dwelt in the recent past), they wanted to know what I think about the origin of the name. After I told them what a Jat is and why gotras are important to Jats, one person mentioned the Templar of Portugal with some Tomar heritage, builders of magnificent churches: http://www.golisbon.com/portugal/cities/tomar.html”.

I kept explaining that they were talking about Christianity gothic looking architectures while I was talking about Indian Jat Gotras! I was of the type (1) “Hitler Jat”: to me, these blue eyed ladies with yellow hair cannot be Jats although their name is Rabary or Tomara.

Then, someone explained about the recent mt DNA researches, (http://www.geneticorigins.org/geneti...to/theory.html) and its consequences on the Jews. The Lemba tribe of South Africa and the Falasha tribe of Ethiopia are as black as any black African, but they claimed Jews heritage. Then came in the mt DNA analysis, which proved not only that they were indeed as pure Jews as any Russian Jews or Iranian Jews, but also to which tribe of Israel they each belong to: they are now active members of the World Jews Congress.

This some what opened my eyes and I now lean toward the type (2) “scientific Jat”. Now, every time I find a Jat gotra looking name, be it in America or Africa or Asia, I want to know if they are not my far removed relatives! I also want to know what other Jats think about it!!

The irony of the story is another twist: a group of Jews now advocate the idea that Jews are actually of Indian origin. They say that the biblical story of Abraham who introduced his wife Sarah (Jat Gotra!) as his sister to Pharaoh of Egypt is in fact the same story of the Hindu mythology, which says that Sarai-Svati is Brahm's sister http://www.viewzone.com/abraham2.html. Now, every time I see great scientific achievements across ages, I ask myself if these achievements were not the work of Jats related to my ancestors!

[smeker]

In 1930 the polish art historian Michael Sobesky in his book The exotic art ,talk abt so call "gothic" temples from Punjab and Kashmir.He observ the similarites betwin this temples and 400years later gothic arhitecture of Europe.Also he observ the striking similarites betwin buddhist art from Afganistan-Pakistan and later european gothic sculpture(including ascets,gaurquiles etc).However ,he think that all this are just coincidences.Similar mentalites of buddhist and christian followers give birth to similar art whit no conection.

[smeker]

I read some pages from a book who pretend that many names of places,mountains and rivers, from the begining of the Bible are match whit names of places,mountains and rivers from Pakistan.However i usualy dont belive in names similarites; in thousands of names you usualy find some identical ones by pure chance.The 4-5 letters in a word have few posibilites of mixing ,so is not imposible to find some identical by accident.For exemple my grand-father family name is Toma,but by no way i conected whit the name Tomar.probably just a coincidence,probably i can find this name anywere in the world,in Africa or America or pacific islands.
Yes proto-jats and schitians are depicted blue eye whit yellow hair.i dont think however they have anything to do whit yellow haired guys from Scandinavia or Russia.The climate of Central Asia is just as cold as Scandinavia so probably lead to the same genetic mutation favorised the guys whit less melanine.

[mann123]

really very interesting