भारत और चीन कहाँ तक तुलना उचित है ।

[Ambijat]

वर्तमान राजनैतिक चर्चाओं में यह विषय अकसर आता है कि क्या भारत चीन से मुकाबला कर सकता है । चीन की अर्थव्यवस्था भारत से तीन गुना बड़ी है । वहाँ निवेश की कोई कमी नहीं है । चीन सरकार ढाँचागत परियोजनाओं में सबसे बड़ी निवेशक है । इसको देखकर पहला निष्कर्ष यही निकलता है कि भारत में ढाँचागत विकास चीन कि तुलना में अधिक पिछड़ा हुआ है । हमारी विकास दर सेवा क्षेत्र से जुड़ी हुई है, जो कि पश्चिम जगत के आर्थिक परिमाणो से निर्धारित है । इसका असर हमें देखने को मिला है । यही नहीं हम रक्षा के क्षेत्र में भी जिस प्रकार का निवेश चाह रहे हैं वह भी इसके चलते संभव नहीं है । जबकि इसके विपरीत चीन के सामने अजीब समस्या अपने उत्पादन को खपाने की है, यानि घरेलु मांग को बढाना । इन सबके चलते तो यही लगता है कि भारत चीन की तुलना बेमानी है । अभी लंदन ओलंपिक आ रहे हैं, चीन अपनी छाप छोड़ने को आतुर है, भारत को तो इन ओलंपिक के समापन के बाद ही राहत की सांस मिलेगी ।

चीन को माना जाता है चुंकि वहाँ लोकतांत्रिक व्यवस्था का अभाव है इसलिए जो जनमानस में असंतोष है वह इस विकास के माडल को नकार देगा, और लंबे दौर में भारत के अनुभव ज्यादा कारगर साबित होगे । परंतु भारत में लोकतंत्र का संकट भी कम नहीं, जिस तरह भ्रष्टाचार इसे खोखला कर रहा है ।

इस सबमें सबसे महत्व तत्व है वही देश स्वयं को अग्रणी कह सकेगा जहाँ समाज निर्माण की प्रक्रिया स्वस्थ होगी तथा आर्थिक प्रगति के परिमाण इसी की ओर इशारा करेंगे। चीन में यह दिखाई देता है वहाँ सरकार और पार्टी युवा नेतृत्व को महत्व दे रही है । भारत में इसके प्रति उदासीनता है जिसके चलते विकास के लिए सबल कदम लेने में कोताही हो रही है ।

अम्बरीष ढ़ाका

[amankadian]

वर्तमान राजनैतिक चर्चाओं में यह विषय अकसर आता है कि क्या भारत चीन से मुकाबला कर सकता है । चीन की अर्थव्यवस्था भारत से तीन गुना बड़ी है । वहाँ निवेश की कोई कमी नहीं है । चीन सरकार ढाँचागत परियोजनाओं में सबसे बड़ी निवेशक है । इसको देखकर पहला निष्कर्ष यही निकलता है कि भारत में ढाँचागत विकास चीन कि तुलना में अधिक पिछड़ा हुआ है । हमारी विकास दर सेवा क्षेत्र से जुड़ी हुई है, जो कि पश्चिम जगत के आर्थिक परिमाणो से निर्धारित है । इसका असर हमें देखने को मिला है । यही नहीं हम रक्षा के क्षेत्र में भी जिस प्रकार का निवेश चाह रहे हैं वह भी इसके चलते संभव नहीं है । जबकि इसके विपरीत चीन के सामने अजीब समस्या अपने उत्पादन को खपाने की है, यानि घरेलु मांग को बढाना । इन सबके चलते तो यही लगता है कि भारत चीन की तुलना बेमानी है । अभी लंदन ओलंपिक आ रहे हैं, चीन अपनी छाप छोड़ने को आतुर है, भारत को तो इन ओलंपिक के समापन के बाद ही राहत की सांस मिलेगी ।

चीन को माना जाता है चुंकि वहाँ लोकतांत्रिक व्यवस्था का अभाव है इसलिए जो जनमानस में असंतोष है वह इस विकास के माडल को नकार देगा, और लंबे दौर में भारत के अनुभव ज्यादा कारगर साबित होगे । परंतु भारत में लोकतंत्र का संकट भी कम नहीं, जिस तरह भ्रष्टाचार इसे खोखला कर रहा है ।

इस सबमें सबसे महत्व तत्व है वही देश स्वयं को अग्रणी कह सकेगा जहाँ समाज निर्माण की प्रक्रिया स्वस्थ होगी तथा आर्थिक प्रगति के परिमाण इसी की ओर इशारा करेंगे। चीन में यह दिखाई देता है वहाँ सरकार और पार्टी युवा नेतृत्व को महत्व दे रही है । भारत में इसके प्रति उदासीनता है जिसके चलते विकास के लिए सबल कदम लेने में कोताही हो रही है ।

अम्बरीष ढ़ाका

1. Not agree with this point. eBay and Amazon only depand on China. 40% People of United States dealing with it they do work as a seller and Chinese do drop shipping. China got five supercity(Hong kong, Shanghai, Beijing, Guangzhou, Taipei,etc.
( This is one of the biggest business in the world)

2. About the Gold China is Number One.
3. About GDP China three times ahead.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_People's_Republic_of_China
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_India


Negative :- China is too depand on Export and they are still investing to growth it.
Title must be ( China vs USA )

[amankadian]

East ho ya west
india is the best

[kapdal]

Sorry for replying in English as the OP is in Hindi.

Just wanted to make a very quick point. Whatever news you get out of China, take it with a pinch of salt as it is all state-guided. I am not suggesting that they are not ahead of India in GDP. But the whole China story is exaggerated. There are elites in West who gain a lot from it and ditto with elites in China. Just like India, there is lots of misery in China as well, but it doesn't come to the fore as everything is censored. Despite censorship, it is difficult to control the flow of information in the current age and you can see some really bad horror stories if you scratch the surface.

I agree with the contention that India and China should not be compared, but for different reasons. I would always prefer freedom and democracy over the Chinese model. There are lots of imperfections in Indian model, but they need to be countered within a free and democratic setup.

As far as economics is concerned, China will face a big challenge in going from an export/investment driven model to an internal demand/consumption model. Their export markets are in trouble and that is why they are also getting in trouble. Fundamentally, India should have been on a sounder footing, but the extremely poor governance is pulling us back. Now some will wishfully look at China and say "what-if, we had the same model", but I'd say pass to that. That model in India would take us even further back than where we are now.

[vicky84]

इस सबमें सबसे महत्व तत्व है वही देश स्वयं को अग्रणी कह सकेगा जहाँ समाज निर्माण की प्रक्रिया स्वस्थ होगी तथा आर्थिक प्रगति के परिमाण इसी की ओर इशारा करेंगे। चीन में यह दिखाई देता है वहाँ सरकार और पार्टी युवा नेतृत्व को महत्व दे रही है । भारत में इसके प्रति उदासीनता है जिसके चलते विकास के लिए सबल कदम लेने में कोताही हो रही है ।



Sarkaari tantra aur iske kaam karne ke tarike mei bahut bade badlaav ki jaroorat hai. Jaab tak isme badlaav nahi hoga.. Bharat ki rail gaadi aise hi dheere -dheere chalti rahegi.. Aise hi bahut se log berojgaar rahegnge.aur aise hi human resources ka wastage hota rahega.. Jo bharastachaar se chuna desh ko lag raha hai..usse kahin jayada misgovernance se lag raha hai.Anna Hazare ke lokpal mei koi dam nahi hai..usse doogna chuna lag sakta hai desh ko.. baaki rahi baat baba ramdev ki..to wo jaise apne doosre leaders hain..wo bhi waisa hi hai..usme aur doosre leaders mei koi farak nahi hai. Solution ye hai ki pehle sarkaari dhanche ko sudharoo..kyonki sarkaar hi desh ko chalati hai. Ye koi bollywood movie nahi hai ki ek "Hero" aayega aur jaadu ki chaddi chalake saab badal dega..

[rekhasmriti]

n in addition to that

i guess being Communist or Democratic ia major different in itself

over there everything is in govt control

no freedom

i once saw some video on youtube

100s of students get killed in soem police gun fire-coz they were protesting against government

on google---i once read ---they have use proxies to access fb, or any social n/w site

so much govt control on everything

but in india----yar kind of aish comparing to there----kuch bolo---kuch karo

n net acess toh aish----even torrensts bhi block nahi hai---aur toh kya hoga




1. Not agree with this point. eBay and Amazon only depand on China. 40% People of United States dealing with it they do work as a seller and Chinese do drop shipping. China got five supercity(Hong kong, Shanghai, Beijing, Guangzhou, Taipei,etc.
( This is one of the biggest business in the world)

2. About the Gold China is Number One.
3. About GDP China three times ahead.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_People's_Republic_of_China
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_India


Negative :- China is too depand on Export and they are still investing to growth it.
Title must be ( China vs USA )

[DrRajpalSingh]

n in addition to that

i guess being Communist or Democratic ia major different in itself

over there everything is in govt control

no freedom

i once saw some video on youtube

100s of students get killed in soem police gun fire-coz they were protesting against government

on google---i once read ---they have use proxies to access fb, or any social n/w site

so much govt control on everything

but in india----yar kind of aish comparing to there----kuch bolo---kuch karo

n net acess toh aish----even torrensts bhi block nahi hai---aur toh kya hoga


Sarkaari tantra aur iske kaam karne ke tarike mei bahut bade badlaav ki jaroorat hai. Jaab tak isme badlaav nahi hoga.. Bharat ki rail gaadi aise hi dheere -dheere chalti rahegi.. Aise hi bahut se log berojgaar rahegnge.aur aise hi human resources ka wastage hota rahega.. Jo bharastachaar se chuna desh ko lag raha hai..usse kahin jayada misgovernance se lag raha hai.Anna Hazare ke lokpal mei koi dam nahi hai..usse doogna chuna lag sakta hai desh ko.. baaki rahi baat baba ramdev ki..to wo jaise apne doosre leaders hain..wo bhi waisa hi hai..usme aur doosre leaders mei koi farak nahi hai. Solution ye hai ki pehle sarkaari dhanche ko sudharoo..kyonki sarkaar hi desh ko chalati hai. Ye koi bollywood movie nahi hai ki ek "Hero" aayega aur jaadu ki chaddi chalake saab badal dega..


Iron curtain and RTI in China and India reveal basic difference of the governance. Both the countries are making efforts to further strengthen them.

[vicky84]

Iron curtain and RTI in China and India reveal basic difference of the governance. Both the countries are making efforts to further strengthen them.


Sir,

Whenever we compare India and China, we never fail to highlight about Indian Democracy and its advantages. But may be its not bad to look at the other side coin.

I read an article last month. I hope people would not mind my copy paste. I feel its related to the topic and could be a good reading for others.





Australia's next big problem: India's democracy

Excerpt from the article:

The Goldilocks scenario was based on the assumption that India would follow much the same path of industrialisation and urbanisation as China is and the likes of Japan, Taiwan and Korea did. They, in turn, travelled much the same road as the US and Europe had a century or two ago, experiencing massive restructuring, productivity growth and wealth creation as their societies were transformed by the growth of cities and moving up the value chain from being primarily agrarian.

There's one big difference though – India is a democracy. It is arguable that no country has undergone such a revolution as a genuine democracy. The leap involved in a populous nation industrialising tends to involve plenty of hard and nasty stuff as the status quo is overturned – land being cleared of peasants, established rent seekers replaced by a new order, societies uprooted and overturned.


The established Asian economic powers weren't democracies when they passed through that stage and China definitely isn't now. Universal suffrage remains a relatively recent phenomenon, post-dating the European and American industrial revolutions. The US might have come closest to it, but only a minority of Americans had the vote (women and blacks were excluded just for starters) as it absorbed “your tired, your poor” and created wealth in various dark mills.

To state the obvious, India is different. By most reckonings of the standard development curve, India is travelling somewhere between 15 and 20 years behind China. Of particular interest to Australia, its steel intensity has barely started to take off. If India was to follow the Chinese example, the economic benefits would be massive, lifting hundreds of millions of people out of extreme poverty. It's been expressed in various ways, but Deng Xiaoping arguably did more to alleviate poverty than all the world's NGOs, charities and United Nations agencies combined.
Krishna knows India urgently needs to follow the established pattern. Cheap labor certainly is exploited in the social sense, but has scarcely begun to be in the economic sense – the poor are just exploited and kept in their place.

Increasingly fractured and corrupt politics failing to deal with India's enormous challenges now means the nation is being set up for greater crises as its population boom rolls on. The pro-India cheer squad cites its demographics and democracy as reasons for the Indian tiger to eventually overtake the Chinese dragon, but while China's one-child policy has become a demographic problem and it suffers from not having enough democracy, India's quickly growing population and rampant democracy may prove even more dangerous.
Should the day arrive when one brand or another of authoritarianism – nationalistic, religious or military – is able to seize control through gross government failure, lack of demand for Australian coking coal could be the least of the region's concerns.


Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/business/australias-next-big-problem-indias-democracy-20120521-1z08u.html#ixzz1zo4nSGmU

[vicky84]

Lets see when we will get rid of babudom. I am trying to be optimistic.


Iron curtain and RTI in China and India reveal basic difference of the governance. Both the countries are making efforts to further strengthen them.

[DrRajpalSingh]

Sir,

Whenever we compare India and China, we never fail to highlight about Indian Democracy and its advantages. But may be its not bad to look into other side of the coin.

I read an article last month. I hope people would not mind my copy paste. I feel its related to the topic and could be a good reading for others.





Australia's next big problem: India's democracy

Excerpt from the article:

The Goldilocks scenario was based on the assumption that India would follow much the same path of industrialisation and urbanisation as China is and the likes of Japan, Taiwan and Korea did. They, in turn, travelled much the same road as the US and Europe had a century or two ago, experiencing massive restructuring, productivity growth and wealth creation as their societies were transformed by the growth of cities and moving up the value chain from being primarily agrarian.

There's one big difference though – India is a democracy. It is arguable that no country has undergone such a revolution as a genuine democracy. The leap involved in a populous nation industrialising tends to involve plenty of hard and nasty stuff as the status quo is overturned – land being cleared of peasants, established rent seekers replaced by a new order, societies uprooted and overturned.


The established Asian economic powers weren't democracies when they passed through that stage and China definitely isn't now. Universal suffrage remains a relatively recent phenomenon, post-dating the European and American industrial revolutions. The US might have come closest to it, but only a minority of Americans had the vote (women and blacks were excluded just for starters) as it absorbed “your tired, your poor” and created wealth in various dark mills.

To state the obvious, India is different. By most reckonings of the standard development curve, India is travelling somewhere between 15 and 20 years behind China. Of particular interest to Australia, its steel intensity has barely started to take off. If India was to follow the Chinese example, the economic benefits would be massive, lifting hundreds of millions of people out of extreme poverty. It's been expressed in various ways, but Deng Xiaoping arguably did more to alleviate poverty than all the world's NGOs, charities and United Nations agencies combined.
Krishna knows India urgently needs to follow the established pattern. Cheap labor certainly is exploited in the social sense, but has scarcely begun to be in the economic sense – the poor are just exploited and kept in their place.

Increasingly fractured and corrupt politics failing to deal with India's enormous challenges now means the nation is being set up for greater crises as its population boom rolls on. The pro-India cheer squad cites its demographics and democracy as reasons for the Indian tiger to eventually overtake the Chinese dragon, but while China's one-child policy has become a demographic problem and it suffers from not having enough democracy, India's quickly growing population and rampant democracy may prove even more dangerous.
Should the day arrive when one brand or another of authoritarianism – nationalistic, religious or military – is able to seize control through gross government failure, lack of demand for Australian coking coal could be the least of the region's concerns.


Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/business/australias-next-big-problem-indias-democracy-20120521-1z08u.html#ixzz1zo4nSGmU

Good article reproduced for which you deserve thanks. But prosperity at the cost of liberty and freedom is not acceptable to majority of the mankind.

[anilsangwan]

तुलना करे कुण स... जिन ने तुलना कर के कुछ सबक लेना चाहिए एर देश में बदलाव लाना चाहिए...या जो बदलाव ला सकते हैं... वो तो "घर भरण" लाग रे सें लूट लूट के पीसा...


.... एर अपने जिसे तुलना करे जाओ....... के होणी जाणी स.......!!!

[deshi-jat]

There farmer can only be tiller or lessee, not the owner of land. I don’t think Jats will tolerate such a system.

21 maheene ki emergency log-baag ib tahi naa boole sai. Aur Waha to emergency hatne ka naam hee na le rahi.

[narvir]

तुलना करे कुण स... जिन ने तुलना कर के कुछ सबक लेना चाहिए एर देश में बदलाव लाना चाहिए...या जो बदलाव ला सकते हैं... वो तो "घर भरण" लाग रे सें लूट लूट के पीसा...


.... एर अपने जिसे तुलना करे जाओ....... के होणी जाणी स.......!!!


अनिल भाई साहब ,

तुलना करण में के बुराई स ?
ठीक स उन्न न तो फुर्सत स कोनी जो ऊपर बैठे स व तो जरुरी काम म लाग रे स,पर आपने जिसे लोग जो या तुलना करे स न या बी बेकार कोनी जा!
आज नहीं तो काल बदलाव तो आवेगा जरुर क्यों की बदलाव पर्करती का नियम स !
एकदम कुछ नि बदला करता सब कुछ टेम के हिसाब त होया करे !
आर जिब बदलाव आवेगा यानि ये लोग जो आज देश न चला रहे स ये हट ज्यांगे और नए आदमी उड़े बैठ ज्यांगे,वे बी आम आदमिया म त ऐ जावेंगे ! उस टेम उन आदमिया न ज्ञान होगा इन सब बता का तो व कीमे तो करेंगे कुर्सी प बेठ के न !
आपा तो उड़े कोनी पंहुचा पर आपनी या सोच जरुर पहुचेगी उड़े ताई!
या सोच जिब्बे बानगी जिब आपा या बहस बाजी करी जावांगे जिदे बेर पाटेगा आपा न ! कई आदमी जिब एक बात प बहस करे स तो घनी ऐ इसी बात बेरा लागे स जो आपा न बराए कोनी होंदी!
मेरा कहण का मतलब स की इस तरया की कोशिश यानि देश क बारे म सोचण की हर आदमी न जरुरत ह जिबे एक सोच बणेगी आर उस पे अमल हो सकेगा !

धन्यवाद्
राम राम

[anilsangwan]

या सोच जिब्बे बानगी जिब आपा या बहस बाजी करी जावांगे जिदे बेर पाटेगा आपा न ! कई आदमी जिब एक बात प बहस करे स तो घनी ऐ इसी बात बेरा लागे स जो आपा न बराए कोनी होंदी!
मेरा कहण का मतलब स की इस तरया की कोशिश यानि देश क बारे म सोचण की हर आदमी न जरुरत ह जिबे एक सोच बणेगी आर उस पे अमल हो सकेगा !

धन्यवाद्
राम राम


बिलकुल मान ली भाई आप की बात..... आपस में बहस करन तें ज्ञान बढे स.... लेकिन भाई मेरा मतलब बहस को रोकना नहीं.... सिर्फ ये याद दिलाना है की उपर आले आँख नाक कान बन्ध कर के बैठे सें..... हम जागरूक भी हो गए तो भी बांदरा के हाथ में माचिस स.... बान्दर आग लगावें आक छोडें ...या उनकी मर्जी...... पहलाम बान्दरान के हाथ में तें माचिस खोस्नी पड़ेगी.... फेर चाहे अमरीका गैल तुलना कर लियो भारत की..... फ़ालतू ए बैठेगा वजन में.....

[ravinderjeet]

East ho ya west
india is the best

भर्सटाचार में और देशद्रोह में !!!!!!!

[swaich]

Good article reproduced for which you deserve thanks. But prosperity at the cost of liberty and freedom is not acceptable to majority of the mankind.

That is a subjective concept. Lets simply compare people like me and you living in urban areas and active internet users in both countries. The Chinese have better infrastructure, access to resources and opportunities. Only thing they lack is a right to vote to decide who governs them. Whereas the same right has brought us where we are today.

Its a tempting deal - exchanging your right to vote for better economic well being. Will China's educated and moneyed people one day ask for democracy like the way they did in Tiainmen square or will our democracy itself collapse by the burden of inefficiency, corruption and insurgencies. Perhaps only time will tell.

[narvir]

...........................sorry..................

[swaich]

God created Millions of faces with difference looks.

But when he reached China,he was tired.

then he started,copy,paste,copy,paste,copy,paste.........; )

Bhai while I like the joke, but sometimes a joke is a little misplaced in a serious discussion thread like this one. It might be best to delete it. There's a time and place for everything. :)

[vikasJAT]

तुलना करे कुण स... जिन ने तुलना कर के कुछ सबक लेना चाहिए एर देश में बदलाव लाना चाहिए...या जो बदलाव ला सकते हैं... वो तो "घर भरण" लाग रे सें लूट लूट के पीसा...


.... एर अपने जिसे तुलना करे जाओ....... के होणी जाणी स.......!!!

Security me he dekh lo aaj chin India se jyda powerful hai aur lagatar apni force badha raha hai.....
Humare yaha Army me b ghotale ho rahe hain, yaha tak k hathiyaro me b ghotala h......exampale boforce, tatra etc etc......
yaha tulna karne se kuch ni hona jana......

[vikasJAT]

[QUOTE=narvir;309915]अनिल भाई साहब ,

तुलना करण में के बुराई स ?
ठीक स उन्न न तो फुर्सत स कोनी जो ऊपर बैठे स व तो जरुरी काम म लाग रे स,पर आपने जिसे लोग जो या तुलना करे स न या बी बेकार कोनी जा!
आज नहीं तो काल बदलाव तो आवेगा जरुर क्यों की बदलाव पर्करती का नियम स !
bhai tane news me chin army ki kuch clips b dekhi hongi ki kyukar training de h un ne.......vo dekh k k badlav aaya se?????
एकदम कुछ नि बदला करता सब कुछ टेम के हिसाब त होया करे !
आर जिब बदलाव आवेगा यानि ये लोग जो आज देश न चला रहे स ये हट ज्यांगे और नए आदमी उड़े बैठ ज्यांगे,वे बी आम आदमिया म त ऐ जावेंगे ! उस टेम उन आदमिया न ज्ञान होगा इन सब बता का तो व कीमे तो करेंगे कुर्सी प बेठ के न !
Jo aaj kursi pe baithe se kal ne unke e rishtedar us kursi pe aavenge....aur jo politics me aave h un ne ek cheez sikhayi jave h ki elections me jitna paisa lagaya h pehle vo pura karo fir thoda aur zama kar lo.....pur 5 saal vo paisa e jama karan me lage reh se.......ebb tak sirf ghotale badhe se....kuch aur badha ho to tu bata de????
आपा तो उड़े कोनी पंहुचा पर आपनी या सोच जरुर पहुचेगी उड़े ताई!
या सोच जिब्बे बानगी जिब आपा या बहस बाजी करी जावांगे जिदे बेर पाटेगा आपा न ! कई आदमी जिब एक बात प बहस करे स तो घनी ऐ इसी बात बेरा लागे स जो आपा न बराए कोनी होंदी!
मेरा कहण का मतलब स की इस तरया की कोशिश यानि देश क बारे म सोचण की हर आदमी न जरुरत ह जिबे एक सोच बणेगी आर उस पे अमल हो सकेगा!

bhai tere baat sach hoja to badiya se......per lagta koni kimme isper amal hovega........chin ki force pehle kitni thi aur ab kitni hai, pehle kon use support karta tha aur ab kon kon kar raha h, pehle aadhunik hathiyar kitne the aur ab kitne hain........progress me ab kitan aage hai etc etc

[swaich]

On the main topic - It is fair to compare India and China because both are ancient civilizations who broke off the colonial chains around the same time, faced similar problems and yet have chosen vastly different paths to economic and social prosperity. Its the story of two neighbors who want to retrieve their glorious past and assume world eminence while shrugging off their contemporary problems.

[VirJ]

On the main topic - It is fair to compare India and China because both are ancient civilizations who broke off the colonial chains around the same time, faced similar problems and yet have chosen vastly different paths to economic and social prosperity. Its the story of two neighbors who want to retrieve their glorious past and assume world eminence while shrugging of their contemporary problems.

Was china a colony too? I dont think so. They might have some influence from some power but it was never a colony (except Hongkong).

[ravinderjeet]

Was china a colony too? I dont think so. They might have some influence from some power but it was never a colony (except Hongkong).

चीन भी अंग्रेजों की कालोनी थी (प्रोंक्स रूप तें )भाई , पर शाशन उड़े के राजा के-ए हाथ में था , जो अंग्रेजां की गेल करे होड़ अनुबंध के अनुसार शाशन करे था ,नाम मात्र का | अर उस टेम चीन आज के चीन तें आधा था , बाकी ते साम्यवादी शाशन ने कई देशां पे कब्जा कर के ने यु इतना बड्डा क़र्या होड़ स |

[narvir]

[QUOTE=narvir;309915]अनिल भाई साहब ,

तुलना करण में के बुराई स ?
ठीक स उन्न न तो फुर्सत स कोनी जो ऊपर बैठे स व तो जरुरी काम म लाग रे स,पर आपने जिसे लोग जो या तुलना करे स न या बी बेकार कोनी जा!
आज नहीं तो काल बदलाव तो आवेगा जरुर क्यों की बदलाव पर्करती का नियम स !
bhai tane news me chin army ki kuch clips b dekhi hongi ki kyukar training de h un ne.......vo dekh k k badlav aaya se?????
एकदम कुछ नि बदला करता सब कुछ टेम के हिसाब त होया करे !
आर जिब बदलाव आवेगा यानि ये लोग जो आज देश न चला रहे स ये हट ज्यांगे और नए आदमी उड़े बैठ ज्यांगे,वे बी आम आदमिया म त ऐ जावेंगे ! उस टेम उन आदमिया न ज्ञान होगा इन सब बता का तो व कीमे तो करेंगे कुर्सी प बेठ के न !
Jo aaj kursi pe baithe se kal ne unke e rishtedar us kursi pe aavenge....aur jo politics me aave h un ne ek cheez sikhayi jave h ki elections me jitna paisa lagaya h pehle vo pura karo fir thoda aur zama kar lo.....pur 5 saal vo paisa e jama karan me lage reh se.......ebb tak sirf ghotale badhe se....kuch aur badha ho to tu bata de????
आपा तो उड़े कोनी पंहुचा पर आपनी या सोच जरुर पहुचेगी उड़े ताई!
या सोच जिब्बे बानगी जिब आपा या बहस बाजी करी जावांगे जिदे बेर पाटेगा आपा न ! कई आदमी जिब एक बात प बहस करे स तो घनी ऐ इसी बात बेरा लागे स जो आपा न बराए कोनी होंदी!
मेरा कहण का मतलब स की इस तरया की कोशिश यानि देश क बारे म सोचण की हर आदमी न जरुरत ह जिबे एक सोच बणेगी आर उस पे अमल हो सकेगा!

bhai tere baat sach hoja to badiya se......per lagta koni kimme isper amal hovega........chin ki force pehle kitni thi aur ab kitni hai, pehle kon use support karta tha aur ab kon kon kar raha h, pehle aadhunik hathiyar kitne the aur ab kitne hain........progress me ab kitan aage hai etc etc

विकास भाई,
मैंने एक बात कही है यहाँ की हमे तुलना करनी चाहिए और फिर आपस मै इससे जो बात समझ आये उसको एक दुसरे को बताना चाहिए !
अगर ये बात आपको गलत लगती है तो है तो इसका मतलब है की हमे कुछ भी नहीं करना चाहिए !
मतलब अब कुछ सोचना,सीखना,समझने की कोशिश करना और बाते करना भी बंद कर देना चाहिए?
जो भी चल रहा है उसमे हम कुछ नहीं कर सकते?
चलो मै मान लेता हूँ आपकी बात अब आप ही जवाब दो इन बातो का !
bhai tane news me chin army ki kuch clips b dekhi hongi ki kyukar training de h un ne.......vo dekh k k badlav aaya se?????
आप का कहना है की इन न्यूज़ को देखने से कोई बदलाव नहीं आना है तो फिर क्यों देख रहे है आप ये समाचार और क्यों बात करते हो इन समाचारों की ?
Jo aaj kursi pe baithe se kal ne unke e rishtedar us kursi pe aavenge....aur jo politics me aave h un ne ek cheez sikhayi jave h ki elections me jitna paisa lagaya h pehle vo pura karo fir thoda
aur zama kar lo.....pur 5 saal vo paisa e jama karan me lage reh se.......ebb tak sirf ghotale badhe se....kuch aur badha ho to tu bata de????
कुर्सी कोए किसे की पुस्तेनी जागीर नहीं है की जो आज उसपे बैठा है कल किसी रितेदार को बिठा देगा ! यही तो बताना चाहता हूँ भाई अगर आम आदमी जागरूक होगा तो ये पुस्तेनी काम नहीं चल पायेगा,सबसे बड़ी जो कमी है हमारे यहाँ वो जागरूकता की ही तो है !
और जागरूकता के लिए ही ये कसरत जरुरी है !
एक बार आम आदमी की जागरूकता की भी तुलना कर के देखो की चीन का आम आदमी भारत का एक आम आदमी से कितना जागरूक है!

धन्यवाद्

[DrRajpalSingh]

Was china a colony too? I dont think so. They might have some influence from some power but it was never a colony (except Hongkong).

Yes, Major portion of China also remained a colony of the British, German, French, Americans, Dutch's, Portuguese etc. for a considerable period of time.

This happened like this. China was a clossed country for outside people from the ancient times; but after the British East India Company emerged as a political power in India in the second half of the 18th century onwards, their frequent trade tours to and fro from India to England through see routes led to their interference in Chinese affairs where the British ships used to take coal and water like the port of Shanghai. then, after the two opium wars [c.1842-60 AD], China had to accede to the British demand to open its mainland, rivers routes and ports and due to US intervention had to agree to adopt open door policy i.e China was opened for all the Western colonists and imperialists including US, Subsequently these colonists carved out their own spheres of influence in the important centres of trade and commerce where their own laws, not the Chinese, was enforced. These new rulers exploited China till 1911 when under the leadership of Dr. Sun Yat Sen, people of China rose in revolt and drew the foreigners out of China.

After the death of Dr. Sun Yat Sen's death taking advantage of the weaknesses of the leadership of Chang Kai Sek, Chao-en -Lae and Maot-se-tung organised a long March of the Red armies in the mainland of China and drew Chang Kai Sek away to Formosa in 1949. Since, then China is under one party, one flag and one leader type of government of the Communists.

This makes clear that China is free from the imperialist forces since 1911 whereas India attained truncated freedom in 1947. This crucial gap of 36 years must have made great difference in the developments in various fields in the two countries.

Thanks

[VirJ]

Dear Sir, We must thank you for the information you provided but to me colony means where a power has direct political control which is difference to sphere of influence. Today USA has influence on pakistan but is pakistan a colony? NO. Our mental setup has been influenced a lot by these colonial powers, our education system, language everything was destroyed to an extent.

[DrRajpalSingh]

[QUOTE=vikasJAT;309932]

विकास भाई,
मैंने एक बात कही है यहाँ की हमे तुलना करनी चाहिए और फिर आपस मै इससे जो बात समझ आये उसको एक दुसरे को बताना चाहिए !
अगर ये बात आपको गलत लगती है तो है तो इसका मतलब है की हमे कुछ भी नहीं करना चाहिए !
मतलब अब कुछ सोचना,सीखना,समझने की कोशिश करना और बाते करना भी बंद कर देना चाहिए?
जो भी चल रहा है उसमे हम कुछ नहीं कर सकते?
चलो मै मान लेता हूँ आपकी बात अब आप ही जवाब दो इन बातो का !
bhai tane news me chin army ki kuch clips b dekhi hongi ki kyukar training de h un ne.......vo dekh k k badlav aaya se?????
आप का कहना है की इन न्यूज़ को देखने से कोई बदलाव नहीं आना है तो फिर क्यों देख रहे है आप ये समाचार और क्यों बात करते हो इन समाचारों की ?
Jo aaj kursi pe baithe se kal ne unke e rishtedar us kursi pe aavenge....aur jo politics me aave h un ne ek cheez sikhayi jave h ki elections me jitna paisa lagaya h pehle vo pura karo fir thoda
aur zama kar lo.....pur 5 saal vo paisa e jama karan me lage reh se.......ebb tak sirf ghotale badhe se....kuch aur badha ho to tu bata de????
कुर्सी कोए किसे की पुस्तेनी जागीर नहीं है की जो आज उसपे बैठा है कल किसी रितेदार को बिठा देगा ! यही तो बताना चाहता हूँ भाई अगर आम आदमी जागरूक होगा तो ये पुस्तेनी काम नहीं चल पायेगा,सबसे बड़ी जो कमी है हमारे यहाँ वो जागरूकता की ही तो है !
और जागरूकता के लिए ही ये कसरत जरुरी है !
एक बार आम आदमी की जागरूकता की भी तुलना कर के देखो की चीन का आम आदमी भारत का एक आम आदमी से कितना जागरूक है!
धन्यवाद्
Friend,

You are right to say that enlightenment of the developments around the world is the necessity of the hour.

But it is wrong to assume that Chinese are more enlightened in comparison to the Indians because there are only fundamental duties not rights of the people as are granted to us in the Constitution of India. One party i.e. Communist Party of China has all the rights under its cadres who act according to the wish of their one supreme leader [Secretary General].

Further, while comparing two ancient nations of the world, one should also take into consideration that the size of China is about three times to India. This gives an edge in the minerals and metal as well as other natural resources. In addition to socio-political conditions, objective conditions prevailing in both the countries are also altogether different. So no tangible purpose could be served by comparing the two Asian countries as Mr. Vikas has pointed out.

Even then, everybody has freedom to indulge in his chosen path of comparisons, perhaps, which could bring about some hidden truth to life.

Thanks

[DrRajpalSingh]

Dear Sir, We must thank you for the information you provided but to me colony means where a power has direct political control which is difference to sphere of influence. Today USA has influence on pakistan but is pakistan a colony? NO. Our mental setup has been influenced a lot by these colonial powers, our education system, language everything was destroyed to an extent.

Dear Friend,

I do not challenge your right to define the word 'colony' as you like it. To say that Chinese were not much influenced by the western developments is also a wrong surmise because the Leader of the Revolution of 1911 Dr. Sun Yat Sen was a product of US Universities and he introduced all the modern education in science and technology in his government that was available in the US and other countries. Not Communists but he laid the foundation of progress and development and is the real architect of the modern China.

But I am taking of the really historic facts of China. They remained under the control of so many nations for a long time and ultimately, they rose as a nation as stated in my earlier post,had to fight pitched battles to drive them out of their country all the imperialists at the same time.

This fact can be verified by anyone by studying the Chinese History that they were enslaved by the foreigners.

Thanks

[swaich]

Dear Sir, We must thank you for the information you provided but to me colony means where a power has direct political control which is difference to sphere of influence. Today USA has influence on pakistan but is pakistan a colony? NO. Our mental setup has been influenced a lot by these colonial powers, our education system, language everything was destroyed to an extent.

Vir..You are right China wasnt a colony in the exact definition of the term. Its political control rested on its own monarch but for all practical purposes it was a colony in the economic and social sense.

Perhaps, "subjugated by foreign powers" is a better term phrase for China instead of "colonized by foreign powers". However in both the cases the effect was similar. A broken country, economically and socially backward by the time it managed to free itself of foreign control.

[DrRajpalSingh]

On the main topic - It is fair to compare India and China because both are ancient civilizations who broke off the colonial chains around the same time, faced similar problems and yet have chosen vastly different paths to economic and social prosperity. Its the story of two neighbors who want to retrieve their glorious past and assume world eminence while shrugging off their contemporary problems.

China became free from the puppet regime of the country supported by the foreigners due to the efforts of the nationalists. Here is a gist of the events leading to the establishment of the Republic of China in 1911 . The time gap may be taken into consideration while making comparisons. The Extract is from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia about the rule of Qing dynasty and foundation of the Republic:


Internally, the Taiping Rebellion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion) (1851–1864), a quasi-Christian religious movement led by the "Heavenly King" Hong Xiuquan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Xiuquan), would raid roughly a third of Chinese territory for over a decade until they were finally crushed in the Third Battle of Nanking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Battle_of_Nanking) in 1864. Arguably one of the largest warfares in the 19th century in terms of troops involvement, there were massive lost of lives, with a death toll of about 20 millions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_and_anthropogenic_disasters_by_death_ toll#Wars_and_armed_conflicts).[24] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_China#cite_note-Userserols-23) A string of rebellions would follow, which included Punti-Hakka Clan Wars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punti-Hakka_Clan_Wars), Nien Rebellion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nien_Rebellion), Muslim Rebellion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungan_revolt_(1862%E2%80%931877)), Panthay Rebellion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panthay_Rebellion) and the Boxer Rebellion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_Rebellion).[25] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_China#cite_note-24) All rebellions were eventually put down at enormous cost and casualties, the weakened central imperial authority would gradually give rise to regional warlordism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warlordism). Eventually, China would descend into civil war (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warlord_era_(China)) immediately after the1911 revolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Revolution_(1911)) that overthrew the Qing's imperial rule.


http://bits.wikimedia.org/static-1.20wmf6/skins/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_Portrait_of_the_Qing_Dynasty_Cixi_Imperia l_Dowager_Empress_of_China_in_the_1900s.PNG)
The Empress Dowager Cixi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empress_Dowager_Cixi)


In response to the calamities within the empire and threats from imperialism, the Self-Strengthening Movement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-Strengthening_Movement) was an institutional reform to modernize the empire with prime emphasis to strengthen the military. However, the reform was undermined by the corruption of officials, cynicism, and quarrels of the imperial family. As a result, the "Beiyang Navy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beiyang_Navy)" were soundly defeated in the Sino-Japanese War (1894-1895) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Japanese_War_(1894-1895)). Guangxu Emperor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guangxu_Emperor) and the reformists then launched a more comprehensive reform effort, the Hundred Day's Reform (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred_Day%27s_Reform) (1898), but it was shortly overturned by the conservatives under Empress Dowager Cixi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empress_Dowager_Cixi) in a military coup.
At the turn of the 20th century, a conservative anti-imperialist movement, the Boxer Rebellion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_Rebellion) violently revolted against foreign suppression over vast areas in Northern China. The Empress Dowager, probably seeking to ensure her continual grip on power, sided with the Boxers as they advanced on Beijing.
In response, a relief expedition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Relief_Expedition) of the Eight-Nation Alliance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-Nation_Alliance) invaded China to rescue the besieged foreign missions. Consisting of British, Japanese, Russian, Italian, German, French, US and Austrian troops, the alliance defeated the Boxers and demanded further concessions from the Qing government. [I][Bold words mine].

For susequent developments, please see,

[Moar]

Carnegie Endowment for International Peace on >>

>> China-India Relations: Friends or Foes? : http://www.carnegieendowment.org/2010/10/27/china-india-relations-friends-or-foes/3j3 <<

Have Your Say ?! <<

[swaich]

China became free from the puppet regime of the country supported by the foreigners due to the efforts of the nationalists. Here is a gist of the events leading to the establishment of the Republic of China in 1911 . The time gap may be taken into consideration while making comparisons. The Extract is from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia about the rule of Qing dynasty and foundation of the Republic:


Internally, the Taiping Rebellion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion) (1851–1864), a quasi-Christian religious movement led by the "Heavenly King" Hong Xiuquan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Xiuquan), would raid roughly a third of Chinese territory for over a decade until they were finally crushed in the Third Battle of Nanking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Battle_of_Nanking) in 1864. Arguably one of the largest warfares in the 19th century in terms of troops involvement, there were massive lost of lives, with a death toll of about 20 millions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_and_anthropogenic_disasters_by_death_ toll#Wars_and_armed_conflicts).[24] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_China#cite_note-Userserols-23) A string of rebellions would follow, which included Punti-Hakka Clan Wars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punti-Hakka_Clan_Wars), Nien Rebellion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nien_Rebellion), Muslim Rebellion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungan_revolt_(1862%E2%80%931877)), Panthay Rebellion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panthay_Rebellion) and the Boxer Rebellion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_Rebellion).[25] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_China#cite_note-24) All rebellions were eventually put down at enormous cost and casualties, the weakened central imperial authority would gradually give rise to regional warlordism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warlordism). Eventually, China would descend into civil war (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warlord_era_(China)) immediately after the1911 revolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Revolution_(1911)) that overthrew the Qing's imperial rule.


http://bits.wikimedia.org/static-1.20wmf6/skins/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_Portrait_of_the_Qing_Dynasty_Cixi_Imperia l_Dowager_Empress_of_China_in_the_1900s.PNG)
The Empress Dowager Cixi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empress_Dowager_Cixi)


In response to the calamities within the empire and threats from imperialism, the Self-Strengthening Movement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-Strengthening_Movement) was an institutional reform to modernize the empire with prime emphasis to strengthen the military. However, the reform was undermined by the corruption of officials, cynicism, and quarrels of the imperial family. As a result, the "Beiyang Navy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beiyang_Navy)" were soundly defeated in the Sino-Japanese War (18941895) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Japanese_War_(1894-1895)). Guangxu Emperor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guangxu_Emperor) and the reformists then launched a more comprehensive reform effort, the Hundred Day's Reform (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred_Day%27s_Reform) (1898), but it was shortly overturned by the conservatives under Empress Dowager Cixi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empress_Dowager_Cixi) in a military coup.
At the turn of the 20th century, a conservative anti-imperialist movement, the Boxer Rebellion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_Rebellion) violently revolted against foreign suppression over vast areas in Northern China. The Empress Dowager, probably seeking to ensure her continual grip on power, sided with the Boxers as they advanced on Beijing.
In response, a relief expedition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Relief_Expedition) of the Eight-Nation Alliance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-Nation_Alliance) invaded China to rescue the besieged foreign missions. Consisting of British, Japanese, Russian, Italian, German, French, US and Austrian troops, the alliance defeated the Boxers and demanded further concessions from the Qing government. [I][Bold words mine].

For susequent developments, please see,

Sir the section you posted itself mentions that China was immediatel plunged into a civil war after the decleration of a republic in 1911 .so it pro ably isn't too far off the mark to say that the republic was short lived. And more over Japan occupied China right at the beginning of ww2. So its fair to say that the actual republic came into effect only after the war.

[rakeshsehrawat]

May be using my Preoccupied mind

China have straightforward policy " Manufacture anything and everything within boundary of nation may be inferior quality"
India "Import , Import, Import even if we can manufacture it or we can Save what is produced here but still try to Import"
China "Search every single opportunity of the world where we can export" India "Import"
China" Fix price of dollar even if we are getting less for our products but still we are getting dollars, It also buys dollars to keep as stock for bad times"
Indian Rupee have no stability and we know that we are highly dependent on imports still we want someone to give us dollars in Charity.
We do not believe in quality of country made products our Potato is getting wasted due to lack of storage and we love buying PEPSI Co's Chips.
We are looking for Walmart to create storage for us, But we can not do it on our own.
We can easily neglect Union Carbide, Enron but we are against Anna protests.
China is under strict rule but still they are favoring Every Chinese.
I am not saying that we can not compete China but all i know that under Rascals like Pranab, Sibbal and Chidambram this is a dream nearly impossible to achieve.
We are far ahead of China being democratic but we are still lagging patriots at ruling positions.

[Ambijat]

भारत और चीन : कुछ और तथ्य

१. चीन में लोकतंत्र की व्यवस्था है, परंतु चीन की कम्यूनिस्ट पार्टी के तत्वाधान में है । वहाँ स्थानीय निकायों के सीधे चुनाव होते हैं, तथा राष्ट्रीय पीपुल्स कांग्रेस के अप्रत्यक्ष रूप में, ठीक वैसे ही जैसे हमारे यहाँ जिला परिषद के चुनाव होते हैं । विरोधाभास यह है कि भारत की उच्चतम लोकतांत्रिक परंपराओं के बाद भी इसका प्रधानमंत्री प्रत्यक्ष निर्वाचित नहीं है ।


२. भारत मुद्रास्फीति के लगातार दबाव को २०१० से झेल रहा है तथा रिजर्व बैंक इसे नियंत्रित करने के लिए पिछले २ वर्षों से ब्याज दर को ५ से ८ प्रतिशत तक ले आया । चीन में इसके विपरीत घरेलु मांग को बढ़ाने के लिए लगातार ब्याज दर को कम कर रहा है । आज यह ५ प्रतिशत से नीचे है । चीन में दुपहिये वाहन अधिकतर बैटरी चलित हैं । भारत में एक से एक नई पैट्रोल आधारित मोटरसाइकिलें बाजार में आ रही हैं ।


३. चीन में उर्जा उत्पादन एक कीर्तीमान है । चीन का ३ गार्ज बाँध (यांग्सी नदी) २२,००० मेगावाट उत्पादन करने वाली अकेली परियोजना है । भारत में इसकी कल्पना मात्र ही की जा सकती है । यदि हम नेपाल के विकास के प्रति संवेदनशील होते तो शायद भारत भी ऐसा कुछ कर पाता ।


४. चीन में नस्लीय विविधता ना हो पर लोकसंस्कृति के आधार पर चीन में उतनी ही विविधता है जितने कि भारत में हिंदी भाषी क्षेत्र में पाई जाती है । चीन भारत की सांस्कृतिक विविधता के प्रति संवेदनशील है तथा इसे भारत के उच्चतम सभ्यता के प्रमाणों के रूप मे देखता है ।


५. भारत व चीन दोनो ही में मीडिया संवेदनात्मक भूमिका निभाते हैं जो कि परस्पर प्रतिस्पर्धा को जीवित रखते हैं । दोनो ही ओर से साकारात्मक रवैये की आवश्यकता है ।


६. चीन मे कानून का भय अतिगामी है तो भारत में प्राय: कानून नाम की चीज का ना होना आम शिकायत है ।


७. चीन मे आम आदमी का जीवन सुरक्षित है भारत में आम आदमी इस तथ्य को स्वीकार मुश्किल से ही कर पाता है ।


८. चीन में बुनियादी सुविधाएं जैसे शिक्षा , स्वास्थ्य आदि सभी को उपलब्ध हैं । भारत को इन अधिकारों को स्वीकार करने में ही ५० से अधिक वर्ष लग गये ।


९. चीन में महिलाएं पुरुषों के समान आर्थिक क्षेत्र में व्यापक रुप से कार्य कर रही हैं, परंतु चीन में महिलाएं राजनीति के क्षेत्र में नही के बराबर हैं । भारत में महिलाओं की आर्थिक भागीदारी पर अनेक बंधन हैं, पर यहाँ महिलाएं राजनीति में शीर्ष पदों पर हैं ।

[Ambijat]

May be using my Preoccupied mind
I am not saying that we can not compete China but all i know that under ******* like Pranab, Sibbal and Chidambram this is a dream nearly impossible to achieve.
We are far ahead of China being democratic but we are still lagging patriots at ruling positions.

Please don't call names, you have already made very good points try to omit if you can.
Thanks!

[rekhasmriti]

hmmmmmmm

indeed good piece of information

never a democratic country made big in global market
coz in democracy so many things involved

in Communism not

but is that Democracy is real that concern of India----or something else

free will----- is the most important fundamental human right


but again----if u wanna make big---kahin toh compromise karna padega

now it depends-----what is ur ( INDIA) prioprity---to make in global market------freedom to its people







Sir,

Whenever we compare India and China, we never fail to highlight about Indian Democracy and its advantages. But may be its not bad to look at the other side coin.

I read an article last month. I hope people would not mind my copy paste. I feel its related to the topic and could be a good reading for others.





Australia's next big problem: India's democracy

Excerpt from the article:

The Goldilocks scenario was based on the assumption that India would follow much the same path of industrialisation and urbanisation as China is and the likes of Japan, Taiwan and Korea did. They, in turn, travelled much the same road as the US and Europe had a century or two ago, experiencing massive restructuring, productivity growth and wealth creation as their societies were transformed by the growth of cities and moving up the value chain from being primarily agrarian.

There's one big difference though – India is a democracy. It is arguable that no country has undergone such a revolution as a genuine democracy. The leap involved in a populous nation industrialising tends to involve plenty of hard and nasty stuff as the status quo is overturned – land being cleared of peasants, established rent seekers replaced by a new order, societies uprooted and overturned.


The established Asian economic powers weren't democracies when they passed through that stage and China definitely isn't now. Universal suffrage remains a relatively recent phenomenon, post-dating the European and American industrial revolutions. The US might have come closest to it, but only a minority of Americans had the vote (women and blacks were excluded just for starters) as it absorbed “your tired, your poor” and created wealth in various dark mills.

To state the obvious, India is different. By most reckonings of the standard development curve, India is travelling somewhere between 15 and 20 years behind China. Of particular interest to Australia, its steel intensity has barely started to take off. If India was to follow the Chinese example, the economic benefits would be massive, lifting hundreds of millions of people out of extreme poverty. It's been expressed in various ways, but Deng Xiaoping arguably did more to alleviate poverty than all the world's NGOs, charities and United Nations agencies combined.
Krishna knows India urgently needs to follow the established pattern. Cheap labor certainly is exploited in the social sense, but has scarcely begun to be in the economic sense – the poor are just exploited and kept in their place.

Increasingly fractured and corrupt politics failing to deal with India's enormous challenges now means the nation is being set up for greater crises as its population boom rolls on. The pro-India cheer squad cites its demographics and democracy as reasons for the Indian tiger to eventually overtake the Chinese dragon, but while China's one-child policy has become a demographic problem and it suffers from not having enough democracy, India's quickly growing population and rampant democracy may prove even more dangerous.
Should the day arrive when one brand or another of authoritarianism – nationalistic, religious or military – is able to seize control through gross government failure, lack of demand for Australian coking coal could be the least of the region's concerns.


Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/business/australias-next-big-problem-indias-democracy-20120521-1z08u.html#ixzz1zo4nSGmU

[rekhasmriti]

u got it ----China was never been a colony-----although it has its own civil wars



but never a colony

watch a movie-----1911 based on revolution in China


bhale hi koi colony na ho-----but toh unhone bhi bahut khayee


then they reach here - Peoples' republic of China





Was china a colony too? I dont think so. They might have some influence from some power but it was never a colony (except Hongkong).

[rekhasmriti]

i don't think so



चीन भी अंग्रेजों की कालोनी थी (प्रोंक्स रूप तें )भाई , पर शाशन उड़े के राजा के-ए हाथ में था , जो अंग्रेजां की गेल करे होड़ अनुबंध के अनुसार शाशन करे था ,नाम मात्र का | अर उस टेम चीन आज के चीन तें आधा था , बाकी ते साम्यवादी शाशन ने कई देशां पे कब्जा कर के ने यु इतना बड्डा क़र्या होड़ स |

[rekhasmriti]

hmmmm


so china was also the victim of Colonilazation--- i was not awsre of that

need to check this ------ i once read China and Japan---2 nations never a colony-----

i did read about 1911 revolution on youtube---seen movie as well--- so i have some clue regarding same




Yes, Major portion of China also remained a colony of the British, German, French, Americans, Dutch's, Portuguese etc. for a considerable period of time.

This happened like this. China was a clossed country for outside people from the ancient times; but after the British East India Company emerged as a political power in India in the second half of the 18th century onwards, their frequent trade tours to and fro from India to England through see routes led to their interference in Chinese affairs where the British ships used to take coal and water like the port of Shanghai. then, after the two opium wars [c.1842-60 AD], China had to accede to the British demand to open its mainland, rivers routes and ports and due to US intervention had to agree to adopt open door policy i.e China was opened for all the Western colonists and imperialists including US, Subsequently these colonists carved out their own spheres of influence in the important centres of trade and commerce where their own laws, not the Chinese, was enforced. These new rulers exploited China till 1911 when under the leadership of Dr. Sun Yat Sen, people of China rose in revolt and drew the foreigners out of China.

After the death of Dr. Sun Yat Sen's death taking advantage of the weaknesses of the leadership of Chang Kai Sek, Chao-en -Lae and Maot-se-tung organised a long March of the Red armies in the mainland of China and drew Chang Kai Sek away to Formosa in 1949. Since, then China is under one party, one flag and one leader type of government of the Communists.

This makes clear that China is free from the imperialist forces since 1911 whereas India attained truncated freedom in 1947. This crucial gap of 36 years must have made great difference in the developments in various fields in the two countries.

Thanks

[DrRajpalSingh]

hmmmm
so china was also the victim of Colonilazation--- i was not awsre of that
need to check this ------ i once read China and Japan---2 nations never a colony-----
i did read about 1911 revolution on youtube---seen movie as well--- so i have some clue regarding same

Fine, as usual you are bent upon not accepting the historical narration because, perhaps, you have seen some pictures about China. The colonists divided China's major trading centres and ports among themselves and forced the then ruling dynasty not to interfere in the affairs of these 'colonies' in any manner.The administrative control on these colonies after sigining the treaty of open door policy by the Chinese and the imperialists, Chinese law ceased to have its enforcement in these regions and it completely rested with the imperialists till 1911. Thus the subjugation of the Chinese was complete and the imperialists exploited these areas to the hilt.

Nonetheless, we shall wait results of your 'check[ing]' and eagerly await what new comes out of 'some clues' exclusively possessed by you!!!

Thanks.

[DrRajpalSingh]

hmmmmmmm

indeed good piece of information

never a democratic country made big in global market
coz in democracy so many things involved

in Communism not

but is that Democracy is real that concern of India----or something else

free will----- is the most important fundamental human right


but again----if u wanna make big---kahin toh compromise karna padega

now it depends-----what is ur ( INDIA) prioprity---to make in global market------freedom to its people

Then what are your comments about position of USA, France, UK in the international trade and commerce. All of these countries are democracies of longstanding.

[DrRajpalSingh]

भारत और चीन : कुछ और तथ्य

१. चीन में लोकतंत्र की व्यवस्था है, परंतु चीन की कम्यूनिस्ट पार्टी के तत्वाधान में है । वहाँ स्थानीय निकायों के सीधे चुनाव होते हैं, तथा राष्ट्रीय पीपुल्स कांग्रेस के अप्रत्यक्ष रूप में, ठीक वैसे ही जैसे हमारे यहाँ जिला परिषद के चुनाव होते हैं । विरोधाभास यह है कि भारत की उच्चतम लोकतांत्रिक परंपराओं के बाद भी इसका प्रधानमंत्री प्रत्यक्ष निर्वाचित नहीं है ।
...........
.......... ।

For very good post we owe thanks to you.

But a minor curiosity: Do grassroot communists/primary voters of China directly elect Prime Minister and President of China! I do not think it is so in China.

[malikdeepak1]

China imposes things on its citzens and implements them, India proposes and retracts back everytime. This is one difference(+ve/-ve we can analyze).

We have so much of man power, but how many are really willing to work? It is the passion of people that matters. Japan is very small nation as compared to us, but much more developed!

[DrRajpalSingh]

China imposes things on its citzens and implements them, India proposes and retracts back everytime. This is one difference(+ve/-ve we can analyze).

We have so much of man power, but how many are really willing to work? It is the passion of people that matters. Japan is very small nation as compared to us, but much more developed!

Friend,

You have rightly pointed out the need of developing patriotism and concern of the people in the welfare and development of the nation! Here rises the need of soul searching by us before pointing an accusing finger on anyone whether he/she is a common man or at the helm of affairs!

Thanks

[rekhasmriti]

in agreement



China imposes things on its citzens and implements them, India proposes and retracts back everytime. This is one difference(+ve/-ve we can analyze).

We have so much of man power, but how many are really willing to work? It is the passion of people that matters. Japan is very small nation as compared to us, but much more developed!

[ravinderjeet]

i don't think so


पहलम किम्मे सीख ले ,फेर थिन्किये , अर फेर लिखिए |

[Ambijat]

Fine, as usual you are bent upon not accepting the historical narration because, perhaps, you have seen some pictures about China. The colonists divided China's major trading centres and ports among themselves and forced the then ruling dynasty not to interfere in the affairs of these 'colonies' in any manner.The administrative control on these colonies after sigining the treaty of open door policy by the Chinese and the imperialists, Chinese law ceased to have its enforcement in these regions and it completely rested with the imperialists till 1911. Thus the subjugation of the Chinese was complete and the imperialists exploited these areas to the hilt.

Nonetheless, we shall wait results of your 'check[ing]' and eagerly await what new comes out of 'some clues' exclusively possessed by you!!!

Thanks.

चीन में स्थानीय निकायो के चुनावो को local people's congress कहते हैं । ये सीधे होते हैं जैसे ग्राम व नगर पालिका समकक्ष इकाइयो के सदस्य आदि । ये नियमित ५ वर्षो के अंतराल पर होते है । परंतु यही सदस्य आगे चलकर national people's congress मे मतदान करते हैं जहाँ राष्ट्रपति व सदन के नेता का चुनाव होता है । अंतर यही है चीन में विपक्ष की भुमिका नहीं है ।

[kapdal]

Myth No.1: There is no or low corruption in China

It is a common fallacy to consider absence of information/awareness as presence of fact. Just because we don't know about corruption in China doesn't mean China is not corrupt. As I said earlier, you need to scratch the surface to find the reality. Below is a link that sheds some light on corruption in China. The point is not at all to see who is more corrupt: China or India. Both are sufficiently corrupt and any silly patriotic notions shouldn't make us see ourselves in better light than we actually are. But the point is to negate the inane logic that the Chinese model of governance is like an anti-dote to corruption. Because it is not. Corruption in India is rampant because of the loopholes in our democractic setup, not because of presence of democracy. The authoritatian system makes China riper for corruption as much as it prevents those stories from coming to the fore. Like the below link says, "In China, among 100 government officials, 101 of them are corrupt"

http://www.alsosprachanalyst.com/economy/china-corrupt-government-officials-bo-xilai-scandal.html

[kapdal]

भारत और चीन : कुछ और तथ्य

१. चीन में लोकतंत्र की व्यवस्था है, परंतु चीन की कम्यूनिस्ट पार्टी के तत्वाधान में है । वहाँ स्थानीय निकायों के सीधे चुनाव होते हैं, तथा राष्ट्रीय पीपुल्स कांग्रेस के अप्रत्यक्ष रूप में, ठीक वैसे ही जैसे हमारे यहाँ जिला परिषद के चुनाव होते हैं । विरोधाभास यह है कि भारत की उच्चतम लोकतांत्रिक परंपराओं के बाद भी इसका प्रधानमंत्री प्रत्यक्ष निर्वाचित नहीं है ।


२. भारत मुद्रास्फीति के लगातार दबाव को २०१० से झेल रहा है तथा रिजर्व बैंक इसे नियंत्रित करने के लिए पिछले २ वर्षों से ब्याज दर को ५ से ८ प्रतिशत तक ले आया । चीन में इसके विपरीत घरेलु मांग को बढ़ाने के लिए लगातार ब्याज दर को कम कर रहा है । आज यह ५ प्रतिशत से नीचे है । चीन में दुपहिये वाहन अधिकतर बैटरी चलित हैं । भारत में एक से एक नई पैट्रोल आधारित मोटरसाइकिलें बाजार में आ रही हैं ।


३. चीन में उर्जा उत्पादन एक कीर्तीमान है । चीन का ३ गार्ज बाँध (यांग्सी नदी) २२,००० मेगावाट उत्पादन करने वाली अकेली परियोजना है । भारत में इसकी कल्पना मात्र ही की जा सकती है । यदि हम नेपाल के विकास के प्रति संवेदनशील होते तो शायद भारत भी ऐसा कुछ कर पाता ।


४. चीन में नस्लीय विविधता ना हो पर लोकसंस्कृति के आधार पर चीन में उतनी ही विविधता है जितने कि भारत में हिंदी भाषी क्षेत्र में पाई जाती है । चीन भारत की सांस्कृतिक विविधता के प्रति संवेदनशील है तथा इसे भारत के उच्चतम सभ्यता के प्रमाणों के रूप मे देखता है ।


५. भारत व चीन दोनो ही में मीडिया संवेदनात्मक भूमिका निभाते हैं जो कि परस्पर प्रतिस्पर्धा को जीवित रखते हैं । दोनो ही ओर से साकारात्मक रवैये की आवश्यकता है ।


६. चीन मे कानून का भय अतिगामी है तो भारत में प्राय: कानून नाम की चीज का ना होना आम शिकायत है ।


७. चीन मे आम आदमी का जीवन सुरक्षित है भारत में आम आदमी इस तथ्य को स्वीकार मुश्किल से ही कर पाता है ।


८. चीन में बुनियादी सुविधाएं जैसे शिक्षा , स्वास्थ्य आदि सभी को उपलब्ध हैं । भारत को इन अधिकारों को स्वीकार करने में ही ५० से अधिक वर्ष लग गये ।


९. चीन में महिलाएं पुरुषों के समान आर्थिक क्षेत्र में व्यापक रुप से कार्य कर रही हैं, परंतु चीन में महिलाएं राजनीति के क्षेत्र में नही के बराबर हैं । भारत में महिलाओं की आर्थिक भागीदारी पर अनेक बंधन हैं, पर यहाँ महिलाएं राजनीति में शीर्ष पदों पर हैं ।

1/ Point No. 2 is not sound in economic rationale. India is of course suffering from inflation and hence rates need to be raised. But the fact that China is cutting rates is not an indicator that it is in a good economic situation! There are fears of deflation in China due to an upsurge of debt. To be honest, such a comparison of monetary policies that are cyclical in nature is quite pointless. Any evidence of the petrol point? China is the biggest driver of oil demand growth, and it is because amongst other things, the demand for new oil based vehicles is very high there.

http://www.alsosprachanalyst.com/economy/china-in-deflation-and-how-to-reflate-it-at-all-costs.html

2/ Any evidence on point number 4,5,6,7 & 8? How are we supposed to find out about law and order/security in a country where the media is censored? I really wonder if this is from an email forward? China is notorious for not having any space for diversity within its country. There is ample evidence of their aggresive behavior towards internal regions not dominated by Han-Chinese (recent cases in Xinjiang and Tibet) as well as neighboring countries (South China Sea, Taiwan, Indian border, etc.) So the claim that they are sympathetic to diversity in India is quite unpalatable and sounds like some propaganda material from China. Same for claim on Chinese media.

[rekhasmriti]

regarding what?



पहलम किम्मे सीख ले ,फेर थिन्किये , अर फेर लिखिए |

[rekhasmriti]

USA , france although democratic

however they have entirely political system comparing 2 india

they all made big after worls war 2----

when there was no competition---they emerged out as winners--start exploring global markets and made

now situation is altogether different -------
today we are still developing------

n they are established

small incident in usa n france---impact deeply in world market

india is the largest democartic country-------india's system is so good

how come we couldn't make it that big in world market


sir ---whole thing point towards in appropriate political system

for which we are responsible---as it is democratic---govt is 4 d people-of the people and by the people

in asia itself we have to safe so strong competion------
we need to see---where we lack---

n that is too much interfernce ---in making economic policies

strong political system-------which has strong vision---think more about people

india n china ka comparison samjh mei aata ha-

according to you -china was also colony which got free soemwhere in 1911 n india in 1947





Then what are your comments about position of USA, France, UK in the international trade and commerce. All of these countries are democracies of longstanding.

[rekhasmriti]

ok----
Colony or colonilazation has different meaniing and instances in history----after going all that google stuff

need little help in understanding

EAst india company came to india---for trade--started selling n buying---building forts---signing treaties for their busniess--so at taht time coz our rulers signed so much biz deals with eAst India companies---borrowed money---were under debt-n all that jazz--till that time

1- WERE we the Colony of Britain---or just victim of bad biz deals made by our rulers-----as per my historians we call that period as COMPANY RAJ

After 1857 1st struggle of independence ----when india lost -
in 1858 as per facts ----india officially declared as part of Britain----under glorious rule of Queen ----then the term changed from COMPANY RAJ TO BRITISH RAJ

2- THAT WAS THE PERIOD WHEN INDIA BECAME COLONY OF BRITAIN ??????????


if part one was right---then yes in agreement that china was also the colony for some western powers or japan as well

else china was never a colony--leaving Hong Kong and Macau.......


Regards,



Fine, as usual you are bent upon not accepting the historical narration because, perhaps, you have seen some pictures about China. The colonists divided China's major trading centres and ports among themselves and forced the then ruling dynasty not to interfere in the affairs of these 'colonies' in any manner.The administrative control on these colonies after sigining the treaty of open door policy by the Chinese and the imperialists, Chinese law ceased to have its enforcement in these regions and it completely rested with the imperialists till 1911. Thus the subjugation of the Chinese was complete and the imperialists exploited these areas to the hilt.

Nonetheless, we shall wait results of your 'check[ing]' and eagerly await what new comes out of 'some clues' exclusively possessed by you!!!

Thanks.

[VirJ]

u got it ----China was never been a colony

Did I? I thought I knew it already. Sometime you amuse me too much.

[VirJ]

चाइना की हिस्टरी थोड़ी बहोत मेने भी बेर हे वहां विदेसी ताकतों के हक्श्तेप का माडा मोटा ज्ञान में भी ले रहा हूँ पर जो गुलामी की छाप हमारी मानसिकता पर अंग्रेजों ने छोड़ी हे वा चाइना पे इतनी ना हे. हमारी हार चीज़ अंग्रेजों की देई हुई हे सरे दफ्तर, आज़ादी, भाषा, रेलगाड़ी. मालगाड़ी सब कुछ. चाइना पे परोक्ष शाशन अन्ग्रेज़ं का नहीं था पर हाँ इनकी कई policies अंग्रेजाँ की बनओदी थी जिसको मानना उनकी मजबूरी थी. मेरा कहना बस यु था के गुलामी ने chinease को इतना परभावित नहीं करा जितना अपने ती. हार या बात तमने कोई भी भाई बता देगा जो चाइना गया हो हर ओदे लोगन के संपर्क में राया हो.

[VirJ]

भारत और चीन : कुछ और तथ्य

१. चीन में लोकतंत्र की व्यवस्था है, परंतु चीन की कम्यूनिस्ट पार्टी के तत्वाधान में है । वहाँ स्थानीय निकायों के सीधे चुनाव होते हैं, तथा राष्ट्रीय पीपुल्स कांग्रेस के अप्रत्यक्ष रूप में, ठीक वैसे ही जैसे हमारे यहाँ जिला परिषद के चुनाव होते हैं । विरोधाभास यह है कि भारत की उच्चतम लोकतांत्रिक परंपराओं के बाद भी इसका प्रधानमंत्री प्रत्यक्ष निर्वाचित नहीं है ।


२. भारत मुद्रास्फीति के लगातार दबाव को २०१० से झेल रहा है तथा रिजर्व बैंक इसे नियंत्रित करने के लिए पिछले २ वर्षों से ब्याज दर को ५ से ८ प्रतिशत तक ले आया । चीन में इसके विपरीत घरेलु मांग को बढ़ाने के लिए लगातार ब्याज दर को कम कर रहा है । आज यह ५ प्रतिशत से नीचे है । चीन में दुपहिये वाहन अधिकतर बैटरी चलित हैं । भारत में एक से एक नई पैट्रोल आधारित मोटरसाइकिलें बाजार में आ रही हैं ।

।

चीन में गाड़ी के पर्योग पर कई पर्तिबंद हे बड़े engine की गाड़ी आम आदमी नहीं ले सकता. वहां सरकारी नीतियां ऐसी हे के गाड़ी का पर्योग कम हो. हांगकांग में तो गाड़ी का खर्च उठाना इतना महँगा हे के आम आदमी सरकारी गाड़ी पर निर्भर रहता हे. चाइना में गाड़ी की खरीद भी सर्कार द्वारा नियंत्रित हे. इसके फायदे भी हे और नुकसान भी. तुलना सिर्फ कागच पर नहीं की जा सकती. भारत और चीन तो अलग दिशाओं में जा रहे हे मंजिल एक ही हे पर रास्ता अलग. जैसे की मेने पहले कहा था हमारा रास्ता कुछ हद तक अंग्रेजों ने तय कर दिया था और चाइना का किस्मत ने.


ये बात आपकी सची हे के चीन में भी लोकतंत्र हे पर एक ही पार्टी हे. उनका लोकतंत्र का ढांचा हमसे बहोत अलग हे

[rekhasmriti]

hahahahahaahahha

just returning favors bhaisab




Did I? I thought I knew it already. Sometime you amuse me too much.

[Ambijat]

चीन में मीडिया एवं भ्रष्टाचार


चीन में मीडिया पर सरकारी नियंत्रण है । परंतु चीन में इंटरनेट प्रयोग करने वाले औऱ twitter तथा facebook जैसी सेवाओं के चीनी संस्करण उपलब्ध हैं जिनका प्रयोग आम चीनी बहुतायत में करता है । भारत में इंटरनेट का प्रयोग करने वाले अभी चीन के पाँचवे हिस्से ही हैं । जाहिर ऐसे में मीडिया की पहुँच चीन में काफी अधिक है । सरकारी नियंत्रण अपने आप में किसी नकारात्मक तथ्य को स्थापित नहीं करता, खास कर जबकि भारतीय मीडिया निजी घरानो द्वारा खरीदा हुआ हो ।
भ्रष्टाचार एक नितांत समस्या है । चीन में यह एक चिंता का विषय है । परंतु सरकारी तंत्र में इसके लिए निरंतर प्रयास होते रहते हैं । हाल ही में बो शिलाई प्रकरण में काफी मुद्दे चर्चा में थे, उनमें भ्रष्टाचार एक था । बहरहाल चीन में भ्रष्टाचार के चलते कोई स्कूल या पुल का गिरना एक दूर की बात है । भारत में यह असंभव नहीं है ।

[Ambijat]

1/...There are fears of deflation in China due to an upsurge of debt. ...

2/ Any evidence on point number 4,5,6,7 & 8? How are we supposed to find out about law and order/security in a country where the media is censored? I really wonder if this is from an email forward? China is notorious for not having any space for diversity within its country. .....

point 1. deflation is a cause not consequence of rising debt in real terms! you can read more on that in Keynesian Economics.

point2. evidences are given in courts.

Suggested reading: Friend, enemy, rival, investor (http://www.economist.com/node/21557764?scode=3d26b0b17065c2cf29c06c010184c684), The Economist, Jun 30th 2012.

[vicky84]

Suggested reading: Friend, enemy, rival, investor (http://www.economist.com/node/21557764?scode=3d26b0b17065c2cf29c06c010184c684), The Economist, Jun 30th 2012.
I read that article couple of days back. There is no doubt that China is master in manufacturing. Even Indian trade with China is not balanced.

Chinese export to India are more than Indian export to China. The problem with India is governance.

We need a overhaul in labour laws and in manufacturing sector. Also Indian infrastructure is poor which means its not favourable to manufacturing.

Indian government recognise it but again the progress is very slow which keeps millions of Indian unemployed.

According to my understanding, first bring a major reforms in Indian government ways of doing business.

Get rid of babus and the power concentration. Also get rid of parallel bureaucracy. There is so much overlap in government departements that it causes billion of dollars loss to country.

This topic is very big. It involves political will + other factors. Unless you don't sort them out, people will continue to suffers.

There will be a gross waste of human resources and natural resources. And India will never be able to get rid of poverty and corruption.

[anilsangwan]

This topic is very big. It involves political will + other factors. Unless you don't sort them out, people will continue to suffer.

........... and will continue comparing India with China, while Chinese will be busy progressing further ! :p

[DrRajpalSingh]

I read that article couple of days back. There is no doubt that China is master in manufacturing. Even Indian trade with China is not balanced.

Chinese export to India are more than Indian export to China. The problem with India is governance.

We need a overhaul in labour laws and in manufacturing sector. Also Indian infrastructure is poor which means its not favourable to manufacturing.

Indian government recognise it but again the progress is very slow which keeps millions of Indian unemployed.

According to my understanding, first bring a major reforms in Indian government ways of doing business.

Get rid of babus and the power concentration. Also get rid of parallel bureaucracy. There is so much overlap in government departements that it causes billion of dollars loss to country.

This topic is very big. It involves political will + other factors. Unless you don't sort them out, people will continue to suffers.

There will be a gross waste of human resources and natural resources. And India will never be able to get rid of poverty and corruption.

Very good analysis presented in the quoted article. Thanks for sharing.

[DrRajpalSingh]

........... and will continue comparing India with China, while Chinese will be busy progressing further ! :p

Friend,

You will appreciate that without just understanding of the objective conditions at the ground level no reform has happened anywhere. So comparisons are necessary component for devising newer policies and programmes everywhere.

Thanks.

[DrRajpalSingh]

ok----
Colony or colonilazation has different meaniing and instances in history----after going all that google stuff

need little help in understanding

EAst india company came to india---for trade--started selling n buying---building forts---signing treaties for their busniess--so at taht time coz our rulers signed so much biz deals with eAst India companies---borrowed money---were under debt-n all that jazz--till that time

1- WERE we the Colony of Britain---or just victim of bad biz deals made by our rulers-----as per my historians we call that period as COMPANY RAJ

After 1857 1st struggle of independence ----when india lost -
in 1858 as per facts ----india officially declared as part of Britain----under glorious rule of Queen ----then the term changed from COMPANY RAJ TO BRITISH RAJ

2- THAT WAS THE PERIOD WHEN INDIA BECAME COLONY OF BRITAIN ??????????


if part one was right---then yes in agreement that china was also the colony for some western powers or japan as well

else china was never a colony--leaving Hong Kong and Macau.......


Regards,

You must appreciate that commenting on historical events one has to study books first to equip oneself to qualify to comment on such issues!! To clear your misgivings pay visit to some good library in your vicinity and then start commenting; it would be better for healthy discussion !!!

[anilsangwan]

Friend,

You will appreciate that without just understanding of the objective conditions at the ground level no reform has happened anywhere. So comparisons are necessary component for devising newer policies and programmes everywhere.

Thanks.

Only if someone in the power considers such comparisons and acts are based on them? Do you think Montek Singh Ahluwalia (वो पैंतीस लाख के टट्टी घर आला जुन्गड़) will give you a call to discuss the outcome of this thread?

Did he or this govt consider the ground reality while deciding the threshold of Rs 32 for declaring a poor? रहण दो सर...!

[vicky84]

Montek Singh Ahluwalia (वो पैंतीस लाख के टट्टी घर आला जुन्गड़)

Shame on him!! How come he can send 35 lakhs on just toilet whereas he justifies 25 RS per day is enough for survival. Planning commission reports are poorely framed and does not depicts the reality. Such a gross wastage of public money.

[ravinderjeet]

राजा कदे जोहड़ जंगल जाया करें | वे सोने की परांत में आपणी तशरीफ़ धरया करें | वो-ए मोंटेके ने करया स | इब्ब कोए गरीब स ते उहमे मोंटेके आर क:फेर मोहने का के कसूर | ये या इनके माँ बाप पकिस्तान तें लांडे -बूचे आये थे | इब्ब देख ल्यो आज देश ने हांकन लाग रे सें |

[DrRajpalSingh]

Friends, See another face of China as per the link below:

Rediff.com (http://www.rediff.com/) » News (http://www.rediff.com/news) » SHOCKING: The most repressive nations in the world
http://imads.rediff.com/0/default/empty.gif (http://ads.rediff.com/5c/innewsSS.rediff.com/news-slideshows.htm/1188551189/Position1/default/empty.gif/4d6370504e552f36762f6b4141703759)

SHOCKING: The most repressive nations in the world

Last updated on: July 9, 2012 08:34


China:
More than half of the world's people living in countries that are "not free," according to Freedom House, live in China.
In the wake of political upheavals in the Middle East and North Africa in 2011, Chinese authorities intensified measures to repress dissent. Internet censorship and the detention of human rights and democracy activists increased, and leading human rights lawyers, activists, and religious leaders have been harassed, disbarred, and "disappeared."
The Chinese Communist Party maintains a tight grip on political power, depriving citizens of the right to elect their leaders, participate in political opposition, and hold their government accountable for its misdeeds.

However, intra-party friction in recent months, including the ousting of former Chongqing party secretary Bo Xilai, the possible demotion of security chief Zhou Yongkang, and the international showdown over the fate of blind activist and self-taught lawyer Chen Guangcheng may be signs that the door for reform is opening, the report says.''

[rekhasmriti]

u r absolutely right-

so many times---u won't find authentic info in google as well

libraray------i was last time in college

now again ----no time

but waise sir g ------

jo miene mention kiya bout colony---was i wrong??????????

aap ne toh i believe bahut sari books padhi hongi

please help me understand------kindly clear my curiousity ---of this colony wala thing






You must appreciate that commenting on historical events one has to study books first to equip oneself to qualify to comment on such issues!! To clear your misgivings pay visit to some good library in your vicinity and then start commenting; it would be better for healthy discussion !!!

[amankadian]

u r absolutely right-

so many times---u won't find authentic info in google as well

libraray------i was last time in college

now again ----no time

but waise sir g ------

jo miene mention kiya bout colony---was i wrong??????????

aap ne toh i believe bahut sari books padhi hongi

please help me understand------kindly clear my curiousity ---of this colony wala thing


there were few colonies (Hong-kong , Shanghai, Amoy and two more )

[DrRajpalSingh]

u r absolutely right-

so many times---u won't find authentic info in google as well

libraray------i was last time in college

now again ----no time

but waise sir g ------

jo miene mention kiya bout colony---was i wrong??????????

aap ne toh i believe bahut sari books padhi hongi

please help me understand------kindly clear my curiousity ---of this colony wala thing


Your two questions were:
1- WERE we the Colony of Britain--------as per my historians we call that period as COMPANY RAJ

After 1857 1st struggle of independence ----in 1858 ------- the term changed from COMPANY RAJ TO BRITISH RAJ

2- THAT WAS THE PERIOD WHEN INDIA BECAME COLONY OF BRITAIN ??????????

Indian subjugation started with the signing of the Treaties of Allhabad in 1765 between the then Mughal Emperor, Shah Alum II and the nominee of the British East India Trading Company [ after the battle of Buxur 1764 A.D.] granting Dewani Rights to the British over the Bengal subah comprising Bengal {including today's Bangladesh}, Bihar, Jharkhand and Orissa . In 1773 with the passage of Regulating Act by the British Parliament the British Company's control over Bengal subha was recognised by the British Government as their possession. Thus started the era of Company rule in India which continued to expand till the annexation of the Punjab in 1849 and taking over the control of Oudh in 1856.
This was followed by the events of 1857 which culminated in the uprooting of the British East India Regime and in November 1859 last Governor General appointed by the British East India Company was re-designated as Governor General and Viceroy of the British Empire in India. In addition to other important changes, the British Queen was designated as Empress of the British Empire in India. To rule over India, a new post was created as Secretary of State for India in the British Cabinet who was assisted by certain members of Parliamentary committee. To cut the long story short
the proclamation of the Queen-Empress Victoria was an attempt to deceive the world oipinion and the Indian public and materially, as far as India's position as colony of the British was concerned, no changes were made. Just names and titles changed of the rulers. It is other thing that in due course of time, due to interference of the British Parliament certain changes were made in the administration of India but the nature of the British imperialism remained same till the last i.e. 1947.
PS: Even in the British East India Trading Company founded in December 1600 A D, the then British Queen had bought certain number of shares in her individual shares that is why the royal patronage to the trading company which subsequently succeeded in carving out a big British empire was never wanting!

Perhaps this is sufficient for you to understand that India remained a colony of the British from later half of the 18th century to first half of the 20th century. Names changed of the ruling elite from Company Raj to British dominion but exploitation persisted as usual.

[kapdal]

point 1. deflation is a cause not consequence of rising debt in real terms! you can read more on that in Keynesian Economics.

point2. evidences are given in courts.

Suggested reading: Friend, enemy, rival, investor (http://www.economist.com/node/21557764?scode=3d26b0b17065c2cf29c06c010184c684), The Economist, Jun 30th 2012.

Sir,

Not sure this is a response to what - "deflation is a cause not consequence of rising debt in real terms!". My point was and still remains that China needs to cut rates possibly because of the deflationary pressures coming from its own debt situation. I say possibly because you never know what is true in case of China. Unfortunately, my day job requires me to be aware of depressing topics like these and it is quite likely that Q2 GDP print for China expected this week will reconfirm that China is slowly down. Now, it is anyone's guess that it is a cyclical slowdown or are indication of bigger problems. We can spend years guessing this as China is notorious for fudging, whether it is products or data.

I hope you didn't mean point no.2. Academics know better than anyone else that a strong thesis needs supporting evidence, otherwise it is just a random claim. A country notorious for its human rights abuses and widespread cases of suppression of non Han Chinese people - where is there any evidence that common man is secure there? Being secure in Beijing is not same as being secure in China. Similarly, China is far from making health and education available to all. If you want to look at inspiration for freedom, health and education, look at Europe, Scandinavia, or even UK. Seeking inspiration from China on these is like a blind person looking for eye donation from another blind person.

[kapdal]

चीन में मीडिया एवं भ्रष्टाचार


चीन में मीडिया पर सरकारी नियंत्रण है । परंतु चीन में इंटरनेट प्रयोग करने वाले औऱ twitter तथा facebook जैसी सेवाओं के चीनी संस्करण उपलब्ध हैं जिनका प्रयोग आम चीनी बहुतायत में करता है । भारत में इंटरनेट का प्रयोग करने वाले अभी चीन के पाँचवे हिस्से ही हैं । जाहिर ऐसे में मीडिया की पहुँच चीन में काफी अधिक है । सरकारी नियंत्रण अपने आप में किसी नकारात्मक तथ्य को स्थापित नहीं करता, खास कर जबकि भारतीय मीडिया निजी घरानो द्वारा खरीदा हुआ हो ।
भ्रष्टाचार एक नितांत समस्या है । चीन में यह एक चिंता का विषय है । परंतु सरकारी तंत्र में इसके लिए निरंतर प्रयास होते रहते हैं । हाल ही में बो शिलाई प्रकरण में काफी मुद्दे चर्चा में थे, उनमें भ्रष्टाचार एक था । बहरहाल चीन में भ्रष्टाचार के चलते कोई स्कूल या पुल का गिरना एक दूर की बात है । भारत में यह असंभव नहीं है ।

You don't need buildings falling to prove corruption - there could be inferior plumbing, wiring, plaster, overinvoicing, etc. etc. Anyways, since you said it so specifically, I just put instances of 2 rather famous cases where actually buildings allegedly collapsed due to corrupt practises. It is quite likely that these cases are in public domain as they are too big to hide. Absence of information is not a proof of absence of fact.
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1807137,00.html
http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2010/04/22/property-executives-get-life-in-shanghai-building-collapse-case/

Talking about Chinese social networking completely misses the point here. People will use what is available. Of course China has a growing middle class and undoubtedly they will use internet. That says nothing about the freedom of the media. It is a bit like British empire claiming pre-independence that Indians were using British manufactured cloth en-masse, so there was no case for trade based oppression of India. State controlled media is nothing different from a king's announcement makers, you will only hear one side of the story from them, the side state wants you to hear.

[DrRajpalSingh]

You don't need buildings falling to prove corruption - there could be inferior plumbing, wiring, plaster, overinvoicing, etc. etc. Anyways, since you said it so specifically, I just put instances of 2 rather famous cases where actually buildings allegedly collapsed due to corrupt practises. It is quite likely that these cases are in public domain as they are too big to hide. Absence of information is not a proof of absence of fact.
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1807137,00.html
http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2010/04/22/property-executives-get-life-in-shanghai-building-collapse-case/

Talking about Chinese social networking completely misses the point here. People will use what is available. Of course China has a growing middle class and undoubtedly they will use internet. That says nothing about the freedom of the media. It is a bit like British empire claiming pre-independence that Indians were using British manufactured cloth en-masse, so there was no case for trade based oppression of India. State controlled media is nothing different from a king's announcement makers, you will only hear one side of the story from them, the side state wants you to hear.

Looks valid point to be taken note of made in last line!

[rekhasmriti]

ho sakta

may be well r looking ( specially me) at one side of coin



You don't need buildings falling to prove corruption - there could be inferior plumbing, wiring, plaster, overinvoicing, etc. etc. Anyways, since you said it so specifically, I just put instances of 2 rather famous cases where actually buildings allegedly collapsed due to corrupt practises. It is quite likely that these cases are in public domain as they are too big to hide. Absence of information is not a proof of absence of fact.
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1807137,00.html
http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2010/04/22/property-executives-get-life-in-shanghai-building-collapse-case/

Talking about Chinese social networking completely misses the point here. People will use what is available. Of course China has a growing middle class and undoubtedly they will use internet. That says nothing about the freedom of the media. It is a bit like British empire claiming pre-independence that Indians were using British manufactured cloth en-masse, so there was no case for trade based oppression of India. State controlled media is nothing different from a king's announcement makers, you will only hear one side of the story from them, the side state wants you to hear.

[DrRajpalSingh]

ho sakta

may be well r looking ( specially me) at one side of coin

Ho sakata nahin; vastava mein China mein corruption ko purge karane kee kai baar muhim chal chuki hai.!

[Ambijat]

A building that collapsed because of earthquake, rescues your argument. What a pity.


You don't need buildings falling to prove corruption - there could be inferior plumbing, wiring, plaster, overinvoicing, etc. etc. Anyways, since you said it so specifically, I just put instances of 2 rather famous cases where actually buildings allegedly collapsed due to corrupt practises. It is quite likely that these cases are in public domain as they are too big to hide. Absence of information is not a proof of absence of fact.
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1807137,00.html
http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2010/04/22/property-executives-get-life-in-shanghai-building-collapse-case/



Chinese engineering marvel one need not evidence, but a visit to Shanghai.

[Ambijat]

.......... king's announcement makers, you will only hear one side of the story from them, the side state wants you to hear.

This is again a mere presentation of hypothesis, you are simply not aware of the fact the degree of criticism that Chinese media carries against the state and the party when it comes to certain (of course not all) the issues.

The real problem is that most of the readers have practically no access to Chinese media because of the language barrier. And, whatever is received is through the western media, which of course have their vested interest against China.

China is changing, even though slow! the point to be seen is this largely.

[kapdal]

A building that collapsed because of earthquake, rescues your argument. What a pity.



Chinese engineering marvel one need not evidence, but a visit to Shanghai.

There is not much to debate if you won't provide evidence for your arguments and ridicule others arguments on preconceived notions without looking at merit. It was not one building that collapsed but a series of school buildings that collapsed. If you google for china school Collapse Scandal, you will see find plenty of news about it. People of Sichuan province revolted against authorities on this. The other case was where the building collapsed without any earthquake. It is out in open as someone has been jailed for it. So basically even people of china aren't going to say that we don't have cases of building collapsing due to corruption.

The point about shanghai is besides the point. We were discussing corruption and not engineering. You can build engineering marvels with corrupt practises. Bofors was a very good gun, even if the gun deal itself was corrupt. I dont have an axe to grind for or against china. Its cities are engineering marvels indeed, but so what?

[kapdal]

This is again a mere presentation of hypothesis, you are simply not aware of the fact the degree of criticism that Chinese media carries against the state and the party when it comes to certain (of course not all) the issues.

The real problem is that most of the readers have practically no access to Chinese media because of the language barrier. And, whatever is received is through the western media, which of course have their vested interest against China.

China is changing, even though slow! the point to be seen is this largely.

I don't claim to be fully aware, but I am doing better than taking lessons from Chinese propaganda machines. I will laugh at someone saying Indian media is free of issues. But it is a completely different proposition, to assume state owned and controlled and censored media as doing free and fair reporting. It is a country of one point two billion people. There is govt at centre, then at province level, then at council and village level. There is media at different levels. Of course, media at a more powerful level can criticise govt at less powerful level. Sometimes it is directed to do so. There is politics at all levels and whosoever can will use media. But the crux is that is media even theoretically free to report anything critical of govt on crunch issues. Answer is a big no. It has been seen during tiananmen, then SARS, or Tibet or xinjing cases. The problem with Indian media is that it has lost its moral compass in the over commercialisation. Silver lining is that at least it is theoretically free and good men can still deliver good content. It is not fully free and in many cases it exercises self censorship to be on right side of powers to be. But yeah, I will take it any day over china.

[Ambijat]

You can build engineering marvels with corrupt practices......I dont have an axe to grind for or against china. Its cities are engineering marvels indeed, but so what?

Axe Grinding!.....That's what you have been doing right from your first post.

No body conceives here about China, if bad buildings and good buildings both are the cases of corruption then corruption and engineering have no functional relationship, that is why I said you need not cite a collapse of a building to support your argument.

Does the Indian media entertains Chinese propaganda? You can find plenty of Indian articles that have acknowledged Chinese investment in infrastructure. By the way which evidence would you like to have? A heresay or a news or a blog! I have already posted one for you. Blogs are not taken as authentic.

[kapdal]

Axe Grinding!.....That's what you have been doing right from your first post.

.

Unfortunate that you think so. I have no desire to debate further.

[Ambijat]

भारत और चीन की तुलना प्रोफेसर अमर्त्य सेन की नजर में
प्रोफेसर सेन की कक्षा में भारतीय व चीनी छात्र दोनो ही थे । उनसे पूछा गया कि आप क्या मानते हैं कौन ज्यादा बेहतर कर सकते हैं चीनी या भारतीय । प्रोफेसर सेन का जवाब था, दोनो ही कर सकते हैं । बशर्ते यह जो चीनी छात्र हैं अपनी चोंच को थोड़ा खोलना शुरु कर दें और ये जो भारतीय छात्र हैं ये अपनी चोंच को थोड़ा बंद रखना ।
हालांकि यह उन्होंने एक हास्य के रूप में टिप्पणी की थी लेकिन जो इस को गूढ़ मतलब समझते हैं उनके लिए यह जानना बहुत जरूरी है कि भारत में सतही ज्ञान के रूप में आजकल जो एमबीए, एमसीए आदि की डिग्रियाँ मिल रही हैं । उसी रास्ते पर इंजीनिरियिंग और मेडिकल की डिग्रीयाँ भी जा रही हैं । हमारी शिक्षा का स्तर दिन पर दिन गिर रहा है और हम अपने आप को सर्वज्ञ मानने लगे हैं । ये अंतर आने वाले समय में भारत और चीन के सबसे बड़े अंतर के रूप में उभरेगा ।

[anilsangwan]

हालांकि यह उन्होंने एक हास्य के रूप में टिप्पणी की थी लेकिन जो इस को गूढ़ मतलब समझते हैं उनके लिए यह जानना बहुत जरूरी है कि भारत में सतही ज्ञान के रूप में आजकल जो एमबीए, एमसीए आदि की डिग्रियाँ मिल रही हैं । उसी रास्ते पर इंजीनिरियिंग और मेडिकल की डिग्रीयाँ भी जा रही हैं । हमारी शिक्षा का स्तर दिन पर दिन गिर रहा है और हम अपने आप को सर्वज्ञ मानने लगे हैं । ये अंतर आने वाले समय में भारत और चीन के सबसे बड़े अंतर के रूप में उभरेगा ।

कपिल सिब्बल लाग रा स धोती सी धोवन ने एजुकेशन की ...!अगले दो तीन साल में जमा गुदड़ सा पाड़ देगा इस सिस्टम का ....!!

[Fateh]

The most important difference is that Chinese have national character where as we do not have, our pocket is in their hand, they have established their military bases all around our country and certainly they are batter prepared and have much superior war material, wrong or right but they have rule of law where as we have jungal raj, they have unity among their people which is supposed to be the strongest strength, where as we have all type of disunity. The fact is that china has gone much ahead of India and in future the gap will increase. At present there is no comparison.

[Ambijat]

यदि भारत व चीन के मध्य सीमा विवाद न होता तो क्या दोनो देशों के मध्य टकराव के बिंदु न होते । यह संकल्पना महत्वपूर्ण है चीन के वास्तविक मंतव्य को समझने के लिए । भारत चीन के मध्य विवाद सबसे पहले १९५६ में प्रकट हुआ जब भारत को यह पता चला कि चीन अक्साई चिन में सड़क निर्माण कर रहा है । हाल ही मे उस सड़क के निर्माण पूरे होने के ५० वर्ष मनाए गये । भारत को अक्साई चिन के बारे में जब पता चला तो चीन के समक्ष रवैया सख्त किया जिससे कि १९६२ का युद्ध हुआ । यदि हम इस विवाद के इतिहास को देखें तो पता चलता है कि चीन की विस्तारवादी नीति भारत के लिए चिंता का विषय १९५६ से ही थी । परंतु जब इस विवाद को अन्य विवादों की तुलना में देखें तो चीन के कुल १७ सीमा विवाद इस प्रकार के हैं जहाँ चीन ने क्षेत्रीय आदान प्रदान के आधार पर विवाद को सुलझाने का रास्ता अपनाया । जबकि भारत के समक्ष वह इससे अलग दृष्टिकोण रखता है । इससे यह पता चलता है कि चीन व्यवहारिकता का प्रयोग ज्यादा करता है, तथा भारतीय सैद्धांतिक पक्ष का प्रयोग ज्यादा करते हैं ।

[swaich]

यदि भारत व चीन के मध्य सीमा विवाद न होता तो क्या दोनो देशों के मध्य टकराव के बिंदु न होते । यह संकल्पना महत्वपूर्ण है चीन के वास्तविक मंतव्य को समझने के लिए । भारत चीन के मध्य विवाद सबसे पहले १८५६ में प्रकट हुआ जब भारत को यह पता चला कि चीन अक्साई चिन में सड़क निर्माण कर रहा है । हाल ही मे उस सड़क के निर्माण पूरे होने के ५० वर्ष मनाए गये । भारत को अक्साई चिन के बारे में जब पता चला तो चीन के समक्ष रवैया सख्त किया जिससे कि १९६२ का युद्ध हुआ । यदि हम इस विवाद एक इतिहास को देखें तो पता चलता है कि चीन की विस्तारवादी नीति भारत के लिए चिंता का विषय १९५६ से ही थी । परंतु जब इस विवाद को अन्य विवादों की तुलना में देखें तो चीन के कुल १७ सीमा विवाद इस प्रकार के हैं जहाँ चीन ने क्षेत्रीय आदान प्रदान के आधार पर विवाद को सुलझाने का रास्ता अपनाया । जबकि भारत के समक्ष वह इससे अलग दृष्टिकोण रखता है । इससे यह पता चलता है कि चीन व्यवहारिकता का प्रयोग ज्यादा करता है, तथा भारतीय सैद्धांतिक पक्ष का प्रयोग ज्यादा करते हैं ।

It might be unfair to totally blame China for the border disputes and the ensuing 1962 Sino-Indian war.

India inherited a border demarcated by the British but which was in many places disputed by China. Further Nehru chose a strategy of sending in regular patrols and beefed up military presence in the disputed regions - also known as the Forward Policy. Additionally India's act of sheltering the Tibetans and their leader Dalai Lama was also not seen positively by the Chinese. China saw these as attempts on its territorial integrity and India's expansionist designs and the result was the 1962 war.

There was a lot of mistrust and a lack of ability from both sides to peacefully resolve the issues. This distrust has continued to this day and the two countries have engaged in shadow boxing in many regions of the world. The most recent incident was in the South China Sea when India publicly owned gas corporations had license to explore oil in a disputed region controlled by Vietnam but later backed out due to Chinese pressure.

[DrRajpalSingh]

भारत और चीन की तुलना --------- जानना बहुत जरूरी है कि भारत में सतही ज्ञान के रूप में आजकल जो एमबीए, एमसीए आदि की डिग्रियाँ मिल रही हैं । उसी रास्ते पर इंजीनिरियिंग और मेडिकल की डिग्रीयाँ भी जा रही हैं । हमारी शिक्षा का स्तर दिन पर दिन गिर रहा है और हम अपने आप को सर्वज्ञ मानने लगे हैं । ये अंतर आने वाले समय में भारत और चीन के सबसे बड़े अंतर के रूप में उभरेगा ।

Friend
It is wrong to assume that all Higher education degree holders like MBA, MCA, MBBS or Engineering degree have shallow knowledge or are inferior to anyone least of all the Chinese. Many quality educational institutes in India are producing highly qualified and well equipped with latest knowledge of their respective fields. They have proved their worth time and again in every nook and corner of the world and shown that Indians are second to none.

Yes, with the coming up of several institutes in recent years has definitely lacking in basic infrastructure, Human resource which leads to compromising quality with quantity. This is real area of concern that how to bring them up to at least minimum standard and then to go on improving further. But there is no reason for unwarranted alarming on the issue.

Thanks

[aryasatyadev]

The most important difference is that Chinese have national character where as we do not have, our pocket is in their hand, they have established their military bases all around our country and certainly they are batter prepared and have much superior war material, wrong or right but they have rule of law where as we have jungal raj, they have unity among their people which is supposed to be the strongest strength, where as we have all type of disunity. The fact is that china has gone much ahead of India and in future the gap will increase. At present there is no comparison.





This is high time we should stop comparing India & China, we should be comparing ourselves with the developed countries & develop ourselves to be better than the big players. We all know that the reports coming from China are doctored one and can't be believed to be true. T
he Chinese people dont want to open up & show the world what can they do & what they deserve. Instead, they just prefer to be like a frog inside a well who things the well is his only world



However it is also a fact that, in the aftermath of the financial crisis, emerging market economies, led by China and India, kept world growth from collapsing. As Europe again teeters on the brink of disaster and the tepid US recovery lurches along, the growth slowdowns in China and India augur rough times ahead for the world economy.



What is needed in each country is a mirror image of the other. China needs more, well-targeted fiscal stimulus while India needs fiscal discipline. While these actions are diametrically opposed due to different circumstances in each country, they will have similar, positive effects. Fiscal policy, if executed well, could help stimulate private demand, boost business and consumer confidence and improve the effectiveness of monetary policy.

[Ambijat]

Friend
It is wrong to assume that all Higher education degree holders like MBA, MCA, MBBS or Engineering degree have shallow knowledge or are inferior to anyone least of all the Chinese. Many quality educational institutes in India are producing highly qualified and well equipped with latest knowledge of their respective fields. They have proved their worth time and again in every nook and corner of the world and shown that Indians are second to none.

Yes, with the coming up of several institutes in recent years has definitely lacking in basic infrastructure, Human resource which leads to compromising quality with quantity. This is real area of concern that how to bring them up to at least minimum standard and then to go on improving further. But there is no reason for unwarranted alarming on the issue.

Thanks




Nothing more need be said when our Prime Minister speaks

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh voices concern over quality of medical education (http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/prime-minister-manmohan-singh-voices-concern-over-quality-of-medical-education/1/203152.html)


Read more at: http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/prime-minister-manmohan-singh-voices-concern-over-quality-of-medical-education/1/203152.html

[Ambijat]

It might be unfair to totally blame China for the border disputes and the ensuing 1962 Sino-Indian war.

India inherited a border demarcated by the British but which was in many places disputed by China. Further Nehru chose a strategy of sending in regular patrols and beefed up military presence in the disputed regions - also known as the Forward Policy.........

China cannot be blamed, but China deceived us for when India due to its insurmountable problems was unable to focus on the issue of northern boundary question, the Britishers and the Pakistanis got China into the game by inducing them to consolidate its position north of Chitral and Hunza, thereby putting them in command over Aksai Chin.

[Ambijat]

This is high time we should stop comparing India & China, we should be comparing ourselves with the developed countries & develop ourselves to be better than the big players. We all know that the reports coming from China are doctored one and can't be believed to be true. ....

There are reports coming from China authored by the Indian establishment. At least you can lend credence to them. Our bilateral relations have grown leaps and bounds just because China is opening up. China is now India's largest trading partner with over $60 billion trade-mark and besides China is no maverick. Read this statement of Ms Clinton issued yesterday.

US and China pledge to co-operate on Asia (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-18807496)
BBC News, 12 July 2012

[DrRajpalSingh]

Nothing more need be said when our Prime Minister speaks

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh voices concern over quality of medical education (http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/prime-minister-manmohan-singh-voices-concern-over-quality-of-medical-education/1/203152.html)


Read more at: http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/prime-minister-manmohan-singh-voices-concern-over-quality-of-medical-education/1/203152.html



I have already mentioned the need of maintenance of minimum standards not only quality of medical education but all the fields of higher education. But this does not mean to undermine the contribution of AIIMS, PGIMS, IITs and various institutions in this field. Yes there is also scope for further improvement. Those who are at the helm of affairs and express concern must come out with concrete policy and programme to be adopted, otherwise who will bell the proverbial cat !!

[DrRajpalSingh]

It might be unfair to totally blame China for the border disputes and the ensuing 1962 Sino-Indian war.

India inherited a border demarcated by the British but which was in many places disputed by China. Further Nehru chose a strategy of sending in regular patrols and beefed up military presence in the disputed regions - also known as the Forward Policy........ China saw these as attempts on its territorial integrity and India's expansionist designs and the result was the 1962 war........................

Kindly share the highlights/ some of the features of the FORWARD POLICY adopted by India under Nehru. Thanks

[swaich]

Kindly share the highlights/ some of the features of the FORWARD POLICY adopted by India under Nehru. Thanks

From what I understand, it was the brainchild of one of Nehru's Kashmiri advisors. It consisted of India adopting an aggressive approach towards the disputed region - increased border patrols, setting up of outposts etc. This was done to check the Chinese resolve and preparedness for action in the disputed regions. The Chinese were spooked by it and decided to take the initiative.

Noted historian Neville Maxwell has written extensively about it.

[vicky84]

Let me add more points. We are spending very less into research compare to China and other developed countries. Our PM acknowledge that we are underspend in research. We have pool of talent but it does not get utilized properly. But again, I would not say that we do not have quality education. But more efforts are required to make it better. Make research more attractive profession. Proper rewards and investment need to be made.



Nothing more need be said when our Prime Minister speaks

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh voices concern over quality of medical education (http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/prime-minister-manmohan-singh-voices-concern-over-quality-of-medical-education/1/203152.html)


Read more at: http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/prime-minister-manmohan-singh-voices-concern-over-quality-of-medical-education/1/203152.html

[vicky84]

Just to substantiate my last post, Have a look at the data:

List of countries by research and development spending
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_research_and_development_spen ding




Rank
Country
Expenditures on R&D
(billions of US$ (http://www.jatland.com/wiki/US$), PPP (http://www.jatland.com/wiki/Purchasing_power_parity))
% of GDP (http://www.jatland.com/wiki/Gross_domestic_product) PPP
Year
Source


1
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a4/Flag_of_the_United_States.svg/22px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg.png United States (http://www.jatland.com/wiki/United_States)
405.3
2.7%
2011
[2] (http://www.jatland.com/forums/#cite_note-battelle-1)


2
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fa/Flag_of_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China.svg/22px-Flag_of_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China.svg.png China (http://www.jatland.com/wiki/China)
153.7
1.4%
2011
[2] (http://www.jatland.com/forums/#cite_note-battelle-1)


3
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/9e/Flag_of_Japan.svg/22px-Flag_of_Japan.svg.png Japan (http://www.jatland.com/wiki/Japan)
144.1
3.3%
2011
[2] (http://www.jatland.com/forums/#cite_note-battelle-1)


4
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Flag_of_Germany.svg/22px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png Germany (http://www.jatland.com/wiki/Germany)
69.5
2.3%
2011
[2] (http://www.jatland.com/forums/#cite_note-battelle-1)


5
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/09/Flag_of_South_Korea.svg/22px-Flag_of_South_Korea.svg.png South Korea (http://www.jatland.com/wiki/South_Korea)
44.8
3.0%
2011
[2] (http://www.jatland.com/forums/#cite_note-battelle-1)


6
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/c3/Flag_of_France.svg/22px-Flag_of_France.svg.png France (http://www.jatland.com/wiki/France)
42.2
1.9%
2011
[2] (http://www.jatland.com/forums/#cite_note-battelle-1)


7
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/ae/Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg/22px-Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg.png United Kingdom (http://www.jatland.com/wiki/United_Kingdom)
38.4
1.7%
2011
[2] (http://www.jatland.com/forums/#cite_note-battelle-1)


8
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/41/Flag_of_India.svg/22px-Flag_of_India.svg.png India (http://www.jatland.com/wiki/India)
36.1
0.9%
2011
[2] (http://www.jatland.com/forums/#cite_note-battelle-1)


9
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/cf/Flag_of_Canada.svg/22px-Flag_of_Canada.svg.png Canada (http://www.jatland.com/wiki/Canada)
24.3
1.8%
2011
[2] (http://www.jatland.com/forums/#cite_note-battelle-1)


10
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f3/Flag_of_Russia.svg/22px-Flag_of_Russia.svg.png Russia (http://www.jatland.com/wiki/Russia)
23.1
1.0%
2011
[2] (http://www.jatland.com/forums/#cite_note-battelle-1)

[vicky84]

PM says China overtaking Indian science, R&D; spending to double


http://in.news.yahoo.com/pm-says-china-overtaking-indian-science--r-d--spending-to-double.html

[DrRajpalSingh]

PM says China overtaking Indian science, R&D; spending to double


http://in.news.yahoo.com/pm-says-china-overtaking-indian-science--r-d--spending-to-double.html

Welcome announcement !

[Fateh]

This is high time we should stop comparing India & China, we should be comparing ourselves with the developed countries & develop ourselves to be better than the big players. We all know that the reports coming from China are doctored one and can't be believed to be true. T
he Chinese people dont want to open up & show the world what can they do & what they deserve. Instead, they just prefer to be like a frog inside a well who things the well is his only world




However it is also a fact that, in the aftermath of the financial crisis, emerging market economies, led by China and India, kept world growth from collapsing. As Europe again teeters on the brink of disaster and the tepid US recovery lurches along, the growth slowdowns in China and India augur rough times ahead for the world economy.



What is needed in each country is a mirror image of the other. China needs more, well-targeted fiscal stimulus while India needs fiscal discipline. While these actions are diametrically opposed due to different circumstances in each country, they will have similar, positive effects. Fiscal policy, if executed well, could help stimulate private demand, boost business and consumer confidence and improve the effectiveness of monetary policy.

My dear not only India, the whole world is comparing and talking about china, secondly being unreliable neighbor, we have more concern and certainly comparison is normal thought process.

[DrRajpalSingh]

From what I understand, it was the brainchild of one of Nehru's Kashmiri advisors. It consisted of India adopting an aggressive approach towards the disputed region - increased border patrols, setting up of outposts etc. This was done to check the Chinese resolve and preparedness for action in the disputed regions. The Chinese were spooked by it and decided to take the initiative.

Noted historian Neville Maxwell has written extensively about it.

Maxwell's theory of Indian aggressiveness is not treated seriously by most experts, as it is obvious thaat India had no inkling , leave aside intentions, of provoking aa coflict. Indian Prime Miinister,and Defence Minister were out of the country, the Chief of Staff on leave, a senior commander on a cruise on the fateful day when China invaded India in 1962.

If India was following 'FORWARD POLICY' as Neville Maxwell in his book ''India's China War'' makes one believe, how one would reconcile the above mentioned facts.

In reality it was a betrayal of faith on the part of China which had signed Panchsheel with India and unilaterally violated the agreement. The reasons may be further probed to find out answer to Why China Betrayed India. Wasn't so?

[swaich]

Maxwell's theory of Indian aggressiveness is not treated seriously by most experts, as it is obvious thaat India had no inkling , leave aside intentions, of provoking aa coflict.

Most of these experts are Indian or govt. backed and hence put the blame squarely on China. However if there was such a thing as Forward Policy, which is quite evident, we must not shy away from neglecting its effect on China.


Indian Prime Miinister,and Defence Minister were out of the country, the Chief of Staff on leave, a senior commander on a cruise on the fateful day when China invaded India in 1962. If India was following 'FORWARD POLICY' as Neville Maxwell in his book ''India's China War'' makes one believe, how one would reconcile the above mentioned facts.
The policy and the events that led to the war had been set in motion for quite some time when the war broke. And if the PM and senior commanders were on leave on that day it further points towards the naivety of our military planners (bureaucrats) and lack of intelligence of our own agencies in gauging China's response to the policy. Our mandarins were of the opinion that China wont cause a full blown war since it was embroiled in Taiwan. But China quickly moved its supplies to the east and turned the tables on India.

Another example of our lack of military planning was that we failed to utilize our Air force which could have helped the ground forces. We were trying to test Chinese preparedness but lacked a contingency plan to counter China if the conflicts increased. That was a big folly by strategy makers.



In reality it was a betrayal of faith on the part of China which had signed Panchsheel with India and unilaterally violated the agreement. The reasons may be further probed to find out answer to Why China Betrayed India. Wasn't so?

Betrayal by China is too simplistic and one-sided a view. Panchsheel was signed 8 years before the war and a lot of water had passed under the bridge in those 8 years. The War was more a result of distrust amongst the nations increased by certain ill-thought policies rather than a simple case of betrayal.

[deshi-jat]

According to latest PEW Research Center’s survey; 82% Chinese believe country is going in right direction, while only 38% Indians have similar opinion. Also, 92% of Indians think Govt is at fault for economic gloominess


Let me add more points. We are spending very less into research compare to China and other developed countries. Our PM acknowledge that we are underspend in research. We have pool of talent but it does not get utilized properly. But again, I would not say that we do not have quality education. But more efforts are required to make it better. Make research more attractive profession. Proper rewards and investment need to be made.

[vicky84]

Also, 92% of Indians think Govt is at fault for economic gloominess

No doubt bureaucrats are largely responsible for economic gloominess. Power abuse and misue is quite prevalent . An IAS officer whose salary is mere 30-40k per month makes 100-200 crores in whole tenure. All this money comes through corruption and since there is so much power given to these public servants, there never hesitate to misuse it. Frist of all demolish this power concentration. And make other reforms in government machinery. Otherwise we will continue to suffer.

[anilsangwan]

तुलना हो गी हो तो मेंने भी बता दियो bhaiyo .... मनमोहन एर मोंटेक (दोनों जुंगड) केने निष्कर्ष भिजवा देंगे....!!

[Ambijat]

चीन में सांस्कृतिक क्रांति का सबसे व्यापक प्रभाव चीन में वामपंथी विचारधारा के प्रति विमोह के रूप में सामने आया । चीन ने १९७६ के बाद से ही एशियाई राष्ट्रों मे वामपंथी दलों को संसाधन व सहायता मे कटौती करनी शुरु कर दी । इसमें वियतनाम, कंबोडिया, इंडोनेशिया, भारत आदि देशों मे विपक्ष की भूमिका निभा रहे वामपंथी दल थे । इसके अतिरिक्त चीन ने पड़ौसी सौहार्द्र का नारा भी दिया, जिसका उद्देश्य था चीन की सांस्कृतिक क्रांति के बाद धूमिल हुई छवि को सुधारना था । चीन ने खास तौर पर आसियान के साथ इसी मंतव्य के साथ जुड़ाव को प्रारंभ किया था । १९९७ में चियांग जेमिन के नेतृत्व में इस नारे को और भी बुलंद किया गया । भारत ने इस दौरान २००३ में वाजपेयी सरकार के नेतृत्व में चीन के इस रवैये की तारीफ करते हुए विभिन्न क्षेत्रों में सहयोग की नींव डाली । इसी भावना के चलते कई क्षेत्रों मे भारत चीन मे सहयोग के अनूठे उदाहरण देखने को मिले । Great Nile Project एक ऐसा ही उदाहरण है जहाँ भारत व चीन ने मिलकर तेल क्षेत्रों के लिए बोली लगाई और सफल भी रहे । पर ये अब अपवाद ही रह गये हैं ।

[DrRajpalSingh]

चीन में सांस्कृतिक क्रांति का सबसे व्यापक प्रभाव चीन में वामपंथी विचारधारा के प्रति विमोह के रूप में सामने आया । चीन ने १९७६ के बाद से ही एशियाई राष्ट्रों मे वामपंथी दलों को संसाधन व सहायता मे कटौती करनी शुरु कर दी । इसमें वियतनाम, कंबोडिया, इंडोनेशिया, भारत आदि देशों मे विपक्ष की भूमिका निभा रहे वामपंथी दल थे । इसके अतिरिक्त चीन ने पड़ौसी सौहार्द्र का नारा भी दिया, जिसका उद्देश्य था चीन की सांस्कृतिक क्रांति के बाद धूमिल हुई छवि को सुधारना था । चीन ने खास तौर पर आसियान के साथ इसी मंतव्य के साथ जुड़ाव को प्रारंभ किया था । १९९७ में चियांग जेमिन के नेतृत्व में इस नारे को और भी बुलंद किया गया । भारत ने इस दौरान २००३ में वाजपेयी सरकार के नेतृत्व में चीन के इस रवैये की तारीफ करते हुए विभिन्न क्षेत्रों में सहयोग की नींव डाली । इसी भावना के चलते कई क्षेत्रों मे भारत चीन मे सहयोग के अनूठे उदाहरण देखने को मिले । Great Nile Project एक ऐसा ही उदाहरण है जहाँ भारत व चीन ने मिलकर तेल क्षेत्रों के लिए बोली लगाई और सफल भी रहे । पर ये अब अपवाद ही रह गये हैं ।

This shows that Foreign Policy of India is a constant flow whichever party/combination of parties hold power at the centre. This is the real strength of the nation. National interests are supreme and we hope that the present dispensation at the helm of affairs will continue efforts to improve relations with China but not at the cost of national honor.

[DrRajpalSingh]

Most of these experts are Indian or govt. backed and hence put the blame squarely on China. However if there was such a thing as Forward Policy, which is quite evident, we must not shy away from neglecting its effect on China.
The policy and the events that led to the war had been set in motion for quite some time when the war broke. And if the PM and senior commanders were on leave on that day it further points towards the naivety of our military planners (bureaucrats) and lack of intelligence of our own agencies in gauging China's response to the policy. Our mandarins were of the opinion that China wont cause a full blown war since it was embroiled in Taiwan. But China quickly moved its supplies to the east and turned the tables on India.
Another example of our lack of military planning was that we failed to utilize our Air force which could have helped the ground forces. We were trying to test Chinese preparedness but lacked a contingency plan to counter China if the conflicts increased. That was a big folly by strategy makers.
Betrayal by China is too simplistic and one-sided a view. Panchsheel was signed 8 years before the war and a lot of water had passed under the bridge in those 8 years. The War was more a result of distrust amongst the nations increased by certain ill-thought policies rather than a simple case of betrayal.

Friend,

What Indians say carries no conviction with you because a foreigner has propounded anti India point of view.
Fantastic indeed!
Would anyone enlighten us what was India to gain from provoking a war with China anyway?

''Betrayal by China is not too simplistic and one-sided a view'' as you believe but it was the real and only fact.How let us try to understand.

It were Chinese imperatives that brought them to war, not Indian provocation. In other words, the factors that propelled China in the direction of conflict were beyond India's or say Nehru's control and related more to China's compulsions.

China had signed signed Panchsheel treaty with India in 1954 wherein its position in Tibet was accepted by India without even getting any term in favour of India given by them. This was a great concession to the Chinese and may be termed as a mistake on the part of Indian government of the day.

Then followed in quick succession Khampa revolt and the flight of Dalai Lama to India with many refugees. China accused India of instigating the Dalai Lama and objected to the asylum. Neither India had instigated Dalai Lama nor Indian Government could have refused asylum. But Indian Government did not allow a Tibetan Government-in-exile in India.
On the other hand, Nehru had been advocating to the world leaders to recognise the Communist China as legitimate China. But neither USA nor any other country listened to his plea! Then the US tried to checkmate China in Korea and Indo-China, led to making role of China Paranoid about her security.
On the other front Sino-Soviet differences came into the open in 1959 when the Soviet Government hasd repudiated the treaty they had signed with China on development of nuclear weapons and clashes took place between the two on their borders in 1962.
In the First week of August 1962 Indo-Soviet treaty on the manufacture of MiG-21 aircraft was Signed. In the last week of August, the Soviets told the Chinese government that they were going ahead with negotiatios for a Partial Test Ban Treaty. The Chinese took this as being aimed at checking their efforts to develop nuclear weapons. The Chinese were also upset that Afro-Asian countries were following India's line of seeking friendship and assistance from both USSR and USA, rather than Chinese line of keeping distance from both. By reducing India's stature, they hoped to have their line and leadership accepted by this group of nations.
Therefore the Chinese invasion was not due to India's so called forward policy. Rather, it was a reaction to a feeling of isolation, abandonment and frustration. Not being able to get the recognition of the US, a UN Seat, leadership of Afro-Asian countries, soviet support on the nuclear issue or the border dispute with India, a left ward turn took place in Chinese politics and accordingly adopted uncompromising and militant line in order to compel the world powers to make concessions to them.

But it is agreed that in spite of failure of the Chou En Lai - Nehru talks on the issues of mutual interest of the two countries in 1959, suitable military strengthening steps were not taken by India. This proved disastrous in October 1962 when China invaded India.

[Ambijat]

......but not at the cost of national honor. Nations are no singular personality. So, invoking it always reveals our insecurities towards dealing with China. Let the 1962, get out of our psyche and we must believe that no nation can demean India. Only then we would be able to handle China. Confidence....Self-confidence is the key to deal with China.

[swaich]

Friend,

What Indians say carries no conviction with you because a foreigner has propounded anti India point of view.
Fantastic indeed!

I could turn your argument around and say "You blindly trust Indian historians but do not give credence to foreign experts who have conducted excellent analysis" Wonderful Indeed.

Not only Maxwell many other historians have documented the forward policy conceived by Nehru and his close friend Menon. And these details only came out later since Indian govt. understandably supressed information about the war and only let out information that wouldnt make its mistakes visible. AG Noorani another noted historian has also blamed Nehru and his pal Krishna Menon for devising the ill-thought policy. Here's an extract below:


The important and explicit directive, from Nehru, in a 17-para memorandum, cited by Noorani in his book, says: "Both as flowing from our policy and as a consequence of our Agreement with China, this frontier should be considered a firm and definite one which is not open to discussion with anybody. There may be very minor points of discussion. Even these should not be raised by us."

Noorani, an expert on legal and constitutional issues, known for his study of the boundary issue, writes in the book, "India-China Boundary Problem. 1846-1947: History and Diplomacy", that "India unilaterally revised its official map. The legend 'boundary undefined' in the western (Kashmir) and middle sectors (Uttar Pradesh) in the official maps of 1948 and 1950 were dropped in the new map of 1954. A firm clear line was shown instead."http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2010-12-19/india/28271241_1_boundary-issue-indian-maps-new-maps

Nehru, guided by Menon had become obstinate and unilaterally defined the borders which were till then in dispute by China. Here's another by a journalist.


The infamous ‘Forward Policy’ was authored at the very top in November 1961 without consulting military officers. Under it, numerous small, rag-tag military outposts were set up in disputed areas, claimed by both India and China after the colonial masters left. More than 40 of them were in the north of Zhou’ LAC in Chinese-claimed and Chinese-controlled territory. There were inevitable armed clashes with People’s Liberation Army (PLA) patrols. Beijing’s protests, warning that China’s forces would be compelled to retaliate, fell on deaf ears. Displaying utter arrogance, politicos and babus of Delhi, went on provoking the well-armed PLA forces, sitting thousands of miles away.

In this context, it is pertinent to recall Lal Bahadur Shastri’s jingoistic declaration on February 4, 1962. As if fighting the Chinese is as easy as forcible annexation of Goa from a war-weary Portugal, the Nehru loyalist arrogantly roared, “If the Chinese will not vacate the areas occupied by her, India will have to repeat what she did in Goa. She will certainly drive out the Chinese forces.” Nehru himself made a rabble-rousing statement on October 12, 1962, that he had “ordered the Indian Army to throw the Chinese out.”

Driving out the Chinese forces was a wishful declaration by the irresponsible political leadership, but the ground situation was different. General KS Thimayya, the Indian CoAS (Chief of Army Staff) until 1961, was quite alarmed at jingoist noises emanating from New Delhi. The General put the matter in perspective in a magazine article, “I cannot even, as a soldier, envisage India taking on China in an open conflict on its own; we could never hope to match China in the foreseeable future. It must be left to the politicians and diplomats to ensure our security.” Link http://www.merinews.com/article/chienigma-iii-beware-of-return-to-nehru-menons-forward-policy/130284.shtml




Would anyone enlighten us what was India to gain from provoking a war with China anyway?

''Betrayal by China is not too simplistic and one-sided a view'' as you believe but it was the real and only fact.How let us try to understand.


Let me list down the reasons why China was provoked by India. India didnt plan on a war, mind you. Nor didn't it think its actions will be taken as provocation by China. But it did end up that way:
1. Unilateral confirmation of a disputed border. Indian maps changed from 1950 to 1954 and disputed territories in 1950 were listed as actual border in 1954. This was done without deliberating or discussing the issue with China.
2. Forward policy. You cant go on building outposts and increase patrols in a disputed region and expect the other part to not to see it as a provocation. Any increased military activity in a disputed region would not be seen positively by your neighbor.
3. An aggressive stance and disregard for negotiations. Towards the preceding months of the war, India had adopted an increasingly aggressive stance towards China. Political statements and increased military activity further worsened an already charged atmosphere.

Now China was already facing questions about its integrity with respect to Taiwan and in the north with Russia and in the east in Tibet. It had become increasingly paranoid about safeguarding it new status as a major nation in the world. So it didnt want to take any chances and didnt want to give the impression that it was a weak nation. Hence, the Chinese onslaught.

And you'd remember China had announced a unilateral cease-fire. If it wanted to, it could have annexed the whole of NEFA (Arunachal Pradesh) but it didnt and stopped in spite of having the upper hand. This goes on to show that the Chinese wanted to teach India a lesson for provoking it rather than expand its domain into India.

And anyways, this discussion about the 1962 war, is off topic to the title of this thread. We should forget about past issues and move forward though exercising caution at the same time. Both the countries have much to gain from each other and together can herald an Asian century.

[Ambijat]

साँच को आँच नहीं ---
ओलंपिक का पहला गोल्ड चीन के नाम
http://www.rajasthanpatrika.com/News/Sports/7282012/sports-news/351777 (http://www.rajasthanpatrika.com/News/Sports/7282012/sports-news/351777)

[ravinderjeet]

साँच को आँच नहीं ---
ओलंपिक का पहला गोल्ड चीन के नाम

http://www.rajasthanpatrika.com/News/Sports/7282012/sports-news/351777 (http://www.rajasthanpatrika.com/News/Sports/7282012/sports-news/351777)


भाई अम्बरीश ढाका ,या बात ते ठीक स ,पर तन्ने लिखी इस्सी ढाल स जणू ते चीन तेरा देश हो हर हामने तू चिडांदा हो ?

[vvk1987]

भाई साहब तुलना करण मै तो बुराइ कोन्या, पर या बात सही कोन्या कि चीन हर चीज़ मै म्हारे तैं बढ़िया सै I एक छोटा सा उदाहरण सै, म्हारे गामां मै लोग सरपंच अपनी मर्जी का चुन सकते हैं (आर साथ में दारु फ्री मै मिल्ज्या सै) चीन मै तो एक पार्टी की तानाशाही है और वहां लोगों के पास सरकार चुनने का अधिकार नहीं है I मतबल यो सै कि लोगाँ की घेटी भींच राखी सै कम्मुनिस्ट पार्टी नै आर ये विकास के आंकड़े भी सारे साचे कोन्या I उनकी GDP भी घट के 7 .6 प्रतिशत रहगी जो म्हारे तैं थोड़ी ए ज्यादा सै I वहां की 700000 बड़ी बड़ी कम्पनियाँ अपने आंकड़े नेशनल Bureau ऑफ़ Statistics को सीधा सौंपती हैं जिनके बारे में वाल स्ट्रीट जर्नल में ठीक जानकारी उपलब्ध नहीं होती I उनका औद्द्योगिद फायदा भी ढाई प्रतिशत के करीब गिरा है पिछले साल के मुकाबले I गूगल पर न्यू लिख राखी थी अक सीमेंट, बिज़ली आदि भIरी उद्द्योगों की उत्पादकता भी काफी गिरी है I 2005 से उनकी GDP मै कोए खास सुधार नहीं होया I देहात में गरीबी आर बदहाली भी काफी सै I सिर्फ शंघाई, Guangzou और बीजिंग की चमक ना देखो I हाँ उनको एक बाद का फायदा जरूर है तानाशाही होने का, कि बड़े स्तर की प्रोजेक्ट्स को लांच करने में इतनी मुश्किल नहीं पड़ती जितनी म्हारे देश मै I उदहारण के तौर पै उत्तरप्रदेश मै न्यू सुणया था अक एक पार्क साफ़ करण के चक्कर में एक जनानी की मूर्ती (जो उसने अपने जीवते जी ठुकवा दी थी) टूट गी थी I दो पार्टियां नै जमा कटिया तार दिया था लखनऊ मै I चीन मै तो उस मूर्ती का मलबा किते खड्डे भरण मै ला देंदे I म्हारे यहाँ तों उन टुकड़ों को बा- इज्ज़त उसी मूर्ती पर चिपकाया जागा ..ज लोग्गां नै भैंस के खूंटे नहीं बनाये होंगे तै......क्योंकि लोकतंत्र सै जो चीन मै कोन्या I हाँ एक चीज़ मै China म्हारे तैं आगै सै, मिलिटरी आर नेवल पावर मै I क्योंकि साइज़ बड्डा सै, सत्ता का केन्द्रीकरण होने के कारण उनका विदेशी व्यापर यानी निर्यात की प्रक्रिया म्हारे तैं सरल सै I बैंकिंग प्रणाली पर कड़ा नियंत्रण होने के कारण देश का पिस्सा देश में ए इन्वेस्ट होता रह सै I सीधी सी बात सै पिस्से आले का जीवन स्तर यानि Human Development Index थोडा सा ठीक होया करै I पर हर चमकने वाली चीज़ सोना नहीं होया करदी I फेर फेसबुक, ट्विट्टर आर गूगल टॉक की भी आज़ादी कोन्या, जो कि भोत जरूरी सै I

[singhvp]

The stories of China’s economic growth seem to be a little hyped. The saga seems to be a mix of myth and half-truths rather than being a wholesomely true story. It may sound like a wild imagination on my part but a conspiracy theory cannot be totally ruled out in exaggerating and hyping of Chinese economic statistic which is done back-stage by none other than the National Bureau of Statistics controlled by the mighty Communist State. Manipulation of data submitted by about 700,000 major Chinese companies directly to this powerful governmental agency behind the bamboo curtain is not a difficult task, especially in a dictatorial dispensation of government affairs. The obvious motive behind such manipulation could be to mesmerise the global institutional investors to divert the conduits of their liquid assets towards Chinese capital market in lure of easy dividends out of advantage China. Even during the critical phase of economic meltdown the world economies are passing through, Chinese authorities proclaim to be maintaining a growth rate of 7.6 during the second quarter of 2012. But, the ‘Advantage China’ theory propelled by competitiveness in the area of cost of production seems to have been marred by the recent predictions by the credible wealth management institutions and firms like WTO, French Bank ‘NATIXIS’ and the Boston Consultancy Group, thereby dampening the Chinese buoyancy.

India has overtaken China in exports growth rate recording an increase of 16.1 per cent in 2011, topping the list of all major trading countries in the world, says a WTO report. "India had the fastest export growth among major traders in 2011, with shipments rising 16.1 per cent. Meanwhile, China had the second-fastest export growth of any major economy at 9.3 %,” World Trade Report 2012 of WTO said. In 2010, China topped the list with shipment growth rate of 28.4 per cent, while India recorded an increase of 22 per cent. The rapidly increasing wage standards in China (13 % over a period of last one year) are constantly making its economy less competitive as far as cost effectiveness is concerned. Labour cost in China would match those of US in 4 years and would catch up with Eurozone countries in five years. The French Bank Natixis has forecast that “China will soon no longer be a competitive place for production given the strong rise in the cost of production”. This view has been backed by the Boston Consulting Group which is one of the most reputed global management groups. In one of its reports published in August last year, BCG had predicted that by 2015 "manufacturing in some parts of United States would be as economical as in China." Quite obviously India is a potential beneficiary of that scenario in my assessment. Some major US companies have already started winding up their operations in China with an eye on destinations with cheaper means of production (read labour). For example US technology giant NCR has moved its manufacture of ATMs to a factory in Columbus, Georgia and another major US brand - Adidas is the latest to shift its manufacturing to cheaper destinations. Some Asian Countries like Indonesia Cambodia, Vietnam and some Latin American Countries like Brazil and Argentina are being looked as economically viable substitutes. Probably, India would also be a potential destination if she takes advantage of this economic whirlwind which is gathering momentum gradually. This is bound to happen sooner or later.

In spite of the foregoing, the fact remains that the size of Chinese economy is much bigger than the Indian Economy (if the indicators in public domain are to be the criteria) which perhaps seems to be the premise taken by the original poster in his initial post to portray China bigger than India. Also, there can be no denying the fact that the flow of investment towards heavy infrastructure is larger in comparison to India. But the fact should not the glossed over that apart from government regulated economy, India has a traditional parallel economy too which is governed by the private players and works as a cushion in the eventuality of global recession. Unlike any other world economy, India felt the least heat of the current global meltdown if viewed in terms of rate of contraction. Conclusively, the gap between the two economies is not very wide if the economic indicators of Chinese economy become transparent and the parameters of comparison are determined by the principles of level playing field, concept of democracy and individual freedoms which is an amiss in China. Contrary to the popular perception, crony capitalism, which is, otherwise, considered an illegitimate child of pure capitalism, is now in the process of conception in the so-called socialist society since major chunk of Chinese business is controlled by the relatives and kins of comrades in politbureau. Therefore, given the striking contrast in the fundamental parameters, an objective comparison between the two nations would be only a hypothesis derived by our political orientations.

[ravinderjeet]

वि.पि. जी ,स्वागत स आपका फेर तें , घर बणग्या के आपका ?

[singhvp]

वि.पि. जी ,स्वागत स आपका फेर तें , घर बणग्या के आपका ?

रविंदरजीत, स्वागत के लिए धन्यवाद भाई I घर-बिध की तो हम चपाड़ (chaupal) मैं होक्का पीते-पीते फेर भी बतलालेंगे.. यो serious टोपिक खामखाँ पटड़ी पर तैं थिसल ज्यागा I पब्लिक फोरम पर व्यक्तिगत वार्तालाप आछा नहीं लाग्दा I

[kapdal]

भाई अम्बरीश ढाका ,या बात ते ठीक स ,पर तन्ने लिखी इस्सी ढाल स जणू ते चीन तेरा देश हो हर हामने तू चिडांदा हो ?

All that glitters is not gold.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/08/sports/olympics/chinas-quest-for-olympic-gold-takes-toll-on-athletes.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&hp

[DrRajpalSingh]

The stories of China’s economic growth seem to be a little hyped. The saga seems to be a mix of myth and half-truths rather than being a wholesomely true story. It may sound like a wild imagination on my part but a conspiracy theory cannot be totally ruled out in exaggerating and hyping of Chinese economic statistic which is done back-stage by none other than the National Bureau of Statistics controlled by the mighty Communist State. Manipulation of data submitted by about 700,000 major Chinese companies directly to this powerful governmental agency behind the bamboo curtain is not a difficult task, especially in a dictatorial dispensation of government affairs. The obvious motive behind such manipulation could be to mesmerise the global institutional investors to divert the conduits of their liquid assets towards Chinese capital market in lure of easy dividends out of advantage China. Even during the critical phase of economic meltdown the world economies are passing through, Chinese authorities proclaim to be maintaining a growth rate of 7.6 during the second quarter of 2012. But, the ‘Advantage China’ theory propelled by competitiveness in the area of cost of production seems to have been marred by the recent predictions by the credible wealth management institutions and firms like WTO, French Bank ‘NATIXIS’ and the Boston Consultancy Group, thereby dampening the Chinese buoyancy.

India has overtaken China in exports growth rate recording an increase of 16.1 per cent in 2011, topping the list of all major trading countries in the world, says a WTO report. "India had the fastest export growth among major traders in 2011, with shipments rising 16.1 per cent. Meanwhile, China had the second-fastest export growth of any major economy at 9.3 %,” World Trade Report 2012 of WTO said. In 2010, China topped the list with shipment growth rate of 28.4 per cent, while India recorded an increase of 22 per cent. The rapidly increasing wage standards in China (13 % over a period of last one year) are constantly making its economy less competitive as far as cost effectiveness is concerned. Labour cost in China would match those of US in 4 years and would catch up with Eurozone countries in five years. The French Bank Natixis has forecast that “China will soon no longer be a competitive place for production given the strong rise in the cost of production”. This view has been backed by the Boston Consulting Group which is one of the most reputed global management groups. In one of its reports published in August last year, BCG had predicted that by 2015 "manufacturing in some parts of United States would be as economical as in China." Quite obviously India is a potential beneficiary of that scenario in my assessment. Some major US companies have already started winding up their operations in China with an eye on destinations with cheaper means of production (read labour). For example US technology giant NCR has moved its manufacture of ATMs to a factory in Columbus, Georgia and another major US brand - Adidas is the latest to shift its manufacturing to cheaper destinations. Some Asian Countries like Indonesia Cambodia, Vietnam and some Latin American Countries like Brazil and Argentina are being looked as economically viable substitutes. Probably, India would also be a potential destination if she takes advantage of this economic whirlwind which is gathering momentum gradually. This is bound to happen sooner or later.

In spite of the foregoing, the fact remains that the size of Chinese economy is much bigger than the Indian Economy (if the indicators in public domain are to be the criteria) which perhaps seems to be the premise taken by the original poster in his initial post to portray China bigger than India. Also, there can be no denying the fact that the flow of investment towards heavy infrastructure is larger in comparison to India. But the fact should not the glossed over that apart from government regulated economy, India has a traditional parallel economy too which is governed by the private players and works as a cushion in the eventuality of global recession. Unlike any other world economy, India felt the least heat of the current global meltdown if viewed in terms of rate of contraction. Conclusively, the gap between the two economies is not very wide if the economic indicators of Chinese economy become transparent and the parameters of comparison are determined by the principles of level playing field, concept of democracy and individual freedoms which is an amiss in China. Contrary to the popular perception, crony capitalism, which is, otherwise, considered an illegitimate child of pure capitalism, is now in the process of conception in the so-called socialist society since major chunk of Chinese business is controlled by the relatives and kins of comrades in politbureau. Therefore, given the striking contrast in the fundamental parameters, an objective comparison between the two nations would be only a hypothesis derived by our political orientations.

Congratulations Friend on excellent objective and threadbare presentation of the issue. It gives a whip of fresh air of hope for the Indians and India in this tumultuous era of economic globalisation.

Regards

[DrRajpalSingh]

Repeated post due to oversight and technical snag stands cancelled. Inconvenience regretted.

[vicky84]

Good to know. Baaki west ki free society ka koi mukabla nahi hai..Aise pressure kabhi nahi hota.

Long run mei wahi kamyaab hai..


All that glitters is not gold.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/08/sports/olympics/chinas-quest-for-olympic-gold-takes-toll-on-athletes.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&hp

[Ambijat]

चीन भी हमारा है , भारत भी हमारा है । घर, पड़ोस मे तुलना होती है कि नहीं । और घरवाली ओलमा भी देती है कि नहीं ।

[DrRajpalSingh]

Good to know. Baaki west ki free society ka koi mukabla nahi hai..Aise pressure kabhi nahi hota.

Long run mei wahi kamyaab hai..
Friend,

Freedom is good but not the license to indulge in passions and pursuits of luxury. This is the basic difference between the two worlds. Agreed that Oriental and Western both the cultures and civilisations have their own plus and minus points. But the western countries are far ahead of the oriental countries in modern sense of development or to say materialistic attainments whereas the peace of mind and serenity, the yoga, cultural diversity and unity and the family system of the countries like India remains a special attraction to the westerns.

Thanks.

[vicky84]

Friend,

Freedom is good but not the license to indulge in passions and pursuits of luxury. This is the basic difference between the two worlds. Agreed that Oriental and Western both the cultures and civilisations have their own plus and minus points. But the western countries are far ahead of the oriental countries in modern sense of development or to say materialistic attainments whereas the peace of mind and serenity, the yoga, cultural diversity and unity and the family system of the countries like India remains a special attraction to the westerns.

Thanks.
Sir,

My reaction was to the Chinese way of achieving things. I don't think that is a good model to attain success. There is too much pressure on athletes to perform and fear of criticism, if you don't win. Winning or loosing is a part of game. Such a pressure and no freedom of expression will yield drastic results in long term. I also agree with you on good and bad sides of western culture and civilization. The best thing is to get good from all cultures.

[deshi-jat]

You can add Vegetarianism too, they are coming up now with PETA like organizations


Friend,

Freedom is good but not the license to indulge in passions and pursuits of luxury. This is the basic difference between the two worlds. Agreed that Oriental and Western both the cultures and civilisations have their own plus and minus points. But the western countries are far ahead of the oriental countries in modern sense of development or to say materialistic attainments whereas the peace of mind and serenity, the yoga, cultural diversity and unity and the family system of the countries like India remains a special attraction to the westerns.

Thanks.

[DrRajpalSingh]

Sir,

My reaction was to the Chinese way of achieving things. I don't think that is a good model to attain success. There is too much pressure on athletes to perform and fear of criticism, if you don't win. Winning or loosing is a part of game. Such a pressure and no freedom of expression will yield drastic results in long term. I also agree with you on good and bad sides of western culture and civilization. The best thing is to get good from all cultures.

I agree with you friend that it is the best way of life if we continue to keep our doors open to learn and adopt good things from every nook and corner of the world.
Thanks

[singhvp]

Friend,

Freedom is good but not the license to indulge in passions and pursuits of luxury. This is the basic difference between the two worlds. Agreed that Oriental and Western both the cultures and civilisations have their own plus and minus points. But the western countries are far ahead of the oriental countries in modern sense of development or to say materialistic attainments ewhereas th peace of mind and serenity, the yoga, cultural diversity and unity and the family system of the countries like India remains a special attraction to the westerns.

Thanks.

डॉ. साहब, मानसिक शांति और serenity तो अब म्हारे देश मै भी कोन्या रही I बलात्कार, चोरी-चकारी, रिश्वतखोरी, धोखाधड़ी इतने बढ़गे के आम आदमी का जीना मुहाल हो रह्या सै I जमीन के एक एक इंच पै लड़ाई झगडे, मार काट आर मुकद्दमे बाज़ी आम हो रह्या सै I फैमली का value-system भी चरमरा गया इब तै I सास बहू, भाई भाई आर रिशतेदारां के आपस मै खूब खूंड बाज़ण लागगे i पश्चिम के देश म्हारे तैं इस मामले मै फेर भी ठीक सें i

[vikda]

Bilkul theek kaha VP Sir......Ek lambe samay tak bahar raha hua aadmi hi ye baatein samajh sakta hai aur jisne bahut samay apne desh mein bhi bitaya ho...

डॉ. साहब, मानसिक शांति और serenity तो अब म्हारे देश मै भी कोन्या रही I बलात्कार, चोरी-चकारी, रिश्वतखोरी, धोखाधड़ी इतने बढ़गे के आम आदमी का जीना मुहाल हो रह्या सै I जमीन के एक एक इंच पै लड़ाई झगडे, मार काट आर मुकद्दमे बाज़ी आम हो रह्या सै I फैमली का value-system भी चरमरा गया इब तै I सास बहू, भाई भाई आर रिशतेदारां के आपस मै खूब खूंड बाज़ण लागगे i पश्चिम के देश म्हारे तैं इस मामले मै फेर भी ठीक सें i

[vicky84]

All that glitters is not gold.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/08/sports/olympics/chinas-quest-for-olympic-gold-takes-toll-on-athletes.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&hp

Good observation by Tharoor on Chinese Model:

http://tharoor.in/press/china-vs-india-a-democracy-battle/

Tharoor reasons that “the dragon could stumble where the elephant can always trundle on” – because eventually Beijing will come to the point where authoritarianism no longer works.

[rajpaldular]

चाइना ने परमाणु हथियार बनाने के लिए पकिस्तान को 6.5 बिलियन डॉलर देने की घोषणा की है।


और आश्चर्य की बात ये है कि सारा पैसा चीन ने भारत के बाजार से ही कमाया है। :mad:

[maddhan1979]

वर्तमान राजनैतिक चर्चाओं में यह विषय अकसर आता है कि क्या भारत चीन से मुकाबला कर सकता है । चीन की अर्थव्यवस्था भारत से तीन गुना बड़ी है । वहाँ निवेश की कोई कमी नहीं है । चीन सरकार ढाँचागत परियोजनाओं में सबसे बड़ी निवेशक है । इसको देखकर पहला निष्कर्ष यही निकलता है कि भारत में ढाँचागत विकास चीन कि तुलना में अधिक पिछड़ा हुआ है । हमारी विकास दर सेवा क्षेत्र से जुड़ी हुई है, जो कि पश्चिम जगत के आर्थिक परिमाणो से निर्धारित है । इसका असर हमें देखने को मिला है । यही नहीं हम रक्षा के क्षेत्र में भी जिस प्रकार का निवेश चाह रहे हैं वह भी इसके चलते संभव नहीं है । जबकि इसके विपरीत चीन के सामने अजीब समस्या अपने उत्पादन को खपाने की है, यानि घरेलु मांग को बढाना । इन सबके चलते तो यही लगता है कि भारत चीन की तुलना बेमानी है । अभी लंदन ओलंपिक आ रहे हैं, चीन अपनी छाप छोड़ने को आतुर है, भारत को तो इन ओलंपिक के समापन के बाद ही राहत की सांस मिलेगी ।

चीन को माना जाता है चुंकि वहाँ लोकतांत्रिक व्यवस्था का अभाव है इसलिए जो जनमानस में असंतोष है वह इस विकास के माडल को नकार देगा, और लंबे दौर में भारत के अनुभव ज्यादा कारगर साबित होगे । परंतु भारत में लोकतंत्र का संकट भी कम नहीं, जिस तरह भ्रष्टाचार इसे खोखला कर रहा है ।

इस सबमें सबसे महत्व तत्व है वही देश स्वयं को अग्रणी कह सकेगा जहाँ समाज निर्माण की प्रक्रिया स्वस्थ होगी तथा आर्थिक प्रगति के परिमाण इसी की ओर इशारा करेंगे। चीन में यह दिखाई देता है वहाँ सरकार और पार्टी युवा नेतृत्व को महत्व दे रही है । भारत में इसके प्रति उदासीनता है जिसके चलते विकास के लिए सबल कदम लेने में कोताही हो रही है ।

अम्बरीष ढ़ाका


China exports more than it imports.
India imports more then it exports.
India in this sense is more of a consumption society.