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desijat
November 18th, 2012, 09:52 AM
We love him or hate him, fact is that he is, or was a stalwart who had no matching across India. There are several regional parties that exist with regional leaders, for example Baadals, Choutalas, Abdullas, Yadavs but the charisma of Thackrey does not even come near to any of these leaders.

Curious to know what was it that made him the Thackrey he is, and will remain forever?

deshi-jat
November 18th, 2012, 10:09 AM
उनकी जगह कोई और नहीं ले सकता। एक युग का अंत हो गया। भारतवर्ष को उन जैसे बेबाक कट्टर राष्ट्रभक्त की कमी खलेगी। भगवान उनकी आत्मा को शांति दे।


We love him or hate him, fact is that he is, or was a stalwart who had no matching across India. There are several regional parties that exist with regional leaders, for example Baadals, Choutalas, Abdullas, Yadavs but the charisma of Thackrey does not even come near to any of these leaders.

Curious to know what was it that made him the Thackrey he is, and will remain forever?

DrRajpalSingh
November 18th, 2012, 10:28 AM
We love him or hate him, fact is that he is, or was a stalwart who had no matching across India. There are several regional parties that exist with regional leaders, for example Baadals, Choutalas, Abdullas, Yadavs but the charisma of Thackrey does not even come near to any of these leaders.

Curious to know what was it that made him the Thackrey he is, and will remain forever?

His plain speaking on issues dear to his heart, his fierce love for Maratha Manus and ardent votary of Hinduism, made him more than a patriarch of a regional political outfit and he became a living legend in his life time.

desijat
November 18th, 2012, 10:45 AM
कट्टर राष्ट्रभक्त



मेरे अनुसार आप शायद महाराष्ट्रा भक्त कह रहे थे?

rohittewatia
November 18th, 2012, 11:13 AM
He was safeguarding Interests of his People, which is not wrong either. When you talk about Jat Reservation, It is somewhat on similar terms. And Remember when Shiv Sena dug up the Pitch. It was Shiv Sena & VHP which took a stand that India refuse to resume cricket ties until Pakistan brings to justice the 2008 Terror Masterminds. One big reason why after 93 blasts, Dawood fled to Gulf. He took a stand & stood by it no matter what.
And, did you create this thread to question him/ methods he used or to pay condelences?
RIP - Hindu Hriday Samrat!

desijat
November 18th, 2012, 11:44 AM
And, did you create this thread to question him/ methods he used or to pay condelences?
RIP - Hindu Hriday Samrat!

To compare him with other regional leaders.

Although Hindu Hriday Smrat in my opinion is a way too big word for Thackrey, Maharashtra Hindu Hriday Samrat would be apt

VPannu
November 18th, 2012, 01:15 PM
That's how a friend of mine paid homage (to Thackrey) on facebook :
टाइगर की अदा निराली रही है .....वैलेंटाइन डे का विरोध करते हुए माइकल जैक्सन को घर पे खाना खिलाते हैं ...पाकिस्तानी खिलाडियों को भारत में खेलने नही देते हैं और जावेद मियादाद को खाने पे बुलाते हैं ..... बिहारिओ का मुंबई में विरोध करते हैं और शत्रुघन सिन्हा को घर पे हरी मिर्ची खिलाते हैं ....सलाम ......बस और कुछ नही ...एक था टाइगर ....

desijat
November 18th, 2012, 01:19 PM
Pannu ki post padh ke I also got reminded of a FB Status posted by a journalist friend of mine:

'I have a wry smile as I type this sitting in my office. Today, while endlessly waiting to get to work for nearly an hour, an AIR INDIA ON DUTY cab wallah stopped by at the bus stop after I waved at him. His first question: Saab, Marathi Manoos? , I said: No, I am not. Then he asked where I wanted to go and I told him. He asked me to hop in, and on the way narrated his life story. A man in mid thirties from UP, whose brother was brutally injured a few years ago when SS workers attacked Taxi wallahs in Mumbai. He swore today to not help any Marathi out of that one incident and said he was glad, BT is no more. Is this the India we want to leave beghind where in the time of crisis, we help one another on the basis of religion and region. Shame.'

RavinderSura
November 18th, 2012, 02:08 PM
एक ऐसा शेर जो सिर्फ अपने घर की खिड़की से दहाड़ता था | महाराष्ट्रवाद मे ही अगर राष्ट्रवाद हैं तो फिर हमे भी हरियाणवीवाद पंजाबिवाद जट्ट्वाद करना चाहिए !

vicky84
November 18th, 2012, 03:43 PM
Walk The Talk with Bal Thackeray (Aired on: January 28, 2007)
http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/walk-the-talk/walk-the-talk-with-bal-thackeray-aired-on-january-28-2007/253252?hp

rohittewatia
November 18th, 2012, 06:28 PM
A Leader of Ideology(Rare Thing in Today's Politics) who had the Guts to call a Spade a Spade. Nice One from the Benevolent Dictator & Tiger "I welcome their Fear".

SumitJattan
November 18th, 2012, 08:04 PM
A power less hitler ….while hitler tried to unify the swastika followers of whole world and Bala Saheb approach was limited to just one region . Hitler roared for Aryans while he tried to roar for just Marathis ……. The only diff which i can see between them is sphere of influence in their prime . His politics was based on distraction instead of construction . His whimsical approach in targeting people ( Indians ) from one region was shameful.

gathwal
November 18th, 2012, 10:04 PM
too regional politician.... advocate of marathi n maharashtra RIP

Bisky
November 18th, 2012, 10:11 PM
Pannu ki post padh ke I also got reminded of a FB Status posted by a journalist friend of mine:

'I have a wry smile as I type this sitting in my office. Today, while endlessly waiting to get to work for nearly an hour, an AIR INDIA ON DUTY cab wallah stopped by at the bus stop after I waved at him. His first question: Saab, Marathi Manoos? , I said: No, I am not. Then he asked where I wanted to go and I told him. He asked me to hop in, and on the way narrated his life story. A man in mid thirties from UP, whose brother was brutally injured a few years ago when SS workers attacked Taxi wallahs in Mumbai. He swore today to not help any Marathi out of that one incident and said he was glad, BT is no more. Is this the India we want to leave beghind where in the time of crisis, we help one another on the basis of religion and region. Shame.'


Gentleman!
Conditions are far more dangerous in this country. Why should we 'alone' discuss Nationalism? In match fixing scandal, Azharuddin(Ex. Indian kir-kiretar & captain) was guilty. And our public made him MP.

"कब से हूँ क्या बताऊँ जहान-ए-खराब में
शब हाय हिज्र को भी रखूँ गर हिसाब में"


जहान-ए-खराब - दुखी संसार
शब - रात
हिज्र - जुदाई, Separation

swaich
November 19th, 2012, 10:55 AM
A Leader of Ideology(Rare Thing in Today's Politics) who had the Guts to call a Spade a Spade. Nice One from the Benevolent Dictator & Tiger "I welcome their Fear".

I think the word you meant to write was Malevolent.

SandeepSirohi
November 19th, 2012, 11:08 AM
We love him or hate him, fact is that he is, or was a stalwart who had no matching across India.

Yes, totally agreed . He is person very hard to find in Indian politics. Wish if we could have such a leader in our center government.(Party doesn't matter)

swaich
November 19th, 2012, 11:16 AM
Bal Thakre enjoyed mass support due to his ability to connect with the masses. He used his wit and charm, evident in his political cartoons to make statements that seemed to gel with the Marathi Manoos. He started off with the pro-Marathi slogan which led to his anti-South Indian stance. Later he joined the Hindutva bandwagon to sell old wine in new bottle. This helped him expand his popularity beyond Mumbai and gained him followers across the country, some of whom can be seen paying eulogies to him on this thread.

His party the Shiv Sena is nothing but a collection of strongmen or goondas in local language. When they opposed South Indians vandalizing their businesses and thrashing businessmen, they extracted hafta or funds to keep the organization running. Same was applied on North Indians later. And still continues as MNS workers beat up innocent non-Marathi taxi drivers on the road. Mob-violence is a common and often used tactic of the Sena. South Indians taking your mill jobs? Beat up every South Indian guy you see on the road and smash their Udipi hotels. Too many North Indians in Mumbai? grab any taxi driver or autowallah on Mumbai street. Ask if he's non-Marathi. If answered in the affirmative, give him a sound thrashing and break his car's windows. Not to mention Shiv Sena's role in Bhiwandi, Jalgaon and later Mumbai riots.

Politically the Shiv Sena kept choosing sides to advance its case untill the 90s when it firmly chose the anti-Congress stand.

But the biggest harm Bal Thakre has done is making ethno-centrism a justified philosophy. By saying the first right on Mumbai is of Mumbaikars, he relegated all non-Mumbaikars living and working in Mumbai to second class citizens. A city belongs to the whole country. A non-Mumbaikar pays as much tax to BMC as does a Marathi Manoos and hence has equal right. And Mumbai rose by the power of the immigrants. Pathans, Punjabis, Malayalis, Tamils, Biharis it was the combined efforts of the whole of India that helped it become what it is today. Perhaps it's a credit to the city and its people that immigrants continued to swell and the city flourished in spite of the poison spread by Shiv Sena.

If one cares to analyze, one can see vast similarities between Bal Thakre and Bhindrawala. Both held extreme ethno-centric stances and sought to win the masses by idiomatic phrases and fire-brand speeches. The only differences being that Bhindrawala, the extremist, picked up the gun and Bal Thakre, the politician, used mob violence.

vicky84
November 19th, 2012, 11:33 AM
I could not believe that so many celebrities paid him the homage! Goondaism Celebrity nexus!! Probably these people were either threatened by him or he favoured them in getting the business.

SandeepSirohi
November 19th, 2012, 12:05 PM
I could not believe that so many celebrities paid him the homage! Goondaism Celebrity nexus!! Probably these people were either threatened by him or he favoured them in getting the business.

Newspaper Reported 20 Lacks People. OMG.

http://images.jagran.com/images/18111218NOV2_m.jpg

desijat
November 19th, 2012, 12:33 PM
https://www.facebook.com/palghar.mitra/posts/369778503116673

The comments on the thread will prove that no stupid ideology can born or live without public support

swaich
November 19th, 2012, 04:09 PM
I could not believe that so many celebrities paid him the homage! Goondaism Celebrity nexus!! Probably these people were either threatened by him or he favoured them in getting the business.

Everyone is afraid of the Sena! He ruled Mumbai and that is irrefutable. Some celebrities he engaged himself via his wit and charm and others just fell in line.

But its incredible to see him being accorded a state funeral.

SandeepSirohi
November 19th, 2012, 04:30 PM
एक २१ साल कि लड़की ने अपने फेसबुकपर एक पोस्ट लिखी "People like Thackeray are born and die daily and one should not observe a bandh for that." ओर इसको उसकी एक फ्रेंड ने लाईक किया नतीजा :
मुंबई पुलिस ने दोनों को अर्रेस्ट कर लिया धारा भी देखिये :
Section 295 (a) of the IPC (for hurting religious sentiments)
Section 64 (a) of the Information Technology Act, 2000.

उसके बाद शिव सैनिको ने उसके अंकल के क्लिनिक में जा के धुमा ठा दिया......... अब इसको क्या कहेंगे?

DrRajpalSingh
November 19th, 2012, 05:17 PM
Late B S Thakre became a living legend during his life time and died leaving behind millions to weep over his departure to heavenly abode. When it is admitted that 'he ruled Mumbai and that is irrefutable' then befittingly he deserved 'state funeral'.

swaich
November 19th, 2012, 06:05 PM
Late B S Thakre became a living legend during his life time and died leaving behind millions to weep over his departure to heavenly abode. When it is admitted that 'he ruled Mumbai and that is irrefutable' then befittingly he deserved 'state funeral'.

Perhaps your naivety didnt let you read between the lines or you are one of his admirers. Nothing wrong with either. He did rule. But the question is - by what means and at what cost?

He wasn't elected to any state office. Didnt contest an election. Instead played divisive politics that probably benefited a few but sowed seeds of ethnic divisions across a billion.

DrRajpalSingh
November 19th, 2012, 06:56 PM
Perhaps your naivety didnt let you read between the lines or you are one of his admirers. Nothing wrong with either. He did rule. But the question is - by what means and at what cost?

He wasn't elected to any state office. Didnt contest an election. Instead played divisive politics that probably benefited a few but sowed seeds of ethnic divisions across a billion.

He ruled over the hearts of people as is evidenced by the teeming crowds even when he is no more.

I am neither member of any political party nor supporter of this or that person.

I need not read your hidden meaning/message which, perhaps, reflects your prejudice against a man who is no more there to reply your unfounded allegations.

Kindly discuss my posts not me in future please.

desijat
November 19th, 2012, 08:55 PM
I need not read your hidden meaning/message which, perhaps, reflects your prejudice against a man who is no more there to reply your unfounded allegations.



Sir,

Unfortunately the man never replied to allegations or communal charges pressed against him when he was alive either. True, it is a testimony that lakhs or people followed him but it is also an irony to see him draped in tri-color which represents India, not just Maharashtra for which he fought his entire life. It was more of a joke to drape him in tri-color slapping those who were butchered in Mumbai on his call.

rekhasmriti
November 19th, 2012, 09:27 PM
Precaution is better than cure ------

Mera kam tha batana . Please go thru below mentioned link :

Two girls arrested for anti-Thackeray Facebook post
http://in.news.yahoo.com/two-girls-arrested-for-anti-thackeray-facebook-post.html

swaich
November 19th, 2012, 09:40 PM
He ruled over the hearts of people as is evidenced by the teeming crowds even when he is no more.

I am neither member of any political party nor supporter of this or that person.

I need not read your hidden meaning/message which, perhaps, reflects your prejudice against a man who is no more there to reply your unfounded allegations.

Kindly discuss my posts not me in future please.

Hitler had more followers and rules millions of hearts even today, including that of Bal Thakre and his party. Doesnt mean one is a saint.

You are being selective by suggesting we avoid discussing deceased people. We discuss dead men all the time, especially historical ones. Gandhi, Nehru etc. So no harm in discussing Thakre. Actually even more pertinent to discuss his opinions and philosophy since going by his funeral procession, millions seem to identify with it. It just happens that I find mostly negative in it. And unfounded they are not. True to his convictions and unafraid to share them, he has given numerous interviews and speeches. Feel free to view them and post the positives.

I opined you as an admirer, which you resent. You suggested I am prejudiced, which I accept as I am prejudiced against all who breathe fire and spout hatred by claiming to be true 'sons of the soil'. So we are even.

jaisingh318
November 19th, 2012, 09:53 PM
If one cares to analyze, one can see vast similarities between Bal Thakre and Bhindrawala.
apne logo key liye ladne me kya burai h ?

desijat
November 19th, 2012, 10:03 PM
So you state Bhindrawala, Kashmir issue and Naxalism are justified?


apne logo key liye ladne me kya burai h ?

jaisingh318
November 19th, 2012, 10:18 PM
So you state Bhindrawala, are justified?
100 % .............great jat ...................sawal ka jawab sawal may to na dyu.

desijat
November 19th, 2012, 10:33 PM
Thanks for the compliment but still, you did not answer my question.
100 % .............great jat

swaich
November 19th, 2012, 10:35 PM
apne logo key liye ladne me kya burai h ?

Jai Singh ji, I think the answer lies in one's definition of 'apne log'. Bhindrawala limited the definition to the people of his religion, Thakre limited it to Marathi Manoos. Some other like Anna Hazare include the whole country as their 'apne log'. Definition ke hisab se hi hamein burai aur achai mil jayegi.

swaich
November 19th, 2012, 10:37 PM
100 % .............great jat ...................sawal ka jawab sawal may to na dyu.

Let me ask - so what do you think about Lt. Gen DS Brar? He came from the same Jat clan as Bhindrawala but fought on the opposing side.

desijat
November 19th, 2012, 10:45 PM
to add to it, Lt. Gen DS Brar also fought for 'Apne log', just that his sphere represented the whole country, not just Punjab


Let me ask - so what do you think about Lt. Gen DS Brar? He came from the same Jat clan as Bhindrawala but fought on the opposing side.

jaisingh318
November 19th, 2012, 10:53 PM
Gen brar ek foji kay hissab se apne duty kar rahe theyy.................lakin sant bhinderawala jat key liye batt karte theyy aur bahmanni kay khillaf theyy.

swaich
November 19th, 2012, 10:54 PM
to add to it, Lt. Gen DS Brar also fought for 'Apne log', just that his sphere represented the whole country, not just Punjab

Exactly my intended point, behind the post. :) One fights for those he feels bound by duty. Some think they are to first fight for their ethnicity and some for their country. Trouble occurs when both of these duties contradict each other.

desijat
November 19th, 2012, 11:04 PM
sant bhinderawala

I will be scared to fly across Atlantic every time until this ideology that calls Bhindrawala a saint exists. Unfortunately, am flying across this week itself.

VPannu
November 20th, 2012, 05:07 AM
apne logo key liye ladne me kya burai h ?
hmm, no wonder 20 lakh people attended his funeral. 'apne log' se upar 'apna desh' nahi aata ke ? JKLF, IRA, Babbar Khalsa, NDFB, LTTE sab legitimate tha fer to.

rinkusheoran
November 20th, 2012, 08:12 AM
The evil that men do lives on after them, the good is oft interred with their bones - said Antony, of Caesar.

On bravery or nationalism of Bal saheb, he never came out of Maharashtra and calling him a nationalist is wrong.He was fighting for survival as true for any politician party. I dont know how much true it is but he was asked to talk to bhinderwala but he refused

At the same time I'm curious whom we should blame for Thackerays and Bhinderwala and there deeds?If we go back in time Both Thackeray 's be it Bal and Raj, they have played identity or son of soil politics and flourished under congress rule and i think same was true for Bhinderwala.

Raj has flourished or was allowed to play his politics by congress ruled regime so that congress can benefit after vote split between sena's and Bhinderwala was supported by Madam ( as called by Saint himself) sitting in delhi to split akali vote but he went out of her hold and everything else is history.

I think Society prepare the crime and criminal commits it. They were given stage to perform and they did perform splendidly.

malikdeepak1
November 20th, 2012, 10:04 AM
Bhinderwala is termed as "Saheed" by many Sikhs. Check youtube, you will get loads of videos praising Bhinderwala. And it is no hiding fact who raised him to that stature! Similar lines Raj Thackery is playing Marathi manus politics. Winning 12 seats within a span of 4-5 years of party formation speaks in itself. And more than winning, his party got 2nd or 3rd highest votes in many constituencies which hampered ShivSena a lot and hence Kaan-grease was able to regain power in Maharashatra with Pawar. Thats why no hard action was taken against Raj Thackrey when his partymen were attacking people from other states because he is doing a big favor to Kaan-grease by cutting into vote share of ShivSena! On one hand kaangrease says that we dont do politics of dividing people, on other hand they support such people. This is called Hypocrisy (for those who think anti-congressies are hypocrite)

Another example of hypocrisy of kaan-grease -> A whole lot of muslims are indulged in terrorist activites, but they are termed as 'militants', but when a few hindus are caught they term them as "Saffron terrorists".. And this term was used by one of the most prominent leaders of Kaan-grease in Parliament. This is hypocrisy. (I am not favoring any kind of terrorist activites here, but why brand terrorist activities with religion??)

Now as we see that this region based politics is flourishing, who should be held responsible? One, the person who is doing it or the one who is allowing it to flourish? Definitely the first one is the starter, but the latter by no means can escape from the fact that it is equally responsible too for such non-sense politics.

swaich
November 20th, 2012, 02:34 PM
@ - Rinku and Deepak.

It's true Bal Thakre or Bhindrawala for that matter werent produced in a vaccum. There actions, crimes were as much a product of the system, society or the government as their own motivations and convictions. But that doesnt at all decrease the enormity of their actions or give a licence to deflect responsibility. This is true for Naxals too or every separatist movement everywhere in the world. I feel the responsibility rests more on the individual. The same Mumbai society can produce cops like those who fought bravely in 26/11 and the same Mumbai society produces Bal Thakre.

jaisingh318
November 20th, 2012, 04:28 PM
hmm, no wonder 20 lakh people attended his funeral. 'apne log' se upar 'apna desh' nahi aata ke ? JKLF, IRA, Babbar Khalsa, NDFB, LTTE sab legitimate tha fer to.
apne desh ka constitution hi hume sikhata hai kahin na kahin inke baree mein ki apne log hote hain
1. reservation policy
2.regional policies(370 for J&K and non residents cannot buy land in himachal pradesh and special status for some states)
3.religion policies(hindu marriage act,muslim personal law etc.)
.
Nothing wrong in talking about benefits of once religion, castes and residents of area

ravinderpannu
November 20th, 2012, 08:40 PM
Bhai ,

You visit the Golden temple Museum, he is portrayed as Shaheed..it is not just by many,,it is by almost now...!!
I fail to understand how people can keep anything else above motherland(nation)...!!


Bhinderwala is termed as "Saheed" by many Sikhs. .

jaisingh318
November 20th, 2012, 08:58 PM
I fail to understand how people can keep anything else above motherland(nation)...!!

we remember the famous quote of ch.mahendre singh tikkait when ch.devilal made his son ch.omprakash chautala the new CM
or sare desh me iska virodh tha.
Jo apne kunbey or parivaar(apne log) ki nahi sochta wo desh ki kya khakh sochega

desijat
November 20th, 2012, 09:12 PM
\
Jo apne kunbey or parivaar(apne log) ki nahi sochta wo desh ki kya khakh sochega

A flawed thinking.

Jo apne kunbe ki sochta hai wo desh ki kabhi soch hi nahi sakta

desijat
November 20th, 2012, 10:39 PM
A friend asked me today, "what did Bal Thackrey hated the most, non hindus or north indians"?
And I said "dude its Article 19 of the constitution"

(copied)

rinkusheoran
November 20th, 2012, 10:49 PM
A flawed thinking.

Jo apne kunbe ki sochta hai wo desh ki kabhi soch hi nahi sakta

Does it apply to all including yadavs,chautala,Hooda, Badals, Ch Charan Singh family and most importantly Gandhis????

rinkusheoran
November 20th, 2012, 10:58 PM
@ - Rinku and Deepak.

It's true Bal Thakre or Bhindrawala for that matter werent produced in a vaccum. There actions, crimes were as much a product of the system, society or the government as their own motivations and convictions. But that doesnt at all decrease the enormity of their actions or give a licence to deflect responsibility. This is true for Naxals too or every separatist movement everywhere in the world. I feel the responsibility rests more on the individual. The same Mumbai society can produce cops like those who fought bravely in 26/11 and the same Mumbai society produces Bal Thakre.

Mr Swaich
Let us not involve naxalism in this because again that is due to lack good of governance otherwise why people in Delhi or Haryana( it is better than where we have naxalism) have not taken guns ??? lets leave this for other thread or time

I personally hate the identity politics or politics of appeasement or politics of minority or politics of Aam Admi( ek baar Jayant Chaudhary ne parliament mein pucha tha ki Sab kuch Aam Admi k liye hai iska matlab Koi to KHAS hai, Kon hai vo KHAS aadmi??) No one is decreasing the identity politics that was done by Bhinderwala or Thackrey.You are an intellectual person so Answer me one thing, Who allowed Raj Thackeray to be person he is today, is it him or the system??? If it is only individual why we had only 1 Bhinderwala or thakrey? i can bet that we have lacs of people who want to be like them if it boils down completely to individuals.

Bit off topic,For Khaps i keep hearing the govt calling them unconstitutional and saying no body will be spared but why they become silent when one person( Raj Thakrey in this case) or his follower are allowed to go free hand and do vandalism in one of the biggest cosmopolitan city in india?

desijat
November 20th, 2012, 11:00 PM
It applies to all but like i have been saying, if they pass the test of democracy it implies people accept them.

Case in point in Ajit Singh who was given a wast empire by his father but today is limited to a few seats in VS and a couple of seats in LS for various reasons.



Does it apply to all including yadavs,chautala,Hooda, Badals, Ch Charan Singh family and most importantly Gandhis????

rinkusheoran
November 20th, 2012, 11:04 PM
It applies to all but like i have been saying, if they pass the test of democracy it implies people accept them.

So when Chautla was made CM after People verdict and you called it flawed thinking for Ch Tikait when he gave his opinion .He was entitled to his opinion and he was a very well respected leader. isn't it derogatory to call the thinking Of such person as flawed when he just gave his opinion on that? I think in your terms should i call it as hypocrisy ??

DrRajpalSingh
November 20th, 2012, 11:06 PM
Mr. Sheoran,

You are right, they were the product of system which facilitates men to emerge as sole votaries of certain ideology or political idiom and enjoy the support of system. Therefore So long as Hero worshiping is there, none can blame but the system for emergence of 'heroes'.

thanks

desijat
November 20th, 2012, 11:19 PM
So when Chautla was made CM after People verdict and you called it flawed thinking for Ch Tikait when he gave his opinion .He was entitled to his opinion and he was a very well respected leader. isn't it derogatory to call the thinking Of such person as flawed when he just gave his opinion on that? I think in your terms should i call it as hypocrisy ??

I was responding to the ideology presented by Jai and did not take any names and I stick to what I said, it is a flawed ideology.

Also, you responded in a hurry, read my post again with edits and example.

But you seem to agree, right? In several posts I have seen you criticizing much greater leaders than Tikait(I dont count him as a great leader) or Choutalas on the account of the same theory that you are supporting right now. Whose being a hypocrite here?

DrRajpalSingh
November 20th, 2012, 11:22 PM
So when Chautla was made CM after People verdict and you called it flawed thinking for Ch Tikait when he gave his opinion .He was entitled to his opinion and he was a very well respected leader. isn't it derogatory to call the thinking Of such person as flawed when he just gave his opinion on that? I think in your terms should i call it as hypocrisy ??

When leaders from rural area especially belonging to peasant class in general and the Jat community in particular start to emerge at national level whether it were Chaudhary Chhotu Ram, Chaudhary Charan Singh, Chaudhary Devi Lal, M S Tikait and so on, they are cut to size by the vested interests by labeling them as only Jat leaders in a bid to marginalize their support base and importance in contemporary polity whereas they all were men of masses and represented 36 birdaries in their life times. This is the real face of 'system'.

rinkusheoran
November 20th, 2012, 11:35 PM
I was responding to the ideology presented by Jai and did not take any names and I stick to what I said, it is a flawed ideology.

Also, you responded in a hurry, read my post again with edits and example.

But you seem to agree, right? In several posts I have seen you criticizing much greater leaders than Tikait(I dont count him as a great leader) or Choutalas on the account of the same theory that you are supporting right now. Whose being a hypocrite here?

you were not responding to Jai but his content in that post and i replied to that but as usually you took the way you wanted.I think this time you didnt give a deep thought to it :)

Waho wali baat jo humare baap ko baap nhi manta hum uske baap ko bhi baap nhi manegey.Tere liye bhai leader mujhe pta nhi ki kon hai n teri leader ki kya paribhasa hai, For me no one is above Rehbar-e-Azam Ch Chhoturam Ohlyan and other like Ch Tikait, ch Charan singh, ch Devilal n ye vo log hain jinhone teri ya teri party ki ideology/ leadership ko kai saal pahle chhod dia tha kyunki inko asliyat jaldi samajh aa gia thi

rinkusheoran
November 20th, 2012, 11:37 PM
When leaders from rural area especially belonging to peasant class in general and the Jat community in particular start to emerge at national level whether it were Chaudhary Chhotu Ram, Chaudhary Charan Singh, Chaudhary Devi Lal, M S Tikait and so on, they are cut to size by the vested interests by labeling them as only Jat leaders in a bid to marginalize their support base and importance in contemporary polity whereas they all were men of masses and represented 36 birdaries in their life times. This is the real face of 'system'.

Completely in Agreement, i have never seen anyone being labeled as brahmin( Nehru/Vajpayee/MM Joshi) or a Baniya( Gandhis) leader, sometimes i wonder whether they ever had any leader or not ???

rinkusheoran
November 20th, 2012, 11:43 PM
Mr. Sheoran,

You are right, they were the product of system which facilitates men to emerge as sole votaries of certain ideology or political idiom and enjoy the support of system. Therefore So long as Hero worshiping is there, none can blame but the system for emergence of 'heroes'.

thanks

Again completely agree with you Dr Sahab,I dont understand why some people are not able to recognize/understand this basic thing.It is very much obvious and anyone in there senses can see that. Thakrey or Bhinderwala were not the first and it is not end of son of soil ideology politics as well

rinkusheoran
November 20th, 2012, 11:56 PM
Worth Reading and it was shared with me by a fellow JLander

http://thincquisitive.com/2012/11/20/why-two-million-chanted-balasaheb-amar-rahein/

and best line “When the system fails, a power will rise”.

annch
November 21st, 2012, 12:07 AM
Or vice versa-
"When a power will fail, a system will arise"?

and best line “When the system fails, a power will rise”.

desijat
November 21st, 2012, 12:44 AM
I am not sure why do you pretend to know me better than myself? Let me be the judge of myself, truce?

Also, I think you will help both, the discussion and JL by responding to the topic instead of questioning my definitions and my belief because you hardly know me or my belief. Your last few posts have been away from the topic and more focused on me, while I enjoy getting so much attention but I doubt others do so. If you wish to discuss my ideology on personal level then you are more than welcome to write to me personally, you already have my e mail ID.

Cheers


you were not responding to Jai but his content in that post and i replied to that but as usually you took the way you wanted.I think this time you didnt give a deep thought to it :)

Waho wali baat jo humare baap ko baap nhi manta hum uske baap ko bhi baap nhi manegey.Tere liye bhai leader mujhe pta nhi ki kon hai n teri leader ki kya paribhasa hai, For me no one is above Rehbar-e-Azam Ch Chhoturam Ohlyan and other like Ch Tikait, ch Charan singh, ch Devilal n ye vo log hain jinhone teri ya teri party ki ideology/ leadership ko kai saal pahle chhod dia tha kyunki inko asliyat jaldi samajh aa gia thi

rinkusheoran
November 21st, 2012, 01:13 AM
Or vice versa-
"When a power will fail, a system will arise"?

I believe the way it is written not vice versa.Could you Please elaborate what do you understand by system and power here and context of this thread so that i can share my views on that.

rinkusheoran
November 21st, 2012, 01:35 AM
I am not sure why do you pretend to know me better than myself? Let me be the judge of myself, truce?

Also, I think you will help both, the discussion and JL by responding to the topic instead of questioning my definitions and my belief because you hardly know me or my belief. Your last few posts have been away from the topic and more focused on me, while I enjoy getting so much attention but I doubt others do so. If you wish to discuss my ideology on personal level then you are more than welcome to write to me personally, you already have my e mail ID.
Cheers

Only thing that i see here is 'I disagree to agree with your thoughts'.I dont have any fights with you or your ideology.If you insist that and if that is way you are looking at it, i'm ready to have permanent peace rather than truce.

I'm not claiming to know you at all and again that is your perception.I have been saying this and i'm reiterating ,you take things only the way you want them rather than taking them the way they are written or said. It could be because of one's own level of understanding things so my apologies on that if you felt bad

One can easily identify person's ideology/thinking with his writing, it is not rocket science.When you said i have criticized greater leaders( leader as per you) that was your thinking on leaders or what you believe leaders are.Insan k murshid(Leader) se uski gati(progess) ka pta chalta hai so i think that itself tell something about person. I and i think whole JL as well know that you enjoy getting/taking attention and that is obvious with your write ups and i know your loving it so good luck on that.

N thanks for allowing me to write to you personally on email and i even have your contact number as well. if needed i ll contact you either way.

Coming back on the thread, who do you think responsible for thakreys and Bhinderwala? they themselves or is it the system?

vvk1987
November 21st, 2012, 04:01 AM
ल्यो भाई यो भी पढ़ ल्यो ठाकरे की शान मैं

Thackeray and His Legacy
The call of Sunday bandh given by Shiv Sainiks in Mumbai after Bal Thackeray’s death was questioned by a girl in her fb post and another girl liked it. Both were arrested for “promoting enmity between classes” by Mumbai police. The bandh is a mark of protest for grievance redressal. What was Shiv Sainik’s grievance over Thackeray’s death? None contributed to it. Thackeray died a natural death at a ripe old age of 86. Every one has to meet one’s end at some stage.
The blind glorification of Thackeray by all and sundry, gun salute and all that, is amazing. Thackeray had acerbic tongue and acidic pen and used them skillfully to arouse primordial passion of regional identity of “Marathi Manush” blaming minorities, migrants-poor Biharis and UP bhaias etc- for all the ills of Maharashra citizens , forgetting that it is the labouring people of Maharashtra and other states on whose back the corrupt politicians and bureaucrats fill their coffers and corporate houses build their empires. In the process he smashed trade unions and other social organizations fighting for the just causes .
Thackeray’s funeral attracted mammoth crowd. Hitler attracted much larger crowds(Thackeray was a great admirer of Hitler). Does it mean hat Hitler was right? The question of right and wrong, just and unjust, virtue and vice, good and evil cannot be answered by majority-minority equation. If whole of the mankind were arrayed against one Socrates, one Christ, one Buddha and one Gandhi; one Rousseau, one Marx, one Bhagat Singh and one Che Guevera; or one Galileo, one Darwin, one Newton or one Einstein, the multitude would be in the wrong.
Thackeray’s legacy is divisive, destructive and inimical to the national interest and his theory of the sons of the soil pernicious. If mankind has to survive meaningfully in the present nuclear world dominated by the corporate greed and naked exploitation of man by man, all the barriers of caste, community, race, ethnicity, territory etc. must be dismantled by stressing the basic and primary identity of homo sapiens- the mankind tied by the bond of universal brotherhood.
As correctly stated by a Mumbai girl in her fb post,:”Mumai shut down due to fear, not respect.” It is the known bullying tactics and strong arm methods of Shiv Sainkiks which evoked all the tributes for the departed soul of Thackeray. Let his soul rest in peace and sanity prevail on his frenzied followers.
Press Council of India Chairman, Justice Markandey Katju’ s stance of not paying tribute to Thacheray is laudable. He has rightly slammed the Maharashtra Chief Minister Prithviraj Chauhan for the arrest tow girls. I cast my humble vote in favour of Justice Katju and the two brave girls of Mumbai. I salute them
The great Italian thinker Gramsci has rightly stated that fascism is the excrement of a dysfunctional polity; its consequence and not its cause. The atrocious act of mugging even the social media by arresting some one by expressing one’s opinion while our Constitution guarantees freedom of expression is symptomatic of the growing cancer of fascism. This is the gravest threat to the Indian democracy today.

annch
November 21st, 2012, 04:56 AM
It is exactly the same context and understanding of "power" and "system" as your post that I quoted. But then system driven governance and development is a utopian thought.

I believe the way it is written not vice versa.Could you Please elaborate what do you understand by system and power here and context of this thread so that i can share my views on that.

VPannu
November 21st, 2012, 05:06 AM
Or vice versa-
"When a power will fail, a system will arise"?
How so? Failure in democracies (i.e. a system) has given birth to many powers. Gaddaffi in Libya, Mubarak in Egypt, Musharraf in Pak, Frank Bainimarama in Fiji are to name a few. Be it Veerappan or Dawood, they all are products of a failed system.

annch
November 21st, 2012, 05:26 AM
When power (i.e.Thackrey, Gandhi, etc, etc) erodes a system (i.e. democracy/governance), isn't it a check on how robust a system is? If power persists, system breaks down further, and if power diminishes, the system is improved and strengthened.


How so? Failure in democracies (i.e. a system) has given birth to many powers. Gaddaffi in Libya, Mubarak in Egypt, Musharraf in Pak, Frank Bainimarama in Fiji are to name a few. Be it Veerappan or Dawood, they all are products of a failed system.

annch
November 21st, 2012, 05:32 AM
Correct me if I am wrong. Isn't RTI part of a system (i.e.democracy) and not power?

How so? Failure in democracies (i.e. a system) has given birth to many powers. Gaddaffi in Libya, Mubarak in Egypt, Musharraf in Pak, Frank Bainimarama in Fiji are to name a few. Be it Veerappan or Dawood, they all are products of a failed system.

VPannu
November 21st, 2012, 05:37 AM
Correct me if I am wrong. Isn't RTI part of a system (i.e.democracy) and not power?Although off-topic to comment but my understanding is : It is indeed part of the system and a power vested in common man. Any Tom, Dick and Harry can use it but one must not abuse it.

rinkusheoran
November 21st, 2012, 05:50 AM
When power (i.e.Thackrey, Gandhi, etc, etc) erodes a system (i.e. democracy/governance), isn't it a check on how robust a system is? If a system is improved and strengthened, power would vane. When you flip this- if a system breaks down, power would get stronger.

What you are saying is correct but other way round.Thackrey/Gandhi/Bhinderwala were not made in a day and they were not power from day1. if they were force to reckon with it was due to the failed/flawed system( system include our constitution, people runnig the regime) not other way round


Vo dialog yaad hai sarkar 1 ka , jab abhishek katrina se kehta hai log mere papa se maddat mangane aate hai jab unhe sarkar se maddat nhi milti
Katrina says- iska matlab tumhare papa ek parallel govt hain
Abhishek- agar tumhe yahi lagta hai to yahi sahi


For example, Raj thakrey in today's system is making use of failed system. When he asking all the shopkeeper to write names of shops in Marathi( yes this is law in maharastra under some shop act) or asking people to register themselves with state police( again that is as per law in interstate migration act). he is not doing anything wrong. he is just using the current laws which govt should have implemented. Why govt needs someone like raj Thakrey to tell that to people?

annch
November 21st, 2012, 05:59 AM
It is not a common man who influences/misuses a system. It is a man with "power" who can do so. Kejriwal and all are strengthening a system, and in your own words, Raj Thackrey is using the failed system.

What you are saying is correct but other way round.Thackrey/Gandhi/Bhinderwala were not made in a day and they were not power from day1. if they were force to reckon with it was due to the failed/flawed system( system include our constitution, people runnig the regime) not other way round


Vo dialog yaad hai sarkar 1 ka , jab abhishek katrina se kehta hai log mere papa se maddat mangane aate hai jab unhe sarkar se maddat nhi milti
Katrina says- iska matlab tumhare papa ek parallel govt hain
Abhishek- agar tumhe yahi lagta hai to yahi sahi


For example, Raj thakrey in today's system is making use of failed system. When he asking all the shopkeeper to write names of shops in Marathi( yes this is law in maharastra under some shop act) or asking people to register themselves with state police( again that is as per law in interstate migration act). he is not doing anything wrong. he is just using the current laws which govt should have implemented. Why govt needs someone like raj Thakrey to tell that to people?

swaich
November 21st, 2012, 09:28 AM
Mr Swaich
Let us not involve naxalism in this because again that is due to lack good of governance otherwise why people in Delhi or Haryana( it is better than where we have naxalism) have not taken guns ??? lets leave this for other thread or time

I personally hate the identity politics or politics of appeasement or politics of minority or politics of Aam Admi( ek baar Jayant Chaudhary ne parliament mein pucha tha ki Sab kuch Aam Admi k liye hai iska matlab Koi to KHAS hai, Kon hai vo KHAS aadmi??) No one is decreasing the identity politics that was done by Bhinderwala or Thackrey.You are an intellectual person so Answer me one thing, Who allowed Raj Thackeray to be person he is today, is it him or the system??? If it is only individual why we had only 1 Bhinderwala or thakrey? i can bet that we have lacs of people who want to be like them if it boils down completely to individuals.

Bit off topic,For Khaps i keep hearing the govt calling them unconstitutional and saying no body will be spared but why they become silent when one person( Raj Thakrey in this case) or his follower are allowed to go free hand and do vandalism in one of the biggest cosmopolitan city in india?

Rinku bhai, you probably didnt get the gist of my previous post. Let me repeat, its undeniable that system, environment, society have a role in producing a Bal Thakre or a Bhindrawala. But, if not more, these people are as much a product of a system as their own convictions. If only the system were to be blamed we would have had a hundred Thakres. But it was his own beliefs along with a fertile ground for his actions that led to his rise. And personally, I believe its more the person and less the system that leads to extremists like Thakre and Bhindrawala.

And Naxalis is an apt mention here. You cant compare lack of governance in Delhi with Dantewada. The latter practically has no governance! Anyways, thats off topic.

And on Raj Thakre, I agree the Congress govt. probably had a motive in not reigning him in as it weakened the Shiv Sena.

swaich
November 21st, 2012, 09:36 AM
Mr. Sheoran,

You are right, they were the product of system which facilitates men to emerge as sole votaries of certain ideology or political idiom and enjoy the support of system. Therefore So long as Hero worshiping is there, none can blame but the system for emergence of 'heroes'.

thanks

Rajpal ji, hero worship has always been a part of civilizations. Nothing new.But when someone with a divisive ideology like a Thakre and Bhindrawala comes along, we cant blame the system alone. The people who worshipped them along with the heroes have to take a majority of the blame. Blaming the system alone feels like we are absolving the extremists of any responsibilities of their actions. So tomorrow if some Delhiite, fed up with corruption, shoots down Sheila Dikshit, we cant simply say - "Lets not punish him because he was a product of a corrupt system." One cant escape responsibility for their own actions by simply blaming the system.

swaich
November 21st, 2012, 09:42 AM
What you are saying is correct but other way round.Thackrey/Gandhi/Bhinderwala were not made in a day and they were not power from day1. if they were force to reckon with it was due to the failed/flawed system( system include our constitution, people runnig the regime) not other way round


Vo dialog yaad hai sarkar 1 ka , jab abhishek katrina se kehta hai log mere papa se maddat mangane aate hai jab unhe sarkar se maddat nhi milti
Katrina says- iska matlab tumhare papa ek parallel govt hain
Abhishek- agar tumhe yahi lagta hai to yahi sahi


For example, Raj thakrey in today's system is making use of failed system. When he asking all the shopkeeper to write names of shops in Marathi( yes this is law in maharastra under some shop act) or asking people to register themselves with state police( again that is as per law in interstate migration act). he is not doing anything wrong. he is just using the current laws which govt should have implemented. Why govt needs someone like raj Thakrey to tell that to people?

Rinku Ji, Raj Thakre had no right to enforce the law, if there was one. Nor did he certainly just 'ask' people to register themselves, if there is such a law (which I doubt). I think we are losing sight of the violence unleashed by MNS to enforce their own views.

DrRajpalSingh
November 21st, 2012, 11:10 AM
Friend,

No doubt Hero worship is an ancient tradition but Hero worship and 'hero' making are two different things. When someone is raised as 'hero' to meet the partisan ends, the end always is disastrous for which the 'system' that creates such 'heroes' is held equally at fault alongwith the 'hero'. Quoting of futuristic example should be desisted please.
I close my participation in this discussion with posting of this bit of information that awakening of national feelings, humanism and adherence to moral ethos of multiculturism are the panacea to several ills dogging our national life today.

Thanks

rinkusheoran
November 21st, 2012, 07:59 PM
Rinku bhai, you probably didnt get the gist of my previous post. Let me repeat, its undeniable that system, environment, society have a role in producing a Bal Thakre or a Bhindrawala. But, if not more, these people are as much a product of a system as their own convictions. If only the system were to be blamed we would have had a hundred Thakres. But it was his own beliefs along with a fertile ground for his actions that led to his rise. And personally, I believe its more the person and less the system that leads to extremists like Thakre and Bhindrawala.

And Naxalis is an apt mention here. You cant compare lack of governance in Delhi with Dantewada. The latter practically has no governance! Anyways, thats off topic.

And on Raj Thakre, I agree the Congress govt. probably had a motive in not reigning him in as it weakened the Shiv Sena.


Rinku Ji, Raj Thakre had no right to enforce the law, if there was one. Nor did he certainly just 'ask' people to register themselves, if there is such a law (which I doubt). I think we are losing sight of the violence unleashed by MNS to enforce their own views.

First of all, please address me just Rinku and it will be highly appreciated. thanks in advance for this

Swaich, i and everyone knows that he has no right to enforce law but he is doing it with aplomb and same was done by his uncle but if you or i will do the same thing we will be behind bars but why not him??Yes,If system was total failure we will hundreds or thousands of Thackerays and bhinderwalas but Why we dont have it??It is the system/regime who allows only 1-2 to benefit themselves.I know that it is individual who is responsible but who should be held accountable for that? Is It individual or system, i personally believe system should be held more accountable for this.

There is law for inter state migration and to remove your doubts you can visit THE INTER-STATE MIGRANT WORKMEN (REGULATION OF EMPLOYMENT AND CONDITIONS OF SERVICE) ACT, 1979. this is link http://hrylabour.gov.in/docs/labourActpdfdocs/Inter_State_Migrant_Act.pdf

rinkusheoran
November 21st, 2012, 08:10 PM
It is not a common man who influences/misuses a system. It is a man with "power" who can do so. Kejriwal and all are strengthening a system, and in your own words, Raj Thackrey is using the failed system.

Annji:-As far as i know and please correct me if i'm wrong, be it Thackreys or Bhinderwala never had any Judicial, Executive or Legislative powers that exist in India but if they still have it we need to appreciate them for there ability. they were above all these three even without being part of it as per you.Kejriwal once held executive power but not anymore.May sound bit off topic but Kejriwal is not able or not allowed to play with the system the way Raj is playing( Regime/system benefit from his vandalism in voting) because Kejriwal is not being allowed when he is naming someone from Congress(Vadra-given clean chit in 3 days) but look at what he has done to Gadkari in the same system.

Raj thakrey was born in 1968 which makes him 44years old. I doubt whether people knew(outside Maharashtra) him 10 years ago??He has used a failed/flawed system to get powers that you are talking so i still believe when "system fails, power arises" not other way round.

jaisingh318
November 21st, 2012, 09:56 PM
Rajpal ji, hero worship has always been a part of civilizations. Nothing new.But when someone with a divisive ideology like a Thakre and Bhindrawala comes along, we cant blame the system alone. The people who worshipped them along with the heroes have to take a majority of the blame. Blaming the system alone feels like we are absolving the extremists of any responsibilities of their actions. So tomorrow if some Delhiite, fed up with corruption, shoots down Sheila Dikshit, we cant simply say - "Lets not punish him because he was a product of a corrupt system." One cant escape responsibility for their own actions by simply blaming the system.
power factor..............jab ek nehru ,advani,sushma,sibbal,gujral,..................... ..nakli rajniti or nakli seystem jahan asli haqdarro ko dabaya jata h.