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ankurc
July 21st, 2009, 11:47 PM
hie...
Is it very necessary to check for grandmother name when looking for marriage..... or it can be relaxed//....?/...

jakharanil
July 22nd, 2009, 12:07 AM
hie...
Is it very necessary to check for grandmother name when looking for marriage..... or it can be relaxed//....?/...

I think it cann't relaxed....... Bt aajkal log esse jayada importance nhi de rhe h........ Bcoz lack of the girls.

Thanks & Rgds.

Anil Jakhar
jakhar.anilk@gmail.com

navdeepbudhwar
July 22nd, 2009, 01:56 AM
in ma opinion it can't b relaxed.....
kyoki abhi tak to aisa hua nahi ti obvious hai ke aage bhi nahi hona cahiyee

aryasatyadev
July 22nd, 2009, 06:19 AM
We Jats normally exclude surnames of Self, Mother, and Paternal Grandmother while looking for suitable match.
However, recently some people are excluding grandmother's village and not Gotra itself.
This practice was adopted to keep the blood pure and to develope immune system. however in some others parts of India i.e. AP, Maharashtra etc. the marriage with maternal uncle's son/daughter is common.

satyeshwar
July 22nd, 2009, 08:13 AM
We Jats normally exclude surnames of Self, Mother, and Paternal Grandmother while looking for suitable match.
However, recently some people are excluding grandmother's village and not Gotra itself.
This practice was adopted to keep the blood pure and to develope immune system. however in some others parts of India i.e. AP, Maharashtra etc. the marriage with maternal uncle's son/daughter is common.

I have a question to ask: Since Muslims have very relaxed rules for marriage (cousins getting married etc.), shouldn't we see more immune system related issues in the Muslim community. If anyone has some scientific information to add, please inform me.
-Satyeshwar

bishanleo2001
July 22nd, 2009, 09:02 AM
I have a question to ask: Since Muslims have very relaxed rules for marriage (cousins getting married etc.), shouldn't we see more immune system related issues in the Muslim community. If anyone has some scientific information to add, please inform me.
-Satyeshwar
Satyeshwar bhaisahb, I am not sure if I am answering your question correctly or not , but could'nt stop myself to post it after reading this article...

रिश्तेदारों से शादी..न बाबा न Mar 25, 08:48 pm

लंदन। स्वस्थ और सामान्य बच्चा चाहिए? तो भूल कर भी रिश्तेदार या परिवार के किसी सदस्य से शादी न करें।

वैज्ञानिकों ने एक अध्ययन में पाया है कि रिश्तेदारों या परिवार के भीतर शादी करने से बच्चों को न सिर्फ आनुवांशिक विकार से ग्रस्त होने बल्कि उनके आसानी से संक्रमित होने का खतरा भी बढ़ जाता है।

शोधकर्ताओं ने यह निष्कर्ष गांबिया और भारतीय समुदायों के आनुवांशिक आंकड़ों के विश्लेषण के आधार पर निकाला है। वहां रिश्तेदारों और परिवार के सदस्यों के साथ विवाह का रिवाज है। कैंब्रिज यूनिवर्सिटी के अध्ययन में पाया गया कि गांबिया में जो बच्चे तपेदिक [टीबी] और हेपेटाइटिस बी से पीड़ित थे, उनमें ज्यादातर के माता-पिता शादी से पहले एक ही कुनबे के सदस्य थे। जबकि स्वस्थ बच्चों में यह संभावना अपेक्षाकृत कम पाई गई।

प्रमुख शोधकर्ता विलियम एमोस ने कहा कि संभवत: ऐसा इसलिए होता है क्योंकि एक ही कुनबे के माता-पिता के बच्चों की जीन में विविधता कम होती है। जीन में विविधता प्रतिरोधक क्षमता को बढ़ाती है। अध्ययन के निष्कर्ष विज्ञान पत्रिका 'बायलोजी लेटर्स' के ताजा अंक में प्रकाशित हुए हैं।

rakeshsehrawat
July 22nd, 2009, 09:08 AM
Problems with consanguineous marriages


BLOOD RELATED marriages are called consanguineous marriages sanguine meaning blood.
Around the globe consanguineous marriages have been practised by many societies from time immemorial. It is widely practiced in Asia, North Africa, Switzerland, Middle East, some parts of China, Japan and fishermen communities in Europe and America. One in two rural marriages in Tamil Nadu and Andhra Pradesh are consanguineous.
What type of marriages are consanguineous marriages? When you marry biologically related or blood relatives then it is consanguineous marriage. Most commonly in our part of the world, first cousins uncle's son marries auntie's daughter or vice versa.
However another type of marriage is where maternal uncle marries his niece (sister's daughter). Theoretical risk of having a genetic defect child is higher in the latter type of marriage than the former. Most of us do not even recognize the pros and cons of such marriages.
While assessing the consequence of consanguineous against non-consanguineous (non-blood related) marriages in health and disease, several scientific studies have shown that consanguinity leads to death of infants before, during or immediately after birth, increased incidence of birth defects, genetic diseases including blinding disorders, blood cancer (acute lymphocytic leukemia), breathing problems for children at birth (apnea), increased susceptibility to disease etc.
Some scientists contradict these studies and state that other biological factors could be accountable for the results and not consanguinity alone.
In our study we showed that consanguinity could increase the incidence of many blinding disorders like retinitis pigmentosa, Leber congenital amaurosis, Lawrence-Moon-Bardet-Biedl syndrome, Stargardt disease, Usher syndrome etc (Consanguinity and Ocular Genetic Diseases in South India: Analysis of a Five-year study. Community Genetics: 2002:5:180-185). Consanguinity could increase the risk of inheriting any one of the 4968 (autosomal recessive) genetic diseases that could affect any part of the body from head to foot.
Some animal studies have shown that inbreeding or consanguinity could enhance longevity. It has been proved beyond doubt that consanguineous marriages farther than second cousins would not result in major genetic diseases.
There are certain misconceptions regarding marriages amongst relatives, marriages between social relatives like wife's brother and husband's sister can get married, where there is no role for blood relationship.
Why do consanguineous marriages result in children with genetic diseases? Due to inheritance parents and children, and brothers and sisters, commonly share 50 per cent of their genetic make-up.
Similarly uncle and niece share 25 per cent and first cousins 12.5 per cent of their inherited genetic material as it originates from a common ancestor. In such situations if there are any `silent' genetic defects, then such errors manifesting as a disease in the child of a consanguineous parents is high.
Whereas, if we marry a person non-consanguineously in a random manner, then for both the partners to share the same `silent' genetic defect is extremely rare.
Hindus in northern India as a practice outlaw the consanguineous marriage by avoiding the same `gothra' or patrilineal relationship between the probable bride and the groom. In some of the western countries including the United States consanguinity closer than the first cousins are considered to be legally incest.
Historically closest consanguineous marriage was performed between brothers and sisters by the Egyptian Pharaohs to preserve the royal blood and interestingly Cleopatra was born out of such marriage. However this disgusting practice has never been duplicated anywhere else in the world. It is sad to note that many movies in Tamil Nadu and Andhra Pradesh highlight and glorify consanguinity. Evidence suggests that consanguinity does play a negative role in human health. The social benefits of consanguinity should not outweigh the biological damages; many in the community are ignorant about these facts.

This was abstract from an article.
In my personal opinion
Christians are coming in India preaching their religion and giving huge amount of money to the hindus to convert them to christinity.
Muslims are also KATTAR for their religion beliefs. Same for Sikhs. Whereever there is muslim community they construct mosque near a hindu temple what i have noticed whether it is Delhi UP Punjab or Haryana.
Hindus are the most soffesticated people who adopt changes from other religions very easily. Why we people are not following our religious beliefs?
I have heard that up to few years ago we leave gotra of our Nani also but due to this we were facing problem in marriages. So this practise is avoided. Now we are talking about grandmother's gotra.

Bhagwan Hindu ki raksha karna

ajit2009
July 22nd, 2009, 09:15 AM
Problems with consanguineous marriages


BLOOD RELATED marriages are called consanguineous marriages — sanguine meaning blood.
Around the globe consanguineous marriages have been practised by many societies from time immemorial. It is widely practiced in Asia, North Africa, Switzerland, Middle East, some parts of China, Japan and fishermen communities in Europe and America. One in two rural marriages in Tamil Nadu and Andhra Pradesh are consanguineous.
What type of marriages are consanguineous marriages? When you marry biologically related or blood relatives then it is consanguineous marriage. Most commonly in our part of the world, first cousins — uncle's son marries auntie's daughter or vice versa.
However another type of marriage is where maternal uncle marries his niece (sister's daughter). Theoretical risk of having a genetic defect child is higher in the latter type of marriage than the former. Most of us do not even recognize the pros and cons of such marriages.
While assessing the consequence of consanguineous against non-consanguineous (non-blood related) marriages in health and disease, several scientific studies have shown that consanguinity leads to death of infants before, during or immediately after birth, increased incidence of birth defects, genetic diseases including blinding disorders, blood cancer (acute lymphocytic leukemia), breathing problems for children at birth (apnea), increased susceptibility to disease etc.
Some scientists contradict these studies and state that other biological factors could be accountable for the results and not consanguinity alone.
In our study we showed that consanguinity could increase the incidence of many blinding disorders like retinitis pigmentosa, Leber congenital amaurosis, Lawrence-Moon-Bardet-Biedl syndrome, Stargardt disease, Usher syndrome etc (Consanguinity and Ocular Genetic Diseases in South India: Analysis of a Five-year study. Community Genetics: 2002:5:180-185). Consanguinity could increase the risk of inheriting any one of the 4968 (autosomal recessive) genetic diseases that could affect any part of the body from head to foot.
Some animal studies have shown that inbreeding or consanguinity could enhance longevity. It has been proved beyond doubt that consanguineous marriages farther than second cousins would not result in major genetic diseases.
There are certain misconceptions regarding marriages amongst relatives, marriages between social relatives like wife's brother and husband's sister can get married, where there is no role for blood relationship.
Why do consanguineous marriages result in children with genetic diseases? Due to inheritance parents and children, and brothers and sisters, commonly share 50 per cent of their genetic make-up.
Similarly uncle and niece share 25 per cent and first cousins 12.5 per cent of their inherited genetic material as it originates from a common ancestor. In such situations if there are any `silent' genetic defects, then such errors manifesting as a disease in the child of a consanguineous parents is high.
Whereas, if we marry a person non-consanguineously in a random manner, then for both the partners to share the same `silent' genetic defect is extremely rare.
Hindus in northern India as a practice outlaw the consanguineous marriage by avoiding the same `gothra' or patrilineal relationship between the probable bride and the groom. In some of the western countries including the United States consanguinity closer than the first cousins are considered to be legally incest.
Historically closest consanguineous marriage was performed between brothers and sisters by the Egyptian Pharaohs to preserve the royal blood and interestingly Cleopatra was born out of such marriage. However this disgusting practice has never been duplicated anywhere else in the world. It is sad to note that many movies in Tamil Nadu and Andhra Pradesh highlight and glorify consanguinity. Evidence suggests that consanguinity does play a negative role in human health. The social benefits of consanguinity should not outweigh the biological damages; many in the community are ignorant about these facts.

This was abstract from an article.
In my personal opinion
Christians are coming in India preaching their religion and giving huge amount of money to the hindus to convert them to christinity.
Muslims are also KATTAR for their religion beliefs. Same for Sikhs. Whereever there is muslim community they construct mosque near a hindu temple what i have noticed whether it is Delhi UP Punjab or Haryana.
Hindus are the most soffesticated people who adopt changes from other religions very easily. Why we people are not following our religious beliefs?
I have heard that up to few years ago we leave gotra of our Nani also but due to this we were facing problem in marriages. So this practise is avoided. Now we are talking about grandmother's gotra.

Bhagwan Hindu ki raksha karna
:rockभगवन बिचारा के करेगा ........
एक आधे का सूत तू बिठवा और के आधे का मै ,समस्या ऐसे ही हल होगी , कर के देख सहयोग , अगर कामयाब ना होज्या ते
..........कुछ हाथ - पैर ना हिलावे गा तो भगवन के करेगा ...... आज से ही कोसिस कर के देख .
अपनी कमजोरी को .......भगवन का कसूर मत बता
:rock

akshaymalik84
July 22nd, 2009, 08:17 PM
In my opinion, we do not marry in blood relation because we don't want any genetic deficiency to flow through our successors. While muslims prefer to marry in their blood relation because they don't want to spread their genetic deficiencies to third person. I may be wronge on this but i think this can be a reason.

aryasatyadev
July 22nd, 2009, 08:33 PM
The concept of immune system is a much later one, however true, if for example one of the couple have asthma, then there are 50% chances of passing it on to next generation and if the next generation again marries in the family from the asthamatic parent's side then the chances of third generation getting asthma is 75%, while as if he/she marries outside of the family the chances will be reduced to 25%.

Initially the marriages among family were very common among Hindus and Muslims alike, like I had already stated in Maharashtra and AP they are still in vouge. These marriages were alliances to keep the property in the family.


I have a question to ask: Since Muslims have very relaxed rules for marriage (cousins getting married etc.), shouldn't we see more immune system related issues in the Muslim community. If anyone has some scientific information to add, please inform me.
-Satyeshwar

sjakhars
July 22nd, 2009, 10:30 PM
In my area, we still exclude 4 gotras as self, mother, nani and dadi. I have not seen any marriage when this was not followed. I am a firm believer that we should continue this practice.


hie...
Is it very necessary to check for grandmother name when looking for marriage..... or it can be relaxed//....?/...

guliayaj100
July 22nd, 2009, 11:53 PM
Pahle nani ka gotra chhod diya. Ab dadi ka chhod rahe hain. kahte hain ke shadi me dikkat ho rahi hai. pher bi smasya door nahi hui to aage Maa ka aur pher babu ka chhodenge.
I don't think it to be a solution in the right direction

sjakhars
July 23rd, 2009, 02:52 AM
kahan ja rahe hain hum log, 4 se 3 aur 3 se 2 to ho gaye. aage kya hoga bhagwan hi jane. Jis tarah se supreme court ne kaha tha ek baa ki is desh ko to bhagwan bhi nahi bacha sakta, lagta hai hum bhu usi halat me pahunchne wale hain.


Pahle nani ka gotra chhod diya. Ab dadi ka chhod rahe hain. kahte hain ke shadi me dikkat ho rahi hai. pher bi smasya door nahi hui to aage Maa ka aur pher babu ka chhodenge.
I don't think it to be a solution in the right direction

mann123
July 23rd, 2009, 07:36 AM
Jats have more than 300 gotras then what is problem if we leave 4-5 gotra's. I believe gotra should not be a problem.

Bakee muslims have lot of genetical issues because of the marriages and there eating habbits but they don't care. Even recently they openly issued a fatwa against family planning and on one marriage, which made Central Govt even stopped talking about Family Planning. Suree ke tarah balak ho se 12-13 ek do na bhee rahwe to koe farak na padta unke.

kapdal
July 23rd, 2009, 04:28 PM
I have a question to ask: Since Muslims have very relaxed rules for marriage (cousins getting married etc.), shouldn't we see more immune system related issues in the Muslim community. If anyone has some scientific information to add, please inform me.
-Satyeshwar

Satyeshwar, many muslim populations who have been inbreeding for a long period of time, have shown a higher propensity for genetic deformities. See here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/01/world/saudi-arabia-awakes-to-the-perils-of-inbreeding.html?sec=health

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/333/7573/831

http://austrolabe.com/2006/06/06/auburn-hospital-report-on-consanguineous-marriage-amongst-muslims/

This is my understanding. Every person has 2 copies (alleles) of each gene. Only one copy decides behavior. Both parents contribute one copy each (The copy being contributed doesn't have to be the copy dominant in that parent). So two tall parents can have a short child if both of them or even one of them was carrying the copy responsible for short height and contributes that copy, which finally becomes dominant as well. During inbreeding, it becomes much more likely that people are carrying similar genes (called homozygosity). Hence the offspring is more likely to get same copies of a gene, which might cause the disorder. The percentage of likelihood depends on the extent of inbreeding in the population. Also, please note that inbreeding only increases the likelihood of a person getting same copies, and not specifically defective copies. So inbreeding can be argued for maintaining a superior gene pool (many royals do that). Indeed, inbreeding of domesticated animals with superior qualities is done to produce a population with more of the desirable characteristics. But the part of population that shows defects are culled so that they don't mate and pass on the non-desirable qualities. Same argument can be given in human population that those who have genetic disorders would either die before reproducing or not selected for mating. However, that doesn't take into account that healthy individuals can carry and pass on defective genes without themselves being affected.

The above is quite simplistic. In practise when mating happens, there is also "crossing over" of genetic material that takes place and the new allele formed is a random combination with several distinct possibilities. There is also the possibility of genetic mutation, which I guess is an unexpected change. Richard Dawkin's book "The Selfish Gene" should deal with most of these topics (I didn't go beyond first few chapters).

dahiya1683
July 23rd, 2009, 05:49 PM
Grandmother ka gotr check karna chahiye... Agar ye tradition chalta aa raha hai to isme koi burai ni hai...Par aajkal logo ko apni har parampara me burai nazar aane lagi hai... Ek to media or doosre ye so called "social worker" ... Jo bhi samazik riti riwazo ko tod de use ye hero bana dete hain...

brainspeak
July 23rd, 2009, 07:31 PM
hie...
Is it very necessary to check for grandmother name when looking for marriage..... or it can be relaxed//....?/...


bhai,

one should not exclude grndmother's gotra...but people r doing it...still there r lot of variations tht i have observed...

where the gotra is numerically larger -- like malik, sangwan , sheoran etc etc ...where people might raise objection the rule is being followed...but in case of numerically smaller ones people relax it many a times as there is no fear for a possible backlash...

but in my opinion all three should be avoided...

arvind1069
August 12th, 2009, 02:42 PM
वेद् मैं लिखा है की अपने पिता के गोत्र मैं और माँ के कुल की ६ generations मैं विवाह नहीं करना चाहिए
इसमें कही दादी के गोत्र को छोड़ने की बात नहीं आई है
and i think effect on blood purity is neglible or zero in case of marrying withni dadi aur nani gotra. its only prominent when marrying in close cousins.

raka
August 12th, 2009, 04:03 PM
jhakoiyo apni n to chhod diyo aur gotr gatr ki to dekhi ja gi ;)

raka
August 12th, 2009, 04:06 PM
वेद् मैं लिखा है की अपने पिता के गोत्र मैं और माँ के कुल की ६ generations मैं विवाह नहीं करना चाहिए
इसमें कही दादी के गोत्र को छोड़ने की बात नहीं आई है
and i think effect on blood purity is neglible or zero in case of marrying withni dadi aur nani gotra. its only prominent when marrying in close cousins.

chahal bhai taine kimme gana sedh rya s yo gotr system...
sari baat likhodi mana kare k ak ek aadhi unn a bhaichare ki bhi maan liya kare .....
baaki yeh jo bhi gotr chhodan ki baat karan laag re s maine innme kimme roll laage s ..

cooljat
August 12th, 2009, 04:24 PM
No !

Here in Rajasthan, we even leave Nani's gotra too.

Instead of 3 we leave 4 gotras, at the time of match making.

brahmtewatia
August 12th, 2009, 06:36 PM
here in rajasthan, we even leave nani's gotra too.

instead of 3 we leave 4 gotras, at the time of match making.इब समझ में आई तने कोई छोरी क्यूँकर कोन्या मिल रही.

cooljat
August 12th, 2009, 07:02 PM
.

HAHAHA :D Irony at its best! :o

गोत तो कोनी भीड़ी लेकिन गुण भी कोनी भीडे ... और अगर दोनों चीज़ क्लिअर हो ली तो फेर माथे भीड़ गए ! :(


इब समझ में आई तने कोई छोरी क्यूँकर कोन्या मिल रही.

aryasatyadev
August 12th, 2009, 09:57 PM
It is a common practice to exclude paternal grandmothers gotra, but while talking to a learned person from Hisar side, he told me that they are excluding Grandmother's gotra for match making.......
Can anybody from that area explain???

arvind1069
August 13th, 2009, 11:33 AM
chahal bhai taine kimme gana sedh rya s yo gotr system...
sari baat likhodi mana kare k ak ek aadhi unn a bhaichare ki bhi maan liya kare .....
baaki yeh jo bhi gotr chhodan ki baat karan laag re s maine innme kimme roll laage s ..

sorry i didnt understand what u wrote. can u plz write in english or proper hindi. i m not very good at haryanvi language, because language spoken in our ambala district is bit diffrent than urs.

akshaymalik84
August 13th, 2009, 12:03 PM
It is a common practice to exclude paternal grandmothers gotra, but while talking to a learned person from Hisar side, he told me that they are excluding Grandmother's gotra for match making.......
Can anybody from that area explain???

Agar dono ki Dadi ka gotra clash hota ho to chod de hain log aaj kal......baaki agar dadi ka gotra doosri side k Maa ya Pitah k gotra se clash karta hai to nahi!

drssrana2003
October 14th, 2009, 11:56 PM
Grandmother's surname(i.e. gotra)

Dear friends,
The degrees of prohibitions in matrimony is a scientific and tradiotionally fine tuned system working among the Jats and several other communities apart from the Brahmanas.These prohibitions arise out of a need to determine aSapindata of the two parties intending to rnter into a marriage agreement.At the base of sapindata is commonality of blood and kinship.The people called as and call themselves as Jats being the best exampler of the Vedic Indians have been observing the prohibitions flowing from sapindata and extending to the basic principle of bhaichara(brotherhood) either of peoximity in distance or deference to close relations otherwise not attracting any provision f the prohibitions.Four gotras on each side were among the prohibitions till the previous century. Mother's father's gotra was off the list without evidence of any Khap Panchayta having sanctioned it . The last century towards its end witnessed the slow disappearance from the list of grand mother's father's gotra. But wherever there is a direct clash (when the grandmother is alive) people do observe the prohibition.

For a detailed examination see my short article " Working of the Gotra System Among the Jats" on my blog> www.jatculture.blogspot.com (http://www.jatculture.blogspot.com)

drssrana2003
October 15th, 2009, 12:05 AM
Grandmother's surname(gotra)
Yes it is happening now.
See link> "Working of the Gotra System among the Jats" at
www.jatculture.blogspot.com (http://www.jatculture.blogspot.com)

karan
October 15th, 2009, 02:24 AM
I have a suggestion that may help to solve the problem of 4 gotra. Marry someone in completely different race. Since most of us won't marry in Muslim, Africans, East Asians, that leaves us with Latin American, and White population. Latin American girls are pretty much like our jat girls with subtle differences. I know few Jat Bhai who have consumated their marriage with white girls, one of that progeny is a football player in NFL USA. IMHO if you can't find Jat girl find a white girl but be prepared to compromise on alot of things like food habits, cultural values and beliefs, religious values or you can find girls from East Indian States like Mizoram, Arunachal, Assam, Nagaland, etc. :cool:

Samarkadian
October 15th, 2009, 01:53 PM
I have a suggestion that may help to solve the problem of 4 gotra. Marry someone in completely different race. Since most of us won't marry in Muslim, Africans, East Asians, that leaves us with Latin American, and White population. Latin American girls are pretty much like our jat girls with subtle differences. I know few Jat Bhai who have consumated their marriage with white girls, one of that progeny is a football player in NFL USA. IMHO if you can't find Jat girl find a white girl but be prepared to compromise on alot of things like food habits, cultural values and beliefs, religious values or you can find girls from East Indian States like Mizoram, Arunachal, Assam, Nagaland, etc. :cool:

Sir, I bow down in utter reverence for such a pragmatic solution.

deepshi
October 15th, 2009, 05:44 PM
Should not be relaxed
hie...
Is it very necessary to check for grandmother name when looking for marriage..... or it can be relaxed//....?/...

skdeswal
October 15th, 2009, 06:06 PM
i think it can not be relaxed. if all cancered "jatland" people will be think like that. this is not good massage for JAT.