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phoolkumar
March 19th, 2010, 12:19 AM
Disclaimer: This is my personal opinion on what should be and should not be in a civil society of mera samaaj…so should not be taken or applied on or to a society, justice body or person. Purpose is to put views and suggestions on the desk of mera samaaj ofcourse…because “Change is the rule of Time and the societies or particular groups of people who follow it create the new society of new generation who knows how to nurture mera samaaj with the beautiful combination of traditional customs and advanced current global social development.

So I start now on my real topic: “Justice of Khap Panchayats on within same gotra/village marriages…how far fair, how far wrong?”

Well ofcourse there is no need to tell whom I am calling here if taken on general then it could be applied to any part of India where such Panchayats rule and decide the norms for living in society. But in particular the incidents and reasons which intend me to write are happening around almost 200 KMs radius taking New Delhi as center.

In this radius as far as I know, there have been some thumb rules not just rules but golden rules which defines the very higher and I would say perhaps the most developed standards of living a healthy and prosperous peaceful and respective life. Ofcouse when these rules were defined there have been many considerations including scientific as well as religious and social harmony traits.

One among these is:
“In your home village and Gotra…every girl is a sister and every boy is a brother…doesnt matter of which caste if he or she is from same village…doesnt matter if he or she is from same gotra from around the world, in short and standard “Gaon aur Gout mein sab bhaai-bahan.”

Note: We Jats are forgetting to follow one pricipal given by Swami Dayananda Sarswati that I am giving the principles of Arya Samaaj but these would require time to time attention and discussions, to nurture and keep them enrich and demanding in future societies. The only thing we will need to do is to reform them, restructure them but not to forget or throw-out from society like a wound because these are our identities. But how...???

For me, in such cases of same gotra/village marriages giving punishment of excile is ok because it has been the standard and our holy vedic adaptation too but converting the husband and wife to brother-sister is like there is no respect or status of the holy relation of brother and sister....and anyone can be brother and sister..there should be a boundry in defining the relations....to me excile is a better solution than converting them into brother-sister. How far it is good that to teach some one a lesson for their mistake, make the joke of brother-sister relation (sibling relation)...give them excile if they are in mistake but dont insist boundryless decisions. And that is why perhaps the Highcourt of Punjab and Haryana is angry with Panchayats.

I will put more details on this topic in my next edition with explanations and consequences happening around this rule in our mera samaaj and how this rule is losing the identity and how it could be saved if it deserve so with an analysis on its relevancy to current system and society where these traits not only have to fight with their own people but the reasons because of which these traits are on halt to starve and survive and how can Khaps and Panchayats could be useful and could do favorable to society.

phoolkumar
March 20th, 2010, 02:21 PM
Thanks Jatland Form for approval and publication of this article.

I hope you make agree with me that in any society around the world, we cant put on halt or throw the priceless ancestor's traditions and customs but in parallel we cant also close our eyes from changes happening around the socieities.

Keeping this vision in mind I have started this thread, so I would like to welcome and discuss views, feedbacks and comments from you viewers and thinkers (youngers, matures and elders all) on this open discussion platform.

phoolkumar
March 31st, 2010, 05:04 AM
How can Khaps play a vital role in standardization and reformation of societies, some suggestions?

First scenario: Under the dark shadows of increasing cases of honor killings, I was talking with few of my friends from Punjabi community in Haryana on marriages norms defined in their societies to see if really Jats are the only who are still following the so called orthodox traditions. They said that yes we also leave the surname of our father and in special cases the surname of our mother too but not compulsory but we hardly or perhaps not at all go for self-defined decisions and courts (these were their comments as per their best knowledge so if by chance these are not real, I do sorry but such comments makes the discussion healthy and enrich ourselves with surroundings, citation is needed from readers if someone could or might better known and explain any of the other societies views under such scenarios).

So if I try to set a resemblance in their norms and Jat community norms (sound on big scale but can be any community) differences are not big but their norms seems much better flexible, revised and adjusting to new generation. Jat community also has a good set but seems they have lost compatibility or forgotten the necessity for setting up the compatibility. So one good scope where community khaps could be contributive is investigating and reading these traditions and norms accepted in other societies, particularly on marriages and compare them. Go for open discussions and get the involvement of all communities and also the representatives of Punjab and Haryana High court.

I am totally against the honor killing, converting already married couples to brothers and sisters because these kinds of decisions are either seen as time killing for the decisive bodies or carry some personal jealous or ego issues. Such decisions can never carry a real spirit of true justice.

Second Scenario: Young generation is unknown and unable to set compatibility between what they see outside the village (in cities) or through televisions and ground level village community traditions and norms. They don’t find themselves comfortable when facing the new life of cities or town because either they may have not been made informed with or told about it. But they find the relevancy what is shown on TVs to city lives so consequently starts considering it as the standard without knowing the bad and negative impacts of it on their life following their societies. Village culture is put on halt by some high aspirant people living in cities and is criticized as known good for nothing. Consequently this gives a negative impression of their mother culture to new entrants in city life and they intend or decide to follow the city trends not only in terms of earnings but as social too. Overall saying is this that we have to make the villages’ culture, customs and values as standardized and shouted as the cities one. The city one is nothing but the reformed and revised set of village culture itself. The only need is of a mediocre who could pass the good of both cultures to new and young generations. And this is where Khap Panchayats have the vital, wide and really very respect gaining and good will creating role for them.

It is really ridiculous that there is hardly seen a serial on Haryanvi culture which shows the real Haryanvi values of national level (SAB TV is showing one such serial called “Na aana laado is desh”) as has been enhanced by our neighbors. Panchayats should come on this platform, start conferences, discussions and request TV channels, producers, TV serial directors to produce something relevant to our society and custom. Encourage such people on moral bases as well as supporting them financially so that at least there should be one serial on TV channels like Star TV, Zee TV, Sahara TV and all other such national level channels. Jat communities are known for social reforms; remind yourself of Arya Samaaj, you people only have opened Gurukuls, throughout India (North India in specific) and that too without any governmental aid with your own charity. So now is the time to do this charity for these kinds of activities.

Today every home in Haryana has either its on TV set, computer with Internet accessibility or in the worst case if you don’t have TV in your home, your next door neighbors must have it. TV is the most entertaining and knowledge gaining medium for children. So Khaps panchayats can unite on this platform, there is no better medium other than TV to make you children of modern age knowing your custom and traditions too. This is not only the way of emphasizing Khap Panchayats role and good will to society but many more too like in schools through moral classes, in families through grand-parents, in villages through respective and honorable elder. All these have to come ahead and take their responsibility and then see there would not be any such case in future neither from side neither of young generation nor from the Khaps Panchayats.

There is nothing done yet but a lot is to do. I will keep discussing in my next editions on such ways and reforms. In the mean time your views and feedback are expected and important to give a horizontal direction to this discussion.

Phool Kumar

rocker88
April 1st, 2010, 03:46 PM
Khaps should be totally abolished.They are of no use. More than 99% judgments are made under ego/jealousy/ self satisfaction/externally motivated/influenced.
First of all khaps leaders should start from their family first.

Same gotra marriage are no big issues that could justify murders at any point..
Every khaps/panchayat or any other such stinking systems should try to remember that in their age at night how many houses they have jumped in their village itself or how long they have waited in the fields ... ..:rock .It seems most of the boys/girls from a same village are of same gotras....HAHAAAAAAAA
In todays world most of the peoples are not remembering their castes gotra is a too big deal..
Instead of circling the HOOKAH & giving ridiculous judgments ,Go and try to educate some poor kids or clear the Nalis(drainage systems) & prevent mosquito breedings, Summers are coming or else die with malaria/dengue.
Initially I thought JATS are great being/culture/tradition/attitude but now i feel they too are becoming just like other castes.
Its still time there we can change & give back the original glory to JATS.
Lets start from our home..

Note: Please don't try to show Jat attitude here on jatland.com.All peoples are jat here, so A monkey calling A monkey is of no use..

Regards..

jitender.singh
April 3rd, 2010, 02:12 PM
I have been quoting the following from Wiki:

Hindu Mythology:
===========
In the Mahabharata, one of the two great Hindu Epics, Arjuna took as his fourth wife his first and cross cousin Subhadra, the sister of Krishna. Arjuna had gone into exile alone after having disturbed Yudhisthira and Draupadi in their private quarters. It was during the last part of his exile, while staying at the Dvaraka residence of his cousins, that he fell in love with Subhadra. While eating at the home of Balaramaji, Arjuna was struck with Subhadra's beauty and decided he would obtain her as his wife. Subhadra and Arjuna's son was the tragic hero Abhimanyu. Abhimanyu himself married his first cross-cousin Sasirekha, the daughter of Subhadra's brother Balarama, meaning that first-cousin marriage occurred in the same family for two consecutive generations. Later, Abhimanyu and his other wife Uttara had a son, Parikshit, who eventually succeeded Yudhisthira as the emperor of the Pandava kingdom after Abhimanyu was killed at Kurukshetra.

Hindu Marriage Act:
=============
In Hinduism marriage within the same gotra is prohibited, where a gotra is believed to be the group of descendants of a sage who lived in the remote past. Two persons in the same gotra cannot marry even if they come from different linguistic areas. However, same-gotra marriages have been legal under Indian civil law since the Hindu Marriage Act of 1955. Additionally, marriages within certain degrees of consanguinity are considered sapinda and banned in Hinduism. Hindu lawgivers differ in the definition of sapinda: at one extreme, according to some sources marriages are prohibited within seven generations on the father's side and five on the mother's side. In contrast, other sources allow cross cousins to marry, including first cross cousins. The Hindu Marriage Act bars marriage for five generations on the father's side and three on the mother's side, but allows cross-cousin marriage where it is permitted by custom.

Genetic Impact:
==========
Cousin marriage has genetic aspects that do not arise in the case of other marriage-related political and social issues like interracial marriage. This is because married couples possessing higher than normal consanguinity have, on average, an increased chance of sharing genes for recessive traits. Consanguinity means the amount of shared (identical) DNA, the genetic material. The percentage of consanguinity between any two individuals decreases fourfold as the most recent common ancestor recedes one generation. To cite some examples, first cousins have four times the consanguinity of second cousins, while first cousins once removed have half that of first cousins. Rare double first cousins have twice that of first cousins and are as related as half-siblings.

Jat Customs:
========
In order to avoid the second cousin marriages, we drafted the rule of marriages in community called lineage exclusion rule (called as gotra exclusion rule). Earlier it was strictly a lineage exclusion rule as we used to have closed paternal relations within the same gotra, closed maternal relations within the mother's and grandmother's gotra. It was drafted to avoid the second cousin marriages in the community.
Over the times the community grew, so did the gotras. But more worryingly, we forgot about the core issue and associated it with shallow honour, as we grew treating girl as inferior in the society and girls' family as inferior to boys' family in marriage functions. This has lead us to current problem, where we don't know if the issue is genetic or honour issue.
My suggestion as solution to the problem is following:
a. Same gotra marriages should be discouraged, not because it affects the honour of the family, but it risks genetic disorder to the offspring of the couple. (we are already doing the same)
b. If in case we get to know a potential same gotra marriage, rather than being hostile and repulsive, we should get the boy and girl (possibly with their family) counselled with doctors, only if they are first or second cousins. Our society needs to be honest towards the problem.
c. For the same gotra couples (who have already married), get them counselled through doctors as well, if they happen to be first or second cousins.

brahmtewatia
April 6th, 2010, 06:53 PM
tradition is generally defined as long-standing beliefs, practices or customs that have been handed down from one generation to the next. every culture, every race or group of people have their own rich customs nd traditions. in thinking about the importance of tradition, traditions are practiced throughout every civilization known to man nd have several key elements. in specific nd with JAT’s in particular… i would focus on only two aspects of our traditions...

(1). traditions have guardians such as historians, panchayti’s, khandwe wale khap chaudharies that have access or suppose to have the knowledge or the truth of tradition's sacred rituals.

(2). tradition stirs emotion within individuals to bring about a greater sense of self-awareness. in some cultures, like ours these rituals are important to one's self-identity within the context of a larger society.

that being said, the problem comes when these two belief’s of tradition come in way of changing times. you can treat the global age today as a battle between modernity and tradition. family traditions are, unfortunately, one of the great casualties of modern times. as families become more fragmented nd disconnected, there is less time nd opportunity to enjoy the simple traditions that were once a natural part of family life… sad, but true !

many of us remember nd miss the little rituals that formed the basis of our own childhood, yet don’t see a way to fit them into a life that is so different from that of our parents when we were growing up.

traditions nd rituals change with the passage of time as we evolve. new traditions nd ways of living come in force every single day to ease out complexities of our erstwhile traditions nd for the betterment of our lives. sometimes, we even chose them as per our convenience. there is no "one size fits all" solution to today’s increasingly complicated family situations, instead fit your traditions to your family situation and the people in it.

the law of universe gives everyone equal opportunity to embrace this world nd you only live once.

this however, can never negate the existence nd importance of our century old traditions nd rituals. but a dictatorial attitude, as that of khaps does no good, but to remind us of our barbarous past, when we were evolving. every parents try their utmost to inculcate the very best of virtue’s in their sibblings. if we find few off-beat couple choosing their destiny against our customs, so be it… let them live their own life. these are just few cases that you can count on tips nd by no means will disturb the genetic dna code of jats.

dkumars
April 8th, 2010, 02:44 PM
I have been quoting the following from Wiki:

Hindu Mythology:
===========
In the Mahabharata, one of the two great Hindu Epics, Arjuna took as his fourth wife his first and cross cousin Subhadra, the sister of Krishna. Arjuna had gone into exile alone after having disturbed Yudhisthira and Draupadi in their private quarters. It was during the last part of his exile, while staying at the Dvaraka residence of his cousins, that he fell in love with Subhadra. While eating at the home of Balaramaji, Arjuna was struck with Subhadra's beauty and decided he would obtain her as his wife. Subhadra and Arjuna's son was the tragic hero Abhimanyu. Abhimanyu himself married his first cross-cousin Sasirekha, the daughter of Subhadra's brother Balarama, meaning that first-cousin marriage occurred in the same family for two consecutive generations. Later, Abhimanyu and his other wife Uttara had a son, Parikshit, who eventually succeeded Yudhisthira as the emperor of the Pandava kingdom after Abhimanyu was killed at Kurukshetra.

Hindu Marriage Act:
=============
In Hinduism marriage within the same gotra is prohibited, where a gotra is believed to be the group of descendants of a sage who lived in the remote past. Two persons in the same gotra cannot marry even if they come from different linguistic areas. However, same-gotra marriages have been legal under Indian civil law since the Hindu Marriage Act of 1955. Additionally, marriages within certain degrees of consanguinity are considered sapinda and banned in Hinduism. Hindu lawgivers differ in the definition of sapinda: at one extreme, according to some sources marriages are prohibited within seven generations on the father's side and five on the mother's side. In contrast, other sources allow cross cousins to marry, including first cross cousins. The Hindu Marriage Act bars marriage for five generations on the father's side and three on the mother's side, but allows cross-cousin marriage where it is permitted by custom.

Genetic Impact:
==========
Cousin marriage has genetic aspects that do not arise in the case of other marriage-related political and social issues like interracial marriage. This is because married couples possessing higher than normal consanguinity have, on average, an increased chance of sharing genes for recessive traits. Consanguinity means the amount of shared (identical) DNA, the genetic material. The percentage of consanguinity between any two individuals decreases fourfold as the most recent common ancestor recedes one generation. To cite some examples, first cousins have four times the consanguinity of second cousins, while first cousins once removed have half that of first cousins. Rare double first cousins have twice that of first cousins and are as related as half-siblings.

Jat Customs:
========
In order to avoid the second cousin marriages, we drafted the rule of marriages in community called lineage exclusion rule (called as gotra exclusion rule). Earlier it was strictly a lineage exclusion rule as we used to have closed paternal relations within the same gotra, closed maternal relations within the mother's and grandmother's gotra. It was drafted to avoid the second cousin marriages in the community.
Over the times the community grew, so did the gotras. But more worryingly, we forgot about the core issue and associated it with shallow honour, as we grew treating girl as inferior in the society and girls' family as inferior to boys' family in marriage functions. This has lead us to current problem, where we don't know if the issue is genetic or honour issue.
My suggestion as solution to the problem is following:
a. Same gotra marriages should be discouraged, not because it affects the honour of the family, but it risks genetic disorder to the offspring of the couple. (we are already doing the same)
b. If in case we get to know a potential same gotra marriage, rather than being hostile and repulsive, we should get the boy and girl (possibly with their family) counselled with doctors, only if they are first or second cousins. Our society needs to be honest towards the problem.
c. For the same gotra couples (who have already married), get them counselled through doctors as well, if they happen to be first or second cousins.

Dont forget these same gotra marriages are Love marriages mostly and love is blind. Love doesn't pay heed to any doctor, society etc :)

vijay
April 12th, 2010, 11:38 AM
Significance of these Khaps was obvious in the past when law and order system was not that good and most of the social issues used to be settled at the village and Khap level. Even court used to substantiate their decsion at first hand.

If we look at the contribution of Khap Panchayat's since last 50 years or so, they are not doing justice to their existance for which they used to be known in the past. For an educated youth, these khaps seems an orthodox structure where some people are forcing their thousand years old traditions on the mass, with or without reasons.

These days, generally, the Khaps are mainly involved in declaring fatwas and are being used as vote banks by the politicians. Morever, the political penetration in almost every shpere of our lives making the scenario much worse than it should be. Power games are being played between the diferent Khaps as well as within the respective Khaps. The decision made by these Khaps are not universally accepted within the Khaps leave aside the mass acceptance. Influencive people in the Khaps try to impose their power on the less influencive people and people who felt being neglected or unheard goes to the court.

These Khaps remains in the News only for the Honor Killings and FORCED brother sister relationships. Did they ever made any headline by putting up their efforts to eradicate any other social sickness prevailing in the area. End of the day these Khaps just criticize the Media for fabricating their so called false image. It is quite obvious for the Media to portrait them like this because these Khaps are not doing anything expect declaring Fatwas against the married couple ( rightly or wrongly .. that's another matter ). By supporting the Honor Killers these Khaps are confirming that media is not fabricating anything but the THINGS are for REAL.

Same gotra marriage is not appreciated in any Jat Family. But then exceptions are everywhere. Every now and then, people break the laws and so the traditions. There are so many ways to punish such people but nobody have any right to KILL anyone. Neither do anybody can change someone's feelings for others. The Reverse Engineering of forcing them to behave as Brother Sister is more dangerous and may result in spoiling/disgusting the Brother Sister relationship in future.

Youth always believe in the change or modification of the tradition with respect to the advancement of technology, urbanization, education, nucleus families and globalization. But these Khaps seems reluctant to change their views which are based upon the moral values of ancient times and most of that seems insignificant in today's world.

In the present scenario of Globalization, these khaps need some modification in the thousand years old traditions and should amend the certain rules by inducing some flexibilities according the norms of present society to make them more significant and more acceptable to the mass.

MayankKp
April 12th, 2010, 01:07 PM
Look at article posted by Mr. D.R. Chaudhry that came in Tribune on April 11, 2010.

Politicians’ fear of losing vote banks is misplaced as khaps have no following in villages, says D.R. Chaudhry

KARNAL Additional Session Judge’s judgement giving death sentence to five persons, life imprisonment to one and seven years’ jail to another in a case of honour killing in Haryana’s Kaithal district will serve as a strong deterrent on the depredations of khap panchayats.

Honour killing is the most grotesque and barbarous manifestation of gender discrimination in the male-dominated society. In such an ethos, woman is a commodity possessed by the male and the family’s honour is associated with her. If she deviates from social mores, she is supposed to bring dishonour to the family whose prestige is restored by killing her. If her male partner too meets a similar fate, it is only a collateral damage unavoidable in given circumstances as it happened with Manoj who married Babli, a girl of his own village, in the present case.

The practice of honour killing is prevalent in a feudal set up with tribal hangover — Haryana, Delhi dehat, western Uttar Pradesh and Punjab and some areas in Rajasthan near Delhi and in Islamic countries. About 300 women are killed every year in Pakistan and the corresponding figure in Bangladesh is more than 200.

Yemen, a small country, had about 400 cases of honour killing in 1997. According to one estimate, about 10 per cent of murders in Punjab and Haryana falls in the category of honour killing.

The institution of khap panchayat, largely prevailing in areas around Delhi is the site where honour killing is executed to perpetuate gender discrimination in its most revolting form. It is a medieval institution when people were divided into clans. Its primary aim was to provide security to its members in an age marked by lawlessness and to settle disputes among its members.

The khap panchayat is either gotra-centric or a territorial entity. The Sarv khap panchyat is a council of different khaps in a particular area held to deliberate on some important issue. The institution covered different caste groups in the past.

Sorem in Mujaffar Nagar district of western UP, is supposed to be the headquarters of the Sarv khap panchayat since the medieval times when Haryana was a much larger entity. The records of the institution maintained by a family of this village and consulted by this writer while doing fieldwork on khap in this area, reveals that this institution encompassed different caste groups. In one of the panchayats at Shikarpur during Allaudin Khilji’s reign to oppose zazia — a tax imposed on Hindus — was attended by representatives of all castes — Jats, Gurjars, Rajputs, Raves, Sainis, Tagas, Brahmins, Banias, Dalits, etc. It maintained militia for defence in which women warriors too had their place. In another panchayat at Sorem in 1954, a Gurjar was unanimously elected as president, a Rajput as a vice-president and a Jat as its general secretary. Thus, there was no discrimination on grounds of caste or sex earlier in this institution.

Khap today is a pale replica of its past, undemocratic in its structure and functioning. Women, who constitute about half the population, have no place in it. Such panchayats often issue edicts having vital impact on lives of women but they have no right to have their say. Similarly, weaker sections are kept out of its ambit. It has no electic principle. Its headship is either hereditary or some one is asked to preside over the meeting on the spot.

It has emasculated the democratically elected panchayats in which women and weaker sections have due representation. It casts a larger than life shadow by issuing outlandish and barbaric fatwas like declaring a married couple as siblings, expelling families from their native habitats and ordering killing of couples.

Khap panchayat today has become an exclusive preserve of the Jat community. Some elements in the landed Jat peasantry try to perpetuate their hegemony in rural hinterland by using khap as a cover. The task is facilitated by the patronage extended to them by political leaders who treat them as vote bank. This nexus explains the studied silence maintained by top political leaders in Haryana on khap atrocities irrespective of the party affiliation.

The only exception is Samsher Singh Surjewala, a senior Congress leader, who has taken a forthright stand against khap. The CPM and its women wing have been consistently crusading against khaps. The fear of losing the vote bank is largely misplaced as the self-styled custodians of social mores in khaps no longer enjoy large following in villages.

Bhaichara (brotherhood) has been the raison d’etre of khap. All the khap members are supposed to be blood relations. This led to several marital taboos like ban on the same-gotra marriage, same-village marriage and marriage in the immediate neighbourhood. Inter-gotra marriage is frowned upon even if the bride is from a distant place if some families of her gotra reside in her in-laws’ village as they treat her as a daughter.

The concept of bhaichara is a myth now. Improved means of communications, transport, mass media and spread of modern education have exposed the rural youth to the outside world and have led many of them to reject the norms of tribal society. Intimacy between two sexes is quite common. So long as this relationship remains behind the scene, no body takes notice of it. When it results into marriage, this is taken as a threat to the hallowed tradition of khap and invites barbarous punishment.

These norms should have undergone some relaxation in tune with the changing times but their rigid observance at present is the root cause of the problem.

It is ignorance of the symbiotic relationship between tradition and modernity which has led to rigidity. Tradition untouched by modernity starts stinking and becomes a drag on society while modernity cut off from tradition is shallow and spurious. It is the harmonious blend of the two that takes society forward.

The Balian khap comprising 84 villages in Mujaffar Nagar district in western UP has shown some relaxation. If there are two gotras of Jats in a particular village, say Balian and Rathi, Balians can bring a Rathi bride from a distant village in the same khap and vice versa. This is an anathema to Jats of Haryana in the khap belt and this gave rise to serious problems in several villages — Meham Kheri in Rohtak district, Samaspur in Bhiwani district, Dharana in Jhajjar district, to give the latest examples.

A more disturbing dimension has been added to the phenomenon today. Some elements have an eye on the property of the family in dispute and manage order of its expulsion from the village to grab its land and house.

The observance of all marital norms of a tribal society has become impractical in modern age.

There are many villages in Haryana’s khap belt which have a plethora of Jat gotras — Samchana village has 15 gotras of Jats in it. Avoiding all these gotras in matrimonial alliance has become a nightmare. However, khap leaders cling to antiquity irrespective of the sea change in society.

Relaxed norms in the Balian Khap have made it progressive in some ways. It has thrown up a powerful peasant movement under the leadership of Mahendra Singh Tikait. Marital disputes hardly find place in the records of this khap.

As late as March 7, 2010, a Sarv khap panchayat at Shamli resolved to launch a campaign in villages to apply a curb on wasteful expenditure in marriages, community feast on the death of an elder, increasing use of liquor and other intoxicants by the youth, female foeticide, etc. Such a reformist exercise is unthinkable in Haryana’s khaps as the marital relationship is the only agenda they take up in all seriousness, perfunctory talk of other things notwithstanding.

Haryana is projected as a progressive state and rightly so. However, there is an ugly flipside too. Sex ratio in Haryana (861) is the worst along with Punjab. Even the sub-Saharan countries of Africa have a better record. To meet this deficit, girls are bought from distant places and sold in Haryana like chattel. While inter-caste and inter-religious marriage is not permissible in the khap belt — and often it leads to bloodshed — no body is bothered about the caste or religion of these hapless girls, who in some cases, are resold after the satiation of the lust of the first buyer.

Charles Darwin made an important discovery in his theory of Evolution of Species. Those species which were rigid and did not adapt themselves to changing times and were devoid of helpful attitude towards each other became extinct while their counterparts who were flexible and caring and compassionate towards each other — ‘compassion’ is the word used by Darwin — flourished. (How far compassionate are the khap stormtroopers is for readers to decide).

Similar is the fate of the hardbound khap elements. They are physically present but phenomenologically extinct. They are the deadwood who act as bottleneck for the flowering of the great potential the Jat community, especially its youth, has. The sooner the community gets rid of them, the better it is.

dkumars
April 13th, 2010, 11:20 AM
I remember Navin Gulia wrote in one post that "The only constant thing in the universe is change"
Hum jitna jaldi isko samjh le achha hai ...
I dont support any of the parties but still change is required very much.
Jo samay ke saath nahi chala woh nast ho gaya ...
How many such traditions we had which needed a change and were changed either by consent or forcefully ... Sati pratha, bal vivah, now caste system also etc etc ...

I heard, Jats used to avoid Nanni's ( maternal Grandma) also but now most of them do not. They have made this amendment in the rule. Similarly, change is required everywhere.

Again I say I do not advocate any of the parties but my general suggestion to jats is to avoid being so rigid and stubborn and accept the change else 'Change' will forcefully make u accept it :)

Jai Jat Jai Gadhe ki poonch .... Jaiiii ho

Samarkadian
April 16th, 2010, 11:57 AM
Look at article posted by Mr. D.R. Chaudhry that came in Tribune on April 11, 2010.

Politicians’ fear of losing vote banks is misplaced as khaps have no following in villages, says D.R. Chaudhry

KARNAL Additional Session Judge’s judgement giving death sentence to five persons, life imprisonment to one and seven years’ jail to another in a case of honour killing in Haryana’s Kaithal district will serve as a strong deterrent on the depredations of khap panchayats.

Honour killing is the most grotesque and barbarous manifestation of gender discrimination in the male-dominated society. In such an ethos, woman is a commodity possessed by the male and the family’s honour is associated with her. If she deviates from social mores, she is supposed to bring dishonour to the family whose prestige is restored by killing her. If her male partner too meets a similar fate, it is only a collateral damage unavoidable in given circumstances as it happened with Manoj who married Babli, a girl of his own village, in the present case.

The practice of honour killing is prevalent in a feudal set up with tribal hangover — Haryana, Delhi dehat, western Uttar Pradesh and Punjab and some areas in Rajasthan near Delhi and in Islamic countries. About 300 women are killed every year in Pakistan and the corresponding figure in Bangladesh is more than 200.

Yemen, a small country, had about 400 cases of honour killing in 1997. According to one estimate, about 10 per cent of murders in Punjab and Haryana falls in the category of honour killing.

The institution of khap panchayat, largely prevailing in areas around Delhi is the site where honour killing is executed to perpetuate gender discrimination in its most revolting form. It is a medieval institution when people were divided into clans. Its primary aim was to provide security to its members in an age marked by lawlessness and to settle disputes among its members.

The khap panchayat is either gotra-centric or a territorial entity. The Sarv khap panchyat is a council of different khaps in a particular area held to deliberate on some important issue. The institution covered different caste groups in the past.

Sorem in Mujaffar Nagar district of western UP, is supposed to be the headquarters of the Sarv khap panchayat since the medieval times when Haryana was a much larger entity. The records of the institution maintained by a family of this village and consulted by this writer while doing fieldwork on khap in this area, reveals that this institution encompassed different caste groups. In one of the panchayats at Shikarpur during Allaudin Khilji’s reign to oppose zazia — a tax imposed on Hindus — was attended by representatives of all castes — Jats, Gurjars, Rajputs, Raves, Sainis, Tagas, Brahmins, Banias, Dalits, etc. It maintained militia for defence in which women warriors too had their place. In another panchayat at Sorem in 1954, a Gurjar was unanimously elected as president, a Rajput as a vice-president and a Jat as its general secretary. Thus, there was no discrimination on grounds of caste or sex earlier in this institution.

Khap today is a pale replica of its past, undemocratic in its structure and functioning. Women, who constitute about half the population, have no place in it. Such panchayats often issue edicts having vital impact on lives of women but they have no right to have their say. Similarly, weaker sections are kept out of its ambit. It has no electic principle. Its headship is either hereditary or some one is asked to preside over the meeting on the spot.

It has emasculated the democratically elected panchayats in which women and weaker sections have due representation. It casts a larger than life shadow by issuing outlandish and barbaric fatwas like declaring a married couple as siblings, expelling families from their native habitats and ordering killing of couples.

Khap panchayat today has become an exclusive preserve of the Jat community. Some elements in the landed Jat peasantry try to perpetuate their hegemony in rural hinterland by using khap as a cover. The task is facilitated by the patronage extended to them by political leaders who treat them as vote bank. This nexus explains the studied silence maintained by top political leaders in Haryana on khap atrocities irrespective of the party affiliation.

The only exception is Samsher Singh Surjewala, a senior Congress leader, who has taken a forthright stand against khap. The CPM and its women wing have been consistently crusading against khaps. The fear of losing the vote bank is largely misplaced as the self-styled custodians of social mores in khaps no longer enjoy large following in villages.

Bhaichara (brotherhood) has been the raison d’etre of khap. All the khap members are supposed to be blood relations. This led to several marital taboos like ban on the same-gotra marriage, same-village marriage and marriage in the immediate neighbourhood. Inter-gotra marriage is frowned upon even if the bride is from a distant place if some families of her gotra reside in her in-laws’ village as they treat her as a daughter.

The concept of bhaichara is a myth now. Improved means of communications, transport, mass media and spread of modern education have exposed the rural youth to the outside world and have led many of them to reject the norms of tribal society. Intimacy between two sexes is quite common. So long as this relationship remains behind the scene, no body takes notice of it. When it results into marriage, this is taken as a threat to the hallowed tradition of khap and invites barbarous punishment.

These norms should have undergone some relaxation in tune with the changing times but their rigid observance at present is the root cause of the problem.

It is ignorance of the symbiotic relationship between tradition and modernity which has led to rigidity. Tradition untouched by modernity starts stinking and becomes a drag on society while modernity cut off from tradition is shallow and spurious. It is the harmonious blend of the two that takes society forward.

The Balian khap comprising 84 villages in Mujaffar Nagar district in western UP has shown some relaxation. If there are two gotras of Jats in a particular village, say Balian and Rathi, Balians can bring a Rathi bride from a distant village in the same khap and vice versa. This is an anathema to Jats of Haryana in the khap belt and this gave rise to serious problems in several villages — Meham Kheri in Rohtak district, Samaspur in Bhiwani district, Dharana in Jhajjar district, to give the latest examples.

A more disturbing dimension has been added to the phenomenon today. Some elements have an eye on the property of the family in dispute and manage order of its expulsion from the village to grab its land and house.

The observance of all marital norms of a tribal society has become impractical in modern age.

There are many villages in Haryana’s khap belt which have a plethora of Jat gotras — Samchana village has 15 gotras of Jats in it. Avoiding all these gotras in matrimonial alliance has become a nightmare. However, khap leaders cling to antiquity irrespective of the sea change in society.

Relaxed norms in the Balian Khap have made it progressive in some ways. It has thrown up a powerful peasant movement under the leadership of Mahendra Singh Tikait. Marital disputes hardly find place in the records of this khap.

As late as March 7, 2010, a Sarv khap panchayat at Shamli resolved to launch a campaign in villages to apply a curb on wasteful expenditure in marriages, community feast on the death of an elder, increasing use of liquor and other intoxicants by the youth, female foeticide, etc. Such a reformist exercise is unthinkable in Haryana’s khaps as the marital relationship is the only agenda they take up in all seriousness, perfunctory talk of other things notwithstanding.

Haryana is projected as a progressive state and rightly so. However, there is an ugly flipside too. Sex ratio in Haryana (861) is the worst along with Punjab. Even the sub-Saharan countries of Africa have a better record. To meet this deficit, girls are bought from distant places and sold in Haryana like chattel. While inter-caste and inter-religious marriage is not permissible in the khap belt — and often it leads to bloodshed — no body is bothered about the caste or religion of these hapless girls, who in some cases, are resold after the satiation of the lust of the first buyer.

Charles Darwin made an important discovery in his theory of Evolution of Species. Those species which were rigid and did not adapt themselves to changing times and were devoid of helpful attitude towards each other became extinct while their counterparts who were flexible and caring and compassionate towards each other — ‘compassion’ is the word used by Darwin — flourished. (How far compassionate are the khap stormtroopers is for readers to decide).

Similar is the fate of the hardbound khap elements. They are physically present but phenomenologically extinct. They are the deadwood who act as bottleneck for the flowering of the great potential the Jat community, especially its youth, has. The sooner the community gets rid of them, the better it is.

One more neo-liberal whinny mouth but ask him the reason beneath the lampooned article. I just do wonder that author has himself got married in the same village and questioning the bhai-chaara.

rakeshsehrawat
April 17th, 2010, 12:45 PM
मै एक छोटे से गाँव में पैदा हुआ वहां मै नौ साल की उम्र तक रहा फिर बाहर पढने चला गया पर मेरा परिवार वहीँ रहा और में छुट्टियों में आता जाता रहा ! मेरा लगाव गाँव के साथ ही रहा दोस्त मुझे शहरो में ही मिले मेरा एक अलग सर्कल बन गया ! मैंने अपने परिवार को भी शहर में ही रख लिया और गाँव में आना जाना कम हो गया !अब में दो तीन महीने में एक बार गाँव जाता हूँ एक या दो दिन के लिए पर गाँव जाने के बाद मेरा वापस आने से मन आज भी कटता है मन आज भी नहर में कूदने का करता है ! आज भी मै जोहड़ में नहाना चाहता हूँ , पींघ पे झूलना चाहता हूँ , खेत में लस्सी गुड और आचार के साथ आम के नीचे रोटी खाना चाहता हूँ ! पिछली बार होली पे घर गया था कोर्डो के निशान मिटने में १५ दिन लगे और जब तक वो दिखे मन अपने आप खुश हो जाता था बहुत साल बाद होली खेली थी ! नीम की चाय में चारपाई दल के सोने में ए सी से ज्यादा मज़ा आता है ! मेरे समझ नहीं आता की ये क्यों है जब मेरा गाँव में सिर्फ एक दो दोस्त ही हैं मेरा सर्कल यहीं है फिर वहां ख़ुशी क्यों मिलती है ?
मै जाटलैंड पर आया और ये देखा "अरे यु तो मेरा गाम ए बटला हो रहया है कत्ती घी सा घल गया" चौपाल में कति वोहे देशी नजारा था वोहे सींग फस रहे थे लोग के खामखा की बात पे ! एक माचना सा शहरी बालक आया और कुछ महारथी उसके पाछे कसुती ढाला पड़ गए और उस ताहि गोसे खुवा के माने! मै कई दिन तक जाटलैंड के पन्ने पढता रहा लोग का लिखा होया देखा वोहे सब तो था जो मेरे गाम में होवे है कई इसी बात भी पढ़ी जो मन्ने भी नहीं बेरा थी कुछ इसी लिखी जो किसे ने नहीं लिखी थी अलगोजा सुनके गाम में फेरी आले याद आ गए अर कत्ती कंप्यूटर के आगे बैठा बैठा गाम की गाल में पहुँच गया ! वो सब जो मेरा खू गया था वो मन्ने उल्टा मिल गया बिना चेहरों वाले दोस्त बने कुछ के साथ कहासुनी भी होई कति सारा कुछ तो वोहे था जो म्हारा समाज था ! अल्बदी बालक भी आड़े थे अर समझदार और शांत बुजुर्ग भी लोग आते चले गए और इस मंच को छोड़ कर जाने वालो की गिनती भी कम नहीं थी ! मेरा आधा कॉलेज भी आड़े पा गया पहलाम जो टेम याहू पे ख़राब करा करता वो बंद हो गया ! समय के साथ कुछ चीजो से दो चार में भी हुआ आज लगभग चार साल हो गए उन बातो को और कुछ समझदार और शांत बुजुर्ग गायब से हो गए नए नए बालक आ गए जिनमे ज्यादातर गाँव के समाज को जानते भी नहीं !
मै जिस गाँव को यहाँ ढून्ढ रहा था उसका शेहरीकरण हो गया और नए विचारधारा वाले लोगो का बोलबाला हो गया ! मै बहुत छोटा था तब से एक बात जानी की मै जाट हूँ और मेरे अन्दर दुसरे लोगो से ज्यादा ताकत और हिम्मत है मेरी बोली में शेर की दहाड़ है और मुझमे मुस्किलो से झूझने की क्षमता आम लोगो से ज्यादा है ! कई बार देखा की सिर्फ बोलते ही रास्ता साफ़ हो जाता है जहाँ मजदूर किसी की नहीं सुनते थे वो सिर्फ बोली सुनते ही काम करने लग जाते हैं ! कुछ अच्छी जगहों पर बैठे इंसानों से बात करने का मौका मिला और कुछ देर के बाद उनका ये सवाल की क्या आप जाट हो छाती चौड़ी करने के लिए काफी है ! एक अनजान आदमी से खड़े खड़े रिश्ता बनने में कुछ ही पल लगे सिर्फ एक बात पर की में भी जाट हूँ ! मार्केटिंग की जो काल सुनते ही दीमाग ख़राब हो जाता है उनसे १० १० मिनट बात हो जाती हैं सिर्फ इस लिए की वो भी जाट है !
ये जाट कौन है? क्या ये मैंने बनाया या सिर्फ मै ही जाट हूँ ?ऐसा मैंने क्या किया जिसके कारण लोगो में एक अलग सी भावना आ जाती है (चाहे वो दर या दबाव की है चाहे वो इज्ज़त की या फिर एक अपनेपन की ) ?मै उस भावना का कारण समझ नहीं पा रहा हूँ पर ऐसा मै सोचता हूँ की वो भावना मेरे उन बुजुर्गो के कारण है जिनका सवभाव निश्चल और सीधा था जो सही को सही और गलत को गलत कहने में भगवान के आगे भी नहीं हिचकेंगे ! उनके नियम और उसूल जान से ज्यादा मायने नहीं रखते ! इज्ज़त के लिए जिन्होंने जान लेने और देने में कोई समय नहीं लगाया !आज उन बुजुर्गो को एक नया ही नाम मिल गया खंडवाधारी! मेरे पिताजी १९८० में जींस टी शर्ट पहनते थे जब यहाँ आने वालो में से ५०% भी पैदा नहीं हुए होंगे !और २००० में उन्होंने वो छोड़ कर खंडवा धारण कर लिया बिजली बोर्ड में बास्केटबाल टीम में खेलने वाले ने इस खंडवे में के देखा ? क्या ये खंडवाधारी किसी संस्था का हिस्सा हैं? क्या इनको सरकार से कोई पैसा मिलता है फैंसले सुनाने के लिए ? आज आड़े बात होवे हैं की उन लोगो के लिए ये लोग चंदा इक्कठा कर रहे हैं क्यों नहीं ये पैसा कोए एक आदमी दे देता ? इसका सिर्फ एक ही जवाब है की ये जापानी सिस्टम (वन पॉइंट lesson ) जैसा है १० रुपये में किसी का कुछ नहीं जायेगा पर एक बात जो सबको समझनी चाहिए वो बात हर कान तक पहुंचेगी ! पंचायत या खंडवा किसे की जागीर नहीं ना इसपे किसे पिस्से आले का जोर है की वो इसे जब चाहे अपने फायदे के लिए इस्तेमाल कर ले ! ये सिर्फ उन आदमियों का समूह है जो सिर्फ अपने समाज अपनी पहचान और अपने नियमो को जिंदा रखना चाहते हैं जो नहीं चाहते की विकसित देशो की तरह यहाँ भी वो सब होने लगे जो हमारे यहाँ परदे में होता है ! कुछ चीजे परदे में ही अच्छी रहती हैं और जब वो परदे से बाहर आयें तो सिवा इज्जत के कुछ नहीं जाता ! मैंने एक ये बात भी सीखी थी कि मेरे गाँव की(चाहे किसी भी जाती या गोत्र की हो )हर लड़की मेरी बहन है , मेरे गोत्र की हर लड़की मेरी बहन है मेरी माँ के गोत्र की हर लड़की मेरी बहन है और मेरी दादी के गोत्र कि हर लड़की मेरी बहन है वो हर लड़की जिसके दादी और माँ के भी गोत्र कहीं मिलते हैं वो लड़की मेरी बहन होगी ! मै आज यही सिक्षा अपनी संतान को देना चाहता हूँ जोकि आज एक साल का ही है पर आज जाटलैंड पर आये इस मानसिकता के बदलाव को देखते हुए डर सा लगने लगा की आज ये हाल है आज के बीस साल बाद क्या मेरे बच्चे की मानसिकता भी ऐसी ही होगी ? क्या वो कल किसी मेरे ही गोत्र वाली लड़की से शादी कर लेगा ? मै आज ये बात सोच कर डर रहा हूँ की मेरा(जाट का ) आने वाला समाज कैसा होगा ? क्या ये वही समाज होगा जिसे ढूँढता हुआ इस वेबसाइट पर आया था ?

vijay123
April 17th, 2010, 06:20 PM
What about you? Mujhe to lagta hai ki tum hi doodh ke jale huey ho, kahin najdiki mei to kisi ne aisa kaam nahi kar diya? Agar kuch points nahi hai kisi ke arguments ko disprove karne ke liye to bakwaas likhne ki kya jaroorat hai?


One more neo-liberal whinny mouth but ask him the reason beneath the lampooned article. I just do wonder that author has himself got married in the same village and questioning the bhai-chaara.

vijay123
April 17th, 2010, 06:24 PM
I dont understand why you are commenting sense less instead of making some points against what is written in article by DR Chaudhary. Unlike you he has taken some pain to research and then write an article. If you dont have something to counter his arguments then stay silent. Kisi par keechad uchalne se kuch nahi hoga ulta tere upar hi girega.


One more neo-liberal whinny mouth but ask him the reason beneath the lampooned article. I just do wonder that author has himself got married in the same village and questioning the bhai-chaara.

Samarkadian
April 18th, 2010, 12:26 PM
I dont understand why you are commenting sense less instead of making some points against what is written in article by DR Chaudhary. Unlike you he has taken some pain to research and then write an article. If you dont have something to counter his arguments then stay silent. Kisi par keechad uchalne se kuch nahi hoga ulta tere upar hi girega.

Good, I dnt mind Kichaad show unless it is from a biased mind. As far as his article is concerned, he has been lampoonising this issue since long. You may search it over net. Generally one need some reason to write against centuaries old practised and biologically applauded system and Mr Chaudhary has that reason. He belongs to Sirsa reason of Haryana. More precisely the village Chautala. I didnt say anything untrue. That side people get married in the same village and so does Mr Chaudhary. That part don't follow this Gotra Bhaichara with in a village. Why this tradition gives him pain if it is not practised in that part of state? Why he feels insecure about it? Why does he care so much when he has never been associated with it.? Same applies to Mr Chaudhary, has he researched the core issues/processes of Bhai-chara prevailing in other area.? Has he taken pain to understand the success of ''Bhai-chara'' in this region.? Has he any thesis in Social-Anthropology about the Bhai-chara of gotras? No issues if he doesn't have. I just find him insecure and may be jealous. Socially, he doesnt provide pragmatic solution except penning down what he dreams and you know dreaming is dreaming.

As far as the jala hua dudh on my part, my dear friend, let me assure that, had it been the scene with in my family I would have not thought for a second to repeat what you and your kind of minds finds immoral/amoral act of honour killing. I dislike the political correctness of ''We Do Not Support the Same Gotra Marriage but We Dislike Killing as Solution''. Absolutely at base level people don't seek solutions in such matters they just want to amputate the infected part. When you come to stark reality of villages and their belief in it , you would understand that not a single person[including 100%females] have sympathy for incest couples. Why does it pain so much to your and your kind overly liberal mind ; to atleast accept that crores of people believe in turning immoral/amoral to save their honour which get tainted 101% by such acts.

Further, if you dislike reading what I wrote for him and you, I hardly care what you think or don't think.

singhvp
April 18th, 2010, 10:49 PM
One more neo-liberal whinny mouth but ask him the reason beneath the lampooned article. I just do wonder that author has himself got married in the same village and questioning the bhai-chaara.

DR Chaudhary is one of the most progressive and reputed writers of Haryana and I do not find anything illogical or offensive which might warrant such uncouth remarks. If you do not agree with his arguments come with your counter-points in a decent manner. Majority of educated youths with progressive attitude (including on this portal) disapprove the autocratic, feudal, self-styled and outdated Khap leaders who simply use their respective clans as a means to pursue their political carriers and tend to brow-beat the clans which are in minority. Mr Chaudhary has rightly observed, these khaps try to emasculate the democratically elected Panchayats to perpetuate the feudal system where there is no place for individual freedom and civil liberties. You can not expect the reply of your choice form everyone.

vijay
April 19th, 2010, 05:45 PM
Good, I dnt mind Kichaad show unless it is from a biased mind. As far as his article is concerned, he has been lampoonising this issue since long. You may search it over net. Generally one need some reason to write against centuaries old practised and biologically applauded system and Mr Chaudhary has that reason. He belongs to Sirsa reason of Haryana. More precisely the village Chautala. I didnt say anything untrue. That side people get married in the same village and so does Mr Chaudhary. That part don't follow this Gotra Bhaichara with in a village. Why this tradition gives him pain if it is not practised in that part of state? Why he feels insecure about it? Why does he care so much when he has never been associated with it.? Same applies to Mr Chaudhary, has he researched the core issues/processes of Bhai-chara prevailing in other area.? Has he taken pain to understand the success of ''Bhai-chara'' in this region.? Has he any thesis in Social-Anthropology about the Bhai-chara of gotras? No issues if he doesn't have. I just find him insecure and may be jealous. Socially, he doesnt provide pragmatic solution except penning down what he dreams and you know dreaming is dreaming.




Is it his fault that he born in Sirsa and more precisely Chautala ? Is this your point of arguments ? What you want to talk about ? If he don't have any right to lamploosening ( according to you ) then what right do you have to claim some rubbish about the people of specific region.

Is it really necessory to follow just your style of Bhaichara to be a Jat or Jats do have their own traditions and value system ?

Let me tell you ceratin things before start blabbering some other rubbish things about the region. Jat people in this area avoid at least three gotra with all their will and happiness. Nobody marries in the same villege. Not only his own villege but people avoid their Mother's and Grandmother's villege. These traditions are practiced by Jat people without any fear of any Barberian bodies. because there are no such Barberian Bodies to impose stupid decisions. There are no INCEST relationships ( marriage ) unlike the REGION where people shout about bhaichara at their rooftop but so vulnerable to nasty relationships even after barberian hunting adventures.

Moreover, if some odd case of such type happens, the families of those subjects decide their punishment as par their mindset. There are no Khaps and no so called 'Khamkhas' people who just jumps into it to make a state level issue and to provide some spicy feed to media. There are no such people who tries to gather people from many states to have a bash at the victims. They don't call it a National Emergency. They don't raise this issue as a question mark for Jat existance. They don't try to get political mileage from the mishappenings of someone's family. They tries to help the parents to come out from their bad time. This is really disguting when two families are facing some problems and these so called WISE people gathers here and there and everywhere to get political mileage from it.

These Khaps are appreciating honor killing but the number of such cases are increasing inspite of all the killings. Is it not a ringing bell for you to decide some alternate solutions as killing is not helping to solve this problem.

If you are talking about traditions, then there is need for you to know and understand that traditons can never be imposed but traditions are those which are followed by the community by their own will and happiness.

I think you should clear up your mind before posting and give it a thought before posting. Because one day you start talking about community and next day you just say 'I don't care'. If you are talking just for yourself then feel free to post or do anything you want but if you are talking about Jat community then first of all come out from your attitude of 'I don't care'.

After all, community is all about 'How much I care' instead of 'I don't care'.

satyeshwar
April 20th, 2010, 02:57 AM
Guys, let me jump in and say that this is the editorial section. We don't want you to be making fancy fonts etc. Only serious discussions and limited use of smilies, colors etc. If you have something to say, you can say it without these extravagances. We will not be posting anyone's post who is in violation to this policy.

rsdalal
April 20th, 2010, 06:25 AM
Can you give few examples in this regard, Each Goaat has one khap, so there got be plenty of khap politicians, please name few. How many are MLAs and MPs ?


DR Chaudhary is one of the most progressive and reputed writers of Haryana and I do not find anything illogical or offensive which might warrant such uncouth remarks. If you do not agree with his arguments come with your counter-points in a decent manner. Majority of educated youths with progressive attitude (including on this portal) disapprove the autocratic, feudal, self-styled and outdated Khap leaders who simply use their respective clans as a means to pursue their political carriers and tend to brow-beat the clans which are in minority. Mr Chaudhary has rightly observed, these khaps try to emasculate the democratically elected Panchayats to perpetuate the feudal system where there is no place for individual freedom and civil liberties. You can not expect the reply of your choice form everyone.

singhvp
April 20th, 2010, 04:23 PM
Can you give few examples in this regard, Each Goaat has one khap, so there got be plenty of khap politicians, please name few. How many are MLAs and MPs ?
Those who can not make it to Assembly or Parliament, try to acquire some nuisance value for their personal aggrandizement. They could not become MP and MLA because that would have needed sufficient support from other communities as well which make sizeable chunk of electorate in any given constituency. Also they are usually not able to muster adequate support/votes from the "neo-liberals" (in Samar's parlance). Another important factor is that the more shrewd politicians in power, usually foil the designs of Clan leaders to become MLA/MP riding on the crest of their popularity, whatsoever among Khaps, by gerrymandering the constituencies where these clan leaders have pocket boroughs/vote bank. But by remaining associated with certain pressure groups/clans(khaps) of the society they are able to demonstrate their political clout and acquire some political significance in the eyes of the local leaders viz. MP/MLA/Ministers. By virtue of their influence in some particular clan they acquire a good bargaining power and can achieve some of their personal goals, to cite an example - employment for the relatives etc. It is, however, neither advisable nor necessary for me to single out any particular community leader to substantiate my point. Several other young and bright members have written a lot about this. In your spare time you may devote some of your energies to go through all those posts. I remember, someone has submitted a thesis also on this subject as quoted by a Jat journalist while writing about the honour killings recently ( mentioned by Shri Samar Singh Kadiyan in one of his post). That was worth reading.

sidarth
April 21st, 2010, 09:22 AM
I read u but think about those circumstances when a brother /father become ready to kill their own sister/daughter.
in Manoj- Babli case u ll find the Babli s family was very supportive to their Daughter like for education and allowing her to play Kabaddi interstate, which indicate they were planning and caring about their beloved sister, but the mechanic/electrician of her own village/same gotra chase her every place who was not equally good looking and convince her for such kind of marriage, i consider u did not spend u r childhood in village when every child learn of village learn about social practice.
I do not appreciate honor killing in any form but to teach the society to hang till death is very harsh decision of honorable court beacuse the stigma attached to the family does not go for after 3 generation also, they r victim of our social system(parents of girl/women) who take such kind of step.
In my opinion it is the time to save their life and educate the daughters of Jat samaj dont surrender yourself to emotional flow of low profile guy atleast to whom your own parents(not khap panchayat) will not accept at any cost, educate them at a level where they can get a good job/ self dependent, what s the dream of Babli s parents also.
I genuinly appreciate your anger against khap panchayats but dont ingnore these facts also.

singhvp
April 21st, 2010, 05:20 PM
Sidarth & other friends.



In fact the basic issue of honour killing has strayed too far and the secondary issue of marriage within the clan (gotra) seems to be taking recurrence in spite of the fact that not a single member has supported/demanded sanctity of such marriages. But, of course, majority of the participants in this discussion have clearly condemned murder in the name of honour. Alternative punishment viz. expulsion from village/ State etc. was also suggested by some and the participants were very much entitled to have their views on a subject which has been thrown for discussion on a public forum. The frustration shown by those favouring murder is quite absurd, uncalled for and unjustified. Therefore, it is pointless to rake up the issue of intra-clan marriage which should have been a dead subject by now. To be more precise, marriage within same clan supplants, dilutes and marginalises the prevailing instrument of custom and amounts to breach of universally acceptable societal convention which still needs to be preserved in my opinion given the level of our social evolution. But, I do not think this kind of marriage will take place very often and can easily be avoided by proper educating your kids. Though it was absolutely a breach of a healthy custom by Manoj & Babli, it was just a rarest of rare aberration/exception and should have been downplayed to avoid media hype and wide publicity which, perhaps, provoked the aggrieved family members to take the extreme step of killing the boy and the girl. Murder has definitely not earned any honour to the community; it has rather tarnished the image of the community. The situation got highlighted and aggravated more by frequent and huge congregations by the community leaders/Khaps.

The current situation in the Jat society is characterized by a widening distrust between the educated, moderate and progressive young Jats, especially settled in cities or staying abroad, and those poor and innocent farmers residing in villages, buckling under pressure from their respective clan leaders for adherence to some outmoded customs. For want of internet and other media, these hapless farmers do not have access to the information on latest trends and fast changing social dynamics which are essential ingredients for progress of any community. They are victims of false propaganda unleashed by the self-seeking clan (Khap) leaders against the modern youth with progressive outlook branding them as bunch of characterless people who know nothing about the traditions and Jat culture. According to them the people who reside in cities or abroad indulge in all sort of murky behaviour. It smacks of their innocence due to lack of education which should take the topmost priority instead of these trivial issues of marriage/divorce etc. These issues should be left to the individuals. It is high time the Khaps must concentrate their energies on developmental issues like education, roads, internet, electricity, hospitals etc.

Individually, I have nothing against the Khap leaders as they are not outsiders. They are after all our own Elder Brothers/Uncles/Taus or Grand-Fathers. I have all respect for them as individuals but do not endorse their approach in certain matters like inciting honour killings and it is my democratic right to differ with them on any subject. I do not want to be a blind follower of our ancestors. It becomes out duty to educate them and give them proper briefing through this portal. I do not see anything wrong in it. I do not believe in the formality and the rhetoric of saying yes to elders in every respect. If they are willing to modify their agenda by including the above-mentioned developmental issues, and start a movement, I will definitely join them.

sunillathwal
April 21st, 2010, 08:20 PM
Essence of Mr. Choudhary's article:

1. Honor Killings are prevailing in areas with tribal hangover (Haryana, some part of UP, Pakistan and Yemen).

2. Honor Killings are (solely) a product of institution called Khaps.

3. Khaps leads to grotesque and barbarous manifestation of gender discrimination. And Skewed sex-ratio might be a by-product of Khaps.

4. Khaps have no relevance today. (Though some UP Khaps are different as they are doing some good 'work'.)

5. It is unimaginable that Khaps in Haryana can do any good work.

6. Khaps are rigid (though later he contradict himself, giving examples of Khap's progressiveness).

===========================

Nice international touch, i must say, in comparing the khaps with some of the worst Muslim countries! His 'agenda' behind this comparison becomes quite clear when he introduced the 'barbarous gender discrimination '. After all these muslim countries are famous for treating women as commodity (no education to girl, can't go outside without male from his family).

I really wonder, when did all this started in Haryana? Last time (in Dec 2009) I checked in/around my village (not a Las-Vegas, i should declare), Girls were not being treated any worse than boys. At least 20 girls are doing Masters degree from my village, and even more Bachelor's. I see no Lathwal-Khap declaring any Fatwa against any of these girls.
Skewed sex-ratio has of course many other reasons!!

Girl and Dishonor: Not true, a boy marrying in his gotra bring equal dishonor. Author seems to be myopic (of course prejudiced); even in the recent much-publicized case it was the couple (which means, BOY along with girl) who got killed.

But who cares... bring the allegation of gender discriminations along with neo-liberal thoughts (which resonances with people, who read these articles; who, BTW, do NOT have any idea about the actual situation/local traditions or rationale behind them) and you are a HIT.

Not surprisingly he beats the Jat & Khaps with a recently invented stick--- Khap are Indian Taliban-- latest fashion in media (and among some intellectuals from our dear JL).

---------------------------------------

Author seems to have a lot of knowledge about the honor killings in other countries too. Surprisingly he did NOT mention our own Indian states. I have repeated this many times at Jatland itself that Southern states are no better when it comes to honor killings . In my last five years in Bangalore, i have met many people from these states.. all kinds.. from the villages, town and cities and had good discussion with them. Every region have some traditions and people abide by them. e.g., one of my lab mates (from AP) told that they too don't marry in their own village. My persistent question what if someone does.. he yielded: Village as a whole will boycott them and it will be stigma to them forever, hence nobody does that. Further probing yielded: yes, there have been mysterious 'deaths' supposedly due to dishonor!!

I don't understand, how author (and some people here at Jatland) absolve themselves, parents and society of Honor killings and put the whole blame on Khap as if there won't be any honor killings if Khaps cease to exist.

Will you, me, your relatives or your friends or your local society become liberals (media sense) instantly if some magic button aborts Khaps??

More on honor Killings: Sometime back there was news about 'honor killing' somewhere in Uk or Canada where NRI couple killed their daughter as she married to some firanga.

Was it Khap's influence?? Was it the fear that they (NRI) might be oust of their 'village'??

-------------------
Author further elaborate (his sick fantasy) that sex is quite common nowadays in village; courtesy modern ways of communication. And hence intra-village and/or intra-gotra marriage should not be frowned upon. (and apparently 'Not frowning upon' means banning Khaps; though it's yet to see how govt or pseudo-intellects propose to BAN Khaps in practice).

Quite surprising: if it is in the same village how modern communication gadget has increased the chances of sexual encounters. At least i never saw that girls were being accompanied by their brother/fathers/uncles everywhere. 10 years back they enjoyed the same liberty as they do now (at least in terms of moving in villages).

Needless to say there are/(have been) some wayward kids who are blinded by the lust; take infatuation for pious love and make the life hell for their family.
What kind of love is this?? When they know the social norms, they know the traditions.. they know the consequences of their actions.. What it does to their family.. what it make the life of their siblings and cousins. Still they go ahead with their lust. I, personally, do NOT see it any better than incestuous. Time, sex between siblings was forbidden, reason was not Genetics (no one knew genetic codes that time), it was so for social reasons.

I can understand some 'Banagli' reporter who does not have any idea about our 'traditions' or someone who can not differentiate between the surname, gotra and/or lineage. I really don't care if my disapproval of incestuous relationship makes me 'uncivilized' or 'talibani' in the eyes of some high-society bawd. But it is painful is to see some esteemed members at Jatland 'glorifying' such couples, branding them as the 'winds of +ve change' in our society. What is going to be the next +ve +ve change?? marrying in same family as muslims do it ? marriage between siblings as some non- Homo sapiens do it?? to what end??
I mean, do we really need to import some alien culture instantly?? Are we not changing with time? Do we really need to throw all our traditions because it is a globalized word? Do some stupid actions of 0.00001% of people dictate our collective reasoning?

I don't see khaps any better or worse than myself or persons i know. May be I am in a bad company.
Yes, khaps are not perfect… neither am I. Anyway, perfection had always been imaginary!!

rocker88
April 21st, 2010, 08:39 PM
I read u but think about those circumstances when a brother /father become ready to kill their own sister/daughter.
in Manoj- Babli case u ll find the Babli s family was very supportive to their Daughter like for education and allowing her to play Kabaddi interstate, which indicate they were planning and caring about their beloved sister, but the mechanic/electrician of her own village/same gotra chase her every place who was not equally good looking and convince her for such kind of marriage, i consider u did not spend u r childhood in village when every child learn of village learn about social practice.
I do not appreciate honor killing in any form but to teach the society to hang till death is very harsh decision of honorable court beacuse the stigma attached to the family does not go for after 3 generation also, they r victim of our social system(parents of girl/women) who take such kind of step.
In my opinion it is the time to save their life and educate the daughters of Jat samaj dont surrender yourself to emotional flow of low profile guy atleast to whom your own parents(not khap panchayat) will not accept at any cost, educate them at a level where they can get a good job/ self dependent, what s the dream of Babli s parents also.
I genuinly appreciate your anger against khap panchayats but dont ingnore these facts also.
I agree to you on above post.we should teach our daughters & let them become aware of JAT samaj & their rituals/traditions etc.in this way in their turn after marrying she will educate her children of JAT samaj, a chain reaction will set & we will able to preserve our JAT culture.
But one more question WHAT ABOUT JAT BOYS who are after every biharan/bengalan? shouldn't JAT BOYS be equally responsible for preserving/carrying the JAT samaj.
Today's JAT BOY Tomorrow's KHAP MEN.
So final points is EDUCATE & TEACH you children about JAT culture also in addition to formal education.

VivekGathwala
April 21st, 2010, 10:19 PM
गोत्तर विवाद पर सभी की अपनी अपनी राय हैं नजरिया हैं | सब एक बात पर तो सहमत हैं की खुद और माँ के गोत्तर में ब्याह गलत हैं | चौधरी साहब जैसे लोग खाप की मुखालफत करते हैं खुद के गाँव खेड़े में ब्याह को जायज ठहराते हैं | खाप प्रणाली सिर्फ देशवाली जाटों में हैं पंजाबी जाटों में इसका रूप जत्थों ने ले लिया | बागड़ी जाटों की खाप प्रणाली रजवाड़े आने से खत्म हो गई | यही कारण हैं की खाप प्रणाली खत्म होने से बागड़ी जाट शारीरिक व मानसिक रूप से रजवाड़ो के अधीन हो कर रह गए उनकी सोच गुलाम हो कर रह गई अगर ये बागड़ी जाट अपनी खाप प्रणाली मजबूत रखते तो इनका राज ख़त्म नहीं होता | राजस्थान में जाटों की आबादी राजपूतों से कम नहीं हैं | आज अगर जाट का नाम आता हैं तो लोगो के जेहन में यही आता हैं के हरयाणा या पश्चिमी उत्तर प्रदेश का होगा ना के राजस्थान का , राजस्थान का तो नाम आते ही रजवाड़ो की बू आती हैं | इसका कारण सिर्फ यहाँ की खाप प्रणाली हैं जो आज तक मजबूत हैं | चौधरी साहब कोई पहले या नए व्यक्ति नहीं हैं जो खाप के खिलाफ लिखते या बोलते हैं |
कइयो का कहना हैं के खाप खामखा के मुद्दे उठाती हैं , गाँव में गलियों शिक्षा बिजली आदि का ख्याल नहीं करती | इस सब के लिए सरकार ने एक पंचायती राज बना रखा हैं जो अपना काम करता हैं , जिसका सदस्य किसी भी जाति वर्ग से हो सकता हैं | खाप का काम अपने समाज के संस्कार संस्कृति के मान सम्मान को बचाना होता हैं |
दो चार दिन पहले NDTV पर एक प्रोग्राम में पचौरी साहब ने कहा के लोग 21vi सदी में जा लिए ये खाप वाले पता नहीं कहा जी रहे हैं , इनको तकनिकी विकास भी चाहिए और ऊपर से ये गोत्तर विवाह भी | कोई उससे पूछे की तकनिकी विकास चाहने के लिए क्या अब भाई को बहन से शादी करनी पड़ेगी ? यह लोग कैसे हमे मुर्ख बना रहे हैं कैसे हमे तोड़ रहे हैं यदि हम इनकी बातो में आ गए तो हमारी सोच इनकी गुलाम हो जाएगी हम खत्म हो जायेंगे |
इतिहास उठकर देखे तो सबसे ज्यादा संत सूरमे जाट कौम में जन्मे हैं जिसका कारण हमारा यह गोत्तर प्रणाली ही हैं | अगर या टूंट गई तो जाटों में भी हिजड़ो की फ़ौज हो जाएगी |
जैसा की खाप पंचायत ने अपने मसौदे में गोत्तर के साथ साथ गाँव खेड़े पडोसी गाँव छोड़ने की बात कही |
रही बात honour killing की तो कोई खाप कभी किसी को नहीं मरवाती न ही मारने का आदेश देती | हर खाप पंचायत में ऐसी शादी करने वालो को सिर्फ गाँव छोड़ने का हुकुम सुनाती हैं | यदि हमारे कानून में संसोधन हो जाता हैं तो ऐसी शादियों पर काफी हद तक नकेल कस जाएगी अगर कोई करेगा भी तो गाँव में नहीं आएगा जिससे इन् "honour killing " में भी कमी आएगी |

phoolkumar
April 25th, 2010, 10:19 PM
Hi friends,

Today I am writing from two perspectives, on one hand will try to explain what I do whenever get the chance to go my native place for society under the influence of second perspective, which also is the today’s title of my discussion. So the title is:

JAATDA (JAT) AUR KAATDA (INFANT OF BUFFALO) APNE KO HEE MAAREN

Well getting motivated by the comment from Nitin (very first reply to my last writing in this chain) I thought it better to share about how I try to serve the society.

Though I am studying abroad so not often get the chance to visit India but on an average once a year. Since the day I started earning, I give a fixed percentage of my earning in social services like helping the really financially poor and helpless needy people from so called all 36 casts. My father is not only my motivation behind such deeds but always support and guide me in such tasks. In fact I always leave it up to him to decide on where and how to invest that money because by this we both feel honor and proud in our father-son relation. Telling percentage and figures used in such tasks would be of no use here and moreover would rather be seen as boasting and diluting the real sense of serving the society. But such help includes helping poor people by distributing day to day needy stuff, instruments need to generate self-employment, medical helps etc. Baat tabiyat se ek pathar uchhaalne waali hai jitni tabiyat se uchhaloge aasmaan mein chhed utna hee bada hoga.

Nitin, I am sure you must have been doing such works because a person who cares about the society so much as you, must be helping the society practically too. From your post I didn’t see any example which you practice yourself and could be of the kind of sharing with the like thinking people from this platform.

Coming to main topic of today, from my last articles in this chain I simply have tried to make it feasible on how the involvement of Khap Panchayats can serve the society positively and bring them closer to hearts willingly not forcefully. And it can only be done with the equal support and involvement of old and new blood again (Khaps, you, me and us – traditional and modern).

NOTE: Before proceeding ahead I thought it better to remind that I neither advocate nor criticize the Khaps but advocate to keep them alive, meaningful and as proudly and fresh as any recent new trend or custom for new generations and it can be done only through discussions and sharing ideas with a feeling of respect and honor to each other by sensitive talkings.

Be remembered that to get the best quality of curd and butter (Makhkhan) from today’s bucket-full milk, our mothers and grand-mothers (on grand scale to say otherwise our sister-in-laws, wives of married among us and sisters or in some case gents too) always use the few milliliters of last day old curd or lassi. See here the ratio of the quantity of today’s milk to few drops taken of last day lassi or curd. So I am interested in those few powerful milliliters of curd or lassi which even being the older have the enough power to converge liters or bucket-full of milk in to new fresh curd, butter and lassi, which if was not there nobody knew or sure about the quality of going to be new curd from today’s fresh milk.

I already have said in my very last articles of this chain that there are some drawbacks grown up with time in Khaps and they need to be revised and if necessary should be eliminated. And for tomorrow, we have to eliminate the bad, keep the good not only the current good but the new and modern but good traits too.

The definition of Khaps: People from same Khaps lets say “Ghathwala” Khap is originating from “honorable shrine of Dada Ghasi Ram Ji” so if all Maliks within Jat Malik surname are said brothers and sisters, it is because our sub-clans or family branches ends at this one name and so for the other Khaps except any exception unknown to me.

I am a kind of thinking tank that believes that our all Khaps, should establish a governing body like SGPC (Siromani Gurdwara Parbhandhak Committee) so that there should be one body governing all Khaps and formed by Khaps and obeyed by Khaps. We Jats have to organize ourselves under such a flagship. SGPC ke decisions ke against bolne se pahle Media bhi 10 baar sochta hai. So if our Jat brothers from Sikh community can do that why cant we Hindu Jats form such a serious committee whose decisions are not only accepted un-questioned but without any kind of disagreement. There is hardly a disagreement found in SGPC decisions because SGPC forms on the principles of revising and keep analyzing themselves. By this Media will give us more respect and if to launch then will launch maximum positive about us. The other most important advantage of this would be to limit Media to their limits and make thinking them before commenting useless about Jats. I see this as a solution to some concerns shown by some of us in various articles on Jat Land form itself. I am sorry for my knowledge on SGPC system if someone finds any contradiction on what I wrote here about SGPC but my ultimate goal to say is that we and our Khaps should unite under such one single shrine kind of flagship.

In my last articles, I requested to bring some examples from other communities on viability of same Gotra-marriage system and have really seen some good examples introduced in this chain like one by Dear Jitender Singh. Dear Jitnedera taking your example of Arjuna and Subhadhra here. Yeah ok they were cousins but from different gotras at least. Their gotras were different and even were from different villages or you can say different dynasties, but today the major issue is of marrying in the same gotra, one’s own surname and same village in some cases. I don’t know if Arjuna-Subhadra were Jats but as their marriage was according to the law of out of same gotra-marriage rule so no issue in that. Can we have some examples from Hindu history where girl and boy were from same surname?

Jats are launched or blamed as if we are against love marriages. I think we should communicate to other communities that we Jats are not against love marriages because where-ever love marriages in Jat community are made following the out of same gotra marriage rule, they are accepted and most of those couples are living a happy life, at least they dont face same-gotra marriage issues. I hardly find if anyone representer of/from our community (neither in TV shows like NDTV casted on Gotra and Khaps so called issues or through any kind of Khap Panchayats or other relevant body) saying that love marriages are not a crime in Jats if are made respecting minimum customs like out of same gotra-marriage rule.

Someone may not like this rule-oriented mentality but if a Hindu is said Hindu and a Christian is said Christian then are they without any rule? In fact I will not say them as rule but as an identity of being a Hindu or a Muslim and same here for being a Jat. What our Khaps are demanding only to save this respected and most shouted customs of our community.So “Bhaai love karo but atleast thodi si to social responsibility and custom ko follow karke karo." This message should be communicated to our own and local young generation before that they start feeling as if they are totally blocked or banned from loving someone by their own elders and start considering their elders as their first enemy. So if Jats are rigid on out of same gotra marriage rule, it doesn’t mean that Jats are against Love marriages.

Continued……read the second part in chain to complete article till end…)))

phoolkumar
April 25th, 2010, 10:20 PM
JAATDA (JAT) AUR KAATDA (INFANT OF BUFFALO) APNE KO HEE MAAREN (Part 2)...continued...)))

This is a side point to this topic if someone could clear my doubt. I myself still not sure if Arjuna was a Jat. We also claim for Lord Krishna that he was a Jat but he is equally claimed by Yadavas too, infect his surname is Yadav. I think Yadav surname is in Jats also then in that we Yadavs may also be Jat in one way. Thanks for clearing me on this with sound proofs, Proofs not with just simple writings but accepted by other might be question raising societies on this. One example of claiming Lord Krishna as a Jat, I have read from Wikipedia’s Jat People but is it equally accepted by Yadavas too who say that they are not Jats but Ahirs? So were Arjuna and Lord Krishna really Jats?

I am living in France. People are so proud of their own customs, language and traditions that they don’t like to talk with you if you don’t speak in French on local and social places especially. You are considered as third/fourth or no party here if you speak in English. They also understand the importance of English too but never judge it over their own language/customs. I was working in GE Healthcare for last 2 years which is an English speaking US MNC/conglomerate and English is compulsory to get job in French subsidiaries of this company but French’s are so rigid or I would say proud of being themselves that even after being employee of US company, they prefer to talk in French and even organize the meetings and calls in French unless or until they are talking outside France like to any IT team from India or US counterparts.

What is called as modernization, the top-notch things like fashion na? Is there any country other than France or any city other than Paris in the world who is boasted of and known for fashion? It is a common saying that “World wears what Paris wears”. So if one side they are rigid to their traditions/customs on the other side they are this much modern to be known for fashion and many other things like French Nuclear Advancement, Aerospace, Airline agencies, Infrasturcture, world fastest trains and their life style (it is not advocating French here but presenting an example). There would hardly be a young from India who doesn’t know or watch the famous mid-night Fashion show live from Paris. Well actually we have to exercise on our habits of not only following Paris or London fashions but guarding our customs and tradition with the same passion, respect and love as Paris and London do.

It’s we only the Jats who are luckiest in this world, who can claim and boast of dual social systems, one for Vansawali (Khaps) and the second for RajaVanses like of Maharaja Surjamal Ji and 1857 Martyr great son of soil Raja Nahar Singh Tewatiya. Raja’s and their dynasties are either limited or abolished by governments (whether they were Jats, Rajputs or other casts). So if only is left that is like our Khap system and is really a matter of proud for us, which shows that we are driven under self-control but not lead by others so we should guard this system. We should advocate it proactively but not as a reaction in reactive or active way. Afterall society is made of all so called 36 casts but not just by Jats. So peace and harmony of others should also be taken care, which in fact we do, it is mentioned here just as a point to be practiced.

If we have really to abolish or eliminate something from our community then it is this idiom "Jaatda (JAT) AUR Kaatda (INFANT OF BUFFALO) Apne Ko Hee Maaren". So let’s keep these khaps alive by continous and time to time reforming and restructuring them. What to re-think or reform, for example: One point emerging contradictory from Manoj-Babli case is that one side Khaps claim for never ordering to kill someone and on the other hand if they are so affirm with their never ordering to kill someone point then why to collect financial help to support the court’s decision victims. This point for me is just weakening their most important point of advocating for change in the Hindu marriage act. They are brining themselves on the ground of doubt. Perhaps the representatives of Khaps themselves were not aware of both side could be output of this decision and took this financial support decision in emotions.

Roling Hukkas and playing cards and doing nothing, I don’t agree fully, first most of them do this in free time, second if we want to use their talent in reforms then we people from this Jatland (because I consider all of us who are on this platform at least this much updated and aware) have to tell or suggest them to use their time in creative and innovative activities with practical examples. It is just not blaming older, the main problem of our society is that transformation in our society is one way from older to younger or younger to older but hardly case where both agrees or tried to make agree. It is normal that sometimes if someone of us try to make them understand on changes happening in today’s world, we get push-backs and negative responses. It is because either our own way of saying or presenting our views were not in the way they accept or we miss to add real convincing facts in our efforts. In most of the case we lost the patience in few minutes on if few back-ups given to our suggestions by elders or illiterates. So we younger have to become more persistent to change them according to us and get change ourselves according to them. Wo kahte hain na ki "Kuchh tum badlo kuchh hum badlenge to sara jaha hi badal jayega, aage badh jayega." So communication and discussion should be dual but not just one way. We jats are emotional in most of the cases and if sometime we courage to put any point in society we are so passimistic or passionate that in case of a negative push back instead of analysing the could be weak points from our own side, we start blaming them (the push-backers) as superstidious.

Dear Vivek, your point has a point. Yes it is true that we Jats not only provide best opportunities of education, sports and listening to our family girls like you explained in case of Babli but yes you are right, we have to make our girls aware of the cheap guys tactics and their mean purposes of burgling with their emotions on the name of fake love.

Dear Satyeswar thanks for your point of talking seriously instead of commenting inter-personal or childish.

I appreciate all the relevant and positive points brought under this discussion making the discussion further healthy and meaningful. I hope this new edition, a further addition to this chain will help in bringing maturity to discussion and will make it relevant and reference to interested

dhayal120
May 29th, 2010, 03:08 PM
Her Excellency, Smt. Pratibha Patil,
The President of India,
Rashter Pati Bhawan New Delhi
Subject: Controversy regarding Gotra System as followed among
Jat Community in India.
Hon’ble Madam,
I have the honour to write to you as under on the subject cited above and to request you for your kind perusal of the same with a view to help stop the vicious compaign in both electronic and print media in a planned and orchestrated manner against Jat Community and their customs that have been governing and regulating their behaviour and whole gamut of their social set up. I would like to draw your kind attention pointwise as detailed below:
1. Gotra System: It is a fact of history and common knowledge that Gotra system and the traditions of lineage have remained sanctified inter and intra community in the Indian Cultural ethos since vedic period of our history, established by our Rishis with a view to streamline and facilitate the working of the Indian society on a correct authopological, sociological and biologically scientific basis. This system has really stood all tests of the times and has kept our society free from all kinds of conflicts and feuds. It is logical, therefore, that every Northern Indian is proud of this Gotra System.
2. Gotra System is scientific based: Except for South India and some parts of North-East, the Gotra system is prevalent among all communities across the length and breadth of India. The system practised as such debars in every rural community the matrimonial relationship among same Gotra. This age-old and fool proof prescription is based on scientific principles that better and healthier progency can be ensured by making matrimonial alliances among people genetically diverse. Among the communities in which Intra-Gotra marriages take place, it has been noticed that procreative potency has decline to the extent that freaks are born out of such alliances. A solid example, in this regard, is that of the Parsi community in India in which the violation of the above genetic principle has shown adverse results. Their total population in India according to the 1991 census was 72634 which got reduced to 69241 in 2001 census. One more example in this case is that of a particular religion which

constitute hardly 20% of India’s total population, whereas almost 70% are eunnuchs from this religion in India due to not following the Gotra system. Moreover the African Lions living in one herd have suffered drastic decline of their population as well as are suffering from various diseases. Secondly in the absence of Gotra system more disabilities are also growing. So the Gotra system as practised in India, particularly in Jat community is completely a scientific one and debarring of 2-3 gotras for marriage purposes in the community is not difficult because 4800 gotra are at hand with the Jats. Thus, Gotra system is culturally sacred and scientifically a correct and healthy practice.
3. Gotra system and the Hindu marriage Act 1955: Throughout India people of different religious and castes follow different religious and social customs. But the Hindu Marriage Act of 1955 does not recognize such diversity of customs. It recognizes only 3 blood relations based on customary practices of South India. These are given in section 3 of the Act (i) Avoid total blood relation (ii) Avoid blood relation (iii) Avoid utereine blood relation. But this act does not recognize customary practices of North India and particularly of Jat community. In South India, particularly Brahamins have a custom to marry their sister’s children, father’s sister’s children and maternal uncle’s children. Whereas in North Indian, particularly in Jat community, these relations are treated equal to real brothers and sisters. It is clear that this Act was drafted by South Indian officers and detailed debate was not held on this Act in the parliament with the result that this Act is an incomplete Act. Before inceptioin of this Act, Gotra system was valid as per the existing laws.
4. System of Khaps (¹æÂ) among Jats: Clusters of one Gotra villages or a group of different gotras of villages form a Khap. The literal meaning of the word Khap is kshatrap (ÿæ˜æÂ) which indicates a particular region of a khap which is based on ancient Indian tradition of demoractic republics. Thousand years back Rishi Panini has observed in his book. "Ashtadhayayi" (¥CUæŠææØè) ÁÅU ÛæÅU â´ƒææÌð - which means Jats organize themselves into federal republics without loss of time. The same system developed into Khap later on, which led to the birth of modern democracy. it was Jat king Harsha Vardhan Bains who consolidated these systems into Sarva Khap in the year 643 AD with its Headquarter at village Saurabha, Distt. Muzaffer Nagar (U.P.) where its complete old records are available. Scholars like Dr. M.C. Pardhan, Dr. Mon Fort, Dr. G.C. Dwivcdi, Dr. Bala Krishan Dabas among others, have conducted intensive research on the basis of this historical record and have produced several scholarly theses. Worthmentioning among these is Dr. M.C. Pradhan’s thesis “Political

dhayal120
May 29th, 2010, 03:09 PM
system of the Northern Indian Jats”. There are many other books on the basis of these records such as “âßü¹æ ´¿æØÌ ·¤æ ÚUæCþUèØ ÂÚUæ·ý¤×”.
5. Adverse effect on the Jat Community due to Hindu Marriage Act 1955: It is well known that gotra system is the backbone of Jat community which form their social well being and it is only gotra system that weaves the whole fabric of their value system, the Samskaras (â´S·¤æÚU). As a result, the community has to avoid at least two gotras when matrimonial alliances take place. No Khap of a particular gortra can allow among itself as bride a girl belonging to a gotra within the Khap. Jat community recognize this to be very sacred and sanctified custom. Any attempt to violate these, customs, is opposed with all the strength of character. This social opposition bring the violaters (boys and girls of the same gotra) under tremendous psychological and social pressure so that in many cases they resort to the drastic step of committing suicide. As per the Jats’s traditions and culture these boys and girls are brothers and sisters who were blinded by the carnal passion for one another. But the media is projecting them as loving couples sordidly and thus encourages more and more boys and girls to fall in the same line of uncalled for. Moreover, the media has launched a well orchestrated compaign of branding the entire Jat community as Talibani. Whatever the media is doing in this context is only to malign the community, as there has never been any order issued or so called Fatwa by any Jat Khap within India. Therefore, I am enclosing an affidavit on behalf of Jat community in this connection. Kindly note that any self styled Pradhan can not be called Khap.
The right to take action on such social crimes rests with Khaps to discard such persons from the community, in the same manner as its rests with the Sikh Panth against those working against Sikhism. For example, in 1986 Sardar Surjit Singh Barnala while being the Chief Minister of Punjab, was declared a TANKHAIYA and was punished with cleaning shoes and utensils in a Gurudwara.
6. Is Jat a Hindu? The Hindu marriage Act 1955 has failed to accomodate the social traditions of Jat community with the result, the Jats have grudge against it. Otherwise about 80 Crore other Hindus have no complaint against this law. It means this Hindu Act suits other Hindus and was made for them only. The question therefore is, what is the religion of the Jats? The Hindu Granth Sakand Puran holds that the widow marriage was prevalent only among Sudras but Jas have been holding widow marriages as a solemon religious act since centuries. So according to such Hindu Granth the Jats are Sudra. But at the same time

National Second Backward Class Commission (Mandal Commission) says that all the castes in Sudhra Varna have been given reservation. But the Jats were not included in the reservation by this Commission. This means that Jats are not in Sudhra Varna conflicting with the above quoted observations. During 1934, Lahore High Court declared Jats as Sudra. On the other hand Britishers have declared Jats as a Martial Race. Swami Daya Nand not only said that Jats are a martial community but took a step further callig them as God. There are many conflicting views in different Hindu Granths such as Padam Puran, Bhavisha Puran and Chachnama etc. So under these conflicting views it is incumbent upon powers to determine where really the Jats belong.
7. Discriminations and injustice against Jats: From the above submissions, it is clear that partiality and discrimination has been practised against Jats both in Hindu literature and the media. The Govt. of India, right since 1947 has also been following the above line and no efforts were ever made to meet the aspirations of this community. This has all resulted into the rise of the feeling among Jat community that the Hindu Marriage Act 1955 does not belong to them as it fails to cover and incorporate their legitimate customary laws. It is an irony that the Act, instead of preserving the customary laws, leaves them outside its ambit only to be disregarded and ultimately broken by those bent upon pervailing social crimes. Customary laws are handed over from generation to generation in an oral manner much in the same way as the English Constitution which is still unwritten, and therefore, like the English Constitution they should also be made to hold ground and put in practice in India.
UN Declaration of 18th December 1992-Quote: In order to strengthen the cause of the minorities, the United Nations promulgated the “Declaration on the Rights of Persons belonging to National or Ethnic, Religious and Linguistic Minorities” on 18th Decembe 1922 proclaiming that: “States shall protect the existence of the National or Ethnic, Culture, Religious and Linguistic identity of minorities within their respective territories and encourage conditions for the promotion of that identity.”
Minority Commission has recognised Muslims, Christians, Sikhs, Buddhists, Jains and Prasees ............. than why not the Jats?
8. The Role of Jats: It is a well-known fact that Jats have been making much more contributions than any other community in every field of life, be it sports, agriculture or during war. Moreover, they have played a great role in the preservation of India’s democratic system, Panchayati Raj System and Cultural heritage. The Jat community has always opposed

to any kind of dogmatism and conservatism. Hence, it is requested that this patriotic community may not be pushed to the margin and left to nurse a grouse which may take an ugly turn. Jats inhabit very large tracts of the country, spanning from Barmer to Bijnaur, from Kathuwa to Gwalior. Moreover, this is the only tract which is free from any kind of disturbances witnessed elsewhere in India. So, justice needs to be done to this community whose sole responsibility lies with the Govt. of India. 21st Century and progressive country does not mean that we should forget our culture or change our relations like calling brothers and sisters as loving couples. To keep this country united, it is necessary to give due respect to every regional culture. For example in South India ‘DHOTI’ is being put without an under knot (Langger) whereas in the Jat culture, those wearing Dhoti without an under knot (Langger) are called uncivilised or Lafangas.
9. Prayer: It is humbly prayed to do the needful for the community. It may be submitted that in no case would the Jat community tolerate marriages within the same Gotra. It is, therefore, prayed that necessary amendment in the Hindu Marriage Act 1955 may be brought about to preserve the Gotra/Khap system among Jats, as under:-
The following paras may be included into section 3 after sub-clause-IV in the said Act.
V) Jat Community has right to avoid at least two gotras (Self & Mother) for marrige alliances and it would be mandatory.
VI) Jat Community has right to uphold tradiations of Khap wherever prevailing this system in Jat Living region.
Thanking you in anticipation.
Yours faithfully,
Dated: 25-10-2009 Hawa Singh Sangwan (Ex. Comdt. C.R.P.F)Mob.- 09416056145
Encl: An Affidavit President - Akhil Bharitia Jat Aarakshan

Copy To:-
National Women Commision
Dated:-28-03-2010

satenderrose
June 25th, 2010, 12:39 AM
Hi all,

I am new in Jatland and recently join the community. Saying now on Same gotra marriage and Role of khap panchayat in Jat community.

Now a days, we are waching on TV channals about "Honour Killing" in north india or in Capital of India and NCR. I agree with love marriage, inter cast marriage instead of Same gotra, same village. In the others socity, religions why does not any one marriage with his blood sitser and has any parents allowed this type of marriage?

This is our culture where we obey the rules of socity and saying all gotra and village persons are our brothers and sister. This one showing that we are in socity of India, where we repect our relation in comparision of money and parties example: Bangal, Kerla where politions rules on all the socity and make rules according. On comments of Arjun and Subdra, my comment : In our socity Mama's girl is not real sister as per our history.

As per NDTV, honor killing is in North India not in South India, In south India, people sufix the name of his father not a Gotra which will change in 50 years of life of a person.

I will submit others comments in others sections.

gathwal
October 19th, 2010, 04:26 PM
Crime and criminals are common in all the world. What's that the khaps to do with. HARYANA is much far in these foul things as compared to states like UP,bengal ,bihar, maharashtra ,south india etc.Even khaps are social reformers and do good job in checking and eradicating these illicit things..It is totally the fault of our ministers and authorities that absurd topic against khaps are published in nationalised news papers.We people of haryana shold not take it lightly ,.,.after all it is a question of our dignity

vikasJAT
October 28th, 2010, 09:01 AM
Hi all,

I am new in Jatland and recently join the community. Saying now on Same gotra marriage and Role of khap panchayat in Jat community.

Now a days, we are waching on TV channals about "Honour Killing" in north india or in Capital of India and NCR. I agree with love marriage, inter cast marriage instead of Same gotra, same village. In the others socity, religions why does not any one marriage with his blood sitser and has any parents allowed this type of marriage?

This is our culture where we obey the rules of socity and saying all gotra and village persons are our brothers and sister. This one showing that we are in socity of India, where we repect our relation in comparision of money and parties example: Bangal, Kerla where politions rules on all the socity and make rules according. On comments of Arjun and Subdra, my comment : In our socity Mama's girl is not real sister as per our history.

As per NDTV, honor killing is in North India not in South India, In south India, people sufix the name of his father not a Gotra which will change in 50 years of life of a person.

I will submit others comments in others sections.

Kap pancayat ka kaam sai hai..........same village aur same gotra me sadi ni honi chahiye....... agar koi na mane in rules ko to pyar se samjhao aur fir bhi na mane to KHATAM.......
aaj same gotra me sadi kar rahe hain ,kal ko padose me sadi karenge......ye sab rokne ki liye khap panchayat bilkul sahi kaam kar rahi hai.

South side me like kerla aur chennai, same village me bhi shadi karte hain, yaha k rules alag hain aur apni side k alag, inke rules k according to shadi k liye ladka 27-28 k aas pass ka hota hai aur ladki 22 se upar......agar yaha ki humare yuva itni he nakal karte hain to itne din ruk k phir shadi karo.......mere batte 12 pass karte koni aur chori gail bhag ja se...... pache un ne pakadte raho......

KHAP PANCHAYAT BILKUL SAHI KAAM KAR RAHI HAI APNI PARACHIN SANSKRITI KO BACHANE K LIYE.............

vikasJAT
October 28th, 2010, 09:29 AM
गोत्तर विवाद पर सभी की अपनी अपनी राय हैं नजरिया हैं | सब एक बात पर तो सहमत हैं की खुद और माँ के गोत्तर में ब्याह गलत हैं | चौधरी साहब जैसे लोग खाप की मुखालफत करते हैं खुद के गाँव खेड़े में ब्याह को जायज ठहराते हैं | खाप प्रणाली सिर्फ देशवाली जाटों में हैं पंजाबी जाटों में इसका रूप जत्थों ने ले लिया | बागड़ी जाटों की खाप प्रणाली रजवाड़े आने से खत्म हो गई | यही कारण हैं की खाप प्रणाली खत्म होने से बागड़ी जाट शारीरिक व मानसिक रूप से रजवाड़ो के अधीन हो कर रह गए उनकी सोच गुलाम हो कर रह गई अगर ये बागड़ी जाट अपनी खाप प्रणाली मजबूत रखते तो इनका राज ख़त्म नहीं होता | राजस्थान में जाटों की आबादी राजपूतों से कम नहीं हैं | आज अगर जाट का नाम आता हैं तो लोगो के जेहन में यही आता हैं के हरयाणा या पश्चिमी उत्तर प्रदेश का होगा ना के राजस्थान का , राजस्थान का तो नाम आते ही रजवाड़ो की बू आती हैं | इसका कारण सिर्फ यहाँ की खाप प्रणाली हैं जो आज तक मजबूत हैं | चौधरी साहब कोई पहले या नए व्यक्ति नहीं हैं जो खाप के खिलाफ लिखते या बोलते हैं |



कइयो का कहना हैं के खाप खामखा के मुद्दे उठाती हैं , गाँव में गलियों शिक्षा बिजली आदि का ख्याल नहीं करती | इस सब के लिए सरकार ने एक पंचायती राज बना रखा हैं जो अपना काम करता हैं , जिसका सदस्य किसी भी जाति वर्ग से हो सकता हैं | खाप का काम अपने समाज के संस्कार संस्कृति के मान सम्मान को बचाना होता हैं |
दो चार दिन पहले NDTV पर एक प्रोग्राम में पचौरी साहब ने कहा के लोग 21vi सदी में जा लिए ये खाप वाले पता नहीं कहा जी रहे हैं , इनको तकनिकी विकास भी चाहिए और ऊपर से ये गोत्तर विवाह भी | कोई उससे पूछे की तकनिकी विकास चाहने के लिए क्या अब भाई को बहन से शादी करनी पड़ेगी ? यह लोग कैसे हमे मुर्ख बना रहे हैं कैसे हमे तोड़ रहे हैं यदि हम इनकी बातो में आ गए तो हमारी सोच इनकी गुलाम हो जाएगी हम खत्म हो जायेंगे |
इतिहास उठकर देखे तो सबसे ज्यादा संत सूरमे जाट कौम में जन्मे हैं जिसका कारण हमारा यह गोत्तर प्रणाली ही हैं | अगर या टूंट गई तो जाटों में भी हिजड़ो की फ़ौज हो जाएगी |
जैसा की खाप पंचायत ने अपने मसौदे में गोत्तर के साथ साथ गाँव खेड़े पडोसी गाँव छोड़ने की बात कही |
रही बात honour killing की तो कोई खाप कभी किसी को नहीं मरवाती न ही मारने का आदेश देती | हर खाप पंचायत में ऐसी शादी करने वालो को सिर्फ गाँव छोड़ने का हुकुम सुनाती हैं | यदि हमारे कानून में संसोधन हो जाता हैं तो ऐसी शादियों पर काफी हद तक नकेल कस जाएगी अगर कोई करेगा भी तो गाँव में नहीं आएगा जिससे इन् "honour killing " में भी कमी आएगी |
Vivek bhai ya baat to sahi kahi aapne. kap panchayat ka kaam gaam ki galiya saaf karna ya bijli arrange karana ni hai.

per bhai ye baat bhi hai ki khap panchayat kuch case me marne ka bhi order deti hai. mere gaam me aisa case hua tha jisme ladke-ladki k gharwalo ne kaha ki dono ko maar do to khap panchayat ne bhi han kar di unhe ek baar bhi ni roka. unone gaam bhi chod diya tha lekin unhe talah kar k gaam me le aaye aur dono ko maar diye. is case me mujhe khap panchayat ki galti lagi.

vpsheoran
April 24th, 2011, 07:44 AM
worth reading

Prikshit
September 29th, 2011, 05:17 PM
Firstly, I think individuals should understand why we our culture is not allowing same gotra marriages.
If they follow up this,I think we would be able to curb it.

Secondly I strongly oppose honor killing. Some alternatives like counselling may help to separate the individuals.
But killing someone is something henious act.

BLBijarniyan
October 22nd, 2011, 07:20 PM
hamen kya karna chahiye iska samay ab aa chuka hai. Arthat janvaron ki tarah insan ko bhi vyavhar karna chahiye. Ek Gay(Cow), ek bhains(Buffelow), Ek bakri(Goat) aaj jis nar(male) bachche ko janm de rahi hai vo bada hokar usi man(Mother) se santan(next generation) paida karne ka upkram kar leta hai to kya insan bhi jaanvar ban jaanaa chahiye iska javab kiske pas maujood hai ?

phoolkumar
August 15th, 2012, 08:51 PM
Bijarniyan Ji, Humen apne samaaj mein iske naam pe kyaa vidhaan chahiye, I think wo hum jaante bhi hain aur samjhte bhi hain....so doosre samajik samudaayon, jaatiyon aur dharmon se to humen koi sarokaaar hi nahin hona chahiye is mudde par. Kyonki hamaare liye kyaa uttam hai hum sirf wahi nirdharit kar sakte hain doosre samaaj ki doosra samaaj jaane.

To jaise ki mudda aata hai shadi-byaah ka to, I think Gotra system can prevail a minimum by leaving the self and mother's gotra. Rest if someone wants to leave Dadi and Nani gotra also that can be left upto their social conditions and preferences. [

Like mera Gotra malik hai aur Khap "Gathwala". Aur choonki meri Khap ne Malik gotra ke failaav ko dekhte hue naani ke gotra se nijaat de di hai aur agar "Daadi" gujar chuki hain to hum Daadi ka bhi gotra pote ki shadi ke liye consider kar sakte hain....lekin fir bhi aur jaise ki meri family mein aaj bhi meri daadi ke gujrane ke baad bhi mere dada (daadi ke maayka) se hamaare madhur sambhandh hain to hum aaj bhi daadi ka gotra chhodte hain.....so aise agar koi itni lambi nibha sakta hai to nibhaaye par haa ek nyuntam satar jo khaap ne nirdharit kar diya hum uske daayre mein hi hain.......

so is tarah is system mein minimum common agenda bhi nibh jata hai society ka aur lambi ristedaari bhiQ

UOTE=BLBijarniyan;282900]hamen kya karna chahiye iska samay ab aa chuka hai. Arthat janvaron ki tarah insan ko bhi vyavhar karna chahiye. Ek Gay(Cow), ek bhains(Buffelow), Ek bakri(Goat) aaj jis nar(male) bachche ko janm de rahi hai vo bada hokar usi man(Mother) se santan(next generation) paida karne ka upkram kar leta hai to kya insan bhi jaanvar ban jaanaa chahiye iska javab kiske pas maujood hai ?
[/QUOTE]