Education quality and Gender Equality [Archive]

raj_rathee

November 17th, 2005, 02:02 AM

Folks:

Two threads of related interests (and of personal interest to me)
have been going on at Jatland:

Quality of education:

http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10361

and

Upliftment of Females:

http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10443

I think now could be a good time to come up with some concrete
suggestions that can be pursued at the government level. We currently have
Jatland member, Deepender Singh Hooda as a Haryana MP. And his
dad Ch. Bhupinder Singh Hooda as the the CM of Haryana.

This could be a good opportunity to thoroughly abuse them ! What I mean
is to take advantage of their positions and strong desire to make change,
and see if we can provide any valuable input that they can help implement.
I am sure they are already working on those lines, but our additional input
could further serve to mould their thinking and approaches.

The purpose here would be suggestions that would serve for policy and
government level implementation, rather than what independent group
and organisations (NGOs etc) could do.

If there are any takers for it I am willing to serve to co-ordinate this
discussion. (And I for my part will try to minimize any use of humor here. :D ).

The end result would seek to provide a written document that would
summarise the various approaches/ideas that we collectively come up
with, and provide this to Deepender...who still logs in from time to time.

While doing this we would have to keep in mind that suggestions should
be practical, in line with political considerations, with legal and
enforceable constraints etc. Any active members who are aware of these
issues (lawyers etc.) could serve to keep the discussion in check and in
line with such practical standpoints.

But for this to be successful we would need some good participation
from the memers here in the form of good critical and analytical
discussion.

Let me know if there is sufficient interest here and I'll kick it off.

vinodks

November 17th, 2005, 04:11 AM

Yeah kick it off. Dhisuuum!!

There are certain things where direct involvement of govt. can bring more effective and massive change than NGOs, because later is limited by resources, finance and workers. In this thread we can start developing kind of semi-formal appeal to D Hooda about this issue. Fringing of the subject, there was nice idea that Anmol suggested. We can also have a petition. As far I see, we can include two items in petition
1). female education and empowerment and
2). IT education in rural areas.(Having too many items in petition might underemphasize the main idea).

We can formulate exact wording of petition out of this discussion and other 2 threads and it can be refined by further discussion. And then it can be passed down to Hooda directly(because it will sound more sincere). It would be great if R K ji pitch in and help us.

http://www.petitiononline.com/petition.html

But beside this particular petition we might also end up with, as a by product, a draft of formal protocol of appealing and sending mass message to other politicians too in the region.

Petition is one aspect. By this way we can also know from D Hooda what govt is actually doing (plz somebody don't tell us what he said in parliament). Thats where 'right of information' act comes in. We can spread awareness about this so that people can have access to information of where the money gets spent. 2 crore for a contsy is LOT. Anyway I am sure people will have other ideas too. So come in, join us!!! Waiting are you for what???

-Vinod

devdahiya

November 17th, 2005, 08:17 AM

Bhai Raj aaj pehli baar kaam ki baat kahi chhore arr aatma ki baat kahun suun....i liked it hell of a lot. Be on these lines in future also...he,he,he...Kidding dear.

Education: The word sounds simple but reaching it in true sense needs interest, labour,keenness,motivation[internal and external] and ofcourse infrastructure coupled with good directing staff [both at the institutes and at home] and if that be the requirement then it is simple to list out the steps and inputs required to be gone into/taken.In Rural jat belts of Haryana/Rajasthan/UP and MP[specially in Haryana] education has become a big bussiness as thousands of schools mushroomings year after year like PAN shops in every street and corner with a sole aim of generating money.I have the firsthand information of a few schools where a certain amount of money is collected from the students who appear for the board exams towards facelitating mass copying.Part of this money so collected goes to the invigilaters and mass copying does take place. Here it will be pertinent to mention that the students are a happy party to this stupidity as they want to pass the exam by hook or crook.....this they do because for future admissions/jobs certificate is the key and not the mental inputs and as such these endorsements of grades/marks on these passing certificate are the bench mark. If that be so, first and foremost require ment will be TO CHANGE THIS ATTITUDE AND STALL THIS PRACTICE WITHOUT ANY DELAY.......SHORT CUTS ALWAY DOOM PEOPLE AND CIVILIZATIONS.

Then comes the teaching staff...In govt schools all teachers have lost interest[i am talking of those who have some self respect left and have knowledge of their subjects] A shade better students[those whose parents can afford to spend a little more or are in towns] land up in so called public schools and are a little better than their counterparts in Govt schools.In govt schools niether the students have any interest in learning nor the teachers inclined to teach...THIS IS THE TRUTH. Then teaching aids are missing as the funds allotted are siphoned off. buildings are in shambles and animals are grazing on the so called playgrounds. Amenities are hardly any and monitoring zero. Thus the sight is real pathetic and system needs overhaul by involving the govt agencies,NGOs,social groups,parents,public at lardge,Teachers and ofcourse the students and then the things must be monitored properly. Task is daunting but those brave people who have undertaken such challenges in past are respected and rememberd by one and all. IT IS TOTAL MUCK ALL AROUND AND YOU NEED THUNDERING RAINS TO CLEANSE THE ATMOSPHERE. More subsequently...................................... ...........!

raj_rathee

November 17th, 2005, 12:00 PM

Thanks Vinod and Dev Chacha. I am hoping a few more people
at least will pitch in and show some interest. This will
only be worthwile if we have wide range of views, and have
people willing to question and be critical of what
others have to say. A broad sprinkling of folks from
different competencies will be needed if we want to carry
this through. So lets see if we can get a quorum of 10-15
people willing to spend some time thinking this through.

I was thinking of two different approaches here, and I'll
outline these below. We can choose the one that seems more
effective.

The first approach would be to take a broad look at the
issues involved at a macro level and lay them out with our
suggestions for possible change. Personally I would not
favor this approach as it would come out as a pie in the
sky set of high level suggestions that might seem too
wishy washy. And I think the petition approach might
come out like that.

The other approach that I was more keen on was to come
out with something more concrete so that we can pretty much
spoon feed the "what to do" and "how to do" details of the
steps we propose. To this end I am thinking that we should
assume that we are the politician and the bureacrat handed the
assignment, and then think it through their position and
viewpoint of how to make it happen.

Further, what I would propose is that we bite only what we
can chew. And by that I mean we should simplify the task to
a smaller level so that not only we can view the entirety of the
problem, but also have a measurable means of tracking the end
results if indeed anything were to be followed up on.

From this perspective we perhaps should assume that we are
given a single village ( or at most a cluster of villages)
as a sort of "model" village (cluster) to which are suggestions
can be applied.

Given that we can assume that some additional resources in addiiton
to what is currently available maybe be provided.But we should
be realistic and not assume that we get anything we ask for. So
I would like to think through the issues with the assumption
that little additional resources are provided by the government
other than what is already currently allotted to a village.

I think if we break down the problems as above, think of
the issues at the level of a single village and with no
substantial additional resources...we might have some chance
of coming out with some meaning proposals.

And maybe at the end of all that it might be possible to actually get
"assigned" such a model village where the suggestions are implemented
to see if indeed they bring change. Hence some measurable metrics
would need to be proposed.

That is the broad overview of what I have in mind right now.
So lets poke holes in all this and see if we can agree on
some approach.

[Hopefully we get some additional contributors here who can
also provide the ground realities and keep us in check so we
don't end up in fantasy land. If that quorum doesn't happen
then we'll just dump the effort....]

devdahiya

November 17th, 2005, 05:44 PM

Raj dear, there are three stages an idea has to cross to be accepted by a cmajority ie Debate....redicule....and acceptance. Nothing on thids earth ever has been a success unless thoroghly rediculed and condemned and hence this idea too will have to pass through that very test of time if we want a wider, general acceptance. Let us debate it thoroghly. I will give my ground realities subsequently. Wish this topic a deliberate and lengthy churnings!

priti

November 17th, 2005, 09:53 PM

Hi Raj, Good thread indeed!

Some ideas which came to my mind to be included in your idea of a 'Green paper for closing gender and education gap in Haryana':

Sadly, gender discrimination starts right at the stage of conceiving a baby in our state, the first step the government can take is to crack down on the ultrasound clinics which are proliferating in cities and towns like Rohtak, sonipat. Obviously its hard to differentiate between real need and artifically created need of ultrasound technology but I'm sure the locals would know what goes on in which clinic.

Also, every clinic should have gender education provisions to inform the visiting clients on these issues...especially on girl child.

Second thing is to make education compulsory for all children (i'm sure its already compulsory but since the idea is to have a comprehensive road map, why to leave this out). But this education should come at a cost for most as people value what they pay for and free riders take things for granted. Within the secondary school curriculum, a course on Rights might help in attitude change. Making people aware of their civil and legal rights is a very useful and proven strategy of behaviour and attitude change. The course should also include 'Human Rights' which sensitises people to treat others with respect and dignity irrespective of their gender, caste, income. Lots of indians are working in the field of human rights and am sure designing a module like this would not be an issue if the government has firm resolution insolving these problems. Also, one main thing to be targeted is the Choudharaat attitude of jats with their own folks (i think some attitude is good for confidence and personality if practiced judiciously in the outside world....but whats the use of having this attitude with our own kin :rolleyes: ).

I think first and foremost requirement is a social survey of the situation in haryana villages. Any plan is only effective if its firmly grounded in the reality and known problems, any speculative assessment is as good as deathbed for good intentioned plans.

On a specualtive note, women should be represented and consulted on policy issues. I dont remeber which government introduced the no-alcohol policy in the state some years back...but i do remember that the women folk were pretty happy with that arrangement although it proved to unsustainable due to the inherent weaknesses of the system. I think consulting women should give policies a more effective and practical tone as you pointed out in your kofi annan's post that they are the locus of all development issues...

I seriously think the government should start with a study on current state of affairs on gender and education gap and then start a consultation process on this very important issue...thats the right way of doing it everywhere in the world.

Will write more as more things come to mind..

Goodluck!

vinodks

November 18th, 2005, 01:43 AM

IT IS TOTAL MUCK ALL AROUND AND YOU NEED THUNDERING RAINS TO CLEANSE THE ATMOSPHERE.....!

Reminds me Robert de Niro's dialogue in Taxi Driver

"Someday a real rain will come and wash all this scum off the streets."

Deb kaka, aapke idea to revolutionary hain... I agree you are sincere person for society... but we need focused discussion to do something... aur wasse Raj saheb ko bhasanh pasand nahi hai:)

-vinod

shokeen123

November 18th, 2005, 05:17 AM

raj_rathee

November 18th, 2005, 11:50 AM

Hi Raj, Good thread indeed!

Some ideas which came to my mind to be included in your idea of a 'Green paper for closing gender and education gap in Haryana':

Priti:

You brought up:
--------------------------------------------------------------
Suggestions:

o Cracking down on ultra sound clinics => keep sex ratio balanced
-- locals know what happens where, can point out clinics
abusing ultra sound technology
-- clinic should have gender education => guide potential
customers against aborting female child

o Make education cumpulsory for all children
-- It probably already is...at least on paper
-- Attach some cost to it => make it "appear valuable"

o Make knowledge of civil + legal rights part of curriculum
-- Includes issues of human rights (respect regardless
of caste, religion, *gender*, income)

o Carry out social survey to discover ground realities
=> have a solid foundation for any suggestions
-- govt. should have a comprehensive analysis
(consultative) on ground realties vis-a-vis
gender and education issues

o Consult women on social/policy issues

--------------------------------------------------------------

Some of my comments:

Regarding Ultra Sound Clinics:

I think over time in the recent past various laws
have been passed against sex determination. I have direct knowledge
in this regard. They are NOT working as of now. The only thing that
has happened is that now the doctors are charging a bit more. And the
customers are quite happy to shell out the extra bucks. It is probably
like Bansi Lals' prohibition (???). i.e. No change in attitude of
behaviour...just gave some people the opportunity to make a lot
more money.

I think making clinics provide gender education is a good idea. And
some system can be devised to ensure that it gets done. ** Please
provide some ideas of how to ensure that it gets done. **

In general my take on most social issues is not to try to *force*
people into anything but to *guide* people into making the
*desirable* choices on their own. To this end the education
aspect is a nice idea....and a theme that I would like to follow
in general in other issues to.

Make Education Compulsory

I think it already is. If its not it should be declared as such.
Enforcing it is again hard. How do you do it ? Again gotta make
the parents want to send their kids. And such parents usually are
the poorer ones in the first place who resort to child labour.

Make Civil + Legal Rights part of curriculum

I strongly agree with this one. I see such education (social behaviour,
environment issues, inter-personal, rights etc.) being provided
right from the get go (grades 1, 2 and onwards) here in the US and
Canada. And I can personally attest to its positive affects in the kids.

Carry out social survey

This is generally the approach to follow in an ideal situation. But
I would stay away from it for this specific purpose that we are looking
at under this thread. I'll discuss this a bit more in my next post.

Consult women on social/policy issues

Yes we should. The "how to" of this should be ironed out (logistics,
approach, information sought etc.). Got suggestions ? Again I would
look for specific guidelines for the *very specific* objective of this
thread.

raj_rathee

November 18th, 2005, 11:53 AM

Priti brought out some good points in her post. She
made some sugesstions that are broader in nature (abortion
clinics, broad based consultation/surveys...etc.). I think
these are great suggestions but I fear that the scope of all this
brain storming would be too large for us to undertake here.

My interest would be to really cut down the scope here
so that we can be more concrete and focussed and can come
up with some cookie-cutter suggestions that any able
administrator can implement right away.

So let scope it down as follows:

o We collectively are the *administrator* in charge
of implementation of the proposals.

o We are the sample target for any survey. Our common
experience reflects the issues need to be solved.

o We are provided a model village (call it "Harya"). Harya
is a typical Haryana village (mixed castes/professions/economic
strata etc. i.e. We are not talking about some far off tribal area.)

o Harya already has a school...upto 12th grade.

o We have free hand in adminisetring the school (teachers,
resources)...can seek transfer of those than do not meet
our needs etc...but can't fire them and so on.

o We have choice of two additional employees

o We have an additional budget of say 3 lakh rupess
(just trying to be conservative and realistic)

o Our only charter is over Harya and no where else. i.e.
We need to *only* consider gender+education issues in "Harya"

Lets take the above scoped down problem and come out with the
issues we need to solve. Subsequent to that we'll come up
with solutions. And for the solutions we need to come down with
the last detail of implementation. For instance, if we need
to do a survey than issues like who does it, who the target
audience is, how many in the target audience, what information is
sought, how is it used...and so on...At least I want to go into
that direction.

vinodks

November 18th, 2005, 12:13 PM

Hey Raj,

These points are good, no doubts but lets go step by step. First of all lets decide on 2 basic things.

-What is purpose of this thread? Nature of discussion very much depends on purpose.

-Out of discussion, we will emerge with to-do list. Who are doers? What resources we have? What is mode of operation?

I would say instead of going over all problem to make perfect a village. Lets target 1-2 most important ones. And then lets talk about specifics. General talks have been talked a lots of times. Same things have been talked earlier in many thread and Jatland-Seva people went through gruelling emails about this. They are important but we need to get out of general talks of problems.
There is no use talking of ultra-sound if we don;t have any plan of what we going to do about it in next 3-4 months. Life of a thread is max 2-3 weeks. To have a better follow up we need better and systematic approach, almost like an organization, which we don't have right now.

First of all, all serious people should put their cards on table and answer the most important question "What can I do?"

My card is this:

"I can't go to villages to do these things(except short time in vacation in which I will try my best). I can't donate. I can network, plan and discuss. I can give 30min daily"

Lemme me know how are you gonna use my resource?... lemme know what others can do? and we can first decide how we gonna use each of us and then we can talk WHAT we gonna DO.

If we aren't going to do anything about some problem, its no use to have gruelling session on that. Same issue will emmerge after few months and people will come up with renewed energy to post.

Bottom-up approach. First lets take stock of what we can do? then we will decide what to do.

-Vinod

raj_rathee

November 18th, 2005, 12:43 PM

Hey Raj,

These points are good, no doubts but lets go step by step. First of all lets decide on 2 basic things.

Good points Vinod. Some of these I had tried to address
above but lets be more concrete as you suggest.

---------------------------------------------------------------
You concerns:

o Purpose of the thread.
o Who are doers ? What resources do we have ? Mode of operation ?
o Problems we want to target ? Have specifics.
o Answer to the question "What can I do ?" or "What do i HAVE to do ?"
----------------------------------------------------------------

My comments:

My initial approach/requirement here is that all we
do is *THINK* and thats it ! No donations. No volunteer work !
Nothing. Just *think*.

Like I said, my motivation for starting this is that we have
someone in the government who we believe is receptive to what we
say. No NGOs. No charity organisations. Zilch. Zero. We already
got the government ! That is the assumption everything will be
based on.

My ideal situation is that Deepender Hooda/CM listens to us
and assigns a model village and an administrator and DOES exactly
as laid out. No questions asked. Resources as mentioned above.
So nothing out of the blue. No huge sums of money. Just an
administrator to oversee. 2 additional employees. An additional
3 lakh per annum spending money to carry out tasks.

The problems we want to target is education quality and gender equality.
10+2 School is already there. Teachers are already there. We just
need to ensure that students are getting QUALITY education.
It has to be MEASURABLE increase in QUALITY. So this will encompass
all aspects of education (ensuring teachers perform, ensuring children
and parents have a say, ensuring regular performance is measured and
evaluated with proper standards). We further need to define this problem
space based on feedback here. Hence I was proposing a problem definition
phase before we begin to seek solutions.

The problem of gender equality is a more general one. I would like
to tie this down more closely to the education of the female child and
ensuring that she gets it on par with the make child. Members should
provide what needs to be covered. Maybe we should limit it to education.

As mentioned before you or I don't have to do anything at all. We just
think and provide the implementation details to be followed by the
administrator. That is it.

[ Of course, if this were to be ever realised (and I hope it would)
we could serve as role models, career guides, guest lecturars
etc. on our India trips etc. on a strictly volunteer basis. No money.
No commitments etc. Just a common desire to make the "Harya" a successful
model village for EDUCATION and EQUALITY for THE FEMALE CHILD ]

That is the crux of my goal here. To just brainstorm around this
limited scope.

Let me know if I need to clarify further. Its good that we clearly lay
it out so that discussion don't keep on going at tangents. We need
to stick to exactly the charter we are laying out here and everyone
participating is agreable to it upfront.

raj_rathee

November 18th, 2005, 01:40 PM

Dear all:

I haven’t had a chance to review the entire discussion, had to take care of something urgent at the home front (Chhore ki college application), however, please count me in for whatever task I may be able to perform. Please also know this will not be possible without the involvement and or guidance of the experienced people with good insight, I am obviously referring to NAJC chapter.
More later…

Thanks Sujata. Looking forward to your inputs. You are right in that
guidance of the experienced people is the key here. As you will have
read from the previous posts, the key ingredient I am looking for here
is raw brain power. We need to be able to keep focused on the limited
scope of this thread's purpose and live with the assumptions made...
...and specifically live with *limited resources* as laid out already.

The key thing I will lay out here is that one of the most overlooked
resource here are *the students themselves*.

As a mum of college applicants you will have a tremendous amount
of knowledge and understanding about how the American system
of education uses the students themselves in their own education
as well as their direct involvement in their neighbourhood/society.

If that same resource can be channelled productively in the village
environment too (e.g. just as one example...senior female students
needing to do school projects that involve gender education
to village women...just off the top of my head...) then we'd
have a large resource right there ! So rather than whining about
lack of money for this and that we can find novel ways to reach
our objectives.

So perhaps one of the areas you could think about is providing
such avenues where the students themselves not only play a
role in their own education but also contribute to their village
("Harya").

devdahiya

November 18th, 2005, 05:32 PM

vinodks

November 18th, 2005, 09:14 PM

In that case I am afraid I won't be able to contribute much. Though I will follow up this thread and will pitch-in if needed. Everybody knows what we need to do to make a ideal village(all of us know about these problems).
And people can argue that instead of giving everything to village to make it perfect, it's better to attack most critical issue common in many villages. Its more important that 20 villages get atleast good education than one village gets all the attention.

Also its not wise to proceed to discuss a lot about model if we don't have assurance from D Hooda that he will listen to us. But go ahead, atleast some things will become clear after this thread.

And Dahiyaji, yeah first we have to change attitude. But thee is no pill that can do that and no amount of preaching will work if it is not accompanied by work. And no work can be done without good attitude. The way of this catch 22 is intervention outsiders like us through "work" notjust preaching. Old people in village preach youth about becoming "good", that doesn't work. Development work is indirect way to change attitude.

-Vinod

My initial approach/requirement here is that all we
do is *THINK* and thats it ! No donations. No volunteer work !
Nothing. Just *think*.

My ideal situation is that Deepender Hooda/CM listens to us
and assigns a model village and an administrator and DOES exactly
as laid out. No questions asked. Resources as mentioned above.
So nothing out of the blue. No huge sums of money. Just an
administrator to oversee. 2 additional employees. An additional
3 lakh per annum spending money to carry out tasks.

.

ajeetsingh

November 18th, 2005, 10:08 PM

hi all, i think bhupinder hooda is an educated CM.if he stays for some time he will do someting for the upliftment of women in haryana.recently haryana got its first women secretaryfor the first time in history.his son is also an educated man but i think haryana politics is based on uneducated rather that educated.the heart of jats is still innocent.they r still BHOLE.
every body knows that we have a gender bias society.when a son is born TAHLI BAJAI JATI HAI.it still happens.it all start from the birth.
why we all just talk about this.why donot we do some thing in this regard.charity begins from home.so lets do something for the upliftment of our matas and bahens.otherwise it wil continUe to bother us directly or indirectly.
TIME HAS COME TO ACT.
REGARDS
AJEET

raj_rathee

November 19th, 2005, 12:53 AM

In that case I am afraid I won't be able to contribute much. Though I will follow up this thread and will pitch-in if needed. Everybody knows what we need to do to make a ideal village(all of us know about these problems).

Vinod:

------------------------------------------------------------------
You point out:

o Every body knows what we need to do. We all know the problems.
o Why attention on one village and not many more
o Need for Hooda's assurance of action
------------------------------------------------------------------

My Comments:

Everybody knows what needs to be done :

I am not so sure about that. Everyone does know at a *very high*
level what the problems are (Teachers don't teach. Students don't
care. No resources/materials and on and on.)

But I will not agree that everyone knows what needs to be done.
Yes, people readily make sweeping statements (make education
compulsory, crack down on teachers and on and on). Yet no
one realy has an idea of what realistic practical solutions
could be devised that don't require massive upheaval of the system
to bring gains.

The impression I get is that no one has much of a clue. Everyone
just seems to want some God to land up and shake a magic wand
to fix the problems.

It was in this light that I felt that brainstorming while
keeping the assumptions squarely in mind might be the way to
go. My hope was for some thinking, and pardon the cliche,
outside-the-box.

Why attention on one village :

There is no such hard proposal. Why I would take this
approach is first just to keep the scope of our thought tightly
bound. An approach that works for one village would work for 20.
So that is not limiting in any way. If it were to get implemented,
then the govt. could could one or 20.

But anything different from the norm usually works well when
tested out on a smaller scale. If it works, expand...otherwise
learn from it.

Also, it is easier to convince someone to spend effort on
one village than 20 or 100. This approach would be no
different than some private enterprise introducing its
brand new product in a focused market. If it takes off
great, expand to other markets..otherwise revisit and improve
or dump it.

Need for Hooda's Assurance for Action

Would be great if we did. Currently we don't. If he logs
in he will hopefully have something to say.

But if I were in his place I would first say, "Show me what
you got. Lets hear your ideas and then I'll think about it."
No assurances till then ...(except if I was looking for votes
which I am not :D).

That is the way real world works. How can one give assurances
without knowing whats cooking ?

Further, even if Hooda says "Thanks but no thanks", it would
not be an entirely fruitless effort. The mere excercise
could enormously enhance our own understanding of the issues...
and if someone was interested in running their own school (for
instance) they might pick up valuable ideas....just an example.

Additional Comments :

My purpose for this is to solicit input and feedback. I don't
want to be thrusting my own ideas...but would rather like
to serve to co-ordinate and provide direction for the
discussion. So participation is necessary. If the feeling
is "Ah forget it. No use" then I'd like to not
spend my energy.

Personally I am not too great a fan of NGOs and volunteer
work etc as a means of making change. Just how many of
us here are REALLY likely to go out to the villages and
carry out these tasks. I don't think too many. Hence
I do not want to go in that direction of proposing that
we become foot soldiers. I know very well that I wouldn't.
Except for the once in a couple of years visit to a school
to meet the kids I wouldn't be able to do much else
at the ground level. So I want to stay realistic.

Yes when it comes to direct contribution we could
provide support in the form of guidance (career, academic,
written material ...etc...that I think we could do
on a volunteer basis.) and we would be open
to those suggestions as part of this discussion.

raj_rathee

November 19th, 2005, 01:20 AM

rathee chhore ibb meri baat dhyan te suniye...theek ?

first of all we have to change the mind set of our people in the villages which i suppose is not easy at all. People in the villages are of the opinion that if some one is coming to their village with some ideas/inputs to improve their lot....it is basically to gain some favours in turn and this is too deep a psych universally prevailing and it is not without a reason because invariabaly people in past had been using them. So first and foremost requirement is to win their trust before undertaking any venture out there.To do that we have to make them realse that whatever is being offered through an idea or venture has to be accompished by them only [villagers] and that only moral support will be offered because if you talk laud they waste no second to avoid you. It is also important to mention here that unless these people do things practically on ground via a blueprint provided by us, they will take it lightly and hence the key is to generate interest and curiosity so that they seek our advise and support willingly. To do that we have to get associated from a distance with local leadership of that village/area deeply involved and associated with the undertakings...be it towards improving education standards,health,hygiene,senitation, awareness of their rights and duties or for that matter any thing we wish to accomplish................................MORE LATER

Absolutely chacha. As we know our folks don't like bhasans. Nor do I. :D
But if I feel something is for my good and I *WANT* it then I'll lap it
up like a dog on a hot summer day.

I think one of the key aspect that would need to come out of any discussion
is to how to make the parents and the kids themselves responsible for
the education quality. They would need to become partners in anything
proposed. Its their education at stake.

The government servants can't be the *karta dharta* here. We know where
that ends. The driver would have to be the kids and parents. And for that
to happen a system would need to be in place where they get to have a say.

How that would happen would be a problem needed to be solved here.

shokeen123

November 19th, 2005, 02:51 AM

Unless we do some factual analysis we will not know what and how to improve, so I would tend to agree with Raj, as they say data is money? Secondly I agree with you all that, is to be overly ambitious will neither be realistic nor feasible. So let us first understand the psychology and economics of girl’s education.

“Bottom of the Barrel”

There is a group of girl-children that gets stamped unfortunate at birth. Simply put, these girls are the first casualty of illiteracy. They are born to poor families where the question is about next meal on the table vs. next day at school. They are far beyond our reach; and no matter how hard or what approach you try, it will be unfair to ask of further sacrifices from them. These are our Dhannos, Chhannos, Dhapatis, and Kelas and Santras. Unfortunately they are oblivious (sorry Binod….) to what anyone of us has to say. Fortunately, they represent a smaller contingency (unless I am wrong?)

“The Paanchvi Fails”

This group manages to attend middle school (perhaps even high school if there one, all-girls within the village) but they must also contribute to the overall functionality of the family unit, be it household chores (tend animals) or elaborate farming; therefore subject to continuous cost-benefit analysis. To a large extent they are willing participants until circumstances beyond their reach overwhelm them (no high school, family pressure to marry). They lack personal motivation as well as career guidance at the critical junction and since “high school education” alone doesn’t yield fruitful gains further education is considered waste - abstaining from field work must equal discernable economic gains for further consideration. Even though I was an exception (because of my family make up and my own need for independence), a lot of “Sujatas” fall into this group. This group needs high school education for nothing more than to aid in the bridegroom hunt! Once married, the limited education as well as the dream fades, and very often they join the ranks of Dhannos and Chhannos, which goes to prove “perception is reality!” That is, high school education doesn’t make the cut!

“The Manor Born”

Gender equality or not, this group of girl-children is fortunate from the get-go, simply by virtue of either educated parents or monetary affluence, so no worries there! These are our smart, independent, and successful Poonams, Pritis, and Uditas, they can charter a path of success not just for themselves but any needy soul on Jatland!

************************************************** ************************************************** ****************

Pragmatically and philosophically, the group that needs to be specifically tapped is the middle one which has attempted the beginning, if the “Paanchavi fails” can achieve sustainable educational development, they can salvage their own destiny with just a little push. How to tap this group? Gender sensitive education and or empowerment, both, at school and at home. Each locality (community leaders) should focus on this captive audience, as this group is impressionable and have stake in their future; it is important to link this group to career counseling center/services at a much earlier stage so that they have the capability to glimpse into their future and make appropriate, timely changes. Why not establish and promote educational coaching centers to improve high school performance so that they don’t end up being accepted into third rate correspondence colleges and or menial vocational training schools?

Bottom line is, our community is not going to change attitude unless it sees clear benefits of education.

rkumar

November 19th, 2005, 03:13 PM

Pragmatically and philosophically, the group that needs to be specifically tapped is the middle one which has attempted the beginning, if the “Paanchavi fails” can achieve sustainable educational development, they can salvage their own destiny with just a little push. How to tap this group? Gender sensitive education and or empowerment, both, at school and at home. Each locality (community leaders) should focus on this captive audience, as this group is impressionable and have stake in their future; it is important to link this group to career counseling center/services at a much earlier stage so that they have the capability to glimpse into their future and make appropriate, timely changes. Why not establish and promote educational coaching centers to improve high school performance so that they don’t end up being accepted into third rate correspondence colleges and or menial vocational training schools?

Bottom line is, our community is not going to change attitude unless it sees clear benefits of education.

Very practical suggestion Sujata Ji. Action taken will be reported in due course.

RK^2

sukhda

November 19th, 2005, 09:04 PM

Hi all, you really think drafting policies without proper implementation can

ever avail results??? Being a law student, we have been made to go

through almost all the provisions laid down in our law texts related to

issues taken up here.

We have sound policies n laws for almost everything in India.....One of the

latest amendments in Indian Constitution has made education compulsory

for all children upto the age of 14. Also you all might be knowing bout the

mid-day meals scheme to boost up the strength of children in

schools......specifically in rural areas......it ended up in a real

disaster .......money n resources for such schemes are being consumed by

so called care takers of the system.

There r hell lot of negative instances which can be referred when things r

discussed in making the scenario better.....no use criticising the system

but to take some effective measures in terms of social awareness. Nothing

productive can be achieved unless people themselves start feeling for

such issues right from their hearts. Neither grants nor any other resources

of a kind can prove to be helpful.....rather a severe brain washing is to be

done in the remotest of the areas to achieve results.

With Regards
Sukhda

raj_rathee

November 19th, 2005, 10:02 PM

[FONT="Comic Sans MS"][COLOR="Blue"] So let us first understand the psychology and economics of girl’s education.

Sujata's key points:

----------------------------------------------------------

o Focus on the girls that do make it to middle school level.
Biggest bang for the buck.

o These girls are the ones who "want to" but often can't. We need
to turn the "can't" to the "can".

o Need motivation and career guidance.

o Make parents see the cost-benefit analysis of girls education
in favor of "education" as opposed to against it.

o Gender sensitive education and empowerment

o Establish education coaching centers to improve liklihood
of making it to better colleges.
------------------------------------------------------------

Obviously all excellent and practical observations.
My take on these:

Focus on the "paanchvi fails"
I think so too. Makes sense. Least effort and most gains are
here. And this segment is already in the schools. So again
focus on the schools is the key here as well which is in lines
with our overall objective in this thread.

Need Motivation and Career Guidance

I can't overemphasize the importance of this. It is a MUST.
Generating a few sparks in the young minds and creating a love
and desire to learn is *extremely* important.

Career guidance is *extremely* important too. There are soooooooooo
many options out there yet the students often don't know what is
out there. We grow up thinking that engineering and medicine
is the be all and all of education. The options have to be laid
out and the kids have to be exposed to what goes on and the opportunities
outside the villages.

To all this I will add some key skills that are a requirement for
any career: *language and presentation/personality skills*. There are a lot
of opportunities in the private sector. And these too skills
are a must in anything one takes on.

Incorporating them as part of the core academic curriculum becomes
necessary (requirement for public speaking via project presentations
etc.)

Gender Sensitive Education and Empowerment

Yes agreed. Now the question is how do we do that ? If the
government incorporates that in the overall curriculum then well and good
(eg. as part of the Haryana education board..or whatever it is called).
What if it doesn't? How would this be implemented at the "model"
village level.

Establish Education Coaching Centers

Again this seems to be a strictly government centric proposal. And
even then, I would find it very doubtful to ever get implemented.

Governments aren't in the business of establising and promoting
coaching centers. That is what the "schools" are for. If the
schools are doing their job I don't
see the need for such centers.

If you are suggesting that this be done at a private level, then
again I find this doubtful. It won't happen at any significant
level. It requires money. Who is going to pay ?

I think whatever suggestions that are made have to be somehow
tiable into the current education system.

So the question in my mind would be how to have the same
sort of outcome (dedicated career guidance and college level
coaching) WITHIN the established school system.

How do we do that ?

raj_rathee

November 19th, 2005, 10:07 PM

Very practical suggestion Sujata Ji. Action taken will be reported in due course.

RK^2

Can you expand on this Chacha ?

rkumar

November 19th, 2005, 10:16 PM

Can you expand on this Chacha ?

What I said was that the suggestion from Sujata ji is very practical and I will do my best to get it implemented through personal and collective efforts and also through government channels. Its very important that we focus our efforts on what is practical and achievable.

RK^2

raj_rathee

November 19th, 2005, 10:40 PM

Hi all, you really think drafting policies without proper implementation can ever avail results???

Sukhda

First of all, thanks for your input. I was hoping for some
one from the legal field to pitch in. Your input can be
invaluable here.

----------------------------------------------------------------
Key Points made by Sukhda:

o Policies without implementation are useless.

o We already got all the right policies and laws inplace. Ground
implementation is missing.

o Corruption breaks down honest effort of govt. as in the meal
scheme.

o Progess can only happen if people themselves (the end
beneficiaries) are conscious and aware.
---------------------------------------------------------------

My comments:

o Policies Without Implementation are Useless
o We already got all the right policies and laws inplace. Ground
implementation is missing.

Can't agree more. And that is exactly the motivation behind
this thread and its narrowed down scope of focussing on a
model village "Harya".

If we can somehow see that an honest officer given the
charter to improve the education quality and gender equality within
a single village, CAN make it happen then we take it to a broader
level.

Implementation is the key in this regard. We know the policy level
issues. Question is how to get them implemented. How to beat the
system that so often prevents them from getting implemented ?

o Corruption breaks down honest effort of govt. as in the meal
scheme.
o Progess can only happen if people themselves (the end
beneficiaries) are conscious and aware.
This ties in to the above discussion as well.

We know that IMPLEMENTATION is the key.
We also know that leaving everything to the goverenment is a problem.
The corruption and the lack of accountability and personal
stakes in the successful outcomes is a killer. The best efforts
and ideas go nowhere in the face of that.

So now what ? What do we do to get past that ? And of course, in the
context of this thread, what do we do to make sure that any
proposals at "Harya" level *get faithfully implemented* ?
What do we do to make sure that the teachers perform ?
[Note that as part of the assumptions made here we can't willy nilly
fire them. A politician isn't going to do that !]

What I am trying to do here is again bring in what in my mind
is the key ingredient for any successful implementation in "Harya".
And that is how can parents and students *THEMSELVES* ensure that
they are getting the education that the governments wants them to.

Can we hold the teachers accountable to the parents and students ?
Should the students have a say in which teachers are good ? And Which
teachers aren't performing ? Can we have a system where the student
and parent feedback becomes the criterian as to the teacher's future ?
[In this way can we have a system whereby the politician creates
a system whereby he is free from fear of the "vote" factor and such
considerations...and let the end beneficiaries (along with help
and direction and guidance) run the system indirectly...as far as
the quality of education that they are getting ?]

If yes, how do we implement that ? Can it happen ? Is there anything
in our legal system than would prevent us doing that ?

At least can we try that in "Harya" as a trial ? Can we transfer out
all current teachers from "Harya" and let teachers opt in to teach
at "Harya" under this approach that students and parents will decide if
they get to stay ? And the good ones do get rewarded in some way ?

This way we aren't trying to overhaul the system but seeing the
effects our ideas at a single village level. Even a politician can take
this risk without alienating the "vote" bank of teachers and such
government employees. And perhaps some willing educators can be
assigned a lead role so that it would not seem that something is
being thrusted on them..rather it would seem that this is coming
from within the teaching community ?

raj_rathee

November 19th, 2005, 10:41 PM

What I said was that the suggestion from Sujata ji is very practical and I will do my best to get it implemented through personal and collective efforts and also through government channels. Its very important that we focus our efforts on what is practical and achievable.

RK^2

Thanks Chacha. Good to see that you are following this thread.

vinodks

November 21st, 2005, 01:11 AM

Chachaji,
I was wondering if you could help us in forwarding our message to D. Hooda. We can discuss this matter to detail and then finally draft a proposal/petition and more than hundred intellectual and sincere Jat of website can sign. If you could pass it on to D. Hooda along with out best wishes for his career, it will be great. I know he is already doing good job and he also has big think-tank which help him in making decision and they also ponder of future of "Harya". But if somehow we also get know what exactly they are doing, it will be awesome.

Vinod

What I said was that the suggestion from Sujata ji is very practical and I will do my best to get it implemented through personal and collective efforts and also through government channels. Its very important that we focus our efforts on what is practical and achievable.

RK^2

vinodks

November 21st, 2005, 01:47 AM

First of all, a request to everybody, plz be brief and simple in your posts(brevity+clarity is sexist thing in discussions:)).

Raj, so you want to discuss all the aspect that can make Hariya an ideal village. So purpose of discussion might be "to discuss and educate ourselve about rural problems, understand root-causes and develope clear insight of possible and efficient solution".

I don't want to comment on different forms of problems discussed by members becuz I more or less agree with everyone. Broadly we face 3 issues/problems

1) Actual problems: gender inequality, illiteracy(panchvi-fails), health, unemployment and poverty etc.

2) Man-made problems: These are causes of problem#(1). Corruption, attitude, apathy and adherence to out-dated social practices(like gender bias, caste system etc.)

3) Difficulty in implementation: People have ideas but it just doesn't translate into action. Corruption is big thing politics but sometime its just lack of vision and planning that causes problems. Even people in village discuss like us about development but they don't know how to begin on this "enterprise". And very importantly, lack of apolitical lobbying body that can pressure govt. to be transparent and follow the social policies drafted by professionals.

People mostly talk about probelms (1), (2). And I agree with all the ideas that has been put here. I am more worried about (3).

Raj, you r doing good work in following this thread. At the end kindly, make a consice compilation of ideas(I can help) and we can refine it.

You said you are not big fan of NGOs. Thousands of NGOs in India is doing work that is just out-of-scope of govt. To give a simple example, Ekal vidyalaya has made 1-teacher schools in 14,000(the no. says something) tribal villages in last 5 years. They plan to take this figure to 100,000 by 2010. Total number of tribal villages in India is around 125,000. That might not be good example in our case becuz we face different problem. And this kind of problem can be solved by forming of "apolitical lobbying agencies" which comprise of full-time worker along with vast network of sincere people like us. So our thoughts and refined opinions can have direct to "say" at ground level through lobbying channels. Issues that can be taken for just probelm (2) and (3). Like
-anti-corruption, tranparency, right of information, opinion building about politician through media, better network of working groups, better development models and a medium through which people like us can "WORK" in the way we can. Then (1) will be taken care of transparent and dedicated politician/beaurocrats. There are so many agencies like this in US. But it was just an idea, we are not gonna have such thing atleast in near future. BTW, such agencies fall under category "NGO".

What can be do? First, continue what we are doing now. And slightly shift the focus the problem (3). Though I would like to start a small effort(which we already started, I don;t have to mention it), a small network of people like us which make a team of thinkers, which might assume other roles in future. Anyway will add more later.

-vinod

My Comments:

Everybody knows what needs to be done :

Why attention on one village :

Need for Hooda's Assurance for Action
Personally I am not too great a fan of NGOs and volunteer
work etc as a means of making change. Just how many of
us here are REALLY likely to go out to the villages and
carry out these tasks. I don't think too many. Hence
I do not want to go in that direction of proposing that
we become foot soldiers. I know very well that I wouldn't.
Except for the once in a couple of years visit to a school
to meet the kids I wouldn't be able to do much else
at the ground level. So I want to stay realistic.

Yes when it comes to direct contribution we could
provide support in the form of guidance (career, academic,
written material ...etc...that I think we could do
on a volunteer basis.) and we would be open
to those suggestions as part of this discussion.

raj_rathee

November 21st, 2005, 08:18 AM

What can be do? First, continue what we are doing now. And slightly shift the focus the problem (3). Though I would like to start a small effort(which we already started, I don;t have to mention it), a small network of people like us which make a team of thinkers, which might assume other roles in future. Anyway will add more later.

Vinod:

----------------------------------------------------------
Your points:

o Making Harya the idea village is the issue
o Implementation is the main issue...focus here
o You point out that NGOs can do good work
o Formation of "Apolitcal lobbying agencies" --> NGOs
which can tackle:
- corruption
- bring transparency
- right to information
- opinion building about politicians via media
- better social models etc.
-----------------------------------------------------------

My comments:

Making Harya the ideal village is the issue

For the purpose of this thread I just want to
focus on education and the girl child (which translates
to education for the most part. So focus is to ensure
QUALITY in education to both sexes.

If we could come up with something practical we could
look at Harya from other angles also..but not now.

Focus on Implementation

Yes. But implement what ? We need to say what we want to
implement and then define how it is going to be done
such that we *beat the system without trying to overhaul it.*

NGOs and Apolitical Lobbying Agencies

Vinod, your knowledge and understanding of NGOs is far
greater than mine. I made the statement in a general way since
many such organisations are black holes, and I have heard of a lot
of abuse of funds/donations etc. But that said, I'll defer to you
on this subject since you clearly know a lot more here.

You points about Apolitical lobbying agencies is well taken.

Additionally
Lets then come up with sugesstions about how to imrove the quality
of education...and get that implemented in Harya.

raj_rathee

November 21st, 2005, 08:27 AM

Let me start of myself with something concrete that I have alluded to
serveral times before, and that is the subject of teachers. How do we
ensure they deliver ? In the first post here I pointed to the thread
"Who checks the checkers ?". I threw in some suggestions about parents and
children having a role and say.

Are there any other different opinions here ? [Remember that we need
realistic solutions that a politician will give the go ahead for. "Saalon
ko goli maar do" won't do.]

Lets come up with some suggestions for solutions and we'll
pick couple of promising ones and see what it takes to imlement them.

rkumar

November 21st, 2005, 01:55 PM

Chachaji,
I was wondering if you could help us in forwarding our message to D. Hooda. We can discuss this matter to detail and then finally draft a proposal/petition and more than hundred intellectual and sincere Jat of website can sign. If you could pass it on to D. Hooda along with out best wishes for his career, it will be great. I know he is already doing good job and he also has big think-tank which help him in making decision and they also ponder of future of "Harya". But if somehow we also get know what exactly they are doing, it will be awesome.

Vinod

Mr Deepender Hooda is a member of Jatland. You can always send your views to him via email which is given in his profile. (dhooda@hotmail.com
, deepender@yahoo.com )

RK^2

raj_rathee

November 22nd, 2005, 05:17 AM

Iss thread par toh pura sunnata hai !

Dev Chacha, aap "thundering rains" ki baat kar rahe the
lekin mujhe toh yahan do boond paani bhi nazar nahin aa raha ! :D

Well anyways, I am not surprised. It was expected.
Bhashan dene hon toh yahan bhagdhad macch jaati hai. Ko kaam ki baat
ho toh "Phissssssssss". But let me save my cynicism for some other time.

For now, I am wrapping up this thread. Thanks to the few folks that
provided their input. But without more meaningful participation,
this is not worth any sincere effort.

Things related to education and betterment of our females and our
society's treatment of them are very dear to me and I am sure that
there is gradual improvement going on in our
part of the world. Lets keep working towards that in any small
way we can.

In the meantime, may I please go back to my fun loving
ways and mauj masti on Jatland ? Please ? Pleaaaaaaaseeee?
Humare kucch uptight members ko aitraaz toh nahin hoga ?

:eek:

Aur please, don't anyone now say "Honsla banaaye rakho..Akela
chalna seekho"...etc...Nahin toh mein sacch mucch hans doonga
ab. ;)

vinodks

November 22nd, 2005, 06:21 AM

See Raj, I raised this point in very beginning, whats the purpose of discussion?... and I gathered it was to 'think and brain-storm' which happened to some extent... I will format a petition and post by tomorrow, which people can sign and we can email that to Deepender, even if there is no outcome it's good because it would add on the list of '100 ways in which things don't work'... but I don't understand what "kaam ki baat" you are talking about... I guess we were doing "baat ki baat"... What you aimed to attain in thread?... just heavy responses?... then you should have mentioned in the beginning that the purpose of thread is massive involvement of members and posts... sincere people responded the best they could... ab sabki baate khatam ho gayi to shanti(sanatta nahi) hai, joki achhi baat hai, kyunki shanti mein aadmi sochta hai...:-))

Vinod

Well anyways, I am not surprised. It was expected.
Bhashan dene hon toh yahan bhagdhad macch jaati hai. Ko kaam ki baat
ho toh "Phissssssssss". But let me save my cynicism for some other time.
. ;)

raj_rathee

November 22nd, 2005, 06:33 AM

See Raj, I raised this point in very beginning, whats the purpose of discussion?...

Arre yaar Vinod 30+ posts ke baad bhi I am still trying to explain
the motivation and purpose...Looks like I did a horrendous job. :(

Anyways, I don't think there is much utility to the petition but
whatever. Jit gootha tekan ki kahvega udee tek denege. :)

sukhda

November 22nd, 2005, 10:46 AM

Well it was very much expected......I am not complaining or something but thats what happens everytime with everything.......anyways.......as Raj

bhaisahab said "bhashan dene ho toh sab aage rehte hain" and when it comes to make efforts in the regard, the whole scene takes a never ending

twist:)

On the other hand, if being practical whats the use of discussing and discussing and discussing.......there is no end to such discussions.......everybody

knows that implementation and accountability factors are two forces which can change the scenario to a great extent.......for that we need a vibrant

civil society and efficient bureaucracy.......pata toh sabko sab kuch hai ........even Deepender must be knowing bout the loopholes in the

system......the question is that who's ready to go against the system to set the things right.......and is equally ready to face the consequences......I

know it sounds weird but everything that sounds weird initially is bound to achieve results if done with honest intentions and determination to make

things happen.

Wont write much further......kyonki bhashan dena bahut aasaan hota hai:)

Well, eachone for one ownself.......thats how things r working n wud continue to exist.....what all can be expected is that if ever any one of us get a

chance to do something .....we definitely wont miss it!!!!!! yo hi bhatera.

MAY GOD BLESS INDIA:)

REGARDS
SUKHDA

devdahiya

November 22nd, 2005, 12:01 PM

sukhda

November 22nd, 2005, 02:08 PM

With all due respect this is for Dahiya Uncle....... its not bout being

arrogant or havin a negative attitude.......ask people who tried taking a

step by starting this thread and finally backed out......You picked up

good things coz you were concerned infact everybody who was

concerned tried making an effort......n why people lost interest after a

while ???? eachone of us has his or her own reasons i guess.

Well i would like to share something here..........we have thousands of

compilations in the various libraries in India with such suggestions and

poilicies......how many of them have been brought into practice ..........if

somehow any ....how many of them have produced results??? I still stress

upon accountability and implementation factors coz i feel they r lacking to

an extent of creating unruly picture.

I agree this site is for discussion .......ask people why they didnt respond

to the queries instead of questioning n talking bout frustrations of people.

Dahiya uncle, looking forward to have more good n pragmatic suggestions

from your side i appreciate your concerns.......

I have tried not to sound negative in my approach ......n hope u wont

feel so this time too......:)

REGARDS
SUKHDA

Sukhda ji, Pher iss ki bi kya jaroorat thi...i mean iss bhassan ki jo aapne pila diya puri janta ko. I fail to understand the mind set people have? this site is for discussion and not a Dunggal to show practical efficiencies. if you will not discuss things how the hell will you exchange ideas. I picked up so many good things from this very discussion [in this thread] please don't show your frustrations at every thing which is not as per your mental standards. This is outright negativity and a snobish attitude.

devdahiya

November 22nd, 2005, 02:38 PM

Sukhda ji, nice to find a rejoinder from your side. thanx for more appropriate words.Libraries have done wonders for humanity. People studied in libraries and became scientists of repute,They constructed dams,they went to space, they won wars by learning about tactics...so on and so forth. A book, a word spoken, a line written or an idea conveyed through any means can change your life and the destiny of a nation or society. In that light i would like to say that whatever i studied through the years and whatever knowledge i gathered about the multi-faced life.....i did not use it instantly [the moment i heard a thing] but had been useing it over a period of time and mind you so many things are lying dorment inside because IDEAS wait OPPURTUNITY.Those learnings are my BANK and will help me in due life. By being a useful member of the society [not involving in anti-social activities ] we contribute in nation building. Point which i am making is that Any discuussion will be good if it enhances the knowledge of recipients. Hope you did not feel bad of my previous post? If yes Sorry is due. Thanks.

sukhda

November 22nd, 2005, 03:44 PM

Ram Ram Dahiya Uncle, I agree with every single word of yours......no

doubt Libraries act as real gold mines and pave the way for big

achievements.....again things become real slow when it comes to

IMPLEMENTATION .........and when ACCOUNTABILTY factor is missing,

things end up in total disaster.

Above all, I don have reasons to feel bad about your mail.....so question

of feeling sorry doesn't arise:).......You are lot more experienced and

have seen the world in a much better way.......yet to learn a lot from

you.....I mean it!!!!!

REGARDS
SUKHDA

Sukhda ji, nice to find a rejoinder from your side. thanx for more appropriate words.Libraries have done wonders for humanity. People studied in libraries and became scientists of repute,They constructed dams,they went to space, they won wars by learning about tactics...so on and so forth. A book, a word spoken, a line written or an idea conveyed through any means can change your life and the destiny of a nation or society. In that light i would like to say that whatever i studied through the years and whatever knowledge i gathered about the multi-faced life.....i did not use it instantly [the moment i heard a thing] but had been useing it over a period of time and mind you so many things are lying dorment inside because IDEAS wait OPPURTUNITY.Those learnings are my BANK and will help me in due life. By being a useful member of the society [not involving in anti-social activities ] we contribute in nation building. Point which i am making is that Any discuussion will be good if it enhances the knowledge of recipients. Hope you did not feel bad of my previous post? If yes Sorry is due. Thanks.

shokeen123

November 22nd, 2005, 07:22 PM

Just because people have not responded as frequently and as vigorously does not mean lack of interest. These are very complex steps we are promulgating; implementation of any one of these is extremely difficult. Furthermore, people need some time to grasp the concepts because “in theory it is easy to practice but in practice it is not!” Why don’t we allow people sometime to ponder and let the information soak in? People who care will not be silent for long, they can’t, and it’s not in their nature to abandon the ship just like that? Besides, there are umpteen personal reasons for at least a few of us with grown up kids, and sorry to admit, at a critical juncture in their lives they come first! Please take it easy, the mission we are embarking on is not going to be accomplished overnight. Let’s not derail the process by adding frustrating comments, some that are not necessary at all. It is so easy to get discouraged, especially on matters of such importance we cannot afford getting carried away with adjectives. My needs analysis input is already in, I am not too sure about the feasibility of the implementation process, hence the frustration, that’s not to say I have not been dwelling on it.

Thanks for the understanding.

priti

November 22nd, 2005, 07:27 PM

I dont know if you all will agree but I dont think we need very heavy response and again devise a general purpose of this thread. We are not doing a scientific enquiry here that we need to define everything. What we needed were meaningful responses (am i right raj?) and we got some if not enough. we should not be complaining...

From this thread the most useful suggestion i have found for the change-makers (and i am assuming it is the government) is the TARGETED INTERVENTION ON 'PANCHVI FAILS' SUGGESTED BY SUJATA-This is section towards which all other suggested interventions should be made.

The finale of this thread might be to be to conclude it with coherent ideas produced here and let the change-makers benefit from it if they find these ideas compelling and practical enough. Sitting far away, we are anyway not in a position to know the constraints and environment in which these suggestions are to be implemented.

raj_rathee

November 23rd, 2005, 12:06 AM

Sujata/Priti:

Thanks. I'll be happy to continue coordinating this discussion
if there is active interest and ideas flowing. I am hoping for
lot of constructive criticism as regards to whatever is said.
No egos. No nothing. Just crunching each other's ideas to see
if we can come up with some worthwile suggestions. I just request
that everyone try to stay within the scope of the discussion.

It would be nicer and easier to coordinate this if we can tackle
this bit by bit. If we have suggestions as to how to deal with teacher
accountability, bring them on.

spdeshwal

November 23rd, 2005, 02:58 AM

Dear Raj,

Nirash hone ki jarurat nahi hai. Kisi bhi achhe kam ke suru hone mai samay bhi lagata hai aur adchane bhi aati hnai.

Many members have contributed positively and brought out some valid points. You are probably dispointed for not getting the concrete suggestions you were expecting.

My observation is that this lacked a clear GOAL and DIRECTION.

Your Opening sentence was" I think now could be a good time to come up with some concrete suggestions that can be pursued at the government level. We have Deepender..... And from here itself this discussion lost direction. Not many people would expect much help from politicians and did not take part in the discussion. This is my view and this may not be true.

I agree with Sujataji view on furthering the scope of Panchvi fails to Middle and high school with poor grades. Because, i have some first hand experience in my family. Three granddaughters of my tauji were very bright students at the primary school level but did poorly at middle and high school level due to lack of encouragement from their father and old mind set of dominan grandparents. Whatever little help they received was from their Middle pass mother who wanted her daughters to go for college education. Unfortunately all of them ended with geting married and had kids before they were 18. Here noteworthy realty is that my tauji and his son could afford their college education.
My first suggestion is that we must concentrate most on changing the old mind set and attitude towards women.
Secondly, i would like to ask you to involve our more experieced members like Sh. Ram S Arya, Col. Jagmohan Malik, Col Virender Tavethia, Sh. RK Sehrawatji, Dr Birbal ji, Ch. Lakshman BadakJi, Ch. Baljeetji, Shailender Hoodaji, Sh. Kapoor Singh and all others who you think could be contacted for this. Some of these gentlemen may not be following this thread for some reason.

Thirdly, have some flexibility about the Location of our Model Village 'Harya'
It can be based on feasibilty and convenient for the plan to be implemented.
This can be in any of the states of Jat heartland. I have some suggestion on this.
It can be located near Sh. Aryaji's School so that any help and guidance from the staff is readily available. or

Any village near Samli or Meerut. Rajenderji is moving to Samli early next year and can lead this project along with his hospital project. If i remeber correctly Col Jagmohan has planned to move over to Meerut and he had also offered to work with RajenderJi. I am confident that these two gentlemen have everything we need for implementation of such projects; experience, strenth of the character and willingness.

Lastly comes the Finance to fund the project. The Projected sum of Rs.300,000 is not too big a amout for the members of this site for the nobblest cause for our community. As Col. Jagmohan always says, charity begins at home. So let us start at our home'Jatland'

I am willing to cotribute for this project NZ$500( Rs.15000). At this stage i can do this much only. I assure the members to cotribute more after i settle some outstanding commitments in a year or two. This amount i can send as and when required.

My personal appeal to Aryaji, Rajenderji and Col Jagmohanji to accept the responsibility if the members collectively ask them to do so.

I hope, Raj and his think tank can make a fresh begining!

With lots of best wishes for the success of this project!

Sateypal

NB: PLEASE ALSO GO THROUGH THESE LIKNKS
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2005/20051122/haryana.htm#3
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2005/20051122/haryana.htm#7

singhkapoor

November 23rd, 2005, 10:51 AM

I think Raj’s concept of “Harya” (an ideal village) has a lot of promise and I am sure if tackled with care can go a long way; it is all a matter of believing in yourself. Well begun is half done; so, Raj, take your time and send individual emails to people, who you think will lend credibility to the program. It will be quite some time before the project will be able to deliver palpable positive results; so, you might need to set up an NGO not only to keep the enthusiasm/dream alive but also to keep the govt. machinery on its toes.

Excuse me for setting off on a tangent here because I know you have mentioned that you are not a great fan of NGOs. BTW, I have a diametrically opposite opinion about the role NGOs can play in making positive difference in people’s lives. As opposed to a signed petition, I think an NGO stands a better chance of forcing/convincing the govt. to implement this idea in “Harya”. Setting up an NGO will give the idea a formal name and a “face” which in turn will make the Haryana govt. consider the idea more seriously. OK…OK…..you can call it a “lobbying group” if you hate the term NGO.

You will need a healthy mix of at least four kinds of people to cover all of the important bases:
a. People who can devote time or at least find people who can devote time.
b. People who have had a lot of exposure to world and can give you ideas.
c. People who have a fairly high social standing by virtue of their noble deeds (their presence on the team translates to credibility)
d. People who can afford to donate some moolah (even though eventually the program will run on the govt. machinery, it will incur some expenses such as travel and administrative cost even if the NGO is run by volunteers).

I have seen so many such threads die a quick death on this forum because ……. well, we all know the reasons!!! Gathering signatures from people who don’t even know where and what they are signing on will neither have any credibility nor will you get anything worthwhile accomplished. My suggestion would be to privately contact “only” the most sincere people on this site and get them to commit to the cause (In my opinion there are plenty of such people here but they resist posting because they have seen the trend in the past. Most of the times the response or attitude is more of a “bhed chaal” than a serious commitment based on sound judgment. A typical response is - “tell me if there is anything I can do”, “count me in for this noble cause”, “bhai mera bhi naam likh liye”, etc. etc.

So keeping the typical jatland spirit alive, my response to this thread is – mere layak koi kaam ho to bataana . Jokes apart, you know that I MEAN it.

To begin, I will mention a few points that readily come to mind:

Deciding upon that lucky “Village” itself will be no easy task. Because of obvious reasons, everyone involved in the project (including you, me, and the politician) will wish his/her village to be selected. But, I think you can make it clear up front that “Harya” will be chosen/picked by a random draw from all interested/short-listed candidate villages.

You might have to convince the govt. to make slight changes in the curriculum to include projects for students that we think will be beneficial to the students’ all around development.

Info-sessions/guest talks delivered by well placed and successful people can come quite handy in changing people’s attitude. Topics such as:

Engineering and Medical degrees are not the be all and end all.
Opportunities available in today’s Indian job market as well as in the rest of the world
Personality development
People skills
Public Speaking
Importance of command over a language (English or Hindi) in jobs like journalism, media etc or even in day to day life
Commercial Farming
Importance of Networking with people to advance in any career
Technology and the job market
Vocations such carpentry, seamstress, fashion-design etc. are viable career options if you have the right connections.
Professional Sports as a career option (it is relatively “easy” to get a job through sports quota)

I think inviting the parents to such sessions will make it easier for them to believe in the project as well as in their child’s ability esp. if the guest speaker has had a village connection/background and has risen to the top through his/her sheer perseverance. They need just one circuit-breaker kind of event to realize that – “If this guest speaker who is standing right in front of me and talking to me can do IT, so can my son or daughter” I will give my own example and I am sure that others feel the same way:

When I was in grade 7, I started dreaming of becoming a national champion athlete; but it was still a dream. Then Geeta Zutshi (Asian Gold Medalist, 1978) joined our school as sports director and I had a chance to be near her, talk to her, run with her mano a mano, and hold her track-suit that had “INDIA” written at the back. Suddenly, the dream started to seem like a possibility…..the myth that champions are made of “gold” was broken because I realized that they were normal human being, it is just that they work harder than most people. Meeting Ms. Zutshi and later on with other international stars made me realize that even the “superstars had feet of clay” which gave me the confidence to do one better. It is human nature that once you have had a chance to spend some time with your “hero”, although you still respect them for their accomplishments, you no longer are in awe of his/her personality. Most people would draw inspiration from such meetings and would find it easier to emulate their hero than if they never had a chance to meet these successful people. That’s why it is very important to keep company of successful people; they are a constant source of inspiration.

Someone had brought up the point whether the idea of choosing 20 villages for incremental changes or the idea of choosing 1 village for a total systemic overhaul would be more practical. IMHO neither idea would be a cakewalk to implement but the second one (Harya) has a better chance of success than the first; mainly because:

a. It is easier to work with 1 set of people than 20 (read panchayats)
b. It will be easier to monitor / manage i.e. fewer people (administrators) required.
c. Less financial resources needed.
d. If you can show positive change in one village, other villages will notice it themselves and would want to embrace the model. Ideal situation would be the neighboring villages approaching the govt. to implement the scheme on a larger scale. The panchayats will become bolder and demand accountability from teachers in their own schools.
e. It will be a lot easier (comparatively) to convince the govt. /politician to let you try the experiment in one village than to give you a free hand in 20 villages.

You have to remember that every child in “Harya” will not be Noble Laureate material; so, you will have to make at least two groups in each grade i.e. the “bright bulbs” and the “Average Joes”. There is sure to be political pressure to include student “X” in spite of the fact that “X” did not make the cut to be included in the “Einstein Group”. Exams that will identify the “bright bulbs” will have to be closely supervised to maintain the integrity of the system.

My below-mentioned idea might sound like a far-fetched one but I will still put it forward just for the sake of doing it. You never know!!

Although, every teacher in Harya school will be hand picked (I hope that’s possible), you still might want to offer special incentives/rewards for the best of the best – For the teachers who produce results in the “wow” range; how about a round trip ticket to Singapore or some other fancy reward….I don’t think it will be difficult to find sponsors for these rewards/trips (zyada lambe supney to nahi dikha diye kahin)?

Raj, in spirit I am wholeheartedly behind your idea but I also believe that adopting the “Sign-A-Petition” approach may not have enough momentum to galvanize the govt.; hence the suggestion of a formal organization taking up the gauntlet. What do you think?? Anyways, you got my support.

And, Yes!! There will be detractors, cynics, and habitually negative people who will say what they are best at saying……but, if you believe in your idea, you should first sell it to a handful of “heavy-weights” (even to non-jats and jats, who may not be members of this site) and then hope for a dominos effect before buckling down for a bumpy but fulfilling ride.

Cheers

raj_rathee

November 23rd, 2005, 10:57 AM

My observation is that this lacked a clear GOAL and DIRECTION.

Deshwal Chacha [or in this case Mama...my Ma is a Deswal...]:

(Good to see your picture. Pardon me for previously assuming you were
my age.)

Your response is very much appreciated and thanks for bringing
out some valuable suggestions.

----------------------------------------------------------------
Deshwal Chacha's Key Points:

o Lack of clear goal and direction
-- Lack of faith in politicians is an issue
o Agreement to focus on the "Paanchvi Fails"
o Concentrate on changing the old mind set and attitude toward
women.
o Involvement of experienced members
-- Some of them may not be following the thread
o Flexibility in terms of location of "Harya"
-- Location near Arya Chacha's school
-- Location near Samli (Rajender Chacha)
-- Meerut (Col Jagmohan)
o Finance and Donations
----------------------------------------------------------------

My Comments:

Lack of clear goal and direction

Well, perhaps the original stated goal could be made concrete. My
original intention was that too was up for discussion.
But I felt that subsequent posts narrowed it down. Here
it is as it stands now:

Goal:

Our goal is to clearly define a set of actions/steps/proposals as well
detailed implementation guidelines to help improve the quality of education,
with special focus on the education and success of the girl child,
of an existing senior secondary government owned and run rural school,
without any new substantial financial resources, and without any new
manpower.

While the goal is as above we are allowing ourselves some leeway in that
we do have the following additional resources:

-- An able administrator to implement
-- Choice of two additional employees
-- Rs 3 Lakh additional per annum. (some "pocket money")
-- Some freedom in accountability enforcement (such as the ability
to transfer non performing teachers)

General Guidelines:

1. We are assuming a favorable government (which one it is does not
matter..though initial motivation was that Deepender
Hooda would be sympathetic to the cause) who will listen and implement
our suggestions by assigning a model village (fictitious name "Harya")
in which the suggestions would be implemented faithfully.

2. Failure of get such a village would not be seen as failure of this
effort. Our purpose is that of a think tank. Anything we come
up with can provide ANY educator some good ideas to improve the quality
of education with limited resources. At the very least it will have given
all of us a good framework to think about such issues in very realistic
terms like an able administrator would have to do. In no way would
this be a wasted excercise.

3. The end output will be a concrete set of steps to be implemented
in a "brain dead" way...we should already have done the thinking
and nothing is left out to "figure out". Our proposal has to be a
"What to do" and "How to do".

4. We will NOT depend on outside funding. We must depend on the current
resources allocated to the village (with the aforementioned "leeways").
Our goal is to come up with sustainable ideas that can be, if successful,
applied to other villages. Therefore it is important that we work
within the resource constraints. We can't willy nilly ask for anything.

Directions:

1. Discover and define specific issues that hamper the delivery
of quality education (e.g. non-performance of teachers).

2. Brainstorm for solutions within the constraints we have set for ourselves
(ie. we are not going to ask for overhead projectors, and laptops
and satellite t.v.). All we got is what we currently have in a typical
village as already set out.

3. Define concrete steps to implement the solutions...to as much detail
as possible. For instance if we are going to say parents need to
oversee the teachers...then we need to define the setup, procedures etc.

End Output

A document that details 1, 2 and 3 under "Directions"

Essentially we need to put ourselves in the shoes of an able administrator
who has severe constraints of resources but who is honest and wants
to create a system that is workable and sustainable even when he is not
there.

After all isn't that the real challenge ?

Agreement to focus on Paanchvi fails

Yes. We have agreed that this is a good idea. Biggest bang for the
buck. But these again fall within the overall scope of quality
education within the government school system. SO we will be attacking this
as part of that.

Concentrate on changing the mindset towards women

Strong agreement here ! Big question is how does the "administrator"
go about doing that ? One suggestion that I will repeatedly throw
out here is that use our most valuable resources...our students.

Involvement of Experienced Members

Well of course. I'm just waiting for them to knock on the
door. I did not want to make anyone feel obligated since it is more
fruitful if people take interest on their own accord.

But if you insist that anyone needs personal invitation, I'll
happy to send emails to seek their input...and I am desperate for it. :)

Flexibility in terms of location of "Harya"

We ARE completely flexible. But we are assuming everything
on some government involvement as can be seen by the above assumptions.
If the same can be achieved in Rajasthan, UP, Delhi, Haryana, or any
of "our" areas, is just as well.

Regarding Chacha Arya's school. I assume that is a private school and
Chacha Arya has complete freedom in ensuring how it run and that
quality of education is maintained. If he or any private educator finds
some useful suggestions in all of this it would be wonderful. Of course
their guidance and criticism would be highly appreciated

But our specific goal is to focus on government schools. Those are
the ones with the severe problems.

Finance and Donations

As mentioned, for the specific purpose of this brain storming we do not
want to rely on external donations. We just can't if we want to
provide realistic solutions for a model village that we would hope
to be later replicated to other villages.

We need to do with what we got. Hence the brain storming is our
real donation here. Are we good enough to think beyond the
ordinary ?

sukhda

November 23rd, 2005, 11:33 AM

ACCOUNTABILTY OF TEACHERS

Hi, its good to see the soaring spirits again…..:) …..after pondering over the accountability issue and going thru some texts in this regard, have come up with certain suggestions……The concept of accountability needs careful consideration. At first blush, the notion that teachers should be held accountable for their jobs seems perfectly straightforward and reasonable. What could be more sensible than to expect teachers to do their best, and to make appropriate changes in their jobs as their success is assessed?
Clearly, the desire of govt. to more closely tie teacher accountability to student performance measures is both a reasonable and a feasible goal. Teachers can significantly impact student learning outcomes, regardless of other influences, and those teachers who don’t have much impact, or whose impact is negative, are simply not doing their job.

Setting up an adequate TEACHER-EVALUATION SYSTEM based upon student performance can help in producing substantial results. For that following measures if taken wont go waste for sure:

A vehicle or protocol that reasonably measures student learning gains on state education standards
A method of collecting and analyzing data that can generate a confident, “value-added” correlation between individual teachers and student learning gains over time, independent of other factors known to affect student performance, including the impact of previous teachers
Appropriate appraisal of the data that emphasizes patterns of performance by individual teachers’ students, not anomalies
An initial corrective, rather than punitive, approach toward teachers whose students show a pattern of poor learning gains in recognition that additional teacher education, re-training, or re-assignment may alleviate the problem
A buy-in from teachers and parents so that the evaluation will truly impact teacher performance, and that support for the proper use of evaluation data and for teacher remediation efforts will be forthcoming.
Finally, the responsibility of school and district administrative leaders should not be overlooked. Particularly when there is a pattern of poor student performance throughout an entire school or in many schools within a district, problems clearly go beyond the abilities of specific teachers. The school or district environment must be changed to increase the effectiveness of all teachers. If school and district leaders cannot be held responsible for the problem they should be held responsible for crafting a solution that makes their teachers and their schools more effective in promoting student learning. Here, we shdn’t forget the significance of “RIGHT OF INFORMATION ACT.” I still wont feel shy affirming the same thing again……there is just a need of using the resources in the right manner coz everything exist but we need to unravel it.
Hope this would be of some help.

REGARDS
SUKHDA

singhkapoor

November 23rd, 2005, 01:02 PM

Well, it seems that Raj is not very keen on the NGO idea.

So, I will try to stick within the scope he has defined for this thread i.e. to provide suggestions to policy makers and ask them to implement these suggestions in a model village “Harya”.

To begin with, I will explore the “how to improve quality of education” issue: To make sure that everyone is on the same page, let’s lay out as to how we would measure success of this project.

What is our benchmark for measuring quality of education?

I am sorry if this has been addressed in some earlier post.
a. Would a 100% pass rate in each grade/class be considered a success?

b. Or the project will be considered to have improved quality of education in Harya only if at least 35% students scored over 90% marks?

c. Or opening their eyes to the rest of the world is defined as success? By this I mean making them aware of the numerous possible career paths they could choose from after grade 10 or 12; hence concentrating on providing them with the educational tools to get started in these vocations.

d. Or inculcating/instilling good civic sense, responsibility towards society etc. would be considered as raising quality of education.

e. or is it all of the above?

If it’s the first scenario (academic mediocrity) that we are targeting then it does not seem to be a very uphill task.

But, for the second scenario to occur (producing academically excellent students by the dozen), I think Harya might not find enough suitable teachers. If there are such teachers available, we might have to give them LOT of extra incentives. Most good teachers impart private tuitions after school hours so they may not be willing /motivated enough to put the required “extra” effort even during school hours. Teachers will consider this posting as a punishment rather than a reward, unless a teacher is a morally upright soul and is bound by ethics of his profession. Teachers will pull political strings to avoid posting at Harya.

The classrooms may have to be re-equipped and teachers re-trained if we are talking about bringing Harya students at par with the private-school students.

For the above solutions (teacher incentives, re-training, or re-equipping of the class rooms) Rupees 3 lakh does not seem to be an adequate amount. But, I think if we are able to sell the idea to the govt. and it decides to go ahead with this experiment in Harya, another 5-10 lakhs should not be a problem.

It is also possible that with the help of even 2-3 good & dedicated teachers, students can form their own study groups and do wonderfully well academically. Sometime back I read about a Bihar/Orissa village where one alumnus of the village school, who had gotten admission in IIT, started a study/help group in the village “chaupal” and within a few years it so happened that every single year there were 6/7 students from this village who got admission in to IITs.

Cheers

devdahiya

November 23rd, 2005, 01:51 PM

Deshwal Chacha [or in this case Mama...my Ma is a Deswal...]:

(Good to see your picture. Pardon me for previously assuming you were
my age.)

Your response is very much appreciated and thanks for bringing
out some valuable suggestions.

----------------------------------------------------------------
Deshwal Chacha's Key Points:

o Lack of clear goal and direction
-- Lack of faith in politicians is an issue
o Agreement to focus on the "Paanchvi Fails"
o Concentrate on changing the old mind set and attitude toward
women.
o Involvement of experienced members
-- Some of them may not be following the thread
o Flexibility in terms of location of "Harya"
-- Location near Arya Chacha's school
-- Location near Samli (Rajender Chacha)
-- Meerut (Col Jagmohan)
o Finance and Donations
----------------------------------------------------------------

My Comments:

Lack of clear goal and direction

Well, perhaps the original stated goal could be made concrete. My
original intention was that too was up for discussion.
But I felt that subsequent posts narrowed it down. Here
it is as it stands now:

Goal:

Our goal is to clearly define a set of actions/steps/proposals as well
detailed implementation guidelines to help improve the quality of education,
with special focus on the education and success of the girl child,
of an existing senior secondary government owned and run rural school,
without any new substantial financial resources, and without any new
manpower.

While the goal is as above we are allowing ourselves some leeway in that
we do have the following additional resources:

-- An able administrator to implement
-- Choice of two additional employees
-- Rs 3 Lakh additional per annum. (some "pocket money")
-- Some freedom in accountability enforcement (such as the ability
to transfer non performing teachers)

General Guidelines:

1. We are assuming a favorable government (which one it is does not
matter..though initial motivation was that Deepender
Hooda would be sympathetic to the cause) who will listen and implement
our suggestions by assigning a model village (fictitious name "Harya")
in which the suggestions would be implemented faithfully.

2. Failure of get such a village would not be seen as failure of this
effort. Our purpose is that of a think tank. Anything we come
up with can provide ANY educator some good ideas to improve the quality
of education with limited resources. At the very least it will have given
all of us a good framework to think about such issues in very realistic
terms like an able administrator would have to do. In no way would
this be a wasted excercise.

3. The end output will be a concrete set of steps to be implemented
in a "brain dead" way...we should already have done the thinking
and nothing is left out to "figure out". Our proposal has to be a
"What to do" and "How to do".

4. We will NOT depend on outside funding. We must depend on the current
resources allocated to the village (with the aforementioned "leeways").
Our goal is to come up with sustainable ideas that can be, if successful,
applied to other villages. Therefore it is important that we work
within the resource constraints. We can't willy nilly ask for anything.

Directions:

1. Discover and define specific issues that hamper the delivery
of quality education (e.g. non-performance of teachers).

2. Brainstorm for solutions within the constraints we have set for ourselves
(ie. we are not going to ask for overhead projectors, and laptops
and satellite t.v.). All we got is what we currently have in a typical
village as already set out.

3. Define concrete steps to implement the solutions...to as much detail
as possible. For instance if we are going to say parents need to
oversee the teachers...then we need to define the setup, procedures etc.

End Output

A document that details 1, 2 and 3 under "Directions"

Essentially we need to put ourselves in the shoes of an able administrator
who has severe constraints of resources but who is honest and wants
to create a system that is workable and sustainable even when he is not
there.

After all isn't that the real challenge ?

Agreement to focus on Paanchvi fails

Yes. We have agreed that this is a good idea. Biggest bang for the
buck. But these again fall within the overall scope of quality
education within the government school system. SO we will be attacking this
as part of that.

Concentrate on changing the mindset towards women

Strong agreement here ! Big question is how does the "administrator"
go about doing that ? One suggestion that I will repeatedly throw
out here is that use our most valuable resources...our students.

Involvement of Experienced Members

Well of course. I'm just waiting for them to knock on the
door. I did not want to make anyone feel obligated since it is more
fruitful if people take interest on their own accord.

But if you insist that anyone needs personal invitation, I'll
happy to send emails to seek their input...and I am desperate for it. :)

Flexibility in terms of location of "Harya"

We ARE completely flexible. But we are assuming everything
on some government involvement as can be seen by the above assumptions.
If the same can be achieved in Rajasthan, UP, Delhi, Haryana, or any
of "our" areas, is just as well.

Regarding Chacha Arya's school. I assume that is a private school and
Chacha Arya has complete freedom in ensuring how it run and that
quality of education is maintained. If he or any private educator finds
some useful suggestions in all of this it would be wonderful. Of course
their guidance and criticism would be highly appreciated

But our specific goal is to focus on government schools. Those are
the ones with the severe problems.

Finance and Donations

As mentioned, for the specific purpose of this brain storming we do not
want to rely on external donations. We just can't if we want to
provide realistic solutions for a model village that we would hope
to be later replicated to other villages.

We need to do with what we got. Hence the brain storming is our
real donation here. Are we good enough to think beyond the
ordinary ?

My dear Raj,

It makes lots of sense. Initially those who think deeply involved [mentally] will be eager to share the initial financial burden which i suppose a few of us can menage. Subsequently a modest contribution [as we progress] will automaticaly forthcoming from the people when they find the people involved sencere enough. This way the venture will look pure and chaste. Thereafter it has to be nurtured and maintained with lots of love and care with great amount of selfless inputs and hardwork. The dream of an ideal village is realisable if a few of us have the passion. No village will be averse to such an adopition. subsequently this village can become the torch bearer for other villages. Yes an able and selfless administrator[full time] along with a few of work hand will be needed. Absolutely sensible and getable. My best wishes!

priti

November 23rd, 2005, 09:20 PM

ACCOUNTABILITY OF GOVT. SCHOOL TEACHERS

Both my mother and my sister in law are govt school teachers in Delhi. Delhi government has been awarded for introducing new methods and systems in its schools to increase accountability and quality of education. FRom this post, I am hoping to draw parallels and generate learning. My mother is nearing retirement and my sister-in-law is the new blood so i had some diverse opinions. I asked them about practices in Delhi govt. schools and their opinions about accountability of teachers. The following are their descriptions and observations:

· Computers have been introduced at most stages of school administration and education:
§ student data: students have ID numbers and their results data and all other information.
§ teacher attendance: if they come after assigned time, it is automatically recorded in the online register. So there is no scope of manipulation like it used to be before- principal’s use of red marks to practice favouritism among teachers. The principal is held accountable if the attendance (teacher) arrives late at the zonal office.
§ confidential reports (CRs): on teacher performance are all dealt with online and sent to the zonal offices. These reports have a section to be filled by teachers themselves on how they have done in a particular period of time and rest of the form is filled by the principal on how a particular teacher has performed on:
o class results
o subject results
o punctuality
o parent-teacher relationship
o how have they encouraged weak students
o moral education
o discipline of the class
o counselling on other social and emotional issues
§
§ Computer Aided Learning (CAL): CDs and softwares: At present it is used for selective subjects like Mathematics and English for some classes. It is also used as Bridge Classes for students who have either dropped out or to advance students to classes appropriate for their age. The schools have computer labs and teachers too.
§ Other interactive learning methods- used of cartoons to create interest and provoke curiosity among students (most of the students in both the schools come from JJ colonies and other poorer sections of delhi and hence are bogged down by many other issues in their lives).
· Increasing discipline for teachers: My mother observed that in last 3 or 4 years the discipline for teachers has become increasingly strict and less easier to escape. She said that most structures for accountability existed before too but the methods of implementation and strictness of higher offices (zonal offices) along with use of technology has improved the situation. With the computer attendance, its just not possible for the teachers to be lax and escape the ‘red mark’. Below are some points:
§ Class teachers are accountable for:
o Appointing class monitors
o Student attendance
o Timetable, Syllabus, periods: the class teacher is accountable that every student should know these three, timetable are pasted in every class.
§ Introduction of UNIT TESTS: these tests are held every Monday on different subjects to encourage students to be vigilant and attentive throughout the year. The results are reported to the offices and these results count 20% in the final assessment, 20% weightage is given to terminal exams (held three times in a year) and 60% to final examination.
§ All question papers for classes 8th, 9th and 10th come from external teachers and the checking of papers is also done by external teachers (schools exchange these papers with each other).
§ If the teachers are not working properly, the principals gives initial warnings and then there could be written action which could stop increments in the salary and position. Not too sure if schools could fire absolutely inefficient teachers or not….dont think so…
· Education on Rights and Self defence: In the morning assemblies, students are made aware of their rights like children below 14yrs should not be working by law and have claim to education aid. The children are also taught some methods of self defence in case somebody is approaching them with hitting intentions.
· Student Aid: A lot of students in these two schools come from minorities like muslim kids and SC/ST. There are special monetary aid for muslim and sc/ST children to incentivise studying rather than working like money for uniform and books, money when students pass their exams.

Other points:

Parents counselling of students who have flunked their unit tests
No report books at home- parents have to come and sign them at school
A tiered system of accountability- schools divided into zones, principals reporting to zonal officers (two- deputy director and education officer), zonal officers reporting to Director at old secreteriate and the director reporting to the education minister.

Education officer- inspections, rounds of schools to ensure proper systems are in place and are being implemented effectively.

This is the story if Delhi Govt. schools which have been awarded. I am yet to get information on haryana schools and what happening there. This write up on delhi schools is just to give an idea of the education system and what are the good points. These points (if new) could be picked up for ‘Harya’s’ school.

In haryana, the information I have is that to increase girl child education and to stabilise the gender ration, the government is offering aid for girl child education and money for the family where a girl is born. I don’t know how correct and effective that is. Main problem in haryana as I see it is absence of higher secondary schools. Most villages have schools only upto 5th standard and if somebody wants to pursue further education than they have to travel. In case if girl child, this is a big impediment.

Hope my primary research helps in anyway J

hamendra

November 23rd, 2005, 10:49 PM

ACCOUNTABILITY OF GOVT. SCHOOL TEACHERS

Both my mother and my sister in law are govt school teachers in Delhi. Delhi government has been awarded for introducing new methods and systems in its schools to increase accountability and quality of education. I am hoping to draw parallels and generate learning. My mother is nearing retirement and my sister-in-law is the new blood. I asked them about practices in Delhi govt. schools and their opinions about accountability of teachers. The following are their descriptions and observations:

· Computers have been introduced at most stages of school administration and education:
§ student data: students have ID numbers and their results data and all other information.
§ teacher attendance: if they come after assigned time, it is automatically recorded in the online register. So there is no scope of manipulation like it used to be before- principal’s use of red marks to practice favouritism among teachers. The principal is held accountable if the attendance (teacher) arrives late at the zonal office.
§ confidential reports (CRs): on teacher performance are all dealt with online and sent to the zonal offices. These reports have a section to be filled by teachers themselves on how they have done in a particular period of time and rest of the form is filled by the principal on how a particular teacher has performed on:
o class results
o subject results
o punctuality
o parent-teacher relationship
o how have they encouraged weak students
o moral education
o discipline of the class
o counselling on other social and emotional issues
§
§ Computer Aided Learning (CAL): CDs and softwares: At present it is used for selective subjects like Mathematics and English for some classes. It is also used as Bridge Classes for students who have either dropped out or to advance students to classes appropriate for their age. The schools have computer labs and teachers too.
§ Other interactive learning methods- used of cartoons to create interest and provoke curiosity among students (most of the students in both the schools come from JJ colonies and other poorer sections of delhi and hence are bogged down by many other issues in their lives).
· Increasing discipline for teachers: My mother observed that in last 3 or 4 years the discipline for teachers has become increasingly stricter and less easier to escaped. She said that most of the structures for accountability existed before too but the methods of implementation and strictness of higher offices (zonal offices) have improved. With the computer attendance, its just not possible for the teachers to be lax and escape the ‘red mark’. Below are some points:
§ Class teachers are accountable for:
o Appointing class monitors
o Student attendance
o Timetable, Syllabus, periods: the class teacher is accountable that every student should know these three, timetable are pasted in every class.
§ Introduction of UNIT TESTS: these tests are held every Monday on different subjects to encourage students to be vigilant and attentive throughout the year. The results are reported to the offices and these results count 20% in the final assessment, 20% weightage is given to terminal exams (held three times in a year) and 60% to final examination.
§ All question papers for classes 8th, 9th and 10th come from external teachers and the checking of papers is also done by external teachers (schools exchange these papers with each other).
§ If the teachers are not working properly, the principals gives initial warnings and then there could be written action which could stop increments in the salary and position. Not too sure if schools could fire absolutely inefficient teachers or not….dont think so…
· Education on Rights and Self defence: In the morning assemblies, students are made aware of their rights like children below 14yrs should not be working by law and have claim to education aid. The children are also taught some methods of self defence in case somebody is approaching them with hitting intentions.
· Student Aid: A lot of students in these two schools come from minorities like muslim kids and SC/ST. There are special monetary aid for muslim and sc/ST children to incentivise studying rather than working like money for uniform and books, money when students pass their exams.

Other points:

Parents counselling of students who have flunked their unit tests
No report books at home- parents have to come and sign them at school
A tiered system of accountability- schools divided into zones, principals reporting to zonal officers (two- deputy director and education officer), zonal officers reporting to Director at old secreteriate and the director reporting to the education minister.

Education officer- inspections, rounds of schools to ensure proper systems are in place and are being implemented effectively.

This is the story if Delhi Govt. schools which have been awarded. I am yet to get information on haryana schools and what happening there. This write up on delhi schools is just to give an idea of the education system and what are the good points. These points (if new) could be picked up for ‘Harya’s’ school.

In haryana, the information I have is that to increase girl child education and to stabilise the gender ration, the government is offering aid for girl child education and money for the family where a girl is born. I don’t know how correct and effective that is. Main problem in haryana as I see it is absence of higher secondary schools. Most villages have schools only upto 5th standard and if somebody wants to pursue further education than they have to travel. In case if girl child, this is a big impediment.

Hope my primary research helps in anyway J
It is and will be happening only on papers. In reality, it is not going to execute on ground level.
If we talk about 5 or 7 years back, Delhi govt school used to have morning and evening shifts due to the less number of students in govt schools now in most of the schools, evening shift is closed.

Why are the number of students getting low in govt schools?

Due to our quality of education and infrastructure in schools.

priti

November 24th, 2005, 01:49 AM

I forgot to add that Training(mainly in the form of seminars) has been made compulsory for the tearchers in delhi government schools on their subjects. In these seminars they are made aware of any changes and/or new additions every year.

Hamendra, my mother works in an evening shift school and my sister in law in the morning shift school (so that one of them is at home at one time...what a cool arrangement!). So I can definitely say that evening schools have not been closed.

I am not sure about student population getting lesser in govt. schools, so cant answer your question about why it is decreasing (if it is).

This is as described by the two govt. school teachers themselves (both jatnis- no defensive attitude) who are working with these provisions everyday. I would not doubt their word and will believe that these provisions have actually been implemented in the least. How much it benefits the students and quality of education also depends on the teaching style and work attitude of individual teachers. Depends what your benchmarks are for quality of education. Atleast the laidback attitude is being tackled.

Also, if you read the purpose and description of this thread as defined by Raj Rathee, the point here is to get ideas and discuss them to arrive at best solutions. We are not discussing whats happening in delhi schools for the sake of appreciating their measures but discussing the merits so that we get some ideas for our topic.

Best wishes
Priti

raj_rathee

November 24th, 2005, 03:39 AM

[COLOR="Blue"][SIZE="3"][FONT="Garamond"]It will be quite some time before the project will be able to deliver palpable positive results; so, you might need to set up an NGO not only to keep the enthusiasm/dream alive but also to keep the govt. machinery on its toes.

Kapoor:

Some really good suggestions here !

---------------------------------------------------------------
Kapoor's key points (reference post #44)

o NGOs can be effective and should not be summarily dismissed
-- Another name for them : "lobbying group"
o Need for a good collection of people
o Petition approach bad. Contact people privately.
-- sincere people on Jatland already turned off
o Deciding on the village itself will be a challenge
o Might need to convince govt. for changes in curriculum
o Info session/guest talks by well placed people can be
useful in changing people's attitude
-- Involve parents ---> just need to light the bulb
o A bunch of areas to be addressed
o Some good reasons to focus on 1 village rather than N villages
o Separation of average kids from bright kids
o Rewarding excellence in teaching...
o Formal organisation is necessary!!!! Not the signed petition
approach.
o Sell the idea to heavy weights...Jats/Non Jats alike...
----------------------------------------------------------------

My comments:

NGOs can be effective

Point well taken ! My knowledge of these and their practicality/usefulness
is limited (non existent). So I am listening ! I appreciate now that these
can be effectively used for "lobbying" and will help to form a structure
around which we can formalise our approaching government, companies,
private indididuals etc.

Thanks Kapoor. I'll keep that in mind as we go forward. When we have
something more concrete in terms of action item we can revisit this
and I'll seek more feedback of what is involved.
[Of course, don't wait till then. Please continue guiding.]

Need for a good collection of people

Absolutely. I am sure there are many here itself. So Jatland and
its members can serve as the initial platform. If we need to
look beyond, we will. This isn't about one community or another.
It is entirely about rural children. Anyhting narrower than that
is not acceptable.

If there are private individuals who would take an interest...
I would love to hear about them and will be happy to follow up
with them...so keep me posted (my email: raj_rathee@yahoo.com).

My initial focus is some good ideas. Can't sell anything to anyone
if we don't know what to sell. So we can scope out people at a later
stage in the effort. First we need some solid ideas.

Petition approach bad. Contact Jatland people privately.

Okay. Will do. Initial request is to solicit input and ideas.
Subsequent to that we can further pursue interested people as
mentioned above.

Deciding on the village itself will be a challenge

Yes. We'll ponder on that when we come closer to needing
to nail that down. There will be many "who" "what" "when"
"where" issues at that point in time. When these variables
become more concrete we'll take that up. [ACTION ITEM NOTED]

Might need convincing govt. of some change in curriculum

Yes. That will likely happen. As we progress further
and discuss the curriculum issues we'll need to tackle this.
[ACTION ITEM NOTED]

Info Sessions/Education of Parents

Yes. Will need to lay this out in implementation details.
[ACTION ITEM NOTED]

Separation of average kids from bright kids

Yes. How we do that will depend on our precise definition
of "quality" goals.

The way I would look at this is not so much as placing kids
into "bright" and "average" groups but rather into two (or more)
X and Y groups where the educational requirements of the groups
are different. The teachers would be the ones who will determine
what group would most effectively help meet the learning requirements
of each child. When needs change the groups can change too.

Parents should have no say in where their child goes, and the system
should not be set up such that anyone gets the impression
that the bright kids and the average kids are being separated
out. We would not suggest use of "bright", "average" terminology.
This would be counter productive in not only that it introduces
bickering and parent "lobbying" (as you suggested), but it would
also negatively effect the mind and enthusiasm of a child
who gets placed in the so called "average" group.

So while the suggestion would be to effectively group students in terms
of ability, the terminology and precedures used would not make that
explicit...but would rather need to be "neutrally" worded in terms
of "individual requirements". [TOPIC TO BE REVISITED]

Rewarding Excellence in teaching

Yes. We need suggestions to do that within the scope of
of discussion. While private schools can do what Kapoor suggested
(singapore trip), these approached might be difficult in our
"Harya" approach.

So we need suggestions here as well.

On second thoughts, for the purposes of the model school "Harya",
maybe Kapoor's suggestion of a trip to Singapore or Goa or ...
might not be far fetched. The government can do it !

In fact if I am not correct the central government already has
something of that nature of central govt. employees where they
can take an all expenses vacation anywhere in India !!!!!!

Lets hear more ideas on this !!!

Sell the idea to heavy weights..Jats/Non Jats alike

Yes absolutely. But lets wait untill we have some good ideas.
[ACTION ITEM NOTED]

raj_rathee

November 24th, 2005, 03:43 AM

[COLOR="Blue"][SIZE="3"][FONT="Garamond"]
To begin with, I will explore the “how to improve quality of education” issue: To make sure that everyone is on the same page, let’s lay out as to how we would measure success of this project.

What is our benchmark for measuring quality of education?

Kapoor:

----------------------------------------------------------------
Kapoor's comments under post #47

o What is the benchmark in measuring quality of education ?
-- number of approaches listed
-- Academic excellence would be difficult on large
scale. Need good teachers. Hard to come by.
-- More resources would be needed if we want to raise Harya
to private school levels
o If idea is sellable to govt. additional 5-10Lakhs should be
no big deal.
o Students co-operatively studying for mutual gain...
---------------------------------------------------------------

My comments:

What is the benchmark in measuring quality of education ?

What I would say here is that entrance to IITs and
AIIMS would *NOT* be the primary goal. Such goals can be
pursued via other avenues.

We would want to:

1) Raise the overall pass percentage for the school
at each level. From 30% to 45% to 60 % ....

2) Increase the student averages in each subject.

3) Ensure that female students are on par with males (or better)
..both in terms of enrollment and performance.

4) Ensure that students become socially conscious citizens
who are *capable of thinking themselves* and applying analytical
reasoning to the world around them. The key thing is they
should be able to *think* and *reason* and *argue*.

5) Good civic sense, responsibility towards society
-- ability to formulate the issues
-- ability to suggest potential solutions

Since *issues of gender equality* is one our key goals here,
the curriculum has to lay strong emphasis on this. Maybe one
approach is to closely tie *gender equality* to each of the social
issues that are taught/learnt/discussed.

Basically the idea here is these students and future parents are
the ones who will bring real change. So we need to "catch them
while they are young".

6) Have a strong sense of what is out there beyond the village
boundaries...the limitless opportunities outside the traditional
fields of engineering and medicine.

7) In additional to analytical ability, have developed strong
language skills. These to are key to everything !!!! *Strong emphasis
here*. The child needs to be able to melt into the urban metro
environment and feel comfortable taking onthe world. He should be able
to market himself no matter where he goes.

8) Be fully prepared for a college education (not necessarily
engineering or medicine). When when it comes to BA there are
people who "did" BA and then there are those who "earned" the BA.
We wanted the "earners" not the "degree holders".

9) *FEEL FREE TO ADD*

I believe that by the time a student graduates from 12 th grade
she/he should be able to what we are doing under this thread !

raj_rathee

November 24th, 2005, 11:46 PM

ACCOUNTABILTY OF TEACHERS
Clearly, the desire of govt. to more closely tie teacher accountability to student performance measures is both a reasonable and a feasible goal. Teachers can significantly impact student learning outcomes, regardless of other influences, and those teachers who don’t have much impact, or whose impact is negative, are simply not doing their job.

Sukhda:

Wow ! You are actually hitting the texts for us. Great
legal minds at work ! Thanks. Couldn't have asked for more.

----------------------------------------------------------------
Sukhda's key points under post #46

o Teacher accountability reasonable and feasible
o An effective teacher evaluation system
-- For specific approaches see above post
o School and District administrators have to be responsible
when problems are systematic.
o Right of Information act should not be overlooked.
----------------------------------------------------------------

An effective teacher evaluation system

The five points raised for this are indeed desirable.
But all of these are very loaded in that to understand
how these are put into practice some serious understanding
and depth in the field of education as well as psychology
is necessary.

These would mean a design of a comprehensive evaluation
system...which I think would be outside our scope
on this site.

So here is what I am thinking and some things that come to
mind:

o As you mentioned, policies etc are already on paper. That
is not the issue. So next question is where can we find this
information ? We got some idea about Delhi from Priti. But how
about Haryana or some other state ?

o Has any of these states defined a comprehensive and detailed
teacher evaluation system as you mentioned. I would assume that
if that is the case than teacher feedback forms, metrics for
evaluation, etc at each grade level would have been detailed. If
so where would that information be available. We would only
need to study it and try to get implemented in "Harya"...or at
least get some subset of it implemented.

So does anyone have information about all this. Information on any
of the state governments would be fine. All we want is to either
take the existing teacher evaluation framework and get that implemented
or pick and choose from it what would be reasonably doable. Devising
this from scratch is not going to be possible for us.

The key thing for us would be to ensure that it gets *implemented*
and we can tailor that according to what is realistic in "Harya".

School and District Admins have to be responsible

Yes that is true if we are looking at the larger scope of the state.
For our limited scope maybe we won't put emphasis on this since the
assumption is that we do have an able administrator.

Right of Information act should not be overlooked

Yes agree in principle. But what exactly do you mean here in the
scope of our current scope ? Can you please expand on that ?
Somethings that come to my mind are:

-- Teacher performance and results should be open
-- Parents should have complete access to all aspects of education of
their children.
-- What else ??

Perhaps you can explain what exactly the "right to information act"
lays out, what are the ground realities regarding it, what can a
parent or community actually do if this right is denied? What are some
of the things that it would apply to in context of "Harya" and how
can we effectively put it to favorable use.

Also, alluding to Kapoor's post, how can NGOs play a role in ensuring
that the act is enforced ?

Also while you are at it, is an "act" different from a legally enforceable
"law" or is it just a statement of principle that doesn't carry much
bite to it ?

If it does carry a lot of bite to it is there a reason we don't see
it in everyday life ? Why are the working of our governments such
a black hole ? For instance can a village citizen ask the village
sarpanch to account for all the funds ?

How can an NGO play a role in this regard ?

-----------------------------------------------

The right to information act:

http://persmin.nic.in/RTI/WebActRTI.htm

hamendra

November 25th, 2005, 12:11 AM

Sukhda:

Wow ! You are actually hitting the texts for us. Great
legal minds at work ! Thanks. Couldn't have asked for more.

----------------------------------------------------------------
Sukhda's key points under post #46

o Teacher accountability reasonable and feasible
o An effective teacher evaluation system
-- For specific approaches see above post
o School and District administrators have to be responsible
when problems are systematic.
o Right of Information act should not be overlooked.
----------------------------------------------------------------

An effective teacher evaluation system

The five points raised for this are indeed desirable.
But all of these are very loaded in that to understand
how these are put into practice some serious understanding
and depth in the field of education as well as psychology
is necessary.

These would mean a design of a comprehensive evaluation
system...which I think would be outside our scope
on this site.

So here is what I am thinking and some things that come to
mind:

o As you mentioned, policies etc are already on paper. That
is not the issue. So next question is where can we find this
information ? We got some idea about Delhi from Priti. But how
about Haryana or some other state ?

o Has any of these states defined a comprehensive and detailed
teacher evaluation system as you mentioned. I would assume that
if that is the case than teacher feedback forms, metrics for
evaluation, etc at each grade level would have been detailed. If
so where would that information be available. We would only
need to study it and try to get implemented in "Harya"...or at
least get some subset of it implemented.

So does anyone have information about all this. Information on any
of the state governments would be fine. All we want is to either
take the existing teacher evaluation framework and get that implemented
or pick and choose from it what would be reasonably doable. Devising
this from scratch is not going to be possible for us.

The key thing for us would be to ensure that it gets *implemented*
and we can tailor that according to what is realistic in "Harya".

School and District Admins have to be responsible

Yes that is true if we are looking at the larger scope of the state.
For our limited scope maybe we won't put emphasis on this since the
assumption is that we do have an able administrator.

Right of Information act should not be overlooked

Yes agree in principle. But what exactly do you mean here in the
scope of our current scope ? Can you please expand on that ?
Somethings that come to my mind are:

-- Teacher performance and results should be open
-- Parents should have complete access to all aspects of education of
their children.
-- What else ??

Perhaps you can explain what exactly the "right to information act"
lays out, what are the ground realities regarding it, what can a
parent or community actually do if this right is denied? What are some
of the things that it would apply to in context of "Harya" and how
can we effectively put it to favorable use.

Also, alluding to Kapoor's post, how can NGOs play a role in ensuring
that the act is enforced ?

Also while you are at it, is an "act" different from a legally enforceable
"law" or is it just a statement of principle that doesn't carry much
bite to it ?

If it does carry a lot of bite to it is there a reason we don't see
it in everyday life ? Why are the working of our governments such
a black hole ? For instance can a village citizen ask the village
sarpanch to account for all the funds ?

How can an NGO play a role in this regard ?
Raj,
If you are talking about the schools of the villages of any of the state of INDIA then the situation is as follows.

1. There is no feedback form for the teachers.
2. Most of the population of the students in the govt schools are of the very poor people or those don't want educate their kids.
3. Most of the teachers(80%) don't go inside the class rooms. They call the students under neem ka darkhat(Tree) in the playground, it doesn't matter even the period of maths or science.
4. Teachers are not updated with the latest news.
5. Most of the teachers talk about teree makka kaisee hai, meree to tubel kee raat motor jal gayee hai, Mera transformer kharab pada hai, Mere gaon mai xyz pradhan ban gaya hai(It is about the male teachers)
5. Lady teachers aake apna sweter buntee hai.
6. SC/ST students are comming only for bajifa (Amount of money, which is given for SC/ST condidate).
7. In priamry schools, in most of the schools, you will find only one teacher to handle 5 classes( From 1st to 5th Class)

Or many more ......................

raj_rathee

November 25th, 2005, 12:23 AM

ACCOUNTABILITY OF GOVT. SCHOOL TEACHERS
Delhi government has been awarded for introducing new methods and systems in its schools to increase accountability and quality of education. FRom this post, I am hoping to draw parallels and generate learning. My mother is nearing retirement and my sister-in-law is the new blood so i had some diverse opinions. I asked them about practices in Delhi govt. schools and their opinions about accountability of teachers. The following are their descriptions and observations:[/FONT][/SIZE]

Priti:

This is excellent information and comes as a big surprise
to me. My knowledge of Delhi schools is quite outdated and
at that time the situtation wasn't all that great..though
a lot better than a rural school in another state.

If this is indeed being implemented and being put
into practice than I must say that Sheila Dixit has been
doing a remarkable job.

I'm not going to summarise all the info you brought
about since that post is loaded with good stuff.

But here are some comments on some specific things:

o The usage of computers in Haryana/Rajasthan/UP etc could
be a challenge. Very few know what to do with them. They collect
dust or either are stolen or stripped for their parts. That is
what has happened in Haryana from what I gathered.

Also I am not sure about internet connectivity. I assume that
if the computers are being maintained for accountability
purposes (attendance and so on) they they must be sending that
information to some central repository. So that could be a
problem.

However, maybe for the pusposes of "Harya" maybe we can assume
that we do have some sort of sort of computerised system.
Perhaps that is not far fetched ????? (Anyone know any better
here).

o Regarding teacher attendance and relying of a computer for this.
It seems to me that what happens is that a teacher is required to
sign-in. I feel that that again is no assurance here. If the
system is on the net than a teacher could sign in from anywhere.
If the system is not on the net then signing in is no different
than before. Teachers share each others id and passwords and sign
in for each other ! So I am not clear how this sytem stops them from
beating the system. It is as much open to abuse than the previous
sign in paper register.

Again that is why I think the students + parents should be the
ones who should have the leading role here.

o I was not under the impression that most schools in Haryana are
only upto 5th grade. I thought most are upto 10th grade and many are
upto 12th now.

But for purposes of "Harya" we are assuming that it is upto
12th grade.

o Most other points that you brought up are indeed very good and
implementable. We'll keep track of them.

For our purposes the context of district level administration etc
would be skipped since we just want to focus on "Harya" and
accountability at "Harya"s level.

BTW: I found the Delhi Education web site as:

http://delhigovt.nic.in/education.asp

I haven't gone through it yet to see what wll is there. I did see that
there was a link for employee attendance.

If others have time they might want to navigate this site to
search for pertinent information for "Harya".

raj_rathee

November 25th, 2005, 12:28 AM

My dear Raj,

The dream of an ideal village is realisable if a few of us have the passion. No village will be averse to such an adopition. subsequently this village can become the torch bearer for other villages. Yes an able and selfless administrator[full time] along with a few of work hand will be needed. Absolutely sensible and getable. My best wishes!

Thanks Dev Chacha for your continued interest.

I was wondering that since you live in Bombay and if I am not
wrong Maharashtra govt. is usally one of the more efficient and
proactive ones, perhaps we might find something
to learn from them ?

Would you happen to know any specifics about what goes on
in *rural* schools in that state ? Perhaps if you have time
you might want to browse for any Mahrashtra site for education
related policies and implementation details.

That information could come in real handy as we try to look into
details of imlementation...like Sukhda and Priti brought out
issues of teacher evaluation and accountability.

Do share with us any info you have or able to find out.

raj_rathee

November 25th, 2005, 12:36 AM

I forgot to add that Training(mainly in the form of seminars) has been made compulsory for the tearchers in delhi government schools on their subjects. In these seminars they are made aware of any changes and/or new additions every year.

Also, if you read the purpose and description of this thread as defined by Raj Rathee, the point here is to get ideas and discuss them to arrive at best solutions. We are not discussing whats happening in delhi schools for the sake of appreciating their measures but discussing the merits so that we get some ideas for our topic.

Best wishes
Priti

Good points Priti.

The training aspects are important. If anyone here knows what Haryana
(or UP, Rajasthan ) has in place for teacher training please share that as
well. This is an important point. But we need to know the ground reality
as well. We cannot expect "teacher training" to be setup just for "Harya".
So if this is already non existent then it might be tough.

However that is what this "think tank" is supposed to figure out.
If there is no such training framework already setup, maybe it could
be possible to have a deal whereby "Harya" teachers can get
additional training via existing infrastructure (eg. via Delhi system, or via
B.Ed courses that are already in place etc.).

In the face of no existing framework we need to find workarounds !What other ideas would people have ?

raj_rathee

November 25th, 2005, 12:43 AM

Raj,
If you are talking about the schools of the villages of any of the state of INDIA then the situation is as follows.

1. There is no feedback form for the teachers.
2. Most of the population of the students in the govt schools are of the very poor people or those don't want educate their kids.
3. Most of the teachers(80%) don't go inside the class rooms. They call the students under neem ka darkhat(Tree) in the playground, it doesn't matter even the period of maths or science.
4. Teachers are not updated with the latest news.
5. Most of the teachers talk about teree makka kaisee hai, meree to tubel kee raat motor jal gayee hai, Mera transformer kharab pada hai, Mere gaon mai xyz pradhan ban gaya hai(It is about the male teachers)
5. Lady teachers aake apna sweter buntee hai.
6. SC/ST students are comming only for bajifa (Amount of money, which is given for SC/ST condidate).
7. In priamry schools, in most of the schools, you will find only one teacher to handle 5 classes( From 1st to 5th Class)

Or many more ......................

Points well taken Hamendra. The overall situation is bad. When I made
refernce to "any" state what I am trying to avoid is specific
reference to Haryana. As mentioned in previous posts "Harya" can be in
any of "our" states...Haryana, Rajasthan, UP. The only caveat
is that of the assumptions already laid out for Harya.

So for the purposes of "Harya" we will continue to assume the
basic infrastructure of a typical "Haryana" 10+2 rural school.

We just want to increase quality for that specific target.

singhkapoor

November 25th, 2005, 06:48 AM

After going through Priti’s post it seems that Delhi govt. has a very comprehensive education policy in place; although it will be interesting to see how much of it is being honestly implemented.

Policy documents are written by senior administrative officials (IAS officers) and it is safe to assume that they have done a good job on paper; so, it is highly likely that Delhi’s neighbor, Haryana, has a “similar” policy in place. The second but more important & difficult part is to get the policy implemented, for this we will need the support of an influential social group and the backing of a sincere politician.

It would save us a lot of energy if we could have access to Haryana’s current policy and see whether it can be further improved, which may not be needed at all. If that's the case, we can concentrate on those portions of the policy that can be easily implemented with the help of the local govt. (panchayat) and the chief minister.

Otherwise, at the end of this exercise, we might end up with a document that in principle is already a part of the current policy but is not being implemented. How about helping the wheel get out of the rut than trying to re-invent it?

Raj’s idea of carrying out the experiment in one village makes a lot of sense because it is more realistic to expect the govt. to take baby steps than to hit the ground running esp. when it has been lying sick in bed since time immemorial. Success of this idea in Harya can act as a catalyst and become a watershed that can forever change people’s attitude towards govt. schools.

Best Wishes

raj_rathee

November 25th, 2005, 07:07 AM

It would save us a lot of energy if we could have access to Haryana’s current policy and see whether it can be further improved, which may not be needed at all. If that's the case, we can concentrate on those portions of the policy that can be easily implemented with the help of the local govt. (panchayat) and the chief minister.

Yes Kapoor. After reading Priti and Sukhda's posts I too think
we should see what exactly the state governments already have
in terms of policy and implementation details.

We can than adapt to those policies and see what we can get
implemented in Harya.

How do we get to such information now ?

Board of education, Haryana web site is:

http://hbse.nic.in/

Directory of govt. sites is:

http://goidirectory.nic.in/haryana.htm

I am wondering to what level of detail this policies are defined.
For instance are teacher evaluation forms described ? If so by whom ?
Are these available somewhere ?

Or is all of this "implementation" details which never got defined
in the first place...in which case we won't have a lot of help.
I am not sure how useful high level policies would be.

But still we need to find out what exists out there.

singhkapoor

November 25th, 2005, 07:17 AM

I found the following link to Haryana’s Education Policy (2000). The policy may very well have been updated since then but it looks quite impressive even if it’s been not.

http://haryana.gov.in/downloads/edu-pol.pdf

Although, this link does not spell out the nitty-gritty as to how the specifics will be implemented on a daily basis; in spirit the policy seems to contain enough to accomplish the desired results (of course, if IMPLEMENTED in earnest).

Cheers

raj_rathee

November 25th, 2005, 07:55 AM

http://www.edudel.nic.in/mis/student/frmStudentFeedBackPeriodWise.aspx

Also checkout the link:

http://www.edudel.nic.in/

Which has a bunch of links at the bottom. Looks like you can get
attendance reports online !!!! for instance checkout the following
link and try a report of your choice.....

http://www.edudel.nic.in/mis/student/frmStudentAttendanceReport.aspx

jagmohan

November 25th, 2005, 02:50 PM

scsheorayan

November 25th, 2005, 03:41 PM

Dear friends,
It is good to discuss this topic and all participants are sincere in their desire to do some thing about it. What that some thing is not clear yet. Fauji has rightly said you can make all the laws but who is going to implement them. The moment we begin relying on others we start losing interest ourselves which is natural.
Some friends seem to think that politicians will make the policies to solve the problem. I have strong doubts about any politician being interested in solving social problems. Let us not forget politics is a very competitive and cut throat business where first and foremost is the survival of self and party. Every thing else is secondary.
On the other hand society can and will change with time. Female Members like Sujata and Priti have a greater role to play than any politician who is more interested in votes than public welfare. Objective here is not to put down any politician (As Raj suggested current leadership may be genuine but beware because there is a conflict of interest here)
Empowerment of girls and change in attitude of the society are the key areas one has to concentrate on. Lead by example and bring awareness that girls are assets and not a liability. To make that happen girls have to really become asset. Elimination of Dowry in any form will be a good start from girl's parents. Instead of saying I will not take dowry for my son start saying I will not give dowry for my daughter or take it for my son. Dowry giving is worse than dowry taking. In to-day's knowledge based society girls are quite capable of taking care of themselves and we all have to show confidence in their capability.

rkumar

November 25th, 2005, 07:33 PM

Quality means different things to different people. Our demand for quality means nothing unless the providers of that particular service also understand it. We may define any quality standards; we will never get them unless the providers are tuned to our requirements. Take a simple example of toilets at our airports or for that matter in any government buildings. Hope you all know who maintain our toilets? The very people who have no access to toilets in their homes and who go and defecate mostly in open. So these people try to provide us the quality of service which they think is best. However this quality is nowhere near to what we expect. Same is true for our education. Quality is being demanded by a section of people who are exposed to very high standards of education and services are provided by people, most of whom rarely excelled in education. Issue is not just of girl child education, but also of entire rural primary, secondary and higher education. Quality of education is not an issue, which is being debated just over Jatland. There are very serious debates going on in every country. This is what Government of India and US has to say, as of today;

1. http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1555968,0008.htm
2. http://informationweek.com/story/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=174401570

I have been writing to every possible concerned person in Indian government for last two years that we need to focus of science and mathematics education in Rural schools as its from where our future scientists will come. Cities will produce only business and commerce graduates. We cannot limit our efforts just for girl child, as boy's education quality is no better. We have to move on all fronts on war footing. Defining quality education in papers is not going to provide quality education. The providers of education have to be sensitive and competent enough to understand the quality being expected. Debates like what we are conducting on Jatland, have to move to schools and in public domain. This will require continuous follow up and action plan. So let us make teams of committed people who understand quality and can teach and motivate the providers of quality education. Our schools have to be brought into competition with the global education.

Rajendra

devdahiya

November 25th, 2005, 10:19 PM

Dear All,

Bhai Raj, thanks for starting a good discussion and also tickling me! I was sort of incommunicado for about a month as I was visiting the real JATLAND. And thanks Sateypal Deshwal for reminding me. Just a little note though. I had promised RK Ji towards contributing to the Cancer Hospital. May be a week’s labor or some such thing. Hopefully in the next few months I should be able to say good bye to Mumbai and be amongst my kith & kin.

To be frank I have nothing much to contribute as worthy members like Sujata Ji, Kapoor Singh, Dev and others have covered almost everything. My views on this issue have been expressed a number of times in other postings. However, my views seem to differ. I don’t know but every time I make a visit back home and travel through Sonepat/Rohtak and Western UP (Ghaziabad – Meerut – M’nagar) I come back a lot dejected. Sad but true. There is a vast difference between what we discuss here, want to do and should be done as against what is actually happening on ground. A race seems to be ON and I don’t know for what.

Coming back to the topic proper: Gender Equality & Education. Very early in life I had expected that ‘Education’ should be able to eradicate social evils from the society. However, that has not happened. Situation is becoming graver by the day and one thing education has not impacted is ‘Gender Equality’. A girl child is seen with the same disdain as centuries ago. There can be exceptions but then exceptions only prove the rule. Why? Because in our search for solutions we forget the basics and till we address the basic issues we would still be far away from remedy. It is like the HR ‘Gurus’ who come out with a management theory every fall and yet the basics of management are never practiced.

We had discussed the JAT mindset in another thread. The discussions were inconclusive, as in most other cases. We have to change our mindset and that would take an effort. It is difficult to do so in a lifetime. What then is the solution? In my humble view, start from yourself. A girl child would be automatically educated, emancipated and empowered should each one of us treats her like a son and gives her equal opportunities. In some societies gender equality is equated with ‘speaking English’, ‘wearing Jeans’ and ‘the mobile culture’. Though the most cultured people I have met in my life are the tribal people of Sikkim, Arunanchal Pradesh & Nilgiris. That is another story.

Government and NGOs can do nothing as long as we as individuals don’t do THE RIGHT THING irrespective of what OTHERS SAY. I have nothing against NGOs but I won’t trust my hard-earned penny to them. Instead I would give it directly to the needy. How does one located in a foreign land contribute? Simply by joining the honest effort of people like Mr Ram Arya Ji, Jagbir Ji and others who are making an effort to change the lives of children at grass root level. Sponsor a few children for a year, to start with, and then see the difference. Make a visit to these institutions, show dreams to the children, be amongst them and make them feel wanted.

The idea of IDEAL VILLAGE was tried a long time back. Those of you who were reading The Hindustan Times in the 70s would remember that they had adopted a village, CHHATERA (Chhatera – Majra) and a weekly article was published in the paper. I have a very close friend from that village, Sumit Kumar, now Secretary Haryana Vidhan Sabha. I don’t know the present condition of the village but I fear it is no different from any other village in that area. Why an Ideal Village in the first place? Please make your home an ideal home and there you have an ideal village without any extra effort.

I recently attended a marriage where surprisingly I met a JATLAND member. The tribe is growing. Though my appetite was spoiled by the talk of exchange of gifts between the families of the groom and bride. “Itne tola sona chadhaya bahu ke” etc. But in that marriage reception I met a number of villagers from my village. Of course they couldn’t recognise me and nor could I. But after talking to them for a few minutes my belief was reinforced yet again and I believe that we have abandoned them to their fate. Something needs to be done and quickly.

Ultra sound clinic close karne se kya hoga? Ye refugee mobile clinic chala deinge, phir kya karoge? Prohibition ke time mein Haryana mein the female folks were fed up. Earlier the man of the house used to come drunk in the night and may be contribute to household chores in day time but during prohibition he started undertaking weekly ‘drinking safari’ in either UP or Rajasthan. Or jisne roj ke karod banaye prohibition ke naam pe vo bhai bhawman ne pyara ho liya hai.

No CM or MP can help. At the most they can facilitate. God helps those who help themselves.

Keep discussing and we would reach our individuals conclusions to help our community in a manner deemed fit.

Regards,

JS Malik

Bang on target Jagmohan sir. The condition of our villages [mindset of people included] has really become pathetic. As said by you....if something is not done at the earliest.....The chances of our people becoming miserable are quite high. As you brought out that every time you visit those places...you find things gone bad to worst and that it is difficult to understand as to what those people want? Frankly they themselves are not aware as to what they want? They are confused and stranded. Jobs are very few, children don't take interest in their studies and land holdings are shrinking. This has compounded the problem further. Sadhan hein nahin, paissa kamane ka jariya nahin, jindaggi mein chenn nahin aur ghar-2 mei laddaiyan. Sorry state of affairs indeed. Then problem is compounded by the migeration of educated people from villages [they don't come back] in search of greener pastures and once they start doing well in life...they dont want their present and future of their children to be ruined by remaining associated with village life [barring a flying visit to parents in a few years time....cant blame them at all] and hence those people are left to fend for themselves like a frog in the well.

Magnitude of the problem is huge and efforts needed are herculian. Singular inputs might light a candle here and there but to bring things on track an immidiate mass movement by many of us in complete rural belts is the answer but then how many of us can get associated in this mass movement when our responsibilities towards our children has not finished[charity begins at home] and many of our dynamic young people who have to find a foothold themselves. We have to get connected at many levels and it has to be a relentless pursuit. Mindset of our people and their negative attitude[in the villages specially] is another cause of concern.if you land up with ideas amongst them and give your heart out...they are sure to say.....bhai tere kese humnne bohot dekh liye...ittne bawle na saan. They don't trust people with noble ideas. hence we have to address so many issues before we undertake any journey in Jatland.......Also a strong financial backing will be of paramount importance. Sujata jiji aur Priti batao America baithh ke ke kar skkein sein [except offering moral support and may be a little bit of money whatever they can save for the charity] inspite of their strong bond and concerns. I will take this plunge sooner or later for sure. My best wishes are with you all. Boond-2 se saagar bante hein.

raj_rathee

November 27th, 2005, 12:16 AM

The idea of IDEAL VILLAGE was tried a long time back. Those of you who were reading The Hindustan Times in the 70s would remember that they had adopted a village, CHHATERA (Chhatera – Majra) and a weekly article was published in the paper. I have a very close friend from that village, Sumit Kumar, now Secretary Haryana Vidhan Sabha. I don’t know the present condition of the village but I fear it is no different from any other village in that area. Why an Ideal Village in the first place? Please make your home an ideal home and there you have an ideal village without any extra effort.

No CM or MP can help. At the most they can facilitate. God helps those who help themselves.

Col. Chacha:

Great to hear that you are heading back home and playing a role
in our communities.

It is true what you say about the feeling of dejection. Just
yesterday a friend of mine came back from India, and everytime that
happens we get a healthy dose of reality...which, of course, doesn't
last too long. The running joke amongst us is that whenever India beckons
and nostalgia sets in take a 2-week trip back home, and that should take
care of it.

One of the comments that my friend made which struck me was that any
Jats who amount to anything are leaving the villages and leaving behind the
good-for-nothings. He was sort of implying that the other communities
will see greater presence and influence in the villages. I don't
know how valid that is but still the comment was striking.

But I guess some of the dejection is the reason why some of us spend
our time and energy discussing it. And hopefully
these discussions spur us to play a role in whatever way we can. Even if
this means starting at "home" and never going beyond that. Sometimes,
I feel that in itself is a major accomplishment in tha face of old
die-hard views in our own families.

I don't know how others feels but I do feel that slow and gradual
change is taking place...in education and gender issues. Maybe I
get that impression because I see more and more urban Jats and I see the
girls in these families being better educated, more assertive, and
seeking a productive life. Perhaps I am seeing the proverbial glass
half-full.

While I also feel that changing lives of some children is a worthy effort
and is one way for us to do our part, there are times I wonder if that is
indeed the most effective way. Could it be that all we are doing is focussing
on a few select children who end up being successful and then move on
to their own successful and materialistic lives and indeed (gasp!) foreign
lands with nary a though for those they leave behind.

It was interesting that you mentioned Village Chhatera. It is my grandmother's
village. And my dad had spent considerable time there. If I remember
correctly he might even have studied there. So I gave my dad a call to
ask him if he knew anything about that. He had very positive comments
to say about that original effort in the 70s. He said it resulted in a lot
of good things...infrastructure improvements, primary schools and so on.
I asked him if the good things lasted. He said that is hard to make
a comment. The village is near Delhi so it might be better off anyways.

I can't comment on what exactly the idea was and how exactly the "model"
village concept was implemented, but a lot would really depend
on that. I was doing some browsing on the web and read
about some model village efforts by UN agencies and saw some very
positive things to read about them.

But, no matter what, I would agree that the key measure of success has to
be that, after the focus shifts from the "model village", is the village
still able to continue with the measures that were implemented. It is
well and good that nice things happen when there is special
focus on the village (as by Hindustan Times in 70s), but key question
is what happens when that focus moves on. Anything
that is implemented has to be sustainable. And that is my key interest
in this whole thread. I wanted to see if something can
be suggested that can be sustainable when the single minded
focus on "Harya" is no longer there (perhaps more on that in a later
post).

It would be interesting to know if anyone has any more information
on the Chhatera effort.

I think the key comment in your post was:

No CM or MP can help. At the most they can facilitate. God helps those
who help themselves.

This is exactly what I am trying to drive towards.

shokeen123

December 7th, 2005, 10:35 AM

Iss thread ke kay hua?:confused:

vinodks

December 7th, 2005, 10:53 AM

poonam

December 9th, 2005, 02:48 AM

Thread ko khansi-jhukham ho gaya... etni jyada sardi hai na eshliye... Raj, bay area mein bhi etni sardi hai kya?? agar nahi to kuchh likho... aur apni Poonam Dhillon aur Priti Zinta kit bhaajgi?

-vinod

Poonam Dhillon shooting main busy hai, woh bhi outdoor shoot...:) Aur Priti Zinta ka pata nahi, bhot dino se baat nahi huee..:D .

BTW ..gotta rush .though tempted to write in here multiple times on the topic initiated by Raj but don't have enough time and space to trigger my thought process..I'm sure you 'hear' me..:)

priti

December 9th, 2005, 08:30 PM

I got some info. from my detective networks :cool: that in haryana, when a girl child is born, the government upon notification, puts a deposit of 20,000 in the girl's name....is it true?? and does it help.....anyone??

Would be great to have a social development forum kapoorji....will definitely concert the efforts...kindly refer to:

http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10303

rkumar

December 9th, 2005, 10:15 PM

..Poonam Dhillon shooting main busy hai, woh bhi outdoor shoot...:) ....

hahahaa..wah ji...khoob kaha... Poonam Dhillon aur shooting me busy...LOL.. kyun bechaari ka majak udaa rahee ho Poonam ji... Pata nahi last shooting kab ki hogee usne...

RK^2

vinodks

December 10th, 2005, 01:02 AM

Is it similar to girl's education and marriage insuarance.. .Beema?.... have heard of it but don't know.. anybody?...

-vinod

I got some info. from my detective networks :cool: that in haryana, when a girl child is born, the government upon notification, puts a deposit of 20,000 in the girl's name....is it true?? and does it help.....anyone??

Would be great to have a social development forum kapoorji....will definitely concert the efforts...kindly refer to:

http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10303

risha

December 12th, 2005, 02:19 PM

Is it going anywhere? oh yeah!maybe raj can finally compile a book with all his good and not so good points,sitting in california.great work it may be called and cud be part of some great library in near future and ,thus ,enlighten a lot more to ,hopefully ,do more.GREAT GOING!

raj_rathee

December 23rd, 2005, 06:56 AM

Folks:

Pardon the long delay in posting here. I don't really have any
excuse except the standard "been busy". My motive here was to
facilitate a discussion and I did want to see
more opinions but these seemed to have dried up.

In general I'll say that some of our more experienced members
have been somewhat cold to the whole idea (here and in a few
private messages), and I suppose it would be prudent to take into
account their scepticism. It has the stamping of past experiences
and bears that baggage. But at the same time we need to continue
thinking anew and continue finding our way around the politicians
...errr...I meant potholes.

We continue to be disheartened with our politicians. If fact I too
was dismayed to hear a few unflattering things about CM Hooda, that
unfortunately, seemed credible. But when it comes to politicians I am
always an optimist. After all, all said and done, how many exactly are there ?
Perhaps less than a 1000 or so in a position of power ! Add up all the
bureacrats, and it still isn't a whole lot. Can't be that difficult to handle
them, would it ?

But what drives my pessimism are the common people who are the end
beneficiaries. Until they themselves can't demand and drive, no one
else is really going to do it for them. If the village parents can't
be brought to seek the quality from their schools, who else is really
going to be bothered ? Some would argue that villagers don't have the
knowledge and understanding for this. Though I can argue for that
to be not true, I would rather say that I don't see much from our
urban citizens either. Everyone seems busy finding their way around
the roadblocks, rather than be concerned about removing those obstacles.

I alluded to my desire to seek solutions where the end beneficiaries
(village parents and children) get to play a key role. While we ended
up with a bunch of ideas regarding what a good education is, I didn't
see any post that sought to address how to actually get the villagers
to demand it. And that I think needed to be the key. We have all heard
of the "Give a man a fish and you feed him once, teach him to fish
and feed him for a lifetime". I think that is the only way to make
a lasting contribution.

If any long term social change is sought, then the end beneficiaries
have to "learn to fish".

On a more practical and real note, I was discussing this with a friend.
I was hoping to get a more detailed note from him describing his
personal experiences in the village, but he hasn't done that so I'll
just summarise those instead.

This friend had sought to get the villagers (in his village) involved
with ensuring that
teachers come to school and teach, i.e. just do what they are paid for.
Nothing fancy here. Just try to ensure that the teachers are doing their
job, no matter how shabbily.

For the first couple of times there was some action. Teachers were
pulled up and made to attend and teach the class. But as you can
imagine this proactive participation on behalf of the sarpanch
and some parents lasted for a while. But very soon it ended up with
the "Bhai aaj nahi ja saka check karne.". The regular "yeh hua", "woh hua".
So that pretty much ended the experiment right there. Something that seemed promising but didn't last since the end beneficiaries themselves weren't bothered.

And that I think will always be the bottom line. Jiska fayaada ho woh khud
kucch na karen toh kaun kya kar sakta hai.

And that of course is easy for us to say. So many of us are in foreign lands
because rather than changing anything we sought escape. Otherwise who
really wants to be in firangi lands when our hearts are back home.
And to that I don't have much of an answer.

As for this thread, unless we have real workable solutions where
the end beneficiaries will play the key role, the thread is dry.

devdahiya

December 23rd, 2005, 08:33 AM

Welcome back Raj.........kadde khu gya tha bhai. You are right...jib tahin jaroorat bandda ke pett mei dard nahin hoga kuchh bhi na ho sakta.

raj_rathee

March 8th, 2006, 03:04 AM

Came across this in the tribune....It mentions setting up of a "model"
school in each district.

Hooda stresses on quality education
Our Correspondent

Rewari, March 7
The Haryana chief minister, Mr Bhupinder Singh Hooda, inaugurated the building of the District Education and Training Institute (DIET) at Hussainpur village, near here, yesterday. The building has been constructed by HUDA at a cost of Rs 1.3 crore.

The chief minister said that while a 50 per cent hike had been made in the budgetary allocation for education, the government was also going to set up a model school in each district of the state.

He said owing to lack of quality education here about 1.5 lakh qualified youth had been commuting from Delhi to Gurgaon to do jobs, while “our own youths are almost languishing in idleness”. Emphasising the urgency of reversing this trend, he said only a big change in the quality of education could enable the youth to compete with their Delhi counterparts.

The Education minister, Mr Phool Chand Mulana, also spoke.

Later Mr Hooda laid the foundation stone of Rs 3.52-crore canal-based water supply scheme for Bawal town at Khera Murar village, near Bawal.

Addressing a large gathering on the occasion, he mentioned about the Rs 260-crore Bhakra main line Hansi-Butana branch link canal, asserting that after its completion nobody would be able to prevent south Haryana from getting its legitimate share of the available canal.

He disclosed that while a water supply scheme worth Rs 23 crore had been sanctioned for rural areas of the district, an allocation of Rs 18 crore had also been made for augmentation of drinking water supply in Rewari town.

The chief minister also inaugurated an e-Disha centre at the district secretariat here. The centre comprising 10 service counters would provide effective and speedy services to the farmers and the general public at large.