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urmiladuhan
November 15th, 2002, 04:40 AM
I have seen vegetarians not having eggs/egg products but no problems with milk and milk products. I know from reliable sources that the eggs supplied in U.S markets are unfertilized and hence cannot turn into a live form upon incubation. The dairy farmers
kill majority of the male chickens for meat purposes keeping only the female chickens for unfertilized egg production. (the rationale being that it saves on space and resources) for the farmer-- although igniting sentiments of male chauvenists!! This makes eggs no
different than other acceptable edible animal protein for vegetarians such as milk/dahi/yogurt. Not eating egg/egg products for religious reasons but consuming milk at the same time doesn't make sense in this scenario.

On the other hand, cheese (not paneer) in US and european countries is mostly made using an enzyme (rennet) gotten from calf stomach lining after killing it for meat purposes. Though the enzyme is used in miniscule amounts during cheese making, it should still
make cheese a non vegetarian food, unless the
label says: microbial rennet instead of calf
rennet. So are vegetarians really vegetarians?
d

biotechs2001
November 15th, 2002, 05:26 AM
Dear Friend
1. U must know that " Genes( Genetic Material, Chromosomes) r the source of Continuity of Life" and 1set of Gene comes from mother and 2nd set from father of an animal. So Even if egg is unfertilized still it have half set of life.
On other hand ur milk products dont have any genes.

2. Now a days renin and all usual enzymes are synthesized by chemical process. Crude enzymes are not used for any food process pupose in general, thats for sure.

urmiladuhan
November 16th, 2002, 12:23 AM
krishan kumar (Nov 14, 2002 06:56 p.m.):







Dear Friend







1. U must know that " Genes( Genetic Material, Chromosomes) r the source of Continuity of Life" and 1set of Gene comes from mother and 2nd set from father of an animal. So Even if egg is unfertilized still it have half set of life.













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It is amazing how the definition of a vegetarian diet changes from person to person. For a Buddhist, it would probably be







to not kill any life form for any matter (not stepping on groung crawling insects);







in some Hindu sects, it would be not to







kill animal life form for food purposes; for others it may be not to consume any animal product including milk or use leather. My post questions the belief of vegetarians who







don't eat eggs believing it to have potential life form but are O.K with milk. Milk and egg here are simply secreted products! Aren't







they? As to having one set of genes in an unfertilized egg, i think even milk has cells







sloughed off from inner lining of milk ducts etc. Mothers milk has immunity providing cells for the benefit of offsprins. Isn't it so? And all cells have genes. Some immunizations shots have live but greatly weakened disease causing cells. According to your argument it would seem vegetarians should not get certain immunization shots!







I don't see a reasoning in haing milk and not having eggs based on any classification but misconception.





-------------------------------------------

On other hand ur milk products dont have any genes.















2. Now a days renin and all usual enzymes are synthesized by chemical process.







WHEN A LABEL SAYS CALF RENNET- IT MEANS IT IS DERIVED FROM CALF'S SOMACH- WHICH IS BY KILLING THE ANIMAL FOR MEAT PURPOSES AND DURING THE PROCESS TALING THE STOMACH OUT AND EXTRACTING THE ENZYME FROM THERE! Crude enzymes are not used for any food process pupose in general, thats for sure.

biotechs2001
November 19th, 2002, 03:19 PM
Mr. Duhan,
We can discuss here Jat opinions or maximum Hindu, I really dont know thats the other religion says.
1.for clear ur concept... Egg is not a secretory product like milk.... Egg is a reproductive product and have potetial future life.. U can easily produce next genereation from unfertilised egg, although this animal will be not be fertile for next generation.
But I openly challenge if anybody in the World can produce artificially an animal excluding the Eggs Involvement, Vice-versa is common.
2. the Immunity things from milk u r talking about from milk are Antibodies( A Protein) not any cells, both are totally different things.

urmiladuhan
November 19th, 2002, 10:38 PM
krishan kumar (Nov 19, 2002 04:49 a.m.):
Mr. Duhan,
We can discuss here Jat opinions or maximum Hindu, I really dont know thats the other religion says.
1.for clear ur concept... Egg is not a secretory product like milk.... Egg is a reproductive product and have potetial future life.. U can easily produce next genereation from unfertilised egg, although this animal will be not be fertile for next generation.
But I openly challenge if anybody in the World can produce artificially an animal excluding the Eggs Involvement, Vice-versa is common.
2. the Immunity things from milk u r talking about from milk are Antibodies( A Protein) not any cells, both are totally different things.
HULLO, THESE DAYS SOMATIC CELLS CAN BE CLONED FROM ANY PART OF THE BODY (NOT NECESSARILY FROM UNFERTILIZED EGGS)- AS IN CASE OF DOLLY SHEEP WHICH WAS CLONED FROM MAMMARY GLAND CELLS. THIS FACT DOES NOT MAKE EGGS ANY DIFFERENT FROM OTHER BODY CELLS.
MILK HAS LEUKOCYTES (immunity providing cells) WHICH HAVE GENES. PERHAPS YOU WOULD AGREE THAT CELLS LINING THE SECRETORY DUCT IN THE ANIMAL GET SLOUGHED OFF INTO THE MILK NATURALLY (THOSE WOULD HAVE GENES TOO). I DON'T THINK VEGETARIANS GO INTO DETAILS AS ABOVE WHEN DECIDING WHICH FOODS ARE TRULY VEGETARIAN. I THINK VEGETARIANISM IS ABOUT NOT KILLING A LIFE FORM. IF GENES WERE A POINT OF CONTENTION, VEGETARIANS
WOULD NOT EAT PLANTS OR EVEN YOGURT AS IT HAS LIVE BACTERIAL CELLS.

biotechs2001
November 19th, 2002, 11:17 PM
Miss/Mrs. Urmila,
Serious Objection!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
1. Leukocyes are bigger in size than milk screting cells... how can they come in milk....Milk have only few varieties of Immunoglobin proteins.
2. Who said Dolly was produced without Ova.... Just Nucleus was taken from Udder cells and was injected in denucleated Egg. growning capacity(Pleuropotency) in only and only in egg cells....
3. Discuss is about vegetarianism(Plant eater)

P.S.:- people please read elementary cellbiology,immunology......and little bit Biotechnology before giving antique examples like Dollyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy


HULLO, THESE DAYS SOMATIC CELLS CAN BE CLONED FROM ANY PART OF THE BODY (NOT NECESSARILY FROM UNFERTILIZED EGGS)- AS IN CASE OF DOLLY SHEEP WHICH WAS CLONED FROM MAMMARY GLAND CELLS. THIS FACT DOES NOT MAKE EGGS ANY DIFFERENT FROM OTHER BODY CELLS.
MILK HAS LEUKOCYTES (immunity providing cells) WHICH HAVE GENES. PERHAPS YOU WOULD AGREE THAT CELLS LINING THE SECRETORY DUCT IN THE ANIMAL GET SLOUGHED OFF INTO THE MILK NATURALLY (THOSE WOULD HAVE GENES TOO). I DON'T THINK VEGETARIANS GO INTO DETAILS AS ABOVE WHEN DECIDING WHICH FOODS ARE TRULY VEGETARIAN. I THINK VEGETARIANISM IS ABOUT NOT KILLING A LIFE FORM. IF GENES WERE A POINT OF CONTENTION, VEGETARIANS
WOULD NOT EAT PLANTS OR EVEN YOGURT AS IT HAS LIVE BACTERIAL CELLS.[/quote]

urmiladuhan
November 20th, 2002, 12:12 AM
[quote]krishan kumar (Nov 19, 2002 12:47 p.m.):
Miss/Mrs. Urmila,
Serious Objection!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
1. Leukocyes are bigger in size than milk screting cells... how can they come in milk....Milk have only few varieties of Immunoglobin proteins.
2. Who said Dolly was produced without Ova.... Just Nucleus was taken from Udder cells and was injected in denucleated Egg. growning capacity(Pleuropotency) in only and only in egg cells....
3. Discuss is about vegetarianism(Plant eater)

P.S.:- people please read elementary cellbiology,immunology......and little bit Biotechnology before giving antique examples like Dollyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

FOR INFORMATION ON LEUKOCYTES IN MILK, YOU MAY LIKE TO VISIT THE FOLLOWING WEBSITE:
http://classes.aces.uiuc.edu/AnSci308/milkcomp.html
ON TO YOUR SECOND QUESTION:
THE DEBATE IS ON WHETHER GERM CELL GENES(CHROMOSOMAL DNA) ALONE HAS THE CAPACITY TO PRODUCE A LIVE ADULT- AND THE ANSWER IS 'NO' BECAUSE IT HAS BEEN SHOWN IN CASE OF DOLLY THAT MAMMARY GLAND=UDDER CELLS (WHICH ARE NOT GERM CELLS) CAN BE INSERTED INTO EMPTY EGG CELL (WITH NO CHROMOSOMAL DNA)- TO PRODUCE AN ADULT SHEEP!! THIS SHEEP IS A 'CLONE' I.E., AN EXACT CARBON COPY OF THE ANIMAL WHICH DONATED THE CHROMOSOMAL DNA FOR INSERTION (SOMATIC CELL DNA). IT SEEMS YOU HAVE MISINTERPRETED MY EARLIER ARGUMENT BECAUSE THE DISCUSSION WAS NOT ON OOCYTES BUT ON THE REDUNDANCY OF GERM CELL DNA.

TO KEEP THE DISCUSSION FROM GOING OFF TRACK I MAY REMIND THAT THE DEBATE IS NOT ON PLANT EATERS BUT WHETHER THE BASIS ON WHICH EGGS ARE NOT EATEN BY VEGETARIANS BUT MILK AND MILK PRODUCTS ARE CONSUMED, HOLDS ANY GOOD?

DOLLY IS NOT 'ANTIQUE'- IT WAS MADE ONLY SOME 4 YEARS BACK!!

biotechs2001
November 20th, 2002, 02:48 PM
Urmila,
U r totally devaited from the topic of Veggi's & Milk.

1 sometime u says Egg is scretory product... Rediculus... Is Ovary(Egg Producer)is excretory organ... If so how males can survice without ovary.....
U know I am a simple Minded Jat from a village I dont know any Science.... So please explain if Leukocyte can excreted in Milk why not RBC which are smaller in size and milk should be red in color instead of white......

if u r just intrested to find the exceptions.... I can hapily show u live cells in water.. and air also.... So according to Urmila Theory of Veggi.... men should not breath and take water
U refrence..regarding Urbana-Champaign site doesn,t enlight me anything new, I Knew this site since years and i thoughly read the refrences which are site by auther in past.

OHH really clone aise banta hai mujhe to pata hee nahi tha...............hahahahah..


FOR INFORMATION ON LEUKOCYTES IN MILK, YOU MAY LIKE TO VISIT THE FOLLOWING WEBSITE:
http://classes.aces.uiuc.edu/AnSci308/milkcomp.html
ON TO YOUR SECOND QUESTION:
THE DEBATE IS ON WHETHER GERM CELL GENES(CHROMOSOMAL DNA) ALONE HAS THE CAPACITY TO PRODUCE A LIVE ADULT- AND THE ANSWER IS 'NO' BECAUSE IT HAS BEEN SHOWN IN CASE OF DOLLY THAT MAMMARY GLAND=UDDER CELLS (WHICH ARE NOT GERM CELLS) CAN BE INSERTED INTO EMPTY EGG CELL (WITH NO CHROMOSOMAL DNA)- TO PRODUCE AN ADULT SHEEP!! THIS SHEEP IS A 'CLONE' I.E., AN EXACT CARBON COPY OF THE ANIMAL WHICH DONATED THE CHROMOSOMAL DNA FOR INSERTION (SOMATIC CELL DNA). IT SEEMS YOU HAVE MISINTERPRETED MY EARLIER ARGUMENT BECAUSE THE DISCUSSION WAS NOT ON OOCYTES BUT ON THE REDUNDANCY OF GERM CELL DNA.

TO KEEP THE DISCUSSION FROM GOING OFF TRACK I MAY REMIND THAT THE DEBATE IS NOT ON PLANT EATERS BUT WHETHER THE BASIS ON WHICH EGGS ARE NOT EATEN BY VEGETARIANS BUT MILK AND MILK PRODUCTS ARE CONSUMED, HOLDS ANY GOOD?

DOLLY IS NOT 'ANTIQUE'- IT WAS MADE ONLY SOME 4 YEARS BACK!![/quote]

urmiladuhan
November 20th, 2002, 10:27 PM
BYE BYE MR. 'KNOW IT ALL' IT WASN'T NICE DEBATING WITH YOU. I COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND NOW WHEN YOU SAID ELSEWHERE THAT PEOPLE AVOID YOU ON LIVE CHAT!!

biotechs2001
November 20th, 2002, 11:25 PM
[quote]urmila duhan (Nov 20, 2002 11:57 a.m.):
BYE BYE MR. 'KNOW IT ALL' IT WASN'T NICE DEBATING WITH YOU. I COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND NOW WHEN YOU SAID ELSEWHERE THAT PEOPLE AVOID YOU ON LIVE CHAT!![/qu
ohh thats sad.... ab hamare jaat logo ko cloning technique and immunology and Dev.bio...kaun batayega.......
maine tau mazak kar raha tha....apne log avoid karke kaha jayenge.
but please gives some standard refrences...not like Punjab Kesari or urbana champagne

shokeen123
November 21st, 2002, 08:55 PM
“I have seen vegetarians not having eggs/egg products but no problems with milk and milk products. I know from reliable sources that the eggs supplied in U.S markets are unfertilized and hence cannot turn into a live form upon incubation. This makes eggs no different than other acceptable edible animal protein for vegetarians such as milk/dahi/yogurt. Not eating egg/egg products for religious reasons but consuming milk at the same time doesn't make sense in this scenario.” So are vegetarians really vegetarians? (Urmila Duhan)

The jury is still out on this one! This is a complex and convoluted issue, and precisely the reason I had stayed out of the debacle. This debate has been going on for as long as I can remember, and will go on till cows come home! I am no expert in this field, and harbor no illusion that my explanation will completely alleviate the apprehension on this issue. However, let us examine and compare the different principles and philosophies behind the old and new interpretation of the meaning of vegetarianism:

Argument in favor of milk being an animal product:

Among ancient cultures, the Hindus - traditionally considered the architects who laid out the principles of vegetarianism - regard dairy products as vegetarian. However, from an ethical, medical and modern environmental viewpoint, as well as from a vegan perspective, milk and milk products cannot be accepted as vegetarian, because they are obtained from animals.

According to medical science, milk is an animal product with a molecular structure of animal origin. For example, if butter burns in a pot it gives off a smell similar to that of roasting animal flesh. However differently obtained, animal fat and butter are nevertheless similar, and should be eliminated to treat certain diseases and ailments directly linked to the consumption of animal products.

Milk serves also as the vehicle of transmission of some diseases from animals to humans, many animal diseases can easily mutate into specific human ailments. Modern science can also detect the presence of blood and pus cells in milk, kept below a specified limit through quality control. Vegans also object to the cruelty inherent in milk production and the commercial systems used to house and raise the animals.

Finally, the issue of eggs must also be confronted. Although it might be argued that using non-fertilized eggs addresses the ethical objections raised in defense of life, the cellular biological structure of the egg cannot be denied. The physiological impact of eggs on human health is therefore comparable with that of other flesh foods.

Argument in favor of milk being vegetarian diet:

Mother’s milk is the only nourishment available to a newborn infant, a characteristic common to all mammals since life originated on planet earth. Although a child may exceptionally be fed a dairy-free infant formula for medical reasons, despite unparalleled developments in human biology and medicine the use of mother’s milk remains the preferred option. Breast-feeding causes no physical discomfort or pain and no health or life risk to the mother. On the contrary, retaining breast milk is painful and it must be drained if not fed to the infant. Likewise, dairy products have been regarded as vegetarian foods because they are presumed to have been obtained without violence or risk to the health or the lives of dairy animals.

The Jains are a very orthodox non-violent Indian community who do not consume any root vegetables to avoid destroying any plant life, nor vegetables and fruits that support any form of parasitic life, but milk is nevertheless considered to be vegetarian, though certain health and hygiene guidelines must be maintained to procure and prepare the milk once the suckling calves have got their due share.

Milk products are not only consumed freely by everyone in such communities, but are also used by their holymen, saints and sadhus, and are considered holy enough as an offering to their gods and deities in all social and religious rituals. Non-violence, the preservation of life and the human bond conveyed through the mother’s milk are important concepts to them. Therefore, if milk products were not to be regarded as vegetarian, the act of suckling a baby would be akin to cannibalism. Most importantly, the molecular structure of milk does not consist of a biological cellular structure from which the basic building blocks of life are formed.

- Dr. P. K. Jain, Founder Chairman, Vegetarian Society of Botswana.

In the modern world however, there is no such thing as just vegetarianism and non-vegetarianism. Here is the whole nine-yard: on VEGETARIAN CAPITALISM at: http://www.zianet.com/boje/vc/vegetarian_capitalism.htm

Twelve Types of Vegetarianisms and Ten Ethical Senses for Becoming Vegetarian

V0 - Carnivore eats only meat, avoids vegetables
V1 - Lacto-ovo vegetarians eat eggs and diary but not meat
V2 - Lacto-vegetarians eat dairy but no eggs or meat
V3 - Ovo-vegetarians eat eggs but exclude dairy products and meat (eggitarians)
V4 - Vegans eat no meat, dairy products, or eggs (and forgo honey)
V5 - Macrobiotic vegetarians live on whole grains, sea and land vegetables, beans
V6 - Natural hygienists eat plant foods, combine foods in and fast periodically
V7 - Raw foodist vegetarians eat only uncooked non-meat foods
V8 - Fruitarians eat fruits, nuts, seeds, and certain vegetables, and
V9 - Semivegitarians eat small amounts of fish and or chicken in their diets (can add fishitarians and polotarians to this group). Some prefer the label Omnivore.
V10 - Noninterventionist vegetarians eat no living things for food except what has fallen such as nuts, fruits and vegetables and the seeds that can be harvested without killing the host plant.
V11 - Jain vegetarian eat vegan but will not wear leather, silk or wool and practice the Ahimsa philosophy of reverence to all life, including human life.
V12 - Deep Vegetarianism, or Mother Earth vegetarianism, or Eco vegetarianism, and parts of eco-feminism philosophy are compatible with the idea of Ahimsa capitalism.

Ethical Senses of Becoming some type of Vegetarian:

E1 - Health - reverence for our body
E2 - Animal suffering and death - reverence for animal suffering
E3 - Impartiality or disinterested moral concern - Range of ethical positions from being totally vegetarian will disrupt the global employment economy, to being vegan will save animal lives, and deep ecology positions that being vegetarian is essential to being ecological.
E4 - Environmental concerns - give Mother Earth a break
E5 - The manipulation of Nature - no Frankenfoods, no genetic food additives, no cloning
E6 - World hunger and social injustice - if Americans become vegan, there would be enough food for the rest of the world to live
E7 - Interconnected forms of oppression - You are what you eat. Eat flesh and other forms of violence become tolerable, from war to genocide.
E8 - Interspecies kinship and compassion - If man is most evolved animal species, why does he eat his animal brethren and sisteren?
E9 - Universal nonviolence - Pursue Ahimsa and restrain yourself from as much himsa as humanly possible.
E10 - Spiritual and religious arguments - Dead Sea scrolls say Jesus was a vegetarian, not an omnivore; Buddha was a vegetarian; Mahavir brought vegetarianism to the Jains.

So conceptually speaking, religious minded people who think, “An egg is an egg is an egg,” don’t usually care for the “Think Tank” science being discussed here. When it comes to religion, what so ever the mechanism, their sacrosanct belief holds true. Try explaining the art and science of unfertilized eggs to “Tau” you will know the answer!

Gandhi had a rude awakening when he read the copy of Henry Salt's “Plea for vegetarianism” which discusses the moral reasons for being a vegetarian - the inherent violence present in the eating of meat, and the non-violence that could be achieved from abstaining from it.

Leo Tolstoy was another big influence on Gandhi’s change of heart. "(Flesh eating) is simply immoral, as it involves the performance of an act which is contrary to moral feeling-killing. By killing man suppresses in himself, unnecessarily, the highest spiritual capacity-that of sympathy and pity towards living creatures like himself-and by violating his own feelings becomes cruel." Leo Tolstoy

Finally, microscopically (nit-pickingly) speaking, that is if we want to know “why the chicken crossed the road?” we will have just as many theories on this, and looking for truth will lead to looking for a needle in a haystack. The mind, sharp but not broad, sticks at every point but does not move (Tagore). My personal thinking is that no one understands everything, and no one needs to! Perhaps Einstein said it more eloquently: “Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction. Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods!”

If we shut our door to all errors truth will be shut out. Only he who has a spirit of extreme humility can be said to have a resolute intellect. (Gandhi).

People, let us leave the personal attacks out of the debates! We owe it to each other...

Sujata

urmiladuhan
November 21st, 2002, 09:51 PM
THANKYOU FOR THE INFORMATION (SUJATA). SHOULD NON VIOLENCE BE THE BASIS FOR VEGETARIANISM, IT REMAINS HARD TO SEE FOODS BLACK OR WHITE GIVEN TONNES OF SPECIES FROM VIRUSES TO MAMMALS.

biotechs2001
November 21st, 2002, 10:18 PM
urmila duhan (Nov 21, 2002 11:26 a.m.):
THANKYOU FOR THE INFORMATION (SUJATA). SHOULD NON VIOLENCE BE THE BASIS FOR VEGETARIANISM, IT REMAINS HARD TO SEE FOODS BLACK OR WHITE GIVEN TONNES OF SPECIES FROM VIRUSES TO MAMMALS.

Simple minded Krishan is scretching His Head Again.......
Viruses ka Vegetarian ya Non-veg food se kya lena - dena..???? Virus is neither a plant nor an animal.

shokeen123
November 21st, 2002, 10:39 PM
"SHOULD NON VIOLENCE BE THE BASIS FOR VEGETARIANISM?"

Urmila:

If Gandhi could live with that concept, it is conceivable for me to accept the scenario in light of humanity!

Sujata

urmiladuhan
November 21st, 2002, 10:42 PM
krishan kumar (Nov 21, 2002 11:48 a.m.):

[quote]urmila duhan (Nov 21, 2002 11:26 a.m.):



Simple minded Krishan is scretching His Head Again.......

Viruses ka Vegetarian ya Non-veg food se kya lena - dena..???? Virus is neither a plant nor an animal.



Attention jatland members: i see a heckler

in this thread! just wanted to let you all know :)

urmiladuhan
November 21st, 2002, 10:54 PM
HI SUJATA,

NON VIOLENCE AS THE BASIS OF VEGETARIANISM WORKS FOR ME TOO. I DECIDED TO INCLUDE EGGS IN DIET AS POULTRY EGGS CONSUMPTION DOES NOT INVOLVE KILLING OF LIFE FORM. ON THE OTHER HAND CHEESE MADE WITH CALF RENNET DOES!! IT SEEMS WEIRD WHEN I SEE MY KIND OF VEGETARIANS

HAVING NO PROBLEM WITH CHEESE BUT A COMPLETE NO-NO FOR EGGS!

shokeen123
November 21st, 2002, 11:15 PM
Dear simple minded KK Bhatijay:

My comments above have established that, if milk products were not to be regarded as vegetarian, the act of suckling a baby would be akin to cannibalism. So in a way milk is pseudo vegetarian, but generally accepted concept.

However on the flip side of the coin, the same animal fat, e.g., mother's or cow's milk, or butter should be eliminated to prevent certain diseases (coronary artery disease) and ailments directly linked to the consumption of animal products. Virus in this case, a vector is transmissible via body secretions (milk)? A lactating mother has been known to pass on immunity as well as diseases to her infant.

Now Sujata is scratching her head too!

anurana
November 21st, 2002, 11:25 PM
We have very knowledgeable people discussing highly technical things here.
Is it safe to assume that the same knowlegeable people will be responsible enough to maintain the decorum on the site.
I am very hopeful.

shokeen123
November 21st, 2002, 11:42 PM
"NON VIOLENCE AS THE BASIS OF VEGETARIANISM WORKS FOR ME TOO. I DECIDED TO INCLUDE EGGS IN DIET AS POULTRY EGGS CONSUMPTION DOES NOT INVOLVE KILLING OF LIFE FORM. ON THE OTHER HAND CHEESE MADE WITH CALF RENNET DOES!! IT SEEMS WEIRD WHEN I SEE MY KIND OF VEGETARIANS"

Urmila:

Very true, but we will never be able to decipher this dichotomy! The world famous McDonald chain uses lard in preparation of it's mouth watering French fries. Perhaps most unassuming Indian vegetarians have consumed them one time or another. I am not trying to prolong the painstaking argument, but at least in the US there are many other processed food items that have animal fat, one good example is cookie dough. When I came to the US, I used to look for such purity in my diet, but after reading labels my sacrosanctity had no place! I have accepted this as limitation of the ever changing culture and advant of technology. That's just my experience, I am sure others have their own perception.

Question is whether we are willing to live with the pretence of being a pseudo vegetarian or not? In absence of the only explanation (religious) it is difficult to give this thought too much validity.

Sujata

dine
November 22nd, 2002, 05:34 AM
Lets use this information in spreading the fact that egg(unfertilised) is never going to hatch a chicken and hence can be included in lacto- vegetarian's diet as well. It is good source of animal protein and it is good if people(especially in our community-where diet is getting poorer and poorer) include in their diet.
I decided to include egg in my diet otherwise I was avoiding on the basis that nature produced it to give life. But here it become clear that it has Half set of chromosomes means no life.

anurag
November 22nd, 2002, 05:39 AM
Hi Dinesh,

"especially in our community-where diet is getting poorer and poorer" - How is the diet getting poorer and why especially in our community.

I would appreciate if you can throw some light on these.

regards
Anurag

anurag
November 22nd, 2002, 05:42 AM
Anu jiji,

Ye sab itna technical ho gaya hai ki mere jaise engineer ko kuch palle nahin pad raha hai. Mannai to ek do baar repeat reading maari sai, fer bhee kuch ghana sa dimaag mein na badya.......ha ha ha...... jo jindagee bhar biology se door bhagte rahe unka to yahee haal hota hai aisee discussion mein....

but good discussion, apne sir ke upar se jaa rahee hai to kya :-)

Anurag


Anu Rana (Nov 21, 2002 12:55 p.m.):
We have very knowledgeable people discussing highly technical things here.
Is it safe to assume that the same knowlegeable people will be responsible enough to maintain the decorum on the site.
I am very hopeful.

anujkumar
November 22nd, 2002, 07:17 AM
Here is a sample views from a person in to EGG Vs Veggie movement

2/9/02

Am I contraadicting myself with the title of this letter?

This is going to be a long letter. Please read it patiently. I
hope it will be useful to you all of this group!

When I wrote about Eggs being vegetarian, I deliberately compared the
eggs with milk -- cow´s/goat´s and mother´s !!

Strictly speaking, if we define vegetarian food as that which is
derived from vegetation, that means, trees, plants, vegetables and
fruits etc., then MILK IS NON-VEGETARIAN, be it of cow, goat (or a
human being´s mother´s ) !!

By this definition (which is given be the so-called true vegetarians
or "Vegans" who do not use any milk or milk products like curd
(youghurt), butter, ghee, paneer, cheese, milk powder, etc., but
instead use non-dairy milk whitener in coffe, tea, etc.,) most of us
Indian vegetarians are NON-VEGETARIANS !!

As a matter of fact the so-called true vegetarians or vegans are also
NON-VEGETARIANS because the very first food as soon as they are born
they take is the mother´s milk or if the mother cannot give milk
either cow´s milk or bottled milk powder milk, which also by the
above definition is non-vegetarian, because it is not derived from
vegetation but is an animal product. (A human being´s mother is also
an animal - homo sapiens !)

So, by this definition of vegetarian food, NO HUMAN BEING IN THE
WORLD IS A VEGETARIAN ! !

But, nothing is there to be scardd about it or to be panicky.

THIS IS BECAUSE OUR INDIAN VEGETARIANISM STEMS BASICALLY FROM THE
FACT THAT WE DO NOT WANT TO HARM OR KILL ANY ANIMAL FOR OUR FOOD !

So, our definition of Vegetarianism is that we can eat all the things
which do not lead to killing or harming of animals.

With this definition, Indian vegetarian food also includes milk - be
it of mother´s , cow´s goat´s or any other mammal´s like camel,
donkey, etc. even though milk is an animal product. This is because
it is non-living or does not lead to life which may be harmed if we
consume it. Similarly, the UNFERTILISED EGG is also another
vegetarian food like milk even though it is also another animal
product, because it will also NOT LEAD TO A LIFE WHICH MAY BE HARMED
OR KILLED IF WE CONSUME THE FORMER.


So, unfertilised eggs are as much vegetarian as milk and milk
products are !! It is another NON-LIVING (OR NOT LEADING TO A
LIVING THING- the chick) animal product like the milk is.


As a matter of fact even if we are truly eating "real vegetarian"
food like the "vegans", with each and every morsel of the vegetarian
food that we put in the mouth, there is AUTOMATICALLY saliva also
mixed in this vegetarian food and this also we eat along with the
morsel of the vegetarian food that we eat (this saliva aids in
partial digestion of the food in the mouth). This saliva is not a
vegetarian product according to Vegans´definition of vegetarian food,
but is an animal product. Even Vegans cannot eat any food without
simultaneously consuming saliva. SO THEY ARE ALSO NOT TRUE
VEGETARIANS!!

As a matter of fact, we live in a sea of micro-organisms like
bacteria, viruses, fungi, algae, etc. which are all living beings !
The soil has micro organisms, the air has micro organisms, water has
microorganisms. So with every breath of air, we consume micro
organisms and when we drink water, we consume micro organisms ! WE
CANNOT HELP IT ! So, if somebody asks you why do you not worhsip
bacteria, but consume them, he is just being very technical, and
theoretical (and may I call stupid?) !!!

As a matter of fact, some time or the other during our life each one
of us has unknowingly or even deliberately killed living beings,
though not for food, but because they were harmful to us or were a
nuisence to us !!

For example, have we not killed mosquitoes, house flys, bed bugs,
ants, worms, cockroaches, rats, pests (while growing vegetarian foods
like vegetables, fruits, plants, etc.) with the pesticides ??

The Jains, especially the jain Sadhus and Sadhwis eat their food
during daytime to avoid inadvertently killing any small organisms
like ant, mosquitoes, flys, etc. which may fall in the food they eat
which they will not be able to see if it is dark or in the light of
the electric bulb or any other which is weaker than the sunlight.
Not only that, they cover their nose and mouth with a piece of cloth
all the time to prevent some small organims falling into their mouth
while speaking or inhaling some organims in the air while
breathing. But even they cannot prevent killing the bacteria and
other micro-organims in air, water, soil, etc. !!


SO WE INDIANS ARE VEGETARIANS AS FAR AS IS POSSIBLE and we do not
DELIBERATELY kill or cause to be killed any VISIBLE TO THE EYE living
being for FOOD and our vegetarianism is based on the principle
of "Ahimsa" or not killing living beings for food and not on anything
else !

SO PLEASE NOT BE TOO TECHNICAL ABOUT BEING VEGETARIANS LIKE THE
vegans but be "PRACTICAL VEGETARIANS" like what we really are !!

Please keep in mind that there are no TRUE or IDEAL VEGETARIANS in
the world.


Jaadyeja

PS: This technical stuff is very good for discussion (that is what we intend to do here). But my personal opinion is that almost every body, either eat egg or don't is not based on such deep research (if the person in consideration is an intelectual type, s/he might rather use such stuff to justify their habbits). Most people eat egg because It's in their family kitchen ever since or at some point of time they happen to try it and didn't found the taste unacceptable.

So if you eat egg, be happy for all the good it is doing to your health and if you don't, well, it is just that you don't like it eating (and be happy for you don't eat what you don't like!!).

Anuj
Note : keyword in above - my personal opinion
and most ppl (there are exeption to 'most')

biotechs2001
November 22nd, 2002, 02:51 PM
Dear Bua ji (Suajata),
1. Even if i consider that milk creat some problems healthwise rarely... Mr. Egg is anyway is not an Angel in this field.. baat pathogens ki chali hai to 90% of Eggs globaly
2. contaminated with Salmonella(Vector of Typhoid = Motijhara), hight lever of cholestrol, Mycobacterium avis( a strain of T.B) some types of Hepatites... and many more diseases.

3. Milk is a nourishing substance ....which is made to nourish young ones naturally.... on other hand eggs are reproductive products, nature not made them to feed someone.

4. If milk feeding is considered as canabolism than pregnancy is great canabolism the gowing faetus is not only taking nourishmesnt, but oxygen, blood, all hormones , enezyes etc. If we follow this logic then next progeny of veggi will never come in this world.




Sujata (Nov 21, 2002 12:45 p.m.):
Dear simple minded KK Bhatijay:

My comments above have established that, if milk products were not to be regarded as vegetarian, the act of suckling a baby would be akin to cannibalism. So in a way milk is pseudo vegetarian, but generally accepted concept.

However on the flip side of the coin, the same animal fat, e.g., mother's or cow's milk, or butter should be eliminated to prevent certain diseases (coronary artery disease) and ailments directly linked to the consumption of animal products. Virus in this case, a vector is transmissible via body secretions (milk)? A lactating mother has been known to pass on immunity as well as diseases to her infant.

Now Sujata is scratching her head too!

biotechs2001
November 22nd, 2002, 03:31 PM
1. Food habits can personal liking or disliking..... but start eating eggs only by the logic with the suspicion about the preparation enzyme in cheez...
nahi tai kaal nai Males will logic that all males should smoke coz womens are inhaling more smoke during cooking in rural haryana.
and molecules of Nicotine are not chemically much different from normal smoke.

2.Saare sarabi( Drunkard) bhee logic denge ki bhai alcohol tai body mai natutally banta hai her ek Cell mai(0.01%), tai fer daru peene mai kai burai hai??

3.If body not is doubtful about cheez , there r many other milk product options.

4. I dont think either Egg or cheez was ever staple food for Jats. Paneer kabhi-kabhi use hota hai, but its processing is based on Lemon.



Simple minded is in confusion ... people are discussing on this issue or just lobbying for poulty Industry??????????????....I am totally lost and giving up totally to read and write on this issue.

amitdahiya
November 22nd, 2002, 08:45 PM
Dear Krishan
pl get your facts right.! There is no way you are going to get a chicken from a commercial egg which comes from a layer bird that produces these eggs without ever having any contact with a male bird in its life time. Unless you believe in the Christian concept of Immaculate conception you would be hard pressed indeed to prove your point.

2nd it takes a single viable Cell with DNA to provide reproduction through the Genetic engineering route, that being true that single cell could be found in any soft moist tissue of the body including the milk gland.

It is important to be sure of our facts before posting anything for the benefit of our community on this site. Lets practice strict intellectual honesty here as far as possible. Religious belief should not be allowed to clutter or confuse scientific temperament which is the spirit in which this post needs to be discussed.

The truth is there is no more life in a teenda than there is in an anda.
Yours etc
Amit Dahiya


krishan kumar (Nov 19, 2002 04:49 a.m.):
Mr. Duhan,
We can discuss here Jat opinions or maximum Hindu, I really dont know thats the other religion says.
1.for clear ur concept... Egg is not a secretory product like milk.... Egg is a reproductive product and have potetial future life.. U can easily produce next genereation from unfertilised egg, although this animal will be not be fertile for next generation.
But I openly challenge if anybody in the World can produce artificially an animal excluding the Eggs Involvement, Vice-versa is common.
2. the Immunity things from milk u r talking about from milk are Antibodies( A Protein) not any cells, both are totally different things.

dine
November 23rd, 2002, 04:28 PM
Hi Anurag
Hamari dudh dahi ka khana ab kitna reh gya he Ye to aap ko pata he hoga.Aur sirf hamari community mein es liye kyonki jayda fulfruit or vegetable khane vale to hum kabhi rahe nahi.






Anurag Kadyan (Nov 21, 2002 07:09 p.m.):
Hi Dinesh,

"especially in our community-where diet is getting poorer and poorer" - How is the diet getting poorer and why especially in our community.

I would appreciate if you can throw some light on these.

regards
Anurag