The Demonic Side of RSS, the only side I know [Archive]

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birbal

June 12th, 2006, 07:28 PM

I have known RSS as the strongest anti-Jat force in Rajasthan for the past 55 years. But, more than being anti-Jat, I have found these people to be cowardly, liars, and cheats. Although they talk of nationalism, I have not known any of them to join armed forces to sacrifice their life for the country,
where in Jhunjhunu district, almost every Jat family has members who sacrificed their life for the country.

Essentially, these people are generally petty goonda types who superficially do some good deeds as described by some members for public relations purposes. In recent years, the organization has been used for massive fund raising purposes by senior goondas like Pramod Mahajan.

On the specific story of the one of the brightest Jat young man, Sanwat Singh, who was stabbed to death by one of the closest associate of Vajpayee, Mr. Virendra Saklecha (later Chief Minister of Madhya Pradesh) and several RSS goondas on January 31, 1948, is a matter of court record. A case was lodged in Jhunjhunu against these people, but in those days there was not much justice for Jats. For further refernce to this, read "Shekhawati mein Swatantrata Aandolan Ka Itihas," by Mohan Singh.

In a strange twist of politics, when the Jan Sangh people realized that they have to broaden their party beyond RSS, the BJP was formed where some Jats also joined it. One of the current BJP MP from Churu district in Rajasthan is a Jat, Mr. Ram Singh, and he was a class mate of my wife in Ramgargh, Shekhawati, and my wife always describes him as a brave fighter against RSS goondas in Ramgarh. Those people who support RSS should talk to this BJP Member of Parliament.

Further to this political twist, although some Jats are in BJP, RSS people do not vote for Jat BJP candidates. In an attempt to defeat Mr. Sisram Ola, the current Jhunjhunu MP, and cabinet minister, the BJP put a Jat candidate, Mrs. Santosh Ahlawat against him. But, all the RSS people voted against the Jat BJP candidate and Mr. Ola was reelected. In Jhunjhunu, assembly seat, the BJP put up a Jat, Mrs. Sumitra Singh (current speaker of Rajasthan), and the RSS cadre made demonstrations against her but she won on Muslim and Jat votes.

Just remember that even in the time of the most anti-Hindu and cruelest of Muslim, Aurangzeb, some Hindus occupied high positions. Also, after the recent earthquake in Kashmir, the terrorist groups were most active in humanitarian activities. Does that make them decent people?

I am not interested in changing opinions of any narrow minded, selfish people, who look at their own interests in helping a common enemy of a community, but at least know your facts.

rkumar

June 12th, 2006, 07:57 PM

There is no doubt that BJP cadre (read RSS) has always been anti Jat. Most BJP leaders are opportunist to the lowest level and can change 180 degree. We all know how Advani changed on Jinnah. There is hardly any BJP leader know for his/ her role in freedom struggle of nation. People like Advani will even convert to Islam if assured of Prime Minister ship. BJP and moral don't go together. Other parties are no better but certainly not as low as BJP.

RK^2

mukeshkumar007

June 13th, 2006, 07:54 PM

naresh.mehta

June 14th, 2006, 09:40 AM

birbal

June 14th, 2006, 09:14 PM

@ Mr Birbal
Being a new guy into politcs.. cant comment much abt wat happened bak in 50s.. no point digging graves.. !
Also I felt that most of your anti RSS comments r based on wat happened in shekhawati zone.. but then RSS in a national party right??

Wat about its activities in other regions.. I was of the view that these ppl have been into many social works esp in maharashtra n bihar.. and they have been effective in confronting many local dadas n shiv sainiks in the maratha region!

Well certainly as the electoral facts reveal ... they have not been gud for us..! never voted for jat candidates, but is that the sole criterion to state that they are .. xyz!

I heard n rather had personal experience of the highheadedness with which RSS implements its policies.. at times it goes beyond the tolerance zone of democratic constitution.. but only at times!! wat about the other works of RSS .. whr they more than often keep a perfect moral check on society ... (though it is unconstitutional!) ... the work they have done for educating poor biharis n nepali kids in bihar n jharkhand!

watevr... I am not trying to argue as such ;) .. just a query!! I shall fully abide by watevr the more experienced ppl of the community say! :)

Naresh,

Do not misunderstand my comments that I am picking only at RSS. I vehementally oppose all such top down, authorotative, and totalarian organizations ranging from extreme left to extreme right on the political spectrum. Just because they indulge in occassional humanitarian activities, is not sufficient to make them good organizations. Obviously, my Hindu friends on this site take offence when I relate RSS to LeT or JeM, but I am always outspoken on this issue, and I have Muslim friends in Canada who take offence on equating LeT with RSS that was the principal force in butchering over 2,000 Muslims in Gujerat. But, I am used to such criticism.

Coming back to the main point, RSS and similar organizations (who say 'my God is better than your God') are extremely orthodox in nature. But, as George Orwell wrote "Orthodoxy is unconsciousness, orthodoxy is not thinking - not needing to think." There is no room for dissent in these organizations. Let us face it, intelligence is what separates us from other animals. To give up your to think is to deny yourself your humanity.

My opposition to these groups start from the schools they run because they ruin the future of untold number of innocent children. It does not matter whether you look at the Madarasas or the RSS schools, (or even few Christian schools I have seen in Canada), what they provide can not be classified as education in true sense. They destroy the basic human capacity of independent thinking.

Jeremy Bentham (1748-1832) argued for the separation of Church and State, individual and economic freedom, freedom of expression, equal rights of women, animal rights, and the end of slavery. Though his name is not a household word, most of the progress of the Western world can be attributed to his ideas advanced and refined by his followers. He was the first one to support education of ordinary, poor people (who were not allowed to enter Cambridge and Oxford in those days), and started the University College of London (where his stuffed body is still kept and brought to Faculty meetings) because he believed that it will produce enlightened and public spirited statesmen who will overcome conservative stupidity. It proved right to a great extent for the Western world.

But, Dr. Hegdewar (the founder of RSS), and his mentor, B.S. Moonje decided to make Italian Fascists and German Nazis as their role models. Moonje travelled to Italy to meet Mussolini and fashioned the training RSS Sakhas on the Fascist methods. Golwalker, the second head of RSS celebrated Nazi Germany, and the "purging" of an entire people was entirely justifiable to him as it was an expression of "national pride at its highest.."

From an objective view, RSS meets the criteria of a terrorist organization (see http://www.terrorism.com ), and I am sure sooner or later it will be declared one. Remember, President Reagan had praised Bin Laden and the Jihadis as freedom fighters not long ago. Look at the price the world has paid for the temporary benefits received from the terrorists.

You mention that RSS people fought the local 'dadas'. Remember,that RSS people are the 'dadas'. How do you think Pramod Mahajan coming from a poor background, accumulated assets estimated to be worth Rs. 10,000 Crores? When I say I knew these people mainly as goondas 55 years ago, nothing has changed as these people are now bigger goondas who deal with thousands of Crores of assets.

ratananmol

June 14th, 2006, 09:35 PM

Dear Prof. Singh:
Your views come with a precision which is not possible for someone as young as myself. I think it should make people question their loyalties and faith.
Best Regards, Anmol.

naresh.mehta

June 14th, 2006, 10:54 PM

Sir,
Acknowledging the fact that it is only in past one decade or so that India has actually started rolling... The average Indian has become smart and independent enough to make hiw own decisions for livelihood. Let us go back to the 80s !! And let us try to establish the role of this organisation RSS back then... reminding u of the fact that there were no Let and Al Qaidas back then to battle...

RSS was the sole light of ray and hope... only medium of education and enlightenment for the poor dalits , adivasis and 'left out' ones. Congress and other political parties were catering to only the upper end of the society... while the poorer and unaware ones who could not affect the vote banks were left negl;ected by these so called 'liberal' .. pro development and rightists !!

I agree both these extremes of left and right have been doing nothing but hatching their own eggs for years now.. but RSS leaders are a little different.. they have a sincere vision and they are working with all the dedication to achieve that.. the vision may not suit that well now in the 21st century ... but it was highly instrumental in mobilizing and empowering the weaker people!!

They gave sticks.. taught sports and warfare to youth... Is it wrong to hone the physical skills of young generation... ?? If yes they might have been wrong.. but i beg to differ... these skills and strength are not fitting well in this technology driven world of IT but it was very handy for them to counter the high headed upper caste rich people in orissa and bihar!

We dont start blaming and yelling over our grandparents who preach not to stay out after 10 in the night.. we dont point fingers at them for being concerned for out morality... our ettiquetes.. They do it for two basic reasons:
1) because they really care for us.. and to them our late night parties are actually wrong... they think according to their times... probably unaware of the corrupt westernisation !
2) They want to be heard and to be felt important!! .. An old man is like a baby!!

Now ... RSS is pretty much in the same situation.. the founders of the RSS had a vision which was perfect for that time.. they had to take help of Nazis and Mussolini 'coz these powers were anti british...!!
Now Sir , you seriously arent planing to disparage Netaji or laud Britishers!!

RSS did only one mistake.. it could not change wid the changing world!! But then too pure a stuff tends to break at minimum impact!! Adultering is done to improve the strength!! They didnt adulterate their ideology!

And the new leaders got a little self centered.. though they are still thousand times better than the political leaders busy stuffing their pockets!! They are still working out in the hot sun with lower ranks of the party hand in hand... they are still aware of the poverty and unemployment creeping under the shining India.. and they are fully aware of the demoralising standards of Indian youth..
Poor fellows find it tough to realise that the strong force of the West would not let their land stay naive and pure.. it will be corporatised like rest of the world! They tried their best just to be blamed by us for being so high headed!

I agree last 10 years have changed it all... the new youth leaders with political aspirations come up wid 'hatred spreading' formulae and the allies VHP , ... Bajrang dal are doing no good either! But then the only reason of recent aggresive stance of RSS is the rise of muslim terrorism..! It is a vicious circle to be frank.. a chain rather..

US wants control over USSR .. it trains Taliban.. Taliban is helped by Pakis too.. Pakis want kashmir... So all muslim terrorist outfits get together to disturb Indian peace in the valley!!

// Sir many members of RSS are survivors of Bbay blasts.. Hindu pundit massacres of the valley etc... and obviosuly they have every reason to hate muslims!! It is very much justified Sir.. one has to lose someone real close to realise that...!!

**{Same goes with christaianity.. religious feelings are not sown .. they are always there in the back of the mind .. they can only be inflammed.. which recent political leaders did so well for their own purpose..!!}

So basically RSS starts hunting for muslims.. starts changing its strategy from 'self devlopment centered' TO 'Anti pak centerd' ... but there WAS a provoking!! Certainly leaders at the top wid political aspirations did no good... Advani for example!

Now US wanted middle east... taliban screews US.. US backfires engulfing Iraq too.. Paki militants come under US scrutiny.. And like some supremos US comes up wid a list of terrorist outfits.. which includes hindu groups too.. !! But who caused all this.. after 80s !! The outsiders.. !

Sir to be frank RSS is a big organisation with a very dedicated and sincere workforce.. which is finding it tough to create a place for its old ideology and principles.. And is being misled by politicians for their own gud! But the intention of RSS and the original ideology should never be doubted and questioned!!

When we Jats are ready to vote for Mr Ola or Mr Ahlawat or Mrs Sumitra on the basis of caste ... how can we so hypocritically criticise RSSs stand on supporting and praising hinduism .. when not even a small fraction of hindu society is even a bit concerned about the declining culture and values of India!

If led by proper people the same work force of RSS can do wonders.. I happened to meet some swayam sevaks at pune during intern.. What a pure mind and willingness to work for the society !! They were involved in every small thing that could help their city in being a better place to live in!!

Anyways... I may be wrong.. I have seen much less of the world.. But I would never criticise my grandfather for being highheaded or extreme while dealing with me.. I would rather accomodate him in the changing scheme of events around us! And let him keep me back to my roots .. to my origin and my culture!!

Naresh,

Do not misunderstand my comments that I am picking only at RSS. I vehementally oppose all such top down, authorotative, and totalarian organizations ranging from extreme left to extreme right on the political spectrum. Just because they indulge in occassional humanitarian activities, is not sufficient to make them good organizations. Obviously, my Hindu friends on this site take offence when I relate RSS to LeT or JeM, but I am always outspoken on this issue, and I have Muslim friends in Canada who take offence on equating LeT with RSS that was the principal force in butchering over 2,000 Muslims in Gujerat. But, I am used to such criticism.

Coming back to the main point, RSS and similar organizations (who say 'my God is better than your God') are extremely orthodox in nature. But, as George Orwell wrote "Orthodoxy is unconsciousness, orthodoxy is not thinking - not needing to think." There is no room for dissent in these organizations. Let us face it, intelligence is what separates us from other animals. To give up your to think is to deny yourself your humanity.

My opposition to these groups start from the schools they run because they ruin the future of untold number of innocent children. It does not matter whether you look at the Madarasas or the RSS schools, (or even few Christian schools I have seen in Canada), what they provide can not be classified as education in true sense. They destroy the basic human capacity of independent thinking.

Jeremy Bentham (1748-1832) argued for the separation of Church and State, individual and economic freedom, freedom of expression, equal rights of women, animal rights, and the end of slavery. Though his name is not a household word, most of the progress of the Western world can be attributed to his ideas advanced and refined by his followers. He was the first one to support education of ordinary, poor people (who were not allowed to enter Cambridge and Oxford in those days), and started the University College of London (where his stuffed body is still kept and brought to Faculty meetings) because he believed that it will produce enlightened and public spirited statesmen who will overcome conservative stupidity. It proved right to a great extent for the Western world.

But, Dr. Hegdewar (the founder of RSS), and his mentor, B.S. Moonje decided to make Italian Fascists and German Nazis as their role models. Moonje travelled to Italy to meet Mussolini and fashioned the training RSS Sakhas on the Fascist methods. Golwalker, the second head of RSS celebrated Nazi Germany, and the "purging" of an entire people was entirely justifiable to him as it was an expression of "national pride at its highest.."

From an objective view, RSS meets the criteria of a terrorist organization (see http://www.terrorism.com ), and I am sure sooner or later it will be declared one. Remember, President Reagan had praised Bin Laden and the Jihadis as freedom fighters not long ago. Look at the price the world has paid for the temporary benefits received from the terrorists.

You mention that RSS people fought the local 'dadas'. Remember,that RSS people are the 'dadas'. How do you think Pramod Mahajan coming from a poor background, accumulated assets estimated to be worth Rs. 10,000 Crores? When I say I knew these people mainly as goondas 55 years ago, nothing has changed as these people are now bigger goondas who deal with thousands of Crores of assets.

vinodks

June 14th, 2006, 11:19 PM

vinodks

June 14th, 2006, 11:23 PM

Naresh, thats very balanced account... Thanks.

-vinod

Sir,

Acknowledging the fact that it is only in past one decade or so that India has actually started rolling... The average Indian has become smart and independent enough to make hiw own decisions for livelihood. Let us go back to the 80s !! And let us try to establish the role of this organisation RSS back then... reminding u of the fact that there were no Let and Al Qaidas back then to battle...

......................
.....................

If led by proper people the same work force of RSS can do wonders.. I happened to meet some swayam sevaks at pune during intern.. What a pure mind and willingness to work for the society !! They were involved in every small thing that could help their city in being a better place to live in!!

Anyways... I may be wrong.. I have seen much less of the world.. But I would never criticise my grandfather for being highheaded or extreme while dealing with me.. I would rather accomodate him in the changing scheme of events around us! And let him keep me back to my roots .. to my origin and my culture!!

birbal

June 15th, 2006, 04:33 AM

Dear Birbalji, I am not in position to discuss all the points you raised. You are knowledgeable person and have helped lots of students in jatland.

I am a alumni of a RSS school, Gita Sen Sec School KKR, and after reading your post it looks like my future is ruined. Could you please suggest what should I do?
************************************************** *******
************************************************** ******

-vinod

Vinod,

I am very disappointed that you are not trying to understand my arguments. First,let me start by taking you in a completely different direction. In my class in IIT, I had many classmates from Catholic Church run schools in India. These were all fine gentlemen and most are still in touch with me through our class group.

Now, answer me whether you agree with me that despite producing several outstanding students, these Christian Schools have done immense harm to India. The problems in Nagaland, Mizoram and some other parts of India are created by these missionaries and schools are part of their system.

The only difference between your position and mine is that I oppose all religion based schools whether they are Christian, Muslim or Hindu. We need good quality public education.

Also, I went to IIT and completed a Ph.D. without having an elementary school education. Our class group produced a 40th aniversary yearbook and they were stunned to know that I made it to IIT without formal elementary school education. Just because both of us made it to IIT from our schools that does not mean our paths were great and others should follow it. Exceptions do not make the rule, just as someone like George W. Bush with degrees from Harvard and Yale is not a bad reflection on either of the great schools.

Further, let me provide some more evidence on organizations like RSS, LeT, JeM, and criminal organizations like drug cartels. In all these groups, the top people lead a luxurious life full of debauchery, but over 99% of members are true belivers and simple, honest people. Have you seen any Mulla become a suicide bomber? If you get some free time, read "freakonomics" by Prof. Steve Levit of University of Chicago and look at the chapter dealing with drug cartel. The situation is no different in RSS. There are people like Pramod Mahajan who went through the system and took full advantage of it in amassing immense wealth and power, and there are people like Vajpayee, who openly say " Shadi nahin ki, par Brahmchari nahin hun".

vinodks

June 15th, 2006, 08:39 AM

Birbalji, sorry if my post showed insincerity to participate in debate. I agree that orthodoxy in religions should be separated from objective and independent attitude necessary for seeking true knowledge. All I wanted to say my school didn't teach any religious orthodoxy but spirit of respecting other's views and "respecting one's own views too". Your efforts for maintaining secular environment are appreciated.

-vinod

naresh.mehta

June 15th, 2006, 08:56 AM

So ... it boils down to cracking JEE... !! Sir, do u really believe that getting into IIT and then reaching higher position in society is at all a criterion to decide the character and standards of a human being!!

Great to learn that you and Mr Vinod managed to reach IIT portals despite of RSS education !! as if it is that sub standard..! Sir, Please come on!!

We cant judge an organisation just by its leaders.. it is the workforce that counts! And believe me the workforce of RSS is awesome.

As far as missionaries are concerned.. well you might be against them and the way they teach .... I too am against 'christianity claim' of only one God and only one holy book of bible.. I despise the way they converted people.. but does that negate watevr gud they did to ppl and society!
Christians may not come over for disaster mgmt. like RSS people but they are wonderful people with really big heart.. They are just a bit too obsessed about the gr8ness of Jesus! But then is that wrong??

I had joined a bible study group here at IIT madras.. and luved reading both the testaments in my 2nd n 3rd yr of btech.. Sir... unfortunately (inpite of all wonderful things of bible!) the book has urged and inspired the followers to spread the name of jesus with the faith that he is the one and only relief.. the son of God.. Jesus!! And the teachers at the missionary and cathlic schools taught the very same! This is in their religion!!

And come on Sir ... You cant be blaming all the St Xaviers and St Anslems... or Stephens... Loyola colleges for having such high standards of excellence of education even if they teach one verse of bible a day!

My Mizo friend.. I talked with him after reading your statement.. wanted to get first hand information.. He studied in a church run school.. and is basically a hindu.. He is one of the best debators of IIT madras.. went to St Stephens Delhi for BSc Maths.. but then after one yr joined iit for mech engg.. He is more than happy to be a proud alumnus of his school!

Anyways... Sir I just got to know that you have helped many Jats in jobs and career ... I seriously respect and appreciate your gesture..!
But I am afraid as far as this RSS issue is concerned.. my views tend to differ!

I dont get the point... why you had to come with such a strong criticism against RSS...
Please pardon me if I were rude at any point in the post!

@ Vinod
Thanks accepted :D ... You doing MS or some job?

bharatrattan

June 25th, 2006, 12:02 PM

Dear Vinod,
Do you not think religion itself is an orthodox concept? How successful have we been in separating these two tenets is revealed if you see its operation in a country like US. The Church in Southern states has recently been supported by political parties to promulgate laws that would make abortion illegal (even if the pregnancy is unwanted.). Theoretically we assume a developed country to have checks that should prohibit such mischief, but it humiliatingly fails to achieve this in year 2006.

One of the most important issue religion has come across is fundamentalism. This is the end point at which a doctrine insulates itself from rational discussion. Religion stops growing at that point and stagnates, the way it has in Islamic counties. The strength of faith which primarily is meant to enlighten individuals, is ironically employed to blind masses. There has been ample evidence about the way RSS miscreants have tried to punish individual expression in our country, which challenges or pinpoints the fallibility of traditional Indian value system. The alarming thing is that religion is very important for Indians, which has been misused for committing government sponsored crimes against Muslims in Gujarat and Mumbai. The trading communities in Rajasthan and Gujarat are dead against Muslims, which seem to have economic reasoning than any other thing. In Mumbai, Muslims have a good reputation as honest traders. Because of business rivalry the Hindu businessman, like Jains sponsor activities against Muslims. We still have memories of Babri Masjid discourses channeled by Jain TV. In US these days, they operate Hindu and Sanskrit Unions, which shows the real secular face of India.

Our identity is embedded in religion and religion is embedded in our identity. Most average Indians have red threaded rituals starting early in life, which deters them from questioning the overall functioning of organizations like RSS. It is good that now we have a threatening opposition to Congress, which has made politics more competitive than it earlier was. Nevertheless we must be wary of its unholy appetite to raise useless issue. These issues are meant to remain in news. It is not unusual that Jatlanders support RSS, some do not show understanding, and others have already invested on Khaki Chaddis that they would die to save its tearing seams. Not only Jatlanders, but the state of Gujarat re-elected Modi Government after they were pleased by Godhara massacre.

Salman Rushdie recently expressed his grief over the rise of Hindu fundamentalism in India. He said Hinduism to be the only scholarly religion which encourages rational approach in its unadulterated form. It is different from Christianity and Islam, which basically are dogmatic.The recent acquisition of its functioning by RSS is one crucial step in making it anti-Muslim but Islamic in Nature.
For people who might be interested in watching his interview with Deepa Mehta over the release of Water, below is the hyperlink on Google video.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6349762904637312687&q=salman+rushdie

Jats should strictly stay away from such fanatic doctrines which could recruit their raw enthusiasm to accomplish ulterior political goals in the name of religion.

(I wish well read people had shown guts to challenge the ground beneath their feet, instead of chutzpah against seniors putting effort to make Jats aware of modern ideas.)
Regards,
Bharat

manuvesh

June 26th, 2006, 10:15 AM

these guys (RSS)have not done anything for the country.all the times they used to talk abt Dr.hedgevar,i can not recall any significant contribution of them in anyways.their only one point agenda is to promote the business community and upper caste(they thinks that only brahmins and banya makes upper cast)anyway sir good observation . f
I have known RSS as the strongest anti-Jat force in Rajasthan for the past 55 years. But, more than being anti-Jat, I have found these people to be cowardly, liars, and cheats. Although they talk of nationalism, I have not known any of them to join armed forces to sacrifice their life for the country,
where in Jhunjhunu district, almost every Jat family has members who sacrificed their life for the country.

Essentially, these people are generally petty goonda types who superficially do some good deeds as described by some members for public relations purposes. In recent years, the organization has been used for massive fund raising purposes by senior goondas like Pramod Mahajan.

On the specific story of the one of the brightest Jat young man, Sanwat Singh, who was stabbed to death by one of the closest associate of Vajpayee, Mr. Virendra Saklecha (later Chief Minister of Madhya Pradesh) and several RSS goondas on January 31, 1948, is a matter of court record. A case was lodged in Jhunjhunu against these people, but in those days there was not much justice for Jats. For further refernce to this, read "Shekhawati mein Swatantrata Aandolan Ka Itihas," by Mohan Singh.

In a strange twist of politics, when the Jan Sangh people realized that they have to broaden their party beyond RSS, the BJP was formed where some Jats also joined it. One of the current BJP MP from Churu district in Rajasthan is a Jat, Mr. Ram Singh, and he was a class mate of my wife in Ramgargh, Shekhawati, and my wife always describes him as a brave fighter against RSS goondas in Ramgarh. Those people who support RSS should talk to this BJP Member of Parliament.

Further to this political twist, although some Jats are in BJP, RSS people do not vote for Jat BJP candidates. In an attempt to defeat Mr. Sisram Ola, the current Jhunjhunu MP, and cabinet minister, the BJP put a Jat candidate, Mrs. Santosh Ahlawat against him. But, all the RSS people voted against the Jat BJP candidate and Mr. Ola was reelected. In Jhunjhunu, assembly seat, the BJP put up a Jat, Mrs. Sumitra Singh (current speaker of Rajasthan), and the RSS cadre made demonstrations against her but she won on Muslim and Jat votes.

Just remember that even in the time of the most anti-Hindu and cruelest of Muslim, Aurangzeb, some Hindus occupied high positions. Also, after the recent earthquake in Kashmir, the terrorist groups were most active in humanitarian activities. Does that make them decent people?

I am not interested in changing opinions of any narrow minded, selfish people, who look at their own interests in helping a common enemy of a community, but at least know your facts.

raj2rif

June 26th, 2006, 05:34 PM

[quote=birbal]Vinod,

I am very disappointed that you are not trying to understand my arguments. First,let me start by taking you in a completely different direction. In my class in IIT, I had many classmates from Catholic Church run schools in India. These were all fine gentlemen and most are still in touch with me through our class group.

Dear Members,
An interesting discussion. I have myself studied for few years in one of the Sanatan Dharm School. I found that school like any other school. I remember once some one told me about Shakah. I did go there once. The next day the guy who took me to Shakha tried to force me to attend it every day by telling me that if I went once, I have to come every day. I just told him to buzz off else I would break his legs. He never returned to me and that is probably I never went to attend Shaka

That apart. I have seen a good high school coming up in front of me "Pt. Deen Dayal Upadhyaya School" at Kanpur. I must say, most student of this school did very well in the board exam. I was told that was run by RSS.

The point I am trying to raise is, what happened in 1948, when Virendra Saklecha killed a Jat young person, can not be made in to a rule that entire RSS cadre is bad. People are talking about BJP being bad. BJP came into being only after break up of "Janata Party in 1979. The same BJP was aplauded when it supported the Janta Party and even merged with it. We are talking about the wealth Mr. Mahajan has amassed I guess, there are many with similar bank balance including our own Om Prakash Chautala. I don't think Chautala ever went to RSS or inherited entire property from his parents or earned by legitimate means.

The fact of matter is that in all political parties we have these so called "Dadas" who become leaders and the second crop called the cadre. Cadres and Dadas of any party are similar. Exceptions are every where and Congress or BJP are no different. What has bothered me on this discussion is that we are branding a particular organization about which either we may not be knowing all the details, as bad or terrorist organization. While leaving out others who may be doing the similar things but are not commenting upon them either we don't know about them or have affiliation with them. How about youth wing of all other political parties. Most of these organizations do have these so called "Dadas" and do have criminal records. Each one of them have some one who might have stabbed some one to death (may be shot dead as we have advanced from the age of knife to revolver).

Why the Dada's being very few in numbers in any organization become the leader? Do they have better leadership skills for getting the support of others? If voting is confidential, then I don't think one can force some one to vote for him/her. And if some one gets forced for whatever the reason may be, then he / she should not complain that he/she is being ruled/ led by these Dadas'.

Regarding Education provided by these organizations. Probably I am not the one to comment upon RSS as I attended only one meeting. I think it is more of brain washing people then education. But that is being done every where. You go to any congress meeting, they had been talking about Indira Ji, Rajeev Ji and now Sonia Ji. If RSS people talk about Hegdewar then what is wrong?
I personally feel that we must not divide the community on the basis of race, religion, or a political organization, be it RSS, Congress or one of us.

Truely speaking, I did not get the point being put forward on this therad. All that I have understood is that RSS is a Terrorist Organization like LeT, and is anti Jat and thus we all should hate it. It further went to prove that since BJP cadre comes from RSS we must hate that too. I personally feel that hatered is not good for any thing. People are wise enough to make their choices. All organizations have good and bad sides, let us be fair and discuss both sides on any organization or person.

ratananmol

June 27th, 2006, 02:50 AM

I disagree; the point is that BJP and the right wing is not what they claim..ie their advertisement of being the forerunner of Hindu culture, uprightness and patriotism is sheer farce...if we go into the genesis of regional parties or leaders like lalu they are what they claim....they represent their regions and regional interests which is of course not true for chautala and sons.
The display of senstitivity against BJP and affiliates is based on the fact they can make Jinnah secular to get votes and are doing the same to jats...they neither stand for hindus nor jats..their true interest is power...let's be clear on this...
If a harit pradesh comes into being it would be the most prosperous state in India in per capita terms..do we care any more abt this except when Ajit Singh sings this song near elections; and because the focus of our polity has been hijacked by the right wing we no longer care about the economics of regional growth and real issues...we are going into a sad state of fanaticism and intolerance...

[quote=birbal]Vinod,

I am very disappointed that you are not trying to understand my arguments. First,let me start by taking you in a completely different direction. In my class in IIT, I had many classmates from Catholic Church run schools in India. These were all fine gentlemen and most are still in touch with me through our class group.

Dear Members,
An interesting discussion. I have myself studied for few years in one of the Sanatan Dharm School. I found that school like any other school. I remember once some one told me about Shakah. I did go there once. The next day the guy who took me to Shakha tried to force me to attend it every day by telling me that if I went once, I have to come every day. I just told him to buzz off else I would break his legs. He never returned to me and that is probably I never went to attend Shaka

That apart. I have seen a good high school coming up in front of me "Pt. Deen Dayal Upadhyaya School" at Kanpur. I must say, most student of this school did very well in the board exam. I was told that was run by RSS.

The point I am trying to raise is, what happened in 1948, when Virendra Saklecha killed a Jat young person, can not be made in to a rule that entire RSS cadre is bad. People are talking about BJP being bad. BJP came into being only after break up of "Janata Party in 1979. The same BJP was aplauded when it supported the Janta Party and even merged with it. We are talking about the wealth Mr. Mahajan has amassed I guess, there are many with similar bank balance including our own Om Prakash Chautala. I don't think Chautala ever went to RSS or inherited entire property from his parents or earned by legitimate means.

The fact of matter is that in all political parties we have these so called "Dadas" who become leaders and the second crop called the cadre. Cadres and Dadas of any party are similar. Exceptions are every where and Congress or BJP are no different. What has bothered me on this discussion is that we are branding a particular organization about which either we may not be knowing all the details, as bad or terrorist organization. While leaving out others who may be doing the similar things but are not commenting upon them either we don't know about them or have affiliation with them. How about youth wing of all other political parties. Most of these organizations do have these so called "Dadas" and do have criminal records. Each one of them have some one who might have stabbed some one to death (may be shot dead as we have advanced from the age of knife to revolver).

Why the Dada's being very few in numbers in any organization become the leader? Do they have better leadership skills for getting the support of others? If voting is confidential, then I don't think one can force some one to vote for him/her. And if some one gets forced for whatever the reason may be, then he / she should not complain that he/she is being ruled/ led by these Dadas'.

Regarding Education provided by these organizations. Probably I am not the one to comment upon RSS as I attended only one meeting. I think it is more of brain washing people then education. But that is being done every where. You go to any congress meeting, they had been talking about Indira Ji, Rajeev Ji and now Sonia Ji. If RSS people talk about Hegdewar then what is wrong?
I personally feel that we must not divide the community on the basis of race, religion, or a political organization, be it RSS, Congress or one of us.

Truely speaking, I did not get the point being put forward on this therad. All that I have understood is that RSS is a Terrorist Organization like LeT, and is anti Jat and thus we all should hate it. It further went to prove that since BJP cadre comes from RSS we must hate that too. I personally feel that hatered is not good for any thing. People are wise enough to make their choices. All organizations have good and bad sides, let us be fair and discuss both sides on any organization or person.

raj2rif

June 27th, 2006, 06:17 PM

[quote=ratananmol]I disagree; the point is that BJP and the right wing is not what they claim..ie their advertisement of being the forerunner of Hindu culture, uprightness and patriotism is sheer farce...if we go into the genesis of regional parties or leaders like lalu they are what they claim....they represent their regions and regional interests which is of course not true for chautala and sons.
The display of senstitivity against BJP and affiliates is based on the fact they can make Jinnah secular to get votes and are doing the same to jats...they neither stand for hindus nor jats..their true interest is power...let's be clear on this...
If a harit pradesh comes into being it would be the most prosperous state in India in per capita terms..do we care any more abt this except when Ajit Singh sings this song near elections; and because the focus of our polity has been hijacked by the right wing we no longer care about the economics of regional growth and real issues...we are going into a sad state of fanaticism and intolerance...

Dear Anmol,

And which is the party that is what it claims to be. Including the regional parties. It is all power game. The only thing is that the "Grass just looks greener on the otherside of the hill". Every single party National or regional has one single agenda and that is to either remain in power or get to the power. For achieving this, whether you make Jinna secular or Subhash Bose a communist really does not matter.

ratananmol

June 28th, 2006, 03:12 PM

Dear Tewathia ji:
I will meet you at the picnic and we can continue the discussion but let me state i am a very big Lalu fan;because of both right and wrong reasons: he is funny and extremely talented. Some trivial achievements: he turned around the fortunes of the Indian railways..something he claimed could be done and hence prevented our prime minster from privatisation..something that would have been inevitable (not that anything is wrong with privatisation per se).More than that he is secular and undobtedly has turned the fortunes of Yadavs in his home state over his 15 year rle..something we will keep craving from the likes of Ajit Singh. No new irrigation projects have been undertaken in western UP since independence and the entire revenue is diverted from the west to rest of UP..isn't it a serious problem..i will leave it there...
I disagree; the point is that BJP and the right wing is not what they claim..ie their advertisement of being the forerunner of Hindu culture, uprightness and patriotism is sheer farce...if we go into the genesis of regional parties or leaders like lalu they are what they claim....they represent their regions and regional interests which is of course not true for chautala and sons.
The display of senstitivity against BJP and affiliates is based on the fact they can make Jinnah secular to get votes and are doing the same to jats...they neither stand for hindus nor jats..their true interest is power...let's be clear on this...
If a harit pradesh comes into being it would be the most prosperous state in India in per capita terms..do we care any more abt this except when Ajit Singh sings this song near elections; and because the focus of our polity has been hijacked by the right wing we no longer care about the economics of regional growth and real issues...we are going into a sad state of fanaticism and intolerance...

Dear Anmol,

And which is the party that is what it claims to be. Including the regional parties. It is all power game. The only thing is that the "Grass just looks greener on the otherside of the hill". Every single party National or regional has one single agenda and that is to either remain in power or get to the power. For achieving this, whether you make Jinna secular or Subhash Bose a communist really does not matter.

positivelook

June 29th, 2006, 05:11 PM

Dear Birbal jee

It seems that ur saying that RSS and BJP are totally against Jats than how come we have so many Jat leaders in BJP i rekon more than congress. I dont know abt the past but in present i have never seen any such things from RSS which shows that they are against Jats. Even in Haryana they have SHAKHAs running in almost all districts and even jats are attending these. I dont have anything related to that murder but one point which i can raise here is that KYa kabhee kisi congressi ne yah kisi aur party ke member ne kabhee kisi Jat ka Murder nahin kiya. I think i have pointed towards my opinion.

Rk sir
How can u say that BJP is totally against jats. Even vasundhra raje is CM of Rajasthan she comes from BJP and married to a jat family. Sahib singh verma, Vikram Verma , Kishan singh sangwan alll comes from Jat community who are well known leaders in Jat.

Abhimanyu Phougat

positivelook

June 29th, 2006, 05:13 PM

I think Naresh Mehta have given a very balanced answer on this thread. Even Col. Tevathia have summarized few things very well. So i dont have much to write down here after the replies of these people.

Abhimanyu Phougat

atul.jhajhria

June 30th, 2006, 05:59 PM

It seems that ur saying that RSS and BJP are totally against Jats than how come we have so many Jat leaders in BJP i rekon more than congress.

Its a legacy of past!

RSS's Black Past!

Ask any Jat from Rajasthan!

I dont know abt the past but in present i have never seen any such things from RSS which shows that they are against Jats. Even in Haryana they have SHAKHAs running in almost all districts and even jats are attending these.

As i said above, it was a thing of Past!

I dont have anything related to that murder but one point which i can raise here is that KYa kabhee kisi congressi ne yah kisi aur party ke member ne kabhee kisi Jat ka Murder nahin kiya. I think i have pointed towards my opinion.

It was not just about occasional murder!

It was their policy of cornering Jats in jobs, business, and socially too!!

Which failed and they started saying Jat are Hindues!!

Ask Jats of Rajasthan about this!!

Earlier they never included us in Hinduism even though we were Hindues!!

hoodavishal

June 30th, 2006, 06:35 PM

FULL FORM OF RSS IS ......Security Services for Riches
BJP IS........Boycott Jat Party or
brahmin jagao party or
baniya jagao patty.:mad:

kharub

June 30th, 2006, 07:00 PM

rkumar

June 30th, 2006, 08:19 PM

I support the BJP for the underlining reaosns:

1. Because they opposed Soina Gandhi holding high office in India .. which she does anyways ...... becasue the likes of Bhupender Singh Hooda .. lick her bottoms .... Being a proud Jat and an Indian it disgusts me
(though i am proud to see a Jat CM)

2. The Congresse's policy of minority appeasement .... minorities need to treated with respect and have full freedom .. but they should not be the policy dictators... we are being held hostages by monorities in our country ....

3. Raising the issue of Bangladeshi Immigrants in the country ... changing the demographics of North East India .. especially Bengal and Assam ...

Because I am anti-congress ,,,, as they are the Puppets of Nehru - Gandhi Family .... Gandhi was toothless and Nehru was an opportunist and selfish (just to be brief) and the same traits have filtered through generations ......

Don't you think BJP leaders are any less opportunists? Have you ever seen any other leader in Indian history changing stands like what Advani has done? Does BJP of today have any ideology which makes it a nationaist force? Gandhi Nehru might have been toothless, but what about BJP leaders ? Have they ever shown any tooth ? Jaswant Singh escorted terrorists all the way to Kandhar..Has any other party done same thing in Indian history? Can BJP name one leader who contributed even single cent worth contribution in freedom strugle? Atal Bihari Vajpayee went to Pakistan holding his tail between his legs where as Man Mohan Singh rejected all such invitations till date.. BJP is a party without any ideology and can share bed with anyone starting from Mayawati to Mulayam Singh... Badal to Chautala.. anyone under the sun if they are likely to form government...

Hooda family has been in congress for four four generations without even a single incident of party change by any family member. This is called ideology. 99% other political leaders in country have been through so many political parties like a cat carrying her kittens to all sorts of places.

RK^2

raj2rif

June 30th, 2006, 11:11 PM

Don't you think BJP leaders are any less opportunists? Have you ever seen any other leader in Indian history changing stands like what Advani has done? Does BJP of today have any ideology which makes it a nationaist force? Gandhi Nehru might have been toothless, but what about BJP leaders ? Have they ever shown any tooth ? Jaswant Singh escorted terrorists all the way to Kandhar..Has any other party done same thing in Indian history? Can BJP name one leader who contributed even single cent worth contribution in freedom strugle? Atal Bihari Vajpayee went to Pakistan holding his tail between his legs where as Man Mohan Singh rejected all such invitations till date.. BJP is a party without any ideology and can share bed with anyone starting from Mayawati to Mulayam Singh... Badal to Chautala.. anyone under the sun if they are likely to form government...

Hooda family has been in congress for four four generations without even a single incident of party change by any family member. This is called ideology. 99% other political leaders in country have been through so many political parties like a cat carrying her kittens to all sorts of places.

RK^2

All are same. While I am neither the supporter of BJP nor that of Congress, I am compelled to put my two cents on this topic.

1. As far as sharing the bed with other political parties are concerned. Congress has done it with both, Mayawati as well as Mulayam Singh. They are now doing it with Laloo Yadav's RJD as well. So, let us not give the impression that it is only the BJP that has done it.

2. We had been criticizing on this very forum the "dynastic" rule. Having generations in the same political party does not mean that the future generations can't go wrong or say right (if the prior generations did go wrong) Nehru family has now fifth generation in the politics. Does that mean whatever the future generations of this family do will be right. Or say some one who is the first generation politician will always do some thing wrong.
Let us concentrate on issues rather than individuals.
If Hooda, government has done some thing exceptional, let us bring it out and let the public know about their achievement. If they have done some thing wrong let us bring that out as well. Our personal likings and dislikings towards the political parties or the political figures do not contribute to the development of the community or the nation.
If we really want to serve the community and the nation, then let us get above the personal likings, dislikings and relationships while addressing the important issues.

rkumar

July 1st, 2006, 02:11 AM

All are same. While I am neither the supporter of BJP nor that of Congress, I am compelled to put my two cents on this topic.

1. As far as sharing the bed with other political parties are concerned. Congress has done it with both, Mayawati as well as Mulayam Singh. They are now doing it with Laloo Yadav's RJD as well. So, let us not give the impression that it is only the BJP that has done it.

2. We had been criticizing on this very forum the "dynastic" rule. Having generations in the same political party does not mean that the future generations can't go wrong or say right (if the prior generations did go wrong) Nehru family has now fifth generation in the politics. Does that mean whatever the future generations of this family do will be right. Or say some one who is the first generation politician will always do some thing wrong.
Let us concentrate on issues rather than individuals.
If Hooda, government has done some thing exceptional, let us bring it out and let the public know about their achievement. If they have done some thing wrong let us bring that out as well. Our personal likings and dislikings towards the political parties or the political figures do not contribute to the development of the community or the nation.
If we really want to serve the community and the nation, then let us get above the personal likings, dislikings and relationships while addressing the important issues.

They might be all same but still there are differences Tavathia Sahab. I am certainly not a neutral person. I have very strong views based upon my convictions. I am willing to change my views if someone comes with really good arguments and logics and not otherwise.

RK^2

raj2rif

July 1st, 2006, 06:20 AM

ratananmol

July 1st, 2006, 02:58 PM

Dear Col. Saheb:
The link i have posted is written by Steven Levitt a chicago economist identified by Time magazine as one of the top 100 people who influence our lives (some of his theories have been mentioned elsewhere on this forum by Prof. Birbal Singh); i dont think he is necessarily a BJP basher or has any keen interest in indian politics. The story chosen by him is so outrageous that it did not escape his attention nor mine...let us get our facts there are people who use religion, gender and all other narrow definitions to create rift among human beings which does not make others dearer to me (maybe in a relative sense)...dont know:rolleyes:
Truly yours...

positivelook

July 1st, 2006, 03:19 PM

Very well said Tevathia Sir. Ur answer is very balanced.

Abhimanyu Phougat

spdeshwal

July 3rd, 2006, 03:16 AM

Dear members,

Obviously this thread was initiated by Dr. Birbal ji in Respose to my thread
" The Humane side of RSS, the Only side i know". The reason best known to him , he did not post his views under that thread but chose to start a fresh thread. Thinking that he didn't feel fit to interact with me on the pretext that i am a RSS man which he hates the most, i chose to stay away from this thread. But same time i wanted to reply to some unwanted remarks by him and later on posted my version on the different thread which obviosly edited by the Administrator.

Anyways my motivation to start that thread came from my interactions with that organisation on a number of occasions. Otherwise, neither i am a fanatic Hindu nor a BJP worker. In fact only time i voted for a BJP condidate was for Swami Indervesh. I am a aryasamaji to the core of my heart who have never been to a hindu temple in 46 years of my life. My village Ladhaut with 3000 families, one of the oldest village in the area, is believed to be 'khera' of jats of Deshwal/Deswal Gotra, has no temple till date of any Hindu deity. I was greatly inspired by Swami Omanand ji in my younger days. I had the privilege of spending some memorable moments whenever he visited us in our village home. So my faith in Aryasamaj and its beliefs is complete. Therefore, I never subscribe to temple or any other religious agenda of BJP or its alies.

I am an emotional person and my first interaction with RSS activist happened to be at the time, when i was a young sailor of 18 years of age.I have witnessed RSS Volunteres doing great service to the humanity. I never seriously thought RSS as a training ground for BJP but a largest social organisation of the world. Majority of the members of that organisation may be devout Hindus and i find nothing wrong with that. I am still not convinced that RSS men were involved in atrocities as stated by Dr. Birbal ji and others though without any proof or substance.

I am amazed to read claims by some the members about treatment of RSS with jats. I believe, majority of our jats members supporting that view including Dr. Birbal ji come from regions of Rajasthan where jats are in majority. "Jis tarah ki bilbihat hai , meri samajh se pare hae". At list i can't imagine this kind of treatment in haryana by any group of people including in the areas where jats are in minority.

Rajenderji, I do not support your views here but under the old thread "Jats and BJP". I liked your views under that thread and of Sh. RK Sehrawat ji's as
well. http://www.jatland/forums/showthreads.php?t=5150 Col.Tewathia ji i fully agree with you and Bhai Abhimanyu as well.
Every Organisation has its bad apples and RSS and BJP are no Exception.

Rajenderji, now that you going back to India and i believe most of the times you should be in and around Samli. I hope , you should be spending your energies for the cause of rural maases through your hospital and other projects. In my opinion you would need the support of people of all the backround including people from different political beliefs.
Also i know, the other subject close to your heart is "Harit Pradesh". So, it is obvious that you would need like minded people, may be believing in different political ideologies.My Heartfelt and best wishes to you and others symphathiser to this cause!!

Sateypal

rkumar

July 3rd, 2006, 11:59 AM

......

Rajenderji, I do not support your views here but under the old thread "Jats and BJP". I liked your views under that thread and of Sh. RK Sehrawat ji's as
well. http://www.jatland/forums/showthreads.php?t=5150 Col.Tewathia ji i fully agree with you and Bhai Abhimanyu as well.
Every Organisation has its bad apples and RSS and BJP are no Exception.

Rajenderji, now that you going back to India and i believe most of the times you should be in and around Samli. I hope , you should be spending your energies for the cause of rural maases through your hospital and other projects. In my opinion you would need the support of people of all the backround including people from different political beliefs.
Also i know, the other subject close to your heart is "Harit Pradesh". So, it is obvious that you would need like minded people, may be believing in different political ideologies.My Heartfelt and best wishes to you and others symphathiser to this cause!!

Sateypal

Deshwal Sahab,

All top BJP leaders like Advani ji are products of RSS and therefore reflect RSS thinking to a great extent. Personally I have no exposure to RSS as they are not so active in my area. For me Advani and his alikes are the true face of RSS. May be I am politically motivated and therefore take political face of an organisation as its representation. I will put few counter questions on RSS;

1. How come RSS supports only BJP and no other political party?
2. If RSS supports only BJP then why BJP should not be taken as political mask of RSS and vice verse?
3. If BJP is the political mask of RSS, why shouldn't we form our image through the people like Advani who can swing 180 degree on issues?

Rightly or wrongly my image of RSS, BJP is of Banya Brahaman party who support each other. Even Vishva Hindu Prisad and Bajrang Dals are nothing but extensions of the same gangs. No wonder one finds Baniyas like Sanghal becoming thekedars of Hindu religion.

Might be that you are influenced more by their social activities and I by their political. That might be the reason of our different perceptions. I accept that. Also I fully agree that every organisation has good and bad apples. However, there is no other organisation in India where two wings are so closely knit like RSS and BJP.

Yes Deshwal Sahab I am moving back to India on 27th July 2006 and would be involved in rural health and education in shamli area. No doubt, I will need support of every class and community. However, my focus will be on farmers. I must accept that political beliefs are never permanent and they keep changing with time and circumstances. People representing the organisation matter more than anything as its they who form our beliefs. I therefore remain always open to political beliefs and will support anyone who thinks for rural masses and India. At this time I just need good wishes of friends like you and the blessings of almighty. May God show me the right path and maintain my convictions to move along that.

Regards
Rajendra

spdeshwal

July 4th, 2006, 12:57 AM

Dear Rajender ji,

I don’t disagree what you have written on RSS/ BJP relationship. My contention was about the social activities and what they have been doing on the face of natural and other disasters and also completely disagree on what some members say that RSS’s has done so much harm to jats. In Haryana or the matter of fact in western UP, Rajasthan as well, even the Bramin/ Baniya Combine are not in a position to harm jats. The truth is that BJP supporters in Haryana are Baniya/ Punjabis and not Bramins. Bramins are always congress supporters. Now that jats know their strength, this kind of accusation has no merit at all.

My observation were that of a neutral person with no political bias at all. Thinking on same lines I believe that Congress’s/ Communist’s/ Samajwadi’s “Pseudo Secularism” is doing greater harm than BJP’s”Hindutwa”. You can see the pathetic condition in UP and Bihar.

I believe , when we are politically biased our relative perception also changes. Forgive me if you feel that I am simply implicating you just to prove my point but I can see a clear shift in your thought process.
Here, I can visualize the process of ‘transition’ from a political thinker to a political activist. Now , you seem to be taking sides. I am happy about that . We need people like you to enter active politics to clean the mess. Once again my best wishes are with you.

Yours truly,

Sateypal

ramksehrawat

August 13th, 2006, 04:58 AM

Hi all,

Sorry for being late!

In Indian poltics if you keep judging right or wrong, you are bound to miss the bus and your position will be akin to what late poet Ram Sehrawat i.e your truly had described in a poem 30 years ago. A few lines I still remember :

Gulabon ka husan dekha kahan,
main kanto se darta raha.

Sagar se moti lane ki poorjor chahat thi magar,
doobne ke dar se bas ret par jalta raha.

Thee tamanna gahari karwan ke sang chaloon
kadam dagmagane ke bhay se dooriyan takta raha.

Jinke sang kadam bhare wo sab taraf chhaye huye
main ladkhadane ke dar se, na itt raha na utt rah

Intihan ki mere mahboob bhi dulhan ban kar chal diye
mein ijhare ishaq bas khood se hi karta raha.

Therefore, to political aspirants my advice will be to jump into the train, don't look at the compartment as present day politics is like a train and political parties like compartments. To voters, bargain hard with people whom you vote and kick them hard if they fail to keep promises. Good or bad are too relative terms. Everything good is bad to so called bad and vice versa. Don't live in your past. Judgements based on historical perspective may prove to be the biggest folly. "Kal ke nawab aaj rikshaw chala rahen hain, aur thare dangran ka gobbar thaniya destini-maker bane bathe hain". Today's we are in IT age, everything changes so fast.

No political or religious organisation is , be it RSS, BJP, Congress or Communists, against any particular community including jats. The so called "anti" is nothing but hype. "Angoor khatte hain". Otherwise RSS is not a bad organisation at all. The so called RSS people are all lving luxirious life and are very influential. They are destiny makers and even RSS baiters, including Congress, acknowledge their might. A large chunk of population support them and such a large number of people cannot be all fools. If we start judging everything historically, England, Portugal and France should be our enemies and Pakistan and Bangladesh our brothers. The fact is that we didn't have enough politically inclined jats and a few that we had went with Congress or regional parties of Ch. Chhotu Ram in the earlier times and Ch. Charan Singh in the later times. Let me be blunt to say that we jats have hardly been bothered by national issues. Rather we have concentrated more on local issues and this was the reason we remained aloof . Baniya's and Brahamins took advantage by joining these parties as there were no influential jats to oppose them in those organisations.

By calling a national level organisation like RSS, BJP or Congress 'anti' we are not doing any good to ourselves especially in the present times when no political outfit is left with any ideology. If you are politically inclined and want to make a career in politics, join any one of them if you get a chance to forge ahead. Devoid yourself of sentimental ideologies, be ruthless and make your way to top. If you can be a Bansilal or a Hooda in Congress go there, if you can be a Sahab Singh in BJP it is very secular, if you can be a Hegdewar and do good to your community by joining RSS, go ahead and make yourself physically active by joining their shakha. If you can afford to be a politician, never think of ideologies, at least in present times. Had there been any ideology, Rane wouldn't be Dy. CM of Maharashtra, Sanjay Nirupam would have been unemployed, he was shrewed and is a prominent Congressi now. Mangalam, a close friend of Rajiv, died a BJP Minister. If we go strictly by history, Rajmohan Gandhi should have been in Congress !! If you think BJP is anti-jats and Congress is pro-jats, I have said umpteen times and I repeat again, why Ch. Chootu Ram had to leave it. Weren't Ch. Charan Singh and Devi Lal Congressies for a long time. Ch. Bansi Lal was virtually dumped and Natwar Singh, apart from a diehard Congressi was very close to family. What happened ? Moreover, the present congress itself is not the congress of yore itself. It has become an outfit of a family who use people and dump them. Can someone guarantee that our present CM will be in Congress 5 years from now ? Politics is not a game of ideologies but opportunity. Be in the right place at the right time and you are a politician. Success is not being in the ruling party alone, even opposition leaders are successful. They too have carved their own niche give enought room to their aspirations.

If you are not a political aspirant, "bachche palo yar',. Bhagwan, charitra aur politics pe bhi kabhi consensus hua haii".

Chautala Sahib has been called names, corrupt et al. May be. But he is a shrewed politician to me. Those who don't serve oneself, don't serve anyone. "Shahid wahi hote hain jo apne parivar ka pet palne ke liye fauji bante hain". The proper channel of 'desh prem' is : self, family, relations, village, tehsil, district, state and then country. Let me know exceptions, if any.

Ram Ram

shamshermalik

August 14th, 2006, 12:25 AM

They might be all same but still there are differences Tavathia Sahab. I am certainly not a neutral person. I have very strong views based upon my convictions. I am willing to change my views if someone comes with really good arguments and logics and not otherwise.

RK^2

RK Sir..Saying that BJP has no freedom fighters or any such history then there is a reason for that. During freedom struggle the moto was national unity..and the present congress party in no way is an image of that congress party which was there before we got freedom from British rule.
Do you think that it would have been better during freedom struggle if there were many parties other than congress to divide our nation on ideaology??? Was not it going to divide our nation and help the rulers???

At that time all the leaders united under one name CONGRESS and I donot think this word is from any Indian language.

It would have been far better if this Congress party was only limited upto freedom. The Nehru and others should have shown respect to this party name and start a different party from there as upto the time of freedom congress party was representing whole of the India except Jinnah group.

It's wrong to ask for votes saying that the present Congress is an image of the Congress that got India freedom. This is to keep the illitrate and unaware Indian population into dark and emotionally blackmail them.

If this Congress is so great then why Janta Party or BJP came into power..only because there are faults in congress. Janta Party and BJP originated because there were few people who were not agreeing with congress policy. A party which almost originated 30 years after freedom..how can that party have a history in freedom struggle.

If we look getting above our personal likings then no party is too good or too bad. Both are doing vote politics which is bad and they are also doing some good things as well.

But if we go on community based or region based parties as this thread was started...then for Haryana congress has not done much...for Bigar Lalu has not done much ..for West Bengal Communists have not much....yet all this parties have been in power or rather ruled rather than served these states for more than any other party.

No personal likings but Chautala in his last term has done a lot in Haryana..yet lost the election. If you will compare the works done by Chautala in last term you will find he did lot more than the previous many govts together. These days water from Rivers in Punjab is going to Pakistan but this Congress party who is there in rule at all the three positions Center, Haryana and Punjab is keeping mum on the SYL issue. WHY???

They are not even following the Suprem Courts wishes and order with any moral obligation. In south Haryana and Rajasthan there is not much water for irrigation. Chautala did a lot for SYL issue but there was unwilingness by Congress govt at Center which was clearly evident.

In the last at present all parties are corrupt and vote hungry, do all kind of politics to get vote and there is no exception to it.