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urmiladuhan
October 26th, 2002, 01:26 AM
Has the thread "Why do we always agree with each other on the board" been removed? I saw it this morning and decided to participate but now i can't find it! Anyway... somebody had posted there that Jatland members come on board because they are bored and have no friends and because they are away from their families (these are the only reasons he could come up with, unfortunately). To the poster of this opinionated statement, i would like to say that this is not true regarding all Jatland members. Some of us including me have been in this country long enough to have life outside of the board and i personally know members who have been here for more than a decade. The poster also was of the view that helping our poor community members by giving away money was the only way to show compassion and that members on board avoid doing that. How does the poster know if we have or have not made a difference in our community, in our own ways ( rather than his way which can only be through money). I hope i have made the point.

rajeshsindhu
October 26th, 2002, 03:51 AM
Duhan Ji:
Point well made! and well taken too!! People put their own ideas based on their own experinces, wisdom and interpretations. So nothing universal/personal about that.

But, can you please take this opprtunity to list down the number of ways bywhich anyone can or is help(ing) our community. May be someone, like me, will get some new idea! Lets start with some real ones that are in implementation by honourable members like you. I will be more than happy to know my such bretherns and their deeds.

-Rajesh

amarsirohi
October 26th, 2002, 05:15 PM
Duhan Ji,

that thread was posted by me.
was trying to locate it when i saw this post from you.
i guess we will have to request the moderator to come up with a explanation / solution....

urmiladuhan
October 27th, 2002, 02:24 AM
Dear Moderator (Mr. Sindhu),



I am unable to answer your question at this stage. As somebody said:

' If you have answers, i am all ears. But if you have questions then pardon me-- i have enough of my own".

I was a little surprised to know that you think you are heading a part of a site where bored/nothing better to do types of people come. If the moderator has such low respect for the members of the site, it then projects a poor image of Jatland.

rajeshsindhu
October 27th, 2002, 03:21 AM
I am unable to answer your question at this stage. As somebody said:

' If you have answers, i am all ears. But if you have questions then pardon me-- i have enough of my own".

This is not fair and balanced Duhan Ji!. Just asking Qs and no As ! Conversation cann't be sustained like this. I hope you meant it when you said something in the beginning!!

urmiladuhan
October 27th, 2002, 07:39 AM
Money is not the only way to contribute
towards society:
For eg.,
Gandhi paved way for India's independence
by his attitude. Millions of people world
wide still gain a lot in their lives from Gandhi's philosophies.

Marx only presented his ideas to the world
and not loads of money. Millions of people
live it everyday of their life.

Mother Teresa did not need to give away money to show compassion.

Rags to riches hero (senior Ambani) has turned dreams that perhaps many dream, into reality. He has contributed to society by being a role model, among other things.

On a more mundane level, when a girl becomes
the first one to matriculate, she is contributing to society by initiating a
chain reaction; when a soldier shows bravery
in the face of death, he is contributing
by spreading an attitude- we live in a society and not in isolation. Therefore
our actions and communications have impact
with or without our knowing.

When i said i do not have an answer, i meant
, not in a way that i think is significant.
Hope i am unambiguious this time.

I will perhaps start another thread
on why giving away money for charity is
not a charity in the long run.

rajeshsindhu
October 27th, 2002, 02:37 PM
Duhan Ji:
Thanks, also interesting to see the context shifting from out jat community to philosophical grounds.
First of all none has said that the money is 'only' way to contribute towards society( though money has always been involved in one way or other in any social reform/charity). Money is just a "tool" used to achieve most of social objectives, its not the solution itself.
Mother teresa spent her whole life asking, infact begging, money from west and changing millions of live using that money. SHe would not have done a bit without the charity money she got from the people. Compassion and philosophies doesn't make any sense to a hungry stomach and a poor student.
Gandhi sacrificed his whole life in one piece of cloth and in a ashram. He "sacrificed" thats why people were inspired of him, not because he got some educational degree etc. ya on national level contribution of him , our country is still paying for that - no need to tell how heavily.
Marx -- already died USSR and contemporary state of Russia etc are telling enough about Marx's ideas and corresponding contributions to the society.

Any way, original scope of contribution to society was limited to our Jat community. And i'm still to hear from honourables like you - how much difference have these personalities made to the lives of our jat bretherns whose financial/social condition has become worse despite these great contributions mentioned by you? To me, its the people like Sir Chootu Ram etc who have made much more difference to our jat community, not these other personalities; and our community need 'Chootu Ram's and alikes, not Gandhis or Marx or Mother teresa.

As for "money for charity" is concerned, if you are trying to say that sponsering a poor Jat child's school fee is not a charity in long run( and thus should not be encouraged) then perhaps its beyond my comprehansion and i have nothing to say about.

regards,
-Rajesh

urmiladuhan
October 28th, 2002, 12:02 AM
Dear Moderator,



The reason i participated in the thread was

for 2 reasons:



1. To point out to the 'official' of the site that he is labelling Jatland members as bored/nothing better to do types and hence they come to the board. Since the 'official'

himself comes on the board, it shows a poor self esteem of the statement maker which he is unjustified in projecting onto members, who probably have better reasons than that to visit the site.

2. To let the poster know that just because he thinks jatland members are misers and have

split personalities, doesn't mean his fact

becomes universal! and get the point home that many personalities have made a difference in the world without giving away money as charity. A broader thinking is all that is needed. Regarding Marx, Gandhi etc... are examples to lead the reader to the above conclusion about money... charity. No philosophy lives forever- history tells us so. That's all i had to say in the first place!



I am amazed why other jatland members have no objection to being labelled as miser/bored/

split personalities by Jatland official himself! Don't you all care?

dpdagar
October 28th, 2002, 01:40 AM
Hi All,
I have been observing some of the irritating threads on jatland for some time.
I want to request to the Rajesh .
Moderator is suppose to resolve troubles rather than creating troubles.
Most of the active members have already lost interest in this site…. If this behavior will continue there will not be anybody to oppose ur ideas or thoughts.

Please don’t bring ur personal ego between the discussions.

I hope no body will mind my strong words.
If my word hurts anybody in any way please accept my sincere apology.

rajeshsindhu
October 28th, 2002, 02:01 AM
Duhan Ji:
Please don't incarnate these selfcreated words like "bored", "miser", "split personalities" etc. None of them was ever mentioned. All my words were meant and talking about many of our people's poor commitment towards our 98% bretherns who really need help of 2% well to do people. Examples i put were based on real experiences of me, incluiding some members of jatland itself. Those who fit into it are fitting into it and those who don't are anyway out of the context of it. Lack of any examples bywhich our members are sacrificing something for our comunity's well being also kind of strenghtening my words( i wish not so). i'm still waiting to hear from you some real examples of innovative ways of helping our community( the 98% who really need) by people like you.
Thats why i said in the very beginning itself "people write with their own experiences,wisdom and intrepretations. So no any universal/personal about it".

Hope it clarifies enough.

rajeshsindhu
October 28th, 2002, 02:16 AM
DPD Ji:
History here says that those who wrote "strong words" have been labbeled egoist and have become center of controvery. And i got your point. Thats why i am slowly getting out of this moderator mess(as you can see) as people extrapolate "too much" out of moderator's words and deeds.
But problem is - not many of those who i talked are ready to take the moderator's seat. I openly inviting you to be on this seat. And i also invite others who are interested!!!
And i sincerely hope that once this moderator tag leaves me, people will not extrapolate that much and won't be that sensitive.

cheers!
--Rajesh

shokeen123
October 28th, 2002, 02:35 AM
Dear Mr. MODERATOR:

It is obvious that you always seem to imply “My way or no way” technique! You do it very well using your exclusively held privilege (click of the mouse) by deleting anything that has personal reference to you as a moderator or anything contrary to your own idea.

What Ms. Duhan is referring to has broader worldview implication on the human attitude. First of all, to progress (like Guptas, Khannas, and Ambanis), we must get out of our Jat mindset, and not be limited in our thinking. Ms. Duhan is simply asserting the ideology of a few of the great leaders who changed the world in some way. Their ideology changed masses, and left an indelible mark on the history of mankind. Let us not be nitpickers, and kill the messenger? In your responses you tend to express a lot of your anguish but never a clear distinction that would lead to a concrete idea? I have tried to respond to some of your statements:

************************************************** ********************

"First of all none has said that the money is 'only' way to contribute towards society ( though money has always been involved in one way or other in any social reform/charity).”
************************************************** ********************

Answer: Your statement didn’t come across as such. Your genuine concern was over-shadowed by your loadfull of anger and frustration. Getting angry alone will not change our status quo. Unfortunately the posting is not there for the readers to make that distinction themselves.

************************************************** ********************
“Mother teresa spent her whole life asking, infact begging, money from west and changing millions of live using that money. SHe would not have done a bit without the charity money she got from the people. Compassion and philosophies doesn't make any sense to a hungry stomach and a poor student.”
************************************************** ********************

Answer: I couldn’t agree more with you! Mother Teresa was able to get a lot from the West and help fight disease and hunger of Calcutta’s poor (which defies your contention that compassion can’t feed a hungry stomach). But you are missing a point here! You see Mother Teresa had to have change of her own heart first (in this context a change of philosophy)! She came from a wealthy family and decided to become a nun at the age of 18. Her call to serve humanity was what got world's attention (money). The charity poured in, she didn’t beg? She didn’t travel to the West (Buckingham Palace), Her Royal Highness (Princess Diana) traveled to the Calcutta slums to meet this charismatic woman, and offered to help. You don't get a nobel peace prize, or title of sainthood by just begging?

************************************************** ********************
“Gandhi sacrificed his whole life in one piece of cloth and in a ashram. He "sacrificed" thats why people were inspired of him, not because he got some educational degree etc. ya on national level contribution of him, our country is still paying for that - no need to tell how heavily.”
************************************************** ********************

Answer: Let’s have the chronology in order first! Long before Gandhi took on to loincloth and long before he called ashram his home, he got us all independence with his non-violence movement. For heaven’s sake, let’s be thankful to the old man? Does the word freedom mean anything to you? Had it not been for Gandhi, we could still be a British Colony, and still have our Jat issues (social and economical) to deal with! Wouldn’t that have been a double jeopardy?

His material sacrifices became known later, as he struggled to fight poverty within the country. World is the witness to Gandhi’s legacy. Other civil rights leaders such as Martin Luther King followed his footsteps of non-violence and got freedom from slavery. How can you not acknowledge such a contribution? Had it not been for Gandhi’s ideology, you would still be classified as a “colored” person in America?

Are there flaws with any philosophy? You bet, there are! And it you are referring to the India-Pakistan conflict because Gandhi had no other practical solution to cool off Hindu-Muslim tension then, you are dead wrong! There isn’t a solution for such a conflict even to date!

************************************************** ********************
"Marx -- already died USSR and contemporary state of Russia etc are telling enough about Marx's ideas and corresponding contributions to the society. Any way, original scope of contribution to society was limited to our Jat community."
************************************************** ********************

Answer: Carl Marx believed that philosophy ought to be employed in practice to change the world. Perhaps Marx's greatest contribution to modern thinking (as opposed to his economic theories which have been subject to various revisions) is his comprehensive investigation into the role of Ideology, or how social being determines consciousness, which results in certain (for the most part unconscious) belief and value systems depending on the particular economic infrastructure pertaining at the time.

Marx's "materialist conception of history" is based on the premise, that human beings, in all historical eras, enter into certain productive relationships and that these relations give rise to a certain form of social consciousness. He maintained that: "It is not the consciousness of men that determines their being, but, on the contrary, their social being that determines their consciousness . . ..”

If Russia is in the state it is today, it’s because of what is happening around the world. No empire is strong enough to last forever. History is full of such details, the Mogul Empire, and as strong as it was in its hay days, came down tumbling. So what if USSR collapsed, the Marx philosophy still exists? Philosophy never dies it lives forever.

************************************************** ********************
“And i'm still to hear from honourables like you - how much difference have these personalities made to the lives of our jat bretherns whose financial/social condition has become worse despite these great contributions mentioned by you?”
************************************************** ********************

Answer: The change or difference you are talking about will not happen overnight, and will not solely be brought on by the likes of Ms. Duhan (meaning the educated elite on this board). It will be a grass-root effort, which shall begin with the family unit.

************************************************** ********************"To me, its the people like Sir Chootu Ram etc who have made much more difference to our jat community, not these other personalities; and our community need 'Chootu Ram's and alikes, not Gandhis or Marx or Mother teresa."
************************************************** ********************

Answer: Unfortunately, not everyone shares your thinking! Some us grew up reading and practicing the philosophies of such role models, notwithstanding the humble contributions of Sir Chhottu Ram to our community. It is a pity that in order to sound sympathetic to the Jat cause or prove allegiance to the community, the members on this board would have to take to defying philosophies of famous world leaders.

************************************************** ********************
“As for "money for charity" is concerned, if you are trying to say that sponsoring a poor Jat child's school fee is not a charity in long run (and thus should not be encouraged) then perhaps its beyond my comprehansion and i have nothing to say about.”
************************************************** ********************

Answer: Offering token money as scholarship to a handful will amount only to a drop in the ocean, or a Band-Aid to the gaping wound. What we are dealing with is a much larger social problem, and certainly blaming people who are brain storming (to eradicate such social disparity) will not solve anything other than demoralizing them.

Finally, once again, I find repeating my favorite phrase, "think globally, act locally." If our ideology can only include a narrow agenda (Jatland), I am afraid we will have lost our ability to think broadly and creatively, and help our clan!

Ideally speaking, a moderator has the poor distinction of being someone who has no stake in a discussion. He/she is only instrumental to facilitate the dialogue, without taking any sides, let alone impose strongly held personal beliefs. When personal bias are reflected in a debate, it no longer remains a credible discussion, it becomes selective censorship.

It is reassuring to see that postings under this section will no longer be subject to indiscriminate deletion.

Sujata

urmiladuhan
October 28th, 2002, 03:13 AM
Dear Moderator,

I am certainly not of the opinion that you should quit. I was merely of the opinion that it is perhaps not good trying forcing people to an action using guilt or shame.

We can always agree to disagree and leave it at that.

rajeshsindhu
October 28th, 2002, 08:08 AM
Interesting!
Its a not a reply, but circumstances are tempting and suitable here to reveal something. so please allow me to reveal some experiences i have had as being able to see both sides of the curtain :-
On one side i see emails to admin for deleting some posts by someone that one is finding objectionable just because it didn't fit into her/his own way of living/thinking. On the other hand admin is taken to task for deleting posts in a biased fashion. i really didn't(and don't) know how to handle the double faces of such personalities- one on the public plateforms, one behind the curtains. Thats why i'm feeling so happy for not being in moderation any more!

Anyway no any provocation will force me to write any more on this thread. Its just plain wastage of vital energy through nonproductive channels.
I agree with you Duhan ji: lets agree to disagree and leave it as there.
And the biggest lesson i learnt is : words are just words. they can't carry the emotions along with them. And meaning of any word is subject to distortion without the emotional tag to it.

cheers!
-Rajesh

shokeen123
October 28th, 2002, 08:52 PM
Mr. Sindhu:

Here is the clarification:

1. Ms. Duhan and I can agree to disagree?

2. Ms. Duhan had made direct personal reference to me in her comment; therefore I had merely provided feedback to the Jatland Administrator (knowing not it would invariably end up being you even there!), so that she could rephrase her comments.

3. By any stretch of the imagination the feedback did not request to delete the entire post. Please don't tag a healthy feedback to Jatland as "behind the curtain communication." People should have this choice?

4. The entire post was removed because of rather much direct and embarrassing references made to you by Ranvir and Saurabh about your indiscriminate deletion of certain posts.

Sujata

urmiladuhan
October 28th, 2002, 10:47 PM
"He's a jolly good fellow, he's a jolly good fellow... he's a jolly good fellow... so say all of us!!"



--A farewell ode for Mr. Sindhu on his retirement.

urmiladuhan
October 29th, 2002, 01:02 AM
Sujata (Oct 28, 2002 10:22 a.m.):

Mr. Sindhu:



Here is the clarification:



2. Ms. Duhan had made direct personal reference to me in her comment; therefore I had merely provided feedback to the Jatland Administrator (knowing not it would invariably end up being you even there!), so that she could rephrase her comments.



Sujata



There you go again! I don't waste my time making personal references. But i may have to if you keep attacking me over and over.

I am trying to keep Jatland above personal insults. Perhaps you can try the same.

shokeen123
October 29th, 2002, 01:09 AM
Amen!

rajeshsindhu
October 29th, 2002, 02:55 AM
Hey Folks!
Please move on!
Now i'm enjoying so much liberty of being just member as you folks have enjoyed.
Believe me, i'm here to make friends, not enemies. But unfortunately, moderator's role has given me just opposite. Thats why i have told the moderator in me to get lost.
So anyone who has/had any grudge with the moderator should please be happy, and please don't pass all that to me - a member, Rajesh Sindhu.
i never had any altercation/accusation prior to my being a moderator. So i want to be like that again!

But beware i have more liberty now to reveal some people's real faces and identities if they provoke/taunt me too much!!!

cheers!
-Rajesh

saketdhankar
October 29th, 2002, 06:30 AM
hi all,

This thread has many important conclusions that we all can draw and may be learn:

1. Moderating Jats is a tough job and challenging indeed. Leading Jats is almost next to impossible. Thats why we are always looking for someone who can lead us? and have failed to get a leader....

2. If we can fight so much on this 'virtual world Jatland.com', god knows how much we can fight on real disputes/differences with our real brothers on matters like property ??

3. Jats fail to identify their well wishers and are always sceptical that people are all out to frame them even if some of them indeed want to help them.

4. One of the biggest enemies of Jats is their ego and they themselves.

5. Even when they apologise, they draw battlelines for the battle ahead.

These are based on my 22.5 years of age. Please accept my apologies beforehand if i am wrong and delete this post. If some elder people of our community can verify these, i will be glad and thankful.

saket.