Art of warfare

[anilkc]

The most recent war india fought is Kargil. The only idea I have on how the battles were fought is as depicted in the movie LoC. I am assuming it was "almost" correctly shown. I could not get the clarity from news media, so i am basing my assesment from what I saw in the movie. It seems the art of warfare (at least for Indian army) has not changed much from days of mahabharat and ramayan. Basically u try to position urself along the enemy lines and then charge with all guns blazing. Apart from minor tactical decisions on the field, its a mad rush. I could not get a feel of any stratagic planning to minimize the "cost".
If I am soldier on the front line, I should have a confidence that all possibilities have been considered and what i am being ordered to do is the best way. I have no military backgrnd, neither do I friends or family who could give me more indepth info, so I would like to get some thoughts on this from experts here why we dont seem to be "smart" military. Even as a ordinary civilian citizen, I should feel comfortable in the though that our brothers in the forces are not only well trained and well equiped, but are "smarter" than the enemy.

[birbal]

Anil,

Those who can analyze like you can never be soldiers. I am sure you may have read or seen on TV that US Army Research showed that in WWII majority of US soldiers did not fire a single bullet. The US army used to be draft based (non-volunteers forced to join army) and most of them could not become real soldiers. If you really think seriously, politicians and ruling elites in all country do not give a hoot for those who "die" for their country. Have you heard of a soldier son or daughter of a VIP in a volunteer army. The sad thing for me is that my district, Jhunjhunu, has provided more soldiers to the Indian army than any district in India (mainly Jats and Rajputs), and a large number of them have died in various wars including a lot in Kargil. They are declared 'Sahid' and speeches are made by bigwigs but you go and see the plight of their widows and you will feel why did they die? Who they were protecting?

[anilkc]

Birbal Sir,
I agree to a point on "Those who can analyze like you can never be soldiers.". There is a similar dialog in the movie LoC, "Agar behas karni hai to army kiyon join kari, lok sabha, rajya sabha ya koi aur sabha join kar lete".
I agree that u cannot think and fight at the same time. Soldiers can do the fighting, but someone else must do the "thinking" part. There must be an institution or body who takes all inputs and come out with a plan, which the soldier can then execute. I beleive on paper such a thing exists, but does it do what it is supposed to do, is a different Qs?
A soldier will not be able to fight effectively, if he has no confidence that the plan will work.
Soldier too can think (when he is not fighting) and give invaluable inputs from his experience.

There are volumes of documents on wars indulged in by the west. These are available to everyone in the world. The academic world do a lot of research on this and give usefull insight to the military.

Soldier to soldier Indian army may be better than even US, but in terms of strategy we are a big Zero.

I think the ex-servicemen have to take a lead in this matter. I hope to hear a lot more on this topic.

[anujkumar]

I also think the same, In one month Kargil War ~400 soldier died. Less than 100 American soldier died before Iraq collapsed. Technology seems to be one major factor.

[anilkc]

out of those 100, most of them died of accidents than faulty planning.

Anuj, Technology is definitely a problem. The bofors gun proved to be an excellent equipment in Kargil. We can buy the best guns but so can the enemy.

We need to have our own plan of attack and make machines to support that attack. Whats the use of the best gun, if we dont know where to aim it.

Probabily more than technology, its the knowledge of technology and the will to change war tactics according to technology thats lacking.

I dont beleive we had to sacrifice our best and bravest, we need them alive.
Just for info: Some more info on our gallant heros:
http://www.indiatoday.com/itoday/19990830/defence.html&SET=T

[mbamal]

There is an imminent need to modernize the forces..India 400 MiG 21s are not air-worthy..Tanks are not battleworthy...India lacks any armoured carriers..and survelliance equipment..theres hardly any intelligence network in enemy countries....

Fortunately Indian army is an army of volunteers..what they lack in hardware...they make up for it with their courage and enthu..

But technological edge is what ultimately matters..

[abhishek]

Except Bangla liberation war in 1971 we never followed basic tenets of military campaign.As pointed out this perfectly fits into 2500 year old pattern:Caught unaware by enemy and butchered to his pleasure.
There are two aspects of military planning:one during peacetime when we build on our resources and develop war doctrine ,second during war where we first establish clear political objectives and reason of going to war.Indian defence establishment fails on both accounts. Our weapon procurement is reactionary in nature , thoroughly bureaucratic and prolonged process. Time and again we were confused with our objectives and we were forced into war.
Inspite of fighting five major wars in 57 years of her history India hasnt learnt the lessons. As mentioned to save best and bravest we need shewdest and smartest people planning it and thats where we lose it.

[rkumar]

In any war its the surprise factor which decides the fate of war more than anything. If one can work our a strategy which is inconceivable by the otherside, that weighs more than anything. To prove my point;

1. Look at 9/11 attacks..no one ever imagined that the attacks will come that way...

2. American never thought that Japanese will come all the way and bomb perale Harbour.

3. India never thought Chinese will cross over Himalayas and attack India.

4. Mughals never thought that India can be attacked via sea rutes..and this is how British ruled the world. Technology and surprise both make the real deciding factor. Technology alone can not take too far..

5. Ravan never thought Lanka can can be reached by crossing the sea...

Moral of the story is that one has to think beyond conventions and should be willing to use the ultimate weapons..

Americans have all the technology in the world but till date they have not won any sigle war after WWII. All they have done is just created the mess where ever they went and in all cases came back home with bleeding noses..

Rajendra

[abhishek]

Anuj Kumar (Jul 12, 2004 12:48 p.m.):
I also think the same, In one month Kargil War ~400 soldier died. Less than 100 American soldier died before Iraq collapsed. Technology seems to be one major factor.

My guess is that these two are too different scenarios to be compared ,terrain , political atmosphere was different. Given kind of military advantage(in numbers and assets) US had over erstwhile iraqi army my take is even 100 deaths are blot on US army. As far as Kargil is concerned I am not sure given similar battle scenario US army would have fought the way indians did.

[jagmohan]

Dear All,

The topic is so vast that I will have to write a book to even try and start discussing it. However, what I shall do is to randomly answer some of the questions raised.

First and foremost it must be understood that we as a nation have never invaded another nation (some forays into Tibet by Zorawar Singh and Younghusband notwithstanding). Our ethos has been to 'Live and let live'. The 'Geeta Saar' is truly appliocable to our Armed Forces and that's why Soldier's carry out orders and don't 'Analyse', because if they start analysing on the battlefield, God save this country.

There was a point made that we are a big Zero in strategy. I want you all to understand that strategy flows out from somethnig that is called 'Doctrine'. And Doctrines are to be spelt out by the Political Leadership after taking into consideration 'N' number of factors including available weapons, resources, political aims and gains, enemy, friends and foes etc. After you have given a Doctrine to the Nation, the Military draws out the Strategy of achieveing the Doctrines and then gets involved into evolving something called 'Operational Plans'. These are basically palcement of forces, equipment and reserves towards fulfillment of 'Operational Plans'. After this is done the Army formations get 'Tactically Deployed'.

I am sure I have confused you all. But the fact is that our 'Political Leadership' has so far not given a Doctrine to the Nation so far. Therefore let us not talk about the steps that should follow the 'Doctrine'. For everyone's information, the Indian Army, presumably after getting fed up, decided to lay down 'Doctrines' for themselves and last month all senior officers met at the HQ of Army Training Command at Shimla. Let us hope they come out with something practical.

Let me now come to India having fought few wars after Independence. The 1971 war was described by Kissinger as 'Riot control with Tanks'. In my view India has fought isolated battles and is yet to fight a 'WAR'. War is when the full force of a nation's might is applied on the adversary. War can be short and protracted. We have had Israel decimating its Arab neighbours in 1967 in just six days. We have also had Americans trying to win over the Vietcong for years. I am sure we all understand the difference between a Battle and War. Even the so called 1962 War with China was not a war. Even the Air Forces of both countries remained unused.

Now coming to Kargil. I have always called it a shameful incident. By no means it undermines the sacrifice of our brave young officers and soldiers. But I say so because it could have been avoided had few senior officers (two Generals and a couple of Brigadiers and Colonels) who were supposed to be doing their job, done their job. Having made the mistake of lowering our guard down and allowing the Pakistani commandos to come and occupy almost impregnable heights, only Indian Army could have fought so bravely and retaken the heights. It is a different matter that the Politicians took maximum advantages and gave a spin to this battle. But one thing was clear to the soldiers who sacrificed their lives, that
they were fighting for a 'Just Cause' and that was enough for them to fight on.

Technology Matters? Yes and No. If technology had mattered then we would have had outstanding victory for the US in Korea, Vietnam, Somalia, Iraq and so on. What matters is an intelligent mix of technology (not over dependence on it) and Guts. And the bottom line is that the cause must be just.

A small example of technology vs guts. A World Commando competition was held in Botswana (I am not sure about the country but it was in South Africa) about two years back. All nations sent their commando teams to participate including US, UK, Russia, Germany, France, Australia and others. There were almost 50 odd nations participating. Indian Army was represented by 10 PARA COMMANDO, then commanded by a JAT (he is a member of JATLAND). You know which teams got the top two spots. Why do you think? Of
course the Indians came first and second. The team leader of the team that came first is presently posted as Adjutant of National Defence Academy at Pune.

Just before Attack on TOLOLING, the brave Jawans of 2 RAJPUTANA RIFLES were praying in the Mandir. After the 'Aarti' the JAWANS were sort of trying to overcome the fear of the unknown by joking around. Humor is so very important in such situations. One Jawan asked the Pandat "Panditji, mera haath dekh ke kucch baata". Pandit Said "Bhai paisa bahut hai". Another Jawan commented "Re Pandat, nu bhi bataa de uk u pissa mare pachhe milega ek maran te pahley". Such are the Soldiers of our Army and thank God they are still so simple and sacrifice their lives on the orders of their superiors.

I am sure members will have many comments to make.

Regards,

Lt Col JS Malik (Retd)

[jagmohan]

Dear All,

Pasting another article that appeared in the Tribune today.

---------------------------------------------
Point 5353 still in Pakistan’s possession

India’s Kargil agenda is incomplete

by Gen Ashok K. Mehta (retd)

Following the leak of an internal Army report on Kargil to the media last month, a number of issues related to Operation Vijay and Operation Parakram were thrown up again, notably the incomplete story of Point 5353 in Dras. Until the 1971 war, hill feature Point 13620 (height in feet) overlooking Kargil town and the Shingo river valley was the most celebrated and severely fought-over hillock. Twice, once before and once during the 1965 war, Point 13620 was wrested from Pakistan at a heavy cost, and both times it was returned. In 1971 it was recaptured, but this time retained by the Indian Army. Since then both sides have indulged in creeping operations to improve their fighting positions along the LoC in Kargil.
The celebrity status of Point 13620 was usurped by Point 5353 (17,600 feet) in the neighbouring Dras sector. The bulk of the intrusions and encroachments have been in the Dras, Kargil and Batalik sectors since the Kashmir war started in 1947. Pakistan made its biggest foray of intrusions in the spring of 1999 in this sector. It was a tactically well-conceived operation but a strategic blunder. General Jahangir Karamat and General Talat Masood of Pakistan have admitted that Kargil was a mistake. Nowhere in the history of warfare has an army fought against such heavy odds at such forbidding heights and under severe political constraints (not to cross the LoC) as the Indian Army did during Operation Vijay. While the battles for Tiger Hill, Tololing and other heights have been told many times, the full story of Point 5353 hasn't.
Point 5353 is the summit of pinnacles on the watershed in the Dras sector. It is flanked by two other heights — Points 5240 and 5165 — all on the LoC. Its colossal domination of the Dras Bowl and Sandow valley was achieved by the Pakistan Army, cleverly using the two south-facing ridge lines emanating from it and paralysing the movement in Dras. It was heights like 5100, 4700 and 4875 on these ridge lines, immortalised during Kargil, that required the best infantry in the world to reclaim these awesome mountains. Winning back these two ridge lines virtually ended the Kargil war.
At the end of the war, local commanders had agreed that neither army would occupy Points 5240, 5165 and 5353 through which passed the LoC. None of these was ever with the Indian Army. Nor were these at the time in Pakistani possession. But once Brig Surinder Singh and other officers, removed from command, accused the Army of losing Point 5353 to Pakistan (among other derelictions of command) the DGMO had to go public about the status of Point 5353. An unsavoury controversy followed. The present Army Chief, Gen N. C. Vij, was the DGMO. On August 11, 2000, he issued a Press release with elaborate notes and maps asserting that Point 5353 had never been under Indian occupation.
An unintended faux pas on January 1, 2001, by the Press Information Bureau was the release of a photograph showing then Defence Minister George Fernandes atop Point 5353. This compounded the controversy and resulted in the sacking of the official responsible for the mistake. And so, a cloud continued to hang over Point 5353, while surreptitious battles for hill points continued. One such occurred towards the end of October 1999 when units of 8 Mountain Division seized Points 5240 (and subsequently 5165 but not 5353) apparently to forestall Pakistani occupation.
Taking Points 5240 and 5165 was not difficult, keeping them was tough. The mystery was over not taking Point 5353. It appears the unit asked to do so said it was impossible to get there. But Pakistan had breached the local commanders' agreement and turned Point 5353 into a rope-maintained permanent post.
The second phase of the Point 5353 story started during Operation Parakram which commenced on December 13, 2001, following the terrorist attack on Parliament. By then the area north and east of Zojila Pass, including Leh, had been upgraded into a new Corps Zone from a divisional sector. Parakram had opened a window of opportunity in the Kargil sector for the new 14 Corps to complete the Army's unfinished agenda for the Kargil war: seize Point 5353. While throughout April and May 2002, Point 5353 was pulverised with metal from Bofors guns, sometimes 10,000 rounds a day, Concourse missiles, cargo ammunition and air defence guns in direct fire, by May-end, Point 5070, a pivotal feature about 10 km west of Point 5353, was quietly seized in a brilliant stealth operation. The post was named Balwan after the Jat regiment that took it. Balwan had turned the flank of Pakistani defences in the Dras sector. The Indian Army now had a grand view and domination of the Gultari valley through which Pakistani posts are maintained in Dras.
The Pakistan Army used to occupy Point 5070 as a summer post. Its surprise loss drew furious reaction and several counter-attacks, which resulted in heavy Indian casualties. An incensed General Musharraf removed both the Pakistan GoC and Brigade Commander for losing a post and a new Force Commander, Northern Areas, was also appointed.
The seizure of Point 5070 was a good diversion while all hell was being let loose on Point 5353 in preparation for the assault. On June 10 an Indian patrol managed to creep into Point 5353 and found several wounded soldiers crying for help. D-Day was fixed for June 17. The Northern Army Commander, Lt-Gen R.K. Nanavati, flew into Delhi with the final plan and for the green signal. US Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage beat him to it. A few days earlier, he had brought to Delhi from Islamabad General Musharraf's pledge, in his words: "To end cross-border terrorism permanently, visibly, irreversibly and to the satisfaction of India." Mr George Fernandes said "no" to General Nanavati.
The rock-and-boulder-strewn Point 5353 is thus still in Pakistan's possession, leaving unfinished the Army's Kargil agenda. Like India's Bana post in Siachen, Pakistan has fixed ropes to reach the top as it is battered by direct firing guns from Indian posts on either side at Point 5240 and Point 5165 --- that is till the ceasefire on November 26 last year. Point 5353 will be better remembered as a stone quarry than a strategic perch.


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[anilkc]

Lt Col Jagmohan Malik (Retd):
The topic is so vast that I will have to write a book to even try and start discussing it.

I think its a great idea...write a book.

I have seen and read a few books on indian wars. Some by indians and some by foriengers. Both of them give a very different perspective. Most of the books either have what happened politically...who said what and when and filled with ideology or if on war...who fought whome on what day. What would be an interesting reading is an account (official and from interviews with actual players), analysis of it, what would have been a better option on that day, hwo it would have happened if the same scenario repeated today, how it should be fought in future. Analysis of it from a different (non military) perspective...like applying modern mgmt theory to it, etc.
There are many military men in this forum and I hope they can pool together there thoughts and come up with something.

[anilkc]

From the posts so far, I can assume that we all agree that:
1) Indian soldiers are brave and the best
2) Yet, we do not command overwhelming military superiority
3) We have a problem the way armed forces are used

Now, the next step should:
1) establish a meachanism to find the problem areas, discuss it and propose a solution
2) how best to get the proposal heard and finally implemented

Maybe, the first step should be to establish a doctrine as Lt Col sahab indicated.

Any suggestions on this?

[anujkumar]

This might be a digression:

I am studying "Operation Research". The term came in the existance in second world war, when US armed forces used extensive quantitative modes to make militry strategy. One specific example was "how to hit Nazi U boat from fighter planes". There is a very academic journel name "Naval Logistic: funded by US navy. Lot's of hardcore research goes in to planning operation for most western armed forces. The point being "planning and strategy" are very scientific tasks.

Are indian doing something like that?

I recently came across a very technical book on "Priority Queues" by N.K. Jaiswal written in 1960, while He was working for DRDO. I was very surprised to know such advanced work being done in India. He was chairman of "system analysis" or something division of DRDO. He also got "best scientist" award from Indian govt. He has written 6 books, some academic some on "OR" for Indian armed forces. They devised many war game model for indian prespective. But I don't think armed forces took all that stuff very seriously.

and Sad thing is that the "level" of research in DRDO (specifically in OR) is going steadily down.

Another digression, are Jaiswal Jat? sounds like Jat :)

[anilkc]

Good info Anuj.
I too came across many DRDO scientists and some of them do excellent work. I dont know why we dont "see" the work actually implemented. Maybe secretly the army is doing something.

digression: Jaiswal may be Jats, but a few jaiswals I know are not jats. They are baniyas.
Oswal is another similar sounding surname.

[abhishek]

Anuj Kumar (Jul 13, 2004 10:44 a.m.):

Another digression, are Jaiswal Jat? sounds like Jat :)

Nope, they are banias....mostly from easter UP or bihar.

[anujkumar]

Good, baniyas are doing some good work!


Abhishek Dhama (Jul 13, 2004 12:43 p.m.):

Anuj Kumar (Jul 13, 2004 10:44 a.m.):

Another digression, are Jaiswal Jat? sounds like Jat :)

Nope, they are banias....mostly from easter UP or bihar.

[abhishek]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/776940.cms

[cooljat]

Uncleji,
Namaskar!
Well, I strongly believe that when it comes to endurance or fitness
test, no one yes! No one can beat our army men.
They’re certainly invincible……salutations to all of them!
Btw, could u anvil who’s the admirable officer which was actually
Commanding them & also a fellow Jatland member!
We all should proud on him and should extend our best compliments as well.
So just tell me his name, uncle! Plz!

Bye,

Rock on,
Jit.



Lt Col Jagmohan Malik (Retd) (Jul 13, 2004 01:37 a.m.):

Technology Matters? Yes and No. If technology had mattered then we would have had outstanding victory for the US in Korea, Vietnam, Somalia, Iraq and so on. What matters is an intelligent mix of technology (not over dependence on it) and Guts. And the bottom line is that the cause must be just.

A small example of technology vs guts. A World Commando competition was held in Botswana (I am not sure about the country but it was in South Africa) about two years back. All nations sent their commando teams to participate including US, UK, Russia, Germany, France, Australia and others. There were almost 50 odd nations participating. Indian Army was represented by 10 PARA COMMANDO, then commanded by a JAT (he is a member of JATLAND). You know which teams got the top two spots. Why do you think? Of
course the Indians came first and second. The team leader of the team that came first is presently posted as Adjutant of National Defence Academy at Pune.


Regards,

Lt Col JS Malik (Retd)