Is is fair to copy western way of living?

[rajpawariya]

I am astonished to see how policies are being copied from west and being implemented without proper thinking and rationale. malls culture is being promoted without analysing the effects on socio-economic study. Government is under pressure of big corporate houses and traders lobby. One mall consumes electricity in a day which is sufficient to meet the needs of 10 villages. Today only 40% villages have electrification. Electrified villages get on average 2 hr electricity daily. Is it fair to open markets 7 days a week without restriction on opening/ closing timing. When traders lobby succeeded in pressurising to allow opening of shops without any restriction, they felt victorious. Today they are complaining about malls. In my opinion, both things have played/ playing havoc in the life nation particularly in delhi. Due heavy consumption of electricity by malls and late night opening of shops/ restaurants, demand has increased many fold. Noise pollution has increased. Civic system is under sever strain. Social relation are under strain. Is statement of CM that I want to see markets are open whole night as are in the West justified? Are we not heading towards disasterous future by copieng West without doing socio-economic study of these decisions?

[dahiyarules]

Your argument is so uninformed and unresearched.

If you have a problem with a mall or a market then you ahve the freedom to avoid them.

As far electricity consumption is concerned, I have repeated that we need to allow private enterprises a chance to take over this problem. the government has failed at it, now let someone else try.

aarrrgh! I hate repaeating this stuff over and over again.

[sidchhikara]

Mr Rajbahadur,
Even if there was no mall - still there would be no electricity in the villages. Mall has nothing to do with electricity - in America there are 100 times more malls than in india - still everybody has uninterrupted electricity 24 hrs a day and 365 days a year.
Here is the reason for no electricity- and please learn it by writing it 1000 times on a blackboard..............
The government

Solution -
Let the private sector generate and distribute electricity.

I hope that explains it ........QED

[dahiyarules]

Mr Rajbahadur,

Here is the reason for no electricity- and please learn it by writing it 1000 times on a blackboard..............
The government

Solution -
Let the private sector generate and distribute electricity.

I hope that explains it ........QED

Ha Ha Ha :p I have written this a 1000 times on Jatland alone. Berra na inke ya baat pallay kyun naa padti?

[sidchhikara]

Ha Ha Ha :p I have written this a 1000 times on Jatland alone. Berra na inke ya baat pallay kyun naa padti?

Sumit bhai,
I found an excellent writeup that explains why people don't understand the free market and economic liberalisation phenomenon......
I will produce this blog post by Amit Varma on his blog www.indiauncut.com (http://www.indiauncut.com)

The original post is here..... http://indiauncut.com/iublog/article/andy-mukherjee-on-a-counterweight-to-the-marxists/

I have produced it in its entirety here for convenience. For all those reading this please check out the highlighted terms (emphasis mine) spontaneous order & invisible hand.
A counterweight to the Marxists

Andy Mukherjee joins the chorus (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&sid=aDNHH6F8.fOk&refer=home) for a political party that supports economic freedom alongside all others. He writes:

Urban middle-class young people are so engrossed in seizing the opportunities presented by the opening up of the economy that they are taking prudent, pro-market policies for granted.
If only they paid more attention to the rise of left-wing politics in Latin America, they would be less sanguine.
[...]
Unless there is a counterweight to the Marxists from an equally powerful group that can influence the policies of future coalition governments, there is no hope of quickly freeing the economy from the remaining tentacles of the state.
Without job creation, economic inequality is bound to rise in a country where half the people can’t read or write and even more haven’t been taught the skills needed for participation in the rapidly growing modern economy.
That, in turn, is fertile ground for left-wing extremism, which is already recognized by the government as probably the largest security threat facing the country today.
Would the mere presence of such a party bring about that counterbalance? Our voters being the way they are (http://indiauncut.com/iublog/article/amit-varma-reviews-the-myth-of-the-rational-voter-bryan-caplan/), even if a classical liberal party did exist, it would probably gain little support in the political arena. The Marxists might have all the wrong ideas, discredited completely by history, but they are couched in the right language, the language of compassion (http://indiauncut.com/iublog/article/the-devils-compassion/). Support for an interventionist state is far easier to whip up than for free markets, whose mechanisms—spontaneous order (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_order), the invisible hand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_hand)—are so unintuitive.
Still, one lives and blogs in hope.
(My earlier pieces on the subject: “Where’s the Freedom Party?” (http://indiauncut.com/iublog/article/politics-of-freedom-in-india/). “Minoo Masani and the Swatantra Party.” (http://indiauncut.blogspot.com/2005/09/minoo-masani-and-swatantra-party.html) And even earlier: 1 (http://indiauncut.blogspot.com/2005/04/new-third-front.html), 2 (http://indiauncut.blogspot.com/2005/05/what-ifs-of-cricket-and-much-else.html), 3 (http://indiauncut.blogspot.com/2005/06/soft-side-of-lk-advani.html), 4 (http://indiauncut.blogspot.com/2005/06/leaving-baggage-behind.html), 5 (http://indiauncut.blogspot.com/2005/07/not-umbilical-cord-but-noose.html) and 6 (http://indiauncut.blogspot.com/2005/07/government-like-cancer.html). Also see: “A Liberal Complaint.” (http://indiauncut.com/iublog/article/a-liberal-complaint/))
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[rkumar]

I am astonished to see how policies are being copied from west and being implemented without proper thinking and rationale. malls culture is being promoted without analysing the effects on socio-economic study. Government is under pressure of big corporate houses and traders lobby. One mall consumes electricity in a day which is sufficient to meet the needs of 10 villages. Today only 40% villages have electrification. Electrified villages get on average 2 hr electricity daily. Is it fair to open markets 7 days a week without restriction on opening/ closing timing. When traders lobby succeeded in pressurising to allow opening of shops without any restriction, they felt victorious. Today they are complaining about malls. In my opinion, both things have played/ playing havoc in the life nation particularly in delhi. Due heavy consumption of electricity by malls and late night opening of shops/ restaurants, demand has increased many fold. Noise pollution has increased. Civic system is under sever strain. Social relation are under strain. Is statement of CM that I want to see markets are open whole night as are in the West justified? Are we not heading towards disasterous future by copieng West without doing socio-economic study of these decisions?

Your concerns are very genuine. It seems we will learn the lessons hardway by paying very heavy prices for our actions. If you ask me, I am againts even too much of street lighting in big cities. I have seen the misuse of electricity not only in cities but in villages of western UP where they pay no bills or just fixed bills. Tube-wells operate even when its raining heavily. Result has been the depleting water level and flooding of village waterbodies with excessive water flowing into the drains from each house. Our planet does not have enough resources for such wasteful usase.

RK^2

[dahiyarules]

Before I came to America, I thought that a better government could fix the problems back home. People back home talk about turning India into a developed and prosperour nation like America.

After coming to America, I realized that the reason this country is so advanced and prosperous is because the government does not mess with private issues. Public problems are solved by private initiatives.

Talking about electricity supply, the services have been privatized from production to distribution. Government just collects the bills and maintains the supply network in some cases. Private companies do not come up with figures out of thin air like the government does when it comes to the demand for electricity and the prices people will pay for it. They follow the market concept of demand and supply.

That is the reason electricity never goes away even with all the malls and 24 hours supermarkets in the US.

[poonam]

Well, can’t disagree with Sumit and Sid!

It’s not the malls it’s the (1) government and (2) the power thieves begotten by our loose government.

No point discussing government, but yes, we certainly can discuss the component which is "we". Almost half of India’s electricity is stolen!!! Can you believe that?? And Delhi being “characterized” as the power theft capital of the world!!

Not just the poor slum dwellers, the middle and the upper and the educated.. regardless, most of them are are party to this mess. And those who condemn the power consumption in malls might be the ones tempering with their own electricity meters at home!!!

Well the solution is privatization, as mentioned by others. I heard privatization in Delhi has really helped in salvaging the electricity situation. Dont know about rest of the country, do they too are going to have it privatised if not already??

But one thing is sure, back home there is no stopping, no looking back!!! Who cares what your conscience tells you!!! :rolleyes:

[devdahiya]

Well, can’t disagree with Sumit and Sid!

It’s not the malls it’s the (1) government and (2) the power thieves begotten by our loose government.

No point discussing government, but yes, we certainly can discuss the component which is "we". Almost half of India’s electricity is stolen!!! Can you believe that?? And Delhi being “characterized” as the power theft capital of the world!!

Not just the poor slum dwellers, the middle and the upper and the educated.. regardless, most of them are are party to this mess. And those who condemn the power consumption in malls might be the ones tempering with their own electricity meters at home!!!

Well the solution is privatization, as mentioned by others. I heard privatization in Delhi has really helped in salvaging the electricity situation. Dont know about rest of the country, do they too are going to have it privatised if not already??

But one thing is sure, back home there is no stopping, no looking back!!! Who cares what your conscience tells you!!! :rolleyes:




On the very outset i must tell you bebey DACDDARNNI akk COURAGE in women is never mistaken for insanity but it is mistaken for her confusion about herself.......ha..ha..ha..bebey mwaaff karr diye......take it easy.

I agree with sumit&Poonam in totality.60% of electricity gets stolen in india and biggest culprits are the Villagers and JJ Colony people.you close all malls and divert whole of the electricity to these two catagories and they will DKKARRO it in full.We are the people who never learn in a right way....Deshi gadhha puravi chal.Long way to go...if at all we have selected a destination for us?

[dahiyarules]

Dont confuse the electricity supply in Delhi as privatization. Private companies may maintain the network and collect the bills. But, the supply and production is still controlled by the government.

Since the government cannot correctly gauge demand as it does not work on the principles of markets, we will never have adequate supply of electricity as long as we trust the government with it.

If a private company was producing and supplying electricity, it will be punished if it overproduced as it will be a wastage and thus hurt its profits. It will also be punished if it underproduces, as that will create an opportunity for competitors to jump in and take a share of the pie.

[shailendra]

Guys, the points raised by RajBahadur about the 'Mall' culture are so very valid...and it's quite easy to get side-tracked from the main discussion by start quoting 'Governmental ineffecienes'....
Agreed the Govt. has been missing in action on a lot of the real world (or should I say Indian) issues and that they have been so 'heroically' quoted so many times by some of us... but I fail to see why that should mean somebody simply shut-up and not try and analyze the 'other' reasonings and shortcomings behind these impacts that even the policy makers (immaterial of whether it is the public or the private sector) do not wanna think about at this stage of the game!?!

The point of the thread; the Mall culture- and what it means to the local Urban fabric, to the socio and economic blind-sightedness that it creates...and the impacts on the smaller businesses that have thrived in the conventional 'bazaar' scenario in India for so long etc. are all very much valid point of discussion!

On a sidebar- The mall's are slowly a dying dinosaur even in America even as we speak....and as an Urban Planner here I can tell you that they are already analyzing the major negative impacts it is having on the Urban development [(traffic congestion- as anchor big box retail areas that are to be developed on big sprawling acres that need to be accessed by driving long distances), (Anti to the mix of uses concept- Not the typical main street scenario with huge physical seperation from other residential, office areas), (Not pedestrian friendly- huge sea of parking lots around these retail monsters where one can easily get mugged, robbed or raped), etc. etc....

Issues that are so real here in all discussions related to future master Planning...and may seem too far fetched for what is happening in India at this early beginnings (just the spurt of that kinda growth) but issues that will become a reality if the planning (or the lack of it) continues to happen the way it is now...

The saddest part is that what they are realizing as mistakes here in this Nation are the new models of growth in India (and I don't even wanna start a discussion on Wal-mart here)

[sidchhikara]

Guys, the points raised by RajBahadur about the 'Mall' culture are so very valid...and it's quite easy to get side-tracked from the main discussion by start quoting 'Governmental ineffecienes'....
Agreed the Govt. has been missing in action on a lot of the real world (or should I say Indian) issues and that they have been so 'heroically' quoted so many times by some of us... but I fail to see why that should mean somebody simply shut-up and not try and analyze the 'other' reasonings and shortcomings behind these impacts that even the policy makers (immaterial of whether it is the public or the private sector) do not wanna think about at this stage of the game!?!

The point of the thread; the Mall culture- and what it means to the local Urban fabric, to the socio and economic blind-sightedness that it creates...and the impacts on the smaller businesses that have thrived in the conventional 'bazaar' scenario in India for so long etc. are all very much valid point of discussion!

On a sidebar- The mall's are slowly a dying dinosaur even in America even as we speak....and as an Urban Planner here I can tell you that they are already analyzing the major negative impacts it is having on the Urban development [(traffic congestion- as anchor big box retail areas that are to be developed on big sprawling acres that need to be accessed by driving long distances), (Anti to the mix of uses concept- Not the typical main street scenario with huge physical seperation from other residential, office areas), (Not pedestrian friendly- huge sea of parking lots around these retail monsters where one can easily get mugged, robbed or raped), etc. etc....

Issues that are so real here in all discussions related to future master Planning...and may seem too far fetched for what is happening in India at this early beginnings (just the spurt of that kinda growth) but issues that will become a reality if the planning (or the lack of it) continues to happen the way it is now...

The saddest part is that what they are realizing as mistakes here in this Nation are the new models of growth in India (and I don't even wanna start a discussion on Wal-mart here)

Shailendra bhai,
Rajbahadur was trying to imply that there is shortage of electricity in the villages because of the malls. I was trying to say that it is because of wrong energy policy. It is not a zero-sum game. If right energy policy is in place then such shortages will not happen.

As far as the small business owners are concerned, they will always be there because even in the US - you have big box stores like walmart and you also have your 7-11's and family owned stores in NY and other such places.

I know of this small shop owner in our sector in Gurgaon - he hires one 17 year old kid and pays him 800 Rs per month - the kid works 15-16 hrs a day - and he does'nt even have a proper shirt to wear - he is always half nanga. I think that boy will have more options if there is more businesses around - maybe even get a few hundred rupees more - just a thought.

[dahiyarules]

Guys, the points raised by RajBahadur about the 'Mall' culture are so very valid...and it's quite easy to get side-tracked from the main discussion by start quoting 'Governmental ineffecienes'....
Agreed the Govt. has been missing in action on a lot of the real world (or should I say Indian) issues and that they have been so 'heroically' quoted so many times by some of us... but I fail to see why that should mean somebody simply shut-up and not try and analyze the 'other' reasonings and shortcomings behind these impacts that even the policy makers (immaterial of whether it is the public or the private sector) do not wanna think about at this stage of the game!?!

The point of the thread; the Mall culture- and what it means to the local Urban fabric, to the socio and economic blind-sightedness that it creates...and the impacts on the smaller businesses that have thrived in the conventional 'bazaar' scenario in India for so long etc. are all very much valid point of discussion!

On a sidebar- The mall's are slowly a dying dinosaur even in America even as we speak....and as an Urban Planner here I can tell you that they are already analyzing the major negative impacts it is having on the Urban development [(traffic congestion- as anchor big box retail areas that are to be developed on big sprawling acres that need to be accessed by driving long distances), (Anti to the mix of uses concept- Not the typical main street scenario with huge physical seperation from other residential, office areas), (Not pedestrian friendly- huge sea of parking lots around these retail monsters where one can easily get mugged, robbed or raped), etc. etc....

Issues that are so real here in all discussions related to future master Planning...and may seem too far fetched for what is happening in India at this early beginnings (just the spurt of that kinda growth) but issues that will become a reality if the planning (or the lack of it) continues to happen the way it is now...

The saddest part is that what they are realizing as mistakes here in this Nation are the new models of growth in India (and I don't even wanna start a discussion on Wal-mart here)

The good part about the direction our society is headed, is that people can choose the kind of lifestyle they wish to live. Just because there is a high concentration of malls and fast-food joints, does not mean that the entire society is under an obligation to follow a given way of life.

People can still opt to be altruistic and live a very pristine lifestyle. My landlady is an 80 year old woman who lives a very simple lifestyle. She eats unrefrigerated organic food and abstains from using air conditioning. She drives a very eco-friendly car and most of her household cleaning supplies are bio-degradable.

On the other hand, I follow a totally opposite lifestyle. But, her good health and state of mind have motivated me to emulate her lifestyle. Fortunately, I live in a society where I have the flexibility to choose my way of life. This won't be an option if we turn our society to become a one-size fits all model.

You are an urban planner. And I am a consumer. It is your responsibility to plan around my needs and requirements, which in some cases may conflict with your personal opinions. The reason we have the kind of urban development in America is consumer demand. Generations of Urban Planners have responded to the demands of generations of consumers. Now some drawbacks are coming up, which are being examined and resolved by people like you.

The point is that societies must be developed around the needs of the consumer. If this does not happen then we are being professionally dishonest by failing to respond to consumer demands in a fair and serving manner.

[devdahiya]

Say whatever we want to but question which stares us all in the face is.....Development at what cost,whose cost,for what,for whom.Answer is simple....it is at a very heavy cost,at people's cost,to make a few handfulls to spend their filth,for these very handfulls who are part of a different planet.

I am not against development of any kind but if a majority of people don't benefit by that facelity it remains a symbolic venture.development must be as per the requirement of majority and for the overall good of that majority.Unfortunately it hardly happens that way in this country.It always is a SHOW OFF by people who have enmassed wealth by craft by fooling or by locking with the system and such people i am affraid can never have people's interest upfront while planning any venture...their aim always will be to generate more wealth by design and open a few more malls where a few filthy-wealthy people can come and arrange to spend their ever outflowing wealth basket and boast about it...otherwise it makes no damn difference to the life of 95% population out here.God bless malls and any such ventures if the aim is simpally to generate more wealth.

[deepakchoudhry]

Dev Bhai Sahib,

I agree with you, I dont know who came up with these Ideas about developing malls.

In 10 years gurgaon will become a Karol Bagh. Traffic, Pollution etc...they have started building malls/buildings without improving the Infrastructure.

Prioities are upside down.

Poor in India are suffering and rich are getting richer.

This is not a sign of balanced and progressive society.

Deepak

[shailendra]

You are an urban planner. And I am a consumer. It is your responsibility to plan around my needs and requirements, which in some cases may conflict with your personal opinions. The reason we have the kind of urban development in America is consumer demand. Generations of Urban Planners have responded to the demands of generations of consumers. Now some drawbacks are coming up, which are being examined and resolved by people like you.

...Nope! Sorry, but totally incorrect...unfortunately you seem to be confusing Urban Planners with Developers (Big difference!)
The equation never works the way that you are summarizing it.............Let me give you a Planning one-o-one;

Urban Planners like me that work with Governments actually MAKE the development policies and are responsible for Master Planning future communities and retrofitting existing ones; the very same policies and guidelines that any development and the developer has to then follow....land-use & Zoning maps that are carefully tweaked, designed and planned everyday with careful input from all other governmental agencies (like Public works, Parks, Transit etc) is not driven by any individual (developer/consumer) needs or what may have caught their immediate fancies (As a small example; we all know very well that a property owner/developer would only want to maximize what he can built on his property or site; totally immaterial whether it's height/density suits the surroundings or not, or deemed compatible with the projected future development of the neighborhood/region or not)!
...and that's exactly where a responsible govt with its planning for the future of the whole region comes into the picture; by actively and aggresively planning not by what the lobbyists want but by what makes sense in the long run (also called 'the big picture' by some)...

So interestingly while the Urban Planner (thru the Master plan) decides where the commercial goes, where it is gonna be Mixed-use, or residential, the kind of block structure or street patterns etc. etc ... but it never dictates (or even tries to) as to what kind, exactky how big andor what style it would end up looking like. That kind of flexibility has to be ingrained in into the blue print/policy/comprehensive plan because that sort of thing is completely market driven (or developer driven)...[But then make no mistake- a good masterplan (the big picture) while allowing that flexibility for ground realities to happen, should be well thought out and good enough to already know which direction it would be heading!]

In short: Master Planning is visioning for the future; to guide development as to where we [we as in the neighborhood, region, County, State or Nation] want to see it go; with enough buffers and planning on parallel infrastructure development, growth and sutainability, versus- Development and consumer needs that are simply market driven things (affected by Housing costs, Mall culture/fad, need of mix of uses, avilable Transit/transportation amenities etc.) that mostly fluctuate more than that tube-light in your room...to be replaced with something else on the ground soon (and guess what; then again the master plan is always there guiding and dictating that new development)!

...and so really;...The question that you actually need to be asking is; How responsible and serious any local government (and its planners), that we may have been talking about here in this thread, ....really how responsibly are they tackling future growth patterns!?!

...so while this developer-consumer driven development may sound like a natural progression; more often than naught these supposed 'needs' of consumers are usually just that- whims and fancies, driven by fads and what is flashier at the moment....to loose the luster at the turn of the year...I could go on driving the point home; but the bottom line is that's exactly why these Developed nations are at least trying to plan in advance for their future growths, rather than the other lopsided way round by 'allowing' builders (and lobbyists) a free reign to build the latest 'in-thing', in any style ...more like some wait n' watch game, RATHER than trying to plan in accordance with the more pressing infrastructural needs and population growth that may or may not sustain these haphazard, spur of the moment, flashier rejected models of western development!!!