Markovish -- Behaviour

[anilsinghd]

Well , sorry to be mathematical on the subject line , but i am not as well versed in the langugae as a few are. So i could not find a better word for this.

But i will try my best to explain myself.

Markovish refers to a process in which we base all our decisions on the present only ( the assumption being that present contains all information of the past)( some examples being the stock prices :o , forgive me for being technical here ).

What i feel is that these days ( and i have no evidence to prove the existence or non-existence of the smae in the past ) , people have started behaving markovish.

There is no sense of looking into the past , there is no sense of a certain calmness before taking a major decision , a decision that can have abig impact. Haste seems to be the most prevalent thing.
Be it replying to a post , be it in a relationship , be it a response to our parents , freinds , we seem to waste no time on giving ourselves enough time and facts and resources to base our decision on.


An example : 1. You know a person for long , he does something out of normal , something bad , and we find nothing other than pounce on him , not even trying to understand on why he did that ? or not even tolerating one human error ( Although we are all familiar of the saying : To err is being human ).

Hope we can have a constructive discussion on this.

Thanks !

[pscil]

You require a great calmness for retospective thinking and reflection. A mind at peace with itself can only achieve this. We act and behave in the markovish way because we only want to take and accumulate and not sacrifice. Today is the instant age

[deepakchoudhry]

Well , sorry to be mathematical on the subject line , but i am not as well versed in the langugae as a few are. So i could not find a better word for this.

But i will try my best to explain myself.

Markovish refers to a process in which we base all our decisions on the present only ( the assumption being that present contains all information of the past)( some examples being the stock prices :o , forgive me for being technical here ).

What i feel is that these days ( and i have no evidence to prove the existence or non-existence of the smae in the past ) , people have started behaving markovish.

There is no sense of looking into the past , there is no sense of a certain calmness before taking a major decision , a decision that can have abig impact. Haste seems to be the most prevalent thing.
Be it replying to a post , be it in a relationship , be it a response to our parents , freinds , we seem to waste no time on giving ourselves enough time and facts and resources to base our decision on.


An example : 1. You know a person for long , he does something out of normal , something bad , and we find nothing other than pounce on him , not even trying to understand on why he did that ? or not even tolerating one human error ( Although we are all familiar of the saying : To err is being human ).

Hope we can have a constructive discussion on this.

Thanks !

This only reflects about the person, who attacks without thinking.

To a great extent, it his or her frustartion/disappointments/anger in life which are being projected in that violence.

We are all fighting these battles, some find the way and some done't.

[anilsinghd]

Thanks Deepak and Parvir for replies.

Another thing that worth discussing would be that whether this type of behaviour is new/recent or it has always been there. What are your experiences with this ?

I am really not looking for the solution at the moment , because the solution lies in the problem definition itself , I am rather interested at the causes of such a behaviour , where the fact is that more are getting educated.

[vijay]

Markovish !!! ....... Nice word ....... MR. Dictionary :) hehehehehe

I don't think that people practice this theory as most of them knew already ( on whose posts they are going to appericiate and where they are going to criticize .... and upto what extent ........ more than 2 years experience of mine here says that only ) that ...... maybe some are totally neutral species ........ but post signature view of point ..........

Let's us suppose :

I had a bad post ....... since last two years of my membership here ............. my admireres would have told me that "this is not what you should post.... buddy ?" ...... Neutral ones would either restrict themselves to post or just say "bad post" ( means a lot for the poster if he/she could understand ) while some other start provoking and abusing ( depending on their mentality .... respectively ) .......

Analyze personally ! how you should have behaved .......


I remember a real time situation here last month when one of the most respected member posted something bad about someone 'personally' .... i just read the post and PM'ed that person instantly that "What are you posting ? You should not behave like this ?" and he immediately editted his post and i felt lucky that i stopped some unwanted tension here.

I think humanisn is a term to follow rather than to follow personalism. The person on whom he commented was so close to me rather than who posted but i responded with a respect in PM and everything get setteled ......... ( i could had used some nice words to quote someone .... like some people does ....... but i didn't )

How many of the people among us behave like that before accusing/provoking/abusing others ?

[deepakchoudhry]

Thanks Deepak and Parvir for replies.

Another thing that worth discussing would be that whether this type of behaviour is new/recent or it has always been there. What are your experiences with this ?

I am really not looking for the solution at the moment , because the solution lies in the problem definition itself , I am rather interested at the causes of such a behaviour , where the fact is that more are getting educated.

Aap bahut guudh baatan is forum per kar rahe ho and I appericiate it.

Your queries can be satisfied by Vedantic litrature i.e upanishads.

If you need any help in this regard, pls do not hesistate to contact me.

[simplejat]

Deepak bhai i 100 percent agree with you..........i wud like to add litle bit to it........yes ved/upnishads answer all this but it may happen that u may not understand the true meaning of slokh or another case may be u dont have time to go thru all this..........so best solution for this is take help of satsang.kisi bhe brhamnist sadguru ke sharan chale jao...........vedo ka gyan bhe milega .unka sahe matlab pata chalega.........jivan ke kaye rahasye ka bhed apne app khulega .......jivan or smajh ka sahe arth pata chalega.............MAI SATSANG KE MAHIMA KA PURA GUN GAN JANMO JANMO BHE NAHE KAR SAKTA

anil bhai mere layk koi is sandarbh me koi sewa ho toh jarur mauka de.



Aap bahut guudh baatan is forum per kar rahe ho and I appericiate it.

Your queries can be satisfied by Vedantic litrature i.e upanishads.

If you need any help in this regard, pls do not hesistate to contact me.

[anilsinghd]

Markovish !!! ....... Nice word ....... MR. Dictionary :) hehehehehe

I don't think that people practice this theory as most of them knew already ( on whose posts they are going to appericiate and where they are going to criticize .... and upto what extent ........ more than 2 years experience of mine here says that only ) that ...... maybe some are totally neutral species ........ but post signature view of point ..........

Let's us suppose :

I had a bad post ....... since last two years of my membership here ............. my admireres would have told me that "this is not what you should post.... buddy ?" ...... Neutral ones would either restrict themselves to post or just say "bad post" ( means a lot for the poster if he/she could understand ) while some other start provoking and abusing ( depending on their mentality .... respectively ) .......

Analyze personally ! how you should have behaved .......


I remember a real time situation here last month when one of the most respected member posted something bad about someone 'personally' .... i just read the post and PM'ed that person instantly that "What are you posting ? You should not behave like this ?" and he immediately editted his post and i felt lucky that i stopped some unwanted tension here.

I think humanisn is a term to follow rather than to follow personalism. The person on whom he commented was so close to me rather than who posted but i responded with a respect in PM and everything get setteled ......... ( i could had used some nice words to quote someone .... like some people does ....... but i didn't )

How many of the people among us behave like that before accusing/provoking/abusing others ?


@ Vijay : Yup , u described the problem in more detail and also restricted to jatland and its post. I wish that we can extend this discussion to more general framework.

Predefined notions or siding is ok , but i am looking at that sect who infact seems to be neutral and only behaves in this fashion when he himself is being tackled to !

Please be a lil more generic ! thanks ! Would be great to hear more !:)


Aap bahut guudh baatan is forum per kar rahe ho and I appericiate it.

Your queries can be satisfied by Vedantic litrature i.e upanishads.

If you need any help in this regard, pls do not hesistate to contact me.


@ Deepak : sir , guudh baatein sabko pata lagni chhaiye !! everybody here think of himself/herself as the best ! And i dont wish to classify , not even myself.

So i guess u can help all of us with what u intend to say by posting here. would love to listen.
:)

[anilsinghd]

here is a communication i shared with a friend today ! These are my said things :

Worth having a look ( consider these as my views ) for sake of discussion !

u know what i am thiking of this fact these days :

the ego of persons have reached an all time high !
=======================================
such is the insecurity with people that they tend to not even look at any suggestions or any statements from others.
I really believe that the sense organ "ear" is no longer of that great use.

People are not really listening to others. While talking to the other person , they are actually thinking of ways to counter what the other is saying ( irrespective of what the other is saying).

No one wants to improve. No one has any touch of the past. What matters for people is the immediate ( read it as present ) behaviour.

And dont get me in the sense that i am talking specific.
These things not only happen in personal talks , relations , friendships , but even in professional relationships.

I am generalizing , and i know that generalizing is harmful but i am very sure .

U know something. These days everyone thinks of himself/herself as an specialist in analysing human behaviour and the superiority complex has set up in every individual.

dont go far , think of yourself. Is not that true ?

Now tell me if everyone is superior than every one else , who is actually the superior ?

nature has not defined any superiority in human beings ?

all are similar when it comes to when people are born.

On what scale people can decide who is superior , who is not. Ofcourse there are some quantitative tests and things to do that. but in this 6 biillion people on an average score of hundred ( of a particular test ) and considering every score as equally likely ( which is offcourse not true ) , there are 60 million people on one score , dividing across different age , there are approximately 1 million people of same age and same IQ !


and they are not superior of each other !! But in todays era , everybody thinks of himself/herself as superior http://www.orkut.com/img/i_surprise.gif

Now tell me , what should happen , obviously , there has to be chaos , and that is what we are observing.

The solution lie in understanding and appreciating the difference , appreciating the uniqueness. In taking people as individuals http://www.orkut.com/img/i_smile.gif ! and not as objects , which is what is widespread these days.


But who has the patience of calming himself to understand the beauty that lies in the difference.

[deepakchoudhry]

Deepak bhai i 100 percent agree with you..........i wud like to add litle bit to it........yes ved/upnishads answer all this but it may happen that u may not understand the true meaning of slokh or another case may be u dont have time to go thru all this..........so best solution for this is take help of satsang.kisi bhe brhamnist sadguru ke sharan chale jao...........vedo ka gyan bhe milega .unka sahe matlab pata chalega.........jivan ke kaye rahasye ka bhed apne app khulega .......jivan or smajh ka sahe arth pata chalega.............MAI SATSANG KE MAHIMA KA PURA GUN GAN JANMO JANMO BHE NAHE KAR SAKTA

anil bhai mere layk koi is sandarbh me koi sewa ho toh jarur mauka de.

Of course you need help but sabsa bada guru hamray andar hi hai. If we ask for help, the help will come.

Now information is easily available so one should not wait for guru to come along.

Secondly we should have a spiritual/religion section on Jatland.

[pscil]

Well Anil the behaviour has always been there but it has got exaggerated due to the low tolerance level of the people and the blind aping of the west. When you chase fame you loose happiness and when you chase happiness you loose fame to gain both you need to do your karma

[spdeshwal]

Dear Anil

to me superiority of an individual is a matter of his or her own conviction and for others is a matter of perception. How we react to the comment of others is also a matter of conviction and perception. Don't you remember the riddle about "shortening a line without erasing or cutting it". Not all in the group would be able to answer that. Someone would perceive the right path and without fiddling with the existing line would draw a longer line beside the one already there.

It makes me believe after analysing your posts in this thread that somebody has hurt your 'ego'. Although it is a wild guess but I think somebody's behaviour has knowingly or unknowingly caused some unrest in your mind. But then the question is what is behaviour. To me, it is a set of norms for a social group or a smaller group or two or more individual for their own and collective convenience.
Anyways, probably i am beating about the bush but I read a Golden rule, that was signature of one our earliest but one time active members. I believe it was Bhai Ashok Dabas's signature and that read something like this:

" No one can hurt my ego without my consent"
so the point i wish to convey is that when something bad is said or commented about an individual, its impact is determined by the fact that how much he or she cares about the comment and the person who has made the comment. Closer the personal relationship, bigger would be the impact.
So if you wish to minimise the damage than drop the adverse comments from your thought process like a unfinished cigarette held in your fingers. So it is all about your 'attitude' in handling situations like this.

For gaining and keeping inner peace, I remember another golden line from the introduction thread by our esteemed member Bhai Karamveer Chahal
"sabhee par vishvash karta hun aur apne liye jhooth nahi bolta"

Finally I would like to emphasize that we shouldn't say or write anything to win a point or a debate, that can hut somebody's feelings/ego.





Cheers!

[anilsinghd]

Dear Anil

to me superiority of an individual is a matter of his or her own conviction and for others is a matter of perception. How we react to the comment of others is also a matter of conviction and perception. Don't you remember the riddle about "shortening a line without erasing or cutting it". Not all in the group would be able to answer that. Someone would perceive the right path and without fiddling with the existing line would draw a longer line beside the one already there.

It makes me believe after analysing your posts in this thread that somebody has hurt your 'ego'. Although it is a wild guess but I think somebody's behaviour has knowingly or unknowingly caused some unrest in your mind. But then the question is what is behaviour. To me, it is a set of norms for a social group or a smaller group or two or more individual for their own and collective convenience.
Anyways, probably i am beating about the bush but I read a Golden rule, that was signature of one our earliest but one time active members. I believe it was Bhai Ashok Dabas's signature and that read something like this:

" No one can hurt my ego without my consent"
so the point i wish to convey is that when something bad is said or commented about an individual, its impact is determined by the fact that how much he or she cares about the comment and the person who has made the comment. Closer the personal relationship, bigger would be the impact.
So if you wish to minimise the damage than drop the adverse comments from your thought process like a unfinished cigarette held in your fingers. So it is all about your 'attitude' in handling situations like this.

For gaining and keeping inner peace, I remember another golden line from the introduction thread by our esteemed member Bhai Karamveer Chahal
"sabhee par vishvash karta hun aur apne liye jhooth nahi bolta"

Finally I would like to emphasize that we shouldn't say or write anything to win a point or a debate, that can hut somebody's feelings/ego.

Cheers!

Hi Sir , Thanks for your contribution.
IT was really interesting to read your post and i could find out a way to tkae this thread and discussion forward with the limited audience we have had.

As PArvir Sir mentioned , we have blindly copied the west. I am still not sure on how this is done ? Do people in West have low tolerance level ?

And i think we should try a bit harder for other sources to analyse.

Regarding your assumption / guess ! No you are wrong , no body has hurt my ego. Infact that quote of nobody can hurt our ego without our consent is so true.

The same is true with me. I divide the comments from anyone in some broad categories ! Some are total nonsense and i dont care , some are sugegsting a change ( and if the source / comment ) is worth , i give it due consideration , and I would not hesitate a bit to change myself for good.
If the point worth a debate i would go forward with a totally open mind , respect for the person i am talking to , respect to his views and would converse.


I found the procedure simple enough.

What confuses me is that why dont people seem to follow this ?

Dont take me wrong , i am just making an example , your guess that somebody has hurt me is again a symptom of our preassumptions.

I am being a generalist , I always try talking about human behaviour in general because one or two cases dont have any statistical significace to base our conclusions on.

You would know this fact , even on jatland , if u talk about something , there are pre defined notions , pre defined ways of response. I appreciate the individuality and uniqueness of people but at time it hurts to see people developing such a hatred for wach other for no reasons !
And the reason is the lack of communication or better stated is the lack of intention to listen to each other.

Have we reached a situation wehre we dont have respect for others ? I think one of the must of being human is to respect other humans .

And then if u talk as a genrealist , people have this habbit of getting you down by saying that i am pretending and this is applicable to everyone who tries to be rational about things.

Why are we turning our ears to something that is logical , rational , true , general just because it is against our view ?


And the stroy is not specific to jatland , it goes to all such social networking site , and to real life realtionships !

Pause for a moment to think of the kind of prudence we have developed. The phrases like :
Jaat to bhaai nyun hi rehvange
jaat to swaad liya karein
jaat yeh ,,,, jaat woh .....

Think of the language we use at times !!! Any foul word , rotten statements , bad behaviour is categorised as using jat / haryanvi language.

I might be sounding harsh but the general behaviour towards ladies/girls has reached such a low that i better call it as talking to your saali/bhaabhi !!

And that is being generalised to everyone ( including unknowns ) ! WE do not have that bit of patience to wait for a few days / a few conversations / a few talks to try and prove our " over friendliness " to them.

I have been on internet and i have met so many people ( on internet and then personally ( i guess must be around 60-70 ) ) , I never ever has to fight against someone , I never had to abuse someone , yet i was able to establish relationships ( and long lasting as well ) !!!!

I like observing behaviour and it has seriously degraded in last 2-3 years , And here is where PArvir Sir's comment of blindly following the west has come onto picture.

What is the reason that we are not having enough patience ? IS 2 years a big enough time frame to degrade this much ? And the rate at which we are going , what does it holds for future ?


Sorry for this big post ,but sicne you tried to get into my mind of what i was talking about , i thought of explaining myself. Hope you appreciate the points and take the discussion forward.
:)

[vijay]

Anil,

I agree that most of the people here believe on this Markovish theory ......... present time relationships are better than the past ones ..... and who knows about the future. And believe me they are better prepared for the future relationships and raring to go to break old ones for the sake of new ones.

Again i don't want to go personally ....... but i felt that i tried to help so many people personally here but later the 'Markovish' behaviour showed the real face.

Whenever we landed up in a new world/environment we try to find some like minded characters and hence develop some relationships. After some time we feel that some relations are on the edge.

Worst case is also there when we help someone as being a newcomer and that person feel proud of being someone special..... and later ...... you know ........... sometimes results as being a foe.



An example : 1. You know a person for long , he does something out of normal , something bad , and we find nothing other than pounce on him , not even trying to understand on why he did that ? or not even tolerating one human error ( Although we are all familiar of the saying : To err is being human ).


To err is being human .......... is just a saying ........ as people except some perfectionlism when someone is posting but never bother about what they are commenting on that ........ freedom to comment is better than freedom to post ..............

Most of the poeple here are pre determined that whose post they have to admire and whose post they must criticize ...... whatever the content :)

Humanism, moral values, neutral behaviour etc ...... does they exist ?

[anilsinghd]

Anil,


Humanism, moral values, neutral behaviour etc ...... does they exist ?


Yes they do ! To prove their existence i just have to quote one name ! And do i tell you what that is ?


Meanwhile t o prove their non-existence , u need to prove it for everyone.


That was the first lesson i learnt in the Discrete MAths course !:)

[neels]

Well , sorry to be mathematical on the subject line , but i am not as well versed in the langugae as a few are. So i could not find a better word for this.

But i will try my best to explain myself.

Markovish refers to a process in which we base all our decisions on the present only ( the assumption being that present contains all information of the past)( some examples being the stock prices :o , forgive me for being technical here ).

Hope we can have a constructive discussion on this.

Thanks !

Coming very late on this reflective thread.
Intersting Terminology.... we can think to bring that into Psychology:). well to make it simple.... Impulsive is the word which describes similar behavior.

so many points to discuss in this thread.... ll do one by one.

In general ppl are getting reactive,, loosing patience,,, don reflect before reacting. some of them thou later realize on second thoughts... editing certain posts here is an example of that.
pehle jo kaha kerte na... ki kuch bhi bolne se pehle 2 baar sochna chahiye.... is loosing strength. And i feel thats the most important asset in ones' behavior one can entwine.

I don think west has anything to do in this changing mentality of ours.

[anilsinghd]

.. Impulsive is the word which describes similar behavior.


I don think west has anything to do in this changing mentality of ours.


yups impulsive is a good word to describe !!!


and even i agree west has no direct influence on this.


Wuould look forward to hear more from u on this ?


@ Parvir Sir: Please enlighten us on how do u think west has to contribute on this ?

[pscil]

yups impulsive is a good word to describe !!!


and even i agree west has no direct influence on this.


Wuould look forward to hear more from u on this ?


@ Parvir Sir: Please enlighten us on how do u think west has to contribute on this ?

Please don't get me wrong; you have the good guys and bad guys across the world. I have great praise for the non hyprocritical and materialistic culture of the west and I don't make an apology for being materialistic; a materialistic outlook with a spiritual centre is what I would term my outlook. I also have great respect for the spiritual moorings of the east especially India.

What I am saying is that the great traditions of yoga build a lot of patience in a person and helps him to focus his energy for the benefit of others. and by yoga i just don't mean the physical excercises which just a small part of the yoga tradition but the mental equilibirium need to lead a balanced life.

Somewhere down the line I feel we are blindly coping the west the traditions of which are based on deduction, reduction, differentiation and alienation. We have lost our cultural moorings, which give an anchor to a person. Till differntiation it is okay but when it starts getting to the level of alienation it becomes a problem.

Shivaji was asked why he built a massive grave for Afzal Khan when the Hindus were raped and thrown to the dogs by the muslims and he replied this is the difference between a Shri and the muslims. We do not hate the person but only his deeds and when the person is dead what is their to hate. just an example of our noble tradition and culture.

[deepakchoudhry]

Hi Anil,

2 children born in the same family with same upbringing respond differently to a given situation.

Why???

Sometimes we are surprised even disgusted by our own thoughts, although there was no reason to be thinking about them ?

Where do these thoughts come from and what was the cause for their manifestation??

Your question is also a reaction? so why did you ask the question.:)


Deepak

[deepakchoudhry]

Please don't get me wrong; you have the good guys and bad guys across the world. I have great praise for the non hyprocritical and materialistic culture of the west and I don't make an apology for being materialistic; a materialistic outlook with a spiritual centre is what I would term my outlook. I also have great respect for the spiritual moorings of the east especially India.

What I am saying is that the great traditions of yoga build a lot of patience in a person and helps him to focus his energy for the benefit of others. and by yoga i just don't mean the physical excercises which just a small part of the yoga tradition but the mental equilibirium need to lead a balanced life.

Somewhere down the line I feel we are blindly coping the west the traditions of which are based on deduction, reduction, differentiation and alienation. We have lost our cultural moorings, which give an anchor to a person. Till differntiation it is okay but when it starts getting to the level of alienation it becomes a problem.

Shivaji was asked why he built a massive grave for Afzal Khan when the Hindus were raped and thrown to the dogs by the muslims and he replied this is the difference between a Shri and the muslims. We do not hate the person but only his deeds and when the person is dead what is their to hate. just an example of our noble tradition and culture.

Indian value system has never been against materialism, I don't know who has started this myth.

Right knowledge, Right understanding, Right action is the end result of Yoga.

[pscil]

I never said Indian philosphy is against materialism, we have the great sankhya tradition. What I am saying is that we concerntared more on the spiritual development neglecting the materialistic aspect,Most battles lost were due to the neglect of technological warfare, this led to our slavery for a 1000 years firt by the muslim invaders and then the british.

[vijay]

What I am saying is that the great traditions of yoga build a lot of patience in a person and helps him to focus his energy for the benefit of others. and by yoga i just don't mean the physical excercises which just a small part of the yoga tradition but the mental equilibirium need to lead a balanced life.


Right ! Just like a sportsman ...... as just being atheletic on playground is not a sportsmanship at all but how gracefully someone playing and accepting the outcome with a positive attitude is the true sportsmanship.



Somewhere down the line I feel we are blindly coping the west the traditions of which are based on deduction, reduction, differentiation and alienation. We have lost our cultural moorings, which give an anchor to a person. Till differntiation it is okay but when it starts getting to the level of alienation it becomes a problem.


Mathematics shows the way ......

To differentiate we don't need any integration but the Integration can't be completeed without differentiation.



Shivaji was asked why he built a massive grave for Afzal Khan when the Hindus were raped and thrown to the dogs by the muslims and he replied this is the difference between a Shri and the muslims. We do not hate the person but only his deeds and when the person is dead what is their to hate. just an example of our noble tradition and culture.

Bhishm fought for the Kaurvas but Pandavas still loved and respected him .... that says all :)

[vijay]

Most battles lost were due to the neglect of technological warfare, this led to our slavery for a 1000 years firt by the muslim invaders and then the british.

Most of the battles were lost due to over materialism ( read ..... selfishness ) only.

We Indians have all the contrast from being over spiritual to over materialistic .... From Gandhari to Gandhi .... and from Duryodhana to Jaichand ......can't be generalized.

[vijay]

Intersting Terminology.... we can think to bring that into Psychology:). well to make it simple.... Impulsive is the word which describes similar behavior.


I don't think that Markowish behaviour resembles with Impulsive behaviour by any means.

As Markowish is totally a practical and pre-determined behavour that how someone is going to behave with a 'specific' person whatever the situation while being Impulsive is just a state of mind where someone react unintentionally with everyone 'unspecifically' without any reason and without considering that whomever is at the receiving end.

[pscil]

Most of the battles were lost due to over materialism ( read ..... selfishness ) only.

We Indians have all the contrast from being over spiritual to over materialistic .... From Gandhari to Gandhi .... and from Duryodhana to Jaichand ......can't be generalized.

1000's of women committing Jauhar to save them from the ravaging muslim invaders is definitely not materialism.

[vijay]

1000's of women committing Jauhar to save them from the ravaging muslim invaders is definitely not materialism.

Offcourse ... that was not materialism by any means ..... but that was only after loosing the battle ...... :)

and Sir :) i remember that i commented on the reason where we lost battles but not about those brave women.

[anilsinghd]

Pleasure to see a genuine discussion going on.


I agree with you Vijay ( i think i was wrong on this ) , impulsive can be distinguished from markovish .

Thanks for highlighting the difference.


MEanwhile just to get everyone touch base , lets not really go into history and all , let us try to answer the problem at hand with the following steps (ofcourse u people can add on )

1. appreciating whether this problem exists or not?
2. whether we are improving / deterioating ?
3. any present day reasons u think are responsible for this : lets have a factor approach on this !
4. steps u think that can help.

:)

[anilsinghd]

Hi Anil,

2 children born in the same family with same upbringing respond differently to a given situation.

Why???
Sometimes we are surprised even disgusted by our own thoughts, although there was no reason to be thinking about them ?
Where do these thoughts come from and what was the cause for their manifestation??
Your question is also a reaction? so why did you ask the question.:)
Deepak

Hi Sir , u r right ! Even i am a behaviourist and believe that its the circumstances that shape the personality.
Going by this approach , what do u think is the reason for sucha reaction. IT is not the ideal reaction for sure.

Can we try and identify the reasons/circumstances that people react in such a way !!! Why cant they put things into perspective ?
Why cant they have the memory ? OR other way put , why is the memory fading away.

[vijay]

I agree with you Vijay ( i think i was wrong on this ) , impulsive can be distinguished from markovish .

Thanks for highlighting the difference.


I wish that i have this great quality that you possess. :)

[crsnadar]

What we WRITE..............&............What we SPEAK

Sometimes there may be a huge difference between these two.


We judge people on their writing skills...which reflect only a glimps of WRITER's personality & not the COMPLETE PERSONA...

Sometime it be entirely oppsite of what we imagine...or make someone's picture or nature or behaviour...

...but this is an era of Virtual World a Wireless World...where so many people live a significant portion of their life irrespective of where they are going or what would be the outcome...


This Virtual World has brought so many people in contact who would never come to know each other had this WWW would not have been here...

We interface DIGITALLY but we are HUMAN being
so erruption of erratic & mawkish behaviours from some sauls is quite obvious...Let's hope of limiting it to MINIMUM...by Big Heartedly FORGIVING tolerable errors...

Because many sauls are LEARNING here...they may not at a level of Perfection yet...

BUT THEY ARE TRYING...& TRYING IT HARD

[neels]

What we WRITE..............&............What we SPEAK

Sometimes there may be a huge difference between these two.


We judge people on their writing skills...which reflect only a glimps of WRITER's personality & not the COMPLETE PERSONA...

Sometime it be entirely oppsite of what we imagine...or make someone's picture or nature or behaviour...



Rightly said Rahul.

[neels]

I don't think that Markowish behaviour resembles with Impulsive behaviour by any means.

As Markowish is totally a practical and pre-determined behavour that how someone is going to behave with a 'specific' person whatever the situation while being Impulsive is just a state of mind where someone react unintentionally with everyone 'unspecifically' without any reason and without considering that whomever is at the receiving end.

I didnt say they mean same. As Anil said we base all our decisions on the present only (the assumption being that present contains all information of the past), and do not consider past,,,,, fr that I mentioned its sthing like impulsive.

Well this is not only Environment,,, genetics also play a big role.... 2 children born in same family,,, may ve temperamental differences. Behaviorists were totally environmentalists and objective....whereas deterministic n cognitive approaches and individuality have also lot to say in human behavior.

[dkumars]

Intersting Terminology.... we can think to bring that into Psychology:). well to make it simple.... Impulsive is the word which describes similar behavior.


I don't think that Markowish behaviour resembles with Impulsive behaviour by any means.

As Markowish is totally a practical and pre-determined behavour that how someone is going to behave with a 'specific' person whatever the situation while being Impulsive is just a state of mind where someone react unintentionally with everyone 'unspecifically' without any reason and without considering that whomever is at the receiving end.


This thread was started on 24th feb and u replied/came to know abt this term on 26th feb.... Now, u have a good knowledge of practical and theoritical terms. Pre-determined, post-determined and all that big big complex words. Good progress. Keep it up. I never saw such a great grasping power and intelligence. I have noticed ur knowledge and intelligence on other threads too. U are really very impressive personality. Congrats!!! Why don u try in guinness book of world records... give a shot dude, m sure u can create several records and can make ur community, country feel proud. This way we poor ppl will get some fame.
All the very best :).

Your Silent Admirer

[neels]

I don't think that Markowish behaviour resembles with Impulsive behaviour by any means.

As Markowish is totally a practical and pre-determined behavour that how someone is going to behave with a 'specific' person whatever the situation while being Impulsive is just a state of mind where someone react unintentionally with everyone 'unspecifically' without any reason and without considering that whomever is at the receiving end.

BTW from where you got this definition...as I ve never seen/heard such a term like Markovish Behaviour ....pls refer that dictionary to me also.

And Impulsive what I understand is......actuated or swayed by emotional impulses,,, Inclined to act on the influence of a particular feeling, mental state(impulse) rather than thought,,, characterized by undue haste and lack of thought or deliberation,,,,determined by chance or impulse or whim rather than by necessity or reason. In that light I feel,,, behaviour of todays generation is becoming very impulsive.

[vijay]

And Impulsive what I understand is......actuated or swayed by emotional impulses,,, Inclined to act on the influence of a particular feeling, mental state(impulse) rather than thought,,, characterized by undue haste and lack of thought or deliberation,,,,determined by chance or impulse or whim rather than by necessity or reason. In that light I feel,,, behaviour of todays generation is becoming very impulsive.

Correct ........ my wording was different but meaning is same if you please read my post once again .... it's just a state of mind driven with some instant thoughts only ...... no concern with overall observation and/or any kind of pre-determined assumptions.

Yes ....... impulse is driving todays youth drastically :)

[vijay]

This thread was started on 24th feb and u replied/came to know abt this term on 26th feb.... Now, u have a good knowledge of practical and theoritical terms. Pre-determined, post-determined and all that big big complex words. Good progress. Keep it up. I never saw such a great grasping power and intelligence. I have noticed ur knowledge and intelligence on other threads too. U are really very impressive personality. Congrats!!! Why don u try in guinness book of world records... give a shot dude, m sure u can create several records and can make ur community, country feel proud. This way we poor ppl will get some fame.
All the very best :).

Your Silent Admirer

Thanx :)

I replied after two days ( seems a long time :) ) ..... but it's still far better than 11 March.

[anilsinghd]

This thread was started on 24th feb and u replied/came to know abt this term on 26th feb.... Now, u have a good knowledge of practical and theoritical terms. Pre-determined, post-determined and all that big big complex words. Good progress. Keep it up. I never saw such a great grasping power and intelligence. I have noticed ur knowledge and intelligence on other threads too. U are really very impressive personality. Congrats!!! Why don u try in guinness book of world records... give a shot dude, m sure u can create several records and can make ur community, country feel proud. This way we poor ppl will get some fame.
All the very best :).

Your Silent Admirer


sorry to ask devender !!!

but this is surely off topic ( in both the circumstances : a genuine applause or a undue sarcasm ) !

A sincere request to keep the things to discussion only , the people who are discussing and not enjoying the discussion are welcome to opt out ,

I am happy that the posts thus far have clearly been on the constructive differences of opinion


Thanks !

[vijay]

Well this is not only Environment,,, genetics also play a big role.... 2 children born in same family,,, may ve temperamental differences. Behaviorists were totally environmentalists and objective....whereas deterministic n cognitive approaches and individuality have also lot to say in human behavior.

Not only children from the same family ........... i use to watch the twins almost everyday .. how they differ in behaviour .... totally contrast.

I suppose that individuality plays a big role in a personality development.

Everybody have some relationship with their 'own' people ....... but came across some different opinions about them i.e. offline and online ...... Is Net affecting their thinking or dominating their Impulse ?

Seeking attention for oneself is much more popular than paying attention to the subject itself ..... people landed up just to comment without saying a word on the topic literally. .......... Markowish behaviour at it's best ....... forget about being Impulsive ....... too narrow subject for the discussion after this.

Self analyzation and Intutions plays a big role in real human behaviour ....... selfishness and being opportunistic is the second factor ......... and reacting anywhere/everywhere without any valid argument is the worst human behaviour.

Genetic study tells about the genes only but never tells about the environmental effects.

Psychology is the best approach to analyze a person ..... provided that what someone want to analyze :)

[vijay]

Because many sauls are LEARNING here...they may not at a level of Perfection yet...

BUT THEY ARE TRYING...& TRYING IT HARD

I would like to know what is perfection and who are the lucky/admirable people who achieved that level .... so far :)

Believe me ..... i am a good learner.

[neels]

Not only children from the same family ........... i use to watch the twins almost everyday .. how they differ in behaviour .... totally contrast.

I suppose that individuality plays a big role in a personality development.
.
.
.
Genetic study tells about the genes only but never tells about the environmental effects.

Psychology is the best approach to analyze a person ..... provided that what someone want to analyze :)

Of course fraternal twins ve different constitutional makeup.... its only monozygotic or identical ones who share same genetic structure. so to study the real environmental effect,,,they are the perfect cases...none else,,,,as for everyone else biological makeup has much to say.
Individuality plays a big role in the personality development....bt then most of theories of personality also talk about temperamnetal differences also. Do you know there's neural explanation for being extravert or introvert also.
Psychology gives due importance to both - heredity and environment. Some ppl are more in favor of nature,, while others nurture.... no conclusion... they both have significant role in the development.
In Psychology,,, this is the age of cognitive neuroscience... they talk about knowledge,,,, thinking,,, n other cognitive abilities,,, and their neural network. Even behaviorists ve shifted their approach to behavioral neuroscience,,,,Humanistic trends are of a valuable importance,,,as they give importance to the free will of the beings,,,what they want, what are their wishes,,, i feel that is the the real individual psychology.

[dkumars]

sorry to ask devender !!!

but this is surely off topic ( in both the circumstances : a genuine applause or a undue sarcasm ) !

A sincere request to keep the things to discussion only , the people who are discussing and not enjoying the discussion are welcome to opt out ,

I am happy that the posts thus far have clearly been on the constructive differences of opinion


Thanks !


U are bilkul right brother. Its off topic and may digress the discussion. Regading thit will talk to u sometime on chat.

One thing i want to mention here. If someone starts a thread then he may be considered as an owner of the thread but its not important that he will nourish the thread or will attach emotionally. If i start a thread then its just an idea/topic i want to share. There is nothing to do with any kind of ego that this thread is started by me and i am responsible for replies and will give right direction.
Nourishing, giving a right direction to the thread is the job of moderators.
Please dont feel offended here. Its a humble request.

[anilsinghd]

What we WRITE..............&............What we SPEAK

Sometimes there may be a huge difference between these two.


We judge people on their writing skills...which reflect only a glimps of WRITER's personality & not the COMPLETE PERSONA...
...but this is an era of Virtual World a Wireless World

We interface DIGITALLY but we are HUMAN being
so erruption of erratic & mawkish behaviours from some sauls is quite obvious...Let's hope of limiting it to MINIMUM...by Big Heartedly FORGIVING tolerable errors...

Because many sauls are LEARNING here...they may not at a level of Perfection yet...

BUT THEY ARE TRYING...& TRYING IT HARD

Valid points Rahul.
I agree that these days we write and speak and act differently, but thats not anywhere near ideal. Kabir said to follow "mansa , vacha , karmna " and i guess thats the way to go.

But i kind of disagree with you on judging people based on their writing skills , at least i dont do that. I have this complex theory of going beyond ! We do have examples of people who can write so good on all subjects and they seem like so learned that one could categorise them as "dev rishis" but over time one can easily make out the superficiality of their thoughts.
and they do tend to contradict themselves subtly over the same topic in thier different posts ( of course one needs to follow very closely and minutely ).

And your point of virtual world is correct , infact the whole logic of me asking a question in this thread was to do with the process of the virtual world. And your thought that erruption of erratic and markowish behaviour is obvious seems very contradictory to me. Infact the way i look at it it should be the other way round. You dotn know a person much on this virtual world , so it should automatically be obvious to you that you are not gonna be your 100 % at any point of time , you will be a bit reserved , , are not you ?
Its like with a stranger , you cannot be your natural self to him from the word go. Adn with these virtual world relations , u never know the other side completely even aftera lot of time has passed , so one "should" be a bit reserved , should not one and have no assumptions about the other.
Thats thw way to go , isnt it ?
but infact we are seeing things exactly opposite of this !:confused:

and continuing on the virtual world , i guess it is a wonderful opportunity with a lot of upside and a very little downside.
Gets me to my newest of theories which i hypothesized last week :D
Not to bore you a lot , but the virtual world gives you an opportunity to start a relationship with no expectations but a lot of upside if u can actually make it.
I personally have been attached to more than 50 people now ( in a little over 2 years ) and share a very nice bond and never ever have been involoved in something very bad of the same.
hope to extend the discussion on this !


BTW from where you got this definition...as I ve never seen/heard such a term like Markovish Behaviour ....pls refer that dictionary to me also.

And Impulsive what I understand is......actuated or swayed by emotional impulses,,, Inclined to act on the influence of a particular feeling, mental state(impulse) rather than thought,,, characterized by undue haste and lack of thought or deliberation,,,,determined by chance or impulse or whim rather than by necessity or reason. In that light I feel,,, behaviour of todays generation is becoming very impulsive.

Seems like a bit of confusion over the definition , and for that matter dont think even i have a definition , may be i can add a bit of clarity.

markovish as i defined it ealier refers to acting based only on the present with the assumption that present occupies all info of the past. it can be fine in case of other thingsa s stocks etc , but in human feelings and emotions , it is not such a good thing , to err is being human and if we base our decisions based only on the past and wipe out the history ( and please appreciate that the present actions/feelings of a person annot have all the info of the past ).

Neelam , at first i seemed to agree on your synonymity of markovish with implusive but after vijays post i thought on it again and i guess there are some fundamental differences which i would like to highlight :
Implusive beahviour is the pne that arises out feom an impluse and acts for a short time with a powerful magnitude ( in short thats the definition of impluse for physicists ), its a reactionary behaviour !
Markovish on the other hand is something in which it is really not the big impluse thats required to generate such a beahviour , i have seen very mild jolts generating sucha behaviour and it is also not short-lasted , becuase i have come across very few who would reverse their decision after once taking an action ( we are living in such a high ego world these days ).

I would rather make an statement and this goes without proof ( thats an hobservation from me and i hypothesize it ) ( may be you people can think on it and we can discuss ).
"" Implusive is more pronounced in personal and real world relations , markovish in virtual world applications.""
though with time , they both have general applicability.




Everybody have some relationship with their 'own' people ....... but came across some different opinions about them i.e. offline and online ...... Is Net affecting their thinking or dominating their Impulse ?



Most of the people on internet and active in the forums such as we are on here , are technocrats and these are the very people who should understand the importance of reasoning. But i gues we myself are degrading ourselves by not asking enough questions , by not putting strain on our brain , by not going behind what are the causals for a particular event.
The most important reason for sucha thing i would suppose is that most come with an attitue of pastime and having fun and for relaxation, which is not always the case i believe , because there will be ome people who will always have the propensity of having food for mind. And of course differing personalities and the fundamental of uniquneness of personalities does not help either ! We are looking for soothing of mind and when we get that from a relation ( on virtual world ) , we fall for it and we are in a fantasy world , but the moment the reality starts biting you , or the moment someone tends to disagree , or tends to make you come out of sedateness of your mind , we averse the situation.
I guess we have come to terms with the fact that we are on a virtual world , but we also need to come to terms that it is not going to be always rosy as this would rather lead to arbitrage.
We should come to terms that we will have good days and bad days , others will have good days and bad days and we have to tolerate , forgive , seek help , seek forgiveness, ultimately moving into the realm of actual world.


Of course fraternal twins ve different constitutional makeup.... its only monozygotic or identical ones who share same genetic structure. so to study the real environmental effect,,,they are the perfect cases...none else,,,,as for everyone else biological makeup has much to say.
Individuality plays a big role in the personality development....bt then most of theories of personality also talk about temperamnetal differences also. Do you know there's neural explanation for being extravert or introvert also.
Psychology gives due importance to both - heredity and environment. Some ppl are more in favor of nature,, while others nurture.... no conclusion... they both have significant role in the development.
In Psychology,,, this is the age of cognitive neuroscience... they talk about knowledge,,,, thinking,,, n other cognitive abilities,,, and their neural network. Even behaviorists ve shifted their approach to behavioral neuroscience,,,,Humanistic trends are of a valuable importance,,,as they give importance to the free will of the beings,,,what they want, what are their wishes,,, i feel that is the the real individual psychology.
I am not learned enough ( neither in biology , neural sciences nor in psychology )to extract meaning out of that. :)

[anilsinghd]

Seeking attention for oneself is much more popular than paying attention to the subject itself ..... people landed up just to comment without saying a word on the topic literally.

I guess just to comment is something which can be tolerated because it is not as harmful as people who come to comment with pre defined notions and with no willingness to even look at the points raised by others , in a sense having no regard for the opinion of others.

The real problem is when they think they are bigger than the topic itself. :)

[vijay]

We judge people on their writing skills...which reflect only a glimps of WRITER's personality & not the COMPLETE PERSONA...


What is complete persona ? I bet that write ups defines a peson if you watch closely about their write ups ............. but ya 1-2 posts can't define a personally .... but if even after hundreds/thousands of posts someone can't recognize a person than one shouldn't blame the Net rather than accpeting someone's own shortcoming to analyze a person literally.



Sometime it be entirely oppsite of what we imagine...or make someone's picture or nature or behaviour...


Why imagine only ....... can't people guess what type of a person is with whom they are talking too ..........

It's gud to have some perceptions and later blame them being on Net only



Because many sauls are LEARNING here...they may not at a level of Perfection yet...

BUT THEY ARE TRYING...& TRYING IT HARD

Asking you again ...... please tell me what is the perfection ?

[vijay]

Of course fraternal twins ve different constitutional makeup.... its only monozygotic or identical ones who share same genetic structure. so to study the real environmental effect,,,they are the perfect cases...none else,,,,as for everyone else biological makeup has much to say.
Individuality plays a big role in the personality development....bt then most of theories of personality also talk about temperamnetal differences also. Do you know there's neural explanation for being extravert or introvert also.
Psychology gives due importance to both - heredity and environment. Some ppl are more in favor of nature,, while others nurture.... no conclusion... they both have significant role in the development.

In Psychology,,, this is the age of cognitive neuroscience... they talk about knowledge,,,, thinking,,, n other cognitive abilities,,, and their neural network. Even behaviorists ve shifted their approach to behavioral neuroscience,,,,Humanistic trends are of a valuable importance,,,as they give importance to the free will of the beings,,,what they want, what are their wishes,,, i feel that is the the real individual psychology.


Madam Ji, Baalak hoon ..... kuchh palle nahin pada ( means couldn't understand anything ) ........... umeed hai mujhe daant nahin padegi :)

[vijay]

I would rather make an statement and this goes without proof ( thats an hobservation from me and i hypothesize it ) ( may be you people can think on it and we can discuss ).
"" Implusive is more pronounced in personal and real world relations , markovish in virtual world applications.""
though with time , they both have general applicability.


I would like to define it again ...... please bear with me

Impulsive is just a state of mind when people react unintentionally with a certain forceful thoughts for the time being while markovish behaviour is all about the pre-determined thoughts on some certain reactions of present only (forgetting the past).

Impulse prevails and passes away with the time shortly while marlovish behaviour stay tuned forever.

And above all, an Impulsive behaviour leading to behave someone as Markovish is much worse than a markovish behaviour leading someone to behave Impulsive.

But yes ..... Markovish as well as being Impulsive is bad for any human being.

[pscil]

I would like to define it again ...... please bear with me

Impulsive is just a state of mind when people react unintentionally with a certain forceful thoughts for the time being while markovish behaviour is all about the pre-determined thoughts on some certain reactions of present only (forgetting the past).

Impulse prevails and passes away with the time shortly while marlovish behaviour stay tuned forever.

And above all, an Impulsive behaviour leading to behave someone as Markovish is much worse than a markovish behaviour leading someone to behave Impulsive.

But yes ..... Markovish as well as being Impulsive is bad for any human being.

Nature does not merely abhor vacuum;apparantely it shuns the linear patterns too.Ancient Indians seem to have sensed these non linear patterns and tendency to cycles in time, which is in stark contrast to the western intellectual tradition.Few natural phenomena occour in straight lines or a grid of parallel lines but rather in whrols and eddies, circles or ellipses, spiral and networks.

Most of us are prisioners of the conditioned reflexs of our minds. We think as we have been brought up top think. Even when we think we are free thinkers we might choose what we think but not how we think. The later is circumscribed by training, by birth, by subtle brainwashing of society and economic and social class to which we belong. So called facts therefore seldom appear exactly the same to two different people, especially when these facts have to do with human relationships.

This brings us to the crucial connection between te part and the whole. For Goethe the whole was something dynamic and living that continually came into being "in concrete manifestations". In turn, a part was manifestation of the whole rather than just a component of it.. Neither exists without the other. The whole exists through continually manifesting in parts and parts exist as embodiments of the whole. The advaita philosphy called it the lack of duality- in other words, a false belif that there is a finite and seperate agent called self.

We take the linear model of thinking of the western intellectual tradition which is again based on the cause and effect phenomena and apply the determinancy of science to human realationships forgetting the crucial difference that we are dealing with dynamic and ever changing entities and not inert matter. We now know that advances in non linear dynamics and computer simulations are making it possible to visualise the effects of climate and epedemics.This is called scenorio building a suggested alterative to a more deterministic way such as forecasting.

This is the reason I have been saying is that we are blindly copying the western intellectual tradition of deduction, reduction, differentation and alienation leading to the markovish behaviour, while forgetting our ancient wisdom of induction, expansion, integration a system of thought based on the non duality of matter or advaita.

[anilsinghd]

Nature does not merely abhor vacuum;apparantely it shuns the linear patterns too.Ancient Indians seem to have sensed these non linear patterns and tendency to cycles in time, which is in stark contrast to the western intellectual tradition.Few natural phenomena occour in straight lines or a grid of parallel lines but rather in whrols and eddies, circles or ellipses, spiral and networks.

Most of us are prisioners of the conditioned reflexs of our minds. We think as we have been brought up top think. Even when we think we are free thinkers we might choose what we think but not how we think. The later is circumscribed by training, by birth, by subtle brainwashing of society and economic and social class to which we belong. So called facts therefore seldom appear exactly the same to two different people, especially when these facts have to do with human relationships.

This brings us to the crucial connection between te part and the whole. For Goethe the whole was something dynamic and living that continually came into being "in concrete manifestations". In turn, a part was manifestation of the whole rather than just a component of it.. Neither exists without the other. The whole exists through continually manifesting in parts and parts exist as embodiments of the whole. The advaita philosphy called it the lack of duality- in other words, a false belif that there is a finite and seperate agent called self.

We take the linear model of thinking of the western intellectual tradition which is again based on the cause and effect phenomena and apply the determinancy of science to human realationships forgetting the crucial difference that we are dealing with dynamic and ever changing entities and not inert matter. We now know that advances in non linear dynamics and computer simulations are making it possible to visualise the effects of climate and epedemics.This is called scenorio building a suggested alterative to a more deterministic way such as forecasting.

This is the reason I have been saying is that we are blindly copying the western intellectual tradition of deduction, reduction, differentation and alienation leading to the markovish behaviour, while forgetting our ancient wisdom of induction, expansion, integration a system of thought based on the non duality of matter or advaita.


Hello Sir ,

Thanks a lot for the clarification. What i derived from your post was one certain fact that there are things by birth and things that are there.
Also u highlighted that we are copying from the west, i tend to take your hypothesis.

Just to make it concrete , I wish in your next post you can give us some concrete examples , some real life example on where are these things put into practice. I know it would bea bit hard to turn abstract into examples but i know you can do it for sure.

thanks again for taking the discussion forward.



@ Vijay : I warn you not to say "define" :) because again these are person specific and are not universal.
But yes we are agreeing right ?

Just waiting for Neelam Ji to concur. :):)

[neels]

I would like to define it again ...... please bear with me

Impulsive is just a state of mind when people react unintentionally with a certain forceful thoughts for the time being while markovish behaviour is all about the pre-determined thoughts on some certain reactions of present only (forgetting the past).

Impulse prevails and passes away with the time shortly while marlovish behaviour stay tuned forever.

And above all, an Impulsive behaviour leading to behave someone as Markovish is much worse than a markovish behaviour leading someone to behave Impulsive.

But yes ..... Markovish as well as being Impulsive is bad for any human being.

And I would like to ask again the source of these definitions....sply the Markovish... BEHAVIOR.... :)

[neels]

I guess just to comment is something which can be tolerated because it is not as harmful as people who come to comment with pre defined notions and with no willingness to even look at the points raised by others , in a sense having no regard for the opinion of others.

The real problem is when they think they are bigger than the topic itself. :)

yeah..... and not only this...sometimes..its criticism just for the sake of criticism.... you don ve anything against wht is said... but lots of anguish against the person who has written it... so yu just ve to criticize.....:)

[neels]

Madam Ji, Baalak hoon ..... kuchh palle nahin pada ( means couldn't understand anything ) ........... umeed hai mujhe daant nahin padegi :)

Baalak tum agyan k andhere mein ho.... abhi bahut gyan ki aavshyakta hai..... means need lots to know.......:)


jokes apart...try to understand the essence.... i didnt explain in much detail to avoid to make it v long..... essence was... its nt only envt which is imp.. genetics is also very important in personality..... the temperamental side of personality is related to genetic endowment. ... so both are important in personality development. ... and somehow this kinda beh which yu guys are discussing is also due to temperamental differences.

GOT it......... or need one more lecture..... yu know i belong to teaching faculty...never tired of giving lectures.... HA HA HA

[vijay]

And I would like to ask again the source of these definitions....sply the Markovish... BEHAVIOR.... :)

Technically or more precisely English meaning/definitions of the words Impulsive and Markovish can be found in any Modern English Dictionary ... :)

But yes ... here we are discussing about human behaviour which can be termed as Markovish or Impulsive ...... a broad spectrum indeed. We can't refer any link or any object to define them precisely. But we can try to know the meaning of the word itself first and then analyze a specific human behaviour according to that norms. Any Dictionary can't tell/describe a big why behind that behaviour but we humans can try to understand and describe that why ...... and that is the real source of our definitions ........ practically ...... isn't it ?

[neels]

Technically or more precisely English meaning/definitions of the words Impulsive and Markovish can be found in any Modern English Dictionary ... :)

But yes ... here we are discussing about human behaviour which can be termed as Markovish or Impulsive ...... a broad spectrum indeed. We can't refer any link or any object to define them precisely. But we can try to know the meaning of the word itself first and then analyze a specific human behaviour according to that norms. Any Dictionary can't tell/describe a big why behind that behaviour but we humans can try to understand and describe that why ...... and that is the real source of our definitions ........ practically ...... isn't it ?

Agreed to the second part of the post... bt dictionary.com has no word like markovish.... its a technical term of science,, agree can be adapted to general usage in terms of behavior...bt yu cant say tht its defined as such..... depends on ones own thought process,,,how one takes it.

[vijay]

Agreed to the second part of the post... bt dictionary.com has no word like markovish.... its a technical term of science,, agree can be adapted to general usage in terms of behavior...bt yu cant say tht its defined as such..... depends on ones own thought process,,,how one takes it.

Agree ....... Impulsive is a technical English word while Markovish is purely a Mathematical Term ......

Yup .... thought process ..... that's what i mean exactly ........ how, where and what we thought in different circumstances :)

[neels]

Seems like a bit of confusion over the definition , and for that matter dont think even i have a definition , may be i can add a bit of clarity.

markovish as i defined it ealier refers to acting based only on the present with the assumption that present occupies all info of the past. it can be fine in case of other thingsa s stocks etc , but in human feelings and emotions , it is not such a good thing , to err is being human and if we base our decisions based only on the past and wipe out the history ( and please appreciate that the present actions/feelings of a person annot have all the info of the past ).

Neelam , at first i seemed to agree on your synonymity of markovish with implusive but after vijays post i thought on it again and i guess there are some fundamental differences which i would like to highlight :
Implusive beahviour is the pne that arises out feom an impluse and acts for a short time with a powerful magnitude ( in short thats the definition of impluse for physicists ), its a reactionary behaviour !
Markovish on the other hand is something in which it is really not the big impluse thats required to generate such a beahviour , i have seen very mild jolts generating sucha behaviour and it is also not short-lasted , becuase i have come across very few who would reverse their decision after once taking an action ( we are living in such a high ego world these days ).

I would rather make an statement and this goes without proof ( thats an hobservation from me and i hypothesize it ) ( may be you people can think on it and we can discuss ).
"" Implusive is more pronounced in personal and real world relations , markovish in virtual world applications.""
though with time , they both have general applicability.

I am not learned enough ( neither in biology , neural sciences nor in psychology )to extract meaning out of that. :)

hope yu can extract some meaning of that now...:)

virtual world n relations..... this is an intersting area.... so much happening...n nothing real.... a perfect subject to study....
Your hypothesis sounds intersting n have some substance....can be tested...:)...
very true... ego is on all time high ride these days..

[neels]

Yup .... thought process ..... that's what i mean exactly ........ how, where and what we thought in different circumstances :)

And thats all what cognitions are... Cognitive psychology..yu see....:)

[anilsinghd]

matlab saaaron ne kasam khaa rakhi idhar udhar bhatakne ki :(


just kidding , infact i am finding it interesting that the topic has led to several difft things involved into it.


But we must address the issue as well.


Neelam ji , u r right in saying that we dont have a formal definition of the word - markovish. Infact i created it by using markov +ish.

And i just used it to describe the pattern of beahviour i observe.
so i agree that my perspective can be difft from yours and thats y i put it to discussion.

In parts , but we have agreed that we are behaving in a manner that is close to the definition of markovish me and vijay ( in patches ) have put across.

And as Parvir Sir have theorised that it arises from blind copying of the west and we are all expecting hiim to substantiate this with real life examples in his next post.

WE must also try and suggest the steps we must take in order to avoid such things as these are surely not ideal.

Lets discuss on : are there any specific circumstances ( our life , work life ) or may be anything substantial ( when we compare and contrast the real and the virtual world ) that lead to this ?

And can we do better and if yes then how ?


Thanks and Regards,
Anil

[neels]

I would rather make an statement and this goes without proof ( thats an hobservation from me and i hypothesize it ) ( may be you people can think on it and we can discuss ).
"" Implusive is more pronounced in personal and real world relations , markovish in virtual world applications.""
though with time , they both have general applicability.

:)

Well i don feel so completely....thou its correct to some aspects...

Their are impulsive reactions in virtual world also stimes.....n some markovish beh patterns in real life too can be seen.
n s times which i find most strange...we ve predispositions abt ppl..whom we don know well.. don ve any reason fr those biases...bt we ve.... we don like some ppl ...n we ve no specific or general reasons fr these feelings.

[vijay]

And thats all what cognitions are... Cognitive psychology..yu see....:)


Cognitive psychology is mostly based on perceptions and reasons behind that perceptions ........... so should we include the word perception to discuss further :)

[anilsinghd]

Well i don feel so completely....thou its correct to some aspects...

Their are impulsive reactions in virtual world also stimes.....n some markovish beh patterns in real life too can be seen.
n s times which i find most strange...we ve predispositions abt ppl..whom we don know well.. don ve any reason fr those biases...bt we ve.... we don like some ppl ...n we ve no specific or general reasons fr these feelings.


Agreed and thats y i wrote with time they have general applicability ! :)


==========

whom we don know well.. don ve any reason fr those biases...bt we ve.... we don like some ppl ...n we ve no specific or general reasons fr these feelings

==========

Regarding this , i guess we cannot say we dont have "any" reasons for biases , but surely this is possible that the reasons are too small to even consider. ( Because if u absolutely dont have any reason for a bias , one cant be normal :D , on a more serious note , the reasons can be just that we dont like the persons profile , may be a pic , in the sense that he/she is not percieved by us as a specific type we like ! )

The more important thing is that we are avert to change , we are so so resistant and this undermines us.
For example , even i dont like a f ew people when i just know nothing about them , example on jatland someone posts and might be it is his first post ( or the first i have seen ) , and i dont tend to like him.
But i never refrain myself from building on the perception , i never constrain myself from changing my stance.

Again going technical on this , for me its like an assumed parameter ( the initial percpetion ) and then i iterate till i re ach the percpetion that is strong enough to change or more technically that is not changed with mild discontinuities or events.

And that leads me to yet another important aspect ( and it suits the context perfectly ); i believe that there should be continuity in things ( again that goes without proof , its a hunch of me ) , continuity in thoughts , feelings , smooth is nice.
Its the discontinuity ( sudden rise or fall ( being too recpetive to events ) ) that causes wrong things.

Any comments on that ?

[neels]

Cognitive psychology is mostly based on perceptions and reasons behind that perceptions ........... so should we include the word perception to discuss further :)

Oh noooooo... cognition is nt such a narrow term...its a wide area.... including thinking also..... which is at the root of all our images,,,communications,,decisions,,,judgements,,, reasoning,,,,,etc etc.

[dkumars]

I think its not Markovish but its Markovich. Search wud be easier if u use the second one. Although, m not much successful till now.
As somewhere Anil told he created this term Markov + ish ... so may be no such term exists in the books and web(till now)

[dkumars]

Agreed to the second part of the post... bt dictionary.com has no word like markovish.... its a technical term of science,, agree can be adapted to general usage in terms of behavior...bt yu cant say tht its defined as such..... depends on ones own thought process,,,how one takes it.



I think this is a concept given by an Ukranian scientist. Further, Anil can explain it better as he must be having knowledge abt this as he started the discussion.

[neels]

I think its not Markovish but its Markovich. Search wud be easy if u use the second one.

nahin DK...dictionary mein to markovich bhi nahin hai.....:confused:

[dkumars]

nahin DK...dictionary mein to markovich bhi nahin hai.....:confused:


Try out dictionary.com's encyclopedia and then using some keywords, play googling. Although m not sure coz till now i havent got anything relevant.

[vijay]

Oh noooooo... cognition is nt such a narrow term...its a wide area.... including thinking also..... which is at the root of all our images,,,communications,,decisions,,,judgements,,, reasoning,,,,,etc etc.

Obviously thinking is the root of all our actions.

And about Cognitive Psychology ..... you can describe it better than anyone else here :)

[anilsinghd]

I guess i have already clarified through the course of the discussion that i derived this word from markov process ( which is there in probability theory and queuing theory ( for curious readers reference )).

I also explained that i just added this -ish to apply to the behaviour that we presently do.

I am not claiming it exists or is in some dictionary or already defined.

I know the concept in Maths and when i was thinking about human behaviour we have in general these days , it just struck me to use this term.


And i believe during he course of discussion we have contemplated on the same.

Again i emphasise , nothing is bigger than the discussion , I dont mind changing the term , The idea was to explore the human behaviour these days and i guess the discussion has been really on the brighter side.

Thank you to all the candidated in the discussion and we are surely moving on.
ope that clears it out ,:)

[neels]

I guess i have already clarified through the course of the discussion that i derived this word from markov process ( which is there in probability theory and queuing theory ( for curious readers reference )).

I also explained that i just added this -ish to apply to the behaviour that we presently do.

I am not claiming it exists or is in some dictionary or already defined.

I know the concept in Maths and when i was thinking about human behaviour we have in general these days , it just struck me to use this term.


And i believe during he course of discussion we have contemplated on the same.

Again i emphasise , nothing is bigger than the discussion , I dont mind changing the term , The idea was to explore the human behaviour these days and i guess the discussion has been really on the brighter side.

Thank you to all the candidated in the discussion and we are surely moving on.
ope that clears it out ,:)

no Confusion abt ur using the term....I understand how n frm where yu used it.....
i just askd fr source to Vijay as he was mentioning the term so strongly that it is defined so n so.........as such its really some behavioral term.

[anilsinghd]

no Confusion abt ur using the term....I understand how n frm where yu used it.....
i just askd fr source to Vijay as he was mentioning the term so strongly that it is defined so n so.........as such its really some behavioral term.


So should we move on ?

anyone volunteering to sum up ?

[vijay]

i just askd fr source to Vijay as he was mentioning the term so strongly that it is defined so n so.........as such its really some behavioral term.


Neel :)

I don't think that i ever said that term Markovish is already well defined ..... and i firmly believe that nobody can define a behaviour as a personality itself ....... we all people have some gud and bad traits and behave accordingly depending upon the situations only ......... the question is that how we behave when provided with a situation. Any given situation and the resulting behaviour perpose a theory of human behaviour (practically).

Regarding terms ........... we always talk about rational behaviour ...... Rational is also a mathematical term ............ we are used to define a personality or behaviour with some terms ....... like good, bad, true, false, acceptive, deceptive etc etc ..... these terms are subject specific only...... but we define/distinguish a personal behahiour using that terminology.

As human and behaviour themselves are two different terms ........

Am i wrong :) ?

[neels]

.......
@Vijay... ohh its okay... now move ahead..no more discussion on definitions... :)

[vijay]

@Vijay... ohh its okay... now move ahead..no more discussion on definitions... :)

Yes .... time to move ahead :)

[shashiverma]

Well , sorry to be mathematical on the subject line , but i am not as well versed in the langugae as a few are. So i could not find a better word for this.

But i will try my best to explain myself.

Markovish refers to a process in which we base all our decisions on the present only ( the assumption being that present contains all information of the past)( some examples being the stock prices :o , forgive me for being technical here ).

What i feel is that these days ( and i have no evidence to prove the existence or non-existence of the smae in the past ) , people have started behaving markovish.


An example : 1. You know a person for long , he does something out of normal , something bad , and we find nothing other than pounce on him , not even trying to understand on why he did that ? or not even tolerating one human error ( Although we are all familiar of the saying : To err is being human ).

Hope we can have a constructive discussion on this.

Thanks !

Thank you Anil for this thread. I am myself surprised that such readings do effect people to such an extent. Although most of time I used to be careful about my reactions but than sometime we take thigns for granted and do not realise when they lose their grounds....May be that was the case....But after reading this thread now I give myself few minutes before reacting (May be not intentionaly but it got coded subconsciously...after the initial good results). And it really helped me to avoid so many unpleasant situations. True... sometimes in a hurry to react to present we ignore the reasons behind what we merely see and what could be the possible realties behind the scene we have in front of our eyes....Now many a times I have found myself ignoring many situations saying that it is out of her/his character...so possibly something else might be the reason..let me wait for the facts.....

[anilsinghd]

Thank you Anil for this thread. I am myself surprised that such readings do effect people to such an extent. Although most of time I used to be careful about my reactions but than sometime we take thigns for granted and do not realise when they lose their grounds....May be that was the case....But after reading this thread now I give myself few minutes before reacting (May be not intentionaly but it got coded subconsciously...after the initial good results). And it really helped me to avoid so many unpleasant situations. True... sometimes in a hurry to react to present we ignore the reasons behind what we merely see and what could be the possible realties behind the scene we have in front of our eyes....Now many a times I have found myself ignoring many situations saying that it is out of her/his character...so possibly something else might be the reason..let me wait for the facts.....


Thanks Shashi ji for the input , i am happy to learn that the thread produced something constructive.


May be i can conclude that we all need to develop the quality of equanimity that is not allow our emotions to run extreme in either direction.

:)

[trueblueindian]

Well , sorry to be mathematical on the subject line , but i am not as well versed in the langugae as a few are. So i could not find a better word for this.

But i will try my best to explain myself.

Markovish refers to a process in which we base all our decisions on the present only ( the assumption being that present contains all information of the past)( some examples being the stock prices :o , forgive me for being technical here ).

What i feel is that these days ( and i have no evidence to prove the existence or non-existence of the smae in the past ) , people have started behaving markovish.

There is no sense of looking into the past , there is no sense of a certain calmness before taking a major decision , a decision that can have abig impact. Haste seems to be the most prevalent thing.
Be it replying to a post , be it in a relationship , be it a response to our parents , freinds , we seem to waste no time on giving ourselves enough time and facts and resources to base our decision on.


An example : 1. You know a person for long , he does something out of normal , something bad , and we find nothing other than pounce on him , not even trying to understand on why he did that ? or not even tolerating one human error ( Although we are all familiar of the saying : To err is being human ).

Hope we can have a constructive discussion on this.

Thanks !


very very nicely expressed .. dear ... to err is human and to forgive and join again is eternal (LEAST PRACTICED) ... but then who belives in this theory is yet to be seen .... ppl seldom challange their own wisdom while as allways they preffer to challange other soul mates ... even the best fail when it comes to relations .... and for record WE ALL have physchology literate ppl who jumped the gun when it comes to their individual live's .... its to err if u r human and we all sail in the same boat .... wot saddns is that ppl who study and know all this behave in strANGE IN ERRING MANNER - and this makes me challange their whole education and capacity till date


can i take the liberty to route it all back to our anscetors -
woh keheya kartey akk bardaasht/seheney mei sabtey baddi shakti sei

[pscil]

Nature does not merely abhor vacuum; apparently it shuns the linear patterns too. Ancient Indians seem to have sensed these non linear patterns and tendency to cycles in time (this was the reason for the discovery of the concept of zero and the decimal by Indians), which is in stark contrast to the western intellectual tradition of duality and linearity. Few natural phenomena occur in straight lines or a grid of parallel lines but rather in whorls and eddies, circles or ellipses, spiral and networks.

Most of us are prisoners of the conditioned reflexes of our minds. We think as we have been brought up top think. Even when we think we are free thinkers we might choose what we think but not how we think. The later is circumscribed by training, by birth, by subtle brainwashing of society and economic and social class to which we belong. That is the reason why the Japanese have a saying that it takes 10 years to grow a tree but 100 years to grow a human being. The so called facts therefore seldom appear exactly the same to two different people, especially when these facts have to do with human relationships.

This brings us to the crucial connection between the man and the society he lives in or broadly the connexion between the part and the whole. For Goethe the whole was something dynamic and living that continually came into being "in concrete manifestations". In turn, a part was manifestation of the whole rather than just a component of it. Neither exists without the other. The whole exists through continually manifesting in parts and parts exist as embodiments of the whole. The Indian philosophy of advaita or non duality called it the lack of duality- in other words, a false belief that there is a finite and separate agent called self. Therefore as the great medieval thinker Jalauddin Rumi said "beyond the right doing and wrong doing there is a world, I shall meet you there. A world of pure consciousness.

We take the linear model of thinking of the western intellectual tradition which is again based on the cause and effect phenomena and apply the determinacy of science to human relationships forgetting the crucial difference that we are dealing with dynamic and ever changing entities and not inert matter; Roland Barthes the great structuralist thinker would term this as mono logical thinking in contrast to dialogical and translogical thinking. Monological thinking was the reason why Newton could not unravel the mystery of nature, which Einstein managed to do; it was also the reason why Napoleon lost the battle of waterloo. We now know that advances in non linear dynamics and computer simulations are making it possible to visualize the effects of climate and epidemics. This is called scenario building a suggested alternative to a more deterministic way such as forecasting. In management we also follow the scenario building model for project management.

This is the reason I have been saying is that we are blindly copying the western intellectual tradition of deduction, reduction, differentiation and alienation, while forgetting our ancient wisdom of induction, expansion, inclusion and integration a system of thought based on the non duality of matter or advaita.Today quantum physics to operations research in math's are all based on the concept of the non duality of matter and follow the non linear principles for their advanced studies. This however does not undermine the principles of linearity as we use them in studies of vectors.

We live with intellectual inconsistencies and different levels of truths even in the modern world. For instance we simultaneously believe in and utilize the classical mechanics of Newton and the relativity theory of Einstein. Both the theories are true at the same time, but not on the same level.

My only aim is to highlight our ancient Indian traditions (The little that I know of them ). I think India can contribute a lot to the world peace and harmony. The worst kind of arrogance is the arrogance of knowledge, we must learn from the mistakes of the west. India can teach the spiritually starved west for the next 5000 years. The time for India has arrived, let us gather our resources and move forward with confidence. Growth and development is life, stagnation is death. We have to move from Gyan (knowledge) to Vigyan (science) to Pragyan (supreme intelligence). Pragyan is the situation in which the consciousness and the unconscious are fully alert.

[shashiverma]

Thanks for sharing your views PSD ji.

[Maniisha]

Thread reopened ...As per users request .. :)

[neels]

wow anil..whatt an analysis.

[anilsinghd]

Feel free to add on , if someone still has some points. :)

Thanks!

[vijay]

What I am saying is that the great traditions of yoga build a lot of patience in a person and helps him to focus his energy for the benefit of others. and by yoga i just don't mean the physical excercises which just a small part of the yoga tradition but the mental equilibirium need to lead a balanced life.


I agree with you that Yoga, Dhyan and other similar practices build a lot of patience, helps to develop a character and broaden your vision towards life, people and surroundings. The technical aspect behind all these practice is to relate your body and the vibrations of mind in a perfect synch. Lack of a perfect body-mind equilibrium results into an abnormal behaviour. This body-mind euqation is totally a reversible phenomenon and should be maintained at equilibrium as a slightest excess of any variable may lead it into any direction.

Practicing Yoga etc doesn't mean completing physical excercise only but mental devotion is an important part of it. These practices are not made for only burning out fat or gaining weight but it's all about maintaining your body and mind in equilibrium. I remember that during college days i used to be quite aggressive and loose tempered. Then i joined a Martial Arts and that brought a drastic change in my behaviour and attitude. I became more patient and easy going. That changed a lot of things in my life and my thinking.

I suppose any sports activity helps you to release the stress and make you feel comfortable. But there should be right approach and attitude. If you learn boxing to beat or kill someone then it will certainly not going to help you by any means. Similarly if you try to learn Hypnotism to lure someone with bad intentions it may lead so many abnormalities in your nature, behaviour and thinking.

[vijay]

Most of the people on internet and active in the forums such as we are on here , are technocrats and these are the very people who should understand the importance of reasoning. But i gues we myself are degrading ourselves by not asking enough questions , by not putting strain on our brain , by not going behind what are the causals for a particular event.
The most important reason for sucha thing i would suppose is that most come with an attitue of pastime and having fun and for relaxation, which is not always the case i believe , because there will be ome people who will always have the propensity of having food for mind. And of course differing personalities and the fundamental of uniquneness of personalities does not help either ! We are looking for soothing of mind and when we get that from a relation ( on virtual world ) , we fall for it and we are in a fantasy world , but the moment the reality starts biting you , or the moment someone tends to disagree , or tends to make you come out of sedateness of your mind , we averse the situation.
I guess we have come to terms with the fact that we are on a virtual world , but we also need to come to terms that it is not going to be always rosy as this would rather lead to arbitrage.
We should come to terms that we will have good days and bad days , others will have good days and bad days and we have to tolerate , forgive , seek help , seek forgiveness, ultimately moving into the realm of actual world.

Anil, most of the people active on internet and especially on forums, community sites just live in virtual world. Virtual world as implies is like a world of choices where we just choose what we like and for how long we like a specific pattern of life. Reasoning always take a back seat when we live by our own choices and Net provides a perfect ground for creating such a nice ideal world. Personal likes and dislikes are more important in such a world rather than right or wrong or any type moral ethics. Personal likes and dislikes seems to be based upon individual perceptions instead of practical realities and cross examinations of the facts. Nobody seems to take pain of digging out the actual truth as it requires lot of efforts and mind stress.

The other option is quite simple and straight forward, just hear from somewhere that someone is not good, make a perception about that entity, decide to like or dislike, and move ahead with the conclusion. How beautiful this world is ? No pains, No gains ( never mind ) and obviously no complain untill somehow the truth haunts you back with bitter ground realities. Net is the best things to blame without thinking about their own uncalculated and unanalyzed perceptions.

We come across Markovish behaviour from someone after these approaches. Firstly, a virtually fabricated ideal profile turned out as a bundle of lies and the entity under observation seems like a villain NOW. Secondly, a proposed and assumed bad guy emerges out as a nice person and that also lead to the Markovish behaviour ( maybe for the good ... but here we are discussing Markovish behaviour only ).

To sum up this post, any perception without cross examining and analyzing the figures and facts practically leads to a wrong approach towards person specific. When they came out of their dreamland, people seems changed and hence they behave accordingly. Totally opposite to the way they used to behave in the past and a perfect example of Markovish Behaviour.