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devdahiya
March 9th, 2006, 03:17 PM
Yesterday i was talking to a truly educated woman and i happen to ask her," Are you happy with the way women are and treated in India?" She thought for a while and said," No,not at all....i will be happy only when a women can walk alone in the streets of any small dusky town of Bihar and North India at any given time of the day or night;and come back home without any stride remark being passed and unharmed; When travelling in buses and trains won't be a shameful expirience; when i can drink and dine alone like men do in a restraunt without being haunted by prying eyes; i can go to a police station to lodge a complaint and come back safe from there;i can put my arms around my buddy in a public place and will not be taken for a loose moral etc-2.

I pondered and still pondering.....will come out with much more in this regard as the woman in question talked in length and i listened each word stunned.

choudharyneelam
March 10th, 2006, 06:34 AM
Yes sir....that all true...every girl has to think twice before putting every step out..it is unsafe to go alone anywhere....but i'll say today girls are also no less than guys...they wear short dresses and walk on roads at late night....went to pubs/bars to have fun....and many more things like that what a girl should not do....i wonder how their parents allow them for all those things....so it is sometime girls only who create such unsafety environment.....God has created woman that always attracts men...so i think every girl must know her limits....i mean if she is female she must think like that only and should not compare equal to males....it's good that she is reaching high and competing with men in career but few things should not be compared with them.

priti
March 10th, 2006, 07:20 PM
Hi Neelam

Couldn't resist writing a response to your post. It seems like you are attributing all the wrong things happening to women/girls to their dressing and attitude. How do you justify rapes in remote areas where women dont wear mini skirts and are fully covered in salwar kameez. How many girls out there have protected themselves from eve-teasing by wearing salwar kameez. If covering themselves was the shield from all the unpleasant experiences, then I think eve-teasing should not exist in India since we have been wearing all wrapped up clothes for ages in now.

Anyway, clothing apart, I think what Mr. Dahiya was refering to when saying that females themselves are to be blamed for their exploitation meant that they bend easily for emotional or other security. They dont stand up for themselves or for other women and many times they perpetuate it. We are all surrounded by women, half of the world is women, why are we still being exploited (this is not to say that men dont ever get exploited)? This is the question to ask and i think the key would lie in questioning the decisions we take, and the support/opposition we give to others.

I totally agree with you that women are equal in their own right and not in comparison. We should never strive to be like men because we are not them and they are not us, there are natural, biological differences but what certainly can do is not to get expoited on the basis of outdated traditions and 'what a girl should be like or should do'. There is nothing like SHOULD in this world...its just perspectives...which could be changed...

bebe, I'm glad that you are here and writing this....this in itself is a progress....please keep writing....

yours truly
Priti



Yes sir....that all true...every girl has to think twice before putting every step out..it is unsafe to go alone anywhere....but i'll say today girls are also no less than guys...they wear short dresses and walk on roads at late night....went to pubs/bars to have fun....and many more things like that what a girl should not do....i wonder how their parents allow them for all those things....so it is sometime girls only who create such unsafety environment.....God has created woman that always attracts men...so i think every girl must know her limits....i mean if she is female she must think like that only and should not compare equal to males....it's good that she is reaching high and competing with men in career but few things should not be compared with them.

keshavdahiya
March 10th, 2006, 07:28 PM
Yesterday i was talking to a truly educated woman and i happen to ask her," Are you happy with the way women are and treated in India?" She thought for a while and said," No,not at all....i will be happy only when a women can walk alone in the streets of any small dusky town of Bihar and North India at any given time of the day or night;and come back home without any stride remark being passed and unharmed; When travelling in buses and trains won't be a shameful expirience; when i can drink and dine alone like men do in a restraunt without being haunted by prying eyes; i can go to a police station to lodge a complaint and come back safe from there;i can put my arms around my buddy in a public place and will not be taken for a loose moral etc-2.

I pondered and still pondering.....will come out with much more in this regard as the woman in question talked in length and i listened each word stunned.

Despite many positive developments in securing women's human rights, discrimination against women continues to be embedded in the social system in many parts of the world. Truely speaking this situation is almost every where on the globe may it be US or France or any asian country....difference is just the extent of exploitation and the way people in a society treat women and repect.....
obviously the situation is ineviatbly unavoidable and we cant actually make it better.Today emancipation of woman and equality with man have become important issues. but thats so bookish and rubbish atleast i cant beleive that......
JUST waiting for more replyies for the time being

devdahiya
March 10th, 2006, 11:51 PM
Neelam and Priti you both have a point here and very difficult to contradict. Yes the women in question had to say something like this and mind you it was a eye opener stuff for me too. Here are the views of that very strong women if i dare use that word for her[the way i percieved]:


Many women feel that they are not treated farely by the society most of the time whether it may be in pursuing things of interests or jobs,making decisions about finances or for that matter major issues concerning the family,regarding following of rituals or for that matter the way they want to get dressed.......they feel short-changed. But have we[the women] ever wondered as to why these things happen to us..instead of pointing accusing fingers all around? As per her the women accept that they are but helpless victims...and they they never pay attention to the very plausable reasons as to why the women allow themselves to be subjugated?


As per her THE OPERATIVE WORD is ALLOW! She adds; why the women do not express their views boldly and laudly, Why do they prefer and choose the roles of the OPPRESSED, why women believe that their place is really in the house and that without that Wedding ring around their fingure and a child in tow,they are next to nothing? Women are not true to themselves...they just fake things...they bring upon those very things that they claim so vehemently they don't want. Excuses women silently offer to these ponderings...' we are doing what we are taught! and aren't we conditioned to be this way'........It is the question of choices women make,she adds.


She goes further and very strongly advocates that women have to start believing that they deserve the good life,and that happiness and liberty their birth right and that happiness is meant for them too. Women validation does not come from external sources but most of the women don't think that way.Women have to think and feel that they are worthwhile by themselves and that on their own they can exist and exist beautifully. So instead of blaming society,our culture,our family,our upbringing and circumstances,women instead have to take responsibilities for the mess they are in. Spotlight needs to be turned inward on women's inherent self-limiting and handcuffing ideologies.These must be put to test,challenge and uproot their self-imposed chains and break free. She feels very strongly that women's freedom and liberation will have to come from them only as others don;t have the time to lookafter their interests and if the women choose to wait for the system or the culture to change things for them then women may be left waiting. So initiative has to be taken,sacrifices have to be made and battles have to be fought by women themselves.Women have to get rid of the ideas that have made them self sacrificing and self-defeating.


In the end she quoted Nietzsche[a great philosopher]..i quote," The matter is not to have convictions but rather to have strength to challenge those convictions." ...unquote.

deepakchoudhry
March 11th, 2006, 12:34 AM
Dev Sir,

This is the result of hundreds of years of conditioning and its not easy to change people, esp if it suits them.

The West has made great progress in this regard..and they have made sure this issue is addressed at all the levels in this society be it primary education or social justice. There are are support systems for women who need it.


Deepak

virenderkhokhar
March 11th, 2006, 01:44 AM
Neelam and Priti you both have a point here and very difficult to contradict. Yes the women in question had to say something like this and mind you it was a eye opener stuff for me too. Here are the views of that very strong women if i dare use that word for her[the way i percieved]:


Many women feel that they are not treated farely by the society most of the time whether it may be in pursuing things of interests or jobs,making decisions about finances or for that matter major issues concerning the family,regarding following of rituals or for that matter the way they want to get dressed.......they feel short-changed. But have we[the women] ever wondered as to why these things happen to us..instead of pointing accusing fingers all around? As per her the women accept that they are but helpless victims...and they they never pay attention to the very plausable reasons as to why the women allow themselves to be subjugated?


As per her THE OPERATIVE WORD is ALLOW! She adds; why the women do not express their views boldly and laudly, Why do they prefer and choose the roles of the OPPRESSED, why women believe that their place is really in the house and that without that Wedding ring around their fingure and a child in tow,they are next to nothing? Women are not true to themselves...they just fake things...they bring upon those very things that they claim so vehemently they don't want. Excuses women silently offer to these ponderings...' we are doing what we are taught! and aren't we conditioned to be this way'........It is the question of choices women make,she adds.


She goes further and very strongly advocates that women have to start believing that they deserve the good life,and that happiness and liberty their birth right and that happiness is meant for them too. Women validation does not come from external sources but most of the women don't think that way.Women have to think and feel that they are worthwhile by themselves and that on their own they can exist and exist beautifully. So instead of blaming society,our culture,our family,our upbringing and circumstances,women instead have to take responsibilities for the mess they are in. Spotlight needs to be turned inward on women's inherent self-limiting and handcuffing ideologies.These must be put to test,challenge and uproot their self-imposed chains and break free. She feels very strongly that women's freedom and liberation will have to come from them only as others don;t have the time to lookafter their interests and if the women choose to wait for the system or the culture to change things for them then women may be left waiting. So initiative has to be taken,sacrifices have to be made and battles have to be fought by women themselves.Women have to get rid of the ideas that have made them self sacrificing and self-defeating.


In the end she quoted Nietzsche[a great philosopher]..i quote," The matter is not to have convictions but rather to have strength to challenge those convictions." ...unquote.

Well said but it smells quite similar to change an existing system like corruption inbibed in our govt organisation...these kind of things do need revolution and hence sacrifices have to be made..so womenfolk be ready for the sacrifices and being so defiant in not an easy task...may be mr. dahiya or me can quote these kind of things so boldly coz we are men but wat if we wud have been women ...i think we wudnt have dared to be like this.....
quite an irony at this jatland ...on one side we critise MAALIKA SEHRAWAT for being so bold and defiant and on the other hand we r urging these women to b bold!!!!...sounds strange and this is despite ms. sehrawat making successfully place for herself...wat if she wud not have been successful...she wud be left alone in this world as she has already been estranged from the family..wud have suffered the plight for her entire life........so behind every successful person is not a women, its lots of unsuccessful persons....
so dear sisters, mothers, ..etc. be ready for this kind of a long and patholed road...
our society being patriarcal ....men edging over women in physical strength and financial dependence of women . womenfolk cant get stronger physically...so the way left is being financial independence..this can be achieved through education...so women b given more opportunities may be by providing reservation...this all can happen by the support of men ...so the men, who think that this gender bias is to b abolished, can contribute a lot alongside womenfolk ....this will make the path more comforting.....
so this goal, gender equality, can be achieved to some extent by the joint efforts of women and men(who think against this gender bias).....lone battle otherwise wud b tough one and this has to be done in a sensible and gradual way

lets hope and wish gud luck

devdahiya
March 11th, 2006, 02:04 AM
Well said but it smells quite similar to change an existing system like corruption inbibed in our govt organisation...these kind of things do need revolution and hence sacrifices have to be made..so womenfolk be ready for the sacrifices and being so defiant in not an easy task...may be mr. dahiya or me can quote these kind of things so boldly coz we are men but wat if we wud have been women ...i think we wudnt have dared to be like this.....
quite an irony at this jatland ...on one side we critise MAALIKA SEHRAWAT for being so bold and defiant and on the other hand we r urging these women to b bold!!!!...sounds strange and this is despite ms. sehrawat making successfully place for herself...wat if she wud not have been successful...she wud be left alone in this world as she has already been estranged from the family..wud have suffered the plight for her entire life........so behind every successful person is not a women, its lots of unsuccessful persons....
so dear sisters, mothers, ..etc. be ready for this kind of a long and patholed road...
our society being patriarcal ....men edging over women in physical strength and financial dependence of women . womenfolk cant get stronger physically...so the way left is being financial independence..this can be achieved through education...so women b given more opportunities may be by providing reservation...this all can happen by the support of men ...so the men, who think that this gender bias is to b abolished, can contribute a lot alongside womenfolk ....this will make the path more comforting.....
so this goal, gender equality, can be achieved to some extent by the joint efforts of women and men(who think against this gender bias).....lone battle otherwise wud b tough one and this has to be done in a sensible and gradual way

lets hope and wish gud luck



My dear Virendrer ji, Changes have taken place and are taking place but still women have not come out of the clutches of self assumed slavery. Liberty does not mean not seeking responsibilities and not being responsible....infact it is to the contarary. With liberty come the more responsibilities but attached are the appriciations and rewards,which majority of women do not recognise these facts or may be not allowed to think and practice. whatever the case and how so ever difficult the challenge,this journey would have to be undertaken by the women themselves and mind you if they need any support[Which i feel they don't and should not] it comes easily as majority of men want them to be a dignified and independent human beings. God help those who help themselves. Thanks for the useful inputs dear.

downtoearth
March 11th, 2006, 02:20 AM
Traditionally,,, our women, though confined to a homemaking role, held a very respectable position in a society,,,bt today when our women are becoming more independent and stepping out of their homes, their respectability and security is being threatened by men ....ib ram-raj khatam ho liya sey,,,crime on women has increased,,,,growing like Indian eceonomy:cool: aur aagey - aagey nuey badhegi,,,Though men are responsible for most of them,,,, I would not rule out that women are responsible for some of them,,,To solve any problem one should start with root causes, as there is no way solve this social issue through invidual diagnostics.....First of all every women should repect other female as a person and should be ready to help under all circumstances......... Abortion and female infanticide can only be prevented by women,,,,,, but it requires love and respect from women on their own gender than courage and commitment.....
aur to walk alone in bihar` street,,, to sip n dine alone ,,, etc,, etc,,,,,yey saarey saapney iss RAM pey to purrey howey koni,,,,,,,:mad: :rolleyes: ,,, khaskar india mein to.....bt lets hope for the best.................

priti
March 11th, 2006, 04:00 AM
Lagta hai Dahiya Saab ka pahli baar kissi kasuti feminist se pala pada hai...anyway, i wouldn't call her a feminist as it is sometimes taken to be a negative term and i think what she says is universal knowledge

But Dahiyaji, i dont understand why you are so surprised by her words, i just assumed that many women already stand up for themselves, educated or otherwise, who are strong (at this point i would like to draw your attention to one thread entitle 'women of strength'...anyway) but then as pointed by another jat bhai, you have to admit that social settings matter and and one who attempts to break out of the social settings risks being ostracised....and not all humans (why talk just about women here) are strong enough to take on criticism and the risk of being cast outside the society.

Only solution to make women as strong as this woman you talked to is- is to make them individualistic, but there is a caveat...you might not like her that way! everyone symphathises with a bechari woman, and many (read men and women) criticise a strong women who follows her own convictions and not the rules of the society (read mallika sherawat as one mentioned in this thread- dont want to get into the debate of her means to be a strong women- but the point that she made it the way she wanted it).

so not everyone likes strong women....and thats why many dont want to be strong because most common human nature is to be liked by others!

your take...


Neelam and Priti you both have a point here and very difficult to contradict. Yes the women in question had to say something like this and mind you it was a eye opener stuff for me too. Here are the views of that very strong women if i dare use that word for her[the way i percieved]:


Many women feel that they are not treated farely by the society most of the time whether it may be in pursuing things of interests or jobs,making decisions about finances or for that matter major issues concerning the family,regarding following of rituals or for that matter the way they want to get dressed.......they feel short-changed. But have we[the women] ever wondered as to why these things happen to us..instead of pointing accusing fingers all around? As per her the women accept that they are but helpless victims...and they they never pay attention to the very plausable reasons as to why the women allow themselves to be subjugated?


As per her THE OPERATIVE WORD is ALLOW! She adds; why the women do not express their views boldly and laudly, Why do they prefer and choose the roles of the OPPRESSED, why women believe that their place is really in the house and that without that Wedding ring around their fingure and a child in tow,they are next to nothing? Women are not true to themselves...they just fake things...they bring upon those very things that they claim so vehemently they don't want. Excuses women silently offer to these ponderings...' we are doing what we are taught! and aren't we conditioned to be this way'........It is the question of choices women make,she adds.


She goes further and very strongly advocates that women have to start believing that they deserve the good life,and that happiness and liberty their birth right and that happiness is meant for them too. Women validation does not come from external sources but most of the women don't think that way.Women have to think and feel that they are worthwhile by themselves and that on their own they can exist and exist beautifully. So instead of blaming society,our culture,our family,our upbringing and circumstances,women instead have to take responsibilities for the mess they are in. Spotlight needs to be turned inward on women's inherent self-limiting and handcuffing ideologies.These must be put to test,challenge and uproot their self-imposed chains and break free. She feels very strongly that women's freedom and liberation will have to come from them only as others don;t have the time to lookafter their interests and if the women choose to wait for the system or the culture to change things for them then women may be left waiting. So initiative has to be taken,sacrifices have to be made and battles have to be fought by women themselves.Women have to get rid of the ideas that have made them self sacrificing and self-defeating.


In the end she quoted Nietzsche[a great philosopher]..i quote," The matter is not to have convictions but rather to have strength to challenge those convictions." ...unquote.

devdahiya
March 11th, 2006, 07:30 AM
Lagta hai Dahiya Saab ka pahli baar kissi kasuti feminist se pala pada hai...anyway, i wouldn't call her a feminist as it is sometimes taken to be a negative term and i think what she says is universal knowledge

But Dahiyaji, i dont understand why you are so surprised by her words, i just assumed that many women already stand up for themselves, educated or otherwise, who are strong (at this point i would like to draw your attention to one thread entitle 'women of strength'...anyway) but then as pointed by another jat bhai, you have to admit that social settings matter and and one who attempts to break out of the social settings risks being ostracised....and not all humans (why talk just about women here) are strong enough to take on criticism and the risk of being cast outside the society.

Only solution to make women as strong as this woman you talked to is- is to make them individualistic, but there is a caveat...you might not like her that way! everyone symphathises with a bechari woman, and many (read men and women) criticise a strong women who follows her own convictions and not the rules of the society (read mallika sherawat as one mentioned in this thread- dont want to get into the debate of her means to be a strong women- but the point that she made it the way she wanted it).

so not everyone likes strong women....and thats why many dont want to be strong because most common human nature is to be liked by others!

your take...



And Priti Ma'm that is what the crux of the problem is......Not wanting to be the way they like to be........Thats what she too said precisely............Women have to break free from this notion to make a begining.

devdahiya
March 13th, 2006, 07:26 PM
It is the problem of the ladies,for the ladies and with the ladies......I mean mindset............The day it breaks..........women will automatically liberate.

devdahiya
April 16th, 2006, 09:47 PM
Where are the ladies......?

vijay
April 16th, 2006, 10:48 PM
Well,
The actual problem is the mindest of women too. I had seen so many times that women thinks if there is no man in the family how difficult to survive for them. And apart this saas-bahu confortation tells all about that.

But things are changing now. Womens are getting stronger and bolder to face the World. As moderaters we should respect that they should have their own identity.

Yes, we mens are going to play the major role in that too. To respect a female as a human being just equal to us. It's very hard for the orthodox people and some showie modern people.

I just came across here with a person at jatland residing in US who besides puting some juicy thoughts on womens just tried to preach a women from his caste (gotra) to cover her head.

Well,

Long way to go. Women. Really.

My all regards to women and best of luck.

dahiyarules
April 17th, 2006, 10:08 AM
I do not see women as oppressed.Infact I do not see any human as oppressed anywhere in the world. People are oppressed because they let it happen to them. If someone is oppressed they need to stand up to it and fight the oppression. To continue giving in to opression is a sign of mental weakness.

I do not care if women go to school, get jobs or drive cars. Infact I do not care what they do. And so do most people. If someone cares, its their personal problems. But, definitiely I cannot tell my neighobor to stop sending his daughters to school, or get hs wife to quit a job or get his mom to stop driving a car. So, even if people care about women do, it hardly makes any difference, because it is finally upto the women to what they really want to do.

We live in a free society, where women have equal opportunities. Women can do what men can do. Now, this leav no ground for women to keep complaining about equal opportunities.

poonam
April 17th, 2006, 10:49 AM
I just came across here with a person at jatland residing in US who besides puting some juicy thoughts on womens just tried to preach a women from his caste (gotra) to cover her head.


Oh no! That was just a joke Vijay..perhaps you did'nt get it..:) Amit is a very good friend of mine and he was just trying to pull my leg...in vain though..;) :D

Well ...you are right though.. that women have a long way to go until people discard their double standards regarding their women!

sansanwalamit
April 17th, 2006, 11:11 AM
I just came across here with a person at jatland residing in US who besides puting some juicy thoughts on womens just tried to preach a women from his caste (gotra) to cover her head.



Vijay,

I hope it is clear to you now that it was just a joke, which you took to heart. Had I known such would be the reaction I wouldnt have played it. And yes women have a long long way to go in our society.

P.S. I reside in Canada not in US.

vijay
April 17th, 2006, 07:16 PM
Vijay,

I hope it is clear to you now that it was just a joke, which you took to heart. Had I known such would be the reaction I wouldnt have played it. And yes women have a long long way to go in our society.

P.S. I reside in Canada not in US.


Ok Bro,

Never mind, i didnt know that you were joking.

Cheers !