Haryana and West UP

[tarzon]

After Independence several state has been reorganized on linguistic and cultural basis. And on the same line Haryana and Punjab carved out as a separate state in 1966. When reorganization done on linguistic and cultural basis then one question arise in mine mind.

Several adjoining district of West UP (e.g. Ghaziabad, Baghpat, Merrut, Shamli, Muzzafarnagar, Saharanpur, Mathura, Agra etc) along Haryana are Linguistically and culturally similar.

They have similar culture, language, food habit etc.

Then why these district not included in Haryana at the time of reorganization of states???

Share your views:

[swaich]

Thats true actually. Most of western UP and Haryana are very similar. It would have made sense to carve out a state combining these two areas.

One reason that I can think of is that United Provinces which included western UP was always a separate state whereas the region now known as Haryana didnt have their own identity until 1966 and were seen as a part of Punjab.

[narenderkharb]

Thats true actually. Most of western UP and Haryana are very similar. It would have made sense to carve out a state combining these two areas.

One reason that I can think of is that United Provinces which included western UP was always a separate state whereas the region now known as Haryana didnt have their own identity until 1966 and were seen as a part of Punjab.


It is not your mistake as History of Hrayana is not taught even in Haryana schools.

As a matter of fact Country of Haryana always included Western UP and present capital of India ,Delhi was its own capital more than one thousand years ago..

Western UP was carved out of this after First war of INDEPENDENCE.

On the contrary Punjab is very new name if we see in historical annals as compared to Haryana .

[tarzon]

I can understand that United Provinces which included western UP was always a separate state but when State Reorganization Commission was setup whose main responsibility was to redefine to boundary of state throughout India then the fact of United Provinces doesn't hold the water. So don't know exactly why State Reorganization Commission didn't consider to include these adjoining district of West UP in Haryana...


Thats true actually. Most of western UP and Haryana are very similar. It would have made sense to carve out a state combining these two areas.

One reason that I can think of is that United Provinces which included western UP was always a separate state whereas the region now known as Haryana didnt have their own identity until 1966 and were seen as a part of Punjab.

[DrRajpalSingh]

Several adjoining district of West UP (e.g. Ghaziabad, Baghpat, Merrut, Shamli, Muzzafarnagar, Saharanpur, Mathura, Agra etc) along Haryana are Linguistically and culturally similar.

They have similar culture, language, food habit etc.

Then why these district not included in Haryana at the time of reorganization of states???

Share your views:

Haryana was not formed as a result of reorganisation of states commission report 1956.

People of Haryana had submitted demand before the states reorganisation commission in 1955-56 demanding carving out Haryana comprising Hindi Speaking areas of the then Punjab, Western Uttaer Pradesh, Delhi and districts of Jhunjhunu, Bharatpur, Sriganganagar etc in Rajasthan on the basis of historical, cultural and historical affinity. But the then central government rejected their plea on the basis of keeping the border state of India Punjab as a strong unit of the Union of India.

However it led to dissatisfaction among the Sikhs of Punjab and Haryanavis. Haryana was carved out due to struggle carried out by the people of Haryana and the Punjab on linguistic reorganisation of the then Punjab on 1st November, 1966. Some areas of the then Punjab were merged with Himachal Pradesh and a new Union Territory namely Chandigarh also came into existence.

[DrRajpalSingh]

Thats true actually. Most of western UP and Haryana are very similar. It would have made sense to carve out a state combining these two areas.

One reason that I can think of is that United Provinces which included western UP was always a separate state whereas the region now known as Haryana didnt have their own identity until 1966 and were seen as a part of Punjab.

Haryana is cradle of the Indian culture and civilisation where mantras of the Vedas were enchanted first at the banks of the River Saraswati. {The river was considered most mighty as to the volume of water it carried and venerated more profusely then the Ganges in the yore}. The famous battle of Bharata known as Mahabharata, three battles of Panipat, Battles of Tarain 1191-92, Battle of Karnal 1739 and peoples rise against the British occupation of the region since 1803 onwards is the testimony of the existence of this prime land in the forefront of the national polity! What more identity is required to prove than this. The Palam Boali Inscription contains its name as Haryana. Thanesar [now Kurukshetra] was the seat of power of Harashvardhan Pushyabhuti.

Above all, this is the place where SriKrishana delivered the immortal sandesh contained in the Gita!

Political expediency denied bifurcation of Uttar Pradesh in 1956 because Pandit Jawahar Lal Nehru, the Prime Minister and Pt. Govind Ballbh Pant, the then Home Minister wanted not to weaken the hold of UP on national politics. Moreover, the fertile area comprising western UP district is the wheat and rice bowl of Hilly area of the State. Their inclusion in Haryana would have led to adverse impact on economy of the state too.

No doubt, geographical demarcation of Haryana of the past years remained embedded in the minds of people, political entity of Haryana was tried to be eliminated by parceling out its territories to several Sikh Rulers, and cutting off Delhi district from it, and severing it from NW United Provinces and tagging major part of Haryana with the then Punjab state as a part of punishment to the people of Haryana for their participation in the First War of Indian Independence faught in 1857-58.

[narenderkharb]

[QUOTE=DrRajpalSinghThe Palam Boali Inscription contains its name as Haryana. .[/QUOTE]


Though Palam Boali inscription deals with Prithvi raj Chouhan ,Haryana as a country is recorded much before that by Jain poet Vibudh Sridhar in his book Pasanah Chariu in Mahipal tomar times.Here he mention about Haryana Desh its capital and charcter of its people .....








Translation: .......There are countless villages in Haryana country. The villagers there work

hard. They don't accept domination of others, and are experts in making the blood of

their enemies flow. Indra himself praises this country. The capital of this country is Dhilli........







Pasanah Chriu is available in file section of yahoo Jat History Group..

[swaich]

Haryana is cradle of the Indian culture and civilisation where mantras of the Vedas were enchanted first at the banks of the River Saraswati. {The river was considered most mighty as to the volume of water it carried and venerated more profusely then the Ganges in the yore}. The famous battle of Bharata known as Mahabharata, three battles of Panipat, Battles of Tarain 1191-92, Battle of Karnal 1739 and peoples rise against the British occupation of the region since 1803 onwards is the testimony of the existence of this prime land in the forefront of the national polity! What more identity is required to prove than this. The Palam Boali Inscription contains its name as Haryana. Thanesar [now Kurukshetra] was the seat of power of Harashvardhan Pushyabhuti.

Above all, this is the place where SriKrishana delivered the immortal sandesh contained in the Gita!

Political expediency denied bifurcation of Uttar Pradesh in 1956 because Pandit Jawahar Lal Nehru, the Prime Minister and Pt. Govind Ballbh Pant, the then Home Minister wanted not to weaken the hold of UP on national politics. Moreover, the fertile area comprising western UP district is the wheat and rice bowl of Hilly area of the State. Their inclusion in Haryana would have led to adverse impact on economy of the state too.

No doubt, geographical demarcation of Haryana of the past years remained embedded in the minds of people, political entity of Haryana was tried to be eliminated by parceling out its territories to several Sikh Rulers, and cutting off Delhi district from it, and severing it from NW United Provinces and tagging major part of Haryana with the then Punjab state as a part of punishment to the people of Haryana for their participation in the First War of Indian Independence faught in 1857-58.
I am not doubting the historical importance of the land. What I meant was that the current political entity of Haryana was always a part of a larger kingdom/ state before being formally recognized independently in 1966. But looks like Kharb ji understood my comment and his post has definitely cleared a lot of things.

[DrRajpalSingh]

Though Palam Boali inscription deals with Prithvi raj Chouhan ,Haryana as a country is recorded much before that by Jain poet Vibudh Sridhar in his book Pasanah Chariu in Mahipal tomar times.Here he mention about Haryana Desh its capital and charcter of its people .....



Translation: .......There are countless villages in Haryana country. The villagers there work

hard. They don't accept domination of others, and are experts in making the blood of

their enemies flow. Indra himself praises this country. The capital of this country is Dhilli........

Pasanah Chriu is available in file section of yahoo Jat History Group..

Friend for your attempt to establish and add one more authentic evidence to the identity of the ancient land of Haryana, you deserve to be thanked!

regards

[narenderkharb]

Thanks for the nice words but the real credit goes to Dr Yashwant Mallaya, Prof of History in University of California ,who searched and translated this Jain Text and Ravi Choudhary moderator of Jat History site who invited him on yahoo group where he could share info about Haryana and its people.

[Abhisheksangwan]

Haryana is Jat-dominated state,Punjab is Jatt-Sikh dominated state & Rajasthan too have good population of Jats.
But Uttar Pradesh has very large population so Jats of Uttar Pradesh are not able to show their proper representation. But still they have national level leader like Ajit Singh.
Jats of Delhi are cornered by the politicians like Shiela Dixit. Shiela Dixit has destroyed the lives of Jats in Delhi by creating JJ Colonies. Bangladeshis & Biharis live in these colonies. They get food grains,electricity,etc at subsidised rates from the Government.
Land is taken from the Jats just to settle criminals in JJ colonies,, not for some development purpose.
Now situation is so worse that Jats in Delhi can easily win only MCD Election not Vidhan Sabha or Lok Sabha Election.

[ravinderjeet]

Haryana is Jat-dominated state,Punjab is Jatt-Sikh dominated state & Rajasthan too have good population of Jats.
But Uttar Pradesh has very large population so Jats of Uttar Pradesh are not able to show their proper representation. But still they have national level leader like Ajit Singh.
Jats of Delhi are cornered by the politicians like Shiela Dixit. Shiela Dixit has destroyed the lives of Jats in Delhi by creating JJ Colonies. Bangladeshis & Biharis live in these colonies. They get food grains,electricity,etc at subsidised rates from the Government.
Land is taken from the Jats just to settle criminals in JJ colonies,, not for some development purpose.
Now situation is so worse that Jats in Delhi can easily win only MCD Election not Vidhan Sabha or Lok Sabha Election.


दिल्ली के जाट पिस्सां की बू में बावले होरे सें ,इब्ब उन् ने जट्टां के अधिकार या राजनीती या उनके हक़ की बात करण खातर फुरसत कोणी , अर जा कोए इस्सी बात करे ते उह ने बावली बूच अनपढ़ समझें सें वे | घंखर्या का किराए पे जीणा अर साबत दिन पत्ते खेलना ,या-ए उनकी दिनचर्या स | राजनीती में ते कटी ख़तम हो लिए जाट दिल्ली के ,भाप्प्यां का राज स |

[swaich]

It is not your mistake as History of Hrayana is not taught even in Haryana schools.

As a matter of fact Country of Haryana always included Western UP and present capital of India ,Delhi was its own capital more than one thousand years ago..

Western UP was carved out of this after First war of INDEPENDENCE.

On the contrary Punjab is very new name if we see in historical annals as compared to Haryana .

Thanks for the interesting info. It does seem like Delhi Territory included present day Haryana amd Western UP.

I think Punjab's sanskritized name was first mentioned in the Mahabharata as Panch-Nada. I read that this was taken up later by the Persian speakers who translated it as Punjab. So as a name, Punjab would be closed to more than 2 thousand year old.

[narenderkharb]

It does seem like Delhi Territory included present day Haryana amd Western UP.

Yes, but I wonder why historian didn't write Haryana in place of Delhi (Kingdom/Sultanate) despite of the fact that inscription and records from Tomars(Pasanah Chariu) ,Chouhans(palam Baoli Inscription) till Balban period (Palm Inscription of 1276 A.D.)refer this territory as Haryana Desha.




I think Punjab's sanskritized name was first mentioned in the Mahabharata as Panch-Nada. I read that this was taken up later by the Persian speakers who translated it as Punjab. So as a name, Punjab would be closed to more than 2 thousand year old.

I was comparing Punjab that find first mention in Sixteenth century with Haryana ,However Panchnada that certainly stands for Later Punjab has been recorded much earlier.

All we know Haryana was called Haryana even in eight/ninth century AD but since when we have no idea.

[SumitJattan]

Nice piece sir ... kudos

Haryana is cradle of the Indian culture and civilisation where mantras of the Vedas were enchanted first at the banks of the River Saraswati. {The river was considered most mighty as to the volume of water it carried and venerated more profusely then the Ganges in the yore}. The famous battle of Bharata known as Mahabharata, three battles of Panipat, Battles of Tarain 1191-92, Battle of Karnal 1739 and peoples rise against the British occupation of the region since 1803 onwards is the testimony of the existence of this prime land in the forefront of the national polity! What more identity is required to prove than this. The Palam Boali Inscription contains its name as Haryana. Thanesar [now Kurukshetra] was the seat of power of Harashvardhan Pushyabhuti.

Above all, this is the place where SriKrishana delivered the immortal sandesh contained in the Gita!

Political expediency denied bifurcation of Uttar Pradesh in 1956 because Pandit Jawahar Lal Nehru, the Prime Minister and Pt. Govind Ballbh Pant, the then Home Minister wanted not to weaken the hold of UP on national politics. Moreover, the fertile area comprising western UP district is the wheat and rice bowl of Hilly area of the State. Their inclusion in Haryana would have led to adverse impact on economy of the state too.

No doubt, geographical demarcation of Haryana of the past years remained embedded in the minds of people, political entity of Haryana was tried to be eliminated by parceling out its territories to several Sikh Rulers, and cutting off Delhi district from it, and severing it from NW United Provinces and tagging major part of Haryana with the then Punjab state as a part of punishment to the people of Haryana for their participation in the First War of Indian Independence faught in 1857-58.

[DrRajpalSingh]

I am not doubting the historical importance of the land. What I meant was that the current political entity of Haryana was always a part of a larger kingdom/ state before being formally recognized independently in 1966. But looks like Kharb ji understood my comment and his post has definitely cleared a lot of things.

Right Haryana as a provincial unit of Indian Union emerged on 1st November 1966; although not 'formally recognised independently' but as a part and parcel of India.

[DrRajpalSingh]

Yes, but I wonder why historian didn't write Haryana in place of Delhi (Kingdom/Sultanate) despite of the fact that inscription and records from Tomars(Pasanah Chariu) ,Chouhans(palam Baoli Inscription) till Balban period (Palm Inscription of 1276 A.D.)refer this territory as Haryana Desha.
.......

Friend,

The reason for naming Sultanate is clear as it comprised larger tracts than the region represented by the name Haryana which was just a part of the bigger Sultanate kingdom. It derived its name from the Capital city Delhi as its hold extended over several states of Indian Union of today.

Thanks and regards.

[randhir27]

Reason is that these Districts are backbone of U.P. , these Districts are income source of UP . Whole the money spend in east up was earned by west up .

[DrRajpalSingh]

Haryana is Jat-dominated state,Punjab is Jatt-Sikh dominated state & Rajasthan too have good population of Jats.
But Uttar Pradesh has very large population so Jats of Uttar Pradesh are not able to show their proper representation. But still they have national level leader like Ajit Singh......
Friends,

The void left by departing of Chaudhary Charan Singh former PM and Chaudhary Devi Lal, Deputy PM of India has left Jats to lament and miss them. They are eager to have at least one national leader but the wait continues to prolong the emergence of one such person who duly qualifies to be said to be national leader!

National leader is one who leads and represents the people of India as a whole not a region or zone only.

It would have been happy moment for us to see Chaudhary Ajit Singh's at the helm of affairs at national level. But as a matter of fact neither he nor any other Jat leader qualifies to be called national leader as of today. The fact is neither R L D led by him has any presence in any other state than in a few districts of western U.P. nor it is a regional party having even its representation in entire area of Uttar Pradesh. Therefore RLD can be termed as a zonal political party.

Thanks

[Abhisheksangwan]

Friends,

The void left by departing of Chaudhary Charan Singh former PM and Chaudhary Devi Lal, Deputy PM of India has left Jats to lament and miss them. They are eager to have at least one national leader but the wait continues to prolong the emergence of one such person who duly qualifies to be said to be national leader!

National leader is one who leads and represents the people of India as a whole not a region or zone only.

It would have been happy moment for us to see Chaudhary Ajit Singh's at the helm of affairs at national level. But as a matter of fact neither he nor any other Jat leader qualifies to be called national leader as of today. The fact is neither R L D led by him has any presence in any other state than in a few districts of western U.P. nor it is a regional party having even its representation in entire area of Uttar Pradesh. Therefore RLD can be termed as a zonal political party.

Thanks
Sir
Ch. Ajit Singh is only Jat Minister in Union Cabinet of India.
Otherwise there is no Jat minister .. Mahadeo Singh Khandela is minister of State that too for Tribal Affairs ..
At least Ch. Ajit Singh should have bargained for a better ministry like Rural Development,Panchayati Raj,Transport,Commerce or Agriculture that could have helped our community

[DrRajpalSingh]

Sir
Ch. Ajit Singh is only Jat Minister in Union Cabinet of India.
Otherwise there is no Jat minister .. Mahadeo Singh Khandela is minister of State that too for Tribal Affairs ..
At least Ch. Ajit Singh should have bargained for a better ministry like Rural Development,Panchayati Raj,Transport,Commerce or Agriculture that could have helped our community

Strange argument.

Are all central ministers National Leaders.

[narvir]

I am sorry friends for disturb you here in a serious discussion.
But anyone can tell me that what is the purpose of this discussion.

[Abhisheksangwan]

Strange argument.

Are all central ministers National Leaders.

Sir
Centre mein jo Cabinet minister hai vo apne aap hi National leader ban gya ...
e.g. Mulayam represents only UP,Mamta represents only West bengal,Nitish Kumar only Bihar,Sharad Pawar only Maharashtra & most important Narendra Modi only Gujarat.
Agar yeh sab candidate Haryana se election ladna chahenge to haar jayenge ... Kehne to to yeh sab National leaders hain .
Manmohan Singh,P.Chidambaram,A.K. Antony & Pranab Mukherjee all are Rajya Sabha candidates ...They do not have public support still they are called national leaders.

Then from Jat Community,there is no national level leader..
In 2009 Lok Sabha,From Congress party
6 Jat MP were from Rajasthan
3 Jat MP were from Haryana
1 Jat MP were from Delhi
3 Jatt Sikh MP were from Punjab
There are Jat MP in Rajya Sabha also like Birender Singh

But only 2 candidates were given Minister of State post viz Mahadeo Singh Khandela(Rajasthan) & Praneet Kaur (Punjab)

There was no Cabinet Minister from our community in UPA-II before Ajit Singh's entry.
Then who is national level leader from our community ?

[swaich]

The more important question is that none of the jat led parties have cross state popularity. So even though western UP and Haryana, are culturally similar, RLD does first not have a base outside UP. Vice versa is true for Haryana parties.

[DrRajpalSingh]

The more important question is that none of the jat led parties have cross state popularity. So even though western UP and Haryana, are culturally similar, RLD does first not have a base outside UP. Vice versa is true for Haryana parties.

No political party can sustain on the exclusive support of any specific caste. In the same way, cultural traits of a segment of society of UP-Haryana or any other two or more states, do not qualify for organizing them into one state.

[swaich]

No political party can sustain on the exclusive support of any specific caste. In the same way, cultural traits of a segment of society of UP-Haryana or any other two or more states, do not qualify for organizing them into one state.

I am not talking from the perspective of combining them into a single state. But I wanted to understand why in spite of a great similarity between groups and cultures between the two regions, no political party has been able to bridge the divide. RLD seems only popular in western UP. Whereas INLD and HVP are only specific to Haryana. At the same time we have a party like BSP which was able to unite Dalits across states. So one would expect some similarity in political expression of the Jats in two states. Is it that the Jats in the two states are divided and have not been able to bridge state lines? If they could unite under a common political party, its demands and issues will get a bigger voice and greater recognition.

[DrRajpalSingh]

Sir
Centre mein jo Cabinet minister hai vo apne aap hi National leader ban gya ...
e.g. Mulayam represents only UP,Mamta represents only West bengal,Nitish Kumar only Bihar,Sharad Pawar only Maharashtra & most important Narendra Modi only Gujarat.
Agar yeh sab candidate Haryana se election ladna chahenge to haar jayenge ... Kehne to to yeh sab National leaders hain .
Manmohan Singh,P.Chidambaram,A.K. Antony & Pranab Mukherjee all are Rajya Sabha candidates ...They do not have public support still they are called national leaders.

Then from Jat Community,there is no national level leader..
In 2009 Lok Sabha,From Congress party
6 Jat MP were from Rajasthan
3 Jat MP were from Haryana
1 Jat MP were from Delhi
3 Jatt Sikh MP were from Punjab
There are Jat MP in Rajya Sabha also like Birender Singh

But only 2 candidates were given Minister of State post viz Mahadeo Singh Khandela(Rajasthan) & Praneet Kaur (Punjab)

There was no Cabinet Minister from our community in UPA-II before Ajit Singh's entry.
Then who is national level leader from our community ?

None!!!

There is difference between a Jat leader and leader of the Jats!!!

In the same way there is a lot of difference between National leader and Member of Cabinet!!!

Did becoming Prime Minister Mr. I K Gujral acquire mantle of national Leader?

Minor correction i your record: Mr Pranab Mukeerji won Lok Sabha elections from West Bengal in the last general elections.
Defeat or victory in one particular election in a specific area does not matter much for the leaders in a democracy. Kindly note that even Smt. Indira Gandhi lost election to Shri Rajnarain in 1977 Lok Sabha elections. Did that electoral reverse disqualify her to much accepted stature of national leader.

Where do you place Ch. Shish Ram Ola, M P [Deputy Leader of Lok Sabha] according to criteria fixed by you?

Charismatic personality, mass appeal and vision to influence and convince people from cross state boundaries about the genuineness of his policy and programmes is the first ingredient that leads to emergence of a NATIONAL LEADER. Judge for yourself if somebody fits in this category.

Thanks

[DrRajpalSingh]

I am not talking from the perspective of combining them into a single state. But I wanted to understand why in spite of a great similarity between groups and cultures between the two regions, no political party has been able to bridge the divide. RLD seems only popular in western UP. Whereas INLD and HVP are only specific to Haryana. At the same time we have a party like BSP which was able to unite Dalits across states. So one would expect some similarity in political expression of the Jats in two states. Is it that the Jats in the two states are divided and have not been able to bridge state lines? If they could unite under a common political party, its demands and issues will get a bigger voice and greater recognition.

Friend,

INLD or RLD are not exclusively Jat Parties of course they are led by the Leaders born in the Jat community but represent 36 biradaries in their areas of influence. Tagging them as Jat parties is a misnomer.

In addition, the political consciousness of the Jats transcends any specific party line. Over the years, the leaders belonging to the community have been playing sterling role in the Indian National Lok Dal, Rashtriya Lok Dal, BJP, Congress, SAD and so on so forth.

This state of affairs must not be construed as divide among the Jats. This shows their higher political consciousness and nationalist character.

[cutejaatsandeep]

I am sorry friends for disturb you here in a serious discussion.
But anyone can tell me that what is the purpose of this discussion.
bhai iska koi purpose nahi hai ye sirf timepass ke liye hai.....western up ke kuch parts western up se hi alag hai culture n language mai n they are comparing it to haryana...like agra mathura palwal aligarh yaha ki language haryana ke interior parts and muzaffarnagar meerut baghpat se bilkul alag hai..

[swaich]

Friend,

INLD or RLD are not exclusively Jat Parties of course they are led by the Leaders born in the Jat community but represent 36 biradaries in their areas of influence. Tagging them as Jat parties is a misnomer.

In addition, the political consciousness of the Jats transcends any specific party line. Over the years, the leaders belonging to the community have been playing sterling role in the Indian National Lok Dal, Rashtriya Lok Dal, BJP, Congress, SAD and so on so forth.

This state of affat not e construed as divide among the Jats. This shows their higher political consciousness and nationalist character.

True. That's one way iof looking at it. But having a party with overwhelming support of both the regions Jats would have made for a tremendous source of support and power.

[krishanpal]

Most of District of Western UP like Baghpat, Muzaffar Nagar, Bijnore, Gaziabad, some area of Meerut have similar cultural of Haryana interior District Rohtak. UP is a very big State having population 22 krore is equal to 12 time of Haryana. Therefore, Haryana and Western UP may make Strong and Very popular State instead making Harit Pradesh of Western UP. Jatt comunity having past experience of War in past time, but in the meantime of so called loktantra, they may think for better of way with making unity for strong influence in Central Politices. Out of total exice of Uttar Pradesh 70% excise is being recovered from Western UP and only 17% is being expended on Western UP.

[Abhisheksangwan]

None!!!

There is difference between a Jat leader and leader of the Jats!!!

In the same way there is a lot of difference between National leader and Member of Cabinet!!!

Did becoming Prime Minister Mr. I K Gujral acquire mantle of national Leader?

Minor correction i your record: Mr Pranab Mukeerji won Lok Sabha elections from West Bengal in the last general elections.
Defeat or victory in one particular election in a specific area does not matter much for the leaders in a democracy. Kindly note that even Smt. Indira Gandhi lost election to Shri Rajnarain in 1977 Lok Sabha elections. Did that electoral reverse disqualify her to much accepted stature of national leader.

Where do you place Ch. Shish Ram Ola, M P [Deputy Leader of Lok Sabha] according to criteria fixed by you?

Charismatic personality, mass appeal and vision to influence and convince people from cross state boundaries about the genuineness of his policy and programmes is the first ingredient that leads to emergence of a NATIONAL LEADER. Judge for yourself if somebody fits in this category.

Thanks
Sir
You considered Ch. Devilal as National Leader but Bhupinder Singh Hooda defeated him 3 times from Rohtak Lok Sabha seat that too consecutively.

Lack of unity among Jats is responsible for this situation where we do not have any National level leader from our community.
As far as INLD,RLD or SAD is considered no matter they represent 36 biradris but we will always get Jat CM from these parties which is most important for survival of Jats in politics.
Otherwise everyone is aware that Congress or BJP can give non-Jat CM.
Jats can never forget anti-Jat policies of Bhajanlal & Ashok Gehlot (in present scenario)

[DrRajpalSingh]

Sir
You considered Ch. Devilal as National Leader but Bhupinder Singh Hooda defeated him 3 times from Rohtak Lok Sabha seat that too consecutively.

Lack of unity among Jats is responsible for this situation where we do not have any National level leader from our community.
As far as INLD,RLD or SAD is considered no matter they represent 36 biradris but we will always get Jat CM from these parties which is most important for survival of Jats in politics.
Otherwise everyone is aware that Congress or BJP can give non-Jat CM.
Jats can never forget anti-Jat policies of Bhajanlal & Ashok Gehlot (in present scenario)

Friend,

In democracy defeat or victory is a part of political process. It is true Ch B S Hooda defeated Jananayak Chaudhary Devi Lal two times [not 3 times] but this did not deter the latter to remain at the centre stage of the national politics till he breathed his last ! He was a man of masses whose call to people was received with due attention in Haryana, Punjab, Rajasthan, Bihar, Uttar Pradesh and in far flung areas of the deccan India. That is why he remains to be the last of the great national Jat leaders. He was Jat by caste not casteist leader who possessed charismatic character to influence the peoples' mind.

Moreover, his INLD candidate Ch. Inder Singh trounced Ch. B S Hooda in the subsequent Lok Sabha general elections.

You are also wrong to say that BJP and Congress give non Jat C Ms. Congress CMs. of Punjab P S Kairon, Gill, Darbara Singh; Bansi Lal, B.S, Hooda Haryana CMs; Paras Ram Madrena Rajasthan C.M.
Smt. Vasundhara Raje married in the Dholpur Jat Ruling house, BJP CM of Rajasthan.

My good friend, permit me to say that it would be in the fitness of things if you update yourself about the topic by studying relevant literature and then come to post your views with authentic data!

Thanks and blessings

[tarzon]

Before 1966 I don't think there was so much difference between West UP and East UP economically. Even East UP was more progressive at that time in comparison to West UP. West UP started the progress only after Green revolution.


Reason is that these Districts are backbone of U.P. , these Districts are income source of UP . Whole the money spend in east up was earned by west up .

[swaich]

bhai iska koi purpose nahi hai ye sirf timepass ke liye hai.....western up ke kuch parts western up se hi alag hai culture n language mai n they are comparing it to haryana...like agra mathura palwal aligarh yaha ki language haryana ke interior parts and muzaffarnagar meerut baghpat se bilkul alag hai..

You are right. When you say western UP which is similar to Haryana you mean the areas of the upper doab like Moradabad, Baghpat etc. The areas you are talking about is known as Braj (Mathura, Agra) is indeed different from Haryana or the Khari boli spoken in parts of western UP. Check the following link for more clarity:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/UP_region_map.gif

[tarzon]

In Haryana itself we can find 2-3 variant. Like Faridabad, Gurgaon, Ballabgarh, Palwal, Hodal, Mewat their dailect is bot different and more closer to the dialect of Aligarh, Bulandsahar Mathura and Agra.

Ambala, Panchkula and adjoining district to Punjab have Punjabi touch.

The adjoining district of Rajshthan like Mahendergarh etc have Rajshthani touch.

The dialect in Haryanvi have many variant like in aday kaday uday, eit utt kit, inghay unghay kinghay (used in Merrut, Bagpat Muzzafarnagar area, might be in some part of Haryana as well ) munnay tannay, majhay tajhay, humbay, aaho and many more from different area of Haryana and West UP.

so these word vary from area to area but we still call them part of one culture, which spread from Haryana to many district of West UP.


bhai iska koi purpose nahi hai ye sirf timepass ke liye hai.....western up ke kuch parts western up se hi alag hai culture n language mai n they are comparing it to haryana...like agra mathura palwal aligarh yaha ki language haryana ke interior parts and muzaffarnagar meerut baghpat se bilkul alag hai..

[nrao]

Dr Rajpal Singh,

Thank you. This is very good information. As it is becoming more acceptable that Saraswati river was indeed flowing through Haryana and Vedas were composed here as well. Do you think there were Jats present at that time around Saraswati and find mention in Ved?



Haryana is cradle of the Indian culture and civilisation where mantras of the Vedas were enchanted first at the banks of the River Saraswati. {The river was considered most mighty as to the volume of water it carried and venerated more profusely then the Ganges in the yore}. The famous battle of Bharata known as Mahabharata, three battles of Panipat, Battles of Tarain 1191-92, Battle of Karnal 1739 and peoples rise against the British occupation of the region since 1803 onwards is the testimony of the existence of this prime land in the forefront of the national polity! What more identity is required to prove than this. The Palam Boali Inscription contains its name as Haryana. Thanesar [now Kurukshetra] was the seat of power of Harashvardhan Pushyabhuti.

Above all, this is the place where SriKrishana delivered the immortal sandesh contained in the Gita!

Political expediency denied bifurcation of Uttar Pradesh in 1956 because Pandit Jawahar Lal Nehru, the Prime Minister and Pt. Govind Ballbh Pant, the then Home Minister wanted not to weaken the hold of UP on national politics. Moreover, the fertile area comprising western UP district is the wheat and rice bowl of Hilly area of the State. Their inclusion in Haryana would have led to adverse impact on economy of the state too.

No doubt, geographical demarcation of Haryana of the past years remained embedded in the minds of people, political entity of Haryana was tried to be eliminated by parceling out its territories to several Sikh Rulers, and cutting off Delhi district from it, and severing it from NW United Provinces and tagging major part of Haryana with the then Punjab state as a part of punishment to the people of Haryana for their participation in the First War of Indian Independence faught in 1857-58.

[DrRajpalSingh]

Dr Rajpal Singh,

Thank you. This is very good information. As it is becoming more acceptable that Saraswati river was indeed flowing through Haryana and Vedas were composed here as well. Do you think there were Jats present at that time around Saraswati and find mention in Ved?

Friend,

I have no hesitation in admitting that I am no authority on the Vedas!

Thanks.

[anilsangwan]

हैः मेरे यारो .... या भी के बात हुयी..... हरयाणा आर वेस्टर्न यूपी ऩे एक साथ ल्यावन का एक ए तरीका स...... रिश्तेदारी करो आपस में ज्यादा तें ज्यादा...... एर इस तें मेल मिलाप बढेगा ..... एक दुसरे के बारे में जो गलत धारणा सें वो बदलेंगे .... एर जब दस पन्द्राह साल में इसा काम हो जागा आक दोनों साइड के लोग मिल के एक पार्टी ऩे समर्थन करो..... इनका तो बाप भी सोचन पे मजबूर हो जागा.... आक जाट नहीं तो धरती तें खो देंगे....!!!

[DrRajpalSingh]

In Haryana itself we can find 2-3 variant. Like Faridabad, Gurgaon, Ballabgarh, Palwal, Hodal, Mewat their dailect is bot different and more closer to the dialect of Aligarh, Bulandsahar Mathura and Agra.

Ambala, Panchkula and adjoining district to Punjab have Punjabi touch.

The adjoining district of Rajshthan like Mahendergarh etc have Rajshthani touch.

The dialect in Haryanvi have many variant like in aday kaday uday, eit utt kit, inghay unghay kinghay (used in Merrut, Bagpat Muzzafarnagar area, might be in some part of Haryana as well ) munnay tannay, majhay tajhay, humbay, aaho and many more from different area of Haryana and West UP.

so these word vary from area to area but we still call them part of one culture, which spread from Haryana to many district of West UP.

Cultural ties would be further cemented if one pays heed to Anil Sangwan's suggestion : " हरयाणा आर वेस्टर्न यूपी ऩे एक साथ ल्यावन का एक ए तरीका स...... रिश्तेदारी करो आपस में ज्यादा तें ज्यादा...... एर इस तें मेल मिलाप बढेगा ..... एक दुसरे के बारे में जो गलत धारणा सें वो बदलेंगे ..."

Are there any takers of the idea?

Thanks.

[swaich]

हैः मेरे यारो .... या भी के बात हुयी..... हरयाणा आर वेस्टर्न यूपी ऩे एक साथ ल्यावन का एक ए तरीका स...... रिश्तेदारी करो आपस में ज्यादा तें ज्यादा...... एर इस तें मेल मिलाप बढेगा ..... एक दुसरे के बारे में जो गलत धारणा सें वो बदलेंगे .... एर जब दस पन्द्राह साल में इसा काम हो जागा आक दोनों साइड के लोग मिल के एक पार्टी ऩे समर्थन करो..... इनका तो बाप भी सोचन पे मजबूर हो जागा.... आक जाट नहीं तो धरती तें खो देंगे....!!!

Are marriage alliances uncommon between the two regions?

[anilsangwan]

Are there any takers of the idea?



Takers ना भी सें तो के में काली मानु सु Dr saab..... Yo मेरा अपना विचार स...... कोए जबरदस्ती थोड़ी स किसे पे....!!! चाहे आप भी ना मानो... मेरी सेहत पे के असर पड़े स....!

[Malikpriya]

Takers ना भी सें तो के में काली मानु सु Dr saab..... Yo मेरा अपना विचार स...... कोए जबरदस्ती थोड़ी स किसे पे....!!! चाहे आप भी ना मानो... मेरी सेहत पे के असर पड़े स....!

Western UP or haryana ko ek sath jod k kyu duniyaa ka nash karo ho..........:stupid:

Is baat ko kabhi b ni maana jayga kyunki agar aisa ho gaya to in non jaats k naak me lath aa jaga inhe jutti ser pe rakh k bhaagna padegaa....!!

[tarzon]

Not sure about other, but we've relationship in Haryana. :)


Cultural ties would be further cemented if one pays heed to Anil Sangwan's suggestion : " हरयाणा आर वेस्टर्न यूपी ऩे एक साथ ल्यावन का एक ए तरीका स...... रिश्तेदारी करो आपस में ज्यादा तें ज्यादा...... एर इस तें मेल मिलाप बढेगा ..... एक दुसरे के बारे में जो गलत धारणा सें वो बदलेंगे ..."

Are there any takers of the idea?

Thanks.

[jitender_singh]

sahee baat ..apne toh 3 jagah rishtedaari hai haryana up ar delhi :) haan door ki rajasthan main bhi mil jaayegi

[rinkusheoran]

हैः मेरे यारो .... या भी के बात हुयी..... हरयाणा आर वेस्टर्न यूपी ऩे एक साथ ल्यावन का एक ए तरीका स...... रिश्तेदारी करो आपस में ज्यादा तें ज्यादा...... एर इस तें मेल मिलाप बढेगा ..... एक दुसरे के बारे में जो गलत धारणा सें वो बदलेंगे .... एर जब दस पन्द्राह साल में इसा काम हो जागा आक दोनों साइड के लोग मिल के एक पार्टी ऩे समर्थन करो..... इनका तो बाप भी सोचन पे मजबूर हो जागा.... आक जाट नहीं तो धरती तें खो देंगे....!!!

anil, this is reason why we are fighting got OBC status, once we come in OBC we will be in level with UP n Delhi JATS, uss pachhe riste karenegey ;)

PS:- Anil tera byah na hua sai to to le koi :)

[DrRajpalSingh]

anil, this is reason why we are fighting got OBC status, once we come in OBC we will be in level with UP n Delhi JATS, uss pachhe riste karenegey ;)

PS:- Anil tera byah na hua sai to to le koi :)

Good twist to thread debate! In addition to OBC status, what other criterion do you expect to be fulfilled or fixed for inter-state and intra state matrimonial alliances/ relations. They are already in vogue among the Jats of bordering districts of various states which is a well known fact to all.

Thanks

[DrRajpalSingh]

Takers ना भी सें तो के में काली मानु सु Dr saab..... Yo मेरा अपना विचार स...... कोए जबरदस्ती थोड़ी स किसे पे....!!! चाहे आप भी ना मानो... मेरी सेहत पे के असर पड़े स....!

Bhai aap ke vichar pragat karne aur aapki sehat ka to mein pura sanman karata huen prantu aapko bhi gussa kabu mein rakhne ki aadat dalni chahiye tabhi aapki sehat badhiya bani rahegi. Jab aap ko asahmat hone ka adhikaar hai to dusron ko bhi aap is adhikaar ka prayog karane deven; mera yahi kahana tha.

Kya aap samjhate hain kee kabhi bhi puri Jat community ek hi political party ko vote degi? aaj ke halat ko dekhkar to aisa nahin lagata.

Thanks






p

[rekhasmriti]

bro not sure about my facts

but what i have told long time back was-------hum punjab se alag huye the ----woh jahan max jat population thi

so division koi across india nahi hua tha on the basis on culture

bhai not sure----bas suna tha



I can understand that United Provinces which included western UP was always a separate state but when State Reorganization Commission was setup whose main responsibility was to redefine to boundary of state throughout India then the fact of United Provinces doesn't hold the water. So don't know exactly why State Reorganization Commission didn't consider to include these adjoining district of West UP in Haryana...

[rekhasmriti]

thnx----
i was not aware of same


Haryana was not formed as a result of reorganisation of states commission report 1956.

People of Haryana had submitted demand before the states reorganisation commission in 1955-56 demanding carving out Haryana comprising Hindi Speaking areas of the then Punjab, Western Uttaer Pradesh, Delhi and districts of Jhunjhunu, Bharatpur, Sriganganagar etc in Rajasthan on the basis of historical, cultural and historical affinity. But the then central government rejected their plea on the basis of keeping the border state of India Punjab as a strong unit of the Union of India.

However it led to dissatisfaction among the Sikhs of Punjab and Haryanavis. Haryana was carved out due to struggle carried out by the people of Haryana and the Punjab on linguistic reorganisation of the then Punjab on 1st November, 1966. Some areas of the then Punjab were merged with Himachal Pradesh and a new Union Territory namely Chandigarh also came into existence.

[rekhasmriti]

" Then who is national level leader from our community ?"

this should be the statement of all Jat movements

who is our leader-----------



Sir
Centre mein jo Cabinet minister hai vo apne aap hi National leader ban gya ...
e.g. Mulayam represents only UP,Mamta represents only West bengal,Nitish Kumar only Bihar,Sharad Pawar only Maharashtra & most important Narendra Modi only Gujarat.
Agar yeh sab candidate Haryana se election ladna chahenge to haar jayenge ... Kehne to to yeh sab National leaders hain .
Manmohan Singh,P.Chidambaram,A.K. Antony & Pranab Mukherjee all are Rajya Sabha candidates ...They do not have public support still they are called national leaders.

Then from Jat Community,there is no national level leader..
In 2009 Lok Sabha,From Congress party
6 Jat MP were from Rajasthan
3 Jat MP were from Haryana
1 Jat MP were from Delhi
3 Jatt Sikh MP were from Punjab
There are Jat MP in Rajya Sabha also like Birender Singh

But only 2 candidates were given Minister of State post viz Mahadeo Singh Khandela(Rajasthan) & Praneet Kaur (Punjab)

There was no Cabinet Minister from our community in UPA-II before Ajit Singh's entry.
Then who is national level leader from our community ?

[rekhasmriti]

priya g---
phir toh try karna banta hai

who knows----in that case ----agla pm bhi humara
cm bhi

n president bhi

kar lo kya karoge


Western UP or haryana ko ek sath jod k kyu duniyaa ka nash karo ho..........:stupid:

Is baat ko kabhi b ni maana jayga kyunki agar aisa ho gaya to in non jaats k naak me lath aa jaga inhe jutti ser pe rakh k bhaagna padegaa....!!

[puneetlakra]

Are marriage alliances uncommon between the two regions?Yes , not the first preference from both sides

[swaich]

bro not sure about my facts

but what i have told long time back was-------hum punjab se alag huye the ----woh jahan max jat population thi

so division koi across india nahi hua tha on the basis on culture

bhai not sure----bas suna tha

Mix Jat population?

[bsbana]

Mathura,etc fall under Brij region, these districts are culturally similar to Bharatpur, Dholpur,etc of Rajasthan. I think, western UP should be divided and it's khari boli speaking region should be merged with Haryana and Brij speaking region should be merged with Rajasthan. What about Rohilakhand then ?

[phoolkumar]

The Haryanav which lives across the banks and plains of Ganges-Yamuna-Sarswati-Sutlej.


Ancient as well as present day Haryanvi speaking area and its annoyance: Nothing can be cruel and ridiculous for a state where its own history and culture find minimal mentioning in books of its own state board for education. It has been a province which was kept bifurcated as a punishment to its fierce revolutions and stern calls against time to time found foreign invaders turned rulers {e.g. 1857' first revolution for Indian independence as a post-result of which Dilli (Delhi) and Western U.P. were carved out from Haryana and rest of western Haryana was tagged into the then Punjab states, though the roots of this bifurcation watered back in 1803, with entry of several farmers and peasantry agitations led by local farming revolutionists in regions across Gohad, Rohtak and Agra.} in pre-independence history of India.

In 1955, newly formed government of independent India formed a commission for the reorganization of her states, internal territories and provinces on the besis of language, culture, life-style and historical affinity. People of Haryana had submitted demand before this commission in 1955-56 demanding carving out of Haryana comprising of its historically bifurcated Hindi speaking areas of the then Punjab, Western Uttar Pradesh, Delhi and districts of Jhunjhunu, Bharatpur, Sriganganagar, Alwar and Dheeg in Rajasthan on the basis of cultural, linguistically (Haryanvi dialectical accent) and historical affinity (like Bharatpur riyasat was spread across borders of modern day Rohtak, Jhajjar, Gurgaon and Faridabad). But the then central government rejected their plea on the basis of keeping the border state of India Punjab as a strong unit of the Union of India, keeping the stronghold of U.P. in central politics and the fertile area of western U.P. {eastern part of bowl of grains (full bowl comprises of Punjab, Haryana and Western U.P.)} which otherwise had put an adverse affect on economy of U.P. as a whole.

However it led to dissatisfaction among the Haryanavies and friction continued till 1966 when Haryana was carved out on the basis of linguistic reorganization of the then Punjab on 1st November, 1966. The Pahadi languages spoken areas of the then Punjab were merged with Himachal Pradesh and a new Union Territory namely Chandigarh also came into existence. Even in 1966, the then 1955' demanded Haryana reorgnaization was not fulfilled and the rest of region is still going bifurcated.

Haryana will be a complete state in true sense when these regions of Western U.P., Dilli, districts of northern Rajsthan, some more Hindi (Haryanvi) speaking regions left with Punjab alongwith modern day Haryana would be merged as one state. Below map shows how it will look alike if this so long awaited demand of people is met. But now it seems in the deep interest of current ambitious domestic politics to carry on the flay.







Image: Borders of Ancient Haryana Province in red lines. Look for the image from given link below, this image is also on other posts at JL itself.




Historical facts of ancient Haryana: The Palam Boali Inscription which deals with period of Prithvi Raj Chouhan, contains its name as Haryana Desh. But Haryana as a country is recorded much before by Jain poet Vibudh Sridhar in his book Pasanah Chariu in times of Mahipal tomar. Here he mentions about Haryana Desh, its capital and charcter of its people:

"There are countless villages in Haryana country. The villagers there work hard. They don't accept domination of others, and are experts in making the blood of their enemies flow. God Indra himself praises this country. The capital of this country is Dilli. So this book clearly found Dilli as capital of Haryana of ancient times.

A cursory glance on glory and importance of ancient Haryana: Haryana is a cradle of the Indian culture and civilization where mantras of the Vedas were enchanted first at the banks of the River Saraswati. (The river was considered most mighty as to the volume of water it carried and venerated more profusely than the Ganges in the yore). This is the place where SriKrishana delivered the immortal preaching’s contained in the Sreemad Bhagwad Gita!
The famous battle of Bharata known as Mahabharata {This battle is said to be fought over 48 suare Kosh (miles) which makes it almost 80 kms radius of land taking Kurukshetra as center, with an estimation its circumference goes upto Jind district in south, Patiala in west, Ambala in north and Shamli-Saharanpur-Hastinapur in Western U.P. and of course the current day Dilli (the Indraparsth of that period) and Hastinapur was the focal point of the whole epic. And if to take the full expansion of region then who can forget to mention Mathura and Braj area below Dilli, where the central legend of this epic hails from}.
Beside Mahabharta, three battles of Panipat, battles of Tarain 1191-92, battle of Karnal 1739 and rise of farmers and peasants against the British occupation of the region since 1803 onwards is the testimony of the existence of this prime land in the forefront of the national politics land. Thanesar (now in Kurukshetra) was the seat of power of Khap lover Maharaja Harashvardhan Pushyabhuti during period of 643 A.D.


Types of Haryanvi spoken in modern day: Currently Haryanvi falls under Indo Iranian > Indo-Aryan > Central zone > Western Hindi > Haryanvi, language family chain. Below is how the family of Haryanvi language can be distributed on geographic map:

Khaadar: Spoken in the belt of Karnal-Panipat and Sonipat belt.
Deshwali: Spoken in Rohatak, Jhajjar, southern districts of Jind in Haryana and central-north-western belt of Dilli. The native residents of Dilli are Haryanvi speaking. It is spoken in some parts of Hissar, Bhiwani and Mahandergadh. Deshwali is spoken in Sonipat along with Khaadar.
Bangru: Spoken in districts of Kaithal, Jind, north-eastern Hissar and eastern Fatehabad.
Bagdi: Spoken in Sirsa, west-southern Hissar, western Fatehabad, Bhiwani, Mahendragarh belts of Haryana and Jhunjhnu, Sreeganganagar, Churu, Hanumangarh and Rajgarh belt of Rajsthan and Fazilka, Abohar belt of Punjab.
Khadi Boli: Mainly spoken in belt of Western UP and eastern Dilli and with a mixture of Khaadar in Karnal-Panipat-Kurukshetra-Yamunanagar region.
Rangdi: Spoken in borderning Pakistan. It is the language of Haryanvi Hindus turned Muslims and later on migrated to Pakistan in 1947.
Braj Bhasha: Spoken in Faridabad, Agra, Mathura belt of U.P. and Alwar, Dheeg and Bharatpur belt of Rajsthan.
Kourvi: Spoken in Karnal, Kurukshetra, Panipat, Yamunanagar, Ambala, Meerut, Saharanpur, Kalka and Panchkula.
Mewati: Spoken in Gurgaon, Rewari and Narnoul.
Ahirawati: Spoken in regions of Rewari, Mahendergarh and Narnoul, it is shared Mewati Haryanvi. Other than this parts of Tahseels of Jajhjhar, Dadri, Bhiwani of Haryana and Bahrod, Mundavar and baansur of Rajsthan are also counts in Ahirawati.

So in this way we can see that various forms of Haryavi is spoken on a vaste area of India which comprise of around 4 to 5 crores a minimum of Indian population.

It is just not the language but our cultural values, ethics, social norms also presents a unanimous similarity. We tie marriage knots, relations of brotherhood and family clans like Tapa, Khaps, tilldate throughout presence of ages old social democracy of Khaps, all together gives a rigid strength to call this region as a whole "The Original Haryana".

Special Note: NH-AB supports the status of "Rajbhasha" for Haryanvi in Indian Languages. We appreciate all such kind of initiatives and lobbying by our local political leaders like Rohtak MP Ch. Deepender Hooda and Kurukshetra MP Mr. Naveen Jindal to get Rajbhasha status for Haryanvi in National Parliament. Of course it is enough proof to bargain for a Rajbhasha status a minimum as this is a language of around 4 to 5 crores people of India.

Note: This article is written purely with intention of describing the history of ancient Haryana and its geographical expension on the basis of language and culture affinity. So in no way it should seen as any kind of contradiction to current Indian fabric and interests. We also ask you to correct us on any point if found missing the facts. More content will be added to article with time.



Source: http://www.nidanaheights.com/choupal-d1.html

[phoolkumar]

आज का हरियाणा!



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1966 को हरियाणा का जन्म वर्ष नहीं बल्कि पुनर्गठन वर्ष कहिये|



आज का हरियाणा 1857 से पहले के हरियाणा का एक हिस्सा है| उस हरियाणा का हिस्सा जिसमें कि आज का हरियाणा, दिल्ली, उत्तरी राजस्थान और पश्चिमी उत्तर प्रदेश होते थे| उस वक्त क्योंकि खाप सेनाओं ने इस क्षेत्र में अंग्रेजों को नाकों चने चबवाए थे, इसलिए 1857 के गदर को दबाने के बाद, इस खाप-एकता को तोड़ने के लिए अंग्रेजों नें इसके चार टुकड़े कर एक पंजाब में मिला दिया था, दिल्ली क्षेत्र को अपनी कार्यवाहियों का केंद्र बनाने हेतु अपने पास रखा (जो कि 1911 में साबित भी हुआ जब भारत की राजधानी कलकत्ता से दिल्ली लाइ गई), पश्चिमी उत्तर प्रदेश को आज के उत्तर प्रदेश में मिला दिया और उत्तरी राजस्थान को उस वक्त के राजस्थान में मिला दिया| यह तोड़ना ईतना सख्त था कि अंग्रेजों ने यमुना के आर-पार तो शादियों तक पर भी रोक लगा दी थी| सो आज का हरियाणा पूरा हरियाणा नहीं है, दिल्ली, उत्तरी राजस्थान और पश्चिमी उत्तर प्रदेश आज भी इससे काट के रखे हुए हैं| यह तथ्य इस बात से भी प्रमाणित होता है कि हरियाणा, दिल्ली, उत्तरी राजस्थान और पश्चिमी उत्तर प्रदेश में ही खापें हैं और हरियाणवी भाषा के भिन्न-भिन्न रूप ही इस क्षेत्र के मूलनिवासियों की भाषा है|

[nainsunil007]

आज का हरियाणा!


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1966 को हरियाणा का जन्म वर्ष नहीं बल्कि पुनर्गठन वर्ष कहिये|



आज का हरियाणा 1857 से पहले के हरियाणा का एक हिस्सा है| उस हरियाणा का हिस्सा जिसमें कि आज का हरियाणा, दिल्ली, उत्तरी राजस्थान और पश्चिमी उत्तर प्रदेश होते थे| उस वक्त क्योंकि खाप सेनाओं ने इस क्षेत्र में अंग्रेजों को नाकों चने चबवाए थे, इसलिए 1857 के गदर को दबाने के बाद, इस खाप-एकता को तोड़ने के लिए अंग्रेजों नें इसके चार टुकड़े कर एक पंजाब में मिला दिया था, दिल्ली क्षेत्र को अपनी कार्यवाहियों का केंद्र बनाने हेतु अपने पास रखा (जो कि 1911 में साबित भी हुआ जब भारत की राजधानी कलकत्ता से दिल्ली लाइ गई), पश्चिमी उत्तर प्रदेश को आज के उत्तर प्रदेश में मिला दिया और उत्तरी राजस्थान को उस वक्त के राजस्थान में मिला दिया| यह तोड़ना ईतना सख्त था कि अंग्रेजों ने यमुना के आर-पार तो शादियों तक पर भी रोक लगा दी थी| सो आज का हरियाणा पूरा हरियाणा नहीं है, दिल्ली, उत्तरी राजस्थान और पश्चिमी उत्तर प्रदेश आज भी इससे काट के रखे हुए हैं| यह तथ्य इस बात से भी प्रमाणित होता है कि हरियाणा, दिल्ली, उत्तरी राजस्थान और पश्चिमी उत्तर प्रदेश में ही खापें हैं और हरियाणवी भाषा के भिन्न-भिन्न रूप ही इस क्षेत्र के मूलनिवासियों की भाषा है|




ohh bhai........ apne iss haryane ne aake dekhe bhi le, kadd tai paris me pada rahvega

[phoolkumar]

Nain Sahab, bas ib ke kahu aapko....emotional mahaul bana diya kati....mat maarai bina aai...rai bairi....)))


ohh bhai........ apne iss haryane ne aake dekhe bhi le, kadd tai paris me pada rahvega

[desijat]

Brilliant discussion, I agree with Anil's view of cultural exchange.

[bajwajatt]

punjab suba was never a demand of sikh masses ....

[DrRajpalSingh]

punjab suba was never a demand of sikh masses ....


Yes, you are right; It was the demand of the 'Sikh leadership'.

[swaich]

punjab suba was never a demand of sikh masses ....

Are we saying the Akali leaders demanding Punjabi Suba did not have the support of the masses?

[bajwajatt]

yes punjabi suba was a non-issue in 60s and even today its not a issue for sikh masses.....
Are we saying the Akali leaders demanding Punjabi Suba did not have the support of the masses?

[bajwajatt]

in reality majority of sikhs are not as radical in their religious approach as you guys(jatland) think....

[swaich]

yes punjabi suba was a non-issue in 60s and even today its not a issue for sikh masses.....

There is no Punjabi Suba movement today. Are you referring to the Khalistan movement? I think most people realize its mostly a far fetched of Sikhs residing in the West.

I was born two decades after the issue, so my information is based on secondary sources. But I am surprised to know that a movement that had the support of most of the Sikh leadership, if not all, didnt have support of the masses.

[DrRajpalSingh]

Are we saying the Akali leaders demanding Punjabi Suba did not have the support of the masses?

If we take the wider connotation of the word 'masses' comprising all sections and segments of society of the then Punjab, the answer is YES.

From 1955 to 1965, the reorganisation of the then Punjab remained a hot demand of Sikh leadership {SGPC/SAD} first led by Master Tara Singh, whose demand was 'Sikh Majority suba' and was opposed by Chief Minister, S. P S Kairon, and PM Pt. Jawahar Lal Nehru as 'communal demand' .

But, later on, when Mr. Nehru, Mr.Kairon and Master Tara Singh were not at the helm of affairs and leaders spear-heading the demand of the Punjabi Suba like SGPC President Sant Fateh Singh turned the longstanding demand of reorganisation of Punjab into linguistic based reorganisation {not a Sikhs' demand] succeeded to get the support of the Hindi Speaking area leaders [of modern Haryana state] also in full measure. And thus it assumed the shape of the demand of majority support if not of the Masses of the Punjab.

This move convinced the then leadership of the Central Government about the desirability to concede their demand to create a peaceful atmosphere in the region by agreeing to reorganise Punjab and thus Punjab was reorganised into three states and Chandigarh UT; Kangra district merged with HP, Hindi Speaking Haryana and Punjabi speaking Punjab on 1st November 1966.

[swaich]

If we take the wider connotation of the word 'masses' comprising all sections and segments of society of the then Punjab, the answer is YES.

From 1955 to 1965, the reorganisation of the then Punjab remained a hot demand of Sikh leadership {SGPC/SAD} first led by Master Tara Singh, whose demand was 'Sikh Majority suba' and was opposed by Chief Minister, S. P S Kairon, and PM Pt. Jawahar Lal Nehru as 'communal demand' .

But the later on, when Mr. Nehru, Mr.Kairon and Master Tara Singh were not at the helm of affairs and leaders spear-heading the demand of the Punjabi Suba like SGPC President Sant Fateh Singh turned the longstanding demand of reorganisation of Punjab into linguistic based reorganisation {not a Sikhs' demand] succeeded to get the support of the Hindi Speaking area leaders [of modern Haryana state] also in full measure. And thus it assumed the shape of the demand of majority support if not of the Masses of the Punjab.

This move convinced the then leadership of the Central Government about the desirability to concede their demand to create a peaceful atmosphere in the region by agreeing to reorganise Punjab and thus Punjab was reorganised into three states and Chandigarh UT; Kangra district merged with HP, Hindi Speaking Haryana and Punjabi speaking Punjab on 1st November 1966.

Rajpal ji, if I understood your post accurately, the Punjabi Suba demand started out as a demand for a Sikh majority state, but to widen its appeal it was later converted into a linguistic demand i.e. the Punjabi Suba.

Could you please share links, resources to support this point of yours?

I ask since I understood it to be the other way round. When the states were reorganized in the 1950s on a linguistic basis, there was a demand for a Punjabi Suba as a state for the speakers of Punjabi. This was on line with the other states that came into existence during that time. It was later when the differences were deepened and political games were played out between the Akalis on one side and Congress and Lala Jagat Narain on another that religious differences crept in, and the off shoots of the Suba movement gave birth to drastic demands such as separatism.

[DrRajpalSingh]

Rajpal ji, if I understood your post accurately, the Punjabi Suba demand started out as a demand for a Sikh majority state, but to widen its appeal it was later converted into a linguistic demand i.e. the Punjabi Suba.

Could you please share links, resources to support this point of yours?

I ask since I understood it to be the other way round. When the states were reorganized in the 1950s on a linguistic basis, there was a demand for a Punjabi Suba as a state for the speakers of Punjabi. This was on line with the other states that came into existence during that time. It was later when the differences were deepened and political games were played out between the Akalis on one side and Congress and Lala Jagat Narain on another that religious differences crept in, and the off shoots of the Suba movement gave birth to drastic demands such as separatism.

Friend,

Whatever little I know about the issue, I am putting down as bare outline which could stimulate one to take deeper insight into the issue under discussion by studying original mass of literature.

To understand the genesis of the problem, we have to go to Pre-Independence period. When Muslim League raised the issue of separate State, the Congress and all other political parties opposed it including the SGPC leadership of the day.

But when the boundary commission was appointed for demarcation of the new State of Pakistan based on Muslim Majority region, Master Tara Singh initially threatened to oppose the partition of India and, later on, he, along with other leaders of the Sikh community put forward demand of a Sikh Home Land. But the Boundary commission found itself in helpless position to concede this demand as no Sikh Majority area except one Tehsil in pre partition India was found to meet the majority area for 'Sikh Home Land.'

After Partition the demographic structure of the East Punjab changed drastically as majority of the Sikhs who came over from the newly founded Pakistan region settled here and with the merger of the PEPSU, the now Punjab State region became Sikh Majority area.

When Reorganisation Commission for States on Linguistic Basis was appointed, the claims and counter claims of Hindi Speaking and Punjabi speaking people were examined and were rejected in view of the strategic importance of the region in view of persistently looming danger of attack of Pakistan.[ It was also rejected in case of division of the then Bombay State into Gujarati and Marathi speaking state, too.]

However, merger of SAD into Congress kept the demand in cold storage for some time and later tussle for capturing SGPC by some Sikh leaders belonging to or blessed by the Congress, antagonized Master Tara Singh, who was indisputed leader of the Sikhs at that time. The SAD was revived and the demand for separate Sikh Majority state was revived. The organisation of the two regional committees for Hindi Speaking and Punjabi Speaking regions under Sachar Committee formula also could not satisfy people of either region.

The rest of the outline of the details have been given in the earlier post by me.

For further studies, a few books are listed below :

Khushwant Singh, The History of the Sikhs, Vol. II.
Dr. Gopal Singh, History of the Sikh People.
Dr. Raj Pal singh, Sikhs-Their Journey of Five hundred Years.

After studying any of the above mentioned books, original sources could be consulted to make one's own point of view on the very interesting but intricate issue.

Thanks

[bajwajatt]

What I'm Trying To Say is at majority of sikhs dont consider creation of punjabi suba as any great achivement of akalis
There is no Punjabi Suba movement today. Are you referring to the Khalistan movement? I think most people realize its mostly a far fetched of Sikhs residing in the West.

I was born two decades after the issue, so my information is based on secondary sources. But I am surprised to know that a movement that had the support of most of the Sikh leadership, if not all, didnt have support of the masses.

[abhisheklakda]

Baghpat-Shamli aur Sonipat-Shamli me rishtedari normal h, Baraut-Shamli area me har gaam me 1-2 rishtedari Rohtak-Jind ki bhi mil jayegi, Jabki Bijnaur-Bulandshahar ki rishtedari mushkil se milti h........

[abhisheklakda]

17844 Mughal time me Haryana naam se koi subah(state) nahi tha, west up bhi 2 state me divide tha, brij area Agra subah me padta tha, jabki Meerut area Delhi subah me tha , punjab naam ka bhi koi state nahi tha, punjab ka sarhind area Delhi subah me padta tha, jabki baki Subah-e-Lahore me tha, British logo ne 1857 ke baad inko apne hisab se divide kiya, Delhi sube ke Meerut area ko Awadh aur Agra sube me jod diya, Maujuda Haryan ko North Western Proviance ke sath joda, jisko baad me 1878 ke aaspas Punjab me jod diya.......
17845 maujuda UP me Mughal time k 4 state mile hue, Agra+Delhi+Awadh+Allahbad, isko naam diya gya tha United Province of Agra and Awadh. Ye Meerut area ko diya gya punishment tha, khaskar "Desh"(Baraut area) ko bilkul alag thalag kar diya gya tha..........
Gandhi ne bhi Punjab ko divide karke Meerut/Ambala/Rohtak ko milakar alag state banane ki baat ki thi, jisko sir chhoturam ji ne oppose kiya tha.........
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