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rkumar
May 3rd, 2013, 07:59 PM
For quite sometime I have been wondering as to why we don't have reliable historic records ? We don't hae to go and look too far to understand this problem. Let us analyse our own habits of record keeping. Most of us belonging to my generation and before don't even know our correct date of birth as no one bothered to keep the record. People from my father's generation did not even know on which date they got married and when their parents died. Rarely we conserve the artifacts of our parents and grandparents. We have no respect for old buildings in villages and allow them decay. This much about our personal and local history.

Now let me tell you all about the level of common people about historical buildings. There is a village called "Banti Khera", about 7-10 km from Shamli. There is an old Mughal period tomb in the village. As a child I visited the village. Everybody in the village told me that the tomb was constructed in a singe night by "Ghosts". I too believed the story as a child.

We have total contempt for record keeping and this is why we face problems when it comes to knowing the right history. Moreover, there is a saying, " Beeti Tahi bisar de, aage ki sudh leie". This simply amounts to neglecting anything which has already happened.

RK^2

sivach
May 4th, 2013, 01:47 PM
आप ने महत्वपूर्ण बात कही है मुझे इसके एक दो कारण नज़र आते सबसे पहला उस वक़्त ज्यादातर लोगो को पढ़ना और लिखना आता ही नहीं था तो रिकॉर्ड कैसे रखते और जिनको लिखना पढ़ना आता था उन्होंने अपनी महिमामंडन के चलते जानकारियाँ लिखित में रखी और मुहं जबानी ही समयानुसार बात कही और अपने ज्ञान को अगली पीढ़ी तक नहीं पहुँचाया|

Arvindc
May 4th, 2013, 09:16 PM
Blame the pandits. They never let the education to be freely passed on to others.

DrRajpalSingh
May 4th, 2013, 10:45 PM
We must remember that the oldest book in the world, the Rigveda, belongs to India.

DrRajpalSingh
May 4th, 2013, 10:46 PM
The record of the concept of Dhamma as visualised by Emperor Asoka Maurya and his Edicts are second to none in the world.

vicky84
May 5th, 2013, 04:50 AM
The record of the concept of Dhamma as visualised by Emperor Asoka Maurya and his Edicts are second to none in the world.


Good to know about this record keeping but today I think we are nowhere in record keeping as compared to developed countries. A quick look at the National Archives website(http://nationalarchives.nic.in/Default.aspx) tell us so. I just did some comparison between National Archives of Australia(http://www.naa.gov.au/) with National Archives of India. After comparison I will give ZERO to National Archives of India.

National Archives of India website is in so poor condition that even a naive web developer would not appreciate its home page. Here, I am just talking about look and feel of website. Looks like website development is done by someone who is learning to build web pages. In fact a learner would not leave so much junk(like &nbsp) on the page.

Now coming to point of functionality, again I would give a ZERO to National Archives of India because website is of no use. Search gives you zero results. No good functionality, almost negligible digitization of records, no features. I wonder if the phone numbers(Contact Us) mentioned on the website are correct. It's a dog's breakfast!!!!!!!!

Only solution to such problems is to change bureaucracy. Generalization in bureaucracy is killing us!!

DrRajpalSingh
May 5th, 2013, 08:53 AM
Shri R.Kumar has rightly nailed the issue by starting the thread

to arouse the interest and concern of history lovers about the dire

need of available sources of information to be kept in good condition

in various archives, private and government both.

This is a gigantic project and needs immediate planning and proper execution

so that both literary and archaeological sources are not lost to posterity !!

vicky84
May 5th, 2013, 09:45 AM
This is a gigantic project and needs immediate planning and proper execution

so that both literary and archaeological sources are not lost to posterity !!
That is right, but immediate planning and proper execution needs interested people like you. Not the uninterested people who landed there because a minister ordered so!

DrRajpalSingh
May 5th, 2013, 10:04 AM
That is right, but immediate planning and proper execution needs interested people like you. Not the uninterested people who landed there because a minister ordered so!

Friend,

This is not so. There is no dearth of well qualified and dedicated professionals managing our archival sources but the work is so enormous that it requires continued inflow of funds and latest techniques of record keeping that are not coming and we are lagging behind others in this fund.

The planning and execution makes a difference as is revealed by the records available and kept at Nehru Memorial Museum and Library,Teenmurati Bhawan, Delhi. They are second to none in preservation and upkeep.

Thanks

vicky84
May 5th, 2013, 10:15 AM
Friend,

This is not so. There is no dearth of well qualified and dedicated professionals managing our archival sources but the work is so enormous that it requires continued inflow of funds and latest techniques of record keeping that are not coming and we are lagging behind others in this fund.

The planning and execution makes a difference as is revealed by the records available and kept at Nehru Memorial Museum and Library,Teenmurati Bhawan, Delhi. They are second to none in preservation and upkeep.

Thanks
There may be some qualified and dedicated professional managing archival sources but in overall it lacks a practice of professionalism. For example, National Archives can be extended to Service Records, Family History etc. Even with the available resources, you can do much better than available mess I have seen on their website. I do not agree with your statement about professionals working in National archives are professionals If they are so dedicated professionals then you should not see so much mess on the current website. The mess on website reflects the professionalism in the organisation.

swaich
May 5th, 2013, 11:28 AM
We must remember that the oldest book in the world, the Rigveda, belongs to India.

I believe the OP is talking about 'written' records. Isnt the Rig Veda a collection of religious hymns/poems passed verbally from one generation to another? When were they actually written down? In the Gupta period?

AnkurMalik
May 5th, 2013, 12:35 PM
I believe the OP is talking about 'written' records. Isnt the Rig Veda a collection of religious hymns/poems passed verbally from one generation to another? When were they actually written down? In the Gupta period?
my dear friend, one has to tell the story n then u write.

nrao
May 5th, 2013, 01:20 PM
For quite sometime I have been wondering as to why we don't have reliable historic records ? We don't hae to go and look too far to understand this problem. Let us analyse our own habits of record keeping. Most of us belonging to my generation and before don't even know our correct date of birth as no one bothered to keep the record. People from my father's generation did not even know on which date they got married and when their parents died. Rarely we conserve the artifacts of our parents and grandparents. We have no respect for old buildings in villages and allow them decay. This much about our personal and local history.

Now let me tell you all about the level of common people about historical buildings. There is a village called "Banti Khera", about 7-10 km from Shamli. There is an old Mughal period tomb in the village. As a child I visited the village. Everybody in the village told me that the tomb was constructed in a singe night by "Ghosts". I too believed the story as a child.

We have total contempt for record keeping and this is why we face problems when it comes to knowing the right history. Moreover, there is a saying, " Beeti Tahi bisar de, aage ki sudh leie". This simply amounts to neglecting anything which has already happened.

RK^2

I just posted something on Jat history group and thought I would share. The context is that Ved, Puran, Mahabharat were created and written in 3rd - 5th century CE during Gupt kaal. But Indian history has a much better at recording and referencing these texts than we give them credit and all these examples record Ved, Puran and Mahabharat apart from numerous other fields of study:

Arthashastra (commonly accepted as dated about 2400 years before present)

अशा-०१.३.०१
साम.ऋग्.यजुर्.वेदास् त्रयस् त्रयी ॥
अशा-०१.३.०२
अथर्व.वेद.इतिहास.वेदौ च वेदाः ॥
अशा-०१.३.०३
शिक्षा कल्पो व्याकरणं निरुक्तं छन्दो.विचितिर् ज्योतिषम् इति च_अङ्गानि ॥

Chapter III
THE three Vedas, Sama, Rik and Yajus, constitute the triple Vedas. These together with Atharvaveda and the Itihasaveda are (known as) the Vedas.

Siksha (Phonetics), Kalpa (ceremonial injunctions), Vyakarana (grammar), Nirukta (glossarial explanation of obscure Vedic terms), Chandas (Prosody), and Astronomy form the Angas.


Griha Sutra (dated about 2500 years before present)
ADHYAYA III KANDIKA 4.

1. He satiates the deities: 'Pragapati, Brahman, the Vedas, the gods, the Rishis, all metres, the word
Om ...

2. 4. 'Sumantu, Gaimini, Vaisampayana, Paila, the Sutras, the Bhashyas, the Bharata, the Mahabharata, the teachers of law ...



Chandogya Upnishad (commonly accepted as dated to about 2800-2700 Before Present)

Fourth Khand
Om,’ superior to the three Vedas, the immortal refuge

1.Om! One should reverence the Udgītha as this syllable, for one sings the loud chant [beginning] with ‘Om.’

The further explanation thereof [is as follows].—

2. Verily, the gods, when they were afraid of death, took refuge in the threefold knowledge [i.e. the three Vedas]. They covered (acchādayan) themselves with meters. Because they covered themselves with these, therefore the meters are called chandas.

3. Death saw them there, in the Ṛic, in the Sāman, in the Yajus, just as one might see a fish in water. When they found this out, they arose out of the Ṛic, out of the Sāman, out of the Yajus, and took refuge in sound.

4. Verily, when one finishes an Ṛic, he sounds out ‘Om’; similarly a Sāman; similarly a Yajus. This sound is that syllable.1 It is immortal, fearless. By taking refuge in it the gods became immortal, fearless.

5. He who pronounces the syllable, knowing it thus, takes refuge in that syllable, in the immortal, fearless sound. Since the gods became immortal by taking refuge in it, therefore he becomes immortal.


Seventh Prapathak
First Khund

1. Om! ‘Teach me, Sir!’ — with these words Nārada came to Sanatkumāra.

To him he then said: ‘Come to me with what you know. Then I will tell you still further.’

2. Then he said to him: ‘Sir, I know the Rig-Veda, the Yajur-Veda, the Sāma-Veda, the Atharva-Veda as the fourth, Legend and Ancient Lore (itihāsa-purāṇa) as the fifth, the Veda of the Vedas [i.e. Grammar], Rites for the Manes, Mathematics, Augury (daiva), Chronology, Logic, Polity, the Science of the Gods (deva-vidyā), the Science of Sacred Knowledge (brahma-vidyā), Demonology (bhūta-vidyā), Military Science (kṣatra-vidyā), Astrology (nakṣatra-vidyā), the Science of Snake-charming, and the Fine Arts (sarpa-devajana-vidyā).
This, Sir, I know.

3. Such a one am I, Sir, knowing the sacred sayings (mantra-vid), but not knowing the Soul (Ātman). It has been heard by me from those who are like you, Sir, that he who knows the Soul (Ātman) crosses over sorrow. Such a sorrowing one am I, Sir. Do you, Sir, cause me, who am such a one, to cross over to the other side of sorrow.’

To him he then said: ‘Verily, whatever you have here learned, verily, that is mere name (nāman).

4. Verily, a Name are the Rig-Veda, the Yajur-Veda, the Sāma-Veda, the Atharva-Veda as the fourth, Legend and Ancient Lore (itihāsa-purāṇa) as the fifth, the Veda of the Vedas [i.e. Grammar], Rites for the Manes, Mathematics, Augury (daiva), Chronology, Logic, Polity, the Science of the Gods (deva-vidyā), the Science of Sacred Knowledge (brahma-vidyā), Demonology (bhūta-vidyā), Military Science (kṣatra-vidyā), Astrology (nakṣatra-vidyā), the Science of Snake-charming, and the Fine Arts (sarpa-devajana-vidyā). This is mere Name. Reverence Name.


Apart from above, I thought this was interesting as well from Arthashastra where students are advised to study lipi:

अशा-०१.५.०७
वृत्त.चौल.कर्मा लिपिं संख्यानं च_उपयुञ्जीत ॥
Having undergone the ceremony of tonsure, the student shall learn the alphabet (lipi) and arithmetic.

nrao
May 6th, 2013, 12:03 AM
Just a clarification, the word Itihas as used in ancient texts is used for Ramayan and Mahabharat.


I just posted something on Jat history group and thought I would share. The context is that Ved, Puran, Mahabharat were created and written in 3rd - 5th century CE during Gupt kaal. But Indian history has a much better at recording and referencing these texts than we give them credit and all these examples record Ved, Puran and Mahabharat apart from numerous other fields of study:

Arthashastra (commonly accepted as dated about 2400 years before present)

अशा-०१.३.०१
साम.ऋग्.यजुर्.वेदास् त्रयस् त्रयी ॥
अशा-०१.३.०२
अथर्व.वेद.इतिहास.वेदौ च वेदाः ॥
अशा-०१.३.०३
शिक्षा कल्पो व्याकरणं निरुक्तं छन्दो.विचितिर् ज्योतिषम् इति च_अङ्गानि ॥

Chapter III
THE three Vedas, Sama, Rik and Yajus, constitute the triple Vedas. These together with Atharvaveda and the Itihasaveda are (known as) the Vedas.

Siksha (Phonetics), Kalpa (ceremonial injunctions), Vyakarana (grammar), Nirukta (glossarial explanation of obscure Vedic terms), Chandas (Prosody), and Astronomy form the Angas.


Griha Sutra (dated about 2500 years before present)
ADHYAYA III KANDIKA 4.

1. He satiates the deities: 'Pragapati, Brahman, the Vedas, the gods, the Rishis, all metres, the word
Om ...

2. 4. 'Sumantu, Gaimini, Vaisampayana, Paila, the Sutras, the Bhashyas, the Bharata, the Mahabharata, the teachers of law ...



Chandogya Upnishad (commonly accepted as dated to about 2800-2700 Before Present)

Fourth Khand
Om,’ superior to the three Vedas, the immortal refuge

1.Om! One should reverence the Udgītha as this syllable, for one sings the loud chant [beginning] with ‘Om.’

The further explanation thereof [is as follows].—

2. Verily, the gods, when they were afraid of death, took refuge in the threefold knowledge [i.e. the three Vedas]. They covered (acchādayan) themselves with meters. Because they covered themselves with these, therefore the meters are called chandas.

3. Death saw them there, in the Ṛic, in the Sāman, in the Yajus, just as one might see a fish in water. When they found this out, they arose out of the Ṛic, out of the Sāman, out of the Yajus, and took refuge in sound.

4. Verily, when one finishes an Ṛic, he sounds out ‘Om’; similarly a Sāman; similarly a Yajus. This sound is that syllable.1 It is immortal, fearless. By taking refuge in it the gods became immortal, fearless.

5. He who pronounces the syllable, knowing it thus, takes refuge in that syllable, in the immortal, fearless sound. Since the gods became immortal by taking refuge in it, therefore he becomes immortal.


Seventh Prapathak
First Khund

1. Om! ‘Teach me, Sir!’ — with these words Nārada came to Sanatkumāra.

To him he then said: ‘Come to me with what you know. Then I will tell you still further.’

2. Then he said to him: ‘Sir, I know the Rig-Veda, the Yajur-Veda, the Sāma-Veda, the Atharva-Veda as the fourth, Legend and Ancient Lore (itihāsa-purāṇa) as the fifth, the Veda of the Vedas [i.e. Grammar], Rites for the Manes, Mathematics, Augury (daiva), Chronology, Logic, Polity, the Science of the Gods (deva-vidyā), the Science of Sacred Knowledge (brahma-vidyā), Demonology (bhūta-vidyā), Military Science (kṣatra-vidyā), Astrology (nakṣatra-vidyā), the Science of Snake-charming, and the Fine Arts (sarpa-devajana-vidyā).
This, Sir, I know.

3. Such a one am I, Sir, knowing the sacred sayings (mantra-vid), but not knowing the Soul (Ātman). It has been heard by me from those who are like you, Sir, that he who knows the Soul (Ātman) crosses over sorrow. Such a sorrowing one am I, Sir. Do you, Sir, cause me, who am such a one, to cross over to the other side of sorrow.’

To him he then said: ‘Verily, whatever you have here learned, verily, that is mere name (nāman).

4. Verily, a Name are the Rig-Veda, the Yajur-Veda, the Sāma-Veda, the Atharva-Veda as the fourth, Legend and Ancient Lore (itihāsa-purāṇa) as the fifth, the Veda of the Vedas [i.e. Grammar], Rites for the Manes, Mathematics, Augury (daiva), Chronology, Logic, Polity, the Science of the Gods (deva-vidyā), the Science of Sacred Knowledge (brahma-vidyā), Demonology (bhūta-vidyā), Military Science (kṣatra-vidyā), Astrology (nakṣatra-vidyā), the Science of Snake-charming, and the Fine Arts (sarpa-devajana-vidyā). This is mere Name. Reverence Name.


Apart from above, I thought this was interesting as well from Arthashastra where students are advised to study lipi:

अशा-०१.५.०७
वृत्त.चौल.कर्मा लिपिं संख्यानं च_उपयुञ्जीत ॥
Having undergone the ceremony of tonsure, the student shall learn the alphabet (lipi) and arithmetic.

DrRajpalSingh
May 6th, 2013, 08:22 AM
Just a clarification, the word Itihas as used in ancient texts is used for Ramayan and Mahabharat.


Kindly share the base/source of this definition of the ancient Itihas please.

ssgoyat
May 6th, 2013, 10:56 AM
Friend,

This is not so. There is no dearth of well qualified and dedicated professionals managing our archival sources but the work is so enormous that it requires continued inflow of funds and latest techniques of record keeping that are not coming and we are lagging behind others in this fund.

The planning and execution makes a difference as is revealed by the records available and kept at Nehru Memorial Museum and Library,Teenmurati Bhawan, Delhi. They are second to none in preservation and upkeep.

Thanks

Dear Rajpal Ji,

Ask any SBI internet banking user (so called the largest PSU bank in profits/volume/branches and almost every criteria),they don't have transactional records prior 01 April 2010, i believe they've no dearth of funds/latest techniques. what to talk about other core government departments.

DrRajpalSingh
May 6th, 2013, 03:57 PM
Dear Rajpal Ji,

Ask any SBI internet banking user (so called the largest PSU bank in profits/volume/branches and almost every criteria),they don't have transactional records prior 01 April 2010, i believe they've no dearth of funds/latest techniques. what to talk about other core government departments.

Thanks friend for the information.

But I think we are talking here about historical records and their upkeep and maintenance !

ssgoyat
May 7th, 2013, 04:25 PM
Thanks friend for the information.

But I think we are talking here about historical records and their upkeep and maintenance !

But I think lethargic attitude, Quality & lack of professionalism among govt employees is not restricted to History deptt. only, though there are plenty of funds available for upkeep & maintenace, and latest technology available.

Few more success stories are: IRCTC website, UIDAI (cards not reaching to applicants even after years), e passport etc...

eg from today's news: http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and-nation/passport-office-seeks-criminal-affidavit-for-infant/articleshow/19927956.cms

Here, they don't even bother to update the requisite documents required on websites. How long does it take to update a website?

DrRajpalSingh
May 7th, 2013, 05:07 PM
Startling revelations indeed !

rkumar
May 7th, 2013, 05:22 PM
Much might be known about the history of kings, but very little is known about local village history. Its all vague. Very few of us know when our village was founded and who were the first settlers. Very few of us know about our own 5-6 generation details. I have seen old beautiful houses being demolished to build new box like ones. Old artistc doors thrown out. Antique wooden box of grand mother finding no place in house. Gone is gone. At least at personal level we should start saving old artifacts of the family and keep them in some sort of family museum. May be each village has a small museum where village artifacts can be kept safely. Do our kids know how Mussal and Okhli used to look like? Do they know how our grand mother used to spin and make bundles of cotton thread? Most of the home and agriculture tools of even my generation are gone. Very few kids know how the "rahat" used to look like. Culture of "Panghat" has disappeared along with "Dole and Naijju".

vicky84
May 7th, 2013, 06:02 PM
Startling revelations indeed !
Sooner we open our eyes, the better we are! Wake up call indeed!

nrao
May 13th, 2013, 12:18 AM
I just posted something on Jat history group and thought I would share. The context is that Ved, Puran, Mahabharat were created and written in 3rd - 5th century CE during Gupt kaal. But Indian history has a much better at recording and referencing these texts than we give them credit and all these examples record Ved, Puran and Mahabharat apart from numerous other fields of study:

Arthashastra (commonly accepted as dated about 2400 years before present)

अशा-०१.३.०१
साम.ऋग्.यजुर्.वेदास् त्रयस् त्रयी ॥
अशा-०१.३.०२
अथर्व.वेद.इतिहास.वेदौ च वेदाः ॥
अशा-०१.३.०३
शिक्षा कल्पो व्याकरणं निरुक्तं छन्दो.विचितिर् ज्योतिषम् इति च_अङ्गानि ॥

Chapter III
THE three Vedas, Sama, Rik and Yajus, constitute the triple Vedas. These together with Atharvaveda and the Itihasaveda are (known as) the Vedas.

Siksha (Phonetics), Kalpa (ceremonial injunctions), Vyakarana (grammar), Nirukta (glossarial explanation of obscure Vedic terms), Chandas (Prosody), and Astronomy form the Angas.


Griha Sutra (dated about 2500 years before present)
ADHYAYA III KANDIKA 4.

1. He satiates the deities: 'Pragapati, Brahman, the Vedas, the gods, the Rishis, all metres, the word
Om ...

2. 4. 'Sumantu, Gaimini, Vaisampayana, Paila, the Sutras, the Bhashyas, the Bharata, the Mahabharata, the teachers of law ...



Chandogya Upnishad (commonly accepted as dated to about 2800-2700 Before Present)

Fourth Khand
Om,’ superior to the three Vedas, the immortal refuge

1.Om! One should reverence the Udgītha as this syllable, for one sings the loud chant [beginning] with ‘Om.’

The further explanation thereof [is as follows].—

2. Verily, the gods, when they were afraid of death, took refuge in the threefold knowledge [i.e. the three Vedas]. They covered (acchādayan) themselves with meters. Because they covered themselves with these, therefore the meters are called chandas.

3. Death saw them there, in the Ṛic, in the Sāman, in the Yajus, just as one might see a fish in water. When they found this out, they arose out of the Ṛic, out of the Sāman, out of the Yajus, and took refuge in sound.

4. Verily, when one finishes an Ṛic, he sounds out ‘Om’; similarly a Sāman; similarly a Yajus. This sound is that syllable.1 It is immortal, fearless. By taking refuge in it the gods became immortal, fearless.

5. He who pronounces the syllable, knowing it thus, takes refuge in that syllable, in the immortal, fearless sound. Since the gods became immortal by taking refuge in it, therefore he becomes immortal.


Seventh Prapathak
First Khund

1. Om! ‘Teach me, Sir!’ — with these words Nārada came to Sanatkumāra.

To him he then said: ‘Come to me with what you know. Then I will tell you still further.’

2. Then he said to him: ‘Sir, I know the Rig-Veda, the Yajur-Veda, the Sāma-Veda, the Atharva-Veda as the fourth, Legend and Ancient Lore (itihāsa-purāṇa) as the fifth, the Veda of the Vedas [i.e. Grammar], Rites for the Manes, Mathematics, Augury (daiva), Chronology, Logic, Polity, the Science of the Gods (deva-vidyā), the Science of Sacred Knowledge (brahma-vidyā), Demonology (bhūta-vidyā), Military Science (kṣatra-vidyā), Astrology (nakṣatra-vidyā), the Science of Snake-charming, and the Fine Arts (sarpa-devajana-vidyā).
This, Sir, I know.

3. Such a one am I, Sir, knowing the sacred sayings (mantra-vid), but not knowing the Soul (Ātman). It has been heard by me from those who are like you, Sir, that he who knows the Soul (Ātman) crosses over sorrow. Such a sorrowing one am I, Sir. Do you, Sir, cause me, who am such a one, to cross over to the other side of sorrow.’

To him he then said: ‘Verily, whatever you have here learned, verily, that is mere name (nāman).

4. Verily, a Name are the Rig-Veda, the Yajur-Veda, the Sāma-Veda, the Atharva-Veda as the fourth, Legend and Ancient Lore (itihāsa-purāṇa) as the fifth, the Veda of the Vedas [i.e. Grammar], Rites for the Manes, Mathematics, Augury (daiva), Chronology, Logic, Polity, the Science of the Gods (deva-vidyā), the Science of Sacred Knowledge (brahma-vidyā), Demonology (bhūta-vidyā), Military Science (kṣatra-vidyā), Astrology (nakṣatra-vidyā), the Science of Snake-charming, and the Fine Arts (sarpa-devajana-vidyā). This is mere Name. Reverence Name.


Apart from above, I thought this was interesting as well from Arthashastra where students are advised to study lipi:

अशा-०१.५.०७
वृत्त.चौल.कर्मा लिपिं संख्यानं च_उपयुञ्जीत ॥
Having undergone the ceremony of tonsure, the student shall learn the alphabet (lipi) and arithmetic.


Kindly share the base/source of this definition of the ancient Itihas please.

MBh: 18.5.31 -
पुण्यॊ ऽयम इतिहासाख्यः पवित्रं चेदम उत्तमम
कृष्णेन मुनिना विप्र नियतं सत्यवादिना

Called a history, it is sacred, sanctifying and excellent. It has been composed by the ascetic Krishna, O Brahmana, of truthful speech.

18.5.42-43 -

42 - नारदॊ ऽशरावयद देवान असितॊ देवलः पितॄन
रक्षॊयक्षाञ शुकॊ मर्त्यान वैशम्पायन एव तु
43 - इतिहासम इमं पुण्यं महार्थं वेद संमितम
शरावयेद यस तु वर्णांस तरीन कृत्वा बराह्मणम अग्रतः

Narada recited the Mahabharata to the gods; Asita-Devala to the Pitris; Suka to the Rakshasas and the Yakshas; and Vaishampayana to human beings. This history is sacred, and of high import, and regarded as equal to the Vedas. That man, O Saunaka, who hears this history, placing a Brahmana before him, acquires both fame and the fruition of all his wishes.

DrRajpalSingh
May 13th, 2013, 07:26 AM
MBh: 18.5.31 -
पुण्यॊ ऽयम इतिहासाख्यः पवित्रं चेदम उत्तमम
कृष्णेन मुनिना विप्र नियतं सत्यवादिना

Called a history, it is sacred, sanctifying and excellent. It has been composed by the ascetic Krishna, O Brahmana, of truthful speech.

18.5.42-43 -

42 - नारदॊ ऽशरावयद देवान असितॊ देवलः पितॄन
रक्षॊयक्षाञ शुकॊ मर्त्यान वैशम्पायन एव तु
43 - इतिहासम इमं पुण्यं महार्थं वेद संमितम
शरावयेद यस तु वर्णांस तरीन कृत्वा बराह्मणम अग्रतः

Narada recited the Mahabharata to the gods; Asita-Devala to the Pitris; Suka to the Rakshasas and the Yakshas; and Vaishampayana to human beings. This history is sacred, and of high import, and regarded as equal to the Vedas. That man, O Saunaka, who hears this history, placing a Brahmana before him, acquires both fame and the fruition of all his wishes.

The sacredness and importance of History equal to Vedas is alright; but it is to be noted that

original epic Jaya known as Mahabharata was composed by Maharishi Vyas Vaishampayana as contemporary history immediately after the Bharata battle and was not "composed by the ascetic Krishna."

The references quoted here seem to be interpolation to the original epic by latter authors/editors of the Epic to impose Brahmanic supremacy on the knowledge as they prescribed pre condition before the listener of Mahabharata/Itihas of ''placing a Brahmana before him'' to ''acquire both fame and the fruition of all his wishes''.

This twisting of facts and monopoly of knowledge in the hands of a few by vested interests led to more disastrous impact on Indian society than the Bharata battle itself !!!

nrao
May 13th, 2013, 09:15 AM
The sacredness and importance of History equal to Vedas is alright; but it is to be noted that

original epic Jaya known as Mahabharata was composed by Maharishi Vyas Vaishampayana as contemporary history immediately after the Bharata battle and was not "composed by the ascetic Krishna."

The references quoted here seem to be interpolation to the original epic by latter authors/editors of the Epic to impose Brahmanic supremacy on the knowledge as they prescribed pre condition before the listener of Mahabharata/Itihas of ''placing a Brahmana before him'' to ''acquire both fame and the fruition of all his wishes''.

This twisting of facts and monopoly of knowledge in the hands of a few by vested interests led to more disastrous impact on Indian society than the Bharata battle itself !!!

Phir jaldi kar di. I provided those quotes just to show that word 'itihasa' does occur in MBh and is referred to as such.

Agar poora slok padhain to is prakar se hai:

26 [सूत]
एतच छरुत्वा दविजश्रेष्ठात स राजा जनमेजयः
विस्मितॊ ऽभवद अत्यर्थं यज्ञकर्मान्तरेष्व अथ
27 ततः समापयाम आसुः कर्म तत तस्य याजकाः
आस्तीकश चाभवत परीतः परिमॊक्ष्य भुजंगमान
28 ततॊ दविजातीन सर्वांस तान दक्षिणाभिर अतॊषयत
पूजिताश चापि ते राज्ञा ततॊ जग्मुर यथागतम
29 विसर्जयित्वा विप्रांस तान राजापि जनमेजयः
ततस तक्षशिलायाः स पुनर आयाद गजाह्वयम
30 एतत ते सर्वम आख्यातं वैशम्पायन कीर्तितम
वयासाज्ञया समाख्यातं सर्पसत्त्रे नृपस्य ह
31 पुण्यॊ ऽयम इतिहासाख्यः पवित्रं चेदम उत्तमम
कृष्णेन मुनिना विप्र नियतं सत्यवादिना
32 सर्वज्ञेन विधिज्ञेन धर्मज्ञानवता सता
अतीन्द्रियेण शुचिना तपसा भावितात्मना
33 ऐश्वर्ये वर्तता चैव सांख्ययॊगविदा तथा
नैकतन्त्र विबुद्धेन दृष्ट्वा दिव्येन चक्षुषा
34 कीर्तिं परथयता लॊके पाण्डवानां महात्मनाम
अन्येषां कषत्रियाणां च भूरि दरविण तेजसाम
35 य इदं शरावयेद विद्वान सदा पर्वणि पर्वणि
धूतपाप्मा जितस्वर्गॊ बरह्मभूयाय गच्छति
36 यश चेदं शरावयेच छराद्धे बराह्मणान पादम अन्ततः
अक्षय्यम अन्नपानं वै पितॄंस तस्यॊपतिष्ठते
37 अह्ना यद एनः कुरुते इन्द्रियैर मनसापि वा
महाभारतम आख्याय पश्चात संध्यां परमुच्यते
38 धर्मे चार्थे च कामे च मॊक्षे च भरतर्षभ
यद इहास्ति तद अन्यत्र यन नेहास्ति न तत कव चित
39 यजॊ नामेतिहासॊ ऽयं शरॊतव्यॊ भूतिम इच्छता
रज्ञा राजसुतैश चापि गर्भिण्या चैव यॊषिता
40 सवर्गकामॊ लभेत सवर्गं जय कामॊ लभेज जयम
गर्भिणी लभते पुत्रं कन्यां वा बहु भागिनीम
41 अनागतं तरिभिर वर्षैः कृष्णद्वैपायनः परभुः
संदर्भं भारतस्यास्य कृतवान धर्मकाम्यया
42 नारदॊ ऽशरावयद देवान असितॊ देवलः पितॄन
रक्षॊयक्षाञ शुकॊ मर्त्यान वैशम्पायन एव तु

"...
Sauti said: Hearing this, ye foremost of regenerate ones, at the intervals of sacrificial rites, king Janamejaya became filled with wonder. The sacrificial priests then finished the rites that remained to be gone through. Astika, having rescued the snakes (from fiery death), became filled with joy. King Janamejaya then gratified all the vipr with copious presents. Thus rewarded by the king, they returned to their respective abodes. Having dismissed those vipr, king Janamejaya came back from Takshasila to the city named after the elephant.

I have now told everything that Vaishampayana narrated, at the command of Vyasa, unto the king at his snake sacrifice. Called a history, it is sacred, sanctifying and excellent. It has been composed by the ascetic Krishna, O Brahmana, of truthful speech. He is omniscient, conversant with all ordinances, possessed of a knowledge of all duties, endued with piety, capable of perceiving what is beyond the ken of the senses, pure, having a soul cleansed by penances, possessed of the six high attributes, and devoted to Sankhya Yoga. He has composed this, beholding everything with a celestial eye that has been cleansed (strengthened) by varied lore. He has done this, desiring to spread the fame, throughout the world, of the high-souled Pandavas, as also of other Kshatriyas possessed of abundant wealth of energy.

That learned man who recites this history of sacred days in the midst of a listening auditory becomes cleansed of every sin, conquers Heaven, and attains to the status of Brahma. Of that man who listens with rapt attention to the recitation of the whole of this Veda composed by (the Island-born) Krishna, a million sins, are washed off. The Pitris of that man who recites even a small portion of this history at a Sraddha, obtain inexhaustible food and drink. The sins that one commits during the day by one’s senses or the mind are all washed off before evening by reciting a portion of the Mahabharata.

The high race of the Bharatas is its topic. Hence it is called Bharata. And because of its grave import, as also of the Bharatas being its topic, it is called Mahabharata. He who is versed in interpretations of this great treatise, becomes cleansed of every sin. Such a man lives in righteousness, wealth, and pleasure, and attains to Emancipation also, O chief of Bharata’s race.

That which occurs here occurs elsewhere. That which does not occur here occurs nowhere else. This history is known by the name of Jaya. It should be heard by every one desirous of Emancipation. It should be read by Brahmanas, by kings, and by women quick with children. He that desires Heaven attains to Heaven; and he that desires victory attains to victory. The woman quick with child gets either a son or a daughter highly blessed. The puissant Island-born Krishna, who will not have to come back, and who is Emancipation incarnate, made an abstract of the Bharata, moved by the desire of aiding the cause of righteousness. He made another compilation consisting of many verses. Many of verses were placed in the region of the deities. In the region of the Pitris, it should be known, many verses are current; while in that of the Yakshas many more are in vogue. One lakh is current among human beings.

Narada recited the Mahabharata to the gods; Asita-Devala to the Pitris; Suka to the Rakshasas and the Yakshas; and Vaishampayana to human beings. This history is sacred, and of high import, and regarded as equal to the Vedas.
..."

I agree that there are many late additions which could be quite biased as well. But at the same time, we know that MBh has itihasa (history) at its core. Due to late additions is also classified as a kavya (epic). I think that it is quite well known.

DrRajpalSingh
May 13th, 2013, 03:46 PM
The sacredness and importance of History equal to Vedas is alright; but it is to be noted that

original epic Jaya known as Mahabharata was composed by Maharishi Vyas Vaishampayana as contemporary history immediately after the Bharata battle and was not "composed by the ascetic Krishna."

The references quoted here seem to be interpolation to the original epic by latter authors/editors of the Epic to impose Brahmanic supremacy on the knowledge as they prescribed pre condition before the listener of Mahabharata/Itihas of ''placing a Brahmana before him'' to ''acquire both fame and the fruition of all his wishes''.

This twisting of facts and monopoly of knowledge in the hands of a few by vested interests led to more disastrous impact on Indian society than the Bharata battle itself !!!

How does your comment noted in the quote relate to what I have said above :


Phir jaldi kar di. .......................

What do you want to convey by using this phrase. What sort of haste do you find in it when I have already accepted that Itihas and its sacredness has been recognised in MBT.

The long quote given by you in your post under reference further cements my conviction that it is very late manipulated version of original Itihas authored by Vyas ji as it contains inner evidence that it is a late composition, after the Brahmanism had revived, perhaps, during the Gupta period.

My dear friend it is not Jaya of Vyas to which you are referring to but a newer and bigger compilation containing one lac verses.

The name of the newer compiler is also given in the last para of your quote i.e. ''The puissant Island-born Krishna.

The description given in the post is self explanatory that it deals with ritualism and to make its authenticity more acceptable to Hindus, the name of the compiler has been invoked as: The Puissant Island-born Krishna.

The Jaya by Vyas was a concise and brief narrative of the contemporary History of Mahabharata/Bharata battle only

but the present Epic Mahabharata deals with so many other myths, mythical stories, rituals and so on.

It would be good if you enlighten us as to who this Puissant Island Born Krishna was, and what is his timeline? Was he alive when the Snake Sacrifice or Taxaka battle occur about which first few verses of your quote refer to.

Thanks

sanjeev1984
May 13th, 2013, 04:15 PM
Lakin Sir....
Birth and shadi ke records "bhaath" rukhte the, aaj bhi rukhte hain... or aa kar humare poorvajo ke naam bhi batate hain gaane gaa kar... or marne ke records gangaji par "pande" rukhte hain...

maine bhaath or pando se data le kar apna family tree bhi banaya hai... mugjhe bahot peedhi piche tak ka data mila hai unse...


For quite sometime I have been wondering as to why we don't have reliable historic records ? We don't hae to go and look too far to understand this problem. Let us analyse our own habits of record keeping. Most of us belonging to my generation and before don't even know our correct date of birth as no one bothered to keep the record. People from my father's generation did not even know on which date they got married and when their parents died. Rarely we conserve the artifacts of our parents and grandparents. We have no respect for old buildings in villages and allow them decay. This much about our personal and local history.

Now let me tell you all about the level of common people about historical buildings. There is a village called "Banti Khera", about 7-10 km from Shamli. There is an old Mughal period tomb in the village. As a child I visited the village. Everybody in the village told me that the tomb was constructed in a singe night by "Ghosts". I too believed the story as a child.

We have total contempt for record keeping and this is why we face problems when it comes to knowing the right history. Moreover, there is a saying, " Beeti Tahi bisar de, aage ki sudh leie". This simply amounts to neglecting anything which has already happened.

RK^2

nrao
May 14th, 2013, 12:23 PM
How does your comment noted in the quote relate to what I have said above :

It would be good if you enlighten us as to who this Puissant Island Born Krishna was, and what is his timeline? Was he alive when the Snake Sacrifice or Taxaka battle occur about which first few verses of your quote refer to.

Thanks

मेरा यह विचार है -

Island born Krishna is Krishna Dvaipayana Vyas, referring to of course Vyas who was probably born on or came from an island of lake Dvaipayana, the composer of first version of Mahabharat, the Jaya, which is referred as itihasa. Krishna Dvaipayana Vyas was probably around during the rendition at the yagya at Taxshila by king Janamejaya, not sure if he was physically present, and my quotes above show dialogue between Ugrasrava Sauti or Shri Suta and listener sage Saunaka, who refers to Vaishampayana, first narrator of the text after its composition by Vyas.

Incidentally, Lake Dvaipayana is made famous as the final futile attempt by Duryodhan to hide in it after loosing the battle but is soon discovered and killed by Bhim.

So Vyas's composition probably should be considered as the first composition of events as they happened at the victory (Jaya) in the battle of Kurukshetra, hence it is called Itihasa or history. At Taxshila, the rendition of Jaya and addition of text by Vaishampayana is probably the creation of the text known as Bharata which probably is also known as itihasa. I think Vyas was still alive during this first narration by Vaishampayana. Last addition was probably done by Ugrasrava Sauti and the group, where numerous poetic additions were made to create what we now know as the 'first final form' of Mahabharat which got categorized as a kavya (epic). It seems that praises and adulations of brahmins were made during this phase and may not be part of itihasa but that of kavya. I also think that even more additions have happened at later times. Well known example are references to Hun in one of the parv representing 5-6th century CE additions.

An interesting thing is that this tradition of narration or rendition of epic text still carries on in present day India in limited form. Two examples that come to mind are सुन्दर कान्ड पाठ और भागवत पाठ which are organized quite often.

urmiladuhan
August 11th, 2013, 08:18 PM
Record keeping requires writing items which are perishable or else have an age. Palm leaf documents have survived almost 1000 years and some of them can be seen in museums of Orissa etc. Cloth again has limited shelf life unless specific precautions are taken such as keeping away from dust and humidity. The climate of India being tropical, allows for quick disintegration of organic matter. Caves in Tibet region (Buddhist caves) has preserved some of the finest written documents and cloth work dating near mauryan times because of cool and dry weather conditions.





For quite sometime I have been wondering as to why we don't have reliable historic records ? We don't hae to go and look too far to understand this problem. Let us analyse our own habits of record keeping. Most of us belonging to my generation and before don't even know our correct date of birth as no one bothered to keep the record. People from my father's generation did not even know on which date they got married and when their parents died. Rarely we conserve the artifacts of our parents and grandparents. We have no respect for old buildings in villages and allow them decay. This much about our personal and local history.

Now let me tell you all about the level of common people about historical buildings. There is a village called "Banti Khera", about 7-10 km from Shamli. There is an old Mughal period tomb in the village. As a child I visited the village. Everybody in the village told me that the tomb was constructed in a singe night by "Ghosts". I too believed the story as a child.

We have total contempt for record keeping and this is why we face problems when it comes to knowing the right history. Moreover, there is a saying, " Beeti Tahi bisar de, aage ki sudh leie". This simply amounts to neglecting anything which has already happened.

RK^2

urmiladuhan
August 11th, 2013, 08:22 PM
I believe the OP is talking about 'written' records. Isnt the Rig Veda a collection of religious hymns/poems passed verbally from one generation to another? When were they actually written down? In the Gupta period?
Yes. Written during Gupta period. Before that, the traditions were oral.

urmiladuhan
August 11th, 2013, 08:26 PM
That is an excellent idea i.e., for each village to have a village museum. I suppose the panchayat can help in this matter.




QUOTE=rkumar;337385]Much might be known about the history of kings, but very little is known about local village history. Its all vague. Very few of us know when our village was founded and who were the first settlers. Very few of us know about our own 5-6 generation details. I have seen old beautiful houses being demolished to build new box like ones. Old artistc doors thrown out. Antique wooden box of grand mother finding no place in house. Gone is gone. At least at personal level we should start saving old artifacts of the family and keep them in some sort of family museum. May be each village has a small museum where village artifacts can be kept safely. Do our kids know how Mussal and Okhli used to look like? Do they know how our grand mother used to spin and make bundles of cotton thread? Most of the home and agriculture tools of even my generation are gone. Very few kids know how the "rahat" used to look like. Culture of "Panghat" has disappeared along with "Dole and Naijju".[/QUOTE]

DrRajpalSingh
August 11th, 2013, 10:04 PM
Yes. Written during Gupta period. Before that, the traditions were oral.

You mean to say that no written records of Vedic literature were available in India prior to commencement of the Gupta dynasty i.e. 320 AD.

Is it really so !

urmiladuhan
August 12th, 2013, 04:29 AM
[QUOTE=DrRajpalSingh;343984]You mean to say that no written records of Vedic literature were available in India prior to commencement of the Gupta dynasty i.e. 320 A
.................................................. ....................

Dr Rajpal, D. The Ramayana, Mahabharata and other scriptures, kalidas's work etc were written during Gupta period (approximately). Before that oral means were used to transmit the religious traditions. Oral transmissionas was the tradition and not via written form. This is what I have learnt. If you doubt it, Dr. Rajpal, perhaps you have evidence that the religious scriptures were existing in written form during B.C.E.

DrRajpalSingh
November 10th, 2013, 05:58 PM
[QUOTE=DrRajpalSingh;343984]You mean to say that no written records of Vedic literature were available in India prior to commencement of the Gupta dynasty i.e. 320 A
.................................................. ....................

Dr Rajpal, D. The Ramayana, Mahabharata and other scriptures, kalidas's work etc were written during Gupta period (approximately). Before that oral means were used to transmit the religious traditions. Oral transmissionas was the tradition and not via written form. This is what I have learnt. If you doubt it, Dr. Rajpal, perhaps you have evidence that the religious scriptures were existing in written form during B.C.E.

Yes, A lot of documents relating to Maurya period are available.

urmiladuhan
November 10th, 2013, 06:51 PM
A lot of documents relating to Harappa civilization are available. Does that mean they were written during Harappa times?
That is the point.



[QUOTE=urmiladuhan;343993]

Yes, A lot of documents relating to Maurya period are available.

DrRajpalSingh
November 11th, 2013, 08:00 AM
[QUOTE=urmiladuhan;352181]A lot of documents relating to Harappa civilization are available. Does that mean they were written during Harappa times?
That is the point.''


Yes, They were but yet to be deciphered !