Jat and Religion [Archive]

AnkurMalik

October 4th, 2010, 09:37 AM

Rakesh ji, Aapne ek dum sahi farmaya hai..Main Mula Jat ke baare mei hi baat kar raha hoon yahn per. Aaj bhi haryana ke kayi gaon mei Jat log "Peer" ki dhok marte hain. Baaki aap wiki ke upar bhi Jat ki history ko dekh sakte hain.

Ambala Division
Almost all of the Ambala Division Muslim Jats moved to Pakistan after partition in 1947. The Ambala Division's Muslim Jats were also referred as the Muley Jats.
[edit]Ambala District
The total Muslim Jat population of the district, according to the 1931 Census of India, was 10,956 (10%) out of a total population of 106,402. According to the 1911 census, the following were the principal Muslim Jat clans:
Baidwan (41)
Bains (78)
Bal (97)
Chahal (152)
Dhariwal (202)
Dhillon (97)
Dhindsa (17)
Gill (165)
Heer or Hayer (27)
Kang (14)
Maan (207)
Mangat (255)
Pawania (49)
Sarai (17)
Sidhu (19)
Sandhu (240)
Waraich (12)

Hissar District
The total Muslim Jat population of the district, according to the 1931 Census of India, was 5,311 (3%) out of a total population of 224,889. According to the 1911 census, the following were the principal Muslim Jat clans:
Bhainiwal (540)
Bola (35)
Chahal (77)
Chanhan (26)
Dhillon (11)
Dandiwal (34)
Dohan (83)
Gill (29)
Godara (264)
Lahar (10)
Mahla (22)
Maan (101)
Nain (96)
Pangal (79)
Punia (132)
Sehwag (Sihag) (24)
Sarai (65)
Sawaich (40)
Sheoran (43)

AnkurMalik

October 4th, 2010, 09:39 AM

acha to aapke dada pardada muslim they? iska matlab yeh naa hai ki sabke they. atleast mhare to naa they. kabhi raja surajmal ya raja nahar singh ka naam suna hai?? wei ajadi se to bahut pehle ke they.

Bhai main Mulla jat ke baare mei bat kar raha hoon yahan per.

VirJ

October 4th, 2010, 09:43 AM

Bhai main Mulla jat ke baare mei bat kar raha hoon yahan per.

Bhai Jat muslim the pehle. Hindu dharam to humne pakistan se alag hone ke baad apnaya hai.Azadi ke baad kuch Jat to pakistan chale gaye the aur jo Bharat mei reh gaye the unhone ya to araya samaj apnaya ya phirr hindu dharam mei tabdeel ho gaye

Do you know what you are talking about??

AnkurMalik

October 4th, 2010, 09:44 AM

Do you know what you are talking about??

Brother.. I was referring to Maula Jat who converted into Hindu.

narwaldeepak

October 4th, 2010, 10:32 AM

Jat is not religion-bound . We are above all religions
sikh hindu muslim.... jats are same.
Arya samaj was equally popular among HIndu as well as Sikh jats.
Thanks to this Bahman kaum ... jisne jaato ko Dharmik bana diya :D

upendersingh

October 4th, 2010, 01:07 PM

जिन्हें ऐसा लगता है कि जाटों का तो धर्म से कोई लेना-देना ही नहीं है, तो फिर उन्हें अपना धर्म त्याग देना चाहिए और इस दुनिया में बिना धर्म के जीना चाहिए. ये दुनिया ऐसे बे-धर्म वालों को अच्छा-खासा सबक सिखा देगी. पता नहीं कहां से ये अफवाह फ़ैल रही है कि जाटों का तो भारत से और हिंदू धर्म से कोई मतलब ही नहीं है. ऐसे लोग अहसानफरामोश हैं, जो मुसलमान, सिख या ईसाई बनने पर उस धर्म को भी गाली बकने लगेंगे. भारत की मिट्टी ने जाटों को सम्मान दिया, सुरक्षा दी, एक अच्छी संस्कृति दी, हिंदू धर्म जैसा महान धर्म दिया...धर्म अपनाना कुछ मजबूरी रही होगी, जो हमारे पूर्वजों ने धर्म अपनाया. जाटों में ऐसे लोगों की बहुलता है, जो बेहद धार्मिक हैं और धर्म के नाम पर किसी भी हद तक जा सकते हैं. हरियाणा में गौ-वध को लेकर कई बार मुसलमानों की हत्याएं की जा चुकी हैं और यदि हिंदू धर्म को गाली बकने वाले जाट ऐसा खुले आम कह दें तो फिर जाटों के ही हाथों उनकी शामत आना तय है. ये अच्छी बात है कि भारत और हिंदू धर्म को गाली बकने वाले जाटों की संख्या पूरी जाट कौम में ना के बराबर है. हर देश में, हर धर्म में, हर जाति में खुद को बुरा कहने वाले लोग हैं. जिन्हें अपने देश, धर्म और जाति से कुछ मिला होगा, वे इनकी प्रशंसा करेंगे और जिन्हें कुछ नहीं मिला होगा वे गाली बकेंगे. अभी यहीं पता चला था कि कोई मि. सिवाच और एक-दो और ऐसे ही जाट जाटों को खूब बुरा बताते हैं....बाद में पता चला कि ये सिवाच जाटों की वजह से किलसा हुआ है, क्योंकि जाटों ने उसके प्रेमविवाह में अड़चन डाली थी...तो ऐसे लोगों की परवाह नहीं करनी चाहिए...यहां जाटलैंड पर ऐसे अहसानफरामोश जाट शायद ही कोई हो, जैसी कुछेक बातें ऊपर हिंदू धर्म के विरुद्ध कही गई हैं, मैं समझता हूं कि वे बातें शरारत करने के लिए कही गई हैं...ये देखने के लिए कही गई हैं कि देखें ऐसी बातों से कौन-कौन परेशान होता है...

upendersingh

October 4th, 2010, 01:47 PM

हरियाणा, जो पहले पंजाब का ही एक हिस्सा था, उसका पंजाब से अलग होने का कारण ही यह था कि उसकी संस्कृति, उसका धर्म पश्चिमी पंजाब से अलग था. कुछ अहसानफरामोश सिख अगर भारत से अलग होकर खालिस्तान बनाने का सपना देख रहे थे तो उसका भी कारण काफी हद तक धर्म ही था. ऐसे में यह कहना कि जाटों का तो धर्म-मजहब से कुछ लेना-देना ही नहीं है, पूरी तरह से आधारहीन है.

vairesatendra

October 4th, 2010, 01:57 PM

Ravinderjeet Ji, religion is very personal to every individual. You should abstain yourself from making such comments about what Jats should do and should not do about their religion.

It seems that you have given a JUDGEMENT and written your judgement in bigger font size.

Ravinderjeet Ji, agar apko lagta h k mandir banvane ka prachalan, kanwar lane ka, vrat rakhne ka aur Mata ke darbar jane ka prachalan abhi se chala h (apke lifetime me hi) to itne sare prachin (old) mandir apke hisab se abhi bane honge.

PS: - Commenting with incomplete/insufficient knowledge is far more dangerous than possessing insufficient knowledge.

JATs ko Hinduism ka tyaag kar dena chahiye....

anilsangwan

October 4th, 2010, 02:15 PM

Very Confusing Thread with controversial topic......! Dont we have something positive to discuss rather than digging out such topics which will neither be useful to anyone nor will be concluded ever.

Ravinder bhai.... Tu Allbaadha aale taage mein e sahi s.... ude e laagya reh.....!!!! :rock :rock :rock :rock

JATs ko Hinduism ka tyaag kar dena chahiye....

jat to pahalam tein-a hindu koni ,aaj kaal nayaa-2 parchalan chaal padyaa ,mandir banaawan kaa,kaanwad layaawan kaa,barat raakhan kaa er mataa kaa darbaar er dhongi baba dhore jaawan kaa.

ravichaudhary

October 4th, 2010, 06:57 PM

As this is generally a sensitive subject, readers and participants are reminded to be a little reflective and accommodating of other people’s views before posting.
It is very possible to have an intellectual discussion, indeed a heated exchange, while still being respectful of others, and being polite.
Below is an extract from R S Joon’s book on the “history of the Jats” online in our site.
.Joon was a simple man, a military man, whose son’s rose to high positions in the Indian Army.
He, for his time, showed a remarkable insight in the ethos of the Jats, and their history. He is worth reading.
As a note to keep in mind- the English word ‘religion’ does not equate to the Hindi’ word Dharm’
Dharm is a ‘way of life,’ a way of ‘ righteousness’. The meaning gets lost in the English translation, for religion is more equivalent to the Semitic religions Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, who follow a book, a divine revelation.
Dharm is not only a philosophy but also how one should lead one’s daily life.
Jats followed a ‘dharm’ not a ‘religion’

Ravi Chaudhary

\http://www.jatland.com/home/History_of_the_Jats/Chapter_I

Jats are very religious minded people. From the earliest times, they have believed in One God and have worshipped Him. Their mode of worship is to remember God and express their gratitude to Him at any and all times. They do not, and have never believed in rituals and worship of idols or evil spirits. That is why no religious shrine of any importance exists in the Jat area. They do, however, believe in a form of ancestor worship. Certain days and customs are observed to propitiate the dead. Every village has a little shrine called Bhaiyan. It is a modest samadhi of the first man who died after that village came into being.
On certain days women visit this shrine, light a Ghee lamp, fold their hands and say, "0 grand father look after our menfolk and cattle". Men seek his blessings before proceeding to perform on important task like house building, marriage or battle. Married couples pay their homage to him the very next day after' the bride comes to her husband's home. This Bhaiyan worship is, however, carried out by individuals when and in whatever manner they choose. There is no fixed prayer, no rituals, no offering of money or foodstuff and no middlemanship of a priest.
Any religion, which preached oneness of God and condemned superstitions and idol worship easily appealed to and was adopted by Jats in large numbers at different times. When Vedic Hinduism gave place to Pauranic idol worship religion began to be used by priests as a means of livelihood; superstitious and awe inspiring beliefs tales and rituals, were introduced in religion to frighten people into giving offerings to idols and priests who became self appointed agents of God; non Brahmins were debarred from studying Sanskrit and religious books to make them, easily exploitable and ignorant. Jats became Buddhists and remained so long after other people in India went back to Brahmanism consequent to the decline of Buddhism. Buddhist influence is still prevalent amongst the Jats. They don't eat meat, do not wear the sacred thread, and do not stick much for untouchability as other Indians do and respect saints. When Buddhism almost disappeared from. India, Jats became devotees of saints. Dhanna Bhagat, Haridas, Garib Das and Nishchal Das, who were Jats, became prominent saints at this stage. The saints not being versed in Sanskrit could not however contend effectively with the Brahmins. Saint Nishchal Das was born in village Kirohli District Rohtak in a prominent family of Dahiya Gotra. He was a promising boy and as he grew up his interest in learning Sanskrit, developed and he proceeded to Kashi for Sanskrit learning. But according to the rules of Dharam Shashtra in those days, non-Brahmins were not allowed admission in the Sanskrit Vidayala. The young boy disguised himself as a Brahmin's son and got admission for learning Sanskrit there. He declared his name as NISCHAL DASS.
The Guru was kind enough to this boy due to his brilliancy, as he was the best student in his class. When NISCHAL DASS completed his studies, he went to his 'Guru' to say 'Good Bye' and for his blessings. At the time of his farewell the Guru asked him to marry his daughter. NISCHAL DASS showed his reluctance on the plea that he considered the Guru's daughter equivalent to his sister. The 'Guru' was not convinced. At last NISCHAL DASS had to reveal that he was a JAT by caste and not the son of Brahmin. The Guru remarked in anger, "The sin of educating a JAT lies on my head". He further cursed NISGHAL DASS; "May thou suffer incurable fever for ever".
NISCHAL DASS became a remarkable Saint and exposed the wrong dogmas of Puranic Mat. He wrote a new philosophy book 'BICHAR SAGAR' which is considered as a comprehensive book on Vedic literature. On this account Sant NISCHAL DASS is counted amongst fore-ranking philosophers.
A large number of Jats became Sadhus. According 1911 census, the number of Jat Sadhus in Punjab was 37000. Jats however, could never be coerced into accepting the superstitious teachings of the Brahmins, who being the only chroniclers, slanderously labeled the Jats in historical records as atheists, 'rakshash' and low born. These ill feelings between Brahmins and Jats have continued unabated ever since.
When Sikhism came into being, almost all the Jats of Punjab became Sikhs. Some Jats had already adopted Islam and those in European countries had became Christians; thus reducing the population of Hindu Jats, the only people to continue calling themselves Jats, to its present small total.
When the Sant movement declined, Swami Dayanand Saraswati founded Arya Samaj on Vedic lines. All the Jats of Haryana, Rajasthan, Brij and Uttar Pradesh readily adopted Arya Samaj as their religion. The reader will notice that Jats have from time to time adopted only those religions, which preached only one God and condemned idol worship and superstitious beliefs. A Jat however remains a Jat irrespective of his religion- In India, non Hindu Jats, although not calling themselves Jats any longer, have retained their Jat gotras. Most of the Christian Jats, except a few, have however, given up using their ancient gotra titles. This retention of the gotras has been the greatest single factor in retracing the. lost history of the Jats.

rakeshdhaka

October 4th, 2010, 07:23 PM

Bhai ya Ankur Malik choora tamne kati lhaseet-Paseet diya yo to bechara mulle jatoo ke pass beth gaya hoga oor unki kade baat sun li hogi oor aap sabne milke saari-ki-saari toope iski taraf taandi.
Jat to Jat hoose Jat jesa khule dil ka oor doosri kisi jati me na milta koe bhi.
Oor rahi Hindu Jat ki baat to bhaioo doosre hinhuo ne itne taang kiye the Rajasthan me ki unko padna bhi nahi diya jata tha sirf Rajput or brahman hi pad sakte the kabhi apne Jatland par hi "Swami Keshwanand" ki hi biography pad lo bera laag jaga kis tarah dukh pakar Rajathan me Jatoo ko unka haq dilvaya tha.Biograpjy padte-padte aakhon me paani aaja se.

singhvp

October 4th, 2010, 08:23 PM

Religion is a way of life or a set of values prescribed to govern any particular society in a particular phase of time in a right direction. The religious ethos should keep pace with changing material conditions and level of consciousness. It tends to become superstition and dogma after a certain phase of evolution where the religious bigots and selfish rulers forcefully keep the outdated values alive in order to perpetuate their hegemony over the gullible people of society. The church and temples have always been greatly influenced by the regimes that were. There was a time when people were made to believe by the tyrant rulers through their pampered and hired clergy that King is the incarnation of god and hat planets like Moon and Mars are gods. Those myths have since been busted by the increased level of consciousness and advancement of scientific and technical knowhow.

In the modern globalised world, the role of temple and mosque has been shrinking very rapidly. The nexus between the present day priest and the ruler (politicians in the present context) seem to be losing ground and their main survival plank – the forced religion is gradually vanishing. Religious issues are the lifeline for politicians of all hues – be it Hindu or Muslim. Therefore, they want to keep the issues like Ayodhaya alive. A common man has nothing to do with these issues.

Our focus should be on peace and progress. How to march ahead to keep pace with the developed world should be our agenda. India has so many burning issues like poverty, under-development, mal-nutrition, illiteracy, unemployment etc. The religious disputes will lead us nowhere but to a blind alley. In my assessment, Jats are the least superstitious people. It doesn’t mean to say that they are non-believers. They are in fact the true believers (in one god only) and know very little about hypocrisy. I think that is what Ravinderjeet wanted to convey in his post which is being misunderstood by some friends.

upendersingh

October 5th, 2010, 01:19 AM

@Ravi Chaudhary

Sir, I read your post and also the content, written by Ram Swarup Joon. I found nothing wrong in that content, but I found it incomplete. I have some questions unanswered. I am not asking anybody to answer these question, but I am just talking about these;

Lord Shiva, Hanuman are pure Hindu gods. If Jats believe in one god and don't believe in idols or staunch Hinduism, then why each Jat groom visits temple of Hindu gods after his ghudchadi? Our mode of marriage is also same as of the Hindus.
Almost all Hindu Jats believe that our creator is Lord Shiva and Hanuman is also our own god. Hindu Jats may give any sacrifice to save the prestige of Hanuman. If Jats don't believe in idols and staunch Hinduism, then why do they have so much respect for Hanuman or Lord Shiva?
Almost all Hindu Jats celebrate Diwali (a festivity related with Hindu god Lord Rama), Holi and Janmashtami (birthday of Lord Krishna). Are all such Jats fools?
Singh, Kumar etc. are pure Hindu surnames. Why do we Jats use these, if we are/were not Hindu?
A religion is established by or on the name of some divine soul. A Christian is who follows Jesus Christ. Christian. Islam was established by Mohammad. A Mohammadan is who follows Mohammad. Mohammadan. Budhists follow Buddha. Sikh religion was established by Guru Nanak. Our Hindu Jats' gods are Lord Shiva, Lord Rama, Lord Krishna, Hanuman and many others.
What the hell this mean that we are not Hindus? Who are we then? We are 100% Hindu. In fact, we are Hindu more than any other Hindus. If someone wants to give up Hinduism, then one shouldn't use anything related with the Hinduism. Names, surnames, mode of life, culture, festivities...all. Then if ever this world will ask-'hey, who are you?', what will be our answer? If we answer-'we are Jats, only Jats', then if this world asks us-'Who is your god, who is your establisher', then what will be our answer?

I think we Jats are Hindu basically, but some of the Jats converted to Islam and Sikhism etc. other religions, because they were forced or lured to do so. We Hindu Jats are better then such converted Jats as we didn't bow in odd and tough circumstances. Whole India will be with us if we are attacked by Pakistanis or any other country, but if we are only Jats, we will have to face the music alone. We are best caste in this world, but if this best 'caste' will be attacked by some 'country', then we will be finished out.

I know that no sensible person here is saying that we are not Hindus or we should give up Hinduism, but as a matter of fact if one member after the another will write against the Hinduism here, then it is highly objectionable and we will have to reply suitably.

VirJ

October 5th, 2010, 06:18 AM

jat to pahalam tein-a hindu koni

When the Sant movement declined, Swami Dayanand Saraswati founded Arya Samaj on Vedic lines. All the Jats of Haryana, Rajasthan, Brij and Uttar Pradesh readily adopted Arya Samaj as their religion. The reader will notice that Jats have from time to time adopted only those religions, which preached only one God and condemned idol worship and superstitious beliefs.

I don’t know how much of this is true or whether this is writer's assumption. Mostly all Arya Samaji Jats I met were from southern part of Haryana (mainly Rohtak and further). Arya Samaj did not has much influence in Punjab, Northern Haryana and I think same is true for the northern border area of Rajasthan. Though where ever I went I have seen that Jats ridicule bhamans(I am referring bhamans as only those who perform rituals not as a caste). Mostly Jats don’t believe in kundlis and other such rituals, in general. I have seen that almost all Jats worship "pitrs" (and also "Hanuman"), even in punjab. Ram and Shiva are also worshipped by Jats. Some Jatnis worship goddess like santoshi mata. Many jats, even today, don’t drink on Tuesday as it’s a day of Bajrang Bali. Also, I have seen Pitr pooja is an integral part of Jat society. Pitr are our forefathers. Many Jats worship/pay homage to pir as well(mostly in punjab and north haryana). Pirs were mostly sufi saints who were deeply influenced with Hinduism. Some Muslims in Greater Punjab area and Sindh and few other areas also worship pir. In Islam they don’t worship dead people and its certainly Hinduism influence. Thats why pirs were equally worshipped by hindus and muslims (now by sikhs too). However, it can be debated by people. Hinduism is a culture, a civilisation, a way of life which vary from region to region and is influenced by some other cultures and religions as well. Its not our word that’s y u wont find its reference in our books. It’s a word given to us by foreigners ( Iranians, I believe). Hinduism isn't bound to one person, one text book as many other religion are. Hinduism has 1000 deities, 100 ways of life. We all are very much Hindus. Sikhism, Budhism are also part of this Hinduism. Some people link Hinduism to Brahmans which, I think is not right. Brahmans did try to fool people by controlling the knowledge. Hinduism is this great civlisation and we are part of it.

It is a modest samadhi of the first man who died after that village came into being.

I would question this as I think Pitr isnt the one who was the first dead in the village but He is our ancestor whom we worship. It doesnt mean that if a family migrate to another village then their pitr change. He is the ancestor of the clan or aabai Khandan. I think the author probably wants to say first dead of aabai village.

This is not from any book, Its just based on my experience and interaction with people. Please correct me if I am wrong anywhere.

AnkurMalik

October 5th, 2010, 03:43 PM

जिन्हें ऐसा लगता है कि जाटों का तो धर्म से कोई लेना-देना ही नहीं है, तो फिर उन्हें अपना धर्म त्याग देना चाहिए और इस दुनिया में बिना धर्म के जीना चाहिए. ये दुनिया ऐसे बे-धर्म वालों को अच्छा-खासा सबक सिखा देगी. पता नहीं कहां से ये अफवाह फ़ैल रही है कि जाटों का तो भारत से और हिंदू धर्म से कोई मतलब ही नहीं है. ऐसे लोग अहसानफरामोश हैं, जो मुसलमान, सिख या ईसाई बनने पर उस धर्म को भी गाली बकने लगेंगे. भारत की मिट्टी ने जाटों को सम्मान दिया, सुरक्षा दी, एक अच्छी संस्कृति दी, हिंदू धर्म जैसा महान धर्म दिया...धर्म अपनाना कुछ मजबूरी रही होगी, जो हमारे पूर्वजों ने धर्म अपनाया. जाटों में ऐसे लोगों की बहुलता है, जो बेहद धार्मिक हैं और धर्म के नाम पर किसी भी हद तक जा सकते हैं. हरियाणा में गौ-वध को लेकर कई बार मुसलमानों की हत्याएं की जा चुकी हैं और यदि हिंदू धर्म को गाली बकने वाले जाट ऐसा खुले आम कह दें तो फिर जाटों के ही हाथों उनकी शामत आना तय है. ये अच्छी बात है कि भारत और हिंदू धर्म को गाली बकने वाले जाटों की संख्या पूरी जाट कौम में ना के बराबर है. हर देश में, हर धर्म में, हर जाति में खुद को बुरा कहने वाले लोग हैं. जिन्हें अपने देश, धर्म और जाति से कुछ मिला होगा, वे इनकी प्रशंसा करेंगे और जिन्हें कुछ नहीं मिला होगा वे गाली बकेंगे. अभी यहीं पता चला था कि कोई मि. सिवाच और एक-दो और ऐसे ही जाट जाटों को खूब बुरा बताते हैं....बाद में पता चला कि ये सिवाच जाटों की वजह से किलसा हुआ है, क्योंकि जाटों ने उसके प्रेमविवाह में अड़चन डाली थी...तो ऐसे लोगों की परवाह नहीं करनी चाहिए...यहां जाटलैंड पर ऐसे अहसानफरामोश जाट शायद ही कोई हो, जैसी कुछेक बातें ऊपर हिंदू धर्म के विरुद्ध कही गई हैं, मैं समझता हूं कि वे बातें शरारत करने के लिए कही गई हैं...ये देखने के लिए कही गई हैं कि देखें ऐसी बातों से कौन-कौन परेशान होता है...

Are Bhai aap kya baat keh rahe ho yahin per.Ye Bharamano ne jo ulta sidha sikha diya. Log usko manne lage. Koi logic nahi kuch nahi. Jitna nuksan in bharaman ne desh ko pahuchaya hai wo sab jaante hain. Inhone apni dukandari karni hoti thi aur aab bhi kar rahe hain. Haridwar mei baithe hain itne saare Sadhu baane aur sulfa pite hain logon se dharam ke upar paise loot kar. Ganga ke paani aur kharab kar dete hain. Vaise hi Ganga mei factories ka polluted material jata hai. Ye log vahan diwe daal dete hain. Aur pata nahi kya kya. Abhi piche main National Geographic Channel ke upar dekh raha tha. Rajesthan mei koi mandir hai. Vahan itne chuhe(Rats) hain jitne duniya mei kahin nahi honge. Log un chuho(Rats) ko dhoodh pilate hai. Plague jaisi khatarnaak bimari in Chuho se hi aati hai. Aur bhi pata nahi kya kya. Aur bhi pata nahi kya kya sikha diya logon ko. Koi kehta hai ki Tuesday ko drink mat karo aur baaki ke saare baache hue dino mei drink kar lo. Koi sense bani. Pata nahi kya kya andvishvaas daal diye logon mei.Meat mat khao. Pap lag jayega. Aur bhi pata nahi kya kya. Aisa hi pap lagna hota to ye saari duniya hi nahi mar jaati. Faaltu ki baatein faila rakhi hain.

malikdeepak1

October 5th, 2010, 03:56 PM

Aur bhi pata nahi kya kya sikha diya logon ko. Koi kehta hai ki Tuesday ko drink mat karo aur baaki ke saare baache hue dino mei drink kar lo. Koi sense bani. Pata nahi kya kya andvishvaas daal diye logon mei.Meat mat khao. Pap lag jayega. Aur bhi pata nahi kya kya. Aisa hi pap lagna hota to ye saari duniya hi nahi mar jaati. Faaltu ki baatein faila rakhi hain.

Its all about beliefs. There is no restriction in India on believing something. If you feel something is incorrect, then the democracy give you every right not to follow that. Aur ye beech me MEAT khaane wali baat kaha se aa gayi bhai? Some people like veg, some non-veg. Its about habits and taste. So please don't mix this with religious feelings.

And if you feel that these pandits are fooling people like us more than often, then our constitution gives your every right to file a case against them(reason tu decide kar liye bhai case ka), or you can go for a satyagrah that until these pandits don't stop befooling my "caste/religion mates" I will be on SATYAGRAH!!

PS : Not so frequently practiced though, par Aamaran anshan bhi ek option hai. "Gandhi" ji ke tuneer ka ek achook baan tha yu bhi!

AnkurMalik

October 5th, 2010, 04:08 PM

Its all about beliefs. There is no restriction in India on believing something. If you feel something is incorrect, then the democracy give you every right not to follow that. Aur ye beech me MEAT khaane wali baat kaha se aa gayi bhai? Some people like veg, some non-veg. Its about habits and taste. So please don't mix this with religious feelings.

And if you feel that these pandits are fooling people like us more than often, then our constitution gives your every right to file a case against them(reason tu decide kar liye bhai case ka), or you can go for a satyagrah that until these pandits don't stop befooling my "caste/religion mates" I will be on SATYAGRAH!!

PS : Not so frequently practiced though, par Aamaran anshan bhi ek option hai. "Gandhi" ji ke tuneer ka ek achook baan tha yu bhi!

Are bhai, Main to vo bata raha hoon jo mughe lagta hai. Main kisi ko force thodi na kar raha hoon yahan per. Follow karne vaale kar rahe hain aur nahi karne vaale nahi bhi kar rahe. Aur yadi main kisi ko force karta bhi hoon to kaun maane vaala hai aur koi kyon maane. Sabki apni iccha hai bhai aur apni vichar dhara hai. Ye to vicharo ka adan pradan hai. Jaise aap apne de rahe ho vaise hi main apne de raha hoon.

malikdeepak1

October 5th, 2010, 04:52 PM

Are bhai, Main to vo bata raha hoon jo mughe lagta hai. Main kisi ko force thodi na kar raha hoon yahan per. Follow karne vaale kar rahe hain aur nahi karne vaale nahi bhi kar rahe. Aur yadi main kisi ko force karta bhi hoon to kaun maane vaala hai aur koi kyon maane. Sabki apni iccha hai bhai aur apni vichar dhara hai. Ye to vicharo ka adan pradan hai. Jaise aap apne de rahe ho vaise hi main apne de raha hoon.

Yahi baat maine bhi kahi hai bhai. I think you missed the little sarcasm in my post!

upendersingh

October 5th, 2010, 05:34 PM

Are Bhai aap kya baat keh rahe ho yahin per.Ye Bharamano ne jo ulta sidha sikha diya. Log usko manne lage. Koi logic nahi kuch nahi. Jitna nuksan in bharaman ne desh ko pahuchaya hai wo sab jaante hain. Inhone apni dukandari karni hoti thi aur aab bhi kar rahe hain. Haridwar mei baithe hain itne saare Sadhu baane aur sulfa pite hain logon se dharam ke upar paise loot kar. Ganga ke paani aur kharab kar dete hain. Vaise hi Ganga mei factories ka polluted material jata hai. Ye log vahan diwe daal dete hain. Aur pata nahi kya kya. Abhi piche main National Geographic Channel ke upar dekh raha tha. Rajesthan mei koi mandir hai. Vahan itne chuhe(Rats) hain jitne duniya mei kahin nahi honge. Log un chuho(Rats) ko dhoodh pilate hai. Plague jaisi khatarnaak bimari in Chuho se hi aati hai. Aur bhi pata nahi kya kya. Aur bhi pata nahi kya kya sikha diya logon ko. Koi kehta hai ki Tuesday ko drink mat karo aur baaki ke saare baache hue dino mei drink kar lo. Koi sense bani. Pata nahi kya kya andvishvaas daal diye logon mei.Meat mat khao. Pap lag jayega. Aur bhi pata nahi kya kya. Aisa hi pap lagna hota to ye saari duniya hi nahi mar jaati. Faaltu ki baatein faila rakhi hain.

ऐसे 'ब्राह्मण' सारी दुनिया में हैं. ये गलती आपकी नहीं है, बल्कि आजकल की तथाकथित आधुनिक शिक्षा व्यवस्था की है, जो केवल यह सिखा रही है कि जो भी है बस विज्ञान है. ये जितनी भी बातें आपने यहां कही हैं, इन सबको आप खुद अपने मुंह से गलत कह दोगे. फिलहाल तो मेरे पास टाइम नहीं है. फुर्सत मिलेगी और मेरा मन होगा तो आपकी इन बातों पर चर्चा करूंगा. अभी आप बस ये नीचे खबर देखो और अपने आपसे पूछो कि आपके सबसे पसंदीदा देशों में से एक अमेरिका में भी ऐसे 'ब्राह्मण' क्यों हैं, जो मस्जिद-चर्च, कुरान जलाने जैसी तुच्छ बातें कर रहे हैं?

.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..
The Mosque at Ground Zero: "Don't Build It"
The Center for Inquiry in Amherst NY has come out against the mosque. I've been pretty much avoiding this topic (not for any particularly good reason) other than to note the gagging teabaggers beating up on non-pink people that they assume are Kaaaaiiiiliiii terrorists or something.
But DuWayne Brayton posted a link, with commentary, to the CFI's statement on the mosque, and, I find myself respectfully disagreeing with DuWayne and going in with the CFI on this one.
Religion did this. The terrorist attack was a religious event. I don't want a mosque or a temple or a church or community center linked to a religion built in the vicinity of the destroyed World Trade Center on account of the attack any more than I want a religious structure built next to the Federal Office Building in Oklahoma City on account of that religious attack by Christian White Supremacist McVay.
In fact, I suggest in a comment on DuWayne's post what should really happen in New York City.
US Muslim groups unite, see mosque near ground zero as test of right

New York – American Muslim leaders are starting to coalesce around the concept of building an Islamic Centerand mosque close to ground zero. Their reason for coming together: The issue has now become a test of their constitutional right to build houses of worship anywhere in the nation.
On Monday, at a press conference outside of , the proposed site of the mosque and community center, national and local Islamic religious leaders said they stood in support of the building of the mosque in this place.
Man ignites Koran near Ground Zero

A hate-filled fanatic ripped pages out of a Koran and lit them aflame Saturday amid the chaos outside the planned community center and mosque near Ground Zero.
"If they can burn American flags, I can burn the Koran," the unidentified zealot shouted. "[Americans] should never be afraid to give their opinion."
Witnesses said it was a ghastly display of fervor - apparently inspired by the Florida pastor who vowed to torch the holy books earlier in the week - overshadowing what should have been a somber day.
"Burning Korans is like setting up a recruitment to Al Qaeda - it does nothing for the cause and only brings problems," said Lance Corey, 61, a retired history teacher from the Bronx who opposes Park51.
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..

AnkurMalik

October 5th, 2010, 05:56 PM

ऐसे 'ब्राह्मण' सारी दुनिया में हैं. ये गलती आपकी नहीं है, बल्कि आजकल की तथाकथित आधुनिक शिक्षा व्यवस्था की है, जो केवल यह सिखा रही है कि जो भी है बस विज्ञान है. ये जितनी भी बातें आपने यहां कही हैं, इन सबको आप खुद अपने मुंह से गलत कह दोगे. फिलहाल तो मेरे पास टाइम नहीं है. फुर्सत मिलेगी और मेरा मन होगा तो आपकी इन बातों पर चर्चा करूंगा. अभी आप बस ये नीचे खबर देखो और अपने आपसे पूछो कि आपके सबसे पसंदीदा देशों में से एक अमेरिका में भी ऐसे 'ब्राह्मण' क्यों हैं, जो मस्जिद-चर्च, कुरान जलाने जैसी तुच्छ बातें कर रहे हैं?

.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..
The Mosque at Ground Zero: "Don't Build It"
The Center for Inquiry in Amherst NY has come out against the mosque. I've been pretty much avoiding this topic (not for any particularly good reason) other than to note the gagging teabaggers beating up on non-pink people that they assume are Kaaaaiiiiliiii terrorists or something.
But DuWayne Brayton posted a link, with commentary, to the CFI's statement on the mosque, and, I find myself respectfully disagreeing with DuWayne and going in with the CFI on this one.
Religion did this. The terrorist attack was a religious event. I don't want a mosque or a temple or a church or community center linked to a religion built in the vicinity of the destroyed World Trade Center on account of the attack any more than I want a religious structure built next to the Federal Office Building in Oklahoma City on account of that religious attack by Christian White Supremacist McVay.
In fact, I suggest in a comment on DuWayne's post what should really happen in New York City.
US Muslim groups unite, see mosque near ground zero as test of right

New York – American Muslim leaders are starting to coalesce around the concept of building an Islamic Centerand mosque close to ground zero. Their reason for coming together: The issue has now become a test of their constitutional right to build houses of worship anywhere in the nation.
On Monday, at a press conference outside of , the proposed site of the mosque and community center, national and local Islamic religious leaders said they stood in support of the building of the mosque in this place.
Man ignites Koran near Ground Zero

A hate-filled fanatic ripped pages out of a Koran and lit them aflame Saturday amid the chaos outside the planned community center and mosque near Ground Zero.
"If they can burn American flags, I can burn the Koran," the unidentified zealot shouted. "[Americans] should never be afraid to give their opinion."
Witnesses said it was a ghastly display of fervor - apparently inspired by the Florida pastor who vowed to torch the holy books earlier in the week - overshadowing what should have been a somber day.
"Burning Korans is like setting up a recruitment to Al Qaeda - it does nothing for the cause and only brings problems," said Lance Corey, 61, a retired history teacher from the Bronx who opposes Park51.
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..

Obama ne baad mei ye keh diya tha ki Jaab Hindu Mandir ho sakta hai to Mosque kyon nahi. Baaki main aapke baat se sehmat hoon ki aise ब्राह्मण duniya mei har jagah hain. Mera kehne ka matlab sirf ye hai ki aap kya nikaalte ho in baaton mei vishvaas karke. Muslim bevkoofon ki tarah ladaii karte rehte hain apas mei. Shia, Sunni ek doosre ko maarne par tule hue hain. Iraq mei jo sab ho raha hai wo kaafi kuch Muslimon ki aapsi ladayi se bhi ho raha hai. Wo bhi dharam ke upar. Mohamaad ke upar khamkha ki ladii ho rahi hai. Jaghad rahe hain apas mein. Maar rahe hain ek doosre ko. Kya outcome hai in baaton ko. Mohamad koi roti thodi na khila dega. Ya Shiites ya Sunni kuch roti khila dega. Vaise hi bharat mei itni gareebi hai. Logon befaltu mei Ayodya, Ram Mandir par ladd rahe hain. Jahan desh ke logon ko rozgaar chahiye, gariboon ko roti chahiye vahan to kuch ho nahi raha. Apas mei jhagad kar desh ko aur bhi jayda nuksaan pahucha rahe hain. Yadi aap mughse poochte ho ki dharam kya hai. Main "Karam" ko dharam maanta hoon. Apna kaam karo. Ek doosre ki help karo bina kisi majhab vagra ko dhayan mei rakhte hue. Usse bada koi dharam nahi hai.

vairesatendra

October 5th, 2010, 05:58 PM

I agree with Upender Bhai. He has got some valid points in his kitty.

This is a very sensitive issue and we must post after deep pondering not like Ankur Malik as it will create fuss only.

I request Ankur Malik if he he has some better logic to confront Upender's point. (maintaing the decorum)

AnkurMalik

October 5th, 2010, 05:59 PM

vairesatendra

October 5th, 2010, 06:08 PM

vairesatendra

October 5th, 2010, 06:16 PM

Please read my reply. Thanks. :)

Bhai it is Hinduism, jo hume 'Karam' karne ki seekh deta h...without any caste, color and creed. Jis Hinduism ki bat aap kar rahe ho, wo misrepresented Hinduism h.

Anyways, I dont want to change your perception because this is not my 'KARAM'. Also I would request all of you to save the resources for something positive.

Ravinderjeet bhai pata nahi is thread me aag laga ke kaha gayab ho gaya. Lagta h Hinduism ko tyagne gaya h bhai... lolzzzz

AnkurMalik

October 5th, 2010, 06:19 PM

Ayodhya is again very sensitive. Please keep it aside.

Jo yaha p Jat h unme se kitne apne aap ko Hindu nahi kehte?

Agar wo apne aap ko Hindu nahi mante to kya wo Hinduism k rituals (all the customs and rituals) ko follow nahi karte?

Dear Satendera,

I am not here to preach. Nor i am showering my knowledge over people to follow what i preach. All I am saying is, What if I accept a Hindu or Muslim or Christian religion. Will that feed those people who are striving for food and shelter. The energy i waste over religion. Should not that energy be used somewhere else more constructive. Following a religion won't help those deprived people live in slums. What will help is you, me, and other members to come forward and discuss how we can help those poor people who seriously need our help. How much we can donate to our society. What I can contribute to the society. Be it finance or some other help. Lets start a thread on this portal and then do some positive instead of writing here 1000 of lines which conclude nothing.

ravichaudhary

October 5th, 2010, 06:35 PM

[B]Are Bhai aap kya baat keh rahe ho yahin per.Ye Bharamano ne jo ulta sidha sikha diya. Log usko manne lage. Koi logic nahi kuch nahi. Jitna nuksan in bharaman ne desh ko pahuchaya hai wo sab jaante hain. Inhone apni dukandari karni hoti thi aur aab bhi kar rahe hain. Haridwar mei baithe hain itne saare Sadhu baane aur sulfa pite hain logon se dharam ke upar paise loot kar. Ganga ke paani aur kharab kar dete hain. Vaise hi Ganga mei factories ka polluted material jata hai. Ye log vahan diwe daal dete hain. Aur pata nahi kya kya. Abhi piche main National Geographic Channel ke upar dekh raha tha. Rajesthan mei koi mandir hai. Vahan itne chuhe(Rats) hain jitne duniya mei kahin nahi honge. Log un chuho(Rats) ko dhoodh pilate hai. Plague jaisi khatarnaak bimari in Chuho se hi aati hai. Aur bhi pata nahi kya kya. Aur bhi pata nahi kya kya sikha diya logon ko. Koi kehta hai ki Tuesday ko drink mat karo aur baaki ke saare baache hue dino mei drink kar lo. Koi sense bani. Pata nahi kya kya andvishvaas daal diye logon mei.Meat mat khao. Pap lag jayega. Aur bhi pata nahi kya kya. Aisa hi pap lagna hota to ye saari duniya hi nahi mar jaati. Faaltu ki baatein faila rakhi hain..

I am going to caution posters, to try and stay with the topic.

If you bring in extraneous material, please point out the relevance. If not do not post.

Ankur,

Your post is somewhat wide ranging and not quite focused.

Anti- Brahmanism , is quite common, but it is not a panacea for all evils, and it is not justified to lay everything at some 'Brahmin’s' door. The rest of us have to take some responsibility too.

For all their faults, the Brahmin’s( or those who came to be called Brahmins) kept alive the Vedic ( later Hindu ) philosophy.

Those who do that, use knowledge, gyan, are Brahmins. Those who do not are not.

Yes there was untouchability, restrictions on who could read the Vedas etc etc. There is no such restriction today- anyone can read the Veda.. Yet how many people do you know who do so?

HINDUISM.

The Dharm, is multifaceted. It has no set structures cast in stone. It changes, it evolves.

Yes, there is a temple in Rajasthan dedicated to the Chua/rat. Rats there, are not killed, they are revered. They symbolized some thing in Hinduism. . “In Hindu mythology, rat holds an important significance. It enjoys the stature of being the vehicle of Hindu God of wisdom Lord 'Ganesha' and is always found next to His statue & images”.

The rats are well fed, clean, healthy. They are not harming anyone.

Why should this become a source of plague?

People have different belief systems- some do not eat meat, some do not eat it on Tuesday. These are social customs, which become ritualized.

The vedic/hindu philosophy, has taken to concept of no meat or limited meat from the Ayurveda and yoga fields. Those fields are pre Hindu. In them it is considered that meat is hard to digest, and is a food that is not good for the body and the brain. No argument there. Jats have been fierce vegetarians.

This restriction was a simple way of getting simple people to eat less meat.

The pros and cons of meat eating can be debated at length, and if you or others wish to do so, please start a separate thread.

This thread is about Jats and religion.

Posters, please stay with that.

Ravi Chaudhary

AnkurMalik

October 5th, 2010, 06:46 PM

The rats are well fed, clean, healthy. They are not harming anyone.

Why should this become a source of plague?

People have different belief systems- some do not eat meat, some do not eat it on Tuesday. These are social customs, which become ritualized.

You gotta be kidding me. Are you serious? Those Rats are not harming and its very hygienic to have those in our society. Going by that logic one should keep his house full with Rats. Isn't it. As far as what i have written in some others posts. There might be something which is not relevant to the topic but i think 80 percent of that still belongs to the topic. As all people express views, I am also among those people to put my views. Anyways I appreciate your interfere in between discussion which could have derailed the thread because of my views. You can go ahead and delete those which are irrelevant. Thanks.

ravichaudhary

October 5th, 2010, 06:47 PM

Dear Satendera,

I am not here to preach. Nor i am showering my knowledge over people to follow what i preach. All I am saying is, What if I accept a Hindu or Muslim or Christian religion. Will that feed those people who are striving for food and shelter. The energy i waste over religion. Should not that energy be used somewhere else more constructive. Following a religion won't help those deprived people live in slums. What will help is you, me, and other members to come forward and discuss how we can help those poor people who seriously need our help. How much we can donate to our society. What I can contribute to the society. Be it finance or some other help. Lets start a thread on this portal and then do some positive instead of writing here 1000 of lines which conclude nothing.

Ankur

People wish to discuss religion, they are welcome to do so. It is not for you or me to stop them.

It is not right to make a blanket statement that religion does not help in poverty( slums or otherwise).

It gives people something to hang on to, while thee confront their daily existence- lack of material things, money etc. they still can follow and teach their children values, ' sanskar'. The vedic/HIndu philosophy is good at that.

They can learn to be pure of mind, to lead their lives with some morals, to acquire knowledge and wisdom. NOthing is stopping well wishers from helping in solving the problems of poverty , providing education etc. That is ongoing , sometimes effective sometimes not.

Here posters are only requested to maintain decorum and stay with the topic- RELIGION and JATS.

What is the relevance of your post to Jats?

Ravi Chaudhary

singhvp

October 5th, 2010, 06:49 PM

I second Ankur's thoughts to a great extent. The money which is wasted on construction of religious shrines can be better utilized for more fruitful activities viz. building of schools, improvement of educational standards thereby making quality education within the reach of common man. For the sake of argument, even if it is accepted that there is some supernatural power that governs the whole universe, what is the utility of offering prayers, performing rituals in religious shrines. Is it necessary to show-case our religiosity. Isn't it hypocrisy that we hate mankind and try to please its creator. Who is the final authority to prescribe the ways of worshiping God. What are the proper rituals and why these rituals differ from place to place. Why can not we pay our obeisance to that supernatural power(God) in our heart of hearts while sitting on a cot in our bed-room, or under the shade of a tree. Most of the priests are thugs and hypocrites and people follow them out of ignorance. Jats usually do not fall prey to these priests.

ravichaudhary

October 5th, 2010, 06:57 PM

You gotta be kidding me. Are you serious? Those Rats are not harming and its very hygienic to have those in our society. Going by that logic one should keep his house full with Rats. Isn't it. As far as what i have written in some others posts. There might be something which is not relevant to the topic but i think 80 percent of that still belongs to the topic. As all people express views, I am also among those people to put my views. Anyways I appreciate your interfere in between discussion which could have derailed the thread because of my views. You can go ahead and delete those which are irrelevant. Thanks.

Actually I am not 'kidding you'

It is her/his personal priviledge. If they are not harming anyone,including the rat, what is the harm?

Just to emphasize the point - if someone wishes to worship a rat, why should it bother you, me, or anyone else?

Please read up on the significance of a rat in Hinduism.

I would like to think, that jats are very tolerant by nature. The rat temple is in a jat area. The jats allow it, probably also visit it and pay their respects.

Ravi Chaudhary

P.S. I prefer you, and others, self moderate.

ravichaudhary

October 5th, 2010, 10:44 PM

@Ravi Chaudhary

Sir, I read your post and also the content, written by Ram Swarup Joon. I found nothing wrong in that content, but I found it incomplete. I have some questions unanswered. I am not asking anybody to answer these question, but I am just talking about these;.

RE post # 20

Upendraji

I would suggest you step back for a moment.

It is a matter of understanding, and getting an idea of how the ancient beliefs have evolved into current Hinduism.

Yes Shiva is a current Hindu Deity. Shiva is also a vey special deity to Jats. There are broadly two streams of Hinduism, Shaivism and Vaishnavism. There are other streams too; some will give the Mata (Devi) prominence. Others will focus on Parmathma. Arya Samaj will focus on the last one.

Overall Hinduism today is a vast accommodating philosophical system.

I quoted Ram Swaroop Joon, as he put his mind to and documented his thinking in his history book. His perspective was of 80- 100 years ago.

He is not, I think, all that far off the mark.

This is not to say that some Jats do not follow the Vaishnav stream, but the majority would see as their deity of choice and many if not the majority would follow the Arya Samaj principles.

There are certain religious customs that are at the core of the Jats beliefs

1) Ancestor worship. A regard for the ancestors, ‘pitrs’. The Jats made small statues which they put in the orchard graves near theory villages. These were called Devta abodes. Regular ceremonies were carried out here. This still continues. At the occasions of marriage, birth, death etc.

2) There was a general lack of ‘mandirs’/temples. At most a small temple existed for Shivaji.

3) The Vaishnav stream, deified Ramchandraji and Krishnaji. Were these historical figures? I am increasingly inclined to think they were.

4) Where did Hanumanji and other deities evolve, and how did the Jat psyche react to, absorb them.

These are some common tenets with current Hindus.

There were and are differences too.

1) The Jats never accepted the Hindu hierarchical Varna (caste) system of Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya, and Shudra...

2) The Jat custom of widow re marriage was the anti thesis of Hindu thought.

3) The Jats respected people of learning, and called them Brahmin. They did not accept that the Brahmin caste had any divine right.

Chotu Ram wrote his religion as Vedic not Hindu. Vedic is closer to traditional Jat belief than Hinduism.

Yes, many of us, if asked, would say ‘we are Hindus’. We would add some caveats.
These are some of my thoughts, others may add

Ravi Chaudhary
..

vairesatendra

October 5th, 2010, 11:14 PM

Bro, even if you try to preach, you cant do that as you dont believe in religion.

Bhai, followers of Hinduism try to feed those people who are striving for food and shelter. They organize Bhandara and so on. Probably you dont know about it. But someone will surely help you out to identify that. And they do so without focusing on the Caste and religion of the people. OK. And this is itself a CONSTRUCTIVE work. (may be not for you)

But if you want that it should eradicate poverty and everyone to become affluent, it wont be possible.

You being not a follower of Hinduism, how much you have donated to the society so far? Be if finance or some other help. If you have done something, followers of Hinduism also do that. And I guess better than you.

You mentioned that you,me and others to come forward and try to help the needy people. That is what followers of Hinduism doing. You are only at the point of inception, but people are doing that. The money which they donate can be considered as a common collection by a group of religious people. And this common collection helps the poor. Then how can you say that following a religion is wastage of energy?

One more thing bro, Rats and other animals are also part of nature. Some of the Rats may spread plague, but most of them are also part of nature's cycle. If there are no rats (or any other animal) it will disrupt the Nature Cycle. Likewise, we may have Jats who may be a danger to the civil society, but does that mean that other JATS (including you and me) dont have right to live and should be sentenced to death?

Please think over it bro.

Dear Satendera,

I am not here to preach. Nor i am showering my knowledge over people to follow what i preach. All I am saying is, What if I accept a Hindu or Muslim or Christian religion. Will that feed those people who are striving for food and shelter. The energy i waste over religion. Should not that energy be used somewhere else more constructive. Following a religion won't help those deprived people live in slums. What will help is you, me, and other members to come forward and discuss how we can help those poor people who seriously need our help. How much we can donate to our society. What I can contribute to the society. Be it finance or some other help. Lets start a thread on this portal and then do some positive instead of writing here 1000 of lines which conclude nothing.

vijay123

October 6th, 2010, 07:14 AM

VP Singhji, why blame religious shrines or God for poverty or illiteracy? How one wants to pray is up to that person only. You would have heard this line so many times - ab sab kuch upar wale ke haath mei hai. When everything fails, people look for hope in God. Whether He exists or not is a different matter but He certainly can provide hope and willpower to fight on. Logon ke bhagwan ko yaad karne ke tareeke alag alag ho sakate hai par sabka aim ek hi hota hai.

I second Ankur's thoughts to a great extent. The money which is wasted on construction of religious shrines can be better utilized for more fruitful activities viz. building of schools, improvement of educational standards thereby making quality education within the reach of common man. For the sake of argument, even if it is accepted that there is some supernatural power that governs the whole universe, what is the utility of offering prayers, performing rituals in religious shrines. Is it necessary to show-case our religiosity. Isn't it hypocrisy that we hate mankind and try to please its creator. Who is the final authority to prescribe the ways of worshiping God. What are the proper rituals and why these rituals differ from place to place. Why can not we pay our obeisance to that supernatural power(God) in our heart of hearts while sitting on a cot in our bed-room, or under the shade of a tree. Most of the priests are thugs and hypocrites and people follow them out of ignorance. Jats usually do not fall prey to these priests.

singhvp

October 6th, 2010, 08:21 AM

VP Singhji, why blame religious shrines or God for poverty or illiteracy? How one wants to pray is up to that person only. You would have heard this line so many times - ab sab kuch upar wale ke haath mei hai. When everything fails, people look for hope in God. Whether He exists or not is a different matter but He certainly can provide hope and willpower to fight on. Logon ke bhagwan ko yaad karne ke tareeke alag alag ho sakate hai par sabka aim ek hi hota hai.

Vijay ji, I am too small a creature to question existence of any supernatural power or God. Well-known scientist Stephen Hawkin's recent controversial statement notwithstanding, I have no intention to question existence of any divine power or God. My simple argument was about showing off our religiosity and ways of worship. It is a matter of individual faith and one should have if it gives solace and succour. But, is it necessary to have a grand edifice for offering prayer. Respect and obeisance comes from heart and not from the temple or mosque. Therefore, purity of heart is more important than the place of worship. I do not think that God wants us to build magnificent temples and mosques for offering prayer to Him.

Samarkadian

October 6th, 2010, 11:42 AM

RE post # 20

Upendraji

I would suggest you step back for a moment.

It is a matter of understanding, and getting an idea of how the ancient beliefs have evolved into current Hinduism.

Yes Shiva is a current Hindu Deity. Shiva is also a vey special deity to Jats. There are broadly two streams of Hinduism, Shaivism and Vaishnavism. There are other streams too; some will give the Mata (Devi) prominence. Others will focus on Parmathma. Arya Samaj will focus on the last one.

Overall Hinduism today is a vast accommodating philosophical system.

I quoted Ram Swaroop Joon, as he put his mind to and documented his thinking in his history book. His perspective was of 80- 100 years ago.

He is not, I think, all that far off the mark.

This is not to say that some Jats do not follow the Vaishnav stream, but the majority would see as their deity of choice and many if not the majority would follow the Arya Samaj principles.

There are certain religious customs that are at the core of the Jats beliefs

1) Ancestor worship. A regard for the ancestors, ‘pitrs’. The Jats made small statues which they put in the orchard graves near theory villages. These were called Devta abodes. Regular ceremonies were carried out here. This still continues. At the occasions of marriage, birth, death etc.

2) There was a general lack of ‘mandirs’/temples. At most a small temple existed for Shivaji.

3) The Vaishnav stream, deified Ramchandraji and Krishnaji. Were these historical figures? I am increasingly inclined to think they were.

4) Where did Hanumanji and other deities evolve, and how did the Jat psyche react to, absorb them.

These are some common tenets with current Hindus.

There were and are differences too.

1) The Jats never accepted the Hindu hierarchical Varna (caste) system of Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya, and Shudra...

2) The Jat custom of widow re marriage was the anti thesis of Hindu thought.

3) The Jats respected people of learning, and called them Brahmin. They did not accept that the Brahmin caste had any divine right.

Chotu Ram wrote his religion as Vedic not Hindu. Vedic is closer to traditional Jat belief than Hinduism.

Yes, many of us, if asked, would say ‘we are Hindus’. We would add some caveats.
These are some of my thoughts, others may add

Ravi Chaudhary
..

A nice explaination.

Another point to keep in mind while discussing mythology is that - Hindu/Hinduism as a word and definition is not mythological. It had been coined by invaders from arabic origion who couldn't speak S of Sindhu which means people living in and around Sindhu river. Hindu , you woudn't find in scriptures.

upendersingh

October 6th, 2010, 01:27 PM

वी.पी. सिंह जी, ये जाति-धर्म, मंदिर-मस्जिद का मसला तब तक समाप्त नहीं होगा, जब तक इंसान में एक-दूसरे से श्रेष्ठ होने की होड़ समाप्त नहीं होगी और ऐसा कभी नहीं होगा.

Fateh

October 29th, 2010, 05:18 PM

As I think, Religion is nothing but a way of life, there is no connection between The God & The Religion except the way one remember/ extend thanks/ pray to the God. Religion connects an individual with other people who follow the similar way of life, where as spiritualty is a matter of an individual. To find the God/the highest power, one has to understand self where as the religion is a basically social in nature. True God/Bhagwan is( Bhumy+Gagan+Wayu+Agni+Neer). Shiva, Rama, Krishan, Vishanu etc were good people who showed certain path/ way to the people, They were basically good leaders not Gods. Waite very soon many of present day leaders will certainly occupy place of worship in temples, in gujarat Gandhi temple is under construction, Mayawati has taken lead, Lalu Chalisa is already published, Indira will replace Durga etc. It being a very long discussion, we leave it here and consider other issue please.

A suggestion please:- It is true that jats way of life & thinking is certainly different than followers of Brahamanical Sanatan Dharam. Our way of life, thinking, liking, practices, traditions etc are like or more close to Vedas that is why we adopted Ariya samaj easily. Therefore, why dont we wear the religious cloth of Vedic Dharam, from inside we are already vedic. We should worship Vedas & our elders including Shiva, Ram, Krishana, family elders etc. We should train our people to become religious teachers who should do further research on vedas & educate us. Once the idea is accepted by our people other matters can be shortedout.Lateron. Your valuable views please. Regards

vdhillon

November 25th, 2010, 10:01 PM

Bhai Jat muslim the pehle. Hindu dharam to humne pakistan se alag hone ke baad apnaya hai.Azadi ke baad kuch Jat to pakistan chale gaye the aur jo Bharat mei reh gaye the unhone ya to araya samaj apnaya ya phirr hindu dharam mei tabdeel ho gaye

What is this? Even the choice of words you use (e.g. Tabdeel) is suspect.

vdhillon

November 25th, 2010, 10:32 PM

IMO, Jats heritage has been republican, sun worshippers, more vedic, Hindu and Buddhist and recently Sikh. Those who could nto stand up to muslim invaders became mulla jat and those who bravely fought still continues to be Hindus and Sikhs.

I am yet to come across a peer-reviewed empirical study that either proves or disproves the existence of God. hence, I am opened minded either way and will let the data presented influence my decision making. Though religion is an areas I have not actively pursed though I have been significantly influenced exposed to it, predominantly Hinduism and Arya Samaj. Those interested in more intellectual exploration of this topic and not dogmatic about their belief, I suggest the following article by noted Bollywood story writer and lyricist Javed Akhtar, scroll down to this link and click on INDIA TODAY ENCLAVE http://www.javedakhtar.com/inner/interview.html

I also saw, a note in the earlier posts about diminishing influence of political and religious nexus. It may be true, except in case of Islam which the notable Muslim ladies allege to be the 'Theo-Politico Doctrine of Hatred'

Ayaan Hirasi Ali - daughter of Ethopian muslim ex-Deputy PM, Now a Minister in Swedish government
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0txwUT8Csh4

Dr Wafa Sultan - Seriyan Muslim
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uM4ODjVMc2s

Noonie Darwesh - Egyptian Muslim Lady whose father led terror attacks against Jews including man and women
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7zGcYaNKTI&feature=related

Fateh

November 29th, 2010, 05:07 AM

The biggest enemy of an individual is ignorance @ biggest enemy of society , allover the world, is contractor of religion. Anyway on jat religion

I REQUESTED FOR YOUR OPENION IN MY PREVIOUS POST, THIS IS A REMINDER REQUEST TO ALL BROTHERS

Shibani

November 29th, 2010, 07:30 AM

prashantacmet

November 29th, 2010, 11:50 AM

sanskrit word "dharma" is not same as western and islamic "religion" where monotheistic is prevalent. "dharma" is a way of life that is not entirely dependent on a single source or strictly follows norms set up and written in a single book, "dharma" is quite flexible not rigid as "religion". Religion is somewhat following a single book and a single person teachings and is true for muslims, christians and sikhs. Hinduism was never and will never be a "religion".

singhvp

November 29th, 2010, 03:10 PM

Samarkadian

November 29th, 2010, 03:15 PM

What is the Sanskrit/Hindi translation of religion, if not 'dharma'.

........सम्प्रदाय

singhvp

November 29th, 2010, 03:32 PM

Religion:
As already mentioned in previous posts religion is a way of life............I agree with it, but like everything its about time that religion changes and evolves. Religion has to be modernised as per the demands of the hour...which is to help the poor and less deprived, look after Mother Nature, fight corruption and inhuman people. People can choose a cause r and should spend time on working on that cause rather than spending hours listening to some mahatma lecturing about the basics of life.
We should be giving our kids lessons of respect and humanity and make them true humans. I don’t know how many of you would agree......but practical and logical approach towards life has to be applied. At the same time fear of God should always be there.
Caste and discrimination has to go. Over capitalism has to go out of our lives. Donating in the name of religion thinking god is going to be happy? I don’t understand this at all.

All I am trying to say is lets create a new way of life.....Lets be the leaders. I am sure the satisfaction one can get by serving a cause is far more than building those temples or sitting in them.

Very mature thoughts, Sibani. Religion is nothing more than a set of values invented and drafted by a particular social group to govern itself smoothly and to discourage immoral and unethical acts by the members of the group. These values/religious scriptures guide us through in our actions and help us to distinguish between good and bad. This set of values has to keep pace with constantly changing circumstances, material conditions and social behaviour and need modifications from time to time. However, it often happens that the above-mentioned set of values is not allowed to be modified according to changed time and environment, by some ignorant, selfish, and superstitious bigots. I think Jats are the least superstitious race but still some ignorance about religion prevails due to lack of education.

singhvp

November 29th, 2010, 03:37 PM

........सम्प्रदाय

Thanks, Samar. What is the English translation of "Dharma"?

prashantacmet

November 29th, 2010, 04:13 PM

Thanks, Samar. What is the English translation of "Dharma"?
It is used as it is . A web dictionary says "Basic principles of the cosmos"
http://hinduism.about.com/od/basics/a/dharma.htm

Samarkadian

November 29th, 2010, 04:15 PM

Thanks, Samar. What is the English translation of "Dharma"?

http://veda.wikidot.com/dharma-and-religion

Religion is a Western concept; the Indian concept is neither religion nor even Hinduism nor any ‘ism’ — it is Sanatana Dharma, the eternal law of the universe, which cannot be formulated in any rigid and final set of tenets.”

— Michel Danino

This may surely help in breaking this confusion.

prashantacmet

November 29th, 2010, 04:16 PM

singhvp

November 29th, 2010, 08:43 PM

http://veda.wikidot.com/dharma-and-religion

Religion is a Western concept; the Indian concept is neither religion nor even Hinduism nor any ‘ism’ — it is Sanatana Dharma, the eternal law of the universe, which cannot be formulated in any rigid and final set of tenets.”

— Michel Danino

This may surely help in breaking this confusion.

Interpretations differ from person to person. Only the language differ, connotations are same. You may call it religion, dharam, dharma or Sanatana Dharam, it is same thing. Go on google and you will find the literal translation of religion as dharam.

narendersingh

November 29th, 2010, 10:49 PM

I think Jats are the least superstitious race but still some ignorance about religion prevails due to lack of education.

Jats are still the least superstitious race.They motive is to burn there energy and there livelihood.They believe in Panch TATVA.Now the time is changing.Pandey,pujariun kee roji rotee chalaney kaa bhee zeema thaa liyaa jat biradaree ney.Sabko pata hai Tahmann to JAT hee taravega.

VirJ

November 30th, 2010, 05:37 AM

सम्प्रदाय is not religion neither is dhrama. Actually, we dont have a word for it because we dont have 'ISM'. However now a days due to lot of cross translations people have started using Dhrama = Religion. Islam, Christianity, and Jews are almost same with some minor difference. Their base is same. They basically differ on a couple of 'prophets' or son of God. As per Islam God cannot Has Son/daughter where as christians dont agree and believe Jesus was the son of GOD. Muslim regard him as a prophet and he is mentioned in Kuran as well. Christians dont agree on Mohamad being the last prophet. However they can marry each other without being converted. All other old dhramas or way of life are finished now except our. Like Arabs use to do ancestor/tribal worship and 'murti pooja' till Mohammad and his followers destroyed them. Islam believe God cannot be described and hence no murti can be made of GOD. Even imaginning the form of God is Gunah for them. Some islamic concepts has influenced some Hindu/Hindustani sects as well.

Hindu Dhram is much more rich than all other, I believe.

Shibani

November 30th, 2010, 08:34 AM

Very mature thoughts, Sibani. Religion is nothing more than a set of values invented and drafted by a particular social group to govern itself smoothly and to discourage immoral and unethical acts by the members of the group. These values/religious scriptures guide us through in our actions and help us to distinguish between good and bad. This set of values has to keep pace with constantly changing circumstances, material conditions and social behaviour and need modifications from time to time. However, it often happens that the above-mentioned set of values is not allowed to be modified according to changed time and environment, by some ignorant, selfish, and superstitious bigots. I think Jats are the least superstitious race but still some ignorance about religion prevails due to lack of education.

Thanks VPSingh Ji,
I agree that we are the least superstitious caste and therefore have the potential to bring a revolutionay change to this RELIGION definition. I am a believer of change as it is the only CHANGE IS THE ONLY CONSTANT IN WORLD. Therefore the sooner we change for betterment of human and every living thing we prove that we are superior.

I have been reading this thread and various other threads where we as in JATS are all trying to prove ourselves as being superiors.....agreed on few levels we are....but that was history and now its about time we prove once again we are superior by working on the real issues. Those that we can solve with our strength and power.

I think jatland has provided us a great platform to get together and discuss issues and various other things. I will be really interested in seeing a real change. I am all for it.

Oh also VPSingh Ji thanks for ur appreciation. I have to say there is a lot to learn from you. I have been going through your posts and admire your thoughts