Sorry not Hindus ...Religion of Jats

[narenderkharb]

We are not Hindus Historic declaration by Khap Panchyats
Jhajjar 2 August.



In a significant development Khap heads of various khaps from Haryana Up and Rajasthan clarified Jats are not Hindus .Speaking on this occasion veteran Jat Historian Professor Bhalle Ram Beniwal who wrote a book on Jat History clarified that we were Boddhs historically a religion destroyed by onslaught of Brahmanical Hinduism .Jats always fought against this Hinduism and became Muslim ,Sikh and even Arya Samaji in protest of this Varna Vayvastha advocating religion. When Swami Dayanand Visited Haryana and tried to bring back Jats under Hindu fold ,his move was opposed by Priests who declared Jats unfit for Thread as Holy thread is only for Divija and Jats are Adivija not twice born.

Choudhary Jile Singh Dhankhard head of Dhankhar Khap exposed design of hindutava forces when he says first Jats are called Hindus than they are called Adivaija ,which leave us to lower rank vaisha and Sudra ,Since Jats were never Vaishy so automatically becomes Sudra in Hindu fold .We have been Kashtriyas and should see game plan of Hindutava agents to degrade us.

Speaking on this occasion another historian who authored book on Jat History demanded Minority status for Jat community .He clarified since no ceremony was held to reconvert us from Buddhism we should not be treated as Hindus and Hindu laws under which Khap of Kadians is prosecuted does not apply to us.

Call it by any name Jat religion or Jatissm but we are not Hindus and our custom and traditions are different from their custom and traditions (gotra exclusion, Kareva partha etc..)explained a majority of Khap Bujjargs at this occasion.

[narenderkharb]

http://www.jansamwad.com/LatestNews.aspx?dv=Div46

[VPannu]

झज्जर के बुढया ने गर्मी सेध री से | दिमाग में जा क लागी सीधी | lime light me aana seekh ge buddhle bhi..kadde gotra vivaad ar kadde issi-2 byaan baaji

[mhundpuriamann]

(gotra exclusion, Kareva partha etc..)explained a majority of Khap Bujjargs at this occasion.

what is this "Kareva partha" ?

[aryasatyadev]

Rightly said bro....... today they are calling us non hindus, tommorow anything else....... haven't they heard of freedom of religion........ and these some so called Buddhijivi Jats will creat problems for whole community.

झज्जर के बुढया ने गर्मी सेध री से | दिमाग में जा क लागी सीधी | lime light me aana seekh ge buddhle bhi..kadde gotra vivaad ar kadde issi-2 byaan baaji

[aryasatyadev]

We are not Hindus Historic declaration by Khap Panchyats
Jhajjar 2 August.



In a significant development Khap heads of various khaps from Haryana Up and Rajasthan clarified Jats are not Hindus .Speaking on this occasion veteran Jat Historian Professor Bhalle Ram Beniwal who wrote a book on Jat History clarified that we were Boddhs historically a religion destroyed by onslaught of Brahmanical Hinduism .Jats always fought against this Hinduism and became Muslim ,Sikh and even Arya Samaji in protest of this Varna Vayvastha advocating religion. When Swami Dayanand Visited Haryana and tried to bring back Jats under Hindu fold ,his move was opposed by Priests who declared Jats unfit for Thread as Holy thread is only for Divija and Jats are Adivija not twice born.

Choudhary Jile Singh Dhankhard head of Dhankhar Khap exposed design of hindutava forces when he says first Jats are called Hindus than they are called Adivaija ,which leave us to lower rank vaisha and Sudra ,Since Jats were never Vaishy so automatically becomes Sudra in Hindu fold .We have been Kashtriyas and should see game plan of Hindutava agents to degrade us.

Speaking on this occasion another historian who authored book on Jat History demanded Minority status for Jat community .He clarified since no ceremony was held to reconvert us from Buddhism we should not be treated as Hindus and Hindu laws under which Khap of Kadians is prosecuted does not apply to us.

Call it by any name Jat religion or Jatissm but we are not Hindus and our custom and traditions are different from their custom and traditions (gotra exclusion, Kareva partha etc..)explained a majority of Khap Bujjargs at this occasion.

These so called Buddhijivi Jats, should first know who is Hindu and what is Hinduism:
(Following are the excerpts of my reply when somebody asked my credentials of being Hindu, if I believe in Arya Samaj)

Hindu or Hinduism is absent from the early sacred litrature of Indian origin.
The actual term “Hindu” first appeared as an Old Persian geographical term (derived from the river Sindhu), to identify the people who lived beyond the River Indus.
“Hindu” became equivalent to anybody of “Indian” origin who was not otherwise belonging to a religion of Abrahamic denomination, thereby encompassing a wide range of religious beliefs and practices.
One of the accepted views is that “ism” was added to “Hindu” around 1830 to denote the culture and religion of the high-caste Brahmans in contrast to other religions.
In 1995, Chief Justice P. B. Gajendragadkar was quoted in an Indian Supreme Court ruling:"When we think of the Hindu religion, unlike other religions in the world, the Hindu religion does not claim any one prophet; it does not worship any one god; it does not subscribe to any one dogma; it does not believe in any one philosophic concept; it does not follow any one set of religious rites or performances; in fact, it does not appear to satisfy the narrow traditional features of any religion or creed. It may broadly be described as a way of life and nothing more."
Hinduism differs from Christianity and other Western religions in that it does not have a single founder, a specific theological system, a single system of morality, or a central religious organization. It consists of "thousands of different religious groups that have evolved in India since 1500 BC".
Most forms of Hinduism are henotheistic religions. They recognize a single deity, and view other Gods and Goddesses as manifestations or aspects of that supreme God. Henotheistic and polytheistic religions have traditionally been among the world's most religiously tolerant faiths.

[kapdal]

Call it by any name Jat religion or Jatissm but we are not Hindus and our custom and traditions are different from their custom and traditions (gotra exclusion, Kareva partha etc..)explained a majority of Khap Bujjargs at this occasion.

Okay, first of all this is incorrect. These customs and traditions are not unique to Jats. Most North Indian Hindu communities practise some sort of gotra exclusion. They may not be that gung-ho about it, but Brahmins, Baniyas, etc. all have their own versions of gotra exclusion. In fact, I am not sure about South India as well. What is acceptable there is that you can marry your maternal cousins (who have different gotra) but I don't know if they can marry within their gotra. Anyways, many Dravidians feel that Hinduism is not their religion as well and it was some North Indian culture that was forced on them. So whose religion is Hinduism?

And what about all those claims about Jats being mentioned in Vedas and other scriptures as the purest race? And even if we agree to this on the manifestly incorrect assumption that our customs and traditions are not same as other Hindus, then are our customs and traditions same as Buddhists?

Hinduism was never a religion with one book or one god or one preacher. I think it was a set of believes that the natives built over a period of time. Each area had its own set of believes and over a period of time, as people intermingled, they developed a common theme. And there were some mythologies like Ramayana and Mahabharata which were popular enough to be accepted everywhere giving people a common bond. But in such diverse people, you would always have different customs and traditions, as the religion never forced you to become a homogenous lot.

Interestingly, would Khap Panchayat also give up its claim for reservations if it is now arguing that we are not Hindus? Reservations so far have been given on caste basis for backward Hindus. There have been demands on religious grounds and nothing stops us from declaring a new religion called Jatism and then demand reservations for that religion. But I guess that would be much more difficult!

[sjakhars]

Seems a publicity stunt, I thought these khaps are run by some intelligent minds, sorry, I was wrong. Its like we want to be seen different from others tactic and nothing else. Never saw a khap in my area in Rajasthan, they may be existing but never heard anything about them.


We are not Hindus Historic declaration by Khap Panchyats
Jhajjar 2 August.



In a significant development Khap heads of various khaps from Haryana Up and Rajasthan clarified Jats are not Hindus .Speaking on this occasion veteran Jat Historian Professor Bhalle Ram Beniwal who wrote a book on Jat History clarified that we were Boddhs historically a religion destroyed by onslaught of Brahmanical Hinduism .Jats always fought against this Hinduism and became Muslim ,Sikh and even Arya Samaji in protest of this Varna Vayvastha advocating religion. When Swami Dayanand Visited Haryana and tried to bring back Jats under Hindu fold ,his move was opposed by Priests who declared Jats unfit for Thread as Holy thread is only for Divija and Jats are Adivija not twice born.

Choudhary Jile Singh Dhankhard head of Dhankhar Khap exposed design of hindutava forces when he says first Jats are called Hindus than they are called Adivaija ,which leave us to lower rank vaisha and Sudra ,Since Jats were never Vaishy so automatically becomes Sudra in Hindu fold .We have been Kashtriyas and should see game plan of Hindutava agents to degrade us.

Speaking on this occasion another historian who authored book on Jat History demanded Minority status for Jat community .He clarified since no ceremony was held to reconvert us from Buddhism we should not be treated as Hindus and Hindu laws under which Khap of Kadians is prosecuted does not apply to us.

Call it by any name Jat religion or Jatissm but we are not Hindus and our custom and traditions are different from their custom and traditions (gotra exclusion, Kareva partha etc..)explained a majority of Khap Bujjargs at this occasion.

[vijay]

Never saw a khap in my area in Rajasthan, they may be existing but never heard anything about them.


These Khaps exists in just a few district of Haryana and in a little area of western UP. Their decisions hardly makes any significance difference to the total Jat population in India.

[Svikas]

narender ji, the link (http://www.jansamwad.com/LatestNews.aspx?dv=Div46) you've given doesn't have the content which you have posted. No mention of buddhism, divija/adivija etc in the link. Is there any other link which exactly says what you've written?


Jhajjar. Aug 2(jansamwad): It seems that Jats have decided to fight those who recently criticizes the khap’s decision and even using the terms such as Tuglaki Farmaan for the khap’s. Today, In Jhajjar a rally was called by the pardhan’s of various khap’s to discuss the recent media reports, recently, media called the khap’s decision’s as Tuglaki Farmaan.
The Khap says about recent gotra controversy, we (jats) are a race/tribe not a caste of hindus or anyone else and have our own customs/culture. One of the Khap member said that jats never accepted Hinduism formally. The khap further says our customs/cultures doesn’t match that of hindu’s.
When asked about the legal aspects of the recent gotra controversy, they said that according to Hindu Marriage Act anyone can marry who are of marriageable age(except minor). According to Hindu Marriage Act , you can marry in the same gotra, and even in blood relation. But this is not permitted in our community. We strictly follow our custom/culture in our community and we have certain guidelines/rules for a valid marriage, says the Khap. We won’t allow anyone to break this custom at any cost, says one of the khap’s pardhan . They further said since we have different custom/cultures and doesn’t match that of hindus, how can Hindu Marriage Act be applicable on us. The law must protect your customs/cultures.
This law (Hindu Marriage Act) is only 50-60 years old, but our custom/culture is about 2000 years old says the khap. We strongly condemn the media for using such words for the khap panchayat. Before saying anything the media must understand the culture/customs of our community says the Khap.

Jansamwad/2 aug/ Parveen kumar singh

[narenderkharb]

what is this "Kareva partha" ?

Marriage of a Widow to her dever ...also termed as Latta Udhana ,Chaddar Udhana ..etc

[mann123]

I agree with you.. people are publicsing Hinduism but don't even know what it is.


These so called Buddhijivi Jats, should first know who is Hindu and what is Hinduism:

(Following are the excerpts of my reply when somebody asked my credentials of being Hindu, if I believe in Arya Samaj)
Hindu or Hinduism is absent from the early sacred litrature of Indian origin.
The actual term “Hindu” first appeared as an Old Persian geographical term (derived from the river Sindhu), to identify the people who lived beyond the River Indus.
“Hindu” became equivalent to anybody of “Indian” origin who was not otherwise belonging to a religion of Abrahamic denomination, thereby encompassing a wide range of religious beliefs and practices.
One of the accepted views is that “ism” was added to “Hindu” around 1830 to denote the culture and religion of the high-caste Brahmans in contrast to other religions.
In 1995, Chief Justice P. B. Gajendragadkar was quoted in an Indian Supreme Court ruling:"When we think of the Hindu religion, unlike other religions in the world, the Hindu religion does not claim any one prophet; it does not worship any one god; it does not subscribe to any one dogma; it does not believe in any one philosophic concept; it does not follow any one set of religious rites or performances; in fact, it does not appear to satisfy the narrow traditional features of any religion or creed. It may broadly be described as a way of life and nothing more."
Hinduism differs from Christianity and other Western religions in that it does not have a single founder, a specific theological system, a single system of morality, or a central religious organization. It consists of "thousands of different religious groups that have evolved in India since 1500 BC".
Most forms of Hinduism are henotheistic religions. They recognize a single deity, and view other Gods and Goddesses as manifestations or aspects of that supreme God. Henotheistic and polytheistic religions have traditionally been among the world's most religiously tolerant faiths.

[aryasatyadev]

Marriage of a Widow to her dever ...also termed as Latta Udhana ,Chaddar Udhana ..etc
Now that we know about this term, somebody tell me wasn't this the story of Hindi Movie "Ek Chadar Maili See" in that moview the characters are not Jats, further this custom is being adopted by many other religions including Islam specially in Punjab, Haryana, UP and Rajasthan, irrespective of religion or caste.

[ravichaudhary]

Widow remarriage is an ancient the Jat custom from Vedic times . It is referred to in the Rig Veda.


A widowed lady , if she was of marriageable age was married to her husband’s younger brother.( devar), or someone else in the extended family.The children had full property rights.


For some reason, as Hinduism developed, it frowned upon this egalitarian custom.

Ravi Chaudhary


A good article on widow remarriage in ancient vedic times was written by O P Gupta.

Some extracts:

The Rigveda: Widows don't have to burn
Author: O.P. Gupta
Publication: The Asian Age
Date: October 23, 2002

The eighth richa (X 18.8) specifically commands a Hindu widow to
return alive to her home. H.H. Wilson translates: "Rise woman, and
go to the world of living beings; come, this man near whom you sleep
is lifeless; you have enjoyed this state of being the wife of your
husband, the suitor who took you by the hand.



Another
richa, X 40.2, may come as a complete surprise to many Hindus. H.H.
Wilson translates it: "Where are you, Ashwins, by night? Where are
you by day? Where do you sojourn? Where do you dwell? Who brings you
into his presence in the same place (of sacrifice) as on her couch a
widow (brings) her husband's brother, as a woman (brings) her husband
(to her)."




Richa X 18.3 commands a
Hindu widow to separate from the dead and richa X 10.8 commands her
to return alive to her children and her home. For their own
empowerment, Hindu women should to remember the seven richas viz (II
17.7), (III 31.2) (X 18.3) (X l8.8) (X 40.2) and X 40.8) to assert
and claim their status and rights.

(O.P. Gupta is ambassador of India to Finland)
http://www.hvk.org/articles/1002/200.html

[ravichaudhary]

Now that we know about this term, somebody tell me wasn't this the story of Hindi Movie "Ek Chadar Maili See" in that moview the characters are not Jats, further this custom is being adopted by many other religions including Islam specially in Punjab, Haryana, UP and Rajasthan, irrespective of religion or caste.


yes

see link
http://picturesquepicture.blogspot.com/2007/10/ek-chadar-maili-si-1986.html

The movie is based on a book by one Rabinder Bedi.

Giving it a title- Ek Chadar maili se' (a dirty shawl), is intended to denigrate an honourable vedic and Jat custom.

In the orthodox hindus, the widow is treated quite badly.

Here the intention is show that this custom is followed by lower castes- tongawalas etc as so called high caste hindhus do not.

Thus jats are of a "lower caste"., since 'high caste' hindus did not follow this custom.


We should continue to be proud of this egalitarian custom.


Ravi chaudhary

[Svikas]

Buddhism in India decayed because of various reasons. Absence of patronage by the kings, rot within buddhist monks and monasteries, foreign invasions and the Hindu revival (military and religious). After Samrat Ashok died, decline of Buddhism had started and buddhism was finished after Harshvardan. Amongst Buddhist monks, many immoral practices crept in and these monks were far removed from the daily life of common people. North and North West India (afghanistan, pakistan, gujarat) were subjected to repeated invasions by Huns, mongols, greeks, mohammudans etc over a period of time.

As monasteries were destroyed by invaders and monks fled, leaving the common Indian person in the lurch who just went back to his old culture as practiced for eons by his forefathers. Since the basis/foundation of our culture and civilization is Hindu Dharma, it was a natural progression.

DD Kosambi wrote:

Buddhism had turned Ashoka away from war to the path of peace. His edicts state that the army would henceforth be used only for spectacles and parades. The real damage came from within, and may be discerned in the report of the same Chinese traveller, though he was perhaps not conscious of what his words signified:

"(The Buddhist scholar who) can explain three classes (of sacred texts) has allotted to him different servants to attend and obey him. ...He who can explain five classes is then allotted an elephant carriage. He who can explain six classes of books is given a surrounding escort if one of the assembly distinguish himself (in disputations) by refined language, subtle investigation, deep penetration, and severe logic, then he is mounted on an elephant covered with precious ornaments, and conducted by a numerous suite to the gates of the abbey. If, on the contrary, one of the disputants breaks down in his argument, or uses poor and inelegant phrases, or if he violates a rule in logic, they proceed to disfigure his face with red and white, and cover his body with dirt and dust, and then carry him off to some deserted spot or leave him in a ditch. Thus they distinguish between the meritorious and the worthless, between the wise and the foolish."Swami Vivekanand wrote:

The aims of the Buddhistic and the Vedic religions are the same, but the means adopted by the Buddhistic are not right. If the Buddhistic means were correct, then why have we been thus hopelessly lost and ruined? Swami Vivekanand wrote:

The Bauddhas declared, "Nothing is more desirable in life than Moksha; whoever you are, come one and all to take it." I ask, "Is that ever possible?" "You are a householder, you must not concern yourself much with things of that sort: you do your Svadharma (natural duty)" — thus say the Hindu scriptures. Exactly so! He who cannot leap one foot, is going to jump across the ocean to Lanka in one bound! Is it reason? You cannot feed your own family or dole out food to two of your fellow-men, you cannot do even an ordinary piece of work for the common good, in harmony with others — and you are running after Mukti! The Hindu scriptures say, "No doubt, Moksha is far superior to Dharma; but Dharma should be finished first of all". The Bauddhas were confounded just there and brought about all sorts of mischief. Non-injury is right; "Resist not evil" is a great thing — these are indeed grand principles; but the scriptures say, "Thou art a householder; if anyone smites thee on thy cheek, and thou dost not return him an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, thou wilt verily be a sinner."Alternate religious philosophy also contributed to the decline of buddhism in India. It was propagated by Shri Shankar acharya (Advaita Vedanta), Shri Madhav acharya (Tattvavada), Shri Ramanuja acharya (Vishisht advaita), Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu (Bhakti) to name a few.

On the Gotra subject, sometimes when we talk, we mention, "saat peedi tak yaad rakhga"(remember till your seven generations), this adage is actually given by the gotra system followed by most Hindu communities. When marrying, bride and groom side has to state the gotra of their ancestors till 7 generations and any match(of gotra in 7 generations), marriage is forbidden since people with same gotra are considered to be siblings and from the same family.

On Dvija, Mahabharat, often referred to as the Fifth Veda (Pancham Veda), contains Bhagavad Gita where Lord Krishna bestows The Revelation on the Arjuna in the battlefield of Kurukshetra. Bhagwan Shree Krishan said,


janmana jayate shudrah, samskarat bhavet dvijah
veda pathat bhavet vipro, brahma janatiti brahmanah

Translation: Every child is BORN(janam) a Shudra. By good upbringing/values(sanskaar/samskarat), one becomes a Twice-Born (dwija). By learning the Vedas, one becomes a Learned Scholar (pandit). Only by knowing the ultimate reality(Brahman), one becomes a brahmin.To cut the long story short, everybody is a shudra by birth. BTW, Janmashtami is on August 14th and sorry for the long post.

[lrburdak]

Let us understand what Hinduism is. There is good content available in Wikipedia at

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu

I take following para from it which explans the version of Supreme Court of India:

Due to the wide diversity in the beliefs, practices and traditions encompassed by Hinduism, there is no universally accepted definition on who a Hindu is, or even agreement on whether Hinduism represents a religious, cultural or socio-political entity. In 1995, Chief Justice P. B. Gajendragadkar was quoted in an Indian Supreme Court ruling:[See - Supreme Court of India, "Bramchari Sidheswar Shai and others Versus State of West Bengal" 1995]

"When we think of the Hindu religion, unlike other religions in the world, the Hindu religion does not claim any one prophet; it does not worship any one god; it does not subscribe to any one dogma; it does not believe in any one philosophic concept; it does not follow any one set of religious rites or performances; in fact, it does not appear to satisfy the narrow traditional features of any religion or creed. It may broadly be described as a way of life and nothing more."

[Samarkadian]

Let us understand what Hinduism is. There is good content available in Wikipedia at

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu

I take following para from it which explans the version of Supreme Court of India:

Due to the wide diversity in the beliefs, practices and traditions encompassed by Hinduism, there is no universally accepted definition on who a Hindu is, or even agreement on whether Hinduism represents a religious, cultural or socio-political entity. In 1995, Chief Justice P. B. Gajendragadkar was quoted in an Indian Supreme Court ruling:[See - Supreme Court of India, "Bramchari Sidheswar Shai and others Versus State of West Bengal" 1995]

"When we think of the Hindu religion, unlike other religions in the world, the Hindu religion does not claim any one prophet; it does not worship any one god; it does not subscribe to any one dogma; it does not believe in any one philosophic concept; it does not follow any one set of religious rites or performances; in fact, it does not appear to satisfy the narrow traditional features of any religion or creed. It may broadly be described as a way of life and nothing more."

That is more on the side of staying politicaly correct.

How a few decades old Law system was able to define 5000 years old civilization in to one sentence. Interesting.

[sunitamaan]

Baris acchi na hui is saal, isliye dimag main ghani garmi chad gi inke, dimag kharab ho liye, samaj ke dhekedar banana chahve se, ya phir gair hinduon se motti rakam kha li hai.



We are not Hindus Historic declaration by Khap Panchyats
Jhajjar 2 August.



In a significant development Khap heads of various khaps from Haryana Up and Rajasthan clarified Jats are not Hindus .Speaking on this occasion veteran Jat Historian Professor Bhalle Ram Beniwal who wrote a book on Jat History clarified that we were Boddhs historically a religion destroyed by onslaught of Brahmanical Hinduism .Jats always fought against this Hinduism and became Muslim ,Sikh and even Arya Samaji in protest of this Varna Vayvastha advocating religion. When Swami Dayanand Visited Haryana and tried to bring back Jats under Hindu fold ,his move was opposed by Priests who declared Jats unfit for Thread as Holy thread is only for Divija and Jats are Adivija not twice born.

Choudhary Jile Singh Dhankhard head of Dhankhar Khap exposed design of hindutava forces when he says first Jats are called Hindus than they are called Adivaija ,which leave us to lower rank vaisha and Sudra ,Since Jats were never Vaishy so automatically becomes Sudra in Hindu fold .We have been Kashtriyas and should see game plan of Hindutava agents to degrade us.

Speaking on this occasion another historian who authored book on Jat History demanded Minority status for Jat community .He clarified since no ceremony was held to reconvert us from Buddhism we should not be treated as Hindus and Hindu laws under which Khap of Kadians is prosecuted does not apply to us.

Call it by any name Jat religion or Jatissm but we are not Hindus and our custom and traditions are different from their custom and traditions (gotra exclusion, Kareva partha etc..)explained a majority of Khap Bujjargs at this occasion.

[narenderkharb]

@Sitaran Jakhar ...

Sitaram Ji ...Our Khap elders and people who declared this are not people like you and me ,Professor Bhale Ram Beniwal has been a learned Scholar and Principal for more than a decade. He had studied Jat history a lot and wrote a voluminous book on Jat History that is well known to all Jat Historians.

Choudhary ZS Dhankar head of Dhankar 360 has been in army . I could'nt name a book that he didn't study .He told me ,a comment from some one made him to start this pursuit of Jat History .He was ill that day but was the first person to reach there .I have never seen such a committed Jat leader and social worker.

Another Historian who told about our religion and Buddhist past has written so far three books professor Gehlot was an IIT professor at Kanpur and so on ....We would be exposing our ignorance if we challenge their knowledge and commitment to our community.So please take time think and than post ,subject is important and needs serious input.

[sjakhars]

Narender Ji,
Buddhism is a section of Hinduism (Also Jainism) as I have read in History books so all Buddhists were Hindus first and this is more reliable history than our Jat historians. Hindus still consider Gautam Buddha an "Avtaar" of "Vishnu". As far as the history and our historians go, I always had doubts and now my doubts are confirmed with this declaration. Tomorrow these Khaps will claim that Jats were existed even before Eva and Adam, are you going to believe them? And nerxt thing we will hear is, Jats used to ride Dianaseurs and Jat kids used to play with Dianaseurs.
We are trying to look different from others as the Muslims do with their beard, cap, burqa and what not. This is a very dangerous declaration from our community and it will harm us a lot in future if we cling to it.
We give proofs from Vedas, Upnishadas, Mahabhart and Ramayan and these all are related to Hinduism or the Sanatan dharma. My common sense tells me that Hinduism is a modern or new term for Sanatan dharma.
One more thing, I am not going to change my beliefs because of this declaration. No one told me in my family/village that I am a Hindu, I am just born with it. No one asked me to go to temple or recite mantras but I feel closer to them and its my inner self that tells me that I am a Hindu.

Note: This is my personal opinion and has nothing to do with Jatland policy and its administration.


@Sitaran Jakhar ...

Sitaram Ji ...Our Khap elders and people who declared this are not people like you and me ,Professor Bhale Ram Beniwal has been a learned Scholar and Principal for more than a decade. He had studied Jat history a lot and wrote a voluminous book on Jat History that is well known to all Jat Historians.

Choudhary ZS Dhankar head of Dhankar 360 has been in army . I could'nt name a book that he didn't study .He told me ,a comment from some one made him to start this pursuit of Jat History .He was ill that day but was the first person to reach there .I have never seen such a committed Jat leader and social worker.

Another Historian who told about our religion and Buddhist past has written so far three books professor Gehlot was an IIT professor at Kanpur and so on ....We would be exposing our ignorance if we challenge their knowledge and commitment to our community.So please take time think and than post ,subject is important and needs serious input.

[narenderkharb]

@Vijay Singh and Sitaram Jakhar

Existence of Khaps in Rajsthan ...


Khap means nothing but just a democratic Republic of Jats .Khaps much bigger than Haryana or Up Khaps were very much present in Rajsthan earlier.Godhara Johiyas and Nehras had such Khaps in Bikaner.Godharas had a khap of 500 villages and Johiyas had more than 300 or so villages in their Khap .Where Jat Khaps in north successfully withstood the onslaught of Muslim rule ,Rajputs in Bikaner aided by Mughals took special interest in completely decimating these basic units of Jat democratic power so much so that even educated Rajsthani Jats don't know about their past existence today.

To Know more about these Godara ,Johiyas and Nehra Khap and their destruction by Bika You can study certain posts already available on this site in JAT HISTORY section.

[narenderkharb]

Narender Ji,
Buddhism is a section of Hinduism (Also Jainism) as I have read in History books so all Buddhists were Hindus first and this is more reliable history than our Jat historians. Hindus still consider Gautam Buddha an "Avtaar" of "Vishnu". As far as the history and our historians go, I always had doubts and now my doubts are confirmed with this declaration. Tomorrow these Khaps will claim that Jats were existed even before Eva and Adam, are you going to believe them? And nerxt thing we will hear is, Jats used to ride Dianaseurs and Jat kids used to play with Dianaseurs.
We are trying to look different from others as the Muslims do with their beard, cap, burqa and what not. This is a very dangerous declaration from our community and it will harm us a lot in future if we cling to it.
We give proofs from Vedas, Upnishadas, Mahabhart and Ramayan and these all are related to Hinduism or the Sanatan dharma. My common sense tells me that Hinduism is a modern or new term for Sanatan dharma.
One more thing, I am not going to change my beliefs because of this declaration. No one told me in my family/village that I am a Hindu, I am just born with it. No one asked me to go to temple or recite mantras but I feel closer to them and its my inner self that tells me that I am a Hindu.

Note: This is my personal opinion and has nothing to do with Jatland policy and its administration.


Sitaram ji


Do you know that Hindus in Akbar times declared King Akbar an incarnation of Lord Vishnu, If you don't believe than you can read Ain-e -Akbari By Abul Fazal..Muslims Cleric were really upset at that What should be done with these Hindus ...

[kapdal]

That is more on the side of staying politicaly correct.

How a few decades old Law system was able to define 5000 years old civilization in to one sentence. Interesting.

Far from it Samar. The SC never defined the civilization in one sentence. You have taken that one sentence out from their judgment and considered that as definition. On the contrary, SC said
"no precise meaning can be ascribed to the terms Hindu, Hindutva and Hinduism; and no meaning in the abstract can confine it to the narrow limits of religion alone, excluding the content of Indian culture and heritage. It is also indicated that the term Hindutva is related more to the way of life of the people in the subcontinent."

Please read the full text here:
http://www.newsanalysisindia.com/supremcourt.htm

SC gave a well reserached and articulated opinion.

I highlight another para that is pertinent to the recent declaration of Khap Panchayat.

"The development of Hindu religion and philosophy shows that from time to time saints and religious reformers attempted to remove from the Hindu thought and practices elements of corruption and superstition and that led to the formation of different sects. Buddha started Buddhism; Mahavir founded Jainism: Basava became the founder of Lingayat religion; Jnaneshwar and Tukaram initiated the Varakari cult: Guru Nanak inspired Sikhism: Dayananda founded Arya Samaj: and Chaitanya began Bhakti cult; and as a result of the teachings of Ramakrishna and Vivekananda, Hindu religion flowered into its most attractive, progressive and dynamic form. If we study the teachings of these saints and religious reformers, we would notice an amount of divergence in their respective views. but underneath that divergence, there is a kind of subtle indescribable unity which keeps them within the sweep of the broad and progressive Hindu religion.
The Constitution-makers were fully conscious of this broad and comprehensive character of Hindu religion: and so, while guaranteeing the fundamental right to freedom of religion, explanation II to Art. 25 has made it clear that in sub-clause (b) of clause (2), the reference to Hindus shall be construed as including a reference to persons professing the Sikh, Jam or Buddhist religion, and the reference to Hindu religious institutions shall be construed accordingly."

[narenderkharb]

Narender Ji,
Buddhism is a section of Hinduism (Also Jainism) as I have read in History books so all Buddhists were Hindus first and this is more reliable history than our Jat historians. Hindus still consider Gautam Buddha an "Avtaar" of "Vishnu". As far as the history and our historians go, I always had doubts and now my doubts are confirmed with this declaration. Tomorrow these Khaps will claim that Jats were existed even before Eva and Adam, are you going to believe them? And nerxt thing we will hear is, Jats used to ride Dianaseurs and Jat kids used to play with Dianaseurs.
We are trying to look different from others as the Muslims do with their beard, cap, burqa and what not. This is a very dangerous declaration from our community and it will harm us a lot in future if we cling to it.
We give proofs from Vedas, Upnishadas, Mahabhart and Ramayan and these all are related to Hinduism or the Sanatan dharma. My common sense tells me that Hinduism is a modern or new term for Sanatan dharma.
One more thing, I am not going to change my beliefs because of this declaration. No one told me in my family/village that I am a Hindu, I am just born with it. No one asked me to go to temple or recite mantras but I feel closer to them and its my inner self that tells me that I am a Hindu.

Note: This is my personal opinion and has nothing to do with Jatland policy and its administration.

This example I gave above was just to show drama of Hindu priests ,You know these days Sai BABA is also considered avatar of Hindu Gods tomorrow Sant Bapu may too be an avatar ...


Hinduism is separate from Buddhist and Jain religion that is a fact and and accepted as such if you dent that than it means you are denying facts and wants to discuss in Hypothetical terms.

[kapdal]

@Sitaran Jakhar ...

Sitaram Ji ...Our Khap elders and people who declared this are not people like you and me ,Professor Bhale Ram Beniwal has been a learned Scholar and Principal for more than a decade. He had studied Jat history a lot and wrote a voluminous book on Jat History that is well known to all Jat Historians.

Choudhary ZS Dhankar head of Dhankar 360 has been in army . I could'nt name a book that he didn't study .He told me ,a comment from some one made him to start this pursuit of Jat History .He was ill that day but was the first person to reach there .I have never seen such a committed Jat leader and social worker.

Another Historian who told about our religion and Buddhist past has written so far three books professor Gehlot was an IIT professor at Kanpur and so on ....We would be exposing our ignorance if we challenge their knowledge and commitment to our community.So please take time think and than post ,subject is important and needs serious input.

No one is arguing about the credentials/commitment of the said individuals. But just because some one has a very strong credentials/commitment doesn't mean that others should blindly follow him/her. If the learned individuals quoted by you above believe in scientific method of questioning/verifying, they would be the most pained if people just took their words at face value without critically scrutinising their arguments.

1. It was claimed in the declaration that practises like gotra exclusion is unique to Jats. Are these individuals unaware of some form of gotra exclusion being practised in other castes- Baniyas, Brahmins, etc?

2. Hinduism was never a religion with one preacher, one god or one book. It broadly describes a culture or a way of life practised by the natives on the eastern side of Hindukush. If Jats are not Hindus, then are we saying that we didn't live in this land called Hindustan before the Muslims/Christians came? Did we come with other invaders?

3. It is a moot point that Hinduism or Hindus predate Buddhism. So even if Jats were practising Buddhism, we still would have been converted (just like everyone else was). Nevertheless, what customs and traditions do we share with Buddhists? And do they even match in quantity/quality with the customs/traditions we share with Hindus?

4. Timing of the declaration is suspect. It is a sudden reaction to the recent events challenging Khap Panchayats' role in gotra controversies (rightly or wrongly). Rather than being a gradual build up based on scholarly work.

[sjakhars]

I never heard/read about this Narender Ji and I am not a historian neither a scholer. My opinion about Hinduism and other subjects is based on my common sense and history read in school/college times and other resources. If there is something which is unacceptable to my common sense and inner self, I will not believe that.


Sitaram ji


Do you know that Hindus in Akbar times declared King Akbar an incarnation of Lord Vishnu, If you don't believe than you can read Ain-e -Akbari By Abul Fazal..Muslims Cleric were really upset at that What should be done with these Hindus ...

[SunnyMann]

Hindus still consider Gautam Buddha an "Avtaar" of "Vishnu". As far as the history and our historians go, I always had doubts and now my doubts are confirmed with this declaration.


Consider kerne main kisi ka kaya jata hain, aap chaye to Obama ko Bhee Visnu ka avatar Bata sakte hain. aapko kon rokta hain.

OK

I met a Bhaman(Sahara TV pe Laptop laker baith ta tha, if u remember, aajkal dusre channelo par bhee kabhee-2 Dikhai dai jaata hain) in my company, He was getting his astrology software developed there. When i discussed it with him he was claiming that Gautam Budha was 10 incarnation of vishnu. He further said Prophet Mohamad, Bhagwan Mahavira, Guru Nanak Dev all are the incarnation of Vishnu.

Mere ko Gussa to Bhut aaya , Mera man usko vahi pitne ka hua, par main aisa kar nahi sakta tha kayoki vo company main khada tha aur vo company ka chota mota client bhee to tha.

[sjakhars]

Gautam was a Hindu/Sanatan dharmi before he founded guidelines for Buddhism and declared it a religion, it's a fact, do you or anyone else can deny this?
Buddhism came in existence in around 500 BC as I remember, Islam in around 500 AD and same is the case for Christianity and Jainism. Can anyone tell me when Hinduism or Vedic or Sanatan Dharma came in existence, any records?
We usually forget that Hinduism is a life style not merely a religion, as explained by many other members also, every "Bharatiya" is a Hindu, most of the Indian Muslims are converted, most of the Indian Christians are converted. Can anyone deny this? May be by force or by choice?

Kapil has asked some very valid questions. Probably I am/was not able to convey my thoughts clearly, thumbs down to my poor English.

This example I gave above was just to show drama of Hindu priests ,You know these days Sai BABA is also considered avatar of Hindu Gods tomorrow Sant Bapu may too be an avatar ...


Hinduism is separate from Buddhist and Jain religion that is a fact and and accepted as such if you dent that than it means you are denying facts and wants to discuss in Hypothetical terms.

[sjakhars]

We all use "Ram Ram" to greet each other, are we going to deny this also or are going to deny "Ramayan" and "Ram"? I think "Ram" is not related to Hinduism that's we are using this.

[narenderkharb]

I never heard/read about this

It is very present on internet itself ,English translation of Persian books is available on many sites...



I am not a historian neither a scholer. My opinion about Hinduism and other subjects is based on my common sense and history read in school/college times and other resources. If there is something which is unacceptable to my common sense and inner self, I will not believe that.

Sitaram ji I shalll say that is an honest admission but just think when you don't know even History of Jat Khaps of your area and don't pretend to be a scholar ,How can you say these Khap elders a bunch of unintelligent people ,that was the point I objected to .

I agree we should not believe anything blindly but should not criticize anyone blindly who in fact may be knowing much more than us.

[sjakhars]

The declaration "We are not Hindus" is very much unintelligent Narender Ji. Why do not you take questions from Jatland and get answers from those intelligent minds? Did you read all my previous posts? Did you read the questions from Kapil and others?
As far as I think Hinduism is in our soul, in our blood and any declaration like this one can not change that, at least mine for sure.

-par ek baat ka dar hai, kade ye khap wale Jatland aur inke members tai koi fatwa jari na kar den, please aap sambhal lena. :)


It is very present on internet itself ,English translation of Persian books is available on many sites...




Sitaram ji I shalll say that is an honest admission but just think when you don't know even History of Jat Khaps of your area and don't pretend to be a scholar ,How can you say these Khap elders a bunch of unintelligent people ,that was the point I objected to .

I agree we should not believe anything blindly but should not criticize anyone blindly who in fact may be knowing much more than us.

[narenderkharb]

We all use "Ram Ram" to greet each other, are we going to deny this also or are going to deny "Ramayan" and "Ram"? I think "Ram" is not related to Hinduism that's we are using this.

Ram is not patented to Hinduism in Fact Lord Sankar Bhagwan(related to Jats by Jat Historian ) is considered lord of all devas in trivistapa......

but let us leave these side issues and keep our focus on main issue.I will like to answer Kapil who has raised certain important points.

[narenderkharb]

The declaration "We are not Hindus" is very much unintelligent Narender Ji. Why do not you take questions from Jatland and get answers from those intelligent minds? Did you read all my previous posts? Did you read the questions from Kapil and others?
As far as I think Hinduism is in our soul, in our blood and any declaration like this one can not change that, at least mine for sure.

-par ek baat ka dar hai, kade ye khap wale Jatland aur inke members tai koi fatwa jari na kar den, please aap sambhal lena. :)


Sitaram ji ..

AAp ne to wahe baat kaar di,Sarri baat thari shir matthe ,par yo patnala aade ae padega..:rolleyes::p

Jab aap ne bera pat gaya tha ke aap bhi puure Gayyani koni to kuyn paresan hovo so ?;)

Haan Sayyad aap ne na bera Jatland ke moderator bhi ode ae thae uss din chaar member ke allawa ,Ke beera bighan enhe ka boya hoya ho ??:):p :D

Atleast three sugestion from JATLAND WERE TAKEN THAT DAY AND SOME OF THE CHANGES/relaxation IN OUR LAWS MAY WELL BE ON SUGGESTIONS OF THE Jatland members on ninth of this month but that is a democratic process and we have to wait for the final outcome.:)

[sjakhars]

Narender Ji,
mujhe na in khaps se problem hai na inke pradhano se. Mujhe problem hai is declaration se. agar unki baat maani jaye to hum sabko apne naam bhi change kar lene chahiye kyunki 99% naam jo jaton ke hain unme "Hindu mythologocal" naam hain. aap log jab wahan the to aapne ye baat nahi uthai wahan?
Main pareshan nahi hoon, main ye kahna chahta hoon ki kahan ja rahe hain hum aur kahan ja rahi hain ye khap panchayaten?
aur jahan tak Jatland Moderators ki baat hai, main pahle hi kah chuka hoon ki ye mere personal vichar hain, inka Jatland administration se koi matlab nahi hai.
aap shayad ye soch rahe hain ki main hi kyun reply kar raha hoon, wo isliye ki main rajniti nahi janta, mujhe seedhi baat kahne ki aadat hai, cheeni me dubokar kahne ki nahi. aur ye baat sada se mere saath rahi hai. ye meri pahchan hai.

Sitaram ji ..

AAp ne to wahe baat kaar di,Sarri baat thari shir matthe ,par yo patnala aade ae padega..

Jab aap ne bera pat gaya tha ke aap bhi puure Gayyani koni to kuyn paresan hovo sai ?

Haan Sayyad aap ne na bera Jatland ke moderator bhi ode ae thae uss din chaar member ke allawa ,Ke beera bighan enhe ka boya hoya ho ??:):p :D

Atleast three sugestion from JATLAND WERE TAKEN THAT DAY AND SOME OF THE CHANGES/relaxation IN OUR LAWS MAY WELL BE ON SUGGESTIONS OF THE Jatland members on ninth of this month but that is a democratic process .:)

[sjakhars]

Narender Ji,
agar aap "Ram" aur "Shankar" ko Hindiusm se juda hua nahi maante to kya kiya jaye, phir aap hi bataiye Hinduism kya hai, shayad khap hi Hinduism ki definition tay karengi ab. chaliye, aap ye prashn bhi uthaiye wahan. Ram, Krishna, Shankar aadi agar Hindiusm me nahi hain to Musalman, Christians unko kyun nahi maante?
Hinduism kya hai ispe ek article padha tha Jatland par hi ise Brahm Ji ne bhi post kiya tha Jatland, aap log bhi padh lijiye:
http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26283&highlight=hinduism

is thread me sawal yahi to hai ki agar hum Hindu nahi hain to kya hain? hamara koi dharm nahi hai, nastik hain hum? Hindu kon hai India me?


Ram is not patented to Hinduism in Fact Lord Sankar Bhagwan(related to Jats by Jat Historian ) is considered lord of all devas in trivistapa......

but let us leave these side issues and keep our focus on main issue.I will like to answer Kapil who has raised certain important points.

[sunitamaan]

Sitaram ji,

Jat hindu nahin hai, ye kehkar, Mr. Narinder aur ye so called Khap aale, ek ghatiya aur sasti lokpriyata paana chahte hain, behtar hoga inko avoid kiya jai.

I request all jatland not to reply any post which is use less like this, which say Jat's are not Hindus.

Ham hindu the, hindu hain aur hindu rahenge.



Narender Ji,
agar aap "Ram" aur "Shankar" ko Hindiusm se juda hua nahi maante to kya kiya jaye, phir aap hi bataiye Hinduism kya hai, shayad khap hi Hinduism ki definition tay karengi ab. chaliye, aap ye prashn bhi uthaiye wahan. Ram, Krishna, Shankar aadi agar Hindiusm me nahi hain to Musalman, Christians unko kyun nahi maante?
Hinduism kya hai ispe ek article padha tha Jatland par hi ise Brahm Ji ne bhi post kiya tha Jatland, aap log bhi padh lijiye:
http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26283&highlight=hinduism

is thread me sawal yahi to hai ki agar hum Hindu nahi hain to kya hain? hamara koi dharm nahi hai, nastik hain hum? Hindu kon hai India me?

[prashantacmet]

"We are jats first hindus later", it was accepted by most of the jat historians..and personally i agree with it but the question is what khap panchayats intend by saying that jats are not hindus. are they tricking with judicial system by declaring themselves as non-hindus and want to execute law and order of their own. It 's ok if we don't recognise all customs and traditions floated by hindu brahmins but how can be ignorant about the fact that 90% population of jats(10 % include arya samajis and mulle jats) in haryana, UP and rajasthan is hindu .It would have been better if khap panchayat had made a responsible statement rather than this controversial one.

[narenderkharb]

Narender Ji,
mujhe na in khaps se problem hai na inke pradhano se. Mujhe problem hai is declaration se. agar unki baat maani jaye to hum sabko apne naam bhi change kar lene chahiye kyunki 99% naam jo jaton ke hain unme "Hindu mythologocal" naam hain. aap log jab wahan the to aapne ye baat nahi uthai wahan?
Main pareshan nahi hoon, main ye kahna chahta hoon ki kahan ja rahe hain hum aur kahan ja rahi hain ye khap panchayaten?
aur jahan tak Jatland Moderators ki baat hai, main pahle hi kah chuka hoon ki ye mere personal vichar hain, inka Jatland administration se koi matlab nahi hai.
aap shayad ye soch rahe hain ki main hi kyun reply kar raha hoon, wo isliye ki main rajniti nahi janta, mujhe seedhi baat kahne ki aadat hai, cheeni me dubokar kahne ki nahi. aur ye baat sada se mere saath rahi hai. ye meri pahchan hai.

Sitaram ji

Sidhi sacchi baat Jat ki pahli pahchan hai so don't bother about that .

Ram Krishan Arjun Gautam or Mahavir etc are not considered part of any one religion ..you will find Arjun Singh a Sikh soldier some Ram Krishan Jain a Shopkeeper or RamVilas a Hindu politician.If you see all Jain and Boddh names are similar to other Hindu names ,So it is an irrelevant issue.

[sjakhars]

Aap phir wahin aa jate hain Narender Ji. ye jo sikh, buddhist, Jainis hain, wo pahle kya the? aap to aise kah rahe hain jaise Hinduism naam ki koi chidia kabhi astistva me hi nahi rahi. ye sab Hinduism se hi nikle hain, agar aap is baat ko nahi maante to iska matlab hai ki Hinduism inse bhi naya religion hai, jahan tak main samjhta hoon Bharat me sirf Hindu hi rahte the jab tak ki kuch Hindu jo ki brahmno ke karm-kaand aur andhvishwas se oob gaye/pareshan ho gaye aur unko chhod ke naye panth ki sthapna ki jaise Gautam Buddha, Mahaveer Swami, Guru Nanak Dev.
shayad aapki/khap ki najar me brahmanwad hi Hinduism hai. chaliye, ab main reply karna band karta hoon. shayad is discussion ko khatam karne ka yahi ek tareeka hai magar intelligent logon se jaisi ummid hoti hai wo poori nahi ho rahi.

Sitaram ji

Sidhi sacchi baat Jat ki pahli pahchan hai so don't bother about that .

Ram Krishan Arjun Gautam or Mahavir etc are not considered part of any one religion ..you will find Arjun Singh a Sikh soldier some Ram Krishan Jain a Shopkeeper or RamVilas a Hindu politician.If you see all Jain and Boddh names are similar to other Hindu names ,So it is an irrelevant issue.

[kapdal]

Sitaram ji

Sidhi sacchi baat Jat ki pahli pahchan hai so don't bother about that .

Ram Krishan Arjun Gautam or Mahavir etc are not considered part of any one religion ..you will find Arjun Singh a Sikh soldier some Ram Krishan Jain a Shopkeeper or RamVilas a Hindu politician.If you see all Jain and Boddh names are similar to other Hindu names ,So it is an irrelevant issue.

Yes, they are common names because they are all native religions. Hinduism is just a name that is given to the common culture/believes/value system that exists all across India. It is a relatively new name as well. Hundreds of years ago, this term was not even known. Sikhism, Buddhism, Jainism all came from within Hinduism. They all made certain changes to the native religion so as to "reform" the social practises. That is why they share so much with other Hindus. That is why the constitution of India includes references to Hindu to include all other native religions. We share as much of the commonalities with Hinduism as brahmins, gujars, yadavas, dalits, etc. As for differences, all castes have their own unique customs and traditions. You want to have Hindu names, pray to Hindu gods, have Hindu scriptures and yet call yourself as non-Hindu! There is always a constituency for weird ideas, but don't expect it to fly with many.

[narenderkharb]

"We are jats first Hindus later", it was accepted by most of the jat historians..and personally i agree with it but the question is what khap panchayats intend by saying that jats are not hindus. are they tricking with judicial system by declaring themselves as non-hindus and want to execute law and order of their own. It 's ok if we don't recognise all customs and traditions floated by hindu brahmins but how can be ignorant about the fact that 90% population of jats(10 % include arya samajis and mulle jats) in haryana, UP and rajasthan is hindu .It would have been better if khap panchayat had made a responsible statement rather than this controversial one.


Parshant

To cut a long story short Khap heads wanted to make it clear that we were First Vedic Dharmi than Buddhist we have certain customs and traditions that are our own and we value them.So far you don't interfere in our affairs we have no problem with you.However we were never formerly inducted in Hinduism from Buddhist past .So laws made for general Hindus does not hold good for us .This does not mean that Jat Khaps declared themselves as Buddhists but some were saying we are Vedic Dharmi different from Sanatni Hinduists and some thought of making our own religion ,in-fact Intellectual and KHAPS ARE VERY DIVIDED ON THIS ISSUE .What I predict is they are going to declare themselves as Vedic Dharmis different from from Brahmanical or Sanatani version of Hinduism and later who knows we may see rise of a Jat Dharam.:)

[sjakhars]

Thanks Kapil for summing it up, crystal clear, thats what I wanted to convey with my poor English. This English work environment could not improve my English but definitely degraded my Hindi. :( :(

Yes, they are common names because they are all native religions. Hinduism is just a name that is given to the common culture/believes/value system that exists all across India. It is a relatively new name as well. Hundreds of years ago, this term was not even known. Sikhism, Buddhism, Jainism all came from within Hinduism. They all made certain changes to the native religion so as to "reform" the social practises. That is why they share so much with other Hindus. That is why the constitution of India includes references to Hindu to include all other native religions. We share as much of the commonalities with Hinduism as brahmins, gujars, yadavas, dalits, etc. As for differences, all castes have their own unique customs and traditions. You want to have Hindu names, pray to Hindu gods, have Hindu scriptures and yet call yourself as non-Hindu! There is always a constituency for weird ideas, but don't expect it to fly with many.

[kapdal]

Thanks Kapil for summing it up, crystal clear, thats what I wanted to convey with my poor English. This English work environment could not improve my English but definitely degraded my Hindi. :( :(

I thought your posts were very clear as well. I saw nothing wrong with the language.

[narenderkharb]

Aap phir wahin aa jate hain Narender Ji. ye jo sikh, buddhist, Jainis hain, wo pahle kya the? aap to aise kah rahe hain jaise Hinduism naam ki koi chidia kabhi astistva me hi nahi rahi. ye sab Hinduism se hi nikle hain, agar aap is baat ko nahi maante to iska matlab hai ki Hinduism inse bhi naya religion hai, jahan tak main samjhta hoon Bharat me sirf Hindu hi rahte the jab tak ki kuch Hindu jo ki brahmno ke karm-kaand aur andhvishwas se oob gaye/pareshan ho gaye aur unko chhod ke naye panth ki sthapna ki jaise Gautam Buddha, Mahaveer Swami, Guru Nanak Dev.
shayad aapki/khap ki najar me brahmanwad hi Hinduism hai. chaliye, ab main reply karna band karta hoon. shayad is discussion ko khatam karne ka yahi ek tareeka hai magar intelligent logon se jaisi ummid hoti hai wo poori nahi ho rahi.

Sitaram ji

Jab aap maante hain ki Hindu naam hi naya hai to phir Boddh Jain religion ko Hindu religion se kyon pada karte ho ?

Let us consider there was a dharam some vices like varn Vayvastha ,karam Kand etc crept in to it and from this different new religions originated Buddhists Jains etc,Jats joined Buddhism later first Huns than alliance of Kasim and native priests destroyed Buddhist Jat power and Kingdom completely.Than came rise of feudal forces in Rajsthan who actively supported old sanatani version of Hinduism.

Now tell me How Jats became Sanatani Hindus again in this scenario.

[sjakhars]

main nahi maan raha, aapki baaton se lag raha tha ki aap aisa maan rahe hain isliye maine likha tha, main to kah raha tha/hoon Bharat me kewal Hindu hi rahte the jab tak ki Buddha, Mahaveer aur Guru Nanak ne naye panth nahi chalaye the aur Islam aur Christianity ka aagaman nahi hua tha. Hinduism is the oldest religion on this earth. Pahle isko Vedic kaha, phir ise Sanatan kaha aur ab ise Hindu dharm kahte hain aur mujhe isme koi shaq nahi hai. samay ke saath isme badlav jarur aaye hain magar ye teeno alag alag bilkul nahi hain. I think I have made myself clear now.
maine kaha tha reply band kar raha hoon magar aapki is bachkani baat ne mujhe majboor kar diya. shayad aap kuch nahi samajh pa rahe hain ki aap kya chahte hain, kya sochte hain, kya kahte hain, kya karte hain.
Now I can understand how intelligent our Khap pradhans are? May god bless Jats magar konsa god ye to khap tay karengi.
Sorry for being sarcastic but I can't help it.

Sitaram ji

Jab aap maante hain ki Hindu naam hi naya hai to phir Boddh Jain religion ko Hindu religion se kyon pada karte ho ?

Let us consider there was a dharam some vices like varn Vayvastha ,karam Kand etc crept in to it and from this different new religions originated Buddhists Jains etc,Jats joined Buddhism later first Huns than alliance of Kasim and native priests destroyed Buddhist Jat power and Kingdom completely.Than came rise of feudal forces in Rajsthan who actively supported old sanatani version of Hinduism.

Now tell me How Jats became Sanatani Hindus again in this scenario.

[narenderkharb]

You want to have Hindu names, pray to Hindu gods, have Hindu scriptures and yet call yourself as non-Hindu! There is always a constituency for weird ideas, but don't expect it to fly with many.

Kapil

As I wrote earlier Buddhist consider Sankara lord of Devas and Have names that are similar sanatanis but they are non Hidus ,
that is a fact accepted by Indian GOVERNMENT.

Is it weired ???

Sikhs pray Hari Guru Govind Singh worshiped Durga and Shiva have Sanatani names ,they are considered non Hindus

Is it weired ???


And yes who told you that khap wants to have some sanatani Hindu scriptures ??? at least I don't know any plan regarding that .

[mhundpuriamann]

Rightly said bro....... today they are calling us non hindus, tommorow anything else....... haven't they heard of freedom of religion........ and these some so called Buddhijivi Jats will creat problems for whole community.

ham budhhyan gel sain bhaae kise nai aanaa ho to aao na to marji !

bujurg bandde jo karte hain sahi karte hain ! they might not have heard thousand and one thing , they might not be very intellectual people like u but it is sure that they r more intelligent !

how ? because they r doing all these things for u people !

[kapdal]

Sitaram ji

Jab aap maante hain ki Hindu naam hi naya hai to phir Boddh Jain religion ko Hindu religion se kyon pada karte ho ?

Let us consider there was a dharam some vices like varn Vayvastha ,karam Kand etc crept in to it and from this different new religions originated Buddhists Jains etc,Jats joined Buddhism later first Huns than alliance of Kasim and native priests destroyed Buddhist Jat power and Kingdom completely.Than came rise of feudal forces in Rajsthan who actively supported old sanatani version of Hinduism.

Now tell me How Jats became Sanatani Hindus again in this scenario.

Bhai, this is not some jaadu mantar ki jaadhui chhadi se chhoo diya to sab buddhist ban gaye. Ab waapas nahin chhua to Hindu nahin bane. History is mostly speculation. What we know is present. And everyone knows how Jats have been living now and in the recent past. We go to Hindu temples, pray before Hindu gods, have the usual Hindu customs with some variations of our own. What Buddhist stuff do we practise? Do people in villages even know who Buddha was? The same bade-boodhe who would tell you the full history of gotras, can they tell you anything about teachings of Buddha? They would still know Gayatri Mantra, stories of Hindu gods and the other usual stuff about Hinduism. So Jats remained Buddhists yet forgot everything about it, and gave up Hinduism while kept on with Hindu customs!!??

[kapdal]

Kapil

As I wrote earlier Buddhist consider Sankara lord of Devas and Have names that are similar sanatanis but they are non Hidus ,
that is a fact accepted by Indian GOVERNMENT.

Is it weired ???

Sikhs pray Hari Guru Govind Singh worshiped Durga and Shiva have Sanatani names ,they are considered non Hindus

Is it weired ???


And yes who told you that khap wants to have some sanatani Hindu scriptures ??? at least I don't know any plan regarding that .

This is what Indian constitution says. This is what I was talking about and had posted earlier as well. You seem to have missed it.

"The Constitution-makers were fully conscious of this broad and comprehensive character of Hindu religion: and so, while guaranteeing the fundamental right to freedom of religion, explanation II to Art. 25 has made it clear that in sub-clause (b) of clause (2), the reference to Hindus shall be construed as including a reference to persons professing the Sikh, Jam or Buddhist religion, and the reference to Hindu religious institutions shall be construed accordingly." <!-- / message -->

[narenderkharb]

Sorry for being sarcastic but I can't help it.

Never mind I can understand that .
It is a basic rule that governs all such discussions .

[narenderkharb]

Bhai kapil

Jae Sitaram ji nai rest le liya ho to aap se bhi gallan sallan kar lenya........???

[sjakhars]

And today our Khap leaders have woken up from "gahri neend" and declared that We are not Hindus but Buddhist.
itni sadiyon tak kahan gayi thi ye khaps, kyun nahi bataya ki hum Hindu nahi buddhist hain. ab kisi ko sapna aaya lagta hai, Mahatma Buddha ne in khap pradhano se kaha hoga ki rrre ke karo so, mera naam bhool ge, jaago aar Jatan ne batao ki wo Hindu na hain Buddhist hain.
@#$%$#@^&*^&%$#$#@@%&
yo ke likh diya, manne bhi na bera.


Bhai, this is not some jaadu mantar ki jaadhui chhadi se chhoo diya to sab buddhist ban gaye. Ab waapas nahin chhua to Hindu nahin bane. History is mostly speculation. What we know is present. And everyone knows how Jats have been living now and in the recent past. We go to Hindu temples, pray before Hindu gods, have the usual Hindu customs with some variations of our own. What Buddhist stuff do we practise? Do people in villages even know who Buddha was? The same bade-boodhe who would tell you the full history of gotras, can they tell you anything about teachings of Buddha? They would still know Gayatri Mantra, stories of Hindu gods and the other usual stuff about Hinduism. So Jats remained Buddhists yet forgot everything about it, and gave up Hinduism while kept on with Hindu customs!!??

[narenderkharb]

Simple basic rule of such discussions...

As you loose on arguments you will show more desperation ,Sarcasm and offense in your posts .Take it easy bhai ji.:cool::)

[narenderkharb]

OK Kapil can you list your questions and let us try to be as brief as possible.

[kapdal]

OK Kapil can you list your questions and let us try to be as brief as possible.

Bhai kati brief mein le le..post # 7, 26, 49. Aur bhi do teen hongi, apne hi ID se post ki hain maine, zyada dhoondne ki zaroorat nahin padni chaahiye...:).

[narenderkharb]

Le Kapil pahle teri iss page aali ne dekh lenya...


History is mostly speculation. What we know is present.

History is not mere speculation ,, Jats have recorded Buddhist by various authors at various times.There are both direct and indirect references regarding that .Chinese in Han chronicles mentions for the first time about Jats residing on river Sihun being follower of religion of Fo (Buddhism). Even in Buddha times King Uddayan who is mentioned as Jat in Arya Manju Shri Mulkalpa bows his head to Gautam and follows BUDDHISM ,Arabian Muslim writers in Chachnama refers about Jats being followers of Buddhism mentioned as Samanis they followed the custom of honoring by tieing a turban on head .Various kings considered Jats like Asoka ,Kushana and Harshwardhana are reported followers of Buddhism.In fact the entire Area of Jat inhabitance that is Silk Road from India is reported under Buddist influence.


Now let us move on What these Hindus granths tell about Jats ....


Majmul ul Tawarikh mentions from ancient Sanskrit literature that there was no Brahman in Land of Jats and they were settled there on the request of sister of Duryodhan .

Puranas call this land as land of Malecchas and a Brahman should never visit these lands .If he visit this land he must take bath and clean himself before doing any thing.

Mahabharata wrote a lot about these adharmi Jartas and I should not quote that defamatory material which is already known to other historian .

Another Puran calls these Sakas Pahlavas and Kambojas Jats as Degraded Kashtriyas as they didn't follow Hinduism (Brahmans)

So in short we may say Yes Jats did adopt Buddism and were though alien by Hindu priests .

[narenderkharb]

Sorry repost.

[anilsinghd]

And I always wished that we could do more constructive things in the lil time that life spares us ! :)

[SunnyMann]

I never heard/read about this Narender Ji and I am not a historian neither a scholer. My opinion about Hinduism and other subjects is based on my common sense and history read in school/college times and other resources. If there is something which is unacceptable to my common sense and inner self, I will not believe that.


Khali common sense se kaam nahi chalta, Aur jo apne school/college main Jo history padhi se na vo Hindua kee History kade tai aagi.

Can you give me dates when hindu rulled India?
and please provide links etc

I doubt ever they have done so.

Jo bhee Hindu History hain vo saari ke saari mythological hain.

I think you forgot the rule of
-British - Christian
-Mughal/Islamic
-Budhist (It goes to 500 BC).

500 BC to 1947 AD tak dusre dhramo ka rule raha hain (500 BC se pehale bhee ho sakta hain) And after 1947 , sabhi dhramo ka.

So please don't tell me that Budhist rule is hindu rule.

First of all the word Hindu was not present that time. It only began appearing after 9-10 AD.

Ho Sakta hain ab aap Ramayan aur Mahabharat ke baat karo.
Lekin Baat kerne se pehle aapko Ramyan aur mahabharat main hindu Dhram aur hinduo ke baare main likha hua dikhana Hoga.

[narenderkharb]

And I always wished that we could do more constructive things in the lil time that life spares us ! :)

AAp log to rojh ae kaaro ho yoh constrictive Kaam Ke Chaala hogaya bhai jai aaj haam nae bhi Kar Diyaa to ....:rolleyes::):p

On a serious note we should take a short/long sleep break now.

[ravichaudhary]

If we can let us try and bring the discussion in some narrow focus.

Why did the Khaps make this declaration- that Jats re not Hindu?

An incident occurred, whereby the Indian Secular courts, are passing judgment on the social customs of the Jats, ( which do not allow same Goth marriage).

The Indian court says same goth marriage is allowed under their law, (and under the Hindu Marriage Act???).

In other words the Hindu marriage act interpreted by the court allows same Goth marriage.

This is against the Jat customs, and had got the Jats riled up, and making them state that in that case, they are not Hindus.

I.e. if Hindu Law allows same Goth marriage, then Jats are not Hindus.

So it is a broader question of what law shall apply.

Perhaps for Jats, a separate law needs to be passed?

That is what I understand the Jats are saying through their Khaps

Ravi Chaudhary

[SunnyMann]

Ham hindu the, hindu hain aur hindu rahenge.:rock


Ham jat the, jat hain aur jat rahenge

[sjakhars]

I did not loose the argument, neither my temper. Whatever I said above was bcoz I pity on the knowledge and intelligence of the people who send out this kind of "Fatwas", welcome to the land of Talibanis.

Some simple questions:
1. Why did these khaps tell us now that we are Buddhists and not Hindus now, why not 100s of years ago? Can you or you khaps answer this?
2. Why we do not have pictures/statues of Buddha in our homes in place of "Ram", "Krishna", "Balaji" and other Hindu deities? Or are these all deities Buddhist?
3. Why do we recite all the mantras which come from Vedas, Upnishadas, aaranyakas, Puranas etc. etc.? Or do you think all these mythological books are Buddhist literature?
4. Why "Janam, maran aur paran" rituals are done according Hinduism? Why do you invite Pandits (Brahmins) for all these rituals?



Simple basic rule of such discussions...

As you loose on arguments you will show more desperation ,Sarcasm and offense in your posts .Take it easy bhai ji.:cool::)

[ravichaudhary]

One single question:
Why did these khaps tell us now that we are Buddhists and not Hindus now, why not 100s of years ago? Can you or you khaps answer this?


Basically everyone has forgotten their history.

Unless we study the topic, we will not know that Rohtak was a major Buddhist centre.

That does not mean that all Buddhists followed Jat customs.


In Eastern India for example, we find at that time, references to 1st cousin marriage. The Jats will not permit that.

Jat have been Vedic, Buddhist, Jain, and more recently Sikh, and Muslim.

But are Jat following orthodox Hinduism.??

The Priest( Brahmin) relationship with the Jats is one, where the priest( in traditional villages) will not accept 'Pukka' food but only ' kacha" food.

One wonders why this is and also how old the custom is!.


Again the question will come down too is: which law shall prevail

Ravi Chaudhary

[sjakhars]

Ravi Ji
Courts do not ask Jats to get involved in same Goth marriages, we are/were unable to make our new generation aware of our traditions, customs and social norms. One side we advocate for Common civil code and on the other side we want separate law for ourselves, this is called Talibanism/fatwaism.


If we can let us try and bring the discussion in some narrow focus.

Why did the Khaps make this declaration- that Jats re not Hindu?

An incident occurred, whereby the Indian Secular courts, are passing judgment on the social customs of the Jats, ( which do not allow same Goth marriage).

The Indian court says same goth marriage is allowed under their law, (and under the Hindu Marriage Act???).

In other words the Hindu marriage act interpreted by the court allows same Goth marriage.

This is against the Jat customs, and had got the Jats riled up, and making them state that in that case, they are not Hindus.

I.e. if Hindu Law allows same Goth marriage, then Jats are not Hindus.

So it is a broader question of what law shall apply.

Perhaps for Jats, a separate law needs to be passed?

That is what I understand the Jats are saying through their Khaps

Ravi Chaudhary

[raj_rathee]

The Haryana Jats that I know certainly don't seem to qualify as "Hindu".
For that matter I don't think they fall under any religion as such. Their
religion is the land...pretty much.

Also, I think Indian Law needs to accomodate the various social
systems that have existed for many centuries. Enforcing some conjured up uniform civil code without consideration of centuries old customs
and practices and artifically categorising people into
certain religions is unjust and should be rebelled against.

[jitendershooda]

If we can let us try and bring the discussion in some narrow focus.

Why did the Khaps make this declaration- that Jats re not Hindu?

An incident occurred, whereby the Indian Secular courts, are passing judgment on the social customs of the Jats, ( which do not allow same Goth marriage).

The Indian court says same goth marriage is allowed under their law, (and under the Hindu Marriage Act???).

In other words the Hindu marriage act interpreted by the court allows same Goth marriage.

This is against the Jat customs, and had got the Jats riled up, and making them state that in that case, they are not Hindus.

I.e. if Hindu Law allows same Goth marriage, then Jats are not Hindus.

So it is a broader question of what law shall apply.

Perhaps for Jats, a separate law needs to be passed?

That is what I understand the Jats are saying through their Khaps

Ravi Chaudhary

This is the core of the discussion.

Jadojehad hai apni manyataon ko recognise karne ki .... whether what we were following since centuries were something to do with welfare of society/individual or they were all hoax. Should we leave all behind and get wrapped under one cover "hindu".

What is HINDU/ DHARAM to me?
I have born in a family which follow some customs and traditions. Those are dharam for me.

1) Kiloi Shivaji mandir is very much near to our fields. I asked severally to my grand parents and parents even ... if they been there ... they said NO never ... and now you can see kilometer long lines on shivratri.
2) We never took "Phools" to ganga or garh-ganga though we worship pitr's/kanagat
3) We never married in our village and left few gotras.
4) We have certain set of tyohar's

So for me this is dharam. Yes, there can be some issues with our practices that needs to be addressed and removed timely. But if govt say that they legalise same gotr and cousin marriage for we people then we have right to ask them to either recognise our practices (those needs to be after discussion) or dont bind us with some name like "Hindu" because I dont know any hindu religion if its practices doesnt match to be basically.

Dont we see the present system/law faulty when such cases occur daily here and there. Either they are more flexible or they didnt addressed many things logically during the national building (constitution, laws etc).

[cooljat]

I somewhat disagree with the statement made by Khap Panchayats. Albeit I believe Jats never been religious or god fearing in a way. They always condemned of hardcore religious rituals like sculpture worship, going to mandirs n like that, Jats always been 'Karmayogi' and believed in only Hard Work n' never say die attitude.

But still All of Jats reside in UP, Rajasthan, Haryana, MP, Delhi n near about areas follow Hindu rituals n' customs in their daily course of life and on major events like child born, festivals, marriages, funeral etc. DON'T WE?

Agree with it or not! Jats do follow Hinduism, although not hardcore Hindu followers but they're, that's why we are called as HINDU JATS ! It depends what customs u follow, like Sikh Jats follow Sikhism n' Muslim Jats follow Islam, ain't sure how hard-core they're for their religions/faiths.

Even though, I myself not a follower of Hinduism, rather am an atheist .. to be precise am spiritual not a ritual BUT still in some imp events of life I'll have to follow Hindu customs.

Hence it proves, we all are HINDU JATS not Buddhist or other.


Rock on
Jit

[prashantacmet]

Parshant

To cut a long story short Khap heads wanted to make it clear that we were First Vedic Dharmi than Buddhist we have certain customs and traditions that are our own and we value them.So far you don't interfere in our affairs we have no problem with you.However we were never formerly inducted in Hinduism from Buddhist past .So laws made for general Hindus does not hold good for us .This does not mean that Jat Khaps declared themselves as Buddhists but some were saying we are Vedic Dharmi different from Sanatni Hinduists and some thought of making our own religion ,in-fact Intellectual and KHAPS ARE VERY DIVIDED ON THIS ISSUE .What I predict is they are going to declare themselves as Vedic Dharmis different from from Brahmanical or Sanatani version of Hinduism and later who knows we may see rise of a Jat Dharam.:)

Kharab ji...Now I am convinced...I guess title of the thread is making ppl outrageous:):)

[Svikas]

If we can let us try and bring the discussion in some narrow focus.

Why did the Khaps make this declaration- that Jats re not Hindu?

An incident occurred, whereby the Indian Secular courts, are passing judgment on the social customs of the Jats, ( which do not allow same Goth marriage).

The Indian court says same goth marriage is allowed under their law, (and under the Hindu Marriage Act???).

In other words the Hindu marriage act interpreted by the court allows same Goth marriage.

This is against the Jat customs, and had got the Jats riled up, and making them state that in that case, they are not Hindus.

I.e. if Hindu Law allows same Goth marriage, then Jats are not Hindus.

So it is a broader question of what law shall apply.
Ravi Chaudhary
Sir, per the original article (http://www.jansamwad.com/LatestNews.aspx?dv=Div46),
A factual error was made when the khap said that all Hindu communities can marry in the same gotra (via Hindu Marriage Act 1955). Least they should read before shooting their mouth off. This is totally incorrect, there are Hindu communities other than us who forbid same gotra marriages. IOW, "same gotra marriage is forbidden" is not our sole preserve, there are others who follow it as well as part of their tradition.

Before 'reforms' under JN Nehru in the 1955 Hindu Marriage Act, sa-gotra marriage was banned. As I read the 1955 Hindu Marriage Act (http://www.sudhirlaw.com/HMA55.htm), it allows each community(incl us) to adopt its own rules/customs BUT not make rules as you go along. I would request you and others also to go through the Act and give their opinions.

Since these khaps are too sensitive touch me not types and cannot take any criticisms, they should be advised not to take knee jerk decisions, if a khap decides to take lives of innocent boys/girls or are kidnapping kids to punish parents for same gotra marriage, they'll be criticized and called names by media and others.

Lastly, shouldn't this thread be in Current Affair/some other section?

[sjakhars]

Sach baat to ye hai ki hum apne hi bachon ko apne riti riwaz apnane ke liye prerit nahi kar pa rahe aur jab wo in riti riwajon, samajik prathao ko todte hain to hum samvidhan ko dosh dete hain, agar hum itne hi jagrook hain to apne balak aisa karte hi kyun hain, hamare ghar me bachpan se ye baat saamne aati rahi hai ki hum chaar goth taal ke shadi karte hain, hum me se kisi ke bhi ye khyal tak nahi aaya, in chaar gothon ki ladkiyan hamare liye bahan hain, aisa bhaav aata hi nahi. agar hum apne bachon ko ye baat samjha nahi sakte to galti hamari hai na ki samajik prathaon ki ya bharatiya samvidhaan ki.

[jitendershooda]

Before 'reforms' under JN Nehru in the 1955 Hindu Marriage Act, same-gotra marriage was banned.

Vikas,

I have read on internet and found the only link which you have provided in this regard. This says that early to 1955 same gotr marriage was banned but after that on mutual consent the couple can do so legally. Please correct me if I am wrong.

[kapdal]

Le Kapil pahle teri iss page aali ne dekh lenya...



History is not mere speculation ,, Jats have recorded Buddhist by various authors at various times.There are both direct and indirect references regarding that .Chinese in Han chronicles mentions for the first time about Jats residing on river Sihun being follower of religion of Fo (Buddhism). Even in Buddha times King Uddayan who is mentioned as Jat in Arya Manju Shri Mulkalpa bows his head to Gautam and follows BUDDHISM ,Arabian Muslim writers in Chachnama refers about Jats being followers of Buddhism mentioned as Samanis they followed the custom of honoring by tieing a turban on head .Various kings considered Jats like Asoka ,Kushana and Harshwardhana are reported followers of Buddhism.In fact the entire Area of Jat inhabitance that is Silk Road from India is reported under Buddist influence.


Now let us move on What these Hindus granths tell about Jats ....


Majmul ul Tawarikh mentions from ancient Sanskrit literature that there was no Brahman in Land of Jats and they were settled there on the request of sister of Duryodhan .

Puranas call this land as land of Malecchas and a Brahman should never visit these lands .If he visit this land he must take bath and clean himself before doing any thing.

Mahabharata wrote a lot about these adharmi Jartas and I should not quote that defamatory material which is already known to other historian .

Another Puran calls these Sakas Pahlavas and Kambojas Jats as Degraded Kashtriyas as they didn't follow Hinduism (Brahmans)

So in short we may say Yes Jats did adopt Buddism and were though alien by Hindu priests .

Narender, I had raised many other points. Picking a line or two and then replying on that is quite convenient, but serves no purpose.

Nevertheless, I didn't say History is merely speculation, I said mostly. It changes the meaning quite a bit. It is mostly speculation because you will always get contrarian accounts/records of an event. Even historians' interpretations never match each others. There is always a story in history. So you can't say that so and so wrote this, hence proved. Whatever you have stated above is not a fact. It can't be proved or disproved. A fact is something that can be proved beyond reasonable doubt. One can prove that Earth is round. You have selectively taken a few interpretations to claim that Jats were Buddhists. There would be several other historical accounts that would be contrarian. For example, the interpretation of Asoka being a Jat is based on his grandfather Chandragupta Maurya's surname that is believed to be same as Mor gotra of Jats. However, there are other interpretations- son of a maid called "Mura", belonged to a clan of peacock tamers, belonged to a Kshatriya clan of Moriya. Can anyone prove which one of these is fact? We can only speculate and then pick the speculation that sounds most logically consistent.

The above is merely a response to the history argument. The thrust of that particular post of mine that you replied to was about the present. Whether Jats were Buddhists or not is besides the point. If we were, we were not the only ones. During Asoka's reign and subsequently, it is believed that most of India was Buddhist. But then Buddhism became extinct in India. And most of the natives had customs/traditions/religious inclination that can be broadly termed as Hinduism. What we know is the present and very recent past on which everyone has a much stronger handle. Our customs/traditions/gods/festivals, etc. show a significant overlap with the other practitioners of Hinduism. We have our own unique customs as well just like others have. But what do we share with Buddhists? If we are Buddhists, then his teachings, his life story, the tenets of Buddhism, etc. should all be common knowledge amongst our people. Is it? I bet if you go to the average household and ask about Buddha, they'd start telling you about ghar ka boodha..:)

[Svikas]

Jitendra Bhai, there are conditions to fulfill before a proper Hindu marriage can be done, in the same link, read clause 5 (iv) and (v) for conditions and clause 3(f) and (g) for definitions. Mutual consent is only for divorce for the rest one has to provide a recognized custom or usage. Hope to have answered your question.

[ravichaudhary]

Sir, per the original article article (http://www.jansamwad.com/LatestNews.aspx?dv=Div46),
A factual error was made when the khap said that all Hindu communities can marry in the same gotra (via Hindu Marriage Act 1955). Least they should read before shooting their mouth off. This is totally incorrect, there are Hindu communities other than us who forbid same gotra marriages. IOW, "same gotra marriage is forbidden" is not our sole preserve, there are others who follow it as well as part of their tradition.

Before 'reforms' under JN Nehru in the 1955 Hindu Marriage Act, sa-gotra marriage was banned. As I read the 1955 Hindu Marriage Act (http://www.sudhirlaw.com/HMA55.htm), it allows each community(incl us) to adopt its own rules/customs BUT not make rules as you go along. I would request you and others also to go through the Act and give their opinions.

Since these khaps are too sensitive touch me not types and cannot take any criticisms, they should be advised not to take knee jerk decisions, if a khap decides to take lives of innocent boys/girls or are kidnapping kids to punish parents for same gotra marriage, they'll be criticized and called names by media and others.

Lastly, shouldn't this thread be in Current Affair/some other section?




Dear Vikas ji

thank you for very relevant information.

let us eliminate speculat
the article is reproduced


""We are no part of Hindus a separate tribe/race : says khap panchayat

Jansamwad News
Jhajjar. Aug 2(jansamwad): It seems that Jats have decided to fight those who recently criticizes the khap’s decision and even using the terms such as Tuglaki Farmaan for the khap’s. Today, In Jhajjar a rally was called by the pardhan’s of various khap’s to discuss the recent media reports, recently, media called the khap’s decision’s as Tuglaki Farmaan.


The Khap says about recent gotra controversy, we (jats) are a race/tribe not a caste of hindus or anyone else and have our own customs/culture. One of the Khap member said that jats never accepted Hinduism formally. The khap further says our customs/cultures doesn’t match that of hindu’s.


When asked about the legal aspects of the recent gotra controversy, they
said that according to Hindu Marriage Act anyone can marry who are of marriageable age(except minor). According to Hindu Marriage Act , you can marry in the same gotra, and even in blood relation. But this is not permitted in our community. We strictly follow our custom/culture in our community and we have certain guidelines/rules for a valid marriage, says the Khap. We won’t allow anyone to break this custom at any cost, says one of the khap’s pardhan . They further said since we have different custom/cultures and doesn’t match that of hindus, how can Hindu Marriage Act be applicable on us. The law must protect your customs/cultures.


This law (Hindu Marriage Act) is only 50-60 years old, but our custom/culture is about 2000 years old says the khap. We strongly condemn the media for using such words for the khap panchayat. Before saying anything the media must understand the culture/customs of our community says the Khap.


Jansamwad/2 aug/ Parveen kumar singh

http://www.jansamwad.com/LatestNews.aspx?dv=Div46 ""

[ravichaudhary]

Thanks to Vikasji


THE HINDU MARRIAGE ACT, 1955
(Act 25 of 1955)[18th May, 1955]

Act to amend and codify the law relating to marriage among Hindus.

An Preliminary
1. Short title and extent.-(1) This Act may be called the Hindu Marriage Act, 1955.

(2) It extends to the whole of India except the State of Jammu and Kashmir, and applies also to Hindus domiciled in the territories to which this Act extends who are outside the said territories.
'

2. Application of Act.- (1) This Act applies,-


(a) to any person who is a Hindu by religion in any of of its forms or developments, including a Virashaiva, a Lingayat or a follower of the Brahmo, Prarthana or Arya Samaj;


(b) to any person who is a Buddhist, Jaina or Sikh by religion, and


(c) to any other person domiciled in the territories to which this Act extends who is not a Muslim, Christian, Parsi or Jew by religion, unless it is proved that any such person would not have been governed by the Hindu law or by any custom or usage as part of that law in respect of any of the matters dealt with herein if this Act had not been passed.

included a person who, though not a Hindu by religion is, nevertheless, a person wh (3) The expression "Hindus" in any portion of this Act shall be construed as if it om this Act applies by virtue of the provisions contained in this section.


3. Definitions.- In this Act, unless the context otherwise requires,-


(a) the expression "custom" and "usage" signify any rule which, having been continuously and uniformally observed for a long time, has obtained the force of law among Hindus in any local area, tribe, community, group or family:


Provided that the rule is certain and not unreasonable or opposed to public policy; and


Provided further that in the case of a rule applicable only to a family it has not been discontinued by the family;


(f)(i)"Sapinda relationship" with reference to any person extends as far as the third generation(inclusive) in the line of ascent through the mother, and the fifth (inclusive) in the line of ascent through the father, the line being traced upwards in each case from the person concerned, who is to be counted as the first generation;


(ii) two persons are said to be "sapinda" of each other if one is a lineal ascendant of the other within the limits of sapinda relationship, or if they have a common lineal ascendant who is within the limits of sapinda relationship with reference to each of them;


(g)"degrees of prohibited relationship " - two persons are said to be within the "degrees of prohibited relationship"-


(I) if one is a lineal ascendant of the other; or


(ii) if one was the wife or husband of a lineal ascendant or descendant of the other; or


(iii)if one was the wife of the brother or of the father's or mother's brother or of the grandfather's or grandmother's brother or the other; or


(iv)if the two are brother and sister, uncle and niece, aunt and nephew, or
children of brother and sister or of two brothers or of two sisters.

Hindu Marriages


5. Condition for a Hindu Marriage.- A marriage may be solemnized between any two Hindus, if the following conditions are fulfilled, namely:

(iv) the parties are not within the degrees of prohibited relationship unless the custom or usage governing each of them permits of a marriage between the two;


(v) the parties are not sapindas of each other, unless the custom or usage governing each of them permits of a marriage between the two;
'
"""


What do readers interpret the Hindu marriage act to permit?


How does it apply to the recent controversy.

Note ::in many south Indian hindu communities, Brahmins 1st cousin marriage is permitted. daughter is offered first to the mama.

That is a valid local custom- sapinda rule is avoided.


Please discuss

Ravi Chaudhary

[ravichaudhary]

From a reading of the Hindu Marriage Act, it appears to me
that the Court will permit same goth marriage, 1st cousin marriage, ifsuch custom is a local custom.


The language of the act is very clear- that local custom will prevail over the other provisions of th Act.

Thus in the in recent Haryana case, the Court should have followed the local custom, which forbade marriage in the same goth, and ALSO( VERY IMPORTANT) in the neighbouring village.


Had the Court followed the Act, this tragedy would have been avoided.

The young man would have known that he could not marry under the Hindu Act, but would have to convert- become a Muslim. The girl would have also known that.



Should the Jats bring a PIL to Supreme Court to clarify the issue, so that the lower Courts have a clear direction?



Vikasji, Thank you again, for bringing focus to the topic.


Ravi Chaudhary



T

[sjakhars]

Ravi Ji,
kya isi karan Khap panchayat ne kaha ki hum Hindu nahi Buddhist hain? aur ab jab aap ye kah rahe hain ki local custom will get priority over the HMA 1955 then why we need to say that we are not Hindus but Buddhist when only a PIL can serve the cause?

[ravichaudhary]

Ravi Ji,
kya isi karan Khap panchayat ne kaha ki hum Hindu nahi Buddhist hain? aur ab jab aap ye kah rahe hain ki local custom will get priority over the HMA 1955 then why we need to say that we are not Hindus but Buddhist when only a PIL can serve the cause?


At this point I am not getting into the detail of the argument.

Historically, it is wrong to harp too much on whether Jats were buddhists, Jain, or for that matter worshippers of stones.

That is not the core issue.

The issue is what the law is, and also is the Law reflective of society, and is it a just law?


The Hindu Marriage Act, appears to allow a ' free for all' .!!!

Is that what society wants?


I suggest we focus on that.


Ravi Chaudhary

[ravichaudhary]

A PIL will not necessarily solve the problem. It will be just one tool.

The court can only interpret he law. The law is drafted by the Ministry, and passed by parliament. ( Parliament is simply another term for a Khap, is analogous to our Sarv Khap)

Our question is what did this parliament intend.?

Why did they draft and make a law that allows same goth marriage, and not only same goth, but 1st cousin marrriage (- marriage of mama- bhanji) under the flimsy claim that it is a local custom d e.g for South Indian Brahmins?

That being the case why did the drafters of the law ignore the jat customs, and not codify them into the law.

One reason is that the jats had no organized voice at that time. the South Indian Brahmins , mnay were working in the Ministry and were active in politics, and had the Act drafted to suit their customs.


So we need to organize and have either the law clarified to include our customs, or have the law changed.

The Jats have fought unjust laws,- made by rajputs, Muslims, the British.



That is what will help avoid tragedies like Vedpalji. If the court had told him, they would not recognize his proposed marriage as a Hindu marraige- he would have thought twice.

Those who still wish to marry can convert and become Muslims

Our kids must have clarity, where they can marry and where they cannot.




Law, (Dharam) must prevail. To prevail it must be just.

Ravi Chaudhary

[VivekGathwala]

2 अगस्त को झज्जर में ढराना गौत्र विवाद के चलते सर्व खाप पंचायत का आयोजन किया गया | इस पंचायत में हमारे बड़े भाई नरेंदर जी खरब व भारती जी सिन्धु ने भी सिरकत की | सर्व खाप पंचायत में कई आवश्यक फैसले लिए गए | पंचायत द्वारा लिए गए फैसले :-
1) कादयान खाप को तन - मन - धन से सहयोग का वचन |
2) हिन्दू कोड में परिवर्तन के लिए न्यायलय तथा सरकार के सामने जाना होगा |
3) जाट समाज के जो लोग गोत्र प्रथा का विरोध कर रहे हैं उन्हें चेतावनी देनी होगी कि वे इस दुष्प्रचार को बंद करे नहीं तो समाज उनके विरूद्व प्रतिबन्ध लगाने पर विचार करेगा |
4) दुसरे समाज के लोग विशेषकर शाहनी जैसे खत्री जाति के व्यक्ति जो मानवधिकारों के बहाने हमारे समाज को तोड़ने का षड़यंत्र कर रहे हैं उनके समाज के खिलाफ जाट समाज को सख्त फैसले लेने होंगे |
5) मीडिया जाट पंचायतो को तालीबानी कह रहा हैं और हमारे समाज के भाई - बहन बच्चों को प्रेमी युगल कहकर उनकी हत्या करवा रहा हैं जो इसके लिए जिम्मेवार हैं | मीडिया एक तरफी बात का प्रचार न करे | जाटों कि गोत्र प्रथा को पुर्णतः समझ कर ही अपना प्रचार करे अन्यथा जाट कौम ने भी मीडिया के विरोध में कोई फैसला लेना होगा |
6) भांजी का मामला छोड़ दिया जाये |
7) पूर्ण मुदे का निचौड़ हैं कि हिन्दू कोड में गौत्र प्रावधान न होने पर हिन्दू जाटों को छोड़ दुसरे 80 करोड़ हिन्दुओ को हिन्दू कोड से कोई शिकायत नहीं तो साफ़ अर्थ हैं कि हिन्दू जाट हिन्दू नहीं हैं | वह आर्य हैं और उसकी संस्कृति और धर्म वैदिक हैं |

[raka]

a pil will not necessarily solve the problem. It will be just one tool.

The court can only interpret he law. The law is drafted by the ministry, and passed by parliament. ( parliament is simply another term for a khap, is analogous to our sarv khap)

our question is what did this parliament intend.?

Why did they draft and make a law that allows same goth marriage, and not only same goth, but 1st cousin marrriage (- marriage of mama- bhanji) under the flimsy claim that it is a local custom d e.g for south indian brahmins?

That being the case why did the drafters of the law ignore the jat customs, and not codify them into the law.

one reason is that the jats had no organized voice at that time. The south indian brahmins , mnay were working in the ministry and were active in politics, and had the act drafted to suit their customs.


so we need to organize and have either the law clarified to include our customs, or have the law changed.

The jats have fought unjust laws,- made by rajputs, muslims, the british.



That is what will help avoid tragedies like vedpalji. If the court had told him, they would not recognize his proposed marriage as a hindu marraige- he would have thought twice.

Those who still wish to marry can convert and become muslims

our kids must have clarity, where they can marry and where they cannot.




Law, (dharam) must prevail. To prevail it must be just.

Ravi chaudhary
रवि जी चौ.छोटूराम जी एक बात कहते थे की ' ऐ भोले जाट एक तो तू बोलना सीख ले दूसरा दुश्मन को पहचानना सीख ले ' इसमें बोलना सीख ले से चौ साहब का मतलब तहजीब से बोलना नहीं अपने हक के लिए बोलना सीख ले था जो जाट अब तक नहीं सीखे हैं |
दूसरी बात संविधान की तो शायद चौ.रणबीर हूडा जी इस संविधान मण्डली का हिस्सा थे और मेरे ये समझ नहीं आई के चौ हूडा जी ने इसमें संसोधन क्यों नहीं करवाया वो तो अपनी संस्कृति से अच्छी तरह से वाकिफ थे ?

[SikarwarRaja]

We are not Hindus Historic declaration by Khap Panchyats
Jhajjar 2 August.



In a significant development Khap heads of various khaps from Haryana Up and Rajasthan clarified Jats are not Hindus .Speaking on this occasion veteran Jat Historian Professor Bhalle Ram Beniwal who wrote a book on Jat History clarified that we were Boddhs historically a religion destroyed by onslaught of Brahmanical Hinduism .Jats always fought against this Hinduism and became Muslim ,Sikh and even Arya Samaji in protest of this Varna Vayvastha advocating religion. When Swami Dayanand Visited Haryana and tried to bring back Jats under Hindu fold ,his move was opposed by Priests who declared Jats unfit for Thread as Holy thread is only for Divija and Jats are Adivija not twice born.

Choudhary Jile Singh Dhankhard head of Dhankhar Khap exposed design of hindutava forces when he says first Jats are called Hindus than they are called Adivaija ,which leave us to lower rank vaisha and Sudra ,Since Jats were never Vaishy so automatically becomes Sudra in Hindu fold .We have been Kashtriyas and should see game plan of Hindutava agents to degrade us.

Speaking on this occasion another historian who authored book on Jat History demanded Minority status for Jat community .He clarified since no ceremony was held to reconvert us from Buddhism we should not be treated as Hindus and Hindu laws under which Khap of Kadians is prosecuted does not apply to us.

Call it by any name Jat religion or Jatissm but we are not Hindus and our custom and traditions are different from their custom and traditions (gotra exclusion, Kareva partha etc..)explained a majority of Khap Bujjargs at this occasion.



Yes we are Hindus. Lord Krishna was Hindu. We are Hindu. Arya Samaj is Hindu.

quit being ashamed of yourself.

[drssrana2003]

We are Hindus

Prashant Ji,
Please leep your cool (true to your cool name). We Jats are not only Hindus but the true representatives of what was and is called Hind or Hindustan. According to Majma-ul- Twarikh all Hindus were Jats. The main set was called Jat by the Arabs. It is a different matter that many groups have branched off to cquire seperate identitis and labels.
What is quoted by Narender Ji was the voice of agony protesting against the treatment meted out to our traditions and customs which are true hinhuite. Let us not take offence against such well meant expressions of anguish.
Thanks

[kapdal]

Yes we are Hindus. Lord Krishna was Hindu. We are Hindu. Arya Samaj is Hindu.

quit being ashamed of yourself.

Relax dude! Second post and such bitter reaction!! You may want to refer to this post on "civilized discussion guidelines":
http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28170

And what sort of logic is this?

Yes we are Hindus. Lord Krishna was Hindu. We are Hindu. Arya Samaj is Hindu.

[kapdal]

What is quoted by Narender Ji was the voice of agony protesting against the treatment meted out to our traditions and customs which are true hinhuite. Let us not take offence against such well meant expressions of anguish.
Thanks

Sir, I think you mean good intentions with "well meant" expression. While it is debatable whether it was an expression of good intentions or authority to prove one's relevance, even if we assume good intentions, how can a good motive be used to justify the action?

[sunillathwal]

And what sort of logic is this?

I will go with the answer "bad sort of logic". :D

[drssrana2003]

I think the current law needs to be amended to the extent that the degrees of prohibition are clearly stated to include at least the gotra of the father and gotra of the mother's father and the brotherhood of immedaiately next village (seemajod biradari) unless the custom and tradition of the relevant area do not disallow such unions in marriage. The current clause (3) and (4) do not help things.

[Fateh]

May I request all my brothers & sisters to consider my this suggestion seriously, Why cannot jats come back to jat dharam which is any day batter than Hinduism, claim minority status & enjoy your traditions. Those in favour of same gotra marriages can stay with Hindu practices. with warm regards, forgive & forget Fateh.

[anilsangwan]

May I request all my brothers & sisters to consider my this suggestion seriously, Why cannot jats come back to jat dharam which is any day batter than Hinduism, claim minority status & enjoy your traditions. Those in favour of same gotra marriages can stay with Hindu practices. with warm regards, forgive & forget Fateh.


Nice idea uncle ji...thought provoking.... why not.... Let us discuss further! :)

[vijay]

Why cannot jats come back to jat dharam which is any day batter than Hinduism, claim minority status & enjoy your traditions. Those in favour of same gotra marriages can stay with Hindu practices.

I will appreciate is somebody please describe about the "Jat Dharam" and since when we discarded it ( As Fateh ji asking to come back that obviously means that we left it ).

How and in what ways it is better than Hinduism ?

Or is it just another thread on Khaps and Gotra issue ?

Or is it a partition of Jat community on the basis of different ideologies on same gotra marriage issue ?

[ravichaudhary]

I will appreciate is somebody please describe about the "Jat Dharam" and since when we discarded it ( As Fateh ji asking to come back that obviously means that we left it ).

How and in what ways it is better than Hinduism ?

Or is it just another thread on Khaps and Gotra issue ?

Or is it a partition of Jat community on the basis of different ideologies on same gotra marriage issue ?


Is that not the very reason, it is suggested to readers,( Nay, they are encouraged) that they become educated in our culture, traditions, and the history thereof?

If they understand the history of their people, the answers to these questions will come.


Ravi Chaudhary

P.S. Dharam does not equate to religion, but to a way of life.

[yudhvirmor]

Religion is a way of living. Jats are more sync with Arya Samaj philosophy. I never met an die hard jat who keep navratas or goes to temple everyday. Together with other castes of Hindus, we stand better chance to thrive. We can have our own customs and way of living life.

[ravinderjeet]

I will appreciate is somebody please describe about the "Jat Dharam" and since when we discarded it ( As Fateh ji asking to come back that obviously means that we left it ).

aaj taahi to tanney koye appreciate naa karyaa , khood ke siwaaye

How and in what ways it is better than Hinduism ?
any ism is better then hinduism

Or is it just another thread on Khaps and Gotra issue ?

you dont belive in khap and gotra ,so why you are worring.


Or is it a partition of Jat community on the basis of different ideologies on same gotra marriage issue ?

yes,it is a one more partition jat sikh,mooley jat ,arya samaaji jat ,sanaatani jat ,jat jat aur jat who belongs to nowhere like you and me and some other

[VirJ]

There is no ism in hinduism. Its defined for us by foreigners. Earlier hinduism used to refer a whole civilisation, an umbrella of different people and various tradition.

[Fateh]

I will appreciate is somebody please describe about the "Jat Dharam" and since when we discarded it ( As Fateh ji asking to come back that obviously means that we left it ).

How and in what ways it is better than Hinduism ?

Or is it just another thread on Khaps and Gotra issue ?

Or is it a partition of Jat community on the basis of different ideologies on same gotra marriage issue ?

Brother, your kind attention is drawn towards post of Raviji, take action accordingly, please pay attention to the post of yudhvirji & still if you have some doubts left, please donnot hasitate to come back, I shall try my best to explaine my point of view. As per my personal view, you should not use words like ( I will appreciate ) such words generally used by very senior or elderly people. thanks, regards

[vijay]

Is that not the very reason, it is suggested to readers,( Nay, they are encouraged) that they become educated in our culture, traditions, and the history thereof?

If they understand the history of their people, the answers to these questions will come.

Ravi Chaudhary

P.S. Dharam does not equate to religion, but to a way of life.

Ravi Ji,

I don't think that Hinduism is restricting us from educating our folks about our culture, traditions and the History.

[vijay]

Religion is a way of living. Jats are more sync with Arya Samaj philosophy. I never met an die hard jat who keep navratas or goes to temple everyday. Together with other castes of Hindus, we stand better chance to thrive. We can have our own customs and way of living life.

Agree with you !

Nobody is restricting us from following our customs and the way we want to live our lives.
Survival of the fittest rule is effectively applicable everywhere. Progressive, adjustable and strong-willed community can survive and thrive anywhere.

[vijay]

Brother, your kind attention is drawn towards post of Raviji, take action accordingly, please pay attention to the post of yudhvirji & still if you have some doubts left, please donnot hasitate to come back, I shall try my best to explaine my point of view.


Yudhvir believes ( as he stated above ) that we stand better chance of thriving while staying with other castes of Hinduism.




As per my personal view, you should not use words like ( I will appreciate ) such words generally used by very senior or elderly people. thanks, regards

Thanks for the advice !

[Fateh]

Agree with you !

Nobody is restricting us from following our customs and the way we want to live our lives.
Survival of the fittest rule is effectively applicable everywhere. Progressive, adjustable and strong-willed community can survive and thrive anywhere.

Brother,

In our country, does sikhism, budhism, jainism, christianity etc restrict you from progress?

Parsies have a small strength in numbers, they have a totally different faith, and are progressing much better, than others.

Thus no religion will effect your progress at least in India.


The fact is, if you are from a minority faith, your good work will be recognized faster & accordingly reward will be many fold better.


I requested all to understand that religion is simply a way of life nothing more than that, by pointing towards the post of yudhvirji.

JUST AS THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE IN CONGRESS & BJP, SIMILARLY THERE IS NO BASIC DIFFERENCE IN ANY RELIGION.


Just as political parties all politicians are fooling the public, similarly through religions all contractors of religion are enjoying at the cost of the simple public. Since the religion is a way of life, why cannot we adopt our own way of life, a jat way of life where we do not even depend for small small things on selfish contractors of religion.

As per my knowledge, understanding & belief, Jas are . They have a different way of life with a different thinking & different practices, but today we are confused between jat, Hindu, Ariya samaj, Sikh & upto some exten muslim way of life due to varrious reasons. Lately, we are getting some blue colouring of christianity tooo.

Thus don't you think, we should adopt one way of life & that is our own jat way of life - which is simple, more suitable for us & if not better than any other way of life & on top of that we will get benefits of minority status too .

On a practical level, , y there will be not much of difference in our day today life, except that we will get rid of many useless practices & dependency on other people & at the same time we get few extra advantages of minority status.

Personally I believe that we should ask a tribe status beside minority faith. regards

[upendersingh]

May I request all my brothers & sisters to consider my this suggestion seriously, Why cannot jats come back to jat dharam which is any day batter than Hinduism, claim minority status & enjoy your traditions. Those in favour of same gotra marriages can stay with Hindu practices. with warm regards, forgive & forget Fateh.


Colonel Fateh Singh Kharb is the first person who gave the idea of Jat as religion...great...never heard before that Jat can even be religion...

[ayushkadyan]

Colonel Fateh Singh Kharb is the first person who gave the idea of Jat as religion...great...never heard before that Jat can even be religion...

I think it's need of the hour to come under one umbrella (Jat Dharam) rather than wasting our time on those things which are certainly not going to help Jats in any manner except dividing us.

[prashantacmet]

I think it's need of the hour to come under one umbrella (Jat Dharam) rather than wasting our time on those things which are certainly not going to help Jats in any manner except dividing us.


Sikh jat aur muley jato ko bhi kheench lo isme.... :) aur apne araya samaji aur sanatani ku bhi daag ke lyo.....

par dekh liyo ..pata chala hum jat dharam aale 4-5 hazaar hi rah ja..ar aur jaat mahrre riste lene bandh kr de...hahahahaha

[RathiJi]

Bhai jab ban ja ga bata diyo ... juta na baaja to baat hai... Jato ke bas ke kaha rakhe dharam banane.. JAT dharmik hai hi nahi... are apna culture maano jo hai ... baki jis dharam ki achi baat maan ni ve maano.

[upendersingh]

I think it's need of the hour to come under one umbrella (Jat Dharam) rather than wasting our time on those things which are certainly not going to help Jats in any manner except dividing us.

Certainly, but I think it is not for all. I hope Col. Kharb will consider you deserving..

[ayushkadyan]

Sikh jat aur muley jato ko bhi kheench lo isme.... :) aur apne araya samaji aur sanatani ku bhi daag ke lyo.....

par dekh liyo

भाई,

पहलै अपणे आळे तो काब्बू मा आ जाण दै, दूसरो नै फेर का देख लान्गै| यहाँ तो जूत्त बाज्जण के ढब हो रे| मन्नै तो न्यू बेरा अक हिंदू जाट भी इक गैल बैठ गे तो वो भी घणी बड़ी बात है| दूसरे जाट्टो की ज़रूरत कोन्या|



..pata chala hum jat dharam aale 4-5 hazaar hi rah ja..ar aur jaat mahrre riste lene bandh kr de...hahahahaha

यू काम होण तै पेह्ल्लै अपणे फेरे तो फिर जा, होर तो हम देख लांगे..;)

[anil_rathee]

Sir, but this can not be done over the internet. It will need a revolution, organizational structure and leadership to work on ground for few years if not decades.

[Fateh]

You are very right, but once people agrees, all required work can be done, home work has already been done, people should come forward every thing can be organized, let people agree at list on jatland

[Prikshit]

Bhaio jat ne jat bana rehan dyo Wo bahut badi baat se. Rauj nayi thoery aur committee baithani thik nhi.

[ygulia]

I think this topic is good for HUMOUR section only.

[AryanPoonia]

Religion should be individual and personal. Your 'faith in God 'should not be used as a social identity. If someone says that he is a Hindu, a Muslim or a Sikh , it means these are his castes not religions.

[vdhillon]

Bhai, why do Jats need to be united? Like one spoon of yogurt is enough to turn gallons of milk into yogurt. Assuming being Jat is such a good thing, then we all must get divided, go forth, spread, and infect all others with JATitude :) winkzzz

PS: sorry, I'm just messing with you, playing with words :)


I think it's need of the hour to come under one umbrella (Jat Dharam) rather than wasting our time on those things which are certainly not going to help Jats in any manner except dividing us.

[Fateh]

I think this topic is good for HUMOUR section only.

What else one can expect from so called modern and educated jats, Your statement is a good jock

[anil_rathee]

No Need to waste time for people to agree. if you believe in something firmly, just take the lead.... whoever will agree will join..
You are very right, but once people agrees, all required work can be done, home work has already been done, people should come forward every thing can be organized, let people agree at list on jatland

[ayushkadyan]

Bhai, why do Jats need to be united? Like one spoon of yogurt is enough to turn gallons of milk into yogurt. Assuming being Jat is such a good thing, then we all must get divided, go forth, spread, and infect all others with JATitude :) winkzzz PS: sorry, I'm just messing with you, playing with words :)Bhai, I am getting your point. I am pasting a story here. I hope it will help fellow members in understanding your point:The Two Villages:You know Guru Nanak travelled far and wide. He taught the people the right ways of living. Once he was travelling through Bengal in India. Bhai Bala, who was a Hinduand Bhai Mardana, who was a Muslim were also with the Guru. They walked from village to village on foot. On this day, they had travelled far and were very hungry and tired. They wanted some food and rest. They were exhausted and could go no further. So they went towards the nearest village to stay for the night. Near the village they met some people.The Guru stopped and said, "Dear sir, we are travellers. We have been walking for a long time. Now we are hungry and tired. Can you give us some food to eat and a room to sleep for the night? "Go away. We don't care for any traveller,"replied the people very rudely.They asked many other people but everybody in the village was rude and unkind to them. They had to spend the night outside as no one would let them stay with them. They also went to sleep hungry and exhausted.They got up early in the morning and sang hymns called Shabds. They prayed to God in a prayer called an Ardas. After the prayer Guru Nanaksaid, "May these people stay comfortably here in this village forever."The party of three then set out on their journey once again. Bhai Mardanawas very upset. He was very angry with the people of the village. He did not like the Guru's blessing for such bad people. But he did not say anything.Towards the evening, they came to another village. The people of that village were very good. They welcomed everyone who came to their village. They were very kind to Guru Nanakand his friends. They served them good food with loving care. They gave them nice beds to sleep in for the night. Next morning when they got up Guru Nanaksaid to his friends, "Let us pray." So they prayed to God for the good of all. After the prayer Guru Nanaksaid, "May the people of this village scatter every where." Mardana felt very upset once again. He said to the Guru, "Master, I cannot understand your wish. You wish the good to scatter away and the unkind to stay happily in one place. You curse the good but you bless the bad." Guru Nanak said, "Listen to me, my dear Mardana. I have not cursed the good people. I wish these good people to scatter and flourish in other parts of the world. Wherever they go, they will make the people there good. If there are more good people, the world will be happier. The bad people of the other village are good-for-nothing. They will make other people rude and unkind wherever they go. So I have ask God to live comfortably in their village. It is therefore better if they just stay in their own village." Mardana was not upset now. He was happy. The Guru's wish was clear to him. Let us be kind and gentle to other people and please our Lord.

[Fateh]

No Need to waste time for people to agree. if you believe in something firmly, just take the lead.... whoever will agree will join..
Anjl I shall consider the suggestion, thanks

[upendersingh]

Would Col. Fateh Singh Kharb be given his dues? It has been written in history pages now that Col. Kharb is the first person (correct me with proof if I am wrong) who has given the idea of Jat Dharam and thus he should be considered as founder of Jat Dharam and deserves special honour by those who have converted to Jat Dharam. I have observed here that some Jats have adopted Jat Dharam. I am sorry that I have not done so by now, but if a big number of Jats convert to Jat Dharam, then I will also start thinking over it. Presently being a Hindu I don't know about the founder of Hinduism, so I don't know whom to be given special honour in this concern and whom to be considered as my master, but I know Jains give special honour to Mahavir, Sikhs also give special honour to Guru Nanak. Muslims and Christians also consider Prophet Mohammad and Jesus Christ their father respectively. Honourable Col. Kharb will never say that he should be given the credit or should be treated specially, but it is the duty of his followers to respect him. And I am serious...not trying to ridicule this issue. I have saved this page also as proof.

[manojmalik007]

kadde yo dharam bhi rampal aala dharam tai na banega?

[vdhillon]

Well pointed out bhai... I like this part specially.


I will appreciate is somebody please describe about the "Jat Dharam" and since when we discarded it

[vdhillon]

Col saab, I have mixed view on your 2nd comment, some I like and some I differ a bit. But its a good topic and I thank you for that :)


Brother,
In our country, does sikhism, budhism, jainism, christianity etc restrict you from progress?
Parsies have a small strength in numbers, they have a totally different faith, and are progressing much better, than others. Thus no religion will effect your progress at least in India.

A wonderful point you made, if we chose so then religion is neither an enabler nor an impediment, which means no need for us to be dogmatic about any religion, being liberal and tolerant is enough.


The fact is, if you are from a minority faith, your good work will be recognized faster & accordingly reward will be many fold better.

Interesting point, yes agree it gives a higher degree of VISIBILITY which comes with its own set of pros (good deeds recognized more) and cons (higher degree of scrutiny, need to consistently keep reproving oneself, lacking mass lobbying power (which partially can be overcame if a minority community has financial power, e.g. jews and parsi), and so on)


JUST AS THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE IN CONGRESS & BJP, SIMILARLY THERE IS NO BASIC DIFFERENCE IN ANY RELIGION.

All religion are same in the sense that they all have 3 parts:
1. Some timeless commonsense e.g. dont steal, dont hurt, etc. This COMMON SENSE can be followed WITHOUT BELIEVING IN ANY RELIGION.

2. Mithya/falsehood: Some stuff that has been outright proven wrong by the multitude of scientific discoveries e.g. there are no monkey-god MUTANTS (Hanuman, etc), no earth was not created 5000 years ago as Christianity and Islam claims and it is not a circular disk rather an almost spherical ball, etc. We must reject this crap written in all religious books.

3. Some myths: things that science, due to its current limits, unable to subject to rational evidence-based inquiry, with progressive advancement of science more and more things are (e..g from molecules to atoms, from atoms to nano-particles, our scientific understanding continues to become more granular and we are able to investigate newers things that we were not able to test before) can be tested, as a result this body of untested myth in religion will shrink as they scientifically get tested with future advancement of the science, and once tested either they will move to the first buckets (timeless commonsense that can be practiced without believing in superstition called religion) or the 2nd bucket (bull sh*t in religion).

All religions suggest that DO NOT ACCEPT WITHOUT FIRST TESTING, but they offer no RATIONALLY VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE-BASED means of testing of claims of religion's doctrines. Problem with religion is that science readily accepts what it does not know (vacuum in current knowledge) where as EACH RELIGION TRIES TO "AUTHORITATIVELY" EXPLAIN THE UNEXPLAINABLE (and untestable) with MYTHICAL BULL SH*T. When LOGIC stops, religion/faith begins i.e. religion is for the intellectually-lazy people who would readily accept myth as facts instead of work on overcoming deficiencies of the current scientific methods that will enable us to test the untestables in future. In the times of calamities or distress, people tend to seek the religion more, what they actually need is COUNSELORS and SUPPORT SYSTEM, not the myth and religious superstition and baba shabba, etc.

Without religion, we have one less religion to hate and kill each other. Religion by offering absurd mythical answers to the unknowns, acts as hindrance to the scientific exploration of the TRUTH. In that sense, religion is anti-FACT, thus propagation of any religion is partially (I use the term partially, because point-1 common sense is still valid knowledge) tries to keep us in dark.

Besides neurological studies have concluded that excessive belief in religion causes PERMANENT BRAIN DAMAGE TO HYPOCOMPUS REGION which is responsible for the RATIONAL AND ANALYTICAL REASONING, no wonder religious people fail to see the falsehood of their religion despite the scientific evidence to the contrary.

ALL RELIGION ARE BS, they are bogus unproven products, they are antithesis of their own doctrines, in reality they do opposite (hate, kill, divide, discriminate, tool for mass domination) of what they promise (love, freedom and peace) :)

So the best we could do is free ourselves from the OPIUM OF THE MASSES ... freedom from RELIGIOUS CONDITIONING that had been ingrained from childhood, ... even Swami Dayanand said "if in future things I taught do not hold the test of time and science, then discard those and evolve new"

So lets embark on the PURSUIT OF RATIONAL INQUIRY. No more baba, shabba, religion, etc.




Just as political parties all politicians are fooling the public, similarly through religions all contractors of religion are enjoying at the cost of the simple public. Since the religion is a way of life, why cannot we adopt our own way of life, a jat way of life where we do not even depend for small small things on selfish contractors of religion.

As per my knowledge, understanding & belief, Jas are . They have a different way of life with a different thinking & different practices, but today we are confused between jat, Hindu, Ariya samaj, Sikh & upto some exten muslim way of life due to varrious reasons. Lately, we are getting some blue colouring of christianity tooo.

I do not believe Jats (or others) are confused, these days people are EXPOSED TO MORE DIVERSE INFLUENCES including other religions, that does not make one confused. DIVERSITY IS GOOD, though a larger set of options makes the decision making harder.


Thus don't you think, we should adopt one way of life & that is our own jat way of life - which is simple, more suitable for us & if not better than any other way of life & on top of that we will get benefits of minority status too.



On a practical level, , y there will be not much of difference in our day today life, except that we will get rid of many useless practices & dependency on other people & at the same time we get few extra advantages of minority status.
Personally I believe that we should ask a tribe status beside minority faith. regards

We have enough religions to make us hate each other, we do not need more SH*T, no more religion. NO religion, means less wars and superstition. I also suggest that readers please peruse the WORLD VALUE SURVEY and SCHWARTS VALUE SURVEY, etc. These are multi-year longitudinal studies, that have concluded that there is an emerging patter, poorer nations believe more in superstition and religion, as nations gain more affluence they can afford education and their belief in religion and superstition reduces. Belief in religion is linked with affluence.

My wish for all JATs, TAMSO MA JYOTIR GAMYA, i.e. let there be no religion except humanity and freedom, WE DO NOT NEED ANY INSTITUTIONALIZED RELIGION, let there be NO RELIGION, ONLY AFFLUENCE (so that we can afford education, not religious indoctrination).

JATs it ......... raam raam :)

[Fateh]

Bhaio jat ne jat bana rehan dyo Wo bahut badi baat se. Rauj nayi thoery aur committee baithani thik nhi.

My suggestion came when mr Hawa singh, ex CRP, suggested that jats should adopt sikh religion, I do not want to change jat that is why my suggestion came, secondly, I do not consider Hindu, Muslim, christen, sikh etc as religion, these are social organisations, KARAM HI DHARAM HAE, SO JATS ARE ALREADY FOLLOWING THE REAL RELIGION, Benifits of jat religion--more unity, cooperation from muslim/sikh jats, all benifits of minority religion in our country, a seperate identity at international level, so brother my aim is not to change jats rather to make them strong jats

[upendersingh]

मुस्लिम धर्म को मानने वाले पैगंबर मोहम्मद साहब की छत्रछाया के नीचे हैं, ईसाई धर्म को मानने वाले ईसा मसीह के नीचे और जाट धर्म को मानने वाले आदरणीय कर्नल खर्ब के नीचे...बढ़िया है...लेकिन मुस्लिमों ने तो मस्जिद बनवाई, मोहम्मद साहब को सम्मान देने के लिए हज करते हैं, ईसाइयों ने भी चर्च बनवाए और ईसा मसीह को सम्मान देने के लिए क्रिसमस मनाते हैं...और तो और सिख गुरु नानक को और जैन महावीर को सम्मान देने के लिए तरह-तरह के आयोजन करते हैं। जाट धर्म को मानने वाले इस दिशा में क्या कर रहे हैं??? यदि जाट धर्मी इस दिशा में कुछ नहीं करेंगे तो फिर जाट धर्म अपनाने के इच्छुक अन्य लोग इस धर्म के प्रति कैसे आकर्षित होंगे???

[Fateh]

मुस्लिम धर्म को मानने वाले पैगंबर मोहम्मद साहब की छत्रछाया के नीचे हैं, ईसाई धर्म को मानने वाले ईसा मसीह के नीचे और जाट धर्म को मानने वाले आदरणीय कर्नल खर्ब के नीचे...बढ़िया है...लेकिन मुस्लिमों ने तो मस्जिद बनवाई, मोहम्मद साहब को सम्मान देने के लिए हज करते हैं, ईसाइयों ने भी चर्च बनवाए और ईसा मसीह को सम्मान देने के लिए क्रिसमस मनाते हैं...और तो और सिख गुरु नानक को और जैन महावीर को सम्मान देने के लिए तरह-तरह के आयोजन करते हैं। जाट धर्म को मानने वाले इस दिशा में क्या कर रहे हैं??? यदि जाट धर्मी इस दिशा में कुछ नहीं करेंगे तो फिर जाट धर्म अपनाने के इच्छुक अन्य लोग इस धर्म के प्रति कैसे आकर्षित होंगे???

Brother, no desire to be head of jat religion but I want serve the community as much as I can, even brother we call maha sevak in our khanp instead of president, from my childhood I believe in serving people, I wish that all religious functions should be organised/controlled in our community by our people, we should not waste money and remain slave of few people of perticular community, your kind suggestion would be taken care at correct time, jats would be performing most of ceremony as done now with some useful changes wich jats believe/practice even now

[DrRajpalSingh]

A very interesting discussion initiated by Narender Kharb on whether the Jats are strictly Hindus or not had attracted the attention of the veterans of the site to participate in it. It requires revisit by the new comers like us to understand the Jat psyche in proper perspective as to what is the real position of the Jats regarding their religious moorings.

[maddhan1979]

These so called Buddhijivi Jats, should first know who is Hindu and what is Hinduism:
(Following are the excerpts of my reply when somebody asked my credentials of being Hindu, if I believe in Arya Samaj)

Hindu or Hinduism is absent from the early sacred litrature of Indian origin.
The actual term “Hindu” first appeared as an Old Persian geographical term (derived from the river Sindhu), to identify the people who lived beyond the River Indus.
“Hindu” became equivalent to anybody of “Indian” origin who was not otherwise belonging to a religion of Abrahamic denomination, thereby encompassing a wide range of religious beliefs and practices.
One of the accepted views is that “ism” was added to “Hindu” around 1830 to denote the culture and religion of the high-caste Brahmans in contrast to other religions.
In 1995, Chief Justice P. B. Gajendragadkar was quoted in an Indian Supreme Court ruling:"When we think of the Hindu religion, unlike other religions in the world, the Hindu religion does not claim any one prophet; it does not worship any one god; it does not subscribe to any one dogma; it does not believe in any one philosophic concept; it does not follow any one set of religious rites or performances; in fact, it does not appear to satisfy the narrow traditional features of any religion or creed. It may broadly be described as a way of life and nothing more."
Hinduism differs from Christianity and other Western religions in that it does not have a single founder, a specific theological system, a single system of morality, or a central religious organization. It consists of "thousands of different religious groups that have evolved in India since 1500 BC".
Most forms of Hinduism are henotheistic religions. They recognize a single deity, and view other Gods and Goddesses as manifestations or aspects of that supreme God. Henotheistic and polytheistic religions have traditionally been among the world's most religiously tolerant faiths.




There is a word called "Hind".

Anyone living in the land of "Hind" is called "Hindustani" but the word "Hindustani" does not state any one "religion".

There is no religion as "Hindustani".

[upendersingh]

Brother, no desire to be head of jat religion but I want serve the community as much as I can, even brother we call maha sevak in our khanp instead of president, from my childhood I believe in serving people, I wish that all religious functions should be organised/controlled in our community by our people, we should not waste money and remain slave of few people of perticular community, your kind suggestion would be taken care at correct time, jats would be performing most of ceremony as done now with some useful changes wich jats believe/practice even now

You are true, Sir. I have got new proof. It is Honourable Narender Kharb Ji who gave the idea of Jat Dharam even before you, dated 6 August 2009 (Link (http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?28116-Sorry-not-Hindus-Religion-of-Jats/page3/#42)). So he is the chieftain. Here is that post :




To cut a long story short Khap heads wanted to make it clear that we were First Vedic Dharmi than Buddhist we have certain customs and traditions that are our own and we value them.So far you don't interfere in our affairs we have no problem with you.However we were never formerly inducted in Hinduism from Buddhist past .So laws made for general Hindus does not hold good for us .This does not mean that Jat Khaps declared themselves as Buddhists but some were saying we are Vedic Dharmi different from Sanatni Hinduists and some thought of making our own religion ,in-fact Intellectual and KHAPS ARE VERY DIVIDED ON THIS ISSUE .What I predict is they are going to declare themselves as Vedic Dharmis different from from Brahmanical or Sanatani version of Hinduism and later who knows we may see rise of a Jat Dharam.:)

[DrRajpalSingh]

To my mind, the members of the site by and large have become members of the site on the condition that they are Hindu Jats.

Isn't so !

[DrRajpalSingh]

Jats are more liberal, unorthodox and tolerant as regards their religious moorings but they cannot deny that they do not profess Hinduism. At the present juncture, there is no such religion as can be designated as Jat Dharma but about future who can predict Jat Dharma may be a reality if its protagonists seriously continue their efforts to give it sound theoretical foundation.

[jatofbhiwani]

Bahio jitni Marji apney ney Hindu keh lo, Hum Hindu Koni! Na there is any identity for us in Hindu religion. That's the reason majority of Jats embraced Sikhism and have a separate identity! Our way of living is more Vedic and close to principles of Sikhism!

[AryanPoonia]

If Hindu Dharm means way of life then the meaning of Jat dharm should be the same. There is no one name for Hindu religion, therefore there is no harm accepting jatizm as the name of religion. No need to change the religion just change the name. We should start a new tradition of using JAT as a surname. There is no need for any master for the sect. Jat dharm needs only freedom of thinking and faith in God.

[upendersingh]

इस थ्रेड का जो शीर्षक है, वह भ्रामक है...Sorry not Hindus ...Religion of Jats...हिंदू क्या किसी की खुशामद कर रहे हैं कि खुद को हिंदू मानो? मेरा ख्याल है जाट धर्म के संस्थापक आदरणीय नरेंद्र खर्ब अपने अनुयायी जाटों को सही मार्ग दिखाएंगे...भले ही अभी खर्ब साहब के इन अनुयाइयों की संख्या उंगली पर गिनने लायक है, लेकिन उम्मीद की जानी चाहिए कि ये अपने जाट धर्म का पूरा सम्मान करेंगे और जिस प्रकार ईसाई जीसस क्राइस्ट को, मुस्लिम पैगंबर मोहम्मद को, बौद्ध गौतम बुद्ध को और सिख गुरु नानक को सम्मान देते हैं, उसी प्रकार खर्ब साहब के अनुयायी उनको यथोचित सम्मान देंगे। तभी तो जाट धर्म का नाम होगा और मेरे जैसे स्वाभिमानी हिंदू भी जाट धर्म के बारे में सोचना शुरू करेंगे। यदि जाट धर्म को मानने वाले खुद को गुरु मंत्र देने वाले गुरु के प्रति शीश नहीं झुकाते तो खर्ब साहब को ऐसे लोगों को जाट धर्म से बाहर का रास्ता दिखा देना चाहिए। जाट धर्म को मानने वाले खर्ब साहब की छत्रछाया के नीचे हैं, यदि वे ऐसा नहीं मानते तो वे गद्दार हैं, जो जीवन में कभी किसी का अहसान मानेंगे ही नहीं। ऐसे लोगों के कुछ भी कहने का कोई महत्त्व नहीं होता, लेकिन खर्ब साहब जैसे महापुरुषों का हृदय बहुत बड़ा होता है और वे तुच्छ प्राणियों से भी कोई वैर नहीं रखते।

[DrRajpalSingh]

इस थ्रेड का जो शीर्षक है, वह भ्रामक है...sorry not hindus ...religion of jats...हिंदू क्या किसी की खुशामद कर रहे हैं कि खुद को हिंदू मानो? मेरा ख्याल है जाट धर्म के संस्थापक आदरणीय नरेंद्र खर्ब अपने अनुयायी जाटों को सही मार्ग दिखाएंगे...भले ही अभी खर्ब साहब के इन अनुयाइयों की संख्या उंगली पर गिनने लायक है, लेकिन उम्मीद की जानी चाहिए कि ये अपने जाट धर्म का पूरा सम्मान करेंगे और जिस प्रकार ईसाई जीसस क्राइस्ट को, मुस्लिम पैगंबर मोहम्मद को, बौद्ध गौतम बुद्ध को और सिख गुरु नानक को सम्मान देते हैं, उसी प्रकार खर्ब साहब के अनुयायी उनको यथोचित सम्मान देंगे। तभी तो जाट धर्म का नाम होगा और मेरे जैसे स्वाभिमानी हिंदू भी जाट धर्म के बारे में सोचना शुरू करेंगे। यदि जाट धर्म को मानने वाले खुद को गुरु मंत्र देने वाले गुरु के प्रति शीश नहीं झुकाते तो खर्ब साहब को ऐसे लोगों को जाट धर्म से बाहर का रास्ता दिखा देना चाहिए। जाट धर्म को मानने वाले खर्ब साहब की छत्रछाया के नीचे हैं, यदि वे ऐसा नहीं मानते तो वे गद्दार हैं, जो जीवन में कभी किसी का अहसान मानेंगे ही नहीं। ऐसे लोगों के कुछ भी कहने का कोई महत्त्व नहीं होता, लेकिन खर्ब साहब जैसे महापुरुषों का हृदय बहुत बड़ा होता है और वे तुच्छ प्राणियों से भी कोई वैर नहीं रखते।

Aap har kisi ko bahar ka rasta dikhane ka guru mantra bahut siddat se bantate ho. Kisi ko to baksh do bhai !!

[upendersingh]

Aap har kisi ko bahar ka rasta dikhane ka guru mantra bahut siddat se bantate ho. Kisi ko to baksh do bhai !!

डियर फ्रेंड डॉ. जांघू, मैं किसी को बाहर का रास्ता दिखाने वाला कौन होता हूं? मैं आपसे पूछता हूं कि यदि जाट धर्म का अस्तित्व माना जाए तो क्या आदरणीय नरेंद्र खर्ब को कोई श्रेय नहीं जाना चाहिए? आइडिया (गुरुमंत्र) देना बहुत मायने रखता है। यदि आपको कुछ नागवार गुजरा हो तो कृपया बताएं, आगे से ऐसा कहना बंद कर देंगे।

[DrRajpalSingh]

डियर फ्रेंड डॉ. जांघू, मैं किसी को बाहर का रास्ता दिखाने वाला कौन होता हूं? मैं आपसे पूछता हूं कि यदि जाट धर्म का अस्तित्व माना जाए तो क्या आदरणीय नरेंद्र खर्ब को कोई श्रेय नहीं जाना चाहिए? आइडिया (गुरुमंत्र) देना बहुत मायने रखता है। यदि आपको कुछ नागवार गुजरा हो तो कृपया बताएं, आगे से ऐसा कहना बंद कर देंगे।

Aap Hindu dharma kee vartamaan halaat per koi tippni kare to use Hindu Dharma chhodne kee salah dete rahate hain !

Abhi 'Jat Dharma' naam ka koi sangthan bana bhi nahin to wohi baat aap yahan kah rahe ho, isliya mujhe uprokat tippani karane ko mazboor hona pada !!

Friend, Yah baat to aap bi manenge kee Shreya dena alag baat hai aur bahar ka rashta batane ki slah dena alag baat hai ! Baaki Shri Karb ko aap kya dete hain aur woh aap se kya lete hain woh aap donon behatr jano !

[DrRajpalSingh]

Could anybody throw light on the social standing of Jats in the Hindu society today as per caste code prescribed by Manu and followed by us on the following two points, please:

Is the standing of Jats in the Hindu society equal to DWIJS or Sudras as per code of Manu and why it is so or to say what makes them to be counted among the dwijs or sudras and if not, then why not ?

or in other words, are they accepted as equal to Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vaisyas or sudras. and; why they are considered to belong to one group and not to the other group !

Kindly extend help to solve the puzzle and oblige.

[AbhikRana]

Sir,

Please elaborate how does being a Jat according to you puts you at a disadvantage in the present day scheme of things?

1. Are you not allowed to apply for any job?
2. Are you stopped from applying to any educational course?
3. Are Jats stopped from visiting temples?
4. Are Jats not allowed to celebrate festivals?

How are Jats treated as Shudras in the present day?


Could anybody throw light on the social standing of Jats in the Hindu society today as per caste code prescribed by Manu and followed by us on the following two points, please:

Is the standing of Jats in the Hindu society equal to DWIJS or Sudras as per code of Manu and why it is so or to say what makes them to be counted among the dwijs or sudras and if not, then why not ?

or in other words, are they accepted as equal to Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vaisyas or sudras. and; why they are considered to belong to one group and not to the other group !

Kindly extend help to solve the puzzle and oblige.

[narenderkharb]

​

डियर फ्रेंड डॉ. जांघू, मैं किसी को बाहर का रास्ता दिखाने वाला कौन होता हूं? मैं आपसे पूछता हूं कि यदि जाट धर्म का अस्तित्व माना जाए तो क्या आदरणीय नरेंद्र खर्ब को कोई श्रेय नहीं जाना चाहिए? आइडिया (गुरुमंत्र) देना बहुत मायने रखता है। यदि आपको कुछ नागवार गुजरा हो तो कृपया बताएं, आगे से ऐसा कहना बंद कर देंगे।

अनुज उपेंदर का अघाद प्रेम व श्रद्दा देख कर मेरा हर्दय गद गद हो गया​ है!

, जहाँ तक जाट धरम का विषय है वो किसी की बपोती नहीं है जो कोई किसी को उसमे शामिल करे या निकल सके ,जाट धरम तो हर उस जाट का है जिसने brahmanical हिंदूइस्म को नहीं अपनाया!


मुझे लगता है पंज प्यारो की तरह जाट धरम में पहला कन्वर्शन उपेंदर भाई जी करना पड़ेगा!

[narenderkharb]

कुछ ओर पूछा गया था आप से..


Sir,

Please elaborate how does being a Jat according to you puts you at a disadvantage in the present day scheme of things?

1. Are you not allowed to apply for any job?
2. Are you stopped from applying to any educational course?
3. Are Jats stopped from visiting temples?
4. Are Jats not allowed to celebrate festivals?

How are Jats treated as Shudras in the present day?





social standing of Jats in the Hindu society today as per caste code prescribed by Manu ????

[RKhatkar]

What I predict is they are going to declare themselves as Vedic Dharmis different from from Brahmanical or Sanatani version of Hinduism and later who knows we may see rise of a Jat Dharam.file:///C:/DOCUME~1/Admin/LOCALS~1/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.gif

मेरा ख्याल है जाट धर्म के संस्थापक आदरणीय नरेंद्र खर्ब अपने अनुयायी जाटों को सही मार्ग दिखाएंगे...

Mr Kharb has no where taken credit to start JAT Dharm, it’s the interpreter who has made the sense in his own way. The words ‘I predict'and ‘later who Knows'used in the sentence in question have their separate sense. Further, Mr Kharb has shown patience on the issue. All expect proper respect words from fellow members.

Thanks

[AbhikRana]

And what did the so called majority Jats achieve by adopting Sikhism????

Is Sikhism equal or equivalent to Jatism????

Do Jats enjoy a special status or position as per Guru Granth Sahib in Sikhism????

What special status you want in Hinduism????

How is our way of living close to principles of Sikhism???? Please elaborate.


Bahio jitni Marji apney ney Hindu keh lo, Hum Hindu Koni! Na there is any identity for us in Hindu religion. That's the reason majority of Jats embraced Sikhism and have a separate identity! Our way of living is more Vedic and close to principles of Sikhism!

[AbhikRana]

Sir, With all due respect to you, respect is two way street and not a one way street. Upender has not shown any disrespect to any member.


What I predict is they are going to declare themselves as Vedic Dharmis different from from Brahmanical or Sanatani version of Hinduism and later who knows we may see rise of a Jat Dharam.file:///C:/DOCUME~1/Admin/LOCALS~1/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.gif

मेरा ख्याल है जाट धर्म के संस्थापक आदरणीय नरेंद्र खर्ब अपने अनुयायी जाटों को सही मार्ग दिखाएंगे...

Mr Kharb has no where taken credit to start JAT Dharm, it’s the interpreter who has made the sense in his own way. The words ‘I predict'and ‘later who Knows'used in the sentence in question have their separate sense. Further, Mr Kharb has shown patience on the issue. All expect proper respect words from fellow members.

Thanks

[ygulia]

It will be better if you talk about yourselves. I do not think you have any right to talk on behalf of Jat Community as whole.


Bahio jitni Marji apney ney Hindu keh lo, Hum Hindu Koni! Na there is any identity for us in Hindu religion. That's the reason majority of Jats embraced Sikhism and have a separate identity! Our way of living is more Vedic and close to principles of Sikhism!

[upendersingh]

Aap Hindu dharma kee vartamaan halaat per koi tippni kare to use Hindu Dharma chhodne kee salah dete rahate hain ! Abhi 'Jat Dharma' naam ka koi sangthan bana bhi nahin to wohi baat aap yahan kah rahe ho, isliya mujhe uprokat tippani karane ko mazboor hona pada !! Friend, Yah baat to aap bi manenge kee Shreya dena alag baat hai aur bahar ka rashta batane ki slah dena alag baat hai ! Baaki Shri Karb ko aap kya dete hain aur woh aap se kya lete hain woh aap donon behatr jano ! जिन्हें हिंदू धर्म में तमाम बुराइयां नजर आती हैं, उन्हें ऐसा कहने में क्या गलत है कि ऐसा है तो फिर हिंदू धर्म छोड़ दो...? यदि खर्ब साहब ने कोई आइडिया दिया है तो उनको श्रेय मिलना चाहिए...मैं तो उन्हें शुभकामनाएं देता हूं।

[upendersingh]

​ अनुज उपेंदर का अघाद प्रेम व श्रद्दा देख कर मेरा हर्दय गद गद हो गया​ है! , जहाँ तक जाट धरम का विषय है वो किसी की बपोती नहीं है जो कोई किसी को उसमे शामिल करे या निकल सके ,जाट धरम तो हर उस जाट का है जिसने brahmanical हिंदूइस्म को नहीं अपनाया! मुझे लगता है पंज प्यारो की तरह जाट धरम में पहला कन्वर्शन उपेंदर भाई जी करना पड़ेगा! आदरणीय खर्ब साहब, जब आपने जाट धर्म की नींव रख ही दी है तो फिर दूसरे धर्मों की नक़ल हर्गिज न कीजिएगा। सिख धर्म में जाटों की हैसियत महज सेवकों की है और संख्या बल भी 20 % के आस-पास ही है। फिर 500 साल बीतने पर भी महज 3 करोड़ लोगों ने ही सिख धर्म को अपनाया। आपके द्वारा स्थापित जाट धर्म में तो अभी उंगलियों पर गिनने लायक ही अनुयायी हैं। वैसे आपको बधाई हो कि जाट धर्म में पहला क्या, दूसरा और तीसरा कनवर्जन भी हो चुका है। मैं प्रमाण दे सकता हूं। जहां तक मेरा सवाल है तो मैं अभी 'देखो और इंतजार करो' की नीति अपनाए हुए हूं और अभी मैंने इस बारे में सोचना भी शुरू नहीं किया, क्योंकि मुझे एक संदेह यह भी है कि यदि जाट धर्म को मानने वालों ने अपने इस धर्म को बढ़ाने के सतत प्रयास नहीं किए तो कहीं ऐसा न हो कि इस जाट धर्म का हश्र भी सम्राट अकबर के दीन-ए-इलाही और राजा महेंद्र प्रताप के प्रेम धर्म की तरह न हो कि बस संस्थापक ही अनुयायी बनकर रह जाए या बस उंगली पर लोग ही अनुयायी बनें।

[upendersingh]

What I predict is they are going to declare themselves as Vedic Dharmis different from from Brahmanical or Sanatani version of Hinduism and later who knows we may see rise of a Jat Dharam.file:///C:/DOCUME~1/Admin/LOCALS~1/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.gif मेरा ख्याल है जाट धर्म के संस्थापक आदरणीय नरेंद्र खर्ब अपने अनुयायी जाटों को सही मार्ग दिखाएंगे... Mr Kharb has no where taken credit to start JAT Dharm, it’s the interpreter who has made the sense in his own way. The words ‘I predict'and ‘later who Knows'used in the sentence in question have their separate sense. Further, Mr Kharb has shown patience on the issue. All expect proper respect words from fellow members. Thanks Respected Khatkar Ji, suppose if in a village some honourable Mr. X suggests that the village needs a community centre and who knows in future this dream comes true. Then after some time some honourable Mr. Y says to the villagers that come let's make a community centre and then villagers start joining the campaign. Then can Mr. X's suggestion be avoided? He gave the idea. He began the campaign. He is the reason behind all this. Now its his followers' duty to promote his idea further so that other people can associate themselves with it. That's what I meant.

[DrRajpalSingh]

I had put the following question/s before the readers for discussion:


Could anybody throw light on the social standing of Jats in the Hindu society today as per caste code prescribed by Manu and followed by us on the following two points, please:

Is the standing of Jats in the Hindu society equal to DWIJS or Sudras as per code of Manu and why it is so or to say what makes them to be counted among the dwijs or sudras and if not, then why not ?

or in other words, are they accepted as equal to Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vaisyas or sudras. and; why they are considered to belong to one group and not to the other group !

Kindly extend help to solve the puzzle and oblige.

And received back, instead of reply to any of them, another wonderful bunch of questions in the form of the post quoted below :


Sir,

Please elaborate how does being a Jat according to you puts you at a disadvantage in the present day scheme of things?

1. Are you not allowed to apply for any job?
2. Are you stopped from applying to any educational course?
3. Are Jats stopped from visiting temples?
4. Are Jats not allowed to celebrate festivals?

How are Jats treated as Shudras in the present day?

Find for yourselves how the topic is being twisted to suit the convenience of the protagonists of one stream of Hinduism which tries to keep the Brahmanical hegemony on the society intact !

In all fairness of rules of discussion either the answer to the questions raised may be addressed or those points which I have not said and put here in my name, must be withdrawn.

[upendersingh]

Could anybody throw light on the social standing of Jats in the Hindu society today as per caste code prescribed by Manu and followed by us on the following two points, please:

Is the standing of Jats in the Hindu society equal to DWIJS or Sudras as per code of Manu and why it is so or to say what makes them to be counted among the dwijs or sudras and if not, then why not ?

or in other words, are they accepted as equal to Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vaisyas or sudras. and; why they are considered to belong to one group and not to the other group !

Kindly extend help to solve the puzzle and oblige.

Dear friend Dr. Janghu, was Manu a god? Or was Manu Smriti dictated by some divine power? We were under British rule, but we got independence in 1947. In same way there were some evils in Hinduism, but we have got rid of them. Manu Smriti was written as a text presenting itself as a discourse given by Manu, but that is a history now. Why don't you concentrate on constitution of India? According to that the new caste order is : General, OBC, SC and ST. A Manu Smriti is like a gospel truth to you, but you don't believe in constitution, which has also been WRITTEN by someone. And forget that order Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vaisyas or Sudras. Come out of pre-independence era. We Jats are in General category, but we want to join OBC and furthermore SC category, but other people have sued us to prove in court that we don't deserve OBC or SC, but we deserve General category. Doesn't any supreme court case matter to you? And one more thing. New caste order is quite perfect. Who are in SC or ST category, they are availing reservation and General and OBC category people want to be in SC/ST. If they are in top category, then they avail less reservation. Now who cares who the rubbish this Manu was?

[AbhikRana]

Sir, how is the Manu smriti relevant today??? According to Manu smriti society was divided on the basis of the work that members of a particular class did. For example, a cobblers son could only become a cobbler, a barber's son a barber, etc.

But today a cobbler's son is an IAS officer or a Judge and in front of whom people like you and me have to bow. You can no longer call the SC/ST by the names that our ancestors used to call them. It is illegal.

How is Manu smriti relevant today? Your two questions above are not relevant AT ALL in today's context. Instead of highlighting problems of the past which no longer exist we have to focus on the present and the future.


I had put the following question/s before the readers for discussion:



And received back, instead of reply to any of them, another wonderful bunch of questions in the form of the post quoted below :



Find for yourselves how the topic is being twisted to suit the convenience of the protagonists of one stream of Hinduism which tries to keep the Brahmanical hegemony on the society intact !

In all fairness of rules of discussion either the answer to the questions raised may be addressed or those points which I have not said and put here in my name, must be withdrawn.

[DrRajpalSingh]

Sir, how is the Manu smriti relevant today??? According to Manu smriti society was divided on the basis of the work that members of a particular class did. For example, a cobblers son could only become a cobbler, a barber's son a barber, etc.

But today a cobbler's son is an IAS officer or a Judge and in front of whom people like you and me have to bow. You can no longer call the SC/ST by the names that our ancestors used to call them. It is illegal.

How is Manu smriti relevant today? Your two questions above are not relevant AT ALL in today's context. Instead of highlighting problems of the past which no longer exist we have to focus on the present and the future.

You have inadvertently admitted that the system of castes established by Manu on the basis of one's birth in a particular caste, continues as pointed out by you in the example of cobbler's son. This is enough to prove the prevalence of Manuwadi caste system in the present Indian society.

So long this past lingers on to cling to our present social hierarchy the questions posed by me are very much relevant and also the future of coming generations of ours can well be imagined.

So agreed, we must have to focus on the present and the future of the caste system in our beloved Hindu Dharma !

[DrRajpalSingh]

Dear friend Dr. Janghu, was Manu a god? Or was Manu Smriti dictated by some divine power? We were under British rule, but we got independence in 1947. In same way there were some evils in Hinduism, but we have got rid of them. Manu Smriti was written as a text presenting itself as a discourse given by Manu, but that is a history now. Why don't you concentrate on constitution of India? According to that the new caste order is : General, OBC, SC and ST. A Manu Smriti is like a gospel truth to you, but you don't believe in constitution, which has also been WRITTEN by someone. And forget that order Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vaisyas or Sudras. Come out of pre-independence era. We Jats are in General category, but we want to join OBC and furthermore SC category, but other people have sued us to prove in court that we don't deserve OBC or SC, but we deserve General category. Doesn't any supreme court case matter to you? And one more thing. New caste order is quite perfect. Who are in SC or ST category, they are availing reservation and General and OBC category people want to be in SC/ST. If they are in top category, then they avail less reservation. Now who cares who the rubbish this Manu was?

Friend,

I have a little knowledge about Manu and am anxious to learn more about him from the enlightened participants like you by means of joining discussion. Kindly keep up sharing your accumulated knowledge.

You are right in agreeing that the Hindu caste system based on Manu Smiriti has been accorded constitutional validity by incorporating the provision for including certain castes in ST group, others in SC and so on in BC/OBC/SBC etc.etc.

Isn't it so that existing castes constitute this broader categorization of the Hindus under new constitutional provisions !

Whom they refers to in your post: ''If they are in top category, then they avail less reservation. Now who cares who the rubbish this Manu was? "

Another question has arisen in my mind : Do you really believe that Manu or his thought was 'rubbush!'

Thanks and best wishes

[DrRajpalSingh]

जिन्हें हिंदू धर्म में तमाम बुराइयां नजर आती हैं, उन्हें ऐसा कहने में क्या गलत है कि ऐसा है तो फिर हिंदू धर्म छोड़ दो...? यदि खर्ब साहब ने कोई आइडिया दिया है तो उनको श्रेय मिलना चाहिए...मैं तो उन्हें शुभकामनाएं देता हूं।

Friend,

There is difference between saying full to the brim with Total Evils and pointing out a few shortcomings.

To point out shortcomings is not wrong in a democratic system and the History of the growth and development of what we know and follow today as 'Hinduism' is enough to testify religious reform movements through which it has passed and has assimilated the good points raised from time to time by the reformers.

So kindly try to overcome self created 'iron wall' to protect Hindu dharma and learn the value of democratic discussion in which issues plaguing our Hindu society today that need to be addressed at the earliest to free it from self appointed 'gods' of many hues and colours and many other self appointed guardians who do not permit discussion on various issues !

Thanks

[AbhikRana]

Sir, where is Manu wadi system prevalent in today's society?????

Who forces a farmer's son to be a farmer, a cobbler's son to be a cobbler, a driver's son to be a driver?????? A farmer's son/daughter is today a doctor, engineer, IAS/IPS.

Manu wadi caste system today???

Why are we focusing on something (Manu wad) which does not exist today?




You have inadvertently admitted that the system of castes established by Manu on the basis of one's birth in a particular caste, continues as pointed out by you in the example of cobbler's son. This is enough to prove the prevalence of Manuwadi caste system in the present Indian society.

So long this past lingers on to cling to our present social hierarchy the questions posed by me are very much relevant and also the future of coming generations of ours can well be imagined.

So agreed, we must have to focus on the present and the future of the caste system in our beloved Hindu Dharma !

[DrRajpalSingh]

Sir, where is Manu wadi system prevalent in today's society?????

Who forces a farmer's son to be a farmer, a cobbler's son to be a cobbler, a driver's son to be a driver?????? A farmer's son/daughter is today a doctor, engineer, IAS/IPS.

Manu wadi caste system today???

Why are we focusing on something (Manu wad) which does not exist today?

Thanks, I stand enlightened by your unending exhortions to accept what you say and also on my failure to get straight reply to simple questions put to you, so I quit !

Wish you good command on Hinduism in future !

[maddhan1979]

There is lot of hue and cry based on religion and other related context.

Let us look how things have progressed by sidelining the main development process by political system using the concept of religion.

Lot of parties taking the shadow of dalits, down trodden, poor people and so on have gathered huge amount of money without even bothering to open a single hospital, free education systems, etc. for the so called dalits, down trodden and poor people.

The fact of the matter is that there are lot of people who are poor, down trodden, etc. but what do they need?

Their basic needs are related with education, housing, health, etc. Throughout ages political parties have created huge monetary empires in the name of these people and other social groups.

Lot of this money is invested by these political parties out of India in name of charities(which are not true charities, its just a way of safeguarding their money), whereas the need of investment by the moto of these political parties which have risen on behalf of downtrodden, poor people should have been for these people in India itself, which never happened.

[maddhan1979]

There is lot of hue and cry based on religion and other related context.

Let us look how things have progressed by sidelining the main development process by political system using the concept of religion.

Lot of parties taking the shadow of dalits, down trodden, poor people and so on have gathered huge amount of money without even bothering to open a single hospital, free education systems, etc. for the so called dalits, down trodden and poor people.

The fact of the matter is that there are lot of people who are poor, down trodden, etc. but what do they need?

Their basic needs are related with education, housing, health, etc. Throughout ages political parties have created huge monetary empires in the name of these people and other social groups.

Lot of this money is invested by these political parties out of India in name of charities(which are not true charities, its just a way of safeguarding their money), whereas the need of investment by the moto of these political parties which have risen on behalf of downtrodden, poor people should have been for these people in India itself, which never happened.

If there has been some charity work done it has been done mostly by "Christian Missionaries" by opening schools, etc. Which can be seen throughout the country. Interesting fact is most of these schools impart education based on science, arts, etc. as per the curriculum and are not based on religious ideologies of schools.

[AbhikRana]

Sir, Your questions might be simple, but are they relevant?

Your questions are based on your perception that the so-called Manu wad is prevalent in the society and is affecting you (community) adversely.

Whereas I say that in today's context, there is no such thing as Manuwad. What reply can there be to your questions when there is no Manuwad existing today.

And that is the reason I had requested you to kindly highlight as to how is Manu smriti or Manu wad affecting you adversely TODAY????? Are you stopped from applying for any jobs or for educational courses? You can study the educational stream of your choice and join a profession of your choice as long as you are intelligent enough to qualify for it. How is Manu wad stopping you????? It is beyond my comprehension.

But if you still insist that your questions are not being answered, I have to admit that they can never be answered because they are based on a premise that does not exist in the first place.


Thanks, I stand enlightened by your unending exhortions to accept what you say and also on my failure to get straight reply to simple questions put to you, so I quit !

Wish you good command on Hinduism in future !

[VirJ]

Sorry not Hindus ...Religion of Jats (http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?28116-Sorry-not-Hindus-Religion-of-Jats/page8) ?

What does this mean? Some people try to distance themself from being Hindu so they can convniently put all the historic blames on rest of the Hindus. They say they were brave, great but it was Hindus because of whom they were enslaved or some even say they were never enslaved even Mughals were scared of them (They were scared but they still ruled ?)

They want to change the history and hence lots of fake arguments otherwise present they can easily change by converting to some other religion or start their own religion. And first step toward that would be to leave this site who only allow entry to Hindu Jats ?

[DrRajpalSingh]

Sir, Your questions might be simple, but are they relevant?

Your questions are based on your perception that the so-called Manu wad is prevalent in the society and is affecting you (community) adversely.

Whereas I say that in today's context, there is no such thing as Manuwad. What reply can there be to your questions when there is no Manuwad existing today.

And that is the reason I had requested you to kindly highlight as to how is Manu smriti or Manu wad affecting you adversely TODAY????? Are you stopped from applying for any jobs or for educational courses? You can study the educational stream of your choice and join a profession of your choice as long as you are intelligent enough to qualify for it. How is Manu wad stopping you????? It is beyond my comprehension.

But if you still insist that your questions are not being answered, I have to admit that they can never be answered because they are based on a premise that does not exist in the first place.

What harm do you see in admitting the fact that caste system based on the Manu code is still prevalent in our society and causing a lot of heart burning among the so called upper, middle and lower castes who want to enjoy benefits granted to various castes of Hindu society categorized as SC/ST/OBC etc. but cannot be included in the reservation category due to the reason that they do not fall in the category which specifies that only designated castes can be included. everyone knows that this new type of reservation has one fundamental qualification i.e. the caste of the beneficiary is and other things come later ! If this fundamental fact is not admitted by any person involved in the discussion, then what is the use of go on writing without any rhyme and reason. Reservation based on any other criteria like religion has already been rejected by the highest courts of the land who recognise caste as its main criteria. Isn't so. Then how do you say that there is no impact of Manu code today.

Reservation in India for admissions or in entry for jobs is purely based on caste system and so long this reservation policy continues none can deny presence of the Manu code in Indian Hindu society and also polity !

If I am wrong kindly tell me what is the criterion of our beloved reservation policy caste system or not !

Either one has to admit it or deny it with logical arguments which you do not seem to do either way. That is why I had surrendered my right to involve in the discussion with you !

Even now I want to read what you say on the prevalence of caste system in our beloved Hindu Society and the place of Jats in social hierarchy in it ! Are they considered as equal to Brahmins in the administration of religious affairs and management of temples in India !

[DrRajpalSingh]

If there has been some charity work done it has been done mostly by "Christian Missionaries" by opening schools, etc. Which can be seen throughout the country. Interesting fact is most of these schools impart education based on science, arts, etc. as per the curriculum and are not based on religious ideologies of schools.

And what about schools and colleges run by DAV Mgt., Santan Dharm Sabha, Jains, Sikhs et all in India and abroad !

[AbhikRana]

Sir, though Manu code does not exist today and since it does not exist, it does not affect us adversely or otherwise, if it makes you happy I would say that it exists and we are being victimized. I hope now you will be satisfied that I have accepted it.

You are mixing too many issues at the same time with the so called Manu code. Now you have brought in the discussion the reservation system.

Reservation system was not introduced because of the Manuwadi system, but because the founding fathers of the INDIAN CONSTITUTION felt that the downtrodden people from a few castes who were historically a disadvantaged lot and hence, educationally and socially backward needed affirmative action on part of the state (country). According to you Manu code was made by the Brahmins to benefit themselves at the cost of other castes. How did reservations benefit the Brahmins?????

You say that reservations is based on Manu code and at the same time the fact is that the writers of Manu code i.e. the Brahmins are not benefitted by reservation. This in itself is a big contradiction. How did the brahmins benefit by giving reservations to SC/ST and the OBCs????? Still you say it is Manuwad.

On the one hand you complain that Brahmins put us in the backward castes/shudras and on the other NOW we (you) fought to put us (yourself) in the Backward (OBC) category. What can be a bigger contradiction??

Though it is true that the administration of religious affairs and management of temples in India is done by Brahmins (and also the govt. through trusts/boards), how does it affect you personally or as a community?????

I am yet to get a clear cut answer from you as to how you are being VICTIMISED TODAY by this Manu code. Are you not given admissions in schools/colleges? Are you not able to apply for the profession/career of your choice? Please elaborate. You have till now not provided anything about the victimization aspect of Jats by Manu code in today's times. You are just raising an issue (though it is not existent) but not providing the specifics.


What harm do you see in admitting the fact that caste system based on the Manu code is still prevalent in our society and causing a lot of heart burning among the so called upper, middle and lower castes who want to enjoy benefits granted to various castes of Hindu society categorized as SC/ST/OBC etc. but cannot be included in the reservation category due to the reason that they do not fall in the category which specifies that only designated castes can be included. everyone knows that this new type of reservation has one fundamental qualification i.e. the caste of the beneficiary is and other things come later ! If this fundamental fact is not admitted by any person involved in the discussion, then what is the use of go on writing without any rhyme and reason. Reservation based on any other criteria like religion has already been rejected by the highest courts of the land who recognise caste as its main criteria. Isn't so. Then how do you say that there is no impact of Manu code today.

Reservation in India for admissions or in entry for jobs is purely based on caste system and so long this reservation policy continues none can deny presence of the Manu code in Indian Hindu society and also polity !

If I am wrong kindly tell me what is the criterion of our beloved reservation policy caste system or not !

Either one has to admit it or deny it with logical arguments which you do not seem to do either way. That is why I had surrendered my right to involve in the discussion with you !

Even now I want to read what you say on the prevalence of caste system in our beloved Hindu Society and the place of Jats in social hierarchy in it ! Are they considered as equal to Brahmins in the administration of religious affairs and management of temples in India !

[maddhan1979]

And what about schools and colleges run by DAV Mgt., Santan Dharm Sabha, Jains, Sikhs et all in India and abroad !


Hardly any standing for such schools abroad, i have traveled and seen, what kind of worth a person from India has.

The worth of individual Indians living and working abroad is measured based on the weight of their government, politicians representing India and how much value is given to Indians in their own country. The fact of the matter is Indians are not valued in their own country, so how can they be valued abroad.

You can see the cases in previous years where a lot of seaships with Indian sailors travelling across oceans were hijacked. Indian government at that point of time did nothing to facilitate their release.

Entire central Asia follows Islam, south east Asia follows Islam, entire middle east follows Islam.
Russia, Entire Amrikan continent, Australia, Europe follows Christianity.

[maddhan1979]

In the past politicians and economically strong class of Indian society just made sure that Indians are fodder for local economy and world economy.

Let us see, what the new government does.

[maddhan1979]

There is also a perception out of India, that India is still run by "Brahmanical and economical class" and not by science or economic related factors.

Whereas both of these classes form only a fraction of entire country.

[maddhan1979]

There is also a perception out of India, that India is still run by "Brahmanical and economical class" and not by science or economic related factors.

Whereas both of these classes form only a fraction of entire country.

It is also a fact that lot of religious organizations and allied people are sitting on loads of money, gold, etc. in India. This was evident in last few years when lot of gold and other valuable stuff was discovered from these temples, etc.

The main question is how much of such money is ever used to open low cost schools, free medical hospitals, etc. for the common people?

I would say not even 1% of this money is ever used for such purposes in India.

[maddhan1979]

When Indian Parliament burns several lakhs of rupees per minute by causing disruptions and not working properly while farmers commit suicide, then what can be expected from other sections of society?

Okey, Mr. Modi, might pick up a broom and try to clean a street while the people walking along him might not even look at his attitude? Does this really matter?

I think, it matters and calls for a change in the entire working culture.

[upendersingh]

जिस तरह से मुस्लिमों के लिए पैगंबर मोहम्मद साहब, ईसाईयों के लिए जीसस क्राइस्ट, बौद्धों के लिए गौतम बुद्ध एक मार्गदर्शक की तरह हैं और ये सभी अपने-अपने मार्गदर्शक की छत्रछाया के नीचे हैं, जिस तरह से सभी सिख गुरु नानक की छत्रछाया के नीचे हैं और जाट धर्म को मानने वाले नरेंद्र खर्ब साहब के नीचे हैं, क्या कोई बताएगा (प्रमाण के साथ) कि हिंदू किसकी छत्रछाया के नीचे हैं? हिंदू धर्म का कोई संस्थापक ही नहीं है।
इसका मतलब इस दुनिया में बस हिंदू ही मानसिक रूप से स्वतंत्र हैं, बाकी सब गुलाम हैं। हो सकता है कि खर्ब साहब यह सफाई दें कि नहीं ऐसा नहीं है, मैं किसी से ऊपर नहीं हूं, लेकिन जब खर्ब साहब इस दुनिया में नहीं होंगे तो फिर क्या होगा? यदि जाट धर्म का पालन करने वालों को कोई ऐसा कहेगा कि तुम तो नरेंद्र खर्ब के गुलाम हो तो क्या होगा? इस बात का जवाब स्पष्ट होना चाहिए। यदि जाट हिंदू नहीं हैं (जैसा कि इस चर्चा का शीर्षक है) तो फिर अवश्य ही किसी न किसी के मानसिक गुलाम हैं।

[DrRajpalSingh]

There is neither anything like separate 'Jat Dharma' and so nor there is any question of any founder of this non-existent thing so much feared by its impact on future generations.

The purpose of the thread started seems to be pointing out the difference between the Dharma [way of social life] practically practiced by the Jats and the Hindu religion as indoctrinated by the Brahmnical or Puranic preachers.

This difference none can deny.

[DrRajpalSingh]

What we know as Hinduism enshrines in teachings/beliefs of mankind since the beginning of the institution of beliefs/faiths in the minds of men. Its evolution has continued through the ages with adoption of newer beliefs and discarding of old ones as the time passed. Various beliefs of our Hindu religion have influenced other faiths and conversely others have impacted it.

The regional and societal formation in India is also not homogeneous and same applies to the Jat community professing Hinduism. They have evolved their own adherence to Hindu beliefs and teachings according to their suitability and practical utility and thus shunned the orthodox teachings of Hinduism which did not suit their way of life.

For example, when orthodox Hindus belonging to DWIJA group as specified by Manu forbade re-marriage of widows, the Hindu Jats did not fall in line inspite of strictest castigation by the so called protectors of Hinduism.

Second, Whenever they found a suitable opportunity to show their opposition to orthodox Hinduism, they did not loose it as is borne out by the fact that the Jats joined newer faiths which were nearer their own way of life like Buddhism, Sikhism and later on Arya Samaj.

Therefore, the discussion on the issue may be summed up : That we are Hindu Jats but we are not orthodox followers of Puranic Brahminism ! In other words we follow those beliefs and teachings of vast and liberal Hindu religious way of life. Hindu Jats have nothing against liberal Hindu way of life so long as the others do not poke their nose in their day to day life in the name of religion !

[upendersingh]

There is neither anything like separate 'Jat Dharma' and so nor there is any question of any founder of this non-existent thing so much feared by its impact on future generations.

The purpose of the thread started seems to be pointing out the difference between the Dharma [way of social life] practically practiced by the Jats and the Hindu religion as indoctrinated by the Brahmnical or Puranic preachers.

This difference none can deny.

Dear friend, but here are many who claim their religion is Jat. In such a case either you are wrong or they are wrong. Kindly clear it, because I can paste such claims here.

[DrRajpalSingh]

Dear friend, but here are many who claim their religion is Jat. In such a case either you are wrong or they are wrong. Kindly clear it, because I can paste such claims here.

Friend,
Instead of castigating others who hold different point of view, we must look into the matter with open mind and abjure orthodox meaning of Hinduism.

A big bench of the Supreme Court of India has cleared the issue long ago back about the meaning of 'who is Hindu'. Turn to earlier posts in the thrread to acquaint yourself about the same, if you have not read that.

If Hindu Dharma is a way of life, then what is harm if some Jats use their way of life to describe it in that context as 'Jat Dharma'. Let them enjoy their freedom of thought and expression as enshrined in fundamental rights in our constitution.

Therefore, the use of word 'Dharma' as practiced by the votaries of the thinking as noted by you among us are not alien to practical way of Hinduism !

Moreover, Dharma has a wider connotation than understood by us only in its narrow meaning; and as such, in addition to many other meanings, it also conveys the sense of moral way of life. If these Jat people want to describe their way of life and morals followed by them as 'Jat Dharma' we must not jump to conclusion that they are opposing Hindu Dharma. Rather, they are as good Hindus as others and we must be tolerant towards them as true Hindus.

Pushing someone too tight in a corner is neither good for Hinduism nor for its proclaimed defenders ! Let them enjoy their own Hinduism as suitable to them in the form of Jat Dharma and let other Jats who do not ascribe to their way of life enjoy those teachings of Hinduism which are to their liking !

Kindly remember maxim : Sarvadharma sambhav !

If you kindly accept the perception of Jat Dharma vs Hinduism explained and elucidated in the above three posts, then none is wrong; only misunderstanding of the real standing of the two seeming different lines of thought which are actually not different in wider perspective.

Thanks

[ayushkadyan]

काफ़ी दिनो से जाटो के धर्म को लेकर रस्साकशी चल रही है| पर अबूझ पहेली है ये धर्म तो| इतने बड़े महारथियो की समझ से भी बाहर है|

चलो जी मैं भी अपने ज्ञान की आहुति डाल ही देता हूँ| हो सकता है किसी का भला हो जाए| मैं यहाँ धर्म की रटी-रटायी परिभाषाओ को नही दोहराऊंगा| बात बिल्कुल साफ है| हम सभी जाटो ने अपनी सुविधनुसार अलग-अलग धर्मो को अपनाया| अब बहस इस बात की है कौन सबसे सही धर्म का पालन कर रहा है| यहाँ मेरा मत है क़ि जो धर्म आपको जीने की स्वतंत्रता दे वही उत्तम| वैसे हिंदू धर्म बुरा नही है| अपनी जिंदगी जीने की पूरी छूट मिलती है|

ना तो कोई ये पूछता कि आपने गीता या रामायण पढ़ी है कि नही| इसलिए अगर खेतिहर किसान अनपढ़ भी है तो कोई मलाल नही|

ना कोई ये पूछने वाला कि आप मंदिर जाते है या नही| इसका मतलब ये हुआ कि एक जाट किसान आराम से पूरे दिन खेतो में काम कर सकता है|

अगर दिल में कही नास्तिक होने की चुभन भी हो तो भी कोई दिक्कत नही| अपने घर में ही कुछ मूर्तिया लगाकर आप आस्तिक होने का स्वसत्यापित प्रमाणपत्र प्राप्त कर सकते है| भला कही होगा ऐसा धर्म| मैं तो मज़े ले रहा हूँ हिंदू होने के|

ओह याद आया नया साल भी तो आ गया| चलता हूँ बाज़ार में कुछ नये केलेंडर लेने| सोच रहा हूँ अबकी बार किसी भगवान जी का केलेंडर ले लेता हूँ| वैसे भी मेरे रूम में अब तो भगवान जी की एंट्री हो ही जानी चाहिए| क्या पता कब सुन ले मेरी मन की अरदास| भगवान जी माफ़ करना अगर कुछ ग़लत बोला हो तो|

मस्त मलंग जाट

[Hchaudhary007]

[Mr. Waman Meshram said that the people who are in minority(brahmins) in the society are trying to be in majority in the name of “Hindus”. In democracy only majority can rule. Hence the minority(minority) are utilising the Hindus coin to fool the backward class and are becoming majority. The topic had two specific words, mulnivasi and bahujan. Bahujan means those who are majority is society i.e. SC/ST,OBC and converted minority constitutes 85% of the population, hence they are in majority. Also these SC/ST,OBC and converted minorities are the indigenous inhabitants of this country, hence Mulnivasi Bahujan. (Here those people who came to this land and worked on this land for their survival without exploiting others are called so as well)

Now the question arises-Are Mulnivasi Bahujan Hindus? To know this, we will have to understand the vertical varna system first. The varna system speaks of brahmin at top, then kshatriya, then vaishya and atlast backward (shudra) class. Shudra varna is kept rightless, the only right they were having was to serve the upper three varnas. The 3743 castes, included in mandal commission are shudra caste. SC/ST’s are already outside the varna system, hence there is no question of them to be hindu. The converted minorities had converted their religion from SC /ST’s, hence the minorities are also not hindu. Also the tribal community was living in forests. The rules and regulations of Hindus were not imposed on tribes. They were having their own rules. Another simple example that SC’s are not hindus, is that, those who called themselves as hindu don’t touch these castes (as they are untouchables). Hence untouchables can’t be hindu. Instead of saying anything by untouchables, the upper caste arya brahmins themselves discarded untouchables and said that they are not hindu.

Now, the only question remains is that are mulnivasi bahujan hindus? The social revolution is not taking place in India, he reason is only because of this question. If this is proved that the shudras are not hindu, then there will be no time lag in social revolution. Adv.J.N.Verma, who is in Allahabad high court had proved from the brahminical vedic literature itself that OBC’s are shudras. In his book “Who is OBC -Kshatriya,Vaishya or Shudra?, he had elaborated how the arya brahmins had behaved with shudra’s (OBC). For those whom the world says slave, in India they are called as Shudra.

Shudras were kept rightless. For them the so called holy Gita says that “Karmanya vadhi Kariste Ma Phaleshu Kadachan”, which means, you should do all type of hard work but don’t ask for any wage (salary). In Bihar the laborers are not getting any daily wage as the land owners are implementing the saying of Gita in practical.

The religion of slave and who made them slave can’t be equal. But in practical it is observed. Why is it so, we must know. If shudras are slave then they can’t be Hindu.

The upanayan ceremony is not performed for shudras. Upanayan ceremony is that ceremony in which the sacred thread is worn by the person through brahmins. Brahmins had not given the right of upanayan ceremony to Shudras. For example the biggest shudra of UP is Charan Singh. Had Charan Singh gone for Upanayan ceremony? Or Mulayam Singh also didn’t perform this ceremony. Nor any yadav or Kurmi or any backward wores sacred thread. If shudras are kept away from Upnayan ceremony, then it proves beyond doubt that Shudras are away from brahmin religion. Today brahmin religion is called as hindu religion as previously it was vedic religion. When anybody utters the hindu word, it not only reflects the brahminical oppose, but also of OBC’s. Hence if Brahmin religion word is propagated instead of hindu word then backward class will not fool themselves and instead will polarise with their co-brothers, SC’s and ST’s. Hence brahmins are projecting the hindu word more rather than Brahmin word. Above cited all examples proves that Shudras are not from brahmin religion hence are not hindu.

When Mandal commission was going to be implemented, which was reserving seats for 52% OBC’s all the Brahmins stood against OBC’s. The basic question arises, if OBC’s are considered as hindu by arya brahmins, and also if brahmin and Shudra both are hindus, then why did arya brahmins stood against the reservation right of 52% OBC’s. There were 31 % OBC advocates who were handling the mandal commission case and giving anti reservation opinions and there was not a single OBC advocate to speak infavour of mandal commission, hence Laloo Prasad yadav was left with no option rather than taking Jethmalani as an lawyer. So if OBC’s are hindus and brahmins are also hindu, then brahmins instead of opposing the reservation should have come forward to after reservations to OBC’s. But the case was reverse which proves that OBC’s (Shudras) are not hindus.

Instead they came out with opinion that why reservation is at all necessary for OBC’s. They were saying that OBC’s don’t have merit. It indirectly means that OBC’s are not eligible for reservation. They are unfit or worthless. This type of brahminical behavior itself proves that OBC’s are not hindu.

Further Mr.Waman Meshram said that there was marriage of Mr.Mulayam Singh Yadav’s son with a brahmin girl. But there was not any proposal from the brahmin family to Mr.Yadav. Instead it was a love marriage. This example proves that if brahmin is a hindu and OBC’s are hindu then why not any brahmin approaches OBC family for his daughter’s /son’s marriage proposal. This proves that OBC’s are not hindu.

If there is any sort of atrocity against christans, then all christans in the world raise a voice against it. Same is the condition of muslims. But if there is any atrocity against hindu (OBC), then even Indian hindu’s (Brahmins) don’t raise any voice against it. Why is it so? Here one hindu is creating atrocity on another hindu. These all examples proves that OBC’s are not hindu.

Brahmins want OBC’s, in the name of hindu, to burn the muslim houses. If there is a problem of making Atal Bihari as prime minister or if any babri mosque is to be demolished then arya brahmins call the indigenous people as hindu. Brahmins make the indigenous people monkeys in the name of hindu. (Brahmins called Advani as Ram and Kalyan Singh as Hanuman, during the babri mosque demolition period.) whenever, there is a question of giving reservation right to OBC’s then they are unfit for it, but fit for demolishing babri-mosque and burning muslim houses.

In none of the vedic brahminical literature i.e. Vedas, Shrutis, Purans, Upnishadas, or any other literature the word hindu appears “Hindu” word was given by muslim rulers to arya brahmins. Brahmins abuse Babar, Humayu while demolishing babri mosque, but now they had accepted it and are proud of the name given by them. If the babri mosque is an stain then the name “Hindu” given by muslim is also a stigma to arya brahmins then why they are proudly uttering the word hindu. The hindu word also doesn’t appear in Gita. It says “ Yada Yada hi dharmasya, gla nir bhavati bharat”. Here Bharat word appear and not hindu. So why they are praying the word hindu.

Muslims came to India in the 12th century. In this period brahmins got defeated and for defeated people, they gave the name of hindu. But brahmins refused the name. This can be proved by an example that brahmins were excluded from the Jijiya tax, which muslims imposed on Indians. Brahmins discarded the word hindu as muslims gave the hindu word for the defeated people, means slave. The same person who opposed and discarded the hindu name given by muslims are now propagating the same word, why this change had happened?.

In 1875, Dayanand Saraswati formed an organisation in the name of Arya Samaj. But suddenly in 1925 R.S.S was formed. It means that upto 1925 the arya brahmins were calling themselves as arya samagist but from 1925 suddenly they start calling themselves as hindus? Why this sudden change happen ? In the book “Arctic home in Vedas .” Tilak wrote that arya are supreme and brahmins themselves are arya. The reason of this sudden change was that in 1917 the adult franchise movement was started. The movement was started in England but there was repercussions In India. As at that time, India was a british India, so brahmins got alerted that at any time this movement can come to India, then what will happen to the aryan supremacy. Because arya brahmins are in minority and SC/ST,OBC in majority. So majority will get voting right and rule will be of majority. For this reason arya brahmins stop calling them as aryans and instead started saying hindu. Once who were hating the word hindu, started propagating it from 1925. The minority aryans brought the hindu word to become a majority in co- operation with OBC’s. The caste based census was stopped in 1931. This resulted in, those who were slaved and who made them slave both became hindu. These all examples proves that Mulnivasi Bahujan are not hindu.

[Hchaudhary007]

Hindu is a word imposed on jats and other various communities. It's like a day few people come to you and tell you that you are a Hindu. You can go through the Persian origin of this word.
Let's take recent activities of RSS( a brahmin organization) into consideration. It is working in tribal areas and telling that tribal customs are part of sanatan dharma and they all are Hindus. This is called appropriation. That's how they will fool the people and bring them under Hinduism. In past they used various superstitions and spread fear among people...like if puja isn't conducted by a brahmins, a calamity will come or if they don't conduct particular ritual, mishap will take place. That's how Brahmins earned their livelihood and with time appropriated people under their brahmanic fold. Brahmins fooled the simple people. For example they create myths like Hanuman is Balaji and that's how they brought those communities who worshipped their lok devta, under Brahmanism or Hinduism. But still they kept the order of Hanuman as servant. Similar attempt made with Buddha and other local deities. That's how Brahmins appropriated them and their temples.

Jata are not Hindus. Jats belong to a community that always stood for social justice and had fought against Brahmanism. By seeing majority of comments I realized majority of jats are calling themselves Hindus or belonging to vedic etc.. that's all false. We have nothing to do with vedas. Vedas are derogatory and have being compiled by brahmins to earn their livelihood by false means. There was no vedic time in India. In India not a single village is named in Sanskrit. Sanskrit was never a part of our culture.

Sanskrit is being imposed in other languages of India. It was never a language of ours. Prakrit, pali and other such languages are our language, even Hindi came from Prakrit pali and Urdu. Sanskrit has nothing to do with Hindi. But brahmins have inserted Sanskrit language in Hindi and other regional languages such as Oriya just to show their supremacy. The rock edicts of Asoka are found in Prakrit. Sanskrit hold no archeological evidences. Brahmins are creating myths.

While in 1990s when mandal commission recommendation on obc reservation was implemented, these brahmins opposed. The reservation was to be provided to 52% of the total population of India including jats, but since brahmins hold judiciary, they reduced it to 27% along with applying creamy layer filter. Brahmins feared obc revolution at that time and thus brought ram Mandir into limelight. The obc which should be fighting for their rights of representation, was diverted to rath Yatra chanting ram ram. Thus instead of giving rights to bahujan, ram was given and a revolution was avoided. Again the bahujan were made Hindu against Muslims and babri demolition took place. Who loose there. It was the bahujan and Muslims who lost their rights. Brahmins gained through this demolition. Television was used to propagate mahabharat and Ramayana serials. Thus instead of rights the bahujan was given Ramayana and mahabharat.

Who represents in media and TV production houses...again the brahmins and svavarna caste. They fool the bahujan though media. TV serials are prepared to spread brahmanism/ Hinduism and people are falling prey to it.

During elections brahmins will make you Hindu against Muslims and when elections are over and brahmins get power on the votes of us, thry will start working against us. They will divide the people on caste will oppose reservation given to us. Like recently they played the card if jat versus non jat in haryana and showed in media that jats are fools and barbaric. They hold no merit. But seriously we deserve it. We aren't united. We take pride in calling themselves as vedic/ Hindu etc and that's what brahmins want. Purity means those who hold Hugh morals. Pure are those who stand for social justice and oppose every exploitation. Are we jats so?

In Rajasthan jats account for around 20% population of the state, rajputs around 5% and brahmins around 1 or 2%, but still jats lags very much in political, social and economic sector. Brahmins hold more than 60% of representation in every sphere and then the rajputs and baniyas. Jats are divided, few supports bjp, rss, or congress or cpm. They aren't united. Bjp rss congress cpm cpi are brahmins party, they will work for Brahmanism. We need out own political power. Or we should aim for sc, st, obc and minorities unity...let's fight against Brahmanism and ensure social justice.

In India brahmins account fit just 3% population but still hold 60-70 resources or representation in parliament, bureucracy, media, private sector. Where are other communities. The majority of 85% population just hold 20% representation or hold on country's resources.

The brahmanized parliament and bureucracy will impart such kind of education which spread brahmanism. The whole education system is designed so. Just see which caste do the vice Chancellor of universities belong...aren't 90% of them brahmins? What's the representation of other castes therein education sector...sc st obcs minorities are represented very negligible. And always attempts are made that sc STs obcs minorities don't enter the education and other fields.

Judiciary is nothing but brahmanized. Just see the castes of all there being in judiciary. Other caste are rarely allowed there. The whole system works for Brahmanism.

Jats need to realize the situation of India and should get united to fight against Brahmanism. Let's unite the sc STs obcs and minorities and fight against Brahmanism and ensure social justice. Let's oppose rss dream of svavarna Hindu rashtra...a nation working on manu law, a nation for just svavarna caste and slavery for others. They can't say so as they are minority and don't hold numbers. Thus they spread such myths so that we work for our own demise.
Dont fall prey to brahmin plot. Let's work together for social revolution and ensure social justice.

[vijay]

Quite a long article to correct our poor History knowledge. After considering your and Mr. Waman's Historical facts as extremely accurate and well researched, what would you like to suggest ?

[jakharanil]

JAT is not Hindu.... Hindu word given by Turk !!!

[jakharanil]

जिसे बेवकूफ हिन्दू धर्म कहते हैं वो ब्राह्मण धर्म है। जल्दी इसका नाम वैदिक धर्म करेंगे।

[neel6318]

जिसे हिन्दू धर्म कहते हैं वो ब्राह्मण धर्म है। जल्दी इसका नाम वैदिक धर्म करेंगे।

This I agree!

[nijjhar]

Here are the basic definitions:-

First Panth, Smaaj or Way of life is Hindu: - The root of the word Hindu is “HOND” or your tribal identity in Brahma established in JAATI AUR BAASI. This is well demonstrated by the people of the South India who have four names; the name of the boy, his father’s name, his village name and finally his surname. By this, his identity “HOND” is established and he will have “SHARM” of his family and so DHARM. That is why no Saint was born or needed in South India and Saint Thomas was enough. They enjoy “Eros” love. First Lanv applies to Hindus in which your TANN becomes NIRMAL.

Second Panth or Way of Life is Sikh in which the person becomes a student of spiritual knowledge to be a “HAR JANN” or son of Parbrahm. They thrive upon “Agape” Divine unconditional love as displayed by Bhai Ghaniyia Ji. Second Lanv applies to Sikhs how to purify one’s MUNN.

Third Panth Khalsa and the Fourth Panth of Nirmallae Santan or Apostles was organised by Sache Patshah Gobind Rai Ji, the very Form of Akaal Purakh and His Sons represented Him by performing the Philanthropic Works as solitary, NIAARE Khalsa Soldiers of “PAR SHIV” (Daeh Shiva Var Mohae… sons of Shiv let us fight against the sons of Satan) to sort out the stubborn sons of Satan Al-Djmar Al-Aksa, the religious fanatics – John 8v44 and Word of Mouth by the Apostles. Both of them were initiated by beheading the Five on stage and then sewing the head of one with the Torso of other. And they were revived through Nectar of His Word that created “Philia” Love among the solitary. That is why sugar Pataashe were added by Mahan Devan, Mother Holy Spirit, in the Nectar of His Word prepared by the Father Sache Patshah Gobind Rai Ji, who Himself became “Gobind Singh Ji” through Amrit leaving no Gap between Father and His Sons Khalsas of the Third Panth and Nirmallae Santan of the Fourth Panth that enjoy “Storge” Love of the Family of God. Like the Apostles of the First Satguru = Christ Jesus, they didn’t carry money, two shoes, etc. on their Journeys Preaching Gospel from their own hearts. My family members used to honour them and my late father also enjoyed their company. Third and the Fourth Lanvs apply to these two spiritual states BUDHI and CHITT BIRTTIS.

Thus, unless you are a “Hindu”, sons of Man, Brahma, Yahweh, Khuda, etc., the Lords of Nature as demonstrated by Lord Krishna, the incarnation of Shiv, you cannot be a Sikh, the sons of the Highest Elohim, Allah, ParBrahm, etc.

When your TANN (Flesh) and MUNN (Mind, Nafs) are NIRMAL (Purified), then you long for serving Almighty AKAAL PURAKH by either joining the Third Khalsa Panth of PAR-UPKARI Soldiers or become an Apostle, NIRMALLA SANT to Preach Gospel to glorify our Father God.

In short, you give money or tithe to Brahmin/Rabbi Guru/Priest, the Moral Teacher for teaching you the moral laws, Munn, mind or Nafs to your own “Innerman called Satguru = Christ” to learn Gospel through logical reasoning led by “holy ghost or Budhi” and finally led by your “innerman Waheguru, the Satguru that deserves applauses”, you present, BHAINT, your “TANN and MUNN” to Sache Patshah for rendering services to humanity as Khalsa or Nirmala Sant, Apostle, etc. That is, both the Khalsas and the Nirmallae Sants are NOT FAMILY PEOPLE. Thus, Only the sealed to serve God, the Gurmukh could be the Servants of Akal Purakh.

BaeMukh or the once-born Khalsas example is the 40 MUKTTAE and of the MUNNMUKH is the Sodhi Khatri Lala Banda Bahadur who organised the killing of Sachae Patshah Gobind Singh Ji warning Khalsas not to trust anyone else but themselves as solitary, NIAARA. This Lala Banda Bahadur had the habit of learning the skills and then trying to kill his Master to occupy his Seat/Gaddi. After the death of Sachae Patshah, this Lala Banda Bahadur proclaimed himself to be the next Sachae Patshah. LOBHHI KAA VASAH NAA KI JAYAE; JAYE KO PAAR VASAAYE or the MUNNMUKHS are KUTTAE DEE POOCH.

This is well stressed by Satguru Ram Dass Ji in the Four Lavan.

For further details, read my Book in Punjabi “KAKHH OHLAE LAKHH” www.gnosticgospel.co.uk/pdbook.pdf (http://www.gnosticgospel.co.uk/pdbook.pdf) or in English “FIRST GNOSTIC PRINCIPLES OF ONE GOD ONE FAITH” www.gnosticgospel.co.uk/book.htm (http://www.gnosticgospel.co.uk/book.htm) and both need revisions for minor updates.

Here is a Youtube Video on this topic:-

https://youtu.be/WLW3zdocYM8

[DevArbikshe]

Narender Ji,
Buddhism is a section of Hinduism (Also Jainism) as I have read in History books so all Buddhists were Hindus first and this is more reliable history than our Jat historians. Hindus still consider Gautam Buddha an "Avtaar" of "Vishnu". As far as the history and our historians go, I always had doubts and now my doubts are confirmed with this declaration. Tomorrow these Khaps will claim that Jats were existed even before Eva and Adam, are you going to believe them? And nerxt thing we will hear is, Jats used to ride Dianaseurs and Jat kids used to play with Dianaseurs.
We are trying to look different from others as the Muslims do with their beard, cap, burqa and what not. This is a very dangerous declaration from our community and it will harm us a lot in future if we cling to it.
We give proofs from Vedas, Upnishadas, Mahabhart and Ramayan and these all are related to Hinduism or the Sanatan dharma. My common sense tells me that Hinduism is a modern or new term for Sanatan dharma.
One more thing, I am not going to change my beliefs because of this declaration. No one told me in my family/village that I am a Hindu, I am just born with it. No one asked me to go to temple or recite mantras but I feel closer to them and its my inner self that tells me that I am a Hindu.

Note: This is my personal opinion and has nothing to do with Jatland policy and its administration.


No sir, that is a tactic by Hinduism to appropriate other religions, Buddhism, Jainism , Sikhism is not Hinduism. In fact it is even more different than Islam because they consciously broke away from it. I don't know when jatts will wake up and realsie how hinduism ke thekedars have worked against them.
As far as vedas and their upnashidas are concerned , read harry potter, it's merely that nothing more. It's a tool to control, for power, that's it.
Jatts are the only community that has been successfully made a target of hate by both so called upper and lower caste groups in India and also by other religions. Why not rise above casteism? Jatts are a different ethnicity that got mixed overtime but anyways you believe what you believe, just remember most of India is against Jatts, i read so many comments of abuse against jatts everyday, it's overwhelming. Compare that to sikhs, they love sikhs, even if they do wrong, they don't believe. jatts do anythign good they don't acknowledge. PEOPLE ON SOCIAL MEDIA ATTRIBUTE CRIMES DONE BY OTHER COMMUNTIIES TO JATTS, HOW WORSE DO YOU THINK IT CAN GET
?
aapko aapka hindusim mubarak, muje bi koi bura nahi lagta lekin jab dekhta hu how thekedars (bahmans, baniyas) wrok against jatts to khoon khaul uthta hai par fir sochta hu hamari kaum me itni ignornace hai hindi muslim ke naam pe ye aapko unse ladvate hain aur apni rotiyan sekte hai to kare kya, hamari kaum ki galti hai ki bewakoof banne ke liye tayyar baithi hai. bahman aapko apne barabar kabhi nahi samjhega, aur uska kaam hi hai control ki koshish karna, itne proof mil chuke hai unke hamare khilaaf including other so called upper castes lekin us kaum ko koi nahi bacha sakta jo aank band karke baithi ho

[cooljat]

Eye opening facts, thanks for sharing.
No sir, that is a tactic by Hinduism to appropriate other religions, Buddhism, Jainism , Sikhism is not Hinduism. In fact it is even more different than Islam because they consciously broke away from it. I don't know when jatts will wake up and realsie how hinduism ke thekedars have worked against them.
As far as vedas and their upnashidas are concerned , read harry potter, it's merely that nothing more. It's a tool to control, for power, that's it.
Jatts are the only community that has been successfully made a target of hate by both so called upper and lower caste groups in India and also by other religions. Why not rise above casteism? Jatts are a different ethnicity that got mixed overtime but anyways you believe what you believe, just remember most of India is against Jatts, i read so many comments of abuse against jatts everyday, it's overwhelming. Compare that to sikhs, they love sikhs, even if they do wrong, they don't believe. jatts do anythign good they don't acknowledge. PEOPLE ON SOCIAL MEDIA ATTRIBUTE CRIMES DONE BY OTHER COMMUNTIIES TO JATTS, HOW WORSE DO YOU THINK IT CAN GET
?
aapko aapka hindusim mubarak, muje bi koi bura nahi lagta lekin jab dekhta hu how thekedars (bahmans, baniyas) wrok against jatts to khoon khaul uthta hai par fir sochta hu hamari kaum me itni ignornace hai hindi muslim ke naam pe ye aapko unse ladvate hain aur apni rotiyan sekte hai to kare kya, hamari kaum ki galti hai ki bewakoof banne ke liye tayyar baithi hai. bahman aapko apne barabar kabhi nahi samjhega, aur uska kaam hi hai control ki koshish karna, itne proof mil chuke hai unke hamare khilaaf including other so called upper castes lekin us kaum ko koi nahi bacha sakta jo aank band karke baithi ho

[Samarkadian]

Kind of **** these BJP/RSS guys pull is not only hilarious but shameful that a Chief Minister of the state would say that internet was discovered in Mahabharta..

However see the proof.

20063

[Samarkadian]

When CM of tripura said all these things he could have said that there was an option of IVF for Kunti and an eye surgon of Dhrtirastra. We are living in time where one can say ..Once there was a BJP/RSS regime.

[neel6318]

Kind of **** these BJP/RSS guys pull is not only hilarious but shameful that a Chief Minister of the state would say that internet was discovered in Mahabharta..

However see the proof.


too hilarious! but could not get what you have to say about image....:confused:

[neel6318]

We are living in time where one can say ..Once there was a BJP/RSS regime.hahahahha..........true!

[neel6318]

Kind of **** these BJP/RSS guys pull is not only hilarious but shameful that a Chief Minister of the state would say that internet was discovered in Mahabharta..

However see the proof.

20063

such posts could be welcomed in thread title "Believe It or Not" ............hahahahahahaha........roll on the floor!!

[AbhikRana]

Jats are not abused and called names because they are Hindus. As far as my knowledge goes there is nothing in the Hindu scriptures against Jats unlike reams of 'to do' things pertaining to the socially lowly placed castes. As has been rightly pointed out in the previous posts on this thread, Jats have through ages been the villains be it in the brahmanical ages or under the Mughals. One thing which always intrigued me was the alacrity of mentioning the word Jat in the caste column in an FIR against a Jat accused whereas the caste was not mentioned for accused persons from other communities. Was it that even the British treated Jats as a dangerous hoodlum community as the present day society considers/treats us? This is despite the fact that Jats served valiantly and gallantly in the British Indian Army across the world.

I believe the problem is not with the way that Hinduism, Christianity or Islam has treated us. The problem is that Jats in their entire outlook come across as straightforward, rustic and painfully blunt people in their interaction with other communities. The best example is that of erstwhile Punjabi immigrants (From Pakistan and later from 80's Punjab) whom we welcomed with open arms and helped with all means possible and at present the immigrants from Bihar. And yet these very communities after having settled down amongst us pointed fingers at us calling us illiterate goondas. Same goes for the Muslim community from Muzaffarnagar whom the Jats helped during the partition days and yet people from the very same community misbehaved with our girls on regular basis which ultimately led to the riots.

The story was not any different during the Mughal rule when Maharaja Suraj Mal and his forefathers were branded as brigands and highway robbers by royal decrees passed by the Mughal court in Delhi.

As a community, all I can say about us is that we allow the situation to reach alarming proportion before we react to it, be it grabbing of our lands by the Builder lobby in connivance with the Commission agent govts. or the settling of outsiders on our lands or giving jobs to outsiders. Why was there no protest by the Delhi Jats when the Central govt. opened up the Delhi Police recruitment to all India level? Why was there no protest when because of the manipulative delimitation exercise the Jat dominated Outer Delhi constituency was broken up and merged with the non Jat majority constituencies thereby reducing the clout of the Jats in the hustings?

We have all along lacked unity and this has helped others to get the upper hand over us. Being so close to and inside Delhi, we should have had a lions share in all govt. jobs, yet our representation is almost nil especially in the top decision making positions. We as a community are leaderless as of today and all that exists in the name of Jat leadership are opportunist persons who would stand with those who can best be considered as adversaries of Jats, case in point is Muzaffarnagar.

To be continued..

[AryanPoonia]

Same goes for the Muslim community from Muzaffarnagar whom the Jats helped during the partition days and yet people from the very same community misbehaved with our girls on regular basis which ultimately led to the riots...

I wonder why it doesn't create the same type of anger like kathua or Asharam case. The rapists are roaming free even after 28 years and some are accused in a recent rape case.

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/rajasthan-almost-three-decades-after-a-rape-blackmail-case-rocked-ajmer-surrender-of-an-accused-opens-old-wounds-5076914/

https://m.timesofindia.com/city/ajmer/Two-khadims-of-Ajmer-Sharif-Dargah-face-gangrape-charge/articleshow/53882064.cms


Aa far as our religion is concerned, we are geographically and culturally Hindus and this reality can't be changed. The influence of Indian civilization is so great that even Muslims fail to associate themselves with Arab culture and those who do face serious identity issues, case of khalistanis is no different.

[neel6318]

This religion is going to create a war soon, if the same continues in following months or years

Kathua incident trapped an innocent child to become the victim for many Hindu believers :sorrow: and the same has been repeated once more but differently, that, again an innocent child of 10 years is being raped in madarssa of Arthala at Gaziabad :mad:, reported news in today's Dainik Jagran.

Isn't it too vulturous for our Indians? Its a continuous alarm for Modi ji to ask for actions in respective states by their representatives.

[narenderkharb]

This thread was an opportunity to explore true faith and religious inclination of Jat Kaum ,but midway ...discussions were hijacked by political activists and thread lost all purpose and sense.

[ayushkadyan]

People would realise that Hinduism is not a synonym of Brahmanism sooner or later. The concept of Hinduism or Vedic Culture has a broader meaning pertaining to philosophy of life. Brahmanism, casteism and some other similar socially depraved customs mixed with it over a period of time but soul and philosophy of Vedic culture is still intact.
We have to understand that Brahmans are not sole representatives of Hinduism. We no need to be ashamed of being Hindu. At the same time we no need to flaunt that we are follower of one of the oldest religion on earth. Hinduism is not limited to few books written by Brahmans.
Hinduism stresses on the inclusiveness of nature in human life. It's the only religion which takes you to close to nature. It instil compassion in people for nature and its creatures be it trees, animals and even rivers through its customs and rituals. Nothing can be more beautiful if your religion teaches you how to love and protect the nature and Hinduism does that better than any other religion in the world.

[ayushkadyan]

जिन भाइयो को हिन्दू होने में दिक्कत है वो इंसान बन जाये| पहले गाँव के चमारो-भंगियो को अपनी खाट पर बैठाना शुरू करे| ब्राह्मणो को कोसते रहना| खुद में झांक के देखो पहले|

हिन्दू होने से इतनी एलर्जी है तो आंदोलन करो| जैसे लिंगायत कर्नाटक में अलग धर्म चाहते है वैसे ही तुम करो| जब आरक्षण के लिए इतनी मार काट हो सकती है तो फिर धर्म के लिए क्यों नहीं| यहाँ कलम घिसने से कोई फायदा नहीं|

जाटो की ब्राह्मणवाद से मुक्ति और नए धर्म की नियुक्ति का भार तुम्हारे कंधो पर है मित्रो| आवाज उठाओ|

[neel6318]

This thread was an opportunity to explore true faith and religious inclination of Jat Kaum ,but midway ...discussions were hijacked by political activists and thread lost all purpose and sense.

Talking on your context, I agree that we in past era had practised Buddhism and during Britishers regime, we were called Hindus...an identity given by learned Brahmans(high class).

'Ism' is just to define an ideology of a group. We can definitely speak on Jattism but we need to form a base for that like other yogis has done in history.

Basically, Buddha is one who is enlightened, however, it was ignored later and was followed on the ideology of a legend called Siddharth. So, we are just following ideologies and the same was being done by our Mahatma Gandhi, who worshipped Hinduism, one who talks about ahimsa, patience, forbearance, self-restraint and compassion. These are all eternal duties of a well being. The four largest denominations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_denominations) of Hinduism are the Vaishnavism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaishnavism), Shaivism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaivism), Shaktism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaktism) and Smartism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smarta_Tradition).

What others define in their published books or journals is all a compilation of information or might be a depth study like a doctorate do. Their views are just to read and agree or argue with firm set of beliefs to prove in society. But, simply we can call ourselves, Hindu and thereby can follow any ideology as said by others that we do not pray to single/one God like other communities do. Being Hindu, we are free to choose our way of life, which was not even confined as per Buddhism.


source: wikipedia

[neel6318]

जिन भाइयो को हिन्दू होने में दिक्कत है वो इंसान बन जाये| पहले गाँव के चमारो-भंगियो को अपनी खाट पर बैठाना शुरू करे| ब्राह्मणो को कोसते रहना| खुद में झांक के देखो पहले|

Valuable post!

Our grandfather, who served with Royal British Army, never allowed any low caste to take a seat on the same cot or at same level of height in the family. But, we can practise this, as a suggested idea. :nonchalance:

Bahin!

[Samarkadian]

People would realise that Hinduism is not a synonym of Brahmanism sooner or later. The concept of Hinduism or Vedic Culture has a broader meaning pertaining to philosophy of life. Brahmanism, casteism and some other similar socially depraved customs mixed with it over a period of time but soul and philosophy of Vedic culture is still intact.
We have to understand that Brahmans are not sole representatives of Hinduism. We no need to be ashamed of being Hindu. At the same time we no need to flaunt that we are follower of one of the oldest religion on earth. Hinduism is not limited to few books written by Brahmans.
Hinduism stresses on the inclusiveness of nature in human life. It's the only religion which takes you to close to nature. It instil compassion in people for nature and its creatures be it trees, animals and even rivers through its customs and rituals. Nothing can be more beautiful if your religion teaches you how to love and protect the nature and Hinduism does that better than any other religion in the world.

You seem to be confused. Do you say Vedas and Vedic culture is akin to Hinduism ? Can you find out a single word ' Hindu' from Vedas?

Secondly your rivers are revered as much as they are made a dustbin. India ranks in 140s among 188 in hygiene and sanitation. I guess on those measures being a Hindu as failed the nation. On the Same festival of Diwali, supreme court had to intervene to stop its followers to use crackers. I am not so sure about your claim of loving nature and its inclusiveness.

[Samarkadian]

हा हा ! जज साहेब, धर्म के लिए ही तो मारकाट हों रही है चारों तरफ ! अब कोसा उसी को जाएगा जिसने ये प्रथा शुरू की हों और इससे हमेशा समाज का शोषण किया हों , तो ब्राह्मण ही कोसे जायेंगे निसंदेह ! और जहाँ तक बात है हमारे पूर्वजो द्वारा चमारो भंगियो के शोषण की तो इसे ऐसे लो की इन ब्राह्मणों ने हमारे भोले भाले पूर्वजो को ऐसे बहका रखा था ! हमारे ही प्रुवाजो को क्यूँ सारे समाज को धर्म की आड़ में अपने स्वार्थ पूर्ति के इस्तेमाल किया है ! अब जब समझ आ चुका है तो क्यूँ नहीं बैठाया जाएगा ! और यहाँ क्यूँ नहीं लिखा जाएगा , तुम्हे दिक्कत हो तो इग्नोर कर दो ! जाट धर्म की शुरुआत कई साल पहले हों चुकी और समयानुसार आगे भी बड़ेगी ! लिंगायत ये मांग आज से नहीं सदियों से कर रहे हैं ! बात ये सोचने की है कि अगर हिंदू धर्म इतना विशाल हृदय और बढिया है तो ये लिंगायत क्यूँ भागना चाहते हैं ? तुम अपने कंधो पर मैला कुचैला ब्राह्मणवाद रखो हमने अपने कंधो पर जाट धर्म का बेड़ा उठा रखा है !






जिन भाइयो को हिन्दू होने में दिक्कत है वो इंसान बन जाये| पहले गाँव के चमारो-भंगियो को अपनी खाट पर बैठाना शुरू करे| ब्राह्मणो को कोसते रहना| खुद में झांक के देखो पहले|

हिन्दू होने से इतनी एलर्जी है तो आंदोलन करो| जैसे लिंगायत कर्नाटक में अलग धर्म चाहते है वैसे ही तुम करो| जब आरक्षण के लिए इतनी मार काट हो सकती है तो फिर धर्म के लिए क्यों नहीं| यहाँ कलम घिसने से कोई फायदा नहीं|

जाटो की ब्राह्मणवाद से मुक्ति और नए धर्म की नियुक्ति का भार तुम्हारे कंधो पर है मित्रो| आवाज उठाओ|

[upendersingh]

This thread was an opportunity to explore true faith and religious inclination of Jat Kaum

मैं पिछले लगभग 8-9 साल से कुछ जाटों में हिंदू धर्म के प्रति असंतोष देख रहा हूं, ऐसे जाट हिंदू धर्म को किसी कट्टर मुस्लिम से भी ज्यादा गाली देते हैं, बार-बार हिंदू धर्म को छोड़ने की धमकी देते हैं, लेकिन आज तक ऐसा एक भी जाट शेर मेरी जानकारी में नहीं है, जिसने छाती ठोककर कहा हो कि ये देखो हम हिंदू नहीं हैं और हमने कोर्ट से और सरकार से भी जाट को एक अलग धर्म घोषित करवा लिया या ये देखो हम मस्जिद में जाकर मुल्ले बन गए और उसी हिसाब से हमने अपने नाम, रीति-रिवाज इत्यादि इस्लाम के अनुसार कर लिए या ये देखो हम गुरुद्वारे में जाकर सरदार बन गए और उसी हिसाब से हमने अपने नाम, रीति-रिवाज इत्यादि सिक्खी के अनुसार कर लिए. गीदड़ भभकी देते रहते हैं बस. यदि 8-9 साल में एक भी जाट शेर ऐसा सामने नहीं आया, जिसने सचमुच हिंदू धर्म को त्यागने की हिम्मत दिखाई हो तो फिर तो और 8-9 साल ऐसे ही बीत जाएंगे और फिर ऐसे ही बीतते रहेंगे.
मेरा मानना है कि यदि किसी में हिंदू धर्म के प्रति नफरत गहरे घर कर ही गई है तो उसे जबर्दस्ती या दुलार-पुचकारकर हिंदू बने रहने को कहना और भी ज्यादा नुकसानदेह होगा हम हिंदुओं के लिए, क्योंकि ऐसे लोग नाम, रीति-रिवाजों इत्यादि से हिंदू प्रतीत होंगे, लेकिन वास्तव में हिंदुओं के मुस्लिमों से भी बड़े दुश्मन होंगे.
जिन्हें हिंदू होने में 'सॉरी' महसूस होता हो, वे शेर बनें और गीदड़ भभकी न देते हुए हिंदू धर्म से बाहर निकल जाएं. केवल कहने भर से नहीं चलेगा. जाट धर्म के हैं तो जाट को अलग धर्म की मान्यता दिलवाएं, नहीं तो मुल्ला, बौद्ध, ईसाई या सरदार जो भी बनना चाहें, विधिवत तरीके से छाती ठोककर बनें.

[Samarkadian]

मै त सोच रह्या था अक तनने ईब ताई मोक्ष मिल लिया होगा राम राज्य म ! खैर आज मन की बात म मोदी जी भी पगैम्बर मोहम्द साहब के रस्ते पर चलने को कह रहे थे !


मैं पिछले लगभग 8-9 साल से कुछ जाटों में हिंदू धर्म के प्रति असंतोष देख रहा हूं, ऐसे जाट हिंदू धर्म को किसी कट्टर मुस्लिम से भी ज्यादा गाली देते हैं, बार-बार हिंदू धर्म को छोड़ने की धमकी देते हैं, लेकिन आज तक ऐसा एक भी जाट शेर मेरी जानकारी में नहीं है, जिसने छाती ठोककर कहा हो कि ये देखो हम हिंदू नहीं हैं और हमने कोर्ट से और सरकार से भी जाट को एक अलग धर्म घोषित करवा लिया या ये देखो हम मस्जिद में जाकर मुल्ले बन गए और उसी हिसाब से हमने अपने नाम, रीति-रिवाज इत्यादि इस्लाम के अनुसार कर लिए या ये देखो हम गुरुद्वारे में जाकर सरदार बन गए और उसी हिसाब से हमने अपने नाम, रीति-रिवाज इत्यादि सिक्खी के अनुसार कर लिए. गीदड़ भभकी देते रहते हैं बस. यदि 8-9 साल में एक भी जाट शेर ऐसा सामने नहीं आया, जिसने सचमुच हिंदू धर्म को त्यागने की हिम्मत दिखाई हो तो फिर तो और 8-9 साल ऐसे ही बीत जाएंगे और फिर ऐसे ही बीतते रहेंगे.
मेरा मानना है कि यदि किसी में हिंदू धर्म के प्रति नफरत गहरे घर कर ही गई है तो उसे जबर्दस्ती या दुलार-पुचकारकर हिंदू बने रहने को कहना और भी ज्यादा नुकसानदेह होगा हम हिंदुओं के लिए, क्योंकि ऐसे लोग नाम, रीति-रिवाजों इत्यादि से हिंदू प्रतीत होंगे, लेकिन वास्तव में हिंदुओं के मुस्लिमों से भी बड़े दुश्मन होंगे.
जिन्हें हिंदू होने में 'सॉरी' महसूस होता हो, वे शेर बनें और गीदड़ भभकी न देते हुए हिंदू धर्म से बाहर निकल जाएं. केवल कहने भर से नहीं चलेगा. जाट धर्म के हैं तो जाट को अलग धर्म की मान्यता दिलवाएं, नहीं तो मुल्ला, बौद्ध, ईसाई या सरदार जो भी बनना चाहें, विधिवत तरीके से छाती ठोककर बनें.

[vijay]

We are Hindu as far as we know about our ancestral lineage. There are more than enough traditional, cultural and historical evidences and customs to substantiate it. We still write HINDU in our religion column whenever we have to. Real and practical analysis ends here about the discussion. Virtually, the discussion can be carried out till the end of the world. It seems that some enlightened souls have seen some LIGHT and started shouting "Eureka .... Eureka ..... We are not Hindus". Ironically, this virtual light of illumination is politically fueled.

[neel6318]

We are Hindu as far as we know about our ancestral lineage. There are more than enough traditional, cultural and historical evidences and customs to substantiate it. We still write HINDU in our religion column whenever we have to. Real and practical analysis ends here about the discussion. Virtually, the discussion can be carried out till the end of the world. It seems that some enlightened souls have seen some LIGHT and started shouting "Eureka .... Eureka ..... We are not Hindus". Ironically, this virtual light of illumination is politically fueled.

something sound I find in your opinion. You are psychologically correct and clear!

[prashantacmet]

This is an eternal debate. Since the inception of Jatland, it has been an inherent discussion without any astounding conclusion. Debaters piss in each other paint and say "hey, it's raining". Anyway, show must go-on, divine feed for the souls..hope we again see the same good old days of JL.......

[prashantacmet]

On the topic, Jatts and "organized religions" are poles apart morally, culturally and historically .....we were the pastoralists.."avarna or outcast for the brahmanical elites" ..gradually kept adopting the dominant religion of the land but barely glued with it blindly...For the hinduism, journey is still going on, slow but steady... outast->shudra->vaishya/Kshatriya........

[Samarkadian]

Religion overall will be out casted in coming decades. Over the globe many people are opting out of agnostic views.


On the topic, Jatts and "organized religions" are poles apart morally, culturally and historically .....we were the pastoralists.."avarna or outcast for the brahmanical elites" ..gradually kept adopting the dominant religion of the land but barely glued with it blindly...For the hinduism, journey is still going on, slow but steady... outast->shudra->vaishya/Kshatriya........

[neel6318]

This is an eternal debate. Since the inception of Jatland, it has been an inherent discussion without any astounding conclusion. Debaters piss in each other paint and say "hey, it's raining". Anyway, show must go-on, divine feed for the souls..hope we again see the same good old days of JL.......

hehe.......are you guys in kindergarten that each other can make wet in the loo and shout for making fun......I didnot said that, its Prashant.

[neel6318]

.....we were the pastoralists.."avarna or outcast for the brahmanical elites" ..........

I never heard any story about being 'a grazier'.....yes, we owned lands and are warriorlike for protecting land or winning regime.....we are farmers, we are self - oblivion when it comes for brotherhood......one might deny the fact, but, its true that we have endless fight among us because the stronger knows well how to split this power. That is why we even fail to address masses what Modi is doing these days who was just a tea-maker who hardly own any land when he started his journey.

[prashantacmet]

I never heard any story about being 'a grazier'.....yes, we owned lands and are warriorlike for protecting land or winning regime.....we are farmers, we are self - oblivion when it comes for brotherhood......one might deny the fact, but, its true that we have endless fight among us because the stronger knows well how to split this power. That is why we even fail to address masses what Modi is doing these days who was just a tea-maker who hardly own any land when he started his journey.

That was long time back. p\Probably you would have heard the fascinating stories about chariot and horse riding ppl coming down from far north eurasia steppe and crushing the indus land under their feet and laying down the foundation of vedic civilization. who were those? those were the nomadic , tent dwellers, who grabbed the land of the "almost decayed" indus valley civilization. Anyway, it is going to be exhausting run. But one thing I want to assure if there is any residue left of those steppe warrior in modern south asia..avarna jatts are the best representative of that...not the so called elite priesthood........

[neel6318]

That was long time back. p\Probably you would have heard the fascinating stories about chariot and horse riding ppl coming down from far north eurasia steppe and crushing the indus land under their feet and laying down the foundation of vedic civilization. who were those? those were the nomadic , tent dwellers, who grabbed the land of the "almost decayed" indus valley civilization. Anyway, it is going to be exhausting run. But one thing I want to assure if there is any residue left of those steppe warrior in modern south asia..avarna jatts are the best representative of that...not the so called elite priesthood........

oh!......I am not fascinated by chariot and its rider. Also, I am not in choice to write any TAT which can pull me back to long time back. I simply wrote what is true. That is the difference that I did not prefer any UP Jat. Haryanvi know better about land share. Most of Rajasthani didn't own much of land, still they prove to be victorious warriors. And Delhi jats always looked ahead.

Sorry! But you did not have a strong point to make a group believe. Represent yourself, community will surely follow you accepting all hurdles of life!

[Samarkadian]

haha. I really sympathies with Prashant now. :tongue:

[neel6318]

haha. I really sympathies with Prashant now. :tongue:

no worries! this time I will deeply care 'not to make season 2'. Why should I be the starter, always.

I am silent!

[prashantacmet]

haha. I really sympathies with Prashant now. :tongue:

Bro, you saved me..did not know what is coming for me....hahahaha

[prashantacmet]

oh!......I am not fascinated by chariot and its rider. Also, I am not in choice to write any TAT which can pull me back to long time back. I simply wrote what is true. That is the difference that I did not prefer any UP Jat. Haryanvi know better about land share. Most of Rajasthani didn't own much of land, still they prove to be victorious warriors. And Delhi jats always looked ahead.

Sorry! But you did not have a strong point to make a group believe. Represent yourself, community will surely follow you accepting all hurdles of life!
Lady, My sincere apologies for not being so clear. Infact, I was "high on the stuff" at that time;). Hope, you are also calm and composed. And I really admire your preference. At-least, we, the wretched and miserable, UP jatts escaped the hunt. :applause::tears_of_joy:

[neel6318]

Lady, My sincere apologies for not being so clear. Infact, I was "high on the stuff" at that time;). Hope, you are also calm and composed. And I really admire your preference. At-least, we, the wretched and miserable, UP jatts escaped the hunt. :applause::tears_of_joy:

anyways,.........I had my meals properly all the time, so don't need goat to roast on fire :suspicion:

[anil_rathee]

I read few comments not all, and by large we in today's world write our religion as Hindu and accepted that. But if you look deeply in brhamanic rituals and ours (which are somehow already influenced by now) and talk to our elders ( 65+) you will realize we are very different than other mainstream hindus or popular culture of hinduism.
But if we look at Hinduism as umbrella under which various different cultures are united we can say we are Hindus but definitely not the Brahaminic hinduism.
I agree with Prashant on the journey from nomadic to avarna to shudra to claiming Kshatriya identities. But the reality of today is we are getting inclined towards brahminic religion with every generation since last few decades.

[neel6318]

......But the reality of today is we are getting inclined towards brahminic religion with every generation since last few decades.

this is also an achievement/....... a change/ ...... a new identity in future/ ......

one day we will surely have our own God that way :angel:

[Samarkadian]

Okay. What Jats shall choose, considering socio-political situation, as their religion except Hinduism? It has proven by RSS/BJP already that religion is a great way to get anything but the truth and peace. One can argue about being religion-less which I favour personally however considering the situation Jats could try Sikhism or Buddhism.

[neel6318]

very simple! My religion has a different believe what others hardly talk or discuss in depth like other convictions, and that is "I am a human being". So, being human is my religious principle. :victorious:. This is called "HUMANISM". Now, do not rush into defining me an atheist. I worship being human and the supreme powers gifted to us at birth and by nurture. This makes me more responsible for my acts and accountable for the deeds to others. :)

[anil_rathee]

To the true meaning of it, I would second that, but Samar also raised important point here. For that sake of that I would go for Sikhism which is humane as well as united.


very simple! My religion has a different believe what others hardly talk or discuss in depth like other convictions, and that is "I am a human being". So, being human is my religious principle. :victorious:. This is called "HUMANISM". Now, do not rush into defining me an atheist. I worship being human and the supreme powers gifted to us at birth and by nurture. This makes me more responsible for my acts and accountable for the deeds to others. :)

[akshaymalik84]

Choose the religion with most holidays..........

But i am now Atheist...... I respect them all but don't follow any of them. How about that?

[neel6318]

Choose the religion with most holidays..........

But i am now Atheist...... I respect them all but don't follow any of them. How about that?

This also great! Any specific holiday you have to cherish being an atheist? If yes, than its perfect. Be you!

[neel6318]

To the true meaning of it, I would second that, but Samar also raised important point here. For that sake of that I would go for Sikhism which is humane as well as united.

So, you are ready to wear Sikh style turban for particular ritual...... ? ........ Look at parents, what if, they did not like this. :)

[Samarkadian]

So, you are ready to wear Sikh style turban for particular ritual...... ? ........ Look at parents, what if, they did not like this. :)

So the Sikh turban is sole representative of the Sikihism? Abstract thinking won't help understand the underlying issue.

I appreciate Anil to speak his mind. Not many can think rationally and with reason when it comes to mass hysteria of religion.

[neel6318]

So the Sikh turban is sole representative of the Sikihism? Abstract thinking won't help understand the underlying issue.

I appreciate Anil to speak his mind. Not many can think rationally and with reason when it comes to mass hysteria of religion.

I did not called it as sole identity. Adorning your hair also symbolises that. Many turban styles have their own presence especially when you talk about national integration. This also includes, conversion from one religion to another, sometimes. May be considered with very few but not all.

[Samarkadian]

I did not called it as sole identity. Adorning your hair also symbolises that. Many turban styles have their own presence especially when you talk about national integration. This also includes, conversion from one religion to another, sometimes. May be considered with very few but not all.
Sorry. Unable to get your point. Write in Hindi.

[neel6318]

Sorry. Unable to get your point. Write in Hindi.

Aha! "unable" to understand. Do not make me fool.

[jakharanil]

हिन्दू धर्म मतलब बामणिया धर्म ।

[Samarkadian]

Aha! "unable" to understand. Do not make me fool.

Well..Isse jyada kya banau ab. It seems to suit you.

[Samarkadian]

हिन्दू धर्म मतलब बामणिया धर्म ।

कड़वी सच्चाई किन्तु सत्य !

[nijjhar]

Punjabi - Antonym of Hindu is a *******. So, learn the basics.


https://youtu.be/9Ap0ipLsnuo


Here is the definition of the word Hindu. The origin of this word Hindu is from Hond or tribal identity, Jaati aur Baasi. When a stranger comes into a village, we ask him, "Ton Hunda kaun ho"? Or kiss kaa dodhh sae rae. In reply, he would tell you his Hond, identity, by telling his Jaati aur Baasi.


Such a person is a Hindu and we Jats do farming, which is a business. We are under Vaish Varn, Profession but we being stupid, can't manage our business well as these Bania and Khatris do. We drink away our profits and then go to Bania for money lending.


So, the antonym of a Hindu is a ******* who does not know his Jaati but only the Baasi.


Here, I tell you famous bastards. Bhagat Bidar was born of the Temple Daasi and he was not allowed to marry or possess tribal property but to devote his life for worship of Parbrahm, God, Allah, etc. Lord Krishna listened to his discourses. Jesus called such Bastards born of the Dasi "Mustard seeds" and Jesus Himself was the second Adam, an anointed Mustard Seed. In India, the bastards born of the daasis are called "Harijans". Hari is from Hari Om Shanti of the Hindus whilst in Sikhs, we have Harjan, the Bhagats.


Here is a puzzle for our Jatt intellects:-


A woman serves the whole village as a prostitute and a son is born to her. Now, she can't pinpoint the father of the son and village is our social mother and that is why we do not marry within the village.


Such a prostitute being the mother of the boy, she will give the boy the village name. Say the village name is Nangal. She would call the boy say Taru Nanglia.
Now, we have Jatt politicians who are born to their legitimate parents but prefer the name of the village as their surnames or they want to be famous through the village famous prostitute that pleased the whole village. Here are some famous politicians:-


Badal, Kairon, Barnala, Chautala, etc. Badal and Kairon are Dhillon Jatts, Barnala is a Dhaliwal Jatt of the Dhanna Bhagat family and what is the surname of Chautala? They are all crooks as expected of the bastards.


Now, tell me of a Khatri who changed his surname in favour of his village or town? None. In short, the clever Khatris have made fool of the Jatts to laugh at them.


I will make a Youtube video on this topic.


Hajj is for the Heavenly Peaceful living of the sons of Man, "Ba-Ilah" and not for the sons of Satan in "La-Ilah".
http://www.gnosticgospel.co.uk/faithfat.pdf
Punjabi - How a Pathan Zaildar who performed Hajj and became Super ******* Fanatic Devil?


https://youtu.be/9DqMvO1hb0U
True Story.


http://www.gnosticgospel.co.uk/Pathan201.pdf


Family of God:-
http://www.gnosticgospel.co.uk/FamGod-1.htm


Ebook by Kindle. ASIN: B01AVLC9WO
In Jesus, we are to be solitary Royal Priests.
Test for twice-born:-
https://youtu.be/__X89iAI_cE
http://www.gnosticgospel.co.uk/antichrist.htm
Flesh + soul = Once-born natural Disciple of the Rabbis
Flesh + soul + spirit = Twice-born sensible Labouring son of God
Fanatics are super ******* Devils – John 8v44:-
http://www.gnosticgospel.co.uk/seedterr.htm
http://www.gnosticgospel.co.uk/fanbastards.htm
Much confused Trinity is explained:-
Playlist:- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0C8AFaJhsWyU_oUMJodHvSZGoNDPk5bu
John's baptism:-
http://www.gnosticgospel.co.uk/johnsig.pdf
Please print these pages to understand Baani as well:-
Punjabi Book:-
www.gnosticgospel.co.uk/pdbook.pdf
www.gnosticgospel.co.uk/trinity.pdf

[nijjhar]

Watch my Youtube video for the definition of a Hindu:-

https://youtu.be/9Ap0ipLsnuo

[neel6318]

Punjabi - Antonym of Hindu is a *******. So, learn the basics.


The origin of this word Hindu is from Hond or tribal identity, Jaati aur Baasi. When a stranger comes into a village, we ask him, "Ton Hunda kaun ho"? Or kiss kaa dodhh sae rae. In reply, he would tell you his Hond, identity, by telling his Jaati aur Baasi.


Here, I tell you famous bastards. Bhagat Bidar was born of the Temple Daasi and he was not allowed to marry or possess tribal property but to devote his life for worship of Parbrahm, God, Allah, etc. Lord Krishna listened to his discourses. Jesus called such Bastards born of the Dasi "Mustard seeds" and Jesus Himself was the second Adam, an anointed Mustard Seed. In India, the bastards born of the daasis are called "Harijans". Hari is from Hari Om Shanti of the Hindus whilst in Sikhs, we have Harjan, the Bhagats.



For you Sir: Nijjhar Ji,


The term Hindu implied a geographic, ethnic or cultural identifier for people living in the Indian subcontinent (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_subcontinent) around or beyond the Sindhu (Indus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus)) river.[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu#cite_note-hawleynarayanan-6) Ref.: Wikipedia; also being taught same by Educators/Teachers/Mentors.

History of our Gotra Sangwan is not by any village name but I am also not updated with "how we became Sangwan?" . Some stories are connected with history of Rana Sanga and some with Sangu people.

It is really disheartened to me (might be literal/ignorant for others), when you called "us" being sons of prostitute serving every village. Might that be a history during Mughal period but succeeding generation have collected history of many gotra origins and shared it via Wikipedia for anonymous knowledge.

Yes, I agree that some might be known/called b**t**d* as IVF treatment has helped even our community well to get heir/heiress of the left property of deceased. May God bless all!

Nobody, pinpointed on you for being so blunt and disgraceful for origin status. However, if I look on other side, I am really happy to find that we Jats have learnt to be ignorant for irrelevant cause. Respect cannot be stolen or snatched by any stronger/supreme but it is always earned even after death.

Did not want to extend your or mine opinion on same but just can't resist myself to be silent anymore. Rest, I also do not chase anybody.

Thanks, Neelam

[lrburdak]

Hindu (हिन्दू) refers to any person who regards themselves as culturally, ethnically, or religiously adhering to aspects of Brahmanical Hinduism.

See more https://www.jatland.com/home/Hindu

[DevArbikshe]

20076

dekhlo jo log aankhe band karke hinduism ko defend karte hai, i am not against any religion but agar koi ye bolega toh aankhe band nahi rakh sakte

[DevArbikshe]

झज्जर के बुढया ने गर्मी सेध री से | दिमाग में जा क लागी सीधी | lime light me aana seekh ge buddhle bhi..kadde gotra vivaad ar kadde issi-2 byaan baaji

Bhai vo nahi sathiyaye, sach bol rahe hain, just look waht is happening in Haryana 35 castes vs jats , those who claim to represent hinduism are against jatts and don't forget if you read up history you would find we were not hindus originally.मैं तो थक गया हूँ जाटो के खिलाफ नफरत , ज़हर सोशल मीडिया पर देखकर। जाटो ने कितनो को बचाया , गरीबों के लिए काम किये, दबे कुचलों के हक्क की लड़ाई लड़ी और आज कोई जैन ,शर्मा वगैरह आकर उन्ही को गाली दे रहे हैं और झूठ बोलते हैं की जाटों ने गरीबो को दबाया !

[neel6318]

Hindu (हिन्दू) refers to any person who regards themselves as culturally, ethnically, or religiously adhering to aspects of Brahmanical Hinduism

............Right!

[neel6318]

Bhai vo nahi sathiyaye, sach bol rahe hain, just look waht is happening in Haryana 35 castes vs jats , those who claim to represent hinduism are against jatts and don't forget if you read up history you would find we were not hindus originally.मैं तो थक गया हूँ जाटो के खिलाफ नफरत , ज़हर सोशल मीडिया पर देखकर। जाटो ने कितनो को बचाया , गरीबों के लिए काम किये, दबे कुचलों के हक्क की लड़ाई लड़ी और आज कोई जैन ,शर्मा वगैरह आकर उन्ही को गाली दे रहे हैं और झूठ बोलते हैं की जाटों ने गरीबो को दबाया !

That's just a political punch other power trying. This has happened in past too. One who can influence majority as a sign of serenity. Let the strife go ahead to get a name in honor! Let the custom take an Oath!

[AbhikRana]

As rightly pointed out by fellow members, we do not adhere to the caste based hierarchy or scheme of things as postulated by the Manuwadi brahmans. And that is the reason, these people spread false stories denigrating the Jats over the ages. We are a fiercely proud community which believes in honour, respect and care for the downtrodden and weaker sections of the society.

So much of hatred and prejudice against Jats almost everywhere. Be it the media, employers, society in general or even the judiciary (1000 year old khap panchayats are kangaroo courts for them, Witch hunting of Jats initiated in the name of false and frivolous Murthal media report, removing from service of Jats who had already joined after getting reservation, etc etc)

What is the way ahead? Few of the brothers suggested leaving Hinduism. If we leave Hinduism, do we convert to other religion or create our own?

Out of all the religions, Budhism is the closest to Hinduism as even Sikhs have the caste system and we cannot expect to become Muslims (who as per recorded history invaded and looted us). Islam and Christianity are totally alien concepts to us from foreign lands. Budhism will give us the minority status and rights and a new identity separate from the rotten caste based system in Hindus.

The second option is that we create a new religion - Jatism or something similar. However, at present we do not have set rules, procedures, rituals, laws, etc in place which will guide us in our day to day life for this new religion. and without rules and laws, it will be a very chaotic situation where nobody is clear or certain as to how to celebrate birth, marriage, property laws etc etc. In the absence of set rules and procedures we will be like nomadic tribals without any intellectual or cultural depth. And preparing the religious, rules, procedures, etc is a long drawn time consuming process requiring contribution, patience, discipline and adherence from all of us.

As shown by a post with a picture above, they are ganging up against us. We need to be prepared and stay on our guard for any eventuality as a community.

[neel6318]

So much of hatred and prejudice against Jats almost everywhere. Be it the media, employers, society in general or even the judiciary (1000 year old khap panchayats are kangaroo courts for them, Witch hunting of Jats initiated in the name of false and frivolous Murthal media report, removing from service of Jats who had already joined after getting reservation, etc etc).

True! Very soon we will have the statistical count on hatred among/against. Might be proved as fallacious talk by me as member. I am familiar with very few numbers who among Jats show hatred being a Jat. May God bless them!! Intercaste marriage is the outcome after making it hay-way by Jat strata. Anyway, I also cannot deny "we are secular" people.

P.S. no personal comments. :):)

[DevArbikshe]

As rightly pointed out by fellow members, we do not adhere to the caste based hierarchy or scheme of things as postulated by the Manuwadi brahmans. And that is the reason, these people spread false stories denigrating the Jats over the ages. We are a fiercely proud community which believes in honour, respect and care for the downtrodden and weaker sections of the society.

So much of hatred and prejudice against Jats almost everywhere. Be it the media, employers, society in general or even the judiciary (1000 year old khap panchayats are kangaroo courts for them, Witch hunting of Jats initiated in the name of false and frivolous Murthal media report, removing from service of Jats who had already joined after getting reservation, etc etc)

What is the way ahead? Few of the brothers suggested leaving Hinduism. If we leave Hinduism, do we convert to other religion or create our own?

Out of all the religions, Budhism is the closest to Hinduism as even Sikhs have the caste system and we cannot expect to become Muslims (who as per recorded history invaded and looted us). Islam and Christianity are totally alien concepts to us from foreign lands. Budhism will give us the minority status and rights and a new identity separate from the rotten caste based system in Hindus.

The second option is that we create a new religion - Jatism or something similar. However, at present we do not have set rules, procedures, rituals, laws, etc in place which will guide us in our day to day life for this new religion. and without rules and laws, it will be a very chaotic situation where nobody is clear or certain as to how to celebrate birth, marriage, property laws etc etc. In the absence of set rules and procedures we will be like nomadic tribals without any intellectual or cultural depth. And preparing the religious, rules, procedures, etc is a long drawn time consuming process requiring contribution, patience, discipline and adherence from all of us.

As shown by a post with a picture above, they are ganging up against us. We need to be prepared and stay on our guard for any eventuality as a community.


Buddhism is the answer in my humble opinion.

[neel6318]

Buddhism is the answer in my humble opinion.


Budhism will give us the minority status and rights and a new identity separate from the rotten caste based system in Hindus.

As per your preference, you want to grab minority status and would definitely serve the country then as a deputed UPSC rank civilian. :nonchalance:

So, I find one from the herd of sheeps who want to be different. :suspicion:

[DevArbikshe]

Who are you calling sheeps?

[/I][/COLOR]As per your preference, you want to grab minority status and would definitely serve the country then as a deputed UPSC rank civilian. :nonchalance:

So, I find one from the herd of sheeps who want to be different. :suspicion:

[DevArbikshe]

Pot calling the kettle black is the new order in this country. No wonder it is still a 3rd world country.
You are free to follow Hinduism, but 'a sheep calling others sheep' is hilarious. It's similar to andh bhakts of rss and bjp who are themselves what they call others. But it's ok you see what you want to and not the truth. And little do you know that I did clear nda conducted by upsc but due to knock knees i could not be selected, so out in the medical filtering. i have cleared several exams, worked for customs and excise and still working for govt of india .

you are merely projecting. Can't save 'sheeps' who don't want to be saved. good luck

Also, you're not the first person I have seen who is a typical 'upsc rat race fan' , I see plenty, and everything has its place , you really think I don't understand the connotations you were trying to convey through your poorly formed mumble jumble ? And peeps out of upsc are living amazing lives, get out of your well.

[neel6318]

Who are you calling sheeps?

No problem, people can call themselves a goat if sheep does not sound good for any trait.

I hope people try to understand the meaning inside rather than scared of name calling.

Thanks n Regards!!

[DevArbikshe]

I don't want to stoop to your level of mud slinging, okay be happy, call us whatever you want, doesn't change a thing. We're humans, you can be a lioness , happy now. Good bye
P.S. It's not my fault that you can't distinguish an individualistic thinker and a blind follower , 'sheep' is used for blind followers, get it... why it is mud slinging ?

No problem, people can call themselves a goat if sheep does not sound good for any trait.

I hope people try to understand the meaning inside rather than scared of name calling.

Thanks n Regards!!

[neel6318]

Pot calling the kettle black is the new order in this country. No wonder it is still a 3rd world country.
You are free to follow Hinduism, but 'a sheep calling others sheep' is hilarious. It's similar to andh bhakts of rss and bjp who are themselves what they call others. But it's ok you see what you want to and not the truth. And little do you know that I did clear nda conducted by upsc but due to knock knees i could not be selected, so out in the medical filtering. i have cleared several exams, worked for customs and excise and still working for govt of india .

you are merely projecting. Can't save 'sheeps' who don't want to be saved. good luck

Also, you're not the first person I have seen who is a typical 'upsc rat race fan' , I see plenty, and everything has its place , you really think I don't understand the connotations you were trying to convey through your poorly formed mumble jumble ? And peeps out of upsc are living amazing lives, get out of your well.

Well! it is always good to know variety. Thanks for sharing detailed information!

I did not mind you calling me a sheep, because its always Marry who have the little Lamb. Wow!!

[AbhikRana]

Why Jat or Jatism cannot be a religion in the near future!

A religion is nothing but a way of life with set guidelines and procedures starting from birth to death.

All religions of the world have developed these guidelines over a period of 100's to 1000's of years. In the absence of these set guidelines, the group of people are nothing but a barbarian tribe who do not have a set universally accepted practice or guideline. it becomes a 'free for all' tribal way of life.

The aim of any religion is to propagate the message of God or the Wise/holy men. Jats are a a close knit race having a distinct DNA/characteristics and hence cannot accommodate people from other races. If we do accept people from different races/cultures into the newly founded religion (Jat), we would have lost our distinctiveness and if we do not accept other people into our newly founded Jat religion, we will be numerically decimated over a period of time or would become one of the oppressed minorities like the Yazidis, considering the fact that the birth rate among the Jats has fallen drastically.

Either which ways, Jatism can never be a religion especially in the short run as we lack specific, certain and clearly outlined written code unlike other religions to guide such life events as birth, death, adoption, inheritance, etc. And in the absence of such clearly outlined written code, even if we try to be people of this new religion, we will be nothing but a group of stone age tribal people fighting with each other, each proclaiming to be right over a certain aspect of customs/code.

We cannot grow organically at a fast pace because of the increasing trend of nuclear and small families. We cannot grow inorganically because being a race we have a separate DNA/culture and we cannot afford to get it mixed with outside DNA/Culture if we have to keep a separate identity especially because that would defeat the very purpose of having a separate religion.

Hence, for Jats to have a separate religion, in my opinion at least as of now, would require two things:
a. To undertake an exercise of coding a new religious law governing all aspects of our life. This will be a painstaking exercise stretching over decades because it would entail studying the various faiths of the world and imbibing the enlightened aspects from them and adapting them to our community's specific requirements.
b. To grow organically in numbers by increasing the birth rate. There are certain faiths like the Parsis which encourage their members to have more children and certain incentives are offered to people to have more children in terms of housing, education, etc.

[Siddharth1012]

We are not Hindus Historic declaration by Khap Panchyats
Jhajjar 2 August.



In a significant development Khap heads of various khaps from Haryana Up and Rajasthan clarified Jats are not Hindus .Speaking on this occasion veteran Jat Historian Professor Bhalle Ram Beniwal who wrote a book on Jat History clarified that we were Boddhs historically a religion destroyed by onslaught of Brahmanical Hinduism .Jats always fought against this Hinduism and became Muslim ,Sikh and even Arya Samaji in protest of this Varna Vayvastha advocating religion. When Swami Dayanand Visited Haryana and tried to bring back Jats under Hindu fold ,his move was opposed by Priests who declared Jats unfit for Thread as Holy thread is only for Divija and Jats are Adivija not twice born.

Choudhary Jile Singh Dhankhard head of Dhankhar Khap exposed design of hindutava forces when he says first Jats are called Hindus than they are called Adivaija ,which leave us to lower rank vaisha and Sudra ,Since Jats were never Vaishy so automatically becomes Sudra in Hindu fold .We have been Kashtriyas and should see game plan of Hindutava agents to degrade us.

Speaking on this occasion another historian who authored book on Jat History demanded Minority status for Jat community .He clarified since no ceremony was held to reconvert us from Buddhism we should not be treated as Hindus and Hindu laws under which Khap of Kadians is prosecuted does not apply to us.

Call it by any name Jat religion or Jatissm but we are not Hindus and our custom and traditions are different from their custom and traditions (gotra exclusion, Kareva partha etc..)explained a majority of Khap Bujjargs at this occasion.

I have read jaat itihas by thakur deshraj, hr had mentioned some facts like how bharams created hindu sanatan dhram and rajputs, jaat gurjaar ahir says no to hindu dhram but some gotr who joined hindu dhram qere called rajputs and they called us as shudr, with time jaat get into hindu dhram

[Siddharth1012]

Do you personally support that jaat are not hindu,
I support it
Is there any chance that we leave hindu religion and live only as jaat

[chahal07jat]

जाटों को ये निर्णय तो लेना ही पड़ेगा की वो पहले जाट हैं या पहले हिन्दू । हिंदुओं में हम कोई उच्च जातियों में तो हैं नहीं जो हमें हिन्दू धर्म से बेहद मोह हो । हम जाट हैं और हमें जाट होने पर गर्व महसूस होना चाहिए । जब यादव और गुर्जर जैसी जातियों को आरक्षण मिल रहा है तो जाटों के साथ भेदभाव क्यों किया गया है ?

[karan]

Don't listen to those Moron's. They just want to be remarkable at their age they are looking for some name recognition. As one wise man once said, "Nothing is so common as the wish to be remarkable." all these leaders couldn't their own families together but they do have expertise on how to run everything under sun. They are nothing more than free loader losers.



Rightly said bro....... today they are calling us non hindus, tommorow anything else....... haven't they heard of freedom of religion........ and these some so called Buddhijivi Jats will creat problems for whole community.

[karan]

All this non-sense is about getting reservation. Reservation is asked by those who are "just losers" don't have the skills, abilities to make it on their own. These are the same people who ask for "Dahej".
The politics of yore is coming to bite us all. What traditions are different? We are all sanantan Dharam.

I have read jaat itihas by thakur deshraj, hr had mentioned some facts like how bharams created hindu sanatan dhram and rajputs, jaat gurjaar ahir says no to hindu dhram but some gotr who joined hindu dhram qere called rajputs and they called us as shudr, with time jaat get into hindu dhram