Taboo Topic: Same sex relationships in Jats.

[vdhillon]

CATION:
1. MATURE NON-JUDGEMENTAL ABOVE 18yrs AUDIENCE ONLY, If you are underage, or are offended by so-called taboo topics of same-sex marriage, same gotra marriage, etc. PLEASE LEAVE THIS THREAD NOW.

2. THIS THREAD IS STRICTLY FOR CONSTRUCTIVE, NON-JUDGEMENTAL DISCUSSION.

3. STRICTLY NO BASHING OF GAYS (GLBT) and

------------------------------------------------------------------

Same sex relationships, do exist in jat community, rarely talked about and certainly judged as taboo, sexual deviants, perverts, social pariahs, suffering from mental disorder, etc. This is despite, Hinduism (a religion of majority Jat members of this site) immortalizing, eulogizing, promoting, accepting, practicing same-sex relationships as evident from temples of Ajanta and Ellora as well as multiple references in Kamasutra as to how to have those relationships, also many Hindu holyy text books have references to them 'mahabharata' jaidrath (or someone jo adha nar aur adha nari tha).

Taking a long-term view of history, Hindu and Jat samaj was not against GBLT relaitonships. After British colonialism, Victorian values were imposed on ruled Indian masses, those values included laws making same sex relationships an offence.

Homosexuality is not a mental disorder. Eerlier psychologist and non-Hindu theologists defined GBLT as perversion and mental disorder. Latest scientific research proves that gayism is all enshrined in genes and determined at embryonic stage. They are ass natural as we are. Let us not discriminate people who (up to 5% of general population) are born with this gene. We can not change the science, we must accept them, However, social dogma and negative attitude towards GBLT exist, which needs to be changed via awareness.

It is time to shun the taboo and dogmatic attitude about such relationships and go back to vedic era of acceptance.

Before, proceeding further, watch these videos:

1. National Geographic explains the biology of homosexuality http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saO_RFWWVVA

2. Also worth perusing is wiki "LGBT topics and Hinduism"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_topics_and_Hinduism
PS: For the record, I am a hetro guy who is highly pro-gay. If my offsprings turn out to be gay, I will still accept, love, be proud and supportive of them just the same without any dogma or stigma associated. I have GBLT friends and have worked for highly professional and competent openly-gay boss.

Now, lets discuss this within the specific context of Jat Samaj.

Thanks

[prashantacmet]

CATION:
1. MATURE NON-JUDGEMENTAL ABOVE 18yrs AUDIENCE ONLY, If you are underage, or are offended by so-called taboo topics of same-sex marriage, same gotra marriage, etc. PLEASE LEAVE THIS THREAD NOW.

2. THIS THREAD IS STRICTLY FOR CONSTRUCTIVE, NON-JUDGEMENTAL DISCUSSION.

3. STRICTLY NO BASHING OF GAYS (GLBT) and

------------------------------------------------------------------

Same sex relationships, do exist in jat community, rarely talked about and certainly judged as taboo, sexual deviants, perverts, social pariahs, suffering from mental disorder, etc. This is despite, Hinduism (a religion of majority Jat members of this site) immortalizing, eulogizing, promoting, accepting, practicing same-sex relationships as evident from temples of Ajanta and Ellora as well as multiple references in Kamasutra as to how to have those relationships, also many Hindu holyy text books have references to them 'mahabharata' jaidrath (or someone jo adha nar aur adha nari tha).

Taking a long-term view of history, Hindu and Jat samaj was not against GBLT relaitonships. After British colonialism, Victorian values were imposed on ruled Indian masses, those values included laws making same sex relationships an offence.

Homosexuality is not a mental disorder. Eerlier psychologist and non-Hindu theologists defined GBLT as perversion and mental disorder. Latest scientific research proves that gayism is all enshrined in genes and determined at embryonic stage. They are ass natural as we are. Let us not discriminate people who (up to 5% of general population) are born with this gene. We can not change the science, we must accept them, However, social dogma and negative attitude towards GBLT exist, which needs to be changed via awareness.

It is time to shun the taboo and dogmatic attitude about such relationships and go back to vedic era of acceptance.

Before, proceeding further, watch these videos:

1. National Geographic explains the biology of homosexuality http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saO_RFWWVVA

2. Also worth perusing is wiki "LGBT topics and Hinduism"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_topics_and_Hinduism
PS: For the record, I am a hetro guy who is highly pro-gay. If my offsprings turn out to be gay, I will still accept, love, be proud and supportive of them just the same without any dogma or stigma associated. I have GBLT friends and have worked for highly professional and competent openly-gay boss.

Now, lets discuss this within the specific context of Jat Samaj.

Thanks
"What should happen" and "what actually happen" are poles apart. A human is born and brought up under some "restrictions" imposed by surrounding environment, "restrictions" may be "cultural" "religious" or something else. So i don't know about high class, highly intellectual and sophisticated overseas/native Jat familes, but in a typical rural environment where 80% of The total jat population reside even 'intercaste marriages" is a stigma (gaam main kah hai ke khandaan kharab kar diya susree ne) so accepting gay and lesbians socially looks, if not centuries but definitely decades, away. Though "change" is a constant process and circumstances can compel changing fast to even Jats :)

[vdhillon]

"What should happen" and "what actually happen" are poles apart. A human is born and brought up under some "restrictions" imposed by surrounding environment, "restrictions" may be "cultural" "religious" or something else. So i don't know about high class, highly intellectual and sophisticated overseas/native Jat familes, but in a typical rural environment where 80% of The total jat population reside even 'intercaste marriages" is a stigma (gaam main kah hai ke khandaan kharab kar diya susree ne) so accepting gay and lesbians socially looks, if not centuries but definitely decades, away. Though "change" is a constant process and circumstances can compel changing fast to even Jats :)

Bhai Prashant, you made a very valid point about "What should happen" and "what actually happen". I am interested in both 'AS IS' and 'TO BE'.

[Shibani]

Bhai Prashant, you made a very valid point about "What should happen" and "what actually happen". I am interested in both 'AS IS' and 'TO BE'.

Hi Vishal....well the topic is quiet bold I have to say that JAT community has not even reached at a level to accept inter caste marriage. Accepting SAME SEX marriage is definitely not on the cards for another century. I do sympathies for all gays as well as lesbians in our community but apart from sympathy I pretty much have nothing else to offer.

I am though happy to support them. Beyond this I am unable to imagine anything. But happy to discuss.

[amitdabas22]

When the girls/guys in our community have the courage to flee and marry intrs/inter caste, gay/lesb relationship should not be a problem. Its upon the people involved to decide. Two guys or two girls staying together all the time should not be a problem for anyone in our country leave aside our community, as long as they keep it to themselves.
But one thing i can not understand is that y these people need to take out a parade to demonstrate themself when even the courts have legitimised the relationship. They ofcourse have the freedom to practice their sexual orientations!!

[vdhillon]

Hi Vishal....well the topic is quiet bold I have to say that JAT community has not even reached at a level to accept inter caste marriage. Accepting SAME SEX marriage is definitely not on the cards for another century. I do sympathies for all gays as well as lesbians in our community but apart from sympathy I pretty much have nothing else to offer.

I am though happy to support them. Beyond this I am unable to imagine anything. But happy to discuss.

Before we dive little deeper, I would like to say that I have been told that this is too bold a topic to be discussed on JL.

Since, Jats pride on bravado, veerta, masochism, etc, I would like to think that Jats are mature and brave enough to face and discuss tough questions/issues.


A. Social attitude towards lesbian relationships - amusement out of novelty
Jat Samaj may deem gay relationships as taboo but they look at lesbian relationships with relatively more tolerance, sheerly out of amusement, not out of awareness. This is evident by media reports of two girls running away from home and wanting to stay together or get married to each other. They was viewed and reported with same curiosity as the birth of a calf with 2 heads, etc.

Luckily, no honor killings of such cases, and thus far no intervention from khap-ke-talibani-thekedar. Most cases, these girls are denied their human rights and forcibly married off.


B. Social attitude towards Gay relationships - largely a black hole
Gay relationships in Jat Samaj are unheard off, never reported but does not mean they do not exist. This is more to do with a higher degree of social bigotry.

Though gay pride marches started in Delhi only 4 years ago but participant are increasingly becoming bold, this has spurred more people to come out of the closet. Delhi, though urban, but is right in the middle of the Jat hinterland.

Its a matter of time before winds of change reach them. Since jats in India live in relatively more well off states with higher surface transport connectivity, with relatively easier access to mobile and internet connectivity, they are likely to have quicker access to material that will make them aware of their rights.


C. Social attitude towards Bisexuals - hypocrisy, part of growing up or confused state of mind or dualism or denial or hiding behind definitions
Bisexuality is little more complex to define. Few people are bisexual and continue to remain so for life time. Others may occasionally experiment with it, specially while growing up.

Numerous studies have showed that many people experiment with both sexes while growing up, more so in societies where gender segregation is practiced. A society that practices gender segregation, like Jat samaj does, limits the access to other gender specially in pubescent and adulthood stages. This is further compounded by the fact that sex is considered a taboo in these society and high premium is placed on sexual purity and sexual morality. This limits the opportunity for growing up young ones to obtain education and awareness about sex and related issues. Even where sex education is mandatory part of school curriculum (e.g. Haryana), due to taboo it is taught in such an obscure manner to be of any real benefit.

This results in many youngsters turning to their own gender for sex education, out of curiosity, raging hormones, rapid physical changes, etc. Most end up getting incorrect information or mythical information (recently, I was surprised to see on facebook how many jat youngsters in early 20s, many studying professional courses and have undergone mandatory sex education in school in haryana, are unaware of mode of STD transmission and HIV prevention).

They also turn to their slightly older peers, mostly same-sex for experimenting with sex, including sexual-self-gratification (MODs, please at least leave one of these words intact, if not both), touching themselves or each other or even more. Many grow out of this as they step into adulthood. Does this temporary bi-sexuality, a growing-up part of life in conservative gender-segregated society, make many jats hidden gay/bi? I would like the readers to stop and reflect on their own experiences and then take the poll at the bottom of this post.

Secondly, there also exist an attitude, whereby being a top (dominant, acting as husband during the sexual act) is deemed more macho and less taboo or stigmatic compared to being a bottom (submissive, acting as wife during sexual act). There are cases of male to male rapes where another male is forced into such act just to humiliate. This is an example of forced bi-sexualism deemed derogatory (disrobing the victim of their ultimate jat pride) by seemingly macho perpetrator.


D.Social attitude towards Transgenders - badly discriminated and kept on the fringes of the society
The third gender, Hijras, are still kept at the fringes of the society and there are very few examples where they are given equal rights, right to stay with families, right to education and work like any of us. A highly disadvantaged group. In many countries, including buddhist Thailand, they are accepted as equal and allowed to go to universities and work respectably like anybody else.


E. GLBT Legal Rights in India - decriminalized but not legalized
Britishers imposed their Victorian morality in India and made the gay/lesbian relationships a legal offence. In 2009, supreme court of India struck down that law and 'decriminalized' same-sex relationships. These relationships have been 'decriminalized' (no longer a legal offence) but are yet to be 'legalized' (a legal status with own marriage, divorce, alimony, property division, right to have family, etc).


F. Take the POLL - Your personal attitude towards GLBT
This is an anonymous poll, other will not be able to see your individual vote (your identification will remain confidential), they will be able to see only the aggregated results.
http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?30862-Social-Attitude-towards-GLBT-(Gay-Lesbians-Bisexuals-amp-Trans-genders)-in-Jat-Samaj

Brave jats, come on out and discuss your views :)

[cooljat]

.

Against - They are deviant and perverts who need medical and psychological treatment !!

This sums it up. My Vote and thought for the same.

[vdhillon]

.

Against - They are deviant and perverts who need medical and psychological treatment !!

This sums it up. My Vote and thought for the same.

Thanks for sharing your views. I wish to understand the basis of your decision and supporting evidence-based arguments.

I also request to review the post-6.

[upendersingh]

When the girls/guys in our community have the courage to flee and marry intrs/inter caste, gay/lesb relationship should not be a problem. Its upon the people involved to decide. Two guys or two girls staying together all the time should not be a problem for anyone in our country leave aside our community, as long as they keep it to themselves.
But one thing i can not understand is that y these people need to take out a parade to demonstrate themself when even the courts have legitimised the relationship. They ofcourse have the freedom to practice their sexual orientations!!

Such people know that they are on wrong path. They do so because they also want others to join them and that is the main problem of this world. Bad people don't want to do bad things in isolation, but they start crying openly that how great they are and then they have to face the heat from the society. Nothing is impossible in this world. Just will power and continuous attempts are essential. If someone is gay by genes, then with strong will power one can get rid of it, as gay relationship is not natural. 2 males or females can't produce kids. Such relationship doesn't look good. Even animals don't have sexual attraction towards same gender. I hate gays.

[ritu]

I m totally against same sex relationships.some boundaries are set to preserve the normalacy of society.we r responsible for the future generations also.how confused and disturbed will be or are the kids of gay parents regarding their sexual orientation.i see at these things how these will affect our future generations and feel very responsible for guiding them for gud values not some confused orientations......if we will accept this now then i dread the next ,their is no end to it........

[rinkusheoran]

It has proven again and again that gay/lesbian are all acquired tendencies not natural just like we get use to other habit of drinking tea/coffee or some other habits. So if something want to acquire anything then its totally ones own choice.

People talked about same gotra marriage and now same sex marriage what about next , same sex marriage in same gotra???

[vicky84]

Same sex relationship is a matter of individual choice. I do not see anything wrong in that as long as it does not hurt others. Personally I don't like them.

P.S : That's what democracy is all about.

[vdhillon]

It has proven again and again that gay/lesbian are all acquired tendencies not natural just like we get use to other habit of drinking tea/coffee or some other habits. So if something want to acquire anything then its totally ones own choice.

People talked about same gotra marriage and now same sex marriage what about next , same sex marriage in same gotra???

A. Dogma and biased opinion vs hard but liberating facts
No they are not acquired tendencies. Long ago, I use to think the same way until I made the effort to make myself aware based on scientific facts - it was a slow process. Just like there is diff between 'academic education' and 'awareness (of issues)', same way there is diff between '(dogma and biased) opinion' and ' facts (that may challenge our long held incorrect views)' .

B. Gayism is not by environment, scientific proof that it is in the genes you pass on to your kids
Review the national geography video again. There is ample scientific evidence that its in gene and its natural. Some societies consider it wrong. Hinduism, for most part of its history of 3K to 5K years (except last 200yrs) has excepted and celebrated gayism - immortalized in temple carving and prayed them. Parents might not be gay (or have been hiding or suppressing) but they may pass their 'dormant' gay genes to kids - its not my opinion, its a verifiable scientific fact.

C. Impact of Environment/Society on Gays and Anti-Gays
Gayism is not acquired, what is acquired is 'dogmatic' view against gays or courage to accept or support them. This acquired attitude towards them (anti or support) comes from people's environment, their willingness see beyond obvious, question validity of things (not for the sake of rebellion or jhoota moderanization) that have been ingrained in us from childhood. That requires certain level of maturity and courage. Good thing is this courage and maturity can be 'acquired', only if we are open to it.

D. What next? Where are We headed?
What next?,
Cave man left their cave and moved into villages.
From villages they moved into urban India.
Then some urban jats moved to more liberal western countries overseas.
Some human even went to the moon?

What next?
.
.
Shall we go back to the cave?
.
.
How about a cave on the moon?
Afterall many of us want the physical progress science has to offer but we are yet to come out of 'intellectual' caveman attitudes. :)

Are you an intellectual caveman?
or
Are you a JAT, brave and veer, who steps out in da open and says, "throw the facts at me, and I shall decide based on verifiable fact, no matter how hard initially it may be to accept this and overcome my long held biases"?

Mr and Ms JATs - who are you?
Are you a jat? a jat in name or a jat in practice?
A jat living da dogma or doggedly determined to pursue da truth regardless of how harsh and disturbing it may be.

Thanks for reading my views.

Raam raam to all the 'Alsi' Jats with intellectual courage.

[vdhillon]

Same sex relationship is a matter of individual choice. I do not see anything wrong in that as long as it does not hurt others. Personally I don't like them.

P.S : That's what democracy is all about.

@Atish
I respect your views Atish. Its a good start. When I first migrated to Oz, i had similar views, with more exposer to GLBT colleagues, etc and awareness my views slowly evolved from tolerance to acceptance to pro (based on scientific fact, my ability to interact with them and understand them - removing fear of unknown and biases).

@ALL READERS
I would expect that those who are minorities (e.g. Indians living overseas) would be able to relate lot more to the issues of minority GLBT, one way to look at GLBT issues as minority issues/rights and it will make lot more sense in terms of easier to relate to, understand and finally accept them.

Few other questions, I would like to ask all readers are:
1. Have they experienced bi or gay experiences during growing up years (mild to strong experience) refer to my post 6, bullet point C above. Reflect and think.

2. What will you do if your child turns out to be gay? Will you force them into hetro marriage and ruin two lives? What if they do not listen? Will you grudgingly make yourself aware and try to accept? or will you 'jat bahar niskasit' them? or worse, will you kill them to protect your jhoota 'honor'? While you reflect on this, hug you child and contemplate.

Do not turn a blind eye. It could happen to you tomorrow - an openly gay family member or offspring (or inter-caste, inter-racial marriage).

You can only prepare yourself for it or continue to be an Ostrich with head in the sand.

Lets dare to be JAT, brave enough to deal with issues head on.

[Shibani]

I m totally against same sex relationships.some boundaries are set to preserve the normalacy of society.we r responsible for the future generations also.how confused and disturbed will be or are the kids of gay parents regarding their sexual orientation.i see at these things how these will affect our future generations and feel very responsible for guiding them for gud values not some confused orientations......if we will accept this now then i dread the next ,their is no end to it........

Ritu I understand your dilemma but I don't agree with it totally. Kids of today are so exposed to per say "Taboo" issues in their surrounds that they will not be confused but more informed. As parents we can guide our kids and be their best mentor but choosing a partner is going to be a totally personal choice. Imposing our choice is what going to make them confused. Are you trying to say that gay/lesbians don't have good values or their parents have lacked in their parental responsibility??? Whatever may be the case I have seen perfectly normal parents having gay kids.

I don't believe they chose a partner from the same sex due to confused orientations and they can be treated via some Rehablitation program or psychological treatment. They are perfectly normal beings who have a different choice which happen to be, choosing a partner from the same sex.

[vdhillon]

Ritu I understand your dilemma but I don't agree with it totally. Kids of today are so exposed to per say "Taboo" issues in their surrounds that they will not be confused but more informed. As parents we can guide our kids and be their best mentor but choosing a partner is going to be a totally personal choice. Imposing our choice is what going to make them confused. Are you trying to say that gay/lesbians don't have good values or their parents have lacked in their parental responsibility??? Whatever may be the case I have seen perfectly normal parents having gay kids.

I don't believe they chose a partner from the same sex due to confused orientations and they can be treated via some Rehablitation program or psychological treatment. They are perfectly normal beings who have a different choice which happen to be, choosing a partner from the same sex.

Perrrrfectooo! Shibani.

I am just adding the following:
Whatever may be the case I have seen perfectly normal parents having gay kids and gays raising normal kids.


Gays and Lesbian's Right to Adopt, Conceive or Raise Kids
In fact I can recall an incidence, once I was approached by a lesbian couple from Perth to be a sperm doner (no sex involved, child conceived using medical intervention, etc). I respectfully declined as I was not willing to have a child over whom I will not have any legal parental rights or wont be able to raise myself or not conceived with whom I was not living, etc. Though I wish to highlight, I am personally not against 'capable (of parental responsibilities)' gays or lesbian couples adopting or having biological kids by the way of surrogacy+medical or other methods.

Thats all from me for now. I am headed to my "Air Conditioned Medieval Cave" now <toink> <toink>. See you in the next post. Cheers! :)

[ritu]

Shibani i m no dilemma.i simply believe in rules of nature which tells me that hetro is the normal.which applies to plants animals and humans.kids have very tender minds and not all kids are smart enough.I am not questioning the values gay parents give to their kids.I feel responsible for my future genrations.I m not against gays but definitely wont support this sexual orientation.
Ritu I understand your dilemma but I don't agree with it totally. Kids of today are so exposed to per say "Taboo" issues in their surrounds that they will not be confused but more informed. As parents we can guide our kids and be their best mentor but choosing a partner is going to be a totally personal choice. Imposing our choice is what going to make them confused. Are you trying to say that gay/lesbians don't have good values or their parents have lacked in their parental responsibility??? Whatever may be the case I have seen perfectly normal parents having gay kids.

I don't believe they chose a partner from the same sex due to confused orientations and they can be treated via some Rehablitation program or psychological treatment. They are perfectly normal beings who have a different choice which happen to be, choosing a partner from the same sex.

[vdhillon]

Shibani i m no dilemma.i simply believe in rules of nature which tells me that hetro is the normal.which applies to plants animals and humans.kids have very tender minds and not all kids are smart enough.I am not questioning the values gay parents give to their kids.I feel responsible for my future genrations.I m not against gays but definitely wont support this sexual orientation.

Ritu ji, I agree with your view point that as per rules of nature "hetro" is normal, so is gay, lesbians, transgenders as proven by medical research, its in the gene. Like every one of has dormant TB, in some it develops into a disease. Same way everyone of has dormant GLBT genes, which get passed on to kids and in some kids they become 'active' at embroynic stage in the womb. These kids have no choice, its not a life style choice. Its this social practices in some societies make them 'not normal'. God has created all kinds - hetro, bi, homo & trans. There are many species of plant and animals born with both organs.

[singhvp]

All the gays and lesbians should be sent to concentration camps/correction centers in the dessert of Jaisalmer for a minimum term of 2 years to experience the riguors of life. Gay pride parade is sheer non-sense, height of perversion and demonstration of their shamelessness. Such kind of shameful activities must be dealt with iron hand. We cannot expect the liberty of doing any damn thing to quell the flames of our bestial lust. Tomorrow someone will seek a legislation for polygamy, promiscuity and right to rape.

[vdhillon]

Tomorrow someone will seek a legislation for polygamy, promiscuity and right to rape.

Polygamy and Promiscuity already exist. If all adult consenting parties are carrying it on then its their freedom of choice, why judge? Lets look into our collective societal hypocrisy.

Polygamy: Until British imposed Victorian laws on India, polygamy existed and was well accepted. Most Hindu kings and Hindu people with means were polygamous. even today, various tribes (Rajput and Jats) in Himachal and even Nepal practice one wife married to many brothers (to prevent division of property), Draupti, Raja Dashrath, all Pandava's and many wives. Our venerated Hindu icons were polygamous prior to British laws.

Promiscuity: Until islamic invasion there was no parda (veil) system, Hindu women wore two piece bikini type top (choli), a tribe (jat) that is largely follower of Shaivism, worships a phallus, takes pride in world's first ever manual on sex (that includes tips on gay, lo and behold 3sum, 4some, etc), glorifies promiscuity in erotic temple carving and worships phallus images...shall I go on more.

I rest my case :)

[ritu]

it is very convinent to have these liberal thoughts of broadmindedness untill you start applying them personally.i have a simple question to all the persons who strongly support this sexual orientation ....what if their sister wants to marry her lesbian partner?will you still be able to convince yourself or your parents with all these logics.I am saying all this bcoz i have one child(son) whom i want to see get married one day and want to play with my grandchildren(his own children ) and if any sexual orientation comes between me and my dream i strongly object it.

[vdhillon]

it is very convinent to have these liberal thoughts of broadmindedness untill you start applying them personally.i have a simple question to all the persons who strongly support this sexual orientation ....what if their sister wants to marry her lesbian partner?will you still be able to convince yourself or your parents with all these logics.I am saying all this bcoz i have one child(son) whom i want to see get married one day and want to play with my grandchildren(his own children ) and if any sexual orientation comes between me and my dream i strongly object it.

Please go back to my original post#1 and read the 'PS' section at the bottom of that post again. Im not preaching armchair stuff that I am not prepared to accept in my personal life.

[ritu]

theoretically it is very easy to say but when it comes to reality all the perspectives changes.i will only believe when in reality someone has done it.I will really respect that person .who really gets worried for the bosses or friends personal affairs?In this selfish so called modern world reality check starts when it comes at the personal front and directly hits you.
Please go back to my original post#1 and read the 'PS' section at the bottom of that post again. Im not preaching armchair stuff that I am not prepared to accept in my personal life.

[singhvp]

Polygamy and Promiscuity already exist. If all adult consenting parties are carrying it on then its their freedom of choice, why judge? Lets look into our collective societal hypocrisy.

Polygamy: Until British imposed Victorian laws on India, polygamy existed and was well accepted. Most Hindu kings and Hindu people with means were polygamous. even today, various tribes (Rajput and Jats) in Himachal and even Nepal practice one wife married to many brothers (to prevent division of property), Draupti, Raja Dashrath, all Pandava's and many wives. Our venerated Hindu icons were polygamous prior to British laws.

Promiscuity: Until islamic invasion there was no parda (veil) system, Hindu women wore two piece bikini type top (choli), a tribe (jat) that is largely follower of Shaivism, worships a phallus, takes pride in world's first ever manual on sex (that includes tips on gay, lo and behold 3sum, 4some, etc), glorifies promiscuity in erotic temple carving and worships phallus images...shall I go on more.

I rest my case :)

According to my knowledge, both polygammy and promiscuity are considered immoral by a wider section of Indian society. Minuscule exceptions are always there. In the eyes of law polygammy and promiscuity may not be punishable offense but these acts do not have legal sanctity either. People are, however, free to do whatever they like behind the curtains but these things cannot be propagated as routine chores.

Gayness and lesbianism are utter shame in a civilized society and people with such tendencies really need psychological treatment and de-addiction camps.

[vairesatendra]

Strictly against it.

[vdhillon]

theoretically it is very easy to say but when it comes to reality all the perspectives changes.i will only believe when in reality someone has done it.I will really respect that person .who really gets worried for the bosses or friends personal affairs?In this selfish so called modern world reality check starts when it comes at the personal front and directly hits you.

Read again: it says
"PS: For the record, I am a hetro guy who is highly pro-gay. If my offsprings turn out to be gay, I will still accept, love, be proud and supportive of them just the same without any dogma or stigma associated. I have GBLT friends and have worked for highly professional and competent openly-gay boss."


DEFINITION of Offspring from Wikipedia
Human offspring (descendants) are referred to as children (without reference to age, thus one can refer to a parent's "minor children" or "adult children"); male children are sons and female children are daughters

[vdhillon]

According to my knowledge, both polygammy and promiscuity are considered immoral by a wider section of Indian society. Minuscule exceptions are always there. In the eyes of law polygammy and promiscuity may not be punishable offense but these acts do not have legal sanctity either. People are, however, free to do whatever they like behind the curtains but these things cannot be propagated as routine chores.

Gayness and lesbianism are utter shame in a civilized society and people with such tendencies really need psychological treatment and de-addiction camps.

Shavite Hinduism is the dominant religion and sect practiced by Hindi (Khadi Boli) Jats of contemporary hinterland Jats (specific sample this JL website is targeted at). Last I checked, phallus worship is a norm, NOT an exception among them. Double standards do apply in our jat society.

Sometimes, social attitude seems to be, "its acceptable and in many cases it is desirable to indulge in phallus worship (without even ever stopping to think this may be Promiscuity) because my parents and grand parents taught me to do so from childhood, but I will not tolerate GLBT as I was never taught or made aware about them"

[ritu]

i m very much aware of the definition and meaning of offspring and gay.what i was trying to say that if you r hetro and have a offspring already and he or she is gay, if you have accepted her way of life then only your statement holds value for me.....i might be orthodox for some but not uneducated(Msc in science and very well versed with scientific terminologies)
Read again: it says

DEFINITION of Offspring from Wikipedia
Human offspring (descendants) are referred to as children (without reference to age, thus one can refer to a parent's "minor children" or "adult children"); male children are sons and female children are daughters

[vdhillon]

i m very much aware of the definition and meaning of offspring and gay.what i was trying to say that if you r hetro and have a offspring already and he or she is gay, if you have accepted her way of life then only your statement holds value for me.....i might be orthodox for some but not uneducated(Msc in science and very well versed with scientific terminologies)

Firstly, thanks for putting your view forth again.

Secondly, I commend you on continuing to engage in this taboo topic, as engagement is the first step towards exploration and eventual 'awareness'. Where many male in male-dominated jat society has shirked from engaging in discussion regarding this topic, you demonstrated moral courage to at least engage.

Thirdly, congratulations on your academic achievements as it is a good example of breaking stereotypes about jats, specially female.


Circular Iterative Argument Without Offering Evidence
Now about the topic itself. I believe, you are engaging in a circular argument without carrying teh discussion forward. There is a difference between 'logical argument' backed by evidence as opposed to deeply held personal view. I honestly do not think, this repeated reiteration of your 'personal opinion' without evidence-based logic, is adding any value to this discussion.

Unless you are prepared to entertain the possibility of accepting and supporting GLBT relative, you wont be able to do it in practice, thats the first step.

At this juncture, I urge you to review my post#13 again (Air Conditioned Cave on The Moon: Physical Progress yet Mindset Stuck In Caveman Mentality).


Food for Thoughts: Education vs Awareness vs Knowledge and Awareness
I will leave you with the following thoughts.

1. Change and acceptance begins with thought process. Those who are not even to contemplate despite ample evidence can not embrace a change in the positive direction, run the risk of becoming irrelevant, becoming out of tune with the evolving world.

2. Education is only an 'indication' of wisdom and awareness, but certainly NOT the 'proof' of it.

3. That is mainly because many 'academically educated' people chose not to be 'aware'. There is a difference between educated and "aware". Higher degree of awareness of issues is needed not high degrees/certificates.

4. Academic credentials become mere rote learning if not applied in the practice.

5. Hence, academic credential do not automatically make us more knowledgeable, wiser or issue aware.

6. With due respect to people's academic achievements and credentials, this is usually try to do like to see how people have used their education (be it formal academic credentials or informal self-taught, etc) as one of the many tools to make themselves 'issue aware' and applied into practice. Hence, I evaluate an argument (evidence-based argument or an informed hypothesis rooted in prior established knowledge) based on its merit, without any bias for the age, background or academic credentials of the presenter. Another simplistic way to understand this last statement is to view it in the context of two extreme end of the spectrum, "पढ़े लिखे अनपढ़ vs समझदार अनपढ़". Then view it in conjunction with 'Air Conditioned Cave on The Moon'.


Note: I am not making a value statement about you as I do not know you. Above-mentioned points are for you to ponder over, if you so wish.

Good night dear. Good bless you and your family.

See you tomorrow on da wall here.

Cheers! and nighty night.
V :)

[ritu]

I did not read the post above bcoz lack of time and patience.i wrote on this thread only bcoz of my responsibilty toward our future generation for guiding them what is right or wrong.i already have this issue discussed with my teenager son and hopefully all other parents should be doing the same at appropriate time with their kids.our kids should be educated and well informed about it.last post from my side.my moral purpose is served by conveying what i think is right for our jat community children.

[vdhillon]

I did not read the post above bcoz lack of time and patience.i wrote on this thread only bcoz of my responsibilty toward our future generation for guiding them what is right or wrong.i already have this issue discussed with my teenager son and hopefully all other parents should be doing the same at appropriate time with their kids.our kids should be educated and well informed about it.last post from my side.my moral purpose is served by conveying what i think is right for our jat community children.

Its futile to debate with someone who does not accord the courtesy of hearing/reading others argument (by your own admission, also evident from your multiple posts that you have not been reading counter arguments, nor you read the very first post itself) but continues to reiterate own biased argument without supporting evidence like a stuck records. If this is the case, do us all a favor and do not post anymore because you are denying the same courtesy to other which you seek from them (your argument to be heard). Bye.

[annch]

Vishal ji,

Is your support/understanding towards same gender affiliations determined by the evidence that such tendencies are genetic and can't be controlled, or is it because you are more tolerant and accepting about people?

Thanks

Thanks for sharing your views. I wish to understand the basis of your decision and supporting evidence-based arguments.

I also request to review the post-6.

[sunitahooda]

Vishal....Please don't direct other members when to write/what to write, if Ritu didn't have ample time to read all the posts it doesn't mean she CAN"T express herself. She admitted and your comment ain't very courteous. Anyone can still put forward their views even if they don't read all the posts.

She liked the topic. hence posted :) which is a nice gesture....compry?


Like I'm reading all the posts BUT not able to spare time to post my views :)
Its futile to debate with someone who does not accord the courtesy of hearing/reading others argument (by your own admission, also evident from your multiple posts that you have not been reading counter arguments, nor you read the very first post itself) but continues to reiterate own biased argument without supporting evidence like a stuck records. If this is the case, do us all a favor and do not post anymore because you are denying the same courtesy to other which you seek from them (your argument to be heard). Bye.

[singhvp]

Vishal....Please don't direct other members when to write/what to write, if Ritu didn't have ample time to read all the posts it doesn't mean she CAN"T express herself. She admitted and your comment ain't very courteous. Anyone can still put forward their views even if they don't read all the posts.

She liked the topic. hence posted :) which is a nice gesture....compry?


Like I'm reading all the posts BUT not able to spare time to post my views :)

Yes, Vishal I endorse Sunita ji's views. Il faut bien comprendre monsieur.....j'espere que tu a deja compris....

Bhai google par translate kar liye.

PS: Sunita ji aapka 1 number kat diya, spelling mistake ke liye. sahi spelling is compris.

[vdhillon]

Vishal ji,

Is your support/understanding towards same gender affiliations determined by the evidence that such tendencies are genetic and can't be controlled, or is it because you are more tolerant and accepting about people?
Thanks

Anjoo ji, I liked your comment as it touches upon a very fundamental aspect which we have not discussed thus far. Process of evolving attitudes, internal struggle to overcome dogma and adopt progressive views.

I will relate my journey to you with the view that this may be useful to other who are undergoing similar process. I came from middle class rural and semi-urban background of hinterland in Haryana. My social attitudes were no different from atypical people from similar background. My views gradually evolved with time, exposer, contemplation, investigating the evidence based facts, interacting with people I was biased against, confronting the strongly held dogmatic views within myself, etc.


No, it was not easy, it was scary at first, it pulled me out of my intellectual comfort zone. Some of the things I confronted, struck right at the core of my identity e.g. Jat, Indian, false sense of pride I had been thriving on, biases against others, etc. When that happens, we become more defensive and shut ourselves down. There was a stage, I will simply cling on to my viewpoint or belief, despite knowing that they were not right, purely because it was hard to let go. It took time and more courage to slowly overcome and evolve into more accepting and tolerant.

It was a combination of evidence based awareness and progressively becoming more tolerant due to exposer/interaction. It happened because I was prepared to confront and accept the evidence.


In relation to this specific topic (GLBT), it is primarily based on scientific evidence (after reviewing genetic, social and economical studies on GLBT) as well as increased tolerance towards things. This also had impact on me in other areas e.g. becoming tolerant about others doing things I myself might not be comfortable doing e.g. Same Gotra, as of now I am not comfortable doing it myself but I will be tolerant to others even if this happens in my family.

[vdhillon]

Vishal....Please don't direct other members when to write/what to write, if Ritu didn't have ample time to read all the posts it doesn't mean she CAN"T express herself. She admitted and your comment ain't very courteous. Anyone can still put forward their views even if they don't read all the posts.

She liked the topic. hence posted :) which is a nice gesture....compry?

Like I'm reading all the posts BUT not able to spare time to post my views :)

Bebe Sunita ar VPSingh Ji mein ap ka najariya samajh sakta hun. I agree with your position on freedom of expression and that people can post (even must be encouraged, not many people post, among them rare female) even when they have not read all the posts. This freedom of expression also includes my right to express my 'request' to ask for a 'favor' to spare me from this. Please note, I did not 'direct', I courtseously requested a favor). Why? Read on please.

On the other hand, it is also evident that this person did not even read my original post (PS section specifically) despite me pointing them back to it few times, but she continued to reply to my posts (not just a generic post on her part but multiple replies to my posts).

Let me explain by an example, this is akin to bunch of people discussing a topic in a chaupal, someone coming in shouting their views at a specific person without offering any evidence to back it up (even that is ok to certain degree), then zipping out and not having patience or bothering to listening to subsequent discussion in chapual, and then re-enter the chaupal to reiterate the same opinion without considering/hearing/reading all the discussion that has gone on before. Its like, I am here to say something to you, I will say it without offering evidence, but I wont bother to listen to your reply to me, I will come in later to keep reiterating the same. While I wont extend you the courtesy of listening to your reply to me but I expect you to extend me the courtesy of your audience.
I am on this thread to learn from people, including from people with views different from mine, by engaging in interactive and informed discussion, not to harp on my 'opinions' with out evidence. May be I am spoiled in the sense that bulk of the people I have discussion with come from the background where they will engage in interactive and B]evidence-based[/B] discussion in a productive and constructive manner even if confrontational at times.
If others continue to post away without bothering to engaging in interactive manner, just re-iterate opinion with no evidence, without having time or patience to review my reply to them, then they should hold on until they have time to reveiw it before posting. Otherwise, I also got no time or patience for such behavior. Please note, I am against this kind of behavior, not the person, hence I am happy to apologize to Ritu on a personal note if she felt offended as a human but I still uphold my views against that kind of behavior (basically its not about meri ego teri ego se badi type of stuff, I ams ure both me and Ritu are above this. Its about the properly engaging in discussion, if you got not time for me then don't waste my time either), with teh benefit of hindsight, may be I should have presented my view/peev differently, may be ... just may be ... but not sure yet :).

Finally, I respect your freedom of expression, your view point and feedback to me, I have clarified my stand, and I thank you both for extending me the courtesy of your audience (no pun intended). Yo bi thara pyar se mere khatar jo tham na ya baat point out kari, nahi to haar koi eesa feed back na diya karta. Hugzzzzz :)

@Sunita: Chhori, time kaad le kime post karan ka, there arent many female on the forum, 2ndly you are among one of the rare few with JAT 'courage' to express your views or take lead even when male shy away from posting on taboo topics, 3rdly you have progressive view and hopefully it will shame our alpha male jats to confront their biases and see the light (mahri Jatni mahre te age se, you girls are the leading lights). Actually, i noticed its the female on JL who have comparatively more progressive views, may be because we jat males have suffocated and subjugated them for so long (hmmss, naya taaga shuru karna padge es pe te)

Sunita and VPSing Ji: जिस ढाल थम दोनों जाने मेरे गिल लगे सो, मनने compry या compris की नहीं, campari की जरूरत महसूस होवन लाग री स, VP Singh Ji काड़ की रखियो इक मेरे खातर with ice :)

[prashantacmet]

Shavite Hinduism is the dominant religion and sect practiced by Hindi (Khadi Boli) Jats of contemporary hinterland Jats (specific sample this JL website is targeted at). Last I checked, phallus worship is a norm, NOT an exception among them. Double standards do apply in our jat society.

Sometimes, social attitude seems to be, "its acceptable and in many cases it is desirable to indulge in phallus worship (without even ever stopping to think this may be Promiscuity) because my parents and grand parents taught me to do so from childhood, but I will not tolerate GLBT as I was never taught or made aware about them"
By the way, what is this "phallus" worship? I don't get it

[vdhillon]

By the way, what is this "phallus" worship? I don't get it

"phallus" worship is "शिव लिंग की पूजा" which is not a taboo क्यों की हमें बचपन से सिखाया गया है तो हमें आदत पड़ गयी है and we do not question it or deem it promiscuous. All most all Jat villages have a Shivalaya. Prior to Arya Samaj and despite Arya Samaj most jats are Shaivite Hindus (शैव मत के हिन्दू)

[vdhillon]

Vishal....Please don't direct other members when to write/what to write, if Ritu didn't have ample time to read all the posts it doesn't mean she CAN"T express herself. She admitted and your comment ain't very courteous. Anyone can still put forward their views even if they don't read all the posts.

She liked the topic. hence posted :) which is a nice gesture....compry?

Like I'm reading all the posts BUT not able to spare time to post my views :)

Sunita bebe ar VPSingh Ji mein ap ka najariya samajh sakta hun. I agree with your position on freedom of expression and that people can post (even must be encouraged, not many people post, among them rare female) even when they have not read all the posts. This freedom of expression also includes my right to express my 'request' to ask for a 'favor' to spare me from this. Please note, I did not 'direct', I courtseously requested a favor). Why? Read on please.

On the other hand, it is also evident that this person did not even read my original post (PS section specifically) despite me pointing them back to it few times, but she continued to reply to my posts (not just a generic post on her part but multiple replies to my posts).

Let me explain by an example, this is akin to bunch of people discussing a topic in a chaupal, someone coming in shouting their views at a specific person without offering any evidence to back it up (even that is ok to certain degree), then zipping out and not having patience or bothering to listening to subsequent discussion in chapual, and then re-enter the chaupal to reiterate the same opinion without considering/hearing/reading all the discussion that has gone on before. Its like, I am here to say something to you, I will say it without offering evidence, but I wont bother to listen to your reply to me, I will come in later to keep reiterating the same. While I wont extend you the courtesy of listening to your reply to me but I expect you to extend me the courtesy of your audience.
I am on this thread to learn from people, including from people with views different from mine, by engaging in interactive and informed discussion, not to harp on my 'opinions' with out evidence. May be I am spoiled in the sense that bulk of the people I have discussion with come from the background where they will engage in interactive and B]evidence-based[/B] discussion in a productive and constructive manner even if confrontational at times.
If others continue to post away without bothering to engaging in interactive manner, just re-iterate opinion with no evidence, without having time or patience to review my reply to them, then they should hold on until they have time to reveiw it before posting. Otherwise, I also got no time or patience for such behavior (note, I am against this kind of behavior, not the person).

Finally, I respect your freedom of expression, your view point and feedback to me, I have clarified my stand, and I thank you both for extending me the courtesy of your audience. Cheers and hugzzzzz :)

[prashantacmet]

"phallus" worship is "शिव लिंग की पूजा" which is not a taboo क्यों की हमें बचपन से सिखाया गया है तो हमें आदत पड़ गयी है and we do not question it or deem it promiscuous. All most all Jat villages have a Shivalaya. Prior to Arya Samaj and despite Arya Samaj most jats are Shaivite Hindus (शैव मत के हिन्दू)
I got it now. By the way, I have a question moving back and forth in my mind. You talk about scientific evidences in the favor gay and lesbian something is in their genes and they cann't control it. So Cann't we defend a rapist in the same way?..There was something in this his mind and he could not hold it on..was craving for sex....just lost control from himself..went into mental agitation...and raped a woman..it is not his fault.......it was psychological disorder or something was in hi genes that compelled him to do so................

[vdhillon]

I got it now. By the way, I have a question moving back and forth in my mind. You talk about scientific evidences in the favor gay and lesbian something is in their genes and they cann't control it. So Cann't we defend a rapist in the same way?..There was something in this his mind and he could not hold it on..was craving for sex....just lost control from himself..went into mental agitation...and raped a woman..it is not his fault.......it was psychological disorder or something was in hi genes that compelled him to do so................

A. I Commend Your Curiosity and Willingness To Discuss Evidence
Yes you are raised an interesting point and this kind of investigation, questions and challenging things lead us to more informed decisions. I thank you as well as commend you daring to venture in this dark area, shows at least you are open to the facts.

B. Diff Between Rights of Rapist and GLBT
IMO, there are few key differences:
B.1. GLBT are Genetically Pre-Programmed but No Evidence that Rapist are Genetically Programmed:
Though GLBT may be genetically pre-determined (not just environmental or social factors) but there is no 'DIRECT (emphasis)' evidence that some people are genetically programmed to 'rape'. They may be genetically, biologically or mentally suffering from other ailments which may make them to have less control or reduced comprehension of implications of their actions. What I mean to say is those ailments may be secondary factors as opposed to direct evidence e.g. HIV/AIDS does not directly kill a person. It merely kills our immune system, our immune system can no longer fight other diseases, and those other diseases kill us. So HIV/AID can be cured either by finding a way to directly kill HIV/AIDS virus or finding a way to boost the immune system despite having HIV/ADIS (continuous re-fortification).

B.2. Principal of Freedom to Chose Without Hurting Others: Rapists Hurt Another Party, but GLBT do not
To me, this is the most important factor that differentiates our judgement about 'rapists' vs 'GLBT'. GLBT are free to live their life style as they are not imposing their will or harming a 3rd person. Whereas a rapist imposes himself/herself and hurts a non-consenting party. Hypothetically, lets assume both GLBT and Rapists are Genetically pre-disposed but this diff about hurting other party is a clincher for me. For this reason alone I will still support GLBT but be against rapists - personally this nails it for me.

C. Welcoming the Further Discussion
Im interested in your views, both pro and cons. If pro (agreeable) then it will help to deepen my own understanding and accumulate 'weight of evidence' in favor, if 'counter' views then it may again help to deepen my understanding by looking at newer facts. In general, I am open to learn more based on the evidence and having my thinking challenged/altered accordingly. I am very opinionated but that does not automatically make me knowledgeable. I have 'awareness (sufficient to make an informed decision)' of some (not all) issues bu this doe snot automatically makes me an 'expert' in that subject. Hence, the reason for me to be here to discuss and learn more from other people (such as yourself), but only from those who wish to sincerely engage and interactively discuss based on facts.

[spdeshwal]

मूलतः स्त्री पुरुष में शारीरिक सम्बन्ध प्रजनन किर्या का हिस्सा है !
स्त्री पुरुष की शारीरिक सरंचना भी इसी रूप में हुई है !
भगवान् , या जिस भी प्राकृतिक शक्ति ने इंसान बनाया है, प्रक्रति के कुछ सटीक नियमो के अनुसार ही बनाया है !
स्त्री पुरुष में कामुक प्रिक्रिया व् शारीरिक सम्बन्ध भी प्राकृतिक नियमो व् मरियादाओं के अनुरूप ही प्रेरित होता है और घटित होता है !
उन प्राकृतिक नियमो के प्रतिकूल किया गया आचरण , किसी मानसिक व् शारीरिक विकार का प्रतिफल ही होगा!

मनुष्य ही क्यों, पशु पक्षियों में भी शारीरिक सम्बन्ध नर मादा में ही होता है!
संभवतः: मनुष्य, पाशाण युग में या उससे पहले, शारीरिक सम्बन्ध केवल प्रजनन के लिए ही बनाता होगा !
जैसे २ मनुष्य सभ्य होता गया संबंधों में स्थायित्व व् वैवाहि संस्था का विकाश हुआ, यह मन बहलाव का प्रमुख स्रोत भी बन गया!
अतः: मेरा दृढ मत है की पुरुष का पुरुष के प्रति व् स्त्री का स्त्री प्रति कामुक आकर्षण अप्राकृतिक है!
इस तरह के व्यव्हार में संलिप्त जोड़े मानशिक विकार से ग्रस्त हैं !
में यहाँ ये भी कहना चाहूँगा कि मेरा सम्लेंगिकों के प्रति कोई दुराभाव नहीं बल्कि , किसी दुसरे मानसिक रोगी तरह ही उदार व् दयाभाव ही होगा!

सत्यपाल

[cooljat]

.

Couldn't agree more. Concur with Bhaisaab's pragmatic explanation.
I wonder how people try to justify unnatural acts ...

Vishal, Satyapal ji explained it well .. my views are same in sync with his views.

Cheers
Jit


मूलतः स्त्री पुरुष में शारीरिक सम्बन्ध प्रजनन किर्या का हिस्सा है !
स्त्री पुरुष की शारीरिक सरंचना भी इसी रूप में हुई है !
भगवान् , या जिस भी प्राकृतिक शक्ति ने इंसान बनाया है, प्रक्रति के कुछ सटीक नियमो के अनुसार ही बनाया है !
स्त्री पुरुष में कामुक प्रिक्रिया व् शारीरिक सम्बन्ध भी प्राकृतिक नियमो व् मरियादाओं के अनुरूप ही प्रेरित होता है और घटित होता है !
उन प्राकृतिक नियमो के प्रतिकूल किया गया आचरण , किसी मानसिक व् शारीरिक विकार का प्रतिफल ही होगा!

मनुष्य ही क्यों, पशु पक्षियों में भी शारीरिक सम्बन्ध नर मादा में ही होता है!
संभवतः: मनुष्य, पाशाण युग में या उससे पहले, शारीरिक सम्बन्ध केवल प्रजनन के लिए ही बनाता होगा !
जैसे २ मनुष्य सभ्य होता गया संबंधों में स्थायित्व व् वैवाहि संस्था का विकाश हुआ, यह मन बहलाव का प्रमुख स्रोत भी बन गया!
अतः: मेरा दृढ मत है की पुरुष का पुरुष के प्रति व् स्त्री का स्त्री प्रति कामुक आकर्षण अप्राकृतिक है!
इस तरह के व्यव्हार में संलिप्त जोड़े मानशिक विकार से ग्रस्त हैं !
में यहाँ ये भी कहना चाहूँगा कि मेरा सम्लेंगिकों के प्रति कोई दुराभाव नहीं बल्कि , किसी दुसरे मानसिक रोगी तरह ही उदार व् दयाभाव ही होगा!

सत्यपाल

[vdhillon]

.

Couldn't agree more. Concur with Bhaisaab's pragmatic explanation.
I wonder how people try to justify unnatural acts ...

Vishal, Satyapal ji explained it well .. my views are same in sync with his views.

Cheers
Jit

Re bawle, tu ade kisa ees tagge me uljha pada s, aaj to haam sare 'Honey, pyar ke kissi" aale tagge pe jee sa le re saa... aaja ude ar chaap de eek aad kissa, ees tagge ne kaal dekha ge ;)

[singhvp]

"phallus" worship is "शिव लिंग की पूजा" which is not a taboo क्यों की हमें बचपन से सिखाया गया है तो हमें आदत पड़ गयी है and we do not question it or deem it promiscuous. All most all Jat villages have a Shivalaya. Prior to Arya Samaj and despite Arya Samaj most jats are Shaivite Hindus (शैव मत के हिन्दू)

Fully agree with you. This amounts to preach promiscuity and spread superstition. Young girls are beguiled into believing that they will get as handsome and virile a husband as Lord Shiva if they worship "phallus" ( शिव लिंग). Ironically, this superstitious tradition is being practiced by many young and educated girls also who do not take pains to find any scientific reasoning behind this.

[sanjaymalik]

मूलतः स्त्री पुरुष में शारीरिक सम्बन्ध प्रजनन किर्या का हिस्सा है !
स्त्री पुरुष की शारीरिक सरंचना भी इसी रूप में हुई है !
भगवान् , या जिस भी प्राकृतिक शक्ति ने इंसान बनाया है, प्रक्रति के कुछ सटीक नियमो के अनुसार ही बनाया है !
स्त्री पुरुष में कामुक प्रिक्रिया व् शारीरिक सम्बन्ध भी प्राकृतिक नियमो व् मरियादाओं के अनुरूप ही प्रेरित होता है और घटित होता है !
उन प्राकृतिक नियमो के प्रतिकूल किया गया आचरण , किसी मानसिक व् शारीरिक विकार का प्रतिफल ही होगा!

मनुष्य ही क्यों, पशु पक्षियों में भी शारीरिक सम्बन्ध नर मादा में ही होता है!
संभवतः: मनुष्य, पाशाण युग में या उससे पहले, शारीरिक सम्बन्ध केवल प्रजनन के लिए ही बनाता होगा !
जैसे २ मनुष्य सभ्य होता गया संबंधों में स्थायित्व व् वैवाहि संस्था का विकाश हुआ, यह मन बहलाव का प्रमुख स्रोत भी बन गया!
अतः: मेरा दृढ मत है की पुरुष का पुरुष के प्रति व् स्त्री का स्त्री प्रति कामुक आकर्षण अप्राकृतिक है!
इस तरह के व्यव्हार में संलिप्त जोड़े मानशिक विकार से ग्रस्त हैं !
में यहाँ ये भी कहना चाहूँगा कि मेरा सम्लेंगिकों के प्रति कोई दुराभाव नहीं बल्कि , किसी दुसरे मानसिक रोगी तरह ही उदार व् दयाभाव ही होगा!

सत्यपाल

Deswal Sir, bin ki bin. Totally concur with you. Such kind of relationship are totally against the Nature. Nature has asigned particular function to particular sex and spices.

[upendersingh]

मूलतः स्त्री पुरुष में शारीरिक सम्बन्ध प्रजनन किर्या का हिस्सा है !
स्त्री पुरुष की शारीरिक सरंचना भी इसी रूप में हुई है !
भगवान् , या जिस भी प्राकृतिक शक्ति ने इंसान बनाया है, प्रक्रति के कुछ सटीक नियमो के अनुसार ही बनाया है !
स्त्री पुरुष में कामुक प्रिक्रिया व् शारीरिक सम्बन्ध भी प्राकृतिक नियमो व् मरियादाओं के अनुरूप ही प्रेरित होता है और घटित होता है !
उन प्राकृतिक नियमो के प्रतिकूल किया गया आचरण , किसी मानसिक व् शारीरिक विकार का प्रतिफल ही होगा!

मनुष्य ही क्यों, पशु पक्षियों में भी शारीरिक सम्बन्ध नर मादा में ही होता है!
संभवतः: मनुष्य, पाशाण युग में या उससे पहले, शारीरिक सम्बन्ध केवल प्रजनन के लिए ही बनाता होगा !
जैसे २ मनुष्य सभ्य होता गया संबंधों में स्थायित्व व् वैवाहि संस्था का विकाश हुआ, यह मन बहलाव का प्रमुख स्रोत भी बन गया!
अतः: मेरा दृढ मत है की पुरुष का पुरुष के प्रति व् स्त्री का स्त्री प्रति कामुक आकर्षण अप्राकृतिक है!
इस तरह के व्यव्हार में संलिप्त जोड़े मानशिक विकार से ग्रस्त हैं !
में यहाँ ये भी कहना चाहूँगा कि मेरा सम्लेंगिकों के प्रति कोई दुराभाव नहीं बल्कि , किसी दुसरे मानसिक रोगी तरह ही उदार व् दयाभाव ही होगा!

सत्यपाल

9.5/10. Very well said SPD sir.

[ravichaudhary]

"phallus" worship is "शिव लिंग की पूजा" which is not a taboo क्यों की हमें बचपन से सिखाया गया है तो हमें आदत पड़ गयी है and we do not question it or deem it promiscuous. All most all Jat villages have a Shivalaya. Prior to Arya Samaj and despite Arya Samaj most jats are Shaivite Hindus (शैव मत के हिन्दू)

It is unfortunate that some, reduce the concept of ‘ Shivji” to a phallic symbol.


Indeed, if asked, millions of Hindu ladies, who go and do Puja at a Shivlingam, would probably answer that that linkage is furthest from their thoughts.


Those interested , in going deeper may wish to read an article below; URL also supplied.

There is more ,. But this will be a start.


Ravi Chaudhary


http://www.shaivam.org/articles/art_sivalinga_saba.htm


Siva Linga
by S. Sabaratna Mudaliar
(S. Sabaratna Mudaliyar of Sri Lanka was the Deputy Fiscal of Jaffna. In Ceylon, "Mudaliyar" is a coveted title and not an honorific suffix. He felt that a mischievous propaganda was carried against Hinduism on purpose. Indeed he was once himself a victim of such vituperative tirade. He woke up in time and assiduously applied himself to a proper study of Hinduism in general, and Saivism in particular. His outstanding contribution to Saivism is his work entitled: "Essentials of Hinduism, In the Light of Saiva Siddanta" (1913). Hereunder is printed his lecture, delivered at the Jaffna Hindu College Hall, on 21 February 1913. If the concept of Siva Linga does not lie within the ken of the comprehension of even gods like Vishnu and Brahmma, can we expect unsympathetic and intolerant fanatics to even glimpse it? - Editor.)
Siva Linga is a sacred object of worship among the 200 millions of Hindus who occupy the vast continent of India and the spicy isle of Ceylon. They represent a seventh part of the population of the whole world and they enjoy an unrivalled reputation for their ancient civilization. Their religion is admittedly the oldest of the exising religions and it is an undeniable fact that it has created an exceptionally high degree of spiritual fervour in the hearts of its adherents. The effect of the religion on its adherents could be easily gauged from the standard or morality maintained by them, and I am sure that a crime statistics of the different countries of the world would show the "Mild Hindu" to great advantage. The object of worship of such a people should not be attacked at random, and the feelings of the 200 millions offended for no mistake committed by them. I do not think that the propagation of any religion involves the necessity of offending the feelings of believers in other religions; but on the contrary, it is, I think, the duty of every believer in God that he does not in any way hurt the feelings of others who likewise believe in God, but in a different form. I am very sorry to find that this important duty of man is lost sight of by some of our Christian friends who would not scruple to call Siva LInga, our sacred object of worship, a Phallic emblem. If this is what is known as Christian principle, I will speak no more of it. Let it speak for itself.
But I am glad that this uncalled for and unpardonable attack on the part of a Christian writer has given the Hindus an opportunity to explain the true significance of Siva Linga, and I therefore consider it my duty, as a Hindu, to lay before the public the little that I know of the subject.
Before entering into an explanation of Shiva Linga, I have to say a few words on the meaning of the word Linga. Linga is derived from the Sanskrit root Lika which means to sculpture or to paint, and Linga means one that sculptures or paints. God being the Sculptor of the Universe, He is known as Linga, and this word has become ultimately to mean any form or symbol that represents Him. It has become in a later stage to mean any sign or symbol, in a general sense, and it is in this sense the word is used now. Refer to any Dictionary - Sanskrit or Tamil -, and you will find the meaning of the word as a symbol or mark - a சின்னம், a குறி. The word is used in this sense by Lexicographers, Grammarians and Logicians; and it may even be found as a technical term used in this sense in Hindu Logic. Lingapattiam is the name of a commentary on the meanings of Sanskrit words, and one could clearly see in what sense the word is used as the title of that Book. But of course, in course of time, the word happened to convey other meanings as well and among them that of the generative organ, by the common law of degeneration of words which is not peculiar to Tamil or Sanskrit alone. Even then, this degenerated import of the word is not its chief meaning, but it is only a secondary one of very rare use. How the word happened to be used in this sense could itself be easily traced. There is an etymological rule in Tamil known as இடக்கரடக்கல் which is a form of decorum used in giving expression to objects which would not admit of open mention. The genital organ came to be referred according to this rule as இலிஙம் or குறி, and the use of these words in this sense has become a fashion in course of time. Not only the word Lingam but the word Kuri itself is used in this sense; but no one who has any idea of Tamil will contend that every Kuri is a genital organ. The word Kuri means a punctuation, a brandmark &c., &c., and I am sure that no punctuation, will ever be said to represent a genital organ.
Another derivation, of the wrd Lingam is Llng, which means involution, and Gam, which means evolution. So, that Lingam is the principle of involution and evolution combined together, and such a combination can only be traced to God, the primordial cause of the whole Jagat.
It could thus be clearly seen that the radical meaning of the word Lingam does not in the least convey any sense applicable to the generative organ, but, on the contrary, the real meaning of the word may be found so sublime and so deep that it will immensely benefit one to scrutinise the word and learn its meaning analytically.
So far for the word Lingam. I will now proceed to explain, as briefly as I can, the meaning of Siva Lingam, but I must say at the outset that this object has a large stock of mysticism about it which can only be explained by an adept for whose qualifications I have the least pretence. Siva Lingam is explained at great length by Siva Agamas and several Puranas; and the Vedas themselves could be found to have their own explanation of Siva Lingam.
It is the main principle of Hindu philosophy - and I am sure that principle is admitted by all religions -, that every particle of this great Jagat is moved by God. There cannot be any movement without God, and the existence of the universe would be altogether impossible without Divine energy. The principle of creation has been very minutely and systematically described in our sastras according to which Siva Linga is the embodiment of the cosmic creation. There was the Nirguna Brahm; and there was the primordial cosmic element called Maya. What was the course taken by the Divine Energy in producing the cosmic world out of Maya? Maya is an extremely subtle matter without any form or shape, and it is of two kinds - Suddha Maya and Asuddha Maya - or the lower and upper Maya. This Maya is in the presence of Sivam or Nirguna Brahm and that of its Sakti or Divine Energy. This Sakti having energised Suddha Maya, the Mundane egg of the universe was formed. This was Nadha or the principle of sound. This was what is known as Nama or name - the first expression of limitation. From this Nadha or Name came out Bhindu or Rupa i.e., the form - the second stage of limitation. This name and form - Nama and Rupa - is what is known as Omkara Pranava; and this is the seed and seat of all matter and force. The Nadha is represented by a line and the Bhindu by a disc. It is this Nadha or vibration that is known as Linga and Bhindu is what is known as its Pita. This LIngam with its Pitam or the principle of Name and Form is still beyond comprehension, and the form that could be comprehended a little better came out of the Bindhu above referred to in the order of evolution. This is what is known as Sadakkiam or Sadasivam. This is Rupa-Rupam or with shape and without shape From this Sadhasiva came out Mahesvera. With fully developed form, from him Rudra, in the region of Asuddha Maya, from him Vishnu, and from him, Brahma.

[ravichaudhary]

These nine different phases or Navapitam are the different stages of evolution which the great God - or properly speaking - His Sakti -, assumed in mainfesting Itself to the souls - or in fact to excite their intelligence, and evolve this Jagat or universe out of Maya. The different actions in the region of Suddha Maya are performed by Sadhasiva and Maheswara, while those in the lower Asuddha Maya by Rudra. Vishnu and Brahma - the Hindu Triad. It could thus be seen what position the Nadha and Bhindhu hold in the order of cosmic evolution. These two principles as I have already said, are known as Pranava - Nadha representing Nama, and Bhindhu representing Rupa - and it is this Pranava that is represented by Siva Lingam. Natham or the principle of egg - is represented by aline and Bhindhu, the next stage, by a disc. The line is the Linga and the disc is the Pita. We know that the principle of all writings in any language is embodied in this line and disc. Can we with any sense of correct knowledge call this Linga an emblem of generative organ? I am sorry that our critics are unable to form an idea of the creative principle except through the genital organ. You will see that in the order of evolution above out-lined, no fully developed form is manifested until the stage of Mahesvara is reached. Is it possible then to call Nadha and Bhindhu which are far above the developed form of Mahesvara as one of his organs?
Siva Linga again is said to be of three kinds - Vyaktam, Avyaktam and Vyaktavyaktam or Sakalam, Nishkalam, and Sakalanishkalam. The pure form of Sat, Chit and Anandam of Sivam is known as Avyaktam or Nishkala Lingam. The form to which name and form are particularly traceable is called Vyaktavyaktam or Sakalanishkala Lingam. It is this that is generally known as Sadakkiam or Siva Lingam. The form in which name and form are fully developed is called Vyaktam or Sakala Lingam. Under this class of Vyaktalingams fall the 25 forms of Mahesvara, such as Chandrasekara, Uma Mahesa &c. &c., These forms are fully developed and are said to embody the various limbs of a perfect form, such as head, face, hands, legs &c. It is the embodiment of all these limbs that is called Mahesvara Linga, and can we then say that the Figure embodying all these limbs represents only one of such limbs - the phallus? and can we call the Avyakta and Vyaktavyakta Lingas which have no body or shape whatever, a phallus - a fully developed form?
This Sadakkiam or Siva Lingam is again explained in the Agamas in five other forms; namely Siva Sadakkiam, Amurti Sadakkiyam, Murti Sadakkiyam, Kartiru Sadakkiyam and Karma Sadakkiam. Of these five, the Murti Sadakkiya-Linga and Kartiru-Sadakkiya-LInga exhibit in their forms fully developed faces, and they are called Muka-Linga-Murti or Linga with face. May I ask our critics whether a phallus has a face?
The Siva Linga that is generally seen in many of our temples is the form of Karmasadakkiam which embodies in it the jnana-lingam of Nadham and the Pita Lingam of Bhindu. This is what is known as Sadakkiam or the form of God in His capacity as the Agent of the five actions of Srishti, Stiti, Sankkaram, Thirobhavam and Anugraham. In other words, Siva in His capacity as the Agent of Panchakrityam is known as Linga, meaning thereby the Sculptor of the universe, as already explained and as the primordial germ of the cosmic appearance. The Agamas explain at length that this Linga embodies in it the various differentiations of the Jagat known as He, She and It, and in fact they allot different portions of this Linga for the different differentiations. This form, again, embodies in it the Hindu Triad of Brahma, Vishnu, and Rudra as well as the Vyashti forms of Pranava which is the germ of the 96 elementary principles of the Jagat known as Tatvas. We may be able to learn a good deal of the cosmic principles, and of their modes and methods of involution and evolution if we study under a competent preceptor the true meaning of Siva Linga. I would refer you to a series of very valuable and interesting articles contributed to the Madras Siddhanta Dipika in 1906 and 1907 by Mr. Rangaswamy Aiyar under the heading "The inner meaning of Siva Lingam". The sublime meaning of Siva Linga may be found expounded in Tirumantram, Linga Puranam, Siva Puranam, Vayusamhita Sutasamhita and several other Tamil works of great reputation, and the Agamas devote volumes to the excellence of Siva Linga. If one could have a glimpse of the meangings of the several rites and ceremonies performed at a Linga-Stapana, one would be able to have a correct meaning of the sacred Siva Lingam.
The Agamas again speak of seven kinds of Linga, viz;- Gopuram, Sikaram, Dvaram, Prakaram, Balipitam, Archalingam and Mulalingam. The Tower, the dome, the gateway, the courtyard round the temple, are all called LIngas as they represent Siva-Sakti one way or the other, and are therefore entitled to our veneration and worship. Are these all to be called phallic symbols, I ask? It is again one of the important doctrines of the Hindu religion that we have to perform our worship of Guru, Jangamam, and Lingam. The Lingam herein referred to is a term which includes the various images of Siva which we worship in our temples. Can we say that all these images are phallic symbols? Surely it does not require much research into the Hindu Sastras to have a general idea of the meaning of Siva Lingam, and it is not possible to conceive how the critics came to make this unfounded and blasphemous allegation againt our sacred object of worship which is replete with sound and solemn significance. It may be that a phallic emblem was considered sacred by ancient Romans or Greeks. But Hindus are neither Romans nor Greeks; and it is quite unreasonable and uncharitable to charge the Hindus with an idea for which they were in no way responsible. Evidently the ancient Romans or Greeks borrowed the Linga worship from the Hindus, and in their debased ignorance put a wrong construction on it, having misunderstood the language used by the Hindus in describing it. Are the Hindus to be taken to task on account of an idiotic mistake committed by foreign nations?
If we refer to the Puranas, we find Siva Linga being further explained. When Brahma and Vishnu, in their arrogance, fought with each other for supremacy, the Lord Paramesvara appeared in their midst in the form of a flame whose beginning or end they were unable to discover. This flame of immeasurable effulgence is called Linga. This Linga is said to represent the sacred fire of the Vedic Yajnas, while the temples stand for the sacrificial grounds. These temples again represent our hearts or Hridaya, and our Lord is said to abide in our hearts in the form of a Linga or a glow of effulgence, as the soul of our souls. Surely none of these significances of Siva Linga has any reference to phallic emblem, and I challenge our critics to quote a single verse in any of our Sastras in support of their unfounded allegation.
I think I have said enough to convince you that the charge laid against our sacred object of worship is as unfounded as it is blasphemous. If you have a desire to be more fully informed of Siva Linga you will do well to make a study of it under a competent Guru, and you will then be able to see how the incomprehensible and indescribable Sivam assumed this Linga form in order to make Himself known to us, and how this Linga form comprises in itself, in a very subtle manner, the most primordial germ of the whole Jagat -- in short how the unlimited Sivam started a limitation to benefit the innumerable souls. I hope, and I pray that you will all be benefitted by this. Maha Linga Siva Rupam.

[ end of article]

[sunillathwal]

Fully agree with you. This amounts to preach promiscuity and spread superstition. Young girls are beguiled into believing that they will get as handsome and virile a husband as Lord Shiva if they worship "phallus" ( शिव लिंग). Ironically, this superstitious tradition is being practiced by many young and educated girls also who do not take pains to find any scientific reasoning behind this.

Many linguistics believe that "लिंग" (or Lingam) is NOT a phallic symbol... Apparently, lingam means pillar or Satambh (and not in slang form). There are many theories behind that origin of worshiping the Shiva-Lingam.


An obvious question to the Shiva Ling-theory is: Why do men worship Shiva-Lingam? Do they aspire to be gay?
:)

Update: Did not see Ravi ji's posts while posting in this thread (bad timing).

[annch]

Prabably they aspire to become that a woman is praying for......


An obvious question to the Shiva Ling-theory is: Why do men worship Shiva-Lingam? Do they aspire to be gay?
:)

Update: Did not see Ravi ji's posts while posting in this thread (bad timing).

[singhvp]

Many linguistics believe that "लिंग" (or Lingam) is NOT a phallic symbol... Apparently, lingam means pillar or Satambh (and not in slang form). There are many theories behind that origin of worshiping the Shiva-Lingam.


An obvious question to the Shiva Ling-theory is: Why do men worship Shiva-Lingam? Do they aspire to be gay?
:)

Update: Did not see Ravi ji's posts while posting in this thread (bad timing).

You dismissed my theory, fair enough. Now, I have a question as a student. What is the basic purpose/origin of this ritual, the logic behind this 'pillar' worship and its benefits? I would out-rightly reject the Hindu mythology written by idle Brahmins. Please base your analysis on scientific reasoning supported by visible and tangible evidences and the applicability of the benefits of this tradition in contemporary world.

[annch]

Vishal ji,

Agree with you to a certain point. First and foremost, it is your attitude that allows you to respect people in general and accept the differences/ deviants, before you weigh the evidences. Right?

Regards

Anjoo ji, I liked your comment as it touches upon a very fundamental aspect which we have not discussed thus far. Process of evolving attitudes, internal struggle to overcome dogma and adopt progressive views.

I will relate my journey to you with the view that this may be useful to other who are undergoing similar process. I came from middle class rural and semi-urban background of hinterland in Haryana. My social attitudes were no different from atypical people from similar background. My views gradually evolved with time, exposer, contemplation, investigating the evidence based facts, interacting with people I was biased against, confronting the strongly held dogmatic views within myself, etc.


No, it was not easy, it was scary at first, it pulled me out of my intellectual comfort zone. Some of the things I confronted, struck right at the core of my identity e.g. Jat, Indian, false sense of pride I had been thriving on, biases against others, etc. When that happens, we become more defensive and shut ourselves down. There was a stage, I will simply cling on to my viewpoint or belief, despite knowing that they were not right, purely because it was hard to let go. It took time and more courage to slowly overcome and evolve into more accepting and tolerant.

It was a combination of evidence based awareness and progressively becoming more tolerant due to exposer/interaction. It happened because I was prepared to confront and accept the evidence.


In relation to this specific topic (GLBT), it is primarily based on scientific evidence (after reviewing genetic, social and economical studies on GLBT) as well as increased tolerance towards things. This also had impact on me in other areas e.g. becoming tolerant about others doing things I myself might not be comfortable doing e.g. Same Gotra, as of now I am not comfortable doing it myself but I will be tolerant to others even if this happens in my family.

[VirJ]

Though this shouldnt be dragged here in this funny way(at least by us) still here is what I think it is. I have mentioned earlier that hinduism is very vast and rich civilisation. The definition of hinduism isnt what you hear from your 'civilised' friends. Now how come such rich civilisation worship a thing like "shiv-ling'? Fair enough! But to understand the answer you need to get out of your prejudices build by false propagandas by others. Our religion. in fact all religions( actually we should say civilisation or way of life) were attacked by Islamic and Chritianity either through force or through false propagandas. Only this great civilisation has survived, rest perished. In christianity 'sex' was a crime commited by Adam & Even. For them no woman was greater then "virgin" Marry. And they think virgin Mary was 'without sin'. For us 'sex' was an act of reproduction, an act with give life, it wasnt a sin as clear in various pictures, references. We worship, GOD in different forms and each form has a meaning. Shiv ling with Y represent life, synergy. Its not always about sex, sometime its about giving life and this also stands as a symbol of that. This is a symbolic reference as to the creator and has much deep and wider meaning. The article provided by Ravi can also help understanding this.

Our ancestors were not that fool, I believe. Similar references can be seen in another great civilisation(Chinease).

[rinkusheoran]

A. Dogma and biased opinion vs hard but liberating facts
No they are not acquired tendencies. Long ago, I use to think the same way until I made the effort to make myself aware based on scientific facts - it was a slow process. Just like there is diff between 'academic education' and 'awareness (of issues)', same way there is diff between '(dogma and biased) opinion' and ' facts (that may challenge our long held incorrect views)' .

B. Gayism is not by environment, scientific proof that it is in the genes you pass on to your kids
Review the national geography video again. There is ample scientific evidence that its in gene and its natural. Some societies consider it wrong. Hinduism, for most part of its history of 3K to 5K years (except last 200yrs) has excepted and celebrated gayism - immortalized in temple carving and prayed them. Parents might not be gay (or have been hiding or suppressing) but they may pass their 'dormant' gay genes to kids - its not my opinion, its a verifiable scientific fact.

C. Impact of Environment/Society on Gays and Anti-Gays
Gayism is not acquired, what is acquired is 'dogmatic' view against gays or courage to accept or support them. This acquired attitude towards them (anti or support) comes from people's environment, their willingness see beyond obvious, question validity of things (not for the sake of rebellion or jhoota moderanization) that have been ingrained in us from childhood. That requires certain level of maturity and courage. Good thing is this courage and maturity can be 'acquired', only if we are open to it.

D. What next? Where are We headed?
What next?,
Cave man left their cave and moved into villages.
From villages they moved into urban India.
Then some urban jats moved to more liberal western countries overseas.
Some human even went to the moon?

What next?
.
.
Shall we go back to the cave?
.
.
How about a cave on the moon?
Afterall many of us want the physical progress science has to offer but we are yet to come out of 'intellectual' caveman attitudes. :)

Are you an intellectual caveman?
or
Are you a JAT, brave and veer, who steps out in da open and says, "throw the facts at me, and I shall decide based on verifiable fact, no matter how hard initially it may be to accept this and overcome my long held biases"?

Mr and Ms JATs - who are you?
Are you a jat? a jat in name or a jat in practice?
A jat living da dogma or doggedly determined to pursue da truth regardless of how harsh and disturbing it may be.

Thanks for reading my views.

Raam raam to all the 'Alsi' Jats with intellectual courage.

If you calls this as the liberalization then me more than happy to be dogmatic and biased. I have noticed this thing in your post someone not having same opinion and same thinking level then it is dogmatic and biased opinion this is the way you think?? What is proof that the studies that you have read are final or absolutely correct , may be they were done by the people who were bisexual, what is the authenticity those report?? india mein to baba ramdev bolta hai ki main inn gay/lesbian ko thik kar sakta hun dave k sath if you have any take him to him.
This is something that is not natural and people who support it are making all effort to prove that it is natural.

in foreign its very much common that girls get pregnant( that too at the age of 14-18) and have kids before marriage, that is also very much normal, will you allow your kids something like that?

I really appreciate your liberalization, you have compared the man coming out from caves to accepting gayism/lesbianism..great.

I dont have any issues in accepting the people but i simple dont like there sexual orientation that is all.

Let me ask a question to you, why you joined JATLAND when you have other site awhere you will find lot many people discussing the same things?

[vicky84]

india mein to baba ramdev bolta hai ki main inn gay/lesbian ko thik kar sakta hun dave k sath if you have any take him to him.


hahahahahaha..Bhai Ramdev ki main himmat maanoon hoon..Yu baba Ramdev ke ke thik karega :D.. Kaade yo nyu keh hai ke main corruption door kar doonga, pher nyu keh hai ke main national party chalaoonga. Angrezzi system ko hata ke apna system lagaoonga, saari bimari door kar doonga loggan ki...itne kaam kyukar karega :D.. Jai ho baba Ramdev ki

[singhvp]

@Vipin: Vipin what does "shiv ling" symbolizes? Is it some body part of Shiv or something else? If it symbolizes a body part then what is the point in worshiping it. Isn't it better to worship the entire statue of the deity instead of just one body part, if beneficial at all.

[VirJ]

VP ji, Didn't I briefly mention in earlier post what it symbolize. I know you will always see it as a body part and attach it to sex:) Its not your fault. If you really want to understand, I recommend you read full reference in our ancient text but with an open mind. Hope you would get better idea and bigger picture and as Ravi mentioned the article provided above and this diagram could be a good start.

[vicky84]

You dismissed my theory, fair enough. Now, I have a question as a student. What is the basic purpose/origin of this ritual, the logic behind this 'pillar' worship and its benefits? I would out-rightly reject the Hindu mythology written by idle Brahmins. Please base your analysis on scientific reasoning supported by visible and tangible evidences and the applicability of the benefits of this tradition in contemporary world.

VP Sir,

If the article posted by Shri Ravi Chaudhary ji is authentic then its quite clear that it Linga does not mean a genital organ. I think its misunderstood by people. As we see lot of examples in our daily lives where people with different dialect come up with their own meaning without understanding the real meaning.

Linga is derived from the Sanskrit root Lika which means to sculpture or to paint, and Linga means one that sculptures or paints. God being the Sculptor of the Universe, He is known as Linga, and this word has become ultimately to mean any form or symbol that represents Him. It has become in a later stage to mean any sign or symbol, in a general sense, and it is in this sense the word is used now. Refer to any Dictionary - Sanskrit or Tamil -, and you will find the meaning of the word as a symbol or mark - a சின்னம், a குறி.

[singhvp]

VP Sir,

If the article posted by Shri Ravi Chaudhary ji is authentic then its quite clear that it Linga does not mean a genital organ. I think its misunderstood by people. As we see lot of examples in our daily lives where people with different dialect come up with their own meaning without understanding the real meaning.

Linga is derived from the Sanskrit root Lika which means to sculpture or to paint, and Linga means one that sculptures or paints. God being the Sculptor of the Universe, He is known as Linga, and this word has become ultimately to mean any form or symbol that represents Him. It has become in a later stage to mean any sign or symbol, in a general sense, and it is in this sense the word is used now. Refer to any Dictionary - Sanskrit or Tamil -, and you will find the meaning of the word as a symbol or mark - a சின்னம், a குறி.

To avoid any confusion, this sculpture could have been given another shape like, square, round, rectangular or the shape of an object/creature. It seems to be purposefully, sculptured by Brahmins to make it resemble Shiva's body part to attract more and more lady worshippers. This new definition seems to be an afterthought. These Tamilians are conservatives of the first order. They are still living in 13th century.

[vicky84]

To avoid any confusion, this sculpture could have been given another shape like, square, round, rectangular or the shape of an object/creature. It seems to be purposefully, sculptured by Brahmins to make it resemble Shiva's body part to attract more and more lady worshippers. This new definition seems to be an afterthought. These Tamilians are conservatives of the first order. They are still living in 13th century.

VP Sir,

You may be right in saying that. I found something on wiki. Still not concluded with its meaning. It's debatable ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingam

The origins and interpretations of the Lingam are a subject of intense debate. According to one tradition, the Lingam represents the beginning-less and end-less Stambha pillar, suggesting the infinite nature of Shiva.[2][3] Another theory suggests that the Lingam is a symbol of male creative energy or of the phallus[4][5]

The Lingam is often represented with the Yoni, a symbol of the goddess or of female creative energy.[4] The union represents the "indivisible two-in-oneness of male and female, the passive space and active time from which all life originates".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoni

Vivekananda's words at the congress were in connection with the paper read by Mr.Gustav Oppert, a German Orientalist, who tried to trace the origin of the Shalagrama-Shila and the Shiva-Linga to phallicism. To this Vivekananda objected,[17] adducing proof from the Vedas, and particularly the Atharva-Veda Samhita, to the effect that the Shiva-Linga had its origin in the idea of the Yupa-Stambha or Skambha—the sacrificial post, idealized in Vedic ritual as the symbol of the Eternal Brahman.[2][3] According to Vivekananda, the explanation of the Shalagrama-Shila as a phallic emblem was an imaginary invention. Vivekananda argued that the explanation of the Shiva-Linga as a phallic emblem was brought forward by the most thoughtless, and was forthcoming in India in her most degraded times, those of the downfall of Buddhism.[3]

According to Swami Sivananda, the view that the Shiva Lingam represents the phallus is a mistake;[18]
This is not only a serious mistake, but also a grave blunder. In the post-Vedic period, the Linga became symbolical of the generative power of the Lord Siva. Linga is the differentiating mark. It is certainly not the sex-mark. You will find in the Linga Purana: Pradhanam prakritir yadahur-lingamuttamam; Gandhavarnarasairhinam sabda-sparsadi-varjitam—The foremost Linga which is primary and is devoid of smell, colour, taste, hearing, touch, etc., is spoken of as Prakriti (Nature).

[vdhillon]

If you calls this as the liberalization then me more than happy to be dogmatic and biased. I have noticed this thing in your post someone not having same opinion and same thinking level then it is dogmatic and biased opinion this is the way you think?? What is proof that the studies that you have read are final or absolutely correct , may be they were done by the people who were bisexual, what is the authenticity those report?? india mein to baba ramdev bolta hai ki main inn gay/lesbian ko thik kar sakta hun dave k sath if you have any take him to him.
This is something that is not natural and people who support it are making all effort to prove that it is natural.

in foreign its very much common that girls get pregnant( that too at the age of 14-18) and have kids before marriage, that is also very much normal, will you allow your kids something like that?

I really appreciate your liberalization, you have compared the man coming out from caves to accepting gayism/lesbianism..great.

I dont have any issues in accepting the people but i simple dont like there sexual orientation that is all.

Let me ask a question to you, why you joined JATLAND when you have other site awhere you will find lot many people discussing the same things?

A. Those Who Do not Agree With Me Are Not Dogmatic or Wrong: They Only Have Different Views
I have not branded or judged any individual on the forum as dogmatic.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
B. Terminology We Use is Important: "GRANULARITY" of Terminology Is Equally Important To Avoid Misinterpretation - "Not White" does not mean "Black"
I have not said those who do not agree with my views are dogmatic. This is your interpretation which might "not be accurate" (Please note the terminology, "not accurate" does not mean "wrong").

Let me help you understand with an example. If I say something is not white, it automatically does not make that object 'extreme opposite' of white (i.e. black), that object could be neutral, colorless or transparent, many shades of gray or any color in the rainbow. If you automatically assume that by saying 'not white' I imply 'black' then thats your thought process, but I would not call your thought process wrong, I will term it 'not accurate and granular enough' in this specific point. Hope this clarifies.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
C. Using Emotionally Evocative Terminology To Make People Think (good or bad, pro or anti, thinking abt the issue first is a good start
Though, it is true that some times I am knowingly trying to use terms or statement that emotionally appeal to people or strike a chord (good or bad). Reason being is, I am just trying to make audience think with my argument, not necessarily agree with me.

You may say, people are wise enough to see through this, and I would readily agree but it is still a good way to reach out to the 'inner' thinking/feeling human in other people.

There might be other, better, ways to do it and I will be happy to listen and learn about those from you or other members.

If my arguments make people think, thats a good start for me, people can then undertake their own journey. Please refer to my text in Anjoo's post# 53.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
D. I Will Accept/Alter My Views Only If You Refute My Arguments With Verifiable Scientific Evidence (yet I will respect your right to have non-scientific arm chair opinion)
You have raised interesting (interesting doe snot mean right or wrong or valid, please note the terminology I use). I have at least presented the scientific evidences based on verifiable and repeatable studies.

If you are countering or questioning them, you are entitled to that opinion and I respect that entitlement and your right, but it will not sway me unless you provide me scientific evidence to refute my statement. If you believe in your refuting statements then dig out some evidence, I will be happy to review. Otherwise, its just an arm chair opinion. धुल में लट्ठ कोई बी मार सकता है, back your argument with evidence if you wish to take this discussion forward. Show me a counter study that study i have provided is wrong or show anotehr study that refutes the results of study.

Same thing about your argument about baba ramdev, I can not go out find gays and force them to go to baba ramdev and there are millions of people making such claims. it comes down to same thing again. Dont throw random claims on me. Show me a scientific study that verifies that baba ramdev can cure and then I will respond.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
E. Answer to Personal Question Posed to Me: Discussion Is About My Ideology/Attitude, Not About My Personal Life, yet I will answer this time.

E.1 Difference Between "Ideology We Subscribe To" versus "What We Practice"
You asked me some personal questions. There is a difference Between "Ideology We Subscribe To" versus "What We Practice".

First of All, this debate (शःस्त्रर्थ) it is not about my personal life. It is about ideology I subscribe to. So lets debate 'ideology' based on arguments backed up by scientific evidence. And then determine the validity of the argument based on the evidence, regardless of the person putting forth the argument practices it or not, believes in it or not. Its the scientific-evidence that should matter, not the person. Its not a personal matter of ego ke kaon sahi ha ya nahi.

If the person who is advocating and putting forth the argument does not practice the argument, then it makes the person hypocrite but the argument itself still remains valid based on the evidence. Then you can judge the person negatively but must judge the argument positively/valid


E.2 Question Of Personal Nature: Whose Business Is That? - I will make an exception here and answer it
As explained before, my personal life is no ones business (unless the person has created a personal rapport with me and posed the question in private), still I will make an exception here. Re: my offspring having child out of wed lock, I do not see a problem as long as they are of age where medically their body is mature enough to go through the process. My concern for my offspring will be about their happiness, safety, health and (if possible) financial security. Apart from that, if they do things that may not be social norms accepted by the 'majority', so be it. I will love them just the same, be proud of them as a parent, try to shield them from unnecessary guilt or undue pressure from others.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
F. What is Your Intent to Question My Presence on JL or My "So Called' Taboo Posts? - जिस तरा तू आया, नु इ में आया, भाई ना में ठेकेदार ना तू, सही बात से क नहीं ;)
Whats wrong in me joining JL or discussing taboo topic on JL?
Are you questioning my right to chose to join JL or my right to freedom or expression?
Bhai, I do not get you, please enlighten me as to the intent of your question.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Raam Ramm Bhai... Bhool Chook Hoi Ho Koi, Kimme Baat Ka Bura Laag Ja to 'ADVANCE Mei MAAFI' de diye, ... view may differ lekin our humane friend remains ... chaal pher ya lee eek jaffi ... pappi ja ke aapni GF te maang <toink> <toink> ... lol

[singhvp]

VP Sir,

You may be right in saying that. I found something on wiki. Still not concluded with its meaning. It's debatable ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingam



Thanks Atish for sharing the information.
पर भाई मैंने इन अन्ध्विशासी और ठग पुजारियां की बात पै विश्वास सा न हो रह्या. और छानबीन करण की जरूरत सै, कदे ये झूठ बोल रे हों. लाग्या रह.

[vdhillon]

Many people have given argument and counter arguments about the meaning of the Shiv Lingam.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Real Meaning of Shiv Lingam: Sculpture of Sex Organs with various Symbolic and Higher Meanings

Members have given many meaning of Shiv Lingam. Regardless of what those meaning are (including one that says sculpture, etc), one thing is very clear this is a sculpture of male sex organ jutting out of female sex organ. Its very visible, in fine details (not a rough similarity). Now people can argue and debate but it is clear we worship two sex organs, though there may be many 'symbolic' well intended, pious, etc explanation.

I originally wrote about Shiv Lingam in response to a post that said we should not allow 'promiscuous' things in Jat samaj including openly same sex relationships.

I argued, jat samaj already accepts many promiscuous things, its our attitude not the acceptance of promiscuous things. Why some so-called promiscuous things are acceptable (worship of sex organs and their blatantly visible sculpture) and why some so-called promiscuous things are not acceptable (e.g. GLBT relations even if they are not having public sex)? it is to do with our attitude and long held biases.

I wanted to bare the hypocrisy in our attitude and thought process, never intended to initiate a debate on the deeper symbolic meaning of Shiva's sex and his consorts sex organs. To me, if we do not accept GLBT mainly because we deem them promiscuous yet we tolerant or accept or even indulge in the worship of sex organs and we do not find them promiscuous, then we better think again :)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Symbolic and Higher Meanings Can be Reverse Engineered and Assigned to Anything (even to Bad things like rape) to make them sound divine/acceptable - see example below
More on the symbolic meaning of the sex organs of shiva and parvati (worshiped by Hindus). Eek andha bhi tatol tatol ke bata sakta hai ke wo sex organs hai chahe us ka symbolic meaning kuch bhi ho.

Agar symbolic meaning hi nikalne hain, to aur kuch kyon nahi mila.

I think this may have happened (only possible among many), hinduism is evolution of animistic and naturalistic religious practices. Later people started to assign higher, symbolic meanings.

For example:
A painter may create a master piece and die. later critics will debate, write thesises and find higher meaning which the poor original painter may have never though of. Give me a word or scenario and I can start justifying it (reverse engineer several higher symbolic meanings while providing references to unrelated verses from scriptures). For example, we can say GLBT are superiors because they are biologically not same as us, e.g. a transgender person has mix of male and female organs to woh bhagwan Shiv aur mata parvati ke avtar woh 'shiv ling jutting out of yoni' ke jite jagte avtar hain, they represent maya, they respresent creation and self sufficiency, (and so on and on...) they are kalyug ke avtar, un ki pooja karni chahiye... etc. This example is for illustration purpose, I do not intend to argue GLBT are superior or inferior, my point is they are same as us except sexual orientation. by this example I wish to argue that, it is easy to manufacture 'higher' symbolic meaning for नंगे पुंगे sex organs or even bad deeds (even repulsive rape).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Whats I am Trying to Convey - Our Attitude Makes Things Acceptable or Not, Lets challenge our selective application of attitudes
I am not pro or anti such worship or higher symbolic divine assignment of meaning. I used this as an example to state the following:
So called promiscuity does exist in jat samaj, its our attitude and meaning we assign to them that makes them divinely acceptable or repulsive. Path to tolerance and acceptance is through change in personal attitudes.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now can we please get back to discussing GLBT :)

थम करो बात चीत, में ईबे आया, कुण्डी सोटे का प्रयोग कर के कोई ख़ास दवाई बनान खातर (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvgo53BBR2U) <toinkz> <toinkz> ... lol

हर हर महादेव
बम बम भोले

[vdhillon]

9.5/10. Very well said SPD sir.

I respect Bhai Satpal's views but Dont completely agree. I am writing to ask, bhai ya adhe number ki kanjoosi kis baat ki

[vdhillon]

Vishal ji,

Agree with you to a certain point. First and foremost, it is your attitude that allows you to respect people in general and accept the differences/ deviants, before you weigh the evidences. Right?

Regards

Thanks Anjoo. You put it in a much better and more granular manner than me. I will remember and shameless use it in the future.

You said it rightly, "FIRST we must have an open attitude, BEFORE we weigh the evidence" otherwise we will keep refusing to accept the evidence without 'refuting' it with an evidence-based scientific counter argument.

[singhvp]

Many people have given argument and counter arguments about the meaning of the Shiv Lingam.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Real Meaning of Shiv Lingam: Sculpture of Sex Organs with various Symbolic and Higher Meanings

Members have given many meaning of Shiv Lingam. Regardless of what those meaning are (including one that says sculpture, etc), one thing is very clear this is a sculpture of male sex organ jutting out of female sex organ. Its very visible, in fine details (not a rough similarity). Now people can argue and debate but it is clear we worship two sex organs, though there may be many 'symbolic' well intended, pious, etc explanation.


बम बम भोले

Excellent and crystal clear explanation about symbolism of the mysterious sculpture.

[sunillathwal]

You dismissed my theory, fair enough. Now, I have a question as a student.
1. What is the basic purpose/origin of this ritual, the logic behind this 'pillar' worship and its benefits?
2. I would out-rightly reject the Hindu mythology written by idle Brahmins.

3. Please base your analysis on scientific reasoning supported by visible and tangible evidences and the applicability of the benefits of this tradition in contemporary world.

1. Respected Sir, I did NOT dismissed your (!) theory. Since every poster in this thread had assumed (!!) Shiv Ling as 'Phallus', I just pointed out that this might NOT be the case.

2. I would not accept or reject Hindu mythology written by idle (btw if they were writing, it means they were not Idle.. :D) Brahmins. After all it is mythology.

3. Well, scientific reasons would outrightly reject the whole concept of any kind of rituals/worshiping and associated superstitions.

Nonetheless scientifically speaking, the 'benefits' of going to temples for worshiping Shiva (Lingam or not) in contemporary world include:

A) best scenario: Among the crowd, you see a beautiful girl (and vice-versa); certain hormones play their roles, you fall in love and get married or get a gf. Happy ending.

OR

B) In worst case: As a part of crowd, you breath the air contaminated by sick (literal) (wo)men; you too get sick and thanks to recklessness by doctors, you get really sick and DIE... which is doubly-ironic [because Shiva is supposed to be the destroyer and he did his job to the perfection even though death was not something you wished for.]


P.S. Is it not strange that Shiva whom Hindu mythology paints as the "[I]destroyer of the universe" is associated with evolution-of-life/birth/conceive (if the shiva-lingam-is-the-phallus theory is correct)?
Common sense suggests that there would be Brahma-Lingam as Brahma is supposed to be the creator of universe (and hence life). Any thoughts?

[sunillathwal]

To avoid any confusion, this sculpture could have been given another shape like, square, round, rectangular or the shape of an object/creature. It seems to be purposefully, sculptured by Brahmins to make it resemble Shiva's body part to attract more and more lady worshippers. This new definition seems to be an afterthought. These Tamilians are conservatives of the first order. They are still living in 13th century.

VP Singh ji,

Here is another school of thoughts:

To avoid any confusion that Shivling is indeed Shiva's body part, they could have attached Shiva's remaining body with this part but they didn't; which means (henceforth, I am following your logic) the assumption that the object in question is indeed Shiva's body part appears an afterthought, purportedly perpetuated by some nasty people to downgrade the Hindu mythology. :D
This could also be a part of attempts by the missionaries to attract/convert unsuspected Hindus to other religions. These nasty people are the converters of highest order. They are still living in the days of Crusaders. :)

[VirJ]

Common sense suggests that there would be Brahma-Lingam as Brahma is supposed to be the creator of universe (and hence life). Any thoughts?

Its already mentioned that Shiv is Maha shiv, Maha shakti hence we celebrate Mahashivratri. Bhrama and Vishnu are created by/part of Shiv shambu himself. Moreover Bhrama was cursed that he would never be worshiped.

[VirJ]

This is as per Shiv puran. There are other who thinks Vishnu is ultimate. They think Shiva is demi god and not ultimate. However Vishnu can be seen as worshipping shiva and shiva as worshippping Vishnu. Whatever you say they both are form of GOD. Ahmedi believes that krishna (and thus Vishnu) was a prophet(or son of GOD) like Jesus. Some similar things are there in Christinity(trinity) as well. It was islam which said GOD has no form and cannot reproduce like us and hence can have no son/daughter and wife. They emphasized on ONE GOD who is shapeless and cannot be described or pictured.

The crux is there are 3 sorts of people :
1 Who believe in GOD.
2.Who dont believe in GOD.
3.Who are confused

Those who believe in GOD worship it in diff forms, shapes, way and those who claim their way of worshipping is superior to others are only ignorant and should be ignored. A man should be free to choose his own path. If followed sincerly and honestly they all are great and lead to one destination that is param bhram.


Whatever you believe, its quite clear that whoever follow shivpuran or those who worship Shiva, for them this has a very deep meaning and shouldn't be ridiculed. I said our civilisation is richer because it says "apar dharm means good karmas with sattvic motivation where a person is devoted to God in a conventional manner, which means a general faith in all the forms of God. Such good karmas pacify the mind of the doer in the existing life" People has, in history, often attacked foreign thoughts, ways and religions. To me such people cannot be true follower of GOD which they claim to be. The people who dont understand their religion or who are ignorant ultimately get converted. Some also get converted for money or by sword.


Now, as the OP has requested lets go back to GBLT etc. God can be discussed some where else.

[Shibani]

“I m sure 99% of jatnis think the same way.”
The reason for me to come forward and respond to your call out to so call Jatnis is because I can relate to you at a few platforms:
First is just like yourself I am a mother.
Secondly academically I have completed a post grad degree (although it doesn't matter)
Third just like you I am living overseas.
I responded to your first response in the tread as well.
My prespective tough in regards to GLBT is different to yours. I concur with Anjuoo’s response it is your attitude that allows you to respect people in general and accept the differences/ deviants, before you weigh the evidences. Right? to the thread. I understand we all have to live with the morals laid down by the society but this society is evolving all the time, therefore reminding everyone to evolve and change. Living up to the society and morals is a hard task therefore I would rather choose my own path diligently and thoughtfully and keep my thought process open to adopt a change worth accepting.
Having said that I am endeavouring to raise a good human being. I will not be very concerned with his choice of partner till the time its a human being but I will be very concerned if he fails to treat his partner respectfully. I will not accept at any cost a son that is disrespecting of any human or living kind. If I achieve that I will be the happiest mother.
I am not going to burden him with anymore expectation. :)

[vicky84]

Thanks Atish for sharing the information.
पर भाई मैंने इन अन्ध्विशासी और ठग पुजारियां की बात पै विश्वास सा न हो रह्या. और छानबीन करण की जरूरत सै, कदे ये झूठ बोल रे हों. लाग्या रह.


Itni gehri jaanch padtaal ke liye kaafi samay chahiye..I mean aadha adhoora Gyan baatna sahi nahi hoga...But yes..I am in the same boat. I have the same perception as you have about these Pakhandi Pujaris who are running their businesses to fool people. And also trend is shifting from superstitious thinking to logical and scientific reasoning.

[singhvp]

Nonetheless scientifically speaking, the 'benefits' of going to temples for worshiping Shiva (Lingam or not) in contemporary world include:

A) best scenario: Among the crowd, you see a beautiful girl (and vice-versa); certain hormones play their roles, you fall in love and get married or get a gf. Happy ending.

In sync. with you. The probable scenario is, perhaps, supported by the fact that the magnetic fields are active in religious shrines too and the radioactive waves emitted by our eyes in such gatherings may impact the secretion of love hormones reminding us, especially the boys and girls, of Shiva and Parvati saga. Those who go to temple/shrine with this objective cannot be considered as superstitious and I am sure their act of doing so is as pious as the love of Shiva and Parvati.

I liked your reply.

[singhvp]

VP Singh ji,

Here is another school of thoughts:

To avoid any confusion that Shivling is indeed Shiva's body part, they could have attached Shiva's remaining body with this part but they didn't; which means (henceforth, I am following your logic) the assumption that the object in question is indeed Shiva's body part appears an afterthought, purportedly perpetuated by some nasty people to downgrade the Hindu mythology. :D
This could also be a part of attempts by the missionaries to attract/convert unsuspected Hindus to other religions. These nasty people are the converters of highest order. They are still living in the days of Crusaders. :)

I agree with you, Sunil. The theory to downgrade Hindu mythology cannot be ruled out. Other religious missionaries are NOT less orthodox and nasty.

[vdhillon]

1. Respected Sir, I did NOT dismissed your (!) theory. Since every poster in this thread had assumed (!!) Shiv Ling as 'Phallus', I just pointed out that this might NOT be the case.

2. I would not accept or reject Hindu mythology written by idle (btw if they were writing, it means they were not Idle.. :D) Brahmins. After all it is mythology.

3. Well, scientific reasons would outrightly reject the whole concept of any kind of rituals/worshiping and associated superstitions.

Nonetheless scientifically speaking, the 'benefits' of going to temples for worshiping Shiva (Lingam or not) in contemporary world include:

A) best scenario: Among the crowd, you see a beautiful girl (and vice-versa); certain hormones play their roles, you fall in love and get married or get a gf. Happy ending.

OR

B) In worst case: As a part of crowd, you breath the air contaminated by sick (literal) (wo)men; you too get sick and thanks to recklessness by doctors, you get really sick and DIE... which is doubly-ironic [because Shiva is supposed to be the destroyer and he did his job to the perfection even though death was not something you wished for.]


P.S. Is it not strange that Shiva whom Hindu mythology paints as the "[I]destroyer of the universe" is associated with evolution-of-life/birth/conceive (if the shiva-lingam-is-the-phallus theory is correct)?
Common sense suggests that there would be Brahma-Lingam as Brahma is supposed to be the creator of universe (and hence life). Any thoughts?

lol Sunill, nicely put in a humorous manner. ThreadYou put the serious points across in a funny manner. We can do more with such posts, seeng aada aada ke dukhi ho liye ... lol

When I raised the Shiv-Lingam, it was to demonstrate so-called promiscuity does exist in jat Samaj and we should not label promiscuity. Detailed Discussion on Shiv-Lingam and sex-starved creator of such a symbol are probably topic for another thread. Lets get back to GLBT Please.

[rinkusheoran]

[COLOR=blue]F. What is Your Intent to Question My Presence on JL or My "So Called' Taboo Posts? - जिस तरा तू आया, नु इ में आया, भाई ना में ठेकेदार ना तू, सही बात से क नहीं ;)
Whats wrong in me joining JL or discussing taboo topic on JL?
Are you questioning my right to chose to join JL or my right to freedom or expression?
Bhai, I do not get you, please enlighten me as to the intent of your question.


First of all let me tell you that you are very smart with articulation.

App bilkul sahi na aap thekedar ho aur na main.
Mera intent sawal ye tha , Jatland pe aate ho aur fir ye bhi kahte ho ki hume jatiwad( not explicitly i mean that) bhi nahi karna chahiye. Filhal mujhe aap issi caregory mein lagte ho so carry on please.

Kahin maine padha tha
"jaisa dekhogey chitar vaisa hoga charitat and jaisa khaogey ann vaisa hoga mann" N for you i think both have changed so totally in synch with you.

Bhai aap in genes ki maa behan karo and apne studies ko sahi mano.

Meri ideology to byah bhi pani jati mein karne ki hai and wahi karunga.

Bhai Tune naya naya likhna shuru kiya hai ye sab topic ki pahle bahut maa behan ho chuki hai tu laga rhaa hai...all the very best to you for this.

Nothing personnel.

[vdhillon]

Yeah, please create another thread.

Those who are so inclined can do so. As of today, I am disinterested :)

Bhai, Why not create a thread, which Non-Mod is the best Mod to crate such a thread <toinkz> <toinkz>

[akshaymalik84]

Those who are so inclined can do so. As of today, I am disinterested :)

Bhai, Why not create a thread, which Non-Mod is the best Mod to crate such a thread <toinkz> <toinkz>

Everyone knows who is more inclined.

I already know that who is best Non-Mod to crate such a thread.:rock

[vdhillon]

Everyone knows who is more inclined.

I already know that who is best Non-Mod to crate such a thread.:rock

Thread pe thread "me lord" ...

Btw, who deleted your Thread? I personally thought it was hilarious. So what if people on the list did not want to be MODs, i do not think they (me included) object or take offence to the thread. We need more humor.

MODs, please restore Akshay's thread. I am hoping people will respond in jest and not seriously.

[akshaymalik84]

Thread pe thread "me lord" ...

Btw, who deleted your Thread? I personally thought it was hilarious. So what if people on the list did not want to be MODs, i do not think they (me included) object or take offence to the thread. We need more humor.

MODs, please restore Akshay's thread. I am hoping people will respond in jest and not seriously.

I don't care who deleted my thread and it does not matter. I never complain to mods everytime my post or thread is deleted. Mods do what they feel is good for JL. Yes it was hilarious....i put your name in there.

I started that thread in light mode not to offend anyone.

[vdhillon]

I don't care who deleted my thread and it does not matter. I never complain to mods everytime my post or thread is deleted. Mods do what they feel is good for JL. Yes it was hilarious....i put your name in there.

I started that thread in light mode not to offend anyone.

Too bad we lost the opportunity to get few laughs out of that thread.

There is an avenue, for people to slam MODs but no avenue to vent it about fellow members. Those I was one of the potential punch bag, I still liked the thread for its potential for humor.

[vdhillon]

App bilkul sahi na aap thekedar ho aur na main. Mera intent sawal ye tha, Jatland pe aate ho aur fir ye bhi kahte ho ki hume jatiwad (not explicitly i mean that) bhi nahi karna chahiye.
Thanks for posting the interesting question above about being a JL member yet not casteist. your question did add value as it helped carry the discussion forward.

Why I am on JL if I am against castism.
Firstly, To learn about and take pride in our heritage does not make us casteist, as long as it does not come at the expense of others and does not gives us false sense of casteist superiority. Nothing wrong in me being proud of being Jat or saying "jats are great people" but it will be wrong for me to say that "ONLY JATS" are great and all others are inferior. I can be proud of my heritage, yet not run others down, be respectful to other communities and engage them at par with equal respect without being dogmatic.

Secondly, caste is one of many things we use to define our identities e.g. Caste, nationality, religion, humanity, survivability, etc. Different people assign different weight to these factors to define their identity, no right or wrong allocations there, just different. This subconscious allocation of weightage also changes with time as we evolve with age, maturity, exposer, circumstances, etc. Caste for me is just one of many things that define my identity and it has lower weightage for me compared to other factors.

More in details here on post #36 http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?30173-Non-jat-girls-married-to-jat-guys...-do-you-consider-them-Jatnis&p=257452#post257452

Lastly, I copied this from someone's FB status, this can be easily applied to doing various thing yet be jat, also can be applied to advocate why arent we more tolerant and supportive to GLBT. "Your car is Japanese. Your pizza is Italian. Your beer is (might be) German.Your wine is Spanish. Your democracy is Greek. Your coffee is Brazilian. Your tea is Chinese. Your watch is Swiss. Your fashion is French. Your shirt is Indian. Your shoes are Thai. Your radio is Korean.... Your vodka is Russian. And you complain about your neighbor being an immigrant (or not Jat-enough or GLBT)? Copy this if you are against racism."

(PS: वोह ठेकेदार वाली बात एस लिए लिख दी थि की इक बार मुझे लगा की आप यह प्रशन उठा रहे हैं की मुझे JL पर होने का हक नहीं है. सच्चाई ये है की थोडा खटका, लेकिन बुरा नहीं लगा, इस लिए क्लेअर कर रहा हूँ सब के सामने. शायद मुझे गलत महसूस हुआ, तोह फिर दुबारा से झमा परार्थी हूँ. शायद मुझे बात और अच्छे ढंग से कह देनी चाही ये थी. लेकिन अगर भाई तन्ने इस बात पे प्रशन किया है की मुझे यहाँ होने का क्या हक है तोह ये गलत है. भूल चुक माफ़ भाई)


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Filhal mujhe aap issi caregory mein lagte ho so carry on please.
Bhai, please elaborate. I did not completely understand you. Which category you are branding me in to? is it good? or bad? Are you encouraging? or are you discouraging? I am willing to listen and be discouraged based on evidence-backed reasoning, I am not अड़ियल टटू :)


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kahin maine padha tha, "jaisa dekhogey chitar vaisa hoga charitat and jaisa khaogey ann vaisa hoga mann" N for you i think both have changed so totally in synch with you.
Bhai, I am taking your statement in a positive light, please correct me if my interpretation is wrong. To me, you mean to say, environment and exposer etc influence us, our thinking and attitude. I agree with your statement. I use to be a dogmatic and conservative person and I gradually evolved into more progressive and liberal person due to exposer and my willingness to be open to evidence-based reasoning. I am just confirming your statement with my personal example :)


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bhai aap in genes ki maa behan karo and apne studies ko sahi mano. Meri ideology to byah bhi pani jati mein karne ki hai and wahi karunga.
Bhai, never say never, cuz we evolve with time. Kisi se bhi biyah kar, bhai tu razi rehna chahiye, hamari duwayen tere saath se. Ees baat pe tere ko eek gana dedicate kiya hai http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Gny2R18kUw (Jat ke pasand aagi, eeb tu jatno ho li)

"Jat Ke Ayi, Jatni Kehlayi" - jats have been practicing it for centuries (personally, it does not matter to me what they consider themselves, its up to individual to decide). Do not go by my views, go with evidence. Check out Ravi's post 34, my post 44 and 46 on the following thread"
http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?30173-Non-jat-girls-married-to-jat-guys...-do-you-consider-them-Jatnis


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bhai Tune naya naya likhna shuru kiya hai ye sab topic ki pahle bahut maa behan ho chuki hai tu laga rhaa hai...all the very best to you for this.
As long as these issues remain in the society, discussion will continue. If not by you or me then by others. Its a right thing to do. I do agree, if you have been part of it then too long then we may run the risk of intellectual-fatigue.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nothing personnel.
Of course, no offence taken. I completely understand your viewpoint and positive intent. I took your post in a positive light. भाई अड़े ऐकले सींग तुडान थोड़े ए न आये सा...here to learn and network in fun manner :)

Tu senti na ho ... kacche kaat आर यो गाना सुन ;) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f468Ox_v2HU

[ritu]

yes shibani,you are doing a gud job as a mother and so i am.I am very proud and happy as a mother.and please do not bring the things i have told in reply to someone else posts. I had to mention only after i was told the definition of offspring .I m on this forum for almost 6 yrs and ppl know how many times i have boasted about my qualification.i do not remember mentioning it even once.coming to anjoos thoughts and views she respects me a lot like a elder sister.i m happy with my perspective and totally respect your disagreement .I will do what we think is best for our child . QUOTE=Shibani;257510]“I m sure 99% of jatnis think the same way.”
The reason for me to come forward and respond to your call out to so call Jatnis is because I can relate to you at a few platforms:
First is just like yourself I am a mother.
Secondly academically I have completed a post grad degree (although it doesn't matter)
Third just like you I am living overseas.
I responded to your first response in the tread as well.
My prespective tough in regards to GLBT is different to yours. I concur with Anjuoo’s response it is your attitude that allows you to respect people in general and accept the differences/ deviants, before you weigh the evidences. Right? to the thread. I understand we all have to live with the morals laid down by the society but this society is evolving all the time, therefore reminding everyone to evolve and change. Living up to the society and morals is a hard task therefore I would rather choose my own path diligently and thoughtfully and keep my thought process open to adopt a change worth accepting.
Having said that I am endeavouring to raise a good human being. I will not be very concerned with his choice of partner till the time its a human being but I will be very concerned if he fails to treat his partner respectfully. I will not accept at any cost a son that is disrespecting of any human or living kind. If I achieve that I will be the happiest mother.
I am not going to burden him with anymore expectation. :)[/QUOTE]

[annch]

Shibani ji,

Thank you for supporting my comment. Just a small disclaimer: My comment about the right attitude was meant for everyone, including myself....

To a large extent, I would agree with Ritu Di's comments. I am sure that initial reaction of every parent is that of a shock when they discover their child is a G/L/B/T. Sooner or later, they do come to terms with it and accept it, still no parent (however liberal) would be prepared for that kind of discovery.Wouldn't you agree?

BTW, you have a very endearing quality of idealism...:)....

Regards

yes shibani,you are doing a gud job as a mother and so i am.I am very proud and happy as a mother.and please do not bring the things i have told in reply to someone else posts. I had to mention only after i was told the definition of offspring .I m on this forum for almost 6 yrs and ppl know how many times i have boasted about my qualification.i do not remember mentioning it even once.coming to anjoos thoughts and views she respects me a lot like a elder sister.i m happy with my perspective and totally respect your disagreement .I will do what we think is best for our child . QUOTE=Shibani;257510]“I m sure 99% of jatnis think the same way.”
The reason for me to come forward and respond to your call out to so call Jatnis is because I can relate to you at a few platforms:
First is just like yourself I am a mother.
Secondly academically I have completed a post grad degree (although it doesn't matter)
Third just like you I am living overseas.
I responded to your first response in the tread as well.
My prespective tough in regards to GLBT is different to yours. I concur with Anjuoo’s response it is your attitude that allows you to respect people in general and accept the differences/ deviants, before you weigh the evidences. Right? to the thread. I understand we all have to live with the morals laid down by the society but this society is evolving all the time, therefore reminding everyone to evolve and change. Living up to the society and morals is a hard task therefore I would rather choose my own path diligently and thoughtfully and keep my thought process open to adopt a change worth accepting.
Having said that I am endeavouring to raise a good human being. I will not be very concerned with his choice of partner till the time its a human being but I will be very concerned if he fails to treat his partner respectfully. I will not accept at any cost a son that is disrespecting of any human or living kind. If I achieve that I will be the happiest mother.
I am not going to burden him with anymore expectation. :)[/QUOTE]

[rinkusheoran]

ye lo

http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?27882-Delhi-High-Court-legalizes-homosexuality

[Saharan1628]

Ram Ram Ji....
What my views are that many of us including me haven't had someone around us indulging in gay-les relationship....dhillon sir has gay friends,so he can understand them and can feel that they are not mental cases...for rest of us its still an aberrant behaviour
I,myself, can't think of marrying in same sex and i wish the same for my progeny..

[riyaa]

Everybody has different opinions for life..let them live, and BTW it depends on the environment in they bought up and sometimes its natural also..Everybody is practical now a days, and Its a bitter truth that many of us adopted western culture in which no relation value..

[Dagar25]

Ram Ram Ji....
What my views are that many of us including me haven't had someone around us indulging in gay-les relationship....dhillon sir has gay friends,so he can understand them and can feel that they are not mental cases...for rest of us its still an aberrant behaviour
I,myself, can't think of marrying in same sex and i wish the same for my progeny..



ram ram bhai ram ram.....aaj america ke jhande naa chapwav ke.....yaaa chapne band hoge...mai teri signature lane ke baare me kah rahaa su.

[amankadian]

Unki jarurt pe depand or passand pe depand karta hai unhe life main kya chaiye

Ismain burai hi kya hai:rock

[drkarminder]

as stated by mr.v dhillon that gayism happened because of genetic problem that is completely unauthentic nd unproved statement
no gene in human .D.N.A express the character of gayism....if anybody here a has good knowledge of science should understand the definition of species nor natual sex:
"its states that intercourse if happens between two members should resullt in an offspring".
or species definition" is a creature that can interbreed under natural condition".

a man and a man, a women d women by intercourse cant produce offspring...so even nature say that homosexuality is not natural.
HOMOSEXUALITY HAS EVOLVED BECAUSE OF PEOPLES OWN INTEREST ND IN MOST OF CASES IS A RESULT OF CHILD ABUSE.

a homosexual person is always distracted from natural course becuase of sm underlying problem that should be identified nd accordingly proper counselling nd rehabilitation should be done.
REMEMBER THAT NODODY IS BORN HOMOSEXUAL ND EVERYBODY IS BORN HETEROSEXUAL.
if this problem cant be identified nd treated ..a day will come when human species will be in danger..
i just wnt to know who support homosexuality ....wt will be ur reaction when ur only son will come nd say to u..that papa i want to marry a boy ...that day u will realize that u supported a wrong thing...because that will be end of ur race and extinction of ur name from human species...nd that will be realy horrible...

[amankadian]

if any girl interested in Girls to uski shaadi usse hi honi chaiye .........kyuki ager uski shadi kisi ladke se hogi to main nhi manta ki wo kuch din chal payyegi
same with boys ....................Gay kabi ek ladki ke sath kush nhi rhe sakta na hi ek ladki ko rhak sakta hai.

[vicky84]

Centre opposes decriminalisation of homosexuality in SC


NEW DELHI: The Centre on Thursday opposed dilution of Section 377 (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/topic/Section-377)
of the Indian Penal Code (IPC) by Delhi high court, which decriminalised sexual acts, in private, between consenting adults and urged the Supreme Court (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/topic/Supreme-Court)
to reverse the landmark ruling. The UPA government told the Supreme Court that the HC had erred because a vast section of the Indian society still considered homosexuality (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/topic/homosexuality)
immoral.

Gay sex "is highly immoral and against the social order," additional solicitor general PP Malhotra, who is representing the home ministry, told the apex court.

He added that it was "against nature and spreads HIV."

The ministry said it favoured the ban staying in place in order to prevent child abuse and because Indian society was largely against homosexuality according to a survey by the Law Commission, Malhotra explained. "Laws can't run separately from society and the morals of the time," he said.Hence, it appealed that the provision be retained in full to reflect the society's views. Though the Centre had not appealed against the judgement, the ministry of Home affairs came out strongly against the dilution of Section 377.When the Supreme Court asked who decided what was immoral, the Union government said society did so and argued that the Indian laws could not but reflect the views of its society. The government said the HC considered only judgements of foreign countries where homosexuality may not be resented.

"Our moral and social values are different from other countries and we cannot be guided by them,' the home ministry told the court.

The Delhi high court (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/topic/Delhi-high-court)
on July 2, 2009, had delivered a historic judgement to amend a 149-year-old colonial-era law - Section 377 of the IPC - and decriminalise private consensual sex between adults of the same sex. The judgment was seen as the biggest victory yet for gay rights.

The two judge bench had held: "If there is one constitutional tenet that can be said to be underlying theme of the Indian Constitution, it is that of 'inclusiveness'. This Court believes that Indian Constitution reflects this value deeply ingrained in Indian society, nurtured over several generations. The inclusiveness that Indian society traditionally displayed, literally in every aspect of life, is manifest in recognising a role in society for everyone. Those perceived by the majority as "deviants' or 'different' are not on that score excluded or ostracised.

Where society can display inclusiveness and understanding, such persons can be assured of a life of dignity and non-discrimination. This was the 'spirit behind the Resolution' of which Nehru spoke so passionately. In our view, Indian Constitutional law does not permit the statutory criminal law to be held captive by the popular misconceptions of who the LGBTs are. It cannot be forgotten that discrimination is antithesis of equality and that it is the recognition of equality which will foster the dignity of every individual."

[mpaweria]

I am unable to understand where we are going and planning to reach.How much time we are having to waste for such type of worthless topic.Man & Women are best example of GOD'S creation and he put sex in between those for continuation of human bodies.Using sex for pleasure is job of Not working people like PrithviRaj Chauhan after him only we faced 1000 years of Ghulami ( Independence).
Geniune and working people only does sex for giving birth to new jeev, rest of time they are spending their time in some constructive issues. I never saw my dadaji at home after my birth. He used to stay at Gher ( In Village House and Gher are different places) But now a days people are getting money without efforts and unable to sleep.This generation is not working hard and you will found them in house only. In villages also you will find all people at home only and sleeping.Such type of people only required Liquor, pills or sex to sleep.
Plus now a days Call center culture is running in our society and boys & girls are earning good handsome money with high stress.After returning home their body is not too much tired but their brain asked some pleasure and those generation is using such tactics to relieve their stresses.
I don't want to allobtrate this topic much becuase talking on this topic unneccassry hurts somebody.
But only my suggestion to our society is that be like you born and follow rule of nature. IF YOU HARM NATURE IT WILL ALSO HARM YOU NOT IMMEDIATELY BUT DEFINATELY.

[urmiladuhan]

@Vipin: Vipin what does "shiv ling" symbolizes? Is it some body part of Shiv or something else? If it symbolizes a body part then what is the point in worshiping it. Isn't it better to worship the entire statue of the deity instead of just one body part, if beneficial at all.

As per historical evidence, shiv ling cannot be body part as in early history, there were faces of deities sculpted on it.

Here are some photos of shivlings from history with deity faces on it.
http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?36568-Cultural-changes-from-history-upto-present-times

[singhvp]

As per historical evidence, shiv ling cannot be body part as in early history, there were faces of deities sculpted on it.

Urmila Ji, if it is not a body part then what it is after all? What historical significance does this unique figure have, warranting its idolization. Can you throw some light on the genesis of this worshiping. I do not see any scientific reasoning in blindly maintaining certain traditions of idol worship.

[dhanthaakar]

I believe most of us are not hostile towards LGT community.

That said, wherever it has become socially the norm and increasing Ie Western Europe America what you find is Population starts decreasing. In UK bisexual relationships between women are now seen as the norm meaning Women can and will say " we no longer need men" vica versa for males.

You do not notice in 1 generation, but as two three decades pass you see Birth rates drop that marks the decline of a Civilisation.

So all in all do what you want. We do not wish harm or pain to anyones sexuality, but be mindful of the World you live in.

That is why Russians and East Europeans are shown as violently opposing LGT, its not out of hatred. Its because they know whats happening in America and W Europe will eventually decline their civilisations. Just like Jaats Jatts were frontier tribal societies facing invaders, the East Europeans have faced similar situations which makes them Tribal like us.

[dndeswal]

As per historical evidence, shiv ling cannot be body part as in early history, there were faces of deities sculpted on it.


Notwithstanding your opinion, I think there was no need to revive this thread since it contains a controversial topic, unfit for Indian society.


.

[urmiladuhan]

Perhaps ShivLing was used as a spiritual symbol to indicate the existence of God, who perhaps is not of a human form. Some religious practices world over still do believe that god is beyond human form and is a spiritual being. It is common practice among some meditators to remember god without having to have an idol in front of them.



Urmila Ji, if it is not a body part then what it is after all? What historical significance does this unique figure have, warranting its idolization. Can you throw some light on the genesis of this worshiping. I do not see any scientific reasoning in blindly maintaining certain traditions of idol worship.

[urmiladuhan]

Notwithstanding your opinion, I think there was no need to revive this thread since it contains a controversial topic, unfit for Indian society.


.
Is that a good way to treat your fellow people?

[dhanthaakar]

i believe indians should face up to the Reality however controversial it is. Then the public have the power to steer it into the right direction.

The more its pushed under the carpet will just give it underground air to breathe. The Bollywood bhaman bhania media will in future use it as a way to corrode ancient civilisations. before they take up the opportunity as Western media has its better we deal with it.

[singhvp]

I think there is no harm in discussing any thing under the sun, which is also in consonance with the JL policy. Unless we have a debate on any topic, how will it be established whether it is good or bad for society. Instead of pushing the dirt under the carpet, one must try to have it removed altogether. I, think, the problem under discussion is a sick reality and it would be imprudent to assume that the modern Jat society can be inoculated against this by not discussing. Majority of us on JL (assuming there could be some adolescents also), are aware of this evil. Media has been carrying news of same-sex marriages in some countries. So, we must spread awareness against this unnatural and shameful practice which is spreading like a wildfire in some societies in the name of modernity.

[dhanthaakar]

Jats in Pakistan have lost their identity. jats in indian Punjab have had their Spiritual heritage transplanted by british into Protestant Colonial SGPC package.

Jats to the East are yet untouched. It is highly important we take care to nurture our ancient values. Do not be swayed by INC or the BJP. Jats need to gaurd their own heritage and way of life.

but in such a way where the upcoming Youth are not forced but out of their heart love what our ancestors gave lived and died for.

[VirJ]

Urmila Ji, if it is not a body part then what it is after all? What historical significance does this unique figure have, warranting its idolization. Can you throw some light on the genesis of this worshiping. I do not see any scientific reasoning in blindly maintaining certain traditions of idol worship.

You need to read Shiv puran to understand the meaning of Lingam. This is not the thread to discuss this but certainly its meaning is much deeper than what you think. You dont need /have to follow this. But for those who do follow, perhaps, there are enough reason and not every belief and practise of humans is guided by science.

[urmiladuhan]

You need to read Shiv puran to understand the meaning of Lingam. This is not the thread to discuss this but certainly its meaning is much deeper than what you think. You dont need /have to follow this. But for those who do follow, perhaps, there are enough reason and not every belief and practise of humans is guided by science.

When was shiv Puranas written and by whom? (Since you are recommending reading it).

Perhaps you are not aware of the texts on Shiva older than what you mention. The text you recommend are based on these older texts on Shiva.

[VirJ]

When was shiv Puranas written and by whom? (Since you are recommending reading it).

Perhaps you are not aware of the texts on Shiva older than what you mention. The text you recommend are based on these older texts on Shiva.


OK If you knew why ask? By the way I didnt recommend anything to you.

I may not know lot of things and the beauty of meaningful debates is that you learn something everything every day. I just suggested that if someone is really interested in Lingum Shiv Puran can guide. If you have more books to share why not mention them for reader's benifit rather than picking up on my knowledge.

[urmiladuhan]

VirJ, please do not take offence as no dis respect of any kind was intended on my part. I find your posts very meaningful and useful. Kindly do not de bar me from them :)

Kind regards,

Urmila.




OK If you knew why ask? By the way I didnt recommend anything to you.

I may not know lot of things and the beauty of meaningful debates is that you learn something everything every day. I just suggested that if someone is really interested in Lingum Shiv Puran can guide. If you have more books to share why not mention them for reader's benifit rather than picking up on my knowledge.

[VirJ]

I didn't take any offence but I didn't understand the intention behind your question.

All Good.

[rekhasmriti]

I could not believe it that we have such Controversial Thread on JL . Gosh we are good .

Sharing my opinion - Personal Choice .....do whatever one feels .

Feel free to call me hypocrite......just the thought of some loved one of mine go that way ......Would tear my Heart away .....I would die Xilliion times every moment .

[inderjeetsngh09]

I would say that we as a society should stand by the homosexuality as this might help us to fight against some considerable facts such as- safety of women for up to some extent, control on reproduction since gay men obviously cannot produce offspring of their own, and lesbians do require a male donor, they are beneficial to society by not producing more children to an already overpopulated world, an exultant, peaceful world with their own love ones and there will not be any war in b/w Indo-Pak-)

Pls excuse me if I would've hurt anyone’s emotions, sensibility, and individuality!

Do whatever you feel right for yourself as we are no one to stop!

[drkarminder]

In the name of rights and freedom people are forgetting nature's law or what say natures course. Nature follows the best evolution in which human was developed in to male and female and gave this species power to continue the race.

Homsexuality gave us the most deadly virus HIV that make u fall pray to evry disease,even a common cold will kill u. Can u name any disease that developed because of intercourse between man and women.No because it has got nature approval.
Nature gave human species best adaptation that is required. Appendix,wisom teeth, hairs are found absent in many humans and will be copletely absent in futur human because it is not required for human needs now. Homosexuality is practiced from centurie but nature has not changed anything in human for its need. This is the best way to undersand human mistake.
As I said in my previous post homosexuality developed because of peoples own interest that not necessarily be right. If u call homosexuality a right of individual,then I will demand Evrything whether right or wrong as individual's right. Then what's law for.

People supporting homosexuality are not looking its future effect on human race.I'm my opinion I see homosexuality among the factors that will carry human species to extinction

Homosexuality is inhuman and unnatural. These kind of individual interests should be strongly discouraged.

[rekhasmriti]

"Homsexuality gave us the most deadly virus HIV"

I beg to differ .

[swaich]

Homsexuality gave us the most deadly virus HIV that make u fall pray to evry disease,even a common cold will kill u..

Your personal views about homosexuality aside, being a medical profesional, you should be more aware about the origins of the HIV virus. The virus came from apes into humans in the early 20th century. It was noticed first among gay men and drug users and hence the misconception about its origins.

Do read the following scholarly article.

Origins of HIV and the AIDS Pandemic (http://perspectivesinmedicine.cshlp.org/content/1/1/a006841)

[singhvp]

You need to read Shiv puran to understand the meaning of Lingam. This is not the thread to discuss this but certainly its meaning is much deeper than what you think. You dont need /have to follow this. But for those who do follow, perhaps, there are enough reason and not every belief and practise of humans is guided by science.

Respected Sir,

I have always been your humble student and will continue to be so. Time permitting, would like to have a cursory glance at the book recommended by you. But, I do not know why I have an inkling that it would be a sheer waste of time. I have a rough idea of this mythological epic. In my assessment, it is a bunch of lies and make-believe stories constructed by the idle Brahmins. But sir, with due regard to you, still I would go by your advice.


Warm regards

[VirJ]

Respected Sir,

I have always been your humble student and will continue to be so. Time permitting, would like to have a cursory glance at the book recommended by you. But, I do not know why I have an inkling that it would be a sheer waste of time. I have a rough idea of this mythological epic. In my assessment, it is a bunch of lies and make-believe stories constructed by the idle Brahmins. But sir, with due regard to you, still I would go by your advice.


Warm regards

Tau,

If you are my student then I am bit disappointed with you. I told you above that if you want to understand lingum you can refer to that book. However as usual if your intention is to make fun of Lingam then it's a different story.

Whether Shiv puran, Bible, Kuran are bunch of lies or not, I don't know but there are enough people who believe in them. Your assessment could be wrong as well Tau.

[singhvp]

Tau,

If you are my student then I am bit disappointed with you. I told you above that if you want to understand lingum you can refer to that book. However as usual if your intention is to make fun of Lingam then it's a different story.

Whether Shiv puran, Bible, Kuran are bunch of lies or not, I don't know but there are enough people who believe in them. Your assessment could be wrong as well Tau.

Sir,

My apologies for disappointing you. Sir, I feel highly enlightened by the floodlight of the divine knowledge of your Exalted Highness.

लेकिन सर, कहावत है, "पंचों की राय सर माथे पर परनाला वहीँ गिरेगा" . Unless you are able to give any concrete and scientific evidence of the veracity of this 'Holy Book', I am constrained not to believe it.

With highest ever regards

Your student

[singhvp]

virj, please do not take offence as no dis respect of any kind was intended on my part. I find your posts very meaningful and useful. Kindly do not de bar me from them :)

kind regards,

urmila.

जी बिल्क़ुल सही कहया आपने, गुरु जी की सारी पोस्ट ज्ञान तैं न्यू लदी पड़ी सैं ज्युकर नवम्बर के महीने में अमरुद का पेड़ फलां तै लद ज्याया करै i

[VirJ]

Sir,

My apologies for disappointing you. Sir, I feel highly enlightened by the floodlight of the divine knowledge of your Exalted Highness.

लेकिन सर, कहावत है, "पंचों की राय सर माथे पर परनाला वहीँ गिरेगा" . Unless you are able to give any concrete and scientific evidence of the veracity of this 'Holy Book', I am constrained not to believe it.

With highest ever regards

Your student


Tau Ji (with all Due Respect), you asked Urmila Ji “Urmila Ji, if it is not a body part then what it is after all?”

I interpreted it as your quest of knowing what is it which they worship a body part or something else. Tau Ji it represent Eternal World, “Light”, “Origin of Life”.

Its meaning is much deeper and Shiv Puran can guide you if you are really interested. I myself is not an expert on this. It is same as if someone wants to understand the meaning of ‘cross’ they should refer to Bible to understand what this symbol mean and for someone wanted to understand why Muslim wear loose clothes and Burka, Kuran can provide the answer.

Now Whether Shiv Puran is true or not or for that matter whether Shiv existed or not is all together a different question. But to understand why Shiv Lingam is worshipped and what does it symbolize we need to understand more about Shiv Shankar.

The thread is not meant to discuss this but can happily discuss with you or anyone else in the relevant thread.

[DrRajpalSingh]

In the name of rights and freedom people are forgetting nature's law or what say natures course. Nature follows the best evolution in which human was developed in to male and female and gave this species power to continue the race.

Homsexuality gave us the most deadly virus HIV that make u fall pray to evry disease,even a common cold will kill u. Can u name any disease that developed because of intercourse between man and women.No because it has got nature approval.
Nature gave human species best adaptation that is required. Appendix,wisom teeth, hairs are found absent in many humans and will be copletely absent in futur human because it is not required for human needs now. Homosexuality is practiced from centurie but nature has not changed anything in human for its need. This is the best way to undersand human mistake.
As I said in my previous post homosexuality developed because of peoples own interest that not necessarily be right. If u call homosexuality a right of individual,then I will demand Evrything whether right or wrong as individual's right. Then what's law for.

People supporting homosexuality are not looking its future effect on human race.I'm my opinion I see homosexuality among the factors that will carry human species to extinction

Homosexuality is inhuman and unnatural. These kind of individual interests should be strongly discouraged.

Good read !!

[drkarminder]

I know well that HIV came through rhesus monkey. I didn't discuss it as I am not talking about other species. First case reported in human was among homosexuals. Now HIV was well surviving in monkey species but who inocuated it in human species. It was homosexuality or better unnatural sex. The concern is the culprit in human not monkey.



Men who have sex with men (MSM) represent 2% of the U.S. population but more than 60% of new infections *and half of all Americans living with HIV. Rates of new HIV diagnoses among MSM in the United States are more than 44 times that of other men. Especially at risk are young MSM (ages 13-24 years), the only risk group where new infections are increasing, with a 22% increase in recent years. Young Black MSM are most affected accounting for 55% of new infections among YMSM overall.

[drkarminder]

yes shibani,you are doing a gud job as a mother and so i am.I am very proud and happy as a mother.and please do not bring the things i have told in reply to someone else posts. I had to mention only after i was told the definition of offspring .I m on this forum for almost 6 yrs and ppl know how many times i have boasted about my qualification.i do not remember mentioning it even once.coming to anjoos thoughts and views she respects me a lot like a elder sister.i m happy with my perspective and totally respect your disagreement .I will do what we think is best for our child . QUOTE=Shibani;257510]“I m sure 99% of jatnis think the same way.”
The reason for me to come forward and respond to your call out to so call Jatnis is because I can relate to you at a few platforms:
First is just like yourself I am a mother.
Secondly academically I have completed a post grad degree (although it doesn't matter)
Third just like you I am living overseas.
I responded to your first response in the tread as well.
My prespective tough in regards to GLBT is different to yours. I will not be very concerned with his choice of partner till the time its a human being but I will be very concerned if he fails to treat his partner respectfully. I will not accept at any cost a son that is disrespecting of any human or living kind. If I achieve that I will be the happiest mother.
I am not going to burden him with anymore expectation. :)[/QUOTE]


i have great sympathy for ur parenting if u actually follow the lines that you have written. u mean to say that it doesnt matter if ur son have relation with a male or female,it should only be human. then i will say its a disrespect to other species. why cant he have relation outside humans. if u are very broad minded than let it be even broader.

i dont think its shows any better of u than other people by saying that u are not concerned about ur son's partner choice. it reflect ur poor understanding of human values and a thumb down for ur guidance as a parent.

by supporting homosexuality people want to show that they stand for good cause and they r modern in thinking than people who are against this. many people express support for homosexuality just to show themselves different from others and gain publicity. but in reality they are very narrow minded and with crooked mentality who just think of today and fail to understand the cause and effect.

[singhvp]

Tau Ji (with all Due Respect), you asked Urmila Ji “Urmila Ji, if it is not a body part then what it is after all?”

I interpreted it as your quest of knowing what is it which they worship a body part or something else. Tau Ji it represent Eternal World, “Light”, “Origin of Life”.

Its meaning is much deeper and Shiv Puran can guide you if you are really interested. I myself is not an expert on this. It is same as if someone wants to understand the meaning of ‘cross’ they should refer to Bible to understand what this symbol mean and for someone wanted to understand why Muslim wear loose clothes and Burka, Kuran can provide the answer.

Now Whether Shiv Puran is true or not or for that matter whether Shiv existed or not is all together a different question. But to understand why Shiv Lingam is worshipped and what does it symbolize we need to understand more about Shiv Shankar.

The thread is not meant to discuss this but can happily discuss with you or anyone else in the relevant thread.

गुरु जी धन्यवाद I आपनै तो कुल्हड़ी मै जोहड़ भर दिया I First of all Sir, let me say that I have immense regard for all faiths, especially truly religious and faithful people like you.
मेरा अनुमान है कि क्रॉस, बुर्का और ढीले कपड़े पहनने के पीछे निम्नलिखित कारण रहे होंगे :

क्रॉस: जिंदगी के चौराहे पर खड़े आदमी को इंगित करके कहता है कि चारों रास्ते खुले हैं बन्दे ..जहाँ मर्जी जा और ऐश कर, जैसा जी में आये ओढ़ पहर, खा पी और मौज ले I

बुर्का : दुनिया के गर्म देशों से शुरुआत हुई I मकसद त्वचा और हुश्न की हिफाज़त रहा होगा क्योंकि महिलाओं की त्वचा को कुदरत ने काफी नाज़ुक बनाया है I कड़कती धूप से बचने के लिए उन दिनों anti-burn या sun cream नहीं होती थी I बाद में यह रिवाज़ बन गया होगा I

ढीले कपड़े : गर्मी के मौसम में आरामदायक होते हैं I उस ज़माने में AC और Cooler नहीं होते थे और हवा की आवाजाही के लिए ढीला लिबास अनुकूल रहा होगा I

Disclaimer : यह सिर्फ मेरा एक अंदाज़ा है और मेरे पास इसे साबित करने के लिए कोई कागज़ी सबूत और लिंक नहीं है I
सर, इसका जवाब नहीं देना, हम खामखां मैं ऑफ टॉपिक हो जायेंगे

[desijat]

Here is the reason behind the signs and symbols of religions, they were created observing the pattern.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjHk9nKUNNs

[VirJ]

गुरु जी धन्यवाद I आपनै तो कुल्हड़ी मै जोहड़ भर दिया I First of all Sir, let me say that I have immense regard for all faiths, especially truly religious and faithful people like you.
मेरा अनुमान है कि क्रॉस, बुर्का और ढीले कपड़े पहनने के पीछे निम्नलिखित कारण रहे होंगे :


Disclaimer : यह सिर्फ मेरा एक अंदाज़ा है और मेरे पास इसे साबित करने के लिए कोई कागज़ी सबूत और लिंक नहीं है I
सर, इसका जवाब नहीं देना, हम खामखां मैं ऑफ टॉपिक हो जायेंगे

ताऊ ऑफ टॉपिक तो जिब तामने शिवलिंग का जीकर करा था ज़िद ए हो गे थे. बाकी जवाब देन आला ईसा कीमे बुझा भी कोनी आपने. आपने के बेरा में कितना धार्मिक और निष्ठावान हूँ फेर भी इज़्ज़त बक्शी के लिए शुक्रिया.

[deshi-jat]

डाक्टर साब,
क्युँ खामखाँ हनुमान जी के बंदरां नै बदनाम करो सो .Rhesus macaque is the species monkeys mostly found in India subcontinent. Their name Rhesus (Rh) is associated with blood groups; Rh- negative or Rh –positive. They are not the natural host of Simian immunodeficiency virus (SIV) as they develop AIDS like symptoms when infected with SIV.


Human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) most likely have originated from African primates, which are natural hosts of Simian immunodeficiency virus (SIV) similar virus as HIV


I know well that HIV came through rhesus monkey. I didn't discuss it as I am not talking about other species. First case reported in human was among homosexuals. Now HIV was well surviving in monkey species but who inocuated it in human species. It was homosexuality or better unnatural sex. The concern is the culprit in human not monkey.



Men who have sex with men (MSM) represent 2% of the U.S. population but more than 60% of new infections *and half of all Americans living with HIV. Rates of new HIV diagnoses among MSM in the United States are more than 44 times that of other men. Especially at risk are young MSM (ages 13-24 years), the only risk group where new infections are increasing, with a 22% increase in recent years. Young Black MSM are most affected accounting for 55% of new infections among YMSM overall.

[drkarminder]

U think African primates were alive when first confirmed case of HIV was found in 1980's. U are tracing back the origin of HIV. I am talking of the infection when it was transmitted to human. U are tracing HIV in monkey species not when it was found in human

Rhesus monkey is found now who harbors HIV. Yes rh antigen is based on rhesus. I hope I am clear to u. SAIDS virus in monkey is HIV in human.

[deshi-jat]

They are very much alive even today. Chimpanzees, gorillas, baboons, etc.


U think African primates were alive when first confirmed case of HIV was found in 1980's. U are tracing back the origin of HIV. I am talking of the infection when it was transmitted to human. U are tracing HIV in monkey species not when it was found in human

Rhesus monkey is found now who harbors HIV. Yes rh antigen is based on rhesus. I hope I am clear to u.

SIVsmm in sooty mangabeys and SIVcpz in chimpanzees, are believed to have crossed the species barrier into humans, resulting in HIV-2 and HIV-1, respectively. However, if this virus infects an Asian or Indian rhesus macaque, the animal will develop simian AIDS (SAIDS).

The later stages of SIV infection turn into SAIDS, much as HIV infection turns into AIDS.

[dhanthaakar]

Jats should think about the near future.

If every other culture civilisation is baby booming and expanding outside neighbouring Jat Territories the question of land resources will arise in future which could lead to problems with neighbours especially if they make inrds.

The political Brahmin Bhania mafia in power sizes up bigger votebanks. Homosexuality in small doses will not affect any1. But if it is promoted by the Political bahman bollywood media it will create acceptance and push down birth rates. In the West the natives now have the slowest birth rates as a result of putting sexual enjoyment above raising a family. The situation starts slow and gathers pace with media.

We should also take Geo political issues around us into context. West will pull out of afghanistan.

The Taliban will re emerge again on both sides of the durrand line ( afpak border belt) as talibanisation is recognised by Senior American experts as " pashtun political grievances"..

the nutjobs will not plan to stop at Kashmir where UP sits next door with a high populaation of you knoww what. we are not racist, but remain alert. No Ghandi nehru dynasty, no bahman bjp is going to help Jats. be very careful of this relationship that has not helped any martial Tribe of North Asia other than silver its own kursi. You have only yourselves. If the fabric loosens its bad news.

If today you say we are over populated and need to reduce numbers anyway while your hostile neighbour increases. Whos going to be responsible when history repeats?

The population mantra needs to be taken by the Gov to those who breed faster first. In case it does not think 2 3 generations aheead what jats could face.

[swaich]

I know well that HIV came through rhesus monkey. I didn't discuss it as I am not talking about other species. First case reported in human was among homosexuals. Now HIV was well surviving in monkey species but who inocuated it in human species. It was homosexuality or better unnatural sex. The concern is the culprit in human not monkey.



Men who have sex with men (MSM) represent 2% of the U.S. population but more than 60% of new infections *and half of all Americans living with HIV. Rates of new HIV diagnoses among MSM in the United States are more than 44 times that of other men. Especially at risk are young MSM (ages 13-24 years), the only risk group where new infections are increasing, with a 22% increase in recent years. Young Black MSM are most affected accounting for 55% of new infections among YMSM overall.

Interesting to know gay men constitute a large % of HIV Americans. Do you have a source for that?

[urmiladuhan]

If true, it may not mean that at other places in the world there are lesser numbers. Perhaps at other places they are less likely to come out in the open for fear of persecution etc.


Interesting to know gay men constitute a large % of HIV Americans. Do you have a source for that?

[drkarminder]

Interesting to know gay men constitute a large % of HIV Americans. Do you have a source for that?
Centre for disease control and prevention. I hope you are aware of this institution.
www.cdc.gov

[drkarminder]

They are very much alive even today. Chimpanzees, gorillas, baboons, etc.

Ha ha..and what r the chances that they have direct contact with human.
And what are the chances that monkeys can have direct contact with human. Do gorillas,chimpanzees roam like monkeys roam in streets.

As I said before I am talking about the transfer of HIV to human not about origin of HIV.
Let me give u an example- like rabies virus might be originated in apes or chimpanzee but now dogs are transmitting it to human. Now u can't say that rabies in man came from apes , it came through dogs. U always talk of the immediate source but yes u trace the origin.

Now even monkeys have gone ,now the source of infection is human. Now human harbors the HIV and steps r taken to prevent HIV infection from human to human. That's why I directly told that in human it was spread by homosexuality and I didn't talk about gorillas and apes because now our concern is to limit its spread from human to human not from apes to human.
I hope I am clear now.

[swaich]

Centre for disease control and prevention. I hope you are aware of this institution.
www.cdc.gov (http://www.cdc.gov)

I am aware of this institution, but did it come out with a report/stats corroborating what you said? Its site didn't help. Just curious, that;s all.

[drkarminder]

First I wd like to ask how much time u browsed cdc website. Which section u visited and how much time u took to explore HIV section and under this subsection gay and bisexual men's health.

Please go through gay and biesexuals men's helth report and read it carefully I insist.
If u are not satisfied after that leave me a mail I will send the pdf doc.

Ad I wd be very happy if u please before putting any furher question read it thoroughly.

[swaich]

First I wd like to ask how much time u browsed cdc website. Which section u visited and how much time u took to explore HIV section and under this subsection gay and bisexual men's health.

Please go through gay and biesexuals men's helth report and read it carefully I insist.
If u are not satisfied after that leave me a mail I will send the pdf doc.

Ad I wd be very happy if u please before putting any furher question read it thoroughly.

Found it. Thanks. http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/risk/gender/msm/facts/index.html

What you mentioned was correct. Gay men do account for a large number of known HIV positive cases in the US. Apparently, anal sex has the highest risk of passing infections.

[urmiladuhan]

Is it just me or others too who find references to sex must not be mentioned as such ( as in this particular post) on this website? To me it seems more like a family type website where adolescent kids from our community may also be coming.
May I kindly request moderators to look into the matter. Thanks! :)



Found it. Thanks. http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/risk/gender/msm/facts/index.html

What you mentioned was correct. Gay men do account for a large number of known HIV positive cases in the US. Apparently, anal sex has the highest risk of passing infections.

[drkarminder]

Jaspreet bhai when we talk of homosexuality,its a well understood term for most of readers. I request you to edit your post to make it more reader friendly.