GOD! Are you there? [Archive]

guliayaj100

October 19th, 2003, 12:38 AM

Dear friends,
The replies are very much on the expected lines.
1. There is nothing like that.
2. How does it matter if God is there or not
3. No logic
Shubha Chand ji on the right track.
Those who do not know exact definations and properties of God and do not find logic behind his existance, they start disbelieving Him
Those who think this supercomputer (their body ) and all gifts of nature have been given to them free of cost without any reason, they say --how does it matter if He is there or not.
Others who believe in God because of their forefathers they say He is there.That is all , do not ask further.
But God can be proved logically as well as scientifically. Some of the points are given below--
In this world we can not find any wise creation which has no creator. From an aeroplane to a small needle, a house ,a car, a TV, a pen everything has a creator. The matter is JAD (senseless, inert). It cannot take a wise shape on its own. Here the principle comes out--- No wise creation can take place unless it has a creator. Similar is the case of Human body, earth, trees etc. These are very wise and systematic creations. Human body is a supercomputer-- various parts very well adjusted. See different organs , their functions , blood purification and supply system, eyes and countless operations. Has it became such on its own? See the earth and metals inside it-- how the electrons, protons and neutrons adjusted--- a very perfect system. Does the matter which is called JAD (senseless) has the ability to acquire different forms itself.
The great scientist NEWTON tells through his law of motion-------No matter can change its state of rest or motion unless an external force is applied to it.
This is the logic which makes us to believe that there is a power which is behind the creation of this beautiful nature and this power is called God.
We shouid go in search for more logics for creating real belief in God oterwise we will keep on believing God only from outside not by heart.

And dear Anil you say----what does it matter....... . If some one gives you a house, a car and other gifts without appearing before you, won't you try to find him and thank him. If you don't it will be called Kritghanta (ingratitude).Same case is with the God who has given you a beautiful body, every type of instuments fitted on it, fruits to eat , a very beautiful nature to enjoy. So if you trust in God you should try to find about him and thank him.
Dear Jitender, your argument---had there been any entity like God, there wouldn't have been evils anywhere--- is a very good doubt and this doubt is the biggest factor which makes many people doubt the existance of God. For getting the perfect answer you will have to study ATMA, PARMATMA & PRAKRITI , the purpose of God behind making this srishti. However I quote a small example---
Jeev karm karne me swatantra hai. Karm ke aadhar par phal milega. This world is just like an examination hall. Students are free to write anything. If a student writes something wrong the teacher will not tell him the correct answer. If he does so it will be injustice to other students. All the students will get marks as per their answers. Similarly God does not interfere but gives reward or punishment as per our deeds.

scsheorayan

October 19th, 2003, 06:28 AM

Dear All,

This is one of the most favourite subject of all times. Each one has his/her own hypothesis and logic behind it.

My hypothesis says the nature which has created every thing we see also has a creator who is beyond all limitations which we call God.

The reason why this subject causes so much controversy is that people tend to analyse the presence of God using their scientific knowledge which in itself has it's own limitations. If the science was perfect and understood perfectly no new theories should be coming out now and then. So science itself is evolving so is our capacity to analyse things. Using these tools one can hope to gain limited insight.

However to take another route one must start with faith and then analyse it and see where do you reach. The word is introspection. Sit in a quite place and concentrate on God and sooner or later you will feel it if the efforts are sincere and faith is complete. The process can take a long time and analytical process invariably raises few questions which must be answered before any progress can be made.
God is inside and those who are looking for it outside are knocking at wrong doors.

uday

October 19th, 2003, 12:29 PM

1> Time is the Best HEALER.
2> EXPERIENCE is best TEACHER.
3> Nature is the best GUIDE. ( Nature-->VERY STRONG & IMPRESSIVE).

Human body is also part of Nature which is driven by certain forces ( GOD \ CREATOR ). This force acts sort of Centripetal forces( Fc=mv(2) / r) to all living one. Every cell of human body is in equilibrium to this force.

These force \ creator exists and can be felt by certain methods as already described by SubhaChandji.

bnashier

October 19th, 2003, 05:34 PM

Shubha Chand Ji:

Indeed, this is enlightening message.

Shubha Chand Sheorayan (Oct 18, 2003 08:58 p.m.):
Dear All,

God is inside and those who are looking for it outside are knocking at wrong doors.

dahbal

October 20th, 2003, 09:17 AM

Sir,

Is there any jat who saw God in actual by their own healing and spiritual way?

Actually I haven't tried any healing or spiritual way.

-Balraj Dahiya

Budh Nashier (Oct 19, 2003 08:04 a.m.):
Shubha Chand Ji:

Indeed, this is enlightening message.

Shubha Chand Sheorayan (Oct 18, 2003 08:58 p.m.):
Dear All,

God is inside and those who are looking for it outside are knocking at wrong doors.

ishwarlamba

October 20th, 2003, 09:42 AM

Dear Balraj Ji,
Swami Satya Pathi has realised god.
He has a centre in Gujrat, more you can find about him from Dayanand Math Rohtak or a gurukul swami ji started in Sunderpur near canal on Jind Road Rohtak.
Swami ji has practiced truth for last 40 years.
Regards
Ishwar Lamba

bnashier

October 20th, 2003, 01:38 PM

Dear Balraj:

What is God and where is He? It all depends on what you wish to believe in. Jagmohan Ji, Shubha Chand Ji & Yajvir Ji have presented some very fine points and they all are rather powerful points. Live a life following the most fundamental principles:
Don't tell lies, Don't hurt others, Be honest, Be kind, Help others, Do your duty sincerely, Take a few moments before you go to sleep and think about things you did during the day which you probably should not have done, Remain honest to your own conscience as you can’t hide the facts from self.
Once you live a life following these basic but very hard principles, then your life is SIMPLE and PEACEFUL. You have realized GOD. HE is inside you. You are peaceful, healthy, mentally sound, a pleasant person to be around, you see brightness in everything you do, you radiate wisdom wherever you go, others find you more powerful than they are. Healing and spiritualities are now inside you. You have realized the Creator.
Do you know of any person who is living a life strictly following these principles - no failures allowed? Answer this question to yourself truthfully.
God is not locked in any building or closet. Once we fail in the basic principles cited above, we are restless and peace isn’t there and then we look for places to buy that peace. But the peace has to come from within.

Balraj Dahiya (Oct 19, 2003 11:47 p.m.):
Sir,

Is there any jat who saw God in actual by their own healing and spiritual way?

Actually I haven't tried any healing or spiritual way.

-Balraj Dahiya

Budh Nashier (Oct 19, 2003 08:04 a.m.):
Shubha Chand Ji:

Indeed, this is enlightening message.

Shubha Chand Sheorayan (Oct 18, 2003 08:58 p.m.):
Dear All,

God is inside and those who are looking for it outside are knocking at wrong doors.

scsheorayan

October 20th, 2003, 04:59 PM

Dear all,

The discussion gets refreshingly interesting.
When you are really happy do you go on telling others that you are happy ? Probably not because you are too busy relishing those moments of tranquility.

Similarly those who have experienced God are not likely to tell others about it. Probably they are too engrossed in God to care much about mundane worldly matters. However it should be possible to identify such people from the life they lead like Swami Satpati ji as mentioned by Ishwar Lamba ji. There may be many more in a big country like India but one has to watch out for fakes as well. The search starts from yourself and overcome all hindrances to self actualisation towards attainment to highest level of self purification. Once that is achieved Nirvana (Atma to Parmatma) should be natural progression. Unfortunately there is no handy guide but scriptures are best source of research and if you are fortunate enough to get a good teacher the path could be traversed more quickly than you would without a teacher. As per Geeta there are 4 types of people who seek God,1. those in trouble, 2.those who are curious, 3.those who want some thing from God, 4. those who love God. Depending on which category do we fit the results are dependent on our sincerety and amount of efforts.

dahbal

October 21st, 2003, 06:02 PM

Thanks you Uncle Ishwar Singh for valuable and spiritual informations.

Regards,
Balraj Dahiya

Ishwar Singh Lamba (Oct 20, 2003 12:12 a.m.):
Dear Balraj Ji,
Swami Satya Pathi has realised god.
He has a centre in Gujrat, more you can find about him from Dayanand Math Rohtak or a gurukul swami ji started in Sunderpur near canal on Jind Road Rohtak.
Swami ji has practiced truth for last 40 years.
Regards
Ishwar Lamba

dahbal

October 21st, 2003, 06:09 PM

Sir,

Thanks for really nice and touching information regarding God which only few person can provide and know in real life.

I have heard that when the person is in extreme
healing & spiritual position.I means to say near the God then he can transfer the soul from one body to another body.
Is it possible ?

Regards,
Balraj Dahiya

quote]Budh Nashier (Oct 20, 2003 04:08 a.m.):
Dear Balraj:

What is God and where is He? It all depends on what you wish to believe in. Jagmohan Ji, Shubha Chand Ji & Yajvir Ji have presented some very fine points and they all are rather powerful points. Live a life following the most fundamental principles:
Don't tell lies, Don't hurt others, Be honest, Be kind, Help others, Do your duty sincerely, Take a few moments before you go to sleep and think about things you did during the day which you probably should not have done, Remain honest to your own conscience as you can’t hide the facts from self.
Once you live a life following these basic but very hard principles, then your life is SIMPLE and PEACEFUL. You have realized GOD. HE is inside you. You are peaceful, healthy, mentally sound, a pleasant person to be around, you see brightness in everything you do, you radiate wisdom wherever you go, others find you more powerful than they are. Healing and spiritualities are now inside you. You have realized the Creator.
Do you know of any person who is living a life strictly following these principles - no failures allowed? Answer this question to yourself truthfully.
God is not locked in any building or closet. Once we fail in the basic principles cited above, we are restless and peace isn’t there and then we look for places to buy that peace. But the peace has to come from within.

Balraj Dahiya (Oct 19, 2003 11:47 p.m.):
Sir,

Is there any jat who saw God in actual by their own healing and spiritual way?

Actually I haven't tried any healing or spiritual way.

-Balraj Dahiya

Budh Nashier (Oct 19, 2003 08:04 a.m.):
Shubha Chand Ji:

Indeed, this is enlightening message.

Shubha Chand Sheorayan (Oct 18, 2003 08:58 p.m.):
Dear All,

God is inside and those who are looking for it outside are knocking at wrong doors.[/quote]

guliayaj100

October 21st, 2003, 11:15 PM

dear balraj ji,
Yog Darshan (Vibhuti Pad and Kaivalya Pad) deals with the achivements of a yogi. As per Arya Samaj scholars it is not possible for a person even for a yogi to transfer a soul from one body to another.

ranjitjat

October 22nd, 2003, 08:12 PM

Dear Yajvir

As Subha chand ji rightly said God is with in the body.
This is great mistry of God- Those who can realise with in can find in ATMA- 10th Door
The eye centre- DASMA DAWAR- SHIV NETAR & SAHASARDAL KAMAL.
ATMA- SOUL HAS TO GO THROUGH UNLIMTED BRITHS AND YOGA SHADHNA TO FIND GOD.
ONLY TRUE YOGI - GURU CAN SHOW THE WAY.
YAH JANAM 2 KI YOG SADHANA KA -KAM HAI.

KAVI NY KAHA
NIRAKAR- SAKAR JAGAT MAE SARY KE PARKASH TERA.

NIRAKAR -SAKAR JAGAT SANSAR RACHANIYA TU HAI
BHAGATO KY BEDAY KO ISHWAR PAR KARNIYA TU HAi.
14 RATTAN SAMUDAR MATH KAR KADHAN ALA TU HAI
DHANA BHAGAT NY KANKAR BOE- JAWAR KARNIYA TU HAI.
DHARMPAL KA RAM NAM KA JAHAJ PAR KARNIYA TU HAI
OM BHUR BHAV SHAV GAYTARI- SAT-CHIT- ANAND TU HAI.

GHAT GHAT KY MAE RAM BASATA HAI
GHAT KY PARDY KHOL LY BHAI.
LAKHO- KARODO JANAMOO KY
VAD YAH ANMOL MANAS DEH PAI !!!!!!!!!!!

TAN GHAT MAE MILANGY BHAGWAN
BHATAKTI SURTA KUE DOLLAN !!!!!!!!!!!!

SURAT= ATMA

dchhill

October 22nd, 2003, 11:25 PM

I am just writing a simple story (A true one)
Einstein had a friend who was atheist.One day he came to einstien's house and there was a beautiful model of solar system on the top af the table.His friend asked him who made this.
Einstien replied do you think that this was made by itself.His friend replied no.On this einstien said " Our solar system is much more beautiful than this model and there must be some power who created it, that power is god".
His friend had to believe in that power after this incident.

You have all the knowledge about everything inside you.Observe yourself and you will get knowledge from doing that.It is not an easy task.It takes time.If you want some more explanation read Gita.I am sure you will have answers to your question in Gita.

jitendersingh

October 23rd, 2003, 12:18 AM

Dear Yajbir,

The if God does so, He is the worst entity. To prove Himself He plays with so many creatures existing in the nature.

"Punishing is not a natural solution to evils,
the natural solution is to correct the error."

Hope you get me.

My idea is:
"The only superpower is nature. Do abide by the natural laws. The is the way to live."

Yajvir Gulia (Oct 18, 2003 03:08 p.m.):
Dear friends,
The replies are very much on the expected lines.
1. There is nothing like that.
2. How does it matter if God is there or not
3. No logic
Shubha Chand ji on the right track.
Those who do not know exact definations and properties of God and do not find logic behind his existance, they start disbelieving Him
Those who think this supercomputer (their body ) and all gifts of nature have been given to them free of cost without any reason, they say --how does it matter if He is there or not.
Others who believe in God because of their forefathers they say He is there.That is all , do not ask further.
But God can be proved logically as well as scientifically. Some of the points are given below--
In this world we can not find any wise creation which has no creator. From an aeroplane to a small needle, a house ,a car, a TV, a pen everything has a creator. The matter is JAD (senseless, inert). It cannot take a wise shape on its own. Here the principle comes out--- No wise creation can take place unless it has a creator. Similar is the case of Human body, earth, trees etc. These are very wise and systematic creations. Human body is a supercomputer-- various parts very well adjusted. See different organs , their functions , blood purification and supply system, eyes and countless operations. Has it became such on its own? See the earth and metals inside it-- how the electrons, protons and neutrons adjusted--- a very perfect system. Does the matter which is called JAD (senseless) has the ability to acquire different forms itself.
The great scientist NEWTON tells through his law of motion-------No matter can change its state of rest or motion unless an external force is applied to it.
This is the logic which makes us to believe that there is a power which is behind the creation of this beautiful nature and this power is called God.
We shouid go in search for more logics for creating real belief in God oterwise we will keep on believing God only from outside not by heart.

And dear Anil you say----what does it matter....... . If some one gives you a house, a car and other gifts without appearing before you, won't you try to find him and thank him. If you don't it will be called Kritghanta (ingratitude).Same case is with the God who has given you a beautiful body, every type of instuments fitted on it, fruits to eat , a very beautiful nature to enjoy. So if you trust in God you should try to find about him and thank him.
Dear Jitender, your argument---had there been any entity like God, there wouldn't have been evils anywhere--- is a very good doubt and this doubt is the biggest factor which makes many people doubt the existance of God. For getting the perfect answer you will have to study ATMA, PARMATMA & PRAKRITI , the purpose of God behind making this srishti. However I quote a small example---
Jeev karm karne me swatantra hai. Karm ke aadhar par phal milega. This world is just like an examination hall. Students are free to write anything. If a student writes something wrong the teacher will not tell him the correct answer. If he does so it will be injustice to other students. All the students will get marks as per their answers. Similarly God does not interfere but gives reward or punishment as per our deeds.

scsheorayan

October 23rd, 2003, 06:02 PM

Dear Jitu,

It is with our limited analytical knowledge we talk about God punishing or rewarding. For him adjectives do not apply nor do the laws of nature as they do to us ordinary human beings. Because Nature is created by him not vice versa. Probably Divya's idea is very practical and some scripture knowledge goes a long way in helping us under stand what is God .

jitendersingh

October 23rd, 2003, 10:06 PM

Sorry Sheorayan Ji,

Why He is given that special status even above the Nature, that hurts me.

God is only a belief to cover and justify the things we can't reason. That's it. But really when we reason we will find that everything in the world can be reasoned through natural laws.

What Miss Divya refers to is what Einstien said. Had he really said so? I don't think so. Such things keep on creeping up as long as things goes. I state an example- Some close aide of Late Princess Diana of UK has said that she predicted her death. Now I say about someone known to me that he predicted 11 Sept attacks on US. It is sheer rubbish to state such things. Unless and until you witness and reason them.

What I believe is that
we should NOT fear the entity God- we should fear from ourself, so that we don't do the wrongs.
again we should not leave anything to Him- we should do it ourself, because He doesn't exist.

Shubha Chand Sheorayan (Oct 23, 2003 08:32 a.m.):
Dear Jitu,

It is with our limited analytical knowledge we talk about God punishing or rewarding. For him adjectives do not apply nor do the laws of nature as they do to us ordinary human beings. Because Nature is created by him not vice versa. Probably Divya's idea is very practical and some scripture knowledge goes a long way in helping us under stand what is God .

ranjitjat

October 23rd, 2003, 11:03 PM

DAER ALL
GOD KA FASALA .
VAD MAE KARIYO.
PAHALY- DIVYA KA PHASALA KARLO ?
1 aak to kahata hai- CHILLAR BHAI ?
2- DUSARA MISS DIVYA ?
GOD ARE YOU THERE ?
AAK VAR- AAKAR JATOO KA FASALA TO KARJA.
NAHI BHAI THARA FASALA TO BHAGWAN BHI KARAN SY NAT LIYA.?????????
HAPPY DEWALI

scsheorayan

October 24th, 2003, 06:23 PM

Dear Jitu,

Thanks for the opinion. But I still maintain that by definition nature has it's own limitations. It has beginning and end. Where as God has no such limitations. If we can not see some thing does not mean it does not exist. You may think that God is just an imaginary name given to some unexplainable phenomenon.However that argument does not hold true for every one. Just to give an example say in the dark you see a rope lying some where and mistake it for a snake and be scared. Later on you bring the light and see that there was no snake just a rope. By now you are absolutely certain that the snake was not real it was only an imagination or your belief at the time. Hwoever the fear you felt at the time was very real. Similarly if you have faith in the presence of God the inner strength you get from that faith is very real. Do you believe in Deewali the festival of lights and the spirit behind it. There is more to Deewali than just lighting the lamps. It is the inner lamp which must be lit up to really light up your life.

Happy Deewali to all.

jitendersingh

October 27th, 2003, 12:20 PM

Sheorayan Ji,

Thanks for your wishes.

I really do believe in NOT trying to affect the beliefs and the faiths of others. And again I appreciate your spirit in the discussion.

Now, back to the discussion, can nature be finished off? I am really surprised by your quote that nature has beginning and end. Do you beleive that God will exists after the so called end of nature? When you say that God is a faith I agree. When this faith is used as a good spirit I have no problem. For me the problem arises when they misuse this faith.

People spend a lot for the name of God? Here I argue.

Again when a man called "Guru" gives "Raam Naam". Here I argue. Do your God (may I use faith? pls tell) need human contractors to be had?

Again, does God says hate anybody to love that faith? Here again I argue. If anybody has different way of doing goods, he should be free enough.

Now I come to Diwali, I do not fire crackers on this festival. I take this festival as a "festival of light". May be that most of the people celebrate it for the arrival of Rama, but I do this because a lot of communities all across my country do celebrate this festival.

And then finally I would always like to quote for this festival "It is the inner lamp which must be lit up to really light up your life". And I'll try that each and every day of my life be such a Diwali- enlighning my inner self which can give me the satisfaction of living the life and not simply passing the life.

Shubha Chand Sheorayan (Oct 24, 2003 08:53 a.m.):
Dear Jitu,

Thanks for the opinion. But I still maintain that by definition nature has it's own limitations. It has beginning and end. Where as God has no such limitations. If we can not see some thing does not mean it does not exist. You may think that God is just an imaginary name given to some unexplainable phenomenon.However that argument does not hold true for every one. Just to give an example say in the dark you see a rope lying some where and mistake it for a snake and be scared. Later on you bring the light and see that there was no snake just a rope. By now you are absolutely certain that the snake was not real it was only an imagination or your belief at the time. Hwoever the fear you felt at the time was very real. Similarly if you have faith in the presence of God the inner strength you get from that faith is very real. Do you believe in Deewali the festival of lights and the spirit behind it. There is more to Deewali than just lighting the lamps. It is the inner lamp which must be lit up to really light up your life.

Happy Deewali to all.

scsheorayan

October 27th, 2003, 03:30 PM

Dear Jitu,

Glad to learn that you have your fundamentals clear. Yes the God does not need any agents. You don't have to search for him any where just within yourself. Once you can find your real self journey to God is the next progression. As far as nature is concerned, even though scientists have different theories about it's origin but what you can judge for yourself in nature. Some times it is day some times it is night, some times it is hot and some times it is cold, some times it is green some times dry. Some things make us laugh some make us cry. What would you call this ? It is Maya including you and me are it's products and thus have beginning and end. God on the other hand is ever constant and provides anchoring point to evolving nature. Hope I have not caused you any confusion. Good luck.

dahbal

October 27th, 2003, 04:18 PM

Hi Everybody,

We all know that God is one and available everywhere.Why we are worshipping other god and goddess?We should worship one God like christian people do?

Everybody in our Hindu dharma have made a seprate god.

It is really a confusing matter.I think we should have one God and worship him/her.

-Balraj Dahiya

scsheorayan

October 28th, 2003, 03:37 PM

Dear Balraj,

In fact we all worship the one and only God in it's various forms. All religions teach good things only but people do tend to misuse it and high light the differences rather than similarities.

It is better to worship in any form than not to worship it at all. Atleast the individual acknowledges the presence of some power higher than himself. That gives a broader out look on life and aids in tranquility of mind and hence peace. Hinduism has over centuries has accumulated various Gods and Godesses each one of his/her own portfolio. For Jats Hanuman ji and Shivaji are favourites because they both represent strength and are easy to please.

ashokpaul

October 28th, 2003, 07:51 PM

jitender singh ji,
i think u did not read the article attentively.
i suggest u to go 4 the same. its a serious topic, in which each and every word matters.
its because of our lack of attention we are missing a lot.
Yajbir wrote that God give us rewrds or punishments AS PER OUR DEEDS.
these are the last 4 words which matters most.

Let God does not do so.
He came out to be (unayaykari) doing unfair with others.

to understand it have examples of students in examination hall as made by Yajvir

if the examiner give more marks to the dull student. he is doing a favour to that person.
AND THAT IS WRONG BY EACH AND EVERY LAW
THAT BASED ON TRUTH.

for further information come to contact with ARYA SAMAJ

Its basic Rules are Philosophy in itself.
have CHINTAN(Brain-Storming) on these points.
this is the only way to correct the ERROR.
have a happy and prosperous life with TRUTH!

Jitender Singh (Oct 22, 2003 02:48 p.m.):
Dear Yajbir,

The if God does so, He is the worst entity. To prove Himself He plays with so many creatures existing in the nature.

"Punishing is not a natural solution to evils,
the natural solution is to correct the error."

Hope you get me.

My idea is:
"The only superpower is nature. Do abide by the natural laws. The is the way to live."

Yajvir Gulia (Oct 18, 2003 03:08 p.m.):
Dear friends,
The replies are very much on the expected lines.
1. There is nothing like that.
2. How does it matter if God is there or not
3. No logic
Shubha Chand ji on the right track.
Those who do not know exact definations and properties of God and do not find logic behind his existance, they start disbelieving Him
Those who think this supercomputer (their body ) and all gifts of nature have been given to them free of cost without any reason, they say --how does it matter if He is there or not.
Others who believe in God because of their forefathers they say He is there.That is all , do not ask further.
But God can be proved logically as well as scientifically. Some of the points are given below--
In this world we can not find any wise creation which has no creator. From an aeroplane to a small needle, a house ,a car, a TV, a pen everything has a creator. The matter is JAD (senseless, inert). It cannot take a wise shape on its own. Here the principle comes out--- No wise creation can take place unless it has a creator. Similar is the case of Human body, earth, trees etc. These are very wise and systematic creations. Human body is a supercomputer-- various parts very well adjusted. See different organs , their functions , blood purification and supply system, eyes and countless operations. Has it became such on its own? See the earth and metals inside it-- how the electrons, protons and neutrons adjusted--- a very perfect system. Does the matter which is called JAD (senseless) has the ability to acquire different forms itself.
The great scientist NEWTON tells through his law of motion-------No matter can change its state of rest or motion unless an external force is applied to it.
This is the logic which makes us to believe that there is a power which is behind the creation of this beautiful nature and this power is called God.
We shouid go in search for more logics for creating real belief in God oterwise we will keep on believing God only from outside not by heart.

And dear Anil you say----what does it matter....... . If some one gives you a house, a car and other gifts without appearing before you, won't you try to find him and thank him. If you don't it will be called Kritghanta (ingratitude).Same case is with the God who has given you a beautiful body, every type of instuments fitted on it, fruits to eat , a very beautiful nature to enjoy. So if you trust in God you should try to find about him and thank him.
Dear Jitender, your argument---had there been any entity like God, there wouldn't have been evils anywhere--- is a very good doubt and this doubt is the biggest factor which makes many people doubt the existance of God. For getting the perfect answer you will have to study ATMA, PARMATMA & PRAKRITI , the purpose of God behind making this srishti. However I quote a small example---
Jeev karm karne me swatantra hai. Karm ke aadhar par phal milega. This world is just like an examination hall. Students are free to write anything. If a student writes something wrong the teacher will not tell him the correct answer. If he does so it will be injustice to other students. All the students will get marks as per their answers. Similarly God does not interfere but gives reward or punishment as per our deeds.

jitendersingh

October 29th, 2003, 12:29 PM

Dear Ashok Paul Ji,

I am really discussing the topic with good spirit and I have read each and every statement, except for Dudee Uncle's (I am sorry, but I didn't read them because I always find it difficult to concentrate to read in on ALLCAPS text.)

Anyway now proceeding to the discussion, What I was pointing to was that when we say that it is the God who controls the whole world, there came a statement that "God punishes for wrong deeds". Aren't these two statements contradictory. I He is so much of powerful fellow why not He stop those deeds, rather than allowing to do wrongs and then punishing. And if he only does this so called "Nyaya", I think all the people who don't do wrong are God. Why look for an imaginary entity, find it in the society.

Further, when it comes to visiting Arya Samaj, I am sorry that my ideology doesn't suit these places. What I believe in is to do live as a part of society where you can be satisfied that you lived a life and not Passed a life.

You turn please!

jitendersingh

October 29th, 2003, 12:40 PM

Surely Sheorayan Ji,

I am not confused but these points make my belief a bit stronger in my theory.

My opinion says that this what nature is after day it has to be night, things are hot as well as cold, it may be greener in rainy days and dryer days cause the loss of it, instances are to please you, as well as displease you. You call it Maya, and I call it Natural phenomena.

When I used to study the uncertanity factor, my beliefused to be a bit shaky, but from the days I studies the Uncertainity Theory, I got it right that even uncertainity is a very much natural phenomena, and we can scientifically model it as well as predict it. Sorry that this is a bit technical language and probably if you wanna get to it I may give you some references regarding it next time.

Shubha Chand Sheorayan (Oct 27, 2003 05:00 a.m.):
Dear Jitu,

Glad to learn that you have your fundamentals clear. Yes the God does not need any agents. You don't have to search for him any where just within yourself. Once you can find your real self journey to God is the next progression. As far as nature is concerned, even though scientists have different theories about it's origin but what you can judge for yourself in nature. Some times it is day some times it is night, some times it is hot and some times it is cold, some times it is green some times dry. Some things make us laugh some make us cry. What would you call this ? It is Maya including you and me are it's products and thus have beginning and end. God on the other hand is ever constant and provides anchoring point to evolving nature. Hope I have not caused you any confusion. Good luck.

dahbal

October 29th, 2003, 03:49 PM

Dear Uncle Shubha Chand Sheorayan ji,

Thanks for nice religious information.

What are the ways of pleasing Hanuman ji and Shivaji ?I hope that you have knowledge of that
ways.Why we jat worship these two God Hanuman ji and Shivaji and why not other community?I think it varies from state to state also.South Indian people worship other God/Goddess and North Indian worship other God/Goddess.

I was born on Tuesday (which people called Hanuman ji's day) and I also tried to go Hanuman ji temple on Tuesday.But I don't know the ways of pleasing Hanumanji and Shivaji.

Regards,
Balraj Dahiya

Shubha Chand Sheorayan (Oct 28, 2003 05:07 a.m.):
Dear Balraj,

In fact we all worship the one and only God in it's various forms. All religions teach good things only but people do tend to misuse it and high light the differences rather than similarities.

It is better to worship in any form than not to worship it at all. Atleast the individual acknowledges the presence of some power higher than himself. That gives a broader out look on life and aids in tranquility of mind and hence peace. Hinduism has over centuries has accumulated various Gods and Godesses each one of his/her own portfolio. For Jats Hanuman ji and Shivaji are favourites because they both represent strength and are easy to please.

scsheorayan

October 29th, 2003, 03:49 PM

Dear Jitu,

thanks for your frank opinion.God is not some result which can be deduced from a formula or proved by some hypothesis. Science has not developed far enough to disapprove God. In fact lot of scientists do believe in God. If science was perfect then there should be no need to discover new hypothesis. The fact that science is nothing more than systematic study of Nature. Nature also has it's beginning and goes through changes and subject to it's own limitations. But God is not dependent on nature or any of it's products. One can not understand God or realise it by theorising or using mathematical models. It can only be realised by Atma which is non destructible and has similar qualities as God. Atleast that is what I believe in. That is the reason why some people place so much importance on spirituality. They believe by refering to Atma they will be making right decision under any situation. Because Atma is non destructible and takes bosy forms from one birth to next ultimate aim being Moksha or release from the World of dualities. which includes Nature, day night,birth, death,heat,cold etc. In order to live according to guidance of Atma one has to control all other distractions produced by Maya.
Perhaps you do not believe all this but keep an open mind. One day it may make sense .

ashokpaul

October 29th, 2003, 04:39 PM

hallo jitender ji,
If u are really interested in topic, then U have not to discard the suggestion just based on your believes. these may be wrong. as these based on ur experience. And experience of each and individual is different.

To further clarify the concept"we have to go in the deep, taking the TRINITY theory simutaneously." In this we consider ATMA, PARMATMA, and PRAKRITI(nature) as basic elements.
Out of these three
U are accepting only PRAKRITI
According to ur viewpoint each and everything is natural phenomenon.
But if ATMA i.e. YOU or ME don't take actions, we can't get reaction.
Let you(ATMA) feel hungry, its only on u whether to eat or not(its not nature there)

you may come to cross-question here that Hunger is natural phenomenon?
i'm accepting that.
But to eat or not to eat is the decision taken by ATMA(the soul).
you can't deny it.

Further to clarify PARMATMA, i'm taking the same assumption

WHY you(Atma) going to eat?
To avoid suffering caused by hunger.

To get satisfaction(Anand) we take different steps. May be right or wrong depends on our knowledge. we have to accept rewards/punishment for right/wrong deeds with please. as we have to take the responsibility for our deeds.

Now U said that if parmatma is the controller of the nature and Atma, then HE must end evils rather than to punish wrong doers.

Again it's unjustice dear
We(Atmas) can eradicate evils by enhancing knowledge(GYAN) then why look forward to PARMATMA to do injustice when it's not HIS property.

come forward with an open mind and accept the things(with conscious mind)

At least come to JUDGE.
accept my proposal and read(with thinking) "THE LIGHT OF TRUTH" by Swami Dayanand Sarswati.

you can get it from nearest Arya Samaj (both in hindi and English).

Take a step forward and You will feel the difference.
hoping for the best, Ashok(Atma)

jitendersingh

October 29th, 2003, 10:46 PM

Dear Ashok Ji,

Again that is where I disagree with the attitude of the people who have faith in God. They simply can't see a person not believing Him. Just try to force him to believe Him.

That was why I had just written that places and organization like Arya Samaj are not for me atleast.

What I want to point is that the heading of the topic is "GOD! Are you there?" First do correct it. It should be "God! Are You there?" Coming to the topic, it is okay to put your arguments in the favour of the topic. But when it is the debate be ready to hear from the other side too.

It is not the first time I have been talking to people who have such faith in the God. But what I really find is that atleast I have not been able to convince myself for that faith. It can be that I may act like that I have faith in God, but infact I don't. Would you like it?

Finally the argument is between your God and my Nature. And I am always convinced by the Nature holding the supreme place instead of God. How can I have faith in things like Atma and Parmatma. For me these things are just like toffee and chocolate for kids to convince them.

jitendersingh

October 29th, 2003, 10:54 PM

Dear Sheorayan Ji,

I have got a problem that I don't believe in things unless I can justify myself for believing in it. I always have an open mind, hope any person having faith in God may convince me.

I am not trying to negate or justify God scientifically, but I am saying that we are being able to justify the natural phenomenon scientifically.

I really don't know what atma (soul) is
in your dictionary. In my dictionary it stands out the willingness to follow that moral laws and nothing else.

I don't believe in life after death. So, this atma dies with its being and every newborn is blessed with the atma that follows the moral laws that are taught to him by his surroundings.

Shubha Chand Sheorayan (Oct 29, 2003 05:19 a.m.):
Dear Jitu,

thanks for your frank opinion.God is not some result which can be deduced from a formula or proved by some hypothesis. Science has not developed far enough to disapprove God. In fact lot of scientists do believe in God. If science was perfect then there should be no need to discover new hypothesis. The fact that science is nothing more than systematic study of Nature. Nature also has it's beginning and goes through changes and subject to it's own limitations. But God is not dependent on nature or any of it's products. One can not understand God or realise it by theorising or using mathematical models. It can only be realised by Atma which is non destructible and has similar qualities as God. Atleast that is what I believe in. That is the reason why some people place so much importance on spirituality. They believe by refering to Atma they will be making right decision under any situation. Because Atma is non destructible and takes bosy forms from one birth to next ultimate aim being Moksha or release from the World of dualities. which includes Nature, day night,birth, death,heat,cold etc. In order to live according to guidance of Atma one has to control all other distractions produced by Maya.
Perhaps you do not believe all this but keep an open mind. One day it may make sense .

rameshlakra

October 30th, 2003, 12:28 AM

could not help replying to such a beautiful and valuable suggestion by shubh chand ji , budh ji and dudee ji .
asking someone that ...has thau seen god ,is like asking having seen electricity . its all in theory and one has to get a shock in order to know that there is a current in the wire ,similarly i think one has to feel and realise the god (if it is existing ) and no one can tell u what colour of cloth the god wears. if someone does tell , he is simply telling u about his reaction to the current and not actual behaviour of the current (provided he is ready to get a shock ) . in the same way the shock of the force (god ) is to be realised in order to know that the force exist and to describe it is a mear interpretation /reaction of the body / nature of the body .
i remember reading a beautiful article in which the author brings the attention to our way of thinking . he says whatever our idea and thinking today is , is all based on our past experience and has nothing to do with future . similarly stephen hawking in history of time says that we have two cones ,a cone of past experince on a surface of a mirror with the pointed side touching the mirror . now where the cone touches the mirror is where u are at present: the real cone is ur past and the mirror image is the future . now ur future cone tends to be based on ur past but there is a catch i.e ur the future cone keeps changing shape depending on ur present position being a straight line (centre of the future cone } or on edge of the furture cone .hence one can theroritically go anywhere on the surface of mirror only thing one has to leave the tendency the be guided on the imaginary line formed by the past cones containing experinces .
why the above said is useful here is that one has to think and realise all that one does not believe in by leaving his past cone of experiences.
to sum it all even i am not sure whether such a force is there or not as i havent felt the shock myself but a the same i cant deny it based on my past cone .
partially one gets to know the power of force by meditation and forcing the sensation inwards and the cutting the sense itself .

bnashier

October 30th, 2003, 03:06 AM

It is very clear by now where most of us stand regarding our beliefs about God. No one really can make you believe or disbelieve, it is indeed your personal experience (or shock as Ramesh Lakra puts it) that may influence your thinking. It is a fact that not every thing can be explained by science or human logic. Take an example - somebody is getting ready to board a bus and then a friend just shows up and lures the person to his house. Later the same bus plunges into a river and all the passengers are gone. What is the explanation for that person's survival? Why did his friend just happen to be there to take him away from the bus? Who sent him? By the way, similar incidents do happen. Such things can make you believe in some Power.

We can believe in anything we want - so long as we don't ridicule those who don't think the way we do. Belief is a very personal matter.

scsheorayan

October 30th, 2003, 05:33 PM

Dear All,

We can discuss on this subject for rest of our lives and yet not come to a conclusion. May be we should ask ourselves why are we so much interested in God which no one among us claims to have seen? There is a strong argument for it, which is our desire to know the truth. Why do we want to know the truth ? Because all of us are part of the same. In objective World we see different bodies and individuals i.e. we are concentracting on differences which are purely objective. Where as in subjective sense we all have similarities or are manufactured through same process using similar ingredients and have lot of other similarities. The core one is Atma, We all possess it and that is similar to Parmatma or God. When person experiences God his/her differences with others do not matter any more. It is only similarity with other human being and other creatures matter. Some of us may say again that is all natural or just a mental state of mind. When all conflicts cease to exist and peace is complete may be then and only then are we ready to experience the presence of God. In the mean time we can keep running after the products of nature life after life and perhaps learn from our experience that every thing in nature is transient and we worried over it in vain. Had we spent so much of our efforts in search of God probably we could have made some progress.
Perhaps the root cause of our doubts lies in our perception of God. How do you describe it. Because all our definitions are from objective World. Even to say that God is only one is objective because the concept of numbers,time etc are man made. But if we can some how transdent the objectivity and reach
pure subjectivity we may be closer to God.
So if we want to reach some where just collecting maps will not be sufficient but we also have to start the journey by what ever mode of transportation we choose. Most of spend better parts of our lives collecting maps, visiting temples or wherever but only a few lucky ones make a start of journey in earnest and some of them must reach ultimately. So are we all here collecting maps or are we travelling towards our destination ? Perhaps we all need tour guides ( or Guru) to show us the way The decision is very personal and we all know the answer.

rkumar

October 30th, 2003, 07:34 PM

Dear friends,

Sorry for being late lateef in entering such a wonderful and thought provoking debate. I read it all and wish to make some submissions.

1. Imagination is as real as reality as human brain is incapable of imaginations.

2. Human body has the sigantures of whole universe on it through all the elements found in universe.

3. No two human being are identical in perception of their surroundings. Perception is an outcome of interaction between two systems. Lack of perception is noting but lack of interaction which gives one feeling of non existence.

4. There is nothing like wrong, everything is right/ fact.

5. Nature is nothing but menifestation of circumstantial coincidence.

6. feeling something is more fundamental than seeing it. Seeing is nothing but confirmation of feeling and some times it may take a great deal of time to see what one feels.

With my above views I can say that those who do not beleive in supreme force, the creator of nature, need to feel a bit more. Call this supreme force by any name, it hardly matters. Mind you all forces can not be measured. Small forces by scientific standards can move heavy objects. Science is incapable in quantifying many natural forces in its present form. Here are few examples;

a. Love is a strong force and responsible for great creations. Will any great scientist tell me how to measure it??

b. Hate is a great destructive force. Has been responsible for destrying cities and cultures. Any one to qualtify this force?

c. Knowledge is a great force. How will one quantify knowledge as force??

As rightly said by many friends, scientific knowledge in present form has many limitations and can not explain everything. May be the supreme force in side us will feel the supreme force outside and when both resonate, we will feel how it looks like or feels like..

Regards
Rajendra

bhuvanmirdha

October 30th, 2003, 11:26 PM

In this whole I would like to express my views in the form of an imaginary discussion created....hope it would able to lit the path in this very ethical debate.
***********************************

An atheist professor of philosophy speaks to his class on the problem science has with Krishna. He asks one of his new students Hiten Raja to stand and.....

Professor: You are a Hare Krishna devotee, aren't you, son?
Hiten : Yes, sir.
Prof: So you believe in God?
Hiten : Absolutely, sir.
Prof: Is God good?
Hiten : Sure.
Prof: Is God all-powerful?
Hiten : Yes.
Prof: My brother died of cancer even though he prayed to Krishna to heal him. Most of us would attempt to help others who are ill. But Krishna didn't. How is this Krishna good then? Hmm?
(Hiten Raja is silent.)

Prof: You can't answer, can you? Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?
Hiten :Yes.
Prof: Is Shaitan good?
Hiten :No.
Prof: Where does Shaitan come from?
Hiten : From...God...
Prof: That's right. Tell me son, is there evil in this world?
Hiten : Yes.
Prof: Evil is everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything. Correct?
Hiten : Yes.
Prof: So who created evil?

(Hiten does not answer.)

Prof: Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things exist in the world, don't they?
Hiten :Yes, sir.
Prof: So, who created them?
(Hiten has no answer.)
Prof: Tell me, son. Do you believe in Krishna?
Hiten :Yes, professor, I do.
Prof: Science says you have 5 senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Krishna?
Hiten : No, sir.
Prof: Tell us if you have ever heard your Krishna?
Hiten : Yes , sir.
Prof: Have you ever felt your Krishna, tasted your Krishna, smelt your Krishna? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Krishna or God for that matter?
Hiten : No, sir. I'm afraid I haven't.
Prof: Yet you still believe in Him?
Hiten : Yes.
Prof: According to empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your Krishna doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?
Hiten :Nothing. I only have my faith.
Prof: Yes. Faith. And that is the problem science has.

Hiten : Professor, is there such a thing as heat?
Prof: Yes.
Hiten :And is there such a thing as cold?
Prof: Yes.
Hiten : No sir. There isn't.
(The lecture theatre becomes very quiet with this turn of events.)
Hiten : Sir, you can have lots of heat, even more heat, superheat, mega heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat. But we don't have anything called cold. We can hit 273 degrees below zero which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold. Cold is only a word we use to describe
the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold.
>>Heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.

(There is pin-drop silence in the lecture theatre.)

Hiten : What about darkness, Professor? Is there such a thing as darkness?
Prof: Yes. What is night if there isn't darkness?
Hiten : You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is the
absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light.....But if you have no light constantly, you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? In reality, darkness isn't. If it were you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?
Prof: So what is the point you are making, young man?
Hiten : Sir, my point is your philosophical premise is flawed.
Prof: Flawed? Can you explain how?
Hiten : Sir, you are working on the premise of
duality. You argue there is life and then there is
death, a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant
of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life: just the absence of it.

Now tell me, Professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?
Prof: If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, yes, of course, I do.
Hiten : Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?

(The Professor shakes his head with a smile, beginning to realize where the argument is going.)
Hiten : Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavour, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you not a scientist but a preacher?
(The class is in uproar.)
Hiten : Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the Professor's brain?
(The class breaks out into laughter.)

Hiten : Is there anyone here who has ever heard the Professor's brain, felt it, touched or smelt it?.....No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, sir. With all due respect, sir, how do we then trust your
lectures, sir?

(The room is silent. The professor stares at the
student, his face unfathomable.)
Prof: I guess you'll have to take them on faith, son.

Hiten Raja : That is it sir.. The link between man & god is FAITH.

That is all that keeps things moving & alive.
***********************************

jitendersingh

October 31st, 2003, 12:48 AM

Dear All,

The discussion is getting more and more motivating for me as I saw the increasing number of participants in it.

Really getting to what people think of such an issue and with what spirit always motivates you. Maybe I am from the minority (probably only one who is holding the stance against you ALL) but then the spirit has always encouraged to put up my views.

Putting my views on the latest postings.
Ramesh Lakra Bhai, I am not emphasizing that whether anybody has seen the God or not. My view is that if God is there, then why?

When we hypothesize, let God is there. God is only one. (everybody agrees to this!) Then why do Hindus say that there should be Mandir in Ayodhya. A Maszid is also a place of worshipping God. Only difference is the name by which we worship. Then why the destruction of maszid for building mandir?

I am really convinced that you will be using your wits to reply this. I have again used the term Hypothesis because I still am not being able to convince myself for so called meditation, unless I am convinced to the basics of the issue.

The core issue is again faith. I do believe that nature is the supreme force of the universe, and abiding by the natural laws learnt in my surrounding define my moral stand.

Again coming to the issue of atma. The soul of an individual is the reflection of the environment he has been brought up rather than an entity which as per your beliefs is static. That is why if two newly born babies are brought up in different environment they will have different moral standards. If a boy is brought up in an arya samaji environment, he will hate eating meat etc., but if the same is brought up in the areas where meat is a daily meal, he wouldn't consider it a sin.

If you think that believing in God is the sole objective of one's life and else it is a sin, I am doing this sin for last 10 years or so, and I am sure I have never put my head or my stand down by any standard even in a society dominated by the God-believing people.

Budh ji, I agree everything can't be argues by logic or science, otherwise the life would be too much complex. And that is where we go by convention.

In your example, what if the friend met, insisted, but the passenger still went up with his journey and dies. Was it the fault of the friend the he let him die. Please don't say that the person was bound to die, friend could not do anything.

Sheorayan Ji, again kudos for maintaining the spirit of an positive debate. It is always the requirement of each and every event to bring out something concrete. Infact for me results are subjective personally, but I would really like anybody to bring out summary of the discussion atleast each week.

But again I argue against the last line. Why need the so called Gurus. I know for me what is right and what is wrong. You know what is right and what is wrong. Everybody participating in does know what they do mean, when they are writing. It is simply a matter of learning from each other. The same spirit should imply to the society as well. The so called Guru are only milking their own interests out of people's faith.

jitendersingh

October 31st, 2003, 12:57 AM

Rajinder Bhai,

Better late than never. Welcome aboard this nice discussion.

I agree scientific knowledge a still very much limited. But the so called philosophy is not only limited but impractical as well. That is the reason why I don't have faith in it.

I also agree to the so called soft substances like feelings, faith, motivation etc. I also believe in the supreme force, but I don't name it imaginary God. I call it practical Nature.

ajmer

October 31st, 2003, 01:48 AM

Folks,

I would like to go on records saying that I am in Jitender's camp. Some of the issues can be argued but I am mostly (>90%) in agreement with Jitender's ideas so far. To me he has been putting a more convincing argument.

I do believe that we are just part of the process of evolution. Evolution is a property of the nature. It is millions probably billions years of evolution and can't be explained so easily. We just started to understand it only a few thousand years ago. It is possible that a similar attempt had been done earlier and foiled by nature.

I believe that humanity is the best religion - humanity not just towards humans but the entire nature.

The only issue I would argue on is the Guru. A true Guru will not ask you to believe in something blindly but will pass on his/her wisdom and experience without asking anything or minimal in return.

Doing a good deed is always good in the long run. That you and I learn by experience. I would never give up a chance to do a good deed.

I don't believe in life after death.

Most of the argument I have heard in favor of God is what you would hear from a pujari.

Yes, I would agree that meditation or whatever can change the state of your mind and provide rest to your mind is good. But so would a good night's sleep.

Yes, science has limitations and that is why we all are working on it. In fact science is in its infancy. We have only scratched the surface of the iceberg. We have answers to a few things and in fullness of time we will have answers to so many more.

Today people like me and Jitender are in minority and that itself explains to some extent so much disturbance in the world in the name of race and religion. But a time will come when we will be in majority. I am not saying that the disturbance will stop. At that time the clever (mean) minds will find something else to exploite. Again that is all natural and nature will take its course.

There are just so many variables in the equation that the science doesn't have a formula to model to predict the future. But it is in the works and may take a while, maybe next thousand years given the exponential speed of discovery in the science. But I have a fear that we might just be a little too late by then.

Well, I am a true believer in nature. Some of my messages are:

- Save the trees.
- Save the rainforest.
- Preserve the water.
- Don't spoil the environment.
- Take it easy.

-ajmer

drnchaudhry

October 31st, 2003, 03:33 AM

Bhuvanesh Mirdha (Oct 30, 2003 12:56 p.m.):

Hiten Raja : That is it sir.. The link between man & god is FAITH.

That is all that keeps things moving & alive.
***********************************
Bhuvanesh Ji,
A nice article right on the time!
Thanks for sharing it.
Faith n faith,
nothing but the faith only - keeps things rolling.
Yes, it is very personal in nature mine can not be yours and vice versa. One can have it during meditation while other simply in his/her deeds.
Lets call it mother nature, God, or something else as per our mental setup and apply our goodness and energy for a better tomorrow.

bnashier

October 31st, 2003, 05:47 AM

[quote]Bhuvanesh Mirdha (Oct 30, 2003 12:56 p.m.):
In this whole I would like to express my views in the form of an imaginary discussion created....hope it would able to lit the path in this very ethical debate.
***********************************
Prof: I guess you'll have to take them on faith, son.

Hiten Raja : That is it sir.. The link between man & god is FAITH.

That is all that keeps things moving & alive.
***********************************
Wonderfully narrated. It is the Faith. There is no question of why God is there and where is he! It is simply one's faith. God is not confined in any buildings - simply because faith does not sit inside a building. It is in you! These organised gathering generally have nothing to do with finding God. These are nice social functions. Destroying buildings and fighting in the name of God is nothing but destruction and fight - it has nothing to do with God. The nice thing about faith is that either you have it or you don't. Either way is fine so long as it suits you. There is really no fight or debate over it.

ishwarlamba

October 31st, 2003, 07:40 AM

All,
I read views of many of u Yajvir Ji, Jitender Ji, Ajmer Ji, Dr Narender, Budh Ji, Subha ji, Anil Ji, Uday Ji, Balraj JI and Dudee sahib.
It is very interesting topic and I will give my input also.
Faith: Blind faith is only harmful, we have to start with logic. Jitender has faith in science, hence faith in God will come only when it will make sense to him
Reincarnation: In a Gujrat village near Surat a woman was pergnant. She was hit by the cow with horn. She started bleeding and the leg of the baby was visible outside. A doctor was called, he was helpless. An old lady came, she said I need a needle and a lamp. She made the needle hot and touched the baby. The baby took the leg inside, she was not taught by Jitender Singh.
Karma: The way karma is taught now a days is not correct. Because of this we where ruled by others. Faith in Jotish is the biggest problem.
The friend in his house and he missed the bus which had accident is nothing to do with karma. They all events taking place randomly, it is our free will, we all are free to perform our actions. Let me tell your death is not fixed.
Some car comes and hits you, you die. No body know about future including God.
Please remember we are all free for actions.
When I read newspaper, my wife tells me to do some other work. She is not dictated by God.
It is not the business of God to decide our death. God has so many things to do.
Let me explain karma. When a creature dies, based on the karma of this life (only if human being) and some karmas of previous lifes, God decides the rebirth family of a suitable creature or Moksha (free from life death life cycle). From the birth of a human being, during childhood, he/she will not perform karmas. Karmas are there for parents and relatives etc. Karmas meter starts only after he/she starts understanding things. He/She can perform good, nuteral or bad karmas. Other than human beings, no other creatures perform karmas. We are effected by good, nuetral and bad karmas of others as all of us are free to perform our karmas.
We may or may not be punished at home or society fairly or unfairly. It is all like share market, which Budh Ji explained.
There are three eternal entities and they have their own properties. they are not dependent on some bodies faith. They are God, Soul and Nature. They were always there, are there and will be their. They have no cause. God has not created Nature and Souls.
God: It has three fundamental properties: Sat (existance), Chit(inteligent) and Anand (bilss)
Soul: It has two fundamental properties: Sat (existance) and Chit(inteligent). It is missing anand and try to get enjoyment from nature or God.
Nature: It has two fundamental properties: Sat (existance) and some Anand (taste). It has no inteligence.

jitendersingh

November 2nd, 2003, 03:56 PM

Dear Bhuvnesh Ji, Budh Ji and Dr. Dudee,

Clearly it is the Faith that is associating people to the God. I still do argue about having such faith, if it is with good spirit. But what is happening is that this faith has become more or less a method of befooling people rather than keeping up the spirit of your spirituality and driving people do goods.

Again, I would like to get your suggestion on the Ayodhya Mandir issue. Won't it be okay to keep up the maszid, since it is also a place to worship God? Your spirituality says God is one. Please don't skip answering to this question again. And please do take the issue with the spirit of the debate and not the way that I want to hurt the feeling of you people.

Your turn please!!!

jitendersingh

November 2nd, 2003, 04:18 PM

Dear Ishwar Ji,

Please don't take that the science is taught only in the class room. Anything reasoned out in the physical or logical domains is science.

Again, as Bhai Ajmer Ji have stated that science is still in its infancy and it has a long way to go out.

I also disagree that Nature in not intelligent. All intelligence is carved out of the Nature. Did you learned to see the things out of the nature? It may be that the literature you read might be stating that do believe in God because Nature is not intelligent. But I owe my existence, knowledge and intelligence wholly to the Nature.

Again in your demonstration, why do you think that the baby took the leg in, and not took the leg with the hot needle. Simply due to natural laws.

Again, science do not need to learned in the classroom. It can be learned anywhere with a good observing head. Do you think that mere being a doctor, a person must be knowing every aspect of that profession. If I don't study my subjects with interest I may still clear the exams but it may be that I am not aware of all the aspects of my subject.

bnashier

November 2nd, 2003, 07:01 PM

Dear Mr. Jitender Singh:

I will attempt to explain my views (and facts that will possibly bring comfort to human race) in a brief and direct manner. I will do it with brevity of a professorial discourse.

1. Don't tell lies, Don't hurt others, Be honest, Be kind, Help others, Do your duty sincerely, Take a few moments before you go to sleep and think about things you did during the day which you probably should not have done, Remain honest to your own conscience as you can’t hide the facts from self.
Once you live a life following these basic principles, then you are a spiritual person in the truest sense. Call yourself what you wish - Atheist, Agnostic or a Believer.

2. When we don’t understand or we can’t explain some phenomenon, then we associate it to some power beyond our comprehension. Call it Nature, God or a Sense beyond us - or something else you wish.

2. There has been more bloodshed in this world in the name of religion than by any other cause. Going to buildings has nothing to do with finding God for believers, these are social gatherings which generally have been breeding grounds of frictions and hatred in societies.

3. Organized religion has nothing to do with God ( in my view)- otherwise we all contradict ourselves when we say that OURS in the only God and OURS in the only WAY to get to Him.

4. For believers and nonbelievers alike, there should be only one religion or principle: Love of Humanity.

5. In the case of Ayodhya or any other place of conflict like it, a good solution to the problem is to build a good school in that location AND make sure that students from ALL faiths and beliefs are enrolled and taught there.

Jitender Singh (Nov 02, 2003 05:26 a.m.):
Dear Bhuvnesh Ji, Budh Ji and Dr. Dudee,

Clearly it is the Faith that is associating people to the God. I still do argue about having such faith, if it is with good spirit. But what is happening is that this faith has become more or less a method of befooling people rather than keeping up the spirit of your spirituality and driving people do goods.

Again, I would like to get your suggestion on the Ayodhya Mandir issue. Won't it be okay to keep up the maszid, since it is also a place to worship God? Your spirituality says God is one. Please don't skip answering to this question again. And please do take the issue with the spirit of the debate and not the way that I want to hurt the feeling of you people.

Your turn please!!!

guliayaj100

November 2nd, 2003, 11:21 PM

dear jitendra,
You consider nature above everything---ok. What is nature? you must be knowing that everything in this world is made up of similar type of matter i.e. electrons , protons and neutrons or any further division of theirs. These are the parts of matter which can niether be created nor be destroyed. If the material is the same it must have been one at some time. It has taken different shapes latter on. Did the electrons had the intelligence to acquire different combinations to form different type atoms? NO. As the iron ore will remain as it is in the earth and it can not convert itself into a railway engine , similarly the matter can not change itself into intelligent objects. An external force is required to give it a perfact shape .
Laws are rules to make things systematic. Laws are to be made. We do not find any example of a law which has become itself. Similar is the case with the natural laws.
But in my opinion we must not accept anything just on the basis of belief. On this line i ask you a question.
What is nature? Is it JAD( senseless, which cannot take decision of ist own) ?
or is it CHETAN (having sense, can do work, keep on doing development)? If it chetan, what is that?
If you consider it JAD , how can you justify all the intelligent activities going on the earth.
If you consider it chetan , you will have to tell about that.

guliayaj100

November 3rd, 2003, 12:07 AM

Dear jitendra,
We must not forget our history. We should know our history and learn lesson from the mistakes committed , should be aware of our capabilities and try to make more progress.
I am an arya samaji. i do not believe in idol worshiping. Still i am of the opinion of making a temple at Ayodhya if it really existed there. This is because the matter is related to the prestige of Hindus. If one has read the history he can have the knowledge of the happennings of the last 1000 years in India. How cruel were the muslims towards the hindus. How they destroyed the rich legacy of india. a number of temples were dashed to the ground , library of Takshshila (if you know something about that) ,how people were killed . It is like a horror story. It is their religion which asks them to finish the hindus.
Do you think if india hands over J & K to pak it will become a good friend of india. never .Their aim is to finish the Kaphirs and hindus are Kaphirs as per them. The same case is in india. If we do not look powerfull we will be finished. Gandhi ji's policy fail before them.
if the muslims destroy a temple today and build a masjid would you like to have a school openned then also?

guliayaj100

November 3rd, 2003, 12:41 AM

Dear those who do not believe in god,
If you do not believe in god, you should not believe in re-birth and karamphal.
Don't tell lies, don't hurt others,be honest, be kind, help others , do your duty sincerely-----------OK-------but why always?
If i can get Rs 10 lakhs by telling a lie, then why shouldn't I?
I saw a person having met with an accident on a road . If i help him i can be in trouble with the police. Why should i help him if nobody is going to give me reward for that.
I found a bag full of money. If i keep it i can live a good life and if i don't i will have to do a lot of hard work through out my life. Then why i should deposite it in the police station if nobody is watching.
Why should i do my duties sincerely if others are not doing in the office?

bhuvanmirdha

November 3rd, 2003, 01:49 AM

Jitender Singh (Nov 02, 2003 05:26 a.m.):
Dear Bhuvnesh Ji, Budh Ji and Dr. Dudee,

Clearly it is the Faith that is associating people to the God. I still do argue about having such faith, if it is with good spirit. But what is happening is that this faith has become more or less a method of befooling people rather than keeping up the spirit of your spirituality and driving people do goods.

Again, I would like to get your suggestion on the Ayodhya Mandir issue. Won't it be okay to keep up the maszid, since it is also a place to worship God? Your spirituality says God is one. Please don't skip answering to this question again. And please do take the issue with the spirit of the debate and not the way that I want to hurt the feeling of you people.

Your turn please!!!
***********************************
Dear Jitendra Ji
Simply relation of man and god is faith but this Ram Mandir issue is not connected with faith, it is a political movement, to make people fool with the tool of religion. Nobody wants to make a mandir, because after this they will have to headon for some other issues and this would be difficult task so they want to continue feed this in our brains for votes, simply otherwise why this mandier issue stands up just before elections? In last 1992 movement had any political leader killed, Mr. L K Advani, Mr Ashok Singhal, Mr Togadia, Mr. Thakre, they only imprisoned for their safety which was predetermined and all are with us now...only some innocent families lost their loving sons, husbands, fathers.... due to blindly faith on the man (not on the god, Ram never came in dream of any hindu to say about his mandir)....Do faith on god, but always think with your own mind. God does not say to kill other religious people, to make mandirs, to go even in mandirs. Only this is man who put this god's issue in the market to fulfill his necessary and unnecessary needs on the cost of others faith.

Jitendra Ji I never oppose you on this issue as you say you dont have faith on god, you are OK with your arguments, but you have faith on your arguments, your knowledge and this is the faith of god, nobody never seen, heard the god, only we faith on something.. on us, on parents, on meditation, on Ram...... all are different modes to make strong us mentally and this is really the faith of god....God is not an entity..this is only the name of mode given by people...and this is required to run this brain efficientely.

jitendersingh

November 4th, 2003, 01:00 AM

Dear Budh Ji,

I really appreciate your clarity of thoughts. I agree with your ideology as well. And I thank you for giving me an additional principle to live with:

"There should be only one religion or principle: Love of Humanity"

My only intention of taking the Ayodhya issue is that this Love of Humanity is being voilated by the so called political and religious ideologues, whose only intention is to befool people.

jitendersingh

November 4th, 2003, 01:13 AM

Dear Yajbir Ji,

Thanks for asking me to go to my conscience. Each and every object in this universe has two things: one is structure, and another is behaviour, which distinguish it from other objects. Nature is the collection of all objects in the universe.

What you have been talking of is only the static part of nature, that is the structure. The objects also have the behaviours as well. It is as elementry as the electron possessing the negative charge will attract the positvely charged particles. This is what the behaviour is.

It is okay that iron ore does not have enough intelligence to make a railway engine out of it. But the Nature has. Do you think that there was some spiritual aspect associated in the making of railway engine out of iron ore. I'll be interested if there is. For me it is the gradual development of the natural resources ( Man, Tools made out of nature, and the various materials). I again strictly believe that the knowledge we gain comes out of this world only.

Probably, I have answered your question as well!

jitendersingh

November 4th, 2003, 01:38 AM

Yajvir Bhai,

I agree we must not forget our history. And we should learn from the mistakes, should be aware of our capabilities and try to make progress.

So that is why we must not commit the same mistakes, or do another mistakes for the sake of correcting the mistakes.

I hope that if you are Arya Samaji than you must be aware of the ten principles stated in Arya Samaj. Please do revise your 6th and 10th principle. Hope it will benefit you.

Again, coming to the prestige of Hindus, how many Hindus you have asked before declaring that it is the prestige of Hindus. Prestige of Hindus is the upliftment of Hindus, removal of social evils of Hindus and not the building of the mandir. Again we are living in a Secular country, where it is a crime to deprive a person his fundamental rights for the sake of the prestige of another individual. Again, you are not only violating your constitution, but your Arya Samaji faith as well. (Principle 10)

Probably, you are treating every Muslim to be from Pakistan. The concept of India and Pakistan is quite different from the concept of Hindu and Muslim.

I have never seen in any religious book that asks its followers to finish the followers of another religion. Nowhere in Hindus', Muslims', Sikhs', or Christians'. From where you get your kind knowledge? Please tell me too.

Finally, please correct. In Ayodhya, Hindus demolished the Masjid on Dec 6, 1992. And are now trying to build the Mandir now.

Answer to your last question: I am strictly against these places being built. Rather than spending so much of money in show-off for your religion, try to do something for humanity. A school is really a very good option.

jitendersingh

November 4th, 2003, 01:54 AM

Really Yajvir Bhai,

I don't believe in doing anything for the sake of the fear of your God.

If I don't tell lies it is because I don't want that people around me don't have faith in me.
If I don't hurt anybody it is because atleast I am trying to avoid a person standing against me.
If I want to be honest it is because being honest helps you in living a tensionless life.
If I do my duty sincerely it helps me improve my efficiency in my profession.
And for always, because life is not a single moment, but it is a collection of million moments.
If I get Rs. 10 lakh for a lie, I simply don't because my words are priceless, as the loss incurred (which I do save by not speaking) by the lie which can fetch such an amount. So I may not get 10 lakh but I saved many more, isn't?
If you help anybody only for the award, that is your conscience, mine says help because he will be motivated to help others. And if I help others then only I can expect others to help me in trouble.
How come nobody is watching? You are watching. If your observation is too meek, you may go over with the fear of getting caught forever, rather than living a proud life.
If others are drinking will you? If yes, you are free to follow others as example, rather than being an example for others.

ajmer

November 4th, 2003, 07:11 AM

Folks,

First of all, I really appreciate you all for keeping the spirit of this discussion positive. My earlier post could have been taken in a wrong sense even though I had no intension of offending anyone. Thanks to Dr. Dudee, Dr. Nashier and Ch. Ishwar Singh for their positive thinking that we are discussing such a controversial topic in such a healthy manner.

I agree wholeheartedly with all the points Dr. Nashier brought up. I would do all these, not because of the fear of God but because it is good for me in the long run and it is very practical. As Jitender pointed out life is not just a moment, it is a collection of millions of moments. Human is a social animal. You must do good Karma to build a goodwill with others and to enjoy and cherish upon the moments you have been able to contribute positively to the society and your surroundings.

I would use a simple mechanism to decide what is good and what is bad in most circumstances - behave how you would like others to behave and do what you would like to see others do. In other cases do your best and happily accept the consequences.

I truely believe that you will see the consequences of your Karma in this life. So you have to do good Karma to minimize the bad consequences. Sometimes the consequences are immediate, sometime it takes a while.

Bhuvan and others have already explained very well and I agree fully that God is really ones faith. It is really a state of mind. And that is fine. It becomes a problem when it starts dictating our actions. Especially, when it makes us do things which divide the society or leads us to clashes such as Ayodha or Kashmir. A similar state of mind also sometimes gives us a false sense of superiority (or sometimes inferiority) and plays a role in racism.

I agree with Dr. Nashier's point 2(a) that there are things we don't understand and can't comprehend. We leave those things beyond us and simply let them play out. These are things which are beyond our control and capabilities. We can only do and understand this much. No one person is all that powerful. For that matter, entire human race is not that powerful. This is a very complex world. Nobody can claim to have understood everything.

All we have to do is try not to exploit. Because that creates an imbalance which leads to clashes and creates an unhealthy society.

It is very hard to grasp for some people but I would argue that God is created by humans and not vice-versa. It is humans who created the concept of God and then gave it different names and divided the society based on which name of the God you choose.

To those of us who believe in the natural evolution of human race let me ask a question - do animals believe in God? Maybe they do, who knows but I am kinda doubtful.

Just a few thoughts.

-ajmer

jitendersingh

November 5th, 2003, 10:16 PM

Dear Ajmer,

Really you have been quite daring to strike out the most important aspect of the discussion:
"It is very hard to grasp for some people but I would argue that God is created by humans and not vice-versa. It is humans who created the concept of God and then gave it different names and divided the society based on which name of the God you choose."
Really people do try to argue this but this is indeed a damn truth.

The last question has only one answer-
"Only Dogs know....."

scsheorayan

November 6th, 2003, 06:56 AM

Dear Jitu,

From above postings we can deduce that your confidence in God's non existence is almost complete. You have also established that God is only an imagination of man. That closes the doors on you for future learning about this topic. A person only learns when he/she is curious enough or unsure of some thing.Can you prove that there is no God ? Atleast leave some room for your curiosity that one day you may come across a situation where you may have a change of heart.

The fact that some of us are deprived of the feeling of God's presence is due to doubts we have about ourselves or they say self doubting.
The process of self knowledge starts with understanding yourself and then it leads to realisation of God. There is no need to prove or disprove the presence of God. Because the facts do not cease to exist even if they are ignored. For your sake let us say that God never existed only people imagined about him for centuries. You have to agree that they believed in some thing close to perfect (which is much better than our little selves and our imperfect logics and standards we set for ourselves). For example you say that if I do not tell a lie........ tell me can you say for sure that in your life time not even once you have told a smallest lie. I don't know any one who can make that claim and you may be the first one. On the other hand if you can not make that claim then can we say none of us including you and I are perfect and could use some help in being better than what we are to-day. If you agree with this arguement then you also agree that human beings have an object in life higher than eating,sleeping and breeding i.e. self actualisation and in it's finest form leads to God realisation.Some one asked here if animals believe in God. If animals can think and communicate then surely it will be there favourite topic of discussion as it is among humans.

God does not micro manage our lives but rewards are based on our actions. There are no absolute rights and wrongs they all depend on our point of view.Where as cause and effect are interdependent. For every cause there is certain effect and the law which governs those effects relate to God. We are free to do what we please but are not free to accept or reject the effect of our actions. That is the theory of Karma in it's simplest form. Those issues which have created so much turmoil in the World in the name of religion have nothing to do with God but religion is used as an excuse to pursue political agenda that is the irony. People will do any thing in the name of religion except following it.
Ayodhya Mandir is only one such example.

Some one ( Baljit I think) asked about favourite Gods of Jats which are Hanuman ji and Shivaji and they are pleased easily by simplistic and purity of life style. When an imminent danger stares in the face (e.g. entering a 200 feet deep well with the support of a rope Hanuman ji has given courage to millions of Jats in overcoming the fear and giving them confidence, similarly soldiers have drawn on this source of strength to face enemy in war time). Our religion and culture is the richest in World where we have specialist Gods for every occasion e.g. Ganesh for commissioning, Sarswati for education, Laxmi for prosperity, Hanuman ji for fearless ness. They are all different forms of one God but were helpful to ordinary people in following the laws of God in their daily lives. Unfortunately Brahmins misused simple faith of public to their advantage and created superstition by creating fear in people's mind. Swami Dayanand has done a great job of overcoming those superstitions and has said that Jat ji is the one closest to God. That is the main reason why Arya Samaj became so popular in the last century but seems to be losing favour because of confusion created by various agents of God. Have the clarity of thought and hopefully one day you will realise God and even if we do not realise God in this life We would have led a good and honest life, which does not seems to be such a bad idea after all. What do you say? Are you absolutely sure that there is no God and every thing that happens in this World happens by chance.

jitendersingh

November 6th, 2003, 10:59 AM

Dear Sheorayan Ji,

I want to tell you that the topic we are discussing is the most favourite for me. It is not simply that I want to oppose what others say in this regard, but because I have been curious enough. The level of my curiosity can be statistically defined by the fact that more than one third of my postings on the site are on this topic only.

Anyway coming back to the topic, I never had the doubt on myself, but the reason I don't believe in the God is simply due to the fact that nothing has been able to convince me of His presence.

Nextly, I am not a perfectionist. Niether it is that I have always been right. What I wanted to say that I do not do things because I fear from anybody, but I do things as per my conscience. It maybe sometimes it may be wrong as well.

I also have no intension in doing anything for some reward. I would like, and surely will, do things only because they give me satisfaction of doing. If I help somebody, my intesion has never been that God will someday reward me for that, or in my next birth, I do so because it gives me satisfaction of doing it. And if I expect anything it is that the man I have helped will help somebody in turn if the need be.

Again I ask you if God is one, how come this concept of the favourite Gods. It means you think that people from other communities and religion have nothing to do with the spirituality! Or else these Gods discriminate your community from others! Strange on parts of Gods. When I'll talk to a brahmin he'll say he is the closest to God, because he has been making efforts to enlive Him for centuries. I f a mandir is made in Ayodhya, the people belonging to VHP will become pet of the God.

How come the Brahmins misused your faith in God, they have made the efforts only to increase your faith in God. If you believe that God exists, I think they have done well, else God will punish them, why you do bother?

And when I say that there is one and only one supreme power in the world called Nature, how come it is wrong, when it neither discreminates on any basis, nor we have to argue about its existence???

your turn!!!

scsheorayan

November 6th, 2003, 01:12 PM

Dear Jitu,

Thanks for your frank posting. If you would like to maintain that nature is the supereme power in itself and there is nothing higher than nature. When we call some thing supreme it must be beyond improvement i.e. must be perfect and never changing. Does it hold true for nature. It does evolve and people around the globe believe that it needs protection from human beings. It still does not explain the highest truth which once established should leave no room for improvement. That can only apply to God who is beyond all adjectives and superlatives.

It is ignorance due to which Brahmins have been able to exploit uneducated masses. Various religions try and prove the superiority of their own religion over others which is natural because that improves their self esteem. Favourite Gods and rituals are to help simple people establish their faith in some thing superior to their own self. It is just a tool which could and have been misused time and again. For those who have acquired true knowledge about self and God the rituals are unnecessary. Like any other ritual there are two aspects of prayer one is physical and other spiritual. Places of worship can only help with physical part but spirituality has to come from within the individual which can also happen at any other spot out side the place of worship.

bnashier

November 6th, 2003, 02:15 PM

Dear Jitender Singh:

I am very glad to see this humane side of you through post # 61. To me, this is by far the best of all the earlier messages you have written. I am very happy for you. So, you are a believer in fact.

“...that I do not do things because I fear from anybody, but I do things as per my conscience.” - is a high moral. You believe in your conscience while doing things - this is spirituality.

“...also have no intension in doing anything for some reward. I would like, and surely will, do things only because they give me satisfaction of doing....And if I expect anything it is that the man I have helped will help somebody in turn if the need be.” Well, well, well - watch out here. You are going after the highest reward of all rewards. A personal satisfaction which leads to peace, and an expectation of others to do good simply because you did some good to them!

“...Again I ask you if God is one, how come this concept of the favourite Gods. It means you think that people from other communities and religion have nothing to do with the spirituality!” Very good - this is THE problem. Christians have their God, Muslims have their own, Hindus have many of them. This is what has brought so much friction and pain in the world.

“And when I say that there is one and only one supreme power in the world called Nature..” So, you do believe in Supreme power and you call it Nature. A good believer.

Shubha Chand Sheorayan Ji writes “We are free to do what we please but are not free to accept or reject the effect of our actions. That is the theory of Karma in it's simplest form.” To me, this is the essence of spirituality. We can’t escape our Karma. This led me to write and follow # 1 in my post # 49. I am believer. I believe in a Supreme power as I can’t find explanations for many things that happen in life. I call it God. I could easily call Him something else if the word God is being misused. I don’t search for Him in any building or in different forms. I don’t jump up or down to please Him. I don’t fast or light candles to please Him. He is in my conscience. This is why I wrote that Love of Humanity is the best religion. I read commentary of Vedas and that strengthens my spirituality.
Finally, dear Jitender Singh, from your current post I infer that you are a believer in more Godly sense than many who enchant slogans and don’t appeal to their conscience while operating in life. They are the ones who are lost - and they may not realize it.

ashokpaul

November 6th, 2003, 06:00 PM

A great discussion, but don't you think we are in a viscious circle here. We are here to discuss
GOD. Some of us says its matter of faith whether to accept or not. But if one does not have faith in God, one can't challenge His existence.

to define Faith and God, lets' have a story:

"Once there were two friends, one the believer, and the other had no faith in existence of God. They were always discussing the topic with each others with new arguments every time. On a evening they discussed the topic curiously. But both of them were firm on their stands. On the very next morning, they wake up with reversed faith. Former is non-believer and believer the latter."

It generally happens in our surrounding.

But,sages says that one can't make the other to believe in God. Its a long self-motivated process in which one has to critically examine with all the facts, with truth in his mind, for ages. In this birth then next and next.......
Then it may happen(based on one knowledge, action and prayer) that one become believer or not.

jitendersingh

November 6th, 2003, 10:08 PM

Dear Sheorayan Ji,

Do you think that you know the Nature completely. Atleast I have failed in doing so. I am really wanting situation on this issue. But whenever I have indulged with a doubt in my life, I have been able to resolve or reason it on the basis of its functioning. That has been the main reason of my faith with it rather than Godly concepts, which have over and again created doubts in my mind.

I don't agree to your argument in the next para either that:
"Various religions try and prove the superiority of their own religion over others which is natural because that improves their self esteem"
If you are voilating your own religion to prove its superiority, how come you call it religion!

jitendersingh

November 6th, 2003, 10:29 PM

Dear Budh Ji,

Thanks for the analysis of my posting. It is always nice to have a person like you who can summarize the things as you also did in your earlier posting#49.

I have no objections calling me a believer, spiritual or anything else. Niether I am here to promote my ideas. My main idea has been to share my thought with all you people and get something for me out of it.

If you believe that doing things as per the conscience is spirituality, it's okay! From where does my conscience came, from my surroundings. Had I been brought up in different environment, I don't think it is mendatory that I would have the same conscience. That's why I owe a lot to people around me for what I have been right now!

Another obvious argument is: "Why do people run after spirituality? - just for the sake of peace."
If my attitude in life wins me peace out of it, why should I care for the spirituality?

The problem of many Gods is really THE problem, and it has brought the world under threat. It is something what all the followers, believers and non-believers of these Gods must look into.

Finally, my favourite quote for my ambition in life, which I used to quote in my schoolhood essays,
"Be what you like yourself want to be, otherwise you will have to be what others want you to be."

drnchaudhry

November 6th, 2003, 10:32 PM

Dear community Members,
I liked the spirit of discussion much more than the real discussion. I would like to thank every participant for their contribution and specially Mr. Jitendra, without his share we were unable to reach so far.
To me, he is 'Karm yogi' on the right path. His karma will leads him to self realization the same way Gyan n Dhyan does. Once he realize him self (Aatma) is not far from God (Parm aatma) .

ajmer

November 7th, 2003, 03:04 AM

Folks,

Thanks for keeping up the spirit of the discussion. Many of us are already in a voilent agreement. We agree that it is the faith. Some of us can call it belief, imagination or fear of unknown. For them the question becomes - is it good to have such blind faith?

Others have argued that it is a _fact_ that God exists. I have to respectfully disagree. If it is a fact then how come so many people have mis-understood such a fact that it has led to such a situation all around the world. Also, I see lot of disagreement in the believers of God and lot of inconsistency in ones belief of God. Some argue that God is everywhere and God plays a role (or watching) each and every action of ours. Others argue that God doesn't micro-manage and only look at the results of our actions. Others believe that God only plays a role on re-birth in deciding what should you become based on what you have done throughout your life. There are also beliefs that only humans are entitled to God because only humans can think and communicate when we all know that almost all animals can think and communicate otherwise how would they survive. Yes, one thing I am willing to accept is that maybe animals can't imagine otherwise they would also be fighting in the name of God today.

Such disagreement among the believers itself indicates that atleast it is not a _fact_ that God exists. Atleast it has not been proven to be a fact. Because once it becomes a fact there won't be such mass disagreement. Now you might just tell me that it is a fact, it just hasn't been proven yet. Well, I will believe it to be fact when it becomes a fact then.

I would like to add that I am thankful for our culture and values that I am free to express my views openly today. There are places and communities in the world I wouldn't dare to say a thing like that. I would also say that the time has come to open your mind question the status quo. If you just leave everything off to God, you wouldn't even attempt to search for so many answers. Start taking responsibilities.

Finally, I am not spreading a message here but you don't have to believe in God to live a honest and good life.

Thanks for reading.

-ajmer

bnashier

November 7th, 2003, 06:42 AM

Dear Ajmer:

I think it is a proper thing to exercise discernment while discussing a sensitive issue like faith. One should not take a broom and sweep all believers alike.

If you read even parts of Swami Vivekananda's collected works, you will realize that his faith was logical and far away from a blind faith. He was a scholar in the truest sense and a Karma-Yogi. There are others as well who are Karma-Yogis.

A faith becomes a blind faith when actions follow no logic; and personal greed, personal convenience, ignorance, intolerance and selfrighteousness become the driving force behind that faith. With this premise, not every believer has blind faith; however there are many who fall in that category.

As you sow, so shall you reap. Everybody will be responsible for his/her actions. There is no escaping.

Believing in God/Nature/Super Power does not mean you leave everything off to them and you sit down. No one ever narrated that.

One should be a Karma-Yogi and all else will be taken care. One doesn't have to worry the whereabouts of God or any other Power. It is in your conscience once you are a Karma-Yogi.

[quote]Ajmer Singh Dahiya (Nov 06, 2003 04:34 p.m.):
Folks,

Thanks for keeping up the spirit of the discussion. Many of us are already in a voilent agreement. We agree that it is the faith. Some of us can call it belief, imagination or fear of unknown. For them the question becomes - is it good to have such blind faith?

dahbal

November 7th, 2003, 12:45 PM

Hi Everybody,

I think everybody have their own idea about faith in God.And somebody are agreed and some are not .Now I think we should stop discussion on this topic because may be too long discussion will creat some misunderstanding between members.Everybody have their own way of thinking and experiences.

The following are few Quote regarding Religion about other countries great peoples including scientists based on Religion or God

/*************

I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the type of which we are conscious in ourselves. An individual who should survive his physical death is also beyond my comprehension, such notions are for the fears or absurd egoism of feeble souls.

- Albert Einstein

It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.

- Albert Einstein

lord, give me the serenity to accept the things i cannot change, courage to change the things i can, and wisdom to know the difference

- Anonymous

I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it.

- Benjamin Franklin

God favors no group. Only religions do that.

- Bumper Sticker

I believe in God like I believe in the sun rise. Not because I can see it, but because I can see all that it touches.

- C.S. Lewis

We regard God as an airman regards his parachute; it's there for emergencies but he hopes he'll never have to use it.

- C.S. Lewis

A God. The God. One word can make all the difference in the world.

- C.S. Lewis

Now that I am a Christian I do not have moods in which the whole thing looks very improbable: but when I was an atheist I had moods in which Christianity looked terribly probable.

- C.S. Lewis

Gods are fragile things; they may be killed by a whiff of science or a dose of common sense.

- Chapman Cohen

For those who believe in God, most of the big questions are answered. But for those of us who can't readily accept the God formula, the big answers don't remain stone-written. We adjust to new conditions and discoveries. We are pliable. Love need not be a command or faith a dictum. I am my own God. We are here to unlearn the teachings of the church, state, and our educational system. We are here to drink beer. We are here to kill war. We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us.

- Charles Bukowski

I can indeed hardly see how anyone ought to wish Christianity to be true, for if so, the plain language of the text seems to show that the men who do not believe, and this would include my Father, Brother and almost all my best friends, will be everlastingly punished. And this is a damnable doctrine.

- Charles Darwin

If we accept that there is neither a heaven or a hell, we renounce the idea of any power beyond the perception of science we then must accept responsibility for all we do in this life for there will be no form of atonement afterwards.

- Dominic Webb

"Fantastic doctrines (like Christianity or Islam or Marxism) require unanimity of belief. One dissenter casts doubt on the creed of millions. Thus the fear and the hate; thus the torture chamber, the iron stake, the gallows, the labor camp, the psychiatric ward.

- Edward Abbey

God is a circle whose center is everywhere and whose circumference is nowhere.

- Empedocles

The Church says that the Earth is flat, but I know that it is round. For I have seen the shadow on the moon and I have more faith in the Shadow than in the Church.

- Ferdinand Magellan

Do you believe that at the heart of the universe there is a room? Or do you believe that there is no heart to the universe, just down, down, and that the dark crow that rows back through the air marks us all for its own and darkness's?

- Frederick Buechner

I call Christianity the one great curse, the one great intrinsic depravity, the one great instinct for revenge for which no expedient is sufficiently poisonous, secret, subterranean, petty -- I call it the one mortal blemish of mankind.

- Friedrich Nietzsche

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.

- Galileo Galilei

When are we human beings gonna have a meeting? We took this god thing and ran to the god damn end of the earth with it.

- George Carlin

Many people genuinely do not wish to be saints, and it is possible that some who achieve or aspire to sainthood have never had much temptation to be human beings.

- George Orwell

God does not play dice with the universe: He plays an ineffable game of His own devising, which might be compared, from the perspective of any of the other players,* to being involved in an obscure and complex version of poker in a pitch-dark room, with balcnk cards, for infinite stakes, with a Dealer who won't tell you the rules, and who smiles all the time. * i.e., everbody.

- Good Omens By Neil Gaiman & Terry Pratchett

Life is an unfoldment, and the further we travel the more truth we can comprehend. To understand the things that are at our door is the best preparation for understanding those that lie beyond

- Hypatia

If God dwells inside us like some people say....I sure hope he likes enchiladas, cuz thats what he's getting.

- Jack Handey

God is a shout in the street.

- James Joyce

God Gave us our memories so that we might have roses in December.

- James Matthew Barrie

1 In the beggining Man created God: and in the image of Man created he him. 2 And Man gave unto God a multitude of names, that he might be Lord over all the earth when it was suited to Man. 3 And on the seven millionth day Man rested and did lean heavily on his God and saw that it was good. 4 And Man formed Aqualung of the dust of the ground, and a host of others likened unto his kind. 5 And these lesser men Man did cast into the void. And some were burned; and some were put apart from their kind. 6 And Man became the God that he had created and with his miracles did rule over all the earth. 7 But as these things did come to pass, the Spirit that did cause man to creat his God lived on within all men: even within Aqualung 8 And Man saw it not. 9 But for Christ's sake he'd better start looking.

- Jethro Tull

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that who soever beliveth in his shall not parish, but have everlasting life...

- John 3:16

If a `religion' is defined to be a system of ideas that contains unprovable statements, then Godel taught us that mathematics is not only a religion, it is the only religion that can prove itself to be one.

- John Barrow

Anyone who cannot understand how a useful religion can be based on lies will not understand this book either.

- Kurt Vonnegut, "Cat's Cradle"

Every day, people are straying away from the church and going back to God.

- Lenny Bruce

I have never seen Athieism dry the tears of a widowed bride. I have never seen Athieiesm comfort the single mother. I have never seen Athieism calm the spirit of a distressed father. And I have never seen Athieism offer hope to the hopeless, forgiveness to the sinner, and grace and mercy to all who ask it. Athieism indeed denies humans of the one thing our souls so long for; an answer. I have found the answer! The One and Only Answer.

- Logan McAdams

Believe it or not, Evolution Creation, Communism, Anarchism All isms are all religions. Perfect Neutrality of Religions is impossible.

- Lyden

...as hollow as the "o" in god...

- Marilyn Manson

"God gives gifts to all creatures," Allessandro continued," no matter what their station or condition. He may give innocence to a lunatic, or heaven to a thief. Contrary to most theologians, I have always believed that even worms and weasels have souls, and that even they are capable of salvation."

- Mark Helprin, "A Soldier of the Great War"

Most people are bothered by those passages in Scripture which they cannot understand; but as for me, I always notice that the passages in Scripture which trouble me most are those which I do understand.

- Mark Twain

Sacrecd cows make the best hamburger.

- Mark Twain

The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive mankind

- Marquis de Sade

Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men.

- Martin Luther King Jr.

"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."

- Napoleon

Religion is the fashionable substitute for belief.

- Oscar Wilde

God is really only another artist. He invented the giraffe, the elephant, and the cat. He has no real style. He just keeps on trying other things.

- Pablo Picasso

Divine Goodness does not only NOT reject penitent souls, but goes out in search of obstinate souls.

- Padre Pio

I can't say I believe in god. If, in fact, I ever find out that he does indeed exist, I think I'll stay away from him, because if he's responsible for half the things he gets credit for, he's got to be one mean son of a *****.

- Peter Gethers

Soon the child’s clear eye is clouded over by ideas and opinions, preconceptions and abstractions. Simple free being becomes encrusted with the burdensome armor of the ego. Not until years later does an instinct come that a vital sense of mystery has been withdrawn. The sun glints through the pines, and the heart is pierced in a moment of beauty and strange pain, like a memory of paradise. After that day… we become seekers.

- Peter Matthiessen

All that I have seen teaches me to trust the creator in all that I have not seen

- Ralph Waldo Emerson

I consider dogmatic belief and dogmatic denial very childish forms of conceit in a world of infinitely whirrling complexity.

- Robert Anton Wilson

I want no heaven for which I must give my reason; no happiness in exchange for my liberty, and no immortality that demands the surrender of my individuality. Better rot in the windowless tomb, to which there is no door but the red mouth of the pallid worm, than to wear the jeweled collar of a god.

- Robert Green Ingersoll

It is like most other ancient books – a mingling of falsehood and truth, of philosophy and folly – all written by men, and most of the men only partially civilized. Some of its laws are good – some infinitely barbarous. None of the miracles related were performed. . . . Take out the absurdities, the miracles, all that pertains to the supernatural – all the cruel and barbaric laws – and to the remainder I have no objection. Neither would I have for it any great admiration.

- Robert Ingersoll

Doing My Part To Piss Off The Religous Reich

- Seen On A Button

Screw God, I'm worshipping Jill.

- Shelby

The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshipped anything but himself.

- Sir Richard Francis Burton

Lord, proect me from your followers!

- Some Button I Saw Once

The beauty of religious mania is that it has the power to explain everything. Once God (or Satan) is accepted as the first cause of everything which happens in the mortal world, nothing is left to chance...logic can be happily tossed out the window.

- Stephen King

"Now if you send just a dollar or two, there's not a hell of a lot I can do for you. If you want to see heaven's door, make out a check for $500 or more. Send me your money!"

- Suicidal Tendencies

He is Allah, (the) One. The Self-Sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need, He neither eats nor drinks. He begets not, nor was He begotten; And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him.

- The Noble Qur'An (112:1-4)

Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep forever.

- Thomas Jefferson

I have examined all the known superstitions of the word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth.

- Thomas Jefferson

Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon than the Word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind; and, for my part, I sincerely detest it as I detest everything that is cruel.

- Thomas Paine

the same people wrote the bible that thought the world was flat.

- Unknown

If God did not exist, it would be necessary for man to invent him.

- Voltair
/***************/

ajmer

November 8th, 2003, 02:58 AM

Dr. Nashier:

I really appreciate your advice but this is one of the problems of this age. Far too many of us have come to be believe that one has to be always "politically correct".

I can tell you that so many of us are not speaking their own conscience just because they might step out of the status quo. I and I am sure you see it everyday in life. I also think that so many people believe in God just because they think that this is the "right" thing to do. Many of them don't look for any logic in their belief.

It is very obvious that we can go on and on discussing this topic. I am doing it because where else can I find such open minded and intellectual people to speak my mind to.

I don't want to name people here because most certainly I may leave some of them out but I have the highest regards for all the people here on this discussion and even more for those more experienced than me because I know I may just learn a few things from them.

Thanks.

-ajmer

jitendersingh

November 9th, 2003, 11:03 PM

Dear All,

Probably the most complex armour has been fired by Balraj Bhai. Thanks for giving the most of the headache!

Problem is the reading such one liners are very difficult to get along, as everybody interprets these their own way. Another thing I'd mention is that most of the Godly literature has been contributed and dominated by believers, who never lokked into the matters critically as Bhai Ajmer has stated. Also the world has been dominated by hard liners so much that even a critical thinker like Copernicus was hanged just because of presenting a scientific thought that sun is the centre of the solar system.

Ajmer Bhai, it is very easy to blame others, but very difficult to imrove yourself. And the spirit of the debate is voilated in the blame game. The best way is to put your thoughts up, and try to get what the others want to say. Here no one is going to take your space.

Also, everybody know what they are saying, whether they are right or wrong, and whether what they do is right or wrong. So, this should not be a cause of concern in the debate. If you are convinced of your views, go away with it. But when we are having a discussion whatever other say is as important as whatever we think.

Coming to the discussion, the point you put that-
"Far too many of us have come to be believe that one has to be always "politically correct"."
It is an inherent nature of human that they tend to convince others rather than convince themselves. The day they'll start convincing themselves will be the day when one will get to know the thrue value of the human life.

jagmohan

November 10th, 2003, 03:34 PM

Dear Friends,

As rightly pointed out by many of you this is a very sensitive issue. It is difficult to convince others of existence of God or otherwise.

Let me try to put my thoughts in words and see whether I believe in God or not. It is not easy to answer this Question in the first place. More difficult would be to convince others of His existence or otherwise. By doing so I get one important answer and that is 'Not to impose my belief on others'.

I don't believe that God is a Devi or Devtaa or a superforce that can do what ever has been attributed to Him in the 'Epics' of which ever religion. I also don't believe in stories that have been attributed to Gods. Those I consider to be 'poetic Justice', if at all.

But I do believe in a 'Power'. May be others call this power by names such as Nature, God, Allah, Ram, Christ etc etc. This power is refered to by some as 'Destiny', 'Faith' and 'Karma' as well.

I believe that if I follow some basic principles in life, I shall be on the right side of this 'Power'. These basic principles have been written earlier in my posts and even Budh Bhai Saheb and others have refered to in the present thread.

I think the earliest man on this earth considered a ferocious bird or a large animal or lightening for that matter as God. Some one or thing that was to be feared. May be, and I say this with a lot of care, that is how the image of an Almighty persona came to be attributed with God.

Here is an example. Imagine Donkeys grazing in a jungle. How would the mind of a donkey perceive a super donkey to be? I am sure the donkey will think that a 'Super Donkey' will have two heads, huge eyes and many legs, etc etc. That is exactly how man perceived God to be and so we have our Devi-Devta's with umpteen number of heads and arms. The rest of the stories have been attributed to them by our Brahmin friends and what ever was missing even after that, the modern day God-men/women have monopolised Gods. And since 99% of the people are any thing but honest in their lives, there is a growing need for 'Yatras' and 'Pilgrimages'. SAARE SAAL JHOOTH BOLO, CHHORI KARO, APNO KO PARESHAN KARO AUR EK BAR KAHO 'JAI MATA DI', SAARE PAAP DHUL GYE. No I don't believe in these Gods.

I believe in a conscience that is inside me which tells me exactly and in much advance whether what I am going to do or doing is correct or not. Whatever this is: 'Mann' or 'Antaratma', is my true guide. Call it God, call it nature, how does it matter. If I do Good, Good will come my way. If I help others, others will help me. The key here is ME. I have to make sure that this ME is right. If this ME can be controlled, then you have realised the truth. Give it any name. 'Cause and Effect'!!

I beg apologies if I have confused the already enlightened members of this site.

Allow me to quote one of my grandparents. May be my sisters and daughters on this site would not like the language but then to prove a point I have to be verbatum. During rainy season when we children used to make a lot of noise and disturb the 'Dada', he used to shout. "Re so len dyo chhori C*** kyo. Aik te iss RAM ki issi tissi ho ri hai arr upar te tharii bebe gud ri sai ke". What I am trying to say is that JATS traditionally have never believed in Gods in the manner the pandits would have wanted us to. Our forefathers have always believed in 'Karma'. Do your duty.

Regards,

Lt Col JS Malik (Retd)

uday

November 10th, 2003, 05:00 PM

Very true !!

Lt Col Jagmohan Malik (Retd) (Nov 10, 2003 05:04 a.m.):
Dear Friends,
I believe in a conscience that is inside me which tells me exactly and in much advance whether what I am going to do or doing is correct or not. Whatever this is: 'Mann' or 'Antaratma', is my true guide. Call it God, call it nature, how does it matter. If I do Good, Good will come my way. If I help others, others will help me. The key here is ME. I have to make sure that this ME is right. If this ME can be controlled, then you have realised the truth. Give it any name. 'Cause and Effect'!!

Regards,

Lt Col JS Malik (Retd)

dahbal

November 11th, 2003, 01:03 PM

Hi Everybody,

This topic is going quite complex and confusing now.Everybody have their own views regarding existance of God ,own faith & belief.A few people are telling in way of scientifically and others in spiritual way.

So what is the final conclusion of this discussion on God?

-Balraj Dahiya

scsheorayan

November 11th, 2003, 03:47 PM

For the final answer you have to ask yourself. Answer this question who are you ? Just this body or is there some thing more than that. You may not get your answer in one day but sooner or later every one gets his/her answer.

anilkc

November 11th, 2003, 09:24 PM

discussion abt GOD has been going on for centuries and this forum just proves god willing it will go on for many more centuries.
malika sherawat topic has more postings than this one...draw ur own conclusions.

jitendersingh

November 11th, 2003, 10:39 PM

Hi Balraj,

The nature of this topic has brought all of us to this discussion board. Issue itself is very complex. Still the efforts of Budhji in summarizing will be quite benefitial for you if you are not interested in going throught each posting.

For the final conclusion, I may really have varying thoughts from others, but I'll stick to my version. But still I'll be dishonest to myself if I say I have not benefitted from the discussion with the people having thought with contradiction to my views, Discussing with them I was even able to clarify my stance to myself in a more resolute way.

Okay, for me:
1) Nature holds the supreme power! (Some have named this supreme power the name of God, although I still treat it to be a faith of them. Hence, God is a fictitious entity for me atleast.) For me nature holds the supreme designation because, it does not discriminate amongst the entities of the universe, Works according to predefined laws, has been able to reason all the events and happenings.

2) Conscience is built up in the environment you are grown up! Hence, your conscience reflects the environment you are brought up.

3) Do something not for the fear of something, but because it will give you peace of mind. You won't have to run all the way for the search of the peace.

4) Don't convince others with your acts, look for what your conscience says.

5) Don't draw rules for others. Impose them on self only.

6) It is the inner lamp which must be lit up to really light up your life. As you yourself are Computer Engineer, you can get what importance the logic of the program has.

7) Mankind is the ultimate goal of society. If a religion/soceity has principles which voilates the norms of mankind, it should not be accepted.

8) I haven't found any words of hate in any religious book, whether it is for the hindus, muslims, sikhs, christians, or budhdhists. Problem lies with the people who milks the benefits out of the religion.

Again these conventions are not for you these are for me. First convince yourslef whether these are okay for you and then go by them. Take these as mere my summarised results.

Again you are grown up, take out your brains and ask him what is going on here and where you stand.

dahbal

November 12th, 2003, 03:47 PM

Thanks everybody for lots of nice spiritual and touching information.

I know everybody have their own ways of faith and belief in God.

So thanks a lot again.

-Balraj

devdahiya

November 25th, 2006, 10:41 AM

Look around you and observe things carefully.He[the almighty created water,food grains,fruits,greenary,fellow beings,animals,birds,a unique identity for all of us,beautiful universe with perfact balance.Sun,moon,mountains,air,rains....so on and so forth.How it happened in such a maticulous way? Who made it possible for us....Things don't happen in auto mode.There are feelings,dreams,emotions and what not.I have a strong belief that yes he exists and exists in every living thing.

netrapalsingh

November 25th, 2006, 12:22 PM

Ye Ek Aisa Sawal Hai Jiska Jawab Kisike Pass Bhee Nahi Hai Opinion Bhoot Hai Is Bare Leken Kya Koi Dava Kar Sakta Hai Nahi Kar Sakta
Haa Agar Aakash Hai, Dharti Hai, Hawa Hai, To Kaha Se Ayee Kya
Iska Jawab Kisi Ke Pass Hai Nature Kya Hai. Koi Nahi Bata Sakta Hai

Ek Chota Sa Sawal Kitne Jatlanders Bata Sate Hai Apne Dada Ke
Dada Ka Nam Meree Satvee Peedhee Tak Ka To Mujhe Pata Hai.
Lekin Hamara Vajood Hai Or Kai Peedhiyo Tak Se Hai Jiska Koi
Praman Kisi Ke Bhee Pass Nahi Hai Par Hai To Sahee. Bas Yahee
God Hai Ek Shakti Hai Jise Sabhi Mante Hai. Ek Sradha Hai Kisike
Bhee Pratee Hosaktee Hai Chahe Wo Koi Patthar Ke Prati Ho
Chahe Kisi Moorti Ke Prati.

Is Sansaar Agar Sankat Ke Samay Koi Bhee Aapke Kaam Ata Hai
To Wahi Aapko Chahe Kuch Pal Ke Liyee Hee Bhagwaan Lagne Lagta
Hai. Agar Koi Aapka Ahit Karta Hai To Wahi Aapko Rakshas Lagne
Lagta Hai.

Mera Manna Hai Agar Aap Acha Kam Karte Hai To Bhagwan Aap Hee
Hai. Agar Koi Shakti Hai To Har Roop Har Wastoo Me Hai
dhanna Jat Kee Kahani To Sabne Suni Hoti Usne Patthar Me
Se Bhagwan Ko Nikal Liya Tha.

Netra......

kharub

November 25th, 2006, 06:51 PM

kharub

November 25th, 2006, 06:55 PM

" I have seldom met an intellegent person, whose views were not narrowed by religion"

James Buchanan - US President 1857-1881

"My earlier views on the unsoundness of Christian scheme of salvation have become clearer and stronger with advancing years"

Abraham Lincon - US President 1861-1865

"Fear is the mother of all Gods
Nature does everthing spontaneously by herself, without their meddling"

Lucretius - Roman Philosopher: 99-50 BC

cooljat

November 26th, 2006, 10:19 AM

devdahiya

November 26th, 2006, 10:24 AM

What a wonderful topic it was....I wonder why this k
one last query for the atheists.....just tell me what is the very thing that spark life in a body & run its systems???

Thats it!

Rock on
Jit

They will promptly say...NATURE.....But my rider is What is Nature and who created it...because there is a creator of every thing...any takers...?

devdahiya

November 26th, 2006, 10:44 AM

I do not believe in God if that means a supreme being dictating everything on Earth... Nature is the creator and the destroyer ,.. nature is all there is ....... religion is a spiritual self relief for human beings .. its is a means of mental comfort ... nothing like God or a superior being exists ....

The evil prevalent in this world is a clear example ..... Kids being raped .. innocents being killed in their hundreds ... people dying without food ....

The evil people live good healthyand long lives and the good souls die in misery ... this points to something totally contrary to the existence fo God

In the words of Greek Philosophers: (Eplcurus : 341-271 BC)

Is there really a God ? Lets assume there is one such superme being .. all powerful and just ............. then why the evil prevails in this world ??

Is God willing to prevent evil but not able to ??
Then he is not Omnipotent (Invincible, All powerful) .....

Is he able but not willing ??
Then he is malevolent (Vicious, Wiked) .....

Is God both able and willing ?
Then whence cometh evil .....

and If he is neither able nor willing .........
Then why call him GOD

Religion is a regarded by the common peopel as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful ...... (Cenesa: 4-65 AD)

1] When i look up into the sky,i see a million stars...our sun is just one.It makes me realise that we are just SPECKS in the universe.It gives me reason to believe that there is something somewhere,that i can turn to.Therefore,i pray.

President of India..APJ ABDUL KALAM......[In times of India dated 26th Nov 2006]

2] God is great leveller.He took my parents but he gave me my children---Balance restored...God is sacular.Sometimes i speak to God in half-Arabic,Half Hinglish...He never stops loving you.In the final analysis,ALLAH takes care of every thing.

Shah Rukh Khan
Actor...........................[TOI dated 26Nov2006]

This world is a mixture of every thing.....Bad ,good,evil,kind.......Otherwise who will know the difference...Some are happy others are suffering...It is all with a purpose and not by default.Nothing on this earth moves without a reson.We interpret these events as consequence of action but who gave the action and who is controlling and guiding these motions? Things do not happen without a logic..please explain logically as to how this action is monitored and who is the monitor..? Please don't say nature as...Nature is God i suppose.

balrajsejwal

November 26th, 2006, 02:06 PM

accordings to teachings of saint(sant) of anytime, there is god and we
can met him in our own life and god is WORD*
WORD- the dynamic power of god that creates, enlivens and sustains the
universe and which in proper conditions may be experiencced by the ear
of the soul.
WORD IS SAID TO BE SHABD(HINDI), NAAD(SANSKRIT), KALMA(URDU,
FAARSI),WORD(ENGLISH)
1)THE BEGINNING AND THE END OF ALL CREATION IS SHABD-(SWAMI JI MAHARAJ
IN 18tH CEN)
2)CREATION DISSOLUTION AND RE-CREATION,ALL IS DONE BY SHABD-(GURU AMAR
DAS IN 16tH CEN)
3) ALL FOURTEEN REALMS ARE WITHIN KALMA--(SULTAN BAHU UNKNOWN)
4)ALL THINGS ARE MADE BY WORD AND WITHOUT WORD WAS ANYTHING MADE AND
THAT WAS MADE(JOHN 1:3)
5) IN THE STARTING THERE WAS WORD, WORD CREATES EVERYTHING AND WORD
LAST FOREVER(JOHN 1:5)
THESE ARE SOME TEACHINGS WHICH I BOUGHT IN LIGHT, THERE ENDLESS
TEACHINGS ON THIS, FOR MORE ONCE HAS TO READ TEACHINGS OF ANY TRUE
SAINT OF ANYTIME WHICH TELLS US THE WAY TO FIND GOD

kharub

November 26th, 2006, 09:17 PM

What a wonderful topic it was....I wonder why this kinda incredible topics r hardly discussed nowdays on Jatland...why? why? why??

Anyways as far as my belief concerns....then I wud say Im spritual not ritual, I dont belive in murtipooja & othe rituals but I have a firm faith in Souls & supersoul!!

Religion and God is a spiritual concept .. a sort of comforting concept ... it gives us a vent to leave things to unseen forces so that we dont stress ourselves mentally .. its just an escape from the reality .. and not the reality itself

Btw, God is beyond anybody's imagination....u can just feel it inside ... It lies in everybody as SOUL!

Exactly this is what God is ........ IMAGINATION .... what is Soul ?? .. Science is very advanced .. can even do heart transplants ...... nobody has ever found anything like a soul ... what you call soul is emotional intelligence .. thats what it is

Indeed is god is like Electricity, Air, Emotions which u can never see but just feel it.

one last query for the atheists.....just tell me what is the very thing that spark life in a body & run its systems???

Nature .. everything in nature is made up of atoms .. and life too .. life is just a very advanced and highly sophisticated machine .. it has its own intellegence which increases with time and as more and more data is input in the system .. To start of with this machine takes that spark from the host system .. i.e the mothers womb .. and once it has its own fuel combustion cycle fully in progress ...... it is self sustainable ...........

Thats it!

Rock on
Jit

Let me aks you something just answer the questions asked by the Greek gentleman stated in my previous post and i will accept the existance of God ...

If there is an all seeing, preserver of the good , destroyer of the evil ... creator of all ........ Why is there so much evil?? Specially against innocent creatures like your kids .. why do Nazi Criminals live to a ripe age of 100 in all the worldly luxuries ... whereas innocent kids get raped or bombed to death ??

Where does that supereme being goes then ??? Maybe he was on lunch break when all that was happening and missed it ??

Let me ask you a question ........ you give me an answer ..... If God creates us all and we are run by a supreme being .. then why do we need fuel to run our machine ??

Why do we need to eat food ........ we should be magically charged up and have an infinite supply fo energy .. if God can give us life .. why can't he sustain it ?? Why do we have to cater for those needs ??

kharub

November 26th, 2006, 09:30 PM

1] When i look up into the sky,i see a million stars...our sun is just one.It makes me realise that we are just SPECKS in the universe.It gives me reason to believe that there is something somewhere,that i can turn to.Therefore,i pray.

President of India..APJ ABDUL KALAM......[In times of India dated 26th Nov 2006]

Dahiya Ji .. this means that we imagine and believe something is there .. there is no logical explanation that, that something really exists .... Its called an escape route ...... To escape the unknowns because there are so many .. i wish to choose that there is one who knows all those unkowns and i resign my fate to him .. the Allmighty .......... This does not prove that there is anything like God .. just that we choose to believe in one becasue we feel so small and helpless in this vast universe

2] God is great leveller.He took my parents but he gave me my children---Balance restored...God is sacular.Sometimes i speak to God in half-Arabic,Half Hinglish...He never stops loving you.In the final analysis,ALLAH takes care of every thing.

Shah Rukh Khan
Actor...........................[TOI dated 26Nov2006]

Since when has Shahrukh Khan become famous for his intellect ...... I though the best he does is to sing and dance in the movies ..... I donot consider him to be an intellectual .. let alone be an authority in any matter ....

This world is a mixture of every thing.....Bad ,good,evil,kind.......Otherwise who will know the difference...Some are happy others are suffering...It is all with a purpose and not by default.Nothing on this earth moves without a reson.We interpret these events as consequence of action but who gave the action and who is controlling and guiding these motions? Things do not happen without a logic..please explain logically as to how this action is monitored and who is the monitor..? Please don't say nature as...Nature is God i suppose.

But the whole concept of God relates to the supreme being ...... if he is the supreme being then why does evil exist ....... if evil exists then that means he is not fully in charge .. and if he is not in charge .. he is not God

What is the purpose of a 4 year old kid being raped and killed by a sick F***ing animal ??
Please tell me ......... i would like to know and understand that purpose ...... ???

Nature is not GOD ......... two very different things

Life (everything) is a calculation ........ Universe is a calculation ... every human being is a calculation .. when on is born a certain calculation results in it and then whatever one does he/she does add more variables, and the enviornment around also inputs in that calculation .... this calculation is the fate or the story of ones life ........
Astronomy is based on reading those calculations ........

devdahiya

November 26th, 2006, 10:11 PM

But the whol concept fo God is the supreme being ...... is he is the supreme being then why does evil exist ....... if evil exists then that means he is not fully in charge .. and if he is notin charge .. he is not God

What is the purpose of a 4 year old kid being raped and killed by a sick F***ing animal ??
Please tell me ......... i would liek to know and understand that purpose ...... ???

Nature is not GOD ......... two very different things

Life (everything) is a calculation ........ Universe is a calculation ... every human being is a calculation .. when on is born a certain calculation results in it and then whatever one does he/she does add more variables, and the enviornment around also inputs in that calculation .... this calculation is the fate or the story of ones life ........
Astronomy is based on reading those calculations ........

Vish,you are successful in generating enough interest in the topic of immense importance/interest.I will try explain my point of view in best possible logical manner there by allowing you and other members to deduce as to how far my arguement could dispel the genuine doubts brought out by you. Let me give a serious try dear.

GOD is a creator,nurturer,care taker,equilizer...and controler.....As what i percieve him to be.

Creator: Self explainatory as he generates life.
Nurturer: He gave us brains,Stomach,Limbs,Heart and above all......Plenty of air to breath,Plenty of water to drinnk and wash our selves,Earth to generate food for living beings,sky to balance the universe[what a perfect balance dear] and Energy[fire if you can say]..in other words all basic requirements were met by him.
Care taker: He could not be every where and hence he gave us parents,sisters,brothers,friends and fellow human beings to share our burdons,love,happiness,griefs and aspirations.In addition he gave us fruits,vegetables,various spicies of birds,animals,plants with medical value,jungles,mountains,riversand what not to make our lives enterprising and colourful.
Equilizer: He created evil to keep human being under check and under pressure so that there is a debate and struggle in the entire population to understand the difference between the evil and good and to work relentlessly[without a break] to keep a livable atmosphere around.If this struggle was not there then life could become monotonous and comparisons[neccessary for developement and progress] could not have been possible.Also sooner or later he punishes the evil and oppressors and punishes them with compound interest.Ofcourse it is not possible for him to catch the hand of every oppressor or a killer while they murder or rape people but for sure they paid the price.May be..may be, those who became the victims of these brutalities had a future well planned for them by the almighty[you and me both are not so sure on this count]

Controler: No doubt with this i suppose as he kept the last laugh with him.let the human beings do anything but the judgement is reserved up there and we all have to face him and his final judgement.

I hope i could do a little justice to dispel your doubts...else the debate is still on bhai..we will still try....Thanks for engaging me in mind stretching exercise as i am feeling more stronger about his being around.

arunshamli

November 26th, 2006, 11:15 PM

kharub

November 26th, 2006, 11:41 PM

Swami Dayanad Saraswati said about the God that Supreme Being does not mean he can do anything or everything. For example he can not create another God or become ignorant, commit sins such as theft, adultery and the like. It really means that God does not require the least assistance from any person in all His works such as Creation, Sustenance and Dissolution of the Universe, and administration of Divine Justice. In other words, He does all His works with His own infinite power.

God and Soul both are eternal and are independent. God does not and can not control our actions. We are all free to do anything we want and he will not stop us. It is not one of his characteristics. Evil exists but it is not because God created it, it is because we are free to choose what we want to be good or evil.

And What does religion has anything to do with the God? You can be a Hindu or Christian and still do not believe in the God. To believe in the God you do not have to belong to a religion. In my view they are completely independent things.

No rapist/killer live happy or healthy life. They always live in constant fear of being caught. If not why Daud Ibrahim is living outside India? Why he has to live in a hide? And look what has happened to Laden? How Saddam was found in a hole? Is this a happy life?

There is more happiness in the world than the evil. There are more innocent people than murderers or rapists. This world is really a wonderful place. and I do not see any reason not to believe in the God. :)

George Bush is living a healthy and happy life and the amount of money he has I think he will continue to do so ... Linden Johnson was filty rich and led a confortable life ..... and Stalin too lived very comfortably .. so did Mao Zedong ..... Queen Victoria lived a lavish and content life ....... and the list is endless .....

What substantial evidence do you have other than these phylosophical statements ... ??

Give me one evidence one hard fact ???

What divine justice is served when a kid gets raped ?? People burned alive ??
Please explain ??

I would also like to believe in something great and invincible ......... but the only thing invincible is matter .... and matter is what we are all made up of .. there is no soul .. but emotional intellegence ...

Now the difference between our argument is that i am taking about factual things and you about concepts .......... can you substantiate your concepts please

arunshamli

November 27th, 2006, 12:21 AM

Nature is not GOD ......... two very different things

So you believe there are two different things. God and Nature.

What is nature and what is God? What are their functions?

arunshamli

November 27th, 2006, 12:33 AM

What substantial evidence do you have other than these phylosophical statements ... ??

Give me one evidence one hard fact ???

What divine justice is served when a kid gets raped ?? People burned alive ??
Please explain ??

I thought I replied to this question in my earlier post. may be you did not notice it. Let me say it again.

God does not and can not control our actions. We are all free to do anything we want and he will not stop us. It is not one of his characteristics. Evil exists but it is not because God created it, it is because we are free to choose what we want to be good or evil.

devdahiya

November 27th, 2006, 12:57 AM

kharub

November 27th, 2006, 11:14 PM

So you believe there are two different things. God and Nature.

What is nature and what is God? What are their functions?

What we refer to as "Nature" is our surroundings, our enviornment .. things that keep us alive and the creator and sustainer of life

Nature refers to all the different thing sthat have come into existence by different composition of the same matter - the building block for everything the atom ...

Like if we have some clay .. we can mould it into different forms .. in a similar way matter combines in different ways to make different things ... all such things thus formed are collectively called "Nature"

So though nature is the creator and the sustainer - it is none of those .. matter creates life and differrent compositions of the same matter provides the means to sustain that life ....

The concept of "God" on the other hand means a supreme being who creates, sustains, preserves, judges and punishes .......

Matter is all of it except the Judging and Punishing part ....... matter does not judge and punish ... there is no need to pray to the matter ...
This is the difference between God & Nature (matter)

The concept of God means one who overseas us all the time .. he can see our deeds and then reward us as such .. if we pray to him our miseries will be over and we will be rewarded by riches and health ....... All of which is totally absurd and ridicluos

Its like saying that the stone can judge the building .. if teh building is not good the stone will bring it down ... if the building is good the stone will reward it with even more beauty ..........

Nobody punishes or rewards or oversees ....... matter makes life .. matter provides the means to sustain and thats all that matter is capable of .....

kharub

November 27th, 2006, 11:22 PM

I thought I replied to this question in my earlier post. may be you did not notice it. Let me say it again.

God does not and can not control our actions. We are all free to do anything we want and he will not stop us. It is not one of his characteristics. Evil exists but it is not because God created it, it is because we are free to choose what we want to be good or evil.

Evil exists because God did not create it ....... so "God" is not allmighty .. he is not incharge of everything ... there is somebody other than him also that can create ......... so what is the point of such a God who is not Omnipotent .... if there is a competing power .. then why call him the Allmighty .. because you just said in your own words that he is not allmighty .... faith blinds people ,, as i can clearly see ....... it is a tool to mislead and exploit

We are free to do everythng that we want .. God does not control our actions .... so a child sex abuser chooses to be so .. i agree .. maybe that is the case ... but what about the child that got raped and killed ... did that child choose his/her fate as well ...... or does you God not care about the choice of the helpless .. but only the strong have a right of choice ..... How flawed is you logic and argument .....

Why do you not answer the questions i asked you before ?

Why ??

I am giving you a counter argument for what you asked me .. why are you evading my questions ??

kharub

November 27th, 2006, 11:43 PM

Vish,you are successful in generating enough interest in the topic of immense importance/interest.I will try explain my point of view in best possible logical manner there by allowing you and other members to deduce as to how far my arguement could dispel the genuine doubts brought out by you. Let me give a serious try dear.

GOD is a creator,nurturer,care taker,equilizer...and controler.....As what i percieve him to be.

Equiliser : Tell me what good deed can equilise the raping and killing of a Kid ... do you really think something can equilise it ???

Controler: Controller of what ?? People being killdėd ?? Controller of George Bush ?? Stalin ?? Mao ........... controller of what ??? Please tell me

Matter creates life and the means to sustain it .. and thats all there is to this world

Creator: Self explainatory as he generates life.
Nurturer: He gave us brains,Stomach,Limbs,Heart and above all......Plenty of air to breath,Plenty of water to drinnk and wash our selves,Earth to generate food for living beings,sky to balance the universe[what a perfect balance dear] and Energy[fire if you can say]..in other words all basic requirements were met by him.

Human beings can create organs in a lab ... they are like the parts of a machine .. nothing more .. no God is needed anymore to make life .. we can do it ourselves ... So there goes your creator argument and nurturer argument too ... fire is a not made by god but is resulted as a release of energy during a physical or chemical process

Care taker: He could not be every where and hence he gave us parents,sisters,brothers,friends and fellow human beings to share our burdons,love,happiness,griefs and aspirations.In addition he gave us fruits,vegetables,various spicies of birds,animals,plants with medical value,jungles,mountains,riversand what not to make our lives enterprising and
colourful.

My brother and sister came in this world because my parents decioded to ... if God brought them to thsi world then why can't he bring all those aborted feoteses to thsi earth as well .. why are can life be aborted .. if God brings it ?? Please no more emotional and phylosophical arguments .. some logic please

Equilizer: He created evil to keep human being under check and under pressure so that there is a debate and struggle in the entire population to understand the difference between the evil and good and to work relentlessly[without a break] to keep a livable atmosphere around.If this struggle was not there then life could become monotonous and comparisons[neccessary for developement and progress] could not have been possible.Also sooner or later he punishes the evil and oppressors and punishes them with compound interest.
I donot know of Stalin or Mao paying any compound interest .. do you ??
Ofcourse it is not possible for him to catch the hand of every oppressor or a killer while they murder or rape people but for sure they paid the price.
If its is not possibel for him to see and control everything .. he is not Allmighty and all observant .... He is not GOD
May be..may be, those who became the victims of these brutalities had a future well planned for them by the almighty[you and me both are not so sure on this count]

hahahahah .... thats funny ... kids get raped and killed to generate a debate and highlight the good ..... Thsi is called bling faith and belief and this what religion really is ... a blind faith is a concept which has no foundation or logic .. but such is the nature of blind faith ... and if indeed you have bling faith then no body can help you change your mind ... but I will put my the best logical argument forward to counter you. If God is allmighty he should have created just good and then we donot have to worry about evil at all .. if evil is so bad why did he create it ... why do we need to know about it ........ Did you give your kids drugs ,, heroin or crack to teach then that drugs are bad ....... No i dont think so .. you tried to keep them away form those things so that they dont even know about them .. let alone experiment with them ........... If your God indeed exists then he is Sick and wicked to put evil amongst us just to generate a debate ...........

Controler: No doubt with this i suppose as he kept the last laugh with him.let the human beings do anything but the judgement is reserved up there and we all have to face him and his final judgement.

I hope i could do a little justice to dispel your doubts...else the debate is still on bhai..we will still try....Thanks for engaging me in mind stretching exercise as i am feeling more stronger about his being around.

And I feel ever so strong that God is a creation of an unsure ... weak .. mind .. who needed support and something greater than him (man) to rest on becasue his own existence in this great universe is so insignificant ... He needed a greater force to blame or account for the things beyond his control .. and later on Smart people realised his insecurity and exploited this concept in order to opress him and rule him ... to enslave him and his mind ..

arunshamli

November 28th, 2006, 05:59 AM

*************************

raj_rathee

November 28th, 2006, 08:50 AM

As always, a very interesting subject, and, as expected, the level of debate
is annoyingly lame. Lots of blind people arguing with each other about the
beauty of the world. :rolleyes:

All you folks...at the very least could you please stop trying to be some
sort of authority on the subject. Whether or not there is some authority
on this issue is itself questionable, let alone all these authorities on Jatland.

Everything is hypothetical. Any discussion on God must necessarily be a
curious search for the answers rather than egoistic assertions of the truth.

Since that is not something that can be expected here, all I would
recommend is just to try to read as much as possible on this subject
with an open yet critical mind. Perhaps something might make sense. At the
very least you'd be spending some time learning from people who
have actually spent some serious time probing for answers.

I have been reading a lot about spirituality recently, especially as it
related to Vedic point of view. Haven't found any answers (and frankly don't
expect to either), but there is good material for thought.

I just recently read some very positive reviews on a book
"Code Name God" by a desi guy (inventor of the laser). I hope
to read it in the near future. If anyone already has read this, let me know
how they found it.

Here is the amazon.com link:

http://www.amazon.com/Code-Name-Spiritual-Odyssey-Science/dp/0824522818/sr=8-1/qid=1164683866/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-8253904-2663818?ie=UTF8&s=books

devdahiya

November 28th, 2006, 09:08 AM

raj_rathee

November 28th, 2006, 09:17 AM

Manne kaal taddkehein Yaad krya thha rajje arr sochie," Yo raajje kadde gaya bhagwaan?"...Arr dekh krishmma....Yu aa gya mharra Rajje..! Bhai manno na manno..BHAGWAAN Laathhi BARR ka SEI.........! Aur Rajje ke haal-chaal..?

Ha ha :D

Chacha bas aapka ashirwaad bana raho, haal-chaal tae aape theek ho ja sae.
Hum Jataan ke Bhagwaan tae mahare bade shayane e hon sae.

kharub

November 28th, 2006, 05:02 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/space/20061127/sc_space/galacticbabyboominfluencedlifeonearth

pnauhwar21

December 2nd, 2006, 05:27 AM

Exactly this is what God is ........ IMAGINATION .... what is Soul ?? .. Science is very advanced .. can even do heart transplants ...... nobody has ever found anything like a soul ... what you call soul is emotional intelligence .. thats what it is

Kharub bro..if there is nothing like soul, why do we die. Why can't we be fixed or refurbished just like a machine. When we die, why our heart or eyes remain alive only for a certain time and need to be donated within a specific time. If they are just normal parts similar to computer part, why can't they be revived even after we so called die?

Even cement walls are made up of atoms, similarly all so called non-living things then how are we different from them if we don't have something called as soul or pran. Don't tell me its just the way our atomic structure is setup.

Secondly, if there is nothing called soul, how come you find people who remeber their past births. All such incidents are not fluke, there have been lot of such incidents and been verified too. Souls are the one who preserve all the memories within themselves. Now, whether there is a supersoul is a different question as there is no direct way to verify until and unless you die. But will talk about it later or not if you prove that there can't be a soul and its just a figment of imagination.

kharub

December 2nd, 2006, 07:39 AM

Bhai Prashant ......... my conviction is that Human body is just a sophisticated machine ... we already have the capability to make certain parts of it ourselves and soon we will be able to make it in whole

Kharub bro..if there is nothing like soul, why do we die. Why can't we be fixed or refurbished just like a machine. When we die, why our heart or eyes remain alive only for a certain time and need to be donated within a specific time. If they are just normal parts similar to computer part, why can't they be revived even after we so called die?

The organs die out when the oxyzen supply in the blood is exhausted .... and soon we will live forever ........ have you heard of heart, kidney, liver transplants ?? How do you explain them ??
Because heart and liver are just like components of a machine and get replaced ... if every human being was created by god and unique you would not be able to exchange body parts and now they can even grow liver in labs ...
Science has advanced a lot and soon not only keep em alive .. body parts will be manufactured in labs ...... and its no science fiction dream , people are already working on it

Even cement walls are made up of atoms, similarly all so called non-living things then how are we different from them if we don't have something called as soul or pran. Don't tell me its just the way our atomic structure is setup.

Thats the way it is .... see from sand you can make a sand castle on the beach and the next wave can wash it away ...... you can use sand with concrete and make a building ....... and you can also make a silicon chip ... All made of sand ....... but incomparable in capacity and function

Similarly everything is made up of matter and the sophistication of any machine or composition is based on how matter combines .. what is the architecture ... the design ... the layout .. just like a sand castle and a silicon processing chip

Secondly, if there is nothing called soul, how come you find people who remeber their past births. All such incidents are not fluke, there have been lot of such incidents and been verified too. Souls are the one who preserve all the memories within themselves. Now, whether there is a supersoul is a different question as there is no direct way to verify until and unless you die. But will talk about it later or not if you prove that there can't be a soul and its just a figment of imagination.

Cmmon dont tell me you believe in rebirth stories ...... i find them hillarious .... and there is a way to explain them as well ........ electro-magnetic waves .... mind is a machine .. super super super computing machine .. capable of emotional intellegence and rational intellegence ...... and some rare persons brain catches these electromagnetic waves and deciphers them and narrates the story ........ its a brain malfunctioning or hyper functioning whatever you want to call it

Now i need evidence to prove there is a good ........ enough of me giving counter arguments

devdahiya

December 2nd, 2006, 07:56 AM

Bhai Prashant ......... my conviction is that Human body is just a sophisticated machine ... we already have the capability to make certain parts of it ourselves and soon we will be able to make it in whole

Cmmon dont tell me you believe in rebirth stories ...... i find them hillarious .... and there is a way to explain them as well ........ electro-magnetic waves .... mind is a machine .. super super super computing machine .. capable of emotional intellegence and rational intellegence ...... and some rare persons brain catches these electromagnetic waves and deciphers them and narrates the story ........ its a brain malfunctioning or hyper functioning whatever you want to call it

Now i need evidence to prove there is a good ........ enough of me giving counter arguments

Vish nyu chahwei sei akk koe uss bhagwaan nei chah pe bulla ke biskutt khatta dikhawei.....Konya ho sakkti nyu tei.Arr ow aawei bi konya na tei ya duniya uss bicharre ka bakkal maangg degi.

Maan liya bhai bhagwaan-Shagwaan kuchh na ya duniya tei RAM bharosse chal rhi sei...ha..ha..ha..KILLKI @ RAM bharosse.

pnauhwar21

December 2nd, 2006, 09:18 AM

Bhai Prashant ......... my conviction is that Human body is just a sophisticated machine ... we already have the capability to make certain parts of it ourselves and soon we will be able to make it in whole

The organs die out when the oxyzen supply in the blood is exhausted .... and soon we will live forever ........ have you heard of heart, kidney, liver transplants ?? How do you explain them ??
Because heart and liver are just like components of a machine and get replaced ... if every human being was created by god and unique you would not be able to exchange body parts and now they can even grow liver in labs ...
Science has advanced a lot and soon not only keep em alive .. body parts will be manufactured in labs ...... and its no science fiction dream , people are already working on it

Cmmon dont tell me you believe in rebirth stories ...... i find them hillarious .... and there is a way to explain them as well ........ electro-magnetic waves .... mind is a machine .. super super super computing machine .. capable of emotional intellegence and rational intellegence ...... and some rare persons brain catches these electromagnetic waves and deciphers them and narrates the story ........ its a brain malfunctioning or hyper functioning whatever you want to call it

Now i need evidence to prove there is a good ........ enough of me giving counter arguments

Dear Vj..Don't be exhausted with giving counter arguments..after all its a big topic and the answers are coming from our super computing brain :o

You said organs die out when the oxyzen supply in the blood is exhausted. So, basically if we give back the oxygen supply, a dead person can come alive again. As per you its possible in future. Lets agree on this point for the moment. So, may be 100 years from now, no one can die. If somebody is hit by 20 bullets in his chest, no worries..doctors will replace his damaged organ, pump some oxygen and aloha!! he will be back on his legs..

So, with this logic and potential advancement in science, now the scientists should be able to make a robot as live as us. They will just pump some oxygen, assemble the manmade organs and a new being will be born without any need for reproduction. Is that true as per your logic? If yes, then you got the answer. Man himself will be god!!

As for rebirth stories, why do you find them hilarious? We have heard so many accounts all over the world which have been compiled by commendable phsycologists and not jokers. Even in India so many people have been able to identify a family far away from them without any linkage, they can tell each and everything about the house they have never seen at the age of 5 and you say its just some electromagnetic waves which were captured by their super-computing brains? And on what basis can you say that they are all false until and unless you have visited those people yourselves? A small account has happened with me too when I was just 2 yr old and used to scribble in script resembling south indian language.

Last but not the least, I totally agree that man has learnt a lot about his body and even I am surprised, that so many ailments can be fixed just by popping a pill or getting an injection but in no way can we have the ability to put Life in a dead person or a non-living person. You said brain has emotional intelligence - what exactly is that? We have sensory powers, we can dream and go into another world, we can meditate and levitate, we can speak. And why are we and any living being born through reproduction and not the way we build castles and silicon chip? If all this is just power of a supercomputing machine without soul, I find this far far more hilarious.

I am not exhausted with arguments on such an interesting topic btw :cool: so keep it coming

pnauhwar21

December 2nd, 2006, 09:57 AM

While we are discussing with our intellectual brains, go through this website I found : http://www.doesgodexist.org/ ..Some more good scientific logic to prove god exists..

devdahiya

December 2nd, 2006, 10:16 AM

G= Governor
O= Of
D+ Destiny

gaganjat

December 2nd, 2006, 11:16 AM

Question: God ! are u there?
Answer: Na betta I am m not here, I am in beshno debi

swati

December 2nd, 2006, 11:24 AM

Question: God ! are u there?
Answer: Na betta I am m not here, I am in beshno debi

i just wanna say onething GOD IS EVERYWHERE

jagmohan

December 2nd, 2006, 04:02 PM

"Those who can make you believe in absurdities can make you commit atrocities"

"This world will never know peace untill the last Politician has been strangled with the guts of the last Priest"

....so said Voltaire

kharub

December 2nd, 2006, 06:33 PM

You said organs die out when the oxyzen supply in the blood is exhausted. So, basically if we give back the oxygen supply, a dead person can come alive again. As per you its possible in future. Lets agree on this point for the moment. So, may be 100 years from now, no one can die. If somebody is hit by 20 bullets in his chest, no worries..doctors will replace his damaged organ, pump some oxygen and aloha!! he will be back on his legs..

Yes it will be possible ...... the revival of a body depends on the extent of damage also ......... a car completely wrecked in an accident is beyond repair ... but if the front bit is damaged it can be replaced ... and most of others things too ........ same goes for the human body ..... the repair depends on the extent of damage

So, with this logic and potential advancement in science, now the scientists should be able to make a robot as live as us. They will just pump some oxygen, assemble the manmade organs and a new being will be born without any need for reproduction. Is that true as per your logic? If yes, then you got the answer. Man himself will be god!!

There is nothing called God .......... man will just have the capacity to make its own spare parts .... because we can reapir a car does not stop the need for factory production ... i think reproduction will not cease to exist

As for rebirth stories, why do you find them hilarious? We have heard so many accounts all over the world which have been compiled by commendable phsycologists and not jokers. Even in India so many people have been able to identify a family far away from them without any linkage, they can tell each and everything about the house they have never seen at the age of 5 and you say its just some electromagnetic waves which were captured by their super-computing brains? And on what basis can you say that they are all false until and unless you have visited those people yourselves? A small account has happened with me too when I was just 2 yr old and used to scribble in script resembling south indian language.

start scribling anything on a piece of paper and it will surely resemble some language somewhere ..... ancient Eyptian as well ...... and can be well expalined by electro magnetic waves theory

Last but not the least, I totally agree that man has learnt a lot about his body and even I am surprised, that so many ailments can be fixed just by popping a pill or getting an injection but in no way can we have the ability to put Life in a dead person or a non-living person. You said brain has emotional intelligence - what exactly is that? We have sensory powers, we can dream and go into another world, we can meditate and levitate, we can speak. And why are we and any living being born through reproduction and not the way we build castles and silicon chip? If all this is just power of a supercomputing machine without soul, I find this far far more hilarious.

reproduction is nothing spectecular its just the process how these advanced bionic machines called living beings are made ..... its just another production process ...... highly sopisticated though ...... thinking, dreaming, logic, imagination has all to do with brains computing power

I am not exhausted with arguments on such an interesting topic btw :cool: so keep it coming

I meant why are you guys not putting forward any of concrete facts for so called Gods existence ...........

kharub

December 2nd, 2006, 06:35 PM

While we are discussing with our intellectual brains, go through this website I found : http://www.doesgodexist.org/ ..Some more good scientific logic to prove god exists..

These fanatic Christian Evangelists will go to any extent of lying and distortion of facts to prove that God does exist ........ because thats where they derive their power form

they do not convince me ......... they are the filth of our world

kharub

December 2nd, 2006, 06:40 PM

G= Governor
O= Of
D+ Destiny

Dahiya Ji ....... there is nothing called destiny

our life is based on calculations that we enter when we are concieved ..... and these calculations get fed by our enviornment too ..... thats what it is .. its not pre planned ...... its gets calculated and then acted upon during the course of our life

pnauhwar21

December 2nd, 2006, 11:05 PM

VJ..lets agree that we are advanced bionic machines and all our body parts get setup perfectly through an advanced reproduction process just like a car assembly line but we very well know that nothing is created out of thin air. And as per your logic, there is no difference between a living being and non-living being - they are just 2 separate processes. But whether its a huge plane or a small silicon chip, they are created through a process by man, they don't automatically get created within the nature. If man is also an advanced machine like them, there must be a creator of us too who has setup this environment, an assembly line system where 2 machines i.e. Man and Woman connect and a new machine is created. The nature is just a huge factory where various systems are present which we are free to use and change. And the one who has created all this for us is God for us. Hence proved that God exists..

pnauhwar21

December 3rd, 2006, 01:05 AM

kharub

December 3rd, 2006, 04:32 AM

kharub

December 3rd, 2006, 04:49 AM

Our system is similar to a computer system. We can fit a computer with best of harddisk, 2 gig of Ram, latest software but its useless until we run current into it. Similarly, even if scientists are able to create all human organs whether artificial or transplants from other human machines, the body would be useless until you enter the current viz. Soul inside it. The way we produce current/electricity, our souls are also created in a world beyond this where Chitragupt is the principal scientist.

Incorrect ....... I have already clarified this issue before as well .... The food we eat is the fuel that runs us .... in mothers womb we get fed this fuel by the mother ....... there is no need for soul for a current .... your conception on my diagram is flawed .... see now my argument is scientifically proven ...... and your's is a shot in the air

The way we have virus in the computer, we have virus in our ecosystem in the way of natural calamaties like hurricane, earthquake or man-made like bombings, rapes, etc.
We need to fight on our own by creating anti-virus for all these virus. When a virus spreads in a computer, it destroys good programs who have no fault of theirs, similarly virus in our system annihilates good people or even children who apparently don't have any fault. Until and unless, we create a great anti-virus system, we will have various viruses in the form of terrorists, rapists and murderers. When we pray to god, we sometimes get a new software or upgrade in our system depending on the availibility and need. All the process is transparent to us hence we keep on doubting on a higher force as we can't see it.

depending on the availability ?? so your God does not have an instant ready solution, he has to plan and produce solution beforehand and if he is run out of them and thus they are not availaible then you will not get the update .. not thats a risky bet ....... i'd rather find a more dependable supplier... than risking my system safety on such a god who cannot gurantee instant availability :D

Now this is a new argument ... thats much better .. something new to talk about. You were going quite well with the scientific theory .. just before you inserted the a non existent conceptual thing like GOD. No software gets updated by praying and not virus gets killed by praying ....... the Jews were praying god for sure to save their lives ... what happened to GOD then and the guys who got their throat slit in Iraq too were praying for their lifes ... but to no avail ........ There is no GOD mate ...... get that reality set in mind .. however hard it is to do ......

You can't even see current though you use it in almost everything you do. Similarly you can't see your soul but thats what drives your body. When your body grows old just like a computer, your soul needs a new body system. Those people in heaven regulate all this by selecting a new body for you. The souls who act as virus in our system, are eventually annhilated when we run anti-virus.

Thats a funny argument that soul needs a new body ..... sounds more like an African Witch doctor theory than a credible scientific one

Current can be scientifically proven and seen too when it creates sparks and for example when thunder strikes ... that light is nothing but current ... there is no soul ... its just an unproven imaginary concept and before it is proved no charge is valid even in law .... So its an invalid argument