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brahmtewatia
May 11th, 2010, 06:28 PM
the khap/gotra issue has become more confusing than ever before... more so, by the media and by the non existant HR skills of our fellow JAT representatives who have failed, time and again, to put the matter across the public in a meaningful way. from the various TV episodes on the matter, i learnt that those presenting the show haven't got an iota of knowledge of JAT customs and traditions... what more they can't even pronounce the word "khaap" phonetically correct.

to my observation, i found them confused on two separate issue's : no.1 khap diktats/murders and no.2 gotra issue's. a confused amalgamation on the two issue's with improper ratiocination deriving to illogical conclusions is making a mockery of our rich customs and traditions. eventually leading to the emergence of various other issue's within the issue, thereby making the situation even more worse.

it is highly deplorable to see that those who haven't got the faintest idea of the social fabric of village life are becoming the spokesperson of the media... honestly, i feel like kicking hard on their butts.

these pseudo intellectuals in control of media house from the confines of their plush air-conditioned studios have allegedly said that the ostracism of those found guilty of "within gotra" marriage as inhuman and barbarous.

mr. v.p. singh has rightly pointed out in one of his previous post that - "our society has been proscribing and ostracizing all those dissidents, who were found to be indulging in the irresponsible acts of skirting the bounds of civility and societal norms... and that has been the best deterrent so far".

would appreciate your views on the poll. imo and as rightly pointed out by jagmohan sir in one of his earlier posts... "that we must not allow these pseudo intellectuals who control the media houses to go beyond a certain point in Khap and now our custom/tradition bashing".

vikasgulia
May 11th, 2010, 06:58 PM
One belongs to a particular religion, cast and community firstly by birth &/or subsequently by prescribing to the established notions and beliefs. In case, he/she afford to overlook them, then they can afford to be "ostracized" also.
Belief (same gotra avoidance) in question here has a scientific basis beyond doubt and is unlike a dogma that may have crippled the community. Given that why should not one preserve what is good and not try to cull the age old tradition under the garb of modernity?

deependra
May 12th, 2010, 09:40 PM
Yes , we should ostracize those people who are not following our valuable customs/traditions knowing that their roots lies deep in the scientific reasons. Ostracizing will be the best punishment for those people. In ancient India we used to have this kind of tradition rather than putting the people behind the bars they would set free and ignored by everyone in the society.

brahmtewatia
May 13th, 2010, 12:56 PM
it seems members are having tough time in making a decision ?

or do they think the issue is irrelevant ?

or else they don't want their identity to be revealed, though they would like to say YES.

lets have a clear verdict YES or NO. if confused you can chose option 3 or 4.

cooljat
May 13th, 2010, 09:18 PM
.

Fully endorse Gulia bhai's view point here.
If someone doesn't care and overlook such very imp Jat customs/traditions, he/she don't have any right to be called a Jat !




One belongs to a particular religion, cast and community firstly by birth &/or subsequently by prescribing to the established notions and beliefs. In case, he/she afford to overlook them, then they can afford to be "ostracized" also.
Belief (same gotra avoidance) in question here has a scientific basis beyond doubt and is unlike a dogma that may have crippled the community. Given that why should not one preserve what is good and not try to cull the age old tradition under the garb of modernity?

upendersingh
May 13th, 2010, 11:36 PM
Sure, guilty of "Within Gotra" marriage should be ostrasized by the Jats. Some people violate the rules of the Jats and yet they will enjoy being Jat...no...no...this can't be tolerated.

brahmtewatia
May 14th, 2010, 12:15 PM
globalization is taking place at much faster pace then expected. although, my vote is YES (option-I) but i am wary of the scenario after 10-20 years from now as stated in my previous post in editorial section. ( http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?29686-Justice-of-Khap-Panchayats-on-within-same-gotra-village-marriages-how-far-good-fair&p=243214&viewfull=1#post243214 )

if my son reads my opinion after 10 years from now, he might take me for a nut-case ! rightly said by someone - "nothing is permanent but change".


the problem comes when these two belief’s of tradition come in way of changing times. you can treat the global age today as a battle between modernity and tradition. family traditions are, unfortunately, one of the great casualties of modern times. as families become more fragmented nd disconnected, there is less time nd opportunity to enjoy the simple traditions that were once a natural part of family life… sad, but true !

many of us remember nd miss the little rituals that formed the basis of our own childhood, yet don’t see a way to fit them into a life that is so different from that of our parents when we were growing up.

traditions nd rituals change with the passage of time as we evolve. new traditions nd ways of living come in force every single day to ease out complexities of our erstwhile traditions nd for the betterment of our lives. sometimes, we even chose them as per our convenience. there is no "one size fits all" solution to today’s increasingly complicated family situations, instead fit your traditions to your family situation and the people in it.

dkumars
May 14th, 2010, 12:27 PM
globalization is taking place at much faster pace then expected. although, my vote is YES (option-I) but i am wary of the scenario after 10-20 years from now as stated in my previous post in editorial section. ( http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?29686-Justice-of-Khap-Panchayats-on-within-same-gotra-village-marriages-how-far-good-fair&p=243214&viewfull=1#post243214 )

if my son reads my opinion after 10 years from now, he might take me for a nut-case ! rightly said by someone - "nothing is permanent but change".



Fully endorse Brahm bhai's view point here.
This is what I said in many threads and reiterate now.

piyush23
May 15th, 2010, 12:19 AM
There r too many polls on a single subject ''honour killing''
pak gaye yaar

singhvp
May 15th, 2010, 12:23 AM
We are simply wasting our energy and time on an issue which is virtually non-existent. Coming generations will define their future according to their conveniences in the prevailing circumstances. If they will find the prevailing customs relevant, they will automatically adopt, if not they will reject at any cost and will find the loopholes. It is practically very difficult to constantly monitor and meticulously enforce a social boycott. These kind of boycotts are fluid in nature and not long-lasting. In our society, it is not very difficult to bribe the people. Even one bottle of whisky is enough to buy the loyalty of a Panchayat Member or a group member to ease the restrictions on a censured family. In some cases, the Panchayats/social congregations would themselves exonerate the convicted family at the time of Panchayat election if the family has substantial votes.

dkumars
May 15th, 2010, 12:28 AM
We are simply wasting our energy and time on an issue which is virtually non-existent. Coming generations will define their future according to their conveniences in the prevailing circumstances. If they will find the prevailing customs relevant, they will automatically adopt, if not they will reject at any cost and will find the loopholes. It is practically very difficult to constantly monitor and meticulously enforce a social boycott. These kind of boycotts are fluid in nature and not long-lasting. In our society, it is not very difficult to bribe the people. Even one bottle of whisky is enough to buy the loyalty of a Panchayat Member or a group member to ease the restrictions on a censured family. In some cases, the Panchayats/social congregations would themselves exonerate the convicted family at the time of Panchayat election if the family has substantial votes.

very well said sir, you have just sum it all.

akshaymalik84
May 15th, 2010, 12:48 AM
We are simply wasting our energy and time on an issue which is virtually non-existent. Coming generations will define their future according to their conveniences in the prevailing circumstances. If they will find the prevailing customs relevant, they will automatically adopt, if not they will reject at any cost and will find the loopholes. It is practically very difficult to constantly monitor and meticulously enforce a social boycott. These kind of boycotts are fluid in nature and not long-lasting. In our society, it is not very difficult to bribe the people. Even one bottle of whisky is enough to buy the loyalty of a Panchayat Member or a group member to ease the restrictions on a censured family. In some cases, the Panchayats/social congregations would themselves exonerate the convicted family at the time of Panchayat election if the family has substantial votes.

Fer ibb tahin te Whisky ki peti pahuch jani chahiye thi Panchatiya k gharan......kham kha ka rola karwa rakhya se itne dina ka. Rk^2 uncle bhi hath khade kare haande hai aaj kal....na te we yo suggestion Hooda sahab tak pahuncha dete or Haryana mei shanti e shanti hoti.

singhvp
May 17th, 2010, 08:32 AM
Fer ibb tahin te Whisky ki peti pahuch jani chahiye thi Panchatiya k gharan......kham kha ka rola karwa rakhya se itne dina ka. Rk^2 uncle bhi hath khade kare haande hai aaj kal....na te we yo suggestion Hooda sahab tak pahuncha dete or Haryana mei shanti e shanti hoti.

Please read "Some of the Panchayat Members" and which is true.

Samarkadian
May 17th, 2010, 09:31 AM
Please read "Some of the Panchayat Members" and which is true.

Mr Singh, I have an objection. Nowadays panchyats elections are going on and in every panchyat there is representation in panchyat from from different castes. Would you please mind telling that those 'some' members were Jat or from other castes? Further what kind of verdict was affected by these few members in a panchyat in the lure of a bottle ? Please be precise.

vijay
May 17th, 2010, 09:41 AM
Mr Singh, I have an objection. Nowadays panchyats elections are going on and in every panchyat there is representation in panchyat from from different castes. Would you please mind telling that those 'some' members were Jat or from other castes? Further what kind of verdict was affected by these few members in a panchyat in the lure of a bottle ? Please be precise.

Samar, you are not an alien to Village and Panchayat system and their political agendas and liabilities. I expected some better thoughts and questions from your side instead of this oudated style of asking stupid questions like a new aspirant politician.

Samarkadian
May 17th, 2010, 09:43 AM
Samar, you are not an alien to Village and Panchayat system and their political agendas and liabilities. I expected some better thoughts and questions from your side instead of this oudated style of asking stupid questions like a new aspirant politician.

Are you Mr Singh?

vijay
May 17th, 2010, 09:45 AM
Are you Mr Singh?

Of course, Mr. Singh

rakeshsehrawat
May 17th, 2010, 09:59 AM
Well i have seen one thing in so called modern society.
People drink Wine etc. in parties, in bars and even in their houses but they cannot drink in lawn of their apartment which they bought by paying crores.

Reason is simple that they gives bad effect on the neighbourhood then if same thing jats are saying in different context.Drinking is not banned by Rules but by society only so that they will not pollute the society
Why people ask to shift wine and beer shop away from their neighbourhood?
Same thing applies here nobody wants a KUDAGHAR near his living place.
If a person is wounded by bullet doctors cut that part of body so that poision will not mix with blood and disable other body parts.
These type of people should be ostracised from society.

singhvp
May 17th, 2010, 12:26 PM
Are you Mr Singh?
Yes, Samar, I was about to give the same reply which Vijay has given. So, I endorse his views and agree with him that you are a pretty mature and learned man knowing our society very well. Hence, I do not feel it necessary to reply any question, the answer of which you already know. Thanks for your attention.

ravichaudhary
May 17th, 2010, 09:59 PM
[QUOTE=vpsingh;245651} Even one bottle of whisky is enough to buy the loyalty of a Panchayat Member or a group member .[/QUOTE]

VP Sahib

Did you really mean to write this?

Do you have evidence for this?

Ravi Chaudhary

singhvp
May 18th, 2010, 07:33 AM
VP Sahib

Did you really mean to write this?

Do you have evidence for this?

Ravi Chaudhary

Ravi Sahab,

Even though, I have very convincing reply, I have decided not to reply to your post to avoid any potential controversy in view of the turbulent weather nowadays. My earlier post may also be deleted if found objectionable by you.

brahmtewatia
May 18th, 2010, 12:32 PM
माईलौर्ड अपनी अगली पोस्ट लिखने से पहले मैं कुछ अर्ज़ करना चाहूँगा...

जाटलैंड पर सबसे पहली पोस्ट में यह कह दिया गया था कि मर्डर करना गुनाह है...
लेकिन मीडिया ने नहीं सुना, और जाटों के कल्चर को नष्ट करने कि पूरी साज़िश कि गई.
दूसरी पोस्ट के आने से पहले, मीडिया ने हंगामा कर दिया और केस बना दिया दफा 302 के तहत मर्डर का.
जबकि जाटलैंड पर सबने यह कबूल कर लिया था, कि मर्डर करना गुनाह है और जाटों का कल्चर बिलकुल सही है.

और मैं भी यह सच अपनी पोस्ट में लिखने ही वाला था कि चड्ढा साहब (मीडिया एंड पिस्सू's) ने फिर से अपनी चाल चल दी (2nd episode on ndtv)
और पब्लिक को गुमराह करके हमें फिर से पोस्ट लिखने पर मजबूर कर दिया.
नहीं तो माईलौर्ड पहली पोस्ट के बाद ही ये साबित हो गया था कि मर्डर करना गुनाह है... गुनाह.
और आज... आज आप फिर से पोस्ट लिखवाने पर मजबूर कर रहे हैं ?

इस पोस्ट को लिखने से पहले जाटों का कल्चर ख़तम हो जायेगा माईलौर्ड, और आप केस बनायेंगे तालिबानी हुकूमत का.
... और फिर से पोस्ट लिखने को कह देंगे.
और इस तरह, ना तो कोई पोस्ट लिखने वाला रहेगा और न ही हमारे इस कल्चर को बचाने वाला
... रह जाएगी तो बस ये पोस्ट.

और जाटलैंड पर यही होता आया है माई लौर्ड...

पोस्ट पे पोस्ट, पोस्ट पे पोस्ट, पोस्ट पे पोस्ट, पोस्ट पे पोस्ट !!!

लेकिन कनक्ल्युज़न नहीं निकला माईलौर्ड... कनक्ल्युज़न नहीं निकला...
... मिली हैं तो बस ये पोस्ट.

मीडिया के दलालों ने हमारी मासूम पोस्टों को इन्साफ के खिलाफ एक हथियार कि तरह इस्तेमाल किया है माईलौर्ड...
अपने चैनलों कि टी. आर. पी. बढाने के लिए अपने रंगमंच पे ये लोग जाट कल्चर का धंदा हैं... धंदा.
जहां झूठ बोला जाता है, बकवास कि जाती है और पब्लिक को गुमराह किया जाता है...
... और रह जाती हैं तो बस ये पोस्ट... सिर्फ पोस्ट.

जाटलेंडर अपना कीमती समय निकाल कर यहाँ आते हैं, और लिख जाते हैं
... तो सिर्फ ये पोस्ट.
... बस पोस्ट माईलौर्ड
… रह जाती है तो सिर्फ और सिर्फ ये पोस्ट.

rakeshsehrawat
May 18th, 2010, 12:55 PM
ना सन्नी पाजी ना कोई बात नहीं हमें पता है पिछले पांच साल में अपने सिर्फ हमें फ्लॉप फिल्मे ही दी हैं पर हम भी बेशरम हैं किसी ए फिल्म काढ ल्यो हामने जरूर देखनी है सोचा हाँ कदे तो अकल आवेगी ! बाकी आपने देख्या नहीं आजकल पोस्ट के अलावा जाटलैंड पे गेम्स की धूम मची है एक मेम्बर पन्दरा बार भजा लिया पर कसुता कीड़ा हो रह्य है खेला का तीसरे दन नए कुड़ते पहर के फेर आ ले है इब तो सुना है जनानिया के कुड़ते पहर के आया है !पन्नू ने धूमा ठा राख्या है काम धंधा छोड़ के आर्केड चैम्पियन हो रहया है ! चौपाड़ में भी धूम मच रही है! पर आपने पोस्ट तें फुर्सत हो तब ना

brahmtewatia
May 19th, 2010, 12:19 PM
These kind of boycotts are fluid in nature and not long-lasting. In our society, it is not very difficult to bribe the people. Even one bottle of whisky is enough to buy the loyalty of a Panchayat Member or a group member to ease the restrictions on a censured family. In some cases, the Panchayats/social congregations would themselves exonerate the convicted family at the time of Panchayat election if the family has substantial votes.


VP Sahib

Did you really mean to write this?

Do you have evidence for this?

Ravi Chaudhary

ravi ji,

my knowledge on panchayats may not be 1% of yours. neither i've attended or seen the proceedings of any panchayat. but this is for sure that our panchayats are no more a consecrated or a pious institution, as might be the perception of many on this portal.

i cannot be very precise about the rot that (now) exists in our panchayat system esp if you talk of sarpanch's being bought by a bottle of liquor. but i can definitely quote you an example who happens to be my distant rishtedar nd how he managed to got elected. he made the liquor flow in abundance amongst chamar's nd chudha's of the village and got elected as a member, not once, but couple of times. not only this, he happens to be the close aide of village sarpanch. this count of incidence is well known to me nd i can say that with conviction.

its no wonder that the same may hold true for sarpanch(s) as well.

brahmtewatia
May 19th, 2010, 12:24 PM
the member was/is a JAT.


Would you please mind telling that those 'some' members were Jat or from other castes?

VirJ
May 19th, 2010, 01:09 PM
[FONT=Century Gothic][COLOR=Blue]ravi ji,

my knowledge on panchayats may not be 1% of yours. neither i've attended or seen the proceedings of any panchayat. but this is for sure that our panchayats are no more a consecrated or a pious institution, as might be the perception of many on this portal.



Which Panchayat u talking about ?? The democratic & elected one or Khap one?

brahmtewatia
May 19th, 2010, 01:21 PM
isn't it very clear nd evident in my post ?


Which Panchayat u talking about ?? The democratic & elected one or Khap one?

VirJ
May 19th, 2010, 01:26 PM
isn't it very clear nd evident in my post ?



It is indeed. I was little confused as some reference in the thread was toward khap panchayat. But the thing which u mentioned happen even in a few MLA & MP elections as well.

chanderbhan
May 19th, 2010, 05:05 PM
our values and customs should not be broken by mare untimely and ill matured persons. These customs have some value and meaning behind in our society, otherwise till now people would have not known whose father is who. inter cast marriage is still acceptable but within gotra/village it should not be.

atamjeet78
May 22nd, 2010, 05:54 AM
Marriage within gotra
As mentioned earlier there is only one thing permanent and that is "Change"
How hard we may try but we wont be able to beat it. Over the years we have changed our profession have changed, eating habbits have changed our clothes have changed. So there will be change for sure.
I am open to change but it should be gradual. Change should not happen overnight b'cos overnight changes are distructive. We can compare overnight changes with earthquake thats a change in a moment and we know what happens after that.... "CHAOS".
As community stands today we are not ready for marriage within same gotra nor with in mothers gotra. I personnaly dont favour dadi and nani gotra too.
But now a days nanni kanni karne lagge hain. May be dadi's gotra will be sidelined too .
But it should be slow n steady

sanjaymalik
May 22nd, 2010, 12:54 PM
Got elected in election through influence of liquor flow is rampant and everyone know about this fact no specifice evidence required.
But a Sarpanch/panch or head of any panchayat bought for a single bottle of liquor is first time came to know.Thanks for such a great information, it's just like a SANSANIKHEJ Khabar INDIATV without any base.

on the topic of thread those who break our jat customs, traditions, culture must be ostrasized from our society or village or community instead murder through proper instructions instead of harrass punishment like murder.

rsdalal
May 22nd, 2010, 05:29 PM
Brahm,
You are talking about elected panchayats and VP was refering Khap panchayats. Why to mix up things ?



ravi ji,

my knowledge on panchayats may not be 1% of yours. neither i've attended or seen the proceedings of any panchayat. but this is for sure that our panchayats are no more a consecrated or a pious institution, as might be the perception of many on this portal.

i cannot be very precise about the rot that (now) exists in our panchayat system esp if you talk of sarpanch's being bought by a bottle of liquor. but i can definitely quote you an example who happens to be my distant rishtedar nd how he managed to got elected. he made the liquor flow in abundance amongst chamar's nd chudha's of the village and got elected as a member, not once, but couple of times. not only this, he happens to be the close aide of village sarpanch. this count of incidence is well known to me nd i can say that with conviction.

its no wonder that the same may hold true for sarpanch(s) as well.

ravichaudhary
May 22nd, 2010, 08:12 PM
Thread locked for 3 days

Ravi Chaudhary

brahmtewatia
May 27th, 2010, 10:16 PM
Brahm,
You are talking about elected panchayats and VP was refering Khap panchayats. Why to mix up things ?

ranvir, go through the thread once again. i am not mixing the issue. also, i nowhere see VP talking of khap panchayats in his below quoted posts, unless i am terribly mistaken.


We are simply wasting our energy and time on an issue which is virtually non-existent. Coming generations will define their future according to their conveniences in the prevailing circumstances. If they will find the prevailing customs relevant, they will automatically adopt, if not they will reject at any cost and will find the loopholes. It is practically very difficult to constantly monitor and meticulously enforce a social boycott. These kind of boycotts are fluid in nature and not long-lasting. In our society, it is not very difficult to bribe the people. Even one bottle of whisky is enough to buy the loyalty of a Panchayat Member or a group member to ease the restrictions on a censured family. In some cases, the Panchayats/social congregations would themselves exonerate the convicted family at the time of Panchayat election if the family has substantial votes.


Please read "Some of the Panchayat Members" and which is true.

ravichaudhary
May 28th, 2010, 12:30 AM
Dear Brahm, Vipin , others


Please do not get distracted by Shri V P Singh' s post. It is not relevant to the topic.

For closure:

These kind of broad brush comments are not made , I suggest ,after refection, but on the spur of the moment.

Of course in elections of all kinds wining and dining takes place. Parties are thrown,gifts are given people are made to feel good, and their support and vote is sought.

That is a far cry from being able to buy a Panchayat member for a Rs 50 bottle of liquor.

I have suggested elsewhere, that in future anyone making such allegations on this forum, should support it with evidence or refrain from making such accusations.

Could we move on, and discuss the topic(s) at hand,in a rational manner

Ravi Chaudhary

vijay
May 28th, 2010, 12:53 AM
Rightly said Ravi Ji.

I think it was a nice gap to recollect out thoughts and to forget about the instant impulses on some minor comments/arguments.

I think that same gotra marriage incidents are rare and we should not take them as a major threat to our societal structure. Its just about few people violeting the customs and traditons for their personal reasons instead of any societal revolution. This may be considered as a social crime and let their families decide their social punishment rather than taking law in their own hands.

rsdalal
May 28th, 2010, 05:34 AM
It is very valid to bycott and expell people from society, if somebody does not follow the set forth rules.
Society is just like a extended family and people need to respect the rules.

brahmtewatia
May 28th, 2010, 11:44 AM
for some very valid reasons, i put this thread in "social responsibility" instead of "current affairs", cos the matter, though is highlighted in the present context but the subject, imo, definitely holds its ground in "social responsibility".

was wondering for quite some time nd i am confused over my own poll (haven't voted yet)...

"ostracizing : हुक्का पानी बंद"... has this been our tradition or practice ?

what's the difference between the two ?... would appreciate your sensible comments.

rakeshsehrawat
May 28th, 2010, 12:05 PM
for some very valid reasons, i put this thread in "social responsibility" instead of "current affairs", cos the matter, though is highlighted in the present context but the subject, imo, definitely holds its ground in "social responsibility".

was wondering for quite some time nd i am confused over my own poll (haven't voted yet)...

"ostracizing : हुक्का पानी बंद"... has this been our tradition or practice ?

what's the difference between the two ?Consult dictonary... would appreciate your sensible comments.

हुक्का पानी बंद ना तो प्रेक्टिस है ना कस्टम ये एक सजा है और सजा इन दोनों में से कुछ भी नहीं हो सकती ये उन ओछी हरकत करने वालो को सबक सिखाने के लिए है जो समाज के कानून नहीं मानते उन्हें समाज में उठने बैठने का हक़ नहीं है !

Arvindc
May 28th, 2010, 12:40 PM
for some very valid reasons, i put this thread in "social responsibility" instead of "current affairs", cos the matter, though is highlighted in the present context but the subject, imo, definitely holds its ground in "social responsibility".

was wondering for quite some time nd i am confused over my own poll (haven't voted yet)...

"ostracizing : हुक्का पानी बंद"... has this been our tradition or practice ?

what's the difference between the two ?... would appreciate your sensible comments.

Both are same. ostracizing : has a broder meaning. हुक्का पानी बंद - is more specific, in context of jatland.

brahmtewatia
May 28th, 2010, 12:50 PM
you didn't got my point. i am questioning ostracizing/हुक्का पानी बंद (both same) has been our tradition or practice ?... nd the difference btwn tradition's nd practice's



Both are same. ostracizing : has a broder meaning. हुक्का पानी बंद - is more specific, in context of jatland.

rakeshsehrawat
May 28th, 2010, 01:02 PM
Practice


noun
रिवाज
प्रथा
सीमा - शुल्क
आदत
परिपाटी
प्रचलन
चरित्र
Custom


noun
अभ्यास
प्रथा
कार्य
अमल
व्यवसाय
क्रिया
मुहावरा
सेवन
verb
अभ्यास करना
साधना
जीविका चलाना
उद्यम करना
मांजना
Tradition
noun

परंपरा
रिवाज
प्रथा
रूढ़ि
परिपाटी
लीक

ravichaudhary
May 28th, 2010, 04:34 PM
members may wish to comment on :

1) How in today's mobile society do you ostracize someone from Jat society?

Earlier- Hookah Pani Band, meant no cooperation from the rest of the village, making survival impossible with the same lifestyle

Is this possible today?
Ravi Chaudhary.

rakeshsehrawat
May 28th, 2010, 04:38 PM
members may wish to comment on :

1) How in today's mobile society do you ostracize someone from Jat society?

Earlier- Hookah Pani Band, meant no cooperation from the rest of the village, making survival impossible with the same lifestyle

Is this possible today?
Ravi Chaudhary.
This is still possible in villages .In cities people don't care about such things.If someone did this and run away from village then he himself is ostracized.

ravichaudhary
May 28th, 2010, 05:05 PM
This is still possible in villages .In cities people don't care about such things.If someone did this and run away from village then he himself is ostracized.

Jats live in cities too.

What is the effect of ostracization in cities?

Ravi Chaudhary

mukeshkumar007
May 28th, 2010, 05:29 PM
Gotra is a unified common parentage social organization spread over in various states. This parentage may be of thousands of years old. Its affects, social code of conduct and behavior remains fresh and alive so long people take pride in their parentage.

The media lays stress on individual freedom of the marriage in respective relation even the marriage in same gotra but media forget the society generated from common parentage is also struggling to maintain the purity of genomes. Therefore “Sagotra” identifies itself with “Sahpind” mentioned in the Manu Smriti. Hindu marriage act avoids ‘SahPind’ marriage and is silent on “Sahgotra”marriage but to my mind ‘sahgotra’ and ‘sahpind’ are synonyms to each other, may be they are separate by hundreds of generation, in that case our social code of conduct based on ‘Manu Smriti’ allows such marriages after completion of ‘Sahpind/Sahgotra’ cycle of hundred generation as by the time our genomes could have changed. Sahgotra is a genetic map with variable degree of genomes.

Keeping the above scientific view of marriage in the Hindu society, some youth who don’t have the knowledge as described above may indulge in marriages which are incestuous which bound to result into genetic disorder in their coming generation. The Khap has reason and pronounce their verdict amounting to death sentences but in my view panchants shouldn’t reach to the conclusion while other options are available which are
a) dissolve the marriage
b) outcast the offender
c) Impose heavy financial punishment
d) exile them

But one can understand the desperation of Panchayat as they consider it as stigma on the honor of their community. The reasons attributed for such marriages can be

a) lack of family value and pride
b) modern education where in moral ethics don’t have any place
c) double standard behavior of parents in family
d) Standard of the family and social values has reduced drastically.
e) Western education and culture & media is to be blamed (but in western societies too there are number of societies who follow the genetic social order strictly.

Indian media is semi literate and therefore arguments on such sensitive issue don’t stand to the core of the issue whereas the effect is very powerful and thereby the influence on the masses is very wrong.

Society changes from time to time. Same gotra marriages are a kind of resurgence/revolution against the strict code of conduct but this is only due to as youth don’t understand the fine aspect and benefit of the social rules established thousands of years earlier. The youth of today failed to appreciate the purity of their values but remain misguided and confused by half digested knowledge published in various articles. Therefore in my point of view, it is the time that wise man of the society/community must discuss the social disorder and challenges taking place in the society. Efforts should be made to highlight the importance of social code of conducts. We must discourage sahgotra/sahpind marriages instead should allow the youth to go for inter cast marriage in Hindu society.

rakeshsehrawat
May 28th, 2010, 09:52 PM
Jats live in cities too.

What is the effect of ostracization in cities?

Ravi Chaudhary


Jats live in cities too.

What is the effect of ostracization in cities?

Ravi Chaudhary
Dear Sir

Jats live in cities too.
What is the effect of ostracization in cities?
Ravi Chaudhary
Dear Sir
Ostracization is from society. In cities there is already no society. People get togeather from a sector or apartments of same building and call themselves is society that doesn't mean society. Society is circle which comes to you in times of joy(marriege or some other function) or Sorrow(Someone's death or accident). In villages it was like that in good or bad times of a person people were togeather.After introduction of TV the culture starts changing and people started locking themselves in a room in front of BUDHU BAKSA watching fashionable witch like females. But still in villages people still support each other whatever may be the tension in between people support in bad times atleast.
Now something that i have seen in city. An old neighbour died whose flat was adjescent to mine.I was batchlor at that time and i came to know about incident on his Satarhvi. People played music they danced between these days and i was also one of them. As soon as i came to know we stopped music if it were in village the scene would have been different.
Another incident of Australia a man got divorce from a lady they seprated and started living away.They had a daughter. After few years it happened that father and daughter meet i a night club and they fall in love. They decided to marry and as they started inviting people they came to know that they are father and daughter. Still they got married but his friends and relatives were spit on him.
Society is everywhere may be having differet mind sets and moral values.
Anyone who is jat and came to know about such incident like marriege in same gotra will critisize it irrespective of city or village.Sehar mein hukka pani hota bhi nahi hai.Pani ek rapiye ka gilas ya 15 rapiye ki botal mile hai hukke ki ek kagach ki nalki ban gayee starting from 3-4 rupees.
Jats gaon se hi hain city mein bas gaye to kya hua aaj bhi jyadatar apne dah sanskar ke liye apne gaon ki keh ke jate hain.Aaj aap amrika mein bas gaye to aap amriki thode ho jaoge?

Samarkadian
May 31st, 2010, 10:25 AM
heh! Rakesh , You have elaborated just 3-4 ways of explaining that sky is blue out of atleast 15. Go on!

HPMalikDaboda
June 6th, 2010, 08:50 PM
Though as per the traditions in our villages there cannot be any answer other than 'YES' and any sane person cannot think of justifying marriage in the same gotra. My vote is also for yes. One aspect to be noted in this regard is that the world is changing at a very fast pace. If this pace continues or accelerates then after 30-40 years a large percentage of persons in the metro cities would not be able to tell their gotra. However, I feel that time is the best judge and so called forward citizens residing in metro cities may think that gotra has no role to play in a person's life.

ssindhu
June 12th, 2010, 09:19 PM
science can't override personal freedom. anything which doesn't harm a third person is not harmful for the society and is harmful only for the individuials. and if the individuals are ok with carrying on the harms, the society shouldn't intervene. believe me hooda nad navin jindal won't kill their kids if they marry within the same caste if they chose to. they will only disown like bhajanlal disowned his son, taht too for political reasons. people should but politicain's thoughts. same gotra marriages happen in many other communities like punjabi, south india. what problems you see in their offsprings?

Meerasansanwal
June 12th, 2010, 09:30 PM
science can't override personal freedom. anything which doesn't harm a third person is not harmful for the society and is harmful only for the individuials. and if the individuals are ok with carrying on the harms, the society shouldn't intervene. believe me hooda nad navin jindal won't kill their kids if they marry within the same caste if they chose to. they will only disown like bhajanlal disowned his son, taht too for political reasons. people should but politicain's thoughts. same gotra marriages happen in many other communities like punjabi, south india. what problems you see in their offsprings?

seema is dere any limit to personal freedom or is it just without boundaries?

ssindhu
June 12th, 2010, 10:09 PM
no limit to personal freedom until and unless it affects other people significantly. tell me what's wrong in it? if my neigbour (or my own kid whn i have one lol) marries in same gotra, how does it hram me or anybody else.

Arvindc
June 15th, 2010, 11:24 AM
no limit to personal freedom until and unless it affects other people significantly. tell me what's wrong in it? if my neigbour (or my own kid whn i have one lol) marries in same gotra, how does it hram me or anybody else.


Teenagers are too young and ignorant to understand the significance of social norms and rules. I suggest, watch 'the Jungle Book - Mowgli" again. May be you will get some understanding.

Nature also has some rules..
Rules are not formed to curb freedom, rather they formed to protect society and enjoy life (within bounds).

rakeshsehrawat
June 15th, 2010, 11:47 AM
no limit to personal freedom until and unless it affects other people significantly. tell me what's wrong in it? if my neigbour (or my own kid whn i have one lol) marries in same gotra, how does it hram me or anybody else.
Seema ji kyon do ghara ka naas karo ho apne ladke aur ladki ki hi shadi karwa do do ghara ki jagah ek ghar mein e sadh jagi
And if you are not married you do it

I think they are talking about you
http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?22478-Is-Seema-ji-being-banned-justified

jitendershooda
June 15th, 2010, 12:25 PM
same gotra marriages happen in many other communities like punjabi, south india. what problems you see in their offsprings?

http://www.krepublishers.com/02-Journals/IJHG/IJHG-03-0-000-000-2003-Web/IJHG-03-4-195-288-03-Abst-PDF/IJHG-03-4-217-219-2003-Garewal/IJHG-03-4-217-219-2003-Garewal.pdf


Thalassemia is the most commonly inherited
disorder worldwide. In India, β- thalassemia
affects different ethnic and geographical groups,
with prevalence of 2-14% in different regions in
an ICMR study (1993). In Punjab the prevalence
reported by Sukumaran and Masters was 6.5%
(1974). The population of Punjab is approximately
15-18 million and is heterogeneous in its caste
structure. Marriages most often take place within
the same caste and it is important to know the
prevalence of β-thalassemia trait amongst the
different castes as well as the distribution of the
various mutations amongst the different castes
for proper counseling and prenatal diagnosis.
We have studied the prevalence of β-thalassemia
and the β-gene mutations in Punjabis belonging
to different castes. This data is useful for planning
cost effective screening programmes as well as
providing genetic counseling and prenatal
diagnosis.

sunillathwal
June 15th, 2010, 12:28 PM
no limit to personal freedom until and unless it affects other people significantly. tell me what's wrong in it? if my neigbour (or my own kid whn i have one lol) marries in same gotra, how does it hram me or anybody else.
I agree.. nothing wrong. Social norms are crap and so is the Indian Penal Code.

Eg: Person X killed person Y.

> X is happy (for the obvious reason).
> Y can not be unhappy (as he is dead).
> Incident does not affect me, you or neighbors (so they are nonchalant at best)

So, we have: 1 very happy and satisfied person (that would be X) + One unresponsive person (that would be Y) + nonchalant mob (we the people).

Net result: Happiness.

Conclusion: Murdering should be allowed as it bring happiness; also anything that happens between two person is their personal business (you, me and society should not interfere).


P. S. In the above example, for the sake of simplification, I have assumed that person Y is a single, unmarried, loner and the only child to his parents who btw are dead... means no string attached.

vijay
June 15th, 2010, 01:28 PM
I agree.. nothing wrong. Social norms are crap and so is the Indian Penal Code.

Eg: Person X killed person Y.

> X is happy (for the obvious reason).
> Y can not be unhappy (as he is dead).
> Incident does not affect me, you or neighbors (so they are nonchalant at best)

So, we have: 1 very happy and satisfied person (that would be X) + One unresponsive person (that would be Y) + nonchalant mob (we the people).

Net result: Happiness.

Conclusion: Murdering should be allowed as it bring happiness; also anything that happens between two person is their personal business (you, me and society should not interfere).


P. S. In the above example, for the sake of simplification, I have assumed that person Y is a single, unmarried, loner and the only child to his parents who btw are dead... means no string attached.


So, as per your mathematical analysis, murdering someone is necessary to remain Happy. I propose another analytical algorithm to remain happy.

Eg. Person X do not kills Y.

> X is happy ( because he didn't committed a crime )
> Y is happy ( because he is still surviving )
> Incident affects all of us and so all are happy that nobody got killed.

Net Result : Happiness

PS : I assume that all the people involed are married, having families, many siblings and relatives ....... means all strings attached.


Make some sense ?

rakeshsehrawat
June 15th, 2010, 02:04 PM
So, as per your mathematical analysis, murdering someone is necessary to remain Happy. I propose another analytical algorithm to remain happy.

Eg. Person X do not kills Y.

> X is happy ( because he didn't committed a crime )
> Y is happy ( because he is still surviving )
> Incident affects all of us and so all are happy that nobody got killed.

Net Result : Happiness

PS : I assume that all the people involed are married, having families, many siblings and relatives ....... means all strings attached.


Make some sense ?
Yes Vijay it makes some sense The thing he want to prove was different but he may have choosen wrong example.
Please answer this question I Stand nude infront of your house is there any problem?

sunillathwal
June 15th, 2010, 02:27 PM
So, as per your mathematical analysis, murdering someone is necessary to remain Happy. I propose another analytical algorithm to remain happy.

Eg. Person X do not kills Y.

> X is happy ( because he didn't committed a crime )
> Y is happy ( because he is still surviving )
> Incident affects all of us and so all are happy that nobody got killed.

Net Result : Happiness

PS : I assume that all the people involed are married, having families, many siblings and relatives ....... means all strings attached.


Make some sense ?

No, it does not make much sense to me!! :D

My last post was a reply to the seema´s post regarding the personal freedom and socity norms. Though I was indulging in what people call "reductio ad absurdum" but my point was sincere.

Anyway, continuing in same vein: my conclusion stated ´.... should be allowed.´ NOT the ´is a must for happiness...´. i.e, one of the options not the ONLY option!
I mean: yes, not-murdering bring happiness and (as we proved earlier) so does murdering. Hence, putting someone in jail for his/her act of achieving some happiness (read murder) seems total absurd to me.

Let me reprahse it: ¨Murdering should NOT be criticized/ frowned upon/ discouraged as it does NOT harm anybody else or society in large. What happens between two people is their personal bussiness.¨

[..and of course this conclusion is solely derived from the statement that marrying in same village should be allowed, should NOT be subjected to any criticisim as it does NOT harm anybody else or society in large rather gives happiness to the couple.]

vijay
June 15th, 2010, 02:36 PM
Yes Vijay it makes some sense The thing he want to prove was different but he may have choosen wrong example.
Please answer this question I Stand nude infront of your house is there any problem?

Rakesh, if Sunil have chosen wrong example then your example is totally absurd one.

rakeshsehrawat
June 15th, 2010, 02:40 PM
Rakesh, if Sunil have chosen wrong example then your example is totally absurd one.

That was not example that was question and needs answer not comments

vijay
June 15th, 2010, 02:41 PM
No, it does not make much sense to me!! :D

My last post was a reply to the seema´s post regarding the personal freedom and socity norms. Though I was indulging in what people call "reductio ad absurdum" but my point was sincere.

Anyway, continuing in same vein: my conclusion stated ´.... should be allowed.´ ´NOTis a must for happiness...´. i.e, one of the options not the ONLY option!
I mean: yes, not-murdering bring happiness and (as we proved) so does murdering. Hence, putting someone in jail for his/her act of achieving some happiness (read murder) seems total absurd to me.

Let me reprahse it: ¨Murdering should NOT be criticized/ frowned upon/ discouraged as it does NOT harm anybody else or society in large. What happens between two people is their personal bussiness.¨

[..and of course this conclusion is solely derived from the statement that marrying in same village should be allowed, should NOT be subjected to any criticisim as it does NOT harm anybody else or society in large rather gives happiness to the couple.]

Somebody allows his/her kid to marry in same gotra or not, is strictly someone's personal business. But, it doesn't remain a personal matter when someone kills somebody, for happiness or whatever other reasons.

sunillathwal
June 15th, 2010, 02:45 PM
Somebody allows his/her kid to marry in same gotra or not is strictly someone's personal business. But, it doesn't remain a personal matter when someone kills somebody, for happiness or whatever other reasons.
... and why is that, Vijay?

vijay
June 15th, 2010, 02:48 PM
... and why is that, Vijay?

Because Killing someone is a crime.
Now, i suppose that i should not expected to answer the stupid questions like why soldiers do this professionally.

rakeshsehrawat
June 15th, 2010, 02:50 PM
Because Killing someone is a crime.
Now, i suppose that i should not expected to answer the stupid questions like why soldiers do this professionally.
Why it is crime?

sunillathwal
June 15th, 2010, 02:53 PM
... and as i said earlier i am just extraploting the ´personal freedom` logic to ridiculous proportions. I do not literly mean ´murder´.

Very easily, i can put forward numerous examples where by above stated logic, court laws are abusrd. eg: A couple kissing on the road, all the sub-section of HMA, etc.

vijay
June 15th, 2010, 02:54 PM
Why it is crime?

Good question.
Consult a good lawyer to get a detailed list of the acts which falls under Criminal activities.

vijay
June 15th, 2010, 02:58 PM
... and as i said earlier i am just extraploting the ´personal freedom` logic to ridiculous proportions. I do not literly mean ´murder´.

Very easily, i can put forward numerous examples where by above stated logic, court laws are abusrd. eg: A couple kissing on the road, all the sub-section of HMA, etc.

The area of personal freedom ends where it touches the boundaries of prohibited acts defined by the Law.

Personally, You have every right to convince yourself that this whole world is absurd but that doesn't prove it so.

rakeshsehrawat
June 15th, 2010, 02:59 PM
Good question.
Consult a good lawyer to get a detailed list of the acts which falls under Criminal activities.

Lawyer ke batawega tanne nahi bera?
Kyonki Aisa kanoon ki kitab mein likha hai aur kanoon ki kitab mein isliye aisa likha hai ki samaj ise galt manta hai.
Par dikkat to yaa e hai ki tum samaj ko nahi mante.jab tum samaj ko nahi mante to fir uske banaye kanoon sahi kaise hue?

sunillathwal
June 15th, 2010, 03:02 PM
Because Killing someone is a crime.
Now, i suppose that i should not expected to answer the stupid questions like why soldiers do this professionally.

Vijay, read my first post once again... my preposition. My entire arguement was based on certain assumption (seema´s post reply) and conclusion was that Court laws are abusrd (or Killing is not a crime).
You can NOT start your arguement by the Conclusion.

sunillathwal
June 15th, 2010, 03:07 PM
The area of personal freedom ends where it touches the boundaries of prohibited acts defined by the Law.

Personally, You have every right to convince yourself that this whole world is absurd but that doesn't prove it so.

If your laws are ABSOLUTE then why there have been so many amendments in law? Think about that.

vijay
June 15th, 2010, 03:12 PM
Vijay, read my first post once again... my preposition. My entire arguement was based on certain assumption (seema´s post reply) and conclusion was that Court laws are abusrd (or Killing is not a crime).
You can NOT start your arguement by the Conclusion.

How can you reach at the conclusion on the basis of mere assumptions but without arguments ?

vijay
June 15th, 2010, 03:16 PM
If your laws are ABSOLUTE then why there have been so many amendments in law? Think about that.

Its not my Laws but it is Constitution of India.
You can try to amend it by making honor killing a legal act or any other desirable amendments.

But until then killing someone is a crime.

sunillathwal
June 15th, 2010, 03:35 PM
Its not my Laws but it is Constitution of India.
You can try to amend it by making honor killing a legal act or any other desirable amendments.

But until then killing someone is a crime.

ahhhh same crapp again. Never mind.

ravinderjeet
June 15th, 2010, 03:36 PM
Yes Vijay it makes some sense The thing he want to prove was different but he may have choosen wrong example.
Please answer this question I Stand nude infront of your house is there any problem?

yo naa maaney , chaahey kimmey kah le,vijay bhai jisse maanas bhot kam pedaa hoyaa karein,inney sambhaal kein kissey measuem me dharwaa do, surakhsit naa koye iney thaa le gaa tph,ke khoo -khaa gaa to ,fer itnaa budhimaan paraani paawe ni gaa.

vijay
June 15th, 2010, 03:41 PM
ahhhh same crapp again. Never mind.

Sure it is.

kapdal
June 15th, 2010, 06:26 PM
no limit to personal freedom until and unless it affects other people significantly. tell me what's wrong in it? if my neigbour (or my own kid whn i have one lol) marries in same gotra, how does it hram me or anybody else.

Society, law and morals, by definition, put limits on personal freedoms as much as they guarantee them. How it affects other people is only one of the considerations, but NOT the only consideration. If we forget law of the land and talk about justice from first principles, then principle of greatest good of greatest numbers AS WELL AS principle of upholding the fundamental rights of any minority are important.

What you consider as insignificant may be significant to others and vice-versa. For example, someone may kill an animal sacred to a particular community during that community's festive occasion. This may be insiginificant to the members of the community who are atheist. But the religious members would be affected very siginificantly. In matters of faith, there is no objectivity. And hence laws pertaining to personal domains are hardly objective. A community majority may decide that their greatest good is in having a particular law and the rebellious minority usually has to fall in line. It doesn't matter who is right.

Anyways, personally I believe that a law on this matter is going to be ineffective; it can merely give ego massage to some and political opportunity to others. Already discussed at length.

ravichaudhary
June 28th, 2010, 05:40 PM
One should not of necessity, assume that Ms Sindhu believes in what she writes.

Being a journalist by profession, it is her task ( as she sees it)to ask and/or be provocative, to see what reaction arises.

To appreciate ones culture and community, one has to become educated/aware!

To do that, one should familiarize oneself with our historical traditions. A good place to start is to read the extensive material here and the yahoo Jat history group.

Ms Sindhu poses an important question, which deserves reflection.

Kapil puts the parameters well.

For the rest of us, perhaps we need to study our traditions and their history.

Assuredly, it is unlikely that this is the first time such discussion has happened in the Jat community.

It will not, and should not be the last.

We need people like Seema Sindhu

Ravi Chaudhary

ssindhu
July 3rd, 2010, 08:35 PM
the khap/gotra issue has become more confusing than ever before... more so, by the media and by the non existant HR skills of our fellow JAT representatives who have failed, time and again, to put the matter across the public in a meaningful way. from the various TV episodes on the matter, i learnt that those presenting the show haven't got an iota of knowledge of JAT customs and traditions... what more they can't even pronounce the word "khaap" phonetically correct.

to my observation, i found them confused on two separate issue's : no.1 khap diktats/murders and no.2 gotra issue's. a confused amalgamation on the two issue's with improper ratiocination deriving to illogical conclusions is making a mockery of our rich customs and traditions. eventually leading to the emergence of various other issue's within the issue, thereby making the situation even more worse.

it is highly deplorable to see that those who haven't got the faintest idea of the social fabric of village life are becoming the spokesperson of the media... honestly, i feel like kicking hard on their butts.

these pseudo intellectuals in control of media house from the confines of their plush air-conditioned studios have allegedly said that the ostracism of those found guilty of "within gotra" marriage as inhuman and barbarous.

mr. v.p. singh has rightly pointed out in one of his previous post that - "our society has been proscribing and ostracizing all those dissidents, who were found to be indulging in the irresponsible acts of skirting the bounds of civility and societal norms... and that has been the best deterrent so far".

would appreciate your views on the poll. imo and as rightly pointed out by jagmohan sir in one of his earlier posts... "that we must not allow these pseudo intellectuals who control the media houses to go beyond a certain point in Khap and now our custom/tradition bashing".


have you ever heard of any case of khaps ostrasizing a father/uncle or father/brother-in-law who has raped their daughter or daughter/sister-in-law? or say killing such ppl? no. that they leave to court of law in case it gets reported. but they themselves are taking the law in hand for same gotra marriage. who the hell they are

sjakhars
July 3rd, 2010, 09:38 PM
How could I miss this thread for so long, a treat to read. I am amazed to see the opinion of people who are specialist in everything, constitution, political science, Physics, Biology, mathematics, Chemistry and what not. Jatland is privileged to have them here.

British constitution ke baare me ek baat padhi thi political science me, agar wo aap logon ki samajh me aa jaye to mujhe lagta hai ye jo samaj aur kanoon ki baatein hain wo thodi saral ho jayengi. Angrezi kamjor hai isliye hindi me likh raha hoon.

"British sanvidhan parampara aur sanyog ka shishu hai."

Remember that British constitution is one of the oldest constitution.

ab aap log pata laga lo kanoon kahan se aaya hai?

sjakhars
July 3rd, 2010, 09:44 PM
Second question I want to raise is to know if a marriage is only a personal affair or a social institution?
In my opinion, it is a social institution before it is a personal affair, at least in Indian society. It is said that marriage is a relation between two families not merely a relation between two individuals.

Rest, there are many people here who are more intelligent here than me and I mean it. I am learning a lot nowadays.

Fateh
July 4th, 2010, 03:10 AM
Second question I want to raise is to know if a marriage is only a personal affair or a social institution?
In my opinion, it is a social institution before it is a personal affair, at least in Indian society. It is said that marriage is a relation between two families not merely a relation between two individuals.

Rest, there are many people here who are more intelligent here than me and I mean it. I am learning a lot nowadays.

Marriage, no doubt, is a voluntory union of one man with one woman to the exclusion of all others,alien it is not law. it is a contract & sanskara, it is a legal relation involving matters of status and title of persons. Marriage is the very foundation of civil society. The relations once formed, the law steps in and holds the parties to various obligations and liabilities. It is an institution in the maintenance of which the public is deeply interested, without which there would be neither civilisation nor progress. It creats mutual rights & obligations & confirms status. Ofcourse it is social institution, because it is the base/the very foundation of the society but certain matters in this institution are totally personal. regards
Now Question of ostrasize---SUCH PEOPLE WHO DONOT FOLLOW SOCIETY NORMS, THEY HAVE NO RIGHT TO BE PART OF THAT SOCIETY, but the decision should be that entire samaj will have no connection with such couple because the unsuitable law of the land, immature, ill informed, biased & greedy media, our corrupt executive & blined judiciary has to be kept in view. regards

Arvindc
July 4th, 2010, 08:03 AM
have you ever heard of any case of khaps ostrasizing a father/uncle or father/brother-in-law who has raped their daughter or daughter/sister-in-law? or say killing such ppl? no. that they leave to court of law in case it gets reported. but they themselves are taking the law in hand for same gotra marriage. who the hell they are

That's one more point in favour of the demand for amendement of the HMA. Once the HMA is amended accordingly, I am sure the khaps would leave the cases of same gotra marriage to the courts.

ravichaudhary
July 4th, 2010, 08:49 AM
have you ever heard of any case of khaps ostrasizing a father/uncle or father/brother-in-law who has raped their daughter or daughter/sister-in-law? or say killing such ppl? no. that they leave to court of law in case it gets reported. but they themselves are taking the law in hand for same gotra marriage. who the hell they are

It would be wise to look into Khap panchyat decisions on items like this.

You might just be pleasantly surprised.

It is not a good idea to simply throw stones at random

What you are implying that Khaps support men rapoing their daughters!


When I suggested to you that read up on the history of your community I meant that.


If you had read up, you would have found that the Jat Khaps made and dispensed law. They were known for their wise decisions.

Everyone in their area followed their Law- all communities.

This went on for over 1500 years- Do you seriously think an institution could last that long , without having something going for it?

Ravi Chaudhary




Ravi Chaudhary

singhvp
July 4th, 2010, 08:58 AM
How could I miss this thread for so long, a treat to read. I am amazed to see the opinion of people who are specialist in everything, constitution, political science, Physics, Biology, mathematics, Chemistry and what not. Jatland is privileged to have them here.

British constitution ke baare me ek baat padhi thi political science me, agar wo aap logon ki samajh me aa jaye to mujhe lagta hai ye jo samaj aur kanoon ki baatein hain wo thodi saral ho jayengi. Angrezi kamjor hai isliye hindi me likh raha hoon.

"British sanvidhan parampara aur sanyog ka shishu hai."

Remember that British constitution is one of the oldest constitution.

ab aap log pata laga lo kanoon kahan se aaya hai?

Jakhar ji,

Societal behaviour revolves around the three concepts thesis, anti-thesis and synthesis. If history books are to be believed, there has never been a consensus in any society on any issue concerning traditions and customs or anything else. That is why there have been social upheavals in almost all the countries in every epoch. Dissensions are natural and should be accommodated with a spirit of brotherhood and positivity. The problem is that we -Jats - are least tolerant to each other's opinion and make it a point not to be flexible. Ultimately, we have to put our daggers aside and arrive at a synthesized opinion but in the process a lot of damage to the spirit of brotherhood will already be done.

ssindhu
July 4th, 2010, 12:01 PM
It would be wise to look into Khap panchyat decisions on items like this.

You might just be pleasantly surprised.

It is not a good idea to simply throw stones at random

What you are implying that Khaps support men rapoing their daughters!


When I suggested to you that read up on the history of your community I meant that.


If you had read up, you would have found that the Jat Khaps made and dispensed law. They were known for their wise decisions.

Everyone in their area followed their Law- all communities.

This went on for over 1500 years- Do you seriously think an institution could last that long , without having something going for it?

Ravi Chaudhary




Ravi Chaudhary

if khaps are wise, i wish nt to b wise

Fateh
July 4th, 2010, 05:01 PM
Jakhar ji,

Societal behaviour revolves around the three concepts thesis, anti-thesis and synthesis. If history books are to be believed, there has never been a consensus in any society on any issue concerning traditions and customs or anything else. That is why there have been social upheavals in almost all the countries in every epoch. Dissensions are natural and should be accommodated with a spirit of brotherhood and positivity. The problem is that we -Jats - are least tolerant to each other's opinion and make it a point not to be flexible. Ultimately, we have to put our daggers aside and arrive at a synthesized opinion but in the process a lot of damage to the spirit of brotherhood will already be done.



true, well said, education is the answer, including the knowledge of History. regards

sjakhars
July 4th, 2010, 05:41 PM
I agree VP Singh Ji. Societal behavior can not be defined in a narrow concept. My reply was in answer to some posts where it was said that the Constitution is absolute. I wanted to say that the constitution is derrived from traditions, customs and rituals, it was not brought from extra-terrestrial places. That is where the above statement about British Constitution stands tall.

I wanted to say that "Human being is a social animal". The age old saying about human behavior. If people change it to "Human being is a legal animal", that's where I have a problem. The society makes the constitution not the constitution makes the society. Everything is not legal and illegal in this world. If you make it a legal world than you have to write each and verey aspect of human behavior in the constitution. Like Rakesh Ji said If a person is walking naked on the road, why anyone should have a problem as the person is legally free to walk and he has paid for the road in form of taxes like all others. Its his right to wear/not wear the clothes as he enjoys the freedom of life and he feels more free and happy without clothes, if anyone has a problem with it he can clsoe his eyes.

British constitution is nothing but a compilation of traditions which are being practised for 1000s of years and British constitution is the oldest one. Indian constitution has borrowed most of its contents from British, American, Canadian and Japanese and may be some other constitutions.

Coming to the subject of the thread, "samajik bahishkar" has been in our society for time unknown. It is done at individual level and also at group level. If a group of people do not want "roti aur beti ka rishta" with a particular person, the land of law cannot force that group to have the same with the said person. It's like my familiy (In a broader perspective where uncles, aunts, cousins are included) do not want to have relation with any one, the law can not force us. The same is called "samajik bahishkar". A village is considered a larger family that's is why "samajik bahishkar" is practisable in villages. If a person does not follow the family's old age traditions and customs, the family has a right to stop any relation with him/her.

I have never supported honor-killing but I am extremely against the same gotra marriage.



Jakhar ji,

Societal behaviour revolves around the three concepts thesis, anti-thesis and synthesis. If history books are to be believed, there has never been a consensus in any society on any issue concerning traditions and customs or anything else. That is why there have been social upheavals in almost all the countries in every epoch. Dissensions are natural and should be accommodated with a spirit of brotherhood and positivity. The problem is that we -Jats - are least tolerant to each other's opinion and make it a point not to be flexible. Ultimately, we have to put our daggers aside and arrive at a synthesized opinion but in the process a lot of damage to the spirit of brotherhood will already be done.

ravinderjeet
July 4th, 2010, 05:47 PM
if khaps are wise, i wish nt to b wise

you are allready not a wise person.

singhvp
July 4th, 2010, 07:46 PM
I agree VP Singh Ji. Societal behavior can not be defined in a narrow concept. My reply was in answer to some posts where it was said that the Constitution is absolute. I wanted to say that the constitution is derrived from traditions, customs and rituals, it was not brought from extra-terrestrial places. That is where the above statement about British Constitution stands tall.

I wanted to say that "Human being is a social animal". The age old saying about human behavior. If people change it to "Human being is a legal animal", that's where I have a problem. The society makes the constitution not the constitution makes the society. Everything is not legal and illegal in this world. If you make it a legal world than you have to write each and verey aspect of human behavior in the constitution. Like Rakesh Ji said If a person is walking naked on the road, why anyone should have a problem as the person is legally free to walk and he has paid for the road in form of taxes like all others. Its his right to wear/not wear the clothes as he enjoys the freedom of life and he feels more free and happy without clothes, if anyone has a problem with it he can clsoe his eyes.

British constitution is nothing but a compilation of traditions which are being practised for 1000s of years and British constitution is the oldest one. Indian constitution has borrowed most of its contents from British, American, Canadian and Japanese and may be some other constitutions.

Coming to the subject of the thread, "samajik bahishkar" has been in our society for time unknown. It is done at individual level and also at group level. If a group of people do not want "roti aur beti ka rishta" with a particular person, the land of law cannot force that group to have the same with the said person. It's like my familiy (In a broader perspective where uncles, aunts, cousins are included) do not want to have relation with any one, the law can not force us. The same is called "samajik bahishkar". A village is considered a larger family that's is why "samajik bahishkar" is practisable in villages. If a person does not follow the family's old age traditions and customs, the family has a right to stop any relation with him/her.

I have never supported honor-killing but I am extremely against the same gotra marriage.

An excellent and well moderated articulation Jakhar ji. Both - the social customs as well as the law of the land - are supplement and complement to each other for making the living in a particular society harmonious and disciplined. A complete synchronization and balancing between these social tools is essential to avoid antagonism owing to clash of interests and opinions.

Unquestionably, if an individual’s freedom and acts have an adverse bearing on the lives of his/her neighbours, they have a right to boycott him/her. But their reaction should be spontaneous and within the parameters of established law and not orchestrated by a few self-seekers who try to hijack such issues for their personal aggrandizement. There should be complete transparency, widest possible participation by the stake-holders and democracy in such decisions.

As far as walking nude on street is concerned, I am sure there must be some laws against obscenity in public places for prosecution of such offenders as mentioned by you in your post.

atamjeet78
July 4th, 2010, 08:28 PM
But their reaction should be spontaneous and within the parameters of established law and not orchestrated by a few self-seekers who try to hijack such issues for their personal aggrandizement.
VPSinghji
Those few self-seekers are 64% of jatlanders.

sjakhars
July 4th, 2010, 10:11 PM
VP Singh Ji, thank you very much for the post. I believe in straight questions and answers. I do not want to be diplomatic or politically correct but at the same time I try not to be rude, try not to make any personal comment at any one. I know people like diplomatic way of discussion but straightforwardness is a better way in my book.

Human behavior can not be 100% objective, there is always a portion which is driven by subjective traits. Personal aggrandizement (It took me a while though to find the meaning of this word, had to consult the dictionary) can be defined in many aspects I suppose. Lets say a person sees someone stealing something from somewhere, a good citizen will inform the police. The informer thinks he fulfilled his duty but the thief thinks otherwise, he takes it as personal harm as you have seen in present day life. The offender (Not all may be) tries to take revenge of this. So it depends how a person perceives any action as in above example, the offender thinks that the informed must have a personal gain here otherwise why he should inform the police. Here we can not say that the offender has got freedom of life so he can do anything and later he can prove it his personal deed.

My above argument is about social and legal norms. In my opinion, social traditions, customs and moral values form a base for any kind of law. The law can not be derived from vacuum. I again reiterate that the laws/constitution are derived from social and moral values.

The age old question of chicken first or egg first is not applicable here. Certainly I believe that the social customs/traditions and moral values existed long before the legal system and the constitutions.


An excellent and well moderated articulation Jakhar ji. Both - the social customs as well as the law of the land - are supplement and complement to each other for making the living in a particular society harmonious and disciplined. A complete synchronization and balancing between these social tools is essential to avoid antagonism owing to clash of interests and opinions.

Unquestionably, if an individual’s freedom and acts have an adverse bearing on the lives of his/her neighbours, they have a right to boycott him/her. But their reaction should be spontaneous and within the parameters of established law and not orchestrated by a few self-seekers who try to hijack such issues for their personal aggrandizement. There should be complete transparency, widest possible participation by the stake-holders and democracy in such decisions.

As far as walking nude on street is concerned, I am sure there must be some laws against obscenity in public places for prosecution of such offenders as mentioned by you in your post.

hemanthooda
July 4th, 2010, 11:55 PM
Teen couple killed in Haryana

http://www.hindustantimes.com/News-Feed/haryana/Teen-couple-killed-in-Haryana/Article1-567445.aspx

A teenaged boy and his girlfriend were found dead under mysterious circumstances in a Haryana village, prompting fears that yet another honour killing had been committed.
The bodies of Sham Mohammad, a Muslim, and Rina, a Hindu Jat, were found in the backyard of a government school at Smain village in Fatehabad district, 50 km from Hisar on Sunday morning.
Although an empty bottle of celphos tablets — a grain preservative often used to commit suicide — was found near the bodies, the police suspect foul play.
The bodies bear injuries caused by blunt and sharp weapons, indicating the possibility of murder, officials said.
“An autopsy will reveal whether they consumed celphos tablets or were murdered,” SP Jagwant Singh Lamba said.
Sham and Rina wanted to marry each other but their families were against the alliance. Last year, the two allegedly eloped from the village, but were found in a nearby village some days later.
The village panchayat then asked Sham to leave Smain, after which he shifted to Kadyan village in Punjab. But he was back in Smain recently to meet his parents.
“This is not suicide,” alleged Nanu Mohammad, an uncle of Sham. “Both Sham and Rina have been killed by Rina’s relatives.”

Fateh
July 5th, 2010, 06:51 AM
Teen couple killed in Haryana

http://www.hindustantimes.com/News-Feed/haryana/Teen-couple-killed-in-Haryana/Article1-567445.aspx

A teenaged boy and his girlfriend were found dead under mysterious circumstances in a Haryana village, prompting fears that yet another honour killing had been committed.
The bodies of Sham Mohammad, a Muslim, and Rina, a Hindu Jat, were found in the backyard of a government school at Smain village in Fatehabad district, 50 km from Hisar on Sunday morning.
Although an empty bottle of celphos tablets — a grain preservative often used to commit suicide — was found near the bodies, the police suspect foul play.
The bodies bear injuries caused by blunt and sharp weapons, indicating the possibility of murder, officials said.
“An autopsy will reveal whether they consumed celphos tablets or were murdered,” SP Jagwant Singh Lamba said.
Sham and Rina wanted to marry each other but their families were against the alliance. Last year, the two allegedly eloped from the village, but were found in a nearby village some days later.
The village panchayat then asked Sham to leave Smain, after which he shifted to Kadyan village in Punjab. But he was back in Smain recently to meet his parents.
“This is not suicide,” alleged Nanu Mohammad, an uncle of Sham. “Both Sham and Rina have been killed by Rina’s relatives.”

Look, I am not at all in favour of killing any body but here, it seems to me, the boy asked for his murder, once excused, was it must to come back to the village to put ghee on fire, I would like to ask the views of anti khap people as what they have to say here. regards

singhvp
July 5th, 2010, 08:40 AM
But their reaction should be spontaneous and within the parameters of established law and not orchestrated by a few self-seekers who try to hijack such issues for their personal aggrandizement.
VPSinghji
Those few self-seekers are 64% of jatlanders.

Atamjeet ji,

With due apology, I differ with your calculation. The number of self-seekers cannot be as high as 64%. Also, I have no reason and moral right to disbelieve that the reaction of 64% could be spontaneous on this issue. But at the same time the existence of a little percentage of self-seekers imposing themselves as the torch bearers, in pursuit of their personal ambition, cannot be dismissed in any movement. This is a universal truth. A healthy and critical debate on any issue is essential for the best to come out.

Arvindc
July 5th, 2010, 08:55 AM
In my opinion, social traditions, customs and moral values form a base for any kind of law. The law can not be derived from vacuum. I again reiterate that the laws/constitution are derived from social and moral values.

The age old question of chicken first or egg first is not applicable here. Certainly I believe that the social customs/traditions and moral values existed long before the legal system and the constitutions.

Exactly!!

The laws are meant to govern society. Society should decide how it wants to be governed (that is make laws).

Social customs/traditions and moral values are made by the society and hence, any law can not simply ignore them. The challenge that comes is that customs/traditions and moral values are different for different people. So law makers decide (based on some unknown criteria) which one of these, customs/traditions and moral values, gets into a law. May be we can take a look at the UK law, where it is totally based on what the society thinks rather then what the lawmakers think.

atamjeet78
July 6th, 2010, 07:25 PM
VPSinghji,
Those were not my calculation, it was the poll result on that day on this thread which today stands at 65.96%.

singhvp
July 6th, 2010, 07:42 PM
VPSinghji,

Those were not my calculation, it was the poll result on that day on this thread which today stands at 65.96%.

Atamjeet ji,

I respect majority opinion, my skepticism notwithstanding.

Regards

ssindhu
July 6th, 2010, 09:01 PM
It would be wise to look into Khap panchyat decisions on items like this.

You might just be pleasantly surprised.

It is not a good idea to simply throw stones at random

What you are implying that Khaps support men rapoing their daughters!


When I suggested to you that read up on the history of your community I meant that.


If you had read up, you would have found that the Jat Khaps made and dispensed law. They were known for their wise decisions.

Everyone in their area followed their Law- all communities.

This went on for over 1500 years- Do you seriously think an institution could last that long , without having something going for it?

Ravi Chaudhary




Ravi Chaudhary

dowry has surevived for more than 1500 years, but does it mean it has something good to it?

kapdal
July 6th, 2010, 09:30 PM
dowry has surevived for more than 1500 years, but does it mean it has something good to it?

Err..well...let me think. How do you ensure women get some property from their parents in a patriarchal society where the son inherits everything? That was the case for most of those 1500 years. Are you saying the daughters should have been short changed at the time of marriage; that here you go and you get nothing from your family, while your brother gets everything. I'd think most of the customs where daughters/sisters were given gifts on special occasions like marriage, peeliya, holi, diwali, etc. (diff. in diff. regions and communities) was a way of balancing things to an extent in a patriarchal society. Dowry is the present day abused form of this custom. I think the ideal way is to have equal property rights for all children and no dowry. The former exists on paper in law, but hardly practised. And there are draconian laws to stop dowry, yet the practise remains. Just shows you can't change society through laws, if the mindset of people doesn't change. And faffing about liberal ideas without understanding ground realities or the application of the ideas in a given context, is meaningless.

sunillathwal
July 6th, 2010, 10:09 PM
dowry has surevived for more than 1500 years, but does it mean it has something good to it?

Agreed with Kapil.

On a side note: If something 'bad' survived for a long time that does NOT mean anything that survives is BAD.

ravichaudhary
July 6th, 2010, 10:26 PM
dowry has surevived for more than 1500 years, but does it mean it has something good to it?

Dear Seema

This may sound a little repetitive to you.

Do please try and inform yourself of your community’s history and culture, before making random comments

Dowry or Dahej was a system practiced by many communities, in which at the time of the daughter getting married she was given her share of the inheritance.

In addition she would have other rights by custom, that on the time of the birth of her children, every year on various occasions, and at the time of her children getting married the mama would bring ‘ bhath’ or gifts.

The residual property, in the case of the Jats, land/cattle etc would stay with the sons.

Now if you get married, and you get your share at the time of marriage, what problem would you have?

Today, the dowry system is abused.

If you studied your community customs, you would have found that the Khap panchayats, passed resolutions and enforced them, to avoid dowry, and excessive spending on marriages


I know many cases, where the groom has marriage with Re 1 in dowry. I would like to see more.


I am personally anti- dowry, and for an equal share of the parents assets between the children, irrespective of gender.


Please try and educate yourself on our community’s history and culture.

Please try not to make these comments at random, which are unrelated to the main thread.


Regards

Ravi Chaudhary

hemanthooda
July 6th, 2010, 10:30 PM
Agreed with Kapil.

On a side note: If something 'bad' survived for a long time that does NOT mean anything that survives is BAD.

Off Topic but like to share what my Nana ji Used to say " Mangne aale ke naa toh chori byahni chahiye arr naa aap mangna chahiye"

Doest the funda of survival of fittest applies here???Just wondering Bro!!!!

kapdal
July 6th, 2010, 11:20 PM
Doest the funda of survival of fittest applies here???Just wondering Bro!!!!

No it doesn't. "Survival of fittest" was used by Darwin in a very specific biological context of evolution (has no connection with cultural, social or any other kind of evolution). Likes of Richard Dawkins have written on how the phrase has been liberally misused in a lot of places where it has no application.

By the way, even in the biological context, the phrase has a greater application at genetic level than at the level of full fledged organisms (man, tiger, sparrow, etc.). Basically referring to genes that are fittest to survive and reproduce in an environment. These could be BAD genes responsible for causing diseases. Now we are totally off topic...:)

hemanthooda
July 6th, 2010, 11:48 PM
No it doesn't. "Survival of fittest" was used by Darwin in a very specific biological context of evolution (has no connection with cultural, social or any other kind of evolution). Likes of Richard Dawkins have written on how the phrase has been liberally misused in a lot of places where it has no application.

By the way, even in the biological context, the phrase has a greater application at genetic level than at the level of full fledged organisms (man, tiger, sparrow, etc.). Basically referring to genes that are fittest to survive and reproduce in an environment. These could be BAD genes responsible for causing diseases. Now we are totally off topic...:)

May be relevant kapil coz Khaps are portrayed as Dracula(read animal) of society who sucks own kids & brothers/sisters Blood... :) err sorry off topic...lolz

vijay
July 7th, 2010, 12:05 AM
May be relevant kapil coz Khaps are portrayed as Dracula(read animal) of society who sucks own kids & brothers/sisters Blood... :) err sorry off topic...lolz

Should we start bashing at Bram Stoker ? :)

sunillathwal
July 7th, 2010, 01:01 AM
See the attached picture: only first two suggestions from google are relevant to Khaps and (no surprises) only thing associated with the khap is honor killing.

10291
Without any basis, some people (including some despicable Jats) have projected the khaps as murderous and barbric. Any news regarding khaps, even if it is unrelated to any 'crime' on their part, start with the introduction like "khaps, which are famous for honor killing and passing diktat against the youth who dare to fall in love, had a meeting..."

Only crime khaps can rightly be accuse of is 'being against the intra-village or intra-gotra marriages' not against the love marriage or responsible for honor-killings.

P.S. I understand that mentioning khaps and honor killings in same post (even if you are defending the khaps) actually harm the images of khaps!! (For aag lage, dhuan nahi uthta... most ppl believe it at some levels.)

Fateh
July 7th, 2010, 09:23 PM
See the attached picture: only first two suggestions from google are relevant to Khaps and (no surprises) only thing associated with the khap is honor killing.

10291
Without any basis, some people (including some despicable Jats) have projected the khaps as murderous and barbric. Any news regarding khaps, even if it is unrelated to any 'crime' on their part, start with the introduction like "khaps, which are famous for honor killing and passing diktat against the youth who dare to fall in love, had a meeting..."

Only crime khaps can rightly be accuse of is 'being against the intra-village or intra-gotra marriages' not against the love marriage or responsible for honor-killings.

P.S. I understand that mentioning khaps and honor killings in same post (even if you are defending the khaps) actually harm the images of khaps!! (For aag lage, dhuan nahi uthta... most ppl believe it at some levels.)

I fully agree with you brother, khap is being dragged in all such matters whether it is invoved or not, most of our own boys/girls so called journalists write unwanted views, cannot help it we can only request them & at the same time we have to be very careful while airing our views & countreing such negative views. regards

kirpal888
July 12th, 2010, 04:59 PM
sir with all regards to u but honestly i don't agree with u, bcoz the way u have made a scenario then all customs will go haywire & above all we will become like muslims where marrying cousin brothers and sisters is accepted norm. i m sorry to all liberalists b'coz i agree with decisions of revered khap panchayats as it is only social institution that is alive to observance of social norms that were endemic to our society from times immemorial.

narendersingh
October 19th, 2010, 10:25 PM
Khaps have there old tested tradition and norms,tested through time.Today,s culture is changing and so called modernites can not digest the sytem prevailing.Nothing is being on 365 of kashmir,But all after the khaps.Khaps system was adopted by Maharaj Harsh Vardhan.The system is clear but it is the way how we grasp and achieve . I will say:

Khaap pratha nahee hai buree
Bakee biradaree badwaa rahee dooree
Meel baithkar sansodhan hai zaroori
Jo kamee hai usey kar do poori
Sanghathan kee vyavthaa thee
Kuchh nahee bigra abhee
Soch vichar karo sabhi
Agey naa hogaa kabhi

vdhillon
December 5th, 2010, 04:38 PM
science can't override personal freedom. anything which doesn't harm a third person is not harmful for the society and is harmful only for the individuials. and if the individuals are ok with carrying on the harms, the society shouldn't intervene. believe me hooda nad navin jindal won't kill their kids if they marry within the same caste if they chose to. they will only disown like bhajanlal disowned his son, taht too for political reasons. people should but politicain's thoughts. same gotra marriages happen in many other communities like punjabi, south india. what problems you see in their offsprings?

BINGO ... You nailed it. This answers many other threads on inter-caste marriages, honor killings, gay GLBT, same gotra marriages, incestous relationships, etc. छोरी तन्ने तो इक लुहार आली ठोक दी

Baki nu e seeng uljha rahe sein. Yah moderen aur progressive hone ka avran audh kar under se dakiyanoosi hain.

vdhillon
December 5th, 2010, 04:55 PM
Seema ji kyon do ghara ka naas karo ho apne ladke aur ladki ki hi shadi karwa do do ghara ki jagah ek ghar mein e sadh jagi
And if you are not married you do it

I think they are talking about you
http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?22478-Is-Seema-ji-being-banned-justified

http://www.jatland.com/forums/showth...ustified/page2


@Seema: if you are still reading this as a non-member. Good on ya girl. Take stand, be the agent of change. Do not be cowed by ppl's adopting paternalistic or condescending view. You can make a difference, if not more, than at least to your own kids lives. You can have your own definition of being a Jat, you do not need to conform to and seek approval from Jat-taliban to be a jat. Salute to your courage and proud of you for having courage to question the basic assumptions.

vdhillon
December 5th, 2010, 05:59 PM
PART-1 of 3:

I will summarize my response to the whole thread thus far in 3 parts

It summarizes
- my key learnings (areas that enhanced my knowledge),
- key points by others
- my own arugments



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POST-1: Why Discuss Topics Related to Small Number of Cases in Jat Samaj?

We are simply wasting our energy and time on an issue which is virtually non-existent. Coming generations will define their future according to their conveniences in the prevailing circumstances. If they will find the prevailing customs relevant, they will automatically adopt, if not they will reject at any cost and will find the loopholes. It is practically very difficult to constantly monitor and meticulously enforce a social boycott. These kind of boycotts are fluid in nature and not long-lasting. In our society, it is not very difficult to bribe the people. Even one bottle of whisky is enough to buy the loyalty of a Panchayat Member or a group member to ease the restrictions on a censured family. In some cases, the Panchayats/social congregations would themselves exonerate the convicted family at the time of Panchayat election if the family has substantial votes.


Vishal's REPLY TO POST-1

COMMENT-1: Additional and Unintended Benefits Accruing to JAT Society from Discussing Topics Impacting Small Number of Cases

[There may be few cases of same gotra marriages. it is still worth discussing as there are many unintended benefits or byproducts e.g.
1. if allows us to see rot in khap system,
2. challenges our inability to discuss taboo subjects,
3. forces us to rethink about creation of more liberal and mature and self confident society that is not afraid of self-critic and self review, etc.



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POST-2; Change is Constant and It Happens Only Gradually, If not Gradual Its CAOS

Marriage within gotra

As mentioned earlier there is only one thing permanent and that is "Change"

How hard we may try but we wont be able to beat it. Over the years we have changed our profession have changed, eating habbits have changed our clothes have changed. So there will be change for sure.
I am open to change but it should be gradual. Change should not happen overnight b'cos overnight changes are distructive. We can compare overnight changes with earthquake thats a change in a moment and we know what happens after that.... "CHAOS".
As community stands today we are not ready for marriage within same gotra nor with in mothers gotra. I personnaly dont favour dadi and nani gotra too.
But now a days nanni kanni karne lagge hain. May be dadi's gotra will be sidelined too .
But it should be slow n steady


Vishal's REPLY TO POST-2

Agree, customs, traditions, morals and societal norms continue to change and evolve to meet the new challenges being thrown on the society.


COMMENT-2: Its not only about the 'change' being 'Constant' but also about 'How We Harness It'
A more liberal and progressive society makes most of them, other may isolate themselves and in the process convert themselves into disconnected and disadvantaged group.


COMMENT-3: Change sometimes can be sudden and beneficial in medium to long-term
Reform and evolution is
- continuous and
- mostly gradual (with ongoing dialogue with stakeholders and creating awareness (not just academic education)) and
- sometimes sudden process but not always bad or negative (new path breaking technology, drastic events e.g. forced conversion of entire scoiety, or forced migration to new land due to various reasons). Change sometimes can be sudden and beneficial in medium to long-term e.g. Jews of america, Industrial or Telcomm or Media or Internet revolutions.

vdhillon
December 5th, 2010, 07:25 PM
PART-2 of 3

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POST-3: A Gotra has common parentage and same gene pool, Bad medical consequences of same gotra procreation


Gotra is a unified common parentage social organization spread over in various states. This parentage may be of thousands of years old. Its affects, social code of conduct and behavior remains fresh and alive so long people take pride in their parentage.

The media lays stress on individual freedom of the marriage in respective relation even the marriage in same gotra but media forget the society generated from common parentage is also struggling to maintain the purity of genomes. Therefore “Sagotra” identifies itself with “Sahpind” mentioned in the Manu Smriti. Hindu marriage act avoids ‘SahPind’ marriage and is silent on “Sahgotra”marriage but to my mind ‘sahgotra’ and ‘sahpind’ are synonyms to each other, may be they are separate by hundreds of generation, in that case our social code of conduct based on ‘Manu Smriti’ allows such marriages after completion of ‘Sahpind/Sahgotra’ cycle of hundred generation as by the time our genomes could have changed. Sahgotra is a genetic map with variable degree of genomes.

Keeping the above scientific view of marriage in the Hindu society, some youth who don’t have the knowledge as described above may indulge in marriages which are incestuous which bound to result into genetic disorder in their coming generation. The Khap has reason and pronounce their verdict amounting to death sentences but in my view panchants shouldn’t reach to the conclusion while other options are available which are
a) dissolve the marriage
b) outcast the offender
c) Impose heavy financial punishment
d) exile them

But one can understand the desperation of Panchayat as they consider it as stigma on the honor of their community. The reasons attributed for such marriages can be

a) lack of family value and pride
b) modern education where in moral ethics don’t have any place
c) double standard behavior of parents in family
d) Standard of the family and social values has reduced drastically.
e) Western education and culture & media is to be blamed (but in western societies too there are number of societies who follow the genetic social order strictly.

Indian media is semi literate and therefore arguments on such sensitive issue don’t stand to the core of the issue whereas the effect is very powerful and thereby the influence on the masses is very wrong.

Society changes from time to time. Same gotra marriages are a kind of resurgence/revolution against the strict code of conduct but this is only due to as youth don’t understand the fine aspect and benefit of the social rules established thousands of years earlier. The youth of today failed to appreciate the purity of their values but remain misguided and confused by half digested knowledge published in various articles. Therefore in my point of view, it is the time that wise man of the society/community must discuss the social disorder and challenges taking place in the society. Efforts should be made to highlight the importance of social code of conducts. We must discourage sahgotra/sahpind marriages instead should allow the youth to go for inter cast marriage in Hindu society.


Vishal's REPLY TO POST-3


COMMENT-4: Racial Purity Does not Exist - based on DNA
Those claiming racial purity are making incorrect uninformed statements without taking long term and wholistic view.

- ManuSmriti is not Scientific (in the cintext fo your argument)
You are describing a theocratic view (manusmriti) using Scientific terminology (gene pool and DNA). Manu samriti does not substantiate scientific or genetic view.

- Purity of race does not exist. Latest research and DNA testing proves that each one of has varying amount of african, white, asian/orietntal and Indian gene pool. All races have varying amount of genes from other race. There is no scientific evidence of racial purity unless you are talking about a yet to be discovered tribe isolated for few thousand years.


COMMENT-5: Shredding the myth of Racial Purity based on history
- In the 4billion years history of earth, homosapien evolved only 20 or 30 thousand years ago.

- Within that time frame, earliest known reference to origin of jats is to Scythians and Massagetes of 3000 thousand years ago or aryans of 3000 to 4000 years ago (depending on which view you accept),

- with later reference to Jat kingdoms (yodhaya's inscriptions, etc) between 3rd BC to 6th AD (some argue Jats or Jarta have a diff meaning in those inscriptions, not Jats)

- More precise and trackable documentedd evidence about jats (as we know them today) exists only for last 1000 years or so.

- Even within those 1000 years it has been proven that jats, rajput of s and gurjars have similar or same origin

- jats, rajputs and gurjars may have similar origin but they themselves are admixture of various successive waves of invaders mixing with each other or local aryans absorbing those waves of invaders. This proves that their origin is not homogeneous. Hence, its futile to claim purity of race.



COMMENT-6: Genes mutate on average every 16th generation, same gotra genes will diversify after every 16 generation

- Assuming there is purity fo Jat race (which does not exist as demonstrated above), scientific research has proven that on average genes significantly mutate every 16th generation.

- Even if two people are related to same gotra (parentage), they will share some common gene (50% in first generation) and will get diluted with each successive generation because mother/father will be from diff gene pool/gotra e.g. first generation share 50% gene with common ancestor, 2nd generation will share 25% gene with common ancestor, 3rd generation will share 12.5% gene with common ancestor, and so on.

- More elapsed generation (number of generation, since common parentage), number of genes shared by two people will continue to reduce

- Within same gene pool, genes mutate every 16th generation, Making people genetically even more different (than simple generation-by-generation dilution of gene pool) from each other every 16th generation due to dramatic leap.


CONCLUSION-1: Those who use racial purity argument against same gotra marriages or inter caste marriages, their argument has been convincingly refuted from various perspectives (Scientific DNA & GENES Studies, Documented and verifiable HISTORY)



COMMENT-7: Demystifying the Myth - Potential Medical problems for marrying into same gene pool - not as profound as you think
Agreed that marriages in same gene pool may lead to birth defects, etc.
In case of an old gotra, say Dhillon is 1000+ yrs old gotra where at least 60+ 16th generation mutations have happened, I as a Dhillon, am very likely to have genetic similarity (comparative, remember genetic diff between human and chimps is only 2%, genetic diff between races and gotra etc is most likely 0.000XXX%) with another Dhillon who shared an ancestors say 100 or 200 yrs ago.
Hence, medical problems (thalassemia, etc) wont have much impact due to
(a) diluted, and
(b) mutated gene
despite having same gotra.



COMMENT-8: Freedom of Choice and Informed Decision making
Continuing the previous example of two Dhillon separated by 100 or 200 or 1000years who were to procreate

- their shared genes are already diluted and mutated.

- secondly, latest medical technology allows them to run DNA testing to see if their offspring will be at risk or not. If not at risk then medically or scientifically there is nothing that prevents them from procreation.


COMMENT-9: Those who use the scientific/medical argument against same gotra marriage, must accept that such couples can undertake medical test and they can make informed choice
(a) mostly likely no negative medical impact or

(b) if there is potential risk then they can take rpeventative measures e.g. medication, or

(c) no preventative measures exist then they can at least make an informed choice (freedom of choice of consenting adults, even if ostracised by society - this aspect discussed later) to procreate or not (note the choice of words, i didnt say marriage, to procreate marriage is not needed, im not against two adults in live in relationship or just coming together to procreate, i will accept it if my kids do it)


COMMENT-10: Those with resources, can chose to migrate to other societies where they wont be ostracised, its up to individuals to chose, no up to the society to kill them.

vdhillon
December 5th, 2010, 07:30 PM
Part-3 of 3


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POST-4: Ostracization is from society.



Dear Sir
Ostracization is from society.

In cities there is already no society. People get togeather from a sector or apartments of same building and call themselves is society that doesn't mean society. Society is circle which comes to you in times of joy(marriege or some other function) or Sorrow(Someone's death or accident). In villages it was like that in good or bad times of a person people were togeather.

Jats gaon se hi hain city mein bas gaye to kya hua aaj bhi jyadatar apne dah sanskar ke liye apne gaon ki keh ke jate hain.Aaj aap amrika mein bas gaye to aap amriki thode ho jaoge?


Vishal's REPLY TO POST-4

incorrect to say cities do not have society. They do have society but differ from villages:
- an urban society is more hetrogenous comapred to homogenous rural society
- an urban society is more conducive to change
- an urban society is more mobile

Sanskar etc are chaning rapidly, there are no right or wrong sanskar. Whats right in one society is wrong in another one.


COMMENT-11: Ostracized couple can move to more accepting society, if they have willingness (after weighing pros and cons in terms of what they loose and gain) and resources.




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POST-5: Fundamental Principal - A couple is free do to whatever they want as long as they do not harm a 3rd person


science can't override personal freedom. anything which doesn't harm a third person is not harmful for the society and is harmful only for the individuials. and if the individuals are ok with carrying on the harms, the society shouldn't intervene. believe me hooda nad navin jindal won't kill their kids if they marry within the same caste if they chose to. they will only disown like bhajanlal disowned his son, taht too for political reasons. people should but politicain's thoughts. same gotra marriages happen in many other communities like punjabi, south india. what problems you see in their offsprings?


Vishal's REPLY TO POST-5

My personal favorite, she nailed it.


COMMENT-10: anything which doesn't harm a third person is not harmful for the society and is harmful only for the individuials. and if the individuals are ok with carrying on the harms, the society shouldn't intervene.





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POST-6: Society ad Moral's Impact on Personal Freedom and Laws Governing Them


Society, law and morals, by definition, put limits on personal freedoms as much as they guarantee them. How it affects other people is only one of the considerations, but NOT the only consideration. If we forget law of the land and talk about justice from first principles, then principle of greatest good of greatest numbers AS WELL AS principle of upholding the fundamental rights of any minority are important.

What you consider as insignificant may be significant to others and vice-versa. For example, someone may kill an animal sacred to a particular community during that community's festive occasion. This may be insiginificant to the members of the community who are atheist. But the religious members would be affected very siginificantly. In matters of faith, there is no objectivity. And hence laws pertaining to personal domains are hardly objective. A community majority may decide that their greatest good is in having a particular law and the rebellious minority usually has to fall in line. It doesn't matter who is right.

Anyways, personally I believe that a law on this matter is going to be ineffective; it can merely give ego massage to some and political opportunity to others. Already discussed at length.


Vishal's REPLY TO POST-6
Thanks Kapil, What a gem you have produced. Im nodding, YES YES YES.



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POST-7: Societal behavior comprised of thesis, anti-thesis and synthesis


Jakhar ji,

Societal behaviour revolves around the three concepts thesis, anti-thesis and synthesis. If history books are to be believed, there has never been a consensus in any society on any issue concerning traditions and customs or anything else. That is why there have been social upheavals in almost all the countries in every epoch. Dissensions are natural and should be accommodated with a spirit of brotherhood and positivity. The problem is that we -Jats - are least tolerant to each other's opinion and make it a point not to be flexible. Ultimately, we have to put our daggers aside and arrive at a synthesized opinion but in the process a lot of damage to the spirit of brotherhood will already be done.


Vishal's REPLY TO POST-7
Another one of my favorite gem. Copied and pasted here (just like Kapil and Seem's post) to summarize the thread and consolidate the argument in one post. VPSingh ji, age te mein thank thunk na bolunga, too many posts to thank for. Samajh jaiyo, bina formalty ke kaam chala liyo.



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POST-8: Laws are Drawn/Influenced from Societal Norms, Customs and Traditions



Human behavior can not be 100% objective, there is always a portion which is driven by subjective traits. Personal aggrandizement (It took me a while though to find the meaning of this word, had to consult the dictionary) can be defined in many aspects I suppose. Lets say a person sees someone stealing something from somewhere, a good citizen will inform the police. The informer thinks he fulfilled his duty but the thief thinks otherwise, he takes it as personal harm as you have seen in present day life. The offender (Not all may be) tries to take revenge of this. So it depends how a person perceives any action as in above example, the offender thinks that the informed must have a personal gain here otherwise why he should inform the police. Here we can not say that the offender has got freedom of life so he can do anything and later he can prove it his personal deed.

My above argument is about social and legal norms. In my opinion, social traditions, customs and moral values form a base for any kind of law. The law can not be derived from vacuum. I again reiterate that the laws/constitution are derived from social and moral values.

The age old question of chicken first or egg first is not applicable here. Certainly I believe that the social customs/traditions and moral values existed long before the legal system and the constitutions.


Vishal's REPLY TO POST-8
Another gem, that expanded the depth of my understanding.



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POST-9: Laws


Exactly!!

The laws are meant to govern society. Society should decide how it wants to be governed (that is make laws).

Social customs/traditions and moral values are made by the society and hence, any law can not simply ignore them. The challenge that comes is that customs/traditions and moral values are different for different people. So law makers decide (based on some unknown criteria) which one of these, customs/traditions and moral values, gets into a law. May be we can take a look at the UK law, where it is totally based on what the society thinks rather then what the lawmakers think.

Vishal's REPLY TO POST-9

Further refines the understanding gained in previous posts.

I will close the posts 5 to 9 with kapil's statement

Comment-12: Laws pertaining to personal domains are hardly objective, are ineffective and hard to enforce
"Laws pertaining to personal domains are hardly objective. A community majority may decide that their greatest good is in having a particular law and the rebellious minority usually has to fall in line. It doesn't matter who is right.

Anyways, personally I believe that a law on this matter is going to be ineffective; it can merely give ego massage to some and political opportunity to others. Already discussed at length."



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My personal Dronacharya of this thread: Seema, Kapil, VPSingh, Jakhar & Arvind, thnx guys, I learnt from your posts
My Hero of this thread: Seema Sindhu


Thanks and Raam Raam to all for reading.

DrRajpalSingh
June 15th, 2012, 09:42 AM
Commenting on the issues raised in the Satyamev Jayate in 'Letters to the Editor' column Dr. Prem Singh Dahiya from Rohtak writes under caption, Disapproved by science' to shed light on the scientific aspect of intra-gotra marriages and why they are acceptable to the Jats and other Indian communities.

He goes on to state that ''All communities, be it Jats, Brahmins or others in Haryana or elsewhere do not marry in the same gotra [lineage], which means persons considered descendants of the same sage. Same gotra marriages fall within the parameters of consanguineous marriages. According to medical science research such marriages can result in any one of over 250 genetic diseases. The Arab countries are experiencing the burnt of it in the worst form as per information available on the internet.
He goes on to site Prof. JBS Haldane, an internationally renowned British bilogist, who has said that ''the Hindu way of marriage is highly scientific being a check on inbreeding, characterized by exhibition of regressive characters in the progeny.'' .......

For his views on inter caste marriage and other related details, kindly log in www.tribuneindia.com

The Tribune, dated June 15, 2012 Chandigarh edition, p. 8.

rekhasmriti
June 15th, 2012, 06:54 PM
To all Sirs ,

Specially To Tewatia Sir - I m the one who has Voted No- I m not confused

Few things - me n all my those frnds brought up with same traditions - customs

We move on- continue with our lives- -- uska khandan- gaon- kaun kaun se gaotra lagta hai yeh toh nahi poochna banta dosti se pehle

isliye better yeh hai Non Jat dhoond le kam se kam is chakkar se bahar aayega .

Jan boojhkar koi aisa nahi karta- coz hum sabke andar wahin customs n all jazz bhara pada hai

2 thing - Sir g-

man lo ho gayee galti -
ab badon ka farz hai - samjhana- n support karna

ghar ka balak galti karke ghar nahi aayega - toh kya fansi khale

bhad mei gaya aisa system- which would force me - to let my son suffer just becoz he married unknowingly same gotra gal-

Humara sabse bada problem- which i have seen in many of my Jat frnds houses-

yar sab gharwalon se darte kyun hai??????????
why the gharwalas worry about system-society- relatives- but not their KIDS??????


i beleive that is why- we are drafting away from our customs n culture

yar- yeh sab humari comfort or benefit ke liye hota hai

jab koi rule -gale mei fansi dalne lage- toh usse tod do

humare customs- agar aaj ke time ke hisab se sahi nahi hai- toh badlo yar

kab badloge- jab sare fansi kha lenge ya chadha diye jayenge

simple- please grow up-
whosoever has done- purely unintentional

humare log hai yar- hum nahi maaf karenge toh kya padosi karega

jab unhe humari sabse zyada zaroorat tab aa gayee hum- aag lagane

We all proud to be Jat - n will always be-

same way they are-- but is ek cheez ke karan- woh bi sochte honge- isse badhiya Punjabi hote -

plz undertsnad their view- before things would go out of hands

aaj woh ghar aa kar bata rahe hai-

kal na bataeynge- na aayenge-

phir kitne Jat bachenge???????????? waise bhi kam hai

I m not saying this is right-

I m just saying agar " galti se galti ho jaye : toh humare log hai - plz ek chance toh banta hai

marna n maarna bahut easy hai-
par uskka effect agli sari generation bhugtegi

Regards,

rekhasmriti
June 15th, 2012, 07:03 PM
Sir g ,

I always get curious when i start thinking a lot-
isliye i don't think a lot

but there is one question which i used to ask every one including my parents-

sabne ne ek hi cheez sikhayee- same gotra marraige -absolute sin n other jazz

yeh duniya - ek Adam n ek Eve se bani-

so as per that fact - we all are related - ?????????????????
so what door ke istedar hi sahi

Sir g - n jawab milta tha - yeh TV ne bigad rakha hai- kam ki bat soch liya kar ??????????

but kabhi answer nahi mila-

ab apne un sare incidents ki yad dila di ( feeling nostalgic)

Regards,



Commenting on the issues raised in the Satyamev Jayate in 'Letters to the Editor' column Dr. Prem Singh Dahiya from Rohtak writes under caption, Disapproved by science' to shed light on the scientific aspect of intra-gotra marriages and why they are acceptable to the Jats and other Indian communities.

He goes on to state that ''All communities, be it Jats, Brahmins or others in Haryana or elsewhere do not marry in the same gotra [lineage], which means persons considered descendants of the same sage. Same gotra marriages fall within the parameters of consanguineous marriages. According to medical science research such marriages can result in any one of over 250 genetic diseases. The Arab countries are experiencing the burnt of it in the worst form as per information available on the internet.
He goes on to site Prof. JBS Haldane, an internationally renowned British bilogist, who has said that ''the Hindu way of marriage is highly scientific being a check on inbreeding, characterized by exhibition of regressive characters in the progeny.'' .......

For his views on inter caste marriage and other related details, kindly log in www.tribuneindia.com (http://www.tribuneindia.com)

The Tribune, dated June 15, 2012 Chandigarh edition, p. 8.

dndeswal
June 15th, 2012, 07:31 PM
Sir g ,


sabne ne ek hi cheez sikhayee- same gotra marraige -absolute sin n other jazz

yeh duniya - ek Adam n ek Eve se bani-

so as per that fact - we all are related - ?????????????????
so what door ke istedar hi sahi



Adam and Eve? What is the proof that this 'duniya' is the generation of Adam & Eve? Just a fairy tale from Bible !

.

DrRajpalSingh
June 15th, 2012, 09:08 PM
Sir g ,

I always get curious when i start thinking a lot-
isliye i don't think a lot

but there is one question which i used to ask every one including my parents-

sabne ne ek hi cheez sikhayee- same gotra marraige -absolute sin n other jazz

yeh duniya - ek Adam n ek Eve se bani-

so as per that fact - we all are related - ?????????????????
so what door ke istedar hi sahi

Sir g - n jawab milta tha - yeh TV ne bigad rakha hai- kam ki bat soch liya kar ??????????

but kabhi answer nahi mila-

ab apne un sare incidents ki yad dila di ( feeling nostalgic)

Regards,

Kindly comment on findings of scientific studies recommending adoption of Indian marriage system's feature which forbids same gotra marriages propounded and accepted as good by WHO an organ of UNO.

Are the scientific studies carried out throughout world are influence by the Jats or the soft target of media attack ages old Khaps.

According to me, under the influence of media blitz, the youth of today cannot be made to accept the traditions and conventions as practised by the society for the ages.
If the health hazards be brought to the notice of our children from an early age, they will not go astray and then, and then only, there would not rise question of punishing them.

Regards

phoolkumar
June 15th, 2012, 11:19 PM
Rekha Ji,

Those who raise the question of Adam and Eve, please try to respond them the way this guy responded to one, read the second post of this chain, it has the answer:
http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?34415-खाप-मैं-और-समाज-का-मोडर्न-ठेकेदार

Those who raise this question they do so because no-one care to find answer to it but I have given a try....you may also try the same way!


Sir g ,

I always get curious when i start thinking a lot-
isliye i don't think a lot

but there is one question which i used to ask every one including my parents-

sabne ne ek hi cheez sikhayee- same gotra marraige -absolute sin n other jazz

yeh duniya - ek Adam n ek Eve se bani-

so as per that fact - we all are related - ?????????????????
so what door ke istedar hi sahi

Sir g - n jawab milta tha - yeh TV ne bigad rakha hai- kam ki bat soch liya kar ??????????

but kabhi answer nahi mila-

ab apne un sare incidents ki yad dila di ( feeling nostalgic)

Regards,

sunillathwal
June 16th, 2012, 04:05 AM
Kindly comment on findings of scientific studies recommending adoption of Indian marriage system's feature which forbids same gotra marriages propounded and accepted as good by WHO an organ of UNO.

Are the scientific studies carried out throughout world are influence by the Jats or the soft target of media attack ages old Khaps.

According to me, under the influence of media blitz, the youth of today cannot be made to accept the traditions and conventions as practised by the society for the ages.
If the health hazards be brought to the notice of our children from an early age, they will not go astray and then, and then only, there would not rise question of punishing them.

Regards

Sir,

If I remember well, sometime back Kapil (JL member) pointed out the fallacies in the much hackneyed theory of 'same-gotra marriage being wrong scientifically'. Nevertheless, here are some points to consider:

1. While it is true that inbreeding cause genetic conditions and should be avoided. But this is relevant only in closely related couples who share large pool of genes. Let us take boy X from one village and girl Y of same gotra but from another village- now if ancestors of X and Y were not related (say, for last for the last 20 generations), then overlapping of X and Y genes would be insignificant. On the other hand if boy X marries the girl Z which is distantly related to him (though not from his or his mom's gotra but related nevertheless) then theoretically couple X-Z is more prone to genetic diseases then the couple X-Y.
Moreover, many gotras are very very big, spread over many districts/states which essentially means large variety of genes within the same gotra and thus same-gotra marriages (if not in closely related couple) are not wrong in strict scientific terms.

2. I believe WHO suggested avoiding marriage between family members (5-6 generations) which is prevalent in Muslims, African countries and southern India NOT the same-gotra marriages. If WHO's official advice on marriages indeed includes 'gotra', most probably it s due to the confusion of what constitutes 'gotra'.

3. I do NOT believe that our ancestors who started this tradition of 'no marriages in same-gotra' did so in the light of scientific studies or anything like that. It was mostly to maintain a social decorum NOT to avoid genetic diseases (there were other mass-killing endemic diseases for them to take care)!

5. If for a moment I believe that our ancestors were experts in genetics, they would have strongly recommended inter-caste marriages which was not to be. Hence, justifying 'no-marriages in same-gotra' with scientific reasons is a 'recent-afterthought'.

6. Probably the only argument that can be given against 'same-gotra' marriage is this: If the norm is relaxed then it COULD, subsequently, encourage marriages within the related family members and that would be wrong... scientifically! But as such let us accept it is as a innocuous social tradition; much like kissing in public places which in India is supposed to be wrong, illegal and immoral though there is absolutely nothing wrong in it scientifically or otherwise (I mean, billion others do it and very often).

rekhasmriti
June 16th, 2012, 08:06 AM
Sir g ,

ab toh wahin same school wala question-

pehle anda aaya murgi


phir kaise bani yeh duniya???????????

please do not tell me sir - u beleive in Bing Bang theory types kuch

n whats the proof- my fairy tale is not true-

sir g justification toh na apki bat ka hai- ne meri

so agar galat aap nahi toh - mei bhi nahi

Please no offence sir .

Regards,




Adam and Eve? What is the proof that this 'duniya' is the generation of Adam & Eve? Just a fairy tale from Bible !

.

rekhasmriti
June 16th, 2012, 08:15 AM
Sir g ,

Agreed - just to FYI - i read Genetics- n i know all jazz of Genes

toh aap log yeh bolo na- beta isliye nahi karte same gotra mei shadi

yeh custom - n rituals kahan se aa gaye

ab bete ne kardi galti- toh samjhao beta ab toh gaye tere Genes-

usse fansi par latkane ki bat kahan se aa gaye


Sir g- aap khud hi ans jante ho -

still supporting that custom which is responsible for taking away happiness from many Jat families

Sir logic ko logic se todo

else please becharon ko jane do

mera point yeh tha- koi bhi Jat specially when we all know sabse zayda customs n rituals mei fansi huyee caste hai

koi bhi jan boojhkar aisa nahi karega- ab hum youth itne dimag ke sarke nahi huye- ki intentionally musibat bulayenge-

lekin anajane mei ho gayee galti -
toh please accept us- support us

na ki dhakak mar kar- gira do

ya mar do

kahan ka insaf hai-yeh

Regards,




Kindly comment on findings of scientific studies recommending adoption of Indian marriage system's feature which forbids same gotra marriages propounded and accepted as good by WHO an organ of UNO.

Are the scientific studies carried out throughout world are influence by the Jats or the soft target of media attack ages old Khaps.

According to me, under the influence of media blitz, the youth of today cannot be made to accept the traditions and conventions as practised by the society for the ages.
If the health hazards be brought to the notice of our children from an early age, they will not go astray and then, and then only, there would not rise question of punishing them.

Regards

DrRajpalSingh
June 16th, 2012, 11:29 AM
Sir g ,

Agreed - just to FYI - i read Genetics- n i know all jazz of Genes

toh aap log yeh bolo na- beta isliye nahi karte same gotra mei shadi

yeh custom - n rituals kahan se aa gaye

ab bete ne kardi galti- toh samjhao beta ab toh gaye tere Genes-

usse fansi par latkane ki bat kahan se aa gaye


Sir g- aap khud hi ans jante ho -

still supporting that custom which is responsible for taking away happiness from many Jat families

Sir logic ko logic se todo

else please becharon ko jane do

mera point yeh tha- koi bhi Jat specially when we all know sabse zayda customs n rituals mei fansi huyee caste hai

koi bhi jan boojhkar aisa nahi karega- ab hum youth itne dimag ke sarke nahi huye- ki intentionally musibat bulayenge-

lekin anajane mei ho gayee galti -
toh please accept us- support us

na ki dhakak mar kar- gira do

ya mar do

kahan ka insaf hai-yeh

Regards,

It is good learn that you read genetics, kindly share your knowledge of genetics with us regarding the topic of thread and issues raised by Dr. Prem Singh from Rohtak. Is there any material to contradict his statement that could be got in full by logging in the link given in my previous post? If yes, it would be great addition to the existing knowledge.
However I am for application of individual's natural and constitutional right of life and life to be lived in dignity without infringement and interference from any quarter.

I am against killing anyone, whatever the provocation and for giving a chance to improve!

VirJ
June 16th, 2012, 11:37 AM
या थारी विज्ञानं और genes तो एक सड़क पे उघाड़े चलन त हर रिश्तेदारी या भाईचारे में प्यार संबंद ने भी गलत नहीं माने जब तक वे बालक न करे. समाज हर असकी बनायीं नेतिकता और मोलिकता भी कोई चीज़ होया करे हे हार उसती कया करे हे सामाजिक विज्ञानं. एकला किताबी ज्ञान घना सेदा करे हे

swaich
June 16th, 2012, 02:19 PM
Sir,

If I remember well, sometime back Kapil (JL member) pointed out the fallacies in the much hackneyed theory of 'same-gotra marriage being wrong scientifically'. Nevertheless, here are some points to consider:

1. While it is true that inbreeding cause genetic conditions and should be avoided. But this is relevant only in closely related couples who share large pool of genes. Let us take boy X from one village and girl Y of same gotra but from another village- now if ancestors of X and Y were not related (say, for last for the last 20 generations), then overlapping of X and Y genes would be insignificant. On the other hand if boy X marries the girl Z which is distantly related to him (though not from his or his mom's gotra but related nevertheless) then theoretically couple X-Z is more prone to genetic diseases then the couple X-Y.
Moreover, many gotras are very very big, spread over many districts/states which essentially means large variety of genes within the same gotra and thus same-gotra marriages (if not in closely related couple) are not wrong in strict scientific terms.

2. I believe WHO suggested avoiding marriage between family members (5-6 generations) which is prevalent in Muslims, African countries and southern India NOT the same-gotra marriages. If WHO's official advice on marriages indeed includes 'gotra', most probably it s due to the confusion of what constitutes 'gotra'.

3. I do NOT believe that our ancestors who started this tradition of 'no marriages in same-gotra' did so in the light of scientific studies or anything like that. It was mostly to maintain a social decorum NOT to avoid genetic diseases (there were other mass-killing endemic diseases for them to take care)!

5. If for a moment I believe that our ancestors were experts in genetics, they would have strongly recommended inter-caste marriages which was not to be. Hence, justifying 'no-marriages in same-gotra' with scientific reasons is a 'recent-afterthought'.

6. Probably the only argument that can be given against 'same-gotra' marriage is this: If the norm is relaxed then it COULD, subsequently, encourage marriages within the related family members and that would be wrong... scientifically! But as such let us accept it is as a innocuous social tradition; much like kissing in public places which in India is supposed to be wrong, illegal and immoral though there is absolutely nothing wrong in it scientifically or otherwise (I mean, billion others do it and very often).

Excellent post. Many opposers of same-gotra marriage do not know the very basic of genetic facts and details you posted here and yet mention genetics blindly as a reason against same gotra marriage.

rekhasmriti
June 16th, 2012, 08:56 PM
Sir g ,

I guess I have made this clear - that whatever- Genetics jazz was shared was not wrong

the whole point was - if u r using some scientific reason then give that logic

not customs- rituals - khap - n all that music

Let me clear once again- I m also against of same gotra marriage - on scientific reason -

n I m entirely against of ostracizing those people from society

sir g i m simple person with simple logic

- ab kardi humare bachon ne galti -
toh kya karna hai-
ostrasizing / killing/ torture / humiliation


not a solution

society ke rules- time ke sath badalne chahiye

that is biggest drawback of us - hum nahi badalna chahte

same ha i sir g - ZiDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

bas yahi hai problem -

No Offence -

Regards,




It is good learn that you read genetics, kindly share your knowledge of genetics with us regarding the topic of thread and issues raised by Dr. Prem Singh from Rohtak. Is there any material to contradict his statement that could be got in full by logging in the link given in my previous post? If yes, it would be great addition to the existing knowledge.
However I am for application of individual's natural and constitutional right of life and life to be lived in dignity without infringement and interference from any quarter.

I am against killing anyone, whatever the provocation and for giving a chance to improve!

cutejaatsandeep
June 16th, 2012, 09:27 PM
Sir g ,

Agreed - just to FYI - i read Genetics- n i know all jazz of Genes

toh aap log yeh bolo na- beta isliye nahi karte same gotra mei shadi

yeh custom - n rituals kahan se aa gaye

ab bete ne kardi galti- toh samjhao beta ab toh gaye tere Genes-

usse fansi par latkane ki bat kahan se aa gaye


Sir g- aap khud hi ans jante ho -

still supporting that custom which is responsible for taking away happiness from many Jat families

Sir logic ko logic se todo

else please becharon ko jane do

mera point yeh tha- koi bhi Jat specially when we all know sabse zayda customs n rituals mei fansi huyee caste hai

koi bhi jan boojhkar aisa nahi karega- ab hum youth itne dimag ke sarke nahi huye- ki intentionally musibat bulayenge-

lekin anajane mei ho gayee galti -
toh please accept us- support us

na ki dhakak mar kar- gira do

ya mar do

kahan ka insaf hai-yeh

Regards,
rekha first i wana know ki aap kaha se belong karti ho?aisa maine isliye poocha hai coz apki batein mujhe aisa soochne pur majboor ki aap kahi gaoo nahi gaye...gaam gaye hoti to u should hav known y we dont marry in the same gotra....gaoo mai baacho ko starting se bataya jata hai ki gaam mai harr ladki behan hai..gwandi means brotherhood walee gaoo mai bhi sab behan hai...to jab itne saaalo tak kissi ko ye baat saamajh nahi aati to phir woo anjani mai ki hui galti nahi hoti....aisee logo ka marna hi thik hai...jo apne maa baaap ka muh kala kar dete hai n biradari ka bhi....aap shayad kabhi un parents se nahi mili jo bhaag kar apne gotra mai shaadi kar leti hai...do u know log unko kaise kaise taane marte hai...n uss ghar ke kissi bhi baache ki shaadi honi mushkill ho jati hai.....so i would request u first plzzz n spend atleast a weeek in a jat dominated village....thn no ques..of urz will b unanswered...

rekhasmriti
June 17th, 2012, 09:11 PM
u r right - i haven't spend any time in village-

but i m aware all that all typical jat jazz -just fyi- i m also a Jat - my roots belong to a village in Rohtak Distt

plz note - i have never defended same gotra marraige

just asking for forgiveness- on their behalf-- that i made a mistake- now waht

u want me to pay it with my life?????????????????

n all that taunting etc- woh hum hi marte hai unhe-agar hum thodi samajh se kam lenge - woh bat sambhal jayegi

agar itna bhiachara hai toh - kyun marne par tulle rehte hai unhe-

itna so called brother hood hai - toh unki saza unki families ko kyun????????????

sir g - i m not willing to spend any time in village-
because of the level of maturity - that they do not have -

god forbid- if my son would do such thing- u expect me to kill him

yeh bhaichara hai aap logon ka??????????

sahi hai phir toh - then why we r discussing same

faisla toh kar hi liya aap logon ne- ki marna hai unhe-

remember one thing-

today they need support - they come to us- our so called brotherhood-
n we are not going to support them

sir g- TIT 4 TAT-
kal jab humein apne bachon ka support chahiye hoga- woh bhi yahin karenge

simple logic- a request rather

don't push it so hard- that one day system would collapse
understand them- give them at least one chance.

again sir g - no offence

Regards,







rekha first i wana know ki aap kaha se belong karti ho?aisa maine isliye poocha hai coz apki batein mujhe aisa soochne pur majboor ki aap kahi gaoo nahi gaye...gaam gaye hoti to u should hav known y we dont marry in the same gotra....gaoo mai baacho ko starting se bataya jata hai ki gaam mai harr ladki behan hai..gwandi means brotherhood walee gaoo mai bhi sab behan hai...to jab itne saaalo tak kissi ko ye baat saamajh nahi aati to phir woo anjani mai ki hui galti nahi hoti....aisee logo ka marna hi thik hai...jo apne maa baaap ka muh kala kar dete hai n biradari ka bhi....aap shayad kabhi un parents se nahi mili jo bhaag kar apne gotra mai shaadi kar leti hai...do u know log unko kaise kaise taane marte hai...n uss ghar ke kissi bhi baache ki shaadi honi mushkill ho jati hai.....so i would request u first plzzz n spend atleast a weeek in a jat dominated village....thn no ques..of urz will b unanswered...

sanjeev_balyan
June 17th, 2012, 11:38 PM
u r right - i haven't spend any time in village-

but i m aware all that all typical jat jazz -just fyi- i m also a Jat - my roots belong to a village in Rohtak Distt

plz note - i have never defended same gotra marraige

just asking for forgiveness- on their behalf-- that i made a mistake- now waht

u want me to pay it with my life?????????????????

n all that taunting etc- woh hum hi marte hai unhe-agar hum thodi samajh se kam lenge - woh bat sambhal jayegi

agar itna bhiachara hai toh - kyun marne par tulle rehte hai unhe-

itna so called brother hood hai - toh unki saza unki families ko kyun????????????

sir g - i m not willing to spend any time in village-
because of the level of maturity - that they do not have -

god forbid- if my son would do such thing- u expect me to kill him

yeh bhaichara hai aap logon ka??????????

sahi hai phir toh - then why we r discussing same

faisla toh kar hi liya aap logon ne- ki marna hai unhe-

remember one thing-

today they need support - they come to us- our so called brotherhood-
n we are not going to support them

sir g- TIT 4 TAT-
kal jab humein apne bachon ka support chahiye hoga- woh bhi yahin karenge

simple logic- a request rather

don't push it so hard- that one day system would collapse
understand them- give them at least one chance.

again sir g - no offence

Regards,

Madam ji , this problem has already been discussed several times here, just have a look ,

any way thanx to participate and putting yr thoughts

before putting my points, let me clear that i am against honour killing

secondly, leave the scientific logic for a moment.

now human being is antonym of animal jungle raj. But long back all were animals only. A lot of efforts were taken and being taken to come out from that animalism . Society were formed and certain rule regulations were made . a lot of changes / improvements were also done to become better and better human being. Societies on entire planet are different and following own rules. Everyone in his / her society is following its rules /customs.

If somebody breaks the rules than actual and responsible member of the society will not accept it otherwise frequency of these breaking will increase.
u have not spent a day in Jatland society / culture, so absolutely yr reaction is not wrong . U are saying if yr son wants to marry a same gotra girl than u will not have any problem. But if yr son wants to marry his sister , will u say OK. (pl don’t take other wise )

What will be yr feelings , the same feelings come in everybody’s mind at Jatbelt . ya killing is not the solution but accepting it is also not a solution. Actions should be taken to avoid these happenings. Otherwise now it same gotra matter , in future it may be worst than that.

99 % of these cases are totally physical blindness and main reasons are lacking of education, growing in bad culture, non monitoring by parents and degradation of our society or so.

U see in tamil nadu, they marry with maternal cousin. for them maternal cousin is the first priority. So no issue , and we shouldn’t react on this.

So here at JL we should discuss to come out of these problems in our society.

rekhasmriti
June 18th, 2012, 12:38 AM
To all Sirs ,

My family caught me participating in this such hot discussion-
my mom made me download Intolerance love episode- she made me watch it along with her

" then she said - now u can understand why i m asking u not to get urself involve in any such views"

apne kam se kam rakh-

we all know u have Super Extreme Views- ab dhindora peetne ki zaroorat nahi hai

no matter how strong ur views are - they are living with this culture since decades -

they will never understand- many have died- many more to go

tujhe koi zaroorat nahi hai- is sab mei padne ki-

u have finished ur studies- now working- get married- n live ur life bas .........

SO TO ALL SIRS - YEH MERI BHI BAHUT ACHE SE SAMAJH MEI AA GAYEE- AAPNE KABHI NAHI MANNI- KITNO NE APNI JAN GAWA DI- BECHARE KITNE AUR LINE MEI HAI

so for sake of my family- specially mom

I m opting out of this discussion-

Adios Amigos !

( That does not mean i m opting out of JL- no way just this discussion )

Regards,

vikda
June 18th, 2012, 12:47 AM
Time par so jaaoge aur time par uthoge toh Vichaaron mein freshness bani rahegi!!...Early to Bed, Early To Rise, makes a person healthy and wise......It is too late so sleep now.

To all Sirs ,

My family caught me participating in this such hot discussion-
my mom made me download Intolerance love episode- she made me watch it along with her

" then she said - now u can understand why i m asking u not to get urself involve in any such views"

apne kam se kam rakh-

we all know u have Super Extreme Views- ab dhindora peetne ki zaroorat nahi hai

no matter how strong ur views are - they are living with this culture since decades -

they will never understand- many have died- many more to go

tujhe koi zaroorat nahi hai- is sab mei padne ki-

u have finished ur studies- now working- get married- n live ur life bas .........

SO TO ALL SIRS - YEH MERI BHI BAHUT ACHE SE SAMAJH MEI AA GAYEE- AAPNE KABHI NAHI MANNI- KITNO NE APNI JAN GAWA DI- BECHARE KITNE AUR LINE MEI HAI

so for sake of my family- specially mom

I m opting out of this discussion-

Adios Amigos !

( That does not mean i m opting out of JL- no way just this discussion )

Regards,

swaich
June 18th, 2012, 01:32 AM
Madam ji , this problem has already been discussed several times here, just have a look ,

any way thanx to participate and putting yr thoughts

before putting my points, let me clear that i am against honour killing

secondly, leave the scientific logic for a moment.

now human being is antonym of animal jungle raj. But long back all were animals only. A lot of efforts were taken and being taken to come out from that animalism . Society were formed and certain rule regulations were made . a lot of changes / improvements were also done to become better and better human being. Societies on entire planet are different and following own rules. Everyone in his / her society is following its rules /customs.

If somebody breaks the rules than actual and responsible member of the society will not accept it otherwise frequency of these breaking will increase.
u have not spent a day in Jatland society / culture, so absolutely yr reaction is not wrong . U are saying if yr son wants to marry a same gotra girl than u will not have any problem. But if yr son wants to marry his sister , will u say OK. (pl don’t take other wise )

What will be yr feelings , the same feelings come in everybody’s mind at Jatbelt . ya killing is not the solution but accepting it is also not a solution. Actions should be taken to avoid these happenings. Otherwise now it same gotra matter , in future it may be worst than that.

99 % of these cases are totally physical blindness and main reasons are lacking of education, growing in bad culture, non monitoring by parents and degradation of our society or so.

U see in tamil nadu, they marry with maternal cousin. for them maternal cousin is the first priority. So no issue , and we shouldn’t react on this.

So here at JL we should discuss to come out of these problems in our society.

Sanjeev ji, you talk about rules, but I hope you will agree that rules too change with time. And lets not compare marrying within your Gotra as marrying your sister/cousin. The diluting the gene pool reason is as good as debunked.

DrRajpalSingh
June 18th, 2012, 10:44 AM
......The diluting the gene pool reason is as good as debunked.

If it is so, you are requested kindly to enlighten us by giving some specific scientific findings to support your statement on the issue.

Thanks

swaich
June 18th, 2012, 12:34 PM
If it is so, you are requested kindly to enlighten us by giving some specific scientific findings to support your statement on the issue.

Thanks

I think Sunil's post above did logically bust that argument, did it not? Same gotra marriage with no known direct relation would not necessarily lead to any dilution of the gene pool or risk to the next generation. If anything, there are are far bigger factors like access to health and medical services that will create a bigger role in determining the state of the next generation.

Here is something I found via a quick search.
There's nothing wrong with cousins getting married, scientists say (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/theres-nothing-wrong-with-cousins-getting-married-scientists-say-1210072.html).


Please bear in mind I do not support cousin marriages. But the point I am trying to make via the item above is that if cousin marriages in which the marrying individuals share a 1/8 common gene (as they have one common grandfather) have only a 2.2% higher mortality rate than normal, then imagine the case for same gotra marriage in which probably 1/32 gene is same (if grandfather's grandfather were related). Wouldnt that significantly lower the health risks? And in our case where we most often know the ancestors for generations, the chances of a common ancestor would be further back into time and hence the health risk would be negligible.

And with regards to shrinking of the gene pool, Jats are anyways endogamous by nature, so even if you are avoiding marrying within your gotra, you are already diluting the gene pool. So the best way to make the gene pool better is to marry outside, which of course our elders wont suggest as they do not know a lot about genetics.

I understand the fundamentals behind avoiding same gotra marriage. It made sense centuries ago when population was small and each gotra had a maximum of a few hundred families. So it made sense to avoid marrying within the gotra as medical and health services were already poor and you didnt want to increase the risk of an unhealthy generation by marrying a close relation. But now after so many centuries, the same relation's family which you avoided has now grown multiple folds enriched by genes outside of the gotra. So it shouldnt be a concern if you marry into a family with which your ancestors were related 2 centuries back.

So as a thumb rule, I'd say if no common ancestor is known, its safe to marry within gotra.

On a lighter note, we know Muslims are the most well known community practicing cousin-marriages, yet for some reason, their population keeps on increasing. In fact they are the fastest growing community wherever they go! ;)

rekhasmriti
June 18th, 2012, 12:43 PM
Exam tha mera- padh rahi thi -

i had taken break for few minutes- tabhi post bheja that Sir g

n I m not morning person - rather night person


thnx for the advice

Regards,





Time par so jaaoge aur time par uthoge toh Vichaaron mein freshness bani rahegi!!...Early to Bed, Early To Rise, makes a person healthy and wise......It is too late so sleep now.

rekhasmriti
June 18th, 2012, 12:45 PM
Thank you so much- Sir g



Sanjeev ji, you talk about rules, but I hope you will agree that rules too change with time. And lets not compare marrying within your Gotra as marrying your sister/cousin. The diluting the gene pool reason is as good as debunked.

rekhasmriti
June 18th, 2012, 12:53 PM
Super Super Super Super Awesome -------------------

my logic was quite emotional- but urs awesome sir g-

ever since i have finished that SMJ episode- I was thinking so low of being Jat

how cruel- we can be-how cold blooded we are - heart less

humari zaban toh akahd hai hi- humare vichar bhi

just because of urs posts sir g-

i m a little relaxed - not every Jat is same

agar is community mei - Mei hoon-

toh mere jaise aur bhi honge-

saying thnx- won't be enough- in expressing my gratitude -

but thats all i have got

Regards,





I think Sunil's post above did logically bust that argument, did it not? Same gotra marriage with no known direct relation would not necessarily lead to any dilution of the gene pool or risk to the next generation. If anything, there are are far bigger factors like access to health and medical services that will create a bigger role in determining the state of the next generation.

Here is something I found via a quick search.
There's nothing wrong with cousins getting married, scientists say (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/theres-nothing-wrong-with-cousins-getting-married-scientists-say-1210072.html).


Please bear in mind I do not support cousin marriages. But the point I am trying to make via the item above is that if cousin marriages in which the marrying individuals share a 1/8 common gene (as they have one common grandfather) have only a 2.2% higher mortality rate than normal, then imagine the case for same gotra marriage in which probably 1/32 gene is same (if grandfather's grandfather were related). Wouldnt that significantly lower the health risks? And in our case where we most often know the ancestors for generations, the chances of a common ancestor would be further back into time and hence the health risk would be negligible.

And with regards to shrinking of the gene pool, Jats are anyways endogamous by nature, so even if you are avoiding marrying within your gotra, you are already diluting the gene pool. So the best way to make the gene pool better is to marry outside, which of course our elders wont suggest as they do not know a lot about genetics.

I understand the fundamentals behind avoiding same gotra marriage. It made sense centuries ago when population was small and each gotra had a maximum of a few hundred families. So it made sense to avoid marrying within the gotra as medical and health services were already poor and you didnt want to increase the risk of an unhealthy generation by marrying a close relation. But now after so many centuries, the same relation's family which you avoided has now grown multiple folds enriched by genes outside of the gotra. So it shouldnt be a concern if you marry into a family with which your ancestors were related 2 centuries back.

So as a thumb rule, I'd say if no common ancestor is know, its safe to marry within gotra.

On a lighter note, we know Muslims are the most well known community practicing cousin-marriages, yet for some reason, their population keeps on increasing. In fact they are the fastest growing community wherever they go! ;)

Vinod100keen
June 18th, 2012, 01:32 PM
kamaal h ik common question and we all started to shout yeh wo, aise waise , aisa kyon waisa kyn, bhaiyo kitno k pariwar main kisi ne Same gotras marriage ki h ,or kitne apne hath m Gun nd sword le kar marne nikale h, yarron the one who wore shoes knows where it bite, i m nt in favour nt against because i m nt connected with such an issue. recently got married, nd just know only one thing, i still try to find the face of society, i m Jat, liviing with lots of Rao Saabs as my friends, My cousin got married as love marriage , we all brothers married, my father, nd many of my known Jats married to others, i just know one thing, If i m shokeen nd married to shokeen its like marrying to ur sister. But is any one of boy can able to refuse other girl of same Gotra as Girl Friend if she is from other state or other area and no one know that , Friends, we all hate prostitutes too ,but we need prostitutes in the society for protecting our females, kamaal h na hamara double standard jab dushre par aaye toh jat samaaj ,jat samudhai, jat ikta, arre yarron, is Jat is also not human or we all super natural beings. if Human then why not we dare to forgive or find out solution of this problem , eye for an eye make the whole society blind. but nahi sab lage pade h , maro unhe jo aisa kare. Rekha g i appreciate your opinion. nd also read wts ur mother opinion i m nt against urs or nt commenting on others, its just my opinion.

VirJ
June 18th, 2012, 03:27 PM
Here is something I found via a quick search.
There's nothing wrong with cousins getting married, scientists say (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/theres-nothing-wrong-with-cousins-getting-married-scientists-say-1210072.html).


Please bear in mind I do not support cousin marriages. ;)

I am not that smart to figure out myself, was just wondering if science see nothing wrong in cousin marriage why dont you support it as your all other arguments are based on science findings?

swaich
June 18th, 2012, 03:42 PM
I am not that smart to figure out myself, was just wondering if science see nothing wrong in cousin marriage why dont you support it as your all other arguments are based on science findings?

Good question. Yes, genetically it may not be too risky to marry your cousin, but the prime reason that stops one from marrying your cousin is the fact that we are brought up as brothers and sisters. So its the upbringing that decides what kind of feelings I have for my cousin. In some south Indian communities and Muslims cousins aren't brought up as siblings, so naturally its rather easy for them to marry if the questions arises. In our case, as with most North Indian communities cousins are treated as siblings, so a question of marrying your cousin does not arise and hence I do not support it. I remember reading about a research in Israel that kids growing up together in a Kibbutz (Israeli community set up based on socialist ideologies, very few left now) treat each other as brothers and sisters even though they are not specifically taught to do that. Only a very few % of the kids in Kibbutz ended up having amorous feelings for each other. So upbringing and family set up decides a lot of things.

But I understand that your real line of argument was "Why is this guy opposing same gotra when he dislikes cousin marriage?". I hope you got your answer.

swaich
June 18th, 2012, 03:46 PM
Super Super Super Super Awesome -------------------

my logic was quite emotional- but urs awesome sir g-

ever since i have finished that SMJ episode- I was thinking so low of being Jat

how cruel- we can be-how cold blooded we are - heart less

humari zaban toh akahd hai hi- humare vichar bhi

just because of urs posts sir g-

i m a little relaxed - not every Jat is same

agar is community mei - Mei hoon-

toh mere jaise aur bhi honge-

saying thnx- won't be enough- in expressing my gratitude -

but thats all i have got

Regards,

Rekha ji, diversity of opinion is a necessary ingredient for the growth of any community. If have an opinion which is different from the majority, we should express it along with factors that influenced us to think along those lines.

DrRajpalSingh
June 18th, 2012, 04:44 PM
I think Sunil's post above did logically bust that argument, did it not? Same gotra marriage with no known direct relation would not necessarily lead to any dilution of the gene pool or risk to the next generation. If anything, there are are far bigger factors like access to health and medical services that will create a bigger role in determining the state of the next generation.

Here is something I found via a quick search.
There's nothing wrong with cousins getting married, scientists say (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/theres-nothing-wrong-with-cousins-getting-married-scientists-say-1210072.html).
. .....

Kindly permit me to reproduce below for the readers to enable them to draw their own conclusion [Of course without comment, because it is self explanatory] what the study referred to above in the link given contains :


The risk of giving birth to babies with genetic defects as a result of marriages between first cousins is no greater than that run by women over 40 who become pregnant, according to two scientists who call for the taboo on first-cousin families to be lifted.
Women in their forties are not made to feel guilty about having babies and the same should apply to cousins who want to marry, said Professor Diane Paul of the University of Massachusetts in Boston and Professor Hamish Spencer of the University of Otago in Dunedin, New Zealand. Although first-cousin marriages are legal in Britain, there have been calls to ban the practice because of reports that it has resulted in a higher-than-average incidence of birth defects in certain immigrant communities where it is common and culturally acceptable.
However, Professors Paul and Spencer said that the risk of congenital defects is about 2 per cent higher than average for babies born to first-cousin marriages – with the infant mortality about 4.4 per cent higher – which is on a par with the risk to babies born to women over 40. "Women over the age of 40 have a similar risk of having children with birth defects and no one is suggesting they should be prevented from reproducing," said Professor Spencer, whose co-authored study is published in the online journal Public Library of Science........''

VirJ
June 18th, 2012, 05:07 PM
Good question. Yes, genetically it may not be too risky to marry your cousin, but the prime reason that stops one from marrying your cousin is the fact that we are brought up as brothers and sisters. So its the upbringing that decides what kind of feelings I have for my cousin. In some south Indian communities and Muslims cousins aren't brought up as siblings, so naturally its rather easy for them to marry if the questions arises. In our case, as with most North Indian communities cousins are treated as siblings, so a question of marrying your cousin does not arise and hence I do not support it. I remember reading about a research in Israel that kids growing up together in a Kibbutz (Israeli community set up based on socialist ideologies, very few left now) treat each other as brothers and sisters even though they are not specifically taught to do that. Only a very few % of the kids in Kibbutz ended up having amorous feelings for each other. So upbringing and family set up decides a lot of things.

But I understand that your real line of argument was "Why is this guy opposing same gotra when he dislikes cousin marriage?". I hope you got your answer.

So when people have explained you above that in us Jats we consider people from same Got as Goti bhai why dont u understand and stop your scientific arguments. You are just talking like an ignorant kid who has read some books but have no idea about ground realities. Thats why i said above bookish knowledge alone is dangerous thing. If you cant marry you cousins why you asking us to do? DO you have any knowledge about about setup? People from same Got are from same parental lineage.

swaich
June 18th, 2012, 05:41 PM
So when people have explained you above that in us Jats we consider people from same Got as Goti bhai why dont u understand and stop your scientific arguments. You are just talking like an ignorant kid who has read some books but have no idea about ground realities. Thats why i said above bookish knowledge alone is dangerous thing. If you cant marry you cousins why you asking us to do? DO you have any knowledge about about setup? People from same Got are from same parental lineage.

I understand what you mean as Goti bhai. But saying there are feelings involved and then saying there are genetic reasons for avoiding same gotra marriages are two different things, are they not. Scientific and genetic research says marrying within the gotra would not lead to health hazards debunking the 'genetic reasons'.

I am a Jat (though we spell it as Jatt) so I think I do have a good understanding of what you mean by "set-up". In your case I see an unwillingness to see the fallacy in your so called set-up. And regarding the bold, how far back do you want to go to track parental lineage? Lets assume you marry a Benipal, thinking its safe since you are a Deswal (assuming), but what if 10 generations back a Deswal of your family had already married a Benipal of the same family? Arent you two of the same parental lineage now? So the point is - there really is no way to find out similarity in parental lineage beyond a few generations, unless you do a DNA test. So how can you say there is similarity in parental lineage?

swaich
June 18th, 2012, 05:42 PM
[/LEFT]
[/SIZE]
Kindly permit me to reproduce below for the readers to enable them to draw their own conclusion [Of course without comment, because it is self explanatory] what the study referred to above in the link given contains :


The risk of giving birth to babies with genetic defects as a result of marriages between first cousins is no greater than that run by women over 40 who become pregnant, according to two scientists who call for the taboo on first-cousin families to be lifted.
Women in their forties are not made to feel guilty about having babies and the same should apply to cousins who want to marry, said Professor Diane Paul of the University of Massachusetts in Boston and Professor Hamish Spencer of the University of Otago in Dunedin, New Zealand. Although first-cousin marriages are legal in Britain, there have been calls to ban the practice because of reports that it has resulted in a higher-than-average incidence of birth defects in certain immigrant communities where it is common and culturally acceptable.
However, Professors Paul and Spencer said that the risk of congenital defects is about 2 per cent higher than average for babies born to first-cousin marriages – with the infant mortality about 4.4 per cent higher – which is on a par with the risk to babies born to women over 40. "Women over the age of 40 have a similar risk of having children with birth defects and no one is suggesting they should be prevented from reproducing," said Professor Spencer, whose co-authored study is published in the online journal Public Library of Science........''



Thanks for the extra effort. But that is exactly why I posted the link in the first place instead of just saying I found a source.

VirJ
June 18th, 2012, 06:32 PM
I havent said anything about science as I am not qualified to do so nor do I think its absolute. you have again showed your ignorance about our set up. when you meet a girl from your got or your mother got we call her sister and also give her some token money. Now ur argument for not marrying your cousin is that you think she is your sister due to your upbringing but a south indian may not agree to this who has the custom of marrying neice or cousin. when i tell you we are brought up this way and our set up is lik this you start some other argument. knowing the realities help sometime. anyway u wont believe what u dont want to

DrRajpalSingh
June 18th, 2012, 06:58 PM
Thanks for the extra effort. But that is exactly why I posted the link in the first place instead of just saying I found a source.

Read the link again, Friend and you will find the true implication of the recommendations of the doctors duo. But the argument of the doctors points to risk comparison between first cousin marriages and ladies who conceive after the age of 40. Even then, risk is slightly greater in the case of the former kind of marriages. What does this mean? They are dangerous, though a bit degree more. Moreover the age of the first cousins has not been specified. Hence hesitant and doubtful conclusions may be avoided!!!
Thanks.

swaich
June 18th, 2012, 07:16 PM
Read the link again, Friend and you will find the true implication of the recommendations of the doctors duo. But the argument of the doctors points to risk comparison between first cousin marriages and ladies who conceive after the age of 40. Even then, risk is slightly greater in the case of the former kind of marriages. What does this mean? They are dangerous, though a bit degree more. Moreover the age of the first cousins has not been specified. Hence hesitant and doubtful conclusions may be avoided!!!
Thanks.

It says a risk of 2.2% higher, if you marry your first cousin. That is not conclusive enough to be classified as "great risk". What that essentially means is that only about 12 out of 100 first cousin couples would have unhealthy kids, as compared to 10 out of 100 for couples who are not cousins. Now extrapolating this to same gotra marriages (distant, distant, distant cousins according to traditional thinking), do you think there would be any significant difference between gotra and non gotra marriages?

sunillathwal
June 18th, 2012, 07:19 PM
So when people have explained you above that in us Jats we consider people from same Got as Goti bhai why dont u understand and stop your scientific arguments. You are just talking like an ignorant kid who has read some books but have no idea about ground realities. Thats why i said above bookish knowledge alone is dangerous thing. If you cant marry you cousins why you asking us to do? DO you have any knowledge about about setup?

This is ridiculous, Vipin. Why are you asking him to stop using scientific arguments? He did NOT start it; he just provided an counter-argument to many learned gentlemen who are using so-called 'scientific logic' to oppose same-gotra marriage on this thread! Obviously these gentlemen either don't understand the theory in proper context or just being deliberately ignorant. Why can't the opponents of 'same-gotra marriage' simply say that there is widely prevalent tradition of kinship within the gotra in all castes and hence it is wrong? Why bring out the scientific theories to support your arguments which are invalid to start with?
And if some guy pointed out the flaws in your(!) theory, you label him ignorant; how rich!

I, too, don't believe in same-gotra marriage and to be honest If someone from my village marry (or fled) with another fellow villager, I won't have any respect for such couple. But I won't hide this behind any false scientific logic. Whether 'same-gotra' marriages are scientifically wrong or right is IRRELEVANT. It is simply how I have been brought up, the percolation of traditional values and social norms. While social norms (and ills) do change with time, I don't think that not marrying in same the got is anything regressive or too difficult to comply with in modern age. I find it innocuous and decent, something worth preserving. As simple as that.



People from same Got are from same parental lineage.

Again, your premise is correct but implied conclusion is wrong! A 'got' which supposedly been there for, say 50, generations- true, all kids in 50th generation had same parental lineage. What about their maternal lineages? 2nd generation kids had 50% of parental genes. In each successive generation these 'super' parental genes will reduced by half. Take it to 50th generation: out of your 562949953421312 genes only ONE is from your super गोत देव. Technically number will be a bit higher but you get the idea, right?

swaich
June 18th, 2012, 07:22 PM
I havent said anything about science as I am not qualified to do so nor do I think its absolute. you have again showed your ignorance about our set up. when you meet a girl from your got or your mother got we call her sister and also give her some token money. Now ur argument for not marrying your cousin is that you think she is your sister due to your upbringing but a south indian may not agree to this who has the custom of marrying neice or cousin. when i tell you we are brought up this way and our set up is lik this you start some other argument. knowing the realities help sometime. anyway u wont believe what u dont want to

So do you mean to say the upbringing failed in case of couples who went for same gotra marriages? Their families didn't educate them enough on the issue?

Your line of argument simply is 'Lets not question a custom or tradition because its a part of our set-up'. Well apparently this custom and its interpretations has created enough problems and that is why we are discussing it on this forum in a thread, are we not?

JSRana
June 18th, 2012, 08:00 PM
I, too, don't believe in same-gotra marriage and to be honest If someone from my village marry (or fled) with another fellow villager, I won't have any respect for such couple. But I won't hide this behind any false scientific logic. Whether 'same-gotra' marriages are scientifically wrong or right is IRRELEVANT. It is simply how I have been brought up, the percolation of traditional values and social norms. While social norms (and ills) do change with time, I don't think that not marrying in same the got is anything regressive or too difficult to comply with in modern age. I find it innocuous and decent, something worth preserving. As simple as that.




कांटे की बात कह दी भाई साहब बाकी सब मेरे ख्याल में भुर्लियाँ पै गैहेंटा जोड़ना सै |

धन्यवाद सहित |

DrRajpalSingh
June 18th, 2012, 09:37 PM
It says a risk of 2.2% higher, if you marry your first cousin. That is not conclusive enough to be classified as "great risk". What that essentially means is that only about 12 out of 100 first cousin couples would have unhealthy kids, as compared to 10 out of 100 for couples who are not cousins. Now extrapolating this to same gotra marriages (distant, distant, distant cousins according to traditional thinking), do you think there would be any significant difference between gotra and non gotra marriages?

Friend,
Perhaps I could not explain properly what the learned doctors have told or you are bent upon to thrust your idea upon the readers on the wrong premise.
It is your fundamental right and it is for you to decide whether you like intra gotra or inter gotra marriage but even if we can avoid this uninvited 12% risk [which you do not consider significant in spite of the fact that every life is precious] to the newly weds, it explains in itself the importance of avoiding same gotra marriages.
2. In the study, it has nowhere mentioned that what is the age of married women among the same gotra to conceive in comparison to 40 years mentioned for women with whom this percentage has been compared. Could you further enlighten you us on this point!
3. The universe of the study and data collected is nowhere given in this extract of paper printed in The Independent. Perhaps it pertains to England or UK. If you could suggest some other similar study to corroborate the findings of the learned doctors.
4. The study instead of supporting the votaries of same gotra marriage clearly says that in such type of marriages specific risk of genetic diseases is there. Even then, if people like to become more open minded by marrying their first cousins, none must interfere in it; indeed none can stop them as they have right to life guaranteed by the constitution of India.

In the end to make my point clear I would quote a very simple saying in Haryanavi:

GOTI GOTI BHAI, BAAKI KEE ASHNAI

i.e.

[PEOPLE OF THE SAME GOTRA ARE BRETHERN AND OTHER FOLKS ARE THEIR TO DEVELOP RELATIONS]

swaich
June 18th, 2012, 10:54 PM
Friend,
Perhaps I could not explain properly what the learned doctors have told or you are bent upon to thrust your idea upon the readers on the wrong premise.
Sir, I am not here on any agenda, nor am I a novice at reading stuff, so it must be the bold above.


It is your fundamental right and it is for you to decide whether you like intra gotra or inter gotra marriage but even if we can avoid this uninvited 12% risk [which you do not consider significant in spite of the fact that every life is precious] to the newly weds, it explains in itself the importance of avoiding same gotra marriages.
Sorry to say, but it looks like either you didnt understand the piece I quoted or choose to nit-pick the details suiting your arguments. Either way, let me mention again, 12% for cousin couples and 10% for non-cousin couples. Now in any case you are getting a minimum 10% risk. My point (again mentioning it perhaps the third time) is that - is the 2% extra risk proof enough that we should avoid cousin marriages? And if we arent sure about that, how can we say anything about same-gotra marriages.

2. In the study, it has nowhere mentioned that what is the age of married women among the same gotra to conceive in comparison to 40 years mentioned for women with whom this percentage has been compared. Could you further enlighten you us on this point!
3. The universe of the study and data collected is nowhere given in this extract of paper printed in The Independent. Perhaps it pertains to England or UK. If you could suggest some other similar study to corroborate the findings of the learned doctors.
4. The study instead of supporting the votaries of same gotra marriage clearly says that in such type of marriages specific risk of genetic diseases is there. Even then, if people like to become more open minded by marrying their first cousins, none must interfere in it; indeed none can stop them as they have right to life guaranteed by the constitution of India.
So in the section I quoted above, you chose to accept the findings but said that the risk was significant enough and cant be ignored. But here you are doubting the research and its methodology. Fair enough, although the piece does mention it included immigrant muslim communities as well, I understand your questioning of the item as a lot of details arent mentioned. I will find another one for you then. In the meantime, could you find me a research that says same-Gotra pose marriages risks, with methodology and details too?


In the end to make my point clear I would quote a very simple saying in Haryanavi:

GOTI GOTI BHAI, BAAKI KEE ASHNAI

i.e.

[PEOPLE OF THE SAME GOTRA ARE BRETHERN AND OTHER FOLKS ARE THEIR TO DEVELOP RELATIONS]

Wouldnt it be an easy world if arguments and debated that include scientific analysis can be settled via proverbs and sayings?

If you do not want to go into any research or scientific study but just want to settle this via 'custom is custom', then please say so.

sanjeev_balyan
June 18th, 2012, 11:12 PM
असल मे इस समस्या का जीन्स और साइंस ते कुछ लेना देना नहीं है।
इसका मतलब यो हुआ की साइंस के हिसाब ते अगर ठीक ना है एक गोत मे शादी , तो बिलकुल ना होण दो

और अगर साइंस के हिसाब ते कोई फरक नहीं पड़ता तो करण दो शादी
यूहे डिस्कस होरया है ,

गामा मे लोग , खाप आले जाने है के इस्स जीन्स कहानी ने ,
पीएचडी होण लगरि है यानहा इस्स बात पे

असल मे गामा मे अगर कोई केस ईसा होता है तो , माँ बाप एक बार छो मे आके , असेप्ट कारण ने तयार हो भी जा है ,

पर कुनबे आले , पड़ोसी , मोहल्ले, पट्टी, गाम, खाप आले ने जीन्स विंस कुछ नहीं याद आता
सीधी वही फिलिंग आवे है , जणे भाई बहन ने शादी कर ली हो

ये हमारी गामा के सामाजिक जीवन मे पले , बढ़े और परवरिश का नतीजा है

अब एक ऑप्शन है की असेप्ट कर लो इस ने , अर चुप रहो सब

दूसरा है की हो हल्ला मचाओ , और कई लोग इस होनर कीलिग ने भी सोचे है

दोणु ही गलत है ,
एक ही हल है की समाज मे कुछ करा जा , किसी तरह इस एक गोत शादी पे अंकुश लाया जा
इतना आसान नहीं है , ग्राउंड पे भौत कुछ करने की जरूरत है

जो मे ऊपर बात लिखी , इसने वही ठीक समझ सके है जो गाम मे पैदा हुआ और कम ते कम 12 वनही ते करी हो
जाटलैंड पे इसे मेम्बर कम ही है , ज्यादातर तो इसे है की गाम मे एक रात ना काटी जा

एसी रुम मे बैठ के , इंटरनेट पी किबोर्ड के बटन दबाये के बेरा पाटे गा ,

मे किसी के ज्ञान या मचोरीटी पे कोई कमेन्ट नहीं कर रहा , आप सभी की वजह से जाट बिरादरी का देश और विश्व मे नाम है,
माफी चाहूँगा किसी को बुरा लगे तो

rekhasmriti
June 19th, 2012, 03:55 AM
na g na - bur maanne wali toh koi bat hi nahi

coz i belong to other category- jisne gaon mei ek rat bhi nahi guzari

gayee bhi toh - tourist spot ki tarah - khet dekhe - lassi peeli - n wapis back toh rohtak

but sir - pehle decide kar lo science ke chakkar mei aap isse galat mante ho
n apne bachon ko fansi tangne ko tayar ho

or u r doing this for the sake of custom n rituals- up bringing n all that gaon types jazz

if that is so - sir i would advice time has changed-

hum Jat - time ke sath nahi chale- toh humare ghar ke bache karenge out of caste shadi- n zindagi bhar shakal nahi dikhayenge

yeh bade - buzurg kab tak hai- kab tak hai yeh khap

hum hi inka future - n agar humne kar diya kinara- toh baja lo dhol


although i don't belong to village background- but even i know from childhood- kaun bhai - lagta hai

so plz - its not like i m defending getting married in same gotra ( i have said these xillion times)

just plzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
one request - agar mera koi bahi ya behan aisa karte hai - toh
plzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz give them one chance

maaf karne wale maafi karne wale se bada hot hai

plz they r our blood-our community


Regards,




असल मे इस समस्या का जीन्स और साइंस ते कुछ लेना देना नहीं है।
इसका मतलब यो हुआ की साइंस के हिसाब ते अगर ठीक ना है एक गोत मे शादी , तो बिलकुल ना होण दो

और अगर साइंस के हिसाब ते कोई फरक नहीं पड़ता तो करण दो शादी
यूहे डिस्कस होरया है ,

गामा मे लोग , खाप आले जाने है के इस्स जीन्स कहानी ने ,
पीएचडी होण लगरि है यानहा इस्स बात पे

असल मे गामा मे अगर कोई केस ईसा होता है तो , माँ बाप एक बार छो मे आके , असेप्ट कारण ने तयार हो भी जा है ,

पर कुनबे आले , पड़ोसी , मोहल्ले, पट्टी, गाम, खाप आले ने जीन्स विंस कुछ नहीं याद आता
सीधी वही फिलिंग आवे है , जणे भाई बहन ने शादी कर ली हो

ये हमारी गामा के सामाजिक जीवन मे पले , बढ़े और परवरिश का नतीजा है

अब एक ऑप्शन है की असेप्ट कर लो इस ने , अर चुप रहो सब

दूसरा है की हो हल्ला मचाओ , और कई लोग इस होनर कीलिग ने भी सोचे है

दोणु ही गलत है ,
एक ही हल है की समाज मे कुछ करा जा , किसी तरह इस एक गोत शादी पे अंकुश लाया जा
इतना आसान नहीं है , ग्राउंड पे भौत कुछ करने की जरूरत है

जो मे ऊपर बात लिखी , इसने वही ठीक समझ सके है जो गाम मे पैदा हुआ और कम ते कम 12 वनही ते करी हो
जाटलैंड पे इसे मेम्बर कम ही है , ज्यादातर तो इसे है की गाम मे एक रात ना काटी जा

एसी रुम मे बैठ के , इंटरनेट पी किबोर्ड के बटन दबाये के बेरा पाटे गा ,

मे किसी के ज्ञान या मचोरीटी पे कोई कमेन्ट नहीं कर रहा , आप सभी की वजह से जाट बिरादरी का देश और विश्व मे नाम है,
माफी चाहूँगा किसी को बुरा लगे तो

VirJ
June 19th, 2012, 05:33 AM
This is ridiculous, Vipin. Why are you asking him to stop using scientific arguments? He did NOT start it



I think he understand why i asked him to stop it.


Again, your premise is correct but implied conclusion is wrong! A 'got' which supposedly been there for, say 50, generations- true, all kids in 50th generation had same parental lineage. What about their maternal lineages? 2nd generation kids had 50% of parental genes. In each successive generation these 'super' parental genes will reduced by half. Take it to 50th generation: out of your 562949953421312 genes only ONE is from your super गोत देव. Technically number will be a bit higher but you get the idea, right?

This isnt what i said. This is just out of your mind. I merely stated a fact that we give token money to goti sister regardless of state or how far we are seperated and this is another fact that we are from same lineage. So can draw conclusions on your own from facts

VirJ
June 19th, 2012, 06:59 AM
So do you mean to say the upbringing failed in case of couples who went for same gotra marriages? Their families didn't educate them enough on the issue?

Your line of argument simply is 'Lets not question a custom or tradition because its a part of our set-up'. Well apparently this custom and its interpretations has created enough problems and that is why we are discussing it on this forum in a thread, are we not?

Now we are talking. See when you say family didn’t educate them. Who are them?? So far there is only one case of same gotra which I know. These things were known to them i assume as they are not special rules they are just obvious unless you are living in foreign land. Now you say this custom has created enough problems?? What are your basis?? Aren’t you talking without knowing the realities?
Only one case and you saying that it has causes enough problems?

Now i asked you before what is your logic of not marrying your cousin? You mentioned upbringing?? Let’s say your mother forget to tell you that you cannot marry cousin and you happen to marry your cousin (by you I don’t mean yourself). What will your family do here? Sometime in such cases family take extreme steps as killing to save their face or disown the kids. Now even if your family would have told you this still you decide to marry your cousin this is also possible in this case you blame the upbringing or the sick individual . So this should be looked at case by case basis. We have seen recently in news a French national raped his daughter. I mean there are all sort of people out there just because one or two of them you don’t go and change or blame the whole set up. In fact the set up is there to control these sort of people. 99.9% of Jats appreciate this set of rules and it’s the whole base of our society. You don’t have sisterly love for your sister because of science but it is because of these society made set of rules.

DrRajpalSingh
June 19th, 2012, 08:21 AM
Wouldnt it be an easy world if arguments and debated that include scientific analysis can be settled via proverbs and sayings?

If you do not want to go into any research or scientific study but just want to settle this via 'custom is custom', then please say so.

Dear Friend,

I respect your right to express your views but by presenting both scientific study analysis and wisdom of the ancestors contained in the quotation wanted to broad base the discussion so that both the sides of the coin are seen by the protagonists of both the sides.

Take it in that light and keep on contributing your point of view on the issue to arrive at some convincing and acceptable, even if it is tentative, conclusion.

Thanks.

DrRajpalSingh
June 19th, 2012, 08:49 AM
......अब एक ऑप्शन है की असेप्ट कर लो इस ने , अर चुप रहो सब

दूसरा है की हो हल्ला मचाओ , और कई लोग इस होनर कीलिग ने भी सोचे है

दोणु ही गलत है ,
एक ही हल है की समाज मे कुछ करा जा , किसी तरह इस एक गोत शादी पे अंकुश लाया जा
इतना आसान नहीं है , ग्राउंड पे भौत कुछ करने की जरूरत है .....

Friend You have settled the issue in a very befitting matter pointing out both sides of the coin.

Under the wave of emergence of globalisation of economy and influence of media, a strong urge for turning to newer life styles and relationship is fast emerging throughout the world and India is no exception to this.
Therefore to keep the cultural moors, values, traditions and conventions intact is a big challenge everywhere as they are being re-read/revised or re-evaluated in every sphere of family life.

People need to know what sort of changes have emerged in the relations of blood relatives: Brother-sister, mother/father-son/daughter, wife- husband, grandparents-grandsons/granddaughters et all. It is true that all gumut of the social values morals or ethos has/had evolved over the years to safe guard the smooth functioning of various units of family and social life in which additions and deletions have always been made throughout the ages to suit it to the contemporary needs of the society world over.
You have rightly concluded that the issue in hand is going to assume wider dimensions and to give it proper direction, both pro-changers and anti-changers have to make great efforts to arrive at an amicable solution acceptable to all. This needs open heart discussion, debate and enlightenment moves spread over long periods of time for all concerned.

Since the Jats have emerged as staunch lovers of democracy throughout the ages, they are still capable to settle the issue in a democratic method. That is all. But the million dollar question remains: who would 'bell' the proverbial 'cat' to start this healthy discussion.

Thanks

swaich
June 21st, 2012, 10:45 PM
Now we are talking. See when you say family didn’t educate them. Who are them?? So far there is only one case of same gotra which I know. These things were known to them i assume as they are not special rules they are just obvious unless you are living in foreign land. Now you say this custom has created enough problems?? What are your basis?? Aren’t you talking without knowing the realities?
Only one case and you saying that it has causes enough problems?

Now i asked you before what is your logic of not marrying your cousin? You mentioned upbringing?? Let’s say your mother forget to tell you that you cannot marry cousin and you happen to marry your cousin (by you I don’t mean yourself). What will your family do here? Sometime in such cases family take extreme steps as killing to save their face or disown the kids. Now even if your family would have told you this still you decide to marry your cousin this is also possible in this case you blame the upbringing or the sick individual . So this should be looked at case by case basis. We have seen recently in news a French national raped his daughter. I mean there are all sort of people out there just because one or two of them you don’t go and change or blame the whole set up. In fact the set up is there to control these sort of people. 99.9% of Jats appreciate this set of rules and it’s the whole base of our society. You don’t have sisterly love for your sister because of science but it is because of these society made set of rules.

I know of more than one case for sure and I am sure others too. So you are saying there's no need for debate since 99.9% of Jats agree with this custom. Fine if that floats your boat. Apparently all the media cases are just an attempt to malign a community, as always!

rekhasmriti
June 22nd, 2012, 06:27 AM
Customs are meant for the benefit of the society
they need to be updated with time

aise custom ka kya karna- which would lead to many broken houses -and killing




Now we are talking. See when you say family didn’t educate them. Who are them?? So far there is only one case of same gotra which I know. These things were known to them i assume as they are not special rules they are just obvious unless you are living in foreign land. Now you say this custom has created enough problems?? What are your basis?? Aren’t you talking without knowing the realities?
Only one case and you saying that it has causes enough problems?

Now i asked you before what is your logic of not marrying your cousin? You mentioned upbringing?? Let’s say your mother forget to tell you that you cannot marry cousin and you happen to marry your cousin (by you I don’t mean yourself). What will your family do here? Sometime in such cases family take extreme steps as killing to save their face or disown the kids. Now even if your family would have told you this still you decide to marry your cousin this is also possible in this case you blame the upbringing or the sick individual . So this should be looked at case by case basis. We have seen recently in news a French national raped his daughter. I mean there are all sort of people out there just because one or two of them you don’t go and change or blame the whole set up. In fact the set up is there to control these sort of people. 99.9% of Jats appreciate this set of rules and it’s the whole base of our society. You don’t have sisterly love for your sister because of science but it is because of these society made set of rules.

VirJ
June 22nd, 2012, 07:46 AM
I know of more than one case for sure and I am sure others too. So you are saying there's no need for debate since 99.9% of Jats agree with this custom. Fine if that floats your boat. Apparently all the media cases are just an attempt to malign a community, as always!

I dont want to prolong it just based on your hypothetical examples. Show me the media reports for same gotra marriages first.

swaich
June 22nd, 2012, 03:04 PM
I dont want to prolong it just based on your hypothetical examples. Show me the media reports for same gotra marriages first.

Are these four cases enough?

Case 1 (http://www.indianexpress.com/news/haryana-panchayat-takes-on-govt-over-samegotra-marriage/491548/1) Gehlawat case

Case 2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manoj-Babli_honour_killing_case) Manoj-Babli case

Case 3 (http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl2123/stories/20041119001304900.htm): Rathi Khap Panchayat of Asanda, Jhajjar

Case 4 (http://news.webindia123.com/news/articles/India/20070903/759506.html): Kavita and Pawan, Karnal

You can decide to close your eyes and claim everything is fine or discuss the issue and find ways to resolve it. The choice is yours.

1. Same-gotra mariages have no negative effect and hence cant be banned on any grounds. If customs are the only obstacles then customs need to be changed.
2. Khaps have no right to excommunicate or pass judgement that leads to ostracism or death of people. They are an extra-judicial social set up, nothing else.

Samarkadian
June 22nd, 2012, 03:30 PM
Are these four cases enough?

Case 1 (http://www.indianexpress.com/news/haryana-panchayat-takes-on-govt-over-samegotra-marriage/491548/1) Gehlawat case

Case 2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manoj-Babli_honour_killing_case) Manoj-Babli case

Case 3 (http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl2123/stories/20041119001304900.htm): Rathi Khap Panchayat of Asanda, Jhajjar

Case 4 (http://news.webindia123.com/news/articles/India/20070903/759506.html): Kavita and Pawan, Karnal

You can decide to close your eyes and claim everything is fine or discuss the issue and find ways to resolve it. The choice is yours.

1. Same-gotra mariages have no negative effect and hence cant be banned on any grounds. If customs are the only obstacles then customs need to be changed.
2. Khaps have no right to excommunicate or pass judgement that leads to ostracism or death of people. They are an extra-judicial social set up, nothing else.

Why is there a need to change for few incests ?

These incests have full right to come back in village and do all dhok-pooja and that supposed to be revered with big garlands if not axes?

Is it right or ethical to call your sister your bhabhi or your beti as your bahu just because Sh*t Supreme court says?

If all that is right then it is better to stick with the wrong.

swaich
June 22nd, 2012, 03:46 PM
Why is there a need to change for few incests ?

These incests have full right to come back in village and do all dhok-pooja and that supposed to be revered with big garlands if not axes?

Is it right or ethical to call your sister your bhabhi or your beti as your bahu just because Sh*t Supreme court says?

If all that is right then it is better to stick with the wrong.

A few? People died, families were lost and folks sent to jail. What would it take to sit up and take notice? A 1000 deaths?

And can you explain how same-gotra marriage is incest? I know you cant do that scientifically, so are you going to hold on to the crutches of customs and traditions?

Samarkadian
June 22nd, 2012, 03:49 PM
A few? People died, families were lost and folks sent to jail. What would it take to sit up and take notice? A 1000 deaths?

And can you explain how same-gotra marriage is incest? I know you cant do that scientifically, so are you going to hold on to the crutches of customs and traditions?

Yes a few. They died because they were destined to. Let it be 10,000 or more. Who cares about weed?

So you rely on cut copy paste sort of just 60 years old borrowed constitution headed by morons? I don't.

Can you marry a Swaich girl? If not why?

VirJ
June 22nd, 2012, 03:54 PM
Are these four cases enough?

Case 1 (http://www.indianexpress.com/news/haryana-panchayat-takes-on-govt-over-samegotra-marriage/491548/1) Gehlawat case

Case 2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manoj-Babli_honour_killing_case) Manoj-Babli case

Case 3 (http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl2123/stories/20041119001304900.htm): Rathi Khap Panchayat of Asanda, Jhajjar

Case 4 (http://news.webindia123.com/news/articles/India/20070903/759506.html): Kavita and Pawan, Karnal

You can decide to close your eyes and claim everything is fine or discuss the issue and find ways to resolve it. The choice is yours.

1. Same-gotra mariages have no negative effect and hence cant be banned on any grounds. If customs are the only obstacles then customs need to be changed.
2. Khaps have no right to excommunicate or pass judgement that leads to ostracism or death of people. They are an extra-judicial social set up, nothing else.

Put same gotra in google and copy paste here? case 1 not same gotra, case 3 not same gotra, case 4 not enough info. case 2 i knew before as the only same gotra. Do u really understand what are you talking about?

swaich
June 22nd, 2012, 04:00 PM
Yes a few. They died because they were destined to. Let it be 10,000 or more. Who cares about weed?

Probably the parents and families of those who dies think the same as you, right?


So you rely on cut copy paste sort of just 60 years old borrowed constitution headed by morons? I don't.
No, I rely on 3 years of hard work of condensing local and globally accepted laws into one big constitution done by a very able man called Ambedkar along with a crack team. He probably did more for the country than all the members here put together.


Can you marry a Swaich girl? If not why?
If I wasn't married already, I can after ascertaining if there is no know common ancestor in the last 3-4 generations. Quick, call the Siwach Sarv Khap!

swaich
June 22nd, 2012, 04:03 PM
Put same gotra in google and copy paste here? case 1 not same gotra, case 3 not same gotra, case 4 not enough info. case 2 i knew before as the only same gotra. Do u really understand what are you talking about?

The same-gotra logic was used. "These two gotras are supposed to be related, so dont marry with each other!"

VirJ
June 22nd, 2012, 04:05 PM
If I wasn't married already, I can after ascertaining if there is no know common ancestor in the last 3-4 generations. Quick, call the Siwach Sarv Khap!

यानि अपने सड़ दादे की छोरी त ब्याह कर सके हे तू फेर तेरा के जिक्र भाई ?

VirJ
June 22nd, 2012, 04:06 PM
The same-gotra logic was used. "These two gotras are supposed to be related, so dont marry with each other!"

Same gotra is same gotra there is no other logic. Bhaichara norms and guhand are diff. I dont think you have any basic understanding.

Samarkadian
June 22nd, 2012, 04:07 PM
Probably the parents and families of those who dies think the same as you, right?

Again, who cares.



No, I rely on 3 years of hard work of condensing local and globally accepted laws into one big constitution done by a very able man called Ambedkar along with a crack team. He probably did more for the country than all the members here put together.

That was a hard work? really? How that genius can turn a blind eye to North Indian thousand's years practiced traditions? Your standards of rating are quite low Gentleman.



If I wasn't married already, I can after ascertaining if there is no know common ancestor in the last 3-4 generations. Quick, call the Siwach Sarv Khap!

A little correction, Siwach could be a khap but not Sarv Khap. And yes if you marry, with all due respect shame on you!

swaich
June 22nd, 2012, 04:16 PM
Again, who cares.
Pretty convenient. Perhaps when it will hit closer home, you'd realize.





That was a hard work? really? How that genius can turn a blind eye to North Indian thousand's years practiced traditions? Your standards of rating are quite low Gentleman.
As compared to what? Yours? Who believes laws set hundreds of years ago and dont account for any changes in society since then?





A little correction, Siwach could be a khap but not Sarv Khap. And yes if you marry, with all due respect shame on you!

Thank for the correction. Reach them yet?

Perhaps the one who should be ashamed is the one who condones the deaths of people, just to justify his false beliefs.

swaich
June 22nd, 2012, 04:20 PM
यानि अपने सड़ दादे की छोरी त ब्याह कर सके हे तू फेर तेरा के जिक्र भाई ?

Whatever Sarh dada means. Does that mean you dont want to continue the discussion?


Same gotra is same gotra there is no other logic. Bhaichara norms and guhand are diff. I dont think you have any basic understanding.

Khaps still rule and pass draconic judgements based on Gotra linkages.The point stands.

swaich
June 22nd, 2012, 04:34 PM
I think we have reached a stage where we will probably resort to personal comments (we already have) if the discussion continues. Its best to avoid this thread unless someone brings up a new point/angle to the issue.

cutejaatsandeep
June 22nd, 2012, 04:52 PM
I think we have reached a stage where we will probably resort to personal comments (we already have) if the discussion continues. Its best to avoid this thread unless someone brings up a new point/angle to the issue.
the way u are talking 1 thing i can definately make out that you are not a jat...a jat can do anythin in this world but he'll never marry in his own gotra....some times too much of education can be destructive for a community and same is happening with us..

prashantacmet
June 22nd, 2012, 04:56 PM
I think we have reached a stage where we will probably resort to personal comments (we already have) if the discussion continues. Its best to avoid this thread unless someone brings up a new point/angle to the issue.
You are just overshadowed by Bhappe driver media!..don't you?..and believe me you r not so acquainted with this khap and bhai chara so better to stop arguing baselessly :). What's the need to change an old tradition when it is still convincing to an overwhelming population..if old things are hard to carry..go get rid of religious belief first...thes ereligions had been created thousands of years ago..why still are carrying that burden?..Mohhamamed said something thousands years ago still40% of the world population is carrying his words....Guru gobind singh asked to put on "kesh kada kangha kachh kripaan" due to circumstances of 400 years before....to protect themselves in war..why a huge people of sikhs is still following that?..why don'y you educate people about it that there is no use of these things in this modern time..you are scared......... Hmm...you will be accused of blasphemy , may be ostracized or killed!...Ram/krishan were born thousands of year ago..still people are celebrating diwali..??
so if above things are still going on what's wrong in following our traditions..and how are we culprit?

swaich
June 22nd, 2012, 05:09 PM
the way u are talking 1 thing i can definately make out that you are not a jat...a jat can do anythin in this world but he'll never marry in his own gotra....some times too much of education can be destructive for a community and same is happening with us..

There is no such thing as too much of education. We educate ourselves everyday via experiences, books, acquaintances etc. The day you will realize this would be a revelation for you. :)

swaich
June 22nd, 2012, 05:16 PM
You are just overshadowed by Bhappe driver media!..don't you?..and believe me you r not so acquainted with this khap and bhai chara so better to stop arguing baselessly :). What's the need to change an old tradition when it is still convincing to an overwhelming population..if old things are hard to carry..go get rid of religious belief first...thes ereligions had been created thousands of years ago..why still are carrying that burden?..Mohhamamed said something thousands years ago still40% of the world population is carrying his words....Guru gobind singh asked to put on "kesh kada kangha kachh kripaan" due to circumstances of 400 years before....to protect themselves in war..why a huge people of sikhs is still following that?..why don'y you educate people about it that there is no use of these things in this modern time..you are scared......... Hmm...you will be accused of blasphemy , may be ostracized or killed!...Ram/krishan were born thousands of year ago..still people are celebrating diwali..??
so if above things are still going on what's wrong in following our traditions..and how are we culprit?

So you now know enough about me to pass judgements about me?

What has my religion or Guru Gobind's teachings got to do with anything discussed here? if you are too interested, open a thread and I will respond. What you are using is called a strawman argument. Just because my religion/community has some points that are debatable, all of my views and opinions are untrue, right? But I will respond nevertheless -

Regarding tradition, even with respect to religion, we pick and choose dont we? Depending upon our conveniences. So should be the case be with customs. But at the end of the day it has to be personal choice. Maybe I keep Kesh and wear a turban, maybe I dont. Thats upto me. Yes, Guru Gobind Singh asked all Sikhs to wear the 5 Ks. They also asked a lot of other things all mentioned in the Granth Sahib. Does everybody follow all of them? People pick and choose and that should be the way to practice religion. No one should be forced to adopt a custom or practice. I am thankful my parents gave me the choice to do so.

Samarkadian
June 22nd, 2012, 05:18 PM
I think we have reached a stage where we will probably resort to personal comments (we already have) if the discussion continues. Its best to avoid this thread unless someone brings up a new point/angle to the issue.

What about you working with TOI? :suspicion:

swaich
June 22nd, 2012, 05:19 PM
What about you working with TOI? :suspicion:

Or Satyamev Jayete!

Samarkadian
June 22nd, 2012, 05:19 PM
Pretty convenient. Perhaps when it will hit closer home, you'd realize.





As compared to what? Yours? Who believes laws set hundreds of years ago and dont account for any changes in society since then?






Thank for the correction. Reach them yet?

Perhaps the one who should be ashamed is the one who condones the deaths of people, just to justify his false beliefs.

False beliefs? Compared to what?

prashantacmet
June 22nd, 2012, 05:29 PM
So you now know enough about me to pass judgements about me?

What has my religion or Guru Gobind's teachings got to do with anything discussed here? if you are too interested, open a thread and I will respond. What you are using is called a strawman argument. Just because my religion/community has some points that are debatable, all of my views and opinions are untrue, right? But I will respond nevertheless -

Regarding tradition, even with respect to religion, we pick and choose dont we? Depending upon our conveniences. So should be the case be with customs. But at the end of the day it has to be personal choice. Maybe I keep Kesh and wear a turban, maybe I dont. Thats upto me. Yes, Guru Gobind Singh asked all Sikhs to wear the 5 Ks. They also asked a lot of other things all mentioned in the Granth Sahib. Does everybody follow all of them? People pick and choose and that should be the way to practice religion. No one should be forced to adopt a custom or practice. I am thankful my parents gave me the choice to do so.

you were so quick and quite annoyed in responding. you just closed your eyes and did not read what i wanted you to read..I also wrote about Islam and Ram/krishna..but you did not see that.now first let me clarify you i have nothing against your religion..you and me are same..JAT..religion comes second for me , race first..except our village all 5 villages of our gotra are sikhs..and we still have dense bhai-chara and affection irrespective of religion..But this is how people lose their nerves when some one assault on their believes..and you are attacking on khap believes in the same way...hope u get something now!

VirJ
June 22nd, 2012, 05:36 PM
I think he is the same journalist from chandigarh who work for TOI. Just avoid him. i had my doubts before now its clear.

swaich
June 22nd, 2012, 05:38 PM
you were so quick and quite annoyed in responding. you just closed your eyes and did not read what i wanted you to read..I also wrote about Islam and Ram/krishna..but you did not see that.now first let me clarify you i have nothing against your religion..you and me are same..JAT..religion comes second for me , race first..except our village all 5 villages of our gotra are sikhs..and we still have dense bhai-chara and affection irrespective of religion..But this is how people lose their nerves when some one assault on their believes..and you are attacking on khap believes in the same way...hope u get something now!

I was quick but wasn't annoyed at all. I have been at forums for 10 years now and know stamping furiously on the keyboard wont solve anything.

I responded about Sikhism because that's the religion I know the most. I cant profess to be an expert on Hinduism or Islam. I have studied Sikhism to understand its meanings though I cany say I am an expert.

And I agree Jats aren't pro-religion. If you'd remember my post on another thread I had mentioned how Jats are the least religious amongst Sikhs. Regarding an assault on the beliefs, you should read all my posts on this thread. I started out posting in a very understanding manner but I saw people got too defensive and began accusations. Rest I feel one should always express their views even if everybody else thinks otherwise. One just needs to talk logically.

swaich
June 22nd, 2012, 05:40 PM
I think he is the same journalist from chandigarh who work for TOI. Just avoid him. i had my doubts before now its clear.

What journalist? Can somebody please tell me who am I suspected to be? I cant resist laughing though. ;)

DrRajpalSingh
June 22nd, 2012, 05:43 PM
No, I rely on 3 years of hard work of condensing local and globally accepted laws into one big constitution done by a very able man called Ambedkar along with a crack team. .....


Undoubtedly Ambedkar did contribute a lot in drafting the constitution, but explain what do you mean by 'Crack team.' Are you really aware what you are saying about the great founding fathers of our constitution, the members of the Constituent Assembly!!

swaich
June 22nd, 2012, 05:50 PM
Undoubtedly Ambedkar did contribute a lot in drafting the constitution, but explain what do you mean by 'Crack team.' Are you really aware what you are saying about the great founding fathers of our constitution, the members of the Constituent Assembly!!

Sir, crack means 'well trained/one of the best'. Its a military lingo, though used more in the western media. Eg. "A crack team of commandos assaulted the complex and freed the hostages."

But I am surprised you found a fault in my post but saw nothing objectionable in the post I quoted in my original post!!

prashantacmet
June 22nd, 2012, 05:51 PM
I was quick but wasn't annoyed at all. I have been at forums for 10 years now and know stamping furiously on the keyboard wont solve anything.

I responded about Sikhism because that's the religion I know the most. I cant profess to be an expert on Hinduism or Islam. I have studied Sikhism to understand its meanings though I cany say I am an expert.

And I agree Jats aren't pro-religion. If you'd remember my post on another thread I had mentioned how Jats are the least religious amongst Sikhs. Regarding an assault on the beliefs, you should read all my posts on this thread. I started out posting in a very understanding manner but I saw people got too defensive and began accusations. Rest I feel one should always express their views even if everybody else thinks otherwise. One just needs to talk logically.

Btw, I almost married a Baidwan girl from Uttarakhand. :) They were originally from Ludhiana but had settled in Rudrapur area for about 2 generations.
Hmm..tu to riste-daar likdya...:)by the way wo log basically ludhiyana ke bhi nahi honge..baidwan has just four villages in punjab all are in chandigarh..sohana, kumbra, mataur and mauli....pata karna kaun sa pind hai unka.:)

swaich
June 22nd, 2012, 05:54 PM
Hmm..tu to riste-daar likdya...:)by the way we log basically ludhiyana ke bhi nahi honge..baidwan has just four villages in punjab..sohana, kumbra, mataur and mauli....pata karna kaun s apin dhai unka.:)

Na bhai. Ab nahi pata karwana. Varna ghar wali se bahut chittar padenge. That chapter is long closed. :)

prashantacmet
June 22nd, 2012, 05:59 PM
bhai main bichal gaya..tu to ristedaar ban sakta tha par bana koni..wo "almost" word nigaah tai likad gaya..hahahahha



tw, I almost married a Baidwan girl from Uttarakhand.

DrRajpalSingh
June 22nd, 2012, 06:40 PM
So in the section I quoted above, you chose to accept the findings
........



Kindly explain the base of your formulation of this opinion. I have neither said nor subscribe to it. Same gotra marriages must be discouraged in view of scientific studies results as well as on the basis of Indian societal values and ethos. OK.

DrRajpalSingh
June 22nd, 2012, 06:46 PM
Btw, I almost married a Baidwan girl from Uttarakhand. :) They were originally from Ludhiana but had settled in Rudrapur area for about 2 generations.

What 'almost'........!!!! Either married or did not marry. Even if you had married to the girl in question, then what that matter has to do with this thread discussion; kindly throw light.

swaich
June 22nd, 2012, 10:30 PM
Kindly explain the base of your formulation of this opinion. I have neither said nor subscribe to it. Same gotra marriages must be discouraged in view of scientific studies results as well as on the basis of Indian societal values and ethos. OK.

1. Please share these scientific studies which discourage same-gotra marriages.
2. I think Supreme Court allowed same gotra marriage 40 years back. Its only a few communities still holding on to these customs.

swaich
June 22nd, 2012, 10:32 PM
What 'almost'........!!!! Either married or did not marry. Even if you had married to the girl in question, then what that matter has to do with this thread discussion; kindly throw light.

That post was off-topic. This wasnt the first ever off topic post on this thread or any other.

DrRajpalSingh
June 22nd, 2012, 10:43 PM
That post was off-topic. This wasnt the first ever off topic post on this thread or any other.

But, you being an intelligent person, it is not expected from you to be counted among those 'others'.

DrRajpalSingh
June 22nd, 2012, 10:46 PM
1. Please share these scientific studies which discourage same-gotra marriages.
2. I think Supreme Court allowed same gotra marriage 40 years back. Its only a few communities still holding on to these customs.

For answer to 1, kindly turn to earlier posts quoted on the topic.
Regarding point 2, kindly further enlighten us about the Case no. and contents of the SC decision.

Thanks.

swaich
June 22nd, 2012, 11:28 PM
But, you being an intelligent person, it is not expected from you to be counted among those 'others'.

Thanks, I have deleted that sentence. It was unnecessary.

May I ask again, why did you only question me about that Constitution post and not the person I quoted?

swaich
June 22nd, 2012, 11:34 PM
For answer to 1, kindly turn to earlier posts quoted on the topic.
Regarding point 2, kindly further enlighten us about the Case no. and contents of the SC decision.

Thanks.

While I look for posts on scientific studies. You can check out these two links for Point 2 -

1. http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2010-05-15/india/28311339_1_gotra-khap-marriage. This was the 1945 judgement. Though it spoke about Brahmin gotras, it does allow same-gotra marriages.

2. http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Delhi/article472462.ece



In his petitioner, Mr. Kadyan submitted that marriage within the same gotra was against Hindu traditions. He urged the Court to direct the Union Government to appoint a commission to suggest desired amendments to the Act.However, when the Bench asked him to cite any Hindu scripture which bans marriage within the same gotra, the petitioner failed to quote any. Observing that the petitioner was wasting the precious time of the Court, the Bench said when he could not substantiate his submission he should not move a court.

swaich
June 22nd, 2012, 11:49 PM
For answer to 1, kindly turn to earlier posts quoted on the topic.

Thanks.

If you meant this post of yours, I hardly found anything verifiable. Just some vague references. I had hoped for something better.


Commenting on the issues raised in the Satyamev Jayate in 'Letters to the Editor' column Dr. Prem Singh Dahiya from Rohtak writes under caption, Disapproved by science' to shed light on the scientific aspect of intra-gotra marriages and why they are acceptable to the Jats and other Indian communities.

He goes on to state that ''All communities, be it Jats, Brahmins or others in Haryana or elsewhere do not marry in the same gotra [lineage], which means persons considered descendants of the same sage. Same gotra marriages fall within the parameters of consanguineous marriages. According to medical science research such marriages can result in any one of over 250 genetic diseases. The Arab countries are experiencing the burnt of it in the worst form as per information available on the internet.
He goes on to site Prof. JBS Haldane, an internationally renowned British bilogist, who has said that ''the Hindu way of marriage is highly scientific being a check on inbreeding, characterized by exhibition of regressive characters in the progeny.'' .......

For his views on inter caste marriage and other related details, kindly log in www.tribuneindia.com (http://www.tribuneindia.com/)

The Tribune, dated June 15, 2012 Chandigarh edition, p. 8.

AbhikRana
June 23rd, 2012, 03:27 AM
There have been numerous studies done in the field of genetics which establish beyond doubt the fact that in-breeding over a long period of time leads to the expression of few dominant traits quite a few of which might be detrimental to the life form/beings - whether plants or animals.

I guess all of us as educated beings have read in the newspapers at least in some detail, the breeding programs of plants to produce high yielding and disease resistant varieties used for the purpose of food and SIMILARLY the breeding programs of the Jersey cow and Indian cow/bull thereby producing varieties or breeds of robust animals which give higher milk yield and at the same time sturdiness as per the Indian conditions in the animals as one of the traits.

If we still want to ignore and look the other way as far as these facts of genetics and in-breeding is concerned, it is our choice thereby bringing to the fore our choice of wanting to live in a fool's paradise.

cutejaatsandeep
June 23rd, 2012, 09:55 PM
There is no such thing as too much of education. We educate ourselves everyday via experiences, books, acquaintances etc. The day you will realize this would be a revelation for you. :)
bro sorry to say but i hav seen dis world more thn u....i might b younger tooo u....but still hav travelled a lot....hav lots of jat frdss....i hav find 1 thing common in about 80% highly educated jats that they dont wana marry in there own community...these khaps and jat traditions starts bothering them...i dont understand y?i think even u dont know much about khaps and jat tradition...u should gain some knowledge about them...m sure tht would definately change your perception towards them..cheerzz

swaich
June 23rd, 2012, 10:34 PM
There have been numerous studies done in the field of genetics which establish beyond doubt the fact that in-breeding over a long period of time leads to the expression of few dominant traits quite a few of which might be detrimental to the life form/beings - whether plants or animals.

I guess all of us as educated beings have read in the newspapers at least in some detail, the breeding programs of plants to produce high yielding and disease resistant varieties used for the purpose of food and SIMILARLY the breeding programs of the Jersey cow and Indian cow/bull thereby producing varieties or breeds of robust animals which give higher milk yield and at the same time sturdiness as per the Indian conditions in the animals as one of the traits.

If we still want to ignore and look the other way as far as these facts of genetics and in-breeding is concerned, it is our choice thereby bringing to the fore our choice of wanting to live in a fool's paradise.

Could you define in-breeding first? If Jats have been marrying with Jats for 1000 years, arent they already one of the most in-bred communities? So should we first start marrying outside to prevent any genetic diseases? Read some other posts on page 6 and 7 of this thread and you will gain a lot of knowledge about genetics in the same gotra issue. And then you can tell me who is living in a fool's paradise.

swaich
June 23rd, 2012, 10:48 PM
bro sorry to say but i hav seen dis world more thn u....i might b younger tooo u....but still hav travelled a lot...

I am surprised you can say that without even knowing me! Well could be you are right, could be not. We will never know as we dont know each other.


.I hav lots of jat frdss....i hav find 1 thing common in about 80% highly educated jats that they dont wana marry in there own community...these khaps and jat traditions starts bothering them...i dont understand y?i think even u dont know much about khaps and jat tradition...u should gain some knowledge about them...m sure tht would definately change your perception towards them..cheerzz
So you have still not figured out why most of your educated Jat friends do not want to marry within your community. That is understandable. As we get educated, our world open up. We meet new people, interact explore new lands, cultures civilizations. This gives us an ability to compare and analyze one's own culture with others. So an uneducated person will think his culture is the best. All its customs, traditions are for the good only because he doesnt know any better. But an educated person will be able to analyze and pick and choose the aspects of his culture that suit him.

Brother, we can argue about genetics customs etc. But in the end it all boil downs to change. People change, times change and cultures change. If there's an aspect of the traditions that is not concurrent with the current time it will be discontinued by the people. This discontinuation can be both voluntary or somewhat forced.

Take the case of Sati. You might say this is a very extreme example, but 200 years ago it was a tradition. People probably took pride in it and women doing it were worshipped as Devis. But some intellectuals and pioneers understood that it has to go as it makes no sense. At the same time the British. govt banned it. So people gradually stopped doing it. Now we find the practice absurd. I believe so will be the case with many customs like same-gotra marriage just practiced in the name of tradition. They will die their own death.

rakeshsehrawat
June 23rd, 2012, 10:54 PM
अरे यू मुर्दा कुनसे ने पाड्या???

cutejaatsandeep
June 23rd, 2012, 11:31 PM
I am surprised you can say that without even knowing me! Well could be you are right, could be not. We will never know as we dont know each other.


So you have still not figured out why most of your educated Jat friends do not want to marry within your community. That is understandable. As we get educated, our world open up. We meet new people, interact explore new lands, cultures civilizations. This gives us an ability to compare and analyze one's own culture with others. So an uneducated person will think his culture is the best. All its customs, traditions are for the good only because he doesnt know any better. But an educated person will be able to analyze and pick and choose the aspects of his culture that suit him.

Brother, we can argue about genetics customs etc. But in the end it all boil downs to change. People change, times change and cultures change. If there's an aspect of the traditions that is not concurrent with the current time it will be discontinued by the people. This discontinuation can be both voluntary or somewhat forced.

Take the case of Sati. You might say this is a very extreme example, but 200 years ago it was a tradition. People probably took pride in it and women doing it were worshipped as Devis. But some intellectuals and pioneers understood that it has to go as it makes no sense. At the same time the British. govt banned it. So people gradually stopped doing it. Now we find the practice absurd. I believe so will be the case with many customs like same-gotra marriage just practiced in the name of tradition. They will die their own death.
bro read history jats were always against sati pratha and we jats were always in favour of widow remarriage.....all other omunities followw brahmin's tradition.but not jats....u should read more about our culture and traditions..there is a very old saying "half a knowledge is useless and it is very dangerous".......instead of writing here i believe you should read books on jat history...cheerzz

swaich
June 23rd, 2012, 11:49 PM
bro read history jats were always against sati pratha and we jats were always in favour of widow remarriage.....all other omunities followw brahmin's tradition.but not jats....u should read more about our culture and traditions..there is a very old saying "half a knowledge is useless and it is very dangerous".......instead of writing here i believe you should read books on jat history...cheerzz

I meant it as a general example. Sadly you didnt get my point.

cutejaatsandeep
June 23rd, 2012, 11:52 PM
I meant it as a general example. Sadly you didnt get my point.
we are here to talk about jats and dere traditions...u gave a wrong example.....i dont believe in wat brahmins do...

swaich
June 23rd, 2012, 11:55 PM
we are here to talk about jats and dere traditions...u gave a wrong example.....i dont believe in wat brahmins do...

The example wasnt about Brahmins. It was to explain how customs change with time. Now please try reading it again and apply it to the same-gotra issue.

rekhasmriti
June 24th, 2012, 12:06 AM
I guess education - chnage ur perception

that make u question urselves- the relevance of those of customs n rituals

n justification of ostrasize such couples

after getting education - it is already too much pressure of job- expenses-promotion-career- future prospects

so we do not want to get us bothered by those khaps- n jat customs

let me marry some non-jat- do din naraz hoyenge gahrwale- phir man hi jayenge

very typical dialogue of such families of which i was witness"

" sath kam karta hai - theek hai pasand karte hai- ab unki zindagi hai- humne bhi mana nahi kiya-
ladka bhi acha hai - apna ghar hai- gadi bhi - bas theek hai"

there is one more
" one of my colleague happen to get married to jat gal - they are happy - but its been 3 years he has never been to his wife's house"

so sab type ke examples hai sir

but even i would prefer to marry non-jat- atleast gotra wala scene ka koi chance nahi

n these all khaps- customs- se long gone

Regards,









bro sorry to say but i hav seen dis world more thn u....i might b younger tooo u....but still hav travelled a lot....hav lots of jat frdss....i hav find 1 thing common in about 80% highly educated jats that they dont wana marry in there own community...these khaps and jat traditions starts bothering them...i dont understand y?i think even u dont know much about khaps and jat tradition...u should gain some knowledge about them...m sure tht would definately change your perception towards them..cheerzz

rekhasmriti
June 24th, 2012, 12:07 AM
Awesome-------that sati wala example sir



I am surprised you can say that without even knowing me! Well could be you are right, could be not. We will never know as we dont know each other.


So you have still not figured out why most of your educated Jat friends do not want to marry within your community. That is understandable. As we get educated, our world open up. We meet new people, interact explore new lands, cultures civilizations. This gives us an ability to compare and analyze one's own culture with others. So an uneducated person will think his culture is the best. All its customs, traditions are for the good only because he doesnt know any better. But an educated person will be able to analyze and pick and choose the aspects of his culture that suit him.

Brother, we can argue about genetics customs etc. But in the end it all boil downs to change. People change, times change and cultures change. If there's an aspect of the traditions that is not concurrent with the current time it will be discontinued by the people. This discontinuation can be both voluntary or somewhat forced.

Take the case of Sati. You might say this is a very extreme example, but 200 years ago it was a tradition. People probably took pride in it and women doing it were worshipped as Devis. But some intellectuals and pioneers understood that it has to go as it makes no sense. At the same time the British. govt banned it. So people gradually stopped doing it. Now we find the practice absurd. I believe so will be the case with many customs like same-gotra marriage just practiced in the name of tradition. They will die their own death.

swaich
June 24th, 2012, 01:31 AM
I guess education - chnage ur perception

that make u question urselves- the relevance of those of customs n rituals

n justification of ostrasize such couples

after getting education - it is already too much pressure of job- expenses-promotion-career- future prospects

so we do not want to get us bothered by those khaps- n jat customs

let me marry some non-jat- do din naraz hoyenge gahrwale- phir man hi jayenge

very typical dialogue of such families of which i was witness"

" sath kam karta hai - theek hai pasand karte hai- ab unki zindagi hai- humne bhi mana nahi kiya-
ladka bhi acha hai - apna ghar hai- gadi bhi - bas theek hai"

there is one more
" one of my colleague happen to get married to jat gal - they are happy - but its been 3 years he has never been to his wife's house"

so sab type ke examples hai sir

but even i would prefer to marry non-jat- atleast gotra wala scene ka koi chance nahi

n these all khaps- customs- se long gone

Regards,

That is correct. Slowly and slowly differences between communities and cultures are going to melt away.

10 years now, if this forum is around (it should be as it presents a tremendous platform) we might be amazed to look back and realize that so many of us were justifying same-gotra marriage.

Samarkadian
June 24th, 2012, 02:58 AM
That is correct. Slowly and slowly differences between communities and cultures are going to melt away.

10 years now, if this forum is around (it should be as it presents a tremendous platform) we might be amazed to look back and realize that so many of us were justifying same-gotra marriage.

Well Einstein, I rest my case.

Samarkadian
June 24th, 2012, 03:02 AM
I guess education - chnage ur perception


Regards,

Yes, you are right. I am curious about your English teacher?

rekhasmriti
June 24th, 2012, 03:27 AM
hahahhahahahh- again most unpredictable


n if you won't mind sir

in what regards???????????????????/

yar itni buri nahi hai meri angrezi

still curious wat made u say that



now plz don't tell me that was becoz of incorrect spelling of " Change "

aur aisa hai bhi , toh bhi mat bolna

i think so highly of u- kinda admire ur intellegence

i can not expect that on basis on that petty thing u passed such comment






Yes, you are right. I am curious about your English teacher?

ygulia
June 24th, 2012, 06:32 AM
It is not only spelling mistakes but grammatical too.



hahahhahahahh- again most unpredictable


n if you won't mind sir

in what regards???????????????????/

yar itni buri nahi hai meri angrezi

still curious wat made u say that



now plz don't tell me that was becoz of incorrect spelling of " Change "

aur aisa hai bhi , toh bhi mat bolna

i think so highly of u- kinda admire ur intellegence

i can not expect that on basis on that petty thing u passed such comment

VirJ
June 24th, 2012, 07:26 AM
Whatever Sarh dada means. Does that mean you dont want to continue the discussion?



तू तेरे सड दादे की पोती त ब्याह करन ने तयार स तेरे त में के बहस करूँ. अगली मांग थारी होगी सागी परदादे की पोती त ब्याह हर फेर सागी दादा हार बाप प आ जाओगे. गू में डले मारण त छींटे तो मुह पे ही लगा करे हे

swaich
June 24th, 2012, 12:38 PM
Well Einstein, I rest my case.
Suit yourself.

swaich
June 24th, 2012, 12:47 PM
तू तेरे सड दादे uकी पोती त ब्याह करन ने तयार स तेरे त में के बहसकरूँ. अगली मांग थारी होगी सागी परदादे की पोती त ब्याह हर फेर सागी दादा हार बाप प आ जाओगे. गू में डले मारण त छींटे तो मुह पे ही लगा करे हे
Making personal comments is always first recourse when one has lost the argument. Sorry to see a member with 1000s of posts has to drop to this level.

VirJ
June 24th, 2012, 01:23 PM
You yourself has mentioned that you have no problem marrying in your lineage as long as you dont have common ancestor 3-4 generation back. I am just bit disappointed with an intellect like you not angry. You claimed you know jatts who has done same gotra marriages and there are enough cases in media. I also know some Jatts from both side of the border so far no one has told me this. When I asked you to prove you couldnt find any except one which we all knew about. Debate cannot be run based on your perceptions, your hypothetical examples. It has been proved that you have no knowldge of what you talking about and now you said that you are ready to marry your sister (to me she would be your sister, I know you will call her wife).

Is there anything left to discuss?

The biggest joke is you telling me I have lost my arguments. Just to prove your point you publically agreed to marry you sister. You are just making fool of yourself. I dont want to go to that level and discuss it further. I have read this post 2 days back if I would have lost agruments or was I angry I would have replied same day. I would against say I cannot and dont want to discuss it with you any more and I dont care if you think that I have lost the agrument.

swaich
June 24th, 2012, 01:33 PM
You yourself has mentioned that you have no problem marrying in your lineage as long as you dont have common ancestor 3-4 generation back. I am just bit disappointed with an intellect like you not angry. You claimed you know jatts who has done same gotra marriages and there are enough cases in media. When I asked you to prove you couldnt find any except one which we all knew about. Debate cannot be run based on your perceptions, your hypothetical examples. It has been proved that you have no knowldge of what you talking about and now you said that you are ready to marry your sister (to me she would be your sister, I know you will call her wife).

Is there anything left to discuss?

The biggest joke is you telling me I have lost my arguments. Just to prove your point you publically agreed to marry you point. You are just making fool of yourself. I just said I dont want to go to that level and discuss it further. I have read this post 2 days back if I would have lost agruments or was I angry I would have replied same day. I would against say I cannot and dont want to discuss it with you any more and I dont care if you think that I have lost the agrument.

You are right, there's nothing left to discuss. That is the difference between me and you. You feel being a Jatt is all about following all customs and traditions blindly. Not to question anything, even if it beats logic. Well I think differently. I believe as adults, we must only follow what feels right to us.

Till now no scientific proof of same-gotra marriage being bad for the future generation as been published. You call all you same gotra girls sisters, but marry some one whom your family member married a few generations ago. Hows that?

Perhaps the fool is the one with his eyes closed. One who realizes that his community is backward but doesnt want to evaluate the social customs and lack of education hampering its growth.

rekhasmriti
June 24th, 2012, 05:49 PM
well in that case sir
in the beginning i was very particular about grammer n all jass

if u have time u can chk thread started by me " Feedback"

but then - some of my fellow JLs suggested me

ma'am- views matter- no language n no grammer - so please refrain urself from finding grammar msitakes

mei toh bas apne seniors ko follow kar rahi thi

taht too when- i also find their point logical

we are not here for some english class-
rather to share our views





It is not only spelling mistakes but grammatical too.

cutejaatsandeep
June 24th, 2012, 09:23 PM
The example wasnt about Brahmins. It was to explain how customs change with time. Now please try reading it again and apply it to the same-gotra issue.
bhai seedhi baat yaa see kee apnneee gooot mai to byaah koni hon deee....aab iske against chahai jo marzi ho.....i am proud of being a jaat...m proud of jat history,our ancestors who sacrificed there lives to save our religion from katwas and will always follow traditions and i believe who try to break it should be killed...its as simple as that..u can marrry ur sister but we cant.

rekhasmriti
June 25th, 2012, 12:36 AM
way to strong views-

i kinda like the strong gesture of urs

even i m with u buddy-
same gotra mei shadi- Super Big No


"who try to break it should be killed"

but yar mei apne bete ko fansi na chadhne doongi agar us bechare se anjane mei yeh galti ho gayee







bhai seedhi baat yaa see kee apnneee gooot mai to byaah koni hon deee....aab iske against chahai jo marzi ho.....i am proud of being a jaat...m proud of jat history,our ancestors who sacrificed there lives to save our religion from katwas and will always follow traditions and i believe who try to break it should be killed...its as simple as that..u can marrry ur sister but we cant.

rinkusheoran
June 25th, 2012, 05:56 AM
way to strong views-

i kinda like the strong gesture of urs

even i m with u buddy-
same gotra mei shadi- Super Big No


"who try to break it should be killed"

but yar mei apne bete ko fansi na chadhne doongi agar us bechare se anjane mei yeh galti ho gayee


Kahte hain , "Maa pe putt pita bhi ghora , ghanna nhi to thoda thoda", so it all about upbringing rather than anything else.

ygulia
June 25th, 2012, 06:49 AM
I think there is no need to talk about killing and revenge here but it is true that getting married in same gotra is a sin. Parents are responsible for it because they did not teach their children about it. It is my personal opinion and every person has a right to differ with it.

prashantacmet
June 25th, 2012, 12:20 PM
It is not only spelling mistakes but grammatical too.

and REKHA can not speak hindi..i guess we all should learn spanish to talk with REKHA G

rekhasmriti
June 25th, 2012, 12:55 PM
so u r accusing those people of not giving proper education n knowledge of their customs to their children

kaun apne bachon ko aisa kuch sikkhayega-

jiska result so dreadful hoga?????????


i kinda disagree-
yeh quote pehle zamane mei chalta hoga aaj nai sir



Kahte hain , "Maa pe putt pita bhi ghora , ghanna nhi to thoda thoda", so it all about upbringing rather than anything else.

rekhasmriti
June 25th, 2012, 12:58 PM
kya bat -hai??????????

u knew i know little spanish

hablo espanol un poco y escrito espanol un poco


u remember that

nahi yar---aap sare kyun spanish seekhoge

mei akeli hi hindi seelh loongi

waise bhi-

yar bahut solid wali nahi aati-

but itni toh aati hai ki i can express my views

:) :) :) :) :)







and REKHA can not speak hindi..i guess we all should learn spanish to talk with REKHA G

rekhasmriti
June 25th, 2012, 01:00 PM
hmmmmmmmmmmmm

i kinda disagree

its not upbringing or parents did not tell abt same to their kids

yeh customs- bade natural types hai

jo khud hi paat chal jate hai


later on if we change our view towards same------- then it our sole responsibilty

parents n family not responsible for same at all




I think there is no need to talk about killing and revenge here but it is true that getting married in same gotra is a sin. Parents are responsible for it because they did not teach their children about it. It is my personal opinion and every person has a right to differ with it.

swaich
June 25th, 2012, 02:24 PM
bhai seedhi baat yaa see kee apnneee gooot mai to byaah koni hon deee....aab iske against chahai jo marzi ho.....i am proud of being a jaat...m proud of jat history,our ancestors who sacrificed there lives to save our religion from katwas and will always follow traditions and i believe who try to break it should be killed...its as simple as that..u can marrry ur sister but we cant.

So questioning a few customs or traditions is the same as not taking pride in Jatt history? Who told you that?

And where did this issue about Muslims come in? I am sure you know there are Muslim Jatts too. Jatts are not restricted to any one religion.

sanjeev1984
June 25th, 2012, 03:48 PM
Bhai tradition or customs pe question karo!!! jaroor karo... or unko badalne ke mehant bhi karo... but kounse tradition change karne ki jarurat hai, ispe gehan vichar karna jarori hai... jaise aaj kal kuch log nikal pade hain jhanda le kar ki mugjhe kuch to badalna hai to chlo mai ye wala custom hi change kar deta hu... kahin is ek cheez ko change karne ke chakker mai hum kisi aise raste pe na chal pade jo or bhi jayada desasterous/distructive ho...

waise "cutejaatsandeep" kuch jayada hi emotional ho gaya... or gusse mai jat history bhi le aaya, ancestors ka sacrifice bhi le aaya or end mai to killing ke favour mai bol kar "violent streak" bhi dikha di... i suggest bhai sandeep "better stay calm"... although garmi humare khoon mai hai but mera sochna hai ki khoon jitna bhi garam ho dimag hamesha thanda rehna jarori hai...

haan bhai swaich, ek baat bata humare customs and traditions future se aaye hain ya humari history se??? or agar history se aaye hain to sandeep ne us history ka jikar kar ke kya galat kar diya jiska, jo history bani hai humare purkho ke customs, traditions and sacrificies se...

waise to sandeep bhai ko muslims ko include nahi karna chahiye tha but jab aapne khud hi bol diya ki muslims mai bhi jats hote hain or vo kisi religion tak ristricted nahi hain... to fir to sab jat logo ko mila kar baat karni chahiye... correct me if i am wrong???


So questioning a few customs or traditions is the same as not taking pride in Jatt history? Who told you that?

And where did this issue about Muslims come in? I am sure you know there are Muslim Jatts too. Jatts are not restricted to any one religion.

prashantacmet
June 25th, 2012, 04:50 PM
So questioning a few customs or traditions is the same as not taking pride in Jatt history? Who told you that?

And where did this issue about Muslims come in? I am sure you know there are Muslim Jatts too. Jatts are not restricted to any one religion.
Not sure how much this is true but muslim jats also don't marry in same gotra..and dera sandeep please don't be so harsh for our muslim jats brothers without verifying the facts


Present Circumstances

The community are mainly owner cultivators, with many being substantial landowners, and inhabit villages that are exclusively Muley Jat. Animal husbandry and poultry are also secondary occupations. The Muley Jat have also have a tribal council, known as a khap (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khap) panchayat. Offences that are dealt by the tribal council include adultery, elopement, disputes over land, water and theft. Its is also used maintain a system of social control over members of the community, particularly with regards to marriage. They speak Khari Boli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khari_Boli) among themselves, and Urdu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urdu) with outsiders.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muley_Jats#cite_note-4)
The Muley Jat are mainly a community of owner cultivators, and have much in common with the other neighbouring Muslim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim) agrarian castes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste), such as the Ranghar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranghar) and Tyagi Muslim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyagi_(Muslim)). Like the Ranghar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranghar), the Muley Jat are strictly endogamous, and practice the custom of gotra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotra) and village exogamy. Their marriages customs are similar to the wider Jat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jat) community.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muley_Jats#cite_note-5)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muley_Jats

AbhikRana
June 25th, 2012, 05:30 PM
Well, the meaning of in-breeding is pretty obvious and especially so, I believe to a learned person as you are.

Of course yes, there are a few traits which besides the cultural point of view are very particular to a community which distinguishes one community from another - and mind you these traits are both, beneficial as well as detrimental. It has been scientifically proven that a few communities in and from the Sindh area suffer from certain blood disorder and the reason given for it by the scientists and doctors is the practice of marriages within a very close circle EVEN within the community - For example marriage within relations and distant relations. Hence it would not be wrong to say that the practice of non-marriage within Gotras is the right practice followed from time memorial within our community.

And as far as gaining knowledge on genetics is concerned, I think I have studied enough of genetics during my college days. But it seems despite so much of literature in the newspaper and other media and scientifically proven and accepted facts, we still want to believe JUST what we want to believe. All that can be said in such cases is PLEASE GO AHEAD. SUIT YOURSELF BY ALL MEANS.


Could you define in-breeding first? If Jats have been marrying with Jats for 1000 years, arent they already one of the most in-bred communities? So should we first start marrying outside to prevent any genetic diseases? Read some other posts on page 6 and 7 of this thread and you will gain a lot of knowledge about genetics in the same gotra issue. And then you can tell me who is living in a fool's paradise.

rakeshsehrawat
June 25th, 2012, 06:16 PM
looks like country is full of anjana's
people sleep with one another
get married in court
and they come to know about gotra of eachother when parents of girl start chasing them or kill them

and media comes with a news "ANOTHER MURDER BY KHAP"

prashantacmet
June 25th, 2012, 06:35 PM
looks like country is full of anjana's
people sleep with one another
get married in court
and they come to know about gotra of eachother when parents of girl start chasing them or kill them

and media comes with a news "ANOTHER MURDER BY KHAP"

hahahahah................This is happening like the case when a boy and a girl indulge in romantic chatting on facebook..they decide to meet and ends up being brother/sister... both were using fake IDs..let the love flourish!!

raka
June 25th, 2012, 08:13 PM
'' आवाज़ -ऐ-खलक , नगाड़ा -ऐ-खुदा ''' जनता की आवाज़ ही खुदा की आवाज़ होती हैं ,
जब 99 .9 % लोगो को इन रीती रिवाजो से दिक्कत नहीं हैं तो फिर इन .1 % लोगो के लिए अपने रीती रिवाज क्यों बदले जाए |

sanjeev_balyan
June 25th, 2012, 10:26 PM
'' आवाज़ -ऐ-खलक , नगाड़ा -ऐ-खुदा ''' जनता की आवाज़ ही खुदा की आवाज़ होती हैं ,
जब 99 .9 % लोगो को इन रीती रिवाजो से दिक्कत नहीं हैं तो फिर इन .1 % लोगो के लिए अपने रीती रिवाज क्यों बदले जाए |

असलियत मे इन्न 0.1 % लोगो को बाकी 99.9 % लोग निम्नलिखित दर्जे के नजर आवे है

दिमाग से पैदल
गँवार
जाहिल
तालिबानी टाइप
अनपढ़
बेवकूफ़
सिरफिरे
जाट जाती को घड्डो मे ले जाने वाले
-----
-----
लंबी लिस्ट है

खैर शूकर है ये 0.1 % अपने आप ने जाट तो समझे है कम से कम

sanjeev1984
June 26th, 2012, 07:31 PM
Bhai ye ek sati custom change kar ke humari society ne ek accha example set kiya tha... or kahin pe kisi ne is example ko awsome bhi bata diya... Sahi mai bahot badhiya example hai... aapne ye example de kar mera aadha kaam kar diya... actually mugjhe koi accha example dimag mai nahi aa ruha tha... :)

Aapne yahan kaha ki aapne ye example is baat ko explain karne ke liye diya ki "how customs change with time" but mere hisaab se to ye example "how" se jayada "why" ko explain karne ke liye hona chahiye... i mean "why customs should or should not change with time!!!!"

lets start... ek bar thoda study karna or hum sab ko educate karna about following things :-

1). Sati partha start kar hui? (Pehle ke to ikka-dukka case hi hain (jo facts kam hain or story jayada) but india mai jab muslim invasion suru hua tab iski sahi suruat hui or jaise-2 muslim hold india pe increase hota gaya, waise-2 is partha ne bhi joor pakadna suru kar diya... or iska reason kya tha shayad aap jante hoge...) Matlab 500-700 years pehle suru hua
2). Jab ye partha apne peak pe thi, tab percentage ke hisaab se kitni percent females ko iska victim banaya jata tha? (i dont think it would be more than 1% of total female population of india at that time) matlab ye custom population ke ek bahot choote hisse ko satisfy karta tha(may be less than even 1%, or much less than that), majority ya to iske against thi ya neutral thi...
3). is custom ka basis kya tha? koi basis nahi tha.. halaki kuch log isko follow karte the but majority iske against thi...
4). isko void kisne kiya, kyon kiya or void kyon kar dena chahiye tha??? society ne hi mil ke kiya (moral grounds pe)... kyon kiya (because ye baseless or inhumane tha)... or kar is liye dena chahiye tha ki isme kisi bekasoor ko apni jaan deni padti thi or majority ko iske violent hone ke karan satisfy or suit nahi karta tha...

ab ye sab question ab ye sab questions "same gotra" mai shaadi na karne wale custom pe apply karo :-

Origin??? No records about origin...
Acceptance in society??? jab se records abailable hain tab se majority mai log isko follow kar ruhe hain... or india mai har state mai, har community mai follow hota hai (in one form or another)... haan jaat target hote hain media ke because, jum isko rigidly follow karte hain or baki log thode lenient and easy hain (everyone follows except few...)
Basis : already explained by lots of people... genetics...
Need: is custom ki need to khud iska basis hi explain kar deta hai... is custom ko jisne follow kiya hai... i think na to kisi ko saza mili hai or na hi kisi ko koi pain hua or na kisi ki jaan gai hai... jisne follow nahi kiya problem unko hui hai (i feel sorry for them but they should not have done that)...

ab humare ek taraf to vo custom hai (sati) jisko follow karo to kisi ki jaan jaye... or ek taraf vo custom hai jisko follow karne mai koi nuksaan nahi hai... to doosre wala follow karne mai shayad koi burai nahi hai...

ab log bolte hain ki genetics wale reason se hisaab se to to intercaste shadi hi better hain... to mai ye kahounga ki theek to hai but panga to customs and values ka hi hai... for example agar mai (ek punjabi/gujarati/marathi/brahmin/muslim/harijan/rajput ya koi or community) intercaste shadi kar leta to jo humare riti-rivaj hai vo uske liye samajhne thode mushkil ho jate... or jin bato ke liye hum kuch jayada hi serious rehte hain, ho sakta hai us sab bato ko vo bahot lightly leti ya fir consider nahi nahi karti, or may bhi usko vo sab batein usko idotic lagti... (jaisa ki mere kuch dost batate hain)... in short unke beech nibhni thodi mushkil ho jati (jaisa ki mere kuch friends ke saath hua hai...)... halaki within caste shaadi 100% chalegi, iski to koi surity nahi hai but intercaste shadi ko avoid karne se, shadi ke successful hune ke bas chances thode se badh jate hain... please ab aap ye mat samajhna ki mai inter-caste shaadi ke against hu... i am ok with it but aviod kiya jaye to better hai...

further to this... sirf inter-caste hi nahi... or bhi sari cheez hoti hai consider karne ke liye... according to me, shaadi karte time jo within caste bhi barabari wala concept follow karte hain vo bhi theek hai... agar ladke or ladki ke gharwalo ke financial status mai bahot jayada difference ho to vo bhi ek un-neccessary ego develop kar deta hai... dono ke life style bhi different hote hain... way of thinking bhi alag hote hain... or different issues ho handle bhi different tarike se karte hain... or ye sari cheez hi difference create kar deti hai... (or ye baat sirf jato pe lagu nahi hoti, sab pe hoti hai)... mera maan-na hai ki.. izzat to sab ki karo but rishte karte time... financial status thoda equal sa ho to better hai... its bit like the potential difference concept of electricity, till the time two wires are apart everything is okey but once they touch eachother... there will be spark and can lead to fire... and that happens only because of potential difference...

:) mai bhi "same-gotra" shaadi se, physics tak pahunch gaya... is not it funny...

but ek custom ki baat se kitne sari or issues connect hain... bhai ye is tarah hai jaise ek bridge/building ke columns and beams, jo bahot sare nazar aate hain... kuch to gair-jarori bhi lagte hain or kuch building ki beautification mai bhi aade aate hain... or jin ko dekh ke ye lagta hai ki inme se kuch ko hata bhi de to koi farak nahi padega... building to tab bhi kadi ruhegi... but ek column ya beam ko hatane se uska sara load doosre pe chla jayega or ho sakta hai vo building hi gir jar... so meri suggestion ye hai ki agar kharcha bhi kam karna hai or building bhi khadi rukhni hai to kisi badhiya se experienced architect se consult kar lena chahiye... ho sakta hai us architect ke pass koi software na ho ye dikhane ka ki kisi particular column/bean ko remove karne se, building kaise unstable ho jayegi ya gir jayegi... but vo apne experience se, ek second mai bata dega ki vo particular column jarori hai ya nahi... or better yahi hoga ki aap bina doubt us architect ki suggestion maan lo... or aise hi humari society, culture and customs ke architects hain humare bade, humare senior, humare bujurg... to usne consult karne mai, koi sharam ya parhej nahi hona chahiye...

thanks for your time (whoever reading this)

smiles...


The example wasnt about Brahmins. It was to explain how customs change with time. Now please try reading it again and apply it to the same-gotra issue.

rekhasmriti
June 27th, 2012, 06:02 AM
sir i guess it was kinda cheap comment


no offence to anyone


hahahahah................This is happening like the case when a boy and a girl indulge in romantic chatting on facebook..they decide to meet and ends up being brother/sister... both were using fake IDs..let the love flourish!!


looks like country is full of anjana's
people sleep with one another
get married in court
and they come to know about gotra of eachother when parents of girl start chasing them or kill them

and media comes with a news "ANOTHER MURDER BY KHAP"

rekhasmriti
June 27th, 2012, 06:14 AM
" or kahin pe kisi ne is example ko awsome bhi bata diya"




sir g- that was me


" iska reason kya tha shayad aap jante hoge..."


I don't know- iske peeche bhi koi valid reason tha


i was toh thinking---coz after husband wife has got not right to live




" i am ok with it but aviod kiya jaye to better hai."


hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


" financial status thoda equal sa ho to better hai... its bit like the potential difference concept of electricity, till the time two wires are apart everything is okey but once they touch eachother... there will be spark and can lead to fire... and that happens only because of potential difference..."




agreed-----not just financial status-rathewr education-upbringing-life style sab metter karta hai a lot






issie kehte hai apni bat manwana-
architect wala example super awesome that Boss

( as i m damn busy these days----so itni badi post dekhkar- i have decided - weekend par padhoongi-----but yeh jo end apne pehli bar THANKS likha n then smiles---taht touched my heart sir--- isliye padhna pada-----n no regrets at all)




hahahahah................This is happening like the case when a boy and a girl indulge in romantic chatting on facebook..they decide to meet and ends up being brother/sister... both were using fake IDs..let the love flourish!!


Bhai ye ek sati custom change kar ke humari society ne ek accha example set kiya tha... or kahin pe kisi ne is example ko awsome bhi bata diya... Sahi mai bahot badhiya example hai... aapne ye example de kar mera aadha kaam kar diya... actually mugjhe koi accha example dimag mai nahi aa ruha tha... :)

Aapne yahan kaha ki aapne ye example is baat ko explain karne ke liye diya ki "how customs change with time" but mere hisaab se to ye example "how" se jayada "why" ko explain karne ke liye hona chahiye... i mean "why customs should or should not change with time!!!!"

lets start... ek bar thoda study karna or hum sab ko educate karna about following things :-

1). Sati partha start kar hui? (Pehle ke to ikka-dukka case hi hain (jo facts kam hain or story jayada) but india mai jab muslim invasion suru hua tab iski sahi suruat hui or jaise-2 muslim hold india pe increase hota gaya, waise-2 is partha ne bhi joor pakadna suru kar diya... or iska reason kya tha shayad aap jante hoge...) Matlab 500-700 years pehle suru hua
2). Jab ye partha apne peak pe thi, tab percentage ke hisaab se kitni percent females ko iska victim banaya jata tha? (i dont think it would be more than 1% of total female population of india at that time) matlab ye custom population ke ek bahot choote hisse ko satisfy karta tha(may be less than even 1%, or much less than that), majority ya to iske against thi ya neutral thi...
3). is custom ka basis kya tha? koi basis nahi tha.. halaki kuch log isko follow karte the but majority iske against thi...
4). isko void kisne kiya, kyon kiya or void kyon kar dena chahiye tha??? society ne hi mil ke kiya (moral grounds pe)... kyon kiya (because ye baseless or inhumane tha)... or kar is liye dena chahiye tha ki isme kisi bekasoor ko apni jaan deni padti thi or majority ko iske violent hone ke karan satisfy or suit nahi karta tha...

ab ye sab question ab ye sab questions "same gotra" mai shaadi na karne wale custom pe apply karo :-

Origin??? No records about origin...
Acceptance in society??? jab se records abailable hain tab se majority mai log isko follow kar ruhe hain... or india mai har state mai, har community mai follow hota hai (in one form or another)... haan jaat target hote hain media ke because, jum isko rigidly follow karte hain or baki log thode lenient and easy hain (everyone follows except few...)
Basis : already explained by lots of people... genetics...
Need: is custom ki need to khud iska basis hi explain kar deta hai... is custom ko jisne follow kiya hai... i think na to kisi ko saza mili hai or na hi kisi ko koi pain hua or na kisi ki jaan gai hai... jisne follow nahi kiya problem unko hui hai (i feel sorry for them but they should not have done that)...

ab humare ek taraf to vo custom hai (sati) jisko follow karo to kisi ki jaan jaye... or ek taraf vo custom hai jisko follow karne mai koi nuksaan nahi hai... to doosre wala follow karne mai shayad koi burai nahi hai...

ab log bolte hain ki genetics wale reason se hisaab se to to intercaste shadi hi better hain... to mai ye kahounga ki theek to hai but panga to customs and values ka hi hai... for example agar mai (ek punjabi/gujarati/marathi/brahmin/muslim/harijan/rajput ya koi or community) intercaste shadi kar leta to jo humare riti-rivaj hai vo uske liye samajhne thode mushkil ho jate... or jin bato ke liye hum kuch jayada hi serious rehte hain, ho sakta hai us sab bato ko vo bahot lightly leti ya fir consider nahi nahi karti, or may bhi usko vo sab batein usko idotic lagti... (jaisa ki mere kuch dost batate hain)... in short unke beech nibhni thodi mushkil ho jati (jaisa ki mere kuch friends ke saath hua hai...)... halaki within caste shaadi 100% chalegi, iski to koi surity nahi hai but intercaste shadi ko avoid karne se, shadi ke successful hune ke bas chances thode se badh jate hain... please ab aap ye mat samajhna ki mai inter-caste shaadi ke against hu... i am ok with it but aviod kiya jaye to better hai...

further to this... sirf inter-caste hi nahi... or bhi sari cheez hoti hai consider karne ke liye... according to me, shaadi karte time jo within caste bhi barabari wala concept follow karte hain vo bhi theek hai... agar ladke or ladki ke gharwalo ke financial status mai bahot jayada difference ho to vo bhi ek un-neccessary ego develop kar deta hai... dono ke life style bhi different hote hain... way of thinking bhi alag hote hain... or different issues ho handle bhi different tarike se karte hain... or ye sari cheez hi difference create kar deti hai... (or ye baat sirf jato pe lagu nahi hoti, sab pe hoti hai)... mera maan-na hai ki.. izzat to sab ki karo but rishte karte time... financial status thoda equal sa ho to better hai... its bit like the potential difference concept of electricity, till the time two wires are apart everything is okey but once they touch eachother... there will be spark and can lead to fire... and that happens only because of potential difference...

:) mai bhi "same-gotra" shaadi se, physics tak pahunch gaya... is not it funny...

but ek custom ki baat se kitne sari or issues connect hain... bhai ye is tarah hai jaise ek bridge/building ke columns and beams, jo bahot sare nazar aate hain... kuch to gair-jarori bhi lagte hain or kuch building ki beautification mai bhi aade aate hain... or jin ko dekh ke ye lagta hai ki inme se kuch ko hata bhi de to koi farak nahi padega... building to tab bhi kadi ruhegi... but ek column ya beam ko hatane se uska sara load doosre pe chla jayega or ho sakta hai vo building hi gir jar... so meri suggestion ye hai ki agar kharcha bhi kam karna hai or building bhi khadi rukhni hai to kisi badhiya se experienced architect se consult kar lena chahiye... ho sakta hai us architect ke pass koi software na ho ye dikhane ka ki kisi particular column/bean ko remove karne se, building kaise unstable ho jayegi ya gir jayegi... but vo apne experience se, ek second mai bata dega ki vo particular column jarori hai ya nahi... or better yahi hoga ki aap bina doubt us architect ki suggestion maan lo... or aise hi humari society, culture and customs ke architects hain humare bade, humare senior, humare bujurg... to usne consult karne mai, koi sharam ya parhej nahi hona chahiye...

thanks for your time (whoever reading this)

smiles...

swaich
June 30th, 2012, 02:33 PM
haan bhai swaich, ek baat bata humare customs and traditions future se aaye hain ya humari history se??? or agar history se aaye hain to sandeep ne us history ka jikar kar ke kya galat kar diya jiska, jo history bani hai humare purkho ke customs, traditions and sacrificies se...
When did I say its wrong to drag in history into the subject? And why is it thought that someone questioning current practices and customs doesnt take pride in is community's history.


waise to sandeep bhai ko muslims ko include nahi karna chahiye tha but jab aapne khud hi bol diya ki muslims mai bhi jats hote hain or vo kisi religion tak ristricted nahi hain... to fir to sab jat logo ko mila kar baat karni chahiye... correct me if i am wrong???
You are right. But I didnt get your point. How is that relevant to our discussion here? We can talk when with only the members on the forum.

swaich
June 30th, 2012, 02:38 PM
Well, the meaning of in-breeding is pretty obvious and especially so, I believe to a learned person as you are.

Of course yes, there are a few traits which besides the cultural point of view are very particular to a community which distinguishes one community from another - and mind you these traits are both, beneficial as well as detrimental. It has been scientifically proven that a few communities in and from the Sindh area suffer from certain blood disorder and the reason given for it by the scientists and doctors is the practice of marriages within a very close circle EVEN within the community - For example marriage within relations and distant relations. Hence it would not be wrong to say that the practice of non-marriage within Gotras is the right practice followed from time memorial within our community.

And as far as gaining knowledge on genetics is concerned, I think I have studied enough of genetics during my college days. But it seems despite so much of literature in the newspaper and other media and scientifically proven and accepted facts, we still want to believe JUST what we want to believe. All that can be said in such cases is PLEASE GO AHEAD. SUIT YOURSELF BY ALL MEANS.

Sir ji, aap abhi bhi genetics ko is topic ke context mein nahi samjhe hain. Marrying within a close community does causes problems, but jatts are themselves a close community. So should we stop marrying amongst jatts?

The simple logic is that after a few generations, the risk of genetic problems decreases since other gotras have mixed into your gotra. This shouldnt be too hard to understand.

swaich
June 30th, 2012, 02:56 PM
Bhai ye ek sati custom change kar ke humari society ne ek accha example set kiya tha... or kahin pe kisi ne is example ko awsome bhi bata diya... Sahi mai bahot badhiya example hai... aapne ye example de kar mera aadha kaam kar diya... actually mugjhe koi accha example dimag mai nahi aa ruha tha... :)

Aapne yahan kaha ki aapne ye example is baat ko explain karne ke liye diya ki "how customs change with time" but mere hisaab se to ye example "how" se jayada "why" ko explain karne ke liye hona chahiye... i mean "why customs should or should not change with time!!!!"

lets start... ek bar thoda study karna or hum sab ko educate karna about following things :-

1). Sati partha start kar hui? (Pehle ke to ikka-dukka case hi hain (jo facts kam hain or story jayada) but india mai jab muslim invasion suru hua tab iski sahi suruat hui or jaise-2 muslim hold india pe increase hota gaya, waise-2 is partha ne bhi joor pakadna suru kar diya... or iska reason kya tha shayad aap jante hoge...) Matlab 500-700 years pehle suru hua
2). Jab ye partha apne peak pe thi, tab percentage ke hisaab se kitni percent females ko iska victim banaya jata tha? (i dont think it would be more than 1% of total female population of india at that time) matlab ye custom population ke ek bahot choote hisse ko satisfy karta tha(may be less than even 1%, or much less than that), majority ya to iske against thi ya neutral thi...
3). is custom ka basis kya tha? koi basis nahi tha.. halaki kuch log isko follow karte the but majority iske against thi...
4). isko void kisne kiya, kyon kiya or void kyon kar dena chahiye tha??? society ne hi mil ke kiya (moral grounds pe)... kyon kiya (because ye baseless or inhumane tha)... or kar is liye dena chahiye tha ki isme kisi bekasoor ko apni jaan deni padti thi or majority ko iske violent hone ke karan satisfy or suit nahi karta tha...
1. Galat. I would say again you should read more but without forming preconceived notions. Your anti-Muslim bias is evident here. Sati didnt start 700 years ago. There are recorded incidents as old as during Alexander's invasion. And there is no correlation with Muslim invasions as your bias is making you think. In fact Mughal emperors tried curbing this practice but failed due to public pressure against interference in Hindu customs.
2. We have no way of ascertaining the percentage. How did you arrive at 1% figure?
3. Basis? Read about Sati. There was ample religious basis and thats why women did it or were pressurized to do it.
4. It was made void by both society changes and govt. pressure. It was a combined effort.


ab ye sab question ab ye sab questions "same gotra" mai shaadi na karne wale custom pe apply karo :-

Origin??? No records about origin...
Acceptance in society??? jab se records abailable hain tab se majority mai log isko follow kar ruhe hain... or india mai har state mai, har community mai follow hota hai (in one form or another)... haan jaat target hote hain media ke because, jum isko rigidly follow karte hain or baki log thode lenient and easy hain (everyone follows except few...)
Basis : already explained by lots of people... genetics...
Need: is custom ki need to khud iska basis hi explain kar deta hai... is custom ko jisne follow kiya hai... i think na to kisi ko saza mili hai or na hi kisi ko koi pain hua or na kisi ki jaan gai hai... jisne follow nahi kiya problem unko hui hai (i feel sorry for them but they should not have done that)...

ab humare ek taraf to vo custom hai (sati) jisko follow karo to kisi ki jaan jaye... or ek taraf vo custom hai jisko follow karne mai koi nuksaan nahi hai... to doosre wala follow karne mai shayad koi burai nahi hai...

ab log bolte hain ki genetics wale reason se hisaab se to to intercaste shadi hi better hain... to mai ye kahounga ki theek to hai but panga to customs and values ka hi hai... for example agar mai (ek punjabi/gujarati/marathi/brahmin/muslim/harijan/rajput ya koi or community) intercaste shadi kar leta to jo humare riti-rivaj hai vo uske liye samajhne thode mushkil ho jate... or jin bato ke liye hum kuch jayada hi serious rehte hain, ho sakta hai us sab bato ko vo bahot lightly leti ya fir consider nahi nahi karti, or may bhi usko vo sab batein usko idotic lagti... (jaisa ki mere kuch dost batate hain)... in short unke beech nibhni thodi mushkil ho jati (jaisa ki mere kuch friends ke saath hua hai...)... halaki within caste shaadi 100% chalegi, iski to koi surity nahi hai but intercaste shadi ko avoid karne se, shadi ke successful hune ke bas chances thode se badh jate hain... please ab aap ye mat samajhna ki mai inter-caste shaadi ke against hu... i am ok with it but aviod kiya jaye to better hai...

further to this... sirf inter-caste hi nahi... or bhi sari cheez hoti hai consider karne ke liye... according to me, shaadi karte time jo within caste bhi barabari wala concept follow karte hain vo bhi theek hai... agar ladke or ladki ke gharwalo ke financial status mai bahot jayada difference ho to vo bhi ek un-neccessary ego develop kar deta hai... dono ke life style bhi different hote hain... way of thinking bhi alag hote hain... or different issues ho handle bhi different tarike se karte hain... or ye sari cheez hi difference create kar deti hai... (or ye baat sirf jato pe lagu nahi hoti, sab pe hoti hai)... mera maan-na hai ki.. izzat to sab ki karo but rishte karte time... financial status thoda equal sa ho to better hai... its bit like the potential difference concept of electricity, till the time two wires are apart everything is okey but once they touch eachother... there will be spark and can lead to fire... and that happens only because of potential difference...

:) mai bhi "same-gotra" shaadi se, physics tak pahunch gaya... is not it funny...

but ek custom ki baat se kitne sari or issues connect hain... bhai ye is tarah hai jaise ek bridge/building ke columns and beams, jo bahot sare nazar aate hain... kuch to gair-jarori bhi lagte hain or kuch building ki beautification mai bhi aade aate hain... or jin ko dekh ke ye lagta hai ki inme se kuch ko hata bhi de to koi farak nahi padega... building to tab bhi kadi ruhegi... but ek column ya beam ko hatane se uska sara load doosre pe chla jayega or ho sakta hai vo building hi gir jar... so meri suggestion ye hai ki agar kharcha bhi kam karna hai or building bhi khadi rukhni hai to kisi badhiya se experienced architect se consult kar lena chahiye... ho sakta hai us architect ke pass koi software na ho ye dikhane ka ki kisi particular column/bean ko remove karne se, building kaise unstable ho jayegi ya gir jayegi... but vo apne experience se, ek second mai bata dega ki vo particular column jarori hai ya nahi... or better yahi hoga ki aap bina doubt us architect ki suggestion maan lo... or aise hi humari society, culture and customs ke architects hain humare bade, humare senior, humare bujurg... to usne consult karne mai, koi sharam ya parhej nahi hona chahiye...

thanks for your time (whoever reading this)

smiles...

I think all communities, khatri, brahmins start with avoiding same gotra percentages but slowly move away from it. The main reason for avoiding same-gotra marriage - genetics and the family set up (sisters and brothers) is void after the community grows big enough, is spread around geographically and changes like education and literacy happen. Sadly it appears the latter two are the only ones keeping this practice alive.

rakeshsehrawat
June 30th, 2012, 03:35 PM
1. Galat. I would say again you should read more but without forming preconceived notions. Your anti-Muslim bias is evident here. Sati didnt start 700 years ago. There are recorded incidents as old as during Alexander's invasion. And there is no correlation with Muslim invasions as your bias is making you think. In fact Mughal emperors tried curbing this practice but failed due to public pressure against interference in Hindu customs.
2. We have no way of ascertaining the percentage. How did you arrive at 1% figure?
3. Basis? Read about Sati. There was ample religious basis and thats why women did it or were pressurized to do it.
4. It was made void by both society changes and govt. pressure. It was a combined effort.



I think all communities, khatri, brahmins start with avoiding same gotra percentages but slowly move away from it. The main reason for avoiding same-gotra marriage - genetics and the family set up (sisters and brothers) is void after the community grows big enough, is spread around geographically and changes like education and literacy happen. Sadly it appears the latter two are the only ones keeping this practice alive.

All Pundits strictly follow it
All Baniyas strictly follow it
Punjabis and Muslims don't follow it
We should always try to move towards better not blindly start following others. We should stick to our beliefs and practices to keep a separate identity an identity of our own. We are treated differently by everyone, Muslims and Britishers avoid us. This identity is from our ancestors this is in our DNA we will never be able to suppressed by others. Even with this comment you will try to counter argument as this is in your blood also you have a belief and you think this is right but with times when these beliefs start mixing with others we will surely loose our identity.

swaich
June 30th, 2012, 03:43 PM
All Pundits strictly follow it
All Baniyas strictly follow it
Punjabis and Muslims don't follow it
We should always try to move towards better not blindly start following others. We should stick to our beliefs and practices to keep a separate identity an identity of our own. We are treated differently by everyone, Muslims and Britishers avoid us. This identity is from our ancestors this is in our DNA we will never be able to suppressed by others. Even with this comment you will try to counter argument as this is in your blood also you have a belief and you think this is right but with times when these beliefs start mixing with others we will surely loose our identity.

Identity is a fluid concept. Keeps changing with time along with the customs and traditions that define it.

sanjeev1984
June 30th, 2012, 11:34 PM
Brother, i request you not to comment on my ideology and to remind you that you are not an authority to state that i am biased or not. As i already said that i welcome the criticism but allegation will not be tolerated.If you are not agree with one of my statement than you can criticize my words, but how you can claim that i am biased and you are not biased. Muslim invaded India that is true and history. For sati ritual, see this "http://www.ivarta.com/columns/ol_060328.htm" and a number of proofs are also available over the internet and libraries. I didn't said that muslims started this custom, it was started by hindus, but because of muslims. They would have tried to stop this custom but it is true that it was started because of them.

Mugjhe pata tha ki aap percentage ki baat jaroor karogae... isi liye main pehle ki kafi clear words mai likha tha... "(i dont think it would be more than 1% of total female population of india at that time) matlab ye custom population ke ek bahot choote hisse ko satisfy karta tha(may be less than even 1%, or much less than that), majority ya to iske against thi ya neutral thi.. brother read again and fir se reply karo...

koi religious basis naahi tha... or aapko pata ho to hum sab ko batao...

bhai aapka reply incomplete and hypothetical hai... please thoda sa research kar ke complete answer dene ki kosish karo...

brother i tried explaining it in simplest and detailed way, ever with example... but aapka kisi baat ko samajhna mere samjhane se jayada is baat pe depend karta hai ki aap us cheez ko samjhne mai intrested ho ya nahi...



1. Galat. I would say again you should read more but without forming preconceived notions. Your anti-Muslim bias is evident here. Sati didnt start 700 years ago. There are recorded incidents as old as during Alexander's invasion. And there is no correlation with Muslim invasions as your bias is making you think. In fact Mughal emperors tried curbing this practice but failed due to public pressure against interference in Hindu customs.
2. We have no way of ascertaining the percentage. How did you arrive at 1% figure?
3. Basis? Read about Sati. There was ample religious basis and thats why women did it or were pressurized to do it.
4. It was made void by both society changes and govt. pressure. It was a combined effort.



I think all communities, khatri, brahmins start with avoiding same gotra percentages but slowly move away from it. The main reason for avoiding same-gotra marriage - genetics and the family set up (sisters and brothers) is void after the community grows big enough, is spread around geographically and changes like education and literacy happen. Sadly it appears the latter two are the only ones keeping this practice alive.

sanjeev1984
June 30th, 2012, 11:46 PM
do efforts... read comments... try co-relating them... main bhagwaan se prarthna karounga ki vo aapko samajhne mai aapki madad kare... waise ye sirf current practices and customes nahi hai... ye vo practices and customs hain... jinki wajah se hume aisi history mili hai jis pe hum proud karte hain... or problem tab nahi hui jab himne inko follow kiya... problem tab suru hui hai jab hum-ne inko maan-ne se mana kar diya... agar it customs or practices.. humare liye itne jayada problamatic or dangerous hote to humne ya to inka bahot saal pehle inko chood diya hota... ya fir inke karan humara existence... but it is not like that... humara exist bhi karte hain or inko follow bhi karte hain... hum time ke saath evolve bhi hue hain.. in customs ke hote huae...


When did I say its wrong to drag in history into the subject? And why is it thought that someone questioning current practices and customs doesnt take pride in is community's history.


You are right. But I didnt get your point. How is that relevant to our discussion here? We can talk when with only the members on the forum.