Marriage Anthropology and Psychology in Indian Context

[phoolkumar]

Marriage Anthropology and Psychology in Indian Context





Marriage Type



Within Gotra Marriage



Out of Gotra within caste Marriage



Inter-caste/Inter-religion marriage



Political View

Right - Conservative

Central - Principle

Left - Liberal



Purpose

To keep the woman in maximum emotional and bound controls

Gender equality consideration on respect but limited boundations on choice

Grand public opinion formation by being individual



Approach

Pro-active approach to keep the indirect psychological control on woman empire

Lead modern life by conserving the traditional values.

Society of individuals



Negative

Only girl is to be adopted to avoid the « Same Gotra Clash », never seen a boy adopted to sacrifice his gotra. (Threats of property inheritance rights for a male in a patriarchal society might be reason)
Mother Gotra has no respect/consideration, only father’s prevail.
Most patriarchal
Moderate Divorce Cases
Moderate Honor Killing

No same gotra marriage
Moderate Honor killing
Patriarchal mindset
Bottom divorce cases

Generally seen as no cultural or social affinity, no responsiveness on social fabric maintenance.
Often found socially deprived or limited to circle of certainty.
Highest suicide cases
Highest divorce cases



Frequency

Lowest cases of inter-caste marriages, especially in top to bottom social standard approach

Love marriages are found at village level even but hesitance of going top to bottom on social standards found here too

Highest but often ended with struggling throughout life.



Positive

Love birds within gotra can practice the married life but girl only (as seen till date) has to adopt the gotra of other close relative via adoption.

Concept is based on gender equality, gotras of both male and female are given equal consideration and respect. Respect was even extended to gotras of grand-mothers in ancient times.

No patriarchal more liberal and friendly approach to kids but with in world of cubical thoughts



Threat

Seize the chances for girl opting for out of caste marriage by opening with in gotra option for her.

To avoid medical conspiracies, post-birth ill health impacts

Access to public loudness, no big friend circle.



Castes/groups

Business and Artist

Priest, Agriculture and Skilled Labor

Mixture of exceptions across groups



Claim

To protect busienss and property (Business).
Complexion of being the most opened and advanced (artist).

The flag bearers and preserves of religion (priests).
Customs and values should be respected (Agriculture and Skilled Labor).

Every individual should live by choice but in practical and at the stage of maturity no such relieving ever seen.



Blame

Biggest spoiler of the community as a whole.

Dictats of medieval thoughts.

Biggest threat to social fabric



Combination

घुन्नयाँ नैं खो दिये गाम

उत्तां के नाम बदनाम

बाकी सारा कोहराम

[rekhasmriti]

As per my friend circle -----their shared experience does not match with things shared under column -
Inter-caste/Inter-religion marriage

[phoolkumar]

Rekha Ji, could you please elaborate your saying....is it as a whole not matching or its fractions?


As per my friend circle -----their shared experience does not match with things shared under column -
Inter-caste/Inter-religion marriage

[phoolkumar]

Claim
To protect busienss and property (Business).
Complexion of being the most opened and advanced (artist).
The flag bearers and preserves of religion (priests).
Customs and values should be respected (Agriculture and Skilled Labor).
Every individual should live by choice but in practical and at the stage of maturity no such relieving ever seen.


Blame
Biggest spoiler of the community as a whole.
Dictats of medieval thoughts.
Biggest threat to social fabric


Combination
घुन्नयाँ नैं खो दिये गाम
उत्तां के नाम बदनाम
बाकी सारा कोहराम

[rekhasmriti]

Generally seen as no cultural or social affinity, no responsiveness on social fabric maintenance.
Often found socially deprived or limited to circle of certainty.
Highest suicide cases
Highest divorce cases


- Mix of culture , both respect each other religion- customs , children get to know about both culture .
- They are more towards getting social , as there is pressure on them of intercaste marriage.
- They rather have big social circle of both families with different culture .
- Rate of Suicide and Divorce cases has got nothing to do with intercaste marriages . These tragedies have got so many factors responsible .


Access to public loudness, no big friend circle.
- As I said they have big circle , in agreement people are curious about how it all happened .


Biggest threat to social fabric
- Rather this would help in eliminating all casteism things , more equality - no discrimation.


Every individual should live by choice
- Nothing wrong with this , jab tak mei khud khush nahi hoon mei kissi ko khush nahi rakh sakti .

PS : In my friend circle many have opted intercaste / inter religion marriages . This all based on my usual talks with them .

[bsbana]

They are more towards getting social , as there is pressure on them of intercaste marriage.

What type of pressure ?


Rather this would help in eliminating all casteism things , more equality - no discrimation.

Descendants of Hindu girl and Muslim boy will end up as Muslim, and descendant of Muslim girl and Hindu boy may be incorporated in upper class liberal strata(looked down by average Hindu) or they will make a new class of their own.

[rekhasmriti]

What type of pressure ?

" Social acceptability of some conservative friends or relatives , avoiding social gossip "

"Descendants of Hindu girl and Muslim boy will end up as Muslim"
I have stated earlier this is on the basis of my discussions with them , my friend is brahmin gal n married to muslim guy - they have a son who does all pooja and namaz
both .Not denying she at times does face issues from her conservative relatives but there is no pressure on Sameer or her to do or not to do somethings . Yes Sameer would carry Sheikh as his sir name but he being muslim or hindu can not say .

[bsbana]

What type of pressure ?

" Social acceptability of some conservative friends or relatives , avoiding social gossip "

"Descendants of Hindu girl and Muslim boy will end up as Muslim"
I have stated earlier this is on the basis of my discussions with them , my friend is brahmin gal n married to muslim guy - they have a son who does all pooja and namaz
both .Not denying she at times does face issues from her conservative relatives but there is no pressure on Sameer or her to do or not to do somethings . Yes Sameer would carry Sheikh as his sir name but he being muslim or hindu can not say .


Idol worshiping and polytheism both are considered Haram in Islam, yes Hindus can go to Church and mosque but Abrahmic religion have clear guideline for their followers. At most he can also become part of upper strata liberal society.

[rekhasmriti]

At most he can also become part of upper strata liberal society.

Its too early to comment on same .

[bsbana]

At most he can also become part of upper strata liberal society.

Its too early to comment on same .
1. Hindus are liberal in going church or even mosque but not liberal in marriage.
2. Muslims are puritan in beliefs, it doesn't matter to them if mother of girl/boy is Hindu. Remember Mughals married lot of Hindu girls, in fact it's considered good as it increases their number. They also accept converts.

[phoolkumar]

Ok for one moment, I would like to go by your lines and then will come to any kind of negative aspect looking on these facter but before that i wanted if to fill this column of this table then what it would have to be in your point of view? Be neutral and fair enough...and as bold you are on positives should be expected on its negatives too while asserting both type of your views.

And it will rather help us to understand it from your point of view too and I promise to change this table as per your debate and points....I am asking for it because as of now, I see just another version of what I have written about same and nothing like convincing me.

Moreover you just have picked up the negatives according to you, isn't there anything positive about this category of my analsysis..you should encourage me for that if any? I have tried to be quite neutral on all three categories....I didn't assert any positive or negative of any but a try to make an analogy...



Generally seen as no cultural or social affinity, no responsiveness on social fabric maintenance.
Often found socially deprived or limited to circle of certainty.
Highest suicide cases
Highest divorce cases


- Mix of culture , both respect each other religion- customs , children get to know about both culture .
- They are more towards getting social , as there is pressure on them of intercaste marriage.
- They rather have big social circle of both families with different culture .
- Rate of Suicide and Divorce cases has got nothing to do with intercaste marriages . These tragedies have got so many factors responsible .


Access to public loudness, no big friend circle.
- As I said they have big circle , in agreement people are curious about how it all happened .


Biggest threat to social fabric
- Rather this would help in eliminating all casteism things , more equality - no discrimation.


Every individual should live by choice
- Nothing wrong with this , jab tak mei khud khush nahi hoon mei kissi ko khush nahi rakh sakti .

PS : In my friend circle many have opted intercaste / inter religion marriages . This all based on my usual talks with them .

[rekhasmriti]

"I promise to change this table as per your debate and points"

hey ram ji ! who m i to tell u dear to change something or not come on u don't owe any promises atleast not to me . All I have shared things as per my experience as I have many friends who opted inter caste / inter religion marriage

"nothing like convincing me."
Trust me dear I was not trying to convince you , all I was doing sharing my views .

"Moreover you just have picked up the negatives according to you,"
In agreement ----I notice negatives first , can't help it --this is the way I am .

"you should encourage me for that if any?"
:) , I always wonder why does everybody wants to hear yes or I agree. Dear , if u know u r right " U R Right" bat khatam . Rest of the world who does not agree r*** in hell .

=============Now about topic ===============
Be it any kind of marriage they all have positive / negative points . The thing which bothered me most you have directly made intercaste / inter religion marriages responsible for suicides and divorces . As per my social circle there was not a single such case in intercaste / inter religion marriages . However same were happened within same caste arranged marriages .

[rekhasmriti]

U may be right , however don't u think time has changed drastically from mughal period till now . I know many muslims who do not read namaz ----do not go to mosque--
n do all things which muslims are prohibited to do so .


1. Hindus are liberal in going church or even mosque but not liberal in marriage.
2. Muslims are puritan in beliefs, it doesn't matter to them if mother of girl/boy is Hindu. Remember Mughals married lot of Hindu girls, in fact it's considered good as it increases their number. They also accept converts.

[bsbana]

U may be right , however don't u think time has changed drastically from mughal period till now . I know many muslims who do not read namaz ----do not go to mosque--
n do all things which muslims are prohibited to do so .
These types of Muslims were always there, even in past. For example, Akbar who tried to escape from authoritarianism of Islam and developed his own religion din-e-elahi. but his great-grandson Aurangzeb was fanatic of highest order, despite having a Hindu grand-mother. What I mean is that inter-religious marriages do not necessarily encourage strengthening of social fabric. Human mind itself is so fragile. Jinnah was that type of Muslim who did things prohibited in Islam, same is true about Imran Khan(cricketer politician of Pak).

[phoolkumar]

Smriti Ji,

Bheem Sen Bana ji ne aapke response ka ek dam steek response de diya hai "Aurangjeb" ka example de ke.....baaki mere 3 category ke points maine kis base pe likhe they uspe ek separate post likhunga jaldi hi......



"I promise to change this table as per your debate and points"

hey ram ji ! who m i to tell u dear to change something or not come on u don't owe any promises atleast not to me . All I have shared things as per my experience as I have many friends who opted inter caste / inter religion marriage

"nothing like convincing me."
Trust me dear I was not trying to convince you , all I was doing sharing my views .

"Moreover you just have picked up the negatives according to you,"
In agreement ----I notice negatives first , can't help it --this is the way I am .

"you should encourage me for that if any?"
:) , I always wonder why does everybody wants to hear yes or I agree. Dear , if u know u r right " U R Right" bat khatam . Rest of the world who does not agree r*** in hell .

=============Now about topic ===============
Be it any kind of marriage they all have positive / negative points . The thing which bothered me most you have directly made intercaste / inter religion marriages responsible for suicides and divorces . As per my social circle there was not a single such case in intercaste / inter religion marriages . However same were happened within same caste arranged marriages .

[ravinderjeet]

भौता बढ़िया विवेचना कर रखी स भाई | बाकी गलती ते स्वय्म्भु क्याये में भी काढ़ह सके से |

[htomar]

kuchh observation share karna chahunga(related to our previos jaat generation)

is generation ke log independence ke baad paida hue,jis time par wo jawan hue us time jaato ne bhi jameen ko kam importance dena start kar diya tha.aur job ki taraf jaane lage.opportunity thi so kaafi logo ko job mili.jinme se kuchh tabhi aur baaki after 10-20 year baad city mai shift ho gaye.unke bachcho ko achi education mili.so ab baat aayi unke bachcho ki shadi ki.unki approach kuchh is tarah hoti hai...

1- apni caste mai rista dekhte hai.lekin hona chahiye apne ya usse uche status ka.idead match.search karte rahte hai.mila to theek nahi to..
2- 2-4 saal search karke thodi expectation kam kar lete hai.but still in same caste..
3- again 3-4 saal baad.inter caste,not inter-religion searching start.expectation/demand again high.
4- 1-2 year baad. inter religion bhi.but demand high.

ab mein aise logo se poochhna chahunga,poochhta bhi hoo ki job karke gaon se nikalkar what they earned??? 2-3 flat/kothi in city and 2-3 child jo AC ke bina rah nahi sakte aur jinke liye 1 rista nahi milta unhe itni badi jaat comiunity mai.unme se jyadatar ka kahna hai ki ye caste system bakwas hai.
mujhe lagta hai ki caste system se wahi baate khatam ho rahi he jo achchhi hai.burayiya wahi ki wahi hai.achchayiyo ko nikalkar unki jagah kuchh burayiya thoosi jaa rahi hai jo 1 system taiyar kar rahi hai jo caste system se badtar hai.aur din par din badtar hota jaa raha hai.result dikh rahe hai.kisi bhi matrimonial site par dekho divorcee jyada milenge.wo bhi 20-30 age group ke.taras bhi aata hai.ye 1 aisa system banta jaa raha hai jisme forget the diff of city and village.now 1 south delhi family,outer west delhi mai shadi se mna kar deti hai hai.

kaha jaata hai ki education society ko aage le jaati hai.but is type ki eductaion,job to community se hi bahar jaa rahi hai.
is way se caste system to khatam ho jayega but ye naya system jyada tukde bna raha hai.

[phoolkumar]

Very appropriate canvasing of ground level truth Tomar Ji...aap bilkul sahi kah rahe hain.....



kuchh observation share karna chahunga(related to our previos jaat generation)

is generation ke log independence ke baad paida hue,jis time par wo jawan hue us time jaato ne bhi jameen ko kam importance dena start kar diya tha.aur job ki taraf jaane lage.opportunity thi so kaafi logo ko job mili.jinme se kuchh tabhi aur baaki after 10-20 year baad city mai shift ho gaye.unke bachcho ko achi education mili.so ab baat aayi unke bachcho ki shadi ki.unki approach kuchh is tarah hoti hai...

1- apni caste mai rista dekhte hai.lekin hona chahiye apne ya usse uche status ka.idead match.search karte rahte hai.mila to theek nahi to..
2- 2-4 saal search karke thodi expectation kam kar lete hai.but still in same caste..
3- again 3-4 saal baad.inter caste,not inter-religion searching start.expectation/demand again high.
4- 1-2 year baad. inter religion bhi.but demand high.

ab mein aise logo se poochhna chahunga,poochhta bhi hoo ki job karke gaon se nikalkar what they earned??? 2-3 flat/kothi in city and 2-3 child jo AC ke bina rah nahi sakte aur jinke liye 1 rista nahi milta unhe itni badi jaat comiunity mai.unme se jyadatar ka kahna hai ki ye caste system bakwas hai.
mujhe lagta hai ki caste system se wahi baate khatam ho rahi he jo achchhi hai.burayiya wahi ki wahi hai.achchayiyo ko nikalkar unki jagah kuchh burayiya thoosi jaa rahi hai jo 1 system taiyar kar rahi hai jo caste system se badtar hai.aur din par din badtar hota jaa raha hai.result dikh rahe hai.kisi bhi matrimonial site par dekho divorcee jyada milenge.wo bhi 20-30 age group ke.taras bhi aata hai.ye 1 aisa system banta jaa raha hai jisme forget the diff of city and village.now 1 south delhi family,outer west delhi mai shadi se mna kar deti hai hai.

kaha jaata hai ki education society ko aage le jaati hai.but is type ki eductaion,job to community se hi bahar jaa rahi hai.
is way se caste system to khatam ho jayega but ye naya system jyada tukde bna raha hai.

[rekhasmriti]

"inter-religious marriages do not necessarily encourage strengthening of social fabric"

In agreement NOT Necessarily--how ever MAY BE . And again we are not living in Akbar -Aurangzeb times . So many things have changed .
Ideology towards religion is changed .

[bsbana]

"inter-religious marriages do not necessarily encourage strengthening of social fabric"

In agreement NOT Necessarily--how ever MAY BE . And again we are not living in Akbar -Aurangzeb times . So many things have changed .
Ideology towards religion is changed .
No one knows about 'May be". It may increase hostility too.
Second, I have given example of Jinnah and Imran Khan who are not from era of Akbar-Aurangzeb. Third, people who go for inter-religious marriage, don't do it for strengthening social fabric. Your last statement doesn't make any sense, neither there was one ideology toward religion in past, nor there is one ideology now. It varies from person to person, group to group and region to region. I already said that in westernized upper liberal strata it may not matter, their religion is achievement, individualism and materialism.

[rekhasmriti]

"Ideology towards religion is changed"

What I meant , nowadays people give other things priority first than religion when it comes to relationship be it marriage or any other kind .
Now people are liberal they are okay putting caste - religion aside unlike previous times .

[bsbana]

"Ideology towards religion is changed"

What I meant , nowadays people give other things priority first than religion when it comes to relationship be it marriage or any other kind .
Now people are liberal they are okay putting caste - religion aside unlike previous times .
These people don't make a significant proportion of population and middle class Indians do care about religion, caste and many other things. Your opinion might be based on few of upper strata people in Delhi. There were always such type of marriages in a strata. Even daughter of Jinnah married with a Parsi. Chandra Gupt Maurya married with a greek princess.

[phoolkumar]

inter-religion marriage ka virodh: aap India ki chhodiye, main France ka ek aisa example deta hu jismen ladki Indian hai aur ladk French Divorcee...but ladke ki family fully conservative hai....aur Indian ladki ladke ki maa ko footi aankh nahin suhaati.....aur is na suhaane ke chalte ladki ki maa ko ladke ki ex-gf yaad aa gai jisse ki aajkal ladke ka divorce chal raha hai....wo budhiya sirf is baat ke liye ki Indian ladki se mera beta door rahe wo uski ex aur ex se hui ek beti ka usko vaasta de rahi hai aur ladke-ladki ki jindagi muhaal bana rakhi hai.....wo Indian ladki se itna racist behave karti hai yahaan tak ki na sunne laayak gaaliyan tak us ladki ko de chuki hai .....jab wo ladki uske bete kahin jyada guna kama ke laati hai

Isliye Smriti Ji koi ideology change hui hai religion ke toward.....India ko to chhodo developed countries tak mein change nahin hui

["Ideology towards religion is changed"

What I meant , nowadays people give other things priority first than religion when it comes to relationship be it marriage or any other kind .
Now people are liberal they are okay putting caste - religion aside unlike previous times .]

[rekhasmriti]

"based on few of upper strata people in Delhi."
People I m quoting are middle class , teaching and govt service background .

[phoolkumar]

Bheem Singh Bana Ji, aapke Aurangjeb ke example ko aur pukhta kar raha hu yahaan ek example de ke:

अंतरजातीय और अंतर्धर्म विवाह के कुतर्क:

अंतरजातीय - विवाहों की यह कह के कि "इनसे धर्म और जाति की सीमायें, विवेचनाएँ खत्म हो जाती हैं" वकालत करने वालों से मेरा एक सवाल कि उनके इस भ्रामक तथ्य में इतनी सच्चाई होती तो औरंगजेब को तो हिन्दुओं का कत्लेआम और उनका धर्म परिवर्तन करवाना बिलकुल भी नहीं करना चाहिए था? क्योंकि उसकी दादी एक हिन्दू ही तो थी? याद नहीं हो तो जोधाबाई को याद कीजिये, जो अकबर की रानी ...बनी और फिर औरंगजेब की दादी यानी औरंगजेब की रगों में 2 धर्मों का खून होने के बावजूद भी उसनें हिन्दुओं-सिखों का कत्लेआम से ले धर्म-परिवर्तन तक करवाया|

उदहारण: औरंगजेब ने बादशाह बनते ही सर्वखाप पंचायत को सुलह-समझोते के लिए दिल्ली आने का निमंत्रण भेजा| सर्वखाप ने निमंत्रण स्वीकार कर जिन २१ (21) नेताओं को दिल्ली भेजा था उनमें ग्यारह जाट, तीन राजपूत, एक ब्रह्मण, एक वैश्य, एक सैनी, एक त्यागी, एक गुर्जर, एक खान और एक रोड थे. इन २१ (21) नेताओं के सामने औरंगजेब ने धोखा किया और इनके सामने इस्लाम या मौत में से एक चुनने का हुक्म दिया| दल के मुखिया राव हरिराय ने औरंग...जेब से जमकर बहस की तथा कहा कि शर्वखाप पंचायत शांति चाहती है वह टकराव नहीं| औरंगजेब ने जिद नहीं छोड़ी तो इन नेताओं ने इस्लाम धर्म स्वीकार करने से इनकार कर दिया| परिणाम स्वरुप सन १६७० (1670) ई. की कार्तिक कृष्ण दशमी के दिन चांदनी चौक दिल्ली में इन २१ (21) नेताओं को एक साथ फंसी पर लटका दिया गया| जब यह खबर पंचायत के पास पहुंची तो चहुँओर मातम छा गया| इसके बाद धर्मान्तरण की आंधी चलने लगी| साथ ही सर्वखाप पंचायत का अस्तित्व खतरे में पड़ गया|

उन 21 धर्म पर कुर्बान होने वालों के नाम थे: उनके नाम थे- राव हरिराय, धूम सिंह, फूल सिंह, शीशराम, हरदेवा, राम लाल, बलि राम, माल चंद, हर पाल, नवल सिंह, गंगा राम, चंदू राम, हर सहाय, नेत राम, हर वंश, मन सुख, मूल चंद, हर देवा, राम नारायण, भोला और हरिद्वारी|

सो जो ये दावे ठोंकते हैं कि अंतरजातीय या अंतर्धर्म विवाहों से जाति-पाती और धार्मिंक उन्माद खत्म किया जा सकता है तो वो ख्यालों की दुनिया में जा के दावे ठोंकते हैं|

[bsbana]

"based on few of upper strata people in Delhi."
People I m quoting are middle class , teaching and govt service background .
You know 1 example of inter-religious marriage. Against love-Jihad(that's popular and controversial term), two big dominate Hindu castes(Nair and Ezahava) of Kerala shook their hand together, lol even Christian missionaries and RSS agreed to do propaganda against such marriages. It's not as common as you are making, most member on JL are from middle class only.

[rekhasmriti]

Phool Kumar Ji ,

aise kisse apko kafi mil jayenge--but ur stated incident is much into racism than religion n caste .
Anyways u have ur own views n i have my own .

[bsbana]

Phool Kumar Ji ,

aise kisse apko kafi mil jayenge--but ur stated incident is much into racism than religion n caste .
Anyways u have ur own views n i have my own .
Racism coupled with religion.

[vipinrathee]

Im not able to understand one thing that why we middle class people always crib about inter caste n inter religion marriage. This phenomena is absent in upper strata society...Cities in india have become culture melting pot...These days people r wise enough to take decisions so no societal pressure should be imposed on them. I know many people who did inter caste marriages n living happy married life..Its common among bureaucrats, judicial officers ,politicians...
we have to overcome this kind of stereotype perception...

[phoolkumar]

Absolutely Rathee Sahab.....it all should leave on the magnum of individuals.....


Im not able to understand one thing that why we middle class people always crib about inter caste n inter religion marriage. This phenomena is absent in upper strata society...Cities in india have become culture melting pot...These days people r wise enough to take decisions so no societal pressure should be imposed on them. I know many people who did inter caste marriages n living happy married life..Its common among bureaucrats, judicial officers ,politicians...
we have to overcome this kind of stereotype perception...