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DrRajpalSingh
June 4th, 2013, 10:06 AM
In this thread we shall try to identify and enlist names of those tribes which find mention in the ancient literature prior to the composition of the Epics: Ramayana and Mahabharata..

As we go through the pages of Vedic literature several names of persons Royal or Risi also appear on whose names later on several gotra or sub caste names of Indian castes seem to have developed. At times, the name of a particular Risi appears representing gotra/sub caste/clan name of numerous castes of today. This is a perplexing phenomenon, not understandable to an un-attentive reader of evolvement of Indian social structure and hierarchy.

It is hoped that participants would contribute their reasoned views on this aspect of our past social evolution and its impacts on the course of history of India.

DrRajpalSingh
June 5th, 2013, 08:19 PM
1.

'Puru' Tribe and their king find mention in Rig Veda [I.108.8; vii.18.23; vii. 8.4 and so on]. According to Macdonell and Keith, the victories of the Purus over the aborigines seem to be referred to in several passages of Rig Veda, The great kings of the Purus were Purukutsa and his son Trasadasyu, whose name bears testimony to his prowess against aboriginal foes, while a later prince was Trksi Trasadasyava. Trisdasyava, the patronymic of Kurusravana in Rigaveda [X.33.4], shows that the royal families of teh Kurus and the Purus were allied by inter-marriage. [ cited from Vedic Index of Names and places, pp. 11-12]

DrRajpalSingh
June 12th, 2013, 10:13 PM
1.

'Puru' Tribe and their king find mention in Rig Veda [I.108.8; vii.18.23; vii. 8.4 and so on]. According to Macdonell and Keith, the victories of the Purus over the aborigines seem to be referred to in several passages of Rig Veda, The great kings of the Purus were Purukutsa and his son Trasadasyu, whose name bears testimony to his prowess against aboriginal foes, while a later prince was Trksi Trasadasyava. Trisdasyava, the patronymic of Kurusravana in Rigaveda [X.33.4], shows that the royal families of teh Kurus and the Purus were allied by inter-marriage. [ cited from Vedic Index of Names and places, pp. 11-12]

However, they are mentioned as enemies of the Tristsus in the hymn of Sudas victory [RV 18.13]; and in hymn [RV. VII. 8.4] of the Bharatas is celebrated as victories over the Purus probably a reference to the decisive overthrow.

Regarding their earliest home there is difference of opinion among the historians. Zimmer of the view that they lived on the banks of Sindhu river and MacDonell and Keith are of the view that they are referred to be living in indian Sarasvati region. However, in c.326-325 BCE, two Paurarva Princes were met by the Greek Invader, Alexander at the Hydepasses as recorded by Arrian.

Thus their original place of living was whether in the region beyond Indus or Sarasvati Region is a matter of dispute.

Views of the readers are solicited.

DrRajpalSingh
June 18th, 2013, 05:37 PM
According to Macdonell and Keith, "Yadu is the name of a tribe and of the king of the tribe.

They are mentioned repeatedly in the Rigveda, normally in conjunction with Turvasa.

They seem to have taken part in the great battle against Sudas: the Yadu and Turvasa kings

seem to have escaped with their lives, while the Anu and the Druhyu kings perished.''

{For References from Rigveda, kindly see, Vedic Index of names and subjects, Vol. II, p. 185}.

DrRajpalSingh
June 30th, 2013, 08:10 AM
3,

The Bharatas, who gave their name to the whole country, are one of the prominent Rigvedic Tribes.

They appear prominently in the Rigveda in relationship with Sudas and the Tristsus, and are enemies

of the Purus. They are mentioned as warriors who carried out successful campaigns both against

the Aryans on the west and the non-Aryans in East.

DrRajpalSingh
July 10th, 2013, 06:34 PM
Das, Dasyu, Danava, Arya and Anarya-- these four words appear frequently in the ancient literature of India and some of these words find place at a few places in Iranian literature too. It would be interesting to know their real meaning to exactly understand the ancient social structure and tribes of India. Could somebody throw some light on their meaning !!!!

dndeswal
July 10th, 2013, 08:44 PM
.

Maharishi Dayanand defines the two words as under. If we go by this definition, Arya and Dasyu were not a caste but a category of persons having some traits.

४० आर्य्य
जो श्रेष्*ठ स्वभाव, धर्मात्मा, परोपकारी, सत्यविद्यादि गुणयुक्त और आर्य्यावर्त्त देश में सब दिन से रहने वाले हैं, उनको 'आर्य्य' कहते हैं ।


४२ दस्यु
अनार्य अर्थात् जो अनाड़ी, आर्य्यों के स्वभाव और निवास से पृथक् डाकू, चोर, हिंसक कि जो दुष्*ट मनुष्य है, वह 'दस्यु' कहाता है ।

आर्य्योद्देश्यरत्*नमाला (महर्षि दयानन्द सरस्वती द्वारा रचित लघुग्रंथ) (http://www.jatland.com/home/%E0%A4%86%E0%A4%B0%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AF%E0%A5%8D%E0%A 4%AF%E0%A5%8B%E0%A4%A6%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A6%E0%A5%87% E0%A4%B6%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5 %8D%E2%80%8D%E0%A4%A8%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%B2%E 0%A4%BE_%28%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%B9%E0%A4%B0%E0%A5%8D%E0 %A4%B7%E0%A4%BF_%E0%A4%A6%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4% A8%E0%A4%A8%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A6_%E0%A4%B8%E0%A4%B0%E 0%A4%B8%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B5%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%80_%E0%A4 %A6%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B5%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%BE_% E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%9A%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%A4_%E0%A4%B2%E0%A 4%98%E0%A5%81%E0%A4%97%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%82% E0%A4%A5%29)

.

maddhan1979
July 10th, 2013, 10:04 PM
According to Macdonell and Keith, "Yadu is the name of a tribe and of the king of the tribe.

They are mentioned repeatedly in the Rigveda, normally in conjunction with Turvasa.

They seem to have taken part in the great battle against Sudas: the Yadu and Turvasa kings

seem to have escaped with their lives, while the Anu and the Druhyu kings perished.''

{For References from Rigveda, kindly see, Vedic Index of names and subjects, Vol. II, p. 185}.


How old is the written form of "Veda" present today?
I hope u do not tell me that it was work of "Gods" and "Gods wrote it".
how many kings have ruled after the "oldest form of Veda" present today, was written?
How many priests have read it and rewritten it?
How many of the writers and re writers of these Vedas and similar books were driven by greed, self appraisal and false information.
I am not doubting the folk lore written in "Vedas", but the main point is: Through out ages any book written by a single human or group of humans has been transformed from its original form by the people who inherited these books, whosoever that be, where ever they were in the world. So, it becomes very precarious to believe the old texts.
What can be believed are the physical facts, which verify facts in present day scenario, this can bring people out of darkness.

narenderkharb
July 10th, 2013, 10:17 PM
Das, Dasyu, Danava, Arya and Anarya-- these four words appear frequently in the ancient literature of India and some of these words find place at a few places in Iranian literature too. It would be interesting to know their real meaning to exactly understand the ancient social structure and tribes of India. Could somebody throw some light on their meaning !!!!

Your take???

DrRajpalSingh
July 11th, 2013, 09:47 AM
.

Maharishi Dayanand defines the two words as under. If we go by this definition, Arya and Dasyu were not a caste but a category of persons having some traits.

४० आर्य्य
जो श्रेष्*ठ स्वभाव, धर्मात्मा, परोपकारी, सत्यविद्यादि गुणयुक्त और आर्य्यावर्त्त देश में सब दिन से रहने वाले हैं, उनको 'आर्य्य' कहते हैं ।


४२ दस्यु
अनार्य अर्थात् जो अनाड़ी, आर्य्यों के स्वभाव और निवास से पृथक् डाकू, चोर, हिंसक कि जो दुष्*ट मनुष्य है, वह 'दस्यु' कहाता है ।

आर्य्योद्देश्यरत्*नमाला (महर्षि दयानन्द सरस्वती द्वारा रचित लघुग्रंथ) (http://www.jatland.com/home/%E0%A4%86%E0%A4%B0%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AF%E0%A5%8D%E0%A 4%AF%E0%A5%8B%E0%A4%A6%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A6%E0%A5%87% E0%A4%B6%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5 %8D%E2%80%8D%E0%A4%A8%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%B2%E 0%A4%BE_%28%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%B9%E0%A4%B0%E0%A5%8D%E0 %A4%B7%E0%A4%BF_%E0%A4%A6%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4% A8%E0%A4%A8%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A6_%E0%A4%B8%E0%A4%B0%E 0%A4%B8%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B5%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%80_%E0%A4 %A6%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B5%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%BE_% E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%9A%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%A4_%E0%A4%B2%E0%A 4%98%E0%A5%81%E0%A4%97%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%82% E0%A4%A5%29)

.

This is a good definition given by Swamiji in the context of nineteenth century meaning of the two terms when there was evident differentiation between the ways of life and beliefs of Aryans and non-Aryans. Therefore it seems that contemporary scenario has coloured the meaning of the ancient words, which might have carried other meanings and connotations too than the meanings shown here.

If it were so ! Were the words Arya and Anarya used to convey the meaning of different tribes or not in the ancient times and were these two members of the same tribe having beliefs in the same gods or deities and did they really lived away apart from each other or together in the days when the old literature was composed ! These were the questions which haunted my mind when I put the post under discussion.

More inputs invited please to solve the puzzle of meaning of these terms Arya-Anarya, Arya-Das-Danava-Dashyu as used in the old literature.

Thanks

DrRajpalSingh
July 11th, 2013, 09:54 AM
Your take???

I am in the process of learning from literature and discussion with scholars; hence no personal 'take' as of now.

prashantacmet
July 11th, 2013, 10:03 AM
.

Maharishi Dayanand defines the two words as under. If we go by this definition, Arya and Dasyu were not a caste but a category of persons having some traits.

४० आर्य्य
जो श्रेष्*ठ स्वभाव, धर्मात्मा, परोपकारी, सत्यविद्यादि गुणयुक्त और आर्य्यावर्त्त देश में सब दिन से रहने वाले हैं, उनको 'आर्य्य' कहते हैं ।


४२ दस्यु
अनार्य अर्थात् जो अनाड़ी, आर्य्यों के स्वभाव और निवास से पृथक् डाकू, चोर, हिंसक कि जो दुष्*ट मनुष्य है, वह 'दस्यु' कहाता है ।

आर्य्योद्देश्यरत्*नमाला (महर्षि दयानन्द सरस्वती द्वारा रचित लघुग्रंथ) (http://www.jatland.com/home/%E0%A4%86%E0%A4%B0%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AF%E0%A5%8D%E0%A 4%AF%E0%A5%8B%E0%A4%A6%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A6%E0%A5%87% E0%A4%B6%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5 %8D%E2%80%8D%E0%A4%A8%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%B2%E 0%A4%BE_%28%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%B9%E0%A4%B0%E0%A5%8D%E0 %A4%B7%E0%A4%BF_%E0%A4%A6%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4% A8%E0%A4%A8%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A6_%E0%A4%B8%E0%A4%B0%E 0%A4%B8%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B5%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%80_%E0%A4 %A6%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B5%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%BE_% E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%9A%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%A4_%E0%A4%B2%E0%A 4%98%E0%A5%81%E0%A4%97%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%82% E0%A4%A5%29)

.

as per swami ji definition for arya ..mujhe yeh samajh nahi aaya ki ek desh(aryavart) main rahne waale sabhi log itne achee kaise ho sakte hai( dharmatma, paropkari etc).........mujhe lagta hai swami ji ne vedo ka translation kuch jyada hi generalize kar rakha ahi...

prashantacmet
July 11th, 2013, 10:08 AM
If anyone is willing to search historical facts from vedas...don't go for swami ji translation...kuch jyada hi "arya waadi" hain unka translation..........i see lot of difference in his translation and other scholars translations...........

DrRajpalSingh
July 11th, 2013, 11:12 PM
Das, Dasyu, Danava, Arya and Anarya-- these four words appear frequently in the ancient literature of India and some of these words find place at a few places in Iranian literature too. It would be interesting to know their real meaning to exactly understand the ancient social structure and tribes of India. Could somebody throw some light on their meaning !!!!

It is learnt from Rig Veda [1.51.5] that Dasas or Dasyus, the dark skinned persons, were the enemies of Indra !

But who these dark-skinned Dasas or Dasyus were is not fully clarified.

The word dasyu is reported to be occurring in the form of dainyu and dapyu in the Avesta and in that of dahyu in the inscriptions of the Achaemenian kings.

{ Note: The meaning or connotation of the word Dahyu would be taken up separately later on}.

The Avestan word dasyu or its variant dasa does not connote a people ethnically different from the so-called Aryans. This is ascertainable from the study of Rig Veda that Agni is called the grandson of Tvastr and Indra is known as his son. In this way Indra and Vrtra is expressly called a Dasyu. When Indra was moving in pursuit of Vrtra, he addressed Agni and Soma, "Ye belong to me and I belong to you. Why do ye support that Dasyu against me? Come over to me." {Julius Eggling, Sacred Books of the East, Vo. XII, p. 166}.

In this way Vrtra is Dasyu. Indra is the brother of Vrtra, both being the sons of Tvastr.

Buddha Prakash very candidly sums up the issue by saying that from this point of view , Indra is also Dasyu. Agni and Indra are admittedly Aryas. Hence, there is no ethnic difference between a Dasyu and an Arya. he goes on to quote a verse of the Rig Veda (X.49. 3 ) Indra is made to state that he had deprived the Dasyus of their appellation of Arya: "As Susna's slayer I brandished the dart of death : I gave up not the Arya name to Dasyu foes."

The above discussion shows that there was no ethnic distinction between the Arya and the Dasa at the initial stage.

Views of participants are welcome.

Thanks and regards.

deependra
July 12th, 2013, 12:22 AM
If anyone is willing to search historical facts from vedas...don't go for swami ji translation...kuch jyada hi "arya waadi" hain unka translation..........i see lot of difference in his translation and other scholars translations...........
Thanks Prashant, who can we refer to if interested in reading Vedas?

narenderkharb
July 12th, 2013, 06:26 AM
It is learnt from Rig Veda [1.51.5] that Dasas or Dasyus, the dark skinned persons, were the enemies of Indra !

But who these dark-skinned Dasas or Dasyus were is not fully clarified.

The word dasyu is reported to be occurring in the form of dainyu and dapyu in the Avesta and in that of dahyu in the inscriptions of the Achaemenian kings.

{ Note: The meaning or connotation of the word Dahyu would be taken up separately later on}.

The Avestan word dasyu or its variant dasa does not connote a people ethnically different from the so-called Aryans. This is ascertainable from the study of Rig Veda that Agni is called the grandson of Tvastr and Indra is known as his son. In this way Indra and Vrtra is expressly called a Dasyu. When Indra was moving in pursuit of Vrtra, he addressed Agni and Soma, "Ye belong to me and I belong to you. Why do ye support that Dasyu against me? Come over to me." {Julius Eggling, Sacred Books of the East, Vo. XII, p. 166}.

In this way Vrtra is Dasyu. Indra is the brother of Vrtra, both being the sons of Tvastr.

Buddha Prakash very candidly sums up the issue by saying that from this point of view , Indra is also Dasyu. Agni and Indra are admittedly Aryas. Hence, there is no ethnic difference between a Dasyu and an Arya. he goes on to quote a verse of the Rig Veda (X.49. 3 ) Indra is made to state that he had deprived the Dasyus of their appellation of Arya: "As Susna's slayer I brandished the dart of death : I gave up not the Arya name to Dasyu foes."

The above discussion shows that there was no ethnic distinction between the Arya and the Dasa at the initial stage.

Views of participants are welcome.

Thanks and regards.



And your take ???


Are you in complete agreement with Buddha Parkash view on various Vedic tribes ?

narenderkharb
July 12th, 2013, 06:55 AM
It is learnt from Rig Veda [1.51.5] that Dasas or Dasyus, the dark skinned persons, were the enemies of Indra !

But who these dark-skinned Dasas or Dasyus were is not fully clarified.

The word dasyu is reported to be occurring in the form of dainyu and dapyu in the Avesta and in that of dahyu in the inscriptions of the Achaemenian kings.

{ Note: The meaning or connotation of the word Dahyu would be taken up separately later on}.

The above discussion shows that there was no ethnic distinction between the Arya and the Dasa at the initial stage.

Views of participants are welcome.

Thanks and regards.


It will be interesting to understand the relation of Dasyu /Dainyu/Dapyu in rigvedic and avestan literature.These terms have been used interchangeably for the same people ...However Dapyu at the same time could be understood as Davyu that takes it closer to devas (v in Rigvedic literature changes to P in Avestan as Asva to Aspa) and that means Daivyu(Sanskrit) is equivalent Daipyu(avestan)which in turn relate with Dasyu...
So ..Does that mean Deva Dasyu are just the same people who settled in different areas and developed linguistic differences over the years?

We can discuss this but first let us understand the meaning and connotation of word Dasyu.

DrRajpalSingh
July 12th, 2013, 07:45 AM
And your take ???


Are you in complete agreement with Buddha Parkash view on various Vedic tribes ?

Friend,

As of now, I have concentrated my attention to understand the meaning of the word Dasa/Dasyu with the help of Rig vedic and Avestan quotes and in the process quoted Buddha Prakash. Therefore, the question of my agreeing or disagreeing with Buddha Prakash's views on various Vedic tribes is not relevant.

Let us wait as it would come out as the discussion proceeds further whether I agree or not to his all findings on the Tribes !

I am of the opinion that ''there was no ethnic distinction between the Arya and the Dasa at the initial stage.'' and both the words were used interchangeably to describe the same group of people.

The tinge of superiority and inferiority was associated with these two words [Arya and Dasyu/Dasa] in the later vedic and puranic times.

Thanks

narenderkharb
July 12th, 2013, 08:18 AM
Let us wait as it would come out as the discussion proceeds further whether I agree or not to his all findings on the Tribes !

I am of the opinion that ''there was no ethnic distinction between the Arya and the Dasa at the initial stage.'' and both the words were used interchangeably to describe the same group of people.

The tinge of superiority and inferiority was associated with these two words [Arya and Dasyu/Dasa] in the later vedic and puranic times.

Thanks


I have slightly different view here but let the discussion proceed as you wrote above.

DrRajpalSingh
July 12th, 2013, 09:19 AM
I have slightly different view here but let the discussion proceed as you wrote above.

So far as the uses of the words 'Arya' and 'Dasyu' are concerned, they are used in the ethnic sense in the Rigveda. But in post Rig vedic literature which had been composed after the Aryans had arrived in India, the use of the word meaning of 'Arya' changed to denote 'Master.'

According to Panini (III.1.103) 'Arya' means swami i.e. 'master' as well as 'vaisya'. So when Arya is not used in the sense of 'Vaisya', it denotes the first three varanas i.e. Brahmin, Kshatriya and Vaishya--not because they are Aryan in blood, but because they are 'masters', that is to say, 'freemen', and not slaves.

Thanks.

DrRajpalSingh
July 12th, 2013, 09:33 AM
So far as the uses of the words 'Arya' and 'Dasyu' are concerned, they are used in the ethnic sense in the Rigveda. But in post Rig vedic literature which had been composed after the Aryans had arrived in India, the use of the word meaning of 'Arya' changed to denote 'Master.'

According to Panini (III.1.103) 'Arya' means swami i.e. 'master' as well as 'vaisya'. So when Arya is not used in the sense of 'Vaisya', it denotes the first three varanas i.e. Brahmin, Kshatriya and Vaishya--not because they are Aryan in blood, but because they are 'masters', that is to say, 'freemen', and not slaves.

Thanks.

contd. from the last post....

By the time Kautilya authored his book, the meaning of the term Arya and the term Sudra had altogether changed from the initial meaning and had lost attachment to any ethnic significance.

This is evident from the following passages of Kautilya's Arthsastra wherein even a Sudra Freeman is classed as an 'Arya' :

''The selling or mortgaging by kinsmen of the life of a Sudra, who is not a born slave, and has not attained majority, but is an Arya in birth, shall be punished, with a fine of 12 panas; of a Vaisya, 24 panas; of a Kshatriya, 36 panas; and of a Brahman, 48 panas. ''
It is also stated by Kautilya that ''Deceiving a slave of his money or depriving him of the privileges he can exercise as an Arya [Aryabhava] shall be punished with half the fine [levied for enslaving the life of an Arya.''

''The offspring of a man who has sold himself as a slave shall be an Arya. A slave shall be entitled to enjoy not only whatever he has earned without prejudice to his master's work, but also the inheritance he has received from his father.''

''On paying the value a slave shall regain his Aryahood. The same shall apply either to born or pledged slaves.'' Kautilya, [I]Arthasastra, English Tr. pp. 230-32.

Of course, this post contains what Panini and Kautilya shed light on the use of the word Arya and the word Dasa; but the initial stage puzzle remains to be solved. Therefore,
the learned participants are requested to comment on the use of the words as made in Rig Veda and Avesta for the people residing in olden times Aryavarata, as we have not been able to lay our hands on the needed data for the same.

Thanks

DrRajpalSingh
July 12th, 2013, 09:35 AM
I have slightly different view here but let the discussion proceed as you wrote above.

Kindly share your candid opinion on the issue, please !

Thanks.

narenderkharb
July 12th, 2013, 10:22 AM
Kindly share your candid opinion on the issue, please !

Thanks.



I differed with your opinion expressed in post 18 that there was no distinction ethnically between Arya and Dasa in initial stage .

Since we are going take meaning and connotation of word Dasyu we can elaborate it later on.

DrRajpalSingh
July 14th, 2013, 10:12 AM
How old is the written form of "Veda" present today?
I hope u do not tell me that it was work of "Gods" and "Gods wrote it".
how many kings have ruled after the "oldest form of Veda" present today, was written?
How many priests have read it and rewritten it?
How many of the writers and re writers of these Vedas and similar books were driven by greed, self appraisal and false information.
I am not doubting the folk lore written in "Vedas", but the main point is: Through out ages any book written by a single human or group of humans has been transformed from its original form by the people who inherited these books, whosoever that be, where ever they were in the world. So, it becomes very precarious to believe the old texts.
What can be believed are the physical facts, which verify facts in present day scenario, this can bring people out of darkness.

Good questions.

Since you want replies to your questions as per your choice as indicated in second line of your post,

it would be good if you could first share your answers by listing them taking one by one so that the issues raised by you

become understandable to others too !

DrRajpalSingh
July 17th, 2013, 09:26 AM
Friend,

As of now, I have concentrated my attention to understand the meaning of the word Dasa/Dasyu with the help of Rig vedic and Avestan quotes and in the process quoted Buddha Prakash. Therefore, the question of my agreeing or disagreeing with Buddha Prakash's views on various Vedic tribes is not relevant.

Let us wait as it would come out as the discussion proceeds further whether I agree or not to his all findings on the Tribes !

I am of the opinion that ''there was no ethnic distinction between the Arya and the Dasa at the initial stage.'' and both the words were used interchangeably to describe the same group of people.

The tinge of superiority and inferiority was associated with these two words [Arya and Dasyu/Dasa] in the later vedic and puranic times.

Thanks

Friends,

Elaborating the initial connotation of the word ''Dasyu or its variant dasa'' Dr. Buddha Prakash says that it "does not connote a people ethnically different from the so-called Aryans. this conclusion is fortified by the fact that in the Veda, Agni is called the grandson of Tvastr and Indra is known as his son. [see, A A Macdonnell, Vedic Mythology, pp.57, 116].'' He goes on to state that " Vrtra also is a son of Tvastr. Thus Indra and Vrtra are brothers. In the Satpatha Brahmana Vrtra is expressly called a Dasyu. When Indra was moving in pursuit of Vrtra, he addressed Agni and Soma, ''Ye belong to me and I belong to you. Why do ye support that Dasyu against me? Come over to me." Thus Vrtraa is Dassyu. Indra is brother of Vrtra, both being the sons of Tvastr. Therefore, from this point of view, Indra is also Dasyu."

If we accept this interpretation then there seems no ethnic distinction between the Arya and the Das or Dasyu as described in ancient Sanskrit literature. There seems no harm in accepting this point of view till contrary evidence emerges out of discussion on the issue.

Thanks.

DrRajpalSingh
July 20th, 2013, 07:37 PM
Now it is believed that Suras are gods and Asuras are demons or non gods.

But this distinction did not obtain in the early Vedic period. Originally the deities,

and especially Varuna and Mitra,were called Asuras, but in the later part of the

Rig veda the term is applied chiefly to the enemies of the gods. In the Atharvaveda,

as in subsequent Epic literature, the Asuras are simply demons and giants and goblins.

No conclusive explanation can be offered as to how this remarkable change took place in the course of the centuries embraced by the vedic period.

Comments of the readers are welcome !!

Thanks

DrRajpalSingh
July 20th, 2013, 08:01 PM
On the issue of change of meaning of the Sura and Asura as god and demon in later Vedic period, Donald A Mackenzie says that "it may have been primarily to sectarian strife between the religious teachers of those tribes which had been influenced by Babylonian modes of thought and those which clung tenaciously to the forms of primitive Aryan nature worship, and perhaps also worship of ancestors [Pitris]. In the old Persian language, which like Greek, places "h' before a vowel where "s" is used in Sanskrit, Ahura (=Asura) signifies ''god''.

The Zoroastrian chief god is called Ahura-Mazda, ''the wise Lord,'' as Varuna is addressed in early Rigvedic hymns, ''wise Asura and King'', and ''all knowing Asura who established the heavens and fixed the limits of the earth".

On the other hand ''daeva'' in the Iranian dialect, which is cognate with Sanskrit ''deva'',''god'', came to mean ''demon.''. ''Asura'' is derived from the root ''asu'', ''to shine'', or ''deiwo'', ''heavenly''.

On other explanations of the issue, your views are invited.

DrRajpalSingh
July 21st, 2013, 12:57 PM
On Sun-god, names of Aryan Tribal Chieftains and change of the 'S' into 'H' very interesting details are available in the Journal of Asiatic Society of Bengal, 1911, pp 44-45 which is being produced here from a quote from R.P.Chanda's The Indo Aryan Races, pp.29.30:

There are strong evidences to show that in the sixteenth and the fifteenth centuries B.C., in Syria and Upper Mesopotamia , there were several colonies of men of Aryan Speech, some of whom at least worshipped Vedic gods. In the cuneiform tablets discovered at Tell-el-Amarna in Upper Egypt containing letters from the tributary Kings of Western Asia to Egyptian Pharaohs we find such Aryan na,es of chieftains:
“Artamanya, chief of Ziribasani, probably about Basan; Bawarzana or Mawarzana [or perhaps Mayarzana], chief of Hazi, probably to the north of Palestine; Subandhu or Subandi, from Philistaea [cf. S. Subandhu]; Suwardata, the adversary of Abduhiba of Jerusalem, [cf. Svardatta]; Sutana or Suttarna, chief of Musihuma, ,probably in northern Palestine; Yasdata or Wasdata, probably from the neighbourhood of Megidda; Zirdamiasda, probably from Northern Palestine, and so forth.
The name of the Kassite sun-god Suriaspoints to a similar Aryan element to the east of Babylonia…..
The names of the Mitani kings are of the same kind. They are Sa-us-sa-tar, Aratama, Suttarna, Dusratta [or Tusratta]; Artassumara [or Artassuwara], and Mattuaza.”


Regarding the place of language of these names in the Indo-European family Sten Konow observes: “I think that the explanation of these facts has been given by Professor Bloomfield, who considers it possible that the ‘Mitani and other Western Asiatic Iranoid proper names came from a dialect closely allied to Iranian but not yet exactly Iranian, i.e. a dialect which did not change ‘S’ to ‘H’. It seems as if the change of S to H is not so old as the other Iranian characters. It only began after Iranian branch had separated itself from the common Aryan stock and did not at once spread over the whole Iranian area.

This shows that the change in language of the Aryans of different areas followed after their separation for a long time and they continued to clung to their old customs and traditions in their newer places of abode in later times also.

DrRajpalSingh
July 22nd, 2013, 09:17 PM
It will be interesting to understand the relation of Dasyu /Dainyu/Dapyu in rigvedic and avestan literature.These terms have been used interchangeably for the same people ...However Dapyu at the same time could be understood as Davyu that takes it closer to devas (v in Rigvedic literature changes to P in Avestan as Asva to Aspa) and that means Daivyu(Sanskrit) is equivalent Daipyu(avestan)which in turn relate with Dasyu...
So ..Does that mean Deva Dasyu are just the same people who settled in different areas and developed linguistic differences over the years?

We can discuss this but first let us understand the meaning and connotation of word Dasyu.

Friend,

Perhaps the following few quotes could come handy to make the issue somewhat clearer.

Dr. Budha Prakash in Rigveda and the Indus Civilisation, quotes Sukumar Sen, Old Persian inscriptions, p. 12, writes that " pasava drouga dahyuva vasaiyabavaa uta rarsaiy uta maidaiy uta amiyaxuva dahusuva'', and avers that "the word dasyu occurs in the form of dainyu, dakhyu and dapyu in the Avesta and in that of dahyu in the inscriptions of the Achaemenian kings." he goes on to state: "From this latter form have come the Hindi words deh and dehat meaning ''village' and 'countryside'.''

Further, it is stated that Meyer and Hillebrandt equate this word with the name of the Dahae, a tribe "nearly akin to the Iranins in the Kirghiz-Turkman steppe, which extends from the Caspian Sea beyond the Jaxartes or Syr Darya." [ cited by Buddha Prakash, E. Meyer, Geschicchte des Altertums, Vol. I, Section 425, p.525; Hillebrandt, Vedische Mythologie, Vol. I, pp. 94-116].

He goes on to say that ''It appears that the word dahyu or dasyu is an Iranian word meaning a country or a people like Pars or Persia and Mada or Media.

He further quotes: ''As Jahangir S. Tevadia remarks, "the suggestion that the original meaning of this term [dasyu] was enemy, from which was developed 'enemy people' or 'enemy country', is not convincing, for, in such a case, the phrase aryanam dahyunam, 'of the countries or people of the Aryas', would be very strange in the mouth of the Avestic adorers....I think, the word meant 'people' or 'country' without any bad connotation originally." [Roland G. Kent, Language, XII, p.298].

It also means that these words were used to denote the same group of people without any sort of differentiation of the people good or bad, friends or foes.

Nonetheless, I would like to welcome the participants to share their own views or the views of other authors on the issue to make it explicitly clear as to what was the meaning attached to them at the initial stage when these words came into use.

Thanks.

DrRajpalSingh
September 8th, 2013, 11:49 AM
Madra denotes a people who have been mentioned in the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad [iii.3,1; 7.1]; Kapya Patanchala was then living among them. Their name appears elsewhere in Vedic literature, only in that branch, the Uttara Madras, the northern Madras, who are referred to in the Aitareya Brahmana as living beyond the Himalayas in the neighbourhood of the Uttara Kurus... The Madras mentioned in the Upanishad were, like the Kurus, probably settled somewhere in Kurukshetra in the Madhya Desa or 'Middle Land.'

thanks

DrRajpalSingh
September 8th, 2013, 11:59 AM
Sigru is the name of a tribe occurring in the passage of the Rig Veda [VII,18,19] in which they are mentioned with the Ajas and the Yaksus as having been defeated by Tritsus and King Sudas.

But definite identification of the tribe has not been made possible so far, inspite of the fact that many attempts have been made in that direction.

Have someone come across more information! If yes, kindly share.

DrRajpalSingh
September 8th, 2013, 12:05 PM
Yaksu is mentioned once in the singular and once in the plural, in the hymn of the Rig Veda which celebrates Sudas battle with the ten kings. Who they were and what part they played in that conflict is quite uncertain. They see, from the wording of the text, to have taken part in two conflicts with the aid of Ajas and Sigrus, under the leadership of Bheda.

DrRajpalSingh
September 8th, 2013, 12:12 PM
Ajas are named in once verse of the Rigveda as having been defeated by the Tritsus under Sudas. They are there mentioned with the Yaksus and Sigrus as a part of confederacy under Bheda against sudas. The tribe name has not been properly identified whether it belonged to Aryan stock or not.

DrRajpalSingh
September 15th, 2013, 06:43 PM
Bahlika in the Satapatha Brahmana is applied to the people of the West, of the Punjab.

They are said to have called Agni by the name of Bhava.

DrRajpalSingh
September 15th, 2013, 09:32 PM
The readers are requested to add more names

to the list of the pre Epic times tribes in India.


Thanks

DrRajpalSingh
October 5th, 2013, 11:48 PM
Pundra [i, 536] is the name of a people regarded as outcastes in the Aitareya Brahmana.

Their name occurs in the Baudhayana Dharma Sutra and some other sutras also.

In the Epic their country corresponds with Bengal and Bihar.

maddhan1979
October 6th, 2013, 08:18 AM
Are the tribes u talk about written on some stone relics from that era? or these are written on paper copies or tree bark? If so, in what time were these written?

I think the authenticity of these tribes can only be confirmed by archaeological artifacts from that era otherwise they all turn into mythological names and not factual names backed by verifiable facts.

DrRajpalSingh
October 6th, 2013, 09:11 AM
Are the tribes u talk about written on some stone relics from that era? or these are written on paper copies or tree bark? If so, in what time were these written?

I think the authenticity of these tribes can only be confirmed by archaeological artifacts from that era otherwise they all turn into mythological names and not factual names backed by verifiable facts.

Friend,

For an answer kindly read first few posts.

Thanks

rkumar
October 6th, 2013, 09:20 AM
Answer to many of the questions raised here can be found in the following book;

"The Open Secret of India, Israel and Mexico; from Genesis to Revelations!"

http://books.google.com/books?id=lxj...20rama&f=false


RK^2

maddhan1979
October 6th, 2013, 10:06 AM
So far as the uses of the words 'Arya' and 'Dasyu' are concerned, they are used in the ethnic sense in the Rigveda. But in post Rig vedic literature which had been composed after the Aryans had arrived in India, the use of the word meaning of 'Arya' changed to denote 'Master.'

According to Panini (III.1.103) 'Arya' means swami i.e. 'master' as well as 'vaisya'. So when Arya is not used in the sense of 'Vaisya', it denotes the first three varanas i.e. Brahmin, Kshatriya and Vaishya--not because they are Aryan in blood, but because they are 'masters', that is to say, 'freemen', and not slaves.

Thanks.

I think this is not true.
The points are:
1. Have they really found hand written things(books of ancient times), written by Pannini himeself? Most of the old work in India that we can find today is in continuation of the something that has no verifiable facts. Either such facts were destroyed in ancient past or were in oral tradition.
2. Again after 4 th BC, India has gone through a surge of religious life, which got hold of people's lives and never allowed them to think out of box. If u study religions, history and philosophy of the world, you will find that religions have made "Bat ka Batangar", they have hidden scientific facts from people and created "history" as they please and as it makes them happy. There are lot of good documentaries about it on youtube just type "religion, science, philosophy" , u will find lot of such documentaries, which show the facts and not just some words from thin air.

DrRajpalSingh
October 6th, 2013, 10:49 AM
I think this is not true.
The points are:
1. Have they really found hand written things, written by Pannini himeself? Most of the old work in India that we can find today is in continuation of the something that has no verifiable facts.
2. Again after 4 th BC, India has gone through a surge of religious life, which got hold of people's lives and never allowed them to think out of box. If u study religions, history and philosophy of the world, you will find that religions have made "Bat ka Batangar", they have hidden scientific facts from people and created "history" as they please and as it makes them happy. There are lot of good documentaries about it on youtube just type "religion, science, philosophy" , u will find lot of such documentaries, which show the facts and not just some words from thin air.

Friend,

You have every right to disagree.

But the points advanced by you have already been given due weightage by the scholars before accepting the ancient books' historicity. On Panini read relevant data available on the wiki pages of the Jatland and also other well researched books to make judicious estimation of the sources of history.

Thanks.