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DrRajpalSingh
May 17th, 2013, 04:06 PM
There have been several instances in the history of mankind that a minor looking incident or event let loose such potential force that it changed the well thought out plan or idea, or generated so much vigour in the minds of men to change the course of History of mankind. For example, when an apple came down on the ground before the eyes of Newton, this incident led him to find out the cause as to why the apple did not go to sky instead of falling to ground. And Lo and Behold ! after this event he researched the cause of this event and came out with the theory of gravitation power of the Earth.

In this thread we intend to discuss such trifles or moments in the history of the nation that changed the flow of history to altogether new direction. All are requested to quote such incidents, events, moments in the life of the Indian Nation that caused change in the flow of history in a different direction than that was usually supposed to happen.

Thanks and regards

DrRajpalSingh
May 17th, 2013, 04:18 PM
There have been several instances in the history of mankind that a minor looking incident or event let loose such potential force that it changed the well thought out plan or idea, or generated so much vigour in the minds of men to change the course of History of mankind. For example, when an apple came down on the ground before the eyes of Newton, this incident led him to find out the cause as to why the apple did not go to sky instead of falling to ground. And Lo and Behold ! after this event he researched the cause of this event and came out with the theory of gravitation power of the Earth.

In this thread we intend to discuss such trifles or moments in the history of the nation that changed the flow of history to altogether new direction. All are requested to quote such incidents, events, moments in the life of the Indian Nation that caused change in the flow of history in a different direction than that was usually supposed to happen.

Thanks and regards

Dashratha's eldest son Rama was all set to take over in his hands the reign of Ayodhya from his father next morning.

But the moment Kaikayee demanded fulfillment of the word given by her husband, every plan shattered and instead of throne,

Rama had to move to Jungles for fourteen years.

Thus the momentary decision of his step mother changed the smooth flow of history.

rkumar
May 17th, 2013, 04:49 PM
There are millions of of such if and buts in history. While analyzing history one has the luxury of hindsight wisdom. You quoted the example of Rama going into exile. Thank God Kaikai asked his exile only fr 14 years. else things would have been very different. Who knows, he would have taken over the kingdom of Lanka and ruled it himself. If we analyze Indian history, its filled with steps which indicate that Indians lacked political foresight. Had Prithivi Raj not pardoned Mohamed Ghori, things would have been very different. Indians never learned the art of political foresight. India handed over the Security council permanent membership on platter to China. India lost the opportunity of when Gwadar port in Pakistan was offered to her by Sultanate of Oman in 1947. India lost opportunity to solve Kashmir issue time and again. Mrs Gandhi was considered to be the wisest of all in dealing with adversaries. Even she was fooled by Zulfikar Ali Bhutto while signing Shmila agreement. We remain as stupid as we were 1000 years back. Only good thing which has happened to India is her democracy, else our rulers would have sold us many time over without us even knowing.

Our Late great Shayar Muzaffar Razmi rightly wrote;

Taareekh ka zabr bhi dekha hai in aankhon ne
lamhon ne khata ki, shadiyon ne saza payee.

RK^2

navdeepkhatkar
May 17th, 2013, 05:41 PM
There are millions of of such if and buts in history. While analyzing history one has the luxury of hindsight wisdom. You quoted the example of Rama going into exile. Thank God Kaikai asked his exile only fr 14 years. else things would have been very different. Who knows, he would have taken over the kingdom of Lanka and ruled it himself. If we analyze Indian history, its filled with steps which indicate that Indians lacked political foresight. Had Prithivi Raj not pardoned Mohamed Ghori, things would have been very different. Indians never learned the art of political foresight. India handed over the Security council permanent membership on platter to China. India lost the opportunity of when Gwadar port in Pakistan was offered to her by Sultanate of Oman in 1947. India lost opportunity to solve Kashmir issue time and again. Mrs Gandhi was considered to be the wisest of all in dealing with adversaries. Even she was fooled by Zulfikar Ali Bhutto while signing Shmila agreement. We remain as stupid as we were 1000 years back. Only good thing which has happened to India is her democracy, else our rulers would have sold us many time over without us even knowing.

Our Late great Shayar Muzaffar Razmi rightly wrote;

Taareekh ka zabr bhi dekha hai in aankhon ne
lamhon ne khata ki, shadiyon ne saza payee.

RK^2

very aptly said by RK , & equally ended with the quote ...

DrRajpalSingh
May 17th, 2013, 07:41 PM
It is not all truth to say that the Indians had always lacked political sagacity or foresight.

For example, the chance meeting between Kautilya and Chandragupta Maurya led to historic results

of end of the foreign occupation of the country left behind by the Greek Alexander and

the foundation of the great Maurya dynasty which gave ever greatest emperor, Asoka, the Great.

DrRajpalSingh
May 17th, 2013, 10:28 PM
The concept of Welfare State is considered to be a modern gift of the western political thought.

But India can rightly feel proud to announce that a chance meeting after the Kalinga battle between

Emperor Asoka and the Buddhist sermon Mougaliputta Tissya led the former to the path of adoption

of the path of piety and universal love. Asoka started to open Hospitals for men and animals, constructed

roads, planted trees on important national highways and established shrines for the benefit of travellers,

took up digging out wells and canals.

Thus the chance meeting between the two led to far reaching consequences and made Asoka for what he

is remembered, one of the ever greatest emperors of the world.

rekhasmriti
May 18th, 2013, 12:13 AM
I m not sure if this can be part of same or not . One of my favorite : In Mahabharat when Pandav and Kauravs were approaching different rulers for their Support . Both Duryodhan and Arjuna approached Krishna for his Support . Incident was like this :
Duryodhan went to Krishna first but watching him sleep he did not wake him up sat there waiting for him to get up . Meanwhile Arjuna reached there , when Krishna woke up he saw Arjuna first and gave him his word . Later Duryodhan said I was here before waiting for you to get up . Then Krishna played the trick : Either ME or my whole ARMY .
Duryodhan ( self proclaimed smart ) picked his army . And let Krishna go .

As we all know ----Pandavs won only coz they had Krishna on their side . At every step Krishna played some trick and Pandavs kept winning .

If Kauravs would have won instead of Pandavs------unimaginable twists n turns in mythology and India history .

rkumar
May 18th, 2013, 05:09 PM
It is not all truth to say that the Indians had always lacked political sagacity or foresight.

For example, the chance meeting between Kautilya and Chandragupta Maurya led to historic results

of end of the foreign occupation of the country left behind by the Greek Alexander and

the foundation of the great Maurya dynasty which gave ever greatest emperor, Asoka, the Great.

Such incidents are very few in entire Indian history. Contrary to that the blunders are far too many. If one writes a book on " Blunders in Indian History", it will run in several volumes. battle of Panipat between marathas and Abdali sums it all. Never in the history of warfare one has heard of any army taking the women folks to the battle field. Loss in that battle changed the fate of India for ever. If one looks at warfare technology, nothing worth was invented in India during last 1000 years and this remains so even today.

RK^2

DrRajpalSingh
May 18th, 2013, 09:45 PM
Such incidents are very few in entire Indian history. Contrary to that the blunders are far too many. If one writes a book on " Blunders in Indian History", it will run in several volumes........................................... .................................................. .................................................. ...................................
..............................................

RK^2

Thanks for sharing some significant events.

The justification for starting this thread is that

there are so many such incidents that may be

shared by all of us..

DrRajpalSingh
May 18th, 2013, 10:07 PM
When the Indian forces led by Hemu [Hemachandra Vikramaditya]

in the battle ground of Panipat against the Mughal forces led by

Bairam Khan/Akbar were well poised for a victory, perchance an

enemy arrow pierced Hemu's eye and head and this resulted in

re-founding of the Mughal ruling dynasty in 1556 AD.

DrRajpalSingh
May 19th, 2013, 10:07 AM
Humayun wasted the God sent opportunity to cultivate the Rajput-Mughal alliance by not accepting the Rakhi sent by Maharani Karanavati, who had requested him to accept her as his sister and extend protection against Bahadur Shah of Gujarat who had invaded Mewar. The Mughal emperor at first advanced towards Rajasthan from Agra but did not go beyond Bayana. Actually,on learning about this move of Humayun, Bahadur Shah retired back to his realms but the former lost confidence of both the Rajputs and the Gujarat ruler. Ultimately, he was divested of his ruling rights by Shershah Suri and had to run from pillar to post for several years in wilderness in foreign lands. Had he accepted the alliance of the Rajputs of Sisodia clan, perhaps, the history of India might have been not what it is today. Humayun not Akbar would have been designated as the National king among the Mughals.

DrRajpalSingh
May 19th, 2013, 04:36 PM
In 1760 when Ahmad Shah Abdali invaded India, Maharaja Surajmal of Bharatpur, joined the Anti Abdali alliance under the leadership of the Maratha General Sadashivrao Bhau, the younger brother of the Peshwa who was accompanied by Malhar Rao Holkar and Jaippya Sindhia. In the war council meeting of these four held near Mathura, the Jat King suggested to adopt Gurriela Warfare, instead of pitched battle against the enemy, send ladies and elderly Maratha soldiers/leaders to one of the strongly fortified Jat forts--Weir, Kumher, Deeg or Bharatpur-- and broadbase the alliance forces by invited Shujjaudaullah of Avadha and other friendly rulers from Rajasthan. Holker and Sindhia seconded his good suggestion and requested him to undertake to keep the safety of the supply and communication line from Delhi side secure.

At this moment the haughty Maratha retorted angrily and outrightly rejecting the suggestion of the seasoned generals of the times said: it seems all of you undermine my leadership qualities and prowess of the Maratha army perhaps, because you seem to be afraid of the power of the Afghan invader. Maharaja Surajmal's sound suggestion he termed as a simpleton zamindar's talk.

This was the moment of far reaching impact on the flow of history of India when, the seasoned three-some were stunned at his haughty remarks and foresaw the imminent doom in the upcoming battle under the immature Bhau's leadership.

And their calculation proved true on January 14, 1761.

dndeswal
May 19th, 2013, 05:29 PM
.

पता नहीं यह कहानी सच है या नहीं, पर कुछ बड़ों के मुंह से सुनी है। बादशाह अकबर ने एक बार बीरबल को प्रस्ताव रखा कि मैं हिन्दू धर्म अपनाना चाहता हूं। बीरबल इस मामले में कट्टर (हिन्दू) निकला क्योंकि वह पौराणिक ब्राह्मण था। उसने कहा कि आप हिन्दू कैसे बन सकते हैं। अकबर ने कहा कि आप जैसा भी क्रिया-कर्म करवाना चाहें, मैं कर लूंगा - गंगा-स्नान, हवन आदि करके।

बीरबल ने कहा कि ठीक है आप एक दिन सुबह-सवेरे गंगा के किनारे आ जाना। मैं स्नान आदि करवा कर और दूसरे संस्कार करवा कर आपके लिए धर्म-परिवर्तन की रस्में पूरी करवा दूंगा।

अकबर जब गंगा किनारे पहुंचा तो देखा कि बीरबल एक गधी को नहला रहा है। अकबर के पूछने पर उसने बताया - जहांपनाह, मैं इस गधी को गाय बनाना चाहता हूं। अकबर बोला कि इस नदी में नहलाने से भला एक गधी गाय कैसे बन सकती है? बीरबल बोला - बादशाह, इसी तरह एक मुसलमान भी गंगा में नहा कर हिन्दू नहीं बन सकता!

यह सुन कर अकबर पर बिजली का करंट सा लगा। उसे लगा कि हिन्दू तो मुसलमानों से भी ज्यादा कट्टर होते हैं, सो उसने धर्म-परिवर्तन का विचार त्याग दिया।

अगर बीरबल यह ऐतिहासिक भूल नहीं करता और अकबर को हिन्दू-धर्म में दीक्षा दिलवा देता तो आज का इतिहास कुछ और ही होता।

.

krishdel
May 19th, 2013, 05:45 PM
Dear JAT Freinds,
Why we feel guilty about Maratrha Said, Whether it was Maratha or Afghan Ruler both were targetting the money of Delhi Darbar and even Maratha after Shivaji never cared for any relegion, Maratha were as equal as Afghans or You can say worse than Afghanis, we forgot that the Dharam Ki Nagari Mathura was saved by JATS and that time nearly 25000 thousand JAT soldiers sacrificied their lives to Save the Mandirs of Mathura & Vrindavan. We should be proud of it. And we should spread this fact in each and every corner of India.

Regards
Krishan Lakra

krishdel
May 19th, 2013, 05:49 PM
Dear Rajpal Ji,
Rajput never cared for public , they only believed in treaty and never won any war against any of the foreign invaders, they never fought any war to save the relegion, they only believed in supressing the public they ruled and raping the minor girls.

DrRajpalSingh
May 19th, 2013, 07:04 PM
Dear Rajpal Ji,
Rajput never cared for public , they only believed in treaty and never won any war against any of the foreign invaders, they never fought any war to save the relegion, they only believed in supressing the public they ruled and raping the minor girls.

You must read history of Prithviraj Chahman of Ajmer and Delhi, Rana Sanga, Maharana Udai Singh, Maharana Pratap of Mewar and Ajit Singh and Durgas Rathor of Jodhpur to make your perception clear about the Rajput contribution to history of India.

DrRajpalSingh
May 19th, 2013, 07:21 PM
Dear JAT Freinds,
Why we feel guilty about Maratrha Said, Whether it was Maratha or Afghan Ruler both were targetting the money of Delhi Darbar and even Maratha after Shivaji never cared for any relegion, Maratha were as equal as Afghans or You can say worse than Afghanis, we forgot that the Dharam Ki Nagari Mathura was saved by JATS and that time nearly 25000 thousand JAT soldiers sacrificied their lives to Save the Mandirs of Mathura & Vrindavan. We should be proud of it. And we should spread this fact in each and every corner of India.

Regards
Krishan Lakra

The religion was used only to serve the political ends during those days. Therefore, the fight of the Jats against the Abdalis referred to by you was not only for protection of the temples but also to safe guard their political homogeneity over the Brij Pradesh. The Afghan control on that area could have led to destabilisation of the very foundation of the Bharatpur ruling dynastic control between the two imperial cities Delhi and Agra.

Kindly note that the Bharatpur rulers were not fanatic in their religious approach. Inspite of being Hindus, Maharaja Surajmal and Maharaja Jawahar Singh kept Muslims as their bodyguards and also that to commemorate the memory of Shamsher Bahadiur Khan, a son of Maratha general who had died at the hands of a Jat solder during Mughal-Maratha siege of Kumher in 1754, a Mosque was founded at Kumher.

Minor correction needed:

While describing the number of Jats [civilians and soldiers included], who sacrificed their lives in the fight, you have perhaps inadvertently erred, their number was around 25 thousand and not 25,000 thousand Jat Soldiers. And even after these big sacrifices, they could not save Mathura temples' desecration at the hands of the Afghans.

DrRajpalSingh
May 19th, 2013, 07:33 PM
Friends,

While narrating the events, episodes and incidents of the saga of sacrifice and feats of bravery we must try to be objective in our approach. The Jats have done significant in this field. This needs to be high-lighted but we must desist from pointing figures at other communities without assigning reasonable cause for the same. Instead of undermining other communities/castes role, kindly concentrate on bringing out the chequered history of the Jats as well as of other forces that contributed to make India proud of her sons and daughters.

History should not be twisted to create bad blood and bitterness among the Indians.

Thanks and regards.

DrRajpalSingh
May 21st, 2013, 08:24 AM
When Harshavardhana, a young boy around 16 years of age, was offered the crown, he was reluctant to accept it in view of the continued catastrophe that had befell on the vardhana ruling house ; the death of his father, his mother sacrificed herself as Sati on the pyre of his father, murder of his elder brother in Malwa, murder of his sister Rajyasri's husband. All these incidents had broken the heart of the young prince.

But on the assurance of Prime Minister Bhandi and the courtiers of all out cooperation and help in running the affairs of the statecraft, the moment young Harshavardhana agreed to be the ruler of Sthaneswar [Modern Kurukshetra] and again having agreed to stay at Kanauj at the request of her sister, changed the fortune of the small Vardhana ruling dynasty to find place in the pages of history as one of the most important imperialist dynasties in India during those days.

Rest is history.

DrRajpalSingh
May 30th, 2013, 11:01 PM
Prithviraj Chahaman succeeded in the first battle of Terrain in 1191 AD and made Mohd. Ghori to flee from the battle ground. But the moment he called his cavalry men back and let his go to Ghazni proved a fatal mistake resulting in Second Battle of Terrain and consequent defeat of the Indian forces at Ghori's hand. This was a big mistake of the king of Delhi and Ajmer and changed the course of history of India !

DrRajpalSingh
June 19th, 2013, 02:59 PM
In 1857, the first War of Indian Independence was waged by the Indians to bring to an end

the hegemony of the British East India Company. How strange that the Indian effort failed to

attain the goal but the British Parliament accomplished the task by taking India under the direct

control of the British Queen who was designated as the Empress of India who ruled over India by

appointing her Viceroy. Thus the rule of the British East India Company gave way to direct British

rule over India from 1858 to 1947.

swaich
June 19th, 2013, 10:57 PM
Dashratha's eldest son Rama was all set to take over in his hands the reign of Ayodhya from his father next morning.

But the moment Kaikayee demanded fulfillment of the word given by her husband, every plan shattered and instead of throne,

Rama had to move to Jungles for fourteen years.

Thus the momentary decision of his step mother changed the smooth flow of history.

Does the Kaikayee, Dashrath episode qualify as a historical event?

While the existence of a great king named Rama who fought a war with a foreign enemy is probably somewhat verifiable by historical sources, isn't the occurrence of events you quoted above, more mythology than history?

DrRajpalSingh
June 21st, 2013, 08:09 AM
Does the Kaikayee, Dashrath episode qualify as a historical event?

While the existence of a great king named Rama who fought a war with a foreign enemy is probably somewhat verifiable by historical sources, isn't the occurrence of events you quoted above, more mythology than history?


Friend,

The blend of myth and history is of course there in the Epics

but a discernible eye could easily make difference between the two.

The majority of the names of the cities/towns/places and persons

given in both the Epics have been historically identified. The name

Dasharatha, the father of Rama of Ayodhya mentioned in the Ramayana,

has been well settled as a historical figure.

swaich
June 21st, 2013, 11:36 PM
Friend,

The blend of myth and history is of course there in the Epics

but a discernible eye could easily make difference between the two.

The majority of the names of the cities/towns/places and persons

given in both the Epics have been historically identified. The name

Dasharatha, the father of Rama of Ayodhya mentioned in the Ramayana,

has been well settled as a historical figure.

Perhaps you didnt read carefully, I cannot dispute the presence of a king named Ram and his father Dashrath. But did this episode between Kaikayee and Dashrath really occur? Is there are a record for this incident?

DrRajpalSingh
June 22nd, 2013, 10:05 AM
Perhaps you didnt read carefully, I cannot dispute the presence of a king named Ram and his father Dashrath. But did this episode between Kaikayee and Dashrath really occur? Is there are a record for this incident?

It is to be noted that in the studies of history of remote past in the absence of contrary evidence, traditions, recorded in any form, are accepted provisionally as source of information of the particular event or person. As and when some other solid information like numismatics, archaeological remains, eyewitness record etc. is found the tradition is tested in comparison with the newer evidence and rejected to the extent it contradicts the former.

As regards the incident recorded in the Ramayana regarding fulfillment of earlier commitment made by Dashratha to his beloved queen Kaikaiyee for having saved the King's life during the course of war against enemy and subsequent events leading to banishment of Rama to exile for fourteen years show, the tradition assumes historical significance.

Though no contrary evidence, perhaps, has been brought to notice so far by anyone yet it is open to suspicion in the eyes of some historians.!!

swaich
June 22nd, 2013, 12:01 PM
It is to be noted that in the studies of history of remote past in the absence of contrary evidence, traditions, recorded in any form, are accepted provisionally as source of information of the particular event or person. As and when some other solid information like numismatics, archaeological remains, eyewitness record etc. is found the tradition is tested in comparison with the newer evidence and rejected to the extent it contradicts the former.

As regards the incident recorded in the Ramayana regarding fulfillment of earlier commitment made by Dashratha to his beloved queen Kaikaiyee for having saved the King's life during the course of war against enemy and subsequent events leading to banishment of Rama to exile for fourteen years show, the tradition assumes historical significance.

Though no contrary evidence, perhaps, has been brought to notice so far by anyone yet it is open to suspicion in the eyes of some historians.!!

If I understand this right, untill a solid proof - numismatics, archaelogical remains and eyewitness accounts, contradicting oral tradition is not found, oral traditions are accepted as fact. Right?

DrRajpalSingh
June 22nd, 2013, 12:22 PM
If I understand this right, untill a solid proof - numismatics, archaelogical remains and eyewitness accounts, contradicting oral tradition is not found, oral traditions are accepted as fact. Right?

Not absolute facts but tentative ones !

DrRajpalSingh
September 29th, 2013, 09:54 AM
The declaration by the British that they would go back freeing India preponing the earlier announced date of before June 1948 to 1947 created ripples in the political circles across the globe.

In India leaders of all political parties lost control over the ever fast changing political equations and became helpless before the torrent of incidents/events that followed this declaration.

This declaration changed the face of the history and geography of India, which within a few months of declaration stood partitioned into East Pakistan [now Bangladesh], West Pakistan [now Pakistan] and remnant region India.

maddhan1979
September 29th, 2013, 10:11 AM
Friend,

The blend of myth and history is of course there in the Epics

but a discernible eye could easily make difference between the two.

The majority of the names of the cities/towns/places and persons

given in both the Epics have been historically identified. The name

Dasharatha, the father of Rama of Ayodhya mentioned in the Ramayana,

has been well settled as a historical figure.


Dr. Rajpal, a few points to consider. Agreed that Ramayana, happened at some point of history in India and this has been told by mythological and religious account.

Now the main points are:

1. Ramayana predated Mahabharata. There are no artifacts that have been archaeologically dug, scientifically dated that can be related to kings or stories of Mahabharata and if there are so, please tell their location. So, talking about Ramayana takes even a much back stage due to it is older then Mahabharata.

2. Okey, agreed that cities, towns, places, etc. have the same names, but the fact remains at what time did these cities get this name in history? According to some authors Mahabharata occured between 1800BC and 2500BC, so that means, Ramayana is older than 2500BC. So, where is the proof that the cities were called with same names in such an ancient period.


.

DrRajpalSingh
September 29th, 2013, 01:53 PM
Dr. Rajpal, a few points to consider. Agreed that Ramayana, happened at some point of history in India and this has been told by mythological and religious account.

Now the main points are:

1. Ramayana predated Mahabharata. There are no artifacts that have been archaeologically dug, scientifically dated that can be related to kings or stories of Mahabharata and if there are so, please tell their location. So, talking about Ramayana takes even a much back stage due to it is older then Mahabharata.

2. Okey, agreed that cities, towns, places, etc. have the same names, but the fact remains at what time did these cities get this name in history? According to some authors Mahabharata occured between 1800BC and 2500BC, so that means, Ramayana is older than 2500BC. So, where is the proof that the cities were called with same names in such an ancient period.


.

Friend,

Like so many other scholars you have also raised valid questions which seek logical answers. The same is the purpose of the debate started by me by initiating this thread.

In fact this is the accepted method of research to start a debate and then get as many points of view explored as possible to reach nearer truth of the historical truth.

Then what where and when did the events described in the Ramayana happen or did they not happen at all.

Kindly share your study please.


Thanks

maddhan1979
September 29th, 2013, 04:31 PM
Friend,

Like so many other scholars you have also raised valid questions which seek logical answers. The same is the purpose of the debate started by me by initiating this thread.

In fact this is the accepted method of research to start a debate and then get as many points of view explored as possible to reach nearer truth of the historical truth.

Then what where and when did the events described in the Ramayana happen or did they not happen at all.

Kindly share your study please.


Thanks

There is no point in just talking blah blah about ancient past, until and unless some archaeologists start digging and take out relevant artifacts and remains of the sites of these stories and events.

urmiladuhan
September 29th, 2013, 05:00 PM
Dr. Rajpal, a few points to consider. Agreed that Ramayana, happened at some point of history in India and this has been told by mythological and religious account.

Now the main points are:

1. Ramayana predated Mahabharata. There are no artifacts that have been archaeologically dug, scientifically dated that can be related to kings or stories of Mahabharata and if there are so, please tell their location. So, talking about Ramayana takes even a much back stage due to it is older then Mahabharata.

2. Okey, agreed that cities, towns, places, etc. have the same names, but the fact remains at what time did these cities get this name in history? According to some authors Mahabharata occured between 1800BC and 2500BC, so that means, Ramayana is older than 2500BC. So, where is the proof that the cities were called with same names in such an ancient period.


.

The closer they are to today's identifiable city names, more are the chances that the epic names may not be so ancient as some believe.

DrRajpalSingh
September 30th, 2013, 09:07 PM
The closer they are to today's identifiable city names, more are the chances that the epic names may not be so ancient as some believe.

Perhaps they existed when the Epics were authored, not vice versa !