Martial Law in India, Need of the hour! .. your thoughts ..

[cooljat]

Hi All,

I've been observing and thinking hard about the ways to improve ever worsening condition in India, lately. After giving in deep thoughts, compare n' contrast I reached to conclusion that its high time to impose Martial Law in India to save this country to be ruined. I know most of you'll be taken surprise by my extremist thinking but believe me this is the only way to improve situations quickly.

For the first time I voted , earlier I used to hate politics like anything but I tried to be lil positive and casted my vote and hoped for the better. But as expected, situation got worse. I strongly believe Democracy is absurd in our country. Hell lot of parties, criminal candidates, bloody sucking politicians and lot more. First we cast our vote to these sucking parasites n' when they come in to power they don't lose a chance to suck our blood n' ruin the country. The gap between poor and rich ppl is ever increasing .. our GDP is growing day by day but our poor farmers are committing suicide every single minutes. Corruption is now socially acceptable .. ethics, princple and honesty don't have any place nowadays. Snail Paced Law & Order, increasing industrialization, bureaucracy and thousands of such examples that proves failure of democracy n' they say situations are improving, WTF!

Leave democracy n' politics even we Indians are literate ignorant ppl who lake civic sense and don't care about basic duties forget about patriotism but we don't leave a chance to shout out loud about our rights, freedom of expression and blame country. I think we got freedom in free therefore we don't value it and started abusing it. Thus its time to teach us a lesson and make it responsible n' disciplined.

I advocate Martial Law because you can see the visible differences if you happen to visit your City's Army Cantt. Everything is organized, clean n' tidy, Law & order is same for all, everyone is dynamic, full of zeal and disciplined. And you also are aware that where everything fails Army is called to take care of the situation. Although corruption is also in Army but it is negligible and if comes in front it is eliminated with iron feast. Look at the recent example a Brig got caught showing fake bill of Rs 4000 and he' going to face the Court Marshall soon while in democracy A neta like gauda did scam of thousands of crores and still he comes out clean. Army is the organization where Discipline, Integrity, Honesty are building blocks. Even if u compare the Musharafff's Martial Ruling period in Pakistan and China's communist Rule you'll see the big difference.

Debates, Talks, Dialogs, false promises by so called intellectuals are total failure and its time to teach ******* politicians and ignorant ppl a lesson and feel of their duties. They call its a need of improvement in system wheres I believe its need of changing the whole system. They say situations are improving, we are developing country be patient and I say you'll be history but things will get only worsen, I tell you. If you really want to save this country then impose the Martial Law there is no other quick fix.

Happy Independence Day to to the few Sensible Indians who truly value n' understand the meaning of Freedom, Jai Hind !


Think about it ! ..



Cheers
Jit

[vijay123]

Check the plight of countries where martial law is/was in force. Burma, Pakistan, Zimbabwe, several African countries, Cuba, N. Korea etc etc. That;s where the martial law leads the country to....

[Samarkadian]

What about little talked monsterous courruption going on in defence deals from sugar to furniture to Air Condition to ration to arms to promotions?

[rajpaldular]

well said Mr.Jit Takhar ..........

fully agree with you................

[cooljat]

I already mentioned about court marshal of a Brig who found guilty of showing fake bills of 4000 Rs. I never denied corruption in Army but its quite low and if someone found red handed, he'll get punishment for sure that too quickly. If your really want to talk about it then start comparing with the corroupt ministers and bureaucrats with Army officials.

Ignorant ppl don't deserve freedom which they got for free and start abusing it and teach them about their duties n' civic sense and to apply uniform law, Martial Law is the need of hour!




What about little talked monsterous courruption going on in defence deals from sugar to furniture to Air Condition to ration to arms to promotions?

[sunillathwal]

Ignorant ppl don't deserve freedom which they got for free and stop abusing it and teach them about their duties n' civic sense and to apply uniform law, Martial Law is the need of hour!


Jit bhai, Define 'Ignorant'?

[sitaram]

well Jeet .................
compeletelly agreed with u ..................
regards,

[cooljat]

.

Bhai, I already defined the traits of Educated ignorant people but if you want I do it again in easy to learn desi lingo! :)

पढ़े लिखे गंवार who lack basic civic sense, highly irresponsible and give a damn to their moral duties for country!



Jit bhai, Define 'Ignorant'?

[mukeshkumar007]

Jit, What a topic.

Well, I’m not sure what kind of Martial Law you are proposing here but irrespective to this I can easily feel your dissatisfaction with the existing system. I can understand that it is very hard to turn a blind eye for a sensible person toward the things happening here and there. It is very true that situation is getting worst day by day.
A quick review of the current state can make anyone conclude that nothing is working in the way it is expected to work. It is not democracy rather it is a finest example of the anarchy.

Well, I fully agree that no form of government is better than democracy. Democracy is a finest system. if it is fines then why it is not producing effective result in our country. Why it is continue to fail in addressing the grievance of people. Why?

The good thing with the democracy is that it is the reflexion of the society/people therefore the performance of democracy entirely depends on the quality of the people/society in which it is working. A democracy works effectively only with the 100% active and constructive participation of the public. In a democracy public is expected to be equally concerned with duties as they are with their rights.
In absence of the above scenario the democracy would seems to be proving the famous saying right that “ A democracy is just a group of 51% fool who rules over 59% intellectuals”

In India where people are getting more individualistic and self centered and running away from their duties, where corruption got social acceptance, where majority of people don’t know the importance of a vote, where election is mere a show of muscles and black money, how one can expect effective results from a democratic system.

Inspite of being fond of democracy, I don’t hesitate to accept that democracy failed miserably in addressing the problem of this Country. We had expected that democracy would bring prosperity, equality, stability and peace in the country but none of the objective is achieved, infact we have shifted ourselves on a different path that is leading the nation toward disaster.

I see many a so called intellectuals still advocating democracy in India while justying it with arguments of freedom of speech, freedom to criticize and by bringing the example of failures of other form of governments.

I agree that none of the system is fully perfect and democracy provides many rights but why the hell should I be concerned with democracy when it fails to provide me timely justice, equal opportunity, quality food and basic necessities to live my life happily.

Today India is divided into two parts. One is INDIA whose day begins and ends with multiplexes, brightening shopping malls, cafe and all sort of luxuries of the life whereas on other hand there is BHARAT a BPL bharat who continue to work hard to arrange two times of meal. One side a child play with toys whereas on other side a child of same age is forced to pick polytheans and work on teal stalls. In a family even the dog has the access of hygienic food whereas on other side there is families which even find it hard to arrange food forget about hygiene.

The gap between INDIA & BHARAT is continue to increase. Then why should I care for democracy.

And you talk about freedom of speech and freedom to criticize. Are you sure that you really enjoy it in its true spirit. These rights are very much placed in constitution but I wonder if people are really able to use them.

Agar shak hai to kisi politician ko uske samne criticize kar ke dekh lena…ya phir kisi mafia ki uske samne burai kar ke dekh liyo..ya kisi police wale ko law ki isi tesi karte huwe tok ke dekh liyo.. PATA chal jayega.. bolti band na ho ja to mujhe bataiyoo…
Therefore I strongly feel that if this system is unable to provide an eaual opportunity to all to live a good life then it is a waste. The sooner it is changed the better it is.

Most of us have access to a laptop and internet and by surfing one or two site we mistaken that we are well updated about the real picture of the country. it is easy to comment while sitting in AC rooms but very difficult to understand the pain of crores of victims of this bullshit system.

It really surprises me when I see many of us still advocating this unproductive system. can’t you just see the ground reality. are you afraid of losing your comfort zone?

We have waited almost 64 years but can’t tolerate this state of anarchy anymore. I don’t advocate martial law or any other law rather I want a system that works. I’m not sure how effective the martial law would be but it can atleast bring a change. It may atleast teach us a lesson of discipline and civic sense which we lacks totally. It may also let us feel the importance of democracy as we generally don’t feel the importance of something till it comes free of cost.

But now it is high time that we pay the price for the freedom we enjoyed and mistakes we done. I’m ready to sacrifice my part of freedom for a system that may bring result and make the nation prosper, stable and peaceful.

[kapdal]

Forget martial law, I say let's get the Brits back to rule over us "ignorant" people.

[kapdal]

By the way, if someone really wants to understand concepts like democracy, anarchy, etc., I'd highly recommend watching Noam Chomsky videos on these themes on youtube. It'd be time very well spent.

[hemanthooda]

Need of the hour is not martial law but affirmative & progressive leadership.Rest all the things will fall in place with time!!!!

[cooljat]

Where such leaders exist ? Tell me one single Leader who's capable to bring a single change.
Bro, Martial Law is the only solution to improve the adverse situation .. cuz' Army officers are the best leaders. They practice what they preach and always lead from the front.

It may sound funny to many of you guys cuz' you yourself has been habitual to all this and resist for change. For us personal freedom matters most and responsibility towards Country is nil. Its feels ironical when ppl talk about improvement in today's flawed n' corrupt system.


Need of the hour is not martial law but affirmative & progressive leadership.Rest all the things will fall in place with time!!!!

[cooljat]

Mukesh,

You explained and raise the real issues very well, appreciate that.

I wonder how the people justifying such flawed democracy of India, I rather denote it as Gunda-Raj! Here few of guys giving example of various martial law imposment and their consequences. I ask them first compare their Army with our own and see the difference and moreover let's talk about the emerging power China. How they are rising and thriving in every single sector. How they achieving new heights & giving tough competition to powerful nations. Look at their discipline, organization, determination and every single citizen's contribution towards their country.

It a wake up call and we are snoozing it again & again. If Army doesn't intervene in this corrupt democracy .. they doomsday is not far away.


Jit, What a topic.

Well, I’m not sure what kind of Martial Law you are proposing here but irrespective to this I can easily feel your dissatisfaction with the existing system. I can understand that it is very hard to turn a blind eye for a sensible person toward the things happening here and there. It is very true that situation is getting worst day by day.
A quick review of the current state can make anyone conclude that nothing is working in the way it is expected to work. It is not democracy rather it is a finest example of the anarchy.

Well, I fully agree that no form of government is better than democracy. Democracy is a finest system. if it is fines then why it is not producing effective result in our country. Why it is continue to fail in addressing the grievance of people. Why?

The good thing with the democracy is that it is the reflexion of the society/people therefore the performance of democracy entirely depends on the quality of the people/society in which it is working. A democracy works effectively only with the 100% active and constructive participation of the public. In a democracy public is expected to be equally concerned with duties as they are with their rights.
In absence of the above scenario the democracy would seems to be proving the famous saying right that “ A democracy is just a group of 51% fool who rules over 59% intellectuals”

In India where people are getting more individualistic and self centered and running away from their duties, where corruption got social acceptance, where majority of people don’t know the importance of a vote, where election is mere a show of muscles and black money, how one can expect effective results from a democratic system.

Inspite of being fond of democracy, I don’t hesitate to accept that democracy failed miserably in addressing the problem of this Country. We had expected that democracy would bring prosperity, equality, stability and peace in the country but none of the objective is achieved, infact we have shifted ourselves on a different path that is leading the nation toward disaster.

I see many a so called intellectuals still advocating democracy in India while justying it with arguments of freedom of speech, freedom to criticize and by bringing the example of failures of other form of governments.

I agree that none of the system is fully perfect and democracy provides many rights but why the hell should I be concerned with democracy when it fails to provide me timely justice, equal opportunity, quality food and basic necessities to live my life happily.

Today India is divided into two parts. One is INDIA whose day begins and ends with multiplexes, brightening shopping malls, cafe and all sort of luxuries of the life whereas on other hand there is BHARAT a BPL bharat who continue to work hard to arrange two times of meal. One side a child play with toys whereas on other side a child of same age is forced to pick polytheans and work on teal stalls. In a family even the dog has the access of hygienic food whereas on other side there is families which even find it hard to arrange food forget about hygiene.

The gap between INDIA & BHARAT is continue to increase. Then why should I care for democracy.

And you talk about freedom of speech and freedom to criticize. Are you sure that you really enjoy it in its true spirit. These rights are very much placed in constitution but I wonder if people are really able to use them.

Agar shak hai to kisi politician ko uske samne criticize kar ke dekh lena…ya phir kisi mafia ki uske samne burai kar ke dekh liyo..ya kisi police wale ko law ki isi tesi karte huwe tok ke dekh liyo.. PATA chal jayega.. bolti band na ho ja to mujhe bataiyoo…
Therefore I strongly feel that if this system is unable to provide an eaual opportunity to all to live a good life then it is a waste. The sooner it is changed the better it is.

Most of us have access to a laptop and internet and by surfing one or two site we mistaken that we are well updated about the real picture of the country. it is easy to comment while sitting in AC rooms but very difficult to understand the pain of crores of victims of this bullshit system.

It really surprises me when I see many of us still advocating this unproductive system. can’t you just see the ground reality. are you afraid of losing your comfort zone?

We have waited almost 64 years but can’t tolerate this state of anarchy anymore. I don’t advocate martial law or any other law rather I want a system that works. I’m not sure how effective the martial law would be but it can atleast bring a change. It may atleast teach us a lesson of discipline and civic sense which we lacks totally. It may also let us feel the importance of democracy as we generally don’t feel the importance of something till it comes free of cost.

But now it is high time that we pay the price for the freedom we enjoyed and mistakes we done. I’m ready to sacrifice my part of freedom for a system that may bring result and make the nation prosper, stable and peaceful.

[vicky84]

I did not get what you are trying to achieve here. You first decide what you want?

(a) Communism

(b) Army Rule

(c) Martial Law

(d) Something Else

[prashantacmet]

India is also doing well on international front. When the monster of recession is lingering in entire europe and USA, India got a fast recovery and no danger is looming over on our currency like greece's debt has plunged euro badly. India has got place in the lsit of most richest men of world. However, like any other countriy India has its own problems and the problems are population and greed of common people. The corrupt bureaucrats, the dirty politicians everyone who is sitting on piles of money are products of the same greed that has a safe place in deep of evryone heart. Everyone is busy in making money by hook or by crook. No one cares for "civic sense", starving people, dirty roads. There are people in the country who are deprived of their basic needs but who cares. Defense personals are also not exceptional . Some people say that army men are less corrupt ...no..they are less corrupt because they get less chances. Impose the martial law in this country and see the results..thing will get worse not better. Top brass of army officials will become busy in making money, freedom of people will be curbed down, voice of media and all human rights groups will buried deep in earth. However top army officials look "delicate" but if someone like Sadaam or Fiedel castro emerges waht will be the fortune of this country.
On a second thought, concept of martial laws does not suit for the third world countries. these countries can neither produce Hitler nor that sense of pride and patriotism of germans which shivered whole world with fear. They will be happly in plundering their own people. Army persons will make this country a hell. Now they are only eating rations, the they will get a lot to swallow.

[anilsangwan]

You forgot one option " e. Emergency" as imposed by "Respected Saas of Italian blonde Bahu" in 1977. That can be one option too. .... But we need to search for people who can play the roles of Sanjay Gandhi, Bansilal and "Saasu ji" herself.... :rock :rock




I did not get what you are trying to achieve here. You first decide what you want?

(a) Communism

(b) Army Rule

(c) Martial Law

(d) Something Else

[mukeshkumar007]

However, like any other countriy India has its own problems and the problems are population and greed of common people. The corrupt bureaucrats, the dirty politicians everyone who is sitting on piles of money are products of the same greed that has a safe place in deep of evryone heart. Everyone is busy in making money by hook or by crook. No one cares for "civic sense", starving people, dirty roads. There are people in the country who are deprived of their basic needs but who cares. Defense personals are also not exceptional . Some people say that army men are less corrupt ...no..they are less corrupt because they get less chances. Impose the martial law in this country and see the results..thing will get worse not better. Top brass of army officials will become busy in making money, freedom of people will be curbed down, voice of media and all human rights groups will buried deep in earth. However top army officials look "delicate" but if someone like Sadaam or Fiedel castro emerges waht will be the fortune of this country.
On a second thought, concept of martial laws does not suit for the third world countries. these countries can neither produce Hitler nor that sense of pride and patriotism of germans which shivered whole world with fear. They will be happly in plundering their own people. Army persons will make this country a hell. Now they are only eating rations, the they will get a lot to swallow.

Nice analysis bro.

As I said in my earlier post, I'm not sure how effective the martial law or rule of army would be if the martial law or army rule is imposed but it may atleast bring a change. We may think on other alternative of bringing some changes in the existing system but that seems next to impossible in current scenario. A sudden change can be possible but bringing change in existing one is really not possible.

I agree that defense personal are not exceptional, there have been cases of corruptions in army too. While appearing for the SSB interview last month I got to realize that money making things also got a position in the priority list of newly recommended candidates which is certainly not good.
Therefore I don’t deny the possibility of getting the things worst even in Army rule as it is said that absolute power corrupts a MAN. But I still have faith in this institution as majority of people in this organization are driven by character. I know many a person’s those left high profile corporate career to join the forces.

Infact the increasing cases of corruption in Army is also the result of this faulty system or I say faulty democracy in our country..wo kehte hai na ki KALI HANDI KE PASS BAITNE SE KALA HONE KE CHANCES BADH JATE HAI..so agar society fully corrupt ho jayegi to usi society se niklne wale log army defense forces maie jayenge to ham soch sakte hai ki unka character kesa ho payega..

I’m convinced that if things continue in the same way then there is high probability that defense forces will also get fully corrupted… and if that happens one can easily guess what will happen thereafter..

So a complete change is the need of hour.. now if it is in form of martial law..let it be.. if anyone have any better idea then suggest.. but yeh to acceptable nahi hai.. agar kuch nai kiya to disaster is waiting to happen..

I know country is doing good at some level but ground reality is very horrible..as you yourself have brought some points..

[upendersingh]

I fail to understand how martial law is going to check corruption and how the long time pending cases are going to be solved quickly. Corruption can be uprooted only if a honest person is made stand on the head of each officials all the time, which is impossible. Long time pending cases are also not going to be solved quickly because of limited courts, judges and long testing procedures. To solve this problem we will have to focus more on establishment of fast track courts.
I don't think India is in such a condition that martial law should be imposed on it. If one is living a simple life, then one will hardly have to pay bribe ever. Have complete papers of vehicle. Pay taxes on right time. If don't have medical facility, then have some mediclaim like policy, lead a defaultless life. India is going well. Corrupts are punished, when caught with evidences. What we really need, is to improve our education system and anti-corruption departments. We should choose able and honest candidates for the Parliament. Above all, we should stop advocating this perception that life is one, so enjoy it to the fullest.

[ravinderjeet]

.

Bhai, I already defined the traits of Educated ignorant people but if you want I do it again in easy to learn desi lingo! :)

पढ़े लिखे गंवार who lack basic civic sense, highly irresponsible and give a damn to their moral duties for country!

jit ,ganwaar sabad kaa paryog gaanw waalon ke liye shahri lok kartey they ,ki unko kuchh nahi aataa hey jo ki uchit nahi hey ,iskey liye padhey likhey bewkoof yaa iss sey miltey jultey sabdon kaa isteymaal kiyaa jaa saktaa hey ,par murakh logon ko ingit karney ke liye ganwaar shabat ke paryog se bachey,kyon ki me bhi gaaon me palaa bdhaa hoon isliye ganwaar hoon.

dusri baat rahi martial Law ki to me ye kahnaa chaahungaa ki iss samye sudhaar ki atayant aawshyktaa he par fojiyon ke haath me taakat de di ,toh jo hey wo bhi nahi rhegaa bhatthaa beth jaayegaa.meney aur mere ristedaaron mey bahoot se lok hein jinhone diffence me service ki hey aur me ab deffence ke saath business bhi kar rhaa hoon.buraa mat maaniyo bhaaiyo ,iss samaye sabse badaa bharshtaachaari vibhaag diffence hi hey.aur issmey fouji afsaraan ke saath-2 netaa aur dalaal sab saamil hein.jo baahar aataahey wo toh 1% bhi nahi hogaa bhrashtaachaar kaa.uppar se foji afsron me com.sence ki kami hoti hey ye kabhi bhi baahri duniya ke saath taal mel nahi bithaa paatey.issliye kai baar meney dekhaa bhi hey ki job vicencey section me "diffence personel need not apply" likhaa hotaa hey.sudharnaa hey to hamey chaahiye koi civilian jo dictetor ban kar raj kar sakey.koi buraa mat maanana par ye sachhaai hey hey kai foji afasar bhi ye padhengey aur unnhey buraa bhi lagegaa.

[cooljat]

Ravinder,

If urban jerks denote villagers with this name, it doesn't make village ppl fee inferior. So don't take it personal.

Strongly disagree with your views regarding Army. I somewhat agree that corruption is there as well but its quite small compare to ours and not socially acceptable either. Mind you, the corruption is ignited by our civil ppl only there would be few traitors but again the real culprits are businessmen who are trying to increase it, But as soon as it comes in picture all the guilty ones get punishment be it of any grade from Generals to Soldiers, that too quickly.

To add more, there're members in myextended family as well who are serving with pride in Army. My mamaji just retired from post of Lt Gen and just before retirement awarded AVSM from President herself. He worked with pride and honesty all of life and says Army is a passion not a profession, if you're joining it just for career perspective you're mistaken!

I stick to my viewpoint, if anything can bring the positive change in this current corrupt state that's only Martial Law. period!


jit ,ganwaar sabad kaa paryog gaanw waalon ke liye shahri lok kartey they ,ki unko kuchh nahi aataa hey jo ki uchit nahi hey ,iskey liye padhey likhey bewkoof yaa iss sey miltey jultey sabdon kaa isteymaal kiyaa jaa saktaa hey ,par murakh logon ko ingit karney ke liye ganwaar shabat ke paryog se bachey,kyon ki me bhi gaaon me palaa bdhaa hoon isliye ganwaar hoon.

dusri baat rahi martial Law ki to me ye kahnaa chaahungaa ki iss samye sudhaar ki atayant aawshyktaa he par fojiyon ke haath me taakat de di ,toh jo hey wo bhi nahi rhegaa bhatthaa beth jaayegaa.meney aur mere ristedaaron mey bahoot se lok hein jinhone diffence me service ki hey aur me ab deffence ke saath business bhi kar rhaa hoon.buraa mat maaniyo bhaaiyo ,iss samaye sabse badaa bharshtaachaari vibhaag diffence hi hey.aur issmey fouji afsaraan ke saath-2 netaa aur dalaal sab saamil hein.jo baahar aataahey wo toh 1% bhi nahi hogaa bhrashtaachaar kaa.uppar se foji afsron me com.sence ki kami hoti hey ye kabhi bhi baahri duniya ke saath taal mel nahi bithaa paatey.issliye kai baar meney dekhaa bhi hey ki job vicencey section me "diffence personel need not apply" likhaa hotaa hey.sudharnaa hey to hamey chaahiye koi civilian jo dictetor ban kar raj kar sakey.koi buraa mat maanana par ye sachhaai hey hey kai foji afasar bhi ye padhengey aur unnhey buraa bhi lagegaa.

[prashantacmet]

Jit, Whatever you are stick to, it does not matter because this country is not going to come in hand of army men. So assimilate yourself in the current system and stop intriguing!!

Rock on!! :)

[kapdal]

Here few of guys giving example of various martial law imposment and their consequences. I ask them first compare their Army with our own and see the difference and moreover let's talk about the emerging power China. How they are rising and thriving in every single sector. How they achieving new heights & giving tough competition to powerful nations. Look at their discipline, organization, determination and every single citizen's contribution towards their country.

It a wake up call and we are snoozing it again & again. If Army doesn't intervene in this corrupt democracy .. they doomsday is not far away.

Jit,

You are contradicting yourself here. You rightly point out the difference between the Indian Army and the army of nations like Pakistan. The difference is that Indian Army has not made a grab for power ever. It has resolutely served under the civilian leadership. And then you want to take the difference away by advocating that army should take over. Thankfully, I believe the army as an institution is above such terrible tendencies. Field Marshal Sam Manekshaw was so popular post 1971 that he was once asked by Indira Gandhi if he planned to take over. He is said to have replied: "You have a long nose. So have I. But I don't poke my nose into other people's affairs." This is what Indian Army should stand for.

[kapdal]

As for China, it is not under martial law. It is under single party communist rule. Secondly, what you wrote about China is probably from Communist Party of China 101 manual. They are undoubtedly becoming stronger economically and militarily. But it doesn't mean that "aam aadmi" there is much better off. Scratch the surface, and you'd see many problems like in India, sometimes worse as dissent is not allowed. Much of it is hidden given the tight media control, but still there is a lot one can find out if interested.

[cooljat]

Kapil,

This is Indian Army's generosity that it didn't intervene before. Essence of your reply says one shouldn't intervene in other's affairs. But bro this is related to our Country thus Army, Govt, Common man all have fundamental rights to question and interfere as par need. Army didn't do earlier but it is high time to take the control from spineless govt for GOOD!

I'm advocating to take over for Good. I strongly believe if Army takes control things will improve quickly. Btw, if you have any other proactive and practical suggestion please tell us.



Jit,

You are contradicting yourself here. You rightly point out the difference between the Indian Army and the army of nations like Pakistan. The difference is that Indian Army has not made a grab for power ever. It has resolutely served under the civilian leadership. And then you want to take the difference away by advocating that army should take over. Thankfully, I believe the army as an institution is above such terrible tendencies. Field Marshal Sam Manekshaw was so popular post 1971 that he was once asked by Indira Gandhi if he planned to take over. He is said to have replied: "You have a long nose. So have I. But I don't poke my nose into other people's affairs." This is what Indian Army should stand for.

[cooljat]

I know that but its more or less like Martial Law. You are making assumptions although I do agree that they'll be having their share of problems but situations are improving not getting worse like India. Look how they hosted Olympics and thrived in that and you'll how our corrupt officials make a mess of Commonwealth. There're plenty of other examples like population control, prompting cycle to reduce emission and fuel usasge, uniform law, how they crushed muslim terrorism etc.

I want a better and effective solution here like them, which take power from corrupt failed democracy of India!


As for China, it is not under martial law. It is under single party communist rule. Secondly, what you wrote about China is probably from Communist Party of China 101 manual. They are undoubtedly becoming stronger economically and militarily. But it doesn't mean that "aam aadmi" there is much better off. Scratch the surface, and you'd see many problems like in India, sometimes worse as dissent is not allowed. Much of it is hidden given the tight media control, but still there is a lot one can find out if interested.

[singhvp]

If India aims to join the ‘club of affluent and developed countries’ like Myanmar, Pakistan, Zimbabwe, Bangladesh, Chile, North Korea, Congo, Zaire etc. , Martial Law is the only way forward. The concept of democracy, freedom of speech etc. are not understood by the majority which consist of “jahils” and “ignorants”. These are meant only for the privileged class of society consisting of a handful–well-educated (using lot of slang) and the commissioned “faujis” – the holy cows.

[ravinderjeet]

Ravinder,

If urban jerks denote villagers with this name, it doesn't make village ppl fee inferior. So don't take it personal.

Strongly disagree with your views regarding Army. I somewhat agree that corruption is there as well but its quite small compare to ours and not socially acceptable either. Mind you, the corruption is ignited by our civil ppl only there would be few traitors but again the real culprits are businessmen who are trying to increase it, But as soon as it comes in picture all the guilty ones get punishment be it of any grade from Generals to Soldiers, that too quickly.

To add more, there're members in myextended family as well who are serving with pride in Army. My mamaji just retired from post of Lt Gen and just before retirement awarded AVSM from President herself. He worked with pride and honesty all of life and says Army is a passion not a profession, if you're joining it just for career perspective you're mistaken!

I stick to my viewpoint, if anything can bring the positive change in this current corrupt state that's only Martial Law. period!
jit ,my brother ,you don't know the inside story of defense forces ,i can't punch the keys for that as it is a open platform ,i am not denying that there are lot of officer who are honest and ,or want to be remain honest.the scenario is that "apni aur apney desh ki rakhshaa key liye bandook sambhaal ke rakhanaa". kam likhey ko jayaadaa samjhanaa.

[Samarkadian]

Jit I am sure sentiment of your argument beneath Martial law is the strict implemenation of civic rules in defence style. Otherwise a martial law in its defitnition is the pitiful condition for any state.

[ravinderjeet]

Jit I am sure sentiment of your argument beneath Martial law is the strict implemenation of civic rules in defence style. Otherwise a martial law in its defitnition is the pitiful condition for any state.

yes samar is trying to define your sentiments.as earlier i said a civilian dictator ship with imandaari, rule with dandaa.the defense forces itself in need of correctness.

[atamjeet78]

Its a great topic to discuss but instead of putting my thoughts to it I would just like to advise my brothers who are still serving should refrian from making any comments against the ruling class. Your views will be looked into for higher ranks promotion. I mean for the post of Chief of Army. Once something is posted on net it cannot be erased so be careful.
Without naming names I like to wish a good career to everyone and want to see someone from our community as Chief one day. As a soldier you should not be criticizing the rulers your duty is to follow orders.
Please dont take it personal its just a brothers advice to a brother.

[vicky84]

If India aims to join the ‘club of affluent and developed countries’ like Myanmar, Pakistan, Zimbabwe, Bangladesh, Chile, North Korea, Congo, Zaire etc. , Martial Law is the only way forward. The concept of democracy, freedom of speech etc. are not understood by the majority which consist of “jahils” and “ignorants”. These are meant only for the privileged class of society consisting of a handful–well-educated (using lot of slang) and the commissioned “faujis” – the holy cows.

Spot on !!!

[vicky84]

You forgot one option " e. Emergency" as imposed by "Respected Saas of Italian blonde Bahu" in 1977. That can be one option too. .... But we need to search for people who can play the roles of Sanjay Gandhi, Bansilal and "Saasu ji" herself.... :rock :rock

http://www.jatland.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

I concur with you Bro. It could be the best fit model here. Issues can be resolved with in hours which democracy couldnt in 64 years!!!

I know its because of Democracy we can write here. But just out of curiosity. Are we going to have same freedom of writing once we have Martial law or Some Emergency in place?

[kapdal]

Kapil,

This is Indian Army's generosity that it didn't intervene before. Essence of your reply says one shouldn't intervene in other's affairs. But bro this is related to our Country thus Army, Govt, Common man all have fundamental rights to question and interfere as par need. Army didn't do earlier but it is high time to take the control from spineless govt for GOOD!

I'm advocating to take over for Good. I strongly believe if Army takes control things will improve quickly. Btw, if you have any other proactive and practical suggestion please tell us.

That was not my reply, but Sam Manekshaw's. The most popular general ever and most suited to implement your diagnosis. He chose not to interferre, when he very well could have. In a country with freedom of speech, you can advocate whatever you want, even if it is something outrageous like martial law (There is an amusing irony about it. Try advocating democracy in a country with martial law..:)). But the people you are advocating should take over, have better senses and are not interested in your advocacy. That is my reading of the reality, we can check this on 19th August 2020.

Also, interferrence of army and an armyman's interest in nation's politics are 2 entirely different things. The latter is not only legitimate but perfectly laudable. The former is recipe for disaster. The empirical evidence is there for all to see in the number of failed states in near and distant history. It can also be argued based on logic rather than "strong belief". A strong belief is just a strong belief. Like I can have a strong belief that if I stare hard enough on Tajmahal, it'd turn black. But would it?

Anyways, as far as logic is concerned, then armymen don't come from heaven. They are part of the same society. They are as human as rest of us, and are prone to the same moral issues as rest of us. It is not individual armymen, but the institution of army that is less corrupt and more disciplined than average civil society. The main reason for that is that it strictly minds its business. That will not be the case if it was trying to run a country of 1 billion people with different castes, classes, religions and what not. Secondly as far as corruption is concerned (which seems to be your main grouse), it is directly dependent on concentration of power. As someone becomes more powerful, he is liable to become more corrupt. The example of the exceptional honest and powerful person would be incorrect, as it is an exceptional example and not a general one. The issue with civil services and politicians is that they have too much power. What you are advocating is a further concentration of power, this time in people that you "believe" are fit to run the show. You want to give them so much power that they don't even have to face the 5-year music of elections. That is going from bad to worse. Like someone famously said: "Power corrupts. Absoulte power corrupts absolutely".

[VirJ]

The Martial Law could do wonders if everything goes right but it can go very wrong and I know no sane person would advocate it because of the drawbacks, or should i say risks, it has.

The Army itself isnt in the favour of it. Moreover ek ba army ko martial law ka chaska lag gaya to------. I think we should be discussing "Do we need to get rid of the westminister system?" And my answer is Yes. I have written about it in some other thread as well. Yes we need to discard westminister system and develop a better one, one in which these Mamtas and Jaylalitas cant dictate terms in center and make the Govt (center) handicap. Also the present system doesnt necessaraliy choose the most favoured candidate.

[kapdal]

I know that but its more or less like Martial Law. You are making assumptions although I do agree that they'll be having their share of problems but situations are improving not getting worse like India. Look how they hosted Olympics and thrived in that and you'll how our corrupt officials make a mess of Commonwealth. There're plenty of other examples like population control, prompting cycle to reduce emission and fuel usasge, uniform law, how they crushed muslim terrorism etc.

I want a better and effective solution here like them, which take power from corrupt failed democracy of India!

No, it is not same as Martial Law. Even communists believe that they represent the free will of the people. As per your posts, you are against the free will of people as they don't deserve it and you believe in giving absolute power to those you have a "strong belief" in.

The thing that you are talking about as improving in China is improving in India as well. It is called GDP growth. It doesn't lead to automatic welfare of the people. The Indian reality is there in open, freely discussed and talked about. For the Chinese one, you have to make an effort to even come close to finding out. If the media was not free to talk about corruption in commonwealth, you won't have known about it. You can reverse the example for China.

But yes, if you want to create a space that may stink from within but is painted beautifully from outside, then probably martial law could help for some time.

[singhvp]

The Martial Law could do wonders if everything goes right but it can go very wrong and I know no sane person would advocate it because of the drawbacks, or should i say risks, it has.

The Army itself isnt in the favour of it. Moreover ek ba army ko martial law ka chaska lag gaya to------. I think we should be discussing "Do we need to get rid of the westminister system?" And my answer is Yes. I have written about it in some other thread as well. Yes we need to discard westminister system and develop a better one, one in which these Mamtas and Jaylalitas cant dictate terms in center and make the Govt (center) handicap. Also the present system doesnt necessaraliy choose the most favoured candidate.

It is true, our constitution and pattern of governance need radical reforms. I think we need to revisit the provisions for recognition of political parties to check blackmailing and horse-trading by people like Mamta and Jaya etc. But Martial law, if of course, not a viable alternative.

[sunillathwal]

In essence, martial rule can have (and generally has/had) all the 'bad' qualities of democracy (examples all around us).

Almost all developed nations have democracy and none of army/single party ruled nation is developed.
Even in our failed democracy E Sreedharan (Delhi Metro guy) managed to finish all projects on time without any charge of corruption and I am sure there are others with such credentials. Problem is not with the democracy, it is with the people. At least democracy provides the option of questioning/prosecuting/scrutinizing such Kalmadis for corruption. There would be no such option to question these Kalmadis appointed by martial rulers!! As simple as that.

[cooljat]

Hmmm .. You're being negative here Sir, It can be other way round. I've belief in our Armed Forces, they will take care of this screwed up situation. Don't we call Army to take care of situation if it gets worse and that's the need of hour here. Holy Cow .. not in a good taste Sir, our brave officers and soldiers giving their lives for the country and you're saying them holy cows, great! These parasites politicians keeping our armymen' life on stack just to personal benifits and you're calling them Holy cows. Sarcasm is not good always, first do some analysis between Army officials and the corrupt IAS, politicans and govt officials then comment!


If India aims to join the ‘club of affluent and developed countries’ like Myanmar, Pakistan, Zimbabwe, Bangladesh, Chile, North Korea, Congo, Zaire etc. , Martial Law is the only way forward. The concept of democracy, freedom of speech etc. are not understood by the majority which consist of “jahils” and “ignorants”. These are meant only for the privileged class of society consisting of a handful–well-educated (using lot of slang) and the commissioned “faujis” – the holy cows.

So what kinda readical refroms you suggest in practical sense? Let me know if you've any better solution then Martial Law to eliminate these spineless parasaits who are runing our country like termites.



It is true, our constitution and pattern of governance need radical reforms. I think we need to revisit the provisions for recognition of political parties to check blackmailing and horse-trading by people like Mamta and Jaya etc. But Martial law, if of course, not a viable alternative.

[cooljat]

You got the essence right, brother.

Few folks here trying to make fun of it n' ignoring the issue , certainly they fall into those educated ignorant mass.


Jit I am sure sentiment of your argument beneath Martial law is the strict implementation of civic rules in defense style. Otherwise a martial law in its defitnition is the pitiful condition for any state.

[mukeshkumar007]

So most of us seems to agree to the demand of a radical change in the system..

Jit has suggested the solution in form of imposing martial law or Army rule in the country..most of us don't take it as a feasible solution. I'm also not sure how effective it can be as the risk involved with this solution is greater..

But yeh bi sach hai ki aur koi solution bi nahi dikh reha hai..

Ham sabko yeh to pata hai ki .. "Aisa Hona Chaiye..Kuch is tareh se hona chaiye" but none of us hve any idea.. "Yeh hoga kese ".. Yeha par itne intellect hai kya kisi ke pass bi koi solution nahi hai.. Koi batayega ki is system maie change kese aa sakta hai.. sare practical senarios dhyan maie rakhte huwe nazar aa reha hai koi solution..

Agar aa reha hai to batawo phir..

Bhai Jit, tu bi teri martial law ki demand ko thoda soften kar le yaar :D atleast tab tak jab tak sare other alternative solutions discuss na ho ja...

[cooljat]

Ok got your point. Nothing is perfect, Martial Law can have few of bad qualities of Democracy but certainly it will have 'good' qualities of Army, isn't it?

I also mentioned earlier that 'Ignorant people' is the main problem. So how we should deal with it and make them responsible? Its not matter of 'atleast' .. we stupid common ppl get used to situation quickly. You tell me the remedy .. what alternative we should implement then Martial law?


In essence, martial rule can have (and generally has/had) all the 'bad' qualities of democracy (examples all around us).

Almost all developed nations have democracy and none of army/single party ruled nation is developed.
Even in our failed democracy E Sreedharan (Delhi Metro guy) managed to finish all projects on time without any charge of corruption and I am sure there are others with such credentials. Problem is not with the democracy, it is with the people. At least democracy provides the option of questioning/prosecuting/scrutinizing such Kalmadis for corruption. There would be no such option to question these Kalmadis appointed by martial rulers!! As simple as that.

[anilsangwan]

Mukesh bhai,

You are right nobody here has idea on "Yeh hoga kese ".. ..... in my opinion, the step by step process is to,

(a) Identify the problem
(b) Find all possible solutions either good or bad - brainstorming.
(c) Select the best possible solution after discussions.
(d) Implement the best solution.
(e) Achieve results and compare with the goals.

We all are good at (a) fully and (b), (c) - partially.

When it comes to (d) - we get derailed and there is a valid reason behind that. None of the members discussing here have authority to bring that change. For example - if you discuss corruption in armed forces, you alone can not bring it to zero level unless you are General VK Singh and head the entire army. Only change you can bring is probably among people under you which is a small portion of the entire problem....That is the reason, most of the discussions here do not yeild any "measurable" implemention results.

Aapas mein sarrr beshak fuddwa lyo threads pe apna apna angle le kar......... step (d) aur (e) tak pahunchna mushkil dikhta hai...




Ham sabko yeh to pata hai ki .. "Aisa Hona Chaiye..Kuch is tareh se hona chaiye" but none of us hve any idea.. "Yeh hoga kese ".. Yeha par itne intellect hai kya kisi ke pass bi koi solution nahi hai.. Koi batayega ki is system maie change kese aa sakta hai.. sare practical senarios dhyan maie rakhte huwe nazar aa reha hai koi solution..
...

[VirJ]

So most of us seems to agree to the demand of a radical change in the system..

Jit has suggested the solution in form of imposing martial law or Army rule in the country..most of us don't take it as a feasible solution. I'm also not sure how effective it can be as the risk involved with this solution is greater..

But yeh bi sach hai ki aur koi solution bi nahi dikh reha hai..

Ham sabko yeh to pata hai ki .. "Aisa Hona Chaiye..Kuch is tareh se hona chaiye" but none of us hve any idea.. "Yeh hoga kese ".. Yeha par itne intellect hai kya kisi ke pass bi koi solution nahi hai.. Koi batayega ki is system maie change kese aa sakta hai.. sare practical senarios dhyan maie rakhte huwe nazar aa reha hai koi solution..

Agar aa reha hai to batawo phir..

Bhai Jit, tu bi teri martial law ki demand ko thoda soften kar le yaar :D atleast tab tak jab tak sare other alternative solutions discuss na ho ja...

Something along the line http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?29770-Walking-with-Comrades/page13 post # 259.

Also, to determine the winner, the percentage of overall votes for and against a candidate should be considered not the postition 1st, 2nd or 3rd.

This was just written casually without much thoughts as it wasnt the main topic. You can elaborate it further.

[vicky84]

Mukesh bhai,

You are right nobody here has idea on "Yeh hoga kese ".. ..... in my opinion, the step by step process is to,

(a) Identify the problem
(b) Find all possible solutions either good or bad - brainstorming.
(c) Select the best possible solution after discussions.
(d) Implement the best solution.
(e) Achieve results and compare with the goals.

We all are good at (a) fully and (b), (c) - partially.

When it comes to (d) - we get derailed and there is a valid reason behind that. None of the members discussing here have authority to bring that change. For example - if you discuss corruption in armed forces, you alone can not bring it to zero level unless you are General VK Singh and head the entire army. Only change you can bring is probably among people under you which is a small portion of the entire problem....That is the reason, most of the discussions here do not yeild any "measurable" implemention results.

Aapas mein sarrr beshak fuddwa lyo threads pe apna apna angle le kar......... step (d) aur (e) tak pahunchna mushkil dikhta hai...

Agreed Anil bhai. A lot of same had been discussed before. We may come up with N number of solutions but when it comes to implementation of those solutions, no body here has power to implement that. And that is the final thing as per my understanding.

[jagmohan]

Dear All,

I can’t understand how a discussion on ‘Martial law’ always ends up discussing corruption in Armed Forces! I am the first person to agree that yes there is corruption in armed forces, but once officers are caught, exemplary punishment is guaranteed with swiftness. Armed Forces officers don’t come from Mars but are product of the same corrupt system that we see all around us. The financial status of a honest Colonel who retires after some 32 years of service is worse than a traffic sergeant of Delhi Police. Some members take great pride in even saying that they are suppliers to the defence services or dealing with them and there is so much corruption. You have two choices if you consider yourself to be an honest citizen; report the matter to Anti Corruption Unit of the CBI or stop dealing with such corrupt organization. Why give lectures of honesty here?

Now, let me focus on the topic. Lt Gen (Padma Bhushan) ML Chibber (Retd) had written a book titled Military Leadership to Prevent Military Coup. Since it is not possible for me to explain in detail how a military coup would not take place in a country like ours because of our multi religious and multi ethnic character. To put it simply it is not in our blood. Further logic can be derived from the book.

My personal views are more radical that the one suggested by Jit. Military coup is a non starter here, not that it is difficult to mount, and is not desirable and may not be sustainable. There is another coup already on in this country and it has mostly gone unnoticed because the government never gave it serious thought. Yes, I am talking about the Naxal & Maoist problem. An areas that is as big as Pakistan is ungovernable in the largest democracy of the world. The people of these areas have declared a coup against the government and governance. They kill CRPF in scores and call them ‘Broiler Chicken’.

There is a bigger coup that started in 2003. Yes, Commonwealth Games. Haven’t you noticed how the whole system gets together to loot the common man in this country. This is actually a ‘Reverse Coup’. I am not being sarcastic. I drive in front of the Games Village everyday. The loot is too apparent.

Therefore, what is the need of a military coup when many coups are already underway in this country?

[anilsangwan]

Spot on! I 'councur' with you brother. Can not agree more :rock :rock :rock :rock :rock


Further, forget about "power to implement", I feel that we dont even have proper powers to "suggest" something to those who are ruling this country. Send a mail to CM or PM or even the President of this country...."Mahamahim Pratheeba Patil Ji" and you will get no reply ever.


Rock ON !! << Yoh to reh e gaya tha.... post edit kari hai



We may come up with N number of solutions but when it comes to implementation of those solutions, no body here has power to implement that. And that is the final thing as per my understanding.

[mukeshkumar007]

Mukesh bhai,

You are right nobody here has idea on "Yeh hoga kese ".. ..... in my opinion, the step by step process is to,

(a) Identify the problem
(b) Find all possible solutions either good or bad - brainstorming.
(c) Select the best possible solution after discussions.
(d) Implement the best solution.
(e) Achieve results and compare with the goals.

We all are good at (a) fully and (b), (c) - partially.

When it comes to (d) - we get derailed and there is a valid reason behind that. None of the members discussing here have authority to bring that change. For example - if you discuss corruption in armed forces, you alone can not bring it to zero level unless you are General VK Singh and head the entire army. Only change you can bring is probably among people under you which is a small portion of the entire problem....That is the reason, most of the discussions here do not yeild any "measurable" implemention results.

Aapas mein sarrr beshak fuddwa lyo threads pe apna apna angle le kar......... step (d) aur (e) tak pahunchna mushkil dikhta hai...

Bhaishab, as u said that we are somewhat good in identifying the problem nd assessing the likely solution.. but the problem is with the implementation.. This implementation part in the current senario can be made possible with the active participation of all stake holders...jo ki possible lag bi nahi reha.. People at the position are incapable of doing this... Bhagwan jane ho kya jata hai ki weha jate hi usi rang maie mil jate hai..poocho to bera na kye kye justification dewe..

I have no hope for change in the current scenario.... ab to sirf ek hi umeed hai nd wo hai..jab is systems ke mari huwi neglected public revolution ka jhanda utayegi.. The only hope of any revolution is from this section of the society.. Apan jise pade likhe intellects kuch na kar sakte siwaye discussion ke nd wo bi net par ya parties maie.. thats all..

[mukeshkumar007]

Dear All,

I can’t understand how a discussion on ‘Martial law’ always ends up discussing corruption in Armed Forces! I am the first person to agree that yes there is corruption in armed forces, but once officers are caught, exemplary punishment is guaranteed with swiftness. Armed Forces officers don’t come from Mars but are product of the same corrupt system that we see all around us. The financial status of a honest Colonel who retires after some 32 years of service is worse than a traffic sergeant of Delhi Police. Some members take great pride in even saying that they are suppliers to the defence services or dealing with them and there is so much corruption. You have two choices if you consider yourself to be an honest citizen; report the matter to Anti Corruption Unit of the CBI or stop dealing with such corrupt organization. Why give lectures of honesty here?

Very True Uncleji.





There is another coup already on in this country and it has mostly gone unnoticed because the government never gave it serious thought. Yes, I am talking about the Naxal & Maoist problem. An areas that is as big as Pakistan is ungovernable in the largest democracy of the world. The people of these areas have declared a coup against the government and governance. They kill CRPF in scores and call them ‘Broiler Chicken’.

There is a bigger coup that started in 2003. Yes, Commonwealth Games. Haven’t you noticed how the whole system gets together to loot the common man in this country. This is actually a ‘Reverse Coup’. I am not being sarcastic. I drive in front of the Games Village everyday. The loot is too apparent.

Therefore, what is the need of a military coup when many coups are already underway in this country?

And these many coups are likely to get spread in almost every part of the country..it is just a matter of few years..

[cooljat]

Jaggu Uncle,

Thanks for your much awaited reply that prevails some sense.

I've been repeating again and again that corruption is there too. Where there is man, there is corruption but since discipline and strict law is practices there it dies quickly unlike here in civilians. But here ppl are not leaving a chance to defame our Army. Wondering how they forgetting the supreme sacrifice by many martyrs. I think Army personals use the right word for us - Bloody Civilians!

I'm quite eager to read the book you mentioned, going to get it this weekend and if not able to find, would borrow from you for reading. Anyways, the title itself is self explanatory. I did some googling and find this very old article in Indian Express which depicts how these bloody parasites keep trying to inject corruption into Army as well. Its pity, Army sometimes have to work under spineless sheep leadership in the form of Defense ministry. Here is the link : http://www.indianexpress.com/ie/daily/19981229/36350484.html

If revolution doesn't come soon in the form of Martial Law or any other effective alternative, the doomsday is not far away when our country will be a dismantle state !




Dear All,

I can’t understand how a discussion on ‘Martial law’ always ends up discussing corruption in Armed Forces! I am the first person to agree that yes there is corruption in armed forces, but once officers are caught, exemplary punishment is guaranteed with swiftness. Armed Forces officers don’t come from Mars but are product of the same corrupt system that we see all around us. The financial status of a honest Colonel who retires after some 32 years of service is worse than a traffic sergeant of Delhi Police. Some members take great pride in even saying that they are suppliers to the defence services or dealing with them and there is so much corruption. You have two choices if you consider yourself to be an honest citizen; report the matter to Anti Corruption Unit of the CBI or stop dealing with such corrupt organization. Why give lectures of honesty here?

Now, let me focus on the topic. Lt Gen (Padma Bhushan) ML Chibber (Retd) had written a book titled Military Leadership to Prevent Military Coup. Since it is not possible for me to explain in detail how a military coup would not take place in a country like ours because of our multi religious and multi ethnic character. To put it simply it is not in our blood. Further logic can be derived from the book.

My personal views are more radical that the one suggested by Jit. Military coup is a non starter here, not that it is difficult to mount, and is not desirable and may not be sustainable. There is another coup already on in this country and it has mostly gone unnoticed because the government never gave it serious thought. Yes, I am talking about the Naxal & Maoist problem. An areas that is as big as Pakistan is ungovernable in the largest democracy of the world. The people of these areas have declared a coup against the government and governance. They kill CRPF in scores and call them ‘Broiler Chicken’.

There is a bigger coup that started in 2003. Yes, Commonwealth Games. Haven’t you noticed how the whole system gets together to loot the common man in this country. This is actually a ‘Reverse Coup’. I am not being sarcastic. I drive in front of the Games Village everyday. The loot is too apparent.

Therefore, what is the need of a military coup when many coups are already underway in this country?

[cooljat]

Our hon'ble Agriculture Minister declines SC's order to provide free food grains to poor ppl if FCI's warehouses have not enough capacity of storage. He said no matter if food rains get rotten but we can't give it for free. Doesn't Pawar need a Tyson punch on his crooked face? These jerks should be shot in public like stray dogs!

http://hindi.economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/6337444.cms (http://hindi.economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/6337444.cms)

Now I want to ask the democracy supporters, how we should deal with such blood sucking parasites?

[ravinderjeet]

Our hon'ble Agriculture Minister declines SC's order to provide free food grains to poor ppl if FCI's warehouses have not enough capacity of storage. He said no matter if food rains get rotten but we can't give it for free. Doesn't Pawar need a Tyson punch on his crooked face? These jerks should be shot in public like stray dogs!

http://hindi.economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/6337444.cms (http://hindi.economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/6337444.cms)

Now I want to ask the democracy supporters, how we should deal with such blood sucking parasites?





aapki iss baat kaa mey samarthan kartaa hoon.
asey logon par ,jo bharsthachaar me doobey ho ,unn par desh dharoh kaa mukdmaa chalayaa jana chaahiye ,jis parkar chin mey bharsthachaar karney par mout ki sajaa di jaati hey ,ussi parkaar desh droh kaa arop lagaa kar inko faanshi di jaani chaahiye.par ho gaa kesey ? wo guru (sansad bhawan hamley kaa doshi) abhi tak murag massalam khaa rhaa hey.

[bhupindersingh]

main bhi Jit bhai ki iss baat se sahmat hoon.


Our hon'ble Agriculture Minister declines SC's order to provide free food grains to poor ppl if FCI's warehouses have not enough capacity of storage. He said no matter if food rains get rotten but we can't give it for free. Doesn't Pawar need a Tyson punch on his crooked face? These jerks should be shot in public like stray dogs!

http://hindi.economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/6337444.cms (http://hindi.economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/6337444.cms)

Now I want to ask the democracy supporters, how we should deal with such blood sucking parasites?

[cooljat]

.

After busting the budget several times over, the Commonwealth Games are apparently still short of money. So the Army is now expected to spend 11 crores for the help it's been asked to provide.

Read here: http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/commonwealth-games-army-asked-to-work-at-no-cost-45926?cp


After looting thousands of crores for CWG now these bastards asking help from Army to work that too of Army's own cost and provide services for free. WTF!! :mad:
I'm asking you guys if Army is corrupt then why the hell these patriotic honest politicians calling them even after gulping almost 80K Crore rupees. These are like cockroaches and they deserve nothing but gruesome death. I wonder why not army take a lead and decline their asking for support but I know Army will surely help but not for them but for Nation's pride.

So now am asking where are the supporters of Democracy, what they have to say regarding it?

[vijay123]

People are not saying that Army is as corrupt as bureaucracy but even if we assume that Army is 100% corruption free, that does not mean that they be asked to rule as well. Army is answerable to parliament and not vice versa. All countries including US call their Armies for help in case of natural calamities or when situation is out of control; but does that mean Army should also be asked to rule. See the situation of Army in Pakistan today... before they took over, Army was accorded a lot of respect and after few years in rule people started shouting slogans against their Army. That is what happens when Army starts ruling. After all Army is trained for fighting not in civic administration. When Indian Army is already short of thousands of officer, from where it is going to bring lacs of honest officers to run the administration. Who is going to secure the borders? Even when India was ruled by Britishers, Indian Army consisting of Indian officers and soldiers was there, but they never took arms against Britishers except for some in 1857 coup (The one started by Mangal Pandey). Does Army have a golden wand to correct all the problems? I dont think so, otherwise they would have handed it over to a democratic govt.


.

After busting the budget several times over, the Commonwealth Games are apparently still short of money. So the Army is now expected to spend 11 crores for the help it's been asked to provide.

Read here: http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/commonwealth-games-army-asked-to-work-at-no-cost-45926?cp


After looting thousands of crores for CWG now these bastards asking help from Army to work that too of Army's own cost and provide services for free. WTF!! :mad:
I'm asking you guys if Army is corrupt then why the hell these patriotic honest politicians calling them even after gulping almost 80K Crore rupees. These are like cockroaches and they deserve nothing but gruesome death. I wonder why not army take a lead and decline their asking for support but I know Army will surely help but not for them but for Nation's pride.

So now am asking where are the supporters of Democracy, what they have to say regarding it?

[mukeshkumar007]

.

After busting the budget several times over, the Commonwealth Games are apparently still short of money. So the Army is now expected to spend 11 crores for the help it's been asked to provide.

Read here: http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/commonwealth-games-army-asked-to-work-at-no-cost-45926?cp


After looting thousands of crores for CWG now these bastards asking help from Army to work that too of Army's own cost and provide services for free. WTF!! :mad:
I'm asking you guys if Army is corrupt then why the hell these patriotic honest politicians calling them even after gulping almost 80K Crore rupees. These are like cockroaches and they deserve nothing but gruesome death. I wonder why not army take a lead and decline their asking for support but I know Army will surely help but not for them but for Nation's pride.

So now am asking where are the supporters of Democracy, what they have to say regarding it?



Jit, the question is not about being supporter of democracy or martial law rather having an system that helps in bringing prosperity, stability, equality and overall peace in the country.
It is true that there is no alternate of democracy but the fact is that democracy become a sheer mockery in India. Today we have a system that is of NO USE.

but there is no point in discussing about a change here on this PLATFORM. This country need a Revolution to bring a drastic change in the current system and revolution can't be brought by discussing among so called intellects. if you think that by discussing about a change here on this portal you can change the mindset of the members then you are totally mistaken buddy..Bhains ke age bheen bajane se kuch nahi hota..

better discuss with the people who are worst affected of this katam system. It is this deprived section of the society who have the guts to bring the revolution.. so better to take them along with you..

OR if you think you can't do this then buddy lets wait and watch..As Jagmohn Uncleji said many a coups are already underway in this country..

[yudhvirmor]

Mukesh bhai,

You are right nobody here has idea on "Yeh hoga kese ".. ..... in my opinion, the step by step process is to,

(a) Identify the problem
(b) Find all possible solutions either good or bad - brainstorming.
(c) Select the best possible solution after discussions.
(d) Implement the best solution.
(e) Achieve results and compare with the goals.

We all are good at (a) fully and (b), (c) - partially.

When it comes to (d) - we get derailed and there is a valid reason behind that. None of the members discussing here have authority to bring that change. For example - if you discuss corruption in armed forces, you alone can not bring it to zero level unless you are General VK Singh and head the entire army. Only change you can bring is probably among people under you which is a small portion of the entire problem....That is the reason, most of the discussions here do not yeild any "measurable" implemention results.

Aapas mein sarrr beshak fuddwa lyo threads pe apna apna angle le kar......... step (d) aur (e) tak pahunchna mushkil dikhta hai...

Sounds like DMAIC (Define, Measure, Analyse, Implement & Control)

[VPannu]

4 Martial to ye fass ge, and I think there are plenty more scandals waiting to be unearthed. Link here (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Lt-Gen-Rath-to-face-court-martial-in-Sukna-land-scam/articleshow/6381878.cms) . Mind you, ye top ke martial hain :p. अगर बाड़ ही खेत को खाने लग जाए तो ? iska matlab to martial ke upar bhi martial bitthaana padega. We are good the way we are. At least in democracy you get a chance to vote and change the leaders whom you don't like.

[vicky84]

4 Martial to ye fass ge, and I think there are plenty more scandals waiting to be unearthed. Link here (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Lt-Gen-Rath-to-face-court-martial-in-Sukna-land-scam/articleshow/6381878.cms) . Mind you, ye top ke martial hain :p. अगर बाड़ ही खेत को खाने लग जाए तो ? iska matlab to martial ke upar bhi martial bitthaana padega. We are good the way we are. At least in democracy you get a chance to vote and change the leaders whom you don't like.

At least in democracy you get a chance to vote and change the leaders whom you don't like?

That's the bottom line Pannu. Imagine you have got some people in power and all of them are corrupt, you don't have any option to change them. On top of that, imagine you don't have the freedom of expression.

[cooljat]

As Jaggu Uncle earlier mentioned and I kept telling that corruption is there in Army too but as soon it comes in front, the guilty person faces the hard punishment be it Lt Gen or simple soldier .. all are treated same. On the other hand, see the scenario in Civil .. ppl like kalmadi, Lalu, Gauda and almost all of them have scams of thousands of crores on their name and living like kings without any fear. THAT's THE DIFFERENCE !!!!


4 Martial to ye fass ge, and I think there are plenty more scandals waiting to be unearthed. Link here (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Lt-Gen-Rath-to-face-court-martial-in-Sukna-land-scam/articleshow/6381878.cms) . Mind you, ye top ke martial hain :p. अगर बाड़ ही खेत को खाने लग जाए तो ? iska matlab to martial ke upar bhi martial bitthaana padega. We are good the way we are. At least in democracy you get a chance to vote and change the leaders whom you don't like.

[vicky84]

As someone becomes more powerful, he is liable to become more corrupt. The example of the exceptional honest and powerful person would be incorrect, as it is an exceptional example and not a general one. The issue with civil services and politicians is that they have too much power. What you are advocating is a further concentration of power, this time in people that you "believe" are fit to run the show. You want to give them so much power that they don't even have to face the 5-year music of elections. That is going from bad to worse. Like someone famously said: "Power corrupts. Absoulte power corrupts absolutely".

One of the well explained answer, what Martial law can bring and can be turned into.

[cooljat]

.

Bhai, I concur with your pragmatic viewpoint here. You're right, I was wasting my energy here in vain. Most of the educated intellect ppl here are very afraid of their freedom therefore they are reluctant for any sort of change as that will pull them out of their comfort zone. I think we have to encourage the deprived ppl who are being affected most, they for sure bring the the revolution and radical change.

I wish Martial law or something like that take over of corrupt democracy sooner than later and save this country from being a failed state , Amen! ..



This is my final post, over and out.






Jit, the question is not about being supporter of democracy or martial law rather having an system that helps in bringing prosperity, stability, equality and overall peace in the country.
It is true that there is no alternate of democracy but the fact is that democracy become a sheer mockery in India. Today we have a system that is of NO USE.

but there is no point in discussing about a change here on this PLATFORM. This country need a Revolution to bring a drastic change in the current system and revolution can't be brought by discussing among so called intellects. if you think that by discussing about a change here on this portal you can change the mindset of the members then you are totally mistaken buddy..Bhains ke age bheen bajane se kuch nahi hota..

better discuss with the people who are worst affected of this katam system. It is this deprived section of the society who have the guts to bring the revolution.. so better to take them along with you..

OR if you think you can't do this then buddy lets wait and watch..As Jagmohn Uncleji said many a coups are already underway in this country..

[sanjeev_balyan]

.

Bhai, I concur with your pragmatic viewpoint here. You're right, I was wasting my energy here in vain. Most of the educated intellect ppl here are very afraid of their freedom therefore they are reluctant for any sort of change as that will pull them out of their comfort zone. I think we have to encourage the deprived ppl who are being affected most, they for sure bring the the revolution and radical change.

I wish Martial law or something like that take over of corrupt democracy sooner than later and save this country from being a failed state , Amen! ..



This is my final post, over and out.



Jit bhai, martial law is not the solution of the situation. Moreover Army (Defence) is not trained for civil administration. Army job is different and if they are called to govern the country than there will be failure only. Countries, mentioned in various posts , where Army is ruling the country, is the example. JISKA KAM USSI KO SADHE.
There is a dire need to have some changes in present system of administration and politics. Why u have given up that this sys cant be overhauled. Strong will power is required and this will power has to be shown by our top leaders. It can be dragged on right track But there is big silence on this front. CWG is the live example. Every ghapla in CWG is open now but no action. Our PM seems to be a puppet only. lets hope , improvement will be there

[vijay123]

I dont understand why you even started this post and invited thoughts when you were not ready for them... you are behaving like a stubborn child who start crying the minute he does not get something he asks for. Rather than calling names you should put your arguments in favor of your beloved "martial rule". Why would "educated intellect ppl" or "uneducated" have to follow whatever you are preaching? Remember it is still democracy in India and not martial rule.


.

Bhai, I concur with your pragmatic viewpoint here. You're right, I was wasting my energy here in vain. Most of the educated intellect ppl here are very afraid of their freedom therefore they are reluctant for any sort of change as that will pull them out of their comfort zone. I think we have to encourage the deprived ppl who are being affected most, they for sure bring the the revolution and radical change.

I wish Martial law or something like that take over of corrupt democracy sooner than later and save this country from being a failed state , Amen! ..



This is my final post, over and out.

[bls31]

Till now no retired or serving officer of Services has commented as we are all conditioned to be apolitical and do not think about Marshal Law or Military rule.

We already have have enough on our plate to be ready to defend the border and being called to sort out every mess made by civil in aptitude or natural causes.

In the process every day we are losing a couple of young officers or soldiers.

Military puts on boot and let the boots remain where they are at required.

Rest assured there is going to be no Military rule or Marshal law.

Bls31

[nikitasheoran19]

I agree with the views of Mr.Mukesh Samota regarding the need for radical changes required in our existing political system. Not only system but we need changes on our personal fronts also because precisely, this system is from us, for us n most importantly,' by us’. Our ignorance is the bone of contention 4 most of the prevailing problems. Be it the filthiness of our state or the rampant corruption, our ignorance n CHALTA HAI ATTITUDE are d real culprits. Martial law will further screw up our nation which is already screwed to saturation. It will dilute the efficiency of our army because defending n governing a country of billion is not a child's play. Martial law will do more harm than good n it is quite evident from the pitiful condition of our beloved neighbour PAKISTAN. There, army solely concentrates on defence front while people cry themselves hoarse 4 their much needed rights. Their liberties are curtailed like anything n only one reason dat can be attributed to this mess is.......ABSENCE OF DEMOCRACY n dats y i wonder ,y are we hell bent upon doing away with this mocked yet great institution?? Vp Singh sir aptly pointed out the need for administrative reforms. Youth wings of many political parties are doing a commendable job in this direction. Banking on youth 4 radicalizing our system can be of great help. Civic sense is least in the countries under martial law whereas, the picture is rosy in most of the democratic nations.So, i somewhat disagree wid the suggestion that ml can bring civic sense in people. Same Homo sapiens reside in Chandigarh, Goa, Pondicherry and B’lore as they do in other parts of our country but, what segregates them from the rest of the dodos is their sense of responsibility towards their state n an able administrative set up with good accountability. We need same accountability in other parts of our country also. Moreover; problems like naxalism are due to the oppression of the poor n down trodden n martial law may lead to their more unnecessary oppression n...UNNECSSARY OPRESSION PAVES WAY FOR ENHANCED AGRESSION .our country already has ample aggression n v can't afford more of it. Martial law will further complicate this issue.Need of the hour is to reform our present administrative set up. Martial law can't be successful in a country as diverse, vast n strife torn as ours. I propose the views of Mr. V Pannu n Mr. Atismohan also .In nutshell, democracy is any day better than martial law.

[vijay]

What we want to be depneds on what we like to think or see ?

We ( read Indians ) got Independence in 1947 and were nowhere at world stage. Within just 60 years we are almost a superpower ( obviously with some doubts .. but almost there ). Ins't it an achievement ? People are free to consider me a highly optimistic individual but i would like to follow the constructive approach instead of a negative and destructive path.

I admire the Men In Green for their dedication towards the country WITHOUT ANY DOUBT.

I agree that our system is setting up some bad examples regarding corruption, law, administration and ..... OK .... almost all the spheres of any civilization.

But what's the solution ?

Inviting some dictator to fix us ?

And they, generally, fix it absolutely. lets check the results :

Pakistan cured everything within a flash after the Marshal Law. Myanmaar is doing wonderful job, Bangladesh is a world leader after military coup, North Korea is the most respected and responsible country, Congo and Zaire are most honest countries while Zimbabwe is the superpower.

Once Men In Green would take over, everyone would become honest, responsible and civilized. पढ़े लिखे गंवार would become intelligent people, urban jerks would start respecting villagers, inferiority and/or superiority complexes would be neutralized and ...... and ...... and ..........GOD BLESS.

So called intellectual are really dangerous people who provide some genuine and reasonable arguments in simple and sober manner while so called die hard nationalists are the real heroes of the mass whose every alternative sentence is concluded with couple of slang with asterisks.

If i feel that i am having a headache i would like to visit a nearby Chemist instead of shouting from my rooftop or starting a thread about it.

[VirJ]

Jit, What this country missed or missing is called social revolution not martial law. Yes, we missed that. We did have some revolutions in the past like 1857(limited to some areas) and our long freedom struggle. But they were not social revolution. We probably would have had it by now if we were not had been under foreign rule for so many years (probably should say centuries).

Every country needs revolution at some stage. We missed it for obvious reasons because first we were not a political unit. Second we were under foreign occupation. Gandhi ji made us realise that we are 1 country and then we were busy in long freedom struggle. We should have had this social revolution by now but for many well known reasons, we missed it.

But this is also true that a social revolution is inevitable. It will come but would take time. Resentment among people like you is that spark that would bring it.

[vijay123]

Very true Vipin. The social revolution is already underway, hopefully govt will realize this sooner or later and act accordingly. We should be thankful to God that this nation has not seen any Army coup and our Army is very mature and responsible in the way they deal with politics. Look at the Retd Gen Sarath Fonseka in Sri Lanka, he was a hero post LTTE defeat but he prematurely entered into politics and recently got court martial too.

[singhvp]

Hmmm .. You're being negative here Sir, It can be other way round. I've belief in our Armed Forces, they will take care of this screwed up situation. Don't we call Army to take care of situation if it gets worse and that's the need of hour here. Holy Cow .. not in a good taste Sir, our brave officers and soldiers giving their lives for the country and you're saying them holy cows, great! These parasites politicians keeping our armymen' life on stack just to personal benifits and you're calling them Holy cows. Sarcasm is not good always, first do some analysis between Army officials and the corrupt IAS, politicans and govt officials then comment!



So what kinda readical refroms you suggest in practical sense? Let me know if you've any better solution then Martial Law to eliminate these spineless parasaits who are runing our country like termites.


That was not intended to suspect the integrity and efficiency of our armed forces. But these praiseworthy traits do not entitle any country’s army to trample the civilian rights underfoot. Freedom is so dear to every creature that it cannot be bartered with anything; and freedom to humans cannot be guaranteed under any system except in democracy. It was only to achieve this precious tool that Bhagat Singh and many other revolutionaries sacrificed their lives in the prime of their youth. (आजादी के मायने डाल पर बैठी उस मैना से पूछो जो चमन की मस्त बहारो का लुत्फ़ उठाती झूम झूम कर गाती है. सोने के पिन्जरे मे कैद पन्छी को चमन की बहारो का एहसास कहा. यही हाल है उन देशो के अवाम का जो आज भी तानाशाही इसलि*ए झेल रहे है कि उन्हे शायद आजादी की मदमस्त बहारो के लुत्फ़ का अन्दाज नही. मगर हम लोग जो स्वतन्त्रता के आदि हो चुके है अब शायद फ़ौजी गुलामी को ना झेल पाये क्योकि ये गुलमी हमे सिर्फ़ एक सोने के पिन्जरे का अहसास करवा सकती है स्व्छन्द हवा*ओ का नही)

True, we call the army in the hour of need. But we tend to gloss over the naked truth that people join army not with the basic objective of sacrificing their lives and comforts for the sake of nation. It is their economic needs which compel them to choose it as a career. I, however, offer ‘green salute’ to those who fell for the nation while performing their duties, which is really a heroic deed. Insofar as the army officials being less corrupt in comparison to the IAS and politicians is concerned, the fact of the matter is that they get less opportunity for being corrupt. Politicians and civil authorities get better chances of wheeling dealing with the business lobby which makes them corrupt. . (BTW all is not well in army too. Our boys who are recruited to defend the nation are used by the super-madams in army as orderlies for performing various domestic duties over and above entitlement of their husband officers, unofficially, which is also a kind of corruption and violation of human rights).

For the sake of argument, even if it is accepted that corruption in army is 0%, it does not have a magic rod to stem the rot. India has already witnessed dictatorship from 1975-77 which was, in no way, less nasty than Martial law. Was Indira Gandhi able to cleanse the dirt of corruption with her iron hand? Politics is an inalienable part of our life and politicians are indispensable. Need of the hour is to replace corrupt and inefficient politicians with honest and able politicians. Unfortunately, we the ‘self-proclaimed’ educated people are giving only a lip service without doing anything worthwhile. An illiterate but honest politician is always better than autocratic, protocol conscious and potentially corrupt super-soldier.

No system is complete in itself and so is democracy which is bound to have its inherent flaws. Inspite of its naturally inherent flaws, it is the best system by far which needs to be improvised. Please do not prescribe quinine for diabetes. You have mentioned about ignorance and lack of civic sense. These things are by-products of illiteracy and impoverishment. Here I quote one urdu couplet which goes as under:

नूर-ए-सर्माया से होती है रू-ए-तमद्दुन की ज़िला
हम जहा रहते है वहा तह्ज़ीब नही पल सकती
मुफ़लिसी हिस्से लताफ़त मिटा देती है
भूख आदाब के सान्चो मे नही ढल सकती


नूर-ए-सर्माया= दौलत की रोशनी
रू-ए-तमद्दुन = सभ्यता का चेहरा
ज़िला = चमक
हिस्से लताफ़त = कोमलता क भाव

[anilsangwan]

If one goes by this post, need is to have fair and faster "judicial" system and not "martial law" in the country.

The point - how Army rule will curb the corruption, inflation and other challenges "better" than the current system is not seen anywhere.





As Jaggu Uncle earlier mentioned and I kept telling that corruption is there in Army too but as soon it comes in front, the guilty person faces the hard punishment be it Lt Gen or simple soldier .. all are treated same. On the other hand, see the scenario in Civil .. ppl like kalmadi, Lalu, Gauda and almost all of them have scams of thousands of crores on their name and living like kings without any fear. THAT's THE DIFFERENCE !!!!

[anilsangwan]

Bhai I 'concur' with your 'pragmatic viewpoint' here. :rock



One of the well explained answer, what Martial law can bring and can be turned into.



Also, bit linked to this topic.... This kind of protests are possible only in democratic setup!!!!



http://www.bhaskar.com/article/HAR-OTH-mahendragarh-shoe-thrown-at-chief-minister-hooda-1284242.html

महेंद्रगढ़. राजनेताओं पर जूता फेंके जाने की घटनाओं में हरियाणा के मुख्यमंत्री भूपेंद्र सिंह हुड्डा भी शामिल हो गए हैं। महेंद्रगढ़ के आईटीआई मैदान मंे अपने सम्मान में हुई रैली में शामिल होने गए सीएम के साथ यह घटना घटी। हालांकि सीएम तक यह जूता पहुंच नहीं पाया। इस घटना से एकबारगी तो सीएम भी सकपका से गए।



उन्होंने उसी समय अपने आपकों संभाल लिया और यह बात कहकर इस घटना को हल्के में लिया कि जिले के विकास को किसी की नजर न लग जाए, इसलिए यह शगुन के तौर पर है। खास बात यह कि जूता फेंकने वाला युवक भी सीएम के गृहजिले रोहतक का है। आईटीआई मैदान में मुख्य संसदीय सचिव और स्थानीय विधायक राव दानसिंह के संयोजन में रविवार को सम्मान रैली हुई।

रैली में मुख्यमंत्री भूपेंद्र सिंह हुड्डा विभिन्न परियोजनाओं का उद्घाटन करने के बाद दो बजकर दस मिनट पर पहुंचे। मुख्य गेट से ही उनका स्वागत शुरू कर दिया गया था। स्टेज पर पहुंचने के बाद उनका स्वागत शुरू हुआ। इसके बाद अन्य वक्ताओं ने संबोधन किया। तीन बजे सीएम ने जनता का अभिवादन कर बोलना शुरू किया। पांच मिनट के बाद रैली स्थल के बीच बनी गैलरी में एक युवक आया और नारेबाजी करते हुए सीएम के बैठने की तरफ जूता फेंक दिया।

उसी समय वहां खड़े कांग्रेसी कार्यकर्ताओं ने युवक को पकड़ लिया और पुलिसकर्मियों के सहयोग से युवक को पलक झपकने से पहले ही बाहर ले गए। युवक की पहचान रोहतक जिले के गांव बनियानी के शक्ति सिंह के रूप में हुई है। सीएम पर जूता फेंकने का कारण सरकार से उससे पूर्व समय में किए गए एक वायदे को पूरा न करने पर है।



पुलिस हिरासत में लिए गए शक्ति ने बताया कि वह और उसका एक साथी सीडी विवाद में पुलिस की गोली से घायल हो गए। उसके पेट में पुलिस की गोली लगी थी, जिसे रोहतक मेडिकल कॉलेज में उपचार के दौरान निकाला गया तथा उसकी जान बच गई। मेडिकल कॉलेज में इलाज के दौरान किसी तरह का मुकदमा दर्ज न कराने की शर्त पर उसे मुख्यमंत्री से आश्वासन मिला कि उसे सरकारी नौकरी के साथ-साथ 10 लाख रुपए मुआवजा भी दिया जाएगा।



उसने बताया कि एक वर्ष बीत जाने के बाद भी उसे इलाज के सिर्फ 75 हजार रुपए मिले हैं। अब तक उसे न कोई नौकरी मिली और न कोई मुआवजा। उसने बताया कि वे पांच भाई-बहन है। आजीविका का कोई साधन नहीं है। इस बात से दु:खी होकर उसने मंच की ओर जूता फेंका ताकि या तो पुलिस उसे मार दे या उसे न्याय मिले।



घटना के समय स्टेज पर रैली के आयोजक मुख्य संसदीय सचिव राव दानसिंह, शिक्षा मंत्री गीता भुक्कल, नारनौल के विधायक राव नरेन्द्र सिंह,अटेली की विधायक एवं मुख्य संसदीय सचिव अनिता यादव, मुख्य संसदीय सचिव चौ. धर्मवीर सिंह, सीपीएस जलेब खान, दादरी के विधायक सतपाल सांगवान, अलवर के विधायक सीताराम झुली, पूर्व विधायक राधेश्याम शर्मा, मुख्यमंत्री के राजनैतिक सलाहकार प्रो. विरेन्द्र सिंह, आदि भी मौजूद थे।



सीएम पर जब जूता फेंका गया, उस समय सीएम एसवाईएल पर बोल रहे थे। उनका कहना था कि विधानसभा में भी यह बात प्रमाणित हुई है कि एसवाईएल का पानी न आने पर इनेला दोषी है। उसी समय भीड़ में से उनकी तरफ जूता उछल गया। एक बार तो सीएम सकपका से गए, पर भाषण को न रोकते हुए उन्होंने कहा कि ये इसी तरह के लोग हैं।



यह बात गलत है, तरीका गलत है पर एक बात मेरी भी सुन लो। रैली में अनुशासन की कोई कमी नहीं थी, इस तरह की काली हांडी दिखाने वाले आ ही जाते हैं। मुख्यमंत्री ने चुटकी लेते हुए कहा कि जहां की तस्वीर और तकदीर में चार चांद लगते हैं, वहां नजर न लगने के लिए काली हांडी रखी जानी जरूरी होती है। उसी तरह कुछ लोगों की यह शरारत महेंद्रगढ़ के विकास पर नजर न लगने की घटना है।



महेंद्रगढ़ में सीएम पर जूता फेंके जाने की कोई घटना नहीं हुई है। रैली में दो युवकों के बीच आपसी मामले पर कुछ विवाद हुआ था। इसका रैली से कोई संबंध नहीं है। हमने किसी को भी हिरासत में नहीं लिया है।

[narendersingh]

Janta to Lath sey hee ruktee hai.Iskey liye to itihas bhee gawah hai.I agree to your point.Seeing the political scenerio Bansi Lal was a true administrator.He was poverty,droughts.He came from rural,backward area ,the then kala paani as said by Sardar Kairon Singh when he was on visit on this side.During that time the old police station at Badhra(Bhiwani) was for prisoner.It was the local kaalaa paani during the raja rule.Bansi lal went through that time and was tough(Bheeter tai jama pacca pada thaa) Samay kee maar sey. Saath mein Gayaa kaa bhachdaa thaa (Sanjay Gandhi) as Bansi Lal use to say.

See the time of Devi Lal. Nabey mein sey peechasee thee pher bhee gadee chalee gayee.Aur Chautala ney jab uper lath rakh deeya kee ess-say tal e -tal keemee karo. ess sey ooper nahee.MLA bhee moota kardey.Janta joot sey maantee hai.MLA bhee padarey kar deeye . Ab to Hooda sahab key time mein administration jama saand kee tareeyaa haand sey.Koi naqel konee.Leader to wahee hai jeeskee atma saaf ,kathor,dabang hogee.bakee to darbari,jee hoojuree.Maans kee joonn mein dhakay tein hee...

Work should be done.Of course punctuality should be there.If you change yourself,society will change.That is for sure.First you have to take oath within yourself.If you breach the contact,then mashaallah no one stop the prevailing system as discussed above previously.May the Almighty provide the inner strength so that we can improve our own self,innerself from today,now on wards.Kahee sey to suruwat karnee padeygee .Kyon nahee ishee pal sey.To ho jao suru Ab sey.Your time starts now.....






You forgot one option " e. Emergency" as imposed by "Respected Saas of Italian blonde Bahu" in 1977. That can be one option too. .... But we need to search for people who can play the roles of Sanjay Gandhi, Bansilal and "Saasu ji" herself.... :rock :rock

[deepakchoudhry]

Jit, Don't even go there. I know there is frustration but Democracy is the way forward. Even in the west it took some time. It is constant evolution. India in on the right path. Don't stop questioning, make people accountable and reward people who deliver.

[prashantacmet]

These armymen look worse than politicians

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/adarsh-scam-was-this-general-the-mastermind-63677

[cooljat]

Worse than politicians .. are you sure? then check this interesting article :

http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/clicklit/entry/why-mr-chavan-needn-t-worry


As once Jaggu uncle said, Armymen haven't come from Mars they are normal human being like us, its their training, discipline n' way of life that makes it different. There're black sheep everywhere but you know when the corrupt Armymen are caught, they can't escape be it soldier or office all have to face court marshal and punished hard.


These armymen look worse than politicians

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/adarsh-scam-was-this-general-the-mastermind-63677

[singhvp]

It is only in a democratic system of governance that the deadly nexus between corrupt politicians and top brass of Indian bureaucracy (including defence personnel) can be brought into public domain by media. Martial law will never offer the luxury to media/NGOs/public to publicise scandals involving military generals and their cohorts. In democracy people have, at least, a choice not to vote for corrupt politicians but under Martial Law it is difficult to oust the corrupt military junta; Myanmar is one of the examples. If given absolute power, Generals are going to be absolutely corrupt. So better let them remain less corrupt in democracy rather than making them absolutely corrupt.

[Arvindc]

It is only in a democratic system of governance that the deadly nexus between corrupt politicians and top brass of Indian bureaucracy (including defence personnel) can be brought into public domain by media. ....

Yesterday (Friday) I had gone to the supreme court to attend a hearing of an SLP. There, I saw stationed, a dozen of camera people. Curious, I went there and had a chat with one of the reporters. During my small chat I found that the reporters are only interested in who the party's are and who the lawyer is. The real story isn't of any interest. So you see, what interest's the media in even in the democracy. So you see, just like every one, like the goondas, corrupt, rapist and killers, the media also has democracy to choose what is to be brought out to the public.

I recently read comments of eminent peoples which said, the media reporting in Pakistan is much better then in India. (Link: http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?267553)

[singhvp]

Yesterday (Friday) I had gone to the supreme court to attend a hearing of an SLP. There, I saw stationed, a dozen of camera people. Curious, I went there and had a chat with one of the reporters. During my small chat I found that the reporters are only interested in who the party's are and who the lawyer is. The real story isn't of any interest. So you see, what interest's the media in even in the democracy. So you see, just like every one, like the goondas, corrupt, rapist and killers, the media also has democracy to choose what is to be brought out to the public.

I recently read comments of eminent peoples which said, the media reporting in Pakistan is much better then in India. (I will soon paste the link of this media analysis here)

In democracy, apart from media there are NGOs and even private individuals who can lodge a Public Interest Litigation or FIR in public interest if any case of corruption, scandal comes to their notice. A case in point is the FIR going to be lodged today by Dr. Kiran Bedi, Baba Ramdev, Arvind Kejriwal and Swami Agnivesh against the scam in Commonwealth Games as highlighted by media. The fact was disclosed by Ms. Kiran Bedi herself last week when I happened to meet and listen to her lecture on various social issues including corruption in high places. She lashed heavily at the nexus between corrupt bureaucrats (including Defence personnel) and the politicians in the presence of some top bureaucrats, which she would'nt have been able to do in a military regime. I posted about this briefly on facebook also. The link is given below.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=443273402100&set=a.443273397100.242125.631482100&notif_t=like
11035

This kind of liberty to a common man or NGOs is not allowed in Martial Law. Therefore, for those who want to breathe in open and fresh air, democracy is the only option.

[Arvindc]

Yesterday (Friday) I had gone to the supreme court ....
cont..

This is an interesting article carried out by Outlook. All blind followers of democracy should read it. It mainly talks about how, the media's propaganda makes the real truth illusive.

--- To give you an idea here is the starting portion of the article. ------------------

Noam Chomsky has a veritable cult following among those who are sceptical about views the liberal media espouses and government propaganda machinery spawns to suit their often overlapping agendas. Compelling is his criticism, breathtaking is his knowledge, persuasive is his voice, and deep runs his humanity. This 82-year-old Professor Emeritus of Linguistics at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Boston, has written over 100 books and is considered the doyen of modern linguistics. To the world outside the academia, though, he’s more famous as America’s leading dissident intellectual whose instinct it is to expose the hypocrisy of the powerful. His awesome credentials inspired The New York Times to describe him as “arguably the most important intellectual alive”.

On the 15th anniversary of Outlook, Ajaz Ashraf and Anuradha Raman talked to Chomsky over the phone on aspects of the crisis plaguing the media. These included the questions you readers have often wondered about: Is the media really free? Or is it the handmaiden of the elites, the state? And how does one distinguish propaganda from news? Speaking with the candour and brilliance typical of his writing, Chomsky says the crisis in the media is not a result of its declining revenues as much as its intellectual dishonesty. He also sprang a few surprises—for instance, he finds the media in Pakistan more vibrant than it is in India. Excerpts:

Why do you say the idea of a liberal media is a myth?

I don’t. Some of my friends and colleagues do. My own view is that the media, the major media, the New York Times and so on, tend to be what is called liberal. Of course, liberal here implies highly supportive of state power, state violence and state crimes. I, though, don’t deny that liberal means, more or less, being in favour of civil rights, social programmes, roughly what’s called social democratic in much of the world.

Do you think the so-called liberal media really serves that purpose?

Yes, to some extent, but their major commitment is to the centres of power—state and private.

You have in mind America’s recent wars?


As soon as the plan to invade Iraq was announced, the media began serving as a propaganda agency for the government. The same was true for Vietnam, for state violence generally. The media is called liberal because it is liberal in the sense that Obama is. For example, he’s considered as the principled critic of the Iraq war. Why? Because, right at the beginning, he said it was a strategic blunder. That’s the extent of his liberalism. You could read such comments in Pravda in 1985. The people said that the invasion of Afghanistan was a strategic blunder. Even the German general staff said that Stalingrad was a strategic blunder. But we don’t call that principled criticism.

You once said, “Propaganda is to democracy what violence is to totalitarianism.” Do you mean that propaganda enables the elite to dull the will of people, depriving them of the capacity to make political choices?

That clearly is its goal, in fact its stated goal. Back in the 1920s, it used to be frankly called propaganda. But the word acquired a bad flavour with Nazism in the 1930s. So now, it’s not called propaganda any more. But they were right in the 1920s. The huge public relations industry, for example, has its goal to control attitudes and beliefs. Liberal commentators, like Walter Lippmann, said we have to manufacture consent and keep the rabble away from the decision-making. We are the responsible men, we have to make decisions and we have to be protected—and I quote Lippmann—“from the trampling under the rage of the bewildered herd—the public”. In the democratic process, we are the participants, they watch. And the task of intellectuals, media and so on is to make sure that they are quiet, subdued and obedient. That is the view from the liberal end of the spectrum. Yes, I don’t doubt that the media is liberal in that sense.
....read complete article at http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?267553

[Arvindc]

A case in point is the FIR going to be lodged today by Dr. Kiran Bedi, Baba Ramdev, Arvind Kejriwal and Swami Agnivesh against the scam in Commonwealth Games as highlighted by media. ...............
.......................
..... This kind of liberty to a common man or NGOs is not allowed in Martial Law. Therefore, for those who want to breathe in open and fresh air, democracy is the only option.

VP Singh Ji, if it takes people like Kiran Bedi, Baba Ramdev , et el to file an FIR of a widely known crime then how is it an example of democracy's success?? Singh ji do some pranayam and think. People like these are one in billions, and if they need to get involved in a such an elementary thing as filling of an FIR of a widely known crime then, you can easily understand what justice a common person is getting.

This is yet another example of failure of democracy.

Not to mention, other forms of governance also have some check and balances, otherwise they would not be surviving at all.

And yes an important thing:- when I say democracy then it means 'the Indian democracy' - which in real terms is an illusion of democracy.

[singhvp]

[QUOTE=Arvindc;255973]
Note to mention, other forms of governance also have some check and balances, otherwise they would not be surviving at all.

And yes an important thing:- when I say democracy then it means 'the Indian democracy' - which is real terms is an illusion of democracy.[/QUOTE


Are you in favour of replacing the existing system - democracy or whatever damn thing (illusion etc.) - with Martial law? Yes or No.

[Arvindc]

[QUOTE]


Are you in favour of replacing the existing system - democracy or whatever damn thing (illusion etc.) - with Martial law? Yes or No.

I am in favor of a true democracy where the law formation goes down to a level of a village. However, in the process of those reforms (which would be revolutionary), a Martial law in between is acceptable.

[bls31]

let us not even talk about Marshal Law. it soon turn in to dictator ship, does any one remember the emergency that was imposed and how it thwarted one and all , people living in fear of the midnight knock. when I joined at Delhi in 1976, I was told 'be careful of what you talk on telephone , every tenth call is monitored'. See what Marshal law imposed again and again did to Pakistan, Burma and the innumerable dictatorships of Africa, Marshal Law soon turns into Dictatorship. bls31

[vicky84]

Bhai I 'concur' with your 'pragmatic viewpoint' here. :rock
महेंद्रगढ़. राजनेताओं पर जूता फेंके जाने की घटनाओं में हरियाणा के मुख्यमंत्री भूपेंद्र सिंह हुड्डा भी शामिल हो गए हैं। महेंद्रगढ़ के आईटीआई मैदान मंे अपने सम्मान में हुई रैली में शामिल होने गए सीएम के साथ यह घटना घटी। हालांकि सीएम तक यह जूता पहुंच नहीं पाया। इस घटना से एकबारगी तो सीएम भी सकपका से गए।

Bhai it's a recurring story ;) .. Shoe hurled at Hooda sahab.. Ye dekho link ;)

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Haryana-CM-becomes-target-of-shoe-pelting-again/articleshow/7088170.cms

It seems too much freedom is also not good ;) ..but martial law...a BIG NO.

[dahiyavijay7]

Though I agree that corruption is rampant in Indian. But the solution is not Martial Law. What is the guarantee that all the problems that we are facing today shall be solved by the Military Ruler? The state of affairs in a country depend upon the human being, who rules the Country and not his education, his job or anything else. Two of the highest rank Military officers have been found guilty in the Adarsh Society Scam in Maharashtra. Earlier also the Chief of Navy was found guilty in some corruption case. Just because somebody is in the military or Judiciary could not be given a clean chit. Recently, several Judges have also been named in Scams. Anybody could be found monsterous. What if a Military Ruler becomes a dictator and start working against the interests of common public and start abusing the justice?
The need of hour is the good leader!
Now, one may arise the question, where shall we find a good leader. In this regard, I would like to say that it could be you or me or anybody or all of us together. We people who boast that we are educated, cultured and corruption free then why don't we take step to change this system. Why do we vote to corrupt people for petty self-interests.
We need to rise and relinquish our petty self interest and fight for truth and justice!

[anilsangwan]

I 'concur' with you Dahiya saab !!!! Martial law option is a foolish idea to try in India. Either dictators or foolish leaders/people can think of it.



Though I agree that corruption is rampant in Indian. But the solution is not Martial Law. What is the guarantee that all the problems that we are facing today shall be solved by the Military Ruler? The state of affairs in a country depend upon the human being, who rules the Country and not his education, his job or anything else. Two of the highest rank Military officers have been found guilty in the Adarsh Society Scam in Maharashtra. Earlier also the Chief of Navy was found guilty in some corruption case. Just because somebody is in the military or Judiciary could not be given a clean chit. Recently, several Judges have also been named in Scams. Anybody could be found monsterous. What if a Military Ruler becomes a dictator and start working against the interests of common public and start abusing the justice?
The need of hour is the good leader!
Now, one may arise the question, where shall we find a good leader. In this regard, I would like to say that it could be you or me or anybody or all of us together. We people who boast that we are educated, cultured and corruption free then why don't we take step to change this system. Why do we vote to corrupt people for petty self-interests.
We need to rise and relinquish our petty self interest and fight for truth and justice!

[cooljat]

.

It should be like this n' it should be that way .. all these should-would talks are merely idealistic n' airy thoughts and I seriously doubt there practicality. I don't see any ray of hope in future nor do I expect the change. Therefore the only quick and dirty way is to impose Martial Law, that's the only practical solution I see.

Why you all looking at the possible negative impacts of the Martial Law, try to think other way round there're certainly more positive aspects too. Democracy works only where sensible n' responsible ppl live who understand n' care for their duties as well. Visit abroad to some devolved countries and observe, am sure the exp itself will break your boasting image of our country and the ppl. Discipline n' civic sense will not be adopted automatically, it must be imposed so we learn that hard way.

[kapdal]

.

It should be like this n' it should be that way .. all these should-would talks are merely idealistic n' airy thoughts and I seriously doubt there practicality. I don't see any ray of hope in future nor do I expect the change. Therefore the only quick and dirty way is to impose Martial Law, that's the only practical solution I see.



That's what we were told in 1975 when emergency was promugated.


.

Why you all looking at the possible negative impacts of the Martial Law, try to think other way round there're certainly more positive aspects too. Democracy works only where sensible n' responsible ppl live who understand n' care for their duties as well. Visit abroad to some devolved countries and observe, am sure the exp itself will break your boasting image of our country and the ppl. Discipline n' civic sense will not be adopted automatically, it must be imposed so we learn that hard way.


There are many ways to look at this.

1. A nation is not merely a piece of land. People FORM a nation. You can't claim to love the nation and hate the people. Considering that you really look down upon the Indian masses, why bother about India? Just leave the damn place and make home where ever you like it the most. Lots of people do that, there is nothing wrong in it.

2. Going by your argument, which developed country can we visit to experience first hand the merits of Martial law: US, UK, Australia, Germany, France, Japan, Canada..? Which one? I can't think of any. Can you?

3. But that is not conclusive. After all, martial law may have merits, even if none of the developed countries are developed because of martial law. Then probably, we can learn the merits of martial law from places that did have it? How about Pakistan, Bangladesh, Iraq, North Korea, Burma, sub-Saharan Africa..? Any lessons?

[cooljat]

that's what we were told in 1975 when emergency was promulgated.
it was way better then, i believe. Already tasted it and after effects. Am sure it will work again and for better if we go with it.




1. A nation is not merely a piece of land. People form a nation. You can't claim to love the nation and hate the people. Considering that you really look down upon the indian masses, why bother about india? Just leave the damn place and make home where ever you like it the most. Lots of people do that, there is nothing wrong in it.i never said i hate the people, i said i hate their ignorance, careless attitude, lack of civic sense n' negligence to duties for nation. I hate corrupt ppl and politicians. India is my own country therefore i bother and no matter wherever i settle down but still my heart will go out for india cuz' its the country where i belong. I want to see a better india at granular level, better than the developed country. Wondering why u got frustrated ?



2. Going by your argument, which developed country can we visit to experience first hand the merits of martial law: Us, uk, australia, germany, france, japan, canada..? Which one? I can't think of any. Can you? you're mistaken here. I was comparing developed countries democracy with india. Democracy works where people are educated, sensible and rule followers. I been to australia and felt the difference. We stand no where to those countries when it comes to people in general. How they follow rules, their civic sense, honesty, sporty nature and many others. I want to see that sort of change in our people which will not be adopted automatically therefore forcefully implantation is the only way.


3. But that is not conclusive. After all, martial law may have merits, even if none of the developed countries are developed because of martial law. Then probably, we can learn the merits of martial law from places that did have it? How about pakistan, bangladesh, iraq, north korea, burma, sub-saharan africa..? Any lessons?compare it with democracy time in the countries u mentioned. How about pakistan and the martial law period. Compare musharaf's tenure with current democracy there. You'll get ur answers.

[kapdal]

Arre bhai mere, why do you think I am frustrated? If you don't want people to give their thoughts, why start a thread asking for the same?

Get whatever law you want, people don't change overnight. Beats me how martial law is supposed to make people honest, civilised, sporty, educated, sensible and what not! Maybe it'd also give everyone wings and then we can all go flutter flutter down under to show off our achievements to the Aussies..:)

That "democracy works for educated, sensible, etc etc." is a highly elitist position. The poor and the uneducated have as much right to decide the fate of their nation, as they FORM the nation. It is not a qualifying exam that Aussies have passed and Indians have failed.

Your argument on Pakistan frankly betrays ignorance as well as misapplication. Firstly, Pakistan has always been under the sway of army. Even now, Zardari can't go to the loo without asking for Kiyani's permission. Secondly, Musharaf's rule was not great either! All these problems were there, they are just going from bad to worse (with army still calling the shots). Moreover, what is happening in Pakistan right now is a consequence of Musharaf's tenure, and not of its absence!

It is funny that you actually end up giving examples that are against martial law, like India's emergency or Pakistan. On the former, it is universally accepted now that nothing good came out of emergency. That it was just used to perpertuate the gundagardi of the high and the mighty, newspapers were censored, all opposition was put behind bars, even unmarried people were forcibly sterilised and people thrown on burning tawas. Even Rahul Gandhi has admitted that there were excesses during emergency! And for benefits? Did it change anything? Or should India have remained in emergency sine die until people became sensible, civilised and honest (with the great irony being that those in charge were the most nonsensical, uncivilised and dishonest thugs).

And Pakistan! That country actually dismembered due to martial rulers like Ayub Khan and Yahya Khan, the latter slaughtering hundreds of thousands in East Pakistan, ostensibly in "national interest". He too thought that the poor and illiterate Bengalis didn't deserve democracy. Then came Zia ul Haq who talibanized the Pakistani army, the consequences of which Pakistan is still paying. Followed by Musharraf who institutionalised the jehadi-military complex. On a lighter note, I think Ayub Khan came up with a better reason for dictatorship than you have managed to cook up so far:
"We must understand that democracy cannot work in a hot climate. To have democracy we must have a cold climate like Britain."

More on Pakistan's tryst with army :
http://www.newstatesman.com/200206030017

[cooljat]

Kapil, Read my reply in-line ..


Arre bhai mere, why do you think I am frustrated? If you don't want people to give their thoughts, why start a thread asking for the same? Bhai mere, your particular that post describes that you kinda got frustrated.



Get whatever law you want, people don't change overnight. Beats me how martial law is supposed to make people honest, civilised, sporty, educated, sensible and what not! Maybe it'd also give everyone wings and then we can all go flutter flutter down under to show off our achievements to the Aussies..:)I know people don't change overnight but my question is how long this night is? Compare civilians and army men you'll find your answer. No need to get sarcastic here I mentioned the difference I felt clearly there. No doubt we have our own merits but we should be open to learn the positive traits of developed western countries specially civic sense, professionalism, sense of duty, law & order following and progressive thinking.



That "democracy works for educated, sensible, etc etc." is a highly elitist position. The poor and the uneducated have as much right to decide the fate of their nation, as they FORM the nation. It is not a qualifying exam that Aussies have passed and Indians have failed.Again idealistic thinking, agree with your statement but you got to look at the realities. They have rights but how many of them use it right way and isn't it govt's duty to make them educated, raise their life std instead of exploiting them and treat them just a vote bank?? And its not related to Aussies only but devloped countries in general you can compare and contrast with England too, if u like.


Your argument on Pakistan frankly betrays ignorance as well as misapplication. Firstly, Pakistan has always been under the sway of army. Even now, Zardari can't go to the loo without asking for Kiyani's permission. Secondly, Musharaf's rule was not great either! All these problems were there, they are just going from bad to worse (with army still calling the shots). Moreover, what is happening in Pakistan right now is a consequence of Musharaf's tenure, and not of its absence!

It is funny that you actually end up giving examples that are against martial law, like India's emergency or Pakistan. On the former, it is universally accepted now that nothing good came out of emergency. That it was just used to perpertuate the gundagardi of the high and the mighty, newspapers were censored, all opposition was put behind bars, even unmarried people were forcibly sterilised and people thrown on burning tawas. Even Rahul Gandhi has admitted that there were excesses during emergency! And for benefits? Did it change anything? Or should India have remained in emergency sine die until people became sensible, civilised and honest (with the great irony being that those in charge were the most nonsensical, uncivilised and dishonest thugs).

And Pakistan! That country actually dismembered due to martial rulers like Ayub Khan and Yahya Khan, the latter slaughtering hundreds of thousands in East Pakistan, ostensibly in "national interest". He too thought that the poor and illiterate Bengalis didn't deserve democracy. Then came Zia ul Haq who talibanized the Pakistani army, the consequences of which Pakistan is still paying. Followed by Musharraf who institutionalised the jehadi-military complex. On a lighter note, I think Ayub Khan came up with a better reason for dictatorship than you have managed to cook up so far:
"We must understand that democracy cannot work in a hot climate. To have democracy we must have a cold climate like Britain."
I've few friends from Pakistan and they always appreciated Musharaf's tenure and often said Pakistan was more stable, liberal and progressive in his time. This is not good to curse martial law or musharaf for failure of democracy instead it failed cuz neither leaders are capable enough nor the people.

As for emergency, it wasn't a martial law in real sense and I agree with the point that there would hv been few incidents where it was misused but still it worked better for time. I've respect for Indira Gandhi that's it .. her grandson is naive and I don't give a damn to his talks.

Ok! in my view imposing Martial Law is the only solution I foresee that can bring the positive change. As far I've seen in my life situations are getting worse day by day in democracy. Would highly appreciate if you have any better and creative idea to change this ever-worsening situation in our country. I got one apart from Martial Law .. how about creating one political party where all the candidates are serving army officers? They will fight election in democratic way and if chosen bring the welcome change with military leadership . What do you think??

[spdeshwal]

Bhai jit
Australia is not the best example of an ideal Democracy! Democratically elected PM, Kevin Rudd was dumped by his own party but the "Mining Money" played the main role! The situation of Law an order is not ideal either. There are places where drugs being supplied and distributed like "prasad".Government has no control over gangs and mafia! Police is corrupt too! Per capita crime would be much higher than India!

[cooljat]

Bhaisaab,

There's no ideal Democracy, politics everywhere is dirty. Like the term ' Kave (crows) har jagah kaale hi hote hein!' therefore more or less politicians are same everywhere. But if you compare with people in general you can see the basic and clear difference moreover its about the reach of people. Here in India we are living in illusion, our so called democracy is not a true democracy either. Here leaders and ministers act like dictators and oppressors and don't leave a chance to suck blood of poor people. Therefore as far I saw the difference between people, quality of life, value of life we stand no where compare to developed democratic countries.

Btw, Australia rated #2 in the 2010 list of Human Development Index rating means its the best place to live after Norway in the world. Check it here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index


Bhai jit
Australia is not the best example of an ideal Democracy! Democratically elected PM, Kevin Rudd was dumped by his own party but the "Mining Money" played the main role! The situation of Law an order is not ideal either. There are places where drugs being supplied and distributed like "prasad".Government has no control over gangs and mafia! Police is corrupt too! Per capita crime would be much higher than India!

[vicky84]

I 'concur' with you Dahiya saab !!!! Martial law option is a foolish idea to try in India. Either dictators or foolish leaders/people can think of it.

hahaha..Bhai bera na ke dikh rehya hai Army Men mai...hahahaha. Janu to Army men kisse aur Planet tai aa re hain.. Ibe to itne Martial pakde the corruption mai..Innai power dekai katii battha Gol kar diyo desh ka...hahahahaha..Itni power mile baad to ye katti bhi nahi bakshe desh nai..

[malikdeepak1]

Ghani dur kyu jana. J & K me ke Martial Law me koi kami rah rhi se? Army aale pahla goli mare se fer pooche se ke re kun tha yu!! Log army te nafrat kare hai ude. Sare ulte kaam kare se ye army aale ude. Ye e log je poore desh pe raaj karen laag ge to sare desh ka satyanash kar denge.


You can't change the mindset of 110 crore people by employing martial law. Ek apne apne gaam ne sudhaar lo, desh apne aap sudhar jaga!

Need of the hour is --> Dad mar ke so jao! kyuki yu kaam koe nahi karen aala. Sabne apne parivar te fursat koni, gaam guhand ne jib sudharenge.

[vicky84]

I think Democracy is a way to go. You cannot change everything so quickly. It takes some time to get everything organized. India is progressing and is on right path. Yes things are dirty at the moment but it needs some time to get everything sorted. Change is happening and is on its way.

[anilsangwan]

bhaio......Adarsh society ghotala has proved that even Army top brass can be utmost corrupt............Now dont tell that Maj Deepak Kapor was not top brass..... or he is one off case..... or army can deal with corruption better......... menne army ke jawaan gaadiyan ka petrol bhi chorte er bechte dekh raakhe sein.......... What martial law then? Ebb bhi discussion ki jarurat reh gi?

[VirJ]

.

The Martial Law

If a thing work for one country doesnt mean that will work for other. Lot of things depends on the 'culture' of a community as well. Moreover so far I couldnt understand what 'democracy' mean. There are 100 types of democracy even China claim they have democracy too.

Anyway, in a process the more check and balances you have the more chances are that you won't go wrong way unless all want to go wrong way(yes, that can happen too). Martial law has least check and balances. Our present democracy has greater check and balances than the purposed martial law. In short if martial law start going wrong way then we are doomed. So the purposal should be to increase check and balance in current situation not to reduce them.

[malikdeepak1]

bhaio......Adarsh society ghotala has proved that even Army top brass can be utmost corrupt............Now dont tell that Maj Deepak Kapor was not top brass..... or he is one off case..... or army can deal with corruption better......... menne army ke jawaan gaadiyan ka petrol bhi chorte er bechte dekh raakhe sein.......... What martial law then? Ebb bhi discussion ki jarurat reh gi?

Army has got one job to do. Protect the country from Pukistan and China (Courtsey Chacha Nehru). Let them do this efficiently first. There have been so many instances about their inefficiency. (Lukma ghuspaith karwawe hia, pise kha ke. 15 aavenge parle kane te, usme te 5 mar devenge er 10 bhitar baad levenge... Are they getting paid for this??). I agree such people are less in number, par yu ghunn to sari jagah laag rhya se. Ye adarsh aale scam to bhot choti cheej se ise kaama aage.

Let them be efficient in protecting our borders first. Martial Law can wait!

[singhvp]

hahaha..Bhai bera na ke dikh rehya hai Army Men mai...hahahaha. Janu to Army men kisse aur Planet tai aa re hain.. Ibe to itne Martial pakde the corruption mai..Innai power dekai katii battha Gol kar diyo desh ka...hahahahaha..Itni power mile baad to ye katti bhi nahi bakshe desh nai..फौजी सिपाही या non-commissioned अधिकारी अपने सिविल counterparts की तुलना में शायद कम भ्रष्ट हों लेकिन फ़ौज के उच्च अधिकारी तो खूब मलाई खाते हैं. विदेशों में सरकारी tour पर जब जाते हैं तो देश के गरीब लोगों की गाढ़ी कमाई को पानी की तरह बहाने में वे भी सिविल servants और मंत्रियों से कम नहीं. कई तो पूरी की पूरी family को सरकारी मेहमाननवाज़ी का ठाठ करवा देते हैं. आलीशान होटल, luxury गाड़ियाँ और Daily Allowance बगैरा देने में हमारी सरकार भी काफी उदार नीति अपनाती है क्योंकि देश की सुरक्षा का सवाल जो है. बाकी Defence Deals में कितनी transparency है यह भी आप सभी को मालूम है. हिंदुस्तान में रहते हुए भी इनके ठाठ बाट में कोई कमी नहीं होती. कई-कई सिपाही इनके घरों पर मुफ्त के नौकर होते हैं, सरकारी गाड़ियाँ व्यक्तिगत कामों के लिए इस्तेमाल होती हैं मसलन इनकी मेमसाहबों को bridge क्लब, किट्टी पार्टी या shopping ले जाना, सब्जियां, फल, कुत्ते किए बिस्कुट और कुत्ते का shampoo आदि लेने जाना, रिश्तेदारों को स्टेशन पर छोड़ कर आना इत्यादि ये सब काम सरकारी गाडी में आसानी से हों जाते हैं. जहाँ जहाँ procurement का मामला होता है वहीँ वहीँ कुछ कुछ होता है. अगर राजनैतिक आकाओं के मातहत रहते हुए ये लोग काफी मलाई खा लेते हैं तो खुद अपने राज में क्या हाल होगा यह तो आप अंदाजा लगा सकते हैं. फिर तो वही होगा "सैंयाँ भये कोतवाल तो डर काहेका".

PS: कोई फौजी भाई इसे व्यक्तिगत तौर पर ना ले क्योंकि पांचो उँगलियाँ बराबर नहीं होती. इस सब के बावजूद काफी इमानदार लोग भी हर महकमे में हमेशा होते हैं.

[cooljat]

Bhai mere J&K mein martial law lag rakha hai jab hi to bacha hua hai nahi to kabhi ka jaa leta. These bloody politicians don't want a proper solution of that issue as it's political fuel to them. Aur vaise bhi jo 'afspa' act laga hua hai usme bhi puri freedom nahi hai, nahi to ye Hurriyat aale aur militants kabhi ke saaf ho jaate. Aur Army wahan koi vacation banane nahi gayi hai, wahan relax na kar rehe vo .. chaathi pe goli kha rehe hein. Unhe marne-maarne mein maja nahi aata. And I wonder you believe on the people of J&K who want Kashmir to go into Pakistan.




Ghani dur kyu jana. J & K me ke Martial Law me koi kami rah rhi se? Army aale pahla goli mare se fer pooche se ke re kun tha yu!! Log army te nafrat kare hai ude. Sare ulte kaam kare se ye army aale ude. Ye e log je poore desh pe raaj karen laag ge to sare desh ka satyanash kar denge.


You can't change the mindset of 110 crore people by employing martial law. Ek apne apne gaam ne sudhaar lo, desh apne aap sudhar jaga!

Need of the hour is --> Dad mar ke so jao! kyuki yu kaam koe nahi karen aala. Sabne apne parivar te fursat koni, gaam guhand ne jib sudharenge.

This is generosity of our Army that it always keeps it away from govt and politics. But the day it start interfering into mainstream politics, ppl like u ll get serious lesson hard way. Aur ye bollywood ki movie dekh dekh ke Army pe sawal uthana chhod. Ghar pe computer chair pe bethe bethe ghanni baate aa rehi hai tanne. Agar dum ho to border pe jaa aur goliyon ke saamne khada ho jab bera paatega ke job hai Army ka.


Army has got one job to do. Protect the country from Pukistan and China (Courtsey Chacha Nehru). Let them do this efficiently first. There have been so many instances about their inefficiency. (Lukma ghuspaith karwawe hia, pise kha ke. 15 aavenge parle kane te, usme te 5 mar devenge er 10 bhitar baad levenge... Are they getting paid for this??). I agree such people are less in number, par yu ghunn to sari jagah laag rhya se. Ye adarsh aale scam to bhot choti cheej se ise kaama aage.

Let them be efficient in protecting our borders first. Martial Law can wait!

[malikdeepak1]

Bhai mere J&K mein martial law lag rakha hai jab hi to bacha hua hai nahi to kabhi ka jaa leta.

Kami eeb bhi na rah rhi jaan me. aadhe te faltu kashmir pe to tera "marshal law" controlled pakistan kabja kare baithya se.. baki aadhe ke cheen ne danda de rakhya se.

These bloody politicians don't want a proper solution of that issue as it's political fuel to them.
Yes agreed!
Aur vaise bhi jo 'afspa' act laga hua hai usme bhi puri freedom nahi hai, nahi to ye Hurriyat aale aur militants kabhi ke saaf ho jaate.
Aur Army wahan koi vacation banane nahi gayi hai, wahan relax na kar rehe vo .. chaathi pe goli kha rehe hein.

I did not comment on whole army.


Unhe marne-maarne mein maja nahi aata. And I wonder you believe on the people of J&K who want Kashmir to go into Pakistan.

Did I say anywhere that I believe J & K People? I suggest a Re-read once again. :)



You please first find out something substantial before commenting on my part. I again suggest you to do a lil search on JL itself to find out one of my replies to Mr. Rakesh Sehrawat on what I have done!. :)

This is generosity of our Army that it always keeps it away from govt and politics.

Great generosity!
Jya e te Wo Kapoor mhare Bhuppi dhore chithi likhta haande tha ke mera bhi bhala kar do flat-flut duwa ke????????

But the day it start interfering into mainstream politics, ppl like u ll get serious lesson hard way.

I will wait for that day! Hope it comes soon so that you are able to see. By the way, I could not see this happening anytime soon!

Aur ye bollywood ki movie dekh dekh ke Army pe sawal uthana chhod.

I'm not commenting based on some bollywood movies. I too have some close sources in your so called ARMY. It is not you alone who has links to the Army.

Ghar pe computer chair pe bethe bethe ghanni baate aa rehi hai tanne. Agar dum ho to border pe jaa aur goliyon ke saamne khada ho jab bera paatega ke job hai Army ka.

I dont need an advice from you on this. Dum civil area me bhi dikhaya ja sake. Border pe khada hona jaruri na se us khatir. You should have brave heart to do something for society, whatever way it is. Its not only Army which is driving the society. Aam aadmi chala rahe hai is desh ko. Army has been formed to protect the borders. I'm re-iterating, let them do this efficiently first.

Aade JL pe tu bhi computer pe baith ke e aangli peete se.. ghna te ghna Kise black berry pe peet-ta hoga




I'm not counting down the services of Army to the nation here. Only thing I wanted to say in my previous posts was that they too are corrupt. Ar bhai ye to apne khud ke faujiya ki daal roti me bhi rupiye khaave se.. Aape search kar lega net pe ak saboot dyu?????

You seem to be over-possessive about Army. If you are posting a thread then prepare yourself mentally also to face the other part of it. Each individual has his own views and "Democracy" has given them right to express them :)

[anilsangwan]

Deepak Bhai You have expressed a truth with facts.

Yoh dekh lo.... Foujiyaan ka Ration khaaniye :

http://indianmilitarynews.wordpress.com/2010/08/06/general-arrested-in-ration-scam/



I'm not counting down the services of Army to the nation here. Only thing I wanted to say in my previous posts was that they too are corrupt. Ar bhai ye to apne khud ke faujiya ki daal roti me bhi rupiye khaave se.. Aape search kar lega net pe ak saboot dyu?????

You seem to be over-possessive about Army. If you are posting a thread then prepare yourself mentally also to face the other part of it. Each individual has his own views and "Democracy" has given them right to express them :)

[cooljat]

I never denied they're 100% honest, as Jagmohan Uncle mentioned in one of the reply that Armymen didn't come from Mars they've come from our society but when some one found guilty be him General or a Soldier all are treated and punished equality that too in 30 days time frame. Compare with our civic judiciary and culprits you ll find your answer.

I'm not over-possessive but I respect our Army a lot for its honesty, valor, commitment for country, discipline and dedication and accountability. You compare Army's corrupt officials with Civil honest officers and get the result, I bet you'll get your answer who are more corrupt!

Yeah, each individual have right to express his views and one must do that but the views should get some sense n' worth and if it's senseless n' expressed just to make fun of the topic, they must be discarded.

Hope you got my point!

Cheers
Jit


I'm not counting down the services of Army to the nation here. Only thing I wanted to say in my previous posts was that they too are corrupt. Ar bhai ye to apne khud ke faujiya ki daal roti me bhi rupiye khaave se.. Aape search kar lega net pe ak saboot dyu?????

You seem to be over-possessive about Army. If you are posting a thread then prepare yourself mentally also to face the other part of it. Each individual has his own views and "Democracy" has given them right to express them :)

[Arvindc]

Looking at the current circumstances the option of Martial law should be taken into the list of alternatives. Specially because it is the most quick, practical and viable .. at least for the time being when other alternatives are chosen and refined.

We all know that there is a corruption in every corner of the country. Still we went on believing that at least the law takes its place when these are brought to light.

However, the recent publication of the Radia tapes and a complete zero action on them brings out the realty of the above myth.

Look at the tapes, there is a clear mention of the corruption, even at the supreme court level (CJI Y.K. Sabharwal and Vijender Jain).

Some transcripts of the tapes:

Here, lobbyist Niira Radia is chatting with Sunil Arora, former chairman of Air India and a serving bureaucrat. They are discussing corruption in the judiciary. Arora is telling her how judgements were fixed in the sealing cases in New Delhi when commercial areas and establishments in residential areas were sealed on the orders of erstwhile Supreme Court Chief Justice Y.K. Sabharwal. Arora informs Radia that a Delhi High Court judge, Justice Vijender Jain, was paid off Rs 9 crore in a sealing case by a middleman. The favourable judgement was written one month before it was delivered; the middleman was even given an advance copy. Justice Jain is referred to as Justice Sabharwal’s man.

Sunil Arora: Haan, ab to higher judiciary mein corruption bahut ho gayi na...

Niira Radia: Haan?

SA: Higher judiciary mein corruption bahut ho gayi na...

NR: Bahut zyaada, it’s like crazy situation...

SA: In the sealing cases, one chap had told me that he’ll get this judgement after one month.

NR: Haan.

SA: And he told me how much he had paid to whom.

NR: My god!

SA: I said, yaar, tum mazaak kar rahe ho. He said main aapko bata raha hoon ye judgement hai, and he broadly outlined the judgement...ki, this is to be pronounced after one month. To aap dekh lena, main khud hi copy le aaoonga uski...tab next time jab ho jayegi, woh le aaya copy.... He showed me, that order. He had paid 9 cr...as he claimed, at the residence.

NR: Kaun tha yeh?

SA: I mean this litigant had paid Rs 9 crore to that high court judge in Delhi.

NR: Good god!

SA: This is what he claimed...ki that I paid, at his home.

NR: Kaun sa judgement tha?

SA: Koi tha land deal, real estate ka.

NR: Pathetic ha? Yeh hai na, yeh Upendra Rai (a journalist) ka brother-in-law, jo bhi hai uska...cousin brother—Pradip Rai—yehi to kaam karta hai.

SA: And this gentleman ultimately became chief justice!

NR: My god!

SA: Jisne judgement diya tha...he became CJ (chief justice), abhi retire hua tha, Vijender Jain, naam bhi bataa deta hoon.

NR: Haan, I know.

SA: Jo Sabharwal (CJI Y.K. Sabharwal) ka khaas aadmi tha.

NR: Haan uske upar to problem hua tha na beech mein?

SA: Nahin par woh (Vijender Jain) to ban gaya CJ (of Punjab and Haryana High Court), ab to CJ ban ke retire bhi ho gaya hai. Kya farak pada...

You can listen to the tape (very clear voice) at http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?268405

[Arvindc]

More on the tapes...

The income-tax investigation of Radia started when P. Chidambaram, then finance minister, received a complaint dated November 16, 2007. It alleged that Radia had raised a Rs 300 crore empire in less than nine years and that she “was an agent of foreign intelligence agencies”. By August 2008, the income-tax department had enough material on her to begin raids. On August 19, 2008, a decision was taken to tap 14 of her personal and official phones, including those of her colleagues. The tapping, authorised by then Union home secretary Madhukar Gupta, continued for 120 days, till December 2008.

The income-tax department’s next round of surveillance began on May 8, 2009. “For some strange reason, surveillance had been stopped during the election period,” a senior intelligence official familiar with the inquiry told Outlook. After resuming, it ran for another 60 days, and ended on July 9, 2009. The leaked tapes all belong to this 60-day period.

Through Niira Radia, big business subverted government processes to its advantage. The full story is yet to out.



Worried about the national security implications of the tapes and the investigations, senior officials shot off a letter to Rajiv Mathur, director, Intelligence Bureau, on November 16, 2009. They pointed out that “an analysis of the intercepts suggested that some of the conversations were quite sensitive”. If this was the case, why did the government wait till December 15, 2010, to conduct the first raids on Radia? And what did the CBI hope to unearth almost two years after the income-tax department had begun investigations and interceptions? These are uncomfortable questions no one in the government seems to have answers for.


The most disturbing question, perhaps, is: What is the government doing about the massive manipulation of processes that has come to light after Outlook put up the tapes in the public domain? Consider some segments of the taped conversations: Sunil Arora, an IAS officer, tells Radia that a Delhi High Court judge was paid Rs 9 crore; a bureaucrat-turned-MP tells her Union minister Kamal Nath had gone through a “spectacular decline”; Tarun Das, a former industry lobbyist, calls Kamal Nath “Mr 15 per cent”. So why is the government’s anti-corruption machinery ignoring the contents of the tape ?
Taken from http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?269665

[Arvindc]

This one clearly substantiates the fact that corruption starts from top. So Mr PM is this country corrupt because you are the most corruptive of all?

Be warned, in the coming revolution you will also be tried!!


NR: Yeah. He is happy with Raja. Bit shocking for Kamal Nath. He needed to be told that he’d gone a bit overboard. What do you make of Anand Sharma?

TD: This is a very strong message to him (Kamal Nath). I know him (Anand Sharma) reasonably well, not too well. We’ll have to brief him. Educate him. He is new to this whole industry area. He’s the trusted person and he has worked hard in this system. It is a surprise. But it’s good. It’s thinking out-of-the-box for new names. Even Kamal Nath for transport was a surprise but between you and me I had suggested it for him. Big time. Because highway construction has to be a priority. He is a doer. You can make your 15 per cent on this. You can do national service, and also make money. And do really something worthwhile. Because Baalu has screwed up for five years.

NR: Yeah, this is still an ATM for Kamal Nath.

TD: Absolutely. You have a good trip.

Link: http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?269673

[singhvp]

@Arvind: Thanks to democracy, media is free to publish transcriptions of Radia Tapes which wouldn't have been a case in Martial Law. Now people have, at least, a choice to change the corrupt regime in the next general election. No such luxury will be given by the military Generals. Do you think there are no scandals in the countries ruled by military dictators? Let me cite the example of Zimbabwe. The dictator Mughabe has completely ruined the country which used to be a bread basket of Africa with a vibrant economy and flourishing democracy. While he has got a palatial house having amassed wealth in foreign banks, the country has gone to dogs. The economy has been totally shattered with stores empty and currency turning to just heap of trash. Two years back, the local shop-keepers/stores had stopped to accept local currency and only currency like US $, Pounds, Euro, South African Rands or Botswana Pula were acceptable. One can just imagine what would be the state of affairs when the currency of a country fails. If you want to replicate that situation in India, you are free to do so.

[vicky84]

Ye dekh lo Martial Law ke side effects. Pakistan is still struggling to restore democracy due to very powerful army ! Anyone who tried to take the power off from Army had to pay the consequences. The situation is Pakistan today is due to this Martial Effect!!





Pakistan crisis: Gilani backs off, Zardari takes off


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/pakistan/Pakistan-crisis-Gilani-backs-off-Zardari-takes-off/articleshow/11468305.cms (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/pakistan/Pakistan-crisis-Gilani-backs-off-Zardari-takes-off/articleshow/11468305.cms)



ISLAMABAD: A day after the spat between Pakistan's prime minister and the country's military brass degenerated into public sparring,
Yousaf Raza Gilani (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/topic/Yousaf-Raza-Gilani)
on Thursday sought to calm coup fears and denied he would follow his sacking of the defence secretary by dismissing the army and ISI chiefs.

[Fateh]

v
फौजी सिपाही या non-commissioned अधिकारी अपने सिविल counterparts की तुलना में शायद कम भ्रष्ट हों लेकिन फ़ौज के उच्च अधिकारी तो खूब मलाई खाते हैं. विदेशों में सरकारी tour पर जब जाते हैं तो देश के गरीब लोगों की गाढ़ी कमाई को पानी की तरह बहाने में वे भी सिविल servants और मंत्रियों से कम नहीं. कई तो पूरी की पूरी family को सरकारी मेहमाननवाज़ी का ठाठ करवा देते हैं. आलीशान होटल, luxury गाड़ियाँ और Daily Allowance बगैरा देने में हमारी सरकार भी काफी उदार नीति अपनाती है क्योंकि देश की सुरक्षा का सवाल जो है. बाकी Defence Deals में कितनी transparency है यह भी आप सभी को मालूम है. हिंदुस्तान में रहते हुए भी इनके ठाठ बाट में कोई कमी नहीं होती. कई-कई सिपाही इनके घरों पर मुफ्त के नौकर होते हैं, सरकारी गाड़ियाँ व्यक्तिगत कामों के लिए इस्तेमाल होती हैं मसलन इनकी मेमसाहबों को bridge क्लब, किट्टी पार्टी या shopping ले जाना, सब्जियां, फल, कुत्ते किए बिस्कुट और कुत्ते का shampoo आदि लेने जाना, रिश्तेदारों को स्टेशन पर छोड़ कर आना इत्यादि ये सब काम सरकारी गाडी में आसानी से हों जाते हैं. जहाँ जहाँ procurement का मामला होता है वहीँ वहीँ कुछ कुछ होता है. अगर राजनैतिक आकाओं के मातहत रहते हुए ये लोग काफी मलाई खा लेते हैं तो खुद अपने राज में क्या हाल होगा यह तो आप अंदाजा लगा सकते हैं. फिर तो वही होगा "सैंयाँ भये कोतवाल तो डर काहेका".

PS: कोई फौजी भाई इसे व्यक्तिगत तौर पर ना ले क्योंकि पांचो उँगलियाँ बराबर नहीं होती. इस सब के बावजूद काफी इमानदार लोग भी हर महकमे में हमेशा होते हैं.
VPJI, you will surprise to know that inspite of many incidents of defence officers regarding corruption coming to light, they are more honest than their counter part in civil. And there is no difference among lower ranks and officers, they all are same only difference is lower ranks have less opportunity/scope and what ever little they do, that donot come to light, However, still defence people comparatively are very honest, may be due to their culture of service, training, discipline, good administration and examples of honesty by seniors, You will agree that the best method of teaching is by self examples and if lower ranks are honest in defence services they are due to honesty of their seniors.

I personally donot recommend militry rule not becaause they are equally corrupt today, but certainly they will be corrupted if they get a chance to rule and I donot want one the best defence services of India get spoiled/corrupted, otherwise also in democracy after five years we get chance to change the rulers but if militry takes over, God knows when they allow elections, thus we must find alternatives within the present system only

[cooljat]

It's not a side effect or a bad thing rather it's good for Pakistan that it's again heading towards military coupe. Democracy in Pakistan is led by jokers and a total failure. Kindly compare and contrast Musharraf's tenure with any of recent democracy or I would suggest ask any of your Paki frens if you've any, I think they will present you the real picture.

In conclusion, I would like to add - 'A martial law is far far better than fouled fake democracy!'


Ye dekh lo Martial Law ke side effects. Pakistan is still struggling to restore democracy due to very powerful army ! Anyone who tried to take the power off from Army had to pay the consequences. The situation is Pakistan today is due to this Martial Effect!!





Pakistan crisis: Gilani backs off, Zardari takes off


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/pakistan/Pakistan-crisis-Gilani-backs-off-Zardari-takes-off/articleshow/11468305.cms (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/pakistan/Pakistan-crisis-Gilani-backs-off-Zardari-takes-off/articleshow/11468305.cms)



ISLAMABAD: A day after the spat between Pakistan's prime minister and the country's military brass degenerated into public sparring,
Yousaf Raza Gilani (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/topic/Yousaf-Raza-Gilani)
on Thursday sought to calm coup fears and denied he would follow his sacking of the defence secretary by dismissing the army and ISI chiefs.

[singhvp]

It's not a side effect or a bad thing rather it's good for Pakistan that it's again heading towards military coupe. Democracy in Pakistan is led by jokers and a total failure. Kindly compare and contrast Musharraf's tenure with any of recent democracy or I would suggest ask any of your Paki frens if you've any, I think they will present you the real picture.

In conclusion, I would like to add - 'A martial law is far far better than fouled fake democracy!'

Jit, should we be more concerned about a fake democracy in Pakistan or an ISI led terrorist State?

[vikasgulia]

Katju has been speaking some good stuff, one of those below:

Source : http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/article2790916.ece
Four People's Principles (Democracy one of them)

Only modern science can solve the many problems that India's masses face.

When we discuss science, we must ask what its purpose is. The answer, to my mind, is: to make our lives better and happier. Science is that knowledge by which we understand nature and harness it for our benefit.

Some people may oppose this view, saying that the atom bomb destroys lives, and that science has created weapons of destruction. Scientific knowledge can be misused, but also used to benefit mankind. But without science we will be living precarious, wretched lives.

An objection could also be raised that it is only the applied sciences (technology) that benefit people, not the fundamental sciences. It is true that a scientist doing fundamental research does not care whether his discoveries are of any utility or not. Newton and Einstein did not bother whether their discoveries would benefit mankind. However, these benefit mankind in the long run.

Today India faces huge problems; only science can solve them. Some 80 per cent of its people live in poverty, with unemployment, sky-rocketing prices, problems of healthcare, education and housing, and so on. Forty-eight farmers commit suicide on an average each day. And 47 per cent of the children are malnourished. Our national aim must be to abolish these evils and make India prosperous for all.

To address the problems, I present Four People's Principles (following Sun Yat Sen's Three People's Principles). These should be our guiding principles: Science, Democracy, Livelihood, and Unity of the People.

Science
When India was on the scientific path, it prospered. With the aid of science we built mighty civilisations thousands of years ago when most people in Europe (except in Greece and Rome) lived in the forests. We made outstanding scientific discoveries. However, we subsequently took to the unscientific path of superstition and ritual. The way out is to go back to the scientific path shown by our ancestors — Aryabhatta and Brahmagupta, Sushruta and Charaka, Ramanujan and C.V. Raman.

Here are three examples of Indian scientific achievements in ancient times.
1. The decimal system was perhaps the most revolutionary and greatest scientific achievement in the ancient world. The Europeans called the numbers in the decimal system Arabic numerals, but surprisingly the Arabs called them Hindu numerals. Were they Arabic or Hindu? The languages Urdu, Persian and Arabic are written from right to left, but if you ask any speaker of these languages to write a number, he will write it left to right. This shows the numbers were taken from a language that was written left to right. It is accepted now that these numbers came from India, and were copied by the Arabs.

The decimal system has revolutionary significance. Ancient Rome was a great civilisation, but its people were uncomfortable with numbers above 1000. They wrote their numbers in alphabets, I standing for 1, V for 5, X for 10, L for 50, C for 100, D for 500 and M for 1000. There was no alphabet expressing a number higher than 1000. If one would have asked an ancient Roman to write the number one million, he would have gone crazy: to write one million he would have to write the letter M, which stands for millennium (or one thousand), one thousand times. On the other hand, under our system, to express one million we have just to write the number one followed by six zeroes. We could thus express astronomically high numbers by adding zeroes. In the Roman numerals there is no zero. Zero was ancient India's invention.

2. Five thousand years ago in the Indus Valley civilisation was created the system of town planning, with covered drains and the sewage system.

3. Plastic surgery was invented in India in the 6th century B.C.; Westerners discovered it about 200 years ago.

I am not going into our other great scientific achievements (for details, see ‘Sanskrit as a Language of Science' at the website, www. kgfindia.com).

However, today we are far behind the Western countries in science; that is the real cause of our poverty and other social evils. We must spread science — not physics, chemistry and biology alone: it is the entire scientific outlook. We must spread rational and logical thinking among our masses and make them give up backwardness and superstition. The mindset steeped in casteism, communalism and superstition must change. Science is not the natural sciences alone, but also the social sciences. A worldwide recession is on. This can only be solved by knowledge of economic theory, not of natural sciences or engineering.

Democracy
The second principle is Democracy. When King Ajatashatru of Magadha was planning to attack the Vajjian democracy, he sent a messenger to the Buddha for advice. Instead of speaking to this messenger, the Buddha told one of his disciples: “Have you heard, Anand, that the Vajjians foregather often and frequent the public meetings of their clan? So long, Anand, as the Vajjians so foregather and so frequent the public meetings of their clan, so long they may be expected not to decline but to prosper.
Similarly, Avadan Shatak, a Buddhist Sanskrit text of the second century A.D., mentions that a group of merchants went from North India to the Deccan and were asked by the Deccan King, who was the king who ruled over North India. The merchants replied: Deva, kechit deshah ganadheena, kechit rajaadheena, iti, which means “Your Majesty, some regions are under democratic rule, while others are under kings.” So, democracy is nothing new to India.

The method of shastrarthas was developed in ancient India, which permitted free discussion in the presence of a large assembly. This resulted in growth in philosophy, law, grammar and so on, and also in science, including medicine, mathematics and astronomy.

Some people say democracy is not good for India. I disagree. The problem in India is not that there is too much democracy but too little. We need more democracy, not less, and that means educating the masses, raising their cultural level, and involving them actively in national reconstruction.

Democracy and science go hand in hand. Scientific growth requires certain supportive values, namely, the freedom to think, criticise, and dissent, tolerance, plurality, and free flow of information. These are the values of a democratic society.

Livelihood
The third principle is livelihood for the masses. Today, 80 per cent of Indians are poor, and there is massive unemployment, lack of healthcare, housing and good education. In the recent period, the rich have become richer, and the rich-poor divide has increased. Economic growth has benefited only a handful.

The French thinker, Rousseau, wrote: “It is obviously contrary to the law of nature for a handful of people to gorge themselves on superfluities while the starving multitudes lack the necessities of life.” (Discourse on the Origins of Inequality)
Using our creativity we must find ways to raise the standard of living of the masses. Ultimately, that is what matters. Let the system we adopt be called capitalism or socialism or communism, the real test is whether the standard of living of the masses is going up or not. Surely, a system in which a quarter million farmers have committed suicide in the last 15 years and vast masses live in poverty is unacceptable.

Before the Industrial Revolution, which began in Western Europe in the 18th century, there was feudalism everywhere. In the feudal system the methods of production were primitive and very little wealth was generated, and only a handful of people could be rich. In contrast, modern industry is powerful and big, and enough wealth can be generated to meet everybody's basic needs. Nobody needs to be poor. It is the state's duty to ensure that.

Unity of the people
India has great diversity, with a number of castes, languages, religions and ethnic groups, as it is broadly a country of immigrants (see the article, ‘Kalidas Ghalib Academy for Mutual Understanding,' and the video, ‘What is India,' at www. kgfindia.com). So the only policy that will work here is secularism, giving equal respect to all communities. This was the policy of Emperor Akbar, who was really the architect of modern India. This policy was continued by Jawaharlal Nehru and his colleagues who created our secular Constitution.

In 1947, religious passions were inflamed; Pakistan had declared itself an Islamic state. There must have been tremendous pressure on Nehru and his colleagues to declare India a Hindu state. It is not easy to keep a cool head when passions are inflamed, but our leaders said India would not be a Hindu state but a secular one. It is for this reason that there is more stability in India than in the neighbouring country.

Powerful vested interests are trying to destroy the unity and make us fight one another on the basis of religion, caste, region, language, and so on. It is the duty of all patriotic people to expose these designs and maintain the unity of the people; without that we cannot progress.

(Justice Markandey Katju is Chairman of the Press Council of India. This is an edited version of the address he delivered on January 11 at an international conference organised by the Council of Scientific and Industrial Research, on ‘Science Communication for Scientific Temper,' in New Delhi)

[vicky84]

It's not a side effect or a bad thing rather it's good for Pakistan that it's again heading towards military coupe. Democracy in Pakistan is led by jokers and a total failure. Kindly compare and contrast Musharraf's tenure with any of recent democracy or I would suggest ask any of your Paki frens if you've any, I think they will present you the real picture.

In conclusion, I would like to add - 'A martial law is far far better than fouled fake democracy!'

It is well know fact that how Pakistan army control the internal affairs of the country. Nexus between Army and ISI has been very supportive for the militants in Pakistan. Home grown terror has turned so ugly that it very hard to wipe it out. Musharraf policies and his interfere in Afganistan is now giving Pakistan a hard time. Pakistan was much better than before him. He made army more powerful. Now it is costing nation a lot. My Pakistani friends say so.

[vicky84]

I personally donot recommend militry rule not becaause they are equally corrupt today, but certainly they will be corrupted if they get a chance to rule and I donot want one the best defence services of India get spoiled/corrupted, otherwise also in democracy after five years we get chance to change the rulers but if militry takes over, God knows when they allow elections, thus we must find alternatives within the present system only
I hope the author of this thread understand these points. No army officer in this thread has recommended the martial law. God knows why the author is hell bent on justifying an ineffective solution which could cost country a lot!