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rkumar
September 17th, 2013, 07:09 PM
Stupidity among Hindus is not new. It goes back at least 1000 years. When Islam was taking roots in Arabia and Islamic armies were invading country after country, our kings were sleeping and indulging in women and wining. Our kings and people had no clue what Islam and Islamic philosophy was. Result we all know. Unfortunately story does not end here. Islamic scholars talk of "Ghazwa-e_Hind";

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BR9QI8PuITU

The person in this video is a highly respected and important Islamic scholar and also a prominent Pakistani politician. If Hindus decide to laugh at what he is saying, then God save us. Blame Modi and RSS, Rath yatra etc if that makes one happy and claim the title of secularism.

RK^2

vicky84
September 17th, 2013, 07:21 PM
India is a diverse country and it's strength lies in secularism. And if secular fundamental gets weaker, India will get weaker too. Unlike Pakistan, after independence, India kept secular credentials intact. Whereas situation in Pakistan got worse due to non secular dominant forces. Religious intolerance is Pakistan has led to a collapse.

rkumar
September 17th, 2013, 07:24 PM
Here is another very respected Islamic scholar talking of Ghazwa-E-Hind;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpxsGEn1dKc

There are 1oos of sermons on this subject. Will pseudo-Seculars like to advise Indian Hindus on the subject? Should we ignore them or what?

RK^2

rkumar
September 17th, 2013, 07:27 PM
India is a diverse country and it's strength lies in secularism. And if secular fundamental gets weaker, India will get weaker too. Unlike Pakistan, after independence, India kept secular credentials intact. Whereas situation in Pakistan got worse due to non secular dominant forces. Religious intolerance is Pakistan has led to a collapse.

This does not answer the question I have raised. Please tell us what will you say of Muslims who believe in Ghazwa-E-Hind as their religious duty.

RK^2

vicky84
September 17th, 2013, 07:35 PM
This does not answer the question I have raised. Please tell us what will you say of Muslims who believe in Ghazwa-E-Hind as their religious duty.

RK^2

Sir, in my opinion, secularism answers all.

secular spirit or tendency, esp. a system of political or social philosophy that rejects religious faith and worship./the attitude that religion should have no place in civil affairs

rkumar
September 17th, 2013, 07:42 PM
Sir, in my opinion, secularism answers all.

secular spirit or tendency, esp. a system of political or social philosophy that rejects religious faith and worship./the attitude that religion should have no place in civil affairs

Fine. How can we teach secularism to these Ghazwa-e-Hind" soldiers of Islam? Any advise to RSS and people like me who want to live peacefully with every religion?

RK^2

vicky84
September 17th, 2013, 07:51 PM
Fine. How can we teach secularism to these Ghazwa-e-Hind" soldiers of Islam? Any advise to RSS and people like me who want to live peacefully with every religion?

RK^2

Sir,

No one is above law. A very good news has come our neighbor today, which is very inspiring.

Bangladesh top court orders senior Islamist to hang
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/south-asia/Bangladesh-top-court-orders-senior-Islamist-to-hang/articleshow/22648369.cms

swaich
September 17th, 2013, 07:58 PM
Stupidity among Hindus is not new. It goes back at least 1000 years. When Islam was taking roots in Arabia and Islamic armies were invading country after country, our kings were sleeping and indulging in women and wining. Our kings and people had no clue what Islam and Islamic philosophy was. Result we all know. Unfortunately story does not end here. Islamic scholars talk of "Ghazwa-e_Hind";

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BR9QI8PuITU

The person in this video is a highly respected and important Islamic scholar and also a prominent Pakistani politician. If Hindus decide to laugh at what he is saying, then God save us. Blame Modi and RSS, Rath yatra etc if that makes one happy and claim the title of secularism.

RK^2

You seem a learned and senior person Mr. Kumar. Tell me, why should you club all Muslims with what one fringe politician is speaking about and that too in Pakistan? Just like the Sanghis and chaddi walas don't represent Hindus of India, this idiot politician doesn't represent Islam or Muslims in India. Why generalize?

rkumar
September 17th, 2013, 08:06 PM
You seem a learned and senior person Mr. Kumar. Tell me, why should you club all Muslims with what one fringe politician is speaking about and that too in Pakistan? Just like the Sanghis and chaddi walas don't represent Hindus of India, this idiot politician doesn't represent Islam or Muslims in India. Why generalize?

He is quoting Hadis and Quran and words of their Prophet. He is not alone. There are 100s of Islamic scholars from different countries who say the same thing. These are not his personal views. He is just telling them what is told by Prophet.

RK^2

swaich
September 17th, 2013, 11:05 PM
He is quoting Hadis and Quran and words of their Prophet. He is not alone. There are 100s of Islamic scholars from different countries who say the same thing. These are not his personal views. He is just telling them what is told by Prophet.

RK^2

Quaran, just like the Bible are open to interpretations.

Ok, so its 100 scholars. How many Muslims are there again, 1 Bn? Are they all busy chopping down kafirs and waging wars?

Don't let your own insecurities and fears get the better of you.

rkumar
September 18th, 2013, 01:10 AM
Quaran, just like the Bible are open to interpretations.

Ok, so its 100 scholars. How many Muslims are there again, 1 Bn? Are they all busy chopping down kafirs and waging wars?

Don't let your own insecurities and fears get the better of you.

One billion people be they Muslims or Hindu or anyone, can never be the scholars of religion. Scholars are always a very small number in any community. I have not come across any Muslim scholar refuting "Ghazwa_E-Hind". It is scholars who the opinion makers. Having false security I not going to help. I was just scanning a Pakistani paper (http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-english-online/national/16-Sep-2013/fight-poverty-not-india-modi-asks-pakistan) and came across this comment by a reader which invokes the very Ghazwa-E-Hind:

Sohail Pasha > koshur_batta
• a day ago △ ▽


told you slumdog we are in your head, you just cant get us out. you slumdog eat , breath, and sleep Pakistan..Biggest Slumdog of all... number one terrorist.........LET THE GHAZWA E HIND BEGIN...... you slumdogs want to meet your maker, we will oblige you...... all you Slumdogs can bark all you want, insult all you want... your days are numbered. you were our bitches for over a thousand years , you are still our bitches for the next thousand years, the only good Hindu is a dead Hindu.. the only good Hindini is the one under a Muslim or on a seti. ( we will help you revive this)


RK^2

deependra
September 18th, 2013, 06:33 AM
The root cause of these rotten heads is the preachings of this book. It's a fact that this book has been the reason of making terrorist.. If their basic theory itself is wrong, how can we expect them to co-exist peacefully with others..

VirJ
September 18th, 2013, 08:20 AM
We have to be very careful. The wahhabism is very dangerous. They want islam rule all over india and other countries. Saudi and US made these powerful and exported them to Afganistan. Pakistan got involved and now they are so powerful in Pakistan that even govt cant dare to touch them.

Unfortunately there are many muslims who attend madarsa and listen to these Mullas. These mullas teach them that things like Ghazwa of hind. That allah has already foretold that Islam will conquer India and the armies will rise from Sind (pakistan).

Fortunately in India lot of muslims dont subscribe to Wahhabism at the moment but we have to be prepared. We have to nip the evil in the bud.

swaich
September 18th, 2013, 10:22 AM
@jitender Mann - All religious fanatics, be it Islamic, Hindu right-wingers, Khalistanis and Christians conversationalists deserve no respect.

Save your threats and don't take out anger on keyboards.

Prikshit
September 18th, 2013, 10:41 AM
Sir, in my opinion, secularism answers all.

secular spirit or tendency, esp. a system of political or social philosophy that rejects religious faith and worship./the attitude that religion should have no place in civil affairs
Please don't tell us the definition or how it should be ideally. Comment on the present situation.

shekharjat
September 18th, 2013, 10:53 AM
@RAJENDRA JI....you have hit the bulls eye sir......in a room if i have problem with everybody else .i need to introspect same goes with slam......be it

INDIA,PHILIPPINES,USA,UK,AUSTRALIA,INDONESIA,SRILA NKA,MYANMAR,NIGERIA,LEBANON,CHINA,RUSSIA,LIBYA.SYR IA,
IRAN,IRAQ,MALI,SUDAN,ETHIOPIA,SOMALIA,KENYA,GERMAN Y.......... LIST GOES ON ........Islam seems to be in conflict with every other religion....above all it is also in conflict with itself see Pakistan ,Bangladesh, I hope seculars do not blame RSS and BJP for troubles in pakistan....

sir ,these seculars have very similar backgrounds if you will check them deeply...either their relatives are fighting on KHANRESS tickets or they are in developed countries teaching us value on American constitution and true meaning of liberty,equality and freedom.......

.in India they have shielded themselves in ivory towers.....they do not face menace of Muslims in daily life.....sir they live in colonies with very few Muslims.....they take their behavior to generalize all Muslims......sir their sisters and wife are not molested or targeted by jehadis as happened in KAWAAL........so please ignore them.......

these ppl are true hypocrites so you can`t expect anything good from them

seculars....please come out of your AC cocoons and face reality i offer you a crash course to live with Muslims in muzaffarnagar in khala paar with female members of your family .......you will learn few new concepts of real life........

the concept of jehad has been used politically by Muslims against jews,christians,sikhs,hindus,buddhist.parsis from time of prophet go read some history books enlighten ur selfs

AbhikRana
September 18th, 2013, 02:48 PM
It is their avowed principle/philosophy to gradually transform the world into a Caliphate as is mentioned in their various texts and scriptures.

We need not go too far. Their population is steadily growing with four wives and at least 16 children. Being in a so-called minority if they are so dangerous (terrorism, rape and molestation of girls, killings, hafta wasooli, etc) one can only imagine what will they be like when they become the majority community in the times to come and which is all too IMMINENT.

It's a numbers game and the muslims all around the world have realized this. They are migrating everywhere and spreading religious hate and bigotry there. Even the westerners have started realizing this and will sooner than later come down with a heavy hand on this.

My only worry is with a few people amongst us who will just close their eyes to the ground reality and post after post quote from their old school days civics/social studies books and also go on to talk of the politics of the Patloon walas, Chaddi walas and salwar walas. I think they have already resigned to the fate of converting to Islam which is all too imminent because of their political masters and their supporters.

cooljat
September 18th, 2013, 06:46 PM
This Picture sums up Islam.

16848

desijat
September 18th, 2013, 08:04 PM
Mubarak ho, this is the new religion Mr. Modi is appeasing to now.


This Picture sums up Islam.

16848

RathiJi
September 18th, 2013, 11:44 PM
Mubarak ho, this is the new religion Mr. Modi is appeasing to now.

No one ever appeases them everyone used them :) and thrown. since 7th century to till date. Let modi also use them . what is the problem ?

desijat
September 19th, 2013, 12:31 AM
No problem

Problem is his style of politics which is divisive, are you saying he is changing it?


No one ever appeases them everyone used them :) and thrown. since 7th century to till date. Let modi also use them . what is the problem ?

RathiJi
September 19th, 2013, 12:34 AM
LoL... why will Allah forecast Ghazwa-e-hind as I believe according to Islam Allah is the creator,moderator & destroyer of the whole universe. Why will he keep Infidels in India and then will ask believers to fight with them n die. I think no Hindu/Muslim/Christian/Jew/Sikh or any living or non living creature can exist without wish of Allah even for a second because "lā ʾilāha ʾillā l-Lāh, Muḥammadun rasūlu l-Lāh" means "There is no god but Allah, Muhammad is the messenger of God".

The one who is supreme can't do this to his people in Pakistan,Syria,Lebanon,Egypt,Iraq,Palestine,Yemen, Sudan,Somalia,Nigeria etc. Ghazwa-e-hind to baad me hoga lagta hai ye pehle hi nipat lenge.

RathiJi
September 19th, 2013, 12:39 AM
No problem

Problem is his style of politics which is divisive, are you saying he is changing it?

I think Congress with its rule post independence united all Indians irrespective of cast,creed & religion. what a joke even a kid can tell about the riots of hashimpura, Bombay, Bhagalpur, Bhiwandi, Niele(Assam), 89 exodus of Kashmiri Pundits, 84 massacre of Sikhs . what are talking about brother , divisive politics ? come again.

desijat
September 19th, 2013, 12:44 AM
Two wrongs dont make a riot, oops i mean right


I think Congress with its rule post independence united all Indians irrespective of cast,creed & religion. what a joke even a kid can tell about the riots of hashimpura, Bombay, Bhagalpur, Bhiwandi, Niele(Assam), 89 exodus of Kashmiri Pundits, 84 massacre of Sikhs . what are talking about brother , divisive politics ? come again.

RathiJi
September 19th, 2013, 12:49 AM
Two wrongs dont make a riot, oops i mean right

so you are admitting that Congress is wrong never do right . It only do riots. Oops!

desijat
September 19th, 2013, 01:03 AM
No, I am saying someone else's mistake can not justify yours


so you are admitting that Congress is wrong never do right . It only do riots. Oops!

RathiJi
September 19th, 2013, 01:05 AM
No, I am saying someone else's mistake can not justify yours

So to prove my point wrong u need to first admit if that someone committed the mistake or not .

desijat
September 19th, 2013, 01:33 AM
I just did I believe, I am noy a politician who will revolve around words.

1984 was wrong, moral responsibility is of the rulers and they did apologised. Happy? Your take on 2002?
So to prove my point wrong u need to first admit if that someone committed the mistake or not .

rkumar
September 19th, 2013, 06:09 AM
Stupidity among Hindus is not new. It goes back at least 1000 years. When Islam was taking roots in Arabia and Islamic armies were invading country after country, our kings were sleeping and indulging in women and wining. Our kings and people had no clue what Islam and Islamic philosophy was. Result we all know. Unfortunately story does not end here. Islamic scholars talk of "Ghazwa-e_Hind";

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BR9QI8PuITU

The person in this video is a highly respected and important Islamic scholar and also a prominent Pakistani politician. If Hindus decide to laugh at what he is saying, then God save us. Blame Modi and RSS, Rath yatra etc if that makes one happy and claim the title of secularism.

RK^2

watch the very Pakistani scholar who speaks of Ghazwa-E-hind in my first post of thread, praises Modi in the following video link;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YCaxVu3r5A

These two videos by the same scholar tell a great deal. For fixed minds Modi will still remain communal.

RK^2

vicky84
September 19th, 2013, 08:53 AM
Chennai mosque helps students crack IAS

http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/chennai/chennai-mosque-helps-students-crack-ias/article5142581.ece?homepage=true

September 19, 2013 08:38 IST

Most people may associate a mosque or madrassa with just Koranic teachings, but Makka Masjid on the arterial Anna Salai is aiming to dispel that notion.

rkumar
September 19th, 2013, 09:58 AM
Chennai mosque helps students crack IAS

http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/chennai/chennai-mosque-helps-students-crack-ias/article5142581.ece?homepage=true

September 19, 2013 08:38 IST

Most people may associate a mosque or madrassa with just Koranic teachings, but Makka Masjid on the arterial Anna Salai is aiming to dispel that notion.

Does Imam of the mosque take classes ? If I have understood correctly, all they are doing is just using the space in mosque. Our temples and Gurudwaras are also running colleges and hospitals. Christians have been running colleges for all communities and providing secular education. Can boys from other religion attend IAS coaching classes in the mosque??

RK^2

RathiJi
September 19th, 2013, 11:14 AM
I just did I believe, I am noy a politician who will revolve around words.

1984 was wrong, moral responsibility is of the rulers and they did apologised. Happy? Your take on 2002?

Oh! only 84 ... It means Congress only apologises to Sikhs as u stated. go back to my post and read the number n name of riots. As per ur logic rulers r accountable and in all those riots SIKULAR KHANGRESS was in power for state n center. So come back again with apologies for Muslims as well as Hindus.

RathiJi
September 19th, 2013, 11:19 AM
I just did I believe, I am noy a politician who will revolve around words.

1984 was wrong, moral responsibility is of the rulers and they did apologised. Happy? Your take on 2002?

22nd May 1987, Hashimpura, Meerut UP. Cheif Minister Vir Bahadur Singh (Khangress) , PrimeMinister Rajiv Gandhi (Khangress) . PAC lined up muslims and shot them dead in muradnagar canal. Public outrage no one resigned , no sorry, no accountability, No justice to the victims yet in 2013 :). Ask you beloved rulers to do something ..

pawandahiya
September 19th, 2013, 12:17 PM
No problem

Problem is his style of politics which is divisive, are you saying he is changing it?

Vikas

Is there is a political party in India which is fault-free? When Congress talk/give reservation only for Muslims, is it not divisive technique?

AbhikRana
September 19th, 2013, 01:41 PM
Swaich ji, with all the earnestness, it is not RK ji's insecurity, it is your insecurity and others like you (opponents of Modi) that makes you oppose BJP and Modi.

If the Holy Quran is open to interpretation, can you please tell me how is it being interpreted wrongly all across the world - Afghanistan, India, Bosnia-Herzegovinia, Israel-Arab Conflict, US (New York) Bombings, London and France (Europe) train bombings, Chechnya, Myanmar, Indonesia (Bali bombings), Uighurs in China?

All the interpretations all across the world wrong? How can you justify the communal strife and violence all across the world? What is wrong with all the interpretation?


Quaran, just like the Bible are open to interpretations.

Ok, so its 100 scholars. How many Muslims are there again, 1 Bn? Are they all busy chopping down kafirs and waging wars?

Don't let your own insecurities and fears get the better of you.

swaich
September 19th, 2013, 01:47 PM
Swaich ji, with all the earnestness, it is not RK ji's insecurity, it is your insecurity and others like you (opponents of Modi) that makes you oppose BJP and Modi.

If the Holy Quran is open to interpretation, can you please tell me how is it being interpreted wrongly all across the world - Afghanistan, India, Bosnia-Herzegovinia, Israel-Arab Conflict, US (New York) Bombings, London and France (Europe) train bombings, Chechnya, Myanmar, Indonesia (Bali bombings), Uighurs in China?

All the interpretations all across the world wrong? How can you justify the communal strife and violence all across the world? What is wrong with all the interpretation?

If every interpretation of the Quran is wrong and leads only violence, then how do you explain millions pf peaceful Muslims? The majority of Muslims are peaceful, common men like you and me.

prashantacmet
September 19th, 2013, 02:00 PM
If every interpretation of the Quran is wrong and leads only violence, then how do you explain millions pf peaceful Muslims? The majority of Muslims are peaceful, common men like you and me.

this is not a laughter show..you will keep craking the jokes and people will burst into laughter....majority of muslism are peaceful?.. really?...

I am not saying that all muslims are fanatics ..but out of 100 , 75 are fanatics and dreaming of reaching Jannat by killing or converting kaafirs in Islams..in other religions , you will find at most 25 fanactics out of 100.. have you ever heard cases of forceful conversion from othe religions to hinduism...history is the evidence how many wars muslism have waged for the sake of religion....even today you don't see most of the cases around worlds due to their fanaticism ? majority of terrorists,wars, turmoils exist among muslims....you claim to be a sikh..do you know even a single bit of your history..why sikhs started wearing turbans, keeping kirpans???....you are softly leaving aside everthing and claiming the majority of them as peaceful...who is going to buy your story?..you think whole world is dumb?..

RathiJi
September 19th, 2013, 02:24 PM
If every interpretation of the Quran is wrong and leads only violence, then how do you explain millions pf peaceful Muslims? The majority of Muslims are peaceful, common men like you and me.

Swaich, I think you need practical understanding more than theoritical facts. So to start with peaceful muslims I would suggest you to go to any of these countries like Syria,Pakistan,Afghanistan,Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Somalia, Sudan, Nigeria, Lebanon, Iraq, Palestine, and many more. They all are predominantly muslim countries and I believe you that muslims living in those countries must be peaceful.

If you even dare to worship ur goddess n gods inside ur own house , the religious police will come and join ur peacefull because u r a extremist hindu and they are peaceful islamic.

AbhikRana
September 19th, 2013, 02:27 PM
I was expecting a reply to my very genuine and earnest question rather than a counter question?

How come the interpretation is wrong all across the world?


If every interpretation of the Quran is wrong and leads only violence, then how do you explain millions pf peaceful Muslims? The majority of Muslims are peaceful, common men like you and me.

swaich
September 19th, 2013, 07:46 PM
Prashant -

1. Lets keep my religion and my knowledge of my religion out of it
2. 75 out of 100 are fanatics? I don't buy that. I have met enough Muslims uptill now to come to a conclusion that thats not the case and you are gravely mistaken.
3. I can bet in history more were killed in Hindus fighting Hindus, Christians fighting Christians than Muslims against any other religion.

swaich
September 19th, 2013, 07:49 PM
Swaich, I think you need practical understanding more than theoritical facts. So to start with peaceful muslims I would suggest you to go to any of these countries like Syria,Pakistan,Afghanistan,Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Somalia, Sudan, Nigeria, Lebanon, Iraq, Palestine, and many more. They all are predominantly muslim countries and I believe you that muslims living in those countries must be peaceful.

If you even dare to worship ur goddess n gods inside ur own house , the religious police will come and join ur peacefull because u r a extremist hindu and they are peaceful islamic.

Just because my opinions are different than yours, you think I am basic my opinions on theories alone?

Have you been to these countries that you ask me to visit?

FYI - many of these countries that you quoted, their govts do not force people to follow Islam only. Other religions are followed by many people. And NO police will come into your house and bust your idols.

swaich
September 19th, 2013, 07:50 PM
I was expecting a reply to my very genuine and earnest question rather than a counter question?

How come the interpretation is wrong all across the world?

There are right and wrong interpretation all across the world.

desijat
September 19th, 2013, 08:21 PM
Rathi ji,

While what you say is absolutely right but Hinduism has its evils too, please take a note:


With keeping all my wisdom aside I trust for a moment that interpretations are wrong across the world. Now few questions anybody can ask a muslim scholar across the globe whom they trust as true interpreter

1. The biggest sin according to Quran is "Shirk" meaning idol worship, and one who does that is the worst creature in eyes of Allah who will burn him in Hell irrespective of his deeds :) . So all the Hindus will be fried.



Even Arya Samaj preaches that, although not the burning part


2. The testimony of a woman in shariah court will be half credibile as that of male muslim as Allah thinks that women are half wiser and half trustworthy than man.


Historically we had Sati, and ask yourself does our society give woman equal rights?



3. The biggest duty of any muslim is to slay idol worshiper and force the fear of Allah in their hearts.

There is a division with in them too, like Barelvi and Devbandi. One believe in shrine worship other does not.



4. The men is allowed to marry as many as four wives , few tender boys , can keep cucubines and keep POW wives and they are allowed to do *** with them acc to Allah.

With conditions. By the way go back to history after independence, when Nehru and Ambedkar were trying to put forward Hindu Marriage Act RSS and BJP were opposing it and one of the point they had was that Hindus should be allowed to have more than 1 wife as according to them it is written in scripts.



5. Allah lives on 7th heaven and will come down to earth on final day of judgement till them all the lives living or dead since the creation of earth will wait for their judgement. ;)


Dont we believe the same? Heaven and hell after death?



point being, every religion is as perfect as we make it. And Hinduism teaches you to be tolerant to others.

rkumar
September 19th, 2013, 08:43 PM
[QUOTE=desijat;347709]Rathi ji,

While what you say is absolutely right but Hinduism has its evils too, QUOTE]

Agreed 100%. Many of these evils are the root cause of our downfall. Time came when many sections of Hindus lost their dignity and had no option but to convert to Islam. Its another matter that their lot remained same even after conversion. Hindu organizations won't loose a single opportunity to blame Christians for conversion, but have done precious little to work among Tribes to improve their lot. A Christian "Padri" can travel all the way from Netherland to "Chota Nagpur", but not our Brahmin and VHP priests. Christians went to interior of Africa and worked with Tribes under adverse conditions; sadly never our Hindu loud mouths.

Basically we are poor human material and I have no second thoughts in admitting that.

RK^2

shekharjat
September 19th, 2013, 08:56 PM
still waiting somebody from secular cult to accept my offer to live in khalapaar in muzaffarnagar with female members of family..........
?????????

prashantacmet
September 19th, 2013, 09:00 PM
Prashant -

1. Lets keep my religion and my knowledge of my religion out of it
2. 75 out of 100 are fanatics? I don't buy that. I have met enough Muslims uptill now to come to a conclusion that thats not the case and you are gravely mistaken.
3. I can bet in history more were killed in Hindus fighting Hindus, Christians fighting Christians than Muslims against any other religion.

..gal sunn...hun tu mainnu nu dass..tainnu keda analysis kitta si...zede lokka ki tu himayat karda firta si...ohi lokka ne punjab wich julm karya si ....

desijat
September 19th, 2013, 09:09 PM
Last year when I was flying from Frankfurt to DC on a Lufthansa flight, I was listening to a bunch of young men in the ally of the aircraft(it ws an old 747 and there was no IFE so was looking for entertainment) and it turned out they were coming back from a remove village in Orissa. I got interested and joined the discussion. What I learned was a planned agenda, these guys who belonged to well-off families worked with churches in the west and had travelled to Orissa on the account of spreading hapinnes, education and mediciines with a hidden agenda of conversion, of course. Irony is, most of these conversions take place in belts of non-congress governments like Chattisgarh, Orissa and Jharkand(sorry for the politics but a fair observation) but reason is extreme poverty and negligence by states.


[QUOTE=desijat;347709]Rathi ji,

While what you say is absolutely right but Hinduism has its evils too, QUOTE]

Agreed 100%. Many of these evils are the root cause of our downfall. Time came when many sections of Hindus lost their dignity and had no option but to convert to Islam. Its another matter that their lot remained same even after conversion. Hindu organizations won't loose a single opportunity to blame Christians for conversion, but have done precious little to work among Tribes to improve their lot. A Christian "Padri" can travel all the way from Netherland to "Chota Nagpur", but not our Brahmin and VHP priests. Christians went to interior of Africa and worked with Tribes under adverse conditions; sadly never our Hindu loud mouths.

Basically we are poor human material and I have no second thoughts in admitting that.

RK^2

AbhikRana
September 19th, 2013, 09:40 PM
Totally agree that there are right and wrong interpretations all across the world.

But the question still remains why is the Holy Quran being interpreted wrongly across the globe from New York to Australia, from London and Paris to India, from Chechnya to Uighurs of China, from Bosnia Herzegovinia to Indonesia,etc, etc?


There are right and wrong interpretation all across the world.

rkumar
September 19th, 2013, 09:41 PM
Prashant -

3. I can bet in history more were killed in Hindus fighting Hindus, Christians fighting Christians than Muslims against any other religion.

I will agree with Christians fighting Christians because of WWI and WWII and other wars in Europe. However I am a bit astonished about other two. Will you please educate us about the number of people killed by Hindus. Ever heard of Genghis Khan , Taimur and other Muslim invaders who butchered locals in thousands ? Did Hindus burn any library in entire human history? Did Hindus convert people by force? Did Hindus bring slaves after any war and sold men and women?

RK^2

AbhikRana
September 19th, 2013, 09:41 PM
I guess not. For the secularists, it's much safer to take their (Beecharas') side in/on the virtual world.


still waiting somebody from secular cult to accept my offer to live in khalapaar in muzaffarnagar with female members of family..........
?????????

RathiJi
September 19th, 2013, 10:03 PM
Just because my opinions are different than yours, you think I am basic my opinions on theories alone?

Have you been to these countries that you ask me to visit?

FYI - many of these countries that you quoted, their govts do not force people to follow Islam only. Other religions are followed by many people. And NO police will come into your house and bust your idols.

No my dear friend you are entitled to differ. It's ur right. I said those things on basis of harsh reality. I can quote many facts about Islamic countries without even going there with help of neutral international agencies and testimony of non Islamic people living there. But before I do that here is a food for thought . Lets begin from reading about MUTAWEEN.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutaween

RathiJi
September 19th, 2013, 10:08 PM
Prashant -

1. Lets keep my religion and my knowledge of my religion out of it
2. 75 out of 100 are fanatics? I don't buy that. I have met enough Muslims uptill now to come to a conclusion that thats not the case and you are gravely mistaken.
3. I can bet in history more were killed in Hindus fighting Hindus, Christians fighting Christians than Muslims against any other religion.

Request you to bring some facts before doing the bet.

FYI : I believe you must be knowing about Sahibzada Zorawar Singh & Sahibzada Fateh Singh.

AbhikRana
September 19th, 2013, 10:12 PM
I would tend to differ here.

In Afghanistan, we all know what happened to the Bamiyan statues of Lord Budha. How ladies were shot with the AK 47 in full public view almost as a sport, how music, sports and education to girls was banned as it was against their faith. How the Hindus and Sikhs still PAY Jiziya (Protection money).

In Iran there is a religious police which patrols the streets discreetly, though the punishment is swift and harsh in case anyone is found going against Islamic laws.

In Iraq Christians are being forced to flee the country of their forefathers.

In Pakistan, we all know how easy it is to put the blame on non-muslims of disrespect to the prophet which is legally considered as blasphemy punishable with death. One false allegation and before the police comes and takes that person into custody, your peaceful people hand out instant justice by lynching the non-muslim.

I hope you do not need any further examples which I am more than confident that there are. In case you do, please dig a little deeper into your google and wikipedia.

Govt. action against non-muslims might not just be direct. It might be indirect by putting so many restrictions that the person either is a second class citizen or over generations his family converts to Islam or finally leaves the country for good.


Just because my opinions are different than yours, you think I am basic my opinions on theories alone?

Have you been to these countries that you ask me to visit?

FYI - many of these countries that you quoted, their govts do not force people to follow Islam only. Other religions are followed by many people. And NO police will come into your house and bust your idols.

prashantacmet
September 19th, 2013, 10:30 PM
Mr. swaich..either you are a secularist of same potential as gandhi was or you are a muslim itself....after gandhi i am seeing the utmost intensity of secularism inside you...... Gandhi ..who pushed entire India into burning fire just to keep his stubbornness. Like you he was the protector of muslims! oops seculars....do you have any figure how many other religion people were killed by muslims in "jinnah's direct action" ..do you know something about noakhlii in bengal..if you truely belively in stats..for god sake..analyse these stats too apart from Modi ...

swaich
September 19th, 2013, 10:35 PM
..gal sunn...hun tu mainnu nu dass..tainnu keda analysis kitta si...zede lokka ki tu himayat karda firta si...ohi lokka ne punjab wich julm karya si ....

Lai sun fer...Jihna ne mere purvajan da history ch bura kita, ohna da badla mere purvajan ne ya Rabb ne liya...main kyun uhni di current generation nu marha akha?

Main lokan nu generalize ni karda. Marhe bande har ik community vich hunde aa. Tu ik passe tan kehna ain media Jattan nu generalize kardi hai. Sirf honour kilings etc di gallan karke badnaam kardi aa. Te ik passe tu aap hu sare muslamana tu generalize karda ain..Ki eh sahi aa?


P.S. I hope that wasn't just an attempt to check my Punjabi.

RathiJi
September 19th, 2013, 10:37 PM
Dear Desijat,

Thanks for acknowledgement that what I told about Islam was true. Now I can see you still trying to defend that by saying about evils of Hinduism , which will not stand even for a second. So here I go



Even Arya Samaj preaches that, although not the burning part

Pandit Mahendra Pal Arya , a renowned scholar of Arya Samaj trying to explain some facts about Islam and Arya Samaj. Please take a look.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cl5Mhl9Axjs

PS: saying that my religion is best is Okay but asking to kill people of other faith, no difference for u ?



Historically we had Sati, and ask yourself does our society give woman equal rights?

Historically is the keyword here. Did you know historically people use to eat raw flesh but they leaned n moved on :). Sati was a bad practice in Hindusim which got abolished in 1829 , two centuries ago and more interestingly by reformers from our religion only like Raja ram mohan roy.



There is a division with in them too, like Barelvi and Devbandi. One believe in shrine worship other does not.

Who cares about Barelvi or deobandi. They have their own practices and millions of Hindus have their own. Who are they to slay or insult or criticise Idol worshipper.



With conditions. By the way go back to history after independence, when Nehru and Ambedkar were trying to put forward Hindu Marriage Act RSS and BJP were opposing it and one of the point they had was that Hindus should be allowed to have more than 1 wife as according to them it is written in scripts.

Why their r condition even in place ? If govt allow us to steal,rape,murder or any other crime with some conditions ? Now you urself decide that when RSS & BJP opposed for amendment in Hindu marriage act by giving testimonies of Hindu scriptures, even being majority Hindu's en-masse did not oppose or cry foul for it. They dint bomb anyone or become terrorists. This is hindu's definition. wisdom always prevails we can question our sacred scriptures.


Dont we believe the same? Heaven and hell after death?

I dont know about all but I believe in that. In a nutshell, I am a fraction of Parmatma and in the end will there. He will not come to my land and hold a panchayat for my fate.


You can never compare apple with oranges that's the biggest sin you gonna make.

swaich
September 19th, 2013, 10:50 PM
Totally agree that there are right and wrong interpretations all across the world.

But the question still remains why is the Holy Quran being interpreted wrongly across the globe from New York to Australia, from London and Paris to India, from Chechnya to Uighurs of China, from Bosnia Herzegovinia to Indonesia,etc, etc?

A fair question. Now I would request you to read with an unbiased mind. Do you think Quran is the only one which has been wrongly interpreted?

Do you know how many Christians were burnt by the clergy for being witches and heretics? Do you know why the Christians of Europe launched the Crusades in far away Holy Lands aka current day Israel/Palestine? Do you know how Christian missionaries justified the slave trade and forced conversions of natives in Africa, Asia and Latin America?

Yes, that was all justified and supported by the so called interpretations of the Bible.

Even the Khalistani militants justified killing Hindu merchants and other innocents as a part of their fight against Khalsa's enemies as mentioned in the Guru Granth Sahib.

So, the point here is that since ages, some people have tried to convince others of their own beliefs and views by taking support from their holy books. This is nothing new. It has always been people of some religion or the other trying to justify their own actions or thoughts by quoting their religion. If I wish to wage war on Hindus or India in general, like in those videos I will find a couplet or a verse from Quran to support my theory. On the other hand, if I wish to live in peace, I will find a verse that justifies my actions.

My sole criteria for not condemning Islam as some lunacy is that I see more peaceful followers than violent, evil ones. I have the good fortune of closely interacting with many classmates, colleagues and friends who have really widened my perspectives of Islam and the society we live in.

swaich
September 19th, 2013, 11:01 PM
I will agree with Christians fighting Christians because of WWI and WWII and other wars in Europe. However I am a bit astonished about other two. Will you please educate us about the number of people killed by Hindus. Ever heard of Genghis Khan , Taimur and other Muslim invaders who butchered locals in thousands ? Did Hindus burn any library in entire human history? Did Hindus convert people by force? Did Hindus bring slaves after any war and sold men and women?

RK^2

The point was about killings or deaths. Did we not have any wars in India before the arrival of Islam? Did Hindu kingdoms not fight with each other for land, wealth etc? Ashoka was a Hindu when he killed a million in Kalinga, wasn't he? What about the fate worse than death for generations upon generations of Shudras?

So, the point here is that only 'foreign' religions haven't been the cause of deaths and destruction in India or elsewhere. There's a saying in Punjabi - "Kade apni peerhi thalle vi sotta maar ke vekho", translated as 'Sometimes its wise to broom the dirt under our own chairs'

desijat
September 19th, 2013, 11:18 PM
Rathi ji,

You took me wrong, i said evils are everywhere. We should look with in before blaming and correcting others and this by the way is soul of hinduism. If you also start to blame others and insult, you are being no different than them :)

बुरा जो देखन मैं चला बुरा मिला न कोए
जो देखा आप को मुझसे बुरा न कोए


Dear Desijat,

Thanks for acknowledgement that what I told about Islam was true. Now I can see you still trying to defend that by saying about evils of Hinduism , which will not stand even for a second. So here I go



Pandit Mahendra Pal Arya , a renowned scholar of Arya Samaj trying to explain some facts about Islam and Arya Samaj. Please take a look.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cl5Mhl9Axjs
.....nges that's the biggest sin you gonna make.

rkumar
September 19th, 2013, 11:27 PM
Rathi ji,

You took me wrong, i said evils are everywhere. We should look with in before blaming and correcting others and this by the way is soul of hinduism. If you also start to blame others and insult, you are being no different than them :)

बुरा जो देखन मैं चला बुरा मिला न कोए
जो देखा आप को मुझसे बुरा न कोए

Sounds great in spiritual world, but stupidity of the highest order in matters of statecraft. Words of wisdom rarely stopped a war in human history. Even Lord Rama, Lord Krishna could not stop war. Only strength helps. Words of Chanakya become more useful than of Kabir. Conclusion is simple. No wisdom has universal application. This is why some wise person had to say; " Laaton ke bhoot baatn se nahi maante".

RK^2

RathiJi
September 19th, 2013, 11:31 PM
Rathi ji,

You took me wrong, i said evils are everywhere. We should look with in before blaming and correcting others and this by the way is soul of hinduism. If you also start to blame others and insult, you are being no different than them :)

बुरा जो देखन मैं चला बुरा मिला न कोए
जो देखा आप को मुझसे बुरा न कोए

Vikas Bhai,

we hindu,arya samaji sanatani believe in Vasudeva Kutumbukam so this whole world is our family. How can we see our neighbour sick mentally or physically. we need to help them n treat them to keep our neighbourhood n world clean :)

swaich
September 20th, 2013, 09:46 AM
No my dear friend you are entitled to differ. It's ur right. I said those things on basis of harsh reality. I can quote many facts about Islamic countries without even going there with help of neutral international agencies and testimony of non Islamic people living there. But before I do that here is a food for thought . Lets begin from reading about MUTAWEEN.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutaween

I am aware of this. It exists in some form or the other in a few Islamic countries as the article mentions Indonesia, Iran and Palestine apart from Saudi.

But my belief is that apart from Saudi, it isn't strictly enforced, at least not on the non-Muslims. These countries have strong orthodox lobbies and such Mutaween are created to keep these lobbies and groups happy.

Just Google how many beauty enhancing, cosmetic plastic surgeries women get in Iran and you will get an idea of how religious the general population really is. Pub and bar culture is prevalent in Malaysia and Indonesia. The bombings in Bali, Indonesia happened in a bar.

Remember Shiv Sena and Sri Ram Sena goons harassing and beating couples in pubs and protesting against V Day? This is similar. The only difference is that its government ordained, but not strictly enforced.

vicky84
September 20th, 2013, 01:25 PM
There are right and wrong interpretation all across the world.

Yes there are wrong interpretation of Islam across the world as well as in India.

Islam is mixed with terrorism. There are many sterotypes and notions about Islam like polygamy is allowed in Islam. However based on Kuran, it has to be taken in the right spirit. A Delhi court has prononced it's judgment, where Judge said: "There is no blanket sancation for polygamy in the Kuran." Polygamy is infact banned in some Muslim countries like Tunisia, Turkey. An eye opening article on the same:

Towards a progressive interpretation of Islam

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/towards-a-progressive-interpretation-of-islam/article4295248.ece

Excerpt:

Citing Muslim scriptures the judge avers that “polygamy (http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/kerala/courts-must-accept-muslim-wifes-assertions-in-a-polygamous-marriage/article139121.ece)is neither mandatory nor encouraged but merely permitted. The Koran’s conditional endorsement of polygamy stresses that self-interest or sexual desire should not be the reason for entering into a polygamous marriage” because the original purpose of allowing this practice was “to protect the social and financial standing of the widows and orphans in their community.”

RathiJi
September 20th, 2013, 01:32 PM
I am aware of this. It exists in some form or the other in a few Islamic countries as the article mentions Indonesia, Iran and Palestine apart from Saudi.

That's good You are aware of this. It was just a starting of what I wanted you to be aware of.


But my belief is that apart from Saudi, it isn't strictly enforced, at least not on the non-Muslims. These countries have strong orthodox lobbies and such Mutaween are created to keep these lobbies and groups happy.

Those Orthodox lobbies are muslims and justify these acts on the basis of their religious scriptures. Irony, govt. implement these rules too. I would like to give you one homework , as you and me both are aware of the fact that millions of non-muslims live in middle eastern countries. Please give me a list of Temples & Gurudwaras. Tell me also if they are allowed to build one ?


Just Google how many beauty enhancing, cosmetic plastic surgeries women get in Iran and you will get an idea of how religious the general population really is. Pub and bar culture is prevalent in Malaysia and Indonesia. The bombings in Bali, Indonesia happened in a bar.

So according to u cosmetic plastic surgery is the scale for being secular or communal. Well... you talked about Iran then try to find out how many women are flogged every day by religious police for dress code and how many for adultery & how many are in jail for human rights activism. Please try to understand you r trying to favor those who still punish women by stoning them to death.


Remember Shiv Sena and Sri Ram Sena goons harassing and beating couples in pubs and protesting against V Day? This is similar. The only difference is that its government ordained, but not strictly enforced.

So acc. to u such acts by individuals and by organized state machinery is same ???? give me a break.

Moreover, I am talking about the countries in west of India that is middle east and sub saharan Africa not the eastern once like Indonesia or Malaysia. There is one exception also in west that is Turkey. It's a predominently muslim nation but also secular like India. So I dont say things without facts.

RathiJi
September 20th, 2013, 01:36 PM
Yes there are wrong interpretation of Islam across the world as well as in India.

Islam is mixed with terrorism. There are many sterotypes and notions about Islam like polygamy is allowed in Islam. However based on Kuran, it has to be taken in the right spirit. A Delhi court has prononced it's judgment, where Judge said: "There is no blanket sancation for polygamy in the Kuran." Polygamy is infact banned in some Muslim countries like Tunisia, Turkey. An eye opening article on the same:

Towards a progressive interpretation of Islam

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/towards-a-progressive-interpretation-of-islam/article4295248.ece

Excerpt:

Citing Muslim scriptures the judge avers that “polygamy (http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/kerala/courts-must-accept-muslim-wifes-assertions-in-a-polygamous-marriage/article139121.ece)is neither mandatory nor encouraged but merely permitted. The Koran’s conditional endorsement of polygamy stresses that self-interest or sexual desire should not be the reason for entering into a polygamous marriage” because the original purpose of allowing this practice was “to protect the social and financial standing of the widows and orphans in their community.”


The concern is not if Kuran,Vedas or Bible allows it. We live in a democratic republic of India where our constitution provides equal rights for all Indians irrespective of caste,creed,religion or race. The primary question is why it is allowed in India for a certain sect if their religion says so. There are many things which Hinduism books says shall we implement all those for Hindus here in India ???

vicky84
September 20th, 2013, 02:28 PM
The concern is not if Kuran,Vedas or Bible allows it. We live in a democratic republic of India where our constitution provides equal rights for all Indians irrespective of caste,creed,religion or race. The primary question is why it is allowed in India for a certain sect if their religion says so. There are many things which Hinduism books says shall we implement all those for Hindus here in India ???

People often quote that Kuran allows it. Also people mix Islam with terriorism by quoting Kuran.

As far as polygamy is concerned, it is often abused by people. That is why I quoted that article. Polygamy was also abused by Harayan's former Deputy CM Chandar Mohan by converting to Islam.

Coming back to your question, why it is allowed in India. One has to recognize the fact that India is a very diverse country. India has people of different religions living here for thousands of years. Therefore, in a democratic country, you have to recognize different religions and their identity keeping in a view that it does not hurt others. That is why India celebrate different festivals. That is why we have public holidays on Eid, Diwali etc. So is different norms for people of different religions. Muslims cannot marry by Hindu's rituals and vice versa. But yes, if someone abuse the law, then there is a provision of punishment under the law.

RathiJi
September 20th, 2013, 02:49 PM
People often quote that Kuran allows it. Also people mix Islam with terriorism by quoting Kuran.

As far as polygamy is concerned, it is often abused by people. That is why I quoted that article. Polygamy was also abused by Harayan's former Deputy CM Chandar Mohan by converting to Islam.

Coming back to your question, why it is allowed in India. One has to recognize the fact that India is a very diverse country. India has people of different religions living here for thousands of years. Therefore, in a democratic country, you have to recognize different religions and their identity keeping in a view that it does not hurt others. That is why India celebrate different festivals. That is why we have public holidays on Eid, Diwali etc. So is different norms for different religion of people. Muslims cannot marry with Hindu's ritual and vice versa. But yes, if someone abuse the law, then there is a provision of punishment under the law.

Vicky Mohan,

Oh come on and please stop glorifying the diversity of country. Do you know what aritcle 44 is all about and how it is being abused. Let me tell you


Indian constitution Article 44 states "The State shall endeavor to secure for citizens a uniform civil code throughout the territory of India."

Instead of that their are personal law and unfortunately there is a All India Muslim Personal Law board , here are its objectives



To adopt suitable strategies for protection and continued applicability of Muslim Personal Law i.e. Shariat Application Act in India.
To strive for annulment or exempting the Muslims from the ambit of such direct, indirect or parallel legislation, whether already enacted or in the process of enactment or to be enacted in future, or rulings and judgements of the courts of law interfering in the application of Muslim Personal Law.
To generate awareness about the injunctions of Islamic Shariah regarding personal and social life of Muslims, and publication of literature for the purpose.
To formulate a comprehensive framework for promotion and enforcement of personal laws of Islamic Shariah among the Muslims.
To constitute Action Committees for protection of the Muslim Personal Law from time to time, and for striving to implement of the decisions of the Board throughout the country.
To constitute a permanent standing committee comprising Ulema and legal experts to study laws, rules, regulations and circulars issued by the central and state governments and other governmental and semi-governmental agencies or the Bills introduced in the Parliament and state legislation from the point of view of their impact on the Muslim Personal Law.
To promote sense of harmony, goodwill, brotherhood, cooperation and unity among followers of various schools of Islamic Shariah, and to advance unity, coordination among them for the protection of Muslim Personal Law.
To assess currently enforced Muhammadan Law in India in the light of Islamic Shariah, to arrange for study of various issues in the light of various schools of Islamic jurisprudence, and to find appropriate solutions to the issues facing the community, following the principles of Islamic Shariah, under the guidance of experts of Islamic Shariah and jurisprudence in the light of Holy Quran and Sunnah.
To constitute Study Teams and organise seminars, symposia, public lectures, assemblies and conferences and tours, and publish literature, use mass media for the purpose of achieving the above objects.


We people are living in fairy tales. Bhai chara, unity in diversity, ganga jamuna , Eid diwali, falana dhimkana . I am fed up of this Ostrich type attitude. We know something is going wrong in front of us but we just want to say some poetry.

VirJ
September 20th, 2013, 03:34 PM
Its not the wrong or right interpretation of anything. Muslim believes that Mohammad led a perfect life and his life is the guide for them. Mohammad had multiple wifes and he did destroy all the idols (Arabs were idol worshippers earlier) and killed the idol worshippers. Even today all the idols are buried under the Mosque in Mecca. He spread his religion by sword and that is what they call jihad (Holy War).

That is why it is easy to build a Muslim army against Hindus. Now the solution lies in first accept that there is a danger and then work toward a solution.

The solution is probably just to make our self strong enough and be ready for any danger. Talking hollow secular talks will lead no where. We have to engage with Muslims not through appeasements or reservation but to lift them, educate them. These appeasements will make the things worse.

vicky84
September 20th, 2013, 04:26 PM
Rathi Sahab,

India has a pluralistic legal system because India has been a land of people of different religions. Therefore India has to give a due regard to all religions, cultures etc while drafting a legal framework which could work in way that it does not violate Human rights. Plural legal system also exist in western countries like Australia where Indigenous population has been recognised by the constitution. So you cannot ignore diversity. But problem occurs when there is violation of human rights. In a democratic and secular country, such violation of human rights should not be allowed. For example Shriah law isn't compatible with democracy and international human rights law. Path in India is not that easy because of absence of modernisation in traditional laws of different religions.


Vicky Mohan,

Oh come on and please stop glorifying the diversity of country. Do you know what aritcle 44 is all about and how it is being abused. Let me tell you



Instead of that their are personal law and unfortunately there is a All India Muslim Personal Law board , here are its objectives



To adopt suitable strategies for protection and continued applicability of Muslim Personal Law i.e. Shariat Application Act in India.
To strive for annulment or exempting the Muslims from the ambit of such direct, indirect or parallel legislation, whether already enacted or in the process of enactment or to be enacted in future, or rulings and judgements of the courts of law interfering in the application of Muslim Personal Law.
To generate awareness about the injunctions of Islamic Shariah regarding personal and social life of Muslims, and publication of literature for the purpose.
To formulate a comprehensive framework for promotion and enforcement of personal laws of Islamic Shariah among the Muslims.
To constitute Action Committees for protection of the Muslim Personal Law from time to time, and for striving to implement of the decisions of the Board throughout the country.
To constitute a permanent standing committee comprising Ulema and legal experts to study laws, rules, regulations and circulars issued by the central and state governments and other governmental and semi-governmental agencies or the Bills introduced in the Parliament and state legislation from the point of view of their impact on the Muslim Personal Law.
To promote sense of harmony, goodwill, brotherhood, cooperation and unity among followers of various schools of Islamic Shariah, and to advance unity, coordination among them for the protection of Muslim Personal Law.
To assess currently enforced Muhammadan Law in India in the light of Islamic Shariah, to arrange for study of various issues in the light of various schools of Islamic jurisprudence, and to find appropriate solutions to the issues facing the community, following the principles of Islamic Shariah, under the guidance of experts of Islamic Shariah and jurisprudence in the light of Holy Quran and Sunnah.
To constitute Study Teams and organise seminars, symposia, public lectures, assemblies and conferences and tours, and publish literature, use mass media for the purpose of achieving the above objects.


We people are living in fairy tales. Bhai chara, unity in diversity, ganga jamuna , Eid diwali, falana dhimkana . I am fed up of this Ostrich type attitude. We know something is going wrong in front of us but we just want to say some poetry.

prashantacmet
September 20th, 2013, 05:05 PM
I will agree with Christians fighting Christians because of WWI and WWII and other wars in Europe. However I am a bit astonished about other two. Will you please educate us about the number of people killed by Hindus. Ever heard of Genghis Khan , Taimur and other Muslim invaders who butchered locals in thousands ? Did Hindus burn any library in entire human history? Did Hindus convert people by force? Did Hindus bring slaves after any war and sold men and women?

RK^2

RK ji.....Genghis khan was not a muslim..due to this "khan" title most people think him a muslim..but infact "khan" was first used by Mongols..and..after the 2-3 generations of Genghis khan.. his lineage accepted islam...Timur belonged to his lineage....Genghis Khan's religion is speculated to be Shamanism or Tengriism, which was very likely among nomadic Mongol-Turkic tribes of Central Asia. But he was very tolerant religiously, he consulted Christian missionaries, Muslim merchants, and the Taoist monk Qiu Chuji.

RathiJi
September 20th, 2013, 05:19 PM
Rathi Sahab,

India has a pluralistic legal system because India has been a land of people of different religions. Therefore India has to give a due regard to all religions, cultures etc while drafting a legal framework which could work in way that it does not violate Human rights. Plural legal system also exist in western countries like Australia where Indigenous population has been recognised by the constitution. So you cannot ignore diversity. But problem occurs when there is violation of human rights. In a democratic and secular country, such violation of human rights should not be allowed. For example Shriah law isn't compatible with democracy and international human rights law. Path in India is not that easy because of absence of modernisation in traditional laws of different religions.

Vicky,

It's completely wrong. India doesn't have pluralistic legal system according to the constitution framed in 1950. It had during the time of Mughals & Britishers. But post independence our people & leaders chosen the path of democracy & equality of all sects, religions, cast, creed everything.

Let's have a look on some human rights cases. In 21st century , when we are nuclear power and biggest democracy in world, a muslim man can divorce his wife by saying triple talaq and she can't challenge it in any legal courts of India. What a shame ? It has happened thousands of time but many times got the limelight of nation in 1987, Shah bano case. read about it. The APEX court , highest body of indian legal system slammed union govt. and directed them to implement Uniform Civil code according to constitution.

In the biggest democracy and a competent power, a muslim man can marry as many as four wives and produce children with all of them. It's a shame as well as burden on nation as economically and socially. The demographics have changed in many areas and they are being changed.

Muslims live in every corner of earth but apart from Muslim countries it is only India which provides laws to enjoy 7th century customs & traditions. Even turkey a predominantly Muslim country penalise polygamy. It is a crime there.

As per Hindu mythology Lord Krishna had 16000 wives so shall we hindu ask govt. to allow us the same ? Do you want to modernise people or want them to stick to the same 7th century mindset. Respecting all religions doesn't mean playing with constitution and social fabric of country. I think our supreme court knows best about Indian constitution if there is any scope for personal law for muslim or not. Here is Shah Bano case. Just read it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shah_Bano_case

vicky84
September 20th, 2013, 05:49 PM
Vicky,

It's completely wrong. India doesn't have pluralistic legal system according to the constitution framed in 1950. It had during the time of Mughals & Britishers. But post independence our people & leaders chosen the path of democracy & equality of all sects, religions, cast, creed everything.



Rathi bhai,

India has a legal pluralism. Let me quote one the source:


http://www.ichrp.org/files/reports/50/135_report_en.pdf

In India and Bangladesh, different religious communities have their own personal laws (some codified and some not) that govern many aspects of marriage and family, though all cases are heard in a unitary court system. In Malaysia, a person’s religious identity automatically determines which law governs his or her family disputes, whereas in Cameroon a person is free to choose whether family matters are governed by customary laws or by general civil law which is open and applicable to all. Under the 1923 Treaty of Lausanne, Muslims in Thrace, Greece, may choose to use Muslim laws for certain matters.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/shariah-courts-for-women-by-women-to-come-up-in-4-cities/1139298/

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2013-04-29/mumbai/38903151_1_courts-darul-qaza-matrimonial-disputes

"This court will decide within the framework of Muslim personal laws and mainly deal with matrimonial disputes. This is a kind of domestic tribunal set up by the Muslim community."

AbhikRana
September 20th, 2013, 10:26 PM
No mind is this world is unbiased no matter what one might or might not say. It is always coloured by one's experience.

Yes, one's actions can be rational or irrational, but that again can be very subjective in the same manner as one man's fight for freedom might be insurgency for the other.

Coming back to the point of interpretation, I am not singling out Holy Quran and I am also talking about the PRESENT TIMES,the times that we live in and the times that would follow from the present and because of the present.

Yes, there was a renaissance in the Christian world where the Christian world in a way moved away from Christianity being a state religion or Christianity being a guiding force in all policy matters. Similarly, Hinduism has undergone its share of reforms from Sati pratha to abolition of polygamy.

Why is the INTERPRETATION that you referred to, stopping the Muslims from reforming? Take any part of the world which has Muslim habitation, you will find commotion and turmoil. I am unable to understand and that is the reason I had put this question to you and I still seek an answer to it if you can help me find it since you raised this topic in the context of the Holy Quran as principles of faith being nothing more than the way they are interpreted and acted upon.




A fair question. Now I would request you to read with an unbiased mind. Do you think Quran is the only one which has been wrongly interpreted?

Do you know how many Christians were burnt by the clergy for being witches and heretics? Do you know why the Christians of Europe launched the Crusades in far away Holy Lands aka current day Israel/Palestine? Do you know how Christian missionaries justified the slave trade and forced conversions of natives in Africa, Asia and Latin America?

Yes, that was all justified and supported by the so called interpretations of the Bible.

Even the Khalistani militants justified killing Hindu merchants and other innocents as a part of their fight against Khalsa's enemies as mentioned in the Guru Granth Sahib.

So, the point here is that since ages, some people have tried to convince others of their own beliefs and views by taking support from their holy books. This is nothing new. It has always been people of some religion or the other trying to justify their own actions or thoughts by quoting their religion. If I wish to wage war on Hindus or India in general, like in those videos I will find a couplet or a verse from Quran to support my theory. On the other hand, if I wish to live in peace, I will find a verse that justifies my actions.

My sole criteria for not condemning Islam as some lunacy is that I see more peaceful followers than violent, evil ones. I have the good fortune of closely interacting with many classmates, colleagues and friends who have really widened my perspectives of Islam and the society we live in.

swaich
September 20th, 2013, 10:53 PM
That's good You are aware of this. It was just a starting of what I wanted you to be aware of.
Thank you, sir. I am glad you are expanding the horizons of my knowledge. Please feel free to share other nuggets which you think are the only one to be aware of.




Those Orthodox lobbies are muslims and justify these acts on the basis of their religious scriptures. Irony, govt. implement these rules too. I would like to give you one homework , as you and me both are aware of the fact that millions of non-muslims live in middle eastern countries. Please give me a list of Temples & Gurudwaras. Tell me also if they are allowed to build one ?

Ahh, another task to make me more educated, just like you. I hope my effort is upto the mark.

The following list contains list of Gurudwaras in Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, Malaysia, Indonesia and UAE. As you'd know all of these are Islamic countries. I don't have time to dig up similar info for temples, but maybe this list gives you enough idea if they built it or transplanted it via massive helicopters from India.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gurdwaras_in_Asia



So according to u cosmetic plastic surgery is the scale for being secular or communal. Well... you talked about Iran then try to find out how many women are flogged every day by religious police for dress code and how many for adultery & how many are in jail for human rights activism. Please try to understand you r trying to favor those who still punish women by stoning them to death.

Its one of the scales like others. But the point is that every country makes a few rules to pander to their right wingers. Doesn't mean the local people follow it to the T. Some have moral police, some ban Beef :)


So acc. to u such acts by individuals and by organized state machinery is same ???? give me a break.
Not individuals, parties like Shiv Sena. You can have your break.


Moreover, I am talking about the countries in west of India that is middle east and sub saharan Africa not the eastern once like Indonesia or Malaysia. There is one exception also in west that is Turkey. It's a predominently muslim nation but also secular like India.
Why make a distinction between Islamic countries? Lets factor them all into our discussion as it only supports my point that its a folly to generalize them all.


So I dont say things without facts.

Let me give you an example of your facts:

All Islamic countries have moral police.
All Islamic countries have laws that forbid you from keeping idols at home or worshiping your own Gods.
All Islamic countries don't allow non-Muslims to build their places of worship.

BUSTED.

swaich
September 20th, 2013, 11:03 PM
No mind is this world is unbiased no matter what one might or might not say. It is always coloured by one's experience.

Yes, one's actions can be rational or irrational, but that again can be very subjective in the same manner as one man's fight for freedom might be insurgency for the other.

Coming back to the point of interpretation, I am not singling out Holy Quran and I am also talking about the PRESENT TIMES,the times that we live in and the times that would follow from the present and because of the present.

Yes, there was a renaissance in the Christian world where the Christian world in a way moved away from Christianity being a state religion or Christianity being a guiding force in all policy matters. Similarly, Hinduism has undergone its share of reforms from Sati pratha to abolition of polygamy.

Why is the INTERPRETATION that you referred to, stopping the Muslims from reforming? Take any part of the world which has Muslim habitation, you will find commotion and turmoil. I am unable to understand and that is the reason I had put this question to you and I still seek an answer to it if you can help me find it since you raised this topic in the context of the Holy Quran as principles of faith being nothing more than the way they are interpreted and acted upon.

The reason I gave historical examples, is because when evaluating a religion or its followers, its unfair and wrong sampling to only look at a specific time period. For eg. If I were to look at Sikhism during Abdali's reign, I would say it was about to die. But about 20 years later, it was flourishing under Ranjeet Singh.

But still, if you insist we can take the present times. I think the root of the problem is that still most Muslims are poor, uneducated and backward. If I had the data, I would like to compare incidents of violence in Islamic countries with low levels of literacy and Islamic countries with high literacy. I am sure the latter would have lower rates of violence. Or maybe I will be proved wrong. But it will definitely an interesting analysis.

I agree, everywhere we look Muslim countries are in the grip of violence and upheaval. But at the same time, there are some that are relatively peaceful. But surely the violence of a few (in my opinion) makes more noise than the peace of majority.

prashantacmet
September 20th, 2013, 11:11 PM
I agree, everywhere we look Muslim countries are in the grip of violence and upheaval. But at the same time, there are some that are relatively peaceful. But surely the violence of a few (in my opinion) makes more noise than the peace of majority.

"some are peaceful"... yeh baat to bilkul theek hai....par aapne wo 100 main se 75 wala scale nahi maana....aap apna khud ka bata do..wo "some" kitne honge out of 100?...

ya fir

duniya main jitne bhi religions hai unme se sabse jyada fanatics islam main hai..yeh maante ho ya nahi....?

AbhikRana
September 20th, 2013, 11:14 PM
There is a huge diaspora of Sikhs settled in the West, both highly educated and the so-called averagely educated. Yet I am yet to come across one act of terrorism indulged in by them outside India except for the Kanishka Bombing (PanAm flight) over in Canada in which all 329 innocents on board were killed.

There is a huge diaspora of Hindus in the West and I am yet to come across a single terrorist act carried out by them.

Coming to the point of Education playing a key role in terrorism, can we forget that most of the terror attacks in the west have been executed by HIGHLY educated muslim youth.

Look at any muslim country, either the muslims are at war with the minorities or in case there are no minorities, with their own sub-sects. Why is violence or the Holy War still an integral part of their faith? Why is their interpretation so wrong all across the world if the Holy Quran also preaches peace?




The reason I gave historical examples, is because when evaluating a religion or its followers, its unfair and wrong sampling to only look at a specific time period. For eg. If I were to look at Sikhism during Abdali's reign, I would say it was about to die. But about 20 years later, it was flourishing under Ranjeet Singh.

But still, if you insist we can take the present times. I think the root of the problem is that still most Muslims are poor, uneducated and backward. If I had the data, I would like to compare incidents of violence in Islamic countries with low levels of literacy and Islamic countries with high literacy. I am sure the latter would have lower rates of violence. Or maybe I will be proved wrong. But it will definitely an interesting analysis.

I agree, everywhere we look Muslim countries are in the grip of violence and upheaval. But at the same time, there are some that are relatively peaceful. But surely the violence of a few (in my opinion) makes more noise than the peace of majority.

swaich
September 20th, 2013, 11:15 PM
"some are peaceful"... yeh baat to bilkul theek hai....par aapne wo 100 main se 75 wala scale nahi maante ho....aap apna khud ka bata do..wo "some" kitne honge out of 100

I don't know exactly that number. But tell me honestly, do you? Nobody does. So why condemn?

prashantacmet
September 20th, 2013, 11:17 PM
I don't know exactly that number. But tell me honestly, do you? Nobody does. So why condemn?

chaliye sahab theek hai.par aduniya main jitne bhi religions hai unme se sabse jyada fanatics islam main hai..yeh maante ho ya nahi....?

RathiJi
September 21st, 2013, 12:07 AM
Thank you, sir. I am glad you are expanding the horizons of my knowledge. Please feel free to share other nuggets which you think are the only one to be aware of.

your welcome Swaich.




Ahh, another task to make me more educated, just like you. I hope my effort is upto the mark.

The following list contains list of Gurudwaras in Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, Malaysia, Indonesia and UAE. As you'd know all of these are Islamic countries. I don't have time to dig up similar info for temples, but maybe this list gives you enough idea if they built it or transplanted it via massive helicopters from India.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gurdwaras_in_Asia

Again a piece of sheer ignorance and less knowledge from you. Malaysia is a federal constitutional monarchy which gurantees the freedom of religion so no question. Indonesian constitution also stipulate freedom of religion. Now about Dubai,i.e, UAE this gurudwara was bulit only a few years ago and I am the one who followed this event and contributed to the cause. The land was given by govt. to build the compound but it's the govt which subsidises 95% of mosques and there is a ban on non muslims for proselytising n distributing religious text. So is this the same respect to Hinduism and Sikhism ? Pakistan, I dont think I need to tell you about the state of minorities there including Hindu,Sikh,Christian,Bahai, Ahmedi. Abdus Salam one out of two muslim scientists who ever won nobel prize was insulted like anything coz he was a Ahmedi. Iran, The religion, politics, civil code everything is Islamlic(shitte) and these gurudwaras which are listed in Wikipedia doesn't exist. Moreover the supreme leader is always a Shia Iman and read his views on ur nation . Khameni

http://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/RestOfAsia/Iran-s-supreme-leader-backs-Kashmir-struggle/Article1-628346.aspx

I will be grateful to u if u cud atleast give the same exaggerated list of Hindu dieties temples too in those countries which are Islamic by constitution.



Its one of the scales like others. But the point is that every country makes a few rules to pander to their right wingers. Doesn't mean the local people follow it to the T. Some have moral police, some ban Beef :)

Banning beef means not killing one animal to eat and stoning to death means killing a fellow human being for so called morals. :)



Not individuals, parties like Shiv Sena. You can have your break.

That's why Shiv Sena is not a pan-indian party even with majority of population as Hindu. You know the difference between state and individual. State means the constitution and govt. following it and legal framework enforcing. Is it the same in case of Shiv Sena ???



Why make a distinction between Islamic countries? Lets factor them all into our discussion as it only supports my point that its a folly to generalize them all.

I am not making any distinction. The countries which are Islamic by constitution and export Islamic extremism and terrorism I am talking about them only.


Let me give you an example of your facts:

All Islamic countries have moral police.
All Islamic countries have laws that forbid you from keeping idols at home or worshiping your own Gods.
All Islamic countries don't allow non-Muslims to build their places of worship.

Just take it as facts.

Yes, All Islamic countries have moral police. Islamic countries doesn't means muslims in majority it means constitutionaly Islamic. Like India ia Hindu in majority but it is not a Hindu country.

Yes, All Islamic countries have laws and even extremists and terrorists supported by those laws who insults n prohibit other religions specially hinduism.

Yes, All Islamic countries don't allow non-muslims to build their places of worship.


BUSTED.

Long live the dream. :)

vicky84
September 21st, 2013, 11:04 AM
We have heard about atrocities against Hindus in Pakistan. But the video below shows completely opposite to that. There are many Hindu temples in Karachi. Hindus live proudly without any fear or any interference. And also how good the Hindu community is doing in Pakistan:

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/special-report/special-report-the-hindus-of-pakistan-aired-june-2006/283458

RathiJi
September 21st, 2013, 03:28 PM
We have heard about atrocities against Hindus in Pakistan. But the video below shows completely opposite to that. There are many Hindu temples in Karachi. Hindus live proudly without any fear or any interference. And also how good the Hindu community is doing in Pakistan:

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/special-report/special-report-the-hindus-of-pakistan-aired-june-2006/283458

Same channel reporting in 2012. Have a look. You brothers & sisters die and still you do cheap publicity stunts. I dont know where do you live but must be near to Delhi, come here I will take you to meet 200 Hindus of Pakistan living as refugees. Talk with them n know abt condition of ur religion there.

Vicky Mohan,

Pakistan to chor do family ke saath KhalaPar me nahi reh paoge. Meerut ke KhairNagar,JaliKothi me nahi reh paoge.

vicky84
September 21st, 2013, 03:53 PM
Same channel reporting in 2012. Have a look. You brothers & sisters die and still you do cheap publicity stunts. I dont know where do you live but must be near to Delhi, come here I will take you to meet 200 Hindus of Pakistan living as refugees. Talk with them n know abt condition of ur religion there.

Vicky Mohan,

Pakistan to chor do family ke saath KhalaPar me nahi reh paoge. Meerut ke KhairNagar,JaliKothi me nahi reh paoge.

Bro, I have no intention to offend anyone. And if you got offended by my post, I am extremely sorry about that. The reason why I posted that link was to show other side of what we hear about Hindus in Pakistan. Yes there is no denial in about human right violation in Pak. I am not debating that at all. But if there is some other side of it, we should know that as well.

RathiJi
September 21st, 2013, 04:24 PM
Bro, I have no intention to offend anyone. And if you got offended by my post, I am extremely sorry about that. The reason why I posted that link was to show other side of what we hear about Hindus in Pakistan. Yes there is no denial in about human right violation in Pak. I am not debating that at all. But if there is some other side of it, we should know that as well.

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/news/video-story/243341

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/news/video-story/246318

Ah! you are very much interested in other side. I wish to god once to give u same chance as of Pakistani Hindus in lifetime.

vicky84
September 21st, 2013, 04:53 PM
http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/news/video-story/243341

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/news/video-story/246318

Ah! you are very much interested in other side. I wish to god once to give u same chance as of Pakistani Hindus in lifetime.

Chance mila to jaroor jaaonga!!

vicky84
September 21st, 2013, 05:03 PM
Abdus Salam one out of two muslim scientists who ever won nobel prize was insulted like anything coz he was a Ahmedi.


Can you share about when he got insulted?

RathiJi
September 21st, 2013, 05:20 PM
Can you share about when he got insulted?

They even deleted muslim word from his grave as he was Ahmedi. :). Anyways this internet is quite big search urself about the scientist...

swaich
September 21st, 2013, 05:21 PM
chaliye sahab theek hai.par aduniya main jitne bhi religions hai unme se sabse jyada fanatics islam main hai..yeh maante ho ya nahi....?

Currently, I agree, it does appear so. But let me also add that this itself isn't a reason to condemn the religion or all its followers. The reasons and the circumstances that support fanaticism cannot be ignored.

DrRajpalSingh
September 21st, 2013, 06:09 PM
Could anybody suggest how we can stop religion bashing,

or would this discussion continue with half baked data/or

no data to support the views posted indefinitely !!

If some data based facts are produced the purpose of the discussion

would be better fulfilled otherwise one will be where one was at the

starting of the thread !!!

RathiJi
September 21st, 2013, 06:24 PM
Can you share about when he got insulted?

Okay. If I said something the onus is on to prove. I know it's not easy to prove the truth. So here I post one reprt from the Telegraph from UK. Please read it and if you want I will give you reports of The DAWN & THE EXPRESS TRIBUNE ( both Pakistani News papers former started by Jinnah ).

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/robcrilly/100173926/why-abdus-salam-pakistans-great-physicist-has-been-written-out-of-history-by-his-own-country/

No half truth will survive without facts. Lets all be factual.

DrRajpalSingh
September 21st, 2013, 09:25 PM
Okay. If I said something the onus is on to prove. I know it's not easy to prove the truth. So here I post one reprt from the Telegraph from UK. Please read it and if you want I will give you reports of The DAWN & THE EXPRESS TRIBUNE ( both Pakistani News papers former started by Jinnah ).

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/robcrilly/100173926/why-abdus-salam-pakistans-great-physicist-has-been-written-out-of-history-by-his-own-country/

No half truth will survive without facts. Lets all be factual.



Can you or somebody else tell what Abdus Salam has to to with the topic of thread.

If you want to discuss him, a new thread could be appropriate choice for the purpose!

RathiJi
September 21st, 2013, 10:27 PM
Can you or somebody else tell what Abdus Salam has to to with the topic of thread.

If you want to discuss him, a new thread could be appropriate choice for the purpose!


Can you or somebody else tell what Abdus Salam has to to with the topic of thread.

If you want to discuss him, a new thread could be appropriate choice for the purpose!

Sir, I will tell why and how Abdus Salam, i.e, the great Physicist is being discussed here. Firstly, I am not the one who started this thread and definitely I'm not the only one becoz of whom name of Abdus Salam appeared in this thread.

This thread is titled as Psedo Seculars & modi baiters. Well... I do not have problem with the latter one. All are free to bash any politician but defending these sick Muslim countries of middle east where every day thousands of people are dying ? The terrorism is prevalent and people are being gassed. Sir, We are on a war inside our nation with Pseudo secular people or the one those wearing a skin of secularism. That terrorism that prophecy penetrated into my country We lost many people in bomb blasts & terrorist attacks starting from Kashmir to Kanyakumari. Sir, I dont know weather I would be contributing to Jatland in future because I found it more autocratic. I will do the ground work instead. But before doing so I would like to call upon every Jatland member to read this post and like it if they agree with whatever I am saying. First of all I want to make it clear that I am not a Hindu conservative. I don't have problem with Buddhsim, Judasim, Christianity , Shantoism, Sikhism, Jainism, indigenous tribes etc. I do not have problem with old testament, new testament, Bible, Geeta, Guru granth etc etc. But there is a problem going on with ISLAM and it's scriptures we all need to accept it. I would have never commented on such topics if it never took live of compatriots. Why ?

1. People discreate Amar Jawan jyoti in India because muslims in Mayanmar were killed by buddhist ?
2. Why there was outrage and gathering of muslims in India when Saddam was hanged by USA in Baghdad with help of other muslim nations ?
3. Why there is a subsidy for muslims going to Saudi Arabia for a pilgrimage when India is a secular country and after death of many Jats ( Hindu ) cheif minister comes in front of camera wearing a skull cap waving hands to Mullas to arabia.
4. Why a muslim can marry as many as 4 women and a hindu only one ?
5. Why there is no problem when a muslim muazzin cry the for prayer five times a day everywhere in India, but some Hindu's festivals are always targeted. ?
6. I am born n brought up in west up meaning among muslim friends too. why they always sided with Pakistan whenever there was a cricket match ??
7. Why muslims in India are poor and most illiterate and still chose Madarsa for education ??
8. Why everyday most of the muslims are getting killed while fighting among themselves only no others religion . Like Syria,Egypt, Yemen, Sudan, Somalia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan etc etc etc etc.

There are many questions but these Pseudo seculars in India are just not needed. They always work for other nations.

I request all the members of Jatland to read this post and like if they understand what i said. This needs to be discussed and debated and if Jatland is autocratic I will do it somewhere else.


Latest peace initiative

http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/1.548088

upendersingh
September 22nd, 2013, 12:57 AM
I dont know where do you live but must be near to Delhi.Though I am not talking about him, but don't rely upon the location mentioned in the profile of some member. Many members here live in some foreign country, but they mention their location somewhere in India. If someone criticizes Hinduism, India and its culture repeatedly without any solid logic, then there is strong possibility that one is NRI.

rkumar
September 22nd, 2013, 07:45 AM
Though I am not talking about him, but don't rely upon the location mentioned in the profile of some member. Many members here live in some foreign country, but they mention their location somewhere in India. If someone criticizes Hinduism, India and its culture repeatedly without any solid logic, then there is strong possibility that one is NRI.

Not necessarily. I have studied, lived and worked all over , including UK and USA. However, I am hardcore Jat. Same is true with others. As far as "Doglapan" is concerned, that has nothing to do where a person lives. Its purely a matter of conviction. I have come across Indians who migrated outside 200 years back and still hardcore Hindus. Visit any Hindu temple in USA and see how traditional the people are.

RK^2.

deshi-jat
September 22nd, 2013, 08:11 AM
Very nicely written


Sir, I will tell why and how Abdus Salam, i.e, the great Physicist is being discussed here. Firstly, I am not the one who started this thread and definitely I'm not the only one becoz of whom name of Abdus Salam appeared in this thread.

This thread is titled as Psedo Seculars & modi baiters. Well... I do not have problem with the latter one. All are free to bash any politician but defending these sick Muslim countries of middle east where every day thousands of people are dying ? The terrorism is prevalent and people are being gassed. Sir, We are on a war inside our nation with Pseudo secular people or the one those wearing a skin of secularism. That terrorism that prophecy penetrated into my country We lost many people in bomb blasts & terrorist attacks starting from Kashmir to Kanyakumari. Sir, I dont know weather I would be contributing to Jatland in future because I found it more autocratic. I will do the ground work instead. But before doing so I would like to call upon every Jatland member to read this post and like it if they agree with whatever I am saying. First of all I want to make it clear that I am not a Hindu conservative. I don't have problem with Buddhsim, Judasim, Christianity , Shantoism, Sikhism, Jainism, indigenous tribes etc. I do not have problem with old testament, new testament, Bible, Geeta, Guru granth etc etc. But there is a problem going on with ISLAM and it's scriptures we all need to accept it. I would have never commented on such topics if it never took live of compatriots. Why ?

1. People discreate Amar Jawan jyoti in India because muslims in Mayanmar were killed by buddhist ?
2. Why there was outrage and gathering of muslims in India when Saddam was hanged by USA in Baghdad with help of other muslim nations ?
3. Why there is a subsidy for muslims going to Saudi Arabia for a pilgrimage when India is a secular country and after death of many Jats ( Hindu ) cheif minister comes in front of camera wearing a skull cap waving hands to Mullas to arabia.
4. Why a muslim can marry as many as 4 women and a hindu only one ?
5. Why there is no problem when a muslim muazzin cry the for prayer five times a day everywhere in India, but some Hindu's festivals are always targeted. ?
6. I am born n brought up in west up meaning among muslim friends too. why they always sided with Pakistan whenever there was a cricket match ??
7. Why muslims in India are poor and most illiterate and still chose Madarsa for education ??
8. Why everyday most of the muslims are getting killed while fighting among themselves only no others religion . Like Syria,Egypt, Yemen, Sudan, Somalia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan etc etc etc etc.

There are many questions but these Pseudo seculars in India are just not needed. They always work for other nations.

I request all the members of Jatland to read this post and like if they understand what i said. This needs to be discussed and debated and if Jatland is autocratic I will do it somewhere else.


Latest peace initiative

http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/1.548088

AbhikRana
September 22nd, 2013, 08:19 AM
Swaich ji, you have raised a very good point - the reasons and circumstances that support fanaticism cannot be ignored. Can you and other members please throw light on these reasons so that we have broadbased understanding of why the muslims take to fanaticism/terrorism in the name of religion whereas others don't.

I guess this will also help us getting an answer to the earlier question which is, why is the interpretation of the Holy Quran so wrong all across the world that it leads to bloodshed and turmoil.


Currently, I agree, it does appear so. But let me also add that this itself isn't a reason to condemn the religion or all its followers. The reasons and the circumstances that support fanaticism cannot be ignored.

RathiJi
September 22nd, 2013, 12:02 PM
Swaich ji, you have raised a very good point - the reasons and circumstances that support fanaticism cannot be ignored. Can you and other members please throw light on these reasons so that we have broadbased understanding of why the muslims take to fanaticism/terrorism in the name of religion whereas others don't.

I guess this will also help us getting an answer to the earlier question which is, why is the interpretation of the Holy Quran so wrong all across the world that it leads to bloodshed and turmoil.

Brother,

Latest attack by Al-Shabab in Nairobi(Kenya), an Islamic Somali militant group. Two Indians among 39 dead (RIP). People are getting killed here or there with same agenda.

RathiJi
September 22nd, 2013, 01:11 PM
Chance mila to jaroor jaaonga!!

Just now as we debate here on Pseudo Secularism and state of minorities in Muslim countries. The peaceful followers of Islam are at their work.

25 dead & 40 injured in a bomb blast inside a church in Peshawar, Pakistan. Try for the Visa soon.

RathiJi
September 22nd, 2013, 07:37 PM
Not necessarily. I have studied, lived and worked all over , including UK and USA. However, I am hardcore Jat. Same is true with others. As far as "Doglapan" is concerned, that has nothing to do where a person lives. Its purely a matter of conviction. I have come across Indians who migrated outside 200 years back and still hardcore Hindus. Visit any Hindu temple in USA and see how traditional the people are.

RK^2.

You are absolutely right Rajendra Ji. It's all about character and conviction. Currently, we are suffering a lot from this "Dogalapan" hence out of frustration sometimes we think that all are same. But that's not the truth.

vicky84
September 22nd, 2013, 07:56 PM
========Deleted=====

RathiJi
September 22nd, 2013, 08:04 PM
भारत पाकिस्तान को बाद में देख लेंगे, तू पहले डिस्कशन करने की कुछ तमीज़ सिख ले। मेरे पास नॉनसेंस डिस्कस करने के लिए के लिए टाइम नहीं है।

Bold letters with anger. what happened Vicky any problem?

waise jo mera post tune quote kiya usme badtameezi wali baat bhi bata de main maafi maang leta hun .

This post is not a discussion between u & me. If you think some nonsense is going on better save ur time and stay away but don't talk like this.

cooljat
September 22nd, 2013, 10:19 PM
Truth hurts bro. Wonder for how long pseudo secularists will defend so called religion of peace .. thou it would be interesting to watch. Btw, looks like few of them already trapped in the web of secularism they built. ;)


Bold letters with anger. what happened Vicky any problem?

waise jo mera post tune quote kiya usme badtameezi wali baat bhi bata de main maafi maang leta hun .

This post is not a discussion between u & me. If you think some nonsense is going on better save ur time and stay away but don't talk like this.

AbhikRana
September 22nd, 2013, 10:22 PM
As has been pointed out by Sumit, innocent non-muslims have been killed in Nairobi and Pakistan by Muslim fanatics.

My question still remains: If the Holy Quran preaches peace, why do its followers all across the world kill innocent non-muslims in the name of religion. My question is for all those who talk of Islam being a religion of peace. At this moment, I have not taken any position and would like to analyze this phenomenon threadbare with an open mind.

desijat
September 23rd, 2013, 01:08 AM
I have a friend(Indian) who married a Hindu from Pakistan and living in Canada. Her husbands family lives in Karachi and have heard that there is no problem as it is shown. So a first hand account.
We have heard about atrocities against Hindus in Pakistan. But the video below shows completely opposite to that. There are many Hindu temples in Karachi. Hindus live proudly without any fear or any interference. And also how good the Hindu community is doing in Pakistan:

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/special-report/special-report-the-hindus-of-pakistan-aired-june-2006/283458

vicky84
September 23rd, 2013, 04:24 AM
Bold letters with anger. what happened Vicky any problem?

waise jo mera post tune quote kiya usme badtameezi wali baat bhi bata de main maafi maang leta hun .

This post is not a discussion between u & me. If you think some nonsense is going on better save ur time and stay away but don't talk like this.

Since you have asked, let me tell you. First of all discussion is not between you and me. But started getting personal. Infact your last post was not in a good taste at all.

vicky84
September 23rd, 2013, 04:51 AM
Just because there are extremist in some community does not mean one has to paint entire community with same brush. I don't think anyone here is supporting extremism. Good and bad people are in every community. But that does not mean one will malign entire community for wrong doings on some. Bad elements are also in Hindu community but that does not mean I will malign entire community. If the lunatic fringe in a community is the criteria to define a community then I am sorry. No community is this world would come as clean. In Hindus we have maoist, who are killing thousands of innocent people every year. But that does not mean a majority of Hindus are extremist.

A lot of countries in middle east are in grip of terrrorism and extremist. Dictators have ruled these countries for a long time. Administration had been week in these countries which in result gave an opportunity to bad elements to flourish. This is one of the reason why these countries are struggling to cope with lumpen elements. But that does not mean I will start maligining entire community for wrong doing of some bad elements. Every country in the world had a good and bad time.

RathiJi
September 23rd, 2013, 09:17 AM
Since you have asked, let me tell you. First of all discussion is not between you and me. But started getting personal. Infact your last post was not in a good taste at all.

Ib baat na ghuma nu bata last post pe konsi baat pe chingari lagi thee tere or key personal attack the nu bhi bata ?

DrRajpalSingh
September 23rd, 2013, 09:18 AM
Members are requested kindly to discuss views expressed in the posts and not the persons who post them.

This could lead to avoidance to much acrimonious situations being reported and re-reported by members against one another

and also smoothen healthy intellectual discussion.

Thanks

RathiJi
September 23rd, 2013, 09:18 AM
I have a friend(Indian) who married a Hindu from Pakistan and living in Canada. Her husbands family lives in Karachi and have heard that there is no problem as it is shown. So a first hand account.

Bahut badhiya chalo koi to sukhi hai wahan. Kyonki mere to musalman dost hai Pakistan ke yahan London me ve bhi dukhi hai Pakistan se :D

vicky84
September 23rd, 2013, 09:20 AM
Ib baat na ghuma nu bata last post pe konsi baat pe chingari lagi thee tere or key personal attack the nu bhi bata ?

Chingari tai tere lagi hui hai..Teri post Moderator ne edit bhi kari thi lekin tere baat samagh nahi aayi thi.. Tu pher personal ho gaya..Dhang se baat kar liya kar na to karan ki jaroorat na hai..

shekharjat
September 23rd, 2013, 09:28 AM
Chance mila to jaroor jaaonga!!

vicky bhai chance to mil hi jayega.......agar appme iccha ho delhi mai majnu ke tile parr makeshift camp hai ho aao ek baar milkar pata chal jayega ki kiya ho raha hai pakistan mai..........bhai 14 saal ki jaise hi hindu ladki hoti hai usse uthha kar le jate hai.. aur conveted karke shaadi ho jati hai.....masjid mai maulvi kehta hai ki ek kaafir ko islam mai lane ke liye .tumko jannat naseeb hogi.........

bhai ye to pakistan ki baat hai bhai yaha to india mai bhi bura haal hai..........muzaffranagar mai dange kui hoye...........

bhagwan ne aapko shi mai........lucky banaya jo app india mai ho imagine agar app pakistan mai hindu ke ghar paida ho gaye hote ............ek baar jarro sochana seriously bhai........rongte khade ho jate hai......

RathiJi
September 23rd, 2013, 09:30 AM
Chingari tai tere lagi hui hai..Teri post Moderator ne edit bhi kari thi lekin tere baat samagh nahi aayi thi.. Tu pher personal ho gaya..Dhang se baat kar liya kar na to karan ki jaroorat na hai..

Duniya bhar ki baat ghuman laag ra nu na bataya ja raha tere pe post me key personal attack tha , konsi post me. Jib te itni garmi te post likhi thee to ib bata bhi de garmi aayi ku kar thee ...

RathiJi
September 23rd, 2013, 09:31 AM
vicky bhai chance to mil hi jayega.......agar appme iccha ho delhi mai majnu ke tile parr makeshift camp hai ho aao ek baar milkar pata chal jayega ki kiya ho raha hai pakistan mai..........bhai 14 saal ki jaise hi hindu ladki hoti hai usse uthha kar le jate hai.. aur conveted karke shaadi ho jati hai.....masjid mai maulvi kehta hai ki ek kaafir ko islam mai lane ke liye .tumko jannat naseeb hogi.........

bhai ye to pakistan ki baat hai bhai yaha to india mai bhi bura haal hai..........muzaffranagar mai dange kui hoye...........

bhagwan ne aapko shi mai........lucky banaya jo app india mai ho imagine agar app pakistan mai hindu ke ghar paida ho gaye hote ............ek baar jarro sochana seriously bhai........rongte khade ho jate hai......

Iss bhai ku pehle hi invite kar rakha hai maine or even best wishes bhi de rakhi hai VISA ke liye.

shekharjat
September 23rd, 2013, 09:33 AM
भारत पाकिस्तान को बाद में देख लेंगे, तू पहले डिस्कशन करने की कुछ तमीज़ सिख ले। मेरे पास नॉनसेंस डिस्कस करने के लिए के लिए टाइम नहीं है।
vicky bhai bahut samman ke saath keh raha hu........apke pass jehadio ki nonsense defend karne ka full time hai parr ............koi sahi cheezz discuss karne ka time nahi...........chalo hum hi karle lete hai aapas mai discuss............

vicky84
September 23rd, 2013, 09:36 AM
Duniya bhar ki baat ghuman laag ra nu na bataya ja raha tere pe post me key personal attack tha , konsi post me. Jib te itni garmi te post likhi thee to ib bata bhi de garmi aayi ku kar thee ...

Tune pehle family ko leke likha tha, "family ke saath reh ke dekhna, UP mei"..Kyun bhai tu kaun hai merko order dene wala..Aab tu batayega merko kahan rehna hai..Uske baad tu Visa ke order den lag gaya merko.. Tu hai Kaun? Apna kaam kar ek aud nai padd kai.. faaltu ke drame na rache yahan pe.

shekharjat
September 23rd, 2013, 09:38 AM
I have a friend(Indian) who married a Hindu from Pakistan and living in Canada. Her husbands family lives in Karachi and have heard that there is no problem as it is shown. So a first hand account.

desi bhai..chalo ek kaam karte hai pakistan ke haalat thode sudhar jaye .......aur app jab india aao to app aur mai.........pakistan chalte hai jyada time bhi nahi lagega.........ambedgar stadium se bus chalti hai...........dono kuch jatto se milenge..meri urdu bhi thik thak hai koi hamme pehchaan bhi nahi payega..........aur kuch mandir aur gurudwaro mai bhi ho ayenge....aur asliyat bhi pata chal jayegi.......

rhetoric nahi hai........sachh bol rha hu mera hamesha se pakistan jane ka mann hai app ke saath aur achha rahega dono side of story jatland parr share karenge............

RathiJi
September 23rd, 2013, 09:50 AM
Tune pehle family ko leke likha tha, "family ke saath reh ke dekhna, UP mei"..Kyun bhai tu kaun hai merko order dene wala..Aab tu batayega merko kahan rehna hai..Uske baad tu Visa ke order den lag gaya merko.. Tu hai Kaun? Apna kaam kar ek aud nai padd kai.. faaltu ke drame na rache yahan pe.

Oh bhai baat sun mere bahut rishteydaar rehte hai MZN me obviously Jats or mera aana jaana bachpan se hai. Ye jo danga hua KhalaPar me isse pehle or iske baad bhi kya haalat hai mujhe kya is forum pe jitne Jat MZN ko jaante hai sabko pata hai. Kawaal me bhi mullo ne Malikpura ki ladki ko pareshan kiya tha. aaye din roz ki baatein hai ye. or teri meri kya family ki baat kar raha hai yahan sab ek hi to family hai , Gaurav or Sachin bhi hamari hi family se the or unki bahen bhi kya hua unke saath pata nahi tujhe.

Or rahi baat visa ke order dene ki , tu Pakistan ki pairvi kar raha tha or keh raha tha jaane me interested hai maine tujhe bas itna kaha "Try for visa soon". Kya pata hum jo Church, Mandir, Shia procession pr roz hamle ki khabar sun rahe ho vo galat ho. Tu sahi facts le kar aaye.

shekharjat
September 23rd, 2013, 10:26 AM
Oh bhai baat sun mere bahut rishteydaar rehte hai MZN me obviously Jats or mera aana jaana bachpan se hai. Ye jo danga hua KhalaPar me isse pehle or iske baad bhi kya haalat hai mujhe kya is forum pe jitne Jat MZN ko jaante hai sabko pata hai. Kawaal me bhi mullo ne Malikpura ki ladki ko pareshan kiya tha. aaye din roz ki baatein hai ye. or teri meri kya family ki baat kar raha hai yahan sab ek hi to family hai , Gaurav or Sachin bhi hamari hi family se the or unki bahen bhi kya hua unke saath pata nahi tujhe.

Or rahi baat visa ke order dene ki , tu Pakistan ki pairvi kar raha tha or keh raha tha jaane me interested hai maine tujhe bas itna kaha "Try for visa soon". Kya pata hum jo Church, Mandir, Shia procession pr roz hamle ki khabar sun rahe ho vo galat ho. Tu sahi facts le kar aaye.

bhai ji sahi baat west up ke jatto ko rooz ye jhelna padd rha hai........hum logo ki familio ..ke saath kuch na kuch rooj sunane mai aata hai.......jo log west up se hai wo sabb jante hai parr.........badnasibi jat samaj ki ajj iss dukh ki ghadi mai bhi kuch jat bhai hamara nahi musalmano ka favour lete hai........

rathi ji jab tak inn logo ki family ke saath koi bura bartav nahi karta ye hamme hi dosh denge.......mai to chaahunga kabhi kisi ki family ke saath bura na ho ...parr jispe gujarti hai usse hi pata chalta hai..........

bhai ek do log hi to joote ho sakte saare west up ke jaat to nahi jhoote abb iss post parr is baat ke liye attack mat karna ki maine family ki baat kardi.......bhai hum rooj jhel rahe hai agar tum hamara saath nahi de sakte to kam se kam hamre virodhio ki tarafdaari na kia karo.........

RathiJi
September 23rd, 2013, 12:29 PM
Friends & countrymen,

I am here attaching today's main/front page reports of renowned Pakistani newspaper, THE EXPRESS TRIBUNE.

http://tribune.com.pk/story/607996/sunday-mass-murder-front-page/

http://tribune.com.pk/story/607912/ahmadi-persecution-police-bow-to-clerics-to-tear-down-minarets/

http://tribune.com.pk/story/607981/and-then-they-were-gone/

The front page is full of stories and report of mass murder and persecution of minorities. There is one more important thing to note here that at the end of these reports you will find comment from many muslims and people of Pakistan. You will be surprised to learn that they all unequivocally condemn these attacks and think religion is responsible for it. Unlike few Indians.

People in Pakistan are also fed up of these so called Talibanized Mullas responsible for daily mayhem. But there is a lobby of Pseudo-secularists & communists active in India to support these Talibanized Mullas.

I can understand a mulla supporting terrorists as he can give a reason being muslim but I never understood the reasoning of Pseudo-secularist Hindus. We are at war with Pakistan or the idea of Pakistan since 1930's, damm it. We should think Zillion of times before supporting it. We fought three full scale wars 48,65,71 and Kargil too. We have lost many lives of our brave soldiers. On top that we are fighting a proxy war which every year take lives of many civilians too. There are Hafiz-Saeed, Bhatkals, Zaki-ur-rehman, Syed Salauddin and many more working day & night to bleed India and Indians. They ruined the culture the harmony the peace in sub-continent. This is not a fight between India & Pakistan or Religions , It is fight of Good & bad. Pehle bhi aisi ladaiyan hui hai or jab tak manavta rahegi hoti rahengi. Jab jab adharm(paap) badhega dharm(humanity) ki raksha karne ke liye yudh hoga or bhagwan khud saath denge dharm ki raksha karne walo ka.

यदा यदा हि धर्मस्य ग्लानिर्भवति भारत ।
अभ्युत्थानमधर्मस्य तदात्मानं सृजाम्यहम्

rajpaldular
September 23rd, 2013, 12:33 PM
भारत के लिए सेकुलरिज्म कितना खतरनाक हो सकता है ये नीचे दी गयी बातों से समझा जा सकता है:-


१. सेकुलरिज्म के नाम पर पाकिस्तानी सैनिकों के द्वारा हमारे सैनिकों के गले काटे जाने पर भी पाकिस्तान के विरुद्ध नहीं बोल पाते सेक्युलर नेता क्योंकि बोलते ही वोट बैंक हाथ से खिसक जायेगा अथात वोट बैंक क्या चाहता है समझ सकते हैं।


२. सेकुलरिज्म के चलते हिन्दू देवी देवताओं को गाली देने वाले और हिन्दुओं को काटने की धमकी देने वालों का समर्थन करना पड़ता है और उनके विरुद्ध बोलने में भय लगता है।


३. सेकुलरिज्म के चलते नेताओं को आतंकवादियों को मासूम और सताया हुआ बोलना पड़ता है चाहे वो खुले आम बम फोड़े, लोगो को गोलियों से भूने।


४. सेकुलरिज्म के चलते नेताओ को आतंकी को दी जाने वाली सजा के विरुद्ध बोलना पड़ता है और उनकी सजा को देश पर कलंक का नाम देते हैं चाहे वो खुलेआम लोगों की जान ले ले।


५. सेकुलरिज्म के नाम पर अपने ही स्वाभिमान को बेच कर उन लोगो के चरण चुम्बन पड़ता है जो भारत माता को डायन कहने से नहीं हिचकिचाते और श्री राम को गाली देते हैं।


६. सेकुलरिज्म के नाम पर हिन्दू संतो को गालिया दी जाती हैं चाहे उनको फंसाया जा रहा हो पर मुस्लिम अथवा इसाई धर्मगुरूओ पर अपराध सिद्ध भी हो जाये तो उनको बचाने के लिए धर्म का सहारा लिया जाता है।


७. सेकुलरिज्म के नाम पर अपनी ही संस्कृति को गालियाँ दी जाती है और दूसरी संस्कृति जो इस देश का विनाश का सपना देखती है, सम्मान दिया जाता है।


ऐसे हजारों बाते हैं जो सेकुलरिज्म के नाम पर देश में हो रही हैं एवं शिक्षित युवा तक ऐसे सेक्युलर लोगों की बातो में आकर जय चन्द की भूमिका निभा रहे हैं और देश को मिस्त्र और लेबनान की तरह गृह युद्ध की और ले जा रहे हैं।

RathiJi
September 23rd, 2013, 01:31 PM
Tune pehle family ko leke likha tha, "family ke saath reh ke dekhna, UP mei"..Kyun bhai tu kaun hai merko order dene wala..Aab tu batayega merko kahan rehna hai..Uske baad tu Visa ke order den lag gaya merko.. Tu hai Kaun? Apna kaam kar ek aud nai padd kai.. faaltu ke drame na rache yahan pe.

The post on which Vicky felt insulted


Vicky Mohan,

Pakistan to chor do family ke saath KhalaPar me nahi reh paoge. Meerut ke KhairNagar,JaliKothi me nahi reh paoge.

I am not able to understand where I am ordering you or insulting you in this post. If anyone here understand, Please tell me.

This is perfectly true that no one from Hindu community could live easily in these areas with their family.


Tu hai Kaun?

For you, I am only a member of Jatland.

cooljat
September 23rd, 2013, 05:47 PM
"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its
votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in
a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic
apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries, improvident
habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of
commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the
followers of the Prophet rule or live.

A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and
refinement, the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that
in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his
absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine,
must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of
Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.

Individual Muslims may show splendid qualities, but the
influence of the religion paralyses the social development of
those who follow it.

No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from
being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing
faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa,
raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that
Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the
science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization
of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient
Rome."

Sir Winston Churchill; (Source: The River War, first edition,
Vol. II, pages 248-50 London)



"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog." - Churchill

desijat
September 23rd, 2013, 08:16 PM
आप और यहाँ भतेरे लोग भी तो हिंदुस्तान से दुखी है, वो भी आप जैसी सोच वाले होंगे ...




Bahut badhiya chalo koi to sukhi hai wahan. Kyonki mere to musalman dost hai Pakistan ke yahan London me ve bhi dukhi hai Pakistan se :D

desijat
September 23rd, 2013, 08:21 PM
desi bhai..chalo ek kaam karte hai pakistan ke haalat thode sudhar jaye .......aur app jab india aao to app aur mai.........pakistan chalte hai jyada time bhi nahi lagega.........ambedgar stadium se bus chalti hai...........dono kuch jatto se milenge..meri urdu bhi thik thak hai koi hamme pehchaan bhi nahi payega..........aur kuch mandir aur gurudwaro mai bhi ho ayenge....aur asliyat bhi pata chal jayegi.......

rhetoric nahi hai........sachh bol rha hu mera hamesha se pakistan jane ka mann hai app ke saath aur achha rahega dono side of story jatland parr share karenge............

भाई विचार अछा है और आप से पहले मैं सोच रहा हूँ जाने का, मेरे दोस्त भी है कराची और लाहौर मैं जो साथ पढ़े , पर शायद आप को पता नहो पाक और हिंदुस्तान मैं लोग एस एही नहीं घूम सकते, आप को वीसा मिल्लत है शेत्र के लिए जहां आप की पहचान वाला कोई हो, और अप को रोज़ थाने मैं हाजरी लगनी पड़ती है | जिस शेत्र का वीसा आपके पास है वहां से आप बहार नहीं जा सकते, तो भाई विचार अछा है और मैं तैयार भी हूँ पर हकीकत मैं नहीं हो पायेगा

RathiJi
September 23rd, 2013, 08:40 PM
आप और यहाँ भतेरे लोग भी तो हिंदुस्तान से दुखी है, वो भी आप जैसी सोच वाले होंगे ...


Vikas bhai,

Hum hindustan se nahi kuch bahut hi thode se Hindustanio se dukhi hai ....

cooljat
September 23rd, 2013, 09:30 PM
There's a Hindu Jat from Pakistan here on Jatland. His name is Mr. Legha if I remember well, would be good if you take first hand information from him. Just dig his old posts and read yourself if you can.

I have a friend(Indian) who married a Hindu from Pakistan and living in Canada. Her husbands family lives in Karachi and have heard that there is no problem as it is shown. So a first hand account.

RathiJi
September 24th, 2013, 01:20 AM
Friends,

A new incidence of Pseudo-secularism and dirty vote bank politics. The west Bengal govt. withdrawn cases from muslims who attacked and abused Taslima Nasreen. They were also booked for rioting as they vandalised & rampaged city to protest against her. The cars were smashed, stones were pelted & policemen were beaten in Kolkata ??The charges were of riots, vanadalising public property & even attempt to murder. The reason govt. given in court is that it is just a legal gesture to the weaker section (minority).

The main accused name was Idris Ali with 20 others accused. Here is the report

http://www.bharatchannels.com/newsx-english-news-videos/taslimas-attackers-freed-for-vote-mamata-banerjee-ignores-law-for-minority-video_14de1eb3e.html

Only newX is showing this news n no other channel.

swaich
September 24th, 2013, 09:37 AM
your welcome Swaich.


Again a piece of sheer ignorance and less knowledge from you. Malaysia is a federal constitutional monarchy which gurantees the freedom of religion so no question. Indonesian constitution also stipulate freedom of religion. Now about Dubai,i.e, UAE this gurudwara was bulit only a few years ago and I am the one who followed this event and contributed to the cause. The land was given by govt. to build the compound but it's the govt which subsidises 95% of mosques and there is a ban on non muslims for proselytising n distributing religious text. So is this the same respect to Hinduism and Sikhism ? Pakistan, I dont think I need to tell you about the state of minorities there including Hindu,Sikh,Christian,Bahai, Ahmedi. Abdus Salam one out of two muslim scientists who ever won nobel prize was insulted like anything coz he was a Ahmedi. Iran, The religion, politics, civil code everything is Islamlic(shitte) and these gurudwaras which are listed in Wikipedia doesn't exist. Moreover the supreme leader is always a Shia Iman and read his views on ur nation . Khameni

http://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/RestOfAsia/Iran-s-supreme-leader-backs-Kashmir-struggle/Article1-628346.aspx

I will be grateful to u if u cud atleast give the same exaggerated list of Hindu dieties temples too in those countries which are Islamic by constitution.


Banning beef means not killing one animal to eat and stoning to death means killing a fellow human being for so called morals. :)



That's why Shiv Sena is not a pan-indian party even with majority of population as Hindu. You know the difference between state and individual. State means the constitution and govt. following it and legal framework enforcing. Is it the same in case of Shiv Sena ???


I am not making any distinction. The countries which are Islamic by constitution and export Islamic extremism and terrorism I am talking about them only.


Just take it as facts.

Yes, All Islamic countries have moral police. Islamic countries doesn't means muslims in majority it means constitutionaly Islamic. Like India ia Hindu in majority but it is not a Hindu country.

Yes, All Islamic countries have laws and even extremists and terrorists supported by those laws who insults n prohibit other religions specially hinduism.

Yes, All Islamic countries don't allow non-muslims to build their places of worship.


Long live the dream. :)

I have shown you examples of Islamic countries including Iran, UAE and Pakistan having Gurudwaras. Doesn't matter if it was recently built or not. I am not going to educate you anymore. Please dig up your own info on temples in these countries.

The point I have been making repeatedly is that, its all about interpretation. Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all based on the Ol Testament. The former two have also passed through phases where their followers used them for violent means (some will say they still are), but it appears many followers of Islam are still caught in a violent spiral. We can debate why this is the case or not, but that also means Islam is as bad as Judaism or Christianity.

swaich
September 24th, 2013, 09:44 AM
As has been pointed out by Sumit, innocent non-muslims have been killed in Nairobi and Pakistan by Muslim fanatics.

My question still remains: If the Holy Quran preaches peace, why do its followers all across the world kill innocent non-muslims in the name of religion. My question is for all those who talk of Islam being a religion of peace. At this moment, I have not taken any position and would like to analyze this phenomenon threadbare with an open mind.

Abhik, thats a valid question, but none of us here are qualified enough to talk about what the original teachings of Islam are as well as we could do for Hinduism or Sikhism in some cases. We have neither studied nor tried to understand the teachings completely. We simply base our opinions or judgements on the religion based on the actions of its followers. If followers decided the goodness or evil of a religion, I don't know if we will find any goodness in any religion of the world.

If you'd notice, Desi, Atish and I have been saying that we can't condemn Islam based on the actions of its followers. We also cannot say for sure that its a peaceful religion. Maybe the truth lies somewhere in the middle or maybe, as I reckon, no one here knows the real truth and it will vary from one person to another.

swaich
September 24th, 2013, 09:46 AM
"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its
votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in
a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic
apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries, improvident
habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of
commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the
followers of the Prophet rule or live.

A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and
refinement, the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that
in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his
absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine,
must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of
Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.

Individual Muslims may show splendid qualities, but the
influence of the religion paralyses the social development of
those who follow it.

No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from
being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing
faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa,
raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that
Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the
science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization
of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient
Rome."

Sir Winston Churchill; (Source: The River War, first edition,
Vol. II, pages 248-50 London)



"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog." - Churchill

Churchill also said "India is as much a country as the equator. Its just a loose geographic entity" I am sure that wont go down well with the Hindu Nationalists aka the only patriots.

shekharjat
September 24th, 2013, 11:42 AM
भाई विचार अछा है और आप से पहले मैं सोच रहा हूँ जाने का, मेरे दोस्त भी है कराची और लाहौर मैं जो साथ पढ़े , पर शायद आप को पता नहो पाक और हिंदुस्तान मैं लोग एस एही नहीं घूम सकते, आप को वीसा मिल्लत है शेत्र के लिए जहां आप की पहचान वाला कोई हो, और अप को रोज़ थाने मैं हाजरी लगनी पड़ती है | जिस शेत्र का वीसा आपके पास है वहां से आप बहार नहीं जा सकते, तो भाई विचार अछा है और मैं तैयार भी हूँ पर हकीकत मैं नहीं हो पायेगा

koi baat nahi roj thane chale jayenge........aur tourist visa to mil sakta hai na.....arrre jab papppi jhappi ka season ayega.........bonhomie hoyegi dono desho mai........i hope 2-4 saal mai...hallat thik ho to cricket diplomacy ke sahare hum bhi chale chalenge.......

rajpaldular
September 24th, 2013, 12:11 PM
अमेरिका में आर्मी को योग सिखाया जाता है और यही योग भारत में हो तो साम्प्रदायिक कहलाता है।


https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/p480x480/66160_564761590256425_442694185_n.jpg

RathiJi
September 24th, 2013, 06:39 PM
I have shown you examples of Islamic countries including Iran, UAE and Pakistan having Gurudwaras. Doesn't matter if it was recently built or not. I am not going to educate you anymore. Please dig up your own info on temples in these countries.

I understand u couldn't or didn't answer the series of facts shown to you and escaped many questions. If IRAN,UAE & PAKISTAN provide as much a religious freedom to minorities compared to non muslim countries give to muslims, the credit goes to you for the biggest joke of modern world. If anyone dig the history or land of these countries , they will find horrible minority persecution which is still going on.


The point I have been making repeatedly is that, its all about interpretation. Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all based on the Ol Testament. The former two have also passed through phases where their followers used them for violent means (some will say they still are), but it appears many followers of Islam are still caught in a violent spiral. We can debate why this is the case or not, but that also means Islam is as bad as Judaism or Christianity.



The facts can be countered with facts not with emotional escape routes. What we see is what we perceive. 2000 years back christians were crusaders , what to do they are civilized now in my lifetime. If all muslim countries shun violence & respect humanity irrespective of religion, then no problem. I am concerned about present day threat which appears here & there everyday. Do you think if X religion in history did violent persecution there was no one to oppose ? People always contribute to this world in their lifetime some by supporting or doing violence and some by opposing or oppressing it .

By the way who told you that Christianity,Islam & Judaism all are based on old testament ? I am not a religious scholar but a student of comparative religions. That will be good if you provide some facts to back your claim.


I am not going to educate you anymore. Please dig up your own info on temples in these countries.

Don't educate me , do it to yourself. So that next time you can come up with facts to back urself.

swaich
September 24th, 2013, 07:58 PM
I understand u couldn't or didn't answer the series of facts shown to you and escaped many questions. If IRAN,UAE & PAKISTAN provide as much a religious freedom to minorities compared to non muslim countries give to muslims, the credit goes to you for the biggest joke of modern world. If anyone dig the history or land of these countries , they will find horrible minority persecution which is still going on.
Let me be the joker and you can be the learned one. You spoke about non-Islamic religions as banned in Islamic countries, no buildings, police breaking idols in homes (you aren't a bad joker yourself) and I showed you evidence refuting this. Persecution is everywhere.




The facts can be countered with facts not with emotional escape routes. What we see is what we perceive. 2000 years back christians were crusaders , what to do they are civilized now in my lifetime. If all muslim countries shun violence & respect humanity irrespective of religion, then no problem. I am concerned about present day threat which appears here & there everyday. Do you think if X religion in history did violent persecution there was no one to oppose ? People always contribute to this world in their lifetime some by supporting or doing violence and some by opposing or oppressing it .
This does tell me how much you know about history. Christianity began 2000 years ago. Crusades happened barely 700 years back. Christians were burning witches and heretics 500 years back. Every religion has had its share of violence. One has to look at the entirety of a religion before condemning it.


By the way who told you that Christianity,Islam & Judaism all are based on old testament ? I am not a religious scholar but a student of comparative religions. That will be good if you provide some facts to back your claim.
Why do you think they are called Abrahamic faiths? Maybe you missed that in your course on comparative religions. :)



Don't educate me , do it to yourself. So that next time you can come up with facts to back urself.
I have seen that facts dont help you much, so I am not going to try the next time.

RathiJi
September 24th, 2013, 09:21 PM
Let me be the joker and you can be the learned one. You spoke about non-Islamic religions as banned in Islamic countries, no buildings, police breaking idols in homes (you aren't a bad joker yourself) and I showed you evidence refuting this. Persecution is everywhere.

Ah! I provided you one chapter of MUTAWEEN to start with . You read that and ignored it by saying a mere presence of moral policing in some ISLAMIC nations. Did you show me some facts ? Oh! yes a list of Gurudwaras from Wikipedia even incomplete without Temples, Churches & Synagouges no homework , on top of that it doesn't matter to you when they got constructed or destroyed. That's great, lets talk about one more pillar of religious freedom in the countries you are defending. The choice of choosing faith by wish.

Apostasy , meaning renunciation of a religion or choosing another one. According to united nations,

The United nations commission on Human Rights, considers the recanting of a person's religion a Human Right legally protected by the International covenant on civil & political rights.

According to individuals believing in humanity like me and all others hope you also as u defending the cause , everyone is free to choose his/her religion. Now,

There are 20 countries across the globe prohibited its citizens from apostasy. The following are the nations that treat apostasy under their criminal laws.




Iran – illegal (death penalty)
Egypt – illegal (3 years' imprisonment)
Pakistan – illegal (death penalty since 2007)
United Arab Emirates – illegal (3 years' imprisonment, flogging)
Somalia – illegal (death penalty)
Afghanistan – illegal (death penalty, although the U.S. and other coalition members have put pressure that has prevented recent executions)
Saudi Arabia – illegal (death penalty, although there have been no recently reported executions)
Sudan – illegal (death penalty, although there have only been recent reports of torture, and not of execution)
Qatar – illegal (death penalty)
Yemen – illegal (death penalty)
Malaysia – illegal in five of 13 states (fine, imprisonment, and flogging)
Mauritania – illegal (death penalty if still apostate after 3 days)
Morocco – illegal to proselytise conversion (15 years' imprisonment)
Jordan – possibly illegal (fine, jail, child custody loss, marriage annulment) although officials claim otherwise, convictions are recorded for apostasy
Oman – legal in criminal code, but according to the family code, a father can lose custody of his child


Note: This law is applicable only when someone leaves ISLAM for another religion , vice-versa is okay for all these countries :)

Is this the freedom of religion you are trying to defend ? Would you like INDIA or USA to provide same freedom of religion to its minorities ? I think if we can get some more intellectuals supporting this as u supported this would resolve all the problems in INDIA also.

You raised some more points of Abhramic faith , one of my favourite topic , I can never miss that in course and will not let anyone miss :). First, lets conclude this Islamic countries freedom of religion we will discuss that too.

AbhikRana
September 24th, 2013, 10:27 PM
I agree that none of us have read and mastered the holy book to talk about the teachings.

You also rightly said that our judgments on religion are based on the action of the followers. And with all the killings of innocents across the world, you obviously know what people think of this faith.

However, the moot point remains - how come the interpretation of the Holy Quran is so highly flawed all across the world that their Holy war is against the innocents including children, women, the elderly???? Can such a wide cross-section of people spread across the globe be wrong in their interpretation????

My only contention is that before equating one faith with another, we need to first get deep into it, its shortcomings, plus points etc. By brainstorming further, I would like to prove myself wrong - the belief that all religions do not preach peace.

At the same time, I can confidently say for Hinduism and Sikhism that these are religions of peace. They exist for mankind and its betterment. In Hinduism, no one is killed if one wishes to renounce his religion/faith.


Abhik, thats a valid question, but none of us here are qualified enough to talk about what the original teachings of Islam are as well as we could do for Hinduism or Sikhism in some cases. We have neither studied nor tried to understand the teachings completely. We simply base our opinions or judgements on the religion based on the actions of its followers. If followers decided the goodness or evil of a religion, I don't know if we will find any goodness in any religion of the world.

If you'd notice, Desi, Atish and I have been saying that we can't condemn Islam based on the actions of its followers. We also cannot say for sure that its a peaceful religion. Maybe the truth lies somewhere in the middle or maybe, as I reckon, no one here knows the real truth and it will vary from one person to another.

singhvp
September 25th, 2013, 02:01 AM
I have a friend(Indian) who married a Hindu from Pakistan and living in Canada. Her husbands family lives in Karachi and have heard that there is no problem as it is shown. So a first hand account.

Vikas, there could be some exaggeration in media reports but things are not as cozy as in India, if the narraton of Mr. Legha (a member on this site) is to be believed. Our country is the best place in the world where minorities enjoy the maximum freedom and dignity.

desijat
September 25th, 2013, 02:17 AM
I agree, it is similar to the propoganda carried by their meida for Indian muslims
Vikas, there could be some exaggeration in media reports but things are not as cozy as in India, if the narraton of Mr. Legha (a member on this site) is to be believed.

swaich
September 25th, 2013, 09:52 AM
Vikas, there could be some exaggeration in media reports but things are not as cozy as in India, if the narraton of Mr. Legha (a member on this site) is to be believed. Our country is the best place in the world where minorities enjoy the maximum freedom and dignity.

Pakistan may not be a safe place for minorities but we are no heaven either. We have a long way to go before we can lose prejudices in state institutions, political groups and common people against minorities. We have an inclination to jump into mindless communal violence every few years with after effects that linger on for decades. This situation is made worse by our collective amnesia.


P.S. For true patriots aka Hindu nationalists, minorities above can mean all groups who are lesser in number than the majority religious group. Yes, that means Hindus in Muslim, Sikh, Christian majority areas.

swaich
September 25th, 2013, 10:00 AM
Ah! I provided you one chapter of MUTAWEEN to start with . You read that and ignored it by saying a mere presence of moral policing in some ISLAMIC nations. Did you show me some facts ? Oh! yes a list of Gurudwaras from Wikipedia even incomplete without Temples, Churches & Synagouges no homework , on top of that it doesn't matter to you when they got constructed or destroyed. That's great, lets talk about one more pillar of religious freedom in the countries you are defending. The choice of choosing faith by wish.

Apostasy , meaning renunciation of a religion or choosing another one. According to united nations,

The United nations commission on Human Rights, considers the recanting of a person's religion a Human Right legally protected by the International covenant on civil & political rights.

According to individuals believing in humanity like me and all others hope you also as u defending the cause , everyone is free to choose his/her religion. Now,

There are 20 countries across the globe prohibited its citizens from apostasy. The following are the nations that treat apostasy under their criminal laws.




Iran – illegal (death penalty)
Egypt – illegal (3 years' imprisonment)
Pakistan – illegal (death penalty since 2007)
United Arab Emirates – illegal (3 years' imprisonment, flogging)
Somalia – illegal (death penalty)
Afghanistan – illegal (death penalty, although the U.S. and other coalition members have put pressure that has prevented recent executions)
Saudi Arabia – illegal (death penalty, although there have been no recently reported executions)
Sudan – illegal (death penalty, although there have only been recent reports of torture, and not of execution)
Qatar – illegal (death penalty)
Yemen – illegal (death penalty)
Malaysia – illegal in five of 13 states (fine, imprisonment, and flogging)
Mauritania – illegal (death penalty if still apostate after 3 days)
Morocco – illegal to proselytise conversion (15 years' imprisonment)
Jordan – possibly illegal (fine, jail, child custody loss, marriage annulment) although officials claim otherwise, convictions are recorded for apostasy
Oman – legal in criminal code, but according to the family code, a father can lose custody of his child


Note: This law is applicable only when someone leaves ISLAM for another religion , vice-versa is okay for all these countries :)

Is this the freedom of religion you are trying to defend ? Would you like INDIA or USA to provide same freedom of religion to its minorities ? I think if we can get some more intellectuals supporting this as u supported this would resolve all the problems in INDIA also.

You raised some more points of Abhramic faith , one of my favourite topic , I can never miss that in course and will not let anyone miss :). First, lets conclude this Islamic countries freedom of religion we will discuss that too.

Let me say first hand I do not condone law against apostasy. One should be free to leave and choose any religion when he/she pleases.

Now, for the umpteenth time, let me elucidate my argument again as you are going to go around in circles-

Bad deeds of followers, nations (with justification from holy books) /= Bad religion

shekharjat
September 25th, 2013, 11:02 AM
Pakistan may not be a safe place for minorities but we are no heaven either. We have a long way to go before we can lose prejudices in state institutions, political groups and common people against minorities. We have an inclination to jump into mindless communal violence every few years with after effects that linger on for decades. This situation is made worse by our collective amnesia.


P.S. For true patriots aka Hindu nationalists, minorities above can mean all groups who are lesser in number than the majority religious group. Yes, that means Hindus in Muslim, Sikh, Christian majority areas.


swaich bhai we are no heaven either for minorities........ i also know.....but what we majority have faced from our minority side no other majority would have left a single minority alive.........

you know how Hindus were selectively killed by militants in Punjab in trains and buses.......

my father was in KHUMB MELA in 1992 duty in haridwar Sikh terrorist attacked bus in roorkee and killed 21 Hindus on last day of khumb mela.......no reaction was their even after the fact that almost crore Hindus were their in haridwar that last day of khumb

my uncle`s police jeep was blown by sikh militants in sharanpur he was lucky he lost all finger of one foot......even klashnikos rifle were shattered into pieces........door of jeep was hanging on the tree .........

when i used to study in boarding in nainital my family`s car was chased by militants when they were returning after dropping me........

i have seen my jat sikh friends carrying photos of bhindarwala and sikh militants in their phone and laptop and glorifying them.......

have few more personell examples will give you at another time........

we visited HARMINDER SAHIB in 2010.....most of hindu jats must have visited that place .......i saw pictures of bhindarwala at many places in the temple complex......

we have seen sikhs giving siropa to terrorist,we have seen sikhs declaring bhindarwala saint........then also we respect sikhism.....we respect sikhs .....we treat them as brothers........i have big picture of golden temple in my house.......

this is what majority in India is like...........any other example in the world?????????????
please name the country which is heaven for minorities in the world??????

recently Sikh man was attacked in Britain ........i called tv channel which was running a live programme and spoke against any racism against any Indian any where in the world.......
yet another Sikh professor was attacked in USA and iam very concerned.........

swaich
September 25th, 2013, 01:15 PM
swaich bhai we are no heaven either for minorities........ i also know.....but what we majority have faced from our minority side no other majority would have left a single minority alive.........

you know how Hindus were selectively killed by militants in Punjab in trains and buses.......

my father was in KHUMB MELA in 1992 duty in haridwar Sikh terrorist attacked bus in roorkee and killed 21 Hindus on last day of khumb mela.......no reaction was their even after the fact that almost crore Hindus were their in haridwar that last day of khumb

my uncle`s police jeep was blown by sikh militants in sharanpur he was lucky he lost all finger of one foot......even klashnikos rifle were shattered into pieces........door of jeep was hanging on the tree .........

when i used to study in boarding in nainital my family`s car was chased by militants when they were returning after dropping me........

i have seen my jat sikh friends carrying photos of bhindarwala and sikh militants in their phone and laptop and glorifying them.......

have few more personell examples will give you at another time........

we visited HARMINDER SAHIB in 2010.....most of hindu jats must have visited that place .......i saw pictures of bhindarwala at many places in the temple complex......

we have seen sikhs giving siropa to terrorist,we have seen sikhs declaring bhindarwala saint........then also we respect sikhism.....we respect sikhs .....we treat them as brothers........i have big picture of golden temple in my house.......

this is what majority in India is like...........any other example in the world?????????????
please name the country which is heaven for minorities in the world??????

recently Sikh man was attacked in Britain ........i called tv channel which was running a live programme and spoke against any racism against any Indian any where in the world.......
yet another Sikh professor was attacked in USA and iam very concerned.........

Shekhar bhai,

Let me say I feel incidents of Sikh militants targeting Hindus especially traders in Punjab and elsewhere are a blot on the community. I think those Sikh militants were doing no favor do their cause or their faith by targeting innocents.

But here's my point - if you are telling me that the majority community (Hindus in this case) did a favor to the minorities by not taking revenge, than I disagree with you.

RathiJi
September 25th, 2013, 01:49 PM
Let me say first hand I do not condone law against apostasy. One should be free to leave and choose any religion when he/she pleases.

That's good... then don't ever say again that listed Islamic countries provides freedom of religion and there is no persecution of minorities and there is no Islamic supermacy.


Now, for the umpteenth time, let me elucidate my argument again as you are going to go around in circles-

Bad deeds of followers, nations (with justification from holy books) /= Bad religion

Don't argue for the sake of argument & tell us why we should not condemn these countries and their laws. You are free to think whatever. I told you about anti-humanity laws violating basic tenants of human rights .Here I provided you a list of 15-20 Islamic nations almost all on this globe. Don't you know these laws are based on Islamic scriptures ? Don't you know that so called wrong interpretors (Terrorists ) are also from these countries ? Do you think the people living there , govt. , police , all machinery wrongly interprets their religion ?it's you who is going around circles and not coming with facts, and the centrifugal point of ur circle is an universal apologist line "Bad deeds & wrong interpretation of some followers bla bla bla "

swaich
September 25th, 2013, 03:23 PM
That's good... then don't ever say again that listed Islamic countries provides freedom of religion and there is no persecution of minorities and there is no Islamic supermacy.
Did I say all of those things?


Don't argue for the sake of argument & tell us why we should not condemn these countries and their laws. You are free to think whatever. I told you about anti-humanity laws violating basic tenants of human rights .Here I provided you a list of 15-20 Islamic nations almost all on this globe. Don't you know these laws are based on Islamic scriptures ? Don't you know that so called wrong interpretors (Terrorists ) are also from these countries ? Do you think the people living there , govt. , police , all machinery wrongly interprets their religion ?it's you who is going around circles and not coming with facts, and the centrifugal point of ur circle is an universal apologist line "Bad deeds & wrong interpretation of some followers bla bla bla "

Simply because there are good deeds too. You mean to say Muslims only do evil?

RathiJi
September 25th, 2013, 03:46 PM
Did I say all of those things?

Well... leave the history. I think in future you will not say so on Jatland that in Islamic countries there is freedom of religion.




Simply because there are good deeds too. You mean to say Muslims only do evil?

How many of them you know possessing good deeds, Approximately ? I also know few of them APJ Kalam, Mustafa Kamal Ataturk, Abdul Hamid etc. You can tell your list.

Earlier , I gave you example of a modern, progressive, secular predominantly muslim state, i.e, Turkey , Ataturk was founder of that nation. you know what he said about the religion u defending ?

"For nearly five hundred years, these rules and theories [regarding civil and criminal law] of an Arab Shaikh and the interpretations of generations of lazy and good-for-nothing priests have decided the civil and criminal law of Turkey. They have decided the form of the Constitution, the details of the lives of each Turk, his food, his hours of rising and sleeping the shape of his clothes, the routine of the midwife who produced his children, what he learned in his schools, his customs, his thoughts-even his most intimate habits. This theology of an immoral Arab [presented as Islam] is a dead thing. Possibly it might have suited tribes in the desert. It is no good for modern, progressive state. God's revelation! There is no God! These are only the chains by which the priests and bad rulers bound the people down. A ruler who needs religion is a weaklings. No weaklings should rule!"

swaich
September 25th, 2013, 05:42 PM
Well... leave the history. I think in future you will not say so on Jatland that in Islamic countries there is freedom of religion.
Get off your pedestal.


How many of them you know possessing good deeds, Approximately ? I also know few of them APJ Kalam, Mustafa Kamal Ataturk, Abdul Hamid etc. You can tell your list.
Every Muslim working a 9 to 7 job, feeding his family and leading a normal citizen's life. There are too many of such to count. And yes, I believe they outnumber the terrorists, religious nuts and hatemongers.


arlier , I gave you example of a modern, progressive, secular predominantly muslim state, i.e, Turkey , Ataturk was founder of that nation. you know what he said about the religion u defending ?

"For nearly five hundred years, these rules and theories [regarding civil and criminal law] of an Arab Shaikh and the interpretations of generations of lazy and good-for-nothing priests have decided the civil and criminal law of Turkey. They have decided the form of the Constitution, the details of the lives of each Turk, his food, his hours of rising and sleeping the shape of his clothes, the routine of the midwife who produced his children, what he learned in his schools, his customs, his thoughts-even his most intimate habits. This theology of an immoral Arab [presented as Islam] is a dead thing. Possibly it might have suited tribes in the desert. It is no good for modern, progressive state. God's revelation! There is no God! These are only the chains by which the priests and bad rulers bound the people down. A ruler who needs religion is a weaklings. No weaklings should rule!"

Love that man, Attaturk. Only if other heads of Muslim states had the sense to put modernity into a higher plane than religion and separate religion from state.

Btw, isn't he talking about interpretations too? Read his comments again! Their crux is that the Turks shouldn't tie themselves to the self serving interpretations of the priests.

rkumar
September 25th, 2013, 06:00 PM
Every Muslim working a 9 to 7 job, feeding his family and leading a normal citizen's life. There are too many of such to count. And yes, I believe they outnumber the terrorists, religious nuts and hatemongers.



Agreed. Any thoughts on "Number of Terrorists/ million Population" according to religious belief? It might be interesting to find out who leads and by how much.

RK^2

cooljat
September 25th, 2013, 06:23 PM
Have a read from Post #17 and onwards by Legha. I know isse pad ke bhi tere sir pe joo na rengegi but still pad liye -

http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?34102-Hindu-woman-talking-about-Injustice-with-minorities-in-Pakistan


I agree, it is similar to the propoganda carried by their meida for Indian muslims

swaich
September 25th, 2013, 06:49 PM
Agreed. Any thoughts on "Number of Terrorists/ million Population" according to religious belief? It might be interesting to find out who leads and by how much.

RK^2

That's the million dollar question.

But before we go into that ratio, we have to define "a terrorist" first. Any common standards of definitions there?

RathiJi
September 25th, 2013, 06:54 PM
Get off your pedestal.

Sure if you prove me wrong in the above point regarding Islamic countries.



Every Muslim working a 9 to 7 job, feeding his family and leading a normal citizen's life. There are too many of such to count. And yes, I believe they outnumber the terrorists, religious nuts and hatemongers.

It means terrorist, religious nuts & hatemongers have outnumbered normal 9 to 7 muslims in all these Islamic nations ? That's why state which represents entire population forces such laws on minority and do the persecution. Anyways , there are some questions you can ask normal, peace loving muslims ? Like for example,

Mahatma Gandhi (Hindu, Idol worshipper), Nelson Mandela(Methodist), Mother Teresa ( Roman Catholic) , Swami Vivekanand ( vedanta), Martin Luther King ( Baptist ) all worked throughout their life for human rights and good deeds. But they were not muslims n didn't believe in Islamic god, prophet & scriptures. So ask them where they will go acc to Islam and it scriptures not by human values ? Hell or heaven ? you will get the answer and the root of problem.



Love that man, Attaturk. Only if other heads of Muslim states had the sense to put modernity into a higher plane than religion and separate religion from state.

Btw, isn't he talking about interpretations too? Read his comments again! Their crux is that the Turks shouldn't tie themselves to the self serving interpretations of the priests.

Finally, you agree that other muslim states as i mentioned have done a poisonous mixing of religion ( ISLAM not any other) with state ? They persecute and disrespect other religions in their state and globally by Jihad & funding.

You are right Mustafa was talking about interpretation and that is the only interpretation of almost all muslim scholars no wrong no right. If you don't agree with him tell me if there is any other interpretation. You know like many other muslim countries Indian muslims (all of them) follow the same civil rules of Immoral Arabs as he quoted.Do you know Turkey treats polygamy under criminal law ? Do you know Pakistan a theocratic muslim state shares the same history with India ? Do you know Maharaja Ranjeet Singh (Sikh) ruled Lahore and most of northern Pakistan even some portions of Afghanistan. Do you have any text book glorifying him there ? Do you know abt roads & monuments commisioned on his name ?

I can show you the roads and chapters on most cruel muslim ruler in India ,i.e, Aurangzeb. Who butchered Hindus like animals & destroyed places of worship all across India. This is what India is a Hindu majority country. Don't push people to such extent so that they start talking in the same language ? Hinduism in general and Hindus in particular deserve the respect from all sections because of deeds not the supremacy of religion.

rkumar
September 25th, 2013, 07:00 PM
That's the million dollar question.

But before we go into that ratio, we have to define "a terrorist" first. Any common standards of definitions there?

Terrorists: A person like Kasab or the likes of 9/11 NY trade tower bombers, London train bombers, like Tunda, or the persons who killed Christians in Peshawar just other day.. I suppose there should not be any objection to agreeing such persons as terrorists?

RK^2

RathiJi
September 25th, 2013, 07:12 PM
Have a read from Post #17 and onwards by Legha. I know isse pad ke bhi tere sir pe joo na rengegi but still pad liye -

http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?34102-Hindu-woman-talking-about-Injustice-with-minorities-in-Pakistan

Finally, The fairy tales of Pakistan being narrated by some members here are over as we got the first hand report from our own brother.

Bhai, Legha Ji ki koi update hai abhi ? How is he & family ?

RathiJi
September 25th, 2013, 07:18 PM
Agreed. Any thoughts on "Number of Terrorists/ million Population" according to religious belief? It might be interesting to find out who leads and by how much.

RK^2

Everyone here knows who is leading and by how much margin, even Pseudo Seculars who will keep finding escape routes and will never hesitate to put foot in their mouth.

cooljat
September 25th, 2013, 08:12 PM
And 'by chance or choice' all these terrorists are Muslims from different part of the world !!


Terrorists: A person like Kasab or the likes of 9/11 NY trade tower bombers, London train bombers, like Tunda, or the persons who killed Christians in Peshawar just other day.. I suppose there should not be any objection to agreeing such persons as terrorists?

RK^2

cooljat
September 25th, 2013, 08:15 PM
It's such a shame these pseudo secular fake intellects declaring everything wrong just to satisfy their false ego.

Anyways, Legha Ji ki koi update nahi hai for quite some time. I wish and hope he and fellow other Jats are safe and sound there in hostile country.


Finally, The fairy tales of Pakistan being narrated by some members here are over as we got the first hand report from our own brother.

Bhai, Legha Ji ki koi update hai abhi ? How is he & family ?

AbhikRana
September 25th, 2013, 08:16 PM
In common man's language, I would say a terrorist is a person who through violence against anyone including innocent people creates terror in the minds and hearts of the general population to achieve his ulterior agenda/motive.

As has been said by VP ji and Shekhar bhai, had the so called minorities indulged in the kind of terror anywhere else in the world as they have in India, they would have been crushed with a heavy hand if not wiped out. Give me one example where this level of terror by the minorities is tolerated in any part of the world?

Terrorism cannot survive WITHOUT local support from the community. So, I would differ with the statement that most of the people from this community are peace-loving. Without funding and other social and logistical support terrorists and terrorism would not survive. We all know how the funds and contributions for terrorism come including from the so-called educated and high-heeled people of the community. It is not for nothing that for them religion is above anything else, even above life and dignity of life.



That's the million dollar question.

But before we go into that ratio, we have to define "a terrorist" first. Any common standards of definitions there?

swaich
September 25th, 2013, 08:19 PM
Terrorists: A person like Kasab or the likes of 9/11 NY trade tower bombers, London train bombers, like Tunda, or the persons who killed Christians in Peshawar just other day.. I suppose there should not be any objection to agreeing such persons as terrorists?

RK^2

Agreed. But shouldn't we define it first? Are only bombings and assassinations termed as acts of terrorism or other forms of violence too?

Terrorists are only the executors. What about instigators, organizers?

prashantacmet
September 25th, 2013, 08:26 PM
swaich sahab...aap ke facts bhi kaafi strong hote hai..par rathi ji ke to super strong hai....badhiay knowledge badh rahi hai.........

prashantacmet
September 25th, 2013, 08:28 PM
Terrorists: A person like Kasab or the likes of 9/11 NY trade tower bombers, London train bombers, like Tunda, or the persons who killed Christians in Peshawar just other day.. I suppose there should not be any objection to agreeing such persons as terrorists?

RK^2

RK ji, naxalites also come in this category?

rkumar
September 25th, 2013, 08:42 PM
Please watch this video of a Suicide bomber and decide yourself;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r04T3yPfxBg

There are 100s of such confessions. I will like to find out if anyone can provide me the similar links of suicide bombers from other faiths.

RK^2

rkumar
September 25th, 2013, 08:48 PM
RK ji, naxalites also come in this category?

Not sure as they target the state machinery in 99% of cases. Haven't heard if they bomb temples, churches, mosques or hotels and malls etc. Haven't heard them planting bombs in markets.

RK^2

rkumar
September 25th, 2013, 08:51 PM
Agreed. But shouldn't we define it first? Are only bombings and assassinations termed as acts of terrorism or other forms of violence too?

Terrorists are only the executors. What about instigators, organizers?

Why don't you put your definition of terrorist. I am sure you too have one.

RK^2

swaich
September 25th, 2013, 08:59 PM
Finally, The fairy tales of Pakistan being narrated by some members here are over as we got the first hand report from our own brother.

Nobody here praised Pakistan or sang its fairy tales. You are spinning things to suit yourself.

swaich
September 25th, 2013, 10:45 PM
In common man's language, I would say a terrorist is a person who through violence against anyone including innocent people creates terror in the minds and hearts of the general population to achieve his ulterior agenda/motive.

I agree with this definition, but I think we need to broaden it to include those who instigate or plan the violence instead of only those who indulge in it. Politicians who sit and plan shouldn't be let off just because they don't actually indulge in it.


As has been said by VP ji and Shekhar bhai, had the so called minorities indulged in the kind of terror anywhere else in the world as they have in India, they would have been crushed with a heavy hand if not wiped out. Give me one example where this level of terror by the minorities is tolerated in any part of the world?
I agree, India is a reasonably tolerant place and that is why we have been able to absorb people from different faiths and beliefs over the course of thousands of years. However, our tolerance levels do take a major dip every now and then and we have a lot of room for improvement for being tolerant of others opinions, faith and actions.


Terrorism cannot survive WITHOUT local support from the community. So, I would differ with the statement that most of the people from this community are peace-loving. Without funding and other social and logistical support terrorists and terrorism would not survive. We all know how the funds and contributions for terrorism come including from the so-called educated and high-heeled people of the community. It is not for nothing that for them religion is above anything else, even above life and dignity of life.

You make a fair point that terrorism however small it may be, cannot survive without the active/passive support of local community. So for this reason alone you assume most Muslims to be terrorists.

Here's my question to you. Barely 20 years ago, Sikh militancy was thriving in Punjab and went on for a decade. But you called Sikhism a religion of peace a few posts back. Do you to think Sikh militancy had support of most of the community and does this mean we should call Sikhism as a terrorist religion too?

I think just like we can't accurately count the no of terrorists in a religion, we can't count those who support it. Unless we decide to call all those who are silent as terrorists or collaborators as well.

swaich
September 25th, 2013, 11:03 PM
Sure if you prove me wrong in the above point regarding Islamic countries.
Again, actions of Islamic countries are not an accurate reflection of Islam the religion.


It means terrorist, religious nuts & hatemongers have outnumbered normal 9 to 7 muslims in all these Islamic nations ? That's why state which represents entire population forces such laws on minority and do the persecution. Anyways , there are some questions you can ask normal, peace loving muslims ? Like for example,

Mahatma Gandhi (Hindu, Idol worshipper), Nelson Mandela(Methodist), Mother Teresa ( Roman Catholic) , Swami Vivekanand ( vedanta), Martin Luther King ( Baptist ) all worked throughout their life for human rights and good deeds. But they were not muslims n didn't believe in Islamic god, prophet & scriptures. So ask them where they will go acc to Islam and it scriptures not by human values ? Hell or heaven ? you will get the answer and the root of problem.

Sure. So we are going to settle this by asking individuals about their opinions? Alright, as soon as I find a person who knows Quran well enough and can answer these questions, I will let you know. Why dont you do the same and then we can come and discuss?


Finally, you agree that other muslim states as i mentioned have done a poisonous mixing of religion ( ISLAM not any other) with state ? They persecute and disrespect other religions in their state and globally by Jihad & funding.
Most religions are stone aged. Their holy books were written according to the times, events and circumstances prevailing at that point of time. To use them verbatim and to draft current laws based on them as its is, is idiotic. Modern thought has to be applied. But again, that comes from the people drafting the laws or in power. So its the followers again.


You are right Mustafa was talking about interpretation and that is the only interpretation of almost all muslim scholars no wrong no right. If you don't agree with him tell me if there is any other interpretation. You know like many other muslim countries Indian muslims (all of them) follow the same civil rules of Immoral Arabs as he quoted.Do you know Turkey treats polygamy under criminal law ? Do you know Pakistan a theocratic muslim state shares the same history with India ? Do you know Maharaja Ranjeet Singh (Sikh) ruled Lahore and most of northern Pakistan even some portions of Afghanistan. Do you have any text book glorifying him there ? Do you know abt roads & monuments commisioned on his name ?
Again, all of these people and countries with biased interpretations are either mostly uneducated/backward or have political compulsions (like in Pakistan's case) to practice bigotry. Again, its the followers.

I could never have known about Maharaja Ranjeet Singh ruling Lahore. Again, the depths of your knowledge amaze me.



I can show you the roads and chapters on most cruel muslim ruler in India ,i.e, Aurangzeb. Who butchered Hindus like animals & destroyed places of worship all across India. This is what India is a Hindu majority country. Don't push people to such extent so that they start talking in the same language ? Hinduism in general and Hindus in particular deserve the respect from all sections because of deeds not the supremacy of religion.

Well, well, it didn't take long for the saffron flag to emerge. Spoken like a well read, right winger.

Aurangzeb was a bigot alright, no doubt about that. Again, he was a follower. There were many others like the Sufi saintsor Arab merchants in the South that spread the religion peacefully

I am branded as a 'Hindu hater' by Abhik anyway, but here's a task for you since you are so fond of giving it to others. Can you calculate the deaths the caste system may have cause for 2500 years among the Shudras? Deaths by forced labor, horrible living conditions, malnutrition, lack of access to routine healthcare etc? And please add to this deaths by fight between Indian (read Hindu) kings before the arrival of Islam. Actually, read a bit about Maratha invasions of the North and the East and their exploitative tax systems. Your myths about the utopia that was Hindu India won't last long.

swaich
September 25th, 2013, 11:07 PM
Not sure as they target the state machinery in 99% of cases. Haven't heard if they bomb temples, churches, mosques or hotels and malls etc. Haven't heard them planting bombs in markets.

RK^2

They have bombed public buses where military personnel were travelling and intimidate villagers who act as police informants. Plus are we saying, some form of violence can be condoned and not termed as terrorism?

RathiJi
September 26th, 2013, 12:47 AM
Again, actions of Islamic countries are not an accurate reflection of Islam the religion.

What & who is the accurate reflection if ISLAM the religion. Tell me according to you ? 9 to 7 is failed as u are not ready to ask them.



Sure. So we are going to settle this by asking individuals about their opinions? Alright, as soon as I find a person who knows Quran well enough and can answer these questions, I will let you know. Why dont you do the same and then we can come and discuss?

How you want to settle this, choice is all urs ? By Knowing laws of Islamic countries, hearing Islamic scholars or leaders throughout history or by asking any muslim individuals who knows Quran & hadidts ? Or there is any other way ?

I will not do that because I have done it already . If i say ISLAM say that all these people will go to hell coz they worshiped other than ALLAH ,i.e, called SHIRK. The biggest sin according to ISLAM n definitely its scriptures means Quran n Hadidts. You could have understood long back if u believed me that's y here i give you this to confirm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rM34AITAjY8

one of the most celebrated and followed ISLAMIC preacher of modern world across the globe.



Most religions are stone aged. Their holy books were written according to the times, events and circumstances prevailing at that point of time. To use them verbatim and to draft current laws based on them as its is, is idiotic. Modern thought has to be applied. But again, that comes from the people drafting the laws or in power. So its the followers again.

Don't try to escape. I think we are talking about ISLAM here . Don't give generic reasoning which is absolutely absurd. You might think that Sikhism is stone aged and at par with ISLAM but i don't think same about HINDUISM as well as SIKHISM. If you are an atheist as you believe all religions are stone aged then declare it. I will come to you accordingly.



Again, all of these people and countries with biased interpretations are either mostly uneducated/backward or have political compulsions (like in Pakistan's case) to practice bigotry. Again, its the followers.

Education ? The countries i mentioned many of them are more educated & properous than India. Do you want me to give the list too ? Tell me. Political compulsion, from where it comes? Sky, ocean or beneath earth. It comes from the people living there. Don't say anything just to be in thread.


I could never have known about Maharaja Ranjeet Singh ruling Lahore. Again, the depths of your knowledge amaze me.

For you, Just to start with the history of SIKHISM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranjit_Singh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikh_Empire

Do you remember in one thread I asked u about Zorawar singh & Fateh singh ? but u din't reply. Don't be so weak in SIKHISM at least if you wanna debate on religion.






Well, well, it didn't take long for the saffron flag to emerge. Spoken like a well read, right winger.

Aurangzeb was a bigot alright, no doubt about that. Again, he was a follower. There were many others like the Sufi saintsor Arab merchants in the South that spread the religion peacefully

I am branded as a 'Hindu hater' by Abhik anyway, but here's a task for you since you are so fond of giving it to others. Can you calculate the deaths the caste system may have cause for 2500 years among the Shudras? Deaths by forced labor, horrible living conditions, malnutrition, lack of access to routine healthcare etc? And please add to this deaths by fight between Indian (read Hindu) kings before the arrival of Islam. Actually, read a bit about Maratha invasions of the North and the East and their exploitative tax systems. Your myths about the utopia that was Hindu India won't last long.

Aurangzeb was a bigot n he was a follower. You look confused , follower of what Hinduism, Sikhism, Islam , Christianity ? Many others saints, who were they for example ?

I don't know what title u were given on Jatland previously. But I am sure u r not a "Hindu Hater".To hate hindusim one has to read it. It's only lack of knowledge about history, religion & politics. I would rather say you ignore , ignore & ignore and a bit of ego which all of us have to admit something wrong :).

I am glad you are concerned about some more human causes like malnutrition, cateism, forced labours ( there is provision of forced labour also in Quran ;)). But this thread belongs to Pseudo secularism and religious debate so I would like to restrict it upto here. Start a new topic I will definitely reply you there.

PS: Did you talk about some saffron flag, then listen color of SIKH empire flag was Saffron. Hindu India lasted the Muslim invasion, persecution & rule of almost many centuries like no other nation or religion could do. It will last forever n ever n ever.

rkumar
September 26th, 2013, 05:46 AM
Will request all of you to read the article below published in Tribune Express of Pakistan;

http://tribune.com.pk/story/609239/justifying-the-killing-of-christians/

This article by most respected Pakistani author Ayesha Siddiqa should be an eye opener to all Pseudo Seculars.

RK^2

swaich
September 26th, 2013, 09:40 AM
What & who is the accurate reflection if ISLAM the religion. Tell me according to you ? 9 to 7 is failed as u are not ready to ask them.
There is no one 'accurate' description of a religion. It means different things to everyone of the followers.




How you want to settle this, choice is all urs ? By Knowing laws of Islamic countries, hearing Islamic scholars or leaders throughout history or by asking any muslim individuals who knows Quran & hadidts ? Or there is any other way ?


I will not do that because I have done it already . If i say ISLAM say that all these people will go to hell coz they worshiped other than ALLAH ,i.e, called SHIRK. The biggest sin according to ISLAM n definitely its scriptures means Quran n Hadidts. You could have understood long back if u believed me that's y here i give you this to confirm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rM34AITAjY8

one of the most celebrated and followed ISLAMIC preacher of modern world across the globe.

I have had conversations with practicing Muslims in the past and even they say there's a lot of confusion with Quaran's teachings. It all depends on how you view it.




Don't try to escape. I think we are talking about ISLAM here . Don't give generic reasoning which is absolutely absurd. You might think that Sikhism is stone aged and at par with ISLAM but i don't think same about HINDUISM as well as SIKHISM. If you are an atheist as you believe all religions are stone aged then declare it. I will come to you accordingly.
My reasoning is absurd and you are the logical guru here? Yes, most religions are stone aged. At least their original teachings are. I haven't studied Hinduism in detail as it hardly has one definition as a religion. But yes, lets open another thread and have a discussion.

Sikhism, from what I have studied is fairly modern as compared to others as it imbibes a lot of influences from other religions that have come before. And that is why I said - most religions.

My theism, atheism or agnosticism is none of your business.




Education ? The countries i mentioned many of them are more educated & properous than India. Do you want me to give the list too ? Tell me. Political compulsion, from where it comes? Sky, ocean or beneath earth. It comes from the people living there. Don't say anything just to be in thread.
I said backward too. AN educated person can be backward as well. It just requires a person with modern thinking like Attaturk to galvanize their people and seperate state from religion. Clearly the countries you mentioned haven't done that.



For you, Just to start with the history of SIKHISM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranjit_Singh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikh_Empire

Do you remember in one thread I asked u about Zorawar singh & Fateh singh ? but u din't reply. Don't be so weak in SIKHISM at least if you wanna debate on religion.

I am weak in every aspect as compared to you Rathiji. Your knowledge on history and religion far outclasses mine. You mean there was actually a Sikh empire? WOW! I cant thank you enough for these links. You have opened my eyes. :cool:



Aurangzeb was a bigot n he was a follower. You look confused , follower of what Hinduism, Sikhism, Islam , Christianity ? Many others saints, who were they for example ?
So you haven't heard of Sufi saints and the people who converted to Islam under them? How is this possible for a great student of religion and history? Never mind. Try reading this and understand how it shaped India's culture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sufism_in_India



I don't know what title u were given on Jatland previously. But I am sure u r not a "Hindu Hater".To hate hindusim one has to read it. It's only lack of knowledge about history, religion & politics. I would rather say you ignore , ignore & ignore and a bit of ego which all of us have to admit something wrong :).

As I said before, I lack knowledge on history, religion and politics. I am still learning these things, a student - just like the true meaning of the word Sikh. Therefore please feel free to share nuggets from your vast knowledge database.


I am glad you are concerned about some more human causes like malnutrition, cateism, forced labours ( there is provision of forced labour also in Quran ;)). But this thread belongs to Pseudo secularism and religious debate so I would like to restrict it upto here. Start a new topic I will definitely reply you there.

Who is trying to escape now? Does this thread have Islam in its title? Its has no defined scope. Pseudo-seculars and Modi haiters is as general and wide ranging a topic as any.

So let me know when you can find answers to the questions I posed to you.


PS: Did you talk about some saffron flag, then listen color of SIKH empire flag was Saffron.
Really? Sikh empire's flag was saffron too? I am again amazed at the depths of you knowledge.

Btw, your saffron is the chaddi wala saffron.


Hindu India lasted the Muslim invasion, persecution & rule of almost many centuries like no other nation or religion could do. It will last forever n ever n ever.
I am sure it will. Hindu India had the courage and the flexibility to adapt, mould and change itself according to whoever entered its boundaries - saint, trader or invader. And it still retains its pluralistic culture. Not many nations in the world can claim that. It suffers from bouts of intolerance and violence owing to severe ego crunch and a desire to claim its perceived rights. But after centuries of subjugation, that is understandable.

prashantacmet
September 26th, 2013, 12:55 PM
Swaich ji.........have you studied the kuran in detail?.

VirJ
September 26th, 2013, 01:04 PM
Most religions are stone aged. Their holy books were written according to the times, events and circumstances prevailing at that point of time. To use them verbatim and to draft current laws based on them as its is, is idiotic. Modern thought has to be applied. But again, that comes from the people drafting the laws or in power. So its the followers again.


Who defines the religion? The book, the person whom they follow, the teachings. The Quran is the word of 'bhagwan' for Muslims and to follow it in letter and spirit is Islam for them. Anyone who doesn’t agree with Quran isn’t Muslims anyway. Most of the Muslim follow or try to follow Sharia (and sharia is based on Quran and Mohammad’s life and examples set by him). A person who follow Sharia is considered a good Musalman. Sunnah is the ideal way of life. Quran has defined everything and is very detailed from the way of worship to the way of food habits, to the way of banking (Islamic banking), to the way of hygiene (circumcise etc.). Quran is final word and it cannot be changed as per Islam.


The person who doesn’t follow these 1000 years old rule (They might interpret it differently for argument sake) isn’t even considered Muslim and it appears as per you if they do follow they are idiots. So are we saying majority of Muslims are idiot because they follow 1000 years old rules?


P.S: For me neither the religion followers are stupid nor the atheist are smarter.

swaich
September 26th, 2013, 01:25 PM
Swaich ji.........have you studied the kuran in detail?.

No. Is anybody who can claim that on JL?

rajpaldular
September 26th, 2013, 01:31 PM
1. "अगर सेक्यूलर होने का मतलब हिन्दू विरोध है तो मैँ सेक्यूलर नहीं हूँ..!"
2. "अगर सेक्यूलर होने का मतलब मुस्लिम तुष्टीकरण है तो मैं सेक्यूलर नहीं हूँ..!"
3. "अगर सेक्यूलर होने का मतलब
गोधरा को अनदेखा करके सिर्फ गुजरात पर रोना है तो मैं सेक्यूलर नहीं हूँ..!"
4. "अगर सेक्यूलर होने का मतलब हज पर सब्सिडी और अमरनाथ, वैष्णो देवी और कुम्भ यात्राओं पर टैक्स लगाना है तो मैं सेक्यूलर नहीं हूँ..!"
5. "अगर सेक्यूलर होने का मतलब अरबी भाषा के विकास के लिए अनुदान देना और संस्कृत भाषा की अनदेखी करना है तो मैं सेक्यूलर नहीं हूँ..!"
6. "अगर सेक्यूलर होने का मतलब 'सिर्फ मुस्लिम लड़कियां ही मेरी बेटियां हैं' कहना है तो मैं सेक्यूलर नहीं हूँ..!"
7. "अगर सेक्युलर होने का मतलब जामा मस्जिद का ४ करोड़ का बिजली बिल माफ़ करना और आम गरीब आदमी की बिजली मात्र १५५ रुपये के बकाये के लिए काट देना है, तो मैं सेक्यूलर नहीं हूँ..!"
8. "अगर सेक्यूलर होने का मतलब मुग़लों के हर छोटी से छोटी इमारतों को बचाना और लाखों साल पुराने रामसेतु को तोडना है, तो मैं सेक्यूलर नहीं हूँ..!"
9. "अगर सेक्यूलर होने का मतलब शहीदों के सर को कटवाने वाले पाकिस्तानी प्रधानमंत्री को भोज देना है, तो मैं सेक्यूलर नहीं हूँ..!"
10. "अगर सेक्यूलर होने का मतलब २४ परगना में हुए हिन्दुओं के ऊपर बर्बर हमलों को मीडिया में नहीं आने देना है तो मैं सेक्यूलर नहीं हूँ..!"
11. "अगर सेक्यूलर होने का मतलब 'वन्दे-मातरम्' का विरोध करने वालों का साथ देना है तो मैं सेक्यूलर नहीं हूँ..!"
12. "अगर सेक्यूलर होने का मतलब तिरंगे का अपमान करने वालों का साथ देना है तो मैं सेक्यूलर नहीं हूँ..!"
13. "अगर सेक्यूलर होने का मतलब डी.डी. नेशनल के लोगो से 'सत्यम शिवम् सुन्दरम्' हटाना है, तो मैं सेक्युलर नहीं हूँ..!"
14. "अगर सेक्यूलर होने का मतलब हिन्दुओं को आतंकवादी और हाफिज सईद तथा ओसामा बिन लादेन को सम्माननीय शब्दों से संबोधित करना है तो मैं सेक्यूलर नहीं हूँ..!"

swaich
September 26th, 2013, 01:36 PM
Who defines the religion? The book, the person whom they follow, the teachings. The Quran is the word of 'bhagwan' for Muslims and to follow it in letter and spirit is Islam for them. Anyone who doesn’t agree with Quran isn’t Muslims anyway. Most of the Muslim follow or try to follow Sharia (and sharia is based on Quran and Mohammad’s life and examples set by him). A person who follow Sharia is considered a good Musalman. Sunnah is the ideal way of life. Quran has defined everything and is very detailed from the way of worship to the way of food habits, to the way of banking (Islamic banking), to the way of hygiene (circumcise etc.). Quran is final word and it cannot be changed as per Islam.

The person who doesn’t follow these 1000 years old rule (They might interpret it differently for argument sake) isn’t even considered Muslim and it appears as per you if they do follow they are idiots. So are we saying majority of Muslims are idiot because they follow 1000 years old rules?


P.S: For me neither the religion followers are stupid nor the atheist are smarter.

Vipin bhai, I have heard many people say that Quran is not only contradictory but many of the so called controversial aspects attributed to Quran are included in 'Hadiths' which aren't a part of the original Quran but added later or their origin is unknown.

Most of the world's religions go beyond just religious thoughts and prescribe a way of living. Their spirit can be imbibed in every aspect of life. This is specially true of Hinduism which is often defined as more of a culture rather than a definite religion. We all have to take the teachings of our respective religions in spirit and not in letter, because the letter is ancient, poetic and open to interpretation. I am sure you'll agree that this is true with most religions.

VirJ
September 26th, 2013, 01:49 PM
Bhai Hadith and Fitrah are not part of Quran.

RathiJi
September 26th, 2013, 02:06 PM
No. Is anybody who can claim that on JL?

Yes! studied Quran with Sunnah ,i.e, Hadidts & Sira . That's why i always asked you to give emphasis on understanding the religion because once your read it & understand it all misconception will be cleared.

Will be replying you on the previous post with more details.

swaich
September 26th, 2013, 02:08 PM
Bhai Hadith and Fitrah are not part of Quran.

That is what I meant when I said, people often confuse them as written in Quran. They are the most controversial and conflicting.

Honestly, the very premise of Quran is that a guy spent some time on a hill (or was it a cave) and these teachings came to him as a revelation from God. That is where I'd stop listening to the Mullah :) But then again, most religious books are very different from rational modern thought. You have to have faith in them to believe them.

swaich
September 26th, 2013, 02:08 PM
Yes! studied Quran with Sunnah ,i.e, Hadidts & Sira . That's why i always asked you to give emphasis on understanding the religion because once your read it & understand it all misconception will be cleared.

Will be replying you on the previous post with more details.

Great. Look forward to it.

RathiJi
September 26th, 2013, 02:27 PM
Vipin bhai, I have heard many people say that Quran is not only contradictory but many of the so called controversial aspects attributed to Quran are included in 'Hadiths' which aren't a part of the original Quran but added later or their origin is unknown.

Most of the world's religions go beyond just religious thoughts and prescribe a way of living. Their spirit can be imbibed in every aspect of life. This is specially true of Hinduism which is often defined as more of a culture rather than a definite religion. We all have to take the teachings of our respective religions in spirit and not in letter, because the letter is ancient, poetic and open to interpretation. I am sure you'll agree that this is true with most religions.

What is original & duplicate Quran ? Let me make it clear to you and amaze u as always to get ur praise, There is only one Quran . According to ISLAM The holy Quran is not made by any man It was a revelation by all merciful ALLAH to the Prophet Mohammmad ( Peace be upon him :)) through the angel Gabriel in 23 years. ALLAH the merciful started revelation when Mohammad (PBUH ) for 40 and continued it till his death. The holy Quran is protected by almighty ALLAH himself. It can never be changed or distorted. It is in the purest form & will be till the Final Day of Judgement ( Qayamat ).

Whatever I said , I said it like a Muslim so there are many PBUH and glorifications :). This can be checked with any ISLAM follower across the globe .

According to you Hadidits origin is unknown and Ouran's origin is known. See above how Quran came and if you believe the story then you know origin.

Now come to Hadidts are part of SUNNAH based on lifestyle & preaching of Mohammad and the way he used to interpret Quran. So according to me at least the origin of Hadidts is known and I can believe that.

Now come to Hindusim, It is not for only those who call them Hindus or those who strictly follow one particular book, prophet or one particular god, pray in one particular direction, talk with god in one particular language, go to pilgrimage at one particular location etc etc. Hindusim whatever anyone can define culture or religion it is for all humanity & mankind. You told you didn't read about Hinduism much so just start with RigVeda, the oldest religious text available to mankind.

VirJ
September 26th, 2013, 04:10 PM
That is what I meant when I said, people often confuse them as written in Quran. They are the most controversial .

It's the Khalifa who are the problem not the source. I don't think that people believe that they are written in Quran but yes in early Islam era lot of different Hadith emerged. Different people believe different Hadiths.

You are right in a sense when you say there are different interpretation of Quran but I think here you want to say that they believe in different Hadiths. Two major branches of these are Shia and Sunni.

prashantacmet
September 26th, 2013, 04:42 PM
http://www.ndtv.com/article/cities/i-was-sacked-over-a-multi-faith-prayer-says-chennai-teacher-423809?pfrom=home-topstories

yeh padho kya ho raha hai secular country main....aur NDTV jaise inhe headlines bhi abante hai..

AbhikRana
September 26th, 2013, 04:49 PM
I think we are not just talking about terrorism, we are talking of TERRORISM IN THE NAME OF RELIGION

And Maoism started off against state apathy and misgovernance, but on the way the maoists lost track and started targetting the innocent, BUT mind you again, not on the basis of religion.


They have bombed public buses where military personnel were travelling and intimidate villagers who act as police informants. Plus are we saying, some form of violence can be condoned and not termed as terrorism?

AbhikRana
September 26th, 2013, 05:11 PM
I would disagree to agree on the point that only politicians are the masterminds of violence. In case a community does not want, you can't force it to do violence. You can take a horse to water, but can't make it drink. A particular community even in today's modern times believes in Holy War.

Yes, India is a tolerant country. But my question is - Is it the responsibility of only the so-called majority to be tolerant towards the acts of aggression and violence of the so-called minority? The minority community can do whatever they please and as they please including killing of innocent members of the majority??

The reason I called Sikhism a religion of peace (and also sacrifice) is that it came into being to protect the majority community from the excesses of the Mughal rulers, warlords and general muslim populace. It would be inappropriate if we forget the sacrifice of Sikh gurus and their children in standing up to the tyrannical rule of the mughal sultanate.

My question on the wide-scale flaw (on a global scale) in the interpretation of the Holy Quran still remains unanswered.




I agree with this definition, but I think we need to broaden it to include those who instigate or plan the violence instead of only those who indulge in it. Politicians who sit and plan shouldn't be let off just because they don't actually indulge in it.



I agree, India is a reasonably tolerant place and that is why we have been able to absorb people from different faiths and beliefs over the course of thousands of years. However, our tolerance levels do take a major dip every now and then and we have a lot of room for improvement for being tolerant of others opinions, faith and actions.



You make a fair point that terrorism however small it may be, cannot survive without the active/passive support of local community. So for this reason alone you assume most Muslims to be terrorists.

Here's my question to you. Barely 20 years ago, Sikh militancy was thriving in Punjab and went on for a decade. But you called Sikhism a religion of peace a few posts back. Do you to think Sikh militancy had support of most of the community and does this mean we should call Sikhism as a terrorist religion too?

I think just like we can't accurately count the no of terrorists in a religion, we can't count those who support it. Unless we decide to call all those who are silent as terrorists or collaborators as well.

rkumar
October 4th, 2013, 05:16 AM
People like Mr Digvijay Singh think that 26/11 was a RSS conspiracy. watch him during a book launch at the subject;

rajpaldular
October 4th, 2013, 04:28 PM
हिंदुत्व को बचाने के लिए हिन्दुओं को ही अपनी सुरक्षा अपने हाथ में लेकर चलनी पड़ेगी। तभी हिन्दू बच सकते हैं अन्यथा विनाश हर तरफ से घेरते हुए आगे बढ़ रहा है अब भी हिन्दू नहीं जागे तो सदैव के लिए सो जायेंगे।

spdeshwal
October 4th, 2013, 06:13 PM
Our community is at crossroads! I am at loss at what to write to support and sympathyse with those who suffered and helpless when everyone including the government, the protector is against them. I see only hope in invoking the prayer and spirit what Guru Gobind Singh taught and lived for, " Shiva Var Mohe Ahe, Shubh Karman Tey Kabhoo Na Taron"
Na Daroon Aur Sauh Jab Jaaye Laroon, Nishchay Kar Apni Jeet Karoon
Aur Sikh Hon Apne Hi Mann Ko, Eh Lalach Hau Gunn Tau Ucharoo
Jab Aav Ki Aundh Nidhan Bane, Att Hi Rann Mein Tab Joojh Maroon

देह शिवा बर मोहे ईहे, शुभ कर्मन ते कभुं न टरूं
न डरौं अरि सौं जब जाय लड़ौं, निश्चय कर अपनी जीत करौं,
अरु सिख हों आपने ही मन कौ इह लालच हउ गुन तउ उचरों,
जब आव की अउध निदान बनै अति ही रन मै तब जूझ मरों

Translation:
O Lord grant me the boon, that I may never deviate from doing a good deed.
That I shall not fear when I go into combat. And with determination I will be victorious.
That I may teach myself this greed alone, to learn only Thy praises.
And when the last days of my life come, I may die in the might of the battlefield.

-- Guru Gobind Singh Jee
d for:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCrHUGGoPAI


So, my humble request to our people living in effected areas to inculcate the spirit in their kids and themselves what the Guru has taught and lived his life in the that manner! There are tears in my eyes when I am writing these lines and thinking of two brave lads who sacrificed their lives for the honor and dignity of their beloved sister! For me their sacrifice was worth for a cause!" Jindgi ka kya bharosa, road par chalte 2 , Raam raam sat" !

May the souls of Gaurav and sachin Rest in peace!

rkumar
October 7th, 2013, 06:49 PM
Watch the following link for annual holidays list at RBI website;

http://rbidocs.rbi.org.in/rdocs/RTGS/PDFs/RTGS20122013.pdf

As if Hindus don't exist in India

RK^2

desijat
October 7th, 2013, 08:19 PM
I took at a look at last years: http://rbidocs.rbi.org.in/rdocs/RTGS/PDFs/RTGSFOR2012.pdf

Here is how I look at it, Holi is never a holiday for them seeing last years list and this year Dusshera and Diwali are falling on Sunday thus no mention in the list.

I hope that ends the political/religious implications implied.


Watch the following link for annual holidays list at RBI website;

http://rbidocs.rbi.org.in/rdocs/RTGS/PDFs/RTGS20122013.pdf

As if Hindus don't exist in India

RK^2

rkumar
October 7th, 2013, 08:41 PM
I took at a look at last years: http://rbidocs.rbi.org.in/rdocs/RTGS/PDFs/RTGSFOR2012.pdf

Here is how I look at it, Holi is never a holiday for them seeing last years list and this year Dusshera and Diwali are falling on Sunday thus no mention in the list.

I hope that ends the political/religious implications implied.

Any special reason of Holi not being a holiday after including three Islamic holidays and two Christian? Does RBI expect many employees coming to work on the day of Holi if its not on Sunday?

desijat
October 7th, 2013, 09:08 PM
Any special reason of Holi not being a holiday after including three Islamic holidays and two Christian? Does RBI expect many employees coming to work on the day of Holi if its not on Sunday?

Not sure, every corporate has different rules and regulations and if no one has raised any objection, i.e. employees I am sure there is something we dont know that is offered

rskankara
October 7th, 2013, 11:54 PM
I tried to see the last year list of holidays, no standard pattern http://rbidocs.rbi.org.in/rdocs/RTGS/PDFs/RTGSFOR2012.pdf (http://rbidocs.rbi.org.in/rdocs/RTGS/PDFs/RTGSFOR2012.pdf). At least Holi must have considered in 2013.

RathiJi
October 8th, 2013, 01:17 AM
Not sure, every corporate has different rules and regulations and if no one has raised any objection, i.e. employees I am sure there is something we dont know that is offered

It is RBI totally governed by Union govt. of India not a company of any corporate house which can make their own holiday calender. The reality is that in terms of no of people Holi is celebrated more than any of the Islamic or Christian festival in India. The most shocking holiday is Muharram which is celebrated only by shitte muslims (20% of entire muslim population in India) .

desijat
October 8th, 2013, 01:26 AM
http://india.gov.in/sites/upload_files/npi/files/govt_holiday_list_14.pdf

corporate, or entity they do have a right to decide


It is RBI totally governed by Union govt. of India not a company of any corporate house which can make their own holiday calender. The reality is that in terms of no of people Holi is celebrated more than any of the Islamic or Christian festival in India. The most shocking holiday is Muharram which is celebrated only by shitte muslims (20% of entire muslim population in India) .

rskankara
October 8th, 2013, 12:41 PM
Central Govt Holidays are being decided by a works committee, which is represented by babus and employees. It has standard guideniles: i.e. no of holiday, 3-4 national holiday, no of holidays for each religion with an option on regional requirements too. Like Holi, no holiday in south...

http://india.gov.in/sites/upload_files/npi/files/govt_holiday_list_14.pdf

corporate, or entity they do have a right to decide

RathiJi
October 8th, 2013, 01:01 PM
http://india.gov.in/sites/upload_files/npi/files/govt_holiday_list_14.pdf

corporate, or entity they do have a right to decide

1. REPUBLIC DAY
2. INDEPENDENCE DAY
3. MAHATMA GANDHI'S BIRTHDAY
4. BUDDHA PURNIMA
5. CHRISTMAS DAY
6. DUSSEHRA (VIJAY DASHMI)
7. DIWALI (DEEPAVALI)
8. GOOD FRIDAY
9. GURU NANAK'S BIRTHDAY
10. IDU'L FITR
11. IDU'L ZUHA
12. MAHAVIR JAYANTI
13. MUHARRAM
14. PROPHET MOHAMMAD'S BIRTHDAY (ID-E-MILAD)

Compulsary Holiday for Central Govt. offices. 4 Islamic Holidays & Two Hindu holidays.

1. AN ADDITIONAL DAY FOR DUSSEHRA
2. HOLI
3. JANAMASHTAMI (VAISHNAVI)
4. RAM NAVAMI
5. MAHA SHIVRATRI
6. GANESH CHATURTHI / VINAYAK CHATURTHI
7. MAKAR SANKARANTI
8. RATH YATRA
9. ONAM
10. PONGAL
11. SRI PANCHAMI / BASANT PANCHAMI
12. VISHU/ VAISAKHI / VAISAKHADI / BAHAG BIHU / MASHADI UGADI /
CHAITRA SUKLADI / CHETI CHAND / GUDI PADAVA 1sT NAVRATRA /
NAUROZ/CHHATH POOJA/KARVA CHAUTH

Optional Holidays. All biggest Hindu festival are listed here. This clearly signifies the value of Hindu & Muslims in eyes of Central govt. Now leave the corporate and tell me I am giving reference from your list only. Why govt. treats 4 Islamic Holidays compulsory and Hindu holidays as optional. you always like to give links , please provide me link of any country in world where national holidays are more for minority faith and less for majority faith.

Prikshit
October 8th, 2013, 01:58 PM
People like Mr Digvijay Singh think that 26/11 was a RSS conspiracy. watch him during a book launch at the subject;

What is more worse is there are some people who find substance in his talks, not to name anyone but take the name that first comes to your mind.

rskankara
October 8th, 2013, 03:12 PM
mene pichale 20 saal se Bharat Sarkaar kee isee tarah ke holidays dekhe hai...yah kaangres ke den hai.... gaalee denaa banatee hai ....... par dosto 6 saal ke BJP shasan me bhee yahee sab chalata rahaa... Ab jo isame kamee nikaal rahe hai, unako BJP se comitment lena chahiye ki agar vah sarkaar me aaye to minorities kee sbhee chuttiya khatm kar degee nahee to jatland par fir seeng fasaayee hogee....

desijat
October 8th, 2013, 08:10 PM
Oh no, how can BJP be wrong of anything?


mene pichale 20 saal se Bharat Sarkaar kee isee tarah ke holidays dekhe hai...yah kaangres ke den hai.... gaalee denaa banatee hai ....... par dosto 6 saal ke BJP shasan me bhee yahee sab chalata rahaa... Ab jo isame kamee nikaal rahe hai, unako BJP se comitment lena chahiye ki agar vah sarkaar me aaye to minorities kee sbhee chuttiya khatm kar degee nahee to jatland par fir seeng fasaayee hogee....

Prikshit
October 9th, 2013, 10:43 AM
Oh no, how can BJP be wrong of anything?

So does you?

RathiJi
October 9th, 2013, 12:07 PM
mene pichale 20 saal se Bharat Sarkaar kee isee tarah ke holidays dekhe hai...yah kaangres ke den hai.... gaalee denaa banatee hai ....... par dosto 6 saal ke BJP shasan me bhee yahee sab chalata rahaa... Ab jo isame kamee nikaal rahe hai, unako BJP se comitment lena chahiye ki agar vah sarkaar me aaye to minorities kee sbhee chuttiya khatm kar degee nahee to jatland par fir seeng fasaayee hogee....

Vo 20 saal ki list hame bhi dikha dijiye. hum bhi thodi gaali BJP ko de lenge. I assure you that Milad-ul-Nabi , birthday of Arab warlord Mohammad was newly introduced.

rajpaldular
October 9th, 2013, 02:28 PM
mene pichale 20 saal se Bharat Sarkaar kee isee tarah ke holidays dekhe hai...yah kaangres ke den hai.... gaalee denaa banatee hai ....... par dosto 6 saal ke BJP shasan me bhee yahee sab chalata rahaa... Ab jo isame kamee nikaal rahe hai, unako BJP se comitment lena chahiye ki agar vah sarkaar me aaye to minorities kee sbhee chuttiya khatm kar degee nahee to jatland par fir seeng fasaayee hogee....

बीजेपी के पास पूर्ण बहुमत नहीं था। बहुत सारे दलों के समर्थन पर एनडीए टिका हुआ था।

desijat
October 9th, 2013, 08:24 PM
Congress ke pass to purna bahumat hai 2004 se, sahi hai unhe gaali dena?
बीजेपी के पास पूर्ण बहुमत नहीं था। बहुत सारे दलों के समर्थन पर एनडीए टिका हुआ था।

RathiJi
October 9th, 2013, 11:14 PM
Congress ke pass to purna bahumat hai 2004 se, sahi hai unhe gaali dena?

Sahi kaha Congress ke pass purna bahumat kabhi bhi nahi tha ???

1st Loksabha 1952 - congress 364 ( majority mark 245)

2nd loksabha 1957 - congress 371 ( majority mark 248)

3rd loksabha 1962 - congress 361 ( majority mark 248)

4th Loksabha 1967 - congress 283 ( majority mark 261)

5th Loksabha 1971 - congress 352 ( majority mark 260)

7th Loksabha 1980 - congress 374 ( majority mark 272)

8th Loksabha 1984 - Congress 416 ( majority mark 258)


First of all this to correct you about ur purna bahumat remark and secondly any idea why they don't get majority now ? we will throw them out this time Mr. desijat.

rskankara
October 9th, 2013, 11:40 PM
अच्छा केंद्र की छोड़ो, राज्यों की छूटियाँ तो राज्य सरकार के अंतर्गत आती है॥इसका मतलब क्या जिन राज्यों मे बीजेपी को पूर्ण बहुमत है वहां अन्य समुदायों के त्योहारों की छूटियाँ जरूर बदल दी होंगी...कुछ जानकारी हो तो साझा कराएँ|
बीजेपी के पास पूर्ण बहुमत नहीं था। बहुत सारे दलों के समर्थन पर एनडीए टिका हुआ था।

RathiJi
October 9th, 2013, 11:57 PM
अच्छा केंद्र की छोड़ो, राज्यों की छूटियाँ तो राज्य सरकार के अंतर्गत आती है॥इसका मतलब क्या जिन राज्यों मे बीजेपी को पूर्ण बहुमत है वहां अन्य समुदायों के त्योहारों की छूटियाँ जरूर बदल दी होंगी...कुछ जानकारी हो तो साझा कराएँ|

Pehle aap is baat ko samajh lijiye ki koi bhi yahan ye nahi keh raha hai ki bas Hindu festival ki chutti rakho muslim festival ki nahi. The concern was that there are many Hindu festivals celebrated by millions of people were sidelined and holidays were declared for other faith's festivals. koi bhi sarkar ho state ya center wahan jo demographics hai chutti us hisab se honi chahiye. Jaise J&K me jyada holidays Islamic hai or Mizoram me Christian holidays. For example

http://mizoram.nic.in/gov/hols.htm

http://publicholidays.in/jammu-kashmir/

rskankara
October 10th, 2013, 12:08 AM
इसीलिए तो एमपी, गुजरात,...... आदि मे हिन्दुओं की ज्यादा छूटिया होनी चाहिए, क्या ऐसा कुछ बदलाब हुआ है पिछले 10-15 सालों मे या अब भी वही कांग्रेसी छुट्टिया ही चल रही है ॥
Pehle aap is baat ko samajh lijiye ki koi bhi yahan ye nahi keh raha hai ki bas Hindu festival ki chutti rakho muslim festival ki nahi. The concern was that there are many Hindu festivals celebrated by millions of people were sidelined and holidays were declared for other faith's festivals. koi bhi sarkar ho state ya center wahan jo demographics hai chutti us hisab se honi chahiye. Jaise J&K me jyada holidays Islamic hai or Mizoram me Christian holidays. For example

http://mizoram.nic.in/gov/hols.htm

http://publicholidays.in/jammu-kashmir/

RathiJi
October 10th, 2013, 08:53 AM
इसीलिए तो एमपी, गुजरात,...... आदि मे हिन्दुओं की ज्यादा छूटिया होनी चाहिए, क्या ऐसा कुछ बदलाब हुआ है पिछले 10-15 सालों मे या अब भी वही कांग्रेसी छुट्टिया ही चल रही है ॥

Haan Ji MP & Gujrat me Hindu festivals ki holiday jyada hai. Ye to ho gayi states ki baat ab union govt. ka farz banta hai ki vo appeasement chor ke Majority faith ke festivals pe bhi dhyan de. Agar BJP ki sarkar banti hai to hum unpe dawab banayenge but congress ki bani to ho sakta hai Saudi ke King Faisal ka B'day bhi national holiday ban jaye.

rskankara
October 10th, 2013, 10:01 AM
To make it appropriate, it will be better if you please can compare the list of holidays of MP, Delhi and haryana. This will surely help to understand the appeasement policy of states for benifited for all JL members and your santity of your.... otherwise it may be tark/kutark....


Haan Ji MP & Gujrat me Hindu festivals ki holiday jyada hai. Ye to ho gayi states ki baat ab union govt. ka farz banta hai ki vo appeasement chor ke Majority faith ke festivals pe bhi dhyan de. Agar BJP ki sarkar banti hai to hum unpe dawab banayenge but congress ki bani to ho sakta hai Saudi ke King Faisal ka B'day bhi national holiday ban jaye.

RathiJi
October 10th, 2013, 10:12 AM
To make it appropriate, it will be better if you please can compare the list of holidays of MP, Delhi and haryana. This will surely help to understand the appeasement policy of states for benifited for all JL members and your santity of your.... otherwise it may be tark/kutark....

Let me tell you, instead of doing tark/kutark first try to understand that question was raised on union govt. holiday list there was no question on holiday list of any state govt. but as some people here are determined to draw comparison between Congress & BJP and make them look equivalent , raised BJP question . That was answered by saying that BJP was never in full majority even then some people said that Congress was also not in full majority since 2004. Jaise 2004 me pehli baar Congress satta me aayi thee :). But to fulfill the desire of comparison the tark/kutark came to states which again I replied that state govt. holidays are fine with even giving two examples of other faiths holidays. See i didn't say these states were in India how come more Islamic/Christian Holiday. Alas, Even after that you again want to dig deep further into states->District->Taluka->Gram Panchayat to find some BJP angle.

rajpaldular
October 10th, 2013, 10:33 AM
Congress ke pass to purna bahumat hai 2004 se, sahi hai unhe gaali dena?


Sahi kaha Congress ke pass purna bahumat kabhi bhi nahi tha ???

1st Loksabha 1952 - congress 364 ( majority mark 245)

2nd loksabha 1957 - congress 371 ( majority mark 248)

3rd loksabha 1962 - congress 361 ( majority mark 248)

4th Loksabha 1967 - congress 283 ( majority mark 261)

5th Loksabha 1971 - congress 352 ( majority mark 260)

7th Loksabha 1980 - congress 374 ( majority mark 272)

8th Loksabha 1984 - Congress 416 ( majority mark 258)


First of all this to correct you about ur purna bahumat remark and secondly any idea why they don't get majority now ? we will throw them out this time Mr. desijat.

देसी जाट ! कोई है इसका उत्तर?

rajpaldular
October 10th, 2013, 10:43 AM
मैं जिस कंपनी में मस्कट में जब जॉब करता था तो मुझे दिवाली एवं अन्य हिन्दू त्यौहारों की छुट्टियाँ दी जाती थी।
और उनके जब त्यौहार आते थे तब तो पूरे ओमान में छुट्टी होती ही थी। इस प्रकार मैं डबल छुट्टियों का आनंद लेता था।


तो क्यों ना हमें भारत में भी ऐसा ही करना चाहिए।
केवल हमारे त्यौहारों की राष्टीय छुट्टी हो एवं अन्य धर्मों के लोगों के उनके त्यौहारों पर केवल उनको ही छुट्टी दी जाये।

RathiJi
October 10th, 2013, 03:50 PM
Congress ke pass to purna bahumat hai 2004 se, sahi hai unhe gaali dena?

Bilkul sahi nahi hai kyonki ab sirf gaali se kaam nahi chalega. Ab to joot chalega , desh ko Congress mukt karna hi hai.

rskankara
October 11th, 2013, 06:45 AM
वैसे जहां तक डबल छुट्टियों का आनंद लेने की बात है, यह तो कंपनी-कंपनी की सोच पर निर्भर है...... पर भारत में भी आजकल कुछ कंपनिया और प्राइवेट विश्वविद्यालय सिर्फ चुनिंदा 4-8 दिवसो/त्योहारों पर ही बंद होते है,और सभी दिन /त्योहारों पर काम-काज चालू रहता है.... साथ ही वह 8-10 दिन की आरएच छूटियाँ होती है यह केवल उनको ही दी जाती है जो लिखित छुट्टी मांगता है|

ravinderpannu
October 13th, 2013, 10:40 AM
pls reply to post no 195.


Oh no, how can BJP be wrong of anything?

rkumar
October 21st, 2013, 07:22 AM
Read this;

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Indian-Mujahideen-trying-to-turn-into-Qaida-style-network-Yasin-Bhatkal/articleshow/24455736.cms

Indian Mujahidin wants sharia law for entire India. As per IM Batala encounter was handiwork. However, as per congress eader Dig Vijay Singh, it was fake encounter.

RK^2

shekharjat
October 21st, 2013, 09:05 AM
देसी जाट ! कोई है इसका उत्तर?
Rajpal ji kasuta ilaaaj sa karr diya iss post se to apne desi bhai ka........pata nahi kaha hai koi jabab nahi de raha.....shayad desi sai videsi na bangaya ho....isse padd karr

abb yo nu kehvega ki......mai kisi ki post ka reply karne ke liye badhye nahi hu.......typical congressi strategi.......

jaise.......pm ke upar sawaalia nishan coal scam mai...manish tiwari says subject is subjudice......no comments please.......

parr agar gujrat mai kisi bhais ka luara bhi marr jata hai to...usme rss aur bjp ki sazis hoti hai arr siidhe taur parr modi ka istifa manga jata hai............

swaich
October 21st, 2013, 10:28 PM
I think we are not just talking about terrorism, we are talking of TERRORISM IN THE NAME OF RELIGION

And Maoism started off against state apathy and misgovernance, but on the way the maoists lost track and started targetting the innocent, BUT mind you again, not on the basis of religion.

Well I was talking about terrorism itself and it can be of any type. Terrorism in the name of religion is just one type of it.

If we are talking about terrorism in the name of religion, I consider genocides, state sponsored pogroms, demolitions of monuments as much terrorism as bomb blasts.

RathiJi
October 21st, 2013, 10:36 PM
Well I was talking about terrorism itself and it can be of any type. Terrorism in the name of religion is just one type of it.

If we are talking about terrorism in the name of religion, I consider genocides, state sponsored pogroms, demolitions of monuments as much terrorism as bomb blasts.

Another post is also waiting for your valuable comments on the same topic ,i.e, terrorism. It would be nice of you if you put some light there also.

http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?36087-Do-you-care-if-Ishrat-Jahan-encounter-was-real-or-fake/page3

Post # 41.

swaich
October 21st, 2013, 10:48 PM
Another post is also waiting for your valuable comments on the same topic ,i.e, terrorism. It would be nice of you if you put some light there also.

http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?36087-Do-you-care-if-Ishrat-Jahan-encounter-was-real-or-fake/page3

Post # 41.

Sure, why not.

Prikshit
October 23rd, 2013, 02:39 PM
Well I was talking about terrorism itself and it can be of any type. Terrorism in the name of religion is just one type of it.

If we are talking about terrorism in the name of religion, I consider genocides, state sponsored pogroms, demolitions of monuments as much terrorism as bomb blasts.
They are more or less related, there is no gainsaying the fact that it is propogated by fanatics on the name of religion.

swaich
October 23rd, 2013, 03:48 PM
They are more or less related, there is no gainsaying the fact that it is propogated by fanatics on the name of religion.

Absolutely. Fanatics of all religions think alike. They would like to impose their own ideology and reject others at whatever the cost.

RathiJi
October 23rd, 2013, 04:22 PM
Absolutely. Fanatics of all religions think alike. They would like to impose their own ideology and reject others at whatever the cost.

Which is most prevalent and practiced in Islam across the globe in present times and is even far far more than the fanatics of all other religions clubbed together. Do you agree ?

swaich
October 24th, 2013, 12:50 AM
Which is most prevalent and practiced in Islam across the globe in present times and is even far far more than the fanatics of all other religions clubbed together. Do you agree ?
It does seem so but is there a research where no. of fanatics in every religion have been counted?

RathiJi
October 24th, 2013, 01:33 AM
It does seem so but is there a research where no. of fanatics in every religion have been counted?

Lets start with list of terrorist organizations by religion in present context , if you have courage? I hope we will finally make a list and conclude on this.

I will start with Babbar Khalsa International and you can start with terrorist organization of any Hindu/Muslim/Sikh/Christian/Jew/Parsi/Buddhist/Shintoism/Jainism/Animism or etc.

Prikshit
October 28th, 2013, 02:32 PM
It does seem so but is there a research where no. of fanatics in every religion have been counted?
Well I won't say any religion in specific, but if you follow news for blasts happening worldwide you will get your answer.

prashantacmet
October 28th, 2013, 08:36 PM
It does seem so but is there a research where no. of fanatics in every religion have been counted?

do we need counting swaich? pretty evident that number of fanatics exceeds in Islam in comparison of any other religion....if anyone denies this , no-one can help him...and one day in past you also agreed on that..how much is the figure that is another matter..