Deny visa to Modi again, US state department told - Justified?

[desijat]

Interesting read: but is it justified to treat a CM like this?

The United States Commission on International Religious Freedom -- a Congressionally mandated body -- has urged the US State Department "to reaffirm its past decision to deny a tourist visa to Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi , who has been invited to attend a conference in New Jersey this August celebrating Gujarati culture."

The USCIRF recalled that Modi was "previously denied entrance to the United States due to his role in riots that overtook the Indian state of Gujarat from February to May 2002 in which reportedly as many as 2,000 Muslims were killed, thousands raped, and over 200,000 displaced."

"Numerous reports, including reports of official bodies of the government of India, have documented the role of Modi's state government in the planning and execution of the violence, and the failure to hold perpetrators accountable," it said.

More at - http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/jul/09modi.htm

[bhavnasingh20]

well i think it is surely justified...
even though hes a CM wht he did during gujarat riots was inhuman.....

n btw if u remember correctly...when u had come after seeing parzania u only had said na...ki modi is such a pathetic character....

then y r u askin now if its justified or not !!!!!!!

[desijat]

I did say so but he is an elected CM of India.... and having that post i do not think such a denial is justified.

[bhavnasingh20]

yes he is an elected CM of India but tht doesnt mean respect shud b given to him automatically....

he shud justify tht respect too....which hes not able to do....

so i think its ok wht US is doin

[rajivsp]

ok 2000 people killed due to modi.
how many killed and displaced in Iraq and for what?
who is responsible?
saddam or bush?

if India would be as powerful as us, it was possible to refuse to give visa to modi?

Power game...............................

[gaganjat]

from an individual to a country, everything is a power game.

the way u give an excuse to do something makes it right or wrong.

Indian politicians know how to rob their own people but they dont stand anywhere at international level. and they deserve it !

they cant even speak properly.their speaches are full of philosophy and useless material. look at them when they meet with politicians at international level. they look like 'bhikhari'.

Countries like US atleast doesnt rob their own citizens they do it with others and that needs courage.

The world is still the same as it used to be few hundred years ago. the way things are done are changed. The end result is the same.

[rajivsp]

It is different issue whether our politician are robbing their own people or they can not speak properly........

And modi is guilty for gujrat riots or not it is our internal affair and no country has right to interfere in it. Only India law can take decision on this. If he elected as the cm of a state and still he is not getting visa, then this should become our national issue and PM,FM, president, opp. leaders.. must raise this issue in UN or in some other way.

this is the question of national pride...

do we have self respect or not.......

I dont know what was our pm said when modi didnt get visa first time......

[gaganjat]

It is different issue whether our politician are robbing their own people or they can not speak properly........



mate if u cant understand and see the relation then dont write

[rajivsp]

thanks dear, but i will be grateful if u make me understand relation....
thanks again....

[sidchhikara]

Modi gaya tel lene.
America aake kaunsa jhanda gaad lega. Ahde pahlum bhatere Gujju sein already ...
I think I would be more bothered if one of my friends or family was denied visa... they all got visas whenever they applied... who gives a crap about Modi.

If he wants to interact with gujju's in US, do video chat on yahoo.

[cooljat]

hahahahaha!! :D:D too gud n very right very right Sid bro! :p;)



Modi gaya tel lene.
America aake kaunsa jhanda gaad lega. Ahde pahlum bhatere Gujju sein already ...
I think I would be more bothered if one of my friends or family was denied visa... they all got visas whenever they applied... who gives a crap about Modi.

If he wants to interact with gujju's in US, do video chat on yahoo.

[ygulia]

Modi gaya tel lene.
America aake kaunsa jhanda gaad lega. Ahde pahlum bhatere Gujju sein already ...
I think I would be more bothered if one of my friends or family was denied visa... they all got visas whenever they applied... who gives a crap about Modi.

If he wants to interact with gujju's in US, do video chat on yahoo.

Bhai tera jawab padh ke majaa aa gaya!!!!!!!
Visa dena USA sarkar ka prerogative hai.......nahi dete......ke unki pooch pado ge..........

[sidchhikara]

hahahahaha!! :D:D too gud n very right very right Sid bro! :p;)


Bhai tera jawab padh ke majaa aa gaya!!!!!!!
Visa dena USA sarkar ka prerogative hai.......nahi dete......ke unki pooch pado ge..........

Haha... haan bhai sahi baat se. Ye susre politician mahri fikar na karte, mahre tax ke paise ne loot ke khaa jaa se.... eeb Modi ne visa na milya te gharan baithga .... visa mil jyata te faaltu mein tax ke pise ki Ticket banwata ... 5 star hotel mein rehta ... etc etc. Woh paise bhi bach gaye.

[raj2rif]

from an individual to a country, everything is a power game.

the way u give an excuse to do something makes it right or wrong.

Indian politicians know how to rob their own people but they dont stand anywhere at international level. and they deserve it !

they cant even speak properly.their speaches are full of philosophy and useless material. look at them when they meet with politicians at international level. they look like 'bhikhari'.

Countries like US atleast doesnt rob their own citizens they do it with others and that needs courage.

The world is still the same as it used to be few hundred years ago. the way things are done are changed. The end result is the same.

Dear Gagan,

Countries like US atleast doesnt rob their own citizens they do it with others and that needs courage.

Is the above statement true? What about Enron scandal. The subprime mortgage industry in US? What about all the contract of oil coming to Mr. Cheney's Company? The list is too long.
How many people have died in Iraq? The performance of any military is greatly affected by the "Cause to fight for". Can any one justify the cause to fight for in Iraq? Saddam Hussain was definitely not the best of the person ruling a country, but then there are so many of them all around the world who don't deserve to be ruling.

Now let us talk about Mr. Modi. True, his role in Godhara incidents is under scanner and grey in nature. If that be so, why the law has not been ablt to prove him guilty and punish him. That is legal aspect of his role as reported by media, and as revealed by various organizations. The law in such a case should be proceeded with as speedily as possible. There is Congress government in power in center and they should have done their best to ensure that if he is guilty, he should be brought to the books.

Let us now see the Narendra Modi the CM of Gujarat. I think what I hear from people, and read about his administration, he has done a commendable job in Gujarat. If he is a good administrator he needs to be ruling and even respected. Some times one has to use the iron hand to bring the people in line in a democratic set up. Late Ch. Bansi Lal during his first term as CM of Haryana and Late Mr. Pratap Singh Cairon were some thing in similar league. Ch. Charan Singh did a good job first time when he became the CM of UP.

I think if we have a good relationship with a nation that is a democracy, they need to respect the elected leader of a friendly nation. This is specially, when the Gujarati community contributes greatly to US economy.

It might just be a good idea to feel the popularity that Mr. Modi has among the Gujarati Community in India and abroad.

[ravisheoran]

Vikas bhai
i agree with you as he is being elected infact re elected through a truly democratic process (and the process do not require any certificate from the US)
and as per the knowledge of the US officials the electoral process involve all the members of the society whether Hindu or Muslim.
So he is now the elected head of the state and the subject of the state are the people of all religions and the castes.
Despite this the other example of his acceptablity in the state is the growing economy of the state.

So how the USA can give a charactor certificate to any of the CM of Indian state.

[gaganjat]

Colonel saab ! Thanks for bringing up your doubts, let me clear them up for you in nutshell.

Scandals happens everywhere. America is no exception. So thats not a issue to discuss.

War is a business , it is to conquer or save. Why didnt India invade Afganistan /Iraq ? because India cant handle it and India is not a leader of the world anyways.

Law didnt prove Modi guilty or punish him ? well, there are lot of criminals who were not punished by law but people know they are guilty.

Popularity of someone in some community doesnt make him respectable for the whole world.

If some criminal gets elected as MLA/Mp from his area, does that mean he should be respected everywhere because of the position he holds. NO !






Dear Gagan,

Countries like US atleast doesnt rob their own citizens they do it with others and that needs courage.

Is the above statement true? What about Enron scandal. The subprime mortgage industry in US? What about all the contract of oil coming to Mr. Cheney's Company? The list is too long.
How many people have died in Iraq? The performance of any military is greatly affected by the "Cause to fight for". Can any one justify the cause to fight for in Iraq? Saddam Hussain was definitely not the best of the person ruling a country, but then there are so many of them all around the world who don't deserve to be ruling.

Now let us talk about Mr. Modi. True, his role in Godhara incidents is under scanner and grey in nature. If that be so, why the law has not been ablt to prove him guilty and punish him. That is legal aspect of his role as reported by media, and as revealed by various organizations. The law in such a case should be proceeded with as speedily as possible. There is Congress government in power in center and they should have done their best to ensure that if he is guilty, he should be brought to the books.

Let us now see the Narendra Modi the CM of Gujarat. I think what I hear from people, and read about his administration, he has done a commendable job in Gujarat. If he is a good administrator he needs to be ruling and even respected. Some times one has to use the iron hand to bring the people in line in a democratic set up. Late Ch. Bansi Lal during his first term as CM of Haryana and Late Mr. Pratap Singh Cairon were some thing in similar league. Ch. Charan Singh did a good job first time when he became the CM of UP.

I think if we have a good relationship with a nation that is a democracy, they need to respect the elected leader of a friendly nation. This is specially, when the Gujarati community contributes greatly to US economy.

It might just be a good idea to feel the popularity that Mr. Modi has among the Gujarati Community in India and abroad.

[raj2rif]

Colonel saab ! Thanks for bringing up your doubts, let me clear them up for you in nutshell.

Scandals happens everywhere. America is no exception. So thats not a issue to discuss.

War is a business , it is to conquer or save. Why didnt India invade Afganistan /Iraq ? because India cant handle it and India is not a leader of the world anyways.

Law didnt prove Modi guilty or punish him ? well, there are lot of criminals who were not punished by law but people know they are guilty.

Popularity of someone in some community doesnt make him respectable for the whole world.

If some criminal gets elected as MLA/Mp from his area, does that mean he should be respected everywhere because of the position he holds. NO !


Dear Gagan,

Thanks for the clarifications. I still would like to discuss some of the disparities.

1. You agree with me on your first statement about US Vs. India. What I have seen is that politicians and government officials are some thing similar in attitude everywhere. May be it is human nature and really does not differ where a person lives. Effectiveness of law enforcing agencies and may be social environment are the phenomenon that restricts human lust for money and power in different part of the world.

2. What does war has to do with being a leader or not being a leader. You perhaps are misjudging the efficiency and capabilities of Indian Army. Couple of years ago, the skilled Indian Pilots with their old MIGs gave scare to US Pilots with their latest state of the art fighters. It was a point of discussion in US senate as well as a point of concern. So please don't under estimate the skills and might of Indian military. Post second world war India is the only country that has created a nation "Bangladesh", that too against the odds where US was supporting Pak and Soviet Union in spite of a defense pact did not provide ammunition for our medium range artillery guns. So, you may like to reconsider your statement. I think probably Indian Army can handle the events in Iraq better than the US army, and if they get the equipment that US army has, even much better. The question is, do we have a Cause? And if we do, can it be solved diplomatically.

3. Mr. Modi's involvement in Godhara incident does not make him a normal criminal. I would say it is a political crime if proved right. If he did order the massacre then he is guilty of unbecoming of a CM or holding the public office. If he did not order it, but failed to control it, it is the case of inefficiency. Unfortunately, the first point has not been proved and for the second we don’t have a constitutional provision to prevent him from running the office. For the first issue, we have had a central government that needs to push for justice, but seems they did not do it. So, if Mr. Modi is guilty of that crime, so are others who being in power have not been able to push for justice. Committing and abating a crime have similar consequences for the society.

4. Now comparing an MLA with a CM does not look equal to me. One can become a MLA by arm twisting and flexing his/her muscles, scaring the public for voting for him/her or even booth capturing. You don’t become the CM of a state by doing so, and that too twice. Competence of Mr. Narendra Modi in administering a state is for all of us to see. I think he probably is the best CM any state currently may be having. The only other CM closer to his abilities in managing the state seems to be Mr. Khanduri of Uttaranchal Pradesh.

5. Last but not the least, we are not discussing the popularity of Mr. Modi, what we are discussing is whether or not denial of visa to an elected official of a democratic nation justified?

Last time when they denied the visa, Mr. Modi did address a huge Indian gathering in NJ live on big TV screen in a hall where over 500 people can have seated dinner. So, technology makes things easier and if he is denied the Visa again, he can still address his followers here in USA.

[ygulia]

Col Tavathia
You have given an excellent explanation to all questions.
People should understand that visa is not a right and any government is not under obligation to grant it.

[bgsingh]

Modi is really a great C.M. Despite opposition from congress and within his party he came out wiyh flying colours. He is the only C.M in India who has the guts to stand against the muslims. Did anyone said any word or showed any sympathy to the peoples killed who were burnt alive on the train. So now only the concerns of minority communities will be addressed and they will be treated as king and the majority hindus go to hell. Nobody talk about hindus and when a person like modi talk of hindutva he becomes a sore of every body eyes. Are hindus treated like a second class citizen over muslims in India just for cheap vote politics. Is there any hindu organisation which indulges in terrorism while u can find muslims figured in every terrorist activity.

[gaganjat]

Col Tavathia ji !

Thanks for detailed explanation of the points I wrote.

My touch up on the points given by u :

Point 2. I am not under estimating the power of Indian Army but yes I said India is not in a position to get into war like America (because of equipment , finance , political decision making etc).

Point 3. Modi wont get a benefit of doubt for a grant of visa (doubts as discussed by u in this point)

Point 4. Those MLA and MPs become CMs one day. People start from student politics and become PM. MPs, MLAs, CMs are comparable.

Point 5. We did discuss the popularity of Modi among gujjus in US and that visa issue was related to it somehow.

Long story short ' Modi didnt fulfill the conditions for a grant of visa'

I was discussing about position and power of a country , if Indian embassy believes that any of the American politicians doesnt fit their criterion for a grant of visa then 'India should refuse visa to those politicians'. Is it possible ? I dont think so.

World is still the same as it used to be , the way things are done and the excuses given for them are different. The end result is the same.





Dear Gagan,

Thanks for the clarifications. I still would like to discuss some of the disparities.

1. You agree with me on your first statement about US Vs. India. What I have seen is that politicians and government officials are some thing similar in attitude everywhere. May be it is human nature and really does not differ where a person lives. Effectiveness of law enforcing agencies and may be social environment are the phenomenon that restricts human lust for money and power in different part of the world.

2. What does war has to do with being a leader or not being a leader. You perhaps are misjudging the efficiency and capabilities of Indian Army. Couple of years ago, the skilled Indian Pilots with their old MIGs gave scare to US Pilots with their latest state of the art fighters. It was a point of discussion in US senate as well as a point of concern. So please don't under estimate the skills and might of Indian military. Post second world war India is the only country that has created a nation "Bangladesh", that too against the odds where US was supporting Pak and Soviet Union in spite of a defense pact did not provide ammunition for our medium range artillery guns. So, you may like to reconsider your statement. I think probably Indian Army can handle the events in Iraq better than the US army, and if they get the equipment that US army has, even much better. The question is, do we have a Cause? And if we do, can it be solved diplomatically.

3. Mr. Modi's involvement in Godhara incident does not make him a normal criminal. I would say it is a political crime if proved right. If he did order the massacre then he is guilty of unbecoming of a CM or holding the public office. If he did not order it, but failed to control it, it is the case of inefficiency. Unfortunately, the first point has not been proved and for the second we don’t have a constitutional provision to prevent him from running the office. For the first issue, we have had a central government that needs to push for justice, but seems they did not do it. So, if Mr. Modi is guilty of that crime, so are others who being in power have not been able to push for justice. Committing and abating a crime have similar consequences for the society.

4. Now comparing an MLA with a CM does not look equal to me. One can become a MLA by arm twisting and flexing his/her muscles, scaring the public for voting for him/her or even booth capturing. You don’t become the CM of a state by doing so, and that too twice. Competence of Mr. Narendra Modi in administering a state is for all of us to see. I think he probably is the best CM any state currently may be having. The only other CM closer to his abilities in managing the state seems to be Mr. Khanduri of Uttaranchal Pradesh.

5. Last but not the least, we are not discussing the popularity of Mr. Modi, what we are discussing is whether or not denial of visa to an elected official of a democratic nation justified?

Last time when they denied the visa, Mr. Modi did address a huge Indian gathering in NJ live on big TV screen in a hall where over 500 people can have seated dinner. So, technology makes things easier and if he is denied the Visa again, he can still address his followers here in USA.

[shailendra]

... One also needs to understand that if not everything than a lot in America works based on 'lobbying'... who can lobby for what, really gets their stuff done and implemented at the end...
So on the same lines if after the Gujurat riots there was a strong lobby (in conjuction with those 'sometimes idiots' Human rights groups) that was able to secure the denial of a Visa for Modi, then be sure that they are somehow still active and ensuring the status remains the same. PERIOD!

Now coming to Modi's track record, I am sorry (and I am no Human rights activist, so my apologies to the ultra senstive ones here, that may feel I am talking taboo!) but the ground reality of a much prosperous and safer Gujarat is actually very-very true!!!
That frankly means nothing in terms of him being re-elected (we all know how Bihar had Lalu for a zillion years!) but the truth is the truth, one only needs to visit the state, stay there, move around to see that all those promises are being made a reality... and I think everything said and done that gets my popularity vote.... just like we have these other discussions here going on about CM.Hooda and his son etc. etc. wouldn't you say that at least this bugger in question here is making things happen and not ensuring that his 'house' gets full of illegal kick-backs first, like so many other politicians that one can just talk about from the top of their head!?!...
Now how many other CM's can say that vote banks doesn't matter to them, that if it means internal state security needs a harsh clamp down on the anti-elements, even if that also means angering a certain minority than so be it???...

[shailendra]

...and oh, as to the question whether the visa denial is justified or not- Obviously the guy should be happy that they are actually thinking about him so much everywhere, be it his supporters (the zillion gujju-americans), or the anti-Modi lobby, or US lawmakers themselves etc!!!... and frankly I don't see him protesting about it too much in any case, obviously the guy realizes it quite well which side his bread is buttered! :rolleyes:

[fundcom]

So jats has problems with Gujjus as well along with Brahmin.

One thing I have observed on this forum is Jats does not like Hindus.

Anybody who says anything against hindus, most says it is freedome of speech and democracy etc. etc.

Wehn So called Hindus, (Some Jats may want to exclude themselves if they want) do any protest then it boils down to same old crap terminology like VHP, BJP etc.

Abbe ullo ke pathho, jub matai aur baheno ko subah hagga lagega Amarnath Yatra par ya Puri Yatra mai me to tumhara baap arrange karayega kya. If you are ethist and does not go to these places fine, lekin baki to aawaaz uthena do. Appne pav par kulhadi mat maro, Unless tomorrow you are planning to convert Muslim and You will still be Jat, which is the most stupid thing I can ever heard. It is not realistic but true.

Appnee pooch kee chinta rahati hai and vaise 24 ghanta Jat Jat karte ho.