Know your soldier

[bls31]

KNOWING A SOLDIER

1. There is NO ' Reservations "for entry into the Defence Forces & the norms of recruitment are universally much stricter than civilian counterparts.

2. Almost 70% of those enrolled as Soldiers are retired after just 17 years of service, when they are only 36 - 37 years of age & when their financial liabilities are the greatest.

3. During these 17 years, a Soldier stays away from his family for almost ALL the time. He cannot look after his family & does NOT see his children growing up.

4. During his service, a Soldier's children's education suffers greatly due to very frequent transfers & movements.

5. During these 17 years of service, a Soldier spends an average of 12 years in remote, undeveloped & inhospitable locations. This includes several years in Insurgency affected & high Altitudes areas where winter temperatures go down to Minus 50 degrees, as in SIACHIN.

6. Military life is a ' Round The Clock ' commitment; 24 hours a day, 7 days a week & 365 days in the year. For those deployed in Operational areas, there are NO Sundays, holidays or even working hours.

7. A Soldier's daily existance is extremely hard, full of perpetual danger & risks to life. Even when there is no war, more than 500 Soldiers & officers die every year fighting Counter Militancy Operations in different parts of our country.

8. The voluntary 'Code of Conduct’ of a Soldier demands of him a much higher order of Discipline & Public Behaviour.

9. Military Service entails voluntary surrender of certain Fundamental Rights like Right to Life unlike in Civil Services.

10. Military Laws are much stricter. There are NO ' rigmaroles ' in the dispensation of justice which is much faster than civil procedures.

11. Rights of a Soldier to appeal against convictions & punishments ordered by Military Courts are severely restricted.

12. A Soldier has to maintain 100% fitness all the time. Even a slight disability can render him unfit for further Military Service.

13. Every year, 5500 Soldiers are invalidated out of Service because of strict medical norms

14. There is NO provision to guarantee any second job to the soldier from the time he retires till his age of 60 years, which is the retiring age for all Non - Military Government employees.

15. On retiring, a Soldier gets a measly Pension ( For those who retired Pre- 1996 : Rs 3,764 per month and Rs 4,667/- for those who retired in and after1996) which is not even enough to subsist. The brave Army Commandos, who as part of the NSG risked their lives in terrorist attacks in Mumbai in November 2008, are destined for similar fate.
Posted without comment.
bls13

[raj2rif]

Dear Sir,

While what you have written is absolutely true, hardly any one is interested in knowing our soldiers. That is why 33 views and not even a signle comment.

On this very site I had seen people flogging soldiers if they make a mistake or the entire soldier community if one officer is found engaged in any corrupt activity.

By all means we need to root out corruption and the people who bring bad name to this elite organization. I have no sympathy for those who show cowardice or get engaged in corrupt practices.

The most important thing is the people who probably have no idea about the art of soldiering and the challenges involved in commanding the soldiers ( who get paid so miserly) in battle, are found commenting with authority as to how the army should be run.

So, please keep it to your heart and move on. I am sure, we need to keep our duty continuously with best of our abilities, without hoping for any sympathy for the thank less society that we live in. May be we must learn art of getting our rightful place in the society by fighting for it. The only problem I see that many of our senior officers do not have the will to do it for we the people trained in fighting and we can do it better than those who are writing our destiny.

[bls31]

The soldier, when he joins is prepared to die but he does not joined to die, as many seem to think.
bls31

[mukeshkumar007]

Joining defense forces is a passion not the career.. If somebody think to join defense forces as a career then he is definitely mistaken..

nd in my point of view the quality of life a soldier enjoy is above than all the luxuries of life.

[skarmveer]

I am also of the openion that they must get atleast more then the police force working in public areas and govt. arrange jobs for their rest of age if retired after 17 years.

We all civilion must pay them respect for their secrifiece but they also do their duty with full honesty because they choose force by choice.

Most of The officers of the forces are also not interested for the welfare of their soldiers, they harrase they badly why?

[bls31]

Incidentally one of the NSG , Special Action Group , who died during the seize of Taj,while rescuing the hostages was an officer LT Col Unnikrishnan.

The thread has already started drifting away from what was intended and I am forced to post some thing I had posted earlier in a diffrent forum as under:

The safety, honour and welfare of your country comes first, always and every time.
The honour, welfare and comfort of the men you command come next.
Your own ease, comfort and safety come last, always and every time.

Each and every one of us who passes out of IMA is supposed to live by what is engraved at the most prominent place in the Chetwode Hall, and most of us do.

Those who are more worried about Jawans and also more knowledgeable about them are welcome to start a fresh thread.

No one is more worried about the Jawans that the officer who command and leads them. Can an officer lead if he does not command the respect of his men. How is it that I brought out my 43 Jawans back to safety from the Jaws of Death or possiblely, worse, a stay in Chinese prisoner of war camps some where in Tibet back in 1962 as a Captain. It was only due to mutual trust and faith, belief in the leadership and the un-questionable loyalty of the Jawans. It hurts deep within, even now after 23 years of leaving army, when I read derogatory remarks about the various components of the services by those having only surface knowledge about Army, its ethos and more importantly, self esteem that each one lives by . BLS13



[

[VivekGathwala]

[quote=bls31;191558]Incidentally one of the NSG , Special Action Group , who died during the seize of Taj,while rescuing the hostages was an officer LT Col Unnikrishnan.

The thread has already started drifting away from what was intended and I am forced to post some thing I had posted earlier in a diffrent forum as under:

The safety, honour and welfare of your country comes first, always and every time.
The honour, welfare and comfort of the men you command come next.
Your own ease, comfort and safety come last, always and every time.

Each and every one of us who passes out of IMA is supposed to live by what is engraved at the most prominent place in the Chetwode Hall, and most of us do.

Those who are more worried about Jawans and also more knowledgeable about them are welcome to start a fresh thread.

No one is more worried about the Jawans that the officer who command and leads them. Can an officer lead if he does not command the respect of his men. How is it that I brought out my 43 Jawans back to safety from the Jaws of Death or possiblely, worse, a stay in Chinese prisoner of war camps some where in Tibet back in 1962 as a Captain. It was only due to mutual trust and faith, belief in the leadership and the un-questionable loyalty of the Jawans. It hurts deep within, even now after 23 years of leaving army, when I read derogatory remarks about the various components of the services by those having only surface knowledge about Army, its ethos and more importantly, self esteem that each one lives by . BLS13

you are right sir it hurts very deep .........and your words ar very much true that without respect of your men you never ever be a leader ...........you need to be loyal with them ...then they will show you there faith and trust

salute to all warriors ..........who served and who are serving for the country


Regrds

Vivek Gathwala

[sanjeev_balyan]

Incidentally one of the NSG , Special Action Group , who died during the seize of Taj,while rescuing the hostages was an officer LT Col Unnikrishnan.

The thread has already started drifting away from what was intended and I am forced to post some thing I had posted earlier in a diffrent forum as under:

The safety, honour and welfare of your country comes first, always and every time.
The honour, welfare and comfort of the men you command come next.
Your own ease, comfort and safety come last, always and every time.

Each and every one of us who passes out of IMA is supposed to live by what is engraved at the most prominent place in the Chetwode Hall, and most of us do.

Those who are more worried about Jawans and also more knowledgeable about them are welcome to start a fresh thread.

No one is more worried about the Jawans that the officer who command and leads them. Can an officer lead if he does not command the respect of his men. How is it that I brought out my 43 Jawans back to safety from the Jaws of Death or possiblely, worse, a stay in Chinese prisoner of war camps some where in Tibet back in 1962 as a Captain. It was only due to mutual trust and faith, belief in the leadership and the un-questionable loyalty of the Jawans. It hurts deep within, even now after 23 years of leaving army, when I read derogatory remarks about the various components of the services by those having only surface knowledge about Army, its ethos and more importantly, self esteem that each one lives by . BLS13



[

Sir, here everyone is free to write anything, u had started a thread earlier and finally what happened, u were forced to close that due to the same reason. who does not know the abc of Army (or Military),gives such type of comment.

[amans]

I don't know the abc of military too. But I would like to ask some questions:
1. Why do our jawans on average look not so strong compared to say American soldiers? Don't they get good food, exercise in military?
2. Why do our jawans seem to carry antiquated weaponary in general.
3. Is corruption in military/politics diverting money allocated to purchase excellent quality firearams and weaponary?
4. I read that many ammunition storage areas caught fire in not so recent years. That was loss of thousands of crores!!!! all money went up in smoke.
5. An Unrelated question:
Why do our newspapers sometimes mention the name of the caught mumbai terrorist as Mohmmed Ajmal Kasab and Mohmmed Ajmal Amir Iman?
If the cops cannot even get the name correct then what can they get right?

[devdahiya]

I went to Army as an apprentice and became an officer with hard work,zeal and by the grace of God.I have seen Army life for 31 years(almost 50%of my life span).I find it funny when some people out here say things out of their nuts.The relations between a soldier and an officer had been and are excellent.An officer spares no effort(odd exception may be there if that officer has become a pig and has forgotten the oath he took while passing out of the academy) in looking after his jawans because that is what gives him izzat and satisfaction.Army is a well nit family and only those who live in it can understand the concept.Even today when this country is eaten by so many bugs,Defence forces still remain. the most secular pillar of this nation.There are no luxuries in defence forces. If some wrong notion circulates in some one's head please throw it else go and serve there for a few months and you will know...how luxurious is that life.


Yes no one invites people to defence forces but assuming that it is all DESHBHKTI will be a foolish thing.Its a mix of both....ROZI-ROTI and a little izzat.Its all volunteer but still noble as protecting the motherland from enemy had been that way across the globe.


Coming to the life of a soldier.....It is tough and challenging.Life out there CAN NOT BE the bad of roses as the organization is designed and laid out in a certain manner where one can not take an individualistic approach to make himself comfortable as sword of accountability hangs on one's head each second.There is no department in this country where accountability is so stringent and that black sheep are spotted and dealt with by fastest means.ARMY ACT(serve and know) is good enough to send chill to the spine.....It keeps all ranks on toes all the time.So life is really tough and purposeful.Yes there is brotherhood,comradeship and sacrificing attitudes as FAUZZIS follow only one DHARMA and that is FAUZZI BHAICHARA.......no cast,no reed,no religion is bigger than that code of conduct.



I was,I am,And i will ever be in awe of this organization which kicked me to train and shape as a useful citizen of our country and i can say with complete wisdom at my disposal that an ARMY MAN is still a noblest soul with complete loyalty to the mother land.And yes his life is tough,Demanding and challenging....yet very noble.

[sanjeev_balyan]

I don't know the abc of military too. But I would like to ask some questions:
1. Why do our jawans on average look not so strong compared to say American soldiers? Don't they get good food, exercise in military?

2. Why do our jawans seem to carry antiquated weaponary in general.
3. Is corruption in military/politics diverting money allocated to purchase excellent quality firearams and weaponary?
4. I read that many ammunition storage areas caught fire in not so recent years. That was loss of thousands of crores!!!! all money went up in smoke.
5. An Unrelated question:
Why do our newspapers sometimes mention the name of the caught mumbai terrorist as Mohmmed Ajmal Kasab and Mohmmed Ajmal Amir Iman?
If the cops cannot even get the name correct then what can they get right?

Hooda Ji
I don’t know whether u r a US born jat or an Indian born one. This is not the food, which decides the physique of a person. It is race of the person. In India Army itself, u see the difference of general physique of the jawans of a JAT/SIKH/RAJPUT regiments and other regiments especially southern Indian oriented.
U r comparing India with US, US expenditure on Defence is USD 711,000,000,000 per annum in comparison of Indian expenditure USD 26,500,000,000. Almost 27 times , can u imagine that our firearms will be equal to US.
Ya corruption, lacking in good decision making while purchasing of weapons and other such points are there and our politicians are more responsible for that. Continuous effort is reqd to make transparent. We are optimistic and situation will beimprved
Do u think that terrorist will come here with unique identity, they have multiple names. After clear investigation only the actual name comes up.

[bls31]

Gallant Soldiers die differently!




By Karan Kharb

It is often said that in democracies people get the government they deserve. What is even truer is that they also get the quality of Security they deserve. Is there a difference in 'loss' and 'sacrifice'; 'sympathy' and 'pride'; 'innocence' and 'valour'? We all know there is a qualitative difference and the value of 'commission or omission' in performance becomes vivid and clear in events involving high risks. There should therefore be an appropriate qualitative difference in the Nation's way of conveying its gratitude or sympathy through grant of honours and awards for the sacrifices and assistance to bereaved families.

Here are a few points to mull over:-

1. Innocent Casualties: Hemant Karkare and his 'Quick Reaction Team' of ATS encounter experts - 8 of them in a police Qualis - were surprised, waylaid and butchered without being allowed to use their weapons by two terrorists on prowl in Mumbai on 26 November.


In this case Hemant Karkare and his team were not aware of the danger lurking on them and therefore they were surprised.
Their lack of training did not allow them to anticipate and react with operational swiftness.
The poor quality of weapons could be questioned only if any of them had tried to use whatever they had. Going by their stance, it was unlikely that they would have used MP-5 or AK-47 even if they had these weapons on them.
Prior to commencing their move, the leader had apparently not carried out analysis of the situation at hand; no quick plans or operational drills seemed to exist; no instructions passed; no contingencies visualized.
Unfortunately they do not appear to have been vigilant on their way. Given the situation they were reacting to, any professional police officer would be prying for tell-tail signs or traces of the terrorists loitering in the town.
Much like the hapless unfortunate 187 civilians, they fell to terror bullets most innocently. They deserve our deep sympathy and heartfelt condolences.
Whereas there is a crescendo in media hype about their heroism, not a word has been said by anyone about how they 'fought heroically.' Sorry to state the harsh truth that they fell due to their inaction and inadequacy of combat readiness.

We pray to God to bestow eternal peace upon them and grant fortitude to the bereaved families they have left behind. Their families, friends and everyone who knew them shall reminisce their gentleness with fondness! They deserve our care and compassion. Hopefully, correct lessons will be subsequently learnt after the Mumbai Police carry out a dispassionate case study of the happenings.

2. Unsung Heroes still languish: Capt AK Singh, a daring young officer of 51 Special Action Group (NSG), led his team into the Oberoi Hotel. He zeroed on to a room at 18th Floor from where the terrorists were throwing grenades. He closed in towards them risking his life without firing to avoid killing innocent occupants, if any and, after making sure there were only one or two terrorists in the room, he kicked open the door and lobbed a grenade. Almost simultaneously, the other terrorist threw a grenade that came in the way of AK Singh charging in to kill or capture the surviving terrorist. The hostile grenade burst almost in the face of the Commando Captain giving him multiple injuries. He fell unconscious but not before wiping out the terrorist. A number of splinters have been taken out of his body by the doctors of 'Bombay Hospital' but they could not save his left eye through which a splinter tore through to embed itself deep inside. No TV channel, no newspaper reporter, no politician, no Shiv Sena………. Not anyone even from the Oberoi Hotel management has had the courtesy to visit this real hero who dared and indulged in deadly duel and combat killing the deadly killers.

3. Supreme Sacrifice through Exceptional Valour: Major Sandeep Unnikrishnan arrived with his team at the most crucial site where the savage bloodbath was already on. Unlike Hemant Karkare, Sandeep was fully conscious and aware of the magnitude of danger to the innocent civilians entrapped inside and to himself.


He knew where the terrorists were, how much damage they had already caused and what devastating potential and unhindered shooting spree they were on.
Like a professional, he quickly studied and analysed the situation and visualising the gravity of the risk involved, he ordered his team not to come forward until he silenced the terrorist shooting from behind cover.
Since saving innocent lives was the most important part of his mission, he did not enjoy the freedom his opponents in shooting and bursting grenades at will. Yet he chased them.
He valiantly pursued the terrorists until he fell in the gun battle that ensued. His team quickly followed and, after some tough hide and seek drama, they neutralised both the terrorists in an engagement that saved the remaining innocent lives in the building.
Major Sandeep Unnikrishnan gave his life but saved many others. He knew what he was facing and yet he dared. This was a sacrifice with a difference which invokes not sympathy but pride and inspiration; courage and dedication; honour over safety. His death triumphed over an evil; choosing to die differently for a cause, Sandeep immortalised himself!

Major Sandeep Unikrishnan's valour will continue to inspire many soldiers, commandos, constables and civilians. We are proud of such gallant soldiers in our Special Commando Forces and our Armed Forces who always step in when those who run the administration or Prashashan routinely during happier times beat a quick retreat and become invisible leaving the police and the army to deal with the dangers. Their brief? 'Retrieve the situation and make it safe and cool enough for me to resume my bureaucratic control.' No accountability, no risk and yet all pelf and perks served on and under the table!
The upsurge of popular outrage against the politicians as a class is not misplaced. But in this rage public is missing the wood for the trees. What is role and accountability of those who call themselves CEOs of the cities, towns and districts – the magistrates, the Babus, the Brown Sahibs? They must answer some tough questions too.
The soldier today, alas, is not being treated with the love and esteem he deserves as our saviour. Sadly, quite often he is insulted – look how:-


Our media and TV viewers go euphoric over a sixer by a cricketer and eulogise him. Chief Ministers and governments lavishly shower crores of rupees on such players.
Abhinav Bindra wins a Gold Medal in Olympics and gets Rs 3 Crore plus a host of high value commercial ads and bounty rolls on booming like a snow ball.
India's economy, security or international standing is not least affected even if we lose hundreds of such medals and matches. But can we afford to lose one Kargil or Mumbai to our enemy?
Lives lost by ticket less riff-raff illegally travelling on roofs of train or in fires in illegal colonies get rewarded much in the same measure as our soldiers who sacrifice their lives fighting to save us.

Think over and compare the value of Rs 5-10 lakh for a soldier's supreme sacrifice against the most triumphant cricket player or a pigeon shooter at Olympics! Do we deserve the selfless devotion to duty and sacrifices of our gallant soldiers and commandos like Sandeep? Don't we owe our soldiers a little more love, honour and respect than we do to our sportsmen and entertainers?

Karan Kharb
Mob: 09818047092


I thought this would be of interest . 'From Report My Signals '


BLS13

[ssgoyat]

If we don't know about the abcd of Forces (military/paramilitary etc)....why don't you retiree ppls better teach us..

or better bring in some soldiers (jawans) to get the clear inside picture....we have had enough discussions with the officer lobby....let's hear from the "jawans" side...this time atleast..enough waste of time with same brainstorming sessions with you all.

rather than wasting other ppls time (sorry we have long time to retire, we're occupied..)over already discussed topics, and starting same new threads all the time...

Please get it out of your mind that we don't respect to our soldiers..:"as you might have seen in all previous thread's.."..the flooded responses of ppls.

And you don't need to find/dig this fact periodically....and reminding us of the sacrifices of the brave soldiers who lost their lives for protecting us....peoples have shown their true sympathy all the times, no need to recheck or cross verify..

"shahadat kabhi bhulayi nahi jaati uncle....aur use roj roj yaad karna bhi vaajib/mumkin nahi"

or is it related to defence officer Lt. Col Unnikrishnan's sacrifice only.....i would have deligted if you had spared some time to google out the list of all those brave officers and jawans (whether police, NSG or army....)...please no biasing/comparisons with defence forces this time.....all sacrifices needs to be dealt equally....

or you could have started the discussion with..."it's shameful on the govt. part that so many casualities of police forces got happened just because of the ill equpped forces..with canes n WW-I type 0.303 rifle....and no protecting gear".....and discussed of how you can utilize your free retire time to make governmnt shake of these fact.

We all can unite all the retire officers and soldiers..(i guess if we start there would be thousands & lakhs)....and form an umbrella body..(offcourse you all have had leadership qualities and you all had proven it in your times...so it won't be a much difficuilt tasks...and start an awakening process by combining civlians as well....and prepare stratergies to deal with the in efficient goverment and it's policies...

I never heard of any retire defence ppls forming such groups.....and rather i always see them cribbing and cribbing only & making mockery of the system and hoping for some miracle... cribbing right from the "rikshawalla, sabji walla, autowalla ....to the trains...roads..buses...governments...politicians etc..".........why don't you all stand united and use the same old fire in you for some constructive purpose..

or are you only meant to attend the cocktails parties of the regiments you had served...(i guess ...NOT)

I never see any good leader from you ppls joining politics and working against the system to rectify it...why.???...though ppls who retire from short service commisions after rendering services in just 5~10 years, rather move it to look for a gloomy corporate world ?

Please invest your free retiree time for some fruitful and constructive discussions.....like we all would have deligted to if you discussed the SOLUTIONS in your points in post 1....rather than talking of PROBLEMS only...and what efforts you had done in YOUR TIMES.


I too could have given strong arguments with many of your points listed in your post one..

But would that be fruitful?? sorry, no more wasting time on discussing problems only...as the same has been discussed many a times....with no output.....

Why we always see the JL's retired defence lobby talking of problems only and their condemns..........

or is it always related to...
the same thread ..."why do i still serve the army"....and you feel stupid about it (offcourse NOT).....and disscussing the problems, which discourages young generations from joining it.

Dear JL Defence lobby.
You ppls are the BRAND EMBASSDORS of the Elite forces....mention the list of acheivemnts, and the glorios past attached with it....and not the problems and hardships....to defame it....and spoiling the BRAND IMAGE...and making a wrong impression as not to join it...."it pays less/it sucks"

Always remember the punchline...
"DO YOU HAVE IT IN YOU"....

I guess you still have it in you....so start something constructively with positive frame of mind & strong zeal

.................................................. .................................................. ....
Now pls don't start any useless debates with me..

rather you can get it locked...that seems a good option...it really worked last time...:p

[ssgoyat]

i started my above post after Mr. Sanjeev Balyan's post..
and when i posted it, i see brig. uncle's post...before me...(probably uncle would have seen me writing in the thread "know your soldier"......using "who's Online tab of JL.."...:)


thanks for your this post....thanks for the googling..,,but mere copy paste is not a good idea......pour in your thoughts as well..

[devdahiya]

I find no difference in a jawan and an officer...both are soldiers and both do their bit.

[sanjeev_balyan]

Dear Sir,
The most important thing is the people who probably have no idea about the art of soldiering and the challenges involved in commanding the soldiers ( who get paid so miserly) in battle, are found commenting with authority as to how the army should be run.

So, please keep it to your heart and move on.

Sir, Yr suggestion is absolutely correct. “keep it to your heart and move on” I believe, JL is not the correct forum to discuss this.

[raj2rif]

I find no difference in a jawan and an officer...both are soldiers and both do their bit.

Dear Dahiya Sahab,

I agree, that there is no difference as far as a sacrifice is concerned. Both perform their duty with honesty, and more than nation love and IZZAT of their unit. For when in an Infantry Battalion, the IZZAT of the battalion is supreem. It is precisely we have those famous Battle Cries.

Field Martial Sir, William Slim has analyzed the difference between a soldier and an officer in most simple manner in his world famous book "Defeat into Victory".

The difference is:

For a soldier, it really does not matter whether an action results in defeat or victory, he was given a task to fire a few rounds at a particular target which he does dutifully, but for an officer if he has not won, he has failed in his duties.

Now come to think of it. The officer could be any one, starting from the Non Commissioned officer commanding a section (whom most people still equate with Jawans) to a General commanding an Army.
It is the accountability that separates an officer from a Jawan/Soldier as we define it.

A little example of my memories. When I joined my battalion on commission, I ran my first two mile run in an administrative inspection. I had just come back after doing well on Commando Course, and finished first in the battalion, with best runner trailing almost 200 yards. The brigade commander watching picked me up for Bde Cross Country Team. We used to practice in the morning about 20 kms and same in the evening. After practice all the Jawans used to go and rest and I had to dress up and be in the training area, or performing all the duties a Junior Most officer in the Battalion performs in a peace stattion. Honestly, some times I used to think that it might have been better if I was a Jawan. But my then company commander once told me that, you pay to be an officer, and that is what the difference is, "Accountability", and you are expected to do more than your jawans.

[devdahiya]

Sir you got me wrong.What i meant was from the point of view of environment and the kind of life they lead while in a unit.Otherwise Officer's responsibility,his motivation,his sacrificing abilities,his maturity,his understanding of a problem and execution are all different.Who knows it better than you and me.What i meant was that officers never discriminate...they keep their jawans very close tho their hearts.

[bls31]

It is not goggled, but from a site of the veterans, where a battle is being fought for the retirees directly and indirectly for others.

If I post some thing, from the site, for the information of our friends of Jatland without paraphrasing or changing a few punctuation marks it is still in-phase with my view on the subject and save me the trouble of rewriting the same.

My experience in life has been that most us refuse to believe that they are going to retire on day irrespective of the profession they are in; even politicians retire one day. Sadly even parents are made to retire when they become redundant in the eyes of their children. Remember Munna Bhai.

Unfortunately, till that fateful day, those still in the harness have no sympathy for the members of the retiree’s club which they are ultimately destined to join. And it is too late to do some thing for the members.

Retirement can be extremely traumatic for those who have not developed other interests to cope with and fill the vacuum in the Nine to Five dreaded period now faced every day .
I retired as a Brigadier at the old age of fifty four with a basic salary of Rs 2500/- Now running seventy eight, I have already written two books, dabble in water-colour, use my camcorder often and am an avid still photographer, I have recently acquired a SLR (single lens reflex camera) and am exited to play with it.

With all that I still find time to visit Jatland, and of and on try to share my views with friends.

Every one has a right to express his/her views. However, there is a danger that a strongly worded comment on some one’s ‘Post’ may prompt the person to quit the site. May we ponder as to whose loss it will ultimately be. Not of the person but the vast majority of Jatlanders.

bls13

[devdahiya]

BLS sir, we are indeed fortunate to have you around and indeed it will be the loss of this portal and many sensible people if you decide to call it a day.It will be an immense loss to every sensible member out here.Please do not mind some irresponsible and unwanted statements made by some immature people....they will learn as LIFE TEACHES EVERY ONE IN A NATURAL WAY(my signature)....Don't be emotional sir....there are people who understand every thing and would love to see you around.

[rajpawariya]

Again same matter under different topic. Whenever Defence officer start a thread, it is for boosting his latent ego. Uncle Ji, how you forgotten sacrifice of Hav Gajendra Singh, while mentioning Maj Unni and Capt AK Singh. It is not your fault, it has got ingrained in psychy of Defence Officers to ignore PBORs and project himself and his clan. The site "Report my blog" is site dedicated to Defence officers only.This "Me First" attitude of officers is jeopardising interests of All Fauzi's. It hurts when some people think that those who are countering their view point, do not have knowledge about defence. It is ridiculous. Dear I am writting at various forums about OROP, Lt Col Pay, Sgt Pay and parity between pay of Sub Maj vis-a-vis Lt.( Sub and Sub Maj should have been placed in PB-3). I hope that we will fight for our just rights unitedly, leaving behind superiority complexes.

[raj2rif]

If we don't know about the abcd of Forces (military/paramilitary etc)....why don't you retiree ppls better teach us..

Dear Mr. Goayt,
I am replying your post because of the sentence above. I have a few suggestions if you may like to consider. Actually, even before reading your post (and I did not see you on Jatland Forum that you are writing some thing, I swear if you believe me) I was writing some thing of my experience about life of a soldier, how it develops, what the officer - men relationship develops, national security etc. But it is a wast subject and is going to take a lot of time for me to write and space on this website to put it across. So we probably have to wait for that. Interestingly, even though I retired from military about 10 years ago, I am still a full time worker, apart from the time I need for my obligations to help the Indian Community in General and Jat community in particular in the area that I live in.

I read your last line, not to generate a debate on your comments, for I respect that to the core of my heart. The problem is your first line and last line contradict each other, and hence the confusion in my mind about which one to follow. I have chosen the first one, for that is our obligation to our future generations. [/quote]


or better bring in some soldiers (jawans) to get the clear inside picture....we have had enough discussions with the officer lobby....let's hear from the "jawans" side...this time atleast..enough waste of time with same brainstorming sessions with you all.

rather than wasting other ppls time (sorry we have long time to retire, we're occupied..)over already discussed topics, and starting same new threads all the time...
This is a good idea to have views of our Jawans also. How about helping the community to bring some one from your side to help every one else understand a "Jawan's" view.

I appreciate you writing this post inspite of your busy schedule. My suggestion would be:
1. It is not mendatory for all of us to read all the posts. So you could be extremely selective, about reading and posting your replies depending upon your interests and availability of time.
2. If Brig's posts are repetitive and boring, you really don't have to read them. I don't think jatland.com membership agreement says that.
3. Your position to guide memebers about what they should write and what they should not.

a. If you are a moderator of this site, you should ban a particular post that is not in public interests.

b. If you are the owner of this site, then you should ban the membership of the person who is not following the norms of this site.

c. If you are one of the members like most of us, then it might be a good idea either to read a post, or comment on it and if it looks like repetitive, and useless then ignore it.

These are just a few suggestions from the teaching point of view since you had asked for it and not to generate a debate on this issue. [/quote]

to be contd.

[raj2rif]

[/quote]Please get it out of your mind that we don't respect to our soldiers..:"as you might have seen in all previous thread's.."..the flooded responses of ppls.[/quote]

Actually, we the defense services officers, don't really expect or demand the rest of the nation to "Respect our Soldiers", for that is their choice. But if you read the second line what Brig has written about the oath an officer takes, it is our responsibility to respect our soldiers and repetitive posts that Brig is writing on soldiers is purely due to his commitment to that "Second Line" in that oath.

[/quote] And you don't need to find/dig this fact periodically....and reminding us of the sacrifices of the brave soldiers who lost their lives for protecting us....peoples have shown their true sympathy all the times, no need to recheck or cross verify..

"shahadat kabhi bhulayi nahi jaati uncle....aur use roj roj yaad karna bhi vaajib/mumkin nahi"[/quote]

Why do we celebrate the various days of history, be it Gandhi's Birth Day, Bhagat Singh's shahadat day or Birth Day etc? It is basically to remind the future generation about the sacrifices made by those great people, the fruits of which we are enjoying today, so that we understand the importance of it and do our best to preserve it.


[/quote]

[/quote]or is it related to defence officer Lt. Col Unnikrishnan's sacrifice only.....i would have deligted if you had spared some time to google out the list of all those brave officers and jawans (whether police, NSG or army....)...please no biasing/comparisons with defence forces this time.....all sacrifices needs to be dealt equally....[/quote]

I think what a person is writing and how much time he/she can devote to it should be left to that person alone. Being retired does not mean the person does not have any thing to do. At Brig's age, it takes a lot of effort to do what he is doing. I am sure many of us at that age would not be able to do even that much.

[/quote]or you could have started the discussion with..."it's shameful on the govt. part that so many casualities of police forces got happened just because of the ill equpped forces..with canes n WW-I type 0.303 rifle....and no protecting gear".....and discussed of how you can utilize your free retire time to make governmnt shake of these fact.[/quote]

In your next post you have mentioned that you wanted to write this post, but Brig saw you and did it before you could do it. What is bothering me is that you were about to do the same thing ( I hope I am understanding correctly) that you did not like Brig doing.

Regarding starting a discussion on the subject suggested, I personally any one of us including you could start that discussion. The subject is good and would generate valuable discussion.

[/quote]

We all can unite all the retire officers and soldiers..(i guess if we start there would be thousands & lakhs)....and form an umbrella body..(offcourse you all have had leadership qualities and you all had proven it in your times...so it won't be a much difficuilt tasks...and start an awakening process by combining civlians as well....and prepare stratergies to deal with the in efficient goverment and it's policies...

I never heard of any retire defence ppls forming such groups.....and rather i always see them cribbing and cribbing only & making mockery of the system and hoping for some miracle... cribbing right from the "rikshawalla, sabji walla, autowalla ....to the trains...roads..buses...governments...politicians etc..".........why don't you all stand united and use the same old fire in you for some constructive purpose..

or are you only meant to attend the cocktails parties of the regiments you had served...(i guess ...NOT)[/quote]

On this forum itself I have seen non defense personal cribbing about all these things too. Then why crib against defense people for their cribbing?

Regarding your comments above on Cocktail parties. Since your brother is an Army officer, you might have either attended one of such parties or must have seen him doing so, while you were visiting him ( I am assuming and I might be pretty wrong in it, but since you are mentioning it so convincingly, I take it that you do have a first hand knowledge of it). Well, that is not the only thing Defense Officers do. Most poeple don't have access to the remote places these people live. Some times in sub zero temperatures. And when time comes to going out on a patrol and laying an ambush, if a jawan is not feeling good, he might opt out or be replaced by another, but the officers being so less, has to do it even if he is not fully physically fit to do so. There is a lot more than those cocktail parties and many of them are attended by officers as an obligation to the organization rather than personal preferrence.

[raj2rif]

[/quote]I never see any good leader from you ppls joining politics and working against the system to rectify it...why.???...though ppls who retire from short service commisions after rendering services in just 5~10 years, rather move it to look for a gloomy corporate world ?

Please invest your free retiree time for some fruitful and constructive discussions.....like we all would have deligted to if you discussed the SOLUTIONS in your points in post 1....rather than talking of PROBLEMS only...and what efforts you had done in YOUR TIMES.


I too could have given strong arguments with many of your points listed in your post one..

But would that be fruitful?? sorry, no more wasting time on discussing problems only...as the same has been discussed many a times....with no output.....

Why we always see the JL's retired defence lobby talking of problems only and their condemns..........

or is it always related to...
the same thread ..."why do i still serve the army"....and you feel stupid about it (offcourse NOT).....and disscussing the problems, which discourages young generations from joining it.

Dear JL Defence lobby.
You ppls are the BRAND EMBASSDORS of the Elite forces....mention the list of acheivemnts, and the glorios past attached with it....and not the problems and hardships....to defame it....and spoiling the BRAND IMAGE...and making a wrong impression as not to join it...."it pays less/it sucks"

Always remember the punchline...
"DO YOU HAVE IT IN YOU"....

I guess you still have it in you....so start something constructively with positive frame of mind & strong zeal

.................................................. .................................................. ....
Now pls don't start any useless debates with me..

rather you can get it locked...that seems a good option...it really worked last time...:p[/quote]

I am not sure if I have been able to do justice to the points raised by you. If I have not been able to, then I extend my apologies for that. After all we all are human beings and have our limitations.

As the time goes by, I would try and do my best to help the people understand the complex subject of officer-men relationship in Defense Services as I have seen them.

Till then bye.

[devdahiya]

Again same matter under different topic. Whenever Defence officer start a thread, it is for boosting his latent ego. Uncle Ji, how you forgotten sacrifice of Hav Gajendra Singh, while mentioning Maj Unni and Capt AK Singh. It is not your fault, it has got ingrained in psychy of Defence Officers to ignore PBORs and project himself and his clan. The site "Report my blog" is site dedicated to Defence officers only.This "Me First" attitude of officers is jeopardising interests of All Fauzi's. It hurts when some people think that those who are countering their view point, do not have knowledge about defence. It is ridiculous. Dear I am writting at various forums about OROP, Lt Col Pay, Sgt Pay and parity between pay of Sub Maj vis-a-vis Lt.( Sub and Sub Maj should have been placed in PB-3). I hope that we will fight for our just rights unitedly, leaving behind superiority complexes.



What are you trying to say Mr Pawaria? Poor knowledge of things and poor take this.Why not place a recruit in HIG?Why not make Sonia Gandhi a clerk and a clerk Chair person of Congress?

[cooljat]

More than 100% agreed here, Army is Sheer Passion and above all Career Goals, you're seriously committing a serious mistake if you're joining army just for the career! If you have that in you, passion to live on the edge, luving the hard life and utmost true luv for the motherland then you should go for it otherwise there're many lucrative careers in front of you !

Joining defense forces is a passion not the career.. If somebody think to join defense forces as a career then he is definitely mistaken..


You're totally mistaken Raj, who said you that JCO and PBORs are being ignored ... I never felt so .. they're always treated equally for their valors .. don't Spihais earn gallantry medals like PVC, MVC for their sacrifice and heroic acts, they do and they are equally saluted ... The basic difference always will be there in their posts. Its everywhere in every single departments, organization. So its totally worthless to compare their posts cuz the fundamental difference always be there and it should be. But when it comes to awarding and valuing their supreme sacrifices they all are admired same and thats the best thing I like about Army !


Again same matter under different topic. Whenever Defence officer start a thread, it is for boosting his latent ego. Uncle Ji, how you forgotten sacrifice of Hav Gajendra Singh, while mentioning Maj Unni and Capt AK Singh. It is not your fault, it has got ingrained in psychy of Defence Officers to ignore PBORs and project himself and his clan. The site "Report my blog" is site dedicated to Defence officers only.This "Me First" attitude of officers is jeopardising interests of All Fauzi's. It hurts when some people think that those who are countering their view point, do not have knowledge about defence. It is ridiculous. Dear I am writting at various forums about OROP, Lt Col Pay, Sgt Pay and parity between pay of Sub Maj vis-a-vis Lt.( Sub and Sub Maj should have been placed in PB-3). I hope that we will fight for our just rights unitedly, leaving behind superiority complexes.


Cheers!

Rock on
Jit

[ssgoyat]

Again same matter under different topic. Whenever Defence officer start a thread, it is for boosting his latent ego. Uncle Ji, how you forgotten sacrifice of Hav Gajendra Singh, while mentioning Maj Unni and Capt AK Singh. It is not your fault, it has got ingrained in psychy of Defence Officers to ignore PBORs and project himself and his clan. The site "Report my blog" is site dedicated to Defence officers only.This "Me First" attitude of officers is jeopardising interests of All Fauzi's. It hurts when some people think that those who are countering their view point, do not have knowledge about defence. It is ridiculous. Dear I am writting at various forums about OROP, Lt Col Pay, Sgt Pay and parity between pay of Sub Maj vis-a-vis Lt.( Sub and Sub Maj should have been placed in PB-3). I hope that we will fight for our just rights unitedly, leaving behind superiority complexes.

eggzactly......

true word by word...

[devdahiya]

I never see any good leader from you ppls joining politics and working against the system to rectify it...why.???...though ppls who retire from short service commisions after rendering services in just 5~10 years, rather move it to look for a gloomy corporate world ?

Please invest your free retiree time for some fruitful and constructive discussions.....like we all would have deligted to if you discussed the SOLUTIONS in your points in post 1....rather than talking of PROBLEMS only...and what efforts you had done in YOUR TIMES.


I too could have given strong arguments with many of your points listed in your post one..

But would that be fruitful?? sorry, no more wasting time on discussing problems only...as the same has been discussed many a times....with no output.....

Why we always see the JL's retired defence lobby talking of problems only and their condemns..........

or is it always related to...
the same thread ..."why do i still serve the army"....and you feel stupid about it (offcourse NOT).....and disscussing the problems, which discourages young generations from joining it.

Dear JL Defence lobby.
You ppls are the BRAND EMBASSDORS of the Elite forces....mention the list of acheivemnts, and the glorios past attached with it....and not the problems and hardships....to defame it....and spoiling the BRAND IMAGE...and making a wrong impression as not to join it...."it pays less/it sucks"

Always remember the punchline...
"DO YOU HAVE IT IN YOU"....

I guess you still have it in you....so start something constructively with positive frame of mind & strong zeal

.................................................. .................................................. ....
Now pls don't start any useless debates with me..

rather you can get it locked...that seems a good option...it really worked last time...:p[/quote]

I am not sure if I have been able to do justice to the points raised by you. If I have not been able to, then I extend my apologies for that. After all we all are human beings and have our limitations.

As the time goes by, I would try and do my best to help the people understand the complex subject of officer-men relationship in Defense Services as I have seen them.

Till then bye.[/QUOTE]




You are ReyeT.."LETTER BY LETTER"

[Fateh]

Dear brother, ss goyat, I hope you got proper reply & must be happy. However, I would like to add only few points for your cool consideration please. Trust me I have nothing against you or any one & I mean no disrespect to you or any one else. Being from the same community, being members of same forum & being elder to you, I thougth to request you to read again the thread from the start & various replies to your points, bit peacefully & with positive mind. Also consider my poits in the same manner.
1. please be polite in your language & specially replying such a elderly person.
2. Respected Brigadier has started the thread for the benfit of those who dont/know less about defence personnel & their life there.
3. Since defence services have been second important profession jats, thus relevance & importance of the toppic cannot be denied.
4. Ifyour lordship, knows about the subject, fully satisfied with the knowledge you have & donot want to learn more or share your knowledge with other brothers, in that case please follow the guidelines & advise given by respected col tavathia sir.

Bhai Raj Pawariya, I also request you, not to base your openion on personal experience alone. The situation of officer jawan relationship is not as bad as you believe.
Regards Jai Jawan Jat Balwan

[cooljat]

Goyat, I just don't agree ! period.
eggzactly......

true word by word...

[raj2rif]

Again same matter under different topic. Whenever Defence officer start a thread, it is for boosting his latent ego. Uncle Ji, how you forgotten sacrifice of Hav Gajendra Singh, while mentioning Maj Unni and Capt AK Singh. It is not your fault, it has got ingrained in psychy of Defence Officers to ignore PBORs and project himself and his clan. The site "Report my blog" is site dedicated to Defence officers only.This "Me First" attitude of officers is jeopardising interests of All Fauzi's. It hurts when some people think that those who are countering their view point, do not have knowledge about defence. It is ridiculous. Dear I am writting at various forums about OROP, Lt Col Pay, Sgt Pay and parity between pay of Sub Maj vis-a-vis Lt.( Sub and Sub Maj should have been placed in PB-3). I hope that we will fight for our just rights unitedly, leaving behind superiority complexes.

Dear Mr. Pawaria,

It is nice to learn about your passionate approach to help the soldiers below officers rank of the Indian Armed Forces.

I would suggest, rather than having a dig at some one who is writing about officers only, it might be a good idea for your to educate all of us about your views on PBOR's and OROP concept. Since you have been writing a lot about it, you are the right person to educate the members of this site.

Your views will help us understand the subject matter in probably much better way. What troubles me about your posts is, that you just try to criticize any one and every one writing about services, without giving your views on PBOR the cause so close to your heart.

If I may request you to please channalize your views in following manner for all of us to better understand as to how you really want to do to help the Soldiers below officers rank, since as per you all the officers of the defense services have failed to do so.

1. Your back ground knowledge of the subject?
2. Guide lines the officer cader must follow to help our soldiers.
3. Anamolies that you feel are in existence that ignor a soldier below officer rank.

And any other aspect of this subject which most officers are unable to grasp either they are too self centered or are too incompetent to address.

I would say that will help all of us and may be some of us might join in your crusade to help the Soldiers below officer rank.

[VivekGathwala]

If we don't know about the abcd of Forces (military/paramilitary etc)....why don't you retiree ppls better teach us..

or better bring in some soldiers (jawans) to get the clear inside picture....we have had enough discussions with the officer lobby....let's hear from the "jawans" side...this time atleast..enough waste of time with same brainstorming sessions with you all.

rather than wasting other ppls time (sorry we have long time to retire, we're occupied..)over already discussed topics, and starting same new threads all the time...

Please get it out of your mind that we don't respect to our soldiers..:"as you might have seen in all previous thread's.."..the flooded responses of
ppls.

And you don't need to find/dig this fact periodically....and reminding us of the sacrifices of the brave soldiers who lost their lives for protecting us....peoples have shown their true sympathy all the times, no need to recheck or cross verify..

"shahadat kabhi bhulayi nahi jaati uncle....aur use roj roj yaad karna bhi vaajib/mumkin nahi"

or is it related to defence officer Lt. Col Unnikrishnan's sacrifice only.....i would have deligted if you had spared some time to google out the list of all those brave officers and jawans (whether police, NSG or army....)...please no biasing/comparisons with defence forces this time.....all sacrifices needs to be dealt equally....

or you could have started the discussion with..."it's shameful on the govt. part that so many casualities of police forces got happened just because of the ill equpped forces..with canes n WW-I type 0.303 rifle....and no protecting gear".....and discussed of how you can utilize your free retire time to make governmnt shake of these fact.

We all can unite all the retire officers and soldiers..(i guess if we start there would be thousands & lakhs)....and form an umbrella body..(offcourse you all have had leadership qualities and you all had proven it in your times...so it won't be a much difficuilt tasks...and start an awakening process by combining civlians as well....and prepare stratergies to deal with the in efficient goverment and it's policies...

I never heard of any retire defence ppls forming such groups.....and rather i always see them cribbing and cribbing only & making mockery of the system and hoping for some miracle... cribbing right from the "rikshawalla, sabji walla, autowalla ....to the trains...roads..buses...governments...politicians etc..".........why don't you all stand united and use the same old fire in you for some constructive purpose..

or are you only meant to attend the cocktails parties of the regiments you had served...(i guess ...NOT)

I never see any good leader from you ppls joining politics and working against the system to rectify it...why.???...though ppls who retire from short service commisions after rendering services in just 5~10 years, rather move it to look for a gloomy corporate world ?

Please invest your free retiree time for some fruitful and constructive discussions.....like we all would have deligted to if you discussed the SOLUTIONS in your points in post 1....rather than talking of PROBLEMS only...and what efforts you had done in YOUR TIMES.


I too could have given strong arguments with many of your points listed in your post one..

But would that be fruitful?? sorry, no more wasting time on discussing problems only...as the same has been discussed many a times....with no output.....

Why we always see the JL's retired defence lobby talking of problems only and their condemns..........

or is it always related to...
the same thread ..."why do i still serve the army"....and you feel stupid about it (offcourse NOT).....and disscussing the problems, which discourages young generations from joining it.

Dear JL Defence lobby.
You ppls are the BRAND EMBASSDORS of the Elite forces....mention the list of acheivemnts, and the glorios past attached with it....and not the problems and hardships....to defame it....and spoiling the BRAND IMAGE...and making a wrong impression as not to join it...."it pays less/it sucks"

Always remember the punchline...
"DO YOU HAVE IT IN YOU"....

I guess you still have it in you....so start something constructively with positive frame of mind & strong zeal

.................................................. .................................................. ....
Now pls don't start any useless debates with me..

rather you can get it locked...that seems a good option...it really worked last time...:p






goyat ebke tane kite bhi jyada samjhdari ki baat likhi na to pichli be phone kiya tha ebke pethan hi aaaounga samjha

ghana over smart ar ghana gyani mat bana kar


ar faltu bat thread main likh ki koi bhi jaroorat nahi s


ya tu dhang te samajh le




Regards

Vivek Gathwala

[raj2rif]

Dear Mr. Vivek,

I don't think your post is very useful for the discussion. We all have right to our opinion and we should not make any personal attack on any one.

We are in a democratic society. We all must express ourselves freely without being vulgure, disrespectful to others and must use the parliamentry language (I am talking about the literary meaning of parliamentary language and not that our leaders might be using some time in real life).

The effort should be to make a quality point that helps in understanding the subject and progressing the discussion in the right direction.

I hope you would oblige in future.

[bls31]

The Army has Commissioned officers, Junior Commissioned Officers (JCOs in the Army) and the non commissioned officers. After that comes Jawan, in Navy sailor and in Air Force Airman.

If one dispenses with officers only Jawns will be left to plan, lead and execute the operations and at higher level advise the Government on threat assessment to the nation. The equation at MOD would then be
Jawan- Defence Secretary.

Posted in lighter vain only
bls13

[sachinb]

arre o Pawaria,,,,,what angreji you are saying by writing "Me First Attitude of Army Officers",,,,,,do you have any idea about when you say so,,,,,,when people talk your language i call them doing Pakistani Propaganda,,,,,,,,

Gentleman(??), try to see the casualty of all the wars/operations faught by Indian Army,,,,and then try to find out what is the Officers:Jawans death ratio.,,,,,pher tanne bera paatega Me First kyukar kahya karre,,,,

Colonel & Brigadier Sahab please tell this gentleman who is doing the Pakistani Propaganda about the ratio of Officers & Jawans in an Infantry battallion and the Death Ratio between Officers & Jawans during wars and LICO.

Brigadier sahab, just provide the data which i requested you and please ask the moderators to close this thread, I dont find JL to be a right plateform to discuss this issue. These people wants to harm and creat an atmosphere in the Indian Army which till now our worthy politicians have not been able to do. These people want to sow the seed of hatred among Officers & Jawans,,,,,,,Pakistani paid professionals:D ,,,

[bls31]

I agree with you and I am requesting the moderator to close this link . I will also think twice in future to start a thread on related subjects.

BRIG Lakshman Singh

[ranjitjat]

Dear All
It will help you. please read this thread Brave jats in -Jat history section.
Life of NK. Digender Kumar MAhaveer Chakar Kargil war is a living example.
Now he is very much active in Rajasthan politics. He was a independent candidate from Nim Ka Thana- Sikar District in this year Rajasthan MLA election.
No party given him ticket. His life story written in Hindi by Mr Rinwa give inside life of a soldier in Indian Army. He is from 2ND Raj RIF the BN of Brig Hoshiar Singh, Col. Virender Tevatia and my Mama Ji. This book have words of praise for our Col Tevatia Sahib.
Why not all officers and soldiers came under some one Association .
Get united of all jat officers and soldiers is a noble Idea.
We have highlighted the problems for so long.
Now Do some constructive work for our community.
To know more about Indian Army, Jat officers and soldiers
read my book- France to Kargil. History of Indian Army.

Read NK Nagender Kumar MC here
http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26144

[Samarkadian]

I agree with you and I am requesting the moderator to close this link . I will also think twice in future to start a thread on related subjects.

BRIG Lakshman Singh

People speaking against Defence and making it all monetary should understand that NO Human Organisation is untouched with corruption, be it religious , political, corporate or social.It sounds like dead Marxist and feminist shouts at every thread in the form of Soldier Vs Officers.Above all the best example is evident in nature.In nature there is no equvivalency. It would be eutopic to consider a 1oth passed person to make General and vice versa.The honour associated with dieing at border is considered greatest in human history and person accredited with salavation.When someone points fingers at other, four fingers are towards themselves indicating flaws in their own thinking.Its inside out that may be helpful otherwse argument can't win by being rude and sarcastic.

Thread is being closed at author's insistence.